# What Is going On With Him?



## omega59 (Feb 18, 2009)

A few months ago he developed a permanently open mouth and it will not close. There is nothing in his mouth that i can tell but he can still eat. Now that time has passed he started acting like this. Floating by the corner, looking weak. i also want to mention sometimes when he does swim out it's like his tail is heavy and he is trying to keep his head up.

YouTube - Clown Fish Sick 1
YouTube - Clown Fish Sick 2
PICT0001-1.flv video by omega59 - Photobucket

30gal tank, running 1 year
2 clown fish
1 royal dotty back
stats are fine just tested, i also did a water change.
liverock
powerheads 2
heater 76-80F 26c or so


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Looks like some sort of damage to internal organs, based on the fish behavior. With no physical symptoms, this is my best guess.


----------



## omega59 (Feb 18, 2009)

how do i know for sure, and what do i do now?


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

You do nothing, because you have no solid evidence to draw a conclusion. Continue to observe closely for other symptoms. Honestly, your fish will probably perish in the near future without showing any additional signs of disease. Sorry, but i've seen this situation dozens, if not hundreds of times. Trust me, it is better to not medicate than to medicate without cause.


----------



## cerianthus (Jul 13, 2008)

Pasfur said:


> You do nothing, because you have no solid evidence to draw a conclusion. Continue to observe closely for other symptoms. Honestly, your fish will probably perish in the near future without showing any additional signs of disease. Sorry, but i've seen this situation dozens, if not hundreds of times. Trust me, it is better to not medicate than to medicate without cause.


Absolutely!
If want to try this method for what its worth, you can try keeping the fish in large, clear hang on the tank rim container(used to use Superking filter box). Make many many holes on the sides of container for good flow of water inside. Then hang this inside the tank so little isolation/penalty box w/i the same tank thus same water and same temp. Good flow is important. Use hot screwdriver tip to punch a holes, not a dirll bit which can crack hard plastic.

Dont know how long you had or when this fish arrived to lfs from long long transit unless captive bred.

Usually when fish are shipped, they are shipped in very small dime bags with tiny tiny amount of water. I've seen newly arrived fish being dumped into deep tank where fish will just swim down to bottom which can develop bladder problems/death.
I noticed the mortality rate dropped drastically when taking few factors into consideration when acclimating/transferring fish to new display tank.

I am not saying this is the cause/reason for your fish behavior but better than not trying any. At least in the box, less pressure exerted on the fish since box is hung on the rim.

Saved lots of fish using this box concept in treating/acclimating/isolating/ICU/Recovery otherwise may have just perished..

Hope things get better.


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

cerianthus, this is an interesting discussion. Can you elaborate further? Are you suggesting that the water pressure a fish experiences when swimming to the bottom of the aquarium could cause these mysterious bladder problems? 

This is a new idea to me. I've never heard it discussed. Any thing you can share would be great.


----------



## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

From the sound of the original problem, it appears to be neurological damage from something or other. As Pasfur has already said, there is no medication to cure such a thing. The best you can do is to let it be or euthanize it when it is obviously too far gone to avoid suffering. There are so many things that can cause a neurological problem in a fish that it would be pointless to try guessing what caused it.

As for the water pressure question... I would also like to hear more on this theory. That one intrigues me because if that were truly the case, wouldn't the air pressure during flight time when shipped also have an adverse affect, and wouldn't it be more wide spread and not need a deep tank to trigger it? Also, what is considered deep? 

The description of releasing the fish and having it go right to the bottom does not sound like swim bladder damage from pressure changes, it sounds more like extreme stress and improper acclimation procedures.

I have worked in the pet store industry for many yrs, am familiar with shipping and packing procedures. While death rates tend to be higher in marine fish than in freshwater fish, the size bags being used and pressure changes are not the issues causing it. Dirty water, lack of O2, stress, temp changes, box handling... those all play a part as to how the fish arrive. From there it is acclimation and stress, water chemistry changes, and more temp fluctuations that cause such severe stress that many fish end up sick or dead. If wholesaler is sending out expensive animals like that and the death rates are high, that wholesaler wouldn't have much if any business left. A typical saltwater order for our store consisted of about 20 boxes of animals at a time. In each box it was anywhere from 8 - 15 animals per box. The average doa rate was 2 - 3 animals, usually specialty shrimps and other known sensitive animals that had no arrival guarantee to start with. After proper acclimation procedures into proper environments/tanks, the death rate was usually nil... or very low, maybe another 2 - 3 animals during the first week, and those usually because there were issues with getting them to eat.

I don't mean to sound argumentative, but that theory of pressure and swim bladder issues doesn't make much sense to me based on many yrs of experience. I look forward to hearing more.

Best of luck with the clownfish...


----------



## cerianthus (Jul 13, 2008)

Pasfur said:


> cerianthus, this is an interesting discussion. Can you elaborate further? Are you suggesting that the water pressure a fish experiences when swimming to the bottom of the aquarium could cause these mysterious bladder problems?
> 
> This is a new idea to me. I've never heard it discussed. Any thing you can share would be great.


 
Have you ever heard of decompression chamber being used for fish from deep? Certain fish are not just out of our reach because it is hard to catch but more so on the cost involved in bringing up alive.

You seemed to know lot about fish for me to think that you may have some experiences in the industry.
But have you ever unpacked fish shipped directly to you from far such as Indo-Pacific, SriLanka, or Red Sea, Brazil, etc. 

There are known facts of fish anatomy, physiology, etc but I know for fact that depending how fish are handled/acclimated after long journey will dictate their survival/longevity in captivity.

Let's say for example, If I take 500 GBR from SE Asia where they have been in the tiny tiny individual dime bags with drops of water (yes, just enough to kepp them moist) and split them in two different group randomly. 
With one group, I would acclimated in the table where water level will not exceed 1" high. The other group, I would let the water reached to higher (12" or more). 
What I found thru over 40 yrs of playing with fish was that the Gradually Acclimated (be it depth, pH, GH, KH, temp,etc etc) Group have substantially greater survival rate and longevity than Group acclimated with abrupt/sudden changes.

Even with s/w, same results. More efforts given, higher chance of survival.

I've seen many fish die from expose to bright light when taken out of boxes or sudden massive vibrations (tap on the acclimating table/glass) thus used to do this in dark room with specific dim light bulbs (like in dark room for photography) and no one but me. No exception!!

Gradual changes is the key imo in successful fish keeping including water changes (smaller but more frequent water changes are less stressful on fish than massive pwc at once) be it f/w or s/w.

No different from us, imo. lol! Less stress, less energy wasted or should I say less burden on their bodily functions!. 

Hope this helped a bit asfur. i meant Pasfur, I must have been thinking of Asfur angel from Red Sea. LOL!


----------



## cerianthus (Jul 13, 2008)

bettababy said:


> From the sound of the original problem, it appears to be neurological damage from something or other. As Pasfur has already said, there is no medication to cure such a thing. The best you can do is to let it be or euthanize it when it is obviously too far gone to avoid suffering. There are so many things that can cause a neurological problem in a fish that it would be pointless to try guessing what caused it.
> 
> As for the water pressure question... I would also like to hear more on this theory. That one intrigues me because if that were truly the case, wouldn't the air pressure during flight time when shipped also have an adverse affect, and wouldn't it be more wide spread and not need a deep tank to trigger it? Also, what is considered deep?
> 
> ...


I always have learn more by keeping my ears, eyes and nose but most importantly my mind opened.
Thus i honestly welcome more opinions/ideas where I will learn something new AND I HAVE.

Fish being shipped from local wholesaler is one thing but when 60 purple tangs are bagged individually and shipped from Red Sea /same amt of yellow tangs from Hawaii directly to you (p/u at Airport thru Custom, Wildlife), it is different ball game all together.
Even in f/w where fish are shipped in one large bag/box, how one acclimate them will determine the outcome at wholesale/retail and even in you tank, imo.

Dirty water, O2 content, temp of water in the bag are my least concern. If fish are alive in the bag, i am more concerned with how I would act (prepare new water, pH, temp, prepare acclimating tables, depth, etc) with given situations (the quality, temp of water in the bag, etc) which will have more direct influences on their survival rate. 

I have seen enough fish crushed to death or suffer greatly due to not taking the depth into consideration when unpacked/acclimated by someone who first opend transhipped fish. Same types of fish from same shipper across the ocean but great difference in results or should I say more stable and hgher survival rates.

Again this is from my experiences and also knowledge obtained from science background.

Hope someone can benefit from my trial and error.


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Cer...

I'm still not on board with this. I'm not disagreeing, but I'm not there either. Most LFS aren't even using aquariums, just holding tank which are less than 12'' deep. What sort of systems were you all running? What other factors were involved?


----------



## cerianthus (Jul 13, 2008)

Pasfur said:


> Cer...
> 
> I'm still not on board with this. I'm not disagreeing, but I'm not there either. Most LFS aren't even using aquariums, just holding tank which are less than 12'' deep. What sort of systems were you all running? What other factors were involved?


 
It's OK
I had 30" deep. 36" deep reef tank along with many different size s/w, f/w tanks on the rack in my fish rooms.I had friend who had custom built 5' deep reeef tank. Well that tank needed snorkeling gear if want to reach the bottom, LOL.

Even 12" would be too much for newly unpacked fish but again it all depends on each individual fish and how well acclimated. Acclimation process of newly arrived fish which were dosed with anesthetic should be very slow process to yield high survival rates. 

Again I was referring to the pssibilities of lfs mishandling newly arrived fish which were exposed to 1/2" to 1" of water depth in the bags for few days.
If lfs were to keep the newly arrived fish for week(S) before displaying the fish for sale( which I believe they should until well adjusted in captive tanks), most likely lfs would suffer higher losses as the complications derived from mishandling along with stress from being shipped in conditions given in the bag may begin to develop with time. 
If one has handles as many fish I have, should know wha tfish ships better than others. Oh! yes. Certain fish dont ship that well with a method presently used. If shipped in larger bag w/ more water, costly would increase drastically.
SO it is hit and miss with certain fish. 

It is not easy to determine exactly what may have contributed to yield complication/death without high tech lab equipments, and even with such, it may not always result in definitive answers.

Thus I have came to conclusion that by eliminating any possibilities which may cause more burden on the fish to my best ability, I have always yielded better results.

If I was to acclimated new fish obtained from 12" deep tank at lfs to tank 24" or deeper tank, believe me when I would tell you that I would acclimated the new fish not just ot new water but to depth by slowly lowering the temporary cages gradually (DIY acrylic/plexi glass cage with many holes/grids for circulation).
I also never used the net to catch fish but rather chased them into clear container when removing thus fish are always in the water. I also noticed that when fish are netted out of water, hey may loose their natural slime coating since wiggling/rubbing themeselve in the net and no mater how soft the netting materilas may be, it may also damages the prorective coating of the eyes or eye itself.
Has any one ever noticed newly s/w developing cloudy eyes after few day of acquiring? 
I have seen and heard of many.

A small things that you can do for fish, fish will will return the favor by staying healthy, IMO.


----------



## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Wow, where to begin....

Let me first begin by saying that some of this information is confusing because of how it is presented. I am concerned because there are many inexperienced hobbyists who will be reading this thread, and they may be presented with many issues and even fear of keeping a marine tank due to misinterpretation of what has been written here.

The first thing I would like to point out and go back to is the issues of compression/decompression. For starters, the number of aquarium fishes (saltwater or freshwater) that go through decompression upon collection is very few. Yes, our store has worked with trans shippers, and I am very familiar with the the procedures and issues. (our favorite to work with was Pacific Island Imports)

The swim bladder issues that were mentioned in connection with compression/decompression is what has me so thrown off here. What is being described with the swim bladder issues & sinking to the bottom is not a compression problem, but instead is what we refer to as pH shock... 

In mentioning the physiological functions of the fish I would like to explain pH shock and what actually happens inside the fish. When a fish has been in a bag for such an extended length of time, waste accumulates in the water (the smaller the amount of water in the bag the higher the waste concentration), which over that time drops the pH of the water inside the bag. When that fish arrives at the wholesaler, lfs, or etc. the tank that the fish will be moved to has a drastically different pH than the water contained in the bag. (We have tracked pH in the bag water over the yrs, and some of those levels drop as low as 7.0 due to the length of time the fish has been in that bag) There are many different acclimation procedures used by different lfs's. When acclimation is done improperly there is a rapid shif in pH which affects the nervous system of the fish, and in many cases, impedes the fish's ability to absorb O2 through the gills. It also can impede the nervous system's ability to regulate gas exchange in and out of the swim bladder by way of circulatory system (blood stream). If there is not enough gas in the swim bladder and the fish cannot add more to it, this causes the fish to sink... which is all regulated by the nervous system. If there is too much gas in the swim bladder and the fish is not able to diffuse it out through the blood system, this can cause the fish to float. Stress is also a large factor in this physiological process. The key is to make the acclimation of the fish as least stressful as possible by making sure the pH of the water is close enough, salinity is close enough, and temps are close enough to the tank water.

While I can't deny that in some fish the compression/decompression may be an issue, I also have to then recognize that those issues are primarily something the collectors are dealing with, and as said, in very few species. The differences between 1 inch, 12 inches, 36 inches, or even 5 feet of water for these animals is not going to be what causes the rapid change in your success rates. It is also important to recognize that if the collectors are having issues with compression/decompression in the animals they collect, they would have no business. Wholesalers and retailers are not going to do business with anyone who has such a high death rate in their animals because that causes loss of business & money for wholesalers and retailers alike. 

What IS going to be the difference in your success rates is the proper acclimation when it comes to water chemistry, salinity, stress, temp fluctuations, etc. which we have described in depth here already. 

The mention of the need for a dark room and lack of people during acclimation is also something that is not practical for a wholesaler, retailer, etc... nor is the ability to quarantine these animals for weeks at a time before offering them for sale. 

In the retail industry, each day those fish are in the store tanks it costs the store money. The list of expenses is long... food, water, salt, electricity, medications, and the manual labor required to care for these animals all costs money, not to mention the amount of tank space these animals would require. While spending all of that money the store is not making any money, thus the retail cost of these animals would have to greatly differ. A $10 fish would suddenly cost $100 to make up for the extra costs involved in the lenghty quarantine. It is for this reason that hobbyists should have a quarantine tank on hand at home, and any new fish should first spend 2 - 3 weeks in quarantine before adding it to the main tank. 

One other point that deserves recognition here is that many saltwater fish, because they are still being wild caught, do come to the retail industry with various illnesses and parasites, and not all of these illnesses and parasites can be properly identified (or even noticed at all) within the first couple of weeks the fish is in a lfs tank. Some illnesses and parasites are masked by the stress factors involved in shipping and retail tanks, some of them simply don't manifest obvious signs until in an advanced stage. This is another reason why all hobbyists should maintain a quarantine system at home.

In reference to the slime coat and netting the fish... I have to say that it would take awful rough handling to actually remove the slime coat from a fish. A fish's body produces slime coat naturally as protection against illness, disease, parasites, and stress. When in a stressful situation the fish will shed some of this slime coat, but the body is continuously producing more. Some fish have heavier slime coating than others, and some fish will expel more than others depending on their circumstances & species. The importance in moving a fish is not as much based on net vs cup as it is to the amount of stress the fish experiences during capture. If a fish is being chased endlessly it is going to suffer severe stress, be it a cup or a net situation... which will result in the loss of some of the slime coating, among other things. The problems of cloudy eyes are seldom due to being handled in a net, but are most often caused by illness and parasite issues. One of the most common is flukes & protozoans. 

While I wholeheartedly agree to many things that have been said in the course of this thread, such as the issues of proper acclimation in all fish, saltwater and freshwater... there are other parts of this thread that made no practical sense to me due to the way it was presented. I hope I was able to clarify some things with this post and able to reassure those who read this thread that it is many factors that are responsible for the high death rates in our aquarium fishes, but most of those issues are easily resolved with proper acclimation and quarantine procedures. 

Our death rate here in fish here is very low because we take all of these things into account and take appropriate steps to make the transistion our animals go through as easy as is possible. We have many methods of acclimation we use, and it varies depending on time availability, species of animals, the way the animals were packed and shipped, where they are coming from, time of year/weather, and various other things. 

One thing I would like to say in finishing is that the clownfish in question by the author of this thread is not suffering from issues relating to this content as far as we can tell. With the information that was provided, it sounds as if this fish suffered neurological damage somehow, and for that, there is no cure, no treatment, no recourse of any kind that would be of any help to the fish. While that is a sad thing, it is fact that sometimes these things happen and are out of our control, and it doesn't mean there was mishandling of any kind involved. 

I apologize for the length of my post but there was alot of material to cover here. I would strongly suggest that if this discussion of acclimation, compression/decompression, etc continues, it should be done in a thread of its own so as not to hijack someone else's thread.


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Ok, at this point there is an honest disagreement. If I were to throw in my experience with acclimation procedures, there would be yet a third and differing view on the subject. As such, I agree we should end the acclimation discussion at this point, unless someone wants to open a new thread.

However, there is a common take away from this thread for the reader, which is to use a Quarantine tank for EVERY fish purchase, and have a period of careful observation and conditioning of your newly acquired fish before adding it to your display. You have no idea what physical or other illnesses your new fish may have, and should never subject your display to the possible risks.


----------

