# A confused beginner need your help!!!



## Maccar (Jan 26, 2009)

Hello all, I purchased a 4ft tank on 23/12/08 and set it up the same day, the guy at the shop told me to come in the next day and stock up with fish!!!! Being new to the hobby i thought it was great i could get going straight away. I stocked the aquarium with 15 fish straight away. Now im sure you all know whats happened now. My tank is now 33 days old and im struggling to get it cycled. I havent done any water changes yet and the only thing i have added is two full treatments of Cycle which doesnt seem to have done anything. Of course when i set the tank up i used Aqua Plus water conditioner and Showmaster Water conditioner salts as advised by the shop. I have lost two guppys since but the other fish seem ok. I suspect however that they will not last much longer in the current conditions. The reason im writing this is because i have done alot of reading in the past few days about what to do and everywhere has a different conflicting answers. The only thing i have changed is im feeding the fish much more sparringly. Ok so what im asking is what would you experienced aquarists do now. Water changes, Ammo Lock, Stress Zyme, Vacume Gravel? Any advice would be muchly appreciated.

Here are my current stats.

Fish As At 24/1/09
5 Neon Tetras
2 Guppys (2 males) 
1 Silver Shark
2 Balloon Molly
1 Pearl Gourami
2 Bronze Catfish

Levels As At 24/1/09 
PH 7.3
Ammonia 1.9
Nitrite 0.0
Nitrate 1.0


The ammonia has just gradually climbed up to the level its at now. And the water seems to be getting more cloudy.

My setup is.

4 foot tank.
Hood and lights. (Only running the lights for about 2 hours a day)
Undergravel filter.
4 riser tubes on filter. (These had carbon cartridges on them but i was told to take them off so i did about two weeks ago)

The riser tubes are just under the top off the water and the air pump running them is on low.


----------



## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

welcome to the forum.
small water changes daily are your best bet, if you can return the fish to the store of purchase (even if you can get store credit for a later date)


----------



## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Were it me, I would purchase the API freswater master kit if you don'y already have one. The test kits that use strips are not all that accurate. I would stop using salts in the aquarium. I would not vaccum the gravel and would continue to feed fish sparingly maybe once a day. For right now,, I would change 10 percent of the water and wait 24 hours and test for ammonia again. Do try and get the API test kit. Watch the fish closely. If they appear stressed (swimming near the surface, rapid gill movement) perform another 10 percent water change. Have no expierience with the water conditioner you are using but I would look for water conditioner such as PRIME which is what many or most use or AMQUEL+ which is another good product. One of these is all you should need in the aquarium. No stress this, cycle that, or ammolock. Some of these products may alter water tests and some in my view are useless. Don't add anymore fish, don't overfeed , don't clean anything in the tank. Your tank is still going through nitrogen cycle or maturing. Too much food or over cleaning the tank and or gravel at this point will only cause trouble. I would also return the shark. They get way too large for most aquariums.Remember,,, If fish look stressed ,,change 10 percent of the water . if after 24 hours or sooner if fish still display stress,, perform another water change. ALWAYS add water conditioner to the new water BEFORE it goes in the aquarium. Don't stress about cloudy water it will clear on it's own once the tank has completed the nitrogen cycle and assuming you do not overfeed the fish. DO get the API freshwater master kit if you can or take a sample of water from your tank to fish store and ask them to test it. If they use strips the results could be false . Might be a good thing to call them or other stores until you find one that uses test that requires drops of liquid. Post your results soon as you get em and we can go from there. In the meantime DON"T add any chemicals other than dechlorinator or water conditioner and try and find some PRIME or AMQUEL+.;-)


----------



## Maccar (Jan 26, 2009)

Thanks for your quick reply's. I already do have the API master kit your refering to and the results i have are from it. I will return the shark, im very unhappy with the shop as not only did they misadvise me to stock the aquarium straight away but they also told me the shark is a good fish to have in there! But as you have made me aware and i have also read it recently that they grow to big for a 4ft tank. Ill do the 10% water change tonight and post results tomorrow.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

With an ammonia level of 1.9ppm you need to do more aggressive water changes. At that level you need to consider 50% changes once a day with dechlorinated water until the ammonia level is below 0.25ppm. At that point smaller water changes are advisable.


----------



## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

If ammonia levels are accurate then fish are stressed as it is. Large water changes that suddenly change the conductivity and consequently the osmoregulation of fish will in my view,, only further stress the fish and could lead to osmotic shock. I would always suggest small frequent water changes over large ones for that reason.As stated,, Water changes of 10 percent may be needed more frequently if fish still appear stressed. A good dechlorinator along with not overfeeding will also help tons.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

A 10% water change is not going to do much about high ammonia levels and while it will be a shock to the fish, in the long term I'd be more worried about the effects of sitting in the high ammonia levels for that long. It'll take 20 water changes to get the ammonia down to something resembling acceptable for fish-in-cycling. Even doing two or three a day you're looking at more than a week to get the ammonia levels down and that's assuming no additional ammonia production which is certainly not going to be the case. A 50% water change will take 3 water changes to get things down to an acceptable level assuming no additional ammonia production. Even at once a day you're down good and low in less than a half the time as doing 10% changes three times a day. If that's too aggressive 25% changes can get you down below 0.25ppm in 8 water changes.

I agree that it'll be a bit of a shock, at least the first water change at 50%, but in the long run I think it's more important to get the ammonia down immediately to a level it can be maintained at with less aggressive water changes than it is to avoid shocking them but leave them in very high ammonia water for an extended period.


----------



## Twistersmom (Dec 9, 2008)

More conflicting information for you! I agree with Tyyrlyn. If it where my tank, I would set my goal at keeping ammonia at .25ppm or under. Sometime you are going to have a nitrite build up, want to keep that at or under .25 ppm as well. I would keep using salt till the cycle is complete. I believe it can help protect the fish from high nitrites. I also believe 25% and 50% water changes are a lot easyer on the fish, then living in water with toxic levels. I would also clean the gravel during water changes, having an underground filter, all your fish waste is collecting at the bottom.
From personal experience, I find alot of my fish enjoy large water changes. (sometimes even encouraging mating behavior) It is even reccomended to do a 50% water change for some of the fish I keep. My normal schedule (after cycling) is a 25% water change every week. (add new water same temperature as tank water)
Good luck to you!
Unfortunately most fish store are more interested in a profit than the health of fish.


----------



## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

I shall hope that if OP decides to go for large water change of 50 percent that ammonia levels will drop significantly. I shall also hope the Ph of the new water is lower than that in the tank so as not to make ammonia even more toxic. If i did opt for larger water change initially I would then perform smaller more frequent ones from that point on for reasons already stated. If I decided to vaccum the gravel I would hopeI did not vaccum to the ponit that I destroyed too much beneficial bacteria for it gathers here as well as the filter, and all is needed in maturing or cycling tank. If I decided to continue with adding salt, I would do so with the knowledge that salt does not evaporate or dissipate in the aquarium and can only be removed from the aquarium through water changes using water that contains no salt and that salt content over time, could get to dangerous levels for freshwater fish. In any event,, the water changes will only be as helpful as the dechlorinator being used. Some address ammonia, chlorine and chloramines and the two mentioned earlier would be the ones I;-) would use ..


----------



## Twistersmom (Dec 9, 2008)

I dont think Maccar has a filter the other than the ugf. I think using a hang on filter along with the ugf could be beneficial. It looks like it may be hard to add one though, the way your top is made, and it looks like the tank is seated againt the wall.


----------



## WisFish (Dec 16, 2008)

With the ammonia that high, you have to do at least a 50% water change if not more. I've already done 75% to my cycled tank without any problems. But get that ammonia down as soon as you can. As for gravel vacuuming, you shouldn't have to do that with a tank that's only 1 month old. But it's up to you. Unless you are overfeeding, you can wait 2-3 months to vacuum. But you won't hurt the bacteria if you do.


----------



## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

Having just an undergravel filter I would avoid doing any gravel vacs until the cycle is complete OR do a small area each week. With a UGF the gravel_ is_ your filter and is where the majority of the bacteria live. When you have other filters such as HOB or canisters the bacteria prefer to colonize in the filter because of the higher oxygen content due to the flow of the water through the filter. Although the bacteria will colonize throughout every surface in the tank the majority will be in the filter.

I agree also about the larger water changes. I, like Twistermom, do weekly 30% changes and the fish love it. One thing to check though is the Ph from your tap compared to your tank. If there is a huge difference then that may be a concern. My tap water and tank PH are the same so I've never had to worry about that.


----------



## cerianthus (Jul 13, 2008)

1077 said:


> Were it me, I would purchase the API freswater master kit if you don'y already have one. The test kits that use strips are not all that accurate. I would stop using salts in the aquarium. I would not vaccum the gravel and would continue to feed fish sparingly maybe once a day. For right now,, I would change 10 percent of the water and wait 24 hours and test for ammonia again. Do try and get the API test kit. Watch the fish closely. If they appear stressed (swimming near the surface, rapid gill movement) perform another 10 percent water change. Have no expierience with the water conditioner you are using but I would look for water conditioner such as PRIME which is what many or most use or AMQUEL+ which is another good product. One of these is all you should need in the aquarium. No stress this, cycle that, or ammolock. Some of these products may alter water tests and some in my view are useless. Don't add anymore fish, don't overfeed , don't clean anything in the tank. Your tank is still going through nitrogen cycle or maturing. Too much food or over cleaning the tank and or gravel at this point will only cause trouble. I would also return the shark. They get way too large for most aquariums.Remember,,, If fish look stressed ,,change 10 percent of the water . if after 24 hours or sooner if fish still display stress,, perform another water change. ALWAYS add water conditioner to the new water BEFORE it goes in the aquarium. Don't stress about cloudy water it will clear on it's own once the tank has completed the nitrogen cycle and assuming you do not overfeed the fish. DO get the API freshwater master kit if you can or take a sample of water from your tank to fish store and ask them to test it. If they use strips the results could be false . Might be a good thing to call them or other stores until you find one that uses test that requires drops of liquid. Post your results soon as you get em and we can go from there. In the meantime DON"T add any chemicals other than dechlorinator or water conditioner and try and find some PRIME or AMQUEL+.;-)


I dont mean to give you more conflicting opinions, but tend to agree w/ 1077. Loose all the additives but the dechlorinator. I cant not believe lfs would sell set first timer w/ just UGF, Most lfs will try to add more items to sell. Although can be done, requires patiences and little know-how w/ just UGF. Lots of oldtimers that i learn good amount of knowledge/technique about fish keeping/breeding, used to use just UGF. Have done it myself once gained enough knowledges and know-how.

Do have some questions before i go on.
Your pH is on slightly alkaline. Can you test your tap water for pH to see if your tap is as high. As 1077 mentioned that equilibrium b/n toxic Ammonia (NH3) and non toxic Ammonium ion (NH4+) is pH dependent. As pH goes acidic, more of NH4+ than NH3. I do agree Amoonia is toxic but must understand this concept before doing massive changes. Such massive changes can disturb whatever bio-actvities it took this long to established which in return cause delay in cycling process which in turn will cause unnecessary stress on your livestocks and YOU. I have learned that small and more frequent water changes are way to keep the stablillity of the water. Idea is to keep the water stablized.

Usually tank that is 33 days old should have gone thru first stage, NH3 oxidized to Nitrite (NO2) and be in middle of NO2 spike or decreasing process, NO2 is oxidized to Nitrate (NO3).

I do not know the test log since starting the tank. If you have the record of all the testing it will help to undertand the situation better thus better opinions can be given. Also Since nitrate is registered, I am also wondering that by adding so much additives, you may be getting false/distorted reading on NH3. As 1077 has said, bottles which can help add beneficial bacteria might be the source of sudden NH3 increase.
I do not know Amquel+ but I do know that Ammolock and Amquel used to say on the bottle that w/ these product, you must use NH3 test kit which has 2 reagents (Salicylate Method). W/ Nh3 test kit that has 1 reagent will not give you correct reading.

Taking all these possibilities, dont want to to any massive disturbances to the system such as 50% partial water changes (pwc), gravel vacuuming at this time. Do the test for next few days and post the reading.

Do consider acquiring canister filter if tank is well againt the wall.I am sure you can run intake and return tubing if utilize each back corners. Sooner the better.

Summary: 
1. Post the record of all the testing w/ dates if available
2. Post the reading of tap water.
3. If NH is present/increasing after few small pwc (20-25% ea for few days) w/o using additives (zyme, cycle, etc), consider dropping the pH slightly on new water being added to drop pH in the tank slightly UNLESS you have fish requiring high pH.

For all I know, your tank may have gone thru cycling process but being disturbed/geting false reading due to massive changes/additives, respectively.

Hope this helped rather than confuse you. 
**Dont worry about cloudiness at this point (I call this new tank syndrome) which will go way w/ time. Massive changes can also add to cloudiness.


----------



## Sj45 (Jan 5, 2009)

Do a 25% water change now and continue w/ weekly ones unless your ammonia climbs to .50-.75. Do not add ammo-lock as in the long run, it won't help your tank.

Look into buying a python syphon.


----------



## Maccar (Jan 26, 2009)

Thankyou everyone for your replys, Ok so first thing is, i did a 10% water change last night and this morning the fish seem alot happier and a little of the cloudiness has cleared. Here are the readings from this morning coutesy of the API master kit. 

PH 7.3
Ammonia 1.9
Nitrite 0.0
Nitrate 1.0

As for the history of the tank see below. 
I am getting the general impression that people think water changes are the best way to solve this problem. Thats good ill continue to do 10% daily and keep you all posted with my results. 

Does anyone think i should be trying to bring down the PH to reduce the ammonia potency?

Oh and my tap water Ph tested at 7.2

*Levels As At 4/1/09
*PH 7.4
Ammonia 0.60
Nitrite 0.0
Nitrate 0.5 (Trace)

*Levels As At 6/1/09
*PH 7.1 
Ammonia 0.85
Nitrite 0.0
Nitrate 0.1 (Trace)

*Levels As At 8/1/09
*PH 7.1
Ammonia 0.90
Nitrite 0.0
Nitrate 2.0

*Levels As At 17/1/09
*PH 7.2 
Ammonia 1.8
Nitrite 0.0
Nitrate 0.0

*Levels As At 21/1/09 *Spoke to Mentone Aquarium and they said to start feeding the fish once every 2 days.
PH 7.2 
Ammonia 1.9
Nitrite 0.0
Nitrate 0.0

*Levels As At 22/1/09 *Added 9 capfulls of cycle concentrate (By NUTRAFIN) to try and help tank cycle faster.
Nutrafin Cycle 237mL - The Aquarium Shop Australia See Nutrafin here.
PH 7.3
Ammonia 1.9
Nitrite 0.0
Nitrate 1.0

*Levels As At 24/1/09 
*PH 7.3
Ammonia 1.9
Nitrite 0.0
Nitrate 1.0

*Levels As At 27/1/09 *Did a 10% water change 12 hours before this reading was done.
PH 7.3
Ammonia 1.9
Nitrite 0.0
Nitrate 1.0


----------



## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

I would not mess with the Ph There is not that much difference to be concerned with. My concern is that the water conditioner you are using attacks and detoxifys chlorine and breaks the chloramine bond with ammonia but is relying on biological bacteria to detoxify the ammonia and it's possible that there is not enough bacteria(good kind) to process this ammonia. You must get a dechlorinator that detoxify;s ammonia, chlorine,and chloramines such as PRIME or AMQUEL+ the old regular Amquel will not help. I would continue with 10 MAYBE 20 percent water changes but do try and get dechlorinator such as the two mentioned. My fear is that until you do so ,,the water changes will have little affect . This is why some dechlorinators are not suited for new or cycling tanks . They do not render the ammonia into less toxic ammonium but rather rely as stated on biological filter or bacteria to do it. You got surprisingly good advice on feeding the fish. They will be fine with once every two days feeding until your tank is back under control. Any uneaten food falls to the bottom and only contributes to ammonia development as it begins to rot. As mentioned,, IF you see a bunch of rotting or decaying food on the bottom of the tank you are feeding too much. I would hold off on vaccuming the gravel UNLESS you see a bunch of gunk on the bottom (rotting food ,fish poop) .IF this is visible then lightly vaccuming the surface only.a small area once a week and a different area each time, will help but I would NOT go digging around in the gravel with the vaccum or ,,beneficial bacteria that you need could be destroyed as well and thus make it much harder to get your tank back under control. If you don't see any decaying gunk on the bottom ,(and I didn't see any in photo) then I would not disturb it. Keep us posted.;-)


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

I agree with 1077 here, do not monkey with your pH. It's great as is and moving it around will only add one more thing stressing your fish. Then you'll have to change it back. Just leave it alone. Personally I use Prime for my dechlorinator and I've been very happy with it.


----------



## Maccar (Jan 26, 2009)

Ok so if i was to use the dechlorinator you guys are referring to should i treat the tank to its full volume now or just the new water im putting in on my 10% water changes.

Todays values are

*Levels As At 28/1/09
*PH 7.2
Ammonia 1.9
Nitrite 0.0
Nitrate 3.0

A couple of questions for those using The API Master Test Kit. When you hold the test tube up against the card do you press the tube firmly against the card or hold it slightly away. The reason i ask is the shade of colour changes a little in either position. As little as a 1/4" gap changes the readings a bit. At the moment i am holding the tubes firmly against the card. 

I was also wondering how my Nitrate reading can be climbing when there has never been any presence of Nitrite? Doesnt this contradict the cycling process?


----------



## Twistersmom (Dec 9, 2008)

Only need to add dechlorinator when doing the water changes.

Check your tap water. Some people have nitrates in their tap water.

Matching color with card??? Good question!!! lol. Some of the colors on the card look the same to me. The lighting in the room also changes the color of the water in the test tube. I just make a good guess.


----------



## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

If you are using a bucket to add water to your tank only treat for the volume in the bucket before you add the water to your tank. If you're using a Python add the dechlorinator to your tank for the volume of the tank and then fill with the Python.

Regarding reading the API test, hold the test tube against the white area of the card (not away from it).


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

I'd treat the whole volume of the tank with Prime. You're not going to harm the fish with a single dose of the stuff and it will help them out by converting some ammonia to ammonium.

As for the rising nitrates, well in my kit the readings start at 5ppm, less than that and you're just trying to compare shades of yellow. Until it pings 5ppm and really gets some differentiation going I wouldn't assume there's any nitrate. It's probably the lest accurate test in the whole kit.


----------



## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

;-) Agreed.


----------



## Maccar (Jan 26, 2009)

Ok here are the latest results, this is with me doing daily 15% water changes.

*Levels As At 30/1/09 
*PH 7.2
Ammonia 1.8
Nitrite 0.0
Nitrate 5.0

One thing that confuses me is that the levels have been the same for 13 days. (Apart from some fluxuation in nitrates) It is my understanding that when a tank is cycling the levels are constantly moving. Am i wrong do the levels just sit sometimes? 
Also i was wondering do UGF tanks take longer to cycle than canister filter tanks?


----------



## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Water conditioner that doesn't address ammonia = ammonia
Live fish breathing=ammonia
fish poop =ammonia
uneaten fish food=ammonia 
Product PRIME = less or no ammonia.
Are you still using the other water conditioner?


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

The ammonia level is in constant flux during a cycle, but you have to recall that your ammonia test is not a very accurate reading. 0.25, 0.5, 1, 2, 4, 8 ppm isn't exactly an incredibly accurate scale. The small variations in concentration that are happening aren't reflected well in such a test. Also ammonia levels that tend to hang up aren't uncommon. Don't worry about it and be patient.


----------



## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

I still think water changes larger than 10 or 15% is needed. There's a fairly heavy bioload in there for a new tank and the small water changes are not able to keep up with the ammonia being produced. 50% initially to get that ammonia down, then 25% daily. Only change the water, don't do any gravel vacs.


----------



## syrinx (Jan 12, 2009)

Most water conditioners, including Prime, can cause incorrect ammonia test readings for 24 hrs after use, according to Seachem's website and others. Just something to keep in mind.

This includes plain old sodium thiosulfate as well as ammonia binders, and the exact effects depend on what type of test is being used.


----------



## Maccar (Jan 26, 2009)

New readings 2/2/09
Ph 7.3
Nitrate 5.0
Ammonia 1.9
Nitrite 0.0

I am still doing 10 - 15% water changes daily, and i have switched to Prime about 3 days ago (i treated the whole volume of the tank on day one) , this is the first test i have done since starting the prime and the values are identical to the tests just before Prime. Im totally lost now and cant understand why after 41 days there is no traces of Nitrites and there has never been any yet???? Ammonia was present at the start of January, it climbed up until the 21st of January and has sat there since. Im still feeding the fish and the fish are still pooping ( i hope!!!) So where is the new ammonia going if its not getting transfered to Nitrites?


----------



## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

I would put the ammonia test away.By now you should have changed nearly 50 to 60 percent of the water which leads me to doubt the ammonia levels you are seeing. I would still feed the fish as you are doing (sparingly) I would watch the fish closely for signs of stress such as Gasping at the surface, rapid gill movement or respiration, or violent or erratic swimming. If none of this behaivor is evident then I would perform weekly water changes.You have approx seven fish that should be dead if levels you have been recording consistently are to be believed. If the fish appear stressed I would then test the water for ammonia and or nitrites otherwise I would let nature take it's course. The relatively small number and size of fish you have should not contribute to lethal levels of ammonia assuming that they arent overfed.It is my belief that something is causing false positive ammonia readings. I believe fish will be fine with proper feeding once a day or every two days.The tank will mature ,,it has to so long as no chemicals and or potions are used.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

I agree with 1077. With this many water changes there should be some reduced ammonia. Likewise the fish would be showing signs of suffering from almost 2ppm of ammonia for weeks on end. Go to your LFS with a sample of your water and have them test it. I'm willing to bet the ammonia readings they get won't match yours.

How are you doing the ammonia test by the way? All these tests are surprisingly sensitive to the way they're conducted.


----------



## Maccar (Jan 26, 2009)

New readings 16/2/09
Ph 7.3
Nitrate 5.0
Ammonia 2.1
Nitrite 0.15

Finally my tank is starting to cycle as today is the first time i have registered Nitrite. I stopped with the water changes and just kept an eye on the fish then to my disbelief one week ago i have 4 new Guppy fry!!

I went to a few pet shops and told them what i was reading with my tank and i finally got pointed to this one aquarium not far from me. I was in disbelief at this aquarium and the guy there clearly knows his stuff, hes been doing fish since he was a kid and it is truly his passion. Anyway he has made his own benificial bacteria as all other stuff in Australia is imported (loses its potentcy). He told me on Sunday do a 1/3 water change and treat the tank with the bacteria and do two more changes on Wednesday and Friday and take some more water back to him on Sunday. I did the water change on Sunday night and took those readings tonight (Monday). And wala Nitrite. Not sure if its coincidence but three other pet shops told me this guy has the best stuff available and hes the fish guru they turn to when they have troubles with tanks. Another thing he pointed out that i never knew or read anywhere is that not many people set UGF's up with enough gravel. He told me that if you put your finger in the gravel and touch the filter plate your finger should be buried up to the second knuckle as a bare minimum so there is enough contact area for bacteria to grow on, my gravel is much lower than that so that may well be half the reason my tank has taken sooo long to cycle. Thankyou all for your help and coments on this, and im glad i can finally say im on the way to having a healthy tank.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

I'm skeptical about the bacteria supplement he gave you. After all given the amount of time you've been cycling nitrite was surely coming soon so whether or not the supplement did anything is suspect. Did he tell you your ammonia level in the tank?


----------



## Maccar (Jan 26, 2009)

Yeah he told me the amonia was about 1.9. So it was the same as ive been reading.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

Have you been doing the water changes? Have you tested your tap water? If you've been doing regular water changes with 0 ppm ammonia water I'd be amazed if your ammonia was that high and stayed there. Unless something's died in your tank.


----------

