# snail attack!



## bluepillow (Jan 23, 2010)

I'm cycling a 20 gal tank and I bought a few plants last week. About three days ago some leaves started dying off the plants. I removed all the dead leaves so they wouldn't rot in the water. 
Yesterday I saw a snail sliming itself up the glass. He looked kinda cool so I left him alone. Today there are about a hundred snails chillin on the driftwood and plants!!! What to do?? The tank is nearly finished cycling and it took a very long time to do so, so I really don't want to start over. 
I read about the "lettuce method" here http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquarium/snails.php

This is the driftwood. The picture didn't do the snails justice. There's a lot more than it seems.









This is an ugly looking leaf which had tons of bubbles beneath it. To the right is a "bubble nest".









This is another bubble nest.









What should I do with this stuff?


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## rsn48 (Nov 26, 2009)

Once you've got snails you've got em. The traditional advise is to 1) hand pick them out (forget this method) 2) put lettuce or cucumber down on a saucer (lightly boil the lettuce to soften it up) and take the snails that climb on the saucer out after 24 hours, repeat as needed 3) get snail eating fish, this isn't a good one for a small aquarium as most are larger fish, and some with a reputation for eating snails may not 4) chemical eradication - this isn't recommended as the chemicals can do damage to fish 5) assassin snails - these guys eat other snails, don't breed quickly like other snails, won't eat your plants and will eat the dirt on the substrate left over by fish. An aquarium with "some" snails is actually not a bad thing; you will need around 5 to 10 assassin snails.


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## bluepillow (Jan 23, 2010)

Thanks for the input. I put a large piece of lettuce in the tank. Hopefully this stuff won't be too much of a problem. Is there anyway to get these plants back into shape? I have no fish in the tank yet.


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## rsn48 (Nov 26, 2009)

Lightly boil the lettuce, it softens it up a tad, you only need to boil for about three minutes. Immerse once water is boiling.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Bluepillow, can you take another photo of the plants from a bit farther back? The lack of clarity makes it difficult for me to see the issues.

On of the plants looks like Dracanea, which is not a true aquatic plant, and it will in time rot if kept under water. This is the plant with green and white streaked leaves. If this is the plant that is rotting now, I would remove it before it pollutes the tank. But more photos would be helpful just to be certain.

A comment on snails, I like them. I have hundreds of Malaysian Trumpet Snails in my tanks. My water is very soft and acidic, so other snails do not fare too well (MTS can manage in soft water), but I am able to keep a few bladder or pond snails in my 115g with a pH of 6.2. Snails are very useful; they eat algae from plant leaves, eat any leftover food, eat decaying plant material, and MTS burrow through the substrate keeping it from compacting. These common small snails do not eat live plants unless the leaf is dying.

Byron.


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## bluepillow (Jan 23, 2010)

Byron said:


> Bluepillow, can you take another photo of the plants from a bit farther back? The lack of clarity makes it difficult for me to see the issues.
> 
> On of the plants looks like Dracanea, which is not a true aquatic plant, and it will in time rot if kept under water. This is the plant with green and white streaked leaves. If this is the plant that is rotting now, I would remove it before it pollutes the tank. But more photos would be helpful just to be certain.


I bought the plants from Petco labeled "bunched plants" so I really don't know what was in the bunch. Also this is my first planted tank so I really have no past experience in choosing plants.
Also, I wanted to add Fluorite substrate to the current gravel. Is that a good idea?


I am willing to keep the snails only if they don't harm the plants.

This is before any visible damage.









Now:


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

The green and white striped leaf is Dracanea, a terrestrial plant. It will last underwater for a while, sometimes several weeks, but eventually it will rot and should be immediately removed when that starts. Many fish stores are still selling these "house plants" as aquarium plants, sad to say. This plant would be fine in a terrarium with the roots under water but the leaves in the air.

The plant in photo 6 from the top is Java Fern, also shown on the far right in photo 1. It is planted in the gravel but should not be, it will rot. It has a rhizome from which emerge hair roots; the rhizome should be attached to rock or wood (you can use a piece of cotton thread, or it there is a crevice sometimes the rhizome can be carefully stuck in it) and the hair roots will in time firmly anchor the plant to the rock or wood.

The common snails will not harm live plants.

Flourite is a good plant enriched substrate, but should be put under the gravel. At this point I would not add it to this tank.

I am still not certain of the plant with yellowing leaves; in the photos with the yellow it looks like a sword (Echinodorus sp). If it is, it is normal for existing leaves to yellow and die, and once they start they should be removed from the crown. If new growth is emerging from the centre of the crown the plant is probably fine.

Byron.


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## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

I have heavily planted tanks, and tons of ramshorns, MTS, and pond snails.

It's not that snails don't eat plants. It's that they don't eat living plants.
What kind of lighting schedule do you have?
(not enough light can cause plants to wilt)
What kind of bulbs do you have in your light setup?
(If it's the wrong spectrum, the plants can die.)
What kind of filter is running?
(If there's not enough CO2 in the water, it could be harming the plants. Aeration increases oxygen and decreases CO2- without any fish and without enough bacteria, maybe there's not enough CO2. The bacteria that you grow when you cycle produce co2. )

I've heard that mystery and apple snails will occasionally munch on a plant if they're starving, but they get big and are pretty easy to identify.

If you go to the Freshwater pictures and videos forum you can find my topic called "all my tanks- lots of pics" and see the snails that I have.

If you have that kind, then you're okay on the snail front.
Can't really see the snails in the pics... but you can be sure they're not MTS since MTS don't lay eggs.


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## bluepillow (Jan 23, 2010)

Byron said:


> The green and white striped leaf is Dracanea, a terrestrial plant. It will last underwater for a while, sometimes several weeks, but eventually it will rot and should be immediately removed when that starts. Many fish stores are still selling these "house plants" as aquarium plants, sad to say. This plant would be fine in a terrarium with the roots under water but the leaves in the air.
> 
> The plant in photo 6 from the top is Java Fern, also shown on the far right in photo 1. It is planted in the gravel but should not be, it will rot. It has a rhizome from which emerge hair roots; the rhizome should be attached to rock or wood (you can use a piece of cotton thread, or it there is a crevice sometimes the rhizome can be carefully stuck in it) and the hair roots will in time firmly anchor the plant to the rock or wood.
> 
> ...


My brother actually already bought the Flourite. I'll see if i can put it in the tank without much hassle.

Regarding the Java Fern, when I was buying all the plants, I specifically asked the associate if they can be planted in gravel and the answer was yes to all. I'll tie it to the driftwood in a few minutes.

The plant that looks like a sword/Echinodorus sp is the one that is dying the most. I will do my best to remove the Dracanea now, because I don't want to deal with this plant decaying later on.
Do you have an idea of what kind of plant this one is?













redchigh said:


> I have heavily planted tanks, and tons of ramshorns, MTS, and pond snails.
> 
> It's not that snails don't eat plants. It's that they don't eat living plants.
> What kind of lighting schedule do you have?
> ...


Lights are on usually from about 7:30AM to around 9PM.
The markings on the bulb say Cool White 20W F20T12 H188.
I'm running two "Whisper" carbon filters. Should I only be using one? (I received this tank, hood, light, and filters from a friend.)
The snails are about 0.5 centimeter in length. The baby snails are barely visible.

Also, for completeness sake:
pH: 5.0 (if not less, because the API test kit doesn't indicate below 5.0)
Ammonia: 1.0-2.0 ppm
Nitrite: 1.0 ppm
Nitrate: 5.0 ppm
My tap water is soft.

Also a question a bit off topic, if my pH is low (like it is now), can I add more aquarium salt to raise it?


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## Austin (Feb 1, 2010)

I don't think salt raises the PH. Also plants DO NOT like salt.

5 PH is very low. What is the PH of your tap water?

That red plant may be Alternanthera reineckii, not sure. And I don't know any info about it, other than seeing it at petsmart before.


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## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

Many crypts resenble swords.... maybe it's crypt melt?

Also, it may not be the problem... but activated carbon is bad for plants- it takes their nutrients out of the water.

Also, after carbon is "full" it begins to release whatever it was holding back into the water. (especially bad if it's a used filter- who knows what was in the water of the last person who had it. Could even be salt.)

I'd dump the charcoal out of the filters first.
Then think about what kind of fish you plan on getting. Can they tolerate a PH of 5? (not too many do...)
If you want to raise the PH, you can add "dolomite gravel" to your filter. Yes, it's just a gravel made from dolomite- many home stores have it. Look for a mom&pop store that can sell you a pound though... it lasts nearly forever.

If you like the PH where it is, cram a bunch of filter floss or some other kind of bio-media into it.


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## bluepillow (Jan 23, 2010)

Oh no I'm not using the previous owner's filter media, I replaced the actual carbon and whatnot, I'm just using the mount.

I added fluorite to the tank. The water is a bit cloudy now despite all the rinsing. We'll see how the plants fair.

Also, the pH of my tap water is 7, so I'm guessing the driftwood and plants significantly lowered the pH. Can I dilute a pH increase chemical and add a few drops? I'm really not a fan of adding that stuff to change pH.

My brother wanted to put a dwarf guorami and a school of platys. I was also thinking of albino corys.

Thank you everyone for your input!! I really appreciate it!!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Lots of different issues in the last couple of posts, please be careful. Going off in several directions can lead to real disaster in an aquarium. You are dealing with a delicate balance of nature between plants, bacteria, water chemistry and fish (I know, no fish yet, fortunately). And this balance is very fragile now because this is a new system; it needs time (a few months) to settle biologically. Any significant interruption during that period can cause considerable trouble, I speak from experience.

To your questions/issues.

Austin is correct, the plant is Alternanthera reineckii, a stem plant from South America.

On the Flourite. I'd forgotten there were no fish, so you can easily drain the tank and remove the existing gravel and add the Flourite (rinse it first, the water will cloud for a while). Flourite is usually used on its own, it is a complete enriched substrate. But it can be mixed with gravel. However, I would not unless the gravel is very similar in colour, which yours is not. The mix of these two substrates may not look right. But more importantly, the fish.

No mention yet of what species you intend, but in a planted tank with an acidic soft water chemistry I would assume tropical forest fish like characins, rasbora, gourami, catfish, loaches, dwarf cichlids. A 20g is too small fro angels and discus, but they are also forest fish. These fish all do better over dark substrates. They will be less stressed because they all for the most part come from waters with dark substrates and nature has programmed this into them for millions of years. The Flourite would be ideal, for the fish and the plants. And aesthetically, dark substrates show off the colours of plants and fish very nicely.

I agree with removing the carbon; it is not recommended in planted aquaria. However, since you have it, I would leave it for a couple weeks as it will assist in clearing the water. Carbon gives out after a few weeks, depending upon how much adsorption it does, and would have to be replaced, but rather than doing that just leave it, it will do no harm and serve as additional surface for bacteria. Although that is not something you need in planted tanks, but I won't get into that topic. At this stage with your plants and a new tank there are more important issues.

Your tap water sounds like mine, pH 7 with no hardness. Wood can affect pH in soft water, though I would not have suspected to this extent so quickly and with no fish in the aquarium. My 70g and 90g aquaria went down to below pH 6, but the 115g remained at 6.2 because I have half a cup of dolomite in the filter to buffer the water, as redchigh mentioned. This is the safest and therefore only way to raise hardness and pH, naturally with calcareous stone substances like dolomite or crushed coral. Please do not even consider the chemical water adjusters. They often don't work long-term, plus they are another chemical and while there are no fish at present there will be and these substances are not good for fish. Before you mess with water parameters, decide on the fish you intend. Some will be perfect with what you have, some will be better with the slightly higher pH (still in the 6's), and the latter will suit most of the afore-mentioned fishes.

While typing this I spotted your last post, so I won't change any of the above. Platys will not do well in acidic water. All livebearers fare much better (= healthier and longer lives) in basic, alkaline/hard water. And they are not a good mix with soft water fish for that reason; someone loses out, and the losing fish will be less healthy.

Byron.


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## bluepillow (Jan 23, 2010)

Byron said:


> Lots of different issues in the last couple of posts, please be careful. Going off in several directions can lead to real disaster in an aquarium. You are dealing with a delicate balance of nature between plants, bacteria, water chemistry and fish (I know, no fish yet, fortunately). And this balance is very fragile now because this is a new system; it needs time (a few months) to settle biologically. Any significant interruption during that period can cause considerable trouble, I speak from experience.
> 
> To your questions/issues.
> 
> ...



I really appreciate your input. I will probably put a dwarf gourami and a school of tetras in the tank. I am also considering Kuhli loaches or albino cories as bottom dwellers. I'm not rushing to put the fish in the tank at all and I don't mind waiting however long it takes for everything to stabilize.
I will be removing the carbon from the filter in about a week because the Flourite made it a little cloudy now.

I read your articles in the Plant section (something I should have done weeks ago...) and I think getting more plants wouldn't be a bad idea. This time obviously I would do some research so that I wouldn't make the Java Fern mistake again. Do you think it would be a bad idea to add another piece of driftwood? In the case I would also look into the dolomite as it might further lower the pH.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Generally speaking, getting some dolomite to buffer the water is probably a good idea. It doesn't take much, a couple tablespoons in a nylon bag in the filter chamber may be sufficient; monitor the pH over a week, add a bit more (or remove some), etc., always waiting a week between to allow everything to stabilize. I haven't done this in my 70g and 90g tanks primarily because most all of the fish are wild-caught and occur in waters with pH around 4-5 and zero hardness, so I have no desire to mess with the tank's parameters if they are stable. But a pH around 6 is a good aim.

And yes, another piece of wood, probably a bit smaller (aesthetically more pleasing to the eye, no other reason) to balance the existing piece would look good I think. And loaches and corys love browsing over wood.

On stability, the fish are a significant part of this, so your tank will not properly stabilize until fish are in it. Once you have live plants growing, fish can be added, only a couple at a time so the plants can assimilate the ammonia and there will be no "cycle" to speak of.

You appear to be on the correct path. Good luck. And keep any new questions coming.

Byron.


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## bluepillow (Jan 23, 2010)

Just a quick update.
The lettuce didn't have any snails near it in the morning. I saw a few here and there, so I left them alone. 

Now plants. It seems as if every time I look at the tank, another plant is dead. I removed the carbon from the filter right after the cloudy water had settled from adding the Flourite. The swords are dead. The Java Fern looks alright on the driftwood and the red plant, Alternanthera reinecki, is also doing fine.

Today the driftwood looked like dust was sprinkled on top of it. then i took a closer look and this crap was moving! Like mini worms! Are these the baby snails? When I moved the driftwood with the fishnet they went bananas and made the water all dirty again.

I ordered plants from www.sweetaquatics.com. They haven't arrived yet and I'm scared to put them in the tank when they do. What can be the problem here, and how can it be solved?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

bluepillow said:


> Just a quick update.
> The lettuce didn't have any snails near it in the morning. I saw a few here and there, so I left them alone.
> 
> Now plants. It seems as if every time I look at the tank, another plant is dead. I removed the carbon from the filter right after the cloudy water had settled from adding the Flourite. The swords are dead. The Java Fern looks alright on the driftwood and the red plant, Alternanthera reinecki, is also doing fine.
> ...


I wouldn't fuss over the snails, there are other issues more important.

How do you know the swords are dead? This is not a facetious question; plants frequently lose their existing leaves when put into a different aquarium. I noted the yellowing leaves previously on what I assume are the swords though I wasn't sure from the photos. Was there any new leaf growth from the centre of the crown?

Can you post photos of the tank now? One of the whole tank so we can see things in relation, and one of the wood in close-up but clear so we can see what may be on it.


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## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

Do you know the color temperature of your lights (in degrees kelvin)?


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## bluepillow (Jan 23, 2010)

I'm so sorry for not replying, but school and a new job had me really really busy lately. In any case, here are pics. I separated the plants to see if it's just the swords or everything else crapping out too. Turns out it's just the swords. This is not the way I'm leaving these plants, it's just temporary to isolate the problem areas.




















Swords in the back are falling over, and new ones aren't visible.











First and third from the left are swords.


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## bluepillow (Jan 23, 2010)

iamntbatman said:


> Do you know the color temperature of your lights (in degrees kelvin)?


Nope, how do I find out?

Edit: I googled it. My bulb is cool white and this website says between 4000-4200. http://www.lightbulbsdirect.com/page/001/CTGY/ColorTemp


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

First on the tube colour, on one end of the fl;uorescent tube there will be some data printed; sometimes one item will be the kelvin, like 6500K. Tell us what that says.

On the plants: some show new growth emerging, the one in the back I agree does not. I would just leave it and see what happens. On fertilizer, which is essential here, you said you have Flourite in the gravel. Are you using any liquid fertilizer, and if so, what and how often?

Byron.


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## bluepillow (Jan 23, 2010)

No liquid fertilizer. Any recommendations? 
There were no markings on the bulb indicating temperature but it is Cool White. I looked it up and it's supposed to be from 4000K to 4200K.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

bluepillow said:


> No liquid fertilizer. Any recommendations?
> There were no markings on the bulb indicating temperature but it is Cool White. I looked it up and it's supposed to be from 4000K to 4200K.


I saw that earlier link, it is not all that accurate. I use full spectrum and cool white on my tanks, and both are 6500K and higher. The Phillips cool white I have on the 70g is 6500K exactly, the full spectrum happen to be Life-Glo 2 at 6700K (one of these on each tank, plus one cool white).

I would recommend a liquid fertilizer. Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium, Nutrafin's Plant-Gro, or Kent Freshwater Plant [not sure this is still available, can't seem to find it]. Make sure you get exactly these names, the manufacturers make several products in these lines, but these named are the comprehensive micro-nutrient supplements. If you are getting more plants as mentioned previously in this thread, this will be essential in my view.

Byron.


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## bluepillow (Jan 23, 2010)

http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2753921

I'll be getting that soon. Thanks again.

These are the only markings on the bulb:


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## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

From what I read on several sites those bulbs are 4100-4200 K. That's a little low. I would look for something in the 6500-6700K range. If that's a T12 bulb, you can most likely use T8 bulbs in the same fixture. You can always buy bulbs meant for aquarium use but it's usually much cheaper to buy from a home improvement store. Finding the kelvin ratings on the packaging isn't always easy, so you might want to jot down some of the common companies' kelvin ratings by description (cool white, soft white, daylight, natural, etc.) so you have those on hand when you go shopping.


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## bluepillow (Jan 23, 2010)

http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

this alright?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

bluepillow said:


> http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
> 
> this alright?


*No*, in my opinion. All of these so-called "aquarium" or "plant" type lights that i have ever tried (and I've tried a number of them over the years) are high in blue and red with little or no green, which makes the aquarium purplish or ghoulish. Aside from that, the intensity is considerably weaker than daylight/full spectrum tubes, by half or less. One of these with a good full spectrum--if you have two tubes over the tank--can sometimes be OK, but I still do not recommend them.

You want a full spectrum or daylight type of tube, as iamntbatman mentioned. Phillips, Sylvania and GE make these, they call them different things--Phillips calls theirs "Daylight Deluxe" and I use them along with others; Sylvania is no longer available at HD in Canada, but they used to have a similar (identical to my eye) type, can't remember what they called it. The kelvin is on the box and it is 6500K, perfect. These tubes are high in red and blue but also green to balance. In my experience they are good plant growth tubes for aquaria. Angel079 has mentioned a GE tube in a couple of older threads, much the same thing.

Byron.


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## bluepillow (Jan 23, 2010)

OK I'm looking online but I rarely see the Kelvin temp so I'll go around some stores on Friday. I found a bulb that's sold in a LFS. This is from the manufacturer's site:

http://www.hagen.com/usa/aquatic/product.cfm?CAT=1&SUBCAT=112&PROD_ID=01015910020101

I'll also go around the other pet stores like Petco and Petsmart and home improvement stores and check out what they have. For now, it looks like Home Depot only sells them 10 in a pack. 

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...47&prodComp_1=100476644&N=5yc1vZ1xj8ZbmaeZ15b


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

> OK I'm looking online but I rarely see the Kelvin temp so I'll go around some stores on Friday. I found a bulb that's sold in a LFS. This is from the manufacturer's site:
> 
> http://www.hagen.com/usa/aquatic/pro...01015910020101


This is good light but not what I would use with a single tube over the tank. If you look at the spectrum graph (the coloured box) it shows high red/yellow light. This is called "warm white" as opposed to cool white (more blue and less red) or natural white (daylight). Some aquarists like this type of light, I prefer the cooler; studies have shown that plants grow slightly better under cool white and full spectrum than warm white. Hence, I don't recommend this tube over another.

In that Hagen (Nutrafin) line of tubes, they are several types. The best for planted tanks is Life-Glo. It is 6700K, natural daylight with a hint of higher blue. As true "full spectrum" about as close to mid-day sun as one can get. I use this over my single-tube tank, and it is one of the two tubes over my dual-tube tanks. But it is expensive, 4 or 5 times the cost of the hardware store tubes which if you find the 6500K tube will give near-identical light.

Another aquarium store brand if you can find them are Zoo-Med. Made in Germany, they are less expensive that Hagen series, though still more than hardware store tubes. Their equivalent tube for full spectrum is the Ultra Sun at (I think) 6500K. Their Tropic Sun is very close to the Sun-Glo you linked, warm white; I have used it so I know what it's like. I prefer the Phillips 6500K.



> I'll also go around the other pet stores like Petco and Petsmart and home improvement stores and check out what they have. For now, it looks like Home Depot only sells them 10 in a pack.
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...Z1xj8ZbmaeZ15b


These tubes would be fine, *except* they appear to be T12 (the diameter is the T number and these are 1.5 inches which is T12). These tubes are being phased out in North America because the T8 (smaller diameter) consume less energy, produce slightly less heat, use less gas inside, and last longer before they diminish output intensity, and for our purposes are slightly more intense in light--so the T8 is a better tube. T12 need replacing every year, T8 is said to go three years; all fluorescent tubes diminish output over time so while they still "light" the intensity is weak after the afore-mentioned periods and they should be replaced. 

My HD here is changing to T8, the last Phillips tubes I bought are now T8 but only in 48-inch, the smaller tubes are still T12 (getting rid of stock I expect). If you go into the store, they may have T8 and singly rather than packages; I buy them in pairs which is one way they have them here as well as boxes of a dozen (more for contractors etc).


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## bluepillow (Jan 23, 2010)

I bought a pair of T12 6500K Phillips bulbs. Plants should be here by next week.


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