# Angel fish unwell, help pls. Researched everything and dont have a clue :(



## kadieradcliffe (Jan 21, 2012)

Hi I'm new here. I was given 4 tropical fish
about a year ago of a friend of the family.
Long story short 3 of them died . I have one Angel fish
left and I'm not sure he/she is a girl or boy. I'm not sure 
how many gallons the tank is. I have an air pump and a heater
that I keep at 28c , he/she has gravel and one fake plant. No
filter. He/she is fed flakes in the morning and half a bloodworm cube
shared with my baby terrapin at night. He/she was fine until around a month ago when he started
rubbing against his air pump. I cleaned him out (which I've recently
learned that I shouldn't do) but I had no choice since I don't 
have a filter and there was eggs all over the air pump. I researched it
and found out that if they was opaque then they was dead. (So I'm guessing
the fish is a female? Anyway since then she/he has developed
a bloated tummy and is still rubbing on the air pump and seems
to panic most of the day. I use fresh start to get rid of the chlorine every
time I clean him/her out. I tried methleyne blue(didn't work) its the 6th day of trying
Anti-white spot and on the 4th day I did a 30% water change and gave
it a second dose. He seems to be getting worse, I'm running out of
options. Please help. I absoloutley love him/her to bits. He's a fighter


----------



## Romad (Jun 28, 2009)

I see you figured out how to make your thread  In order to help, please answer a few basic questions. I'm going to go on record as saying that I don't own any angels but plenty of people here do and should be able to help.

How long ago did the other fish die? If your remaining fish was part of a mated pair (guessing yes because of the eggs) then it's probably under a lot of stress alone. 

It sounds like you've been treating it for Ich. Does the fish look like it's been sprinkled in salt? 

What are your water parameters for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate? How often do you change the water and how much? Do you siphon the gravel each time?

If you're giving one fish 1/2 a cube of bloodworms each night - that is way too much food. That could account for the bloat you're seeing as well. 

It would also be helpful if you could post a picture. 

Finally, welcome to TFK :wave:


----------



## kadieradcliffe (Jan 21, 2012)

The first 3 fish died in the first 2 months into having them as I didn't and still 
don't really know what I'm doing. That's why I didn't think he/she could of mated with any other fish with theyr being a long amount of time between them dying and the eggs. Also when they died I got complete new tank and basically new everything. And he seemed to actually be more happier with them gone :/ I don't really know what I'm treating him for as basically all I have done is researched his symptoms on the internet and took a guess. He doesn't look like he's been sprinkled in salt. As for this part of the question (What are your water parameters for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate? How often do you change the water and how much? Do you siphon the gravel each time?) I actually don't have a clue what I'm doing. I'm planning to buy a test kit in a couple of days but I didn't want to buy one when I don't even understand what the reading should be. I don't know what siphon means. And I change the water every week with a 100% water change due to having no filter. (I didn't want a internal filter AND a air pump to be to much for him.) I'll give him flake food from now on but even before I started giving him the bloodworm at 
night he had a bloated belly. Thankyou and ill try to post a pic now.
I don't think its let me post a picture I went on manage attactments 
and uploading one of him but I don't think its worked if you can my 
profile pic is of him.


----------



## Romad (Jun 28, 2009)

With no filter, you don't really have anything to house the beneficial bacteria to convert you ammonia and nitrites to nitrates. Both ammonia and nitrites are lethal to fish.

Measure the width, height, and depth of your tank and post the dimensions here or google the results to figure out the size of your tank.

I'd get the filter and skip the airstone. The filter will create water movement enough if you get the right size for your tank.

A siphon is used to clean the gunk out of the gravel without removing it during water changes.


----------



## kadieradcliffe (Jan 21, 2012)

I was kinda worried that if I got rid of the air pump that he wouldn't be able to breathe? Lol :/ so what do you suggest me getting? A filter and a test kit? I'm confused. I've read on here that If I used aquariam salt he might get better? Should I buy some of them. I'm just really stuck on what's actually wrong with him and how to cure him :-(. I'll measure the tank now.


----------



## kadieradcliffe (Jan 21, 2012)

*Someone pls help, I can tell he's not got long left.
I've ran out of option, no pet stores will help, pls help* :-(


----------



## Romad (Jun 28, 2009)

Sorry but without actual symptoms or knowing what your water levels are, there's no way to actually know what's wrong. Aquariam salt probably won't help at this point - it really just helps out with electrolytes and is not a medication.

Does you water conditioner remove chlorine and chloramines from the tap water? Keep your water super clean. That's about the best you can do at this point. If you can't save the fish, we can help you start over again from scratch with cycling your tank


----------



## afremont (Nov 17, 2011)

Can you change all the water without temperature shocking him? The fish in the picture appears to have tail rot so that would most likely be caused by a bacterial infection.

Edit: A water change would be most helpful thing you could do right now. A filter in combination with the air stone is fine, in fact the filter is really the most important thing since the bacteria that detoxify ammonia primarily live there.


----------



## kadieradcliffe (Jan 21, 2012)

I did a water change around 50% and that didn't seem to have
helped him, I've kept the lights off and had him in a dark room.
I'm stuck on what to do since I can't buy a filter
and am getting 100 different views on what I should/shouldnt do.
Because I don't have a filter or gravel cleaner
How do I do his water change without stressing him out or still
leaving him in dirty water. I thought
it may be something to do with fin rot but
his fins been like that since I got him.
I know I shouldn't of took in fish if I didn't
know what I was doing but it was either
that or the owners was going to flush them :-|


----------



## kadieradcliffe (Jan 21, 2012)

Why won't anyone help me or explain it in easy terms :-(


----------



## Christople (Sep 7, 2010)

Fish poop is considered waste. The waste is transformed into ammonia then nitrite and lastly nitrate by good germs. The filter is where most of the germs live and that is why it is important. The filter also acts as a air pump. We need to know the ammonia nitrite and nitrate are to see if that could be a problem.
What are the dimensions of your tank length width and height. Describe the illness or any symptoms of the fish


----------



## kadieradcliffe (Jan 21, 2012)

As of now I can't test the water, tomorrow I'm going to buy a filter and test kits. Would it be okay to replace the air pump with the filter and where 
would I place it in the tank wihout it being a nuisance to him.
I can't measure til tomrrow either.
His symptoms are bloated tummy, breathing rapidly and rubbing against air pump.
Would it be okay if you added me on facebook as I don't know how
To use this properly. Thankyou


----------



## Christople (Sep 7, 2010)

Don't actually have a face book, yes the air pump and the filter will be okay but overkill. She might have internal parasites or most likely bloat


----------



## afremont (Nov 17, 2011)

It won't hurt, in fact I recommend it, if you leave the air bubbler in the tank. You can't have too much oxygen in the water. Your fish, like many, has general symptoms that could be caused by a number of different things. Without being sure, people are going to be hesitant to recommend anything for fear of suggesting the wrong thing.

It could just be ammonia or nitrite poisoning, but it sounds more like the fish has some kind of internal problem like parasites or an infection. If you've seen long stringy white poop, then it's likely parasites. I believe that fish infected with parasites such as tapeworms will commonly continue to eat, but still waste away since the parasite is getting all the nutrients from the food.

Since your fish has tail damage and refuses to eat, bacterial infection may be the problem. Do you see any red blotches or horizontal redish striping thru the skin? These would be signs of a bacterial infection. 

Can you see inside his gills? If so, are they bright red, swollen, or brownish colored?

Even if you lose this fish, you shouldn't give up on fish completely. The filter is a necessity to keep virtually any type of fish so that won't be money wasted.

The number one key to healthy fish is clean water, clean meaning no ammonia and no nitrites, not just clear water. Secondly, they need as little stress as possible. This means keeping the right number, and the right type of tank mates as well as providing plenty of hiding spots for the fish. As soon as a fish feels unsafe, its immune system will be compromised and it will get sick from opportunistic invaders. Like us, fish are always under attach by various fungi, parasites, bacteria and viruses. Unfortunately many of these things can cause similar symptoms such as panting and sitting still. Rubbing against things is generally a sign of parasites of some type.


----------



## kadieradcliffe (Jan 21, 2012)

Its just with it being a medium sized tank I didn't want two types of blowy things to overwhelm him. So do you suggest using anti internal bacteria?
And wouldn't I need to do a complete 100% water change since there is still some anti white-spot in ther. I'm going to the pet shop soon
and I normally ask him but he doesn't really want me annoying him really just wants me to
buy stuff and get out. If this was your fish
what would you suggest buying today I have £50
So out of test kit, aquariam salt, filter, anything else?
I really don't know what I'm doing and I don't want him to die because of me :-(


----------



## kadieradcliffe (Jan 21, 2012)

And yes its red near his gills.


----------



## afremont (Nov 17, 2011)

I would get a hang-on-the-back type of filter if you can. It won't blow bubbles, but it will provide a small waterfall like effect to stir up the surface. You could just go with a sponge type filter that hooks to your air pump since the tank is small, any size should do.

Red near the gills is a sign of ammonia poisoning as well as parasites such as gill flukes etc, so water changes as much as possible are the way to go. Be sure that you can test for ammonia and for nitrItes with the kit that you buy. Liquid tests are better than paper strips and are much cheaper in the long run since you can do scores of tests.

As for medicine suggestions, I wish somebody else would chime in. I'm thinking that since the fish is rubbing against objects that it may be parasites so I guess I'd treat for that using something different than you've been using. Look for Tetra Parasite Guard since it is probably allot cheaper than using an AP medicine but will contain the same drugs more or less. It also contains some antibiotics to aid in secondary bacterial infections.


----------



## kadieradcliffe (Jan 21, 2012)

Just been in pet shop and explain everything to the pet 
shop owner who seems to actually help unlike others. And he advised me to get Anti slime and velvet.
I also bought aquariam salt, test strips and a gravel cleaner. 
How do I start fresh now tonight with everything?


----------



## kadieradcliffe (Jan 21, 2012)

I tested the water and my results are:

Ammonia - 10 :-(
Nitrate No3 - 0
Nitrate No2 - 0
GH - 125
KH - 100
pH - <64

And the measurements of my tank
Say from google that I have a 5gallon. 18 litre tank? 

Please help


----------



## afremont (Nov 17, 2011)

Change all of your water now, the ammonia levels are way too high and will assuredly kill the fish. It is very likely that this is the root cause of all of the problems with the fish. I like to prepare tomorrows water today, so that it is at least room temp by the time I need it. Just put your filter together and rinse the parts in dechlorinated water as you assemble it. Be prepared to change at least half of your water every day for the next month or two while the filter cycles in. Put one tablespoon of salt per five gallons of water.

See if the shop owner will give you some filter media or gravel to put in your tank to jump start the cycle.


----------



## afremont (Nov 17, 2011)

I've been thinking about this and cant help but wonder how this fish lived this long without a filter. I'm thinking that there is an undergravel filter in the tank and that's what the air bubbler is about. Take a picture of the setup if you can. If so, that is enough of a filter as long as you don't remove the rocks and wash them which it sounds like you may have done after rereading the posts. If that is the case, then it will eventually recover but will need allot (daily) of water changes while waiting out the cycle.

If you already have an undergravel filter in place, you can probably take back the extra filter you just bought and spend your money on something like a couple of buckets and maybe an extra heater to preheat the water in the bucket so that you can do up to a 100% water change easily. 

I can't stress enough how desperately your fish needs new water with no ammonia in it. It will be the best medicine that you can give him right now. In fact, I'd just try to get a bucket of water that is the same temp as the tank water and just put him in it with an airstone while you work on draining your tank and putting new water in it. Right now if you can. 10ppm of ammonia is extremely high.

To help determine if you have an undergravel filter, is there a plastic frame under your gravel? If so, does it have a clear plastic tube coming up from it with the bubble stone inside there? If so then that is an undergravel filter system. Your gravel is the filter media that the bacteria grows on and the bubbles aerate the water and also cause it to flow like a weak water pump down thru the gravel and up the plastic tube.

Youtube videos will show you how to vacuum your gravel and such while siphoning water out.


----------



## kadieradcliffe (Jan 21, 2012)

I've just put him in a spare tank with a spare heater in the
same temp as his water and then cleaned his water out
he's in his main tank now and I've just done a test
And his ammonia is now at 0 . Yes I have an 
Undergravel filter I think from what you have told 
me. And I did have a external filter
until a couple of months ago like the 
person suggested before that hangs on the back.
The only thing I'm struggling with is
if the ammonia is to high how do I bring it back down?
Also I'm struggling on how to clean him out/water change
without stressing him out. 
I will try to post a picture now.


----------



## afremont (Nov 17, 2011)

If the ammonia is too high, the only thing that will bring it down is a water change. The ammonia comes from the fishes waist and from rotting food that didn't get eaten. Now the main thing is to not stress him when changing the water. Getting the temps within 1 or 2 degrees will be important so that he doesn't stress over a temp change. Probably the easiest thing is to siphon it down until the fish has just enough water to remain upright, then add the new water back in. That way you won't have to catch him each time which would stress you both out too much. Always use the appropriate amount of dechlorinator in your new water. You could also say change half the water in the morning and half in the evening to keep from having to lower the level so much. I'd change as much as possible each time you do it since the tank is pretty small. Make sure he always has plenty of oxygen since his gills will likely have been damaged from the ammonia. Also I saw where you had used methylene blue. It's really good stuff, but it will kill all the beneficial bacteria in your tank so you'll need to get it all out in order to get your bacteria growing again. Never forget to dechlorinate your water before putting the fish in it.


----------



## kadieradcliffe (Jan 21, 2012)

I didn't mean to put 10 for the ammonia I meant to put 1.0, now I've cleaned him its 0.
The manage attatchments thing isn't hear. 
Just feel like I'm taking one step forward 10 steps back :frustrated:
Thankyou thought


----------



## afremont (Nov 17, 2011)

1 ppm is plenty bad enough on its own. You want to keep it as close to zero as you can get it. Same goes for the nitrItes when they start showing up next week. Daily water changes are your destiny for about a month.


----------



## kadieradcliffe (Jan 21, 2012)

Okay how much % should I take out and replace daily?


----------



## afremont (Nov 17, 2011)

At least enough that ammonia doesn't increase from day to day. Maybe 25 to 50% twice per day. Really, no amount of ammonia is truly safe. You can use supplements like amquel to "lock up" ammonia and nitrites for 24 hours at a time, but you should still provide as much fresh water as you can each day thru water changes. How is the fish doing so far?


----------



## kadieradcliffe (Jan 21, 2012)

Okay ill do that then.
And he seems to go from being completely fine to darting around still and his bellys still bloated. He didn't rub on the air pump all day today until about an hour ago. Right now he's just going up and doing the tank with his nose up against the glass swerving his tall to swin round :-(


----------



## GwenInNM (Feb 2, 2011)

Okay, I'm going to chime in. First of all a 5 gal is ridiculously small for an Angelfish. Call your fish store and ask them if they have a secluded tank they would keep him in to save his life? When and if he survives, let them find another home. Some do have quarentine tanks that they may be willing to put him in. I'm not saying you should get him back, this is just a thought to save him now.

When you get yourself more aware of what is needed, do some learning on this site, than you can go out and look for a fish or more that will suit your set up. My opinion. :-D

I figured your ammonia couldn't have been 10, or he'd be dead. Angelfish are not for beginners. 

Gwen


----------



## afremont (Nov 17, 2011)

"let them find another home", yeah that's really gonna happen. The fish probably wouldn't survive the car trip and I seriously doubt the LFS is going to spend one dime on treating it.


----------



## GwenInNM (Feb 2, 2011)

afremont said:


> "let them find another home", yeah that's really gonna happen. The fish probably wouldn't survive the car trip and I seriously doubt the LFS is going to spend one dime on treating it.



You could be right, but it's worth a call.


----------



## kadieradcliffe (Jan 21, 2012)

I'm like 99% sure the pet shop would not take him in. And I didn't even know what an angel fish was before I got him but like I said I got given him and if he dies I don't think ill be getting anymore, its so complicated.
I have another tank that I could put him in but it wouldn't be much better I don't think.
I honestly wish I could find him a better home that know what they're doing :-( 
The spare tank the width its 45cm and the height is 30cm :-(.

Ahhhhhhh :-(


----------



## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

Petco here will take fish to rehome. They won't pay you for him, but they will put him in a tank and try to find another home for him.


----------



## afremont (Nov 17, 2011)

Inga said:


> Petco here will take fish to rehome. They won't pay you for him, but they will put him in a tank and try to find another home for him.


Personally, I'd euthanize my fish before giving them to any Petco store around here. I already have 9 out of 11 dwarf gouramis that I rescued from one local store. They were letting the fish suffer, die and then be devoured by the other fish. Yesterday I was in a different local store I hadn't been in before getting a bucket and air pump and there were mouldy dead bettas in plastic tubs. There were also dead fish in tanks, and very sick fish including a dwarf gourami that had ick real bad. I wanted to take him and fix him up, but I need to find good homes for the ones I have. I think the angel fish is getting the best possible care it's going to receive unless she finds someone very nearby that can safely transport him. What kind of care is a fish in the "back room" going to receive when they put dead or suffering fish on display?


----------



## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

afremont said:


> Personally, I'd euthanize my fish before giving them to any Petco store around here. I already have 9 out of 11 dwarf gouramis that I rescued from one local store. They were letting the fish suffer, die and then be devoured by the other fish. Yesterday I was in a different local store I hadn't been in before getting a bucket and air pump and there were mouldy dead bettas in plastic tubs. There were also dead fish in tanks, and very sick fish including a dwarf gourami that had ick real bad. I wanted to take him and fix him up, but I need to find good homes for the ones I have. I think the angel fish is getting the best possible care it's going to receive unless she finds someone very nearby that can safely transport him. What kind of care is a fish in the "back room" going to receive when they put dead or suffering fish on display?



There are 2 Petco stores here, One I wouldn't deal with in any way. The other I would try to rehome a fish at, if I didn't have another option. I am sure it depends much on the current employees. The other option would be to post a sign on their rescue board. Many pet stores have those.


----------



## kadieradcliffe (Jan 21, 2012)

I live in englad and don't have a petco. 
I have 2 pet shops near me.
1 didn't pay attention at all and changed the subject.
And the other one tried the best they couldn't but they can't take him in.

Would you suggest euthanzining him?
As he is getting worse.
And if yes which method is the best?


----------



## TheresaMcMurrough (Jan 27, 2012)

You have to have a filter to build up the good bacteria. I do not know how an Angelfish has survived this long without one. The filter is the heart of any Aquarium. You need to immediately get your hands on a filter. Do you have anyone in your area with a established tank. You could use their filter cartridge or even a piece of it to establish some sort of balance. I would suggest you never do a 100% water change with an Angelfish. They are to sensitive to temp and water conditions. Good luck and keep trying. Doing to many things at once could be making the situation worse.


----------



## afremont (Nov 17, 2011)

She has an undergravel filter.


----------

