# My cycling tank is in real trouble!



## prg9483 (Jul 19, 2008)

Please help! 
1. Size of aquarium (# of gallons) 20
2. Is your aquarium setup freshwater or brackish water? freshwater
3. How long the aquarium has been set up? 3 weeks on Monday
4. What fish and how many are in the aquarium (species are important to know) 4 female bettas, 4 platies, and 1 UD cat
5. Are there live plants in the aquarium? some floating wisteria something or other
6. What temperature is the tank water currently? 79 degrees
7. What make/model filter are you using? Top Fin 20
8. Are you using a CO2 unit? no
9. Does your aquarium receive natural sunlight at any given part of the day? very slight amount
10. When did you perform your last water exchange, and how much water was changed? last Sunday-25%
11. How often do you perform water changes? once a week
12. How often and what foods do you feed your fish? twice a day, and a combination of flake, pellets and either freeze dried or frozen tubifex, blood worms, brine shrimp or daphnia (I use a different one each time, not all of them at one time) and with the flakes and pellets I use one or the other, not both at the same time.
13. What type of lighting are you using and how long is it kept on? flourescent-4-6 hrs daily
14. What specific concerns bring you here at this time? I have lost 3 fish now and my ammonia levels have sky-rocketed
15. What are your water parameters? Test your pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. nitrate=0, nitrite=0, GH=75, KH=300, pH=8.4, ammonia=6.0
16. What test kit are you using and is it liquid or test strips? test strips
17. When was the last time you bought a fish and how did they behave while in the pet store tank? 2 weeks ago, and they were fine...acted like normal, happy, healthy fish.

I am just very concerned about the ammonia levels. Why is the ammonia high, and the nitrate and nitrite levels staying at 0? I know that this is just cycling tank right now, and that the fish that I put in there were for the purposes of cycling only, but I still hate to see them die. Knowing that it may be something I'm doing or have done. 

Little-Fizz suggested small daily water changes, but I haven't had the chance yet. Thank you for the advice Little-Fizz, sorry that I haven't taken it yet. I am getting ready to do that this morning. But being that the ammonia is so high, should I do more than a small water change? If so, how much?

Help from you experts is greatly appreciated, and my fish will love you too!
Patty


----------



## Little-Fizz (Aug 19, 2007)

:? Hm well its hard to say really... Because your using test strips we don't really know where your ammonias at right now. Like you could go out and get a liquid test kit, come home and test, and your ammonia might only be .25. If you get what I'm saying :wink: You need a liquid test kit.... I also just noticed your pH is like really high(again only if your test strips are telling the truth, and that doesn't happen often).

If your tanks been cycling for three weeks now and your only doing weekly water changes with that many fish in there, then theres no way you have no nitrite readings. I wish I could give you some solid advice right now but I can't really tell you anything until I know for sure your water parameters are. So if you can I would recommend getting an API liquid master test kit with ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and pH. Then we will know for sure whats going on with your tank. 

But a water change isn't a bad idea right now. I wouldn't change to much, say 25%? It will be enough to make your fish a little more comfortable.


----------



## beweeb (May 18, 2008)

test strips are very inacurite :evil:


----------



## prg9483 (Jul 19, 2008)

Liquid is better? Okay...I will head there tomorrow...in the meantime I have done a 25% water change, and will see how things go. I also lost another fish, that makes 4 fish lost now. 
As for the pH, I am on well water, and I assume that is the reason for the high pH. I keep adding pH down...but to no avail. I do have a liquid pH test kit, but have just been using the test strips. I will use the liquid test from now on.
Thanks,
Patty


----------



## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

It's good that your getting a liquid test kit...much more accurate than the strips. Since your tank is cycling with fish I would do partial water changes at least every 2-3 days depending on the readings. Also, cut back the feedings to only once a day and make sure it all gets eaten. Excess food will contribute to your ammonia problem.

If your ammonia really is at 6ppm then you'll need to do a couple massive water changes to get it down to a bearable level for your fish.


----------



## prg9483 (Jul 19, 2008)

Okay, I used my liquid pH test kit and the pH level is 7.6. Does that sound better to you Little-Fizz? 
Tomorrow I will go buy a Master Test Kit and post the readings. I added RO and ultra violet filtered water after taking out 25% today, hopefully that will help out. It's using up my drinking water, but that's okay, if I can save some of my fish it's worth it.
Thanks
Patty


----------



## Little-Fizz (Aug 19, 2007)

prg9483 said:


> Okay, I used my liquid pH test kit and the pH level is 7.6. Does that sound better to you Little-Fizz?


Yes!! That sounds way better! I'll be away for most of the day tomorrow but I hope to be around for when you get your liquid test kit. I have a feeling it will tell us differently then your strips have been reading. 

Sorry to hear about your loss. Hopefully it won't happen again :wink:


----------



## prg9483 (Jul 19, 2008)

Okay, so here are the results from the master test kit:
Ammonia=between 2.0 & 4.0
Nitrite-=0
Nitrate=0
pH=7.6

So the test strips weren't so far off the mark. So now I'm really confused. How can my ammonia be so high and the nitrate & nitrite levels be 0?


----------



## prg9483 (Jul 19, 2008)

On a good note...my fish look like they feel a lot better, AND I haven't lost any in the last 24 hours. 

I was wondering...I have some rocks in my tank that did not come from a pet store...they came from my back yard. I DID soak them before hand and scrub them VERY WELL and they do not, nor ever have bubbled or anything...but could they be contributing to my ammonia levels? What about that live wisteria plant stuff that I have floating on the surface? It came with my bettas, and I was assured that it has been growing in my friends tanks for a long time. Should I remove that stuff (the rocks and plants)?


----------



## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

Don't worry about the rocks or the plant. They won't contribute to the ammonia problem. Your tank is only 3 weeks old so it is still in the beginnings of the cycle. Ammonia shows up first, then nitrite, then nitrate. That's why you have an ammonia reading but not nitrite or nitrate yet. Ammonia between 2-4ppm is still very lethal to fish so I would do at least a 50% change now and then another 50% later tonight. Try to get the ammonia down to about .25-.5ppm. Since you have fish in the tank it will take longer to cycle because you need to do water changes often to keep it bearable for the fish. Don't rinse your filter cartridge or vacuum the gravel too much. Feed the fish lightly once per day. Don't add anymore fish either until the tank is fully cycled. It may take 6-8 weeks or longer for your tank to cycle. Patience is key. Good luck!


----------



## prg9483 (Jul 19, 2008)

Okay, 50% water change done! Let's see what happens next!
Thanks, jeaninel...my fish say thanks too!
:wink: 
Patty


----------



## prg9483 (Jul 19, 2008)

Okay, after two 50% water changes on Sunday, a 25% water change on Monday, and a 25% water change tonight, my ammonia reads between 1.0 and 2.0. That still means stress, right? Why can't I seem to get it lower?


----------



## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

Try changing 50% next few changes. You have quite a few fish in there for a new tank so it's probably a struggle to keep up with the waste they're producing. How big is the UD cat?

You might also want to test your tap water to see if there's any ammonia right out of the tap.


----------



## prg9483 (Jul 19, 2008)

about 1 3/8" maybe...why?


----------



## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

Upside-down catfish (assuming you've got S. nigriventis and not another species of synodontis, which are sometimes sold as upside-down catfish) can get up to 5 inches long. A 20g tank is fine for them but a 5" fish would produce a lot more waste than a smaller fish, which could be contributing heavily to your ammonia problem. Since he's so small I don't think that's a big problem.

You're seeing firsthand the effects of "New Tank Syndrome" - where an uncycled tank is heavily stocked and the fish suffer from elevated ammonia levels. Now that you've got the appropriate test kit, keep an eye on those ammonia levels and keep changing the water if your ammonia gets above 0.5 ppm. Really, keeping below 0.25 ppm would be ideal as any amount of ammonia is harmful to your fish. After a while, you should start getting readings for nitrite. Nitrite is very harmful to your fish as well, so you'll need to keep your nitrite levels below 0.5 ppm (below 0.25 ppm would be even better). Eventually, your ammonia and nitrite will stay at zero on their own but nitrate levels will slowly build up. The nitrate is also bad for your fish but they can tolerate much higher levels. Once you get to this stage, your tank is cycled. You still have to do water changes to keep the nitrates in check (anything above 40 ppm is bad, but it's best to try to keep them below 20 ppm). 

Since your aquarium is fairly heavily stocked, you will need to do a lot of water changes during the cycle in order to keep your fish alive. This will prolong your cycle, but otherwise you'd have even more dead fish. You shouldn't need to use RO water unless you've got big problems with your tap water. A good water conditioner should remove chlorine, chloramine, heavy metals and ammonia from your tap water. 

Also - how much are you feeding the fish at each feeding? Uneaten food can produce a ton of ammonia in your tank. Trust me - fish are worse than dogs when it comes to begging and I definitely own more than one fish that would keep eating everything in site until their little bellies popped. However, fish are cold blooded animals and can survive on much less food than you'd expect.


----------



## girlofgod (Aug 22, 2006)

sounds to me like your tank is cycling, and doing water changes everyday is going to prolong the process, not help it, IMO. (except for the fact that there are so many fish) not to mention, why are you cycling your tank with bettas? the platys will be fine, but i cant say the same for the bettas or UDC...you probably should have held off on them until after your tank was established. you only need one or two fish to cycle a tank. when your tank is cycling, the ammonia will spike (which will result in the death of any sensitive fish in your tank  ), and which is why you are having the high readings. i'm not sure about anyone else, but i might take the bettas out, and put them in another container, bowl, tank etc, until that tank is cycled, and then add them back to the main tank. my betta survived for years in an unfiltered bowl until I got into fish tanks and decided to put her in a bigger tank. someone else might have better advice for you..sorry. :?


----------



## Kim (Apr 30, 2008)

The water changes are a must. As long as there is some ammonia, the tank will continue to cycle. The higher levels will just result in more fish deaths. Putting the bettas in bowls would help them survive, but you would have to do water changes every couple days or ammonia could build up in there too. I agree with everything iamntbatmat said. It is good advice. Good luck.


----------



## prg9483 (Jul 19, 2008)

Thank you everyone for your help. I have been doing everything you have told me, but ALL of my bettas died today. Came home from work and they were all dead. The reason I was cycling the tank with them, was that I was told that they were very hardy fish (from the breeder), and that she never even cycled her tanks before putting them in, just started them up. I told you that I have never dealt with bettas before, only cichlids. I had no idea how to care for them. The platies were an after-thought.
Anyway, I have learned a very harsh lesson. I took the water down 50% again tonight, and the platies are doing great. Looking for food as always. 
As for the feeding, yes, I have cut the food way back, and down to one time a day. I even go so far as to not feed at all on Sunday. 
I hope that my UD cat is okay...she hides out all the time, and I only see her once in a while. Hard to monitor how she's doing if I don't see her. 

Again, thanks for your help. I will keep you posted. It's just the Mafia (platies) left in the tank now (oh, and the UD cat), so maybe it won't be as bad.
Patty


----------



## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

Oh, so sorry to hear that! Hard lesson learned.

As for your UD cat, I believe they are nocturnal so that may be why you don't see her often. Also, they're pretty shy when they're not with more of their kind.

Best of luck with the rest of your cycle.


----------



## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

Bettas are hardy fish, but unfortunately many of them come from the store in pretty rough shape. They've been through shipping and prolonged stays in small containers. Two out of three bettas I've owned came home from the store with pretty bad fin rot. It sounds like the stress of the aquarium cycle dealt the final blow. 

Keeping up with water changes to keep your ammonia and nitrite levels down is the way to go, though like others have said it will likely prolong your cycle. I can't promise that you won't lose anymore fish, but I can say that if you keep the fish exposed to high levels of ammonia and nitrite you certainly will lose more fish.

I think a lot of people get the wrong impression with these kinds of posts, like we're getting on your case. I hope I'm not coming across as doing that. Everyone makes mistakes when they get started. Those mistakes are a learning experience, and it's much better to learn exactly what's going wrong than to give up on the hobby or do what the pet store wants you to do: keep replacing those fish and buying more quick-fixes without really addressing the problem.


----------



## prg9483 (Jul 19, 2008)

Oh no, you guys aren't coming across that way at all. If my aunt were still here, she would be telling me exactly the same thing. So, no worries here. 
As for the UD cat, EVENTUALLY I will buy her some playmates, but that will be down the road when my tank has finally cycled.
Thanks again, for all of your help. I will keep you informed on my progress.
Patty


----------

