# Blood parrot sinking to the bottom emergency



## twoinchina (Mar 6, 2007)

Hello, 

i have been trying to fight this for a while on my own, then went to the LFS that has continuously helped me in the past and heard "can't help him, just get a new fish"  

First of all, tank set-up currently around 30 gallons, still filling up after the move (max 50), 3 or 4 gallon canister filter, oxygen pump, 3 blood parrots, a fish that looks like a flower horn but without a horn :S, 3 plecos and 4 little bala sharks. 

Now, water parameters (as of today): General hardness through the roof, carbonate hardness 0, PH 6.0, nitrites 0, nitrates around 40 to 80, trying to get them lower. Water temp 28-30 celcius.

So here's what's wrong with the fish now: one side - some scales missing (from being picked on), a little piece of skin missing (still don't know what caused that, but we've lost other fish to somthing similar), sitting on the bottom of the tank, sometimes laying on the side, breathing heavily. 

My LFS knew what to do till I told them that even despite the pitiful condition, the fish still eats! He struggles to the top and eats, and then drops to the botom.

I tried the yellow powder medication (forgot what it's called but its for external injuries), tried 'fish bacterial killer', but he seems worse every day.

Now, he's been like this for a month, and getting worse, I isolated him to make sure the bigger parrots don't pick on him (same tank, glass barrier), but he so wanted to get out of there, I let him out a few times. The bigger parrots picked on him some more, after which I isolated him again. How the big parrtos are spawning, and I'm definitely not letting him out again just now. 

What is it that can cause a fish to drop to the bottom? He's never been upside down, just laying on the bottom straight up or on the side.

No slime, no clamped fins. Gills seem a bit protruded, but he's pretty much always looked like that. 

Any advice will be appreciated.

Thank you for reading this far
Have a good day


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

twoinchina said:


> Hello,
> 
> First of all, tank set-up currently around 30 gallons, still filling up after the move (max 50), 3 or 4 gallon canister filter, oxygen pump, 3 blood parrots, a fish that looks like a flower horn but without a horn :S, 3 plecos and 4 little bala sharks.
> 
> Now, water parameters (as of today): General hardness through the roof, carbonate hardness 0, PH 6.0, nitrites 0, nitrates around 40 to 80, trying to get them lower. Water temp 28-30 celcius.



Well, the first problem I see is that the tank is way too small for all those fish, and the nitrate levels indicate that. High nitrate levels over a period of time will cause internal damage, and it can be permanent injury. The fact that the other fish are picking on him only makes the situation worse.

The problems with carbonate hardness and general hardness are also likely due to the high nitrate level, and that is also likely lowering the pH. What is the pH in the tap water being used in the tank for water changes? The only solutions here are going to be to get a much larger tank asap, and get those nitrate levels down asap! Daily water changes with plenty of gravel vacs should help to decrease the nitrate level.

What test kits are you using? Nitrates 40 - 80 is an awful wide range... and there is no param posted for ammonia, we'll need to know that, too.

When the fish comes up for food, is he swimming normally? When he drops back to the bottom, does he appear to be struggling to stay up higher in the tank? How big are these fish? How long since you moved them and set the tank back up?


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## twoinchina (Mar 6, 2007)

First of all, thank you for answering, you have helped us out in the past too, thanks again.

the fish, in short, struggles when swimming.

its like his floating is only in the fins, he has to work them a lot to swim upwards and eat, but he does every time I feed the fish. whenever the fins stop working, he drops like a rock.

Nitrates are bad, I know, we are fighting them, adding another 5 gallons tonight. As far as water goes, we use canister drinking water (not mineral water) instead of tap water to bypass the chlorine and lime and certain metals. Is it a good choice?

Thank you again


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

A good dechlorinator such as prime or amquel-plus will treat your tap water and make it safe for fish. drinking water or ro water is ok to use as part of your tanks water but they lack the trace elemnts needed by fish and plants. Your nitrates can be lowered by thoroughly vaccuming the bottom of your tank withvaccum sold at fish stores and walmart. Changing water without vaccuming the bottom will only bring temporary improvement.You can cut down on feeding as well. Uneaten food on the bottom will over time increase ammonia and nitrates. I would probably keep up with water changes and do away with drinking water and also vaccum the bottom weekly after giving it a good cleaning now. Do not go too deep with vaccum in such a new tank


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

1077 said:


> A good dechlorinator such as prime or amquel-plus will treat your tap water and make it safe for fish. drinking water or ro water is ok to use as part of your tanks water but they lack the trace elemnts needed by fish and plants. Your nitrates can be lowered by thoroughly vaccuming the bottom of your tank withvaccum sold at fish stores and walmart. Changing water without vaccuming the bottom will only bring temporary improvement.You can cut down on feeding as well. Uneaten food on the bottom will over time increase ammonia and nitrates. I would probably keep up with water changes and do away with drinking water and also vaccum the bottom weekly after giving it a good cleaning now. Do not go too deep with vaccum in such a new tank


There is nothing wrong with using bottled drinking water, other than you may encounter a phosphate issue over time, which will help to grow algae. The way that drinking water is filtered isn't much different than a home filtration unit... and there should be no risk in using it all the time. You'll just want to stay away from distilled water, which is too pure and doesn't contain enough mineral content to sustain fish or plants.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

I apologize betta baby and to original poster.. I understood that drinking water was being used to avoid chlorine. Drinking water in some areas also contains chlorine as well as chlorimine does it not? I thought perhaps dechlorinator would allow them to kill two birds with one stone .They could use tap water which is cheaper and remove the afore mentioned chlorine as well as other harmful metals.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Please add to previous post... after searching various websites some consider using bottled water only if you know your Tap water is dangerous Bottled water is often not regulated or tested, so water parameters are unknown. Also bottled water often has vitamins, presevatives,colors, flavors ,or other additives that can be harmful to your fish. Freshly purified water also has almost no oxygen content and should be aerated for an hour if not more before using in an aquarium.  .


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

1077, I'm not sure where you're getting your information from... but most of it is very inaccurate. Please don't trust just anything you read online... I have heard and seen some very strange things from people who don't know the first thing about what they claim to....

Bottled water content is dependent on the type of water it is. The best one to use is spring water, but that can also be misleading. Not all bottled water is filtered the same way, but it is not dangerous to the fish except for distilled water being used straight. 
Bottled water has been used for fish for many years now, and I have never heard of it causing harm to any fish... except for those who use purely distilled water, which is too pure. 
Bottled waters do not tend to contain chlorine or chloramine, and is why most people use them even for themselves as drinking water. They can contain nitrate levels, and phosphate levels, again, dependent on the type of filtration being used on them... but then so can tap water and well water, too. 
To know for sure, simply run the water testing on one of the bottles of water, or call the company to ask for a stats sheet on their particular brand. That is something each and every company has, its just a matter of getting it from them.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

twoinchina said:


> First of all, thank you for answering, you have helped us out in the past too, thanks again.
> 
> the fish, in short, struggles when swimming.
> 
> ...


Now, back to the original problem... I didn't mean to ignore it, I've been having internet problems with the big storms that have come through, and I got cut off before I was able to get back to this post.

It sounds as if this fish is suffering from swim bladder damage, but to what extent and if its permanent there is no way for anyone to predict. The best thing for it would be to move to a quarantine tank, see if you can get it to eat a few pieces of epsom salts, and watch him closely for a few days. It is very possible that the damage is permanent, and more extensive than just swim bladder. Unfortunately, that is the effects nitrates can have on fish, and why I work so hard to get people to clean up their tanks... and to help prevent this sort of thing in the first place. 
Considering the size of the tank and the inhabitants, don't be surprised if getting nitrates under control turns out to be near impossible... that is the price we pay for overstocking a tank... or not working with a tank large enough for the fish in it. Fish grow rapidly in most cases, and while we can't visibly see each growth spurt, it makes a huge difference in the water quality. The fact that only nitrates are high tells us that there is plenty of bacteria in there to handle the waste and break it down... just no way to keep enough of it out safely to keep the tank balanced. The end solution here is still going to be the same as I stated in my first post here... they need a much larger tank.
For 3 - 4 blood parrots alone, 150 - 200 gallons will be mandatory if those fish are going to live and be healthy. If they are large enough to spawn, then they shouldn't even fit into a 50 gallon tank.... full grown these fish average about 10 inches each! Maturity says nothing about size, however... so if nitrates have been high for a long time, then growth may have been stunted... and anything strong enough to stunt growth is strong enough to cause internal damage. The evidence is in the sick fish at present... and if not taken care of, the others will only follow in that fate.

I'm sorry that probably isn't what you wanted to hear, but when I answer threads here, I am brutally honest for the sake of the fish... and for people's sanity. 

For a temporary fix, I would strongly suggest another strong filter on that tank, and in it plenty of polyfilter (if you need a link I can get that for you, Dr's Foster & Smith sells it). Polyfilter can be a lifesaver, and will soak up the nitrates and other pollutants almost overnight in most cases. Polyfilter can't be used long term, though... it will suck too much of the needed elements out of the water if used for prolonged periods of time, and will also cause pH to bottom out quickly... which is just as deadly to your fish. This is a temporary fix only, meant to buy you a wk or 2 to figure out what you will do for a long term solution.
Best of luck to you, if you need more help, please ask!


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## twoinchina (Mar 6, 2007)

First of all, thank you everyone who posted here.

The drinking water we use is chlorine-free (or so they say) and is spring water. The tap water was recommended by the LFS as a cheaper alternative, and we tried it in one of our tanks, but the mineral content is so high the glass frosted and we couldn't see the fish. So, bottled water it is.

2 days ago i added some water stabilizer with a couple of gallons of water, and a weekly portion of nitro-bacteria and yesterday 4+ more gallons of clean water, and the lil parrot seems to be swimming with a bit more energy. Maybe just a coincidence, but it's good. 

Bettababy thank you for your advice, whether its something we did or didn't want to hear, its true and shall be said. We will vacuum the bottom more rigorously and try to fight the nitrates by more frequent water changes. The filter you mentioned might not be available here (China), but we'll check. Would you suggest less gravel would help collect less waste? We don't have plants in the tank, just rocks, so maybe gravel isn't that needed. Parrots dig it around anyways. 

As far as size of the fish goes, the biggest is the flower horn without a horn  4 inches, the male spawning parrot is 3+ inches, his mate - 3 inches, bala sharks around 4 inches, plecos - around the same size. The sick lil parrot is around 2.5 inches. 

Not sure about the nitrates effect on growth, in LFS the parrots spawn at the same size, so maybe it's just an early breeding variety (i might be wrong). These are the sterile type (i don't know if there's a fertile type of blood parrots), they spawn, guard their eggs, then eat them when the eggs go bad. 

Question - you said there might be damage to the sick fish swimming bladder. In case it's permanent, can the fish survive? In case it's possible to cure, what cures are there? 

Thank you again.


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## twoinchina (Mar 6, 2007)

*epsom salt*

i'll check with the LFS for Epsom salts today, but - without a quarrantine tank - , is it ok to try to feed the fish the salts in the community tank? 

They are sepatared - the flower-horn (?) cichlid, the sick parrot and 1 pleco - from the breeding parrots, otherwise they fight all the time! There's a glass barrier with holes for waterflow (and it's constantly under attack). Never happened like this before while breeding. Maybe the stress of the move and close quarters for a while are the reason.

I heard that common plecos are extra susceptible to salts and other chemicals, can epsom salts affect the plecos? 

If it's ok to try to feed the sick fish the salts in the isolated part of the community tank, how do you feed them to him? :S Never attempted anything of the sort. Hand feeding would probably be difficult :S he'd just swim away. Bettababy, what would you suggest?

thank you


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

For starters, you *don't* want to feed the epsom salts in the main tank. The pleco will be sensitive to salt, but even more so those bala sharks. The salts can burn their skin... cause all sorts of problems.

Again, I have to say, that even at their sizes, that is too many fish in that size of a tank, and they can't stay there. Balas get 14 inches full grown... forgot to mention those earlier. 

There are a few places that are spawning parrots successfully, but I couldn't tell you where exactly they are or how to get them. It's not common, and the way I understand it, they're also quite a bit more expensive. 

All I can tell you now is that the longer those fish stay in that tank together, the worse things are going to get... and nobody is going to be able to help you. Removing the gravel or even part of it will only deplete your bacteria culture, which will make waste problems more severe much faster. Then to go with the nitrate levels, you will also likely have ammonia and nitrite to go with it, and those are both much more toxic than nitrate.

I'm not sure what other products to tell you to try using to soak up that nitrate level quicker... I'm not sure what is available in China. Even carbon would be better than using nothing... and the more of it there is the faster it will help... but it needs to be changed every 3 - 4 wks, especially with levels that are so high and will be so constant. If you can't find the polyfilter, try looking for purapad or nitrate sponge. Any of those would also help reduce nitrates faster than water changes alone.

Please remember that this will buy you only a short period of time before the problem again worsens, and that will continue until the end result is death... and considering the animals in there, it could very easily be a case of losing everything or near everything in a matter of days. 

There is no treatment for permanent swim bladder damage, and it will reduce the life of the fish by quite a lot. Everytime that fish has to try to swim against what is happening inside of him, the stress and struggle will worsen... which will weaken him further. With poor water conditions and cramped quarters... and other fish who are likely to pick on him any chance they get... (even the pleco will eventually turn on him) moving him to a quarantine tank is about the only hope I can offer to you. Feeding epsom salts is quite easy... feed it like pellet food, and do so before offering any other food for that day so he's hungry enough to take what you put in there. The epsom salts will sink, so drop them over where the fish is laying, as near to his mouth as you can get them. If you can get him to eat 2 - 3 pieces, that should help a little. If the damage is permanent, then the salts won't hurt him, but they won't make any changes for the better, either. 

Let me know if there's anything more I can do to help...


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Bettababy, Sorry If I am coming off as combative for that was not my Intent. I have used RO water as well as bottled water to make up a portion of water in my aquariums during boil orders which happen infrequently in my part of the country. The websites visited were ..National Resources Defense Council. EPA, and World Wildlife Fund. I simply did search for Filtration methods of bottled Water Industry, along with search of regulations on filtration of bottled water. Many bottled water companys use micron filtration,UVsterilization, and Reverse Osmosis in order to legally claim that the water is Pure. When in fact nearly forty percent of bottled water is actually bottled tap water.It is therefore why I suggested that bottled water would in my opinion, be ok for portion of water in a aquarium ,but should not be only source. I would urge you to do similar search with all due respect, before you declare my observations as inaccurate.


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## twoinchina (Mar 6, 2007)

*epsom salts*

I went to all the LFS in the viscinity, no epsom salts, never heard of them. Asked also for a test kit, only PH test kits available. 
(the one we have now - paper strip version - has been brought from the US, and there's only a few left in there).

As far as fish go, we are considering a bigger tank as they grow, but it's not a possibility right now unfortunately 

We'll check for nitrate filters online and keep up the vacuuming and water changes.

Question: if we quarantine the sick parrot - with no quarrantine tank currently available, what should be done before the fish can be put in there? Doesn't it need to be cycled? With no epsom salts, are there any other alternatives to treat the fish?

Thank you


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## kisumi (Mar 19, 2008)

Go to your local pharmacy....

Epsom salt is used for a variety of stuff........


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## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

Yeah, CVS, the supermarket, all sell epsom salt. It's a commonly used laxative and antibacterial soak for humans and will probably run you about $2.


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