# Tropical Fish Food - Take 2



## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

This is an extension to the thread on fish food brands...

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-aquarium/food-brand-question-86137/

But I did not want to hijack that thread.
Before we get going here, I'm feeling long winded, so get a favorite beverage or run away now ;-)

I did some research and some thinking and even got into a somewhat unsavory discussion on another forum with a fellow who felt the fish food he uses is the only food anyone with any sense should use. When I suggested that there was more than one quality fish food in the world, he went off and it wasn't pretty.

First, lets rethink fish meal which is often the first item in the fish food ingredient list. The fish meal is most often made from pieces parts and/or low quality fish that can't be used in food grade consumption. There may be many reasons for this (euu). This alone makes it a somewhat lower quality. The fish are ground, dried to powder, preservatives added and it goes on a warehouse shelf until it's ordered by a fish food manufacturer...where it's combined with other ingredients *, more preservatives, flaked or pelletized and dried, then sets in another warehouse until it gets to a store to sit on their shelves until you buy it and start feeding your fish. Sounds pretty bad huh?
* Often, we'll see some kind of starch in the form of flour or gluten not too far down in the ingredient list. The starch is a necessary binder and it elevates the crude protein in the analysis. It's not really all that good for our fish. 
Slightly higher quality fish foods will use whole fish meals. These at least are meals made from potentially inferior fish, but the whole fish rather than parts.
Even higher quality foods will use whole fish and/or whole fish that are food grade - the same fish we would buy in the store to cook for dinner (okay, I haven't had herring or krill lately, but you know what I mean.)
Salmon, cod, herring, krill, shrimp...
Okay, so once we get past the fishy business, we come to the other additives like greens (kelp, algae and processed garden vegetables) vitamins, minerals, natural and artificial colors and preservatives....and things none of us need/want to know about.

So the lower quality (and frankly cheaper) foods will have fish meal as the first ingredient. Not too far down in the list will be some type of flour or gluten. Here is a side by side ingredient list of three major high quality fish foods New Life Spectrum, Omega One and Hikari (First Bites):

New Life Spectrum:
Whole Antarctic Krill Meal, Whole Herring Meal, Wheat Flour, Whole Squid Meal, Algae Meal, Soybean Isolate, Beta Carotene, Spirulina, Garlic, Vegetable and Fruit Extract (Spinach, Broccoli, Red Pepper, Zucchini, Tomato, Pea, Red and Green Cabbage, Apple, Apricot, Mango, Kiwi, Papaya, Peach, Pear), Vitamin A Acetate, D-Activated Animal-Sterol (D3), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine, DL Alphatocophero ( E ), Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Niacin, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, L-Ascorby-2-Polyphosphate (Stable C), Ethylenediamine dihydroiodide, Cobalt Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Choline Chloride.

Omega One:
Whole Salmon, Halibut, Black Cod, Whole Herring , Whole Shrimp, Whole Krill, Wheat Flour, Wheat Gluten, Fresh Kelp, Lecithin, Astaxanthin, L-Ascorbyl-2-Phosphate (Source of Vitamin C), Natural and Artificial Colors, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin, Niacin, Pantothenic Acid, Folic Acid, Biotin, Inositol, Tocopherol (Preservative),
Ethoxyquin (Preservative)

Hikari First Bites:
Fish Meal, wheat flour, krill meal, soybean meal, brewers dried yeast, dried seaweed meal, spinulina, rice, bran, garlic, DL-methionne, choline cloride, vitamin E supplement, L-ascorbic-2-polyphosphate (stablized vitamin C), inositol, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, vitamin A oil, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, niacin, menadone sodium bisulfate complex (source of vitamin K), folic acid, vitamin D3 supplement, biolin, disodium phosphate, ferrous sulfate, magnesium sulfate, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, cobalt sulfate, calcium iodate.

Strictly based on the ingredients, New Life Spectrum gets high marks for using whole fish meals, but they are [still] meals and flour is high in the list. Hikari (First Bites) is using just plain (whoknowswhatsinit) fish meal followed by flour. Omega One would seem to get the highest marks using whole Alaskan fish, although they also use flour/gluten as a binder.

My research also uncovered a fellow hobbyist that many years ago began making his own fish foods and a few years ago began selling same. He uses fresh food grade fish and no flour or gluten. 
I have ordered some and am axious to give it a try. Have a look at: 
Almost Natural Tropical Fish Food

There are many other quality fish foods, the above are merely examples. I suppose we shouldn't be too hard on foods based on fish meal. Then again, when I get eggs, I want fresh....farm fresh, not powdered eggs loaded with preservatives that have been on a shelf for months. 
I also don't want to get all high and mighty and spend a fortune on fish food. But if we can, why not feed them the very best we can?
It seems to me that in addition to water quality, the highest quality fish food will promote the best health, vitality, color and breeding.

What do you think?


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

Just so it is clear, I am not affiliated in any way, with any fish food company or producer - just a (perhaps temporarily obsessed) TF hobbyist like you ;-)


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

I agree...that like any pet, one is responsible for maintaining the animal's health and well being, even if it is "just a fish". To me that means feeding the best food you can afford. And as much as I don't want to sound like I am on a high horse or anything...I feel that if a person can't afford a decent quality food product for their pet, they really have no business having it. I don't mean that you should have to spend $20 a month on fish food or $50 for 20 pounds of all natural organic dog food...but really, $5-6 for a can of decent quality food like Omega One that could last a very long time is the least you can do to help ensure the health and quality of life for the fish you made the commitment to keep.


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## DKRST (Jan 11, 2011)

Nice work putting the info together - thanks!
All large companies do research on their products and conduct actual taste-testing and body weight gain experiments. Certainly they have to balance ingredients with cost and profit margins. Frankly, almost any recently unsealed flake food (typical "name brands") will likely give you very small differences in fish growth rates (although the differences may be statistically significant).
I'm not wiling to pay more for "organic" that scientifically, is not necessarily any better. Show me the data, and I'll believe the quality and results difference, but I'll still balance cost with benefit when purchasing food!

If you want the "farm-fresh egg" version of fish food, it's best to do what nature does, feed live foods! Not a lot of wild fish flakes swimming out in nature :lol:


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## zof (Apr 23, 2010)

Very interesting read, actually as of late I've moved to omega one food away from some of the cheaper brands. Anyone got some good made at home fish food recipes?


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

DKRST said:


> Nice work putting the info together - thanks!
> All large companies do research on their products and conduct actual taste-testing and body weight gain experiments. Certainly they have to balance ingredients with cost and profit margins. Frankly, almost any recently unsealed flake food (typical "name brands") will likely give you very small differences in fish growth rates (although the differences may be statistically significant).
> I'm not wiling to pay more for "organic" that scientifically, is not necessarily any better. Show me the data, and I'll believe the quality and results difference, but I'll still balance cost with benefit when purchasing food!
> 
> If you want the "farm-fresh egg" version of fish food, it's best to do what nature does, feed live foods! Not a lot of wild fish flakes swimming out in nature :lol:


I dunno DKRST, I suppose you gotta ask if the fifty cents or a buck more for an ounce of higher quality food is worth it. But what if it does improve growth rates, increase activity, produce more vibrant colors, increase breeding, brood size, brood health & fry mortality rates, decrease disease and increase life span?

You're correct, if we truly wish to copy nature, we'd have to raise all manner of different insects and worms and such... about the same time we stop getting groceries at the store and hunt and gather ;-)
For us, a better analogy might be more like putting down the twinkie and eating some vegetables.

Unfortunately the only way we can see any benefit is if we take the plunge and switch to a higher quality food for say three months. If we don't notice improvements in appearance, overall health and well being, we switch back to the cheap fish meal and filler stuff and save that dollar or two a month.


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

I've moved away from the more expensive brands to the cheaper brands lol. I'll be out of hikari completely in about a week. I have a whole container of NLS but my fish won't touch it. Very shortly they will all be eating ken's fish food as their only daily food. All my breeding fish have been on this stuff for a year already. Its only the smaller fish that eat the hikari. My wild caught panda garras also do great on the cheaper foods. Most the stuff I buy is around $2.50 for a 1/2 pound plus shipping, last time I bought 3 different kinds so 1.5 pounds lol. I just keep most of it in my freezer and refill my little food vial when it runs out. 

I feed prepared foods almost exclusively. Most my fish only get frozen or any other kind of food once a week. Even raising my rainbow fry I'm sticking with entirely prepared foods. I have BS eggs but can't manage the effort to hatch them. BBS are also too big for newly hatched fry anyway. They eat some fancy powder thats 5-50 microns in size. Then its a great day when they graduate to bigger food and I can stop feeding them dust with a toothpick.


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

Mikaila31 said:


> I've moved away from the more expensive brands to the cheaper brands lol. I'll be out of hikari completely in about a week. I have a whole container of NLS but my fish won't touch it. Very shortly they will all be eating ken's fish food as their only daily food. All my breeding fish have been on this stuff for a year already. Its only the smaller fish that eat the hikari. My wild caught panda garras also do great on the cheaper foods. Most the stuff I buy is around $2.50 for a 1/2 pound plus shipping, last time I bought 3 different kinds so 1.5 pounds lol. I just keep most of it in my freezer and refill my little food vial when it runs out.


You raise a good point Mikaila - as near as I can tell, Ken's fish food uses fish meal and flour/gluten just like NLS and Hikari, but he just sells it much cheaper. It may be a lower quality fish meal and more filler? Higher volume? lower profit margin?: 

fish meal, brewers dried yeast, soy flour. Oat flour, corn gluten meal, shrimp meal, dried plankton, dried spirulina algae, dried kelp, lecithin, vitamin supplements a, d3, b12, biotin, thiamine (source of vitamin b1), natural coloring, ascorbic acid (source of vitamin c).

(Like Hikari First Bites, not sure why brewers yeast is the 2nd largest ingredient.)


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## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

I love your curiosity and all the effort you've put into research! Fantastic!

Me? I've worked in small animal medicine for a while, and see the consequences of nutritional choices. I know there are a lot of differences between species, and I'm not super education on fish nutrition... but I know that good in equals good out, no way around it. I guess the question is- how do we tell what is good enough? I wish that fish food labels had more information so that we could make more educated choices. Say, brand A has 10% WHOLE fish but its riddled with tumors and glows green from toxic waste, 9% gluten, and the rest is smaller amounts of other ingredients that total 81%? And say brand B uses fish MEAL but it makes up 82% of the total product and uses good quality fish for the meal. How do we know the difference? They labels don't tell us.

I dunno. But I love that we've raised these questions and are looking for answers!


(As an aside, I don't know if organic is better for me or for my family or my animals directly, but I think its better for the environment. So I try to choose organic when there's that option. I don't know of any organic fish foods. Are there any?)


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## TwilightGuy (Oct 22, 2011)

AbbeysDad said:


> First, lets rethink fish meal which is often the first item in the fish food ingredient list. The fish meal is most often made from pieces parts and/or low quality fish that can't be used in food grade consumption. There may be many reasons for this (euu). This alone makes it a somewhat lower quality.


Please provide your source for this statement.

The process alone of making meal, fish or otherwise, doesn't make it a low quality end product.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

We eat hot dog's don't we? these are comprised of all sort's of unmentionable part's of animals.
Could be fish meal is comprised of..eyeball's,entrails,fish lips? 
I tend to ignore most of what's on label with respect to fish foods and focus on what the fish need that maybe is not provided otherwise with one or two food's.
Dropped a whole rubbermaid tub of flake yesterday on shag rug.(did manage to scoop up a little,vaccumed the rest.)
Look's like I'm off to replenish today :roll:.


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

TwilightGuy said:


> Please provide your source for this statement.
> 
> The process alone of making meal, fish or otherwise, doesn't make it a low quality end product.






> Fishmeal can be made from almost any type of seafood but is generally manufactured from wild-caught, small marine fish that contain a high percentage of bones and oil, and is usually deemed not suitable for direct human consumption. The fish caught for fishmeal purposes solely are termed “industrial”.


This is what I could find online.. its from wikipedia so take it for what its worth.


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

1077 said:


> We eat hot dog's don't we? these are comprised of all sort's of unmentionable part's of animals.


Imagine what would likely happen if all you ever ate was hot dogs.

Thank-you - that's exactly the point here.


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## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

I know in dog and cat food that it often means lower quality than what's "fit for human consumption". Why would companies pay more for a good ingredient when there's a bunch of waste left over from the human food industry that is much cheaper? Usually if companies go to the expense of using better quality, they'll advertise that in hopes of seeing a return on that investment. I wish I could find more about that re: fish food.

For now I'm sticking with Omega One because I've had good experiences.

But I'm still looking for some documentation. This might take emails to companies, I don't know...


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## TwilightGuy (Oct 22, 2011)

1077 said:


> We eat hot dog's don't we? these are comprised of all sort's of unmentionable part's of animals.
> Could be fish meal is comprised of..eyeball's,entrails,fish lips?


It undoubtedly is but that doesn't make it unfit for fish consumption or even low quality. After all, every time a fish eats another fish it is eating the eyeballs, lips, entrails, and everything else.

Besides that, I guarantee you that in many parts of the world that are impoverished, when they have a fish to eat, the entire fish gets consumed and not just the boneless filet like we do here. (ever hear of fish head soup?)


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## TwilightGuy (Oct 22, 2011)

Jbrofish8 said:


> This is what I could find online.. its from wikipedia so take it for what its worth.


"Fish meal has been widely used as a supplemental protein source for many years primarily for monogastric animals. Two basic types of fish meal are produced; 1) produced from fishery waste (salmon, tuna, etc.) that are associated with the processing of various edible human fishery products and 2) when specific fish (herring, menhaden, pollack, etc.) are harvested just for the purpose to produce fish meal."

Fish meal

My point being, fish meal in itself doesn't necessarily mean a low quality food product. It can, and often is, deliberately made with high standards of freshness and ingredients.

No one has mentioned TetraMin, which has got to be one of the most popular, and longest in production fish foods of all time, has fish meal as their first ingredient. It's sold in every fish store I've ever been in, and I'd be willing to bet Tetra has a gaggle of experts in their labs making sure their product is high quality and nutritious for fish.


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## TwilightGuy (Oct 22, 2011)

AbbeysDad said:


> Imagine what would likely happen if all you ever ate was hot dogs.
> 
> Thank-you - that's exactly the point here.


Imagine what would likely happen if all you ever ate was *[blankety-blank]
* 
Fill in the blank with anything you want and it still wouldn't be good for you.

I'm being devil's advocate in this discussion, of course. But I haven't seen anything compelling yet that says fish meal HAS to be a bad thing.


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## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

I was reading a bit, trying to extract useful information from sources not designed around the purpose of making food for fish, but I came across this quote: "A very important measure of fish meal quality is its freedom from microorganisms that cause disease in man by contaminating the animals he eats; _Salmonella_ is generally of most concern in this respect."

This raises the question- If the fish food we buy is designed to feed to our pet fish, and we are not supposed to eat our pet fish, can the industry then be more lax in the quality of the food and, specifically, the pathogens that may be present?


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## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

Here's an article that puts it together nicely. Having read a bit, I recognize bits of information from other articles I'd seen. I wish he/she had noted more references, but it seems to be the best summary I've come across so far. Fish Nutrition; Quality Fish Food Ingredients for Aquatic Health

He talks about fish nutrtion, the quality differences in fish meal versus whole fish meal, advises against mixing prepared foods, live/frozen/FD/veggie options, reviews some labels, and makes some recommendations. Good stuff!


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

TwilightGuy said:


> Imagine what would likely happen if all you ever ate was *[blankety-blank]
> *
> Fill in the blank with anything you want and it still wouldn't be good for you.
> 
> I'm being devil's advocate in this discussion, of course. But I haven't seen anything compelling yet that says fish meal HAS to be a bad thing.


My research suggested that not all fish meal is created equally. Lower grades are fish or fish parts (heads, bones, guts) of undefined fish species. Higher grades are made from whole fish of specific species.
Fresh proteins bind ingredients together just fine (think of an egg or a hamburger). But once processed, as in fish meal, they require a binder to hold them together. This is usually a starch like wheat, soy, oat flours or gluten. This binder also 'helps' in increasing the crude protein in the analysis. This binder/filler is most often very high in the ingredient list. Some feel that binder/fillers are not in the best nutritional interests in any food. In nature, how would a fish consume large quantities of wheat, soy, or oat flour?
The fish does not live by bread alone ;-)

*I don't know* that fish meal is bad. But I would suggest that some of it is not all that good. I'd also suggest that foods with fillers and artificial flavors and colors just maybe aren't as healthy as those without.

Bottom line - be aware of the ingredients and decide for yourself.

Footnote:
....think of all the time, money and effort we spend on water quality. Cycling, filters, filter media and bio-media, test kits and testing, gravel siphoning, plants and/or routine weekly water changes... and then, we just might feed our fish low quality fish food? What are we thinking? The water they swim in is more important than the food they eat? Doh

AD ;-)


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

I kind of compare this with dog food.

If you compare premium dog foods (Foods that dont have "meal" as the first ingredient) to some of the cheaper brands that use meal you will notice that the serving size is much smaller in the premium food.

From my understanding, "cheap" foods use a lot of filler ingredients that really do nothing for the animal other than fill them up. Because of this, they will poop A LOT more than the same dog on premium food. The dog absorbs a lot more of the nutrients from the premium dog food and therefore there are less wastes.


From my own experience, I had my dog on cheap store brand food for a year. After doing some research I switched over to a premium dog food. A few weeks later, my dogs fur is softer and more shiny, he pooped SO much less, and had a ton more energy.

I know we are talking about fish food here, but this is the reason I go for omega one. Ive seen the difference "meal" heavy foods vs "whole food" ingredients can have on my dog. It just makes sense to me to feed my fish with the same idea in mind.


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## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

Yes! JBroFish, that was and is my thinking, too. And I've found articles to back that thinking up. (See my previous post.) I've been reading that there's a whole world of difference between regular "fish meal" (read:bones and offal) and "whole fish meal". Seriously, read that article I posted, I found it to be the most concise explanation of all the other stuff I was reading.


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## TwilightGuy (Oct 22, 2011)

AbbeysDad said:


> My research suggested that not all fish meal is created equally. Lower grades are fish or fish parts (heads, bones, guts) of undefined fish species. Higher grades are made from whole fish of specific species.


Exactly my point; that quality fish meal is a good thing. Martha Stewart would probably say "it's a good thing". And this guy definitely says it is:

http://www.thefishsite.com/articles/200/the-benefits-of-fish-meal-in-aquaculture-diets

BTW, just to fan the flames, I will contend that Omega, who lists the first ingredient as whole salmon, is just using that term as a substitute for fish meal! If they didn't process salmon into fish meal, how else would they get it into flake form?

Another BTW, I feed my fish Omega brand flakes (besides other things). 

I think we're all just debating marketing semantics.


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## TwilightGuy (Oct 22, 2011)

PS

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone. Hope you enjoy your turkey meal!
(oh, maybe I should have said turkey dinner)

:lol:


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## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

Happy Thanksgiving to you! I'll enjoy my Tofurky, thanks. :lol:

I guess the bottom line for me, and what I said (or at least meant) way back when in the first thread, is that I buy brands that list whole ingredients. Obviously there is not a whole, intact salmon in my little 2 oz container! :lol: They have to make it into fish meal so that it can be package, shipped, and fed. But when I buy brands that list whole ingredients I can be assured that its not the other kind of fish meal.

Its funny this came up, the huge thing that kept me from having aquariums for so long was having to purchase a non-vegetarian product in order to feed my fish. And now I'm advocating killing whole fish. Whew! This makes my head spin!


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

TwilightGuy said:


> Exactly my point; that quality fish meal is a good thing. Martha Stewart would probably say "it's a good thing". And this guy definitely says it is:
> http://www.thefishsite.com/articles/200/the-benefits-of-fish-meal-in-aquaculture-diets
> BTW, just to fan the flames, I will contend that Omega, who lists the first ingredient as whole salmon, is just using that term as a substitute for fish meal! If they didn't process salmon into fish meal, how else would they get it into flake form? Another BTW, I feed my fish Omega brand flakes (besides other things).
> I think we're all just debating marketing semantics.


Incorrect - The following is from the OmegaSea.net website:

_Ingredients

The Omega One Facility is located on the wild and rugged coastline of Baranof Island in Southeast Alaska. We located our facility here in this remote location because it is the hub of a rich commercial fishing network. We are able to purchase our seafood ingredients directly from commercial fisherman. This is the only way to be competitive with such superior raw materials.

The salmon, herring, shrimp, and other seafood ingredients we use are food grade. The high levels of omega 3 & 6 fatty acids greatly enhance the immune system and make for incredible palatability. The skin on our whole salmon are rich in natural beta carotenes for outstanding color enhancement.

We harvest our own kelp, by hand, along the pristine Alaskan shoreline, far removed from any area of human habitation. Rich in vitamins and minerals, nothing can compare to this level of freshness.

*Using fresh, cold water marine proteins and kelp, as ingredients, instead of fishmeal and a whole lot of starch (like everyone else) puts Omega One light years ahead of any other fish food on the market. It truly is the “Best Fish Food in the World”* _


AD


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## TwilightGuy (Oct 22, 2011)

Yup, direct from their marketing department.....

If it's on the internet., it MUST be true.....


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

TwilightGuy said:


> Yup, direct from their marketing department.....
> 
> If it's on the internet., it MUST be true.....


:roll:


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

why would it matter if it is fit for human consumption? They are fish not humans. A lot of the nutrition for carnivorous animals are in the parts that we generally scoff at eating. Liver being a good example. If the fish meal in my cheap fish food is primarily fish entrails and bones I'm not bothered by that in the least. Its still a perfectly fine protein source. IMO its more important that the fish have the option to eat their 'natural' diet requirements. What I mean by this is that omnivorous fish are not fed a high protein diet. Same way in that strict carnivores should have a high protein diet. 

Someone mentioned dog food and this is on quiet a different level then fish food. Most fish are omnivorous, where as dogs are carnivores. I've had similar issues with cat food. Basically no dry food is good for a carnivore. My families 13 year old cat ate strictly science diet for 12 years. Then he became diabetic and the vet put him on insulin. Two weeks after starting insulin armed with a $10 blood glucose meter and a TON of web research I made the decision to stop the insulin. At that same time we switched him to canned fancy feast. In the end problem solved and he is no longer diabetic or dependent on insulin, BUT only as long as his diet remains low carb. Dry foods are quiet high in carbs due to the processing, things like corn meal do not belong in a carnivores diet. This only causes problems in the long run. 

I lost a lot of trust in the pet(cat/dog) food industry because the food normally does the opposite of what it claims. Even the prescription dry "diabetic management" cat food the vet gave us listed its first main ingredient as corn! Who thought managing diabetes by feeding carbs was ever going to be successful? He wouldn't be able to eat that without having insulin injections. 'Light' or weightloss foods also have higher carbs which more often cause a carnivore to gain weight not loose it. 

Fish being mostly omnivores they do much better on dry foods then any carnivore would. If you have a pretty strict carnivorous fish you should make sure you have a high protein food. Its hard to find high protein dry foods that are a 'reasonable' cost. It would be cheaper and better to just feed raw in this situation IMO. Thats why my fish eat mostly dry food, but my caecilian eats strictly raw food. The fish in that tank are lucky since they do clean up all the scraps of raw fish. 

In my 55 gallon which has my breeding group of boesemani rainbows and my wild panda garras they get 2 types of dry foods, 'cichlid' pellets and algae wafers. While you are all debating about fish meal, I'm gonna say BOTH these foods I use have wheat listed as the first ingredient. Does this make them low quality? I don't think so. My fish are omnivores and they are adults, thus they don't need a lot of protein. They should have more forage/plant material. My rainbows munch on the stargrass in the tank too. They get blood worms once a week and as a group they spawn almost every day. The rainbowfish fry on the other-hand get food that is 60% protein because they need it for growth.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Mikaila31 said:


> Someone mentioned dog food and this is on quiet a different level then fish food. Most fish are omnivorous, where as dogs are carnivores. I've had similar issues with cat food. Basically no dry food is good for a carnivore. My families 13 year old cat ate strictly science diet for 12 years. Then he became diabetic and the vet put him on insulin. Two weeks after starting insulin armed with a $10 blood glucose meter and a TON of web research I made the decision to stop the insulin. At that same time we switched him to canned fancy feast. In the end problem solved and he is no longer diabetic or dependent on insulin, BUT only as long as his diet remains low carb. Dry foods are quiet high in carbs due to the processing, things like corn meal do not belong in a carnivores diet. This only causes problems in the long run.


That's why my dog gets fed grain free food. Not veggie free...but grain free.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

TwilightGuy said:


> It undoubtedly is but that doesn't make it unfit for fish consumption or even low quality. After all, every time a fish eats another fish it is eating the eyeballs, lips, entrails, and everything else.
> 
> Besides that, I guarantee you that in many parts of the world that are impoverished, when they have a fish to eat, the entire fish gets consumed and not just the boneless filet like we do here. (ever hear of fish head soup?)


My apologie's, My post was meant to be a bit tounge in cheek.
My grandfather, worked and retired from packinghouse after many year's and would alway's refuse to eat hot dog's . He used to scare us kid's from eating them by his description of how they were made, and from what.:lol:
I tend to look for primary food's needed by particular fishes, and view the rest as filler with respect to food's for fishes. But of all the way's I can save a few bucks in this hobby,,The purchase of fish food is not an area where I look to save money by using cheaper food's . 
Speaking to impoverished area's you mention,,I'm pretty impoverished.
wish I ate as well as some of the fishes I care for.


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## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

I just gone home from work, and I'm beat. Part of me does want to respond in full to the bits about dog and cat diets, but I'm too tuckered out now and it would lead this thread astray. But I guess I could say that there are a lot of misconceptions about cat and dog nutritional requirements and optimal diets. Dogs are not carnivores, they are omnivores that tend towards the carnivorous end of the spectrum. They may or may not benefit from small amounts of pre-cooked grains (I've heard both sides of it), but they definitely need vegetables to have a complete diet. Cats... well, cats I'm too tired for right now. But with both species it comes down to not the amount of protein, or even the source of protein, but the quality of the protein and the availability of required amino acids. I've been expanding my own working knowledge recently with a doctor at work. She was a registered dietician before becoming a vet, and has a particular interest in pet nutrition. She's been awesome. Right now I'm studying nutrition in critical care and enteral nutrition. But I have to stop myself here, and on to the fish-pertinent stuff. Sadly, the doctor hasn't studied fish nutrition! :lol:


So... its not the amount of protein in a fish food, its the quality of the protein and the amounts of usable amino acids. This person explains it better than me: 

"An amino acid is any molecule that contains both amines (organic compounds that contain nitrogen as the key atom. Structurally amines resemble ammonia) and Carboxylic acids (organic acids characterized by the presence of a carboxyl group). Amino acids are used as the basic components of proteins.
The net protein utilization is profoundly affected by the limiting amino acid content or protein quality (the essential amino acid found in the smallest quantity in the foodstuff), and somewhat affected by salvage of essential amino acids in the body. It is therefore a good idea to mix foodstuffs that have different weaknesses in their essential amino acid distributions. This limits the loss of nitrogen through deamination and increases overall net protein utilization. Eggs (whether fish or even chicken) have the highest protein quality of any source. Which makes hard boiled egg crumbles an excellent food source for fry.
DL-methionine is an essential amino acid for producing the “Lionhead” feature in goldfish. Methionine is one of eight essential amino acids. 
High levels of methionine can be found in the vegetable proteins of spinach, green peas, garlic, and Vegetable protein extract which is used in many commercial foods such as Sanyu Koi and Goldfish Food. DL-methionine can also be found in whole fish meal.

Other essential Amino acids include (essential meaning amino acids that cannot be produced within the fish’ body from other nutrients and proteins): Arginine, Histidine, Isoleucine, Leucine, Lysine, Methionine + Cystine3, Phenylalanine + Tryosine4, Threonine, Tryptophan, and Valine.

*Other quality sources of usable amino acids include: Whole fish meal (salmon is best), Cylcops, fish roe, squid meal, and even spirulina algae.
*
*Bottom line; Not all protein sources are equal. An analogy used at a pet food seminar I attended was this: You can achieve the protein analysis on many pet foods with a used pair of leather shoes, but leather shoes contain little usable proteins.
Another point as to grain or plant sources (Spirulina does NOT fall into this category), is that proteins in cereal grains and other plant concentrates do not contain complete amino acid profiles and usually are deficient in the essential amino acids lysine and methionine.*"

Bold is mine.

Oh, and the part where he's writing about mixing "foodstuffs that have different weaknesses in their essential amino acid distributions", he clarifies later that he doesn't mean combined different brands of foods at one meal, he means combining different ingredients in one food.

Annnnnnnd... that's all I got in me. Good night, and every one enjoy their time with their loved ones!


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

My order of Almost Natural Tropical Fish Food came today. 
I ordered the freshwater flakes and the super green flakes. Both 2 oz. for $3.50 each. They came very well packages in vacuum sealed pouches.
The fish gobble up the Freshwater Flakes, but don't seem as enthusiastic about the green flakes.


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## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

OOOoooOOOh! Bookmarked! I hope Santa thinks my fish have been good this year!

Edit- Tell those fish to finish their brussel sprouts!


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## Calmwaters (Sep 2, 2009)

Can anyone tell me if this is a good food for my tropical fish? It has be recommended by several people for my goldies and if its good for my other tropicals I can make a batch and feed it to all my fish. I have male/female bettas, harliquin rasboras, black neons, blue neons, ember tetra, dwarf blue gourami, honey gourami, cory cats both dwarf and normal size, tiger barbs, serpia tetra, and golden barb I think thats all of them except for the oto, algae eater, shrimp, and mystery snail but they all eat algae wafers and veggies.
Goldfish Utopia


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## zoragen (Sep 25, 2009)

I've been feeding Omega One and Almost Natural to my threadfins and they seem to be doing well.


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## Calmwaters (Sep 2, 2009)

I have been feeding the omega one as well as various frozen foods the Mazuri gel has been recommened for my goldies and would like to know if its good for my other fish as well. Here is a link the one abouve did not work:
http://www.mazuri.com/PDF/5ML6.pdf


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

zoragen said:


> I've been feeding Omega One and Almost Natural to my threadfins and they seem to be doing well.


Mixed or equal but separate feedings? For how long? what did you switch from? what changes, if any, have you noticed?


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

So copied from the other thread-


AbbeysDad said:


> I don't wish to diminish the discussion in the other thread on the subject, however since you brought it up here...
> With respect to fish foods, after extensive research I concluded quite clearly that foods that use fresh whole fish with little/no flour binder/fillers simply MUST be better for our fish. I learned long ago that feeding bread to birds was not good for the birds as the bread was merely empty calories for them.
> I'm betting if we use fish foods made with fresh whole food grade fish instead of stale low quality fishmeals loaded with preservatives that contain copious amounts of rice, wheat, oat, soy flours and/or gluten binder/fillers we'll have healthier, happier fish. Stop feeding your fish bread for awhile and see what happens. The only thing you have to loose at most is less than a dollar cost difference for the container of food!
> 
> :smile:


You seem to think I've only ever fed cheap foods, which I haven't. I use to feed entirely Hikari and frozen foods for a long time. Now I feed mostly Ken's food, though I still have a practically unused container of NLS small fish food that my fish seem kinda 'meh' about. They just don't seem so excited to eat it as the other foods. 

Ingredients for NLS are: Herring, krill, wheat flour, algae meal,soybean lsolate, fish oil, beta carotene, spirulina, garlic, vitamin A acetate, D-Activated Animal-Sterol (D3), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Niacin, Folic Acid, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine, Biotin, DL Alphatocopherol (E), L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (C), Choline chloride, Cobalt Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Ethylenediamine Dihydroiodide, Ethoxyquin (preservative).
Ingredient for Kens super color crumble #1: fish meal, soybean meal, stabilized fish oil, wheat flour, poultry by-product meal, wheat germ, hydrolized feather meal, special blend of color enhancers, lignan sulfonate, vitamin a acetate, d-activated animal sterol (d3), vitamin b12 supplement, riboflavin supplement, niacin, folic acid, menadione sodium bisolumite complex, calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, thiamine, biotin, dl alphatocopherol (e), ascorbic acid, choline chloride, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, ferrous sulfate, managenous sulfate, ethylenediamine dihyroiodide ethoxyquin (anti-oxidant)

​Cost is much greater then you seem to think. For NLS 4.95oz it was $10. For that particular ken's food it was 8oz for $3.60. If you break that down NLS was 4.5 times more per ounce. An equivalent 8 ounces of the NLS would cost $12.50 more. 

I feed a similar but slightly cheaper ken's pellet to my main tank. That being their main diet they seem plenty happy and healthy. They display and someone spawns everyday. I have spawning mop in there for the rainbows. I've had angels pair and spawn a couple times as well on this food. Thus I see no problem with the food I feed. Could it be better? Definitely. Do I need more eggs and breeding? nope they eat most the eggs anyway. If I really felt I needed a better food I would probably just toss in raw diced tilapia specifically for the fish a couple times a week. It would be cheaper then buying a better food =/. They supplement the stargrass into their diet, though fish are pretty poor at digesting live macrophytes, that doesn't stop them from eating it.


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## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

After my good experience with feeding Omega One to my betta and our discussions on whole ingredients, today I started the juvies in my 55g on New Life Spectrum. Tonight I saw better color in the Bloodfin Tetra, but I would think that'd be coincidence since its way early in the experiment. NLS has a "ten day challange", so I'll report back with my observations at that time and again after, if pertinent.


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

I'll try this one more time before abandoning the thread.

Industrial grade fishmeal (NOT for human consumption), is typically made from fish processing waste and low quality off grade fish that can't be otherwise used. It is often not made from whole fish, but fish parts.
Higher quality fishmeals are made from whole fish, but often fish of lower quality that can't be otherwise used. 
Fish or fish parts are ground, dried and preservatives added to sustain a long shelf life. It may sit in a warehouse for many months until ordered by the fish food manufacturer. This processing and dry storage may render useless unsaturated fats and amino acids.

Because it's a dry meal, fish foods made from fishmeal require fair amounts of starch in order to bind the ingredients together. You will often see rice, wheat, oat or soy flour and/or gluten as the second largest ingredient by volume - sometimes it's the first largest! Even larger amounts of flour must be used for lower quality fishmeals as filler in order to increase the crude protein value in the crude analysis.

Fish foods made from FRESH FOOD GRADE WHOLE FISH (the same fish we could eat) require little/no starch as a binder because unlike powdered meal, fresh fish protein IS A BINDER.

Makaila misquoted the ingredients for NLS. NLS uses whole herring meal and whole krill meal. Although better than lower quality fishmeal because it's made from whole fish, it is still a meal most likely made from lower quality fish and it requires more flour as a binder.

I'm not saying that NLS is not a good food. I just don't think foods made with fishmeal are as good as those made from fresh whole food quality fish.

I have found fish foods that are made from whole fresh food grade fish and since switching to these I'm seeing less fish excrement. It is a bit soon, but I'm hoping to see improved health, color, growth, etc. with these foods over lower quality foods. Time will tell.

Footnote: I'm not selling anything here and have no interest in these fish foods. Merely reporting a discovery of awareness. Every fishkeeper is free to make his/her own choices regarding the foods they feed their stock.


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

I had to look and your right that their site lists those as meals. My actual container still says just herring and krill though not meals which is very inconsistent of them.


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

OOPS = AD. In my previous post I wrote that ingredients are listed in the order of 'volume' when I meant 'weight'.


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