# New fish owner seeks advice on tank set up!



## steveh (Apr 4, 2009)

Note: Unfortunately, the 4-5 paragraph summary of my brief history with fish got deleted somehow, and so I will just stick to the facts this time around.

First, let me say Hi! I'm new to this forum, and to fish ownership in general. I started out like many, with not-so-great advice from Petco and a tank that was much too small for my two goldfish (a Black Moor and a Shubunkin), and ended up losing the Shubunkin. After much research and deliberation, I ended up getting the following today:

15 Gallon glass aquarium
Marineland Emperor 280 Bio-Wheel (rated at 50 gallons)
The original filter/pump from the 2.5 gallon "starter kit" from Petco
30 lbs of natural rock

A bottle of starter bacteria, and some sort of anti-ammonia/chlorine/nitrate/nitrite stuff

This along with the Black Moor and a new, larger Shubunkin, completes my current setup. The 2.5 gallon tank they were in was killing them with ammonia that I couldn't get rid of, and so I felt that it would likely be better for the fish to just get into the new aquarium as fast as I could, keeping in mind temperature differences and such.

So far, they seem to be happier, although the Black Moor is swimming quite quickly up the side of the aquarium on occasion. It seems to be happy, but I worry because that's what I do. The Shubunkin, who seemed to be doing poorly in the 2.5 gallon tank, swimming vertically in a corner as though trying to get to the top for air or something, is currently happily hiding behind a plant, with the occasional short outing due to prodding from the Black Moor.

All in all, does it sound like this setup could work? Assuming I get regular water testings at the great local fish store about 10 minutes from my house, "A World of Fish" in Minneapolis.

Thanks!


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## Twistersmom (Dec 9, 2008)

Hello & welcome to the forum.
Congrats on the new awsome filter! One of the best filters they make!
I think the fish will be fine for a while, lots of water changes may be needed to keep the ammonia and nitrites under contol while the tank is cycling.
They may need more room as they grow, a 35 gal would give two full grown goldfish some room to move around. You could keep an eye out for a deal on a used tank from Craigslist. Sometimes you can find awsome deals.
Whats your plan for the small tank? It could make a nice home for a betta.
Good luck with the fish and new tank!


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## steveh (Apr 4, 2009)

Twistersmom said:


> Hello & welcome to the forum.
> Congrats on the new awsome filter! One of the best filters they make!
> I think the fish will be fine for a while, lots of water changes may be needed to keep the ammonia and nitrites under contol while the tank is cycling.
> They may need more room as they grow, a 35 gal would give two full grown goldfish some room to move around. You could keep an eye out for a deal on a used tank from Craigslist. Sometimes you can find awsome deals.
> ...


I trusted the helpful salesman at "A World of Fish," and judging by reviews, it sounds like my faith was well-placed! It looks almost sort of ridiculous on such a small tank, but I'd heard Goldfish needed extra filtration and so I hope this will help with their less-than-ideal tank size. I'd like to eventually move to something bigger, but this one fits really nicely onto a TV stand I already had in my room, and anything larger would've required an even bigger investment (I spent around $200 thus-far, which is likely over 10x less than some of the setups I've seen on here, but still a good chunk of change for a musician such as myself!)

I was thinking of cycling the little tank fishless, and either using it as a sick-tank, or potentially for something like a betta or some smaller, less dirty fishies. It really is quite a nice little tank!

Here's a picture for those interested in seeing what I've got!


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## plessans (Mar 20, 2009)

steveh said:


> A bottle of starter bacteria, and some sort of anti-ammonia/chlorine/nitrate/nitrite stuff
> 
> This along with the Black Moor and a new, larger Shubunkin, completes my current setup. The 2.5 gallon tank they were in was killing them with ammonia that I couldn't get rid of, and so I felt that it would likely be better for the fish to just get into the new aquarium as fast as I could, keeping in mind temperature differences and such.


Ummm, so the reason you couldn't get rid of the NH3 is because your tank wasn't cycled. Your new tank will have the same problems while you cycle this larger one. You won't be performing an efficient cycle if you do water changes during the cycle. Since you're using the fish you ACTUALLY want to keep to cycle you're tank, you can only hope they don't die from the NH3. If they die, remove the dead fish and I would suggest not doing a water change after removing the dead fish. I strongly recommend doing a fishless cycle with aqueous ammonia instead of using a fish you don't even want, and will probably get removed after the cycle, to cycle your tank.


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## steveh (Apr 4, 2009)

plessans said:


> Ummm, so the reason you couldn't get rid of the NH3 is because your tank wasn't cycled. Your new tank will have the same problems while you cycle this larger one. You won't be performing an efficient cycle if you do water changes during the cycle. Since you're using the fish you ACTUALLY want to keep to cycle you're tank, you can only hope they don't die from the NH3. If they die, remove the dead fish and I would suggest not doing a water change after removing the dead fish. I strongly recommend doing a fishless cycle with aqueous ammonia instead of using a fish you don't even want, and will probably get removed after the cycle, to cycle your tank.


Right, I know the first tank wasn't cycled, but I got the bigger tank with the significantly better filtering mechanism with the intention of smoothing out some of the chemical spikes that occur during said cycle. Because I had already purchased the fish, I figured it'd be at least a little more likely that they'd live through the cycle if they were in the bigger tank.

What would you recommend that I do, keeping in mind that the fish are already in the tank, and that I don't have a cycled tank to put them in while the new tank cycles?

I appreciate the advice, but you are coming off as a bit harsh, considering I'm new at this...


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## Twistersmom (Dec 9, 2008)

I have cycled quite a few tanks with fish and no deaths occurred. 
I know you already spent alot of money on your setup, (FISH KEEPING CAN GET EXPENSIVE) but if you can buy one more thing, I would recommend buying an API freshwater testing kit.
It will save you daily trips to the fish store for test.
It will not take long to start getting ammonia reading. When doing a fish cycle, I try to keep ammonia under .25ppm. Maybe a week or two after the ammonia readings, you will start to get nitrite reading. I also try to keep nitrites under .25ppm.
Keeping the toxic ammonia and nitrites this low will be a lot of hard work for a while. May have to do 25% or 50% water changes everyday till the cycle kicks in, but this will inflict less stress on the fish and help them live through it.
The ammonia is the first to drop to zero, a week or two latter nitrites will drop to zero. Then you are on easy street!! After you have a cycled tank, weekly 25-50% water changes will keep them nice and healthy!
Also, your tank will cycle even with the water changes and keeping levels low. I have done it this way on a few tanks and all my tanks cycled in 6 weeks or less.

You say you are a musician. What do you do? Very interesting. I live with a musician that builds guitar amps for a living.


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## Katydid (Mar 15, 2009)

I vote you use the 2.5 gallon tank for Dwarf African Frogs....so charming they are and a pair would like that space!

but of course having a quarentine tank is immensly wise.


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## plessans (Mar 20, 2009)

steveh said:


> What would you recommend that I do, keeping in mind that the fish are already in the tank, and that I don't have a cycled tank to put them in while the new tank cycles?
> 
> I appreciate the advice, but you are coming off as a bit harsh, considering I'm new at this...


I apologize for seeming harsh. I don't mean to be. Okay, so getting down to business. I would suggest feeding your fish a little less than normal especially since you have gold fish...they are poop machines. This should decrease the amount of poop and thus ammonia. Other than this I can't think of anything that will not stress the fish. If you know the temperature range specific for your fishes (if you don't, then stop reading, find out the ranges and make sure your tank temp is in that range) crank the heat to the top of that range. Increased temperature will increase the reaction rate. That's about it. If you have any more questions about aquariums and/or cycling you can PM me.


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## steveh (Apr 4, 2009)

Thanks all for the advice! Unfortunately, I lost the Shubunkin ("Jack") last night, presumably due to the somewhat unhappy state he had been in in the previous tank. However, the Black Moor is now exhibiting odd, somewhat erratic behavior, and doesn't seem interested in eating the shelled/cooked pea I put in there for him. I'm worried that by the time the fish store opens and I can get the water tested (and the water testing kit, as recommended by Twistersmom), the fish will be gone. I realize somewhat morbidly that this would be an excellent time to cycle the tank fishless, but I'd really like to save the poor guy. I guess without a test kit, all I can do is hope (unless y'all think it would be OK to add some more de-ammonia stuff?)


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## Twistersmom (Dec 9, 2008)

Adding more de- ammonia stuff will not hurt, but if I have fish not acting healthy, I do a water changes. Clean water is the best meds for you fish.
Hopefully he is just sad and lonely. Keep us posted on the test results.


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## steveh (Apr 4, 2009)

Twistersmom said:


> Adding more de- ammonia stuff will not hurt, but if I have fish not acting healthy, I do a water changes. Clean water is the best meds for you fish.
> Hopefully he is just sad and lonely. Keep us posted on the test results.


I added a bit more, in the hopes that it might help. He seems more interested in the pea now (I squished it so he could hopefully get more in his mouth, what with not having any teeth and all), and seems a bit calmer. The fish store doesn't open until noon, but considering the tank water is new as of a day ago, and that I hadn't fed the fish until a couple of minutes ago, I don't think new water would help in this case. I could be wrong though!

Thank you all for your help


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## Twistersmom (Dec 9, 2008)

No, I do not think there would be high ammonia after only one day either.


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## steveh (Apr 4, 2009)

Twistersmom said:


> No, I do not think there would be high ammonia after only one day either.


I wouldn't have assumed so, except that apparently the Minneapolis City Water is generally high in ammonia right off the bat (which is why I'll be getting filtered water from the fish store or grocery store hence-forth). He seems to have calmed down quite a bit, and ate a bunch of the pea, so I'll calm down for now and get hte water tested when the store opens.

So stressful, these first few weeks are!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

steveh said:


> Thanks all for the advice! Unfortunately, I lost the Shubunkin ("Jack") last night, presumably due to the somewhat unhappy state he had been in in the previous tank. However, the Black Moor is now exhibiting odd, somewhat erratic behavior, and doesn't seem interested in eating the shelled/cooked pea I put in there for him. I'm worried that by the time the fish store opens and I can get the water tested (and the water testing kit, as recommended by Twistersmom), the fish will be gone. I realize somewhat morbidly that this would be an excellent time to cycle the tank fishless, but I'd really like to save the poor guy. I guess without a test kit, all I can do is hope (unless y'all think it would be OK to add some more de-ammonia stuff?)


The previous advice was good, but as you're problem is what to do with the fish now in the tank, there is only one thing to do--buy a bottle of "Cycle" and add it according to the label instructions. You can't overdose anyway. This contains live nitrosomonas and nitrobacter bacteria and I can assure you it works to get the tank bacteria established very fast, because they already are there in the bottle. It does relieve the stress on fish.


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

you're being taken care of,so.........
i'd just like to say hello and welcome,
it can be a stressfull time at the begining,however it will sort it's self out,
and you'll be swimming along(pun intended)just fine.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

In my view, water changes with dechlorinator such as PRIME or AMQUEL+ are needed to keep ammonia levels from becoming toxic to your fish. Not all water conditioners are the same . Some deal with chlorine and others claim to address chloramines which is chlorine /ammonia. They remove the chlorine but leave the ammonia for biological filter (bacteria) to break down but in a new tank there is seldom enough biological bacteria to do this.Do yourself a favor and purchase a dechlorinator that clearly says that it detoxifys AMMONIA,CHLORINE,and CHLORAMINES. The two mentioned are very good at this with PRIME being the choice of many. There are also many products that claim to help kick start the biological process in aquariums. Some are more useful than others but Fish stores are keen on recommending them. My own expieriences with these products were inconsistent. It was also suggested to reduce feeding. This is very good advice for any uneaten food that falls to the bottom of the tank ,will begin to decay and increase the ammonia levels in the tank.Feeding once every two days and only as much as you actually see the fish eat,, would be desireable until the aquarium has matured or (cycled) . The fish will not starve and it will help keep ammonia levels manageable. The API freshwater master kit was also recommended and I agree. The test kits that use strips of paper are notoriously inaccurate. Do you know for certain that tapwater contains ammonia or was this news courtesy of the fish store before they recommended the ammonia reducing stuff (what is this?). If you have ammonia from tap,, then the proper water conditioner becomes even more important for besides the ammonia produced by all fish,,you will be adding it with water changes and it becomes important to have the proper conditioner. I might also,, Were it me,(and it ain't) consider purchasing a small inexpensive rubbermaid tub and a filter for this tub along with a small heater(Iknow,More money) if indeed, you have ammonia in tapwater ,and depending at what levels. (see test kit) In this way,, You could fill the tub with tapwater and place the filter and heater in the tub and the ammonia in tapwater would cycle the tub over time, so that you would have a source of water that biological process has rendered safe for the fish ,and would not need to purchase water from elsewhere. Simply add a little conditioner (to be safe) to this water before using it for water changes. Wouldn't be necessary to treat it until then. Hope some of this helps ;-)


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## steveh (Apr 4, 2009)

I went and got a chemical test kit. It turns out that the tap water by itself has 1.5mg/l of ammonia in it, so I'll be heading over to Cub to grab some filtered water hopefully tomorrow morning to to a somewhat aggressive water change (I'm thinking 40-60%). I added some AMQUEL+ to the mix and I'll re-test the tank tomorrow morning. Hopefully the fishy will make it through this troublesome time :/

So stressful!


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## Twistersmom (Dec 9, 2008)

Sorry to hear you have ammonia from the tap! What a bummer.
I have not used filtered water in my tanks, so I am not the best to give advice on this. I would test the filtered water to compare the ph levels to your own. Sudden changes in ph can be hard on the fish.
If there is a big difference, not sure what you should do. Maybe smaller more frquent water changes adding the new water.
Hope the Amquel will remove it for you.
Maybe someone with your same problem will post what they do. Good luck!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I think 1077 gave us the answer to this problem. Use a water conditioner that will remove the ammonia from the tap water before/as it goes in to the tank during the water change. That seems better, as it means you can use the tap water which is going to be far more practical than buying special water. And the issue raised by Twistersmom is also prudent, you have to watch out for other differences in the purchased water. Better to stick with what is readily and always available, that you know, and treat it with the conditioner.


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## steveh (Apr 4, 2009)

I've prepared some new water for a water change, and added the AMQUEL+ at slightly higher than the recommended dose (as it's made to remove 1.2mg/l, and the tap water by itself is 1.5mg/l!). I'll test it when I get home.

Wish me luck!


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## Twistersmom (Dec 9, 2008)

Good luck!


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

good luck.


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## steveh (Apr 4, 2009)

Update: the Amquel+ seems to do the trick to tap water, which is good! The Ammonia level in the tank is still unsafe (around 1.5 still), and so I'll likely do another water change tonight with the water I prepared last night, unless anyone recommends different?

I fed the fish another pea, along with two pellets for a treat (he's been quite stressed lately with the new tank, and losing his companions and such) and will likely forego feeding today. Seems OK so far, but I'll be worried until the tank is Cycled.

Thanks for all of the great advice thus far!

*edit - if the ammonia level is somewhat high, is it safe to put Amquel+ in? Or are there other factors that make going over the manufacturer's recommended dose unsafe?


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## Twistersmom (Dec 9, 2008)

Glad the amquel took the ammonia out of the tap for you!
Yea, the water change tonight sounds like a good plan.
I think it would be safe to add more amquel to the tank, but I would not use it to replace water changes.
The declorinator I am using says it is safe to overdose 10x the recommended amount, not sure about the amquel though.


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## steveh (Apr 4, 2009)

Fishy seems happier with each water change. I've been getting better at digging around the rocks with the syphon and getting all of the nastiness out of there. I've got a 15 gallon tank and a 5 gallon bucket, giving me the ability to do around 30% water changes each time. Unless someone advises otherwise, I'm thinking until the ammonia level goes down in the tank naturally, I'll likely do a 30% water change every night.

Feeding-wise, he really likes peas. Is there anything else I need to be feeding him? I know the pellets/flakes are pretty high in protein, and should generally be thought of as more of a treat, but is sticking with peas as the main staple food all that good of an idea? I'd heard cucumber is good...


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## Twistersmom (Dec 9, 2008)

30% water changes a day sounds like a good plan to me!
My goldfish get goldfish flakes and sinking pellets as their staple food,its loaded with the vitamins they need.
They also do love their peas, cucumber and blanched zucchinni. A variety of foods is best.


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## steveh (Apr 4, 2009)

Just an update for everyone, the black moor is still going strong, despite the less than stellar tank conditions. A strong little fishy, that.

There is now a nitrite presence of .8 (which I know is high), but surprisingly, the ammonia is still at 1.5. How the fish is still alive is a marvel of modern medical science. Perhaps it's a robot... 
Anyway, I continue to do 30% water changes, at night, and a double-dose of amquel in the mornings, but the levels don't seem to be dropping. Am I doing something wrong?

I'm feeding the fish one pea once a day, with a serving of 5-7 pellets once a week, and a day or two of not feeding.


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## eileen (Feb 24, 2009)

I'm so sorry for you on losing your fish . I hope the other goldfish makes it. In my experience I have had no luck with goldfish. The blackmoors seem to always get Ich and the last goldfish died as I did not know they produced so much waste and the water got bad. If you know of someone that has a tank ask if you can have a filter pad from their tank to cycle yours or a small amount of gravel. Gravel can be put in pantyhose or fine netting to get the cycle going. Keep us posted on your fish.l 

I have decided to go with a freshwater tropical fish. The livebearers are the easyiest to keep. Keeping in mind that they reproduce so quickly. I have all male livebearers with an assortment of other community fish, tetras,corys,rainbows,angelfish.


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## steveh (Apr 4, 2009)

Nitrite levels are still at .7mg/L, despite daily 30% water changes and double-doses of Amquel+, and ammonia levels are still at around 1mg/L. I'm worried about my fish!

I'm skipping 2 days a week, and feeding a pea 4/5 of the time, with one feeding of goldfish pellets and/or flakes once a week. I can't think of what else I could be doing...

Again, this is with one Black Moor goldfish in a 15 gallon tank.


On a side-note, I'm noticing a brownish/reddish fungus or algae or something growing on one of the fake plants:










Should I be worried?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

steveh said:


> Nitrite levels are still at .7mg/L, despite daily 30% water changes and double-doses of Amquel+, and ammonia levels are still at around 1mg/L. I'm worried about my fish!
> 
> I'm skipping 2 days a week, and feeding a pea 4/5 of the time, with one feeding of goldfish pellets and/or flakes once a week. I can't think of what else I could be doing...
> 
> ...


The nitrite levels indicate the tank is still cycling. You set this tank up on April 4, less than two weeks, and it takes from 2-8 weeks to cycle a tank. If you use "Cycle" or a similar product, the fish will survive and the cycling will be a bit quicker, I speak from experience. Use the conditioner with all new water changes to rid the new water of ammonia. Let the ammonia in the tank run its course, it has to, its part of the nitrogen cycling process.

The brown stuff is diatoms, a type of algae, perfectly normal in new tanks particularly. You can remove it with your fingers when you do a water change if you don't like it. It won't do any harm to the fish, nor to a fake plant. First thing though is to get your tank cycled.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

If you are using the API freshwater master kit.Then be sure and perform the tests exactly as the instructions describe. Not waiting long enough for test results to develop or waiting too long,can cause skewed readings.Hold the test tube against the card in sufficient light when reading the results. Shake bottles as per directions, See that drops of liquid are uniform by holding the bottles vertical when adding the drops of solution.Are you the only one feeding the fish? Any water added to the tank must be treated with the dechlorinator before it goes in the tank.Wait an hour or two after water changes to test the water.I do not recall.. what size filter do you have on this tank? Have you been cleaning it or perhaps replaced the cartridges or media? best to leave the filter alone until the tank has (cycled) And filter material should only be cleaned in old aquarium water or dechlorinated water.NOTE.. I just went back and saw that filter is Emperor280 good. Hang in there!!


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## steveh (Apr 4, 2009)

We had a pH drop last night that put the fish in a noticeably unhappy-looking state. She just sort of slowed down and didn't seem interested in much: I tested the pH (which is 7.4 out of the tap), and it was reading only 6!! I immediately did a 60% water change, which brought it up to 7-7.2 at least, and I'll do another water change tonight. I know extreme changes are bad for the fishies, but 6 is in the "gonna die pretty quick" zone, if I recall correctly.

Any idea how this could happen? I perform regular water changes (like 5-6 a week, as the nitrite creeps up much too high in any given 24 hour period), and feed only 5 times a week...

So stressful!


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

This situation is a mess. From what I've read, you have not taken all of the appropriate steps to fix the problems you are having. Further, your problems are about to get worse if you don't do something soon. 

Your problem lies with the buffering ability of your water. Many hobbyists test pH and take away information that is just a snapshot of what is actually happening. To get a true indicator of the stability of your tank, you also need to test for Hardness. This will give you a measure of your buffering system, with is generally a measure of carbonate ions that allow the pH to remain stable. Unfortunately, as your system processes ammonia and nitrite, acids are introduced into the aquarium that neutralize these carbonates, slowly reducing the buffering capacity of your water. You need to replace these carbonates with water changes, using a buffer. For a goldfish aquarium, with the high amounts of waste being processed, this is even more critical.

I recommend treating your tap water with a buffer, such as Proper pH 7.0, prior to adding it to the aquarium. This is in addition to Amquel or Prime. You can then begin testing for both hardness and pH every other day and chart these readings. You will see hardness begin to drop and can use this as an indicator for how frequently you need to change water, using a buffer. This is a short term solution until your ammonia drops to zero on a permanent basis. When it does, I would slowly switch to Proper pH 7.5, which is the better buffer for your situation. Unfortunately, if you raise the pH this high with the NH4 reading you have, much of the NH4 will become NH3 and your entire system will probably crash. Starting with Proper pH 7.0 and later switching to 7.5 will be a safer alternative.

To be more honest, and for future reference, Goldfish do not belong in small aquariums. These are fast growing fish which polute the water tremendously. They are extremely DIFFICULT to keep and are not for beginners. You would be much better off with a tropical fish aquarium.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

I agreee with Pasfur. Some folks in similar situations have used new rubbermaid tubs and mixed their change water in this tub with heat and aeration, and the addition of sodium bicarbonate(baking soda) At a rate of one teaspoon per five gal of water. Some also employ the use of calcerous rock /decorations to help boost the alkalinity. With mixing it in a bucket ,it might be easier to expieriment with and baking soda might be cheaper in the long run. IMHO


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## steveh (Apr 4, 2009)

Pasfur said:


> This situation is a mess. From what I've read, you have not taken all of the appropriate steps to fix the problems you are having. Further, your problems are about to get worse if you don't do something soon.


What steps have I been instructed to do, that I have not yet done?




Pasfur said:


> Your problem lies with the buffering ability of your water. Many hobbyists test pH and take away information that is just a snapshot of what is actually happening. To get a true indicator of the stability of your tank, you also need to test for Hardness. This will give you a measure of your buffering system, with is generally a measure of carbonate ions that allow the pH to remain stable. Unfortunately, as your system processes ammonia and nitrite, acids are introduced into the aquarium that neutralize these carbonates, slowly reducing the buffering capacity of your water. You need to replace these carbonates with water changes, using a buffer. For a goldfish aquarium, with the high amounts of waste being processed, this is even more critical.
> 
> I recommend treating your tap water with a buffer, such as Proper pH 7.0, prior to adding it to the aquarium. This is in addition to Amquel or Prime. You can then begin testing for both hardness and pH every other day and chart these readings. You will see hardness begin to drop and can use this as an indicator for how frequently you need to change water, using a buffer. This is a short term solution until your ammonia drops to zero on a permanent basis. When it does, I would slowly switch to Proper pH 7.5, which is the better buffer for your situation. Unfortunately, if you raise the pH this high with the NH4 reading you have, much of the NH4 will become NH3 and your entire system will probably crash. Starting with Proper pH 7.0 and later switching to 7.5 will be a safer alternative.


Thanks for the great info. My ammonia has been reading at near-zero for around a week or so: should I still use pH 7.0, or should I start with 7.5?




Pasfur said:


> To be more honest, and for future reference, Goldfish do not belong in small aquariums. These are fast growing fish which polute the water tremendously. They are extremely DIFFICULT to keep and are not for beginners. You would be much better off with a tropical fish aquarium.


Oh, I know this now. It's unfortunate how much bad information there is out there: I've been told by different people that you need anywhere between 5 gallons per inch of fish, to at minimum 30 gallons for one goldfish. I've been told that cycling with your fish is a good idea, and that cycling with fish spells certain doom. I've heard of people with one goldfish in a 2-gallon bowl living for 5 years with no filtration, and I've had two goldfish die on me in a 15 gallon tank with a huge filter and a secondary aeration/filter. I've been told to use up to 4x the recommended dosage for amquel+ in emergencies, and I've been told that using it on a daily basis will suffocate your fish due to lack of oxygen.

I'm very attentive, very aggressive at treating problems as soon as I know about them, and have done (and will continue to do) as much as I can to keep this fish alive, and get the tank to the point that the fish will be happy. I feel like people have been not-so-subtly suggesting that I'm an idiot or a bad fish keeper. I have spent more time doing everything that people have told me to help this fish, than I have taking care of myself over the past month, and I don't need people telling me that I'm doing a sh*tty job when I'm literally doing everything I know how and taking as much advice as I can find.


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## codlong (May 1, 2009)

Get used to conflicting information in this hobby...I even have a tropical fish book that talks about the "1 inch of fish per gallon" rule on one page, then gives a sample 10 gallon tank population that totals around 25" on the very next page, including one fish it says shouldn't be in any less than a 30 gallon tank on another page :/

I think the best thing to do in this situation is just to take a deep breath and simplify. Do a 20%-30% water change each day (like you are already doing), with tap water treated with your dechlor product, and keep testing. And that's it. An uncycled tank will have the initial ammonia then nitrite spike while the biological filter is growing. The fish may live through it and they may not, but your daily water changes give them the best chance. As you said, criticism about how you started is pretty unhelpful to someone who knows they screwed up and is requesting help.

You said you're feeding five days a week. Make sure on those days it's only once a day. I highly recommend not using filtered water from the store because it lacks minerals your fish need, and it's too expensive in the long-run anyway. pH buffers cause more problems than they solve in the long run. They'll keep the water fine for awhile and then crash for no apparent reason. Stable pH is way more important than a certain value.

By the way, I may have missed it, but what is your substrate? Things like crushed coral can change pH. So can natural rocks, driftwood, etc.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

codlong said:


> I think the best thing to do in this situation is just to take a deep breath and simplify. Do a 20%-30% water change each day (like you are already doing), with tap water treated with your dechlor product, and keep testing. And that's it.
> 
> pH buffers cause more problems than they solve in the long run. They'll keep the water fine for awhile and then crash for no apparent reason. Stable pH is way more important than a certain value.


I appreciate the simplicity of this suggestion and I understand that many people get in trouble adjusting pH, but I disagree with the advice given here. Let me explain why.

First, it is not pH buffers that cause problems. It is the improper use of the buffer. If the goal were to lower pH, I would agree that adding buffers to lower pH causes long term problems. However, that is not what we are doing in this thread. In this case, I recommended adding buffers that allow the pH to remain stable. There is no risk in adding carbonates back to the buffer system, provided you are testing for hardness and adding buffers for a reason. 

Also, doing water changes may or may not be the answer to the hardness issue, depending on the hardness of the tap water.


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## codlong (May 1, 2009)

Pasfur said:


> I appreciate the simplicity of this suggestion and I understand that many people get in trouble adjusting pH, but I disagree with the advice given here. Let me explain why.
> 
> First, it is not pH buffers that cause problems. It is the improper use of the buffer. If the goal were to lower pH, I would agree that adding buffers to lower pH causes long term problems. However, that is not what we are doing in this thread. In this case, I recommended adding buffers that allow the pH to remain stable. There is no risk in adding carbonates back to the buffer system, provided you are testing for hardness and adding buffers for a reason.
> 
> Also, doing water changes may or may not be the answer to the hardness issue, depending on the hardness of the tap water.


I see your point, and he is trying to stabalize the tank, so they may be necessary in this case. I'm just wondering what's causing it to fluctuate so much. 

In any event, if you do add buffers the "don't panic" mantra still applies...let these things do their job and let the tank settle down. Trying to change the water chemistry everytime it swings this way or that with new chemicals will just make things more chaotic.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

codlong said:


> In any event, if you do add buffers the "don't panic" mantra still applies...let these things do their job and let the tank settle down. Trying to change the water chemistry everytime it swings this way or that with new chemicals will just make things more chaotic.


Very good point. The reason for adding a buffer is to create stability and allow for LESS TINKERING with the environment. Stability = success.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Pasfur said:


> Very good point. The reason for adding a buffer is to create stability and allow for LESS TINKERING with the environment. Stability = success.


Agreed, All "tinkering" should be done in a separate container that is heated and aerated.IMHO


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## steveh (Apr 4, 2009)

I think it'd be a good idea to get everything laid out as it is, in order to see where I should go from here:


Tank: 15 gallon, glass
Type: freshwater
Light: 1 x 15watt (was on 12+ hours/day until this weekend, now down to 8-10 max)
Substrate: 30lbs of "medium"-sized natural rock (from fish store)
Pumps: Marineland Emperor 280 & Hagen Elite Mini Underwater Filter (for aeration)
Date started: 4/4/09 (~5 weeks)

Fish: 1 x Black Moor Goldfish (approx 1.5-2")


Plants: Hygrophila difformis


Current tank pH: 6.4
Current tank Ammonia: ~.5ppm or less
Current tank Nitrite: 3-5ppm or more
Current tank Nitrate: not tested

Tap water pH: 7.2


Current feeding cycle: 5 days a week, once a day (fish pellets, fish flakes, and peas rotated)

Current chemical treatment:
- 1 x double dose of Amquel+ per day to try to keep the nitrite down
- 1 treatment of "pH stable" about 4-5 days ago
- 1 x dosage of "pH UP" to try to up the pH a bit
- about 1 x tablespoon of aquarium salt (to try to help with the Nitrite levels)


Other information:

Up until this week, I was changing 30% of the water daily in order to combat the Ammonia and then Nitrite in the system. I was told by two people at the local fish store (not Petco) that I was likely stalling the cycle by doing so many changes, and thus I've ceased changing the water, with the exception of 2 10% changes in the last 3 days in order to get rid of the brown algae and small white worms that had developed, and to clean out poop/obvious debris.


That said, how should I proceed hence-forth? I'm starting to get the sense that I should likely just let things work themselves out and stop trying to adjust things with chemicals. I will say that I have yet to change either of the filters: should I replace them or clean them out? Or should I wait until the tank is stable to do so?

Thanks everyone for your advice thus-far! Whether or not things are proceeding as we all would have liked them to, I have learned a lot about taking care of fish, and currently have what seems like a relatively happy Black Moor that swims around happily, eats whatever I give her, and plays around in her tank whenever we come into the room!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

In keeping with the advice from 1077 and Pasfur and codlong, don't add any chemicals to the tank; adjust/condition the water before it goes in at the partial water changes, but not in the tank with the fish.

Re the water changes, I myself do not think a partial water change will affect the cycling as the store may be suggesting, as long as it is just a water change. Do not vacuum the substrate (OK to go over it to pick up excess mulm if you think it is excessive but not into the gravel to agitate it). Do not touch the filter until the tank is cycled (consistent daily ammonia and nitrite readings of "0" for several consecutive days will indicate when the tank is cycled), and then only rinse the media in tank water or declorinated tap water.

I would let the pH go where it may until the cycling is complete, then look for the cause (if the ph is still dropping significantly).

In all things with fish, stability is important.


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## codlong (May 1, 2009)

Since nitrites are present, you're in the second phase of the cycle so that's good. The ammonia levels should go to zero quickly. The nitrite phase takes a lot longer, as the bacteria that process nitrites reproduce slower than the ammonia ones. When you start seeing nitrates showing up, you know the second population is growing.

I would stick with your partial water changes, 25% every day or so. Actually even gravel vaccuuming won't hurt. The bacteria you are growing secrete a "sticky glue" and really anchor themselves to whatever they are growing on -- the substrate, filter, driftwood etc. They will stay in the gravel and the detris will come out. As for stalling the cycle, it won't. It will slow it down just because you'll be removing nitrites which are a source of food for them, but you're trying to keep your fish alive too.


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