# New Tank Questions!!



## M44 (Apr 22, 2012)

Hi!
I had a 5 gallon tank a couple years ago, but now I would love to get back into the "fish business." Right now I would like a 3 gallon tank that I can plant live plants in. The aquarium I am looking at is the Aqueon Evolve 4 which is about 3.2 gallons. In this tank, I'd like to have a school of 3, possibly 4, Rasbora Heteromorpha Danio. The plants I am thinking about are: . Is that led light enough for these plants? The substrate I would like to have is a layer of CaribSea® FloraMax™ Planted Aquarium Substrate and then a thin layer of rocks or pebbles on top of that. How does that substrate sound? 

Now, I plan on doing a fishless cycle. I have pure ammonia. Here's my plan: 2 drops of ammonia daily until NO2 peak, then one drop daily (until nitrites 0 or until im ready to put fish in?). How does that all sound? Also I have a question about raising the temperature. Is it safe for the plants if I raise the temperature to around 85 degrees f. to speed up the cycle? Will this harm them?

How does this all sound? Anymore feedback or comments are welcome!!

Thank you!


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

First off, welcome to Tropical Fish Keeping forum.:-D

I am not absolutely certain what fish you have named, the link does not work, but I will assume the fish to be the Harlequin Rasbora, Trigonostigma heteromorpha. You can click the shaded name to see the profile with photos. If this is the species, it needs a larger group, no less than 6 but 8 or more is better, and that means a much larger tank space, no less than a 24-inch tank such as a 15g or 20g.

As for the cylcing, if live plants are intended you willnot need to do any "cycle" as the plants will do it for you. They assimilate ammonia as their preferred source of nitrogen. The temperature question is not relevant now, but for the record, a temp of 85F is very warm and this would likely affect some plants and fish long-term.

Byron.


----------



## M44 (Apr 22, 2012)

Thanks Byron for deleting that other post with the questions I had heard that you could keep those fish in a group of 3 or more, but if it's not going to be good for the fish, then I will find another species! How about one beta fish? Is there any other option or is that the only species?

Say I did have just one beta fish could I put some shrimp in there or a otocinclus? So the plants would easily be able to take care of the ammonia because of the low number of fish in the tank? Also, what if I set the tank up a day or so before I get the fish, should I put a drop of ammonia in there to keep the plants happy? 

Thanks again Byron!


----------



## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Never add ammonia when there are fish in the tank. Your fish is the ammonia source.
Are you cycling the tank or will it be heavily planted?
Otos are a no go because you need at least 3 of them.
As far as I'm concerned, a betta will be the only thing that'll fit in your tank. You can have some shrimp as well, I recommend amano, smaller shrimp have a chance of being eaten, some betta will eat them, some won't. I recommend going to the betta section of this forum, we have lots of care guides and such for them. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## M44 (Apr 22, 2012)

Thanks Olympia! I meant that I would put ammonia into the tank to feed the plants _until _I got my beta or whatever fish/shrimp I got. Yes, it will be fully planted with Dwarf Baby Tears, driftwood, Dwarf Hairgrass, and some taller plant for the back! Do you think those plants can take care of one or two fish?

What about a mystery snail? Would ghost shrimp be ok with the beta? And how many? Or what about 1 dwarf gourami? I've researched that they only get to about 2"? (my tank is 3.2 gallons).


----------



## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

A mystery snail might be a little too much bioload wise. You might be able to do a single rabbit snail if you can find one for sale. 
Ghost shrimp should do great.
Dwarf gourami are small, but very active and like large tanks.
A betta really is the only fish option in such a limited space.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## M44 (Apr 22, 2012)

Well, I will cross the mystery snail off my list. I am kind of stuck between a betta and dwarf gourami (i know that the gourami might be pushing it a bit, like you said olympia  ). I don't reallly get excited when I hear the word "beta" because everyone has them and it just seems like they are kind of boring. Then the dwarf gourami seems really interested and is small..... I think I will just set up my tank and put ammonia in it until I can figure out the fish I want


----------



## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

If you don't mind paying a high price- aquabid.com has stunning betta.
Before dwarf gourami, I'd recommend dwarf puffer, 3 gallons is a tad small, but for a single puffer it could work out.
Good luck with the plants!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## M44 (Apr 22, 2012)

Well, I researched some more and I think that I will get a male betta and some ghost shrimp. How many shrimp can I get? Will they multiply fast and if so how do I keep them from overcrowding my tank? 

Thanks!!:-D


----------



## M44 (Apr 22, 2012)

Or, what if I did 4 or 5 cardinal tetras? Or would that be too many?

Thanks!


----------



## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Nope, tetra are very active fish and need lot's of room to zoom around. 
A bright red betta looks stunning in a planted tank.


----------



## M44 (Apr 22, 2012)

Ok, well I think that that will be my fish unless I decide on getting a bigger tank

How many ghost shrimp should go in there? Do they multiply fast and if so, how do I keep their numbers at bay?
Thanks!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

I'd get 6ish.. I don't think you will have overpopulation- the betta takes care of most of the babies.


----------



## M44 (Apr 22, 2012)

Haha! Those will be his little snacks! I hope that my hc will do good with 3 watts/gallon and a nice plant substrate:-? The tank doesnt have a lid, will the shrimp climb out?


----------



## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

The shrimp won't climb out, they know they're goners out of water.
But any tank with a betta NEEDS a lid, so you are going to have to find something, as some betta are passionate jumpers. A lid also greatly reduces evaporation.


----------



## M44 (Apr 22, 2012)

What about this tank? It has a top but I don't know about the lighting. I researched and many people like led lighting for their plants. Does this led have enough watt or k? It sais it has 12 k white

http://www.petco.com/product/117299/Ecoxotic-EcoPico-Desktop-Fish-Aquarium.aspx?CoreCat=OnSiteSearch

Then there is this one: Fluval EBI Nano Shrimp Kit at PETCO . but i researched it and it only has 13 watt florescent lighting will is less than 2 watts per gallon.

Thanks!


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

M44 said:


> What about this tank? It has a top but I don't know about the lighting. I researched and many people like led lighting for their plants. Does this led have enough watt or k? It sais it has 12 k white
> 
> Ecoxotic EcoPico Desktop Fish Aquarium at PETCO
> 
> ...


The tank in the first link is 5 gallons. That in the second is almost 8 gallons. I cannot comment on the LED lighting because I've never seen these. But if the second tank has 13w of fluorescent (not LED), that should be sufficient. Watts per gallon is almost meaningless, it depends upon the intensity of the light and then the spectrum.

And to the ammonia issue from an earlier post, do not add any type of ammonia to the tank when planted. I woould use a good fertilizer like Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive Supplement or Brightwell Aquatics' FlorinMulti. Both do contain nitrogen (ammonium) and will tide the plants over until the fish is in. You will likely want to continue the liquid fertilizer after anyway. As waste settles into the substrate, ammonia and CO2 will occur naturally from that too.


----------



## M44 (Apr 22, 2012)

So 13 watts would be enough for dwarf hairgrass and especially for dwarf baby tears?
I'm just using lighting and substrate.

Thanks!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

M44 said:


> So 13 watts would be enough for dwarf hairgrass and especially for dwarf baby tears?
> I'm just using lighting and substrate.
> 
> Thanks!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not sure. These plants require brighter lighting than most, and that also means more nutrients and likely CO2.


----------



## M44 (Apr 22, 2012)

Well, do you know any good light that can clamp onto glass? I see all these good bulbs for sale but I don't know how people put them in their cases or how they use them!

Thanks!


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

M44 said:


> Well, do you know any good light that can clamp onto glass? I see all these good bulbs for sale but I don't know how people put them in their cases or how they use them!
> 
> Thanks!


My knowledge on these is limited, which is to say non-existant basically. I do know I have seen some nice smallish tanks in one of my local fish stores with LED type lighting and they seem to be doing well, but I've no idea of the lighting specs. Hopefully another member might.


----------



## M44 (Apr 22, 2012)

Hey I think I just found a great fluorescent light! And its a clamp! Here's the link: Archaea 27W power compact light fixture (clamp on type) [AIC-008] - $60.00 : Aqua Forest Aquarium, ADA USA, Aqua Design Amano . It will provide around 3.75 watts/gallon in a 8 gallon tank which is perfect for dwarf baby tears right? Here is the tank again: Fluval Nano Flora Aquatic Plant Kit at PETCO

Thanks!And in this tank would I be able to house a school of 5 or 6 small fish? And if so, could the plants take care of that much waste? Or would I need to cycle it?


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

M44 said:


> Hey I think I just found a great fluorescent light! And its a clamp! Here's the link: Archaea 27W power compact light fixture (clamp on type) [AIC-008] - $60.00 : Aqua Forest Aquarium, ADA USA, Aqua Design Amano . It will provide around 3.75 watts/gallon in a 8 gallon tank which is perfect for dwarf baby tears right? Here is the tank again: Fluval Nano Flora Aquatic Plant Kit at PETCO
> 
> Thanks!And in this tank would I be able to house a school of 5 or 6 small fish? And if so, could the plants take care of that much waste? Or would I need to cycle it?


That would certainly provide sufficient light, having been desinged by ADA. Might need CO2 to balance though.

Small fish, just to ensure we are on the same page, means "dwarf" species such as Ember Tetra, one of the Boraras rasbora species, spark;ling gourami, scarlet badis, and similar fish if soft water. In medium hard water there are Endlers Livebearers and a few cyprinids.


----------



## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

3 male endlers would be stunning. 
Do you know your water hardness and pH?


----------



## M44 (Apr 22, 2012)

I mean rasboras or tetras or other small schooling tetras. Wish I could get some endlers locally Would have definitely gotten those! 

If I get another replacement light for the tank which is 13 watts fluorescent, would that double the amount of wattage to 26 watts per gallon? With that amount it would be perfect! (and cheaper than afa).


----------



## M44 (Apr 22, 2012)

I don't know my ph levels but I can take it sometime soon because i have my previous testing kit!


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I'm getting a bit lost in this thread, probably becuase I'm active in several consecutively. But I will just throw in a caution on all this light.

Consider the poor fish. These forest fish occur in very dimly lit waters, and bright overhead light is highly stressful. The light over any aquarium should never be greater than what is absolutley essential for the plant growth. More is not in this case better, far from it. I have an article on Light, and one on stress, in the Freshwater Articles section.


----------



## M44 (Apr 22, 2012)

What light is absolutely essential for dwarf baby tears?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Aquatic Plants for Freshwater Aquariums: Dwarf Baby Tears
I don't think you should try this plant, it probably won't do well.
Why not look into some type of Pellia? It's similar looking and better suited.


----------



## M44 (Apr 22, 2012)

I will look into the pellia! How are people successful with baby tears with fish and high lighting? Would 13 watts per 8 gallon + CO2 + good substrate be enough for them? What if I had a plant in one corner that allowed shade? Like on top of the water?


----------



## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

If you provided them with a CO2 system and fertilization, you would have good growth under that light.


----------



## M44 (Apr 22, 2012)

Ok, I think that is what I am going to do! The tank comes with a nice mini CO2 and I will get good substrate. The lighting will be almost 2 watts per gallon but I think it'll work. If not then i will change to Pelia!! Thanks so much Olympia and Byron for all your help and I probably not done with the questions! If you have anymore advice please feel free to let me know it!

Thank you!!:-D


----------



## M44 (Apr 22, 2012)

Hi again! Like I predicted, I have more questions

I have ordered my tank and the plants will hopefully come a day or two after I get the tank. My question is, if I don't plan to stock the tank for a week or so, should I add a couple of drops of ammonia to feed the plants? Or if I were to add 4 or so ghost shrimp, would they produce enough ammonia for the plants until I get fish?

Or am I just getting mixed up and plants dont need ammonia?

Thanks!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Don't add ammonia with the plants in...
The plants will be fine without food for a while. If you want you can use a fertilizer like flourish tabs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## M44 (Apr 22, 2012)

Ok I won't add ammonia! Will a couple of shrimp and a couple of fish be enough ammonia supply for the plants in the long run?

Thank you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Yes, it is all about balance.

On the fertilizer, rather than substrate tabs I would use liquid which feeds all plants. Some plants absorb certain nutrients via the leaves no tht eroots, so a comprehensive liquid covers all bases. And the two I recomended do contain some nitrogen (ammonium). Do not add ammonia to the tank with plants as Olympia mentioned.


----------



## rhymon78 (Mar 17, 2012)

Byron said:


> Yes, it is all about balance.
> 
> On the fertilizer, rather than substrate tabs I would use liquid which feeds all plants. Some plants absorb certain nutrients via the leaves no tht eroots, so a comprehensive liquid covers all bases. And the two I recomended do contain some nitrogen (ammonium). Do not add ammonia to the tank with plants as Olympia mentioned.


Hey Byron, when you add liquid ferts. like flourish comp. say, do you just pour the measure directly into the top of the tank? or should it be mixed with some tank water and then poured back in? just wondering how it gets all around the tank to all the plants, I am guessing it just gets sucked into the filter and then ejected again etc?

Cheers
Simon


----------



## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

rhymon78 said:


> Hey Byron, when you add liquid ferts. like flourish comp. say, do you just pour the measure directly into the top of the tank? or should it be mixed with some tank water and then poured back in? just wondering how it gets all around the tank to all the plants, I am guessing it just gets sucked into the filter and then ejected again etc?
> 
> Cheers
> Simon


For Prime it suggest "May be added to aquarium directly, but better if added to new water first. If adding directly to aquarium, base dose on aquarium volume. "

For Flourish you just put it right in. "Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 250 L (60 gallons*) once or twice a week. For smaller doses, please note that each cap thread is approximately 1 mL. Refrigeration after opening is recommended but not required."

The liquid furtz mainly will be in the water which is great for floating and stem plants. Root tabs will diffuse in the substrate allowing better access to minerals for rooting plants. The liquid fertilizer will go everywhere covering the bases for root tabs as Byron states. Those plants that do have roots take in minerals both from the water and their roots.

If you have a tank established longer than a year than it usually has enough decomposed matter at the bottom which will really help the plants. (assuming no heavy cleaning of the substrate is being done). Therefore root tabs really aren't essential, especially in mature tanks.

I dose 2x a week because with the filter pads, the plants and the time I feel like the chemicals get used up quite fast.

*Note: Prime makes Flourish useless, so make sure to use it 24 hours after you dose a tank with Prime.*

Hope this helps.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Some members have listened to me...:greenyay:

Yes, I just measure it with a 1/2 teaspoon (from one of those kitchen measuring spoon sets, just for aquarium use of course) and pour it in the tank, usually at the end with the filter return to help dissipate it.

Byron.


----------



## rhymon78 (Mar 17, 2012)

Ok, I have just poured it around on the surface but will add it near the filter return, sounds a good idea! 

We all listen to you Byron, the Dark Knight, Jedi master, grand master wizard of all things fishy! All your responses are much appreciated, and everyone else's too! 

As for substrate cleaning during water changes on a planted tank, just hovering the siphon above the gravel will suck enough away, like fish poo and un eaten food etc. not a good idea to dig the gravel cleaner in? Yet to use my siphon, have been doing water changes with a measuring jug lol.... Tank is only a couple or so months old..


----------



## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

rhymon78 said:


> Ok, I have just poured it around on the surface but will add it near the filter return, sounds a good idea!
> 
> We all listen to you Byron, the Dark Knight, Jedi master, grand master wizard of all things fishy! All your responses are much appreciated, and everyone else's too!
> 
> As for substrate cleaning during water changes on a planted tank, just hovering the siphon above the gravel will suck enough away, like fish poo and un eaten food etc. not a good idea to dig the gravel cleaner in? Yet to use my siphon, have been doing water changes with a measuring jug lol.... Tank is only a couple or so months old..


I agree, Thanks Byron for everything! 

You have the right idea for the gravel. I heard of some people not even doing that much...just taking the water out of the tank. I like to keep my nitrates in check though and not have too much organic matter decomposing. 

I wouldn't go deeper in as it can disturb the gravel sending all that matter into the open water. Creates a nice mess. Sometimes you can go deeper without disturbing it. Although it sounds like its bad to have that decomposing matter down, it will benefit the plants more than anything.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

In most of my tanks (all of which are planted) I never touch the substrate. In two I do a light vacuum, but more because I have had a problem with cyano in one and my groups of loaches are in the other. But I suggest not vacuuming the substrate.

To Termato's issue of organics and nitrates, you should not have nitrates above 10ppm, and probably under 5 ppm in a natural planted tank. Organics are essential in the substrate for the complex relationship between bacteria, plant roots and water. I detail this here, there is a section on substrate:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-articles/bacteria-freshwater-aquarium-74891/

Byron.


----------



## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

Byron said:


> In most of my tanks (all of which are planted) I never touch the substrate. In two I do a light vacuum, but more because I have had a problem with cyano in one and my groups of loaches are in the other. But I suggest not vacuuming the substrate.
> 
> To Termato's issue of organics and nitrates, you should not have nitrates above 10ppm, and probably under 5 ppm in a natural planted tank. Organics are essential in the substrate for the complex relationship between bacteria, plant roots and water. I detail this here, there is a section on substrate:
> http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-articles/bacteria-freshwater-aquarium-74891/
> ...


Thanks! I guess after reading that it would be best to not touch it at all.

My substrate is not too deep therefore it will be good for the tank.


----------

