# Time for a hobby revolution!



## statenfish (Sep 1, 2009)

Well here it is.. the post that will no doubt make me public enemy #1! I have been following some threads recently and im noticing a scary trend..we have a few hobbiests who are approaching the status of fish nazi! every time a beginner asks a question they get a 1000 word response mostly telling them 2 things: their tank is to small, and their fish wont survive. as for the first response regardeing tank size...ENOUGH ALREADY! i do agree that an oscar in a five gallon bown is cruel, i would just like to point out a simple fact...No tank on earth is big enough for any species of fish..an oscar in a 100,000 gallon tank is still being kept in an enviornment well below its natural one. A newcomer is likely to feel that they have to be a chemist to understand and keep an tank running. whenever a fish dies all the questions start about ph, amonia , nitrates, and god knows what else. heres a shocker..these are mass bred, aften hybrid fish..its a miracle they live at all! I have two oscars in a 120 and i can honestly sya that i have no idea what the levels are in my tank. This being said, they are looking great and the water is crystal clear..all that from simple water changes and gravel vaccuuming. I do understand that the tech aspect is the draw for some people, but stop hammering others with the same views you hold..If i can keep oscars in my 120 thriving with thiese simple methods, im sure a 30 gallon with some tetras and mollies can be kept without a degree in chemistry. All i wanna do is bring the fun back! lets all just relax and remember its a hobby. Remember no one gets into the hobby so they can have a complicated fulltime job on their hands, so lets all do our part to make this fun again.. ok guys..time to let me have it! lol


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

It is precisely these kind of posts that confuse the new hobbyist. People who come here in large part are seeking answers,not five or six differing views. The questions and statements with regards to a persons particular situation are in an effort to not just state an opinion, but to try and explain why that opinion is ,based on knowledge that the particular new hobbyist ,may or may not be aware of. If they don't like what they hear,, then they are welcome to seek others opinions. All tanks,all water ,all fish,are different. And as such ,one needs to approach them differently at times.
Am pleased that you are able to provide for your fish and that they remain healthy. And I have yet to hear anyone ,other than you,complain about lengthy responses designed to provide the information being sought ,or in an effort to eliminate possible contributers to a specific problem or tank. Most I suspect,,appreciate the time the folks here are willing to take to respond. Fish keeping is indeed fun once one understands what is needed to make it so.
P.S Mollies and neons do not share same basic requirements with regards to water chemistry. One or the other will not survive long if kept together. Mollies require hard basic alkaline water and tetras need rather soft neutral conditions and much cooler water than livebearers. 
It is this kind of misinformation that results in sick fish and new hobbyist's become frustrated when the fish become sick or die and they do not understand why. Usually ,,fish illness can be directly related to the water quality or lack therof. Some estimate as much as 80 to 90 percent.
Let those who feel as you do respond. It is with considerable difficulty that I am able to communicate in this way,, If those who feel as you do ,respond,,then I will not waste the effort at trying to help them.


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

well i feel compelled to chime in here... i agree that it is a hobby and that it should not be overly stressful, however, i think the lack of stress comes from knowlage. if i have a bit of advice to offer it is 97% of the time from my own experience (3% gleamed from research). does it matter to me personally that an Oscar needs a large tank? no not really i dont intend on having any however i am very grateful that when my Platies got Ick for the second time after chemical treatment that someone had the know how on how to treat with out chemicals and with out cost... and as 1077 stated if one does not wish to except the advice they are free to dismiss it after all you get what you pay for and once it is yours do what you want right?
YES enjoy the hobbie with out a PHD but YES go to those who have that PHD for expert advice when you are lost... we kind of do the same thing with our selves dont we? i mean honestly i am not about to perform brain surgery over a head ache but if my head ache last a long time i am going to a doctor to have them fix it ....


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## Twistersmom (Dec 9, 2008)

For the most part, keeping fish is a fun enjoyable hobby.

There are times when fish become ill. People, including myself, seek answers here. This is our current list of questions to held diagnose the fish and find a solution. http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/tropical-fish-diseases/must-read-all-members-please-read-652/

So, if someone ask you, what can I do to help my fish become well again, what would you say?

I think knowing how the aquarium cycle works, knowing what fish are compatible, are all things that will help the hobbyist have better success. So, less stress and more enjoyment.


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## Fishin Pole (Feb 17, 2009)

questioning what we ask a beginner for their problems?.............Isnt that why thery are here too seek information on a particular problem?........How should we handle their issues?............You are correct, alot of us will state "your tank is too small".........And do you know why?......becuase usually the beginner purchased fish with bad info from the LFS or printed material thay provide........They end up with problems when it doesnt work for them........They turn to forums, such as this, for experienced hobbyists to answer questions and give solutions to their problem, and alot of the time, the problem is overcrowding of their newly purchased tank, thus leading to deaths and illnesses......

Being a chemist is not needed in the hobby, but understanding your tank water and how it can be affected by parasites, toxins and other foreign matter is quite needed...........Some new members have no idea that limestone they just added to their tank is gonna raise their Ph and wonder why their fish arent doing well......Asking the simple questions can allow other members to diagnose and help with certain issues.........Knowing such things as, tank size, how old the tank is, Ph, water conditioners used, recently added decor, switch in foods.......can all affect water chemistry and answering these things can possibly help save some peoples fish........

Isnt that whay they came here in the first place to seek help and info to keep their fish healthy?........Would it be better for them to NOT ask questions and have them try everything to fix a certain problem?........Saving the fish and having new hobbyists tanks thrive is what is gonna keep this hobby going............Trying to help without the questions is futile......Letting the problems continue, is just ending up with dead fish


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## MoneyMitch (Aug 3, 2009)

1077 said:


> It is precisely these kind of posts that confuse the new hobbyist. People who come here in large part are seeking answers,not five or six differing views. The questions and statements with regards to a persons particular situation are in an effort to not just state an opinion, but to try and explain why that opinion is ,based on knowledge that the particular new hobbyist ,may or may not be aware of. If they don't like what they hear,, then they are welcome to seek others opinions. All tanks,all water ,all fish,are different. And as such ,one needs to approach them differently at times.
> Am pleased that you are able to provide for your fish and that they remain healthy. And I have yet to hear anyone ,other than you,complain about lengthy responses designed to provide the information being sought ,or in an effort to eliminate possible contributers to a specific problem or tank. Most I suspect,,appreciate the time the folks here are willing to take to respond. Fish keeping is indeed fun once one understands what is needed to make it so.
> P.S Mollies and neons do not share same basic requirements with regards to water chemistry. One or the other will not survive long if kept together. Mollies require hard basic alkaline water and tetras need rather soft neutral conditions and much cooler water than livebearers.
> It is this kind of misinformation that results in sick fish and new hobbyist's become frustrated when the fish become sick or die and they do not understand why. Usually ,,fish illness can be directly related to the water quality or lack therof. Some estimate as much as 80 to 90 percent.
> Let those who feel as you do respond. It is with considerable difficulty that I am able to communicate in this way,, If those who feel as you do ,respond,,then I will not waste the effort at trying to help them.


not going to flame the OP here but rather just back 1077 here 200%


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

statenfish said:


> every time a beginner asks a question they get a 1000 word response mostly telling them 2 things: their tank is to small, and their fish wont survive. as for the first response regardeing tank size...ENOUGH ALREADY! i do agree that an oscar in a five gallon bown is cruel, i would just like to point out a simple fact...No tank on earth is big enough for any species of fish..an oscar in a 100,000 gallon tank is still being kept in an enviornment well below its natural one.


Remember they come to us asking these questions. If I see a oscar in a 5 gallon bowl and the owner doesn't care I'm not bothered to offer him advice. Those that do care are entitled to get the correct advice. That is what they came here for. Remember fish most fish are farm raised, oscars included. Hence natural habitat size has nothing to do with it. A fish kept properly in captivity is likely to outlive its live in its natural habitat. 



statenfish said:


> heres a shocker..these are mass bred, aften hybrid fish..its a miracle they live at all!


 The are mass bred and often culled. Most of our fish are not hybrid fish. Sure there are hybrids, but they are a very small percentage. A hybrid is a cross between to different species. Most of our fish are "man-made" and products of artificial selection. I don't see why it is a miracle that they live at all....... 



statenfish said:


> I have two oscars in a 120 and i can honestly sya that i have no idea what the levels are in my tank. This being said, they are looking great and the water is crystal clear..all that from simple water changes and gravel vaccuuming. I do understand that the tech aspect is the draw for some people, but stop hammering others with the same views you hold..If i can keep oscars in my 120 thriving with thiese simple methods, im sure a 30 gallon with some tetras and mollies can be kept without a degree in chemistry.l


The chemistry is not necessary in running a tank. It does make it easier IMO. All a tank needs is basic stuff like gravel vacs and WC. Its when something goes wrong, the best way to correct it, that is where the chemistry and biology come into play. Its important to understand the effects of what you are doing. A tank doesn't need testing every day once it is stable. I don't know the levels in my own tank, I do know what will through them off. Things like gavel vacs and water changes are there to keep the chemistry stable. If you didn't know the reason for them, would you still do them?


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## redlessi (Jul 22, 2009)

I will chime in here, I know from my experience on this forum a lot of questions I asked were responded to with kindness and lots of information that was useful. I have had on the other hand a few that I felt were very sarcastic with a lot of attitude. I think to hammer someone for their mistake is pointless. If someone did not want to take better care of their fish, they would not seek out information. A lot of people start fish tanks and dont realize the amount of work/knowledge that goes along with keeping it healthy. There is definitely more to it than just getting a tank and adding fish. I think it is important to give answers, especially to newbies, that stay away from being too critical and focus on finding a solution to the problems.


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## statenfish (Sep 1, 2009)

i agree with you on some points..we should give them answers..but not innundate them with the typical your tank is to small and your wate levels are off..i have news for you guys..all of our tanks are to small! nature provides the ideal habitiat for these fish and any tank we get is way to small.. not all people who get the typical negative responses ask for help. they just talk about their tank, and then the small tank complaints start. as i mentioned my friend is a marine biologist affiliated w a major aquarium, and he always tells me the same thing...its a crap shoot if they live or die! he loses specimens all the time and no one in here knows better then he does about fish care and water parameters...its mostly luck!


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I think we are all here to share our knowledge and experiences with each other. I have gotten some great advice from members here in the year and a half that I have been here. I don't think a person has to have a degree in marine biology to know how to take care of fish properly. I don't have a problem with people giving me advice as long as they aren't smart alecky and rude about it.


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

Sorry but its not luck. You may be able to keep a basic aquarium with luck. But those that know what they are doing will excel. You don't breed freshwater rays or discus, and you don't run high tech planted tanks or marine reef tanks with luck it requires skill and knowledge. Sure fish can still die in the best of care and environment for no reason at all. Some species specialize in doing this. Those that know what they are doing will still have much better results. I've seen a hobbyist spend a couple 100 dollars on a single fish, they don't buy that fish and just hope luck keeps in alive, because luck won't. 

As far as bringing up stocking issues when the question is not asked. Its too avoid the trouble down the road. Someone new with a overstocked tank, usually does not realize it. We are simply offering advice. If they don't care their tank is overstock I'm fine with that. However if they come back with problems(too much algae, water problems, fish health issues) it always points back to the overstocking. I've seen people ignore stocking advice, then keep asking why they are having problem when they have a tank with 3x as many fish as they should. Eventually people stop replying to their posts because its clear our advice is going down the drain. 

I have seen the reverse where someone is attacked because of their overstocking, every one of their threads is hijacked. 

Everyone in this hobby has at some point been told that they overstock/ don't care for their fish properly. I've been told more than once. Advice is advice, people are not required to follow it. Everyone has there own opinions and beliefs. 

This site though is very mellow. I have yet to see a real flaming or argument here. There's not even a word filter.... you won't get attacked here.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

I agree with Mikaila , With a lotta luck,you may be able to win a few bucks shootin craps. But luck has little to do with survival rate of tropical fish we keep and or whether they remain healthy in a galss box of water. 
There is little room for error and many ways to make the hobby stressful.


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## jmlampert23 (Oct 21, 2009)

MoneyMitch said:


> not going to flame the OP here but rather just back 1077 here 200%


 
there is no need to write a huge response but totally agree with mitch and 1077 ill back them 1000%


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

does any one else see a trend here??? almost all of us have over stocked, been lost with out a clue, tried stuff that didnt work learned how to make it work and shared that information, asked for advice and ignored at least one bit of it, offered advice and been listened to as well as ignored them selves, and above all are open to a discussion about all of it!!!!!! i think regardless of whether or not you personally chose to accept what is offered, be it put in technical terms or brought down to my personal idiot leve,l we as a community of fish keepers are coming together in a wonderful place with great people and making the hobbie fun on all levels....
let it go.


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## mollies (Mar 27, 2009)

Yea its just a hobby. Just like restoring classic cars, Well i could just spray a coat of paint on with out the primer. ( not a good idea) ( wont last). Well i could start a tank with no water (fish will die) ( not a good idea). Well your hobby is truly a job all hobbys are. You will want the best for what ever hobby it is. The rest of us just want to help thos who need it and ask for it. Remember you came here and asked a few questions to as most of us have. The rest of us have gave you are best answers.


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## MikeyG (Sep 13, 2009)

I agree with everything everyone has said, plus I want the fish in Mikaila's avatar! 

Seriously though, I have overstocked, been told I am overstocked, lost fish, been frustrated, etc...but for the most part I got good advice from everyone. In fact, at one time, 1077 told me to back away from the ammonia test kit! And Byron has been full of sage advice regarding cories and water chemistry. Yeah, there are always going to be people that troll the "stocking suggestions" threads and say "you're grossly overstocked" or some such thing. I'm sure if I asked, someone on here would tell me that I have no business keeping 8 pygmy cories, 6 CPD's, 6 burma gold spot danios, 2 honeycomb oil cats, 2 CPO's and a dozen or so RCS in a 16g bowfront. (By the way, I use an unconventional alternative to the inch/gallon rule...if all the fish in my tank can fit in a shot glass, I'm not overstocked)

The solution is simple. Do a search before you ask, read the threads, note the members that seem to giive good, constructive advice, and when you finally do ask your question, look for the replies from them. Then, as Yoda would say, "Do, or do not..."

That is all.


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## Kelso (Oct 28, 2009)

MikeyG said:


> I agree with everything everyone has said, plus I want the fish in Mikaila's avatar!
> 
> Seriously though, I have overstocked, been told I am overstocked, lost fish, been frustrated, etc...but for the most part I got good advice from everyone. In fact, at one time, 1077 told me to back away from the ammonia test kit! And Byron has been full of sage advice regarding cories and water chemistry. Yeah, there are always going to be people that troll the "stocking suggestions" threads and say "you're grossly overstocked" or some such thing. I'm sure if I asked, someone on here would tell me that I have no business keeping 8 pygmy cories, 6 CPD's, 6 burma gold spot danios, 2 honeycomb oil cats, 2 CPO's and a dozen or so RCS in a 16g bowfront. (By the way, I use an unconventional alternative to the inch/gallon rule...if all the fish in my tank can fit in a shot glass, I'm not overstocked)
> 
> ...


I liked this post. Hahaha...but really, if you werent trolling, you still did a good job making people get all in a tizzy. You more than likely knew what all responses were gonna be like...


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## MikeyG (Sep 13, 2009)

npjpkac said:


> I liked this post. Hahaha...but really, if you werent trolling, you still did a good job making people get all in a tizzy. You more than likely knew what all responses were gonna be like...


Well, naturally before I would post a question I would do a search first and make sure my question wasn't already asked and answered a jillion times, but with forum search engines what they are...that and I might find an answer to a similar question, but not one that fit my circumstances *exactly* so I would ask.

And nothing I have previously posted has tizzied anyone! Evar!

And in the event you weren't talking to me....as Gilda Radner once said..."Never Mind!"


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## Kelso (Oct 28, 2009)

oh no...I was referring to the op, hahahha...sorry for the confusion!


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## Calmwaters (Sep 2, 2009)

Very nicely said 1077.


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## mastermindc3pro (Nov 28, 2009)

Im new to the site, i am a beginner, and i enjoy the fact that my questions are answered here, and i like the fact that im being given pointers from people who have had experience were i am lacking it, and that my negatives are pointed out. Even if i am recieving a negative feedback if my tank is to small for the fish or something like that, i take that information and use it in the future so i can learn from it. For the most part everything i have asked has been answered and has worked from the tips i have recieved here. Im positive i will be posting here in the future for more advice and i am positive i will come to this forum first before i even go to a petsmart or petco.


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## willieturnip (Aug 30, 2009)

Hybrids are massively frowned upon within the hobby.

Crystal clear water and fish that "look good" means nothing as to how healthy they are.

I (unfortunately) saw about a grands worth of dead marines due to a useless courier service. The water was crystal clear and they did indeed look good, but they certainly weren't in good health.

Water tests aren't necessary once the tank is stable. 

You are clearly inexperienced and unless this post is clearly dismissed by the forum as a whole it will be responsible for the ill health and possibly death of fish.


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## MikeyG (Sep 13, 2009)

willieturnip said:


> Hybrids are massively frowned upon within the hobby.
> 
> Crystal clear water and fish that "look good" means nothing as to how healthy they are.
> 
> ...


While I can't speak for everyone, I'm pretty sure that getting personal is massively frowned on in this forum, if not the hobby in general. 



willieturnip said:


> Water tests aren't necessary once the tank is stable.


You just made the OP's point for him. He is saying you shouldn't have to understand the intricacies of the nitrogen cycle, algae, etc to enjoy fishkeeping.


I don't agree with everything the OP said, for sure, but dude, be civil or be silent, pleeeeeeze.

Mods....this thread is approaching the point where Godwin's law applies, maybe time to consider closing the thread.


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

agreed 100% there is no reason for that kind of attack during an intelligent conversation...... please be kind to one an other we are all here to express our selves but be fair to all sides ........ and no reason EVER for name calling here that would be some of the other places on the web..


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

bearwithfish said:


> agreed 100% there is no reason for that kind of attack during an intelligent conversation...... please be kind to one an other we are all here to express our selves but be fair to all sides ........ and no reason EVER for name calling here that would be some of the other places on the web..


Agreed.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

willieturnip said:


> Crystal clear water and fish that "look good" means nothing as to how healthy they are.
> 
> Water tests aren't necessary once the tank is stable.


I would be interested in some clarification on these statements. It seems that you only have 2 ways to judge the health of a system. You either use visual observations, or you use a test kit. Yes?

I would personally encourage everyone to use every test they have. This includes your eyes and careful observation of every fish in the aquarium, at least a few times per week. Are the fish swimming well and, free of spots and torn fins? Are the eyes cloudy? Are the scales shiny and vibrant? Do the fish actively compete in the feeding area? All of these signs are visual and help to determine the health of a fish.

The same can be said of the water to some degree. Is there any cloudiness or yellow tint to the water? Cloudiness could signal a bacterial bloom, resulting from an ammonia spike. A yellow tint is possibly a sign of increased dissolved organic acids, tinting the water and suggesting that water changes are not being performed frequently enough. True, these are not perfect "tests", but they sure give you some warning signs on occasion that something could be wrong.

I personally also like to test the water, especially for pH and general hardness. These tests can provide you with some trends as to how the water is behaving between water changes. There have been occasions over the years where a rapid drop in hardness was an indication to me that something was wrong. Something as simple as a filter pad which went unchanged inside a canister filter could cause waste to decay, depleting the buffer system, lowering hardness, and ultimately causing pH to rapidly drop. A dead fish which has gone unnoticed could cause the same reaction. A simple hardness and pH test gives you confirmation that your water changing routine is effective, and that you have not overlooked a normal aspect of your aquarium maintenance routine.


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## willieturnip (Aug 30, 2009)

What I mean by stable, is nothing else is ever going to change. 

You feed the same, stock the same, the fish stay the same. All of the variables that might change the parameters of the water are set to a constant. 

If literally, nothing has changed, you should be able to predict accurately what your test results will be before you do them. At this stage I deem testing pointless. Maybe once in a long while, but thats it. You don't actually need any indications of how your tank is doing, because it's a stable ecosystem and everything is working how it should. Anybody that doesn't have a set regime and tests the water regularly to see what needs doing to keep the system going is doing it wrong. The tank should be almost self reliant, not reliant on the owner.

Im am absolutely not agreeing with the OP. He/She (as far as I read it) is saying that you never need to test the water and you need no understanding of anything that is happening within the tank. This is ridiculous if you ask me. 

I apologize for the name calling, it was childish and completely uncalled for.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

I found myself nodding my head up and down reading your last post willie. I completely understand where you are coming from and in many cases run aquariums exactly as you mention. It is really in situations with tanks that are more heavily stocked or have fish with specific pH demands where weekly testing becomes more relevant. Good post.


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

now wee all seem to be reading the (meaning) the same thing ...LOL funny how a small spark gets conversation going in a better direction......


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## Jolly Jerry (Apr 17, 2009)

I like to read the posts on here. I take from it what I need and pay little attention to the negative part. I do my water changes and enjoy all my fish hybrids or not. Thanks to everyone on here that has helped me over the last couple of months. Im trying my hand with cichlids so Im sure there are many more questions to come.

Sincerely,
Jerry


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## ChristinaRoss (Sep 4, 2009)

im pretty new here too, and i appreciate the time it takes for everyone to respond to any of my questions. also appreciate the support when ive done a good job.
i appreciate THIS forum. period.
my 2 cents


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## statenfish (Sep 1, 2009)

well that jumped up a notch didnt it? guess who isnt sending me a christmas card this year! lol


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## nfored (Mar 31, 2008)

When Cycling I was checking levels daily, then after cycle weekly, then after a while monthly, then never. It was wasting my money, I don't even own a water test kit any more, once the tank is up and safely running, proper water changes keep it there. The only time I check my water is if I setup a new tank, or have some thing bad happen.

So it sounds like I think you don't need to know about Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate, gh, kh, ph, co2, on and on and on with the chems and elements. That is not the truth, you do need to understand these things, for troubleshooting problems, and for caring for different tank setups. 

As far as the your tank is to small, it depends on how its done. For example I wanted Bala sharks I research and found out how big they got. I started them in a 55 Gallon, people told me it was to small, I appreciated this, not because I didn't know that already, but because they didn't know if i did or didn't. I knew they need a bigger tank and was saving for the 220 I have now. However I would have felt like a bad person had I kept them in the 55 gallon not knowing what they really needed or how big they get. Let pet smart tell it I can keep 5 or 6 of these in a 55 gallon tank.

In regrades to the length of the answers, what good do short answer do, it they don't have enough information for the newbie to get the knowledge. What seems like over kill to someone who knows the hobby because they know all of it and it seems like trivial redundant information; may in fact only be just enough or not enough for the newbie. I am a computer tech and when I go to training I am like this is BS and boring, because its just repeat information to me, but the sales people in the same training leave still not understanding 100%

You know whats fun? having fish that are health and active because of proper care. With proper care and and knowledge it will take little work to keep happy fish.


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