# ALL of of my fish are dead or dying!!!!



## Aphid (Feb 11, 2010)

My boyfriend has a ten gallon tank. A while back, there was some problem we never discovered that caused many of his fish to die over about a two week time span. He finally figured it was city water and since then has been using store-bought purified water and his fish have been great. Slowly, he has been rebuilding his fish collection, having had lost so many. 

He had two fish with red faces (I don't know their name), two neon glow fish, a kissing fish he has had longer than we have been together (We've been together seven years), an algae eater, a glass fish and a catfish. He had these a while, four or five months. Then, just recently we got two mollies, then three calico-looking fish, and an angel fish. One calico fish died right off; this was probably normal; it was from wal-mart and that happens. All of these fish were purchased far enough apart that it didn't seem that any of them were carrying a disease or parasite. 

When he bought the angel fish (the newest addition), he also bought a live plant. Ever since he added the angel and plant, the fish acted dazed, for a week. Then they started floating sideways or round and round in strange patterns. His mollies started doing a dance akin to the Charleston. 

He thought maybe it was the plant! So he took it out. Four fish floated to the top that had been dead inside this plant. His redfaced ones, one calico one, and his glass fish. Then we found one neon in another plant, dead.

After taking the plant out, his kissing fish, who had been hovering at the bottom, seemed to come out of his stupor and swimmed around. This was night before last. My b/f said they seemed to be doing better, but he was still scared for his catfish, who was still acting very strange. Early yesterday, the catfish died. Then, last night, the kissing fish went BERZERK!!! He splashed around and hit the glass until he began to bleed. Then my b/f noticed one of the mollies was bloody too. And the angelfish is dead.

His thirteen fish tank went down to a four fish tank in 48 hours. He cleaned the tank very well and added fresh water and he does this regularly. 

PLEASE help us figure this out!! 

Also, if you have made it through this very long post, I sincerely thank you! I wanted to be incredibly thorough in case it's a detail we didn't spot.

Also, I do not know what sort of plant it was, it is a real plant and floated. It had a long stem with short stems coming from it and was sort of spongy-like. :-?


----------



## Kelso (Oct 28, 2009)

Sounds like a normal case of overstocking and death by poison. Essentially, you had way too many fish and the bacteria were never allowed to fully colonize or keep up with the demands of the tank. Stress as well as the addition of fish from a dirty store such as Wal-Mart didn't help. There is no reason to spend money on water. All you need is a good water conditioner. It sounds like you should have done a lot more research and preparation for keeping fish.


----------



## Aphid (Feb 11, 2010)

I appreciate your response and insight, but I could do without that last snarky comment. It may be evident in this post that *I* do not know anything about fish. But it is my boyfriend's tank, and I assure you, he takes his tank very seriously and has done research. What you are telling me it might be could be the bit of information he missed in his research. Please do not assume he doesn't know what he's doing based on one mistake. He has kept fish for at least ten years and never had a problem like this before. He was incredibly upset over this.

That being said, how many fish should a person have in a ten gallon tank. Does size of the fish matter when deciding how many fish I should have in my tank? (ie, can I have five fish, or five small fish and two big fish, ect?)

Also, my boyfriend said he thought it could be that his heater overheated; is this a possible cause of this kind of death?


----------



## Kelso (Oct 28, 2009)

Aphid said:


> I appreciate your response and insight, but I could do without that last snarky comment. It may be evident in this post that *I* do not know anything about fish. But it is my boyfriend's tank, and I assure you, he takes his tank very seriously and has done research. What you are telling me it might be could be the bit of information he missed in his research. Please do not assume he doesn't know what he's doing based on one mistake. He has kept fish for at least ten years and never had a problem like this before. He was incredibly upset over this.
> 
> That being said, how many fish should a person have in a ten gallon tank. Does size of the fish matter when deciding how many fish I should have in my tank? (ie, can I have five fish, or five small fish and two big fish, ect?)
> 
> Also, my boyfriend said he thought it could be that his heater overheated; is this a possible cause of this kind of death?


I wasn't being snarky. I was being honest and blunt, and if that's the case, your boyfriend should have done more research. What he has done is a very big mistake which led me to say what I did. A ten gallon tank is not suitable for almost any of the fish you said. A ten gallon is only suitable for any fish that doesn't get over 3 inches, and even then you must make sure that any of the fish you purchase don't need to be in schools if they are around three inches full grown. Neon tetras get to be around 1 inch, so a school of six would do well, maybe an apple snail, and five pygmy corydoras. Any fish that gets bigger than 4 inches shouldn't even be kept in such a small enclosure. Bettas can get up to 3 inches, so really them, maybe a few otos and some frogs would do well. With such a small volume of water, you cannot really expect fish to live comfortably or healthily. Also, I'm guessing if your bf excessively cleaned the tank, that probably didn't help either. Bacteria were not given ample time to build up at all.

But all in all, size is the most important thing when dealing with stocking a tank and the only thing that comes close is water parameters in importance. Fish can adapt to varying water conditions, but size is something that is inevitable. A fish that might be 2 inches young should never be kept in a ten gallon tank if it'll reach ten inches in adulthood.

Overheating doesn't sound like the problem at hand, but yes, that can kill fish.


----------



## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

I had this long post typed out and netscape crashed. I'll try to retype what I remember.

I agree that the tank was drastically overstocked. It was at it's breaking point before the recent fish were added.

Also, if it was the heater, the water would have been noticably hot or cold, I think your bf would have noticed. (if he hasn't, have him dip a finger in.)

When a fish goes berserk like you describe, it's literally trying to get out of the tank, which means something is chronically wrong.
If I had to guess... Ammonia was the CoD, caused by overstocking.

Also, wanted to add something...
I've had fishtanks for my entire life.
Gouramis, plecos, cichlids, etc. and they lived long a long time.

That said, after about 10 minutes of reading some past forums, I realised how miserable their existance was. (they seemed happy to me..)

I'm not saying your bf doesn't have a lot of experiance, but it's kinda like comparing a well-regarded and experienced surgeon from the 19th century meeting a medical student from the present day. The surgeon from old time would say "Well, my old techniques worked for me. My patients said I was the best ever."
(sorry for the horrible analagy- basically, even the experts on this forum, have to keep up. If your boyfriend got the most up-to-date book on fishkeeping and read it over 7 years ago, he's behind on the times.)


Also, on your city water- call your water department and ask for information on your water's composition (minerals, etc)
Maybe it has a lot of copper, in which case a cheap water conditioner will not do. (or if your house has copper pipes)
You need to find out how much lead, copper, nitrates, mineral (hardness) and PH your tap water has. Also, if your bf buys super-filtered (reverse osmosis, or R/O) water, that's bad for fish as well.

Every fishkeeper needs:
a water test kit (strips are not preferred, but will do if you can't afford anything better- about $10)
a stick-on thermometer (about $1-$2)

The test kit and thermometer could have told you which problem it was (or narrowed the options down enough to figure it out)

Generally the rules are no fish over 3 inches, and LESS than 10 inches of body length.

Make sure he cleans the filter, and adding some activated charcoal and Ammo-carb to the filter might save the fish that are in there now, but be sure to read the directions.


----------



## LisaC144 (Oct 22, 2009)

+1 on EVERYTHING Kelso said. He wasn't being snarky, he was being honest and to the point. That tank is WAAAAY overstocked which makes it lethal to fish. Angelfish, even if only one, should be kept in nothing smaller than a 29g (40g if you ask me). Plus the fish in his stock list require different water parameters. If your boyfriend is so concerned that his heater overheated, tell him to go out and buy a $2 thermometer.


----------



## Aphid (Feb 11, 2010)

Thank you, redchigh, I completely agree with what you are saying and understand. Thank you for educating me without insulting me. Being honest and blunt does not require an elitist attitude, as you have shown. 

Also, he does have a thermometer in the tank. I'm not sure why he thought his heater had overheated, because I am sure he did check the water. It was late when he told me, he was at his wit's end, so he probably just threw that out there as a last resort possibilty. As I stated, I, myself know nothing about keeping fish. 

Thanks for the help.


----------



## Romad (Jun 28, 2009)

Aphid,

I'm sorry to hear about the tank troubles. It does sound like it was very much overstocked. Your bf might have been given bad info. from wherever he purchased the fish. It's amazing what some places will tell you just to sell you something. And depending on the store, the employees are often clueless themselves.

I hope he gets to the bottom of this. I hate to say it but maybe this will is a good opportunity for him to understand what he can keep in a tank that small that will thrive and be healthy. Sadly, he paid the price of a good learning experience by losing fish he cared about/


----------



## JohnnyD44 (Dec 5, 2008)

Aphid,

I'm sorry to hear about the problems that your boyfriend is having with his tank. I agree with everyone on here that this was a serious case of overstocking. It could have been the fishstore he was buying his fish at (most chain stores...people don't know anything about fish) it even could have been a misinformed website he read online. We've all been there and it hurts to lose fish we care about. But its important now to try and understand _why_ this happened so it doesn't happen again. Below are some questions that answering would help everyone on here diagnose your tank issues...

1. What is the temperature of the water?
2. We need a water parameter reading of your tank water. You can take it to your fish store and they'll do it, or you can buy a API Liquid Test kit and do it yourself at home. Either way, the _exact_ numbers would be perfect. Don't let the fish store tell you "eh, your ammonia is a little high", ask them for numbers.
3. What is your boyfriend's weekly maintenance invovle? How much water does he change on weekly basis?


If there are any still surviving fish, I would do a massive water change (at least 60%). Make sure you pick up some water conditioner...it's crucial to your fish...needs to be used each and every time you add new water to your tank...otherwise you're basically adding toxic water to your fish. A recommended product would be Prime or Aqumel +, even API makes a product called stress coat. I've lived inside the city limits of Philly and I've been successful keeping fish even with their horrible water.

Try and find the answer to those, and we'll all go from there. 

Johnny

PS - Welcome to the forum!!!


----------



## Aphid (Feb 11, 2010)

Oh dear, I just was told it is a *20 gallon tank*, not a 10 gallon tank!! Please tell me if it was STILL overstocked. I don't know what I was thinking saying it was 10 gallons!

Romad, thank you! I was shocked about LisaC's comment that the fish were not compatible, because my boyfriend always asks about that when he buys a new fish!!! I agree; I think at times mistakes are good to make; learning experiences and all that. I cannot tell you how appreciative I am of your kindness and compassion and that you didn't make the assumption that he is just an idiot. 

Johnny, thank you, as well! You have given me great things to go on. I do not know the answers to those questions, but I am going with my boyfriend to the pet store now to look into the API kit and water conditioner (though I am fairly sure he does have that). I wrote the questions down and will ask him. I would love to be able to prevent this happening to others. 

I did a search on google to see if I could find out what was happening with his fish, but as there were so many variables, (some which I did not know), I came up short. So any prevention of this type of mistake, again, greatly appreciated!!

And thanks for the welcome to the forum. I was feeling very unwelcome before. ;-)


----------



## JohnnyD44 (Dec 5, 2008)

Aphid said:


> He had two fish with red faces (I don't know their name), two neon glow fish, a kissing fish he has had longer than we have been together (We've been together seven years), an algae eater, a glass fish and a catfish. He had these a while, four or five months. Then, just recently we got two mollies, then three calico-looking fish, and an angel fish. One calico fish died right off; this was probably normal; it was from wal-mart and that happens. All of these fish were purchased far enough apart that it didn't seem that any of them were carrying a disease or parasite.


A majority of those fish will (would) have eventually outgrown a 20G tank. Any fish that will outgrow the tank you have, by keeping it in a small tank you're stunting its growth. This isn't healthy for any species or fish, let alone any other kind of animal. It would be like keeping a great dane in a cage the size of the a dishwasher.....it will cause growing problems which isn't good for any animal. By keeping fish in a tank which they will need to outgrow, it's hampering their ability for them to grow to their fullest capability and be able to live long healthy lives.

Two other quick notes: you neon fish...they(along with almost all other tetras) need to be kept in groups of atleast 6.....your catfish (which may be a form of corrydora) need to kept in groups of six also

Hopefully with the help of answering those questions and any other input your boyfriend has will help everyone figure this out.


----------



## Pep (Dec 29, 2009)

Hello Aphid and welcome

Here is a website where you can enter your tank size by dimensions and then enter the fish type and quantity into. It will tell you if the aquarium is overstocked and if so how badly. I used this to start building my first aquarium recently. Keep in mind this is not absolutely perfect but it does seem to be a fairly close guide if nothing else.

From the research I have done in the past few months it seems a LOT of people quite badly overstock tanks. Yes the fish can survive but they cannot be leading very comfortable lives. An analogy might be a herd of cows in a nice big pasture compared to the same size herd in a corral. They just cannot move around well and the conditions in the corral...well.. I think the point was made without anything more graphic

There is no doubt that the vast majority of these people honestly believe they have done their homework and really love their fish with no malicious intent. Best of luck to you and your boyfriend in solving the problem.

AqAdvisor - Intelligent Freshwater Tropical Fish Aquarium Stocking Calculator and Aquarium Tank/Filter Advisor

Pep


----------



## rsn48 (Nov 26, 2009)

The three biggest mistakes everyone makes, including myself, are the importance of tank cycling to handle the fish that will populate the aquarium, overstocking the aquarium, and not doing sufficient water changes. All of the problems can be averted by prior research. I would suggest to you that probably 60 % of fish sold over the past Xmas to newbies with tanks are dead now, that's a lot of fish.

Learning is one of the best facets of this hobby, and initially you don't have the experience to know what you need to know. A tank that is well planted, properly lighted, with adequate changes of water, and understocked is going to be an easier to tank to maintain and have fish that live into old age. Take the time to learn the hobby, years in a hobby doesn't mean anything if experience isn't backed up with learning.

Just goggle your questions and you'll find loads of material written about it, like how to stock a tank, how to cycle a tank, what fish can go with other fish, water parameters to suit the fish you have and plan to have. Lots of resources out there, and people here can walk you through re-establishing your tank if you'd like.


----------



## Kelso (Oct 28, 2009)

Look, I apologize if I seemed rude, but when I'm telling somebody straight facts, I don't sugar coat. It's not in my nature and it doesn't do any good to be frivolous. I don't think of myself as an elitist or anything akin to that.

I was giving you facts and merely stating that it seemed research wasn't done. If your boyfriend was told those things, more than likely it was the sales person at the pet store trying to con more money out of somebody at the expense of a fish's life. I never assumed he was an idiot, I was saying more research should have been done, because in my opinion, the life of any animal shouldn't be at cost because of a mistake.

But the important things are you need to affirm your water parameters and find out each species of fish you have. If you or your BF are unsure of anything, I'm sure posting some pictures will get you some answers fairly quickly. When you figure out what fish you have, go over the water they prefer and their full adult size. When you have that all figured out, determine, will the fish I have remaining be alright together, even full grown? Find out if temperaments get worse or appetites get bigger. Make sure you don't have any schooling species that don't have at least 5 of their kind. Generally, 5 is a good number to go by for any species of schooling fish. After that, determine what fish you have to give up/donate/return. For a 20 gallon, I wouldn't keep any fish that grew over five inches, and no schooling fish that reach more than 3 inches, but make sure the fish you are keeping won't eat the others, need special care that the others won't benefit from/will be harmed from, or if they have high bioloads.

Once again, I apologize if I seemed rude, but I assure you, I wasn't. Like I said, I don't sugar coat. Does it make a difference if a professor tells a student s/he is wrong by saying something like, "Oh no! I'm so sorry, but you didn't do it quite right. I'm sure if we try again, we can do better next time. All you need just a little more time!"
Or if he says, "That's not the correct answer; this is." That's my position. I was explaining something to you and I wasn't doing anything more.


----------



## stephanieleah (Oct 31, 2009)

btw to add to rsn's "biggest mistakes i've made" list: trusting that the lfs will give you accurate info. I've learned (the hard way) to go and look, take notes, come home and do my research, then decide if that's what is right for my tank. even the most knowledgeable lfs employee will tell me things that simply aren't true. they can't possibly know everything about every fish (or plants or equipment, etc.)


----------



## Aphid (Feb 11, 2010)

Thanks so much everyone for the extensive info. It seems that though some of the fault does lie with my boyfriend, a lot of these things are things he asked the sales people handling the fish and lots of questions were not answered. From now on, before making a purchase, we will research the type of fish first ourselves instead of trusting anyone else. We even asked if neon tetras should be in a school and we were told they should do fine with the two we were getting.

Pep, thanks for that website!!! VERY useful!!

Rsn48; I will surely google anything I need to know from here on out without assuming the Wal-mart guy knows anything about fish. 

Kelso, I think being blunt and honest are great, but being courteous is great, too. Sugar-coating and kindness are not mutually inexclusive. I really appreciate the apology and also apologize if I seemed over-sensitive. It is hard to tell how to take things as there is no tone of voice over the internet. I was not just directing my elitist comment at you. I also comend you for taking the lives of animals so seriously. We do too; this is why I posted to this forum to prevent this EVER happening again under our watch.


----------



## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

Welcome to TFK!

I agree with the general consensus that the likely cause of the problems was ammonia or nitrite poisoning. For one, adding a whole lot of fish to an already overstocked tank is already likely to cause an ammonia spike, but the dead fish in the tank are also a huge source of ammonia that were probably far beyond your biological filter's* ability to process. However, without some of the other data requested (tank temperature and water parameters such as pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels) we can't really be sure what the problem was.

I also agree that doing a large water change as soon as possible is an excellent idea. Just be sure to use a good water conditioner and try to match the temperature of the water going into the tank with the water that's already there to avoid putting more stress on the fish.

Can you give us the water parameters as well as the species of the four remaining fish? You can post pictures if you're unsure of the exact species. If you don't have a liquid test kit for the parameters, you can take a water sample to a LFS and have them test it for you (most stores will do this for free). Make sure they give you exact numbers for pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate rather than just saying "it's fine" or something along those lines, as they're prone to do. Also, make sure they're using a liquid kit or probes and not test strips.


----------



## Aphid (Feb 11, 2010)

I have found out the temperature was around 70 degrees farenheit; we don't know the exact numbers because he replaced his heater. I looked for a test at the pet store and didn't find one. They may have been out, but I will try to have someone test it soon. Between work and school and life in general, I don't know when we'll be able to. Also, my boyfriend changes 1/4 of the water weekly. 

We have seen so many websites saying so many different things it's hard to tell what we're doing right and what we're doing wrong. :|

Right now, I think the only fish left are the algea eater, the neon tetra, and the kissing fish. If that isn't specific enough, I can take pictures tomorrow or the day after. (I don't know how many viariations of those fish there are!!)

I really appreciate all the help to really make sure what the problem is. I really want to make sure we don't make the same mistake twice. 

We'll be changing a lot of the water very soon!!


----------



## JohnnyD44 (Dec 5, 2008)

Aphid,

Before we can really help you and get down to specifics, we really need to know your water parameters. If you're going to fish stores to look for a test kit, have them check your water for you. It's crucial to know what your levels are at. Until you can get a test kit...have a LFS(local fish store) test both your tank water and tap water. Like I said in my first post...make sure they give you exact readings. Don't let them tell you "eh, your ammonia is a little high", you need to get exact levels.

As far as your fish left....
Your neon fish, does it look like this?
http://72.167.47.62/imgs/fish/neon-tetra-profile.jpg

And your 'kissing fish', does it look like this?
http://z.about.com/d/freshaquarium/1/0/D/V/gourami06G.jpg

First thing, if you haven't already is do a massive water change. I"m talking atleast 60%. If you want to save the few fish you have left, you need to do this as soon as possible, tonight if you can!! 

Until you get your water parameters, do the water change! I'd also up your tank temperature to about 77-78 degrees, both of those fish enjoy temperatures between 70-82 degrees, and your algae eater, although not sure on the type, will be ok with that temperature too.


----------



## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

Whoops. I forgot to add in the actual footnote I threw in that asterisk for.

* - By biological filter, I don't mean a physical filter but rather the bacteria colonies that process ammonia into nitrite and then into nitrate.


----------



## molliefan09 (Sep 21, 2009)

I have read through the thread and +1 to everything said....and WELCOME aphid, we are glad to have you here!!! Im sorry to hear about the loss of your boyfriends fish but hopefully we can help you get on the right track and he will have a happy, thriving, beautiful tank!!!


----------



## Aphid (Feb 11, 2010)

All of the fish are dead. 

The closest fish store is over an hour away and between jobs and school it is so hard to get up there. He's just going to start completely over. This time we will be sure to make sure we have several sources tell us the fish we are getting are compatible and that they require the same things, whether they need to be in schools, and so on; that we are not overstocking and that no fish will exceed four inches in its lifetime. 

I'm still going to get a vial of the water and if there is an opportunity, I will go have it tested in case it is some other problem. I'm pretty confident, however that it is as everyone says and that there was just too much bacteria in the tank from overstocking.

Thanks so much to everyone for your extensive help and following through with me. It is so greatly appreciated and great to know there are people out there who don't just think of themselves and can be selfless enough to really care about some stranger's tank and little stranger fish!!

I will definately try to use this forum as a resource as well to help us in our fresh start!


----------



## JohnnyD44 (Dec 5, 2008)

Sorry to hear about the rest of your losses. Don't give up though...it's tough and sucks to have to start over, but hopefully on here you can gain the resources and knowledge to achieve aquaria that is exciting to you and your bf rather than looking at your aquarium as a chore or just work.....

One side note: if you do decide to start fresh, I would do a fishless cycle on your tank....it may tank longer, but it's easy, and most of all you don't have to have fish stressed through numerous water changes. 

No matter which way you choose to start your new tank....the number one rule with new tanks is to be patient....patience is everything when setting up a new tank....i've seen so many people jump the gun and crash a cycle because they got sick of waiting...

cheers to a fresh beginning!!


----------



## PaperclipGirl (Feb 7, 2010)

Aphid, 

I know Pep recommended it, but I have to agree - 

Use the AqAdvisor - I love it. 

I bought a used tank and the people I got it from had several incompatible species in there because they "looked nice" and didn't buy enough of ones that like to be in schools. I haven't started adding too much to the tank as I want to make sure the water cycle is actually done before I do, but I have re-homed a few fish that just didn't get a long and one that was too big for the tank. 

The tank I bought was stocked at 154% of its capacity and that was only 12 fish in a 55g tank! And when we were tearing it down they were talking about what fish I could consider adding to the tank - but it was already overstocked!

The AqAdvisor helped me determine which fish were a good fit for the size of my tank, which ones were compatible, which ones needed to be in groups or alone, what basic tempertature and pH they need to be at, whether I needed to add filtration or not. I really find it useful. It even said I needed to make sure I had a lid as one species jumps out. 

I go on there frequently and just put together combinations for the the heck of it. 

Best of luck to you guys starting over!


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Aphid said:


> All of the fish are dead.
> 
> The closest fish store is over an hour away and between jobs and school it is so hard to get up there. He's just going to start completely over. This time we will be sure to make sure we have several sources tell us the fish we are getting are compatible and that they require the same things, whether they need to be in schools, and so on; that we are not overstocking and that no fish will exceed four inches in its lifetime.
> 
> ...


I'm just going to comment on a couple of things in an effort to ensure you understand and can avoid future problems like what you've gone through.

The problem was not the bacteria, it was the number of fish and the uncompatibility of those fish. Too many fish in a small tank means high ammonia and this is deadly to fish. The bacteria and biology simply cannot support more fish.

The other thing that jumped out at me is your comment about fish reaching 4 inches for this tank. A 4-inch fish is way too big for a ten gallon tank. Nothing in such a tank should be more than 2 inches to be safe, and only a few if they are 2 inches at maturity.

Good luck, and if questions arise, ask us. We are all here to offer guidance as we can.

Byron.


----------



## JohnnyD44 (Dec 5, 2008)

Byron said:


> I'm just going to comment on a couple of things in an effort to ensure you understand and can avoid future problems like what you've gone through.
> 
> The problem was not the bacteria, it was the number of fish and the uncompatibility of those fish. Too many fish in a small tank means high ammonia and this is deadly to fish. The bacteria and biology simply cannot support more fish.
> 
> ...



+1


----------



## nomel (Jul 20, 2009)

Doesn't look like anyone recommended this, but google "freshwater nitrification cycle". This will explain what your filter is actually doing and why the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate readings and from your test kit are interesting. The existence or imbalance of these chemicals in your water is, as everyone has suggested, what caused the loss of your fish.
If you find a nice explanation, it will mention that this is the reason you can never wash your filter material under tap water or use tap water that hasn't been dechlorinated for replacement...the chlorine kills the bacteria that you'll read about!

Can you describe the filter that he has and how often he changes the water? 

This part you can ignore if you choose since many will disagree:
Fish compatibility had nothing to do with your loss...there weren't pieces missing from a crazy killer and one species wasn't wiped out...they all died, meaning something was wrong with the water. I'd take the fish incompatibility with a half grain of salt.

And, preparing for more disagreement, if he was changes a largish portion of the water every week (>25%), the tank, being 20G and not a 10G, can handle that many fish BUT not with the filter you have. I believe that your tank, with the amount of water changes that were done, cannot process as much waste as your fish were creating. I'm guessing the filter is a hang-on-the-back filter with two thin filter inserts, probably half inch total thickness.

I say with the amount of water changes done because you can keep a 10lb bass in a properly shaped tank if you change the water every day...he'll just have a terrible existence. 

Am I right about the filter??


----------



## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

nomel said:


> Doesn't look like anyone recommended this, but google "freshwater nitrification cycle". This will explain what your filter is actually doing and why the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate readings and from your test kit are interesting. The existence or imbalance of these chemicals in your water is, as everyone has suggested, what caused the loss of your fish.
> If you find a nice explanation, it will mention that this is the reason you can never wash your filter material under tap water or use tap water that hasn't been dechlorinated for replacement...the chlorine kills the bacteria that you'll read about!
> 
> Can you describe the filter that he has and how often he changes the water?
> ...


]
Compatibility of fishes does not simply mean fish that won't eat other fish although that would seem to be important if one wants to keep the fish for any given period of time. 
Compatibility also means that fish share similar pH,KH.GH,and temperature requirements. If this is not so,then fishes can become stressed which in turn can lead to weakened immune system and at that point, fish are more suceptible to Illness. Fish in crowded conditions where they are under constant threat of predation or are harrassed day in an day out ,seldom live long or as long as they might in less stressful,crowded conditions.One need only observe the Male livebearers in tanks where there are few females to realize this. Applys to other fish as well.

Frequent water changes alone or even with heavy filtration, do not insure that fishes kept in crowded tanks ,or large fish in small tanks,will remain healthy. One must also consider frequency of feedings,amount of food offered ,and Ph of a particular sample of water. Ammonia levels in crowded tanks can fluctuate during the course of a day depending on how much waste is produced by the fish, and how much food is going uneaten and at pH levels above 7.0 ,,ammonia is much more toxic than at lower levels.
Many who change water in cowded grow ourt tanks for example ,change large amounts of water daily for reasons stated. Point being,, weekly water change might not be sufficient.
Would agree that knowledge of nitrification process or (cycling ) would be in my view,mandatory reading for anyone setting up a new aquarium. Most of the published books on fishes(tropical ) and their care ,will contain this information. I would were it me,,, begin there. 
Opinions on the internet are as numerous as blades of grass on a golf course and can often only confuse the new hobbyist.


----------



## nomel (Jul 20, 2009)

I agree with 1077 completely. His opinion is should be considered more of a tree trunk than a blade of grass though.

But, I'll still disagree that incompatibiltity had anything to do with this case of mass loss or that it will be any realistic problem for you.

1077, do you still think that tank is overstocked, being a 20G and not a 10G like was first posted, assuming proper maintenance?


----------



## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

nomel said:


> I agree with 1077 completely. His opinion is should be considered more of a tree trunk than a blade of grass though.
> 
> But, I'll still disagree that incompatibiltity had anything to do with this case of mass loss or that it will be any realistic problem for you.
> 
> 1077, do you still think that tank is overstocked, being a 20G and not a 10G like was first posted, assuming proper maintenance?


 I am perhaps the wrong person to ask about stocking tanks. I prefer larger tanks with fewer fish. 
Will say that if algae eater mentioned was /is common pleco then maintaining water quality will be uphill battle.


----------



## Kelso (Oct 28, 2009)

1077 said:


> I prefer larger tanks with fewer fish.


Yeah! That's the best way to do it! "Under-stocking" is the way to go! Makes life so much easier!


----------



## Fleuryy (Feb 6, 2010)

IMHO, even with a 20 gallon tank that was probably a little overstocked. stress kills  and when the lights go out at night when your asleep they battle for survival when stressed.

that many fish dieing within 48 is a little odd to me tho. I have had fish go from very healthy to disappeared in one night but not that many haha. 

Poor fish, and good luck to all you in the future.


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

I am probably one of the most liberal members of this forum when it comes to stocking levels. I rarely consider a tank overstocked, as compared to my peers. Heck, I even stock my marine tanks to a degree that makes most experienced fishkeepers nervous.

That being said, I think this tank was overstocked, as a 20 gallon. And I think the overstocking is what caused the compatibility problems. We often have difficult explaining what we mean by "water quality." Keep in mind that ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and pH are not the only water conditions. They are the water conditions that we discuss because they are most often the cause of fish deaths. However, as you become experienced you begin to learn that other factors play into this as well. In marine aquariums we call this "redox potential". It actually can be tested, although only by scientists with proper equipment. There is no equivalent in the freshwater world, but you have to understand that other factors are in play and the experience of the members of this forum is a great asset in determining proper stocking levels.

One such factor is hormones. Like people, fish give off hormones. These hormones are a method of communication with other fish, and play a huge part in the behavior of fish. Do you ever wonder how a Neon Tetra knows to hide from a larger fish? In an overstocked tank, these hormones are a cause of stress and weaken the immunity of the fish. Fish behavior changes, and how they react in a given environment changes.

I firmly believe that placing fish together, especially fish which grow large and quickly, such as Angelfish, in a small 20 gallon tank is a likely culprit to the problems your boyfriend has had.

By the way, I have followed Kelso's threads for a long time. Kelso is an upstanding member of this community and would never treat anyone with disrespect. It is very difficult to judge the "tone" of a comment on the internet. For this reason I would encourage everyone to take the time to learn who they are talking to by browsing the threads, before making conclusions on someones intent. This is an amazing community we have here and most disagreements are just a matter of communication.


----------



## JohnnyD44 (Dec 5, 2008)

great post pasfur!!


----------

