# Using Ammo-Lock and Bacteria Supplements



## dancelady (Apr 24, 2014)

I have a message in here about my nitrates being high. I have several tanks, and each one has high nitrates. Now I have filters, keep cleaning them, and occasionally adding Ammo-Lock and Bacteria Supplements such as TopFin or SmartStart, etc. My question is: what is in these two solutions, and what is produced by them when they are at work?

And does adding them mean that nitrates will go higher despite the good work that they do? I once had a newly set-up cloudy tank and added the bacterial supplements (heavy at first) and eventually (weeks later) the water did clear, and the situation resolved itself. Lately someone told me NOT to add them because they would make the nitrates stay high -- to get them down should reduce feeding, vacuum the bottom, and change the water. So could someone please tell me what happens with the two, and how to drop nitrates properly?

And if you were to put the Bio-filters (Aqua-Clear type) in the tank itself, would that bother the freshwater fish? I wanted to do this recently when I was cleaning the filter and wanted to re-boost these along with starting a new set in the filter.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

High nitrate is a sign that your cycle is working properly removing ammonia. The best way to reduce nitrate is through regular (weekly) partial water changes.

Ammolock is a water conditioner that locks ammonia in a harmless molecule which is oxidized by cycling bacteria and absorbed by plants. It is best used for removing ammonia which results from the breakup of the chloramine molecule during water changes.

SmartStart is a bottled bacteria product that you would have no use for in cycled tank.

Don't know which TopFin product you're referring to. 

Any filter media or substrate in the filter flow will support cycling bacteria. Best place is in the filter.


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## dancelady (Apr 24, 2014)

*Thank you for your response!*

I added the bacterial supplements (TopFin or SmartStart) when my tank was cloudy -- probably because I have too many fish in there. Right now I have them separated in ~9-10 tanks, but still there are a lot and more new babies all the time. I am trying to prepare a new 30G & 20G tank.

What I wanted to know with adding the bio-form *inside* a tank is because I have the tank HOB filter chock-full already, and wanted to boost the media to get more filters ready to go. That is, you can put the biomedia inside an internal filter if you have one, so apparently (!), it isn't bad for the fish. But I only have the HOB filters, and found some old ones that need to be re-set with new media, as the old media are long gone. I was attempting to prepare a new one with media -- these are too big to be used now by themselves (much bigger than the one presently on the tank) and putting them on alone would probably cloud the tank up again. I have some sponges and new carbon as well.

Thank you for the info, do you know exactly what the bacterial supplements actually do, what type of material is in the biomedia? Was wondering if putting it inside the tank (without as much flow, being below the HOB filter) would do anything to prime this media? And if one leaves the media out so it dries up, does that nullify the media so you have to start all over again?


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

You have the concept basically correct: any foam, floss, media, substrate will accumulate cycling bacteria. The question is, how much. This is a judgment call based on experience. 

A fundamental concept is this: Cycling bacteria colonies will grow until they are the right size to oxidize all the ammonia produced by the livestock (including waste). But no further. How much of this "biofilter" is in the filter, how much in the substrate, how much in any extra biomedia you may put into the tank, where it's located, how long it's been there -- all these considerations are endlessly debatable.

Because there is only enough bacteria to handle the current bioload, any extra media removed from the tank (to seed another tank) depletes the biofilter in the donor tank. It may cause a "minicycle" until the bacteria regrow to match the bioload.

I'm sorry if this sounds vague, but it _is_ kind of indeterminate and subject to opinion.

A good bacteria supplement -- Tetra Safestart, Dr Tim'sOne-and-Only, MicrobeLift Niteout II, ATM Colony and a few others -- contains live cycling bacteria (the autotrophs, Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira) that actually perform the nitrogen cycle. They work fine if used fresh and have not been subjected to temperature extremes.

As far as I can determine, Smartstart does not contain those bacteria. Like a number of similar products (Cycle, Zyme) they reduce sludge, clean the filter, help with the biofilm where the cycling bacteria live. They do _not_ contain the actual autotrophic cycling bacteria. 

Bacteria grow on _all_ media. Small cell foam has more area for colonies but is easier to clog. Cycling bacteria die when dried out.

I'm still not sure what Topfin product you're referring to.


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## dancelady (Apr 24, 2014)

*More responses to your info*

Now I am learning exactly what the bacteria supplements do (the autotrophs, Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira) so this is more than I knew before. That is what I wanted to find out. I think then that removing the bio-forms inside the tank could make it go through a minicycle, if what you say is correct that removing a cycling source could leave the tank with less to maintain it. I thought something like this was happening also when I let the filter dry out after being removed -- tank then got cloudy somewhat.

I looked at my *TLC StartSmart Complex* and don't see any chemical or other info posted on the label. It says it is "multi-purpose" and it instantly cycles aquariums. Also that it "maintains clarity and digests sludge." But really nothing about the bacteria like you mention. The *TopFin Bacterial Supplement *says it has beneficial bacteria and "breaks down organic waste." I am going to look at their site and see if they say anything more. But now I will look for your Tetra Safestart, Dr Tim's One-and-Only, MicrobeLift Niteout II, ATM Colony to get the bacteria that I feel are needed for new tanks. They need to be cycled quickly because I have new babies coming any time now.

You said that drying out does kill the bacteria, and I have done this a few times when other things got in the way of using them right away. Which is why a tank got cloudy -- I wasn't sure, now I am. Out of 10 tanks, I sometimes have one that is cloudy somewhat, and this is probably why. Also I now use 2 filters per tank, so that if one filter gets sludgy, I can rely on the 2nd one to keep it going. It happens that the spongy thing on the inlet tube bottom (to save fry) clogs up pretty fast, and I have to clean them often. All of this is very helpful to know.

I am aware that I have too many fish in a tank, but I am using the filters and water changes, and I do everything to keep them clean and safe. As the tests prove, I don't have any ammonia or nitrites, as long as I can keep it that way. With all this work, I am now getting some beautiful Mollies, some gorgeous males, and some unusual colors as a mix. Besides the regular ones, I have now some that need new descriptions since they are not the prescribed colors. Such fun!


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

This is the 3rd site I'm posting this on in 3 weeks, should just load it onto my site for future reference;

A mature colony of nitrifying bacteria is capable of doubling in 18-20 hours. As bacteria go this is rather slow, for ease of math, water changes & my life schedule I like to ballpark it at doubling every 24 hours. This being the case, you can generally take 1/3 of the mature media out of a tank, and add it to a new tank that contains 1/3 the stocking of the donor tank, and expect no issues. For safety's sake it's a good idea to fast the donor tank for a day before pulling media, and feed both tanks lightly for the next week, less food means less waste produced. This helps to eliminate the risk of any spikes. By all means test the water the first few times doing this, until you feel pretty confident on how things work out.

Many times I'll get a lot of fish in, mostly angels, 200 to maybe 500 at a time. I flip back & forth between breeding angels & buying overstock from other breeders, 30 tanks & 1k gallons to play with in the fishroom allows me to do this.

I'll often take a tank with 10 angels, and add 100+, with nothing more than a large water change every other day for a week. Knowing the nitrifying bacteria will double every 24 hours, the tank with 10 angels can handle 20 by the 2nd day, 40 by the 3rd day, 80 by the 4th day, by the 5th day it's a done deal. On day 2 it's a 75% water change with a triple dose of Prime, same with day 4, day 6 gets a 50% with a triple dose of Prime & everyone is happy. Prime will tie up ammonia for 24-48 hours, into a form that doesn't harm the fish, but is used the same as ammonia by the nitrifying bacteria. It also does the same to nitrite.

Remember that a mature colony of nitrifying bacteria doesn't mean your tank that just cycled a couple weeks back. Most of the large sponge filters I run have been in service for years, good sponge isn't cheap but it's worth it. Nitrifying bacteria also have been shown to go dormant in a previously heavily stocked tank that is currently stocked more lightly, and rebound to heavy stocking considerably quicker.

So to start with plain cloning, 1/3 of the media, 1/3 of the stocking, feed lightly, test & be ready to do water changes as needed. Beyond that feel free to push the limits, provided you do have a good backup system planned out.


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## dancelady (Apr 24, 2014)

*Fantastic! A terrific treatise on bacteria and performing*

Finally I have so much good information that I don't know how to thank you. I instinctually knew what you were saying, but didn't have any real evidence to prove it. So you offer a very good set of data and ways to use it and test it. I am so thrilled to have it!

I also wonder about your sponges -- when they get clogged up for one reason or another, how do you clean them up to put them back in the tank. You said you had several that have been in there for a long time. Mine seem to get dirty after a while with sludge and muck, so how do I clean to use without killing all the bacteria? For an AquaClear filter, I wash the charcoal and sponge in hot water, sometimes using a toothbrush to clean the junk off. When the sponge doesn't yield any more dirty water, I put in back in the container; I also gently wash the bio-material in hot water, too, just clear out the dirt on the mesh. For other brands I do the same, only usually there is just one sandwich of it all together. Is this OK? Am I wiping out all the good bacteria or just making it more useable again? I need to keep the filters all working well, but can't leave them in there once they start dirtying the tank water when they have much sludge in them. How do you clean your filters, what is the right way to do this? I have found that a filter will work fine for a while, then began to throw dirty water back in the tank because of all the muck in the filter. Or the inlet becomes clogged with debris, like moss.

One more time answering my questions -- maybe I can get it down pat now. Thank you again for all the help -- I can become a good aquarist with all your succinct tips!


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

I pull them out using an old margarine container, sponge filter, water & all. Being open cell sponge, if you just pull them out all the water, along with debris runs out & into the tank. I'll toss them into a bucket with tank temperature tap water, pretty much by feel with the temp, with a shot of Prime. Squeeze them half to death to get all the gunk out, the bacteria are pretty resilient, stick to foam really well. It's the same procedure I've been using with filter media for years, regardless of the filter type. If you have house plants use that horribly filthy bucket of water on them, free ferts.

For hob & canister filters any non-media parts get hosed off in the utility sink, straight tap water. Same goes for box filters, I run them with a higher air flow full of floss for mechanical filtration, sponges run lower flow for bio filtration. The whole fishroom is air driven filtration, save for a couple Eheim canisters running on a 55, need to tap a couple more air valves to convert that tank over. Everything from 5 gallon hatching tanks to 150 gallon tubs is either sponge or a sponge box filter combo.


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

Let me add plants to this discussion. With live plants the plants actually will consume ammonia before nitrates. So the ammonia->nitrIte->nitrAte cycle really doesn't apply. 
What may happen is nitrates can spike because the plants have switched from nitrates to ammonia for nitrogen. So instead of an ammonia spike you get a much safer nitrate spike.

Ammonia locks like Prime do lock up ammoonia but most test kits still measure ammonia. The danger is you treat, lock up the ammmonia, test ammonia, so add more chemicals. And those chemicals also lock up oxygen so the fish can suffocate.

One solution is using a test kit the measures both the dangerous and safe ammonia. The seachem ammonia multitest does that and the seachem ammonia dots (in tank) only react to the dangerous ammonia.

my .02


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## dancelady (Apr 24, 2014)

*What plants do you recommend?*

I bought some Hornwort originally, but have found that this one is not a good one to keep your tank clean and clear. It is sort of a moss-like thing that creates smaller 2-petal offshoots that float on top everywhere and mess up your filter, big-time. It is good for babies to hide in, but beyond being food for them, it is not good for adults in a nice pretty tank.

So what type of plants do I need? I have 8 tanks with nothing but plastic plants, and want to get something that grows like crazy, looks good, and doesn't have any problems with how it is bedded down -- or floats, if that is what it does. I have some philodendron which I can add, and have done so in the past, but it mainly just floats and doesn't grow. I need plants that grow *fast*, and don't get spindly so I can add them to other tanks, and don't cost an arm and a leg. Remember I have _salt_ in my tanks (though not quite brackish), and only Mollies and Corydoras. (I am not thinking to re-do the tanks, just some plants to ADD to them with a gravel substrate and river rocks)

What should I look for when I go to see plants -- have seen Water Sprite, moss balls, and some others. What would be good for me?


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

dancelady said:


> I bought some Hornwort originally, but have found that this one is not a good one to keep your tank clean and clear. It is sort of a moss-like thing that creates smaller 2-petal offshoots that float on top everywhere and mess up your filter, big-time. It is good for babies to hide in, but beyond being food for them, it is not good for adults in a nice pretty tank.
> 
> So what type of plants do I need? I have 8 tanks with nothing but plastic plants, and want to get something that grows like crazy, looks good, and doesn't have any problems with how it is bedded down -- or floats, if that is what it does. I have some philodendron which I can add, and have done so in the past, but it mainly just floats and doesn't grow. I need plants that grow *fast*, and don't get spindly so I can add them to other tanks, and don't cost an arm and a leg. Remember I have _salt_ in my tanks (though not quite brackish), and only Mollies and Corydoras. (I am not thinking to re-do the tanks, just some plants to ADD to them with a gravel substrate and river rocks)
> 
> What should I look for when I go to see plants -- have seen Water Sprite, moss balls, and some others. What would be good for me?


I use anacharis, water sprite, vals, small potted plants, and 1 or 2 amazon swords.

You might try your luck at the methods in the link in my signature. Just what works for me.

But then I don't use filters or any mechanical circulation either.

The philodendron are non aquatic plants from what I understand and do not do well submerged. But some use house plants above the water with the roots in the water and that does work well from them.

Salt can be a problem so you might try some and see how they work. I have found that with plants I do not need salt or any other "meds". With no plants I did add salt for mollies and in face use mollies to cycle marine tanks.

Best tank ever.

Still just my .02


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