# getting a "professional" to set up a new saltwater



## shie (Sep 29, 2006)

Hi, I have been learning a lot of stuff online regarding saltwater tanks, and I am so glad I found this forum and thanks in advance for taking my questions. I found out how hard it is to start a saltwater tank especially somebody like me with no experience at all regarding fish tanks. So, I went to a pet store and found somebody that wil set up my 50 gallon tank for live rocks, fish and annemones(not sure if that's how you say it) and monthly maintenance for a reasonable price. I will eventually learn how to do the monthly maintenance myself. He said he will let the tank cycle for a week then add the damsels and then the live rocks and bigger fish in 3 weeks after doing some test, then do a 30% water change and test once a month afterwards.
My question for you is that an acceptable practice, getting somebody to setup the tank and do a few monthly maintenance? Is the once a month check enough? Doesn't it need to be done more frequent? What is your view on this?


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

Hi and welcome aboard Shie,

The time cycling takes may actually vary, not one week or anything specific. I'd do daily maintenance rather than monthly. Monthly is too far. You'd imagine the accummulation of muck and anything else which will increase ammonia level which is very toxic especially when marine tanks require very high pH.
Live rocks will do the cycling for you.:wink2: Damsels are good choices for starters.:thumbsup: They will easily survive cycling process.

Depending on your stocking level, your tank maintenance may vary but frequent maintenance is better than occassional after all.

I will leave the rest to the others as what I posted are basically ideas but some were based on what I had experienced.

Good luck with keeping marine.:thumbsup:


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## Michael (Jul 17, 2006)

Hi Shie,

I hadn't kept fish for many years, and never kept saltwater fish, when I went to a chain petstore and bought a "saltwater setup" several months ago. It turns out I was sold some of the wrong equipment, which I suspsect was because the clerk wanted me to make the expensive investment but didn't think I would spring for what I truly needed. He was probably right at the time, but knowing what I know now I would have bought everything I needed to begin with, instead of things I only have to replace now.

Anyhow, I went from not knowing anything about fish to keeping a 55 gallon saltwater tank. By myself. You will read here I have had my share of losses but I attribute them mostly to a lack of patience and the wrong equipment.

I don't know how much this professional is charging you, but I think that you can really do it by yourself. Others may argue that I am oversimplifying it, but I think it is really only a matter of buying the proper equipment, setting it up (which may seem daunting but when you read the instructions it really isn't rocket science), filling it with water, cured live rock, and damsels, and waiting. You will want to test the water every few days to see how it is doing, but they sell test kits that make it easy... you can test for everything in under 10 minutes and it is essentially a matter of filling a small tube, squirting in a few drops meant for this or that test, shaking, waiting, and color matching.

I look at our tank and I think it feels much more rewarding knowing that I've been maintaining it myself... not that you can't feel similarly happy or have the same pride in a tank you pay a professional to maintain, but I think you might find that doing it yourself is easier than you expected, more rewarding, and certainly less expensive!

At the same time, the fish I started with may be here today if knew exactly what I was doing from the getgo, but I do believe that with the free help available here could have made the difference.

Good luck whichever you choose and keep us posted!


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## usmc121581 (Jul 31, 2006)

Well michael stated everything I would say on that subject. When I first started out I didn't know what I was doing but I figured out very quickly on my own how to maintain a beatiful tank. I lost a few fish but I moved on. I have been into saltwater for a couple of years now and I will still loose a fish every now and then. We are here to guide you through it step by step.


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## shie (Sep 29, 2006)

Blue, daily maintenance? :shock: This is really very intimidating, now I am not sure if I would do the saltwater. Maybe I should try a freshwater first. I have to do one or the other since I have the 50 gallon tank already. 
Is it really easier to set up a freshwater tank? Is the maintenance not as frequent as saltwater?


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

shie said:


> Blue, daily maintenance? :shock: This is really very intimidating, now I am not sure if I would do the saltwater. Maybe I should try a freshwater first. I have to do one or the other since I have the 50 gallon tank already.
> Is it really easier to set up a freshwater tank? Is the maintenance not as frequent as saltwater?


Perhaps, you should indeed try freshwater.:thumbsup:
Why are you intimidated?:question: But that's our policy when it comes to fishkeeping.:tongue: :bluelaugh: 

Depending on your stocking level, maintenance may vary. Well, to be honest, I do daily water changes on my community tank as it contains several sensitive species like rams.:dunno:
Can't get away from the policy because bad water quality often kills your fish.:wink2:

For marine, it is often suggested that daily maintenance is best but weekly will do(unless Usmc objects :mrgreen: ). Well, you want the more challenging type I guess.:mrgreen: Every time you do water changes, you have to add salt to replace the salt you lost during water changes. That spells cash for a hydrometer.:tongue: And other equipments like protein skimmers, sump(not really necessary but it's up to you), etc. :blueshake: 

In my case, I'd rather stay in freshwater than venturing out to marine again.:brow: It's up to you which one you prefer.:thumbsup: Or I'd rather tempt you to the lighter side(freshwater).:devil: :wink2:

IMO, freshwater is the lesser of the two evils.:mrgreen: :crazy:


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## crazie.eddie (Sep 1, 2006)

The cost of of the initial startup of a saltwater tank is allot more for a freshwater tank.

Maintenance in saltwater setups is similar to freshwater...
1. Clean filters
2. Water change
3. Clean substrate
4. Add nutrients in water (for those who use water from RO units)

Maintenance is usually commonly done weekly, but it can be performed daily. Monthly maybe too long for saltwater tanks.

Having a saltwater setup/maintenance consultant can help you as long as they are a reputable company. If you still feel unconfortable about maintenance, you can still do freshwater, so you can understand what is required.


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## shie (Sep 29, 2006)

Eddie, the person that's going to help me setup and maintain a saltwater tank is an employee of a LFS, now I don't know if this is a good idea since he's the one that mentioned the once a month maintenance.


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

shie said:


> Eddie, the person that's going to help me setup and maintain a saltwater tank is an employee of a LFS, now I don't know if this is a good idea since he's the one that mentioned the once a month maintenance.


IMO, monthly is far too long. Marine fish will not tolerate any sudden changes in water chemistry. You would imagine poor water quality changing suddenly into a clean one due to the removal of muck accummulating rapidly in the marine tank.
I'd do the maintenance myself rather than a "professional".


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## shie (Sep 29, 2006)

Blue, what exactly do you do daily for a saltwater and a freshwater tank. I don't have a problem investing on the necessary equipments for a saltwater, however I'm hesistant about all the physical labor that goes into it, don't get me wrong, I will do what I have to do but I just don't know how extensive the daily routine is.


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

shie said:


> Blue, what exactly do you do daily for a saltwater and a freshwater tank.


Physical labor.:thumbsup: :wink2:
You do water changes and gravel vacuuming. It's very important to eliminate all detritus.
Additionally for marine, you add salt to replace the salt lost during water changes as previously stated.

I used to have marine myself.:wink2: But that was 8 years ago.:crazy:


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## joeshmoe (Aug 2, 2006)

Its realy not that hard i first thought "o man every day ill just stick to once a week" but this past week ive done it every day and i got used to it to me its something fun to do


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## shie (Sep 29, 2006)

Is it an hour or more everyday?


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## crazie.eddie (Sep 1, 2006)

You may have to ask what is covered in the monthly maintenance. They may just clean glass and detritus on the rocks and stuff, and leave the water changes up to you.

Otherwise, if his monthly maintenance includes the water changes, filter maintenace, etc. see if he has a contract that stipulates that in the event the fish die to poor maintenance, that he will cover the replacement.


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## shie (Sep 29, 2006)

He already said there is no guarantee on the fish and he will do the water change and the chemicals.


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

shie said:



> He already said there is no guarantee on the fish and he will do the water change and the chemicals.


Shie, in terms of maintenance, we do not agree on the use of chemicals. They won't completely work except the dechlorinator which eliminates chlorine and other heavy metals making water safe for the fish.

If I were you, I'd just do everything myself rather than asking the help of an "expert". It's up to you whether you'd like his help or not but I still find it a complete waste especially when all those works can be done by a fishkeeper himself.:dunno:

Th trick is simply to keep everything simple. I can see some people buying an expensive filter system(because they think the more expensive it is, the better the quality/work it will do) and then ending up with dead fish in a few days.:roll:


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## usmc121581 (Jul 31, 2006)

I find the maintence with both way about the same. Except saltwater you have to be more carefully what you do because the fish or more sensitive. The maintence on my reef system includes:


> For marine, it is often suggested that daily maintenance is best but weekly will do(unless Usmc objects ).


weekly
Testing
adding water that has evaporated

Monthly
Cleaning the sump tank
Cleaning the protien skimmer
Cleaning my Magnum filter

I never do a water change on mine as the tank is well established and the water evaporates out of it so quickly that I have to add at least 5 gallons of it a week.

Shie, if you want to really do a FOSW setup I would give it a try. I was I same way you are now. I thought it was going to be diffacult to do it. I have found out that the maintence is the same in both like crazie.eddie stated. The cost to start it a saltwater is very expensive as the lighting is the biggest expense. I think if you feel like you can handle a saltwater. give it a try.The family at FishForum well be glad to help you out as much as we can.


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## crazie.eddie (Sep 1, 2006)

usmc121581 said:


> I find the maintence with both way about the same. Except saltwater you have to be more carefully what you do because the fish or more sensitive. The maintence on my reef system includes:
> 
> 
> > For marine, it is often suggested that daily maintenance is best but weekly will do(unless Usmc objects ).
> ...


Are you using RO water or tap water for your top-offs?


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## tmfreak (Sep 30, 2006)

Hello shie!

I think that you would definitely learn more about marine ecosystems and how to maintain one by yourself. Most people on this forum have learned so by trial and error and have posted most of thier errors ( no offense guys ) so that you wont make the same thing. Taking care of a saltwater aquarium has never been easier with people to help you.

You can red tons of articles and things on starting out a saltwater aquarium. and you dont need a professional to do it because it doesnt take one to. 

I am only 15 years old and I guess you can say I have started early. I have read tons of things on saltwater reefs and aquariums for about a month and this has helped me to understand them better. The big words and fancy names might seem scary at first but it will be something you can get accustomed to.. 

Dont be intimidated by how much "labor" there is (which isnt very much) but how much fun it is. I dont mind spending 10-30 minutes a day checking up on my aqurium and seeing if I get any more hitchhikers on my rocks. It is awesome to look at your tank and see the many verts and fish flowing in the wave of your powerhead, happy and energetic. 

Doing it yourself will also give you a very very big sense of accomplishment. It will take time and knowledge and you should have fun with it! This hobby shouldnt be frustrating or stressful but in fact enjoyable.
dont worry, everyone is here to help!


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## usmc121581 (Jul 31, 2006)

Actually tmfreak I have been doing this for many years and I kinda take offense to you stating


> Most people on this forum have learned so by trial and error and have posted most of thier errors


 I have never learned something about marine ecosystems by trial and error.


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## usmc121581 (Jul 31, 2006)

> Are you using RO water or tap water for your top-offs?


I actually use store bought water, which I have tested and is free of everything. No nitrate, phosphate, etc.


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## trreherd (Aug 7, 2006)

Joesmoe-Its realy not that hard i first thought "o man every day ill just stick to once a week" but this past week ive done it every day and i got used to it to me its something fun to do
You dont do water changes daily do you :blink:


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## usmc121581 (Jul 31, 2006)

I think that is why alot of people don't try to do saltwater. They think its hard. Then the ones that try it find out it really isn't as hard as they thought


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## shie (Sep 29, 2006)

Hi everybody, I have finally decided on the type of tank I want. I've decided to go with the saltwater, it's just so beautiful and amazing to look at. And I want to thank each and everyone for their input, I appreciate it. Okay, so here is the list my guy at the LFS gave me to start my tank with the price. Please tell me if I'm missing anything of if I need to change any, thanks.
This is for a 50 gallon all glass tank (not predrilled) with a cabinet stand for fish and anemones. The tank came with 3 bulbs which says "aquarium light YZ-25W.
Wet dry 75 $159
Rio 2100 $60
Rio 600 (2) $25 each
Super skimmer $150
Live sand (3) $23
Instant ocean salt $14
Heater 100w $32
Hydrometer $15
Digital thermometer $10
Aqua plus $8
Cycle $9


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## usmc121581 (Jul 31, 2006)

You don't need the cycle, Buy live rock and one damesel to cycle the tank for you. And the lights won't be the ones for saltwater. If the light fixture fits only one flourescent bulb go with the 50/50 bulb. If it has 2 bulbs go with one actinic and one 10,000k daylight flourescent. But everything looks good. This is just a money saving tip. You don't have to by everything at once. Just the important stuff that you need to start a saltwater tank.


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## caferacermike (Oct 3, 2006)

Don't buy any damsels. It's the old dither fish story. Once you put that damned thing in there it will terrorize any fish you ever wish to keep. and once in they are very difficult to get out of the rockwork without tearing the entire tank apart. I highly recommend that unles it is the damsel that you want to keep (barring anything the store guy said) you just don't bother with cycling the tank with live fish. You are off to a good start with live sand and live rock. Honestly if the rock was pre cured your parameters should come into place in about 2 weeks in their own with no outside help. Don't forget to add the cleanup crew, about 50 small hermits and 100 small snails or 20 turbo snails. Your list looked decent, you will make changes, so I feel the guy that sold you your stuff is a decent fellow. As to monthly maintenance? That is an industry standard. I think it will be more than adequate until you begin to fully stock the tank. This guy is also approachable, not living behind the curtian in OZ, so in any event that you feel something is awry a trip to his shop will set your fears to ease. I do believe in daily maintenance myself, but to me daily means that I look at the tnak and do a visual check. Doesn't mean daily water changes. 

Sounds like you are off to a good start. I'd put some faith into your guy as he will know more about what is happening to your tank than we will. 

USMC you openly state a falsehood that I do not understand. You claim to never do water changes since your "mature" tank is so settled in. You state that because you add 5g of makeup water each week that should do it. Nothing could be further from the truth and a new hobbyist could believe what you are saying without further explanation of having a giant skimmer or an awesome refugium. I must ask how do you remove excess nutrients from yoru tank? How do you add the proper elements that only a good water change can provide?

Water changes are the best way to remove the build up of harmful wastes. You say that you only add make up water. This causes a buildup of elements over time instead of reomving them as a proper water change would do. Also water changes are the simplest method of replensishment of essential elements that can be used up by coral and fish growth. I'll bet you if you began doing weekly or monthly water changes your tank will perk right back up again. Sounds like comparing an ex athlete to a current one, I did plenty of running in highschool I don't need to run anymore. In fact if you began running today your body would benefit from the extra activity. I must admit that after setting up my tank I feared the water change. it was nothing in my freshwater tank to do a water change but my salt setup intimidated me. A few months ago I bought into a huge order of SPS corals that set me back a couple of thousand dollars. Not wanting to watch them die I finally gave in and began doing water changes. My tank has never looked better. I do 15g a week on a 75g (110g total water volume). Honestly my polyp extension has never been better than before this change. Upped my Mh lighting, no change. Added a Kalk reactor, no change. Water changes? Oh yeah instant growth.


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## usmc121581 (Jul 31, 2006)

> USMC you openly state a falsehood that I do not understand. You claim to never do water changes since your "mature" tank is so settled in. You state that because you add 5g of makeup water each week that should do it. Nothing could be further from the truth and a new hobbyist could believe what you are saying without further explanation of having a giant skimmer or an awesome refugium. I must ask how do you remove excess nutrients from yoru tank? How do you add the proper elements that only a good water change can provide?


When I first started I would change 20% of the water every two weeks. While during that I started noticing that the tank as a whole wasn't right so what I started doing is since I top off with about that much water every 2 weeks I started monitoring that my test were actually lower then they were when I would do water changes. So I have adopted this method. day to weekly I add the appropriate chemicals and my take has never be healthier. The only time I had is when I have moved the system. I have moved this tank 10-12 times in the last year and have not lost a soul. About the damsels they are a good fish to start cycling with, yes they can terrorize other fish, but everyone I know that has cycled they tank with them didn't keep them past the cycle stage. 



> I'll bet you if you began doing weekly or monthly water changes your tank will perk right back up again.


Actually there isn't anything wrong with my tank now. Everything is perky and good.



> In fact if you began running today your body would benefit from the extra activity.


Don't take this the wrong way it all fun but I ran more in a month then you do in a year. Being in the Marine Corps and everything.


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## caferacermike (Oct 3, 2006)

OK well then lets back this up. We have a new memebr here starting a new tank. Would you come out right now and recomend her to not do water changes? Just a yes or no will suffice, no explanations needed.

I did not say it was a bad idea to use a damsel to cycle with, which if you are bringing in live rock and live sand is not necessary as I stated, I said that they are evil and difficult to remove. You stated the same after what oyou wrote so why write it at all? Why write that the people did not keep them after the cycling stage? Why not just agree that they are not necessary.

About comparing water changes to a person lacking exercise was not a direct hit at you in general, I was making a comparison. As in a positive change is a good change. 

So let me ask you this then, do you clean your house? Do you take out the trash everyother night to the dumpster for removal from the house? Do you occasionaly vacum? How about we do a test, say for 6 months. You are not allowed to clean the house at all. Period you must live there, eat there and never again do any cleaning nor allow anyone else to clean for you. The trash cannot leave either. In fact maybe we ought to break the toilet. The only thing you are allowed to do is spray Febreeze around (IE: adding top off water). Why is it not ok for you but ok for your fish?

I also took a look at your public profile of your tank, 265w total for a 120g reef? I run 1,000w over a 75 and feel I could go another 300w.


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## franklinr_casedo (Sep 14, 2006)

hey shie, am also new in salties, we share the same problems.until now i still have a lot of questions on how to have a succesful tank.
though its hard to set up one, i still like salties.

frank


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## shie (Sep 29, 2006)

Hi guys, sad to say I'm still in the planning stage for my tank. I've been reading a lot of stuff in this forum, still I have a few questions to throw out there. Again, I appreciate all your replies. Thanks.
What is a refugium?
If the Bio ball is not good then what kind should I get?
Do the hermits and snails for cleaning up die or get eaten and if they do, do I replace them?
If I do FOWLR and some anemones do I need the expensive light, lights for a reef?
Do i need a chiller?
Looking forward to hear from you guys and thanks again.


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## caferacermike (Oct 3, 2006)

Anemones, possibly chiller, You want the water under 80F. I cannot comment upon if it is necessary without the tank running. IE: You may keep the AC low enough not to need one. Lights? Oh yeah for anything other than a condy you will need powerful lighting as about 90% of their needs are met throug hphotosynthetic algaes living within their tissues.

FOWLR. You could try a few soft corals such as green star polyps, leathers, or mushrooms. Problem is many fish will pick at them. Also a problem I have with the idea of FOWLR is that they generally end up as pathetic reefs. Most good FOWLRS are that for a reason, aggresive fish. A well thought out FOWLR contains eels, lions, groupers, triggers, Angels (they eat coral).... and no corals of any kind. From my experience people that say that they are going to set up a FOWLR with "peaceful" fish simply cannot resist buying a few corals. If there is any chance you might want corals just build a nice reef instead. It will actually be cheaper to buy what you need than to keep replacing it as you "grow into it".

The cleanup crew should live on forever unless a particular wrasse enjoys eating them. As long as there is food to eat they will prosper and breed. they will break down heavy solids into smaller easier to break down wastes that the bacteria can process.

Bio balls..... They are considered a pain in reefs. They collect nastiness that is hard to clean. Being as they are difficult to remove and clean they are often neglected (kind of the same reason filters are no longer considered reef equipment. Skimmers are the way to go as they remove waste from the tank once and for all) and being neglected become nitrate factories. Most of the reefers I deal with have all switched to using live rock rubble in the wet dry area of the sump. Is it really better? Probably only in our minds. At least the rubble can allow micro organisms places to live that bio balls just cannot provide. I don't think a pod collection would breed as quickly in bio balls as they would in a rubble pile.

Refugium.... Provides an area to allow micro organisms to thrive. Allows a place for nursing injured fish or corals. Usually contains 3" of live sand or "mud". A handful or caulerpa or cheato macro algaes. Slow water movement pump in from the display tank. 24 hour lighting. A 10g tank can make a great fuge. Basically you are providing a place for algaes to grow wild. The theory being that algae allowed to grow in a confined space will use the available nutrients thereby making it impossible for lages to grow in the display tank. By leaving the lighting on 24 hours it prevents the CO2 buildup that would normally happen at night from non respiring algaes and corals. A build up of CO2 will cause the PH to crash at night. By removing clumps of the macro algaes as they grow you will actually remove the wastes from your tank that would pollute it. Some folks like to add Xenia as that stuff grows quickly and is easy to harvest. Also has some trade in value at the lfs. I keep a lot of shrimps, stars, snails and hermits in mine to help as well. I raised 2 frog fishes in mine until they were larfe enough for a tank of their own.


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## trreherd (Aug 7, 2006)

refugium-By having plants(macro-algy)In your refugium they will feed on the nutrients that algy in your main tank need to surfive to much algy in your main tank could sufucate your corals


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