# Is this Ick?



## Neutron (Apr 6, 2011)

One of my red wag platies has a white spot on her tail. It's not small like a grain of salt, and none of my other fish have it. I may wait another day before trying to treat this just to make sure I know what I'm dealing with. 

In the tank I also have 2 other platies and 2 panda cories. 

I was unawaure of the need to cycle my tank and the girl at Petsmart said adding 2 panda cories would be just fine. Now that I've been reading about the nitrogen cycle, I've been testing the water and doing water changes to try to cycle the tank and keep the fish alive.

So my further question is: 

Will the ick treatment kill all the good bacteria that have grown in the tank? 
I've heard panda cories don't do well with salt/high temperatures so doing that seems out of the question. Will they be able tolerate the ick medication from the store?


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## LasColinasCichlids (Jan 4, 2011)

Neutron said:


> One of my red wag platies has a white spot on her tail. It's not small like a grain of salt, and none of my other fish have it. I may wait another day before trying to treat this just to make sure I know what I'm dealing with.
> 
> In the tank I also have 2 other platies and 2 panda cories.
> 
> ...


Pandas are pretty delicate cories, but I think the higher temp and salt (maybe half dose) would be safer than the meds. 

No, ich treatment should not kill the good bacteria. I treated before without any issues. 

Glad you did your research, most pet store associates give incorrect advice. If this is ich (pic would help if possible), once its cleared up, you might want to get like 4 more cories (pandas or another variety, mixing has the same effect), as cories are social and shoal. 

Dont treat with meds. Try the raising of the temp slowly add a half dose of aquarium salt. Watch and see if they get stressed...if they do, do some water changes to remove some of the salt, and if that doesnt help them, then lower the temp slowly. There is a gentleman on here named Lupin that would be awesome at helping you out with this if he isnt too busy...you should be able to find him on my public profile from my friends list, or on the main page at the bottom his name might be listed somewhere in the statistics.

If its not small, I am inclined to say it might not be ich, and may be something else. A picture would help, although I couldnt tell you want it is unless it was ich, as thats all I have dealt with.


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## Neutron (Apr 6, 2011)

So it's super hard to take a picture of a fish lol but I got one. 
You can see the white on her tail.


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## Neutron (Apr 6, 2011)

I asked at the fish store what it could be and the guy said not to treat it for ick unless it is ick.
He said put some Melafix in the tank and see what happens. The only thing with that though is that it would kill all the beneficial bacteria in my tank! 
I have Bettafix which I use on my bettas at less than half strength. So I figured since the Bettafix is a watered down version of Melafix it would be safe to use with the panda cories. I would still use less than the full dose. 
I didn't put it in the tank yet as I'm waiting for some more experienced replies!


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## LasColinasCichlids (Jan 4, 2011)

Hmm... in the pic it looks clustered like ich, but I dont want to be the one to confirm it for chances I may be wrong. I hope someone more knowledgable in fish disease can come along and confirm. I know that Lupin and BettaBaby are well versed in these manners.

And yes, getting pics of fish is very hard, I have yet to be successful! lol 

I will pm the members I referred to with a link to this thread in hopes for their help.


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## LasColinasCichlids (Jan 4, 2011)

Neutron said:


> I asked at the fish store what it could be and the guy said not to treat it for ick unless it is ick.
> He said put some Melafix in the tank and see what happens. The only thing with that though is that it would kill all the beneficial bacteria in my tank!
> I have Bettafix which I use on my bettas at less than half strength. So I figured since the Bettafix is a watered down version of Melafix it would be safe to use with the panda cories. I would still use less than the full dose.
> I didn't put it in the tank yet as I'm waiting for some more experienced replies!


Yes, hold off until we get a confirmation from someone much more experienced in this department than I.


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## Neutron (Apr 6, 2011)

Thanks so much for your help!


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## LasColinasCichlids (Jan 4, 2011)

Neutron said:


> Thanks so much for your help!


 
You are more than welcomed. 

I did manage to pm both members, so hopefully within the next day or two, one or both can chime in...or at least another member with this kind of experience. 

You can also try to pm a mod and see if they able to assist in any way... here is a list of mods: 

Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources - Show Groups


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

After looking at the photo, I don't believe this to be ich. I need to ask more questions, so please bear with me.

Is this a cluster of small white dots or is it one larger white spot? 
Is it raised at all? How long has the fish had this? 
Has it changed in size, shape, color, or texture during that time? 
Can you please post your water params for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH? 
What foods are you offering the fish and how much, how often? 
What is the current temp? 
Did you use water conditioner to treat the water in the tank? 
How often are you doing water changes? How much water each time?
And lastly, do you have a quarantine tank available?

The guy at your lfs was correct about not treating for ich if its not truly ich. There are many potential issues in doing such a thing. DO NOT add ich meds to a tank with panda corys, you will most surely kill them. Most ich meds contain ingredients that are way too potent for the pandas. 
The other warning I'd like to issue is to not medicate until we know your water params are safe to do so. Even trace amounts of ammonia or nitrite can turn many meds toxic/cause adverse effects. Also, I disagree with the suggestion to use Melafix at this time, so hold off on that too please. 

I will check in here periodically during the course of today to follow this thread, wait for replies, etc. The best thing you can do for the fish at present is nothing. Until we know for sure what this is, (which I can't determine until I have more info) the best thing you can do is wait, keep the water as clean as possible, and work on getting a quarantine tank set up if you don't already have one. If you need to medicate in the main tank, the corys will need to be moved out for the duration. If you don't need to med the whole main tank, the sick fish should be moved to quarantine during med treatment. Either way, quarantine is something you should have on hand at all times (everyone who keeps a fish tank should have a quarantine). In the future, whenever you bring home a new fish it should spent at least 2 wks in quarantine before going into your main tank, to avoid the spread of illness/disease and to make treatments much easier and more optional. If you need instructions for a basic quarantine set up, let me know and I can map it out for you. For these types of fish, 10 - 20 gallons would be appropriate.

Hang in there and don't panic. Your fish is not going to die from this in the next day or 2.... which will be enough time to sort things out and get you set up with a proper/appropriate treatment plan.


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## Neutron (Apr 6, 2011)

Is this a cluster of small white dots or is it one larger white spot? It looks to be two smaller white dots and white surrounding the dots making it look like one larger one. 
Is it raised at all? How long has the fish had this? Best I can tell, it's not raised. I noticed it yesterday morning.
Has it changed in size, shape, color, or texture during that time? No. 
Can you please post your water params for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH? pH is 7.5, Ammonia 0.3 ppm, Nitrite 0.1ppm and nitrate 5 ppm. 
What foods are you offering the fish and how much, how often? Tropical fish flakes, once per day and 1 sinking pellet two times per day. 
What is the current temp? 75F
Did you use water conditioner to treat the water in the tank? Yes, I use prime. 
How often are you doing water changes? How much water each time? I change the water when ammonia gets to 0.5ppm. 
And lastly, do you have a quarantine tank available? No, and no money to buy one right now.


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## Neutron (Apr 6, 2011)

Please help!? 
She is still the only fish with it as it has not spread. She is acting normal and eating. 
Just two raised white dots on her tail surrounded by some white.


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## Neutron (Apr 6, 2011)

Okay I see a couple more smaller dots on the same platies tail. It looks like Ick so I am going to treat it.

I have API super ick cure and will use it at half strength since I have panda cories but will using this affect the tank cycle? And will it hurt my plants?


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## LasColinasCichlids (Jan 4, 2011)

Neutron said:


> Okay I see a couple more smaller dots on the same platies tail. It looks like Ick so I am going to treat it.
> 
> I have API super ick cure and will use it at half strength since I have panda cories but will using this affect the tank cycle? And will it hurt my plants?


_From my knowledge, yes, ich treatment can and will kill live plants. I dont know if it will kill off the beneficial bacteria or not. _

_If you are going that route, half dose is the best bet if you dont want to do the aquarium salt and raisied temp. _

_Good Luck and keep posting!_


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## Cassandra90 (Aug 16, 2010)

Sorry to hear that.
I am also in the process of treating ick. I am going to get a new heater today to get the tank temp higher, I have been doing the salt treatment and water changes.

But I might go out tonight and get some medicine too.


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## Neutron (Apr 6, 2011)

Ugh, well I didn't put the ick treatment in because my dad thinks I'm paranoid because he can't see any spots on the one fish. I think maybe I'm just seeing new fin/scale growth?? 
I don't want to put the treatment in until I'm 100% sure.. plus this will sound horrible but the total cost of my plants were over $50 and the two panda cories were $8.. 
So do I risk the lives of the panda cories and do high temps/salt or risk the lives of my plants with the ick treatment that may actually hurt the panda cories too??!!! 
I won't do anything until I am 100% sure what the white is.. so now is the time to get opinions on this!


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## GwenInNM (Feb 2, 2011)

One Rainbow fish I had had one ich spot and I used kosher salt. What is your hesitation with salt? The spot was immediately gone, but I continued to treat for the 10 days (actually I was a a couple days short of 10 days, but it was gone). Never spread to any other fish. I also did not have a QT tank. Yes, you need to be careful about dosage with certain fish (perhaps someone with knowledge can weigh in here about your types of fish) but salt seems really effective, it's very cheap and my plants were not harmed by salt. Plants show some wear, but do recover when it's removed. I'm sold on salt. Seems extremely effective for all sorts of things. Also, raising your temp is very important. 

Gwen


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## LasColinasCichlids (Jan 4, 2011)

The safest method for your plants and fish is to do the higher tank temp and to use aquarium salt. Half dose the salt if the pandas are of concern. 

There was a link somewhere here on TFK by Lupin on the proper dosage of salt to treat...I will try and locate it as it went into detail on partial dosage as well. If I find it, I will come back with the link.


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## LasColinasCichlids (Jan 4, 2011)

_Found it...I am copying & pasting it from the thread (posted by Lupin...hope he doesnt mind me re-sharing)...I will also include the link the whole thread if you want to take a look at it...its about goldfish, but the method applies still...._

*White Spot Disease (Ichthyophthirius multifiliis)
Synonyms:*
Ich, Ick

*Symptoms:*
Early signs of white spot begin when fish flick themselves against rocks. They may also swimming in an odd behaviour as if they were trying to use the water to wash away an irritation. Some of the more common causes are stress, bad water conditions, live food that have been infected by the pathogens or already infected fish without quarantining it.

*Description:*
Ich is a protozoal infection that afflicts fish and can rapidly kill them, most often by damaging gill tissue. It is highly infectious and potentially lethal and manifests as tiny white spots all over the fish. The spots are no larger than grains of salt. The wide host range of this parasite is its life cycle, and speed of multiplication especially in a tropical aquarium. When you see the white spot on your fish, it is already too late for those ich particles to be avoided.

The organisms, trophonts goes through a life cycle of a small white spot feeding on your fish which drops off to the floor of your tank and encases itself in a cyst called tomont. While encased in a cyst, it divides into up to 2000 new mobile organisms called theronts. The cyst then ruptures, thus releasing the theronts which seek out a host to feed into. They must locate a host within 24 hours otherwise they will die. Only the mobile stage is vulnerable to treatments.

Ich will appear if the fish is stressed. Note that it acts more as a 'contaminant' and is not part of the tank's ecosystem. Any new fish should be quarantined for 2-4 weeks. Failing that will increase the risk of introducing diseases which wil affect other occupants. New fish are always possible carriers of diseases. 

*Treatment:*
*Salt* 
Instructions
Increase the temperature to at least 84-86 degrees as much as the fish can tolerate. Add aquarium or table salt (dissolved in water) at a ratio of 1-3 teaspoons of salt per gallon of water in your tank equivalent to 0.1-0.3% depending on the tolerance level of your fish. 

For basic procedures, here are the steps.
1. Dose one teaspoon per gallon of salt or equivalent to 0.1%.
2. After 12 hours and assuming the fish has tolerated it very wellso far, repeat step 1.
3. After another 12 hours, repeat step 1 again.

While waiting, it does not hurt to add a powerhead or airstone to increase the oxygen level. Over the first couple days, your fish will appear worse and will eventually recover as the treatment progresses. In most cases, ich will disappear on the sixth day. However, there is still a probability that some cysts have not yet ruptured so it is advisable to keep the treatment up for full ten days.

If you are not able to raise the temperature at all especially if you are dealing with fish that lack tolerance for temperature above 80 degrees Fahrenheit, you may need to extend the treatment although a good general guideline is to continue 7-10 more days of treatment right after the ich had seemingly disappeared.. At 85 degrees Fahrenheit, the life cycle of ich is quicker. The colder the temperature, the slower the life cycle thus the treatment will extend even longer than required.

Level of Tolerance
For bottom dwellers such as plecos and loaches, you may need to maintain the saline solution at 0.1-0.2% so it will not be detrimental to them although there have been few instances where some catfishes can tolerate as much as 0.3%.

Do make sure your fish can tolerate the elevated saline solution. If in doubt, be prepared to do a water change to relieve the fish of the osmotic stress caused by the salt. Try not to lose focus on the actual saline solution you already administered or you might end up overdosing the salt more than it was necessary. 

Clown loaches and young oscars are notorious for getting ich after they are transferred to your tank. These and many others can tolerate salt. If you are unsure about your fish’s tolerance for salt, be sure to look for answers in a reference book or ask an expert.

A salt test kit available at your local fish store will help you get the exact dosage. Something in the range of .2%, is where you want to be.

Water Changes vs. Salt
Should a water change be necessary, make sure you redose the salt solution per the water volume replaced. 

For example, a 10g needs 30 teaspoons at 3 teaspoons per gallon of water measurement. If you wish to change at least 50% of the water, then another 15 teaspoons of salt should be redosed to keep the saline solution effective against the parasites.

Teaspoon vs. Tablespoon Measurement
For those not familiar with the teaspoon = tablespoon conversion, a leveled heap of tablespoon is equivalent to 3 teaspoons whereas a round heap of tablespoon is equivalent to 5 teaspoons.

In Australian standard, a tablespoon is equivalent to four teaspoons so please adjust the necessary dosage as much as possible.

Plants Goners Or Not?
Unfortunately many plants do not do well with this salt treatment and may appear to wither but will usually come back in time once the salt treatment is over. Removing them to a salt free environment after a thorough rinsing may save them, however they must be kept at a high temperature or for an extended period of time. When the cyst breaks up in the plant holding tank, the small parasites will be unable to find a host and will die within 24-72 hours depending on the environmental conditions. Ich is easily transferred to other fish tanks so do not share nets, heaters and wet hands between infected and non infected tanks. 

Mutual Relationship of Bacteria vs. Ich
Abstract explaining the presence of endosymbiotic bacteria within ich and bacteria with mutual relationship towards ich developing its infective capability can be found here.
http://thegab.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20210

*Other Treatments:*
Malachite Green, Formalin

Do NOT combine formalin and salt.

Check this list for contraindications of the above treatments.
 http://monsterfishkeepers.com/forums...d.php?t=295289

*Authors:*
Lupin
Anythingfish
ChileRelleno
[URL="http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/\'http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/profiles/guppy/\'"]Guppy[/URL]
SkepticalAquarist.com
Tokis-Phoenix

*Discussion Thread:*
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/fo...ad.php?t=20681 

Read more: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/ponds-waterfalls/goldfish-ick-need-help-66148/#ixzz1JMPEARFA
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/ponds-waterfalls/goldfish-ick-need-help-66148/


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## Neutron (Apr 6, 2011)

Okay! Thank you! Thank you! THANK YOU!!! I am going to start this tomorrow morning!! 
I am always so hesitant and paranoid! Thank god for this forum or I wouldn't even have the fish lol


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## LasColinasCichlids (Jan 4, 2011)

Neutron said:


> Okay! Thank you! Thank you! THANK YOU!!! I am going to start this tomorrow morning!!
> I am always so hesitant and paranoid! Thank god for this forum or I wouldn't even have the fish lol


_You're welcome, any time. _
_Its good to be hesitant and paranoid, it means you are a good fish keeper.:-D_
_Yeah, I think this forum has saved many of fishies! I can only hope it will be of the same value when I get my Leucistic Axolotl (not a fish, a salamander, but still aquatic, lol) next month._

_Keep us posted on your platy's health, we will be here to guide you if you need us. Good Luck._


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## Neutron (Apr 6, 2011)

I had a friend who has a lot of experience with fish keeping come over this morning and he said it didn't look like ich.

Now it looks to me like a white fuzzy patch, possibly a fungus. I filled a bucket with one gallon of tank water and dissolved 3tsp of salt it in and put the fish in that for 5 minutes. I did that about 20 minutes ago and she is back in her tank and looks fine from the salt dip. She still has the white patch on her tail fin so I'm gonna keep an eye on it the next few days. 

I didn't add any salt to the tank yet but I think I may add 5 tsp for the whole tank.. This one fish has had this white patch for like 5 days now and the others have no sign of it at all..


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## satu55555 (Apr 6, 2011)

Hi,

What was the result of this case? What were the diagnosis and treatments in the end and how did it end?

Thank you!


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## folyet (Feb 20, 2012)

I have been following this thread closely as I also think I have ick...as I just purchased a new fish and all of a sudden a couple of black neons have white specs on them...

A couple of questions...sorry if some are silly...first the post by the person who wrote the great piece about ick and treating it...thanks...very informative...but it says add aquarium salt or table salt. If I use table salt, do I use one with or without iodine? And what is the difference between aquarium salt and table salt?

Second, I am confused a little. It says to do the steps, like dose, then dose again after 12 hours, and then again after 12 hours. After that, is there anything else to do? It also says to continue the treatment for another 7 - 10 days. My question is if you do this treatment every 12 hours for 7 - 10 days, will that not make the water so salty it will kill everything I am confused

It says you may have to do a water change to alleviate stressed fish. But if no fish get stressed, do you still do water changes, or just keep adding salt

Please let me know as I will most likely start this


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## satu55555 (Apr 6, 2011)

Hi Folyet,

If you're sure it's white spot (tiny white spots on the fins and/or body and the spots are not fluffy or cauliflower-like), then I would recommend buying a white spot (ick) treatment from a pet store.

Salt is good if the fish can stand it. Not all fish can take salt treatments. For example it's bad for Danios (I have some) and can damage their liver. Unfortunately I don't know much about neons. Maybe you could google if neons can take salt. You'd need to also find out that all the other fish can take it. Corydoras for example are sensitive to it. Ick treatment is a safer bet.

If you're using salt, it should be salt needs to be either specific aquarium salt or salt with no iodine or any other additives so table salt is no good. Pure sea salt with no iodine or additives works as well as aquarium salt. Iodine and additives can be toxic to fish. The aquarium salt doesn't have additives or anything else, but I'm not sure if there's other differences. Both work. You need to add the salt little by little in the tank during 24-48 hours. Maybe this is what it meant with the adding salt every 12 hours. If you put all the salt in one go, you may cause a shock to the fish. Dosage I would recommend to do a search on as well. My book says to put 1-2 tablespoon of salt per gallon as a prophylactic (1-2g/litre), but I always do more research on the dose as there are so many opinions. You can treat the water with salt for a week or so.

You don't need add more salt unless you do water changes. Then you would need to replace the amount you took out. Salt does not disappear from the tank and getting it too strong can be dangerous. I would again recommend using a proper treatment.

My best recommendation would be a proper treatment from a per shop and follow the instructions.

Hope this helps a little.


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

I just came accross this thread which is fairly old, but recently ressurected.

I'm going to strongly speak against using salt, it is very stressful for freshwater fish to be put into water with any amount of salt. Some can handle brackish conditions, most can not. Stress is more often than not the trigger for disease and parasites like Ich. Creating more stress on the fish is not a good solution.

This may or may not be covered earlier in the thread (didn't read the previous two pages) but just in case:

The first, and most important step to treating Ich (which is short for the scientific name of the parasite *Ich*thyophthirius multifiliis) is to raise the temperature of your aquarium. Ich, as mentioned, is a parasite and it has a very specific lifecycle. We see it as a white spot on the fish, this is when it is feeding off the fish. Once finished, it will fall off and drop to the bottom and begin to multiply by the hundreds. It will then 'burst' and become free swiming, searching for a host (the fish). It will then repeat the cycle, growing in numbers each time.

Increasing the temperature speeds this cycle up considerably, which is important because the parasite can *only* be killed while free swiming. When on the fish, and when multiplying in the substrate it can not be harmed by anything. The ideal temperature is at least 86 degress, but with sensitive fish you may have to stop at 84. 86 is ideal because at 85.5 the temperature is high enough that it will inhibit the reproduction of the Ich parasite, at 91 degrees it will outright kill the Ich parasite but only a few fish can tolerate that high of a temperature for a week's time period.

Salt may work to kill it in the free swiming stage, but it is far, far less effective than using a medication. I've personally used Coppersafe with ideal results, in both cases the fish in the tanks were spot free within 48 hours.

Continue the high temperature for 1 full week, even if all spots are gone within 2-3 days. You want to make sure they are all killed, and they have all gone through the full lifecycle. At 84-86 degrees the cycle takes ~ 4-6 days. At lower temperatures, the cycle is longer.

Ich infects the entire tank, you must treat the entire tank. You can remove fish to a smaller aquarium to treat if you wish, but still raise the temperature on the main tank. This works because the parasite needs a host to survive. This can be useful if you have inverts that you do not wish to risk with a medication. Copper is bad for shrimp and snails, but I have succesfully used Coppersafe with ghost shrimp and malaysian trumpet snails with no ill effects. Coppersafe is also okay to use with live plants.


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

One thing I forgot to mention, during the week's treatment do not perform water changes unless absolutly necessary (for example in a tank still cycling ... but you shouldn't have fish in an uncycled aquarium in the first place )

Remember, the idea is to remove as much stress as possible. The Ich parasite is everywhere in the tank, you can't remove it through water changes, you can not remove it thorugh aggressive gravel cleaning. Such efforts are futile. It also introduces the problem or correctly dosing the new water with medications, a headache you do not want, or need, to deal with.


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## folyet (Feb 20, 2012)

Wow, I have read so many different ways of treating this ICK
On Wednesday, I raised the temp to 30 c 86 f
Yesterday I raised it a little more to about 32 c whih is just under 90 f I believe

all my fish seem ok so far...worried about my farlowellas as the big one did not come out looking for food in the evening as he usually does. Also my khuli loaches are always hidden since then...they are ususally visible some of the time

I am very confused...do I leave the temp at this high for a few days...to make things worse we are leaving for the weekend and I am eally worried as I do not want to come back to a tank full of death

interesting note with the high temps, the tetras seem more active, although they seem to be congregating where the flow in the tank is

I am not sure what to do

Also Geomancer mentioned not to do any water changes during this time. Any reason for that

I am worried that at high temperature, some issues could develop

Any insight appreciated


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

Warm water retains less oxygen, so fish hanging out at the surface is a sign of low oxygen levels. Since the tank temperature is elevated it is good idea to ensure you have surface agitation. An airstone, lowering the water so a HOB output waterfalls into the tank, or raising a canister's spray bar above the water line all works.

I'd lower it down to 86, near 90 wouldn't be giving you benefit unless you crossed the 91 line where it will kill the Ich.

The reason for no water changes is just to reduce stress, and to avoid messing with partial doses of medication. Most people only do water changes once a week anyways so shouldn't be an issue. Just do a water change before adding the meds and you should be good for a week. I forgot to mention though, remove the carbon from the filter as carbon will absorb the meds.

Twig Catfish are normally okay at 80, so 86 shouldn't be an issue for them for one week. Kuhli are normally good up to 84 so they'll not really notice the change.

Warm water can often induce spawing in several fish species  Signals a change in seasons for them.

Don't worry about being gone for a weekend, Ich just takes time to cure and if caught early isn't a very bad problem. Leave the tank light off (less light = less stress) Make sure there is surface turbulance for oxygen exchange and they'll be fine =)


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## folyet (Feb 20, 2012)

I have an air stone (long one) and I had already lowered the water level as I have as an extra filter that is an HOB to complement my cannisterand with the lower water level causes great agitation

the problem is I was due for my weekly water change this weekend, and was planning to do a small one just before we went away.today..say maybe changing 20 or 30 litres..so nt sure if I should do it now

thanks for the info and tips...anything else you can offer I am all ears


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