# Female Danio tilting when swimming



## satu55555 (Apr 6, 2011)

Hi,

I just noticed that one of my female danios is not swimming quite normally, but tilts to the right.

Here are the details:

1. Tank size: 140 L

2. Water parameters and brand of test kit used:
These are the params for the main and the hospital tank (same water).
Ammonium 0.25
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5
pH 7.4
We use the API Master Testkit.

3. Is your aquarium set up freshwater or brackish water?
Freshwater

4. How long the aquarium has been set up?
The aquarium has been set up for around 2 years.

5. What fish do you have? How many are in your tank? How big are they? How long have you had them? 5 Danios (one male about 6 months, about 3cm (= 1.2 inches) + tail; 3 females about 2 months, about 3cm (= 1.2") + tail; and 1 female about 4 months; 4 corydoras (two females almost 2 years and about 3.5 cm (= 1.4") + tail and 2 females about 5 months one about 3.5 cm (= 1.4") + tail) and the other one about 6 cm (= 2.4") and two Oto Cincluses (male and female about 14 months, male is about 2.5 cm (= 1") and female 3.5 cm (= 1.4")) - Those times are how long we've had them.

6. Were the fish placed under quarantine period (minus the first batch from the point wherein the tank is ready to accommodate the inhabitants)?
No. We put new fish straight in the main tank.

7. What temperature is the tank water currently?
24 degrees Celsius (= 73.4 F)

8. Are there live plants in the aquarium?
There are four live plants. Three have have been there 1.5 years and one was put there about 3 months ago.

9. What filter are you using? State brand, maintenance routine and power capacity.
We have an Eheim Aquaball 2210 filter. We clean the pads in tank water during water change once a week. 550 L per hour (=145 US Gallons per hour).

10. Any other equipment used (aside from heater and filter which are two very important components of the tank)?
No other equipment

11. Does your aquarium receive natural sunlight at any given part of the day? What is your lighting schedule (assuming you do not rely on sunlight for our viewing pleasure)?
The tank rarely gets natural sunlight, but if we get some sunlight, it's in the morning. Usually we keep the curtain so that the tank doesn't get sunlight. Automated lighting in the tank is on from 11.30am to 9.30pm.

12. When did you perform your last water change and how much water was changed? How often do you change your water? Do you vacuum the substrate?
Last 30% water change was 6 days ago. I just changed about 20% water change in both tanks as I moved the sick fish in a separate tank.
Our normal water change is about 30% once a week with a gravel hoover at the same time. The filter is cleaned in the tank water every time.

13. What foods do you provide your fish? What is the feeding schedule?
Our fish get meals at 9am and 9pm. They get flakes, granule foods and dried worm and other bugs mix and we have three different types of pellets for the bottom feeders. Twice a week breakfast is replaced with frozen blood worm. We also put a slice of zucchini or cucumber for the otos once a day. 

14. What unusual signs have you observed in your fish?
I just noticed that one of the fish is not swimming quite normally. In the morning about 12 hours ago I didn't notice anything yet and I'm quite sure she came for breakfast normally, but I started to notice something an hour or two ago. She is not as active as usual and as other danios in the tank. She takes some a little lazy swimming moves and then takes a break and that's when her body tilts slightly sideways to the right. She seems to be also more isolating herself from the others and did not eat when I fed them 45 minutes ago. So after feeding I put her in her own hospital tank so she won't get disturbed by the other fish. When she takes a break I noticed that the tail also drops a little bit, but I'm not sure if this is normal as she stops moving the tail.
I also noticed that there's some kind of a dark spot on the left side of the fish, but cannot make out what it is. I looked at it with a magnifying glass, but cannot see what it is.

15. Have you treated your fish ahead of diagnosis? If so, what treatments did you use? State your reasons for planning ahead of proper diagnosis.
I have not yet treated with anything.

Any advise would be much appreciated. Thank you!


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## satu55555 (Apr 6, 2011)

Here's a video of Lorraine (the ill fish)
Lorraine 16. Feb 2012 002.avi - YouTube

Thank you!


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Hi Satu,
I'm not going to suggest you medicate just yet... there are a few things that need to be addressed first.

1. Most important thing I can offer you for advice is not to add new fish directly to your main tank. That is an invitation for these kinds of problems. You have a hospital tank, please use it as quarantine anytime you purchase a new fish. Every new fish should spend at least 2 - 4 wks in quarantine, longer if there are any signs/symptoms of illness. To not quarantine new fish means you are allowing the new ones to bring illness/disease to your other fish which not only causes them problems and suffering, but can make things much more expensive for you and also can make it harder to treat the fish successfully. 

2. Tank temp needs to be maintained in a higher range for all of the fish you are keeping. 73 degrees is much too cold for most tropical fish. Slowly raise your water temp (in both tanks) to 76 - 78 degrees, but no more than 1 - 2 degrees over a 24 hr period, so this will take a couple of days. That is where temp should be maintained all the time. 76 is minimum for most cory cats and 78 should be considered maximum for healthy danios.

3. What is the "other bug mix" that you mention feeding the fish? There is no reason to be feeding "bug mixes" to these species of fish. Bug mixes can introduce disease/illness for fish that cannot tolerate a heavy protein diet, and depending on what is in the bug mixes, some of it may not be appropriate for your fish. I see no reason why your fish can't thrive on the combination of flakes, granules, and pellets only. I'm going to suggest you stop using the blood worms and bug mixes for food options.

4. Do you have a filter that can hold carbon? I notice there is a trace of ammonia showing up in your tank water. Carbon in the filter would be a quick and safe way to remove that and keep it under control. 

Make the changes I suggested for the temp change and feedings and carbon and let me know if the fish appears any better after 48 hrs please. If the condition worsens before then please let me know that right away. I would like to wait until ammonia and nitrite are both reading 0 before offering you a medication treatment plan. It's not safe to medicate with even trace amounts of ammonia or nitrite showing up.

I will track this thread and follow your updates closely and when I see it is safe to medicate I will suggest a treatment for you. Also you are going to need to watch the other fish in the main tank for any of the same symptoms. If this is protozoan related, which I suspect, that means all of your fish have been exposed and any of the others have a chance of being infected. The next 48 hrs should lend some insight there and let us know if we need to treat just the one fish or the entire main tank.

Can you also tell me if you have any meds left over from the last time this happened when you treated Lorna?


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## satu55555 (Apr 6, 2011)

Hi Dawn,

Thank you so much for your reply.

1. I will remember to quarantine my new fish from now on. Lorraine (the sick fish) is the new fish that came to our house/tank about 3 months ago. Although I don't think I could have seen anything wrong within 4 weeks' quarantine as the problem is coming out now 3 months later. In any case, I will quarantine them from now on.

2. I will immediately start warming up the tanks very slowly. I will double check the temperature with a second thermometer first as the tank thermometer usually shows about half a degree wrong too little.

3. The bug mix is a dried food in a tub called Sera FD mixpur and it contains freeze-dried bloodworms, tubifex, Artemia brine shrimp and daphnia. Can the dried bug mix introduce disease/illness for fish as well? On the package it says it's meant for all aquarium fish. So I will stop using frozen foods completely, but what about this above bug mix?

4. My filter cannot hold carbon, but this is no problem. We have carbon in separate bags that used to go in an old filter of mine. I have kept the carbon bags exactly for this reason. I will hang a carbon bag in both tanks immediately.

I will monitor what happens with these changes and will let you know right away if things go worse.

Last time I medicated Lorna with metronidazole tablets crushed and dissolved in frozen blood worm and a bit of water. I still have lots of these left to medicate again.

Thank you again. Your advice is made of gold and of course love for fish.
Satu


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## satu55555 (Apr 6, 2011)

I'll add the details about the temperature. I measured both tank temperatures with another thermometer and they both say 24.5 C i.e. 76 F so the temperature is fine. I don't totally trust the thermometer I have there. Time for a new one I think.

Regarding the ammonia, it's something between 0 and 0.25 so not as high as 0.25, but not as low as 0. I should have put that in the original posting. I have put the carbon in both tanks now to clear it out.

I'll keep you updated.

Thank you again.
Satu


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## satu55555 (Apr 6, 2011)

I have had the carbon in the tanks for a few hours now and I did a 30% water change in the hospital tank and the ammonia is very close to 0. I'll take another test in a few hours. I'm hoping I could medicate her tonight. But I won't without you saying to do so, Dawn.

Thank you.
Satu


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## satu55555 (Apr 6, 2011)

Hi again,

I was looking at the fish and her tail is starting to droop more. She's getting worse little by little. If it is at all possible, I would like to start medicating her.

I checked the ammonium level again and it is so close to yellow colour that it's pretty much 0.

I guess I'm just panicking a little for my little fish. I'll be patient now.

Satu


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## satu55555 (Apr 6, 2011)

Hi,

Before going to sleep I wanted to add here that the fish's condition is worsening. She now sits more on the bottoms of the tank, does less swimming and does not eat anything.

Thank you again.
Satu


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Will she eat anything at all? Even blood worms? If she isn't eating anything at all then you will need to medicate the water in the hospital tank. If you can find a food she will accept it is preferable to medicate the food and feed it to her just as you did the last time because it will get into her system much faster this way. Don't do both... if you feed it to her successfully then please do not put it into the water (and vice versa) as this could cause risk of overdose.

The "bug mix" you mention isn't something I would worry too much about causing illness such as this, but it's a good idea to keep those foods to a minimum, don't over do such a high protein diet. 

It sounds as if she may have been sick when you got her, but that also means she has exposed all of the other fish to the problem, so good idea to continue to watch them. Even in situations where you think quarantine wouldn't have helped, keeping the fish apart from the others can make it more noticeable when there are symptoms present, most specifically due to less stress from other fish chasing around with the new one or after the new one. Stress can mask many symptoms. 

If you are getting your new danios from the same place in the future I am going to suggest you start them out in the quarantine tank and feed them the medicated food right away as a preventive. It sounds as if your source for them is leaving them predisposed to protozoan, either in the store tank or from the store's supplier (wholesaler or breeder). I don't normally suggest such a thing but since this is not the first time the exact same thing has happened... I consider it warranted and it is safe. 

For the current treatment, 7 - 10 days, just like you did the last time with Lorna. Watch the fish's symptoms. If she doesn't improve in 7 days continue treatment for a full 10. If, at the end of 10 days she is not better please let me know. As always and with any fish, also watch for any bad reaction to the medication. Any kind of medication always poses some level of risk, however low. In case of a bad reaction return the carbon to the tank and begin small water changes to remove the meds from the water. In case of bad reaction when feeding the medicated food, stop using it immediately. I don't expect there to be a problem but felt the need to put the warning out there anyways, just in case.

For the future with preventive treatment, 7 days of medicated food should be enough to do the trick, but keep the fish in quarantine for at least 2 - 3 wks to help be sure.

Best of luck to you. If you need further help please ask.


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## satu55555 (Apr 6, 2011)

Hi Dawn,

Thank you so much for your reply.

I will try to give Lorraine first blood worm with metronidazole. If she does not eat it (as I have not been able to get her to eat anything, not even blood worm last night), how much of the medication would you suggest in the water? I have 500mg tablets and she's in 25 L (6.6 US gallons) water. I saw on the internet to put 250-500mg per 20 gallons.

You have given very good advice when it comes to quarantining new fish. I will indeed do this with the future new fish.

Thank you again!
Satu


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Satu,
What are the instructions on the medication packaging for dosage? Follow those and be careful not to overdose. If you don't have or can't find the instruction please send me the manufacturer name of the medication and I will look it up for you. Different companies use different fillers in their medications and different concentrations which are all protected by patent laws, thus making each manufacturers medication an individual, with its own specific dosing instructions. The only way I can give safe and proper dosing instructions is to know for sure which manufacturer made your specific medication. Any information on the packaging that you can give to me will help me track this down for you.


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## satu55555 (Apr 6, 2011)

Hi Dawn,

Thank you for your reply.

The packaging has instructions, but when it comes to dosage it just says a doctor prescribes a suitable dosage. The manufacturer is Actavis (Norway). The instructions that I have on it from the doctor are "fake" as it was prescribed for me because the doctor cannot prescribe it for fish directly. I'm lucky to know a person who would prescribe medication like this for the use on fish. She knows it.

Lorraine is clearly getting worse. She just sits on the bottom of the tank most of the time now.

I gave her a metronidazole bath this morning and then put some of the medication in the tank water. I put 250mg for the 25 L (6.6 US gallons). She did not eat any blood worm.

I so hope I could somehow help her more.

Satu


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## satu55555 (Apr 6, 2011)

Hi Dawn,

Here's what I found on the internet about the medications.

The filler ingredients in the tablets are Croscarmellose sodium, lactose monohydrate, microcrystalline cellulose, povidone, magnesium stearate, corn starch, hypromellose, macrogol 400, titanium dioxide.

On the internet it says that one 500mg tablet contains 50mg lactose monohydrate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croscarmellose_sodiumThe instructions are in Finnish on the internet for these Metronidazole Actavis tablets as follows. I thought the following problems are closest to protozoan.

*Amebiasis*


Adults:
Acute ameba dysenteriae: 750 mg three times a day for 10 days.
Liver abscess: 500 - 750 mg three times a day for 10 days.
Children> 10 years: 400-800 mg 3 times a day for 5-10 days.
Children 7-10 years: 200-400 mg 3 times a day for 5-10 days.
3-7 years are: 100-200 mg of 4 times a day for 5-10 days.
Children 1-3 years: 100-200 mg 3 times a day for 5-10 days.

Alternatively, expressed as milligrams per kilogram body weight: 35-50 mg / kg per day divided into three
doses 5-10 days, a daily dose of up to 2 400 mg of

*Giardiasis*

Adults: 500 mg twice a day for 6 days.
Children> 10 years: 2 000 mg once daily for 3 days, or 400 mg three times
per day for 5 days, or 500 mg twice daily for 7-10 days.
Children 7-10 years: 1 000 mg once daily for 3 days.
Children 3-7 years: 600-800 mg once daily for 3 days.
Children 1-3 years: 500 mg once daily for 3 days.

Alternatively, expressed in milligrams per kilogram body weight: 15-40 mg / kg / day in 2-3 divided doses.

I'm not quite sure how much to give based on these as these are based on the body mass and not the amount of water. If you understand these better, please let me know.

Satu


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## satu55555 (Apr 6, 2011)

Hi,

I wanted to put an update here. Lorraine was doing some kind of sudden moves a little while ago. Now she sits all the time on the bottom of the tank and a couple of times she got up and did some fast moves, calmed, did fast moves and sat down again. She wasn't swimming far, just within a small area 6" x 6" area, but it seemed like she was having some problems. I tried to take a video, but she didn't move anywhere for the camera.

I'm a bit at a loss here.

Thank you again.
Satu


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Satu,
Sorry I couldn't get here sooner, we're on different time zones which makes this a bit more difficult. 

Dosing for 6.6 gallons would be 150mg and only dose once every other day. If you need to do a water change during this time do it just before adding the next dose so the medication stays at full strength.

I know this is rough for you, mostly because fish medications are so difficult to get in your area. Not all human meds are the equivalent of fish medications, which makes this even more difficult. All we can do is our best with what we've got sometimes... I am hoping she pulls through, but if she doesn't, don't rush out and get a new fish right away. Wait a few wks, watch your other fish and be sure none of them are also sick. If that should happen please let me know and I'll walk you through the steps for a preventive treatment for a new fish before it goes into the main tank so you can hopefully avoid having to go through this again.

Keep me posted.


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## satu55555 (Apr 6, 2011)

Hi Dawn,

Thank you for your reply. No worries about the time difference. It's not within our control anyway.

I did a partial water change last night to reduce the amount of medication in the tank to about 150mg.

It's so hard to sit around and see Lorraine getting worse. Now she's just laying on her side and when she hardly attempts to swim, the swimming is spasmic. Isn't there anything more I can do for her? Stronger medicated baths maybe? I'm a little worried if we have the right diagnosis. I have to be pretty much sitting on my hands not to try to do something to help her.

I would not be getting a new fish too soon. The fish are fine with 4 danios in the tank. I will let you know if I get a new fish at some point or if someone else starts to have symptoms of something.

I wanted to ask at the same time here about euthanasia, not because of Lorraine as such, but generally. What is your opinion about clove oil? I have not used it before, but if I have to do this thing with a fish, I would like to. I was told by a person who has an aquarium shop of her own that clove oil feels like burning the gills to the fish. I'm not able to do any of these things myself, but to save my husband in these situations, I would like the method to be as smooth for the fish and him. Well, the fish have not suffered ever from it, but my husband has. It's hard for him.

Thank you again.
Satu


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Satu,
First of all, I feel for you... I know how difficult it can be to watch over a sick fish. Unfortunately sometimes there is only so much that can be done to help and it takes time for medications to be effective. Also unfortunate is that sometimes in spite of all we are able to do with medications and water changes, etc. there are times when we simply can't save the fish. 

I am confident in my diagnosis, as all of the symptoms you have listed and the video that you posted all indicate a protozoan problem. I have been doing this for a living for many yrs and some things are quite obvious to me when I see them. There is a lot that goes into the process of diagnosis, many things to be factored in alongside of the actual "symptoms" we see. Age of the fish, species of the fish, the environment in which it is kept, foods and general health, and the list goes on... This is why it is so important to seek help from someone with a vast amount of experience in such things before jumping too soon to dump various medications into a tank with a sick fish. 

Too many people now days attempt to diagnose and treat sick fish without such help and more often than not the end result is dead fish... either from misdiagnosis or from using a wrong (or unsafe) medication. These problems are further complicated in some places due to a lack of appropriate medications available in a given area. Many people are impatient, feeling that it is better to do something than nothing at all while seeking help. This tends to only lead to more problems. Patience and getting the appropriate help are always the best solution. 

Right now, in your case, all we can do is wait and hope we caught the problem fast enough for the medication to do its job. There are many factors in fish illness that are unseen and impossible to monitor, and those things contribute to how fast a fish gets well and even whether or not that is possible. The internet only further complicates that issue. Without the ability to do lab work the diagnosis process can take longer and be much more difficult. Without the ability to see what is happening inside the fish through tests that people would normally utilize for human illness to track organ function and etc. that again complicates things. We can only see so much, and thus we work with what we can.

In regards to euthanasia, clove oil is typically a safe thing to use if it's done right, but there are reasons why I prefer the method of freezing in a baggie of tank water instead for such a thing. Clove oil is what we use as an anesthetic for surgery in fish. It is about the only safe method for such things. Of the few other options that are out there, it is the safest with the least amount of risk of death. The trick is in knowing how to use it properly, which takes time, practice, and experience to learn. 

Clove oil puts the fish to sleep, and if enough of it is used the fish goes comatose until death sets in. The drawbacks of using clove oil are largely about the residue it leaves behind... its an oil, which means that it can't be removed with just water or a safe chemical for fish. Whatever container it is used in can no longer be used for keeping live, healthy fish without risk of their death. Its messy, it smells very strong and is hard to clean up. Since clove oil puts the fish to sleep before death it is seen as the humane way to euthanize, however, freezing the fish in a baggie of water does the same exact thing without the mess or worry that not enough was used, which can prolong the suffering of the fish. There is no dosing method that works for all fish for such a thing, so getting enough clove oil to actually cause death in a specific fish can be tricky. If not enough is used then the fish eventually wakes back up and the process begins again. I see that as forced/prolonged suffering. 

Going into a zip lock baggie of water and immediately into a freezer does a couple of things without causing the fish to suffer. The darkness of a freezer helps to keep the fish calm, something that doesn't happen with the clove oil method. The cold temperature slows down the fish's metabolism which means it requires less oxygen while it is alive, so the water in the bag is sufficient until death sets in, thus no suffering from suffocation as I have heard some people claim. As the metabolism shuts down the fish goes to sleep, the same as with clove oil, and it then never wakes up as the organs freeze and shut down completely. 

Personally, I find the freezer method to be the most practical and the most humane way to euthanize, and the least traumatic for both fish and person who has to do it. In a freezer you can set it in and walk away, go back in an hour and remove it and discard it to the garbage, thus no need to watch the fish suffer til the end to be sure its dead and no question about whether it is actually dead or not. Once the water in the bag is frozen then death is a fact, no guess work involved.

Keep me posted on your fish's condition and I will continue to do all I can to help. Best of luck to you!


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## satu55555 (Apr 6, 2011)

Here's a new video of Lorraine. It't not the best, but gives a little bit of an idea. You cannot really see much of the spasms on it. 




Thank you.
Satu


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## satu55555 (Apr 6, 2011)

Thank you Dawn. I just noticed you had replied as I was putting the new video on a message.

I know you're a good professional to give advice regarding fish. That's why I ask you and not someone with no experience and knowledge. You must be so popular amongst fish people. We are big fans! Me, my hubby and all our fish.

The reason I have not used the freezer method is because I read on the internet once that the fish can feel getting frozen in the freezer and it hurts to get cold let alone frozen. Living in Finland I have been very cold sometimes so I know what that feels like. Are you absolutely sure that it is not painful in any possible way to a fish? Because then I could consider that method in the future.

Anyway, I'll sit on my hands now and hope for the best for my fish. I'll do a water change tomorrow morning and add medication to keep the level up at the same time.

Thank you again!
Satu


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## satu55555 (Apr 6, 2011)

Hi,

Lorraine has got worse again. She's now pretty much only laying on her side in the tank and when she rarely tries to move, she ends up doing uncontrollable moves and ends up back on her side. The only way to know that she's still alive is because she breathes from time to time and her eyes move. It really breaks my heart to see her like that.

Should I make a decision whether to continue waiting or not? It doesn't look too good. What are the chances that she might make it since since the medication was started she's continued to get worse? Shouldn't she at least have stopped getting worse by now?

Thank you again.
Satu


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## satu55555 (Apr 6, 2011)

Here's a small update about Lorraine. She hasn't changed towards any better. She still rather seems to be getting worse. Is it possible that there is for example a bacterial infection that needs treating before she can get better?

Thank you.
Satu


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## satu55555 (Apr 6, 2011)

Another update. I have noticed that Lorraine is swelling a little on her right side. Just behind the mid-section on the side, not lower down. I'm wondering what is causing that. I've seen more swelling on other fish in the past, but it's still some swelling and of course taken the fish's small size, it ends up being quite a bit.

I'm still not wanting to make any quick decisions about her, because as much as she lays down on her side most of the time. I'm still hoping that she would get better. When she swims she's now leaning to the left. I swear it was the right before, but now it's the left. She swims very little, but changes her location from time to time. She lays pretty much only on her left side, but this could be because she tilts to the left when swimming and so it's easier to lay onto that side.

Thank you!


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## satu55555 (Apr 6, 2011)

Hi,

Lorraine is still the same. No change. She seems like she'd like to swim, but when she does, she tilts 45 degrees to the left and can't stay upright. Then she very quickly goes back on the bottom of the tank and lays on her left side. She doesn't try swimming very often.

I'm almost thinking that maybe there could be something else wrong (judging by the swelling on her right side and also the way she swims 45 degrees on her side) as well as the protozoa. She does not eat. Should I continue with the same treatment or should something else be done?

Thank you.


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## satu55555 (Apr 6, 2011)

Hi,

Unfortunately Lorraine was not getting better regardless of the medication. We did everything we could, but she must have had internal damage bad enough that she started having some sort of attacks or seizures so we had to put her down. She slept away peacefully.

Thank you for all your help!!!
Satu


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