# one dead, another on the verge



## vnvlain (Nov 5, 2009)

Hi everyone,

My background as a freshwater aquarist is rather limited. I kept one betta fish for over two years before he had to be euthanized due to cancer.

Afterwards I decided to try my hand in a community tank, so I didn't completely clean out tank, only changed 50% of the water, before adding the tetras and another betta.

Initially I had 6 fish in an established tank: 5 diamond tetras and 1 very mild mannered betta. They got along for almost two months.

The issue started to occur a few days ago after I went on vacation for 1 week. I had done the water and filter change the day before I left, and had asked my roommate to feed my fish for me. When I came back, a foul smelling brownish gunk developed around the feeding hole, and the diamond tetras were lethargic. I suspect overfeeding.

I immediately changed out 30% of the water and proceeded to change out 15% everyday for the past two days. Second time I change out the water, I noticed one of the diamond tetra developed a bloody eye. The next day he died. Today after I changed the water again I noticed another tetra developed a bloody eye, and is at the surface gasping for air. This time I went ahead and scooped him out, and put him under a mild anesthesia so I can take photos of the infected eye.





































So far all the other fish seem to be ok, but since this case happened twice I suspect it is more than just a coincidence. I just want to know what causes this symptom.

Below are standard info to give some environmental context. Thank you for your attention.

Regards, Theresa

1. Size of aquarium (# of gallons)
8 gallons

2. Is your aquarium setup freshwater or brackish water?
Freshwater

3. How long the aquarium has been set up?
4 months

4. What fish and how many are in the aquarium (species are important to know)
One betta splenden and four diamond tetras

5. Are there live plants in the aquarium?
yes

6. What temperature is the tank water currently?
84 degrees F

7. What make/model filter are you using?
Biorb Life S30, undergravel

8. Are you using a CO2 unit?
No

9. Does your aquarium receive natural sunlight at any given part of the day?
Not direct

10. When did you perform your last water exchange, and how much water was changed?
approximately 15%

11. How often do you perform water changes?
Weekly

12. How often and what foods do you feed your fish?
Tetramin, freeze dried brine shrimp and/or freeze dried bloodworms. Twice a day.

13. What type of lighting are you using and how long is it kept on?
Biorb LED lighting. 14hour extended daylight

15. What are your water parameters? Test your pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.
Last time I tested the water using the strips, everything was nominal (pH was about 6.8, no nitrite, small amounts of nitrate. Ammonium strip indicated mildly stressed but it has been like that for weeks despite the religious weekly water changes). Just took out another water sample to take to the aquarium for another test.

Also, one teaspoon of aquarium salt per gallon.

16. What test kit are you using and is it liquid or test strips?
Test strips

17. When was the last time you bought a fish and how did they behave while in the pet store tank?
Almost two months ago, fish were spunky and would swim up and down excitedly when it is feeding time.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

An eight gal tank, established or otherwise is too small for schooling fish such as the diamond tetra which can approach 3 inches as adults. There just isn't the swimming area needed.
I suspect the overfeeding caused a possible ammonia spike which considering you report slight traces of ammonia for weeks now,is killing the fish. There are no safe levels of ammonia for tropical fish. In an established tank with healthy biological filter,the ammonia and nitrites must read zero all day ,every day. As mentioned , the eight gal. is small and water quality in small tanks is much more difficult to maintain. Many who keep only a single betta which would be ideal for your tank, change 25 percent of their water twice a week,each week, and it is a good practice.
Also ,you should be using a dechlorinator such as PRIME or AMQUEL+ with each water change. These two water conditioners will help detoxify AMMONIA,CHLORINE.CHLORAMINES< and to a lesser degree,nitrites. 
Were it me,(and it ain't) I would keep a single betta in the eight gal and perform water changes as described until such time as you can spring for a larger tank to better accomodate additional fish.
As for the eye problem, It is possible that a bacterial infection has developed behind the eye causing swelling. I personally,have no expertise in proper diagnosing of fish ailments but I can tell you that so long as fish are in crowded conditions,and are exposed to even low levels of ammonia, the prognosis is not good.


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

1077, the ammonia toxicity depends on the temperature and acidity. Even 0.25 itself is safe if the temperature is no more than 80 degrees with a pH ranging from 7.4 and below. The acidic water would have neutralized most of the ammonia by converting it into ammonium. I do wonder however what exactly the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are. Those are very vague. Theresa, could you please switch your test strips to API liquid drops? Avoid the test strips altogether and invest in a master test kit by API which cost at least $25.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

With all due Respect Lupin, I do not agree. Weeks of exposure to even low levels of ammonia would represent a chronic condition in the aquarium that fish are being exposed to daily in addition to salt being added on a regular basis which I nearly forgot to mention.
I am aware of the toxicity of ammonia at lower pH values.


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

We're speculating at the moment how high the ammonia is so unless the actual results are posted, then we cannot just argue and continue speculating further ammonia is the main culprit when there are various issues that may also be responsible for this scenario including the salt which you have pointed out. Furthermore, if you read Theresa's post, her fish started going downhill only after she came back from her vacation so for you to speculate the fish may have been exposed for weeks to ammonia, that is still an inconclusive finding.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Lupin, I am capable of reading although it may appear otherwise considering my often horrific spelling. If you would note the response from the original poster (question #15) It is that response which speaks the loudest to me. Poster indicated they have been measuring small levels of ammonia for weeks.
I shall apologize for any misunderstanding you and I may have,but make no such apolgies for voicing an opinion that from my perspective, is probable contributer.


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## vnvlain (Nov 5, 2009)

Hello,



1077 said:


> Also ,you should be using a dechlorinator such as PRIME or AMQUEL+ with each water change. These two water conditioners will help detoxify AMMONIA,CHLORINE.CHLORAMINES< and to a lesser degree,nitrites.


I do and have used Amquel at every water changes, ever since my first betta. Sorry I didn't specify that earlier.



1077 said:


> Were it me,(and it ain't) I would keep a single betta in the eight gal and perform water changes as described until such time as you can spring for a larger tank to better accomodate additional fish.


Oddly enough, I asked the aquarium (not a chain like Petsmart) whether my tank will be too small to accommodate a community. She said that as long as I religiously do 10-20% water changes every week and change out the filter each time, and that I'm not starting from a brand new tank, a small school of tetras (5 fish) should be ok. That seemed to be the case for the first couple of months but it could be that the overfeeding simply brought the tank to a critical point.

And the strange thing is that the betta is showing no symptoms whatsoever. Are bettas really that much more hardier than most fish?

Thanks for the responses. I'll keep you posted once I get the water result from the aquarium later today.


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## vnvlain (Nov 5, 2009)

*Results back*

Here is the result for the water:

GH: ~30 ppm
KH: ~20 ppm
pH: ~6.2
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 40 ppm

Ammonia: 1.0 ppm

I went and purchased the liquid test kit as suggested. Ammonia is quite high, so I think it is safe to say that the fish are suffering from ammonia poisoning. I've been using the strips for the past month and it never showed level this high. I'll keep the pictures up for visual references.

Thanks a bunch for the suggestions...I'll do another water change, this time 50% of the tank, and try again. I'll keep changing the tank one gallon a day with an extra dose of Amquel and see if it helps at all.

Regards, Theresa


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

Hmmm...That's weird. With a pH that exceedingly low, the ammonia should have been converted to ammonium making it less toxic. It appears with your pH that low, the bacteria cannot process most of the ammonia into nitrite. They tend to be less active in acidic water. Perhaps this may be because the 15% water change you were doing, is not enough. I'd simply change the water to as much as 50-60%. What we need to do here is adjust your hardness levels. KH at 20 is very soft. Do you have crushed corals, limestones or oyster shells? Those can be used as they contain calcium carbonate to increase the hardness thus increasing the pH. Keep the pH to at least 7.0-7.6 range and watch your ammonia. Do not elevate the pH further as the ammonia itself is already high and can instantly kill your fish if you're not careful. 

Lower your temperature to at least 78 degrees. 84 degrees isn't really required and it also can deplete oxygen levels aside from the fact ammonia can burn their gills.


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## vnvlain (Nov 5, 2009)

*Water changed*

Hi Lupin, thanks for your suggestion. I've taken them all to heart.

Put the fish in an emergency tank, I'm down to 3 tetras and 1 betta now...the one in the photo didn't make it.  I just changed out about 62% of the water (gravel vacuumed extensively), replaced the filter, put Amquel+ treated water back into the tank, and lowered the heater to 78 degrees.

I tested the initial water condition:

Ammonia: 0 ppm
pH: 7.2
GH: 120 ppm
KH: 80 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 0 ppm

This is the baseline for the initial water condition. Other than it being a little basic, everything looks good. But like you suggested, I will monitor the hardness, pH and ammonia for the next few days.

Another question: Do you know if activated charcoal can soften water?

Thanks again for your help.


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

The activated carbon will not do anything to your parameters other than absorb chemicals, tannins, odor, etc.:wink:


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

And the strange thing is that the betta is showing no symptoms whatsoever. Are bettas really that much more hardier than most fish?

Thanks for the responses. I'll keep you posted once I get the water result from the aquarium later today.[/quote]

I shall assume.(always a bad thing) from your filter,and lighting, that you have the biorb which is very much like a bowl. There is little surface area for oxygen exchange at the surface due to the shape of these bowls. The Betta has a labrynth organ which allows it to pull much of it's oxygen from the atmosphere while your tetras must get theirs from dissolved oxygen in the water. The smaller the surface area for oxygen exchange, combined with high temperatures and perhaps excessive organics(nitrates), will substantially reduce oxygen available for the Tetras.
Add to this elevated ammonia levels,and the enviornment lends itself to stressed fish which often times leads to sick fish.


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## vnvlain (Nov 5, 2009)

*another sad day...*



1077 said:


> I shall assume.(always a bad thing) from your filter,and lighting, that you have the biorb which is very much like a bowl.


I posted the model number of the Biorb in my first entry (Life S30), which is actually not a bowl. I specifically chose not to get a bowl shaped tank.

biOrb Life S30 - Official biOrb Aquariums - Reef One. Perfect biOrb Fish Tanks for Aquarium Fish | Official biOrb Aquariums - Reef One. Perfect biOrb Fish Tanks for Aquarium Fish

The picture is not accurate...they actually give you porous gravel instead of those smooth pebbles you see in the photo. Also, there is a little hideout cave for the fish, which creates extra surface area for the bacteria to breed.

So the saga has ended. I woke up this morning and the remaining three diamond tetras had passed away. There are no physical signs of illness...in fact last night the tetras were swimming around and chasing each other like they did when I first got them (which I thought indicated a happy fish). I did a morning water test prior to feeding the betta, and the results were interesting:

GH: 60 (lower than yesterday)
KH: 80
Ammonia: <0.25 ppm (not quite 0, but pretty close)
Nitrite: 1 ppm (expected after cleaning the tank)
Nitrate: 20 ppm
Temperature: 78 degrees
pH: 6.2

6.2!? How did the pH drop so sharply overnight? Does this have to do with the drop in GH as well? I'm guessing the stress and the shock from the sudden drop of pH might have killed them...but how can the pH decrease so quickly?


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

Did you add anything that would have increase the hardness levels? Your hardness changes are very strange.:? I am so sorry about your losses.:sad:


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## vnvlain (Nov 5, 2009)

*Other parameters*

I don't think I added anything to increase/decrease hardness in the water. The baseline looked benign enough, so I decided to wait one day and see how it goes.

I might as well list the additives I added to the water yesterday as well:

API Stress Coat (1 packet per 10 gallon)
API Stress Zyme (1 packet per 10 gallon)
1 tsp of Amquel+ (in addition to the Amquel+ treated water)

Will any of those affect the hardness/pH so drastically?

The betta is doing fine as far as I can tell...I will hold off on getting any other fish until I can figure what is turning the water so acidic. I will get some crushed coral and add small amounts of them over time until the pH is regulated.

Thanks again everyone for the responses.  I feel really bad for those little guys...


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## cerianthus (Jul 13, 2008)

vnvlain,
Although it has been quite a while since I've held Amquel/Amquel +, is it possible to go thru fine prints on the bottle where it maight say " this product may distort the reading of Ammonia Test when using nessler reagents (1 bottle reagent and color chart goes from clear to yellow)). Thus recommend to use salycylate Reagent test kit (2 separate bottles where color chart goes from yellow to green).
Which one are you using?
BTW, I dont see a need for all those bottles. Waste of your hard earned MONEY, IMO. Just use stresscoat as dechlorinator.
I dont believe in Stresszyme at all. You dont need extra beneficial bacteria in well established tank. Stop using it. And same goes for Amquel/Amquel+.

As far as ammonia in pH 6.2, I would not even worry if level was lot higher. But if you raise the pH above 7.6 in presence of ammonia, asking for trouble.
Even at 6.2, never lost the BB but would like to see stable pH close to neutral for most tropical.
For now make sure it does not go any lower.

What types of gravel do you have and for how long?

What is pH/GH/ KH/NH3/NO2/NO3 of your tap water?


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## vnvlain (Nov 5, 2009)

cerianthus said:


> Although it has been quite a while since I've held Amquel/Amquel +, is it possible to go thru fine prints on the bottle where it maight say " this product may distort the reading of Ammonia Test when using nessler reagents (1 bottle reagent and color chart goes from clear to yellow)). Thus recommend to use salycylate Reagent test kit (2 separate bottles where color chart goes from yellow to green).
> Which one are you using?


Hi cerianthus, it's Ammonia testing from API, and it uses the salycylate reagent.



cerianthus said:


> BTW, I dont see a need for all those bottles. Waste of your hard earned MONEY, IMO. Just use stresscoat as dechlorinator.
> I dont believe in Stresszyme at all. You dont need extra beneficial bacteria in well established tank. Stop using it. And same goes for Amquel/Amquel+.


The packets came with the filter I bought, so I figured it couldn't hurt. 

I did read that Amquel+ can lower pH somewhere...I don't know if that is one of the culprits of acidic water. Currently ammonia reading is non-existent from the aquarium.



cerianthus said:


> What types of gravel do you have and for how long?


The gravel I'm using came with the Biorb kit, but base on the features I'm thinking porous volcanic rock, course-grained...possibly some type of gabbro (granite like rock). The tank has been established for 3 months before the latest batch of fish. It used to house a 2 year old betta before he passed away (due to cancer, not because of the tank). A few days after he died, I got another betta and five diamond tetras and had them for almost two months before last week when all except the betta passed away. Two weeks ago I went out of town and the caretaker had overfed the fish, triggering a chain of reactions that resulted in the loss of the tetras.



cerianthus said:


> What is pH/GH/ KH/NH3/NO2/NO3 of your tap water?


I just tested the tap water (without Amquel+ treatment):
pH: ~7.6 (it might be more basic since the test kit only has a range from 6.0 to 7.6)
GH: 120-180 ppm
KH: 80 ppm
NO2: 0 ppm
NO3: 0 ppm
NH3: 1 ppm


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## cerianthus (Jul 13, 2008)

Sometimes those freebies when not used properly can cause problems which we can find ourselves baffled as to what happened, scratching our head, one of the reasons for me loosing hair, lol!

I would not add any stresszyme to new tank nor well established tank. Next time when you do NH3 test, can you add one drop of well shaken stresszyme into that same test vial to see if color changes.

Amquel or any other equivalents is only temporary fix (if it works??) which will hamper with reestablishment of more beneficial bacteria (BB) by locking them up.

As Lupin suggests, 1 ppm of NH3 in 6.2 is harmless. What you should not do at this point is massive water changes , especially with your tap. I would perform smaller (10% very important ) but more frequent water changes.
When done in small volume using your tap, you will achieve two things with each water change. You will lower the NH3 level (dilution) and at the same time, pH may go up (may tanke several water changes before noticing pH increase). This will also raise your total hardness (GH) and will assist in stablization of pH down the road since your tap Gh is higher than tank. This is good since this is what you want to/should achieve.

Make sure pH does not go higher than 7.4 before NH3 is well under controlled (0 ppm)

Eventually your tank will resettle and should not have issues with NH3/NO2 and hopefully none with pH either.

Your tap water is mederately hard (medium) hard and when right amount of water and time b/n water changes are figured out (all depends on tanks bioload), you should not have same issues anymore. 

Good Luck!

Btw, whenever something goes wrong, should run the testing before applying any actions to tank. By the time any actions are applied (water changes. etc), we will never know exact condition of water at that time when problems developed. 
Test results should be logged with date/detailed description of symptoms/actions taken/any remedy (med) and prognosis. 

These log book can become very handy down the road.


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## cerianthus (Jul 13, 2008)

Forgot about the gravel. I am NOT suggesting to changed the gravel but any porous substrate will collect fine detritus within each granule which will lower pH/GH as they can breakdown with time. 

*Dont change it now though, especially when experiencing NH3 problems*. Maybe down the road


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## molliefan09 (Sep 21, 2009)

IMHO, i would not use any of the above mentioned...i would just use PRIME it helps convert ammonia into ammonium and it is also a dechlorinator and also helps with the slimcoat of the fish....i was using stresscoat + and wwas having issues with somethings and switched to PRIME and i have been fine ever since.....i swear by this product and it has never affected my ph/gh/kh and all my fish are happy and healthy


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## cerianthus (Jul 13, 2008)

molliefan09 said:


> IMHO, i would not use any of the above mentioned...i would just use PRIME it helps convert ammonia into ammonium and it is also a dechlorinator and also helps with the slimcoat of the fish....i was using stresscoat + and wwas having issues with somethings and switched to PRIME and i have been fine ever since.....i swear by this product and it has never affected my ph/gh/kh and all my fish are happy and healthy


Worst way of keeping fish, depending on chemicals which is only short term relief when we can use the concept of bio-activity as it happens in nature, a long term relief.
By understanding a bit on water chemistry, can omit/eliminate suc unncessary additves/chemical.s Waste of your hard earned MONEy.
Virtually ammonia (NH3) is negligible with very shophisticated testing equipment at pH of 6.2. Pretty much all of it is in the form of Ammonium (NH4+). So why use such addtives when its already in NH4+?

Fish have ability to produce slime of their own. No need for extra slime.
When too much of these added slime are used, it can hamper the respiratory/excretory functions (deadly as fish will drown/die from its own waste).
I have not touch a single bottle of dechlorinator after understanding how I could dechlorinate (I was teen then, some 40 yrs ago).
I am not saying others to not use dechlorinator but to point out why use additives unnecessarily!!!


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## vnvlain (Nov 5, 2009)

*Thanks everyone*



cerianthus said:


> Worst way of keeping fish, depending on chemicals which is only short term relief when we can use the concept of bio-activity as it happens in nature, a long term relief.


Hi cerianthus, I see your point. I am looking at this long term however, and I do completely understand the issues with "over-involvment" with your tank: Too much work on the owner's part than necessary, and fish go through unnecessary shock.



cerianthus said:


> I have not touch a single bottle of dechlorinator after understanding how I could dechlorinate (I was teen then, some 40 yrs ago).
> I am not saying others to not use dechlorinator but to point out why use additives unnecessarily!!!


Bear in mind that coastal Florida water is very alkaline due to the large amount of chlorine we used to treat our water. It wouldn't surprise me in the least that the local tap water's pH is close to 8.0. One of my roommates used to work for the water treatment plant at West Melbourne Florida, and the amount of chlorine they use is staggering. Dechlorinator is a must here in Florida. I also use activated carbon in my filter, so the filter also helps with dechlorinating the water...but treatment with Amquel+ or something of the like is necessary down here for aquarium hobbyists.

The reason I am concerned about the pH is because the effectiveness of the nitrifying bacteria decreases with the drop in pH. Anything less than <6.2 in pH really affects the bacteria's ability. I really would like to keep the pH around 6.8 if possible. I have ordered some crushed coral and will put a small amount of them in the tank to see if that helps at all. As for the substrate, I don't think I'm going to replace that anytime soon. The tank is not that big, and currently ammonia is not a problem. 

In the future when I move to a bigger place, I'll probably get a 20 gallon tank and get a small freshwater community, and use the Biorb as a medical tank.

Currently I'm keeping track of the water and putting a small amount of SeaChem Reef Buffer to keep the pH at constant 6.8 (very little dose goes a VERY long way, 1/10 of a tsp twice a day). I'll keep doing this until the crushed corals arrives. The KH value in the tank is still very low, hopefully that will change as well with the corals.

Thanks everyone for your invaluable advice. This was my first community aquarium, and I've learned a lot on what not to do.

Regards, Theresa


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