# The good and bad of your substrate choice



## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

When I first started with the aquarium, I set up a tank with a Red Echo Complete substrate. I was always in awe of some of the tank photos where the person had black Substrate. It was so clean looking and everything popped against the solid black substrate. I changed one of my tanks to black and LOVED it. Now.... many months later, I see the downside. I had an outbreak of mystery snails (I missed one clutch of eggs) My Assassins have made quick work of them but... they don't remove the shells. My once pristine black substrate is now littered with little White shells. 

I can't such the shells out with the python as I thought I would be able to. They basically spin around in the tube and though a few might make their way out, most settle back on the substrate. It looks like I will be pain stakingly removing them one at a time. That will take the better part of this month. :-?

I still enjoy the natural look of certain substrates. The slightly larger gravel I had in one tank years ago seemed to hide everything which was very nice. 

What choice did you make and do you still like it. If you could change it, would you, and why?


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## Tazman (Jan 15, 2012)

If your fish are not diggers, just bury the shells in the substrate.

I have playsand in my all my tanks to go with the Natural look of Lake Malawi, I do have to say though, I would have perhaps added some black substrate to my 55g Peacock tank to bring out the colors of the fish more. I did add some small gravel to the 180g tank but found it made the tank look slightly messy.

If I decide to get another big tank then I will research a bit more on substrate choice before jumping in..my 180g tank was sold and moved to its new home yesterday...am suffering today as my arms are killing me from moving 300lb's of rocks, 6 buckets of fish, 9 buckets of sand and then the tank itself!


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

Ha Ha I saw an add on craigslist for a 180 gallon which I really thought about picking up but it was a "take everything" deal and I didn't want everything. I would prefer to start fresh with substrate and the fish I want, not take someone else's fish. Not that I would have an issue with that if it was the kind I wanted. I just didn't want cichlids. Next tank is going to be small peaceful schools and lots of plants.

Why did you give up your 180 gallon?


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## Tazman (Jan 15, 2012)

7 years of enjoyment and it is going into an office complex my friend owns. We set it all up yesterday so as the staff arrive today they are going to get a big shock seeing a 6ft tank full in the entrance way 

It was just time I guess to give it up, nothing much more I could do with it with the Cichlids I had in it..plus side is I am contracted to do the maintenance on it as per my usual schedule that I did here..it is very weird though seeing a 7ft gap where the tank stand used to be.

I seriously considered getting another big tank with the money and making it into a saltwater tank but cost wise, not going to happen at the moment...I got a steal on a 55g tank at a garage sale Saturday morning $12!, so am going to spend some of the money in converting my 32g saltwater tank into the 55g.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

Well, that will keep you busy for awhile. I would love a 180 but then I think I would get rid of one of the smaller tanks, if not both. I would LOVE to be able to start over with another larger tank. I don't care for the dimensions of my 60 gallon. I would love the extra 2 feet in length of the 180 and I assume it was 24 inches wide? This tank is too narrow and you don't really get a front, middle and back when planting. You pretty much get front and back. Makes it difficult to get the look I really want in the tank. For now, this is what I have and I will do the best I can with it. 

Also, I have found some different substrates I would try in a new tank, if I get the opportunity.


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## Tazman (Jan 15, 2012)

Tank was 72" x 24" x 25". Weight issue was a major factor so I had to get the floor reinforced where it was sitting.

I have never really done a planted tank before, so perhaps once I have the 32g empty and moved into the 55g, then I may do a planted tank...I still have 2 Cichlid tanks so, adding a different setup appeals to me.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

It was sort of funny awhile back my brother was doing some work at my house. He was looking at the reinforcements in the basement and said "holy cow, you could park a truck on that!" It wasn't a truck I wanted to park on that. ha ha In other words, I think the weight wouldn't be an issue in that spot. I just have to find the right deal. CHEAP ha ha

I assume the salt water tanks will generally weigh more from all the live rock. I know a fresh water is quite heavy as well but maybe not quite as much.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Inga said:


> When I first started with the aquarium, I set up a tank with a Red Echo Complete substrate. I was always in awe of some of the tank photos where the person had black Substrate. It was so clean looking and everything popped against the solid black substrate. I changed one of my tanks to black and LOVED it. Now.... many months later, I see the downside. I had an outbreak of mystery snails (I missed one clutch of eggs) My Assassins have made quick work of them but... they don't remove the shells. My once pristine black substrate is now littered with little White shells.
> 
> I can't such the shells out with the python as I thought I would be able to. They basically spin around in the tube and though a few might make their way out, most settle back on the substrate. It looks like I will be pain stakingly removing them one at a time. That will take the better part of this month. :-?
> 
> ...


If you remove the large end of the Python which should be easy for it just slips on/off.
Then you will find considerably more suction to be the case, and the empty shells, or even small live snails,,will quickly get sucked up.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

I will try that, I was afraid the gravel would just as easily get sucked up the tube because it is pretty small pieces. Not to mention, the darn Corie's that are forever trying to help with the tank maintenance. :roll:


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

In my very first tank, when I knew nothing about keeping fish and made just about every mistake in the book, the only thing I got right (out of pure luck!) was black gravel.

A dark substrate is my favorite, by far. I have play sand now in two tanks, black gravel in one. The play sand is too light in my opinion. It will get a lot better once the floating plants shade it up a bit, but in direct light it is too light in my opinion. I've seen pictures of other tanks like Byron where it has a lot of black in it, but in my area not so much, mostly a light tan color.

Weight on a large tank ... it's less of an issue if you follow these two rules:

1) Place the tank along a load bearing wall. If you have an open basement this is easy to determine. Basically along an outside wall, or along an interior wall that has a large beam the floor joists rest on and is supported by pillars in the basement.
2) Place it perpendicular to your floor joists, again access to the basement makes this easy to determine. You want the tank to span as many joists as possible. If it is parallel to the joists you'll have all that weight on a single, maybe two joists which is bad.

The worst place to put a tank is parallel to the joists, and in the center of the span. So avoid that at all costs unless you reinforce from below.

I wouldn't put one on a second story. If you have a concrete slab foundation (no basement, or are putting the tank in the basement) you pretty much don't have to worry at all.

To be safe though, you might want to consult a structural engineer. I don't know how much they charge, but could be worth it for peace of mind.

A 180 with just the tank and water is 2100 pounds, a small truck would be in the 3000-5000 pound range, so if you can park a truck in your house you're fine


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## nags (Apr 30, 2012)

I have 2 bags of black gravel and 1 bag of bright green gravel and it looks amazing on with the LED lights I have. I agree that black is a great color choice.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

One of the benefits of a "mix" substrate [= one containing more than one colour or shade] is that "stuff" is not so easily seen. I've used natural gravel (the beige/black/white/brown mix) and a similar in black/gray/white which is darker, Flourite black (solid black) and play sand which is a mix of black/gray/tan/white. In the past I've also used the natural pea gravel size and the Birdseye gravel.

I have been resetting my tanks over the past year, and moving to playsand in each of them. Interestingly, I find the black to be "lighter" under the tank light, and a real disappointment [in more ways than just appearance:-(]. I am very fond of the play sand. It does darken after a few months, the fish do seem to like it, and I know it is authentic because it replicates the sand in many Amazonian streams--which may well be why my corys are so happy and spawning now.:lol:


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

Is the play sand hard to keep looking clean? I purposely didn't go with play sand because I thought it would soon be littered with stings of fish poo and I didn't know how to clean that all off without sucking up a whole bunch of sand each time. 

I might think about the play sand in my 25 as the current residents are aging out. I made the mistake of having one bag of black substrate and that wasn't quite enough so I added a 1/2 bag I had left over of some natural rock. It looks like crap mixed. I was too cheap to toss that though so... I will wait with it for awhile. 

At least the play sand would be cheap enough. How hard is it to clean before use?


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

I don't know if I'm bad at plants or what, but my play sand is constantly littered with plant particles. The hornwort needles are everywhere. I find that a lot of the stuff, you don't really notice until you start sucking it up though. My cories food is the same colour as the sand, so their poo is the same colour as the sand. It all blends very well. xD

The only thing I dislike about the sand is that I seem to have a hard time getting plants to stick in it. I have about 1.5 inches of sand. I can get them to stay but it takes a few tries. If I want to move around a plant (which I do semi often since the tank is still "developing") it usually creates a huge fuss. I don't use planting tongs though, just my fingers (I never really understood if there was a specific reason to use them). I'm using play sand in my new 20 gallon, but I think I will do 1.5 inches in the front, to 2.5 inches in the back where I want to plant more.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

That is very good to know, thank you. I too would likely put a few inches in as I know that keeping plants in place can be a challenge, even in gravel. Those darn stem plants love to float up to the top. It can be a lesson in frustration for sure. Does play sand come in different colors or is it just that neutral color? I could have sworn years ago I saw color choices?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Washing play sand initially is a pain, but the end result is worth it.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

I think there are colour choices. Maybe they become more available in the summer time though. For now I'm only seeing natural colours.
Not sure if coloured sand is safe for the aquarium though.
What pet stores sell could be fine, but it's usually really expensive.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

I am sure I am going to sound stupid here but... Do you put it into nylons or something to rinse it? I mean, I can't just toss it into my strainer like I did with the gravel. It would all scoot out through the holes. How do you handle that? I could lay some pantyhose in the strainer and pour the sand in over it. Ha Ha Now THAT would be a picture. 

This project might be pushed up. I have wanted to re-do the 25 gallon for quite some time. Might be a good start.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

I put it into a big bowl, fill it with water, leave the tap running, and just stir it constantly. The water turns all cloudy and I just let the cloudy water overflow out of the bowl, until the water runs clear (or clear enough for me).


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

Wow! I just looked on some of the store sites. Might be harder to find natural color. There is purple, green and Blue. I will have to check out some of the home building stores, I would guess they would carry it. 

I have heard there is pool sand? Is that a good option? I thought I remembered someone saying it was the same thing but lighter colored? Anyone use that?


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

I just cleaned 175 pounds of play sand :twisted:

I used two buckets. In one, I filled it about 1/5 to 1/4 full of sand. I then took the hose and blasted the heck out of it, getting it right down into the sand to make sure it was really kicking the sand up. You then turn the water off, wait a moment (30 seconds or so) and slowly pour the water out. You repeat that about 10-15 times (yeah...) until the water starts to look clear after you let it settle. Helps that after you get the initial dirt out that you reach your hand in and stir it around while spraying with the hose, just to get all the dirt. Once it starts pouring clear, you dump that sand into the second bucket and start on the next batch...

Repeat ... and repeat ... and repeat until your done. Took me two days (not full days, but about 4 hours total). With a smaller amount of sand it will of course go much faster 

Obviously outside in the street is best, as the waste water will be full of dirt and fine sand. If you do it inside, be extra careful not to heavier sand escape, as it might settle in your drain's trap. If you have a fine strainer on your drain that might work, but I found it was easiest outside in a lawn chair on a sunny day.

I wouldn't go over2.5-3" though. Sad compacts a lot more than gravel. MTS are wonderful for rooting around in the sand.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

Oh yeah, I forgot about the compacting sand and gas thing. Hm, lawnchair, drink and sand cleaning doesn't sound the worst. ha ha 

I might have to give this a bit more thought. I have not been able to find any MTS snails yet either. Guess I would want some of those lined up first also. Ducks in a row, ya know. 

Where did you get your sand?

Is pool sand as hard to clean?


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## Jayy (Dec 23, 2009)

I got my sand form home depot for like $3, for a ( I think) a 50lb bag. I've also fallen in to the black gravel pot. I have some in a 26 gal, and I thinking of doing balck sand in my 75.


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## Adamson (Feb 5, 2012)

One tank I have bigger black gravel.
The good: I think it looks cool, it hides any fish poop that might have been seen in there, and normally holds plants down pretty good.
The bad: The Red Devil I have in the tank tends to move the pieces around, he puts them in his mouth and moves them, I am worried that he might accidentally swallow one and die.

Another tank I have pool filter sand:
The good: It was cheap, easy to clean, and a new experience.
The bad: Poop is much more noticeable sitting on the substrate, also cleaning is a huge pain as the siphon sucks up a lot of sand, also I don't think it looks as cool as the gravel.


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## Sanguinefox (Nov 29, 2011)

I remember my first choice of gravel as an bright blue gravel. Later on a strange red gravel. I wish I had known better. The stuff was so difficult to clean (stuff would stick to the gravel and refuse to come off with a vacuum), and...it just hid so much stuff underneath as it trickled down to create sludge.

Now with my big tank and my small one there is playsand and I'll have to say even if it's not black it's a massive improvement. Now I can just hover my electric aquarium vacuum right over waste and suck it up without sucking up sand. It's so easy to spot waste and clean it up. My loaches also love to dig in it.


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

In all but one of my tanks I have the basic natural gravel. It serves its purpose well as it doesn't look bad and lets the plants root in it. I just wish it was a little darker to make the colors pop more. But with a black background, my tanks look pretty okay. 

The goldfish tank is another story. I have large river rocks due to the impaction risk with gravel. It's certainly a different look. I tried to get majority darker rocks, so it will look more natural. The lighter rocks are covered with algae now, so it has taken on a very natural look (lol I need to update my pictures). The major downside to it is that I can't have plants in it. Even the stem plants give me a helluva time just staying put. I just ended up ripping everything out. I'm going to try putting plants in terracotta pots. 

I'm going to change my 29 gal over to black sand when I get the funds. I can't wait to put the sand, black background, and a ton more plants in it.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Inga said:


> I am sure I am going to sound stupid here but... Do you put it into nylons or something to rinse it? I mean, I can't just toss it into my strainer like I did with the gravel. It would all scoot out through the holes. How do you handle that? I could lay some pantyhose in the strainer and pour the sand in over it. Ha Ha Now THAT would be a picture.
> 
> This project might be pushed up. I have wanted to re-do the 25 gallon for quite some time. Might be a good start.


Try placing sand in big pillow case and running water through until it runs clear.;-)


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

Inga said:


> Oh yeah, I forgot about the compacting sand and gas thing. Hm, lawnchair, drink and sand cleaning doesn't sound the worst. ha ha
> 
> I might have to give this a bit more thought. I have not been able to find any MTS snails yet either. Guess I would want some of those lined up first also. Ducks in a row, ya know.
> 
> ...


I got mine from Home Depot, Lowe's probably also sells it. There are various brands. Depending on your area it will be between $3 and $5 I think for a 50 lb bag. Quikrete is one, Pavestone is another brand.

Pool filter sand is easier to clean, but you have to find a dark color of it. Most is white, and white isn't a good choice (very bright for the fish).

I got my MTS from Petsmart, they'll give them away for free as they are a 'pest' snail. They are hard to find though, when the lights are on they usual are under the substrate. But look closely in all the tanks, particularly a plant tank if they have one. You might see one or two on the glass/walls. You only need one to seed a tank  But grab multiples if they have them. Petco is the same deal, pest snail so they don't care if you take them. Plus as chain stores, they can't sell you anything that isn't in the computer anyways.

LFS may or may not let you just take them, some sell them.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

Sanguinefox Wait until you change out your substrate someday. I changed mine out completely. I can't even describe the filth that was in that gravel and I keep my tanks very very clean. The STINK!!! Ugh!!! This is in part why I have decided to change out the substrate in my smaller tank when I re-do it. I think a fresh start isn't a bad thing. I will use the same plants, wood and won't change the filter so I don't have to "recycle" the tank. 
Oh and "electric aquarium vacuum?" I have got to get one of those. 

1077 Pillow case is an excellent idea.

Geo, Is the white really that much worse then the natural? maybe I could mix them? I have not seen dark colored pool sand but then.. someone made the point of the color maybe being a toxin for the fish? I guess it is better to stay with natural for that reason. All the stores around here currently have all kinds of strange colors of play sand. I am sure the kids love it but doubt the fish will. I will ask about some snails, thanks.


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## kafkabeetle (Jul 11, 2010)

Hi Inga! 

I've been using black flourite sand and I'm pretty happy with it. I didn't rinse it, even though it's notorious for being cloudy. I just filled it really (extremely) slowly and am careful during water changes and I haven't had any trouble with cloudiness during normal maintenance. I swear my experience goes exactly counter to every one else I've ever discussed it with, lol.

The plants love it. I haven't found it too difficult to root plants in, except for bacopa when I trim and replant it...but those are cuttings with no root systems to help anchor them so I doubt any other substrate would work much better. I have a pretty thin layer of it, maybe an inch in thickness, because I was concerned about gas pockets and my brother (who keeps saltwater tanks) said it could be avoided with a thinner layer of it.

Anyway, as far as cleaning it, as long as you keep the siphon a couple centimeters away from the surface of the sand, very little if any gets sucked up. All the debris seem to settle right on top so it's easy to clean IME, whereas they seem to sink into the crevices of larger gravel. I guess my only complaint is that when I got a layer of diatoms once it looked like crap, but it probably would on any substrate.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

I like the idea of being able to suck the mess up before it sinks into the gravel. When I did the full substrate change several months back, it was disgusting. Stink! I was looking into this stuff too http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produ...t=7176,7171,7170,7173,7174,7175,7172&breeds=1


I think that would be another good option for the cories. Though I am not overly excited about that color. This is another option http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produ...t=7176,7171,7170,7173,7174,7175,7172&breeds=1

I might run up to home depot later and just see what they have. That or a farm supply store that has sand boxes so would likely have play sand as well. I know it would be a cheaper option. That stuff above is $20.00 a bag and I would need at least 2 bags for that small tank. I just thought that was sort of the best of both worlds. Super fine but a bit heavier then sand so sucking it up would likely not happen so easily.


Oh, I just saw they have this too. This might be nice. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produ...yimages/larger/lg-71403-50793-fish-supply.jpg Problem is again, that would cost me at least $40.00 vs. playsand $10.00-$15.00.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

I wouldn't start with CaribSea and cories.
It's not real sand, it's glass shards. The bag actually says "not suitable for bottom dwellers" I'm pretty sure.
A few people have had it for a few months with cories with no noticed damage, but it's not worth putting it in a new set up knowing the risk.
It's also full of silicates (glass) and can leach in the water causing diatoms.
:/

If that gravel is CaribSea, it might be okay.. I'd double check the website, but last time I was there all their substrates had a big red X in the "bottom dweller friendly" category.


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## Sanguinefox (Nov 29, 2011)

Inga said:


> Sanguinefox Wait until you change out your substrate someday. I changed mine out completely. I can't even describe the filth that was in that gravel and I keep my tanks very very clean. The STINK!!! Ugh!!! This is in part why I have decided to change out the substrate in my smaller tank when I re-do it. I think a fresh start isn't a bad thing. I will use the same plants, wood and won't change the filter so I don't have to "recycle" the tank.
> Oh and "electric aquarium vacuum?" I have got to get one of those.
> 
> 1077 Pillow case is an excellent idea.
> ...


I've been through changing gravel twice. Never again..never ever ever ever again. That gravel stuff can go die in a fire. Its disgusting what my well maintained 20 gallon years ago managed to accumulate underneath the stuff.

Arn't they the best? I got mine for around 50 (I put in with a friend, and a family member) and it's been one of the best investments for the tank.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

Olympia said:


> *I wouldn't start with CaribSea and cories.*
> It's not real sand, it's glass shards. The bag actually says "not suitable for bottom dwellers" I'm pretty sure.
> A few people have had it for a few months with cories with no noticed damage, but it's not worth putting it in a new set up knowing the risk.
> It's also full of silicates (glass) and can leach in the water causing diatoms.
> ...


 

I am a little confused by that ^^^ The highlighted areas. It was CaribSea. Is that an alright brand then for Corie's, or not? From the picture, it appears like real heavy sand kernels?


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

Olympia said:


> I wouldn't start with CaribSea and cories.
> It's not real sand, it's glass shards. The bag actually says "not suitable for bottom dwellers" I'm pretty sure.
> A few people have had it for a few months with cories with no noticed damage, but it's not worth putting it in a new set up knowing the risk.
> It's also full of silicates (glass) and can leach in the water causing diatoms.
> ...


Really D: This is the stuff I was planning to use with my Pangio loaches. If it's too rough for cories, then I certainly wouldn't want to use it on burrowing loaches. Oh poop. 

Anyone have any better solutions?


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Well the CaribSea sand is made from glass shards.
I'm not sure what CaribSea gravel is made out of, it might be safer. Sorry, confusion. 

I've been searching for safe black sand. :s
There's Petco brand, I'm not sure of what it's made from..
Petco Black Aquarium Sand at PETCO
Seachem has black sand fluorite, so it isn't glass, and looks fine enough for cories, but you can mail them and ask.
Seachem. Flourite Black Sand
There's also this I found recommended on a British forum but not sure if shipping it down is worth it:
Unipac Limpopo Black Aquarium Sand 12.5kg £16.99 - Buy Substrate System Accessories


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

I had seen the Petco brand sand, but if I remember correctly I think I heard it was dyed. Not really what I want to put in with a more sensitive fish like cardinal tetra. The Seachem product looks good except I'm pretty sure flourite would raise the GH. Again, not something I want for cardinals. I've considered using play sand like Byron does, but I would really like some black sand to make all of my fishy colors POP!


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Makes sense, since it's minerals.
Seachem says it doesn't alter pH, so probably doesn't affect kH. A quick search and all I could find was one person saying fluorite appears to raise dH by 1-2 degrees.
The darkest natural sand I can think of is quikrete, I think it's spelt. I have King brand and it's a bit lighter. There's also construction sand which has lots of tones, but who knows what that'll do to the water, it seems pretty course.


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

Black pool filter sand exists, you just have to find it and will take some calling around. You may have to look at pool supply stores versus home improvement stores.


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