# Goldfish affected by ick, fin rot, swimbladder!! HELP



## candapandaa (Jul 23, 2008)

This is my first post, I am looking all over for immediate, knowledgable assistance! Here's my info. 

My current aquarium is 2 gallons. It is a freshwater tank, and has been set up for approximately 3 months. There are two fish in the aquarium, both goldfish. One is an Egg Fish, the other is a fantail. There are no live plants, and the current temperature is unknown. My tank was a gift and has no filter, and no CO2 unit. My aquarium only receives indirect sunlight for about 9 hours during the day. The last water exchange was 90% yesterday. I perform changes every week and a half. My fish are fed nutramax goldfish flake food 2 times daily, only what they can eat in two minutes. I have a small bulb (not too bright) which is on for about 10 hours per day.
MY CONCERNS : I have had three fish, keeping two at a time. I first had my egg fish and a ranchu lion, and the ranchu contracted what i now know to be swimbladder disease and died. I waited about a week and a half, then introduced a new fantail goldfish from Petcetera into my tank which seemed quite healthy at the time. I did not know about having to quarantine them until last night when I stared looking for answers about my fish's illnesses. Since getting the fantail this last friday, there has been a severe outbreak of ick on both fish. I visited petcetera and purchased their anti-ick treatment, and the morning after using it i found that the fantail had been relieved of many of it's white spots, but that it's tail was now discintegrating. The eggfish (the original fish) has not improved at all, and simply sits on the bottom of the tank. Further, since arriving home tonight after a full day of the fish being exposed to the ick treatment (which was dosed in ABSOLUTELY the correct amount for the tank) the fantail is now exibiting symptoms that look like constipation and swimbladder disease, simply floating unbalanced and oblivious at the top of the tank. 
MY PRIORITY is saving the Egg Fish, as I dont expect the fantail to live much longer, comparing it to how my ranchu lion lasted (the fantail is looking exactly the same as the day before the ranchu lion died). That means that the most important thing is treating his ick.
MY QUESTION is this...I just bought a bigger tank with a filter today (5 gallon with an Aquaclear filter). Should I separate the egg fish and treat him separately since he seems to only have ick while the other has ick as well as fin rot and swimbladder? and if so, is ick treatment best with medication, or is the salt method more effective. 
IF SOMEONE COULD GIVE ME A DAY TO DAY SCHEDULE so that I know what to add when, and when to be changing the water, that would be much appreciated. 
My water hasn't been tested for nitrate and whatnot, as I don't know how to do that, so I haven't got any testing equipment.
The last fish I bought was the now motionless and constipated fantail goldfish, and it was behaving perfectly normally in the petstore tank. 

I hope someone can help me soon! as for now, I'll be changing the Egg fish into the new tank and hoping for the best. THANK YOU


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

*try this out and let me know how it goes..*

since no ones helping you out, i thought i would so you can act fast. ich is a very common infection for fish. i personally would set up your new tank, let the water in the tank sit for atleast 3 days with the filter running ( this is to allow the chlorine in tap water to escape eventhough goldfish are hardy fish ) 
As for the ich salt helps to kill it. i would NOT suggest regular table salt because that its fine grain and contains i believe carbon? in it .. use a canning and pickling salt or i think its called sea salt.. because its more coarse ..use about a teaspoon per gallon or im sure aquarium salt will work from your pet store and follow the directions included on the little carton it comes in.. another thing i would do is water changes, probably once or twice a day to eliminate as much of the free swimming stage of the ich as possible..just when you go to add more salt consider how much water was taken out and how much is left in so you dont over do it with the salt..i would do this for about a week because when the ich is on the fish, nothing can kill it but dont worry, eventually it will "fall off" so thats why water changes are important because your main goal is killing the "free swimming" ich thats in the rest of the tank.. i would see how this goes and if your fish seem "cured" after all this i would transfer them to the new tank you had sitting with the filter going.. i then would super clean out the old tank, possibly with actual table salt and hot water so you can have yourself a "quarenteen" tank for your next new fish.. i hope i covered it good enough for you and if theres questions dont hesistate to private message.. good luck playing doctor!! let me know how it goes..


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## candapandaa (Jul 23, 2008)

thank you so much for your reply. just like you said, since nobody had said anything, here's what i went ahead and did :

I set up the new tank and left the carbon out of the filter since other websites recommended that when treating ick. I slowly introduced the one fish in...until the bag tipped over and he just swam right in...oops. He seems like he's getting on okay though, he's swimming alot more than he was in the other tank...actually, he's pretty much constantly swimming, as opposed to sitting on the bottom doing nothing. I suppose is this partially due to the amount of room he now has...5 gallons instead of 2. Anyway, I had put water conditioner in already to remove chlorine and whatnot, it's also supposed to coat the fish to help protect and heal it and neutralize heavy metals (good, since my tap water has high iron...?) I also added less than a quarter of the amount recommended of petcetera anti-ick treatment. Is it still safe to put salt in? Let me know...

As for the other fish, I have to assume that he's far worse off, considering that he's floating sideways at the top of the other tank. I've had my egg fish longer, and i'd rather put more effort toward rescuing him, as the other one seems completely doomed. I'm going to do a water change for him tomorrow and hope for the best.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

I read your post and would respectfuly suggest that you cut feeding to once a day and only feed as much as you SEE the fish eat in one minute. You indicated twice a day and enough food for two minutes? Small aquariums are very unforgiving when it comes to maintaining water quality and goldfish produce a LOT of poo which = ammonia add to that excess food that may be laying onthe bottom which also = ammonia and the water quality in a small tank quickly goes south. 90 percent of fish health problems are directly related to water qualityor lack thereof .Try counting from 120 backwards. If you are feeding enough food for fish to eat for this length of time I have no doubts that ammonia levels in your water are a contributer to your problems. A quality test kit will allow you to closely monitor the conditions in your tank which in my view is IMPERATIVE in such a small enviornment.Ideally one goldfish would be housed in an aquarium of no less than 20 gal. I am not saying that your fish won't surrvive but the maint. performed by you will need to be performed regularly without fail. This should in my view consist of 20 percent water changes with conditioner added before water is placed into the tank evey two days. 90 percent water changes are too much change at once and will stress the fish. Smaller regular water changes are better for fish as opposed to large infrequent changes. Rinse out the filter cartridges in the old water you take out not tap water and replace it when it begins to fall apart. Lastly I would urge you to provide the goldfish with the largest tank that you can afford and have space for. The survival of the fish in their current quarters will depend entirely on your sustained efforts in providing good clean water.  PS I would also cut down the lighting to help keep alage in check and keep blinds pulled on the window. You could be unknowingly heating the water to uncomfortable temperatures for the fish. Good Luck.


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

the fish introduced to the new tank is swimming more freely my guess because he is out of the ich infested water so i would still be weary of keeping an eye on the new tanks water and prob. still do a frequent water change but doesnt have to be as often, just to make sure you flushed the ich completely.. i personally never added sea salt to any of my tanks with a fish in it but my dad did yesterday to his little hospital tank (which happens to be mine :x because his fancy goldfish is fighting a case of ich ) the fish seems fine but me personally i would add aquarium salt ( the dosage recommended on the carton, small cartons at like petsmart are like $2) since its made for fish tanks and you already have your fish in there..just remember, clean water usually means happy fish..
on the carbon in the filter note,i heard it wasnt good for plants somewhere and i have multiple tropical planted tanks and i heard that if used for a long period of time it increases the risk of a fish getting "hole in the head disease" which is a hole different disease effecting head and lateral line erosion so i use carbon in my filter pads sometimes and sometimes dont, more times i dont and i dont change the pad until the water overflows the filter ( idk what kind of filter you have ) because helpful bacteria eventually form..BUT since your tank has been having ich problems i would try keeping everything as clean as possible..and continue water changes..
:arrow: As for the fish left in the 3gal. tank dont loose hope.. i also read somewhere if i fish recovers from ich it doesnt catch it again or its really hard to..(dont know how true that is) and ich is a common parasite that most likely effected half the people's fish on this forum atleast 1 in their fish tanking careers.. you might want to continue the water changes on this tank as well.. possibly set up a tuberware with water and add your conditioners or aquarium salt to this .. let this sit for about 3 days to rid it of chlorine ( just be careful mosqiutos dont lay larvae because it will be stagnant water ) and on the 2 night or 3 day take alittle water from the 3 gal tank put it into a bag, carefully net your fish out, put him in the same bag, seal the bag with alittle air and float it in this tuberware.. while the fish is in the bag floating, drain the 3gal. tank..DO NOT PICK IT UP and dump it, this will break the seals of the cualking and the tank will possibly leak.. anyways drain it ( start a syphon, or use a cup and scoop out the water ) i would then clean the tank thoroughly.. do NOT use soaps of any kind because they will leave behind residues that will be harmful to the fish when you refill the tank with water.. i would remove the gravel if you have some and through rinse it...and wouldnt return it back to the tank just yet...if the tanks glass i suggest alittle amonia and a clean scrub sponge because it will rinse clean ( just make sure you rinse it enough ) .. you can even use hot water and salt to try to kill the ich left in the tank.. just be carefull of not scratching the glass with the grains of salt.. i think amonia is a better bet..anyway rinse the tank out very good and fill it with the preconditioned water in the tuperware, since the fish was floating in the bag its already acclimated to the water temp. i just wouldnt suggest letting him swim out because this would "mix" the old tank water from the bag with the all new clean water, so you can net him carefully from the bag. like i said i would keep the gravel off the bottom of the clean out tank for awhile just when you go to put it in, remember gravel displaces water and if your water levels too high it will over flow it..seems like alot but it might save your fish, you never know.. and if you go to your local fish store, be weary of what the suggest ( they arnt ALWAYS wrong, just seem to be more concearned with making a sale then making a happy customer ) and like i said i know it seems like alot but i hope all this work doesnt turn you away from the fabulous hobby of fishkeeping, but it truely is and can be tons of fun!! again, let me know how everything goes .. and good luck.


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

and yes 1077 hit it on the head with a small tank, like i said in my first post goldfish will grow to the size of the tank.. AND not to add that the protozoan ich in the smaller tanks has better chances of finding a fish to host itself on..and always clean water=happy fish ( and plants! :wink: )


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

I am not a believer in moving already stressed or sick fish. Were it me I would follow the directions on whatever ICH medications I was using . This may require treatment for as long as ten days. I would NOT tear down the tank or clean with ammonia. If you feel you must , Then I would use warm water and vinegar and rinse everything thouroughly. If the sick fish dies I would leave the tank alone, turn up the temp. to 82degrees and let it run for a couple weeks. The ICH parasite will die without a host (fish) to sustain it. Then I would remove all the decorations clean them as described with vinegar and water or two tablespoons of bleach per five gal of water and rinse hell out of them . Let them set out for a day then change the filter if there is one, put the decorations back in and you have a small hospital or quarantine tank. I would NOT disturb the gravel as this is where the majority of beneficial bacteria needed to break down ammonia and other harmful chemicals is found.


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## candapandaa (Jul 23, 2008)

thank you all for your input. I'm sad but not surprised at all to report to you that the fantail goldfish (also known as flapjack) has died. He didn't even bother to flip upside-down. Sadly, this is exactly what happened to my ranchu lion, so i guess at least i knew it was coming when I saw how it was acting. Sadness  Time to clean out the 2 gal. 

In the other tank, my egg goldfish, Buckley, is still quite alive, and is fighting to move around as much as possible, though it seems ick has still got his lower fins restricted, and I've noticed early finrot on his tail. If it is that he survives, I suppose that I should keep him solo? He is in a 5 gallon tank. 

In terms of all the basic things I seem to be missing, I pray my fish and you all can forgive me and help me learn, because I haven't had fish since living with my mom at 10. And I didn't really do anything before.  Just watched. 

From what you all have said, my next step of action will be to add aquarium salt to the tank, which I'll be picking up after work (spent more than 150.00 in the last two days on these little guys!). And my dear old Flapjack will be disposed and the tank cleaned with vinegar and water. I'll let you know though, I'm not able to change the temperature in this tank...it's a very simple one, with only a bubble maker deal and no room for any other appliance.


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## Little-Fizz (Aug 19, 2007)

Ok, well a 5 gallon bowl isn't good enough for a goldfish, sorry. But they have HUGE bio loads. And you probably have the worst water quality in the in your 3 gallon. 

This is a very good salt treatment for ich, and its day to day steps. Very easy to follow. http://www.fishforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=7705

Sorry I missed this post before or I would have helped you out sooner. 

Ps, you don't take the media out of the filter. But just cut a little on the flossy side of the media and shake the carbon out and then you have a reusable filter media. But if you have meds in your tank now don't do that because you'll need the carbon to remove the medications from your tank.


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## candapandaa (Jul 23, 2008)

So today once I got out of work, I went to the pet store and FINALLY talked to somebody who actually knew what they were talking about, unlike the 'help' at Pet Cetera, Total Pet and Walmart. Bah. But yes, so what she said to me is that in the case of a severe infection, a combination of aquarium salt and PIMAfix can be used. Does this sound correct? 

Also, before I do anything, I'm going to take a gander at the instructions for salt treatment. This is very severe, I'm afraid, he's lost more of his tail since this morning.


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## candapandaa (Jul 23, 2008)

Also, is 5 gallons REALLY too small for my goldfish? It's not a big goldfish...it's no more than 2 inches long, and over the 4 months i've had him, he hasn't grown at all. If they can be kept in bowls, why not in 5 gallon tanks? I dont understand...


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## candapandaa (Jul 23, 2008)

also, I can't raise the water temperature since I don't have a heater..


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

candapandaa said:


> Also, is 5 gallons REALLY too small for my goldfish? It's not a big goldfish...it's no more than 2 inches long, and over the 4 months i've had him, he hasn't grown at all. If they can be kept in bowls, why not in 5 gallon tanks? I dont understand...


Fantail goldfish like all other fancy strains can grow to 8 inches. Depending on how you took care of it, it could have grown by as much as 4-5 inches by now. A 20g is always the bare minimum for only one goldfish. Bear in mind, goldfish are coldwater species that produce heavy amounts of waste which means you need to maximize your filtration capacity and water changes.

If I were you, keep a betta in the 5g and get another tank at 20-30g if you still have plans to keep goldfish. Keep the temperature steady at 74 degrees Fahrenheit for goldfish whereas 80 degrees Fahrenheit for bettas. If you are located in USA, then look on Craiglist for tank bargains.

Feed your goldfish once or twice a day and fast it a day per week. Do water changes 3 times a week and regularly monitor your water parameters.


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## Little-Fizz (Aug 19, 2007)

Woah, I was just thinking, and I don't think your goldfish would do very well with this ich treatment. I didn't even think about goldfish being cold water fish :? Well you can still use salt to kill the ich but it will take way longer and more then likely be way less effective because the heat speeds the ich's life cycle and kills it when its freely swimming around the aquarium.


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## candapandaa (Jul 23, 2008)

i figure it's probably helpful to see the fish we're talking about

see Buckley here...

http://s35.photobucket.com/albums/d172/indigo_flame17/?action=view&current=Buckleyedit.jpg


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## Little-Fizz (Aug 19, 2007)

candapandaa said:


> If they can be kept in bowls, why not in 5 gallon tanks? I dont understand...


It's a common misconception that it's ok to keep a goldfish in a bowl. And because goldfish are very hardy and can survive in bowls for a long time, it just further convinces people that theres nothing wrong with it.

Oh dear  Buckley is in very poor condition. 

Start treatment with the primafix asap. It looks like he might actually have a fungal infection too


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## candapandaa (Jul 23, 2008)

I've got Pimafix, is that what you mean? I'll be adding a half teaspoon daily for 7 days, as indicated on the bottle, and treating with aquarium salt as directed. I was assured these will work together since both are quite natural


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## Little-Fizz (Aug 19, 2007)

Lol! Yes that is what I meant! :wink: Sorry, an unnoticed typo as it would seem. 

Yes the pimafix is supposed to be natural, and you can't get more natural then salt. Make sure you take the carbon out of your filter or it will just suck up any medications you add to the tank.

Good luck!! I really hope buckley survives! He looks like a trooper.


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## candapandaa (Jul 23, 2008)

let's hope for the best! I'll post pictures as we progress. Hopefully better looking ones! 

also...he's lost alot of material from his tail, will it grow back together? it's just separating like...becoming feathery. is that possible to recover from? [/u]


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## Little-Fizz (Aug 19, 2007)

Yes, the tail will grow back, you must keep excellent water quality, it may take a long time but fish are really great healers.


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## candapandaa (Jul 23, 2008)

Good or bad results? This was taken 20 hours into treatment. Compared to the earlier photo, is he improving? It seems like lots of the ick is gone, but skin is falling. Is that the cyst, and the ick falling off? 

http://s35.photobucket.com/albums/d172/indigo_flame17/?action=view&current=BuckleyTop.jpg

http://s35.photobucket.com/albums/d172/indigo_flame17/?action=view&current=BuckleyClear.jpg
(the top are both from today)

http://s35.photobucket.com/albums/d172/indigo_flame17/?action=view&current=Buckleyedit.jpg
(this one is yesterday)

He is swimming around alot more, though he seems weak when he is around where the filter is pouring water in (I just changed the setting so it's not pouring in so hard). Alot more movement as opposed to yesterday, where he wouldn't move from the ground. 

I am assuming now is the time to do a partial water change...of 25 % due to the salt. I'll be doing that in an hour, if that's what you all think is good.

Please tell me he's getting better!!


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## Little-Fizz (Aug 19, 2007)

:shock: To be honest, I don't really know what that is!! It's not the ich falling off.. The skin under looks healthy though, it looks promising... :? It almost looks like hes got a mucus coat and its all falling off? Very weird. But he does look better!! Although he is still a sad looking fish, if he is swimming around and not resting on the bottom then thats great. 

Yes do a 25% water change and be sure to vacuum the gravel to pick up any ich cysts.


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## candapandaa (Jul 23, 2008)

hmm interesting. well maybe he's shedding the bad infect-y skin or something. who knows, hopefully this isn't some horrible skin-falling-off-for-good disease, but at least he's looking better underneath. 

I was going to ask, he seems to have some skin falling off like that inside his mouth that's bothering him. when he gasps, it flies out then back in and he seems aggrivated. It's safe to say that it looks like it's barely attatched, so is there a way i can help to remove it?


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## candapandaa (Jul 23, 2008)

perhaps is the Pimafix causing the bad skin to be shed? Or maybe it was some kind of growth on him?


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## Little-Fizz (Aug 19, 2007)

Its possible that hes producing a mucus coat to help shed the fungal infection? 

I wouldn't try and remove the skin yourself. It may end up hurting him more then doing good. It'll come off when its good n ready. 

The skin under all this gunk looks to be in very good condition. So just keep up what your doing and keep up posted.


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## candapandaa (Jul 23, 2008)

I will! Thanks so much for your help. All hope is not lost!


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## candapandaa (Jul 23, 2008)

Well, I regret to say that since midnight last night, Buckley has died. He's not floating upsidedown or anything like the others did...he looks like he simply froze in the position he was last in and ended up floating against the filter intake sucker thing. So he looked very alive when I woke up, but for the fact that he wasn't moving.  Does anyone have any idea why this would have happened? The water is at 73 degrees and he wasn't in any direct sunlight. I definitely didn't put too much medication in, because I put less than suggested, in case he wasn't used to it, you know? Hm..?

I turned off the filter and he just floated slowly up, still right side up. is that normal? I don't know. Anyway, since obviously goldfish are not right for this aquarium, if anyone has any ideas of what kind/how many fish I can put in this 5 gallon, please tell me. Maybe something small like neon tetras? I guess I'd be looking for fish that are hardy that can live around 73 degrees in my size tank. Let me know what you'd suggest. 

(Thank you all for your help, by the way. Even though he died, I did see a big improvement by last night. Pretty good for two days.)


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## Little-Fizz (Aug 19, 2007)

Aw  So sorry to hear about Buckely!!

:dunno: He was pretty bad, it might have just been to much for him. Theres really no way to tell what finally killed him. Lol I've never once had a fish go 'belly up' seems weird because I thought all fish did that. But nope, I normally find them stuck on the filter intake, or just rocking in the current. 

You should really invest in a little heater and get a Betta!! A betta would be perfect for a 5 gallon tank, but only if theres a heater in it. But a heater will only run you like ten bucks.


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## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

I'm sorry for your loss. Unfortunately, that definitely wasn't ich, or at least not *just* ich. It looks primarily to me like it was a fin rot or some other fungal problem. While Pimafix is an antifungal, it was far too weak to treat an infection which was so far progressed. Although you don't have a water test kit, it seems pretty certain that this problem was brought on by poor water quality.

I'm really sorry if this sounds harsh. It's not meant to be, I know that you were completely misinformed by your fish store and I commend you for being so receptive to help and suggestions once you found this resource. I just thought you'd appreciate knowing so you can prevent it from happening again. 

As for other fish- if you don't plan on getting a heater your choices are somewhat limited. However, it doesn't mean you can't get some very cool fish. What you need is a small, subtropical or coldwater fish. Personally, I think killifish are incredibly cool, and rather addictive. Most stay very small, many are incredibly colorful and they are ridiculously hardy. For example, here's a species that I keep: http://www.killi.co.uk/speciesProfile/Aphyosemion/gabunense/. Most of the algae eating shrimp also do well in colder water, so you could add some colorful Red Cherry Shrimp if you wanted as well. Another good candidate would be the Paradise fish. They are related to bettas and are also very hardy.

My suggestion would be to completely disinfect your tank and then to read up on the nitrogen cycle of aquariums, which we refer to as "cycling". This will be the key to starting a happy, healthy tank. You'll also need a good liquid test kit before getting your next fish, as this is how you will monitor the water and make sure there aren't any water quality issues like this time.


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## candapandaa (Jul 23, 2008)

Thank you both for your direct answers! I don't need to have the truth skirted around, no , it's better to just hear that what I did was stupid, and I can accept that! haha. 

Anyway, I'm hoping that someone has a source for cleaning and cycling a tank after an infection. I really need a step by step guide so I don't mess up, just until i get used to doing these things. I need to know stuff like what to use to disinfect, how long i need to let it sit/scrub it, whether filter inserts should be changed, and a good way to clean rocks! All that kind of thing. 

Also, even though I dont have a heater, I would be willing to get one. I don't want to be limited in my choice. But yes...I'm looking for hardy, colorful fish! It'd be nice to have more than one...but I guess the annoying thing is that to have more than one in a small tank, they end up being tiny..is that right? Even if I could have three fish, that'd be good. I just remember being annoyed when I had 8 neon tetras with my mom, because I could hardly ever see them! Anyway, let me know!

Thanks again. [/u]


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## candapandaa (Jul 23, 2008)

And by the way...yes! Those Killifish are super cool! How many could I have in a 5 gallon?


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## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

Those killies- probably 1 male and 3 females would work well. They're not shy fish, so you'd probably see them a lot.

The problem with small fish is that many of the common ones are schooling fish- which means a proper group of them requires a larger aquarium. If you want to get a heater you could get a betta- which are really interesting fish. They're quite hardy and obviously easy to find. Dwarf puffers would work in a 5 gallon, if you're up for it. Unfortunately they're very sensitive fish and picky eaters, so they might not be the best ones to try right away, but it's a thought. 

IMHO I would get some killies, as they're much more rare and exotic than a betta, but also kinda hard to kill. I'm quite killifish obsessed right now though so I'm bias.


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