# Angelfish?



## Guber (Jan 29, 2009)

Would it be ok to have a single black angel in a 20 gallon? Or is 30 the minimum? I wasn't sure because most people say the websites aren't always correct and the site i was looking at said 30 is the minimum. Also, I've had 5 cherry barbs in my tank for about a week and a half. Ammonia and nitrites are still at 0 but every once in awhile when i check the ammonia will be at about .25 but then within a few hours it will be 0. Is that normal? Sorry for this long post but another question! If my params are fine etc would it be safe to get a couple of blue rams or even a couple of ghost shrimp if i can't get an angel?


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## JohnnyD44 (Dec 5, 2008)

has your tank been fully set up and cycled for a week and a half? or did you just set it up a week and a half ago? if it's the latter, you are probably still cycling which would explain your ammonia jump. have you done a water change since you noticed the spike? has it changes sinced tuesday?

as far as your angel fish....IMPO, a 20G is too small for a angel fish, espically if it's a 20L...angelfish enjoy taller tanks

until you figure out if you're still cycling, I'd hold off on any fish for right now. someone else will jump in here with some advice too!


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## Guber (Jan 29, 2009)

I had done a fishless cycle for nearly a full month before I added fish. Before I added fish I made sure ammonia and nitrites dropped to zero within 12 hours as well for 2 days in a row. How often should I be checking for ammonia in my tank?


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

hi
Angels fish would do well in a deep tank,
as long as your readings are stable and have been for a long time,then you could try
and keep some,once they pair off then any remainders should be removed.
i don't usually recomend angel fish to a new set up,as i feel IMHO they fair better
in a mature tank,however there are people who don't follow this and appear to not 
have had problems.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Guber said:


> I had done a fishless cycle for nearly a full month before I added fish. Before I added fish I made sure ammonia and nitrites dropped to zero within 12 hours as well for 2 days in a row. How often should I be checking for ammonia in my tank?


Adding fish to a tank increases the bioload; in other words, each new fish is contributing more ammonia, which the nitrosomonas bacteria have to convert into nitrite, and then the nitrobacter bacteria have to convert the nitrite to nbitrate. As your tank is new, it may be cycled for what is in it (or was in it) then, but the bacteria have not increased sufficiently to handle the extra bioload. However, these bacteria multiply very fast by fission, each bacterium splitting to form two new ones, so as long as the fish are slowly added over a period of severl days to weeks, the system can handle it. Once an adequate bacteria population is established, the biological equilibrium is easily maintained provided there are no sudden overloads like too many fish, gross overfeeding, or dead fish not removed.

The usual cycle is 2-3 weeks under acceptable conditions, that is, not overloading the system at any time. If you add fish gradually you shouldn't have any problems. I would continue testing for ammonia eadch time something is added (the next day). I would only test the nitrite once, and if it is OK I would keep an eye on the ammonia from then on. If the amonia doesn't spike again, the nitrite won't either, as far as I undersatand things. The gradual increase in nitrosomonas will cause a gradual increase in nitrobacter. Just keep the bioload steady and gradually increase it.

Previous posts re the angels are good, and I would second the opinion that they are not good fish to be adding to new tanks. Angels can grow large and I would tend to agree with the earlier post that a 20 is a bit cramped. They also fare better with plants (they live among plants and roots in nature and thus feel more safe in such surroundings) and you haven't said if you have plants or not. Rams (Papiliochromis ramirezi) would be fine, perhaps with a few corys or shrimp on the bottom. All of these would appreciate hiding places, plants and bogwood being ideal. Angels and rams (and corys) prefer soft and slightly acidic water. What is your pH, both in the tank and from the tap?


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## Guber (Jan 29, 2009)

I have Anachris, Java Fern, Java Moss and Anubias Nana growing in my tank at the moment. I was thinking about getting a couple of ghost shrimp for the bottom and a pair of rams as well. I just wanted to get an angelfish instead of the 2 rams, maybe a ram and an angel if i was able to, if not i'll just stick to the shrimp/rams and probably be finished. I just did my partial water change for the week earlier and my tank just read 6.6 and the water from the hose which i use since we have a water softener in the house looks like its at 7.6 or maybe a little higher. Also i just have a normal 20 gallon aqueon. no 20 long or anything special.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Guber said:


> I have Anachris, Java Fern, Java Moss and Anubias Nana growing in my tank at the moment. I was thinking about getting a couple of ghost shrimp for the bottom and a pair of rams as well. I just wanted to get an angelfish instead of the 2 rams, maybe a ram and an angel if i was able to, if not i'll just stick to the shrimp/rams and probably be finished. I just did my partial water change for the week earlier and my tank just read 6.6 and the water from the hose which i use since we have a water softener in the house looks like its at 7.6 or maybe a little higher. Also i just have a normal 20 gallon aqueon. no 20 long or anything special.


In that tank I would vote for the pair of rams, they are beautiful and will reward you with a spawning which is certainly fascinating to observe. Your tank pH is good for these fish and plants, very good. I read some posts about water softeners adding things to the water in order to soften it, sorry I can't remember if it was this forum or another, I belong to several and get mixed up. You might want to check into how your water softener works. The point in the other post if I remember it correctly was that the pH in the tank can suddenly change one way or the other, and of course you don't ever want that. Fish can adapt to slow changes over time, but not sudden shifts. Maybe start a new thread on water softeners and those who have experience can advise. I've fortunately never needed one as the water out of the tap is very soft and slightly acidic, ideal for SA fish.


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## Guber (Jan 29, 2009)

Yeah i think the rams look great. When i go to the pet store should i just request a male and female? I think our water softener adds sodium to the water or something like that. my Grandfather just tells me it 'softens' the water and makes the soap in the shower sud easier haha. So yeah i should start a new thread. Also i've asked before but have gotten no answer...Out of my 5 cherry barbs the smallest one swims in circles or chills in the corner in the same side of the tank...is he intimidated by being small or something? Cause the rest are always either out swimming by themselves...or grouped up swimming radically back and forth through my bubble wall, they especially do it after water changes.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Guber said:


> Yeah i think the rams look great. When i go to the pet store should i just request a male and female? I think our water softener adds sodium to the water or something like that. my Grandfather just tells me it 'softens' the water and makes the soap in the shower sud easier haha. So yeah i should start a new thread. Also i've asked before but have gotten no answer...Out of my 5 cherry barbs the smallest one swims in circles or chills in the corner in the same side of the tank...is he intimidated by being small or something? Cause the rest are always either out swimming by themselves...or grouped up swimming radically back and forth through my bubble wall, they especially do it after water changes.


Not sure about the barb, your tank is still cycling and it may be that or something else. Fish usually respond positively to a water change, more evidence that it is a good thing and necessary. 

On the rams, the male has slighty longer spines at the beginning of the dorsal fin (although in tank raised fish, which most seem to be now, this is not so obvious as it is in wild fish) and the female has a pink belly and will be a bit rounder. If your lfs is a proper aquarium store with knowledgeable staff they will know. If there are several in the tank, stand and watch them for several minutes and you will probably see that there are pairs; this is two fish (m & f) that tend to stay close, they will have the afore-mentioned differences, and the male will be driving others away if they get close. My lfs had a tank of rams the other day and watching them I spotted 4 or 5 pairs. If you see this, buy those two fish as they have already "paired' and will settle down nicely. But let your tank settle a bit more, it is still early and rams are not the easiest fish if things aren't just right. They are much more likely to survive if the tank is well established biologically; I'd recommend 6-8 weeks after you first put in fish.

I would certainly start that thread about water softeners if I were you; adding sodium to the water may be what was mentioned in the messages I saw a while ago somewhere. I'm pretty sure this does something to the buffering capacity, but I'm not a chemist. To be safe I'd want to know, and there are members here that understand this better than I do.


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## Guber (Jan 29, 2009)

Alright, Ever since I've got the barbs they've loved to swim back and forth through the bubbles so i hope they're ok and not retarded or something. I've had fish in the tank for about 2 weeks now after the 4 week cycle.


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

Guber said:


> Would it be ok to have a single black angel in a 20 gallon? Or is 30 the minimum? I wasn't sure because most people say the websites aren't always correct and the site i was looking at said 30 is the minimum. Also, I've had 5 cherry barbs in my tank for about a week and a half. Ammonia and nitrites are still at 0 but every once in awhile when i check the ammonia will be at about .25 but then within a few hours it will be 0. Is that normal? Sorry for this long post but another question! If my params are fine etc would it be safe to get a couple of blue rams or even a couple of ghost shrimp if i can't get an angel?


 What are the dimensions of your 20g? If this is a tall tank, one angel should be fine. I would suggest you reconsider the strain you are selecting. DD blacks are quite fragile for starters. Stick with gold, zebra, marble or koi.

You can add a pair of blue rams but forget any shrimps if you want the angelfish.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

I would keep in mind should you decide to try blue rams, That they prefer soft acidic water and temperatures of 82 to 84 degrees. In my expierience with them, They are not fish that adapt well to parameters much over Ph of 7.0 and Kh of much over five.Many retailers will advertise these fish as Tank raised but this is NOT the norm. Most of these fish are shipped from fish farms in the far east, and many are subjected to hormone injections and swim in waters that are loaded with antibiotics while awaiting shipping. Once removed from this water ,and the added stress from shipping ,and acclimation to dealer tanks and then yours or mine, many of these fish succumb. 
I would suggest frequent water changes (twice a week) temp84 degrees,oxygen rich water,variety of prepared foods along with frozen foods as well And NitrAtes below20.


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## Guber (Jan 29, 2009)

Hm I usually keep my temp at around 80 for the barbs I have now, I'm sure I have plenty of oxygen, my bubbles are going nonstop on high. I have flake food and I'm going to go buy some brine shrimp or bloodworms soon i think, not sure which i should get. Also I've heard fish can/will eat veggies? If so, what kind and how often should i do that? 

I think my tank dimensions are 24'' L x 13'' W x 17'' H


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## Guber (Jan 29, 2009)

I decided I'm not going to go with an angel because i'm pretty sure i obviously don't have a big enough tank for one. I seem to get brown algae on my glass pretty often, i'll get a small spot and the snails will take care of it but then it will show up elsewhere the next few days etc. I still definitely want to get a pair of blue rams. I recently did research on oto's and they seem like quite the entertainment. For a stock how does this sound:

Cherry Barb x 5 (Have these now)
Blue Ram x 2
Oto x 2 (3?) (or more?)

And maybe a pair of ghost shrimp..


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Guber said:


> I decided I'm not going to go with an angel because i'm pretty sure i obviously don't have a big enough tank for one. I seem to get brown algae on my glass pretty often, i'll get a small spot and the snails will take care of it but then it will show up elsewhere the next few days etc. I still definitely want to get a pair of blue rams. I recently did research on oto's and they seem like quite the entertainment. For a stock how does this sound:
> 
> Cherry Barb x 5 (Have these now)
> Blue Ram x 2
> ...


This looks fine to me. 2 otos will be OK at first, you can always add another if the algae warrants it. Remember, they need algae to feed on or may not last, as someone earlier mentioned and this is my experience too.


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## Guber (Jan 29, 2009)

Yeah and I know if algae supply becomes short they will eat fresh zuchini and possibly flake food right? Also I think i may be getting false ammonia readings because right after i did a water change it said i had .50...I read that using Prime may cause this? I do use prime to treat my water.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Guber said:


> Yeah and I know if algae supply becomes short they will eat fresh zuchini and possibly flake food right? Also I think i may be getting false ammonia readings because right after i did a water change it said i had .50...I read that using Prime may cause this? I do use prime to treat my water.


I'm not familiar with "Prime" but assuming it is a water conditioner I wouldn't expect it to increase the ammonia. Perhaps others have experience with this.

Otos will eat alternates to algae when hungry, but as they spend all their time grazing algae from the plants, wood, tank walls, etc, they'll feel pretty isolated without any algae. I've always managed to have enough algae to keep them busy, but I think others have said that they can waste away without it.

Your tank is a 20g, was running 1 month (fishless cycle), then just over a week since you added 5 cherry barbs. As long as you don't overfeed, the ammonia should be down now i think.


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## Guber (Jan 29, 2009)

Yeah i've had the barbs for a couple weeks now. When would it be safe to get a pair of otos?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Guber said:


> Yeah i've had the barbs for a couple weeks now. When would it be safe to get a pair of otos?


When your tank is billogically settled. Each time you add fish the bacteria have to multiply accordingly. Monitor your ammonia and nitrite, and when they are 0 you're balanced (assuming something doesn't upset it, like a dead fish or overfeeding). Add the two otos together, but wait until the tank is again balanced before adding the next fish (rams I think it was). A new tank takes 2-3 weeks to first balance, but once it is, it is only a matter of not adding to the bioload beyond what it can manage.


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

Byron said:


> I'm not familiar with "Prime" but assuming it is a water conditioner I wouldn't expect it to increase the ammonia. Perhaps others have experience with this.


Prime is indeed a water conditioner that removes ammonia, chlorine and chloramine while detoxifying nitrite and nitrate as it claims. This product is widely used by aquarists in USA and Canada and has gotten plenty of good reviews. I just received my own from Canada sent by a friend. It smells of sulfur though which it naturally is.


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## Guber (Jan 29, 2009)

Ok cool then i'll give it another week and hopefully all will be balanced by this upcoming saturday which will be the next time i'll have a ride to petsmart any-hoo. What do you all reccomend to get first? The pair of rams or the pair of oto's? I have quite a handful of brown algae on the back of my tank and some up front, as well as what looks like a good thick layer of it on some of my decor.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Guber said:


> Ok cool then i'll give it another week and hopefully all will be balanced by this upcoming saturday which will be the next time i'll have a ride to petsmart any-hoo. What do you all reccomend to get first? The pair of rams or the pair of oto's? I have quite a handful of brown algae on the back of my tank and some up front, as well as what looks like a good thick layer of it on some of my decor.


The otos first (you have some algae to start them on), the rams second because they are sensitive and the more mature the tank the less chance of loss with fish like rams.


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