# Confused about cycling and ammonia levels



## paxt0n

Hello,

I have read many of the stickies about cycling and setting up a new aquarium, but I am still confused by the varying information I am receiving from different sources.

I went to a fish store the other night, to get some starter fish and was told:

1. Do 50% water changes every week for the first two months.
2. Feed VERY little food, every other day. After the first two months you can feed them every day.
3. There should be NO ammonia in your tank, because the Ph level of our water makes it even more deadly (it's around 7.2/7.4)


I've read a book about freshwater aquariums that says nothing about doing water changes while your tank is "setting up", and it says that ammonia may spike to 4.0 before it starts going down.

The information provided in the API Master Test Kit also says that ammonia may spike to 4.0 before going down.

The Nitrogen Cycle care sheet from Petco says that Ammonia should stay below .06 during the first two weeks and be zero after that.

I've also read in other places NOT to use any chemicals to stabilize ammonia levels, because this will supposedly DRAMATICALLY slow down the nitrogen cycle of the tank.

So, my questions are:

1. What is an acceptable ammonia level, in a new tank, with starter fish? (I would prefer not to kill any fish for the purpose of setting up my aquarium)

2. Should I do ANY water changes during the "set up" period?

3. Should I use chemicals to stabilize the ammonia?

Thanks for your help! :-D

Brian


----------



## Kelso

Youre better off using pure ammonia. It doesnt harm any fish that way. It takes less time than cycling by fish as well. You add pure concentrate, and check back every day to see what the levels are. You keeping adding ammonia as well. By about three weeks, when you add ammonia and it spikes and drops down to zero within a day, youre ready. That's the simple explanation. Look up fishless cycling for a more thorough explanation.


----------



## paxt0n

I already have fish in the aquarium.

By the way, the Ammonia level is between 1.0 and 2.0 this morning (can't tell the difference between the shades of green)

Nitrates and Nitrites were at 0 three days ago. I'll check them again tonight.

Any answers to my questions, with the understanding that I already have fish in the tank, would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## 1077

What size tank? andhow many and what type of starter fish have you got or planning to get?
Easiest way to Do this without harming fish,daily testing,frequent water changes etc, is to use one or two small uncooked raw shrimp (cocktail) Depending on tank size. 
Place the piece of shrimp in the toe section of a pair of nylon stockings with a rock to hold it down. Toss this into the aquarium and leave it for three weeks. This piece of shrimp will feed the bacteria as it decays. after three weeks,test the tank to see that ammonia and nitrites are zero and that there are nitrAtes (prolly high nitrAtes) if levels read zero for ammonia and nitrites and nitrAtes are present, Then simply perform 60 to 70 percent water change just before you add a few (four or five )SMALL fish or one or two medium size fish. Begin changing 25 percent of the water each week from then on. NOTE. tank may begin to smell a little during the process but no fish are harmed and as mentioned , no daily testing or water changes to reduce toxins that harm the fish.
There are a couple other methods but as stated,, the above in my view,is easiest unless you know someone who has a disease free existing aquarium running and has been running for some time.
If this is the case,, you could ask them to let you have some of their filter material(ie) portion of pad,sponge ,or floss. Stick this in the filter of your tank taking care to keep the material wet in AQURIUM water while transporting to your tank. In this way,, you could add a few small fish ,depending on tank size ,and the borrowed material will jumpstart your (cycling)process and be much less harmful to the few SMALL fish you place in the tank for starter fish. Feed fish sparingly and change water anytime ammonia and or nitrites climb above.05. With borrowed material (cycling) can be done more quickly. Do be aware that the bacteria develops in direct proportion to available load(fish)in the tank. Adding too many fish,too large of fish,and overfeeding will cause ammonia and nitrites to spike for the bacteria will not be able to develop fast enough. ALWAYS best to stock slowly and wait a week between adding fish. Should give you plenty of time to research the fish that interest you to ensure that the fish all enjoy same water parameters,same pH,and are compatible with each other. Hope some of this helps and please excuse poor spelling and or punctuation. I ain't inclined to go back and fix it.:roll:


----------



## Angel079

Welcome Brian, I will try pick this apart for you and hopfully answer all questions.

What happens during the necessary 'cycling' of tanks is that ammonia will be transfered into nitrite by bacteria. Ammonia is toxic to fish and will lead to death, Nitrite are also bad for fish but its not as toxic as Ammonia.
So high levels of either one will be bad news in the tank either way, the best way to control this in the process of cycling is daily water tests with kits such as offered from API. Nitrates should ideally be kept below 40ppm, above that I'd do w/c. 
A normal 20-30% w/c weekly should keep these levels in check, I say should because they CAN still peak abouve tolerated levels and then a addtional w/c would be nessesary to not harm your fish.
Nitrate levels are also significantly reduced by having a well planted tank, as the plants will consume nitrates. Now I don't know if you already have plants in there or if you would consider getting some fast growing plants to help you tank to start and also have a nicely planted tank for the future?
When choosing to cycle with fish, it is important to use hardy fish, such as Zebra Danio's for example. What fish did you get, how many, what size tank do you have?
And no you do not want to add chemicals, while your ecosystem is trying to built up a natrual bacteria system to make it a stable environment for the future any add chemicals can slow this process down and/ or harm it.


----------



## 1077

#$%^[email protected] By the time I finished my previous post you already answered MY question. You have fish in the tank .Depending on numbers and size of tank, It may require daily or twice daily water changes to reduce ammonia levels. The levels you posted are DEADLY as the API test kit booklet clearly states. At this point,you can help yourself by not overfeeding the fish and by testing daily to see that levels do not rise above .05 for the next three weeks. Be sure and use a dechlorinator such as PRIME or AMQUEL+ that clearly say on the bottle that they detoxify CHLORINE,CHLORAMINES,and AMMONIA. And try not to add water that is too cold or too warm to the aquarium/.


----------



## Angel079

I'm with you 1077...You type & type and then there new posts already by the time your done.

YES def do w/c this AM as your Ammonia is this high. Then as I said , keep checking it daily.

Sill: What tanks size do you have, what fish are in it and how many?


----------



## Twistersmom

Hello! I agree with 1077.

Every one has their own opinion on how to cycle a tank. The people that say it is fine to let ammonia hit 4 ppm, are the people that are using the fish only to cycle, and do not care about the well being of the fish.

This is how I cycle a tank, if it can not be seeded with cycled filter media.
***test once or twice daily.
***Water changes once or twice daily, if needed to keep ammonia and nitrites under .25 ppm.
***Use Prime.
***Feed Little and only once a day, while getting readings for either ammonia or nitrites.

(most cycle fish, "hardy fish" can handle ammonia/nitrites close to .25, other sensitive fish, this would be too much.)


----------



## paxt0n

Wow!

Thanks for your replies. I had no idea that 2.0 ppm ammonia would be deadly. That is why I'm confused. The API kit says ammonia could peak at 4.0 during setup and so does the book I read. Neither said that level was deadly. 

So I should do water changes, as needed, to keep ammonia and nitrate below .25?

I've been using a dechlorinator, but nothing for ammonia. Should I use something that treats ammonia?

I have a 10 gal with a male betta, 4 white cloud(?) minnows, a zebra danio and two ghost shrimp. 

It is probably too many fish for starting, but I had the betta before I even got the 10 gallon, then I got three zebra danios. The betta killed two of them, then I got the minnows and shrimp. The betta hasn't killed anymore fish yet...

I am leaving work now and will do a water change as soon as I get home. 

Doing the water changes isn't going to mess with the cycle, though?


----------



## Byron

paxt0n said:


> Wow!
> 
> Thanks for your replies. I had no idea that 2.0 ppm ammonia would be deadly. That is why I'm confused. The API kit says ammonia could peak at 4.0 during setup and so does the book I read. Neither said that level was deadly.
> 
> So I should do water changes, as needed, to keep ammonia and nitrate below .25?
> 
> I've been using a dechlorinator, but nothing for ammonia. Should I use something that treats ammonia?
> 
> I have a 10 gal with a male betta, 4 white cloud(?) minnows, a zebra danio and two ghost shrimp.
> 
> It is probably too many fish for starting, but I had the betta before I even got the 10 gallon, then I got three zebra danios. The betta killed two of them, then I got the minnows and shrimp. The betta hasn't killed anymore fish yet...
> 
> I am leaving work now and will do a water change as soon as I get home.
> 
> Doing the water changes isn't going to mess with the cycle, though?


The effect ammonia has on fish depends partly on the pH and temperature; the higher the pH (more basic or alkaline) the worse ammonia is at lower levels, and worsens with higher temperatures as well. For instance, at a pH of 7.0 and a temp of 77F, an ammonia reading of 3.5 is considered dangerous and requiring immediate action (partial water change, etc). At a temp of 68 this can be at 5.0. At a pH of 7.5 and a temp of 77F, 1.2 ammonia is dangerous. In acidic water (pH below 7) it is basically harmless because ammonia converts to ammonium which is not toxic like ammonia is. But there is still the nitrite at the second stage.

I second TM's advice, monitor ammonia and nitrite daily and do a pwc of 50% if levels exceed .25 for either. Use a good water conditioner; those that detoxify ammonia (like Prime) do so by changing it to ammonium which as I said is harmless. But again, the nitrite is still going to spike.

When you do these pwc, just siphon out water from the top half, and refill with conditioned water. Don't vacuum the substrate as you might remove the bacteria. Bacteria colonize all hard surfaces in the aquarium; they are not in the water. So not cleaning the filter and substrate is advisable until the tank is cycled.

You certainly have too many fish in a new tank, but that is a done deal, so now you can only make life easier for them (and hopefully save them). Ammonia and nitrite both cause internal damage that may not surface for weeks or months.

Byron.


----------



## Hawkian

My 32g finished cycling about a month ago after a solid month of cycling. I'm surprised that your test kit did not mention _when_ to do a water change. I have a nutrafin test kit for ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates, and I checked levels daily for the first month and they remained very low. During that time I did a weekly water change (20%). When ammonia levels started rising above 0.6 (yeah you read right) I would do an immediate water change (20%). Same for nitrites over 0.3. The nutrafin test kits clearly state: "If the result is above 0.3 (nitrites)... immediately chage 20% of the water". I realize that every company may have a different approach to the inexact science but at least I had guidelines to go by. 

Now you might say I was overzealous there but the cycle took its course and finished without ever having hazardous levels of toxins in the water which was important for me because I was too impatient to go with fishless cycling.

With a 10g, I would definitely not shy away from the daily water changes and would probably up them to 30% because the ecosystem is smaller and toxins are more contained and concentrated and are more likely to rise faster - I think (this is not scientific on my part: it's guesswork). I don't think you can hinder the cycle with water changes... but you can definitely cause havoc in your tank by adding chemicals to it to control the ammonia levels.


----------



## paxt0n

Thanks again for all of your advice. 

Pardon my ignorance, but I still feel like I'm getting conflicting information. :???:

Some of you say DON'T use any chemicals to mess with the nitrogen cycle, yet some of you suggested Prime, which "gets rid of nitrites, nitrates and ammonia".

I bought some Prime, did a 50% water change and added the correct amount of Prime for a 10g. I tested the water shortly afterward and these are the results:

Ph: ~7.3 (same as every time I've tested it)
Ammonia: .25 (.25 is the lowest level above 0 - 0 is yellow and it progresses to dark green from there, so it could be somewhere between 0 and .25 - I don't really like the color crap. I can barely tell the difference between some of the shades, and the only major difference is between 0 and the next level.)
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
(I have not had any nitrite or nitrate show up yet.)

Is the ammonia showing up actually ammonium, as converted by Prime, or do I still have an ammonia problem?

...or does the Prime take awhile to work?

By the way, you can scratch the Danio off the list of fish. For whatever reason, my betta (I think I might name him Killer, or Dahmer) does not like danios, because he killed all three of them. I didn't actually witness him doing so, but I'm assuming that is what happened. I found the last two dead with their guts torn open. I'm assuming he not only killed them, but started to eat them. Or did he not kill them and I have another issue going on?

He still chases after the white clouds, but they seem to be much faster than the danios, because they can easily dart away from him.

Anyway, I'm ready for more advice. Do I need to do more water changes until the ammonia is undetectable? :dunno:


----------



## 1077

Prime should be used anytime you perform a water change. Products,and or chemicals other than water conditioner are not needed. Prime detoxifys harmful ammonia from chloramines in tapwater, and renders it relatively harmless ammonium which will still feed the (cycle) Water conditioners don't detoxify the ammonia for much longer than twelve to 24 hours and in tanks with fish,, Ammonia is produced constantly through respiration and or poop and urine. This is why we need healthy biological filter with colony of bacteria present to eat the ammonia produced by fish (cycling). If it were otherwise,, we would not need filters holding this good bacteria but would simply add a few drops of Prime or other water conditioner each day. 
So long as there are fish in your tank ,I would highly recommend using water conditioner at each water change.
The booklet that came with the API test kit does say that any levels of ammonia can be stressful. If one reads the entire paragraph with regards to ammonia test and results. And depending on species,some suffer more quickly than others, while others do not present symptoms for some days,or weeks. 
I would try and keep levels below0.25 with water changes.


----------



## paxt0n

I did another water change this morning, using Prime, and the result was a very light green. Lighter than .25, but not yellow, which indicates 0. The API booklet also states that ammonium will still test as ammonia, so could this just be the ammonium showing up on the test? If not, do I need to keep doing 50% changes until it is down to 0? How do any of you get test results below .25 and above 0? What test kit will give you something better than .25 gaps?


----------



## Byron

paxt0n said:


> I did another water change this morning, using Prime, and the result was a very light green. Lighter than .25, but not yellow, which indicates 0. The API booklet also states that ammonium will still test as ammonia, so could this just be the ammonium showing up on the test? If not, do I need to keep doing 50% changes until it is down to 0? How do any of you get test results below .25 and above 0? What test kit will give you something better than .25 gaps?


The Prime is handling the ammonia, it detoxifies it to ammonium and this will still show as ammonia with test kits.

Monitor the nitrite, this tank is cycling so nitrite will start to rise and peak then fall to zero. The daily pwc will be critical with nitrite as Prime does not detoxify nitrite (to my knowledge). I would not worry about .25 ammonia because Prime is handling that, however, watch the fish and if signs of stress appear do a 50% pwc.

1077 may add something, I won't disagree if he does.

Byron.


----------



## paxt0n

The bottle of Prime says:

Removes
Chlorine, Chloramine, Ammonia

Detoxifies Nitrite & Nitrate

Provides Slime Coat

I was in a rush this morning and left the ammonia test in the test tube. When I got home from work, it was yellow, which indicates a level of 0. Is there a reason it would change to zero?

Also, I just tested again and got the following results:

Ph: 7.2
Ammonia: .25-.5(?) I have a hard time with the color differences. I'm going to attach a picture of this, so you can see it
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0+? (see picture - I put the card upside down, so the lower levels are one the bottom - it has clearly been yellow before, but now it seems to be orange-ish..would it make sense to never have any nitrites, but have nitrates start to show up?)​


----------



## 1077

Yes leaving the test solution set for longer than instructions indicate,will alter the results (inaccurate). Not leaving the test solution set long enough (5 min) will render results(inaccurate) .As stated before,,Keep ammonia levels no higher than .25.
Feed the fish sparingly,Take approx dime size amount of food and crush it to near powder with your fingers. Feed approx one half this amount ,ONCE every other day. Feeding more,,will cause ammonia levels to rise.
If you see green water in the test vial ,and you have fish in the tank,,change some water. Some might suggest that water changes slow the cycle but so long as fish are in the tank and breathing this won't be the case. I cannot add much more than I have at this point. With fish in the tank during the maturing or (cycling process),, your biggest enemy is too much food or too many fish producing ammonia that cannot be processed,, for there has yet to develop the bacteria (good kind) in sufficent mass,, to process the ammonia. In approx a week to ten days ,perhaps longer,, the ammonia will begin to drop and nitrites will begin to rise. Same thing applies with respect to water changes when levels of nitrites call for water changes as per instructions from the API test kit.The API kit is far more accurate to use than many others and is used by the majority of folks keeping fish. It is also easy to use. We can make it harder if we choose.


----------



## paxt0n

Thank you for making things VERY clear, for this VERY new aquarist. I really appreciate it! :notworthy:

I will follow your directions and let you know how things end up, once the tank is cycled.

I do have ONE more question, though. :roll:

I understand the instructions about the flake food, but I feed pellets to the betta. Is one pellet every other day an acceptable amount, or is that not enough?

OK, make that two more questions. 

Should I be using enough Prime to treat the entire 10 gallons every time I do a water change, even if I do a 25% change once or twice a day?

Thanks again!!

:BIGhappy:


----------



## Twistersmom

Your betta will be fine with only one pellet every other day.

Since your tank is very unstable right now, in the cycling stage, I would treat the entire 10 gals with prime.
Once the tank is cycled, zero ammonia and nitrites, treating only new water will be fine.


----------



## long time fish luver

hey im new to the forum how do u stary a conversation
im sorry im interupting


----------



## Byron

long time fish luver said:


> hey im new to the forum how do u stary a conversation
> im sorry im interupting


I've PM'd in response. Byron.


----------



## stephanieleah

By the color of green your ammonia test came out I'd definitely do a good water change. 

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this: I'd check the ammonia level of your tap water (I have about 1ppm of ammonia in my tap water and it altered my test results) but if you're using the ammonia treatment (prime) it's probably ammonium...harmless to fish and beneficial to plants. 

I agree about the frequent water changes...I didn't do fishless cycling (practically fishless, though) and I checked my water every day. Doing it this way (and changing water as needed) I never had an ammonia spike or a nitrite spike. (I also used Smart Start live bacteria and it worked wonders).


----------



## paxt0n

I hadn't checked my tap water for ammonia, so thanks for suggesting that. I did just test it, though, and the result was 0. 

Not surprisingly, I'm still a little confused about the ammonia level in my tank. :demented:

I believe it has only tested at zero once, ever since then it has had some green in it. So, if the level is around .25, it is probably the ammonium and I shouldn't worry about changing the water?

I don't know if I'm color blind or what, but I have a really hard time determining which shade my water matches on the card, especially the smalll difference between .25 and .50. 0 is obvious, because it is yellow. 1.0 is obvious, because it is green. The two in between are so close (to my eyes, anyway) that I can barely tell a difference...


----------



## paxt0n

I just did a full water test again.

Ph: ~7.2
Ammonia: .25-.5
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0

The ammonia seems to never really change. I have done about four 50% water changes and get the same result for ammonia immediately after each water change (using Prime) and later the same day. I'm guessing/hoping that this is just the ammonium.

Are you referring to the Kordon Smart Start set with the two bottles? I was going to get this, but I read on one of the bottles that it is not compatible with a certain kind of testing kit. I asked someone at Petco if the API kit was that kind and their answer was "you don't need that, just get regular water conditioner" (i.e. "I don't know"), so I got Prime, since it was recommended. Now I know that API is a salicylate-based test, I could have gotten the Smart Start. Can I use Smart Start and Prime, or should I use one or the other. I'm willing to do anything to get the nitrogen cycle started.


----------



## Byron

paxt0n said:


> I just did a full water test again.
> 
> Ph: ~7.2
> Ammonia: .25-.5
> Nitrite: 0
> Nitrate: 0
> 
> The ammonia seems to never really change. I have done about four 50% water changes and get the same result for ammonia immediately after each water change (using Prime) and later the same day. I'm guessing/hoping that this is just the ammonium.
> 
> Are you referring to the Kordon Smart Start set with the two bottles? I was going to get this, but I read on one of the bottles that it is not compatible with a certain kind of testing kit. I asked someone at Petco if the API kit was that kind and their answer was "you don't need that, just get regular water conditioner" (i.e. "I don't know"), so I got Prime, since it was recommended. Now I know that API is a salicylate-based test, I could have gotten the Smart Start. Can I use Smart Start and Prime, or should I use one or the other. I'm willing to do anything to get the nitrogen cycle started.


I have used (and thus will recommend) Seachem's "Stability" which is 100% live bacteria. There are some other biological supplements, just make sure they are 100% bacteria and not chemicals. They jump-start the bacteria. And yes, they can be used with Prime (the bacteria ones); Prime detoxifies ammonia by changing it to ammonium which bacteria will use.

Byron.


----------



## stephanieleah

What seems to be generally available at both of my fish stores is Tetra Safe Start (not smart start what i said before). And by the way, I've learned to always do my research BEFORE going to the pet store, ESPECIALLY Petco/PetSmart. They never really know but they sound like they know. My LFS will sell me anything without telling me anything about the fish. They're rarely helpful, I try to know what I'm looking for (exactly) before I go. Believe me, I've learned this the hard way. And the Cycle, non-refridgerated cycling solution never did anything for my tank. 

The way I use the Safe Start is that I dump half the bottle in the tank and half of it in the filter so it passes right through the bio filter. I don't know if it makes a difference or not. Or you might want to save half the bottle and add it a few days later because the bacteria will only survive if there's enough ammonia and nitrite to sustain them.

I know what you mean about the shades of green...i find the same thing between the nitrate levels. Frustrating.

Water changes don't hurt, so if you want t o get that ammonia level down (even if it is ammonium), why not do one? Do you have live plants in it? As Byron has mentioned before, plants absorb ammonium as well as some ammonia so live plants are always helpful with establishing a safe environment for fish. (Not to mention, when the plants grow, they provide lots of shelter for fish and other creatures). 

Hope this helps, and be thankful that you can't tell the difference between .25ppm and .5ppm...at least it's that low! (I remember the time I tested a quarantine tank with my pleco and was horrified when for the first time the ammonia was a clear dark green, definitely all the way to 1ppm).


----------



## paxt0n

Thanks again for the suggestions and help.

Not surprisingly, the Petco down the street from me did not have Seachem Stability. So, I started looking at other ones. One was Nite Out, which said it contained all of the bacteria needed (all the nitro/nitra bacteria). I don't remember what the other one was called (maybe Smart Balance, or something like that), but it was what you were supposed to use before the Nite Out. 

I made the unwise decision of asking someone. Of course, she didn't know, so she asked someone else. He said "Oh yeah. We use that stuff, but it smells like rotten eggs. We only do it at night cuz it stinks the whole store up so bad." He then recommended Stress Zyme or the "brand name", which is what he called the Nutrafin. 

I ended up getting Nutrafin Cycle. Even though my aquarium isn't brand new, I started with the Day 1 dosing and put the Day 2 dosing in this evening.

Ever since my last water change, I've been getting the exact same test results, which were the same before the water change, too....

The ammonia is staying a very, very light green and nitrites and nitrates are zero.

I'm assuming, if I got the right stuff, that the bacteria will start "eating" the ammonia and create nitrites, which is when I should see the nitrites start to go up?

I have noticed that the water looks great and so do the fish, so everything appears good. I'm just confused, as usual, about what is going on, since nothing is changing...


----------



## paxt0n

By the way...

I see a lot of people mentioning LFS. What is that? An abbreviation for a store I dont know about?
I'm originally from the Midwest, but in Seattle now. The only stores I'm familiar with are Petco and PetSmart, although I did come across a Super Petz Warehouse in Augusta, GA. Everything was SOOOO cheap there. That's when I realized how much of a rip-off Petco and PetSmart are...

Ive been to The Fish Store here. Not sure if it is a chain or not. I'd like to find a local place, but Petco is only about five blocks from me.


----------



## Angel079

LFS is simply an abbreviation for local fish store. So no specific chain.
Hey be blessed I don't even have Petco & Petsmart around me lol. Just search online and keep your eyes open while out & about to find a store. What I found VERY helpful and good in the past is these little bitty stores operated directly by owners that are specialized in fish only, I pref them over the big chain's any day of the week (they also seem to have a healthier fish selection IMO).


----------



## Angel079

Paxton, looking through some fish classifieds here for stores for myself, came across this one, maybe it close enough to you bluesierraexotics.com


----------



## billswin

deleted sorry


----------



## paxt0n

I thought you meant my thread was deleted. LOL

I'm getting ready to test the water again, then I'm sure I'll be full of questions!


----------



## paxt0n

*So...now what?*

I just tested my water again. Here are the results:

Ammonia: <.25?
Ph: ~7.2
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: ~5.0

I'm attaching a picture of the ammonia test again, because I can't tell which color it matches. The Nitrate color is definitely orange and not yellow. I tested it a second time and got the same result. 

I haven't done a water change in at least three days, during which time I added the appropriate amount of Nutrafin Cycle each day.

The Ammonia level has been the same since _before_ I did the last water change. 

I'm confused about the lack of Nitrites and the presence of Nitrates. The Nutrafin says that it contains the bacteria that digests ammonia and nitrates, so I guess this may be why I'm getting a Nitrate reading? If so, then I'm confused about why the Ammonia level hasn't changed.

:frustrated:

Comments and suggestions are welcome!


----------



## 1077

I am not confused at all. Many of these bacteria in a bottle products are little more than dead, ammonia producing organics and is why I and many others don't use them. Is also possibly the reason you are seeing low nitrate levels. 
This process is slow and deliberate (cycling) You must have patience. Ammonia levels will fall to zero,Nitrites will rise and fall to zero, When ammonia and nitrites test zero for five or six consecutive days then your tank will have matured(cycled) 
Everyone want's it to go quickly and some resort to all manner of chemicals and potions in this effort. Then ,all bets are off as to what test results truly reveal and or how long it might take for the process to render the tank ready for slow addition of few fish.
You have fish in the tank,change the water as needed for reducing ammonia and nitrites,let the process happen and don't stress.


----------



## Angel079

I can only support 1077, HAVE PATIENCE. I know it can be a long and tiring seeming process, but it needs time proper w/c and as little chemicals as possible. The more different chems you add the more you keep upsetting your newly and instable system.


----------



## paxt0n

Why am I not surprised that you aren't confused 1077? :lol:

So, the Nutrafin will be returned to Petco, since it apparently didn't do anything. Although, I will say that the water is crystal clear. This could be from the reduced feeding though, I guess. 

Along with being impatient, I am finding it hard to stick to the small amount of feeding every other day. I have been feeding my betta one pellet, every other day. He is to the point where he will jump out of the water at anything hovering above it, in an attempt to get food. (I've been using a 5ml syringe from work (a dosing syringe for childrens Rx medication) to extract water for the water testing - he jumps up and nips at it...he'll do the same to my finger.)

I have a feeding ring for the flake food and one of my poor ghost shrimps "flew" up to it as soon as the flakes hit the water. He clung to the bottom of it, grabbed a piece of flake and proceeded to shove it in his mouth as quickly as possible. (It was interesting to see the digestion taking place, after he ate it, btw.) I accidentally dropped an extra betta pellet and it sunk to the bottom. The other shrimp bolted over to it and frantically dug it up from between the rocks to eat it. 

One of my minnows is quit a bit larger than the other three and he seems to hoard the food from them, too. 

So, I will BE PATIENT and wait for the ammonia levels to rise, then fall as the nitrites rise, etc. AND try to ignore the "I'M STARVING" messages from my fish/shrimp.

As stated previously, I should still do water changes to keep ammonia and nitrites under .25, correct? (Speaking of ammonia levels, based on the picture provided, am I reading it correctly? It looks to me like it is lighter than the .25 mark, but obviously not yellow.)

Also, should I really be using Prime, since it is more than just a water conditioner. It also "detoxifies nitrites and nitrates." Don't I need nitrites and nitrates as part of the "normal" nitrogen cycle?

So, in summary, since I tend to "blab" a lot:

1. Should I continue water changes to keep ammonia and nitrite below .25? How much water should I change at a time?

2. What do you think the ammonia reading is, from the picture in my last post?

3. Should I continue using Prime, or get a simple water conditioner?

4. Should I continue with one pellet, every other day, for the betta and a very small amount of crushed flakes for the others?


:thankyou:


----------



## 1077

I would continue just as you are. Small 20 percent water changes if ammonia rises above .25. 
I would always use prime for water changes, It won't interfere with the process. Your feeding sounds good to me. It is difficult to see fish beg. While it is difficult to overfeed fish ,,it is easy to overfeed the capabilities of the bacteria in young tanks and thus create toxic levels of ammonia . Slow and steady is the best approach with just enough food to keep the fish hungry. Once the tank matures,then you can feed approx same amount, ot tiny bit more ,once each day, or twice perhaps. I feed my fish once a day and sometimes once every two days. Never new anyone who lost fish by feeding once a day with the exception of fry(babies).


----------



## paxt0n

THANK YOU!

:yourock:


----------



## billswin

I started my cycle the same day as yours pax, I also am using prime and API test kit. I have been doing water changes every other day to keep my ammonia below 1.0 and adding prime daily not just at water changes as this will keep the tank safe I was told.

However I went to my LFS today and they stated to NEVER change the water during the cycle process unless the fish are in great distress. He said they fish should be fine as long as they started the from the beginning of the cycle process. He also said to only use prime when the water is changed. This is so confusing imo. I have 4 African Cichlids and don't want to see them die, but everyone has totatlly different opinions it crazy.

I am now torn! To water change or not to water change, to add prime daily or not to add prime daily.


----------



## paxt0n

bill: I've done a few 50% water changes to get my ammonia level down, but haven't done any for about 5 days now. I've been keeping the ammonia down by feeding very sparingly.

I only added Prime when I did water changes, but I added the amount needed to treat the entire tank, not just the part I was changing.

I'm obviously not the expert here, but I think I have learned that the best thing to do is "fish-less" cycling, if possible. Otherwise, start with VERY few HARDY fish. 

If your levels are staying high, then I would certainly keep doing water changes, as opposed to killing your fish. 

From my little bit of experience, I have learned not to take what your LFS says too seriously, especially if it is a corporate chain. They have no idea what they are talking about. 

The MAIN goal is to keep the water safe for the fish, during the cycling process. So, if that means doing water changes every day, then do them....in my opinion.

I'm sure others can provide better advice, but I would listen to the folks on here, over your LFS.


----------



## paxt0n

*Woo hoo!*

:welldone: :blueyay: :greenyay: :redyay: :welldone:



:shock2: I HAVE NITRITES!!! :shock2:
(.25 - I'll do a water change in the A.M.)



 :welldone: :blueyay: :greenyay: :redyay: :welldone:


:BIGgrin:​


----------



## billswin

my nitrites are almost to .25, but ammonia is at 1.0 - why r u doing the water change if the ammonia is turning into nitrites isn't that what you want to happen?


----------



## Byron

billswin said:


> my nitrites are almost to .25, but ammonia is at 1.0 - why r u doing the water change if the ammonia is turning into nitrites isn't that what you want to happen?


The nitrosomonas and nitrospira bacteria [nitrosomonas convert ammonia/ammonium to nitrite, nitrospira convert nitrite to nitrates] do not live in the water, so doing a partial water change will not affect the cycle. Only change the water, don't vacuum the substrate as the bacteria colonize hard surfaces like the grains of gravel, and you don't want to remove them. Similarly don't clean the filter (unless it gets clogged) during the cycling period.

A pwc every day will not harm any fish, it will be positive. It is done during the cycling to keep ammonia and/or nitrite levels low, since these stress fish and if high enough cause internal damage which can lead to health issues and early death, or if really high can outright kill the fish.

The earlier comment that store staff recommended pwc if fish were showing stress is fine, but if you are testing ammonia and nitrite you can see the level rising before the fish start showing stress and causing further damage, so do the pwc. Don't wait for the fish to become permanently damaged internally before taking action.

On the ammonia, if you are using Prime or a similar detoxifier don't fuss over high ammonia readings; these products detoxify by changing ammonia to harmless ammonium. The nitrosomonas bacteria will still use the ammonium same as ammonia. Prime also claims to detoxify nitrite, but I've no experience or data on how this occurs or to what degree, so myself I would do a daily pwc with nitrite above .25.

Byron.


----------



## paxt0n

*Cycle is FINALLY starting...but a few ??s*

So, I'm finally getting nitrite readings (around/below .25) and doing 20% water changes to keep them there (one yesterday and one today...so far).

My three NEW questions are:

1) My tank seems to be smelling a little "fishy". :lol: Now, I know fish live in there, but is it supposed to smell "fishy"? I believe I started noticing the smell about the same time that I started getting nitrite readings. I don't know if the two are related. I can really only smell it if I put my nose right above the water, and the smell is greatly reduced after a 20% water change. The filter *definitely* smells "fishy", but still not something I can smell unless I put my nose up to it.

Anyway, is this normal?

2) I've just noticed that there is a white film growing on some things in my aquarium, particularly the suction cups for the heater and feeding ring (or maybe it's just more noticeable on them, since they are black). I also noticed the film on an air tube, at water level. Again, I seem to have noticed this about the time I started getting nitrite readings and don't know if the two are related.

So, is this anything to be worried about?

3) When should I change my carbon filter? I have an Aqueon QuietFlow 10. It has the carbon filter and a "Bio-Holster" that supposedly "holds" the bacteria, so changing the filter won't affect the bacteria. According to Aqueon, it should be done every 4-6 weeks, or when water starts entering the filter by-pass channel (whatever/wherever that is). I've pulled it out and it is definitely dirty and smelly, but I don't want to screw anything up with the cycle, if I replace it...

Suggestions?

:thankyou: 
(AS ALWAYS)


----------



## 1077

:lol: Don't put your nose right over the surface of the tank. All kinds of organisims and bacteria begin to develop in the aquarium and there is ample time to clean the stuff you mention while doing water changes AFTER the tank has matured.
If it bugs you terribly, you can use a new toothbrush and or paper towel (clean) Folded into fourths to wipe down surfaces but again,, I would wait until the tank matures (cycled).
You really need to try and get as much mileage as you can from carbon inserts,cartridges etc. Most folks simply swish this material around in a bucket of old aquarium water that is removed during water changes and stick em back in. Recommended filter changing by manufacturers is way for them to make money. The carbon in these cartridges ,given the small amount,,, is only effective for a week or two. After that the surface of the carbon and the material covering it, becomes home for the beneficial bacteria and hence the reason why most folks sim0ply clean it as described,and stick it back in. In newer tanks,I would not be inclined to replace it too quickly. Once the tank has become3 established, (cycled) then you can replace it if you like so long as there is also the bio material you speak of. Fresh carbon will reduce the smell in tanks but again,, I would not worry about it till after the tank is more mature. 
Others will say carbon is not needed and is true,but for this particular tank, at this particular time,,,I would not remove,replace anything till the tank has matured.


----------



## paxt0n

Thanks 1077! 

Just to clarify one more thing: Now that the ammonia is being processed into nitrates, do I still need to feed small amounts every other day?

I only ask because my betta has become a bottom-feeder, pecking anything he can find off the bottom of the tank. :demented:

I guess I should be glad he hasn't eaten any of my minnows or ghost shrimp. He seems to only like to snack on danios, so far...


----------



## 1077

Foraging along the bottom is what fish do in the wild. Nobody there to drop food on surface for them at regular intervals. Best to feed fish a small amount and watch to see that they eat it. Then you can offer a little more and see that it too is eaten. Many folks sprinkle Xamount of food on the surface or throw in X amount of pellets. Fish will eat what they can or want and the rest begins to decay which is the beginning of water quality deterioration. I am not advocating starving the fish ,just advocating controlled feeding.;-)


----------



## paxt0n

Thanks again.

I understand that, as far as the flakes go. The betta food is floating pellets and if I drop them in, one at a time, he'll eat at least 4 or 5 of them. When I only let him have 1 or 2, then he goes over to the other side of the tank and starts eating the tropical flakes.

I can feed the betta 4 or 5 pellets a day and he will eat them. Will this create enough extra waste to cause an ammonia problem, though? By the way, I just tested the ammonia and it is very near 0...mostly yellow, with a tiny bit of green in it. I'll post the full results when I'm done.


----------



## paxt0n

So, here are the full results from testing tonight:

Ph: ~7.2
Ammonia: 0 (yellow w/ very small amt of green)
Nitrite: between .25 & .5 (doing a pwc tonight)
Nitrate: 0 (similar level to Ammonia - mostly yellow w/ very small amt of orange)


----------



## 1077

Were it me, I would like to see Betta eat a couple three pellets a day and some flake . Variety of foods are better than one type food. Fish sounds to me to be doing well with the way you are feeding. Nitrification process (cycling) seems to be moving along well also. I would just keep doing what you are doing. Soon the nitrites will fall off to zero and nitrAtes will appear. Once this happens,and ammonia and nitrites read zero for five or six consecutive days, You will be good to go.


----------



## paxt0n

*Did I kill them?*

...the bacteria that is.

I bought a stand for my aquarium a few days ago and drained about 80% of the water, so that I could lift the tank, to get it onto the stand. I didn't vacuum the gravel, but I did disturb it a little bit, in order to rebury the air hose and some plants.

The problem is that, all of a sudden, my nitrite level is zero and ammonia is showing up again. 

I would assume that the larger water change wouldn't affect the bacteria, but am I wrong?

The only other thing I can think of is that I may have overdosed with Prime when adding the new water. For some reason, I think I may have used 5mL of Prime instead of 1. I'm not sure, because I was just "doing another water change." However, if the larger water change couldn't cause it, then maybe I did overdose with Prime. 

I know there are questions as to whether or not it does anything to nitrites, but it does say something similar to "in a nitrite emergency, a double dose may be used." Well, if I added 5mL, then that is a 5x dose.

Anyway, regardless of what I did to f* it up, am I basically just starting over again?

...or could I just be dreaming this all up and the reason the nitrites are zero is because my tank is cycling? Wouldn't the ammonia be zero too, at this point? The Nitrate level hasn't changed...

*sigh - I dunno....

:BIGangry:


----------



## 1077

If ammonia shows up in amount greater than .25 then change 25 percent of the water. 
Eventually, the ammonia and nitrites will fall off and nitrAtes will appear assuming you stop overdosing with conditioner and upsetting the substrate ,filter,and possibly fish.
Keep feeding as discussed previously.


----------



## paxt0n

Got it!


----------



## paxt0n

*Red/Brown Algae all over the place...*

Hello again,

I'm still waiting for Nitrites to show up again. The ammonia seems to be staying at an acceptable level. 

However, algae seems to be attempting to take over my tank. It started as brown spots in a few places, about a week ago. Now it is starting to cover the plants and substrate, and it is "blooming" in some places. I'm not sure if blooming is actually what it's doing, but what I mean is that rather than just being a film, it is now growing outward from the film. There are little "specks" of brown starting to pop up (attached to whatever the "film" is on...)

I hope that makes sense.

Anyway, I have read that Otos eat brown algae, but I don't know if I should add another fish to my tank, at this point. 

So, what would you recommend that I do? 

:thankyou:


----------



## Angel079

Brown spot algae is extremely common in newly set up system in which high ammonia levels are found. Once the tanks's done cycling the ammonia at 0 and the beneficial bacteria are establish this will subside.
Yes Otos will eat this BUT they're extremely sensitive fish when it comes to NO's and/ or ammonia - For that reason I'd not suggest to add any to your tank until after your ammonia's at 0 for good, otherwise chances the Otos would die on you are too big.

What are you testing the Ammonia & NO's with strip test or liquid?


----------



## paxt0n

I'm using the API test kit. I was to the point where ammonia was near zero and nitrites were starting to go up, but then I think I accidentally overdosed (5x) with Prime and killed the nitrites. So, now I'm back to just getting ammonia readings, which aren't even going up as fast as they were before. I don't know what you consider high ammonia levels, but I've been keeping it below .25 with water changes (which I haven't done for a couple of days now, because the ammonia has stayed below .25...


----------



## Byron

In my view, as long as you're using Prime with all water changes, and the ammonia is not rising above .25 between the weekly water change, OK.


----------



## paxt0n

Byron said:


> In my view, as long as you're using Prime with all water changes, and the ammonia is not rising above .25 between the weekly water change, OK.


OK, as in "OK to get an Oto" or "everything is OK the way it is"? ;-)


----------



## Byron

paxt0n said:


> OK, as in "OK to get an Oto" or "everything is OK the way it is"? ;-)


Sorry, didn't connect this to an oto. I meant that your tank is OK with respect to its cycling program if ammonia is not higher between pwc and you use Prime.

As for otos, no, I would wait until the tank is definitely cycled and then matured a bit, say 3 months, before adding fish as sensitive as otos. And then, only if there is algae they will eat present, either brown or common green. Brown algae (diatoms actually) usually only appear in new tanks during the first couple of months, and once the tank is stabilized it doesn't re-occur. 

I do not hold the view that one should buy any particular fish to do a task like cleaning algae, unless you really like that fish and want it regardless, and algae is present to supply its needs. Every fish you add is going to impact on the bio-load, and that means one less other fish you can add. No point in filling a tank with fish you don't really want. If you follow that discourse.;-)

Byron.


----------



## Angel079

Just give it time and keep up the w/c. I'm almost certain by the time your tank is "old enough" for a Oto, you're brown algae will have subsided anyway.


----------



## paxt0n

*Now I'm really confused*

I'm beginning to wonder if when the Nitrites suddenly "disappeared", if that part of the cycle may have been over. 

Yesterday and today, I'm getting 0 for Ammonia, zero for Nitrites and about 5.0 for Nitrates!?

How long do Nitrites usually show up?

Obviously, I'll keep testing for everything, every day, to see if anything changes.

It has been about a month since I first started my tank, so maybe it is done cycling??

:dunno:


----------



## Mean Harri

Sounds like to me that your bacteria are completing the full cycle. Ammonia breaks down to nitrites and nitrites down to nitrates. Now that ammonia and nitrites are 0 and nitrates are a 5.0 it seems like a full cycle. As for the 5.0 reading of nitrates I can't tell you if it's time for water change or not. That part I still have to read up on for safe levels.


----------



## 1077

I would monitor (test), the water each day for ammonia and nitrites for a week. If after a week ,ammonia and nitrites still test zero each day, then you should be safe to add fish slowly ,a few at a time with week in between new additions. Too many fish at once will result in spikes in ammonia and nitrites . Sounds like the tank is maturing nicely.


----------



## paxt0n

I'm still alive! (and so are my fish).

I waited for Nitrites and Ammonia to test at zero for a week, then I added an Oto and two dwarf frogs.

Now I am getting Ammonia readings around .25 (was higher, but did water change), Nitrite at 0 and Nitrate around 30.

Should I just continue with the usual "treatment" for ammonia levels?

Also, what is an acceptable Nitrate level?

I am still using Prime during water changes. I also bought a couple of Waterlily Bulbs and stuck them in the substrate. They are "guaranteed" to grow within 30 days.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to leave my tank stocked as it is, and not add any other fish. I'm already thinking about upgrading to a bigger tank (which I will cycle before I add any fish!)

I should also note that I brought home a couple of snails and now have a dozen or so, as expected. They are doing a VERY good job of cleaning up the brown algae, which is now about 50% gone. Do snails cause any problems with water quality? I know once I have a tankful, I'll need to get rid of some of them...

Thanks again for all of your help!


----------



## stephanieleah

Hi there, you didn't mention your tank size? I'm guessing it's something small. I'd be doing a major water change if my nitrates were at 30. Your bacteria may need to catch up with your bioload. Just keep checking the water and doing water changes as needed.

What do you mean by "treatment" for ammonia levels? Your test kit could be detecting ammonium, the treated form of ammonia if you used a water conditioner to detoxify ammonia from your tap water (for example, my tap water tests at about 1ppm for ammonia so i get a slight ammonia reading after my water changes but I know it's from the tap water and it's treated ammonia, ie. harmless to fish).

Don't think snails impact the water quality. In the rare case that it feels like they are multiplying too fast, I just pluck them out of the tank. Snails will lay eggs but some will only hatch in brackish water. For instance my nerite snails lay eggs everywhere but they never hatch, but the snails that migrated in on my plants from the lfs lay eggs and actually do multiply. Not very rapidly, though, and my loaches probably eat the fresh babies.


----------



## paxt0n

It's a 10-gallon. By "treatment", I meant what had been discussed earlier in the thread. 1077 and Byron have been guiding me along (and setting me straight).

I now have the following in my tank:

1 male betta
1 Oto
2 ADFs
3 White Cloud Minnows

I've read that White Cloud Minnows actually shouldn't be kept in a heated tank, not a cold-water tank, but a room temperature tank. I've also read that they should be kept in groups of 8 or more. So, I am thinking about getting a 20 gallon eventually, leaving the Minnows (and adding about 5 more) in the 10 gallon, and moving everyone else to the 20. Then I'll probably just get more ADFs. I love the little guys.


----------



## stephanieleah

paxt0n said:


> It's a 10-gallon. By "treatment", I meant what had been discussed earlier in the thread. 1077 and Byron have been guiding me along (and setting me straight).


My bad, i didn't realize there were seven pages in this thread! Sorry to but in ;-) Sounds like things are getting handled!


----------



## paxt0n

You're not butting in. Your advice is very welcome.


----------



## FrogHerder

paxt0n said:


> It's a 10-gallon. By "treatment", I meant what had been discussed earlier in the thread. 1077 and Byron have been guiding me along (and setting me straight).
> 
> I now have the following in my tank:
> 
> 1 male betta
> 1 Oto
> 2 ADFs
> 3 White Cloud Minnows
> 
> I've read that White Cloud Minnows actually shouldn't be kept in a heated tank, not a cold-water tank, but a room temperature tank. I've also read that they should be kept in groups of 8 or more. So, I am thinking about getting a 20 gallon eventually, leaving the Minnows (and adding about 5 more) in the 10 gallon, and moving everyone else to the 20. Then I'll probably just get more ADFs. I love the little guys.


I love my ADF's too!  I've shared my home with cats who had less personality and showed less affection than the frogs. I've heard and read a different places that it may not be a good idea to keep snails with them. We learned the hard way that they can and will get gravel caught in their mouths. They don't have tongues, and have a hard time disgorging hard objects which can get wedged underneath their jawbones. This can lead to injury/death (we nearly lost our female ADF this way), and so most recommend either sand or larger pebbles/stones for substrate. I'd think snail shells could be a hazard this way (or cause blockages if they're swallowed). Don't think it would matter with bigger snails, but if they start making little baby snails I'd be careful.


----------



## 1077

paxt0n said:


> I'm still alive! (and so are my fish).
> 
> I waited for Nitrites and Ammonia to test at zero for a week, then I added an Oto and two dwarf frogs.
> 
> Now I am getting Ammonia readings around .25 (was higher, but did water change), Nitrite at 0 and Nitrate around 30.
> 
> Should I just continue with the usual "treatment" for ammonia levels?
> 
> Also, what is an acceptable Nitrate level?
> 
> I am still using Prime during water changes. I also bought a couple of Waterlily Bulbs and stuck them in the substrate. They are "guaranteed" to grow within 30 days.
> 
> I'm pretty sure I'm going to leave my tank stocked as it is, and not add any other fish. I'm already thinking about upgrading to a bigger tank (which I will cycle before I add any fish!)
> 
> I should also note that I brought home a couple of snails and now have a dozen or so, as expected. They are doing a VERY good job of cleaning up the brown algae, which is now about 50% gone. Do snails cause any problems with water quality? I know once I have a tankful, I'll need to get rid of some of them...
> 
> Thanks again for all of your help![/quote
> 
> Treatment for ammonia levels is water change with conditioner(prime). Sounds as though the bacteria which develops in porportion to bioload(fish),, is trying to catch up with recent addition of fish or frog.
> Nitrates of 30ppm aren't anything to be concerned about but 20ppm would be better. Feeding fish smaller amounts or every other day will also help with ammonia and nitrates.
> There is little room for error in five and ten gallon tanks with respect to overfeeding or over stocking both of which are easy to do. Were it me,,my next tank would be the largest tank I could afford. Trust me, you will kick yourself for not trying to get the larger tank. The larger the tank,, the more stable the enviornment due to the dilution capabilities of the larger volume of water. also provides more room for fish!;-)


----------

