# Second Ick attack within a few weeks



## gblaca (Jul 5, 2011)

After treating my aquarium with Titra Lifeguard for 7 days and raising the temperature to 86 degrees for 10 days, one of my fish has Ich again just one week after stopping treatment. I have several live plants, 1 corydoras catfish, 13 cardinal tetras, and 1 baby platty. 

I already have 1 teaspoon of salt in per gallon in my 20 gallon tank. 

Furthermore upon measuring my water quality, I have recently put in 2 doses of nitrifying bacteria called Fritzyme because my ammonia is 1 ppm, my nitrite is 5.0 and my nitrate is 20. I guess my tank is cycling again after the last ick treatment. 

I do not know how the tank has any Ick parasites in it again after treating the first time since I have not added any new fish nor plants to the tank since the last treatment. 

Do you have any recommendations?


----------



## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

Ich can take several weeks to treat.

It has a four-stage life cycle-

I Tomtits The ich is free swimming, and vulnerable to treatment. It must find a host within a few days.

II trophozoites The Ich finds a host, and burrows into the skin forming cysts. It is immune to most treatments.

III trophonts The reproductive cyst falls off into the aquarium. It is immune to most treatments, and is busy reproducing 200-2000 Tomtits.

Since two of the stages are invisible to the Naked eye and can last up to a week at 72-74F, I would bet thats what happened. Raising the temperature will speed up the life cycle, boosting the effectiveness of the medication.

You need to treat again, and this time keep it going for a week after all symptoms are gone.


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

gblaca said:


> After treating my aquarium with Titra Lifeguard for 7 days and raising the temperature to 86 degrees for 10 days, one of my fish has Ich again just one week after stopping treatment. I have several live plants, 1 corydoras catfish, 13 cardinal tetras, and 1 baby platty.
> 
> I already have 1 teaspoon of salt in per gallon in my 20 gallon tank.
> 
> ...


 Your water quality is putting stress on your fish also. Making them vulnerable to Ich already there. The nitrate not so much, but your AMM and Trites should read 0.


----------



## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

your nitrite is in a deadly range. Much more concerning IMO then any diseases right now.


----------



## gblaca (Jul 5, 2011)

Thanks for your replies.

I forgot to mention that I previously raised my tank temperature to 86 degrees Fahrenheit and now it is 84 degrees going up to 86 degrees again, should I treat the Ich with salt, Rid-Ich or the Tetra Lifeguard again?

Also how can I reduce the nitrite in light of the fact that I recently added Fritzyme as a beneficial bacteria?

Would it be better to do water changes or just let the bacteria work?


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

gblaca said:


> Thanks for your replies.
> 
> I forgot to mention that I previously raised my tank temperature to 86 degrees Fahrenheit and now it is 84 degrees going up to 86 degrees again, should I treat the Ich with salt, Rid-Ich or the Tetra Lifeguard again?
> 
> ...


 Is this a reletively new tank? Amm and Trites should not be anywhere near the levels they are. If you just dosed, then give it a couple days to see if its affective. I hope it does, because it appears as if your still in a new tank cycle.


----------



## gblaca (Jul 5, 2011)

Yes I am in a new tank cycle because here is what happened.

On June 4, 2011 I bought a 20 gallon tank and just a week later on June 11, 2011 I put 6 Cardinal tetras in it. I thought it was safe to do so since I added Nutrifin Cycle before adding the fish. 

3 Cardinal tetras died and then I added 10 more the next day ending up with 13 cardinal tetras. I also bought one Corydoras catfish at that time and later inherited 1 baby platy. 

At that time I discovered Ich on the Cardinal Tetras and treated with Tetra Lifeguard for 10 days between June 12 - June 22, 2011 to be sure even though the box said treat for 5 days. I also raised the tank temperature to 86 degrees. 

I reduced the tank temperature to 82 degrees, and upon testing my water 9 days later about July 1, 2011 noticed the ammonia was 1, nitrite 5 and nitrate 20. At this point my tank was already running about a month, but maybe the Tetra Lifeguard altered the biological cycle. About July 6, 2011 I added Fritzyme bacteria to try to establish biological bacteria and lower nitrite. Now it is July 10, 2011 and the nitrite has not changed. 

Last night I discovered 4 ick spots on one of the Cardinal tetras. This morning I discovered several ick spots on several of the Cardinal Tetras. Incidentally I have been feeding them live brine shrimp and yesterday bloodworms at which time I added more Fritzyme. 

I think I have been overfeeding the fish since they were so anxious to eat lots of live food. 

Consequently I have discovered 2 ick outbreaks June 11 to 21 and now again July 9, 2011 just about 2 weeks later. Apparently Ick never got eliminated the first round or else I reintroduced it through some live food or adding a plant to the main tank. Nonetheless it has been a very frustrating experience. 

I am sure there are preventative measures I could have taken like cycling the tank before adding the Cardinal tetras and adding salt before adding the fish etc.

I have read some good things about Rid-Ich and how other people were successful in eliminating Ich with it, but also a lot of disasters where it killed their fish. Furthermore I hate the idea of using formalin and contaminating my tank with Malachite green but I have read they are effective, but many fish like tetras and catfish are extremely sensitive to these chemicals. 

My tank has about 20 live plants in it - mainly swords and I hate to damage them with salt, or hurt the Cardinal tetras and Corydoras catfish with salt.

They survived the temperature increase and Tetra Lifeguard treatment last time, but I am not sure it was effective. 

I am leaning toward adding 13 teaspoons of salt to the already 4 teaspoons of salt I have previously added to the 20 gallon tank since I am sure 3 gallons are displaced by the gravel making it about 1 teaspoon of salt per gallon and raising the tank temperature to 86 degrees again.

I am not sure if I should add the Tetra Lifeguard again to the salt I am adding. The package says it is a non-antibiotic agent that treats the signs of disease. Active ingredient is 1-chloro-2,2,5,5-tetramethyl-4-imidazolidinone. 

Furthermore there is a warning on the package that says:

NOTE: Not suitable for scaleless fish, invertebrates, or newly set up tanks. It did not seem to bother my newly set up tank last time and the scaleless Corydoras catfish survived as well as the Cardinal tetras without one of them lost. 

As of this time since I added an additional 5 teaspoons of salt to the previous 4 teaspoons giving 9 teaspoons of salt to the tank and almost a bottle of Fritzyme bacteria, the Cardinal tetras seem to be ok staying midtank. 

I also have 2 external filters running in the tank cascading water on the top. A Marineland Penguin 150 and an Aqueon 10. 

The tank really looks beautiful and I hate to loose these fish or the plants.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

WOW.:shock: You started another cycle in your tank by adding so many fish at one time, at the beginning. But. Don't raise your temp to high, as your going to stress the crap out of your fish more. They are already at max stress and you don't want to add to it. Really, you should only be doing one thing at a time here. If your using Rid-Ich, then thats all you should be using. Not the high temp and Rid-Ich and the Tetra treatment, thats way to much for a new tank to handle all at once. It says use for at least 3 days after signs are all gone. Was this done? Thats why I don't like this product. If it gets into the egg stage, then its in the substrate and Rid-Ich will not take care of business. But, use this and this alone as directed. But, us it for at least 5 days after signs are gone. Do the 40% water change at end and put your carbon back into the system. Did you remove all the carbon from your system when you started it before? Carbon will remove it from the water, thats why you must remove it.


----------



## cro117 (Jul 12, 2011)

there is also an organic treatment from kordon that we used to use for some of the delicate fish, but i dont actually recommend it. to actually be effective it took over the recommended dosage to do anything, and in some cases it would do its job just fine, and in others it wouldn't work at all. my guess is that some cases the ich was treated similarly at some point along the distribution conveyer-belt and built up an immunity. 

ok, long post for not even giving my recommendation yet, sorry about that. as i believe someone mentioned before that the ich isnt really your main problem at this point, but rather the new cycle is. adding bacteria can work great for a short period, but it can through your cycle out of alignment and i don't often recommend it, especially with a new tank. if you add too many bacteria they can overpopulate and starve, forcing them to go dormant. sometimes they overcompensate and you are left with too little bacteria then, in which case they all reactivate and you are back to having too many. i have seen tanks cycled with bacteria show 0 ammonia one week, only to show significant ammonia spikes in the weeks that fallow.

i always recommend fishless cycling, or starting off very small and slowly adding. in this case though the fish are already there so i would recommend physically controlling the ammonia/nitrites for a while until you start to get a healthy colony of bacteria. this leads back to the ich treatment. i would suggest picking up some rid-ich or something that contains malichite green and formuline like quick cure, and do the recommended dosage either every day, or every other day for 14+ days with a 25-50% water exchange. this will eliminate your ammonia/nitrite problems for the time being. after the treatment continue doing several large water changes to remove any residual copper. of course, remove any carbon from your filter before starting.

if you have a syphon that attaches to your faucet these water changes can be done very easily with just the turn of a knob. if you don't have one, but have a sink capable of supporting one i would highly recommend you get one. just make sure, however, that you do it you don't stress your fish out too much while doing the water changes. usually i'll just stick the syphon in a corner of the tank with a piece of netting, cut out of a functioning aquarium net rubber banded to the end of it, to prevent sucking up any fish. the most important thing though is to make sure that the water entering the tank is as close to the tank water as you can get it.

considering how long this post has become i dont think anyone wants me to start in on how to best take care of the cycling process after the treatment phase, lol. if you would like some guidance in this area just post some more information about your filtration setup and the tanks general history in regards to cycling so far.


----------



## gblaca (Jul 5, 2011)

Thanks everybody for all your advice. There are so many options.


_______________________________

I did a 20% water change last night with conditioned same temperature water. Unfortunately as of this morning, the ammonia 2.0 and nitrite 5.0 has not changed. 

I have added 2 teaspoons of salt per gallon in my 20 gallon tank, at 2 different stages days apart. The plants seem to be doing ok, and so are the fish. The fish still have their white spots. I am also treating with Tetra Lifeguard again for 5 days, even though the Ick might be immune to it because I used it last time and it came back after 2 weeks after I stopped treating. I hope the salt will help kill the free swimming Ich but I realize that salt and 86 degrees might not be enough. So many people say that have treated Ich with salt and temperature alone. 

Since I heard that copper kills plants, I got an herbal formula today instead called "Ick Attack" by Kordon. I don't know if it is any good for killing Ich when they get to the free swimming stage. Do you know?

Should I add the "Ick Attack" now with the Tetra Lifeguard and the salt or would that make the fish too uncomfortable? I want to make sure I kill the free swimming parasites at every chance. I am fearful that these methods won't work - especially the Tetra Lifeguard (which I have only 3 more days) and salt and 86 degrees. 

I guess I should finish the 3 days of Tetra Lifeguard, salt and keep the temperature at 86 degrees. 
Then I can do another 20% water change and add the Ick Attack for continued treatment. I hope the white spots will drop off soon, but I am aware that is only half the battle. 

Maybe I should have used Rid Ich but I was afraid to use it because it says that Tetras and Catfish are sensitive to Malachite Green and Formalin and I don't know how my plants would deal with it, but if that's the only way to kill Ich reliably, I might try it. I also hate to stain the silicon in my tank blue. 

So I am confused - I wish that I could read more people's follow ups because I usually only see posts up to treatment questions and they don't post their outcome. 

Why do so many people say that salt works and kills Ich, and if so, how much salt do I need to kill the free swimming form of Ich?

Will salt kill my plants? They seem to be ok so far. 

I am in this for the long haul and realize I'll have to treat the tank for a while after the spots fall off the fish. Unfortunately it's been a couple of days and they are still on the fish.

I don't know how Ich came back after I already treated it for 2 weeks with Tetra Lifeguard just 2 weeks ago. It seemed like the ich was goine only to reappear.


----------



## cro117 (Jul 12, 2011)

i should also mention that as long as it is not too out of hand, ich is not all that detrimental to the fishes health. if you lose any fish in the next few days my money would be on the ammonia. im telling you this so you dont worry too much about getting it all done right away. this will take some time.

ich attack can work fine, we used it in the store a lot on the tetra tanks with fine results, but other times it didn't seem to work at all, so you'll just have to see how that goes. if you do have to eventually use the rid-ick out of the hundreds of times i have treated ick this is my favorite and i used it in my home tanks when i introduced an outbreak to my tank from an online seller. the tank was a planted tank with cherry shrimp and endlers actively breeding throughout the process, i think i went treated for 21 days. water changes are important when using copper treatments though, so if that's a problem then the ick attack is a good choice to try it will basically naturally breakdown in your water.

i would also like to stress again that salt can be harmful when used on fish that don't tolerate it well. in small doses it wont do a lot of harm, but then again, it wont treat anything either, and increasing the temperature is a give and take, i havent used this method too much personally, but i have observed it several times both in store and via costumer experience and its basically lowering the fishes immune system as your trying to fight off one disease. usually by the time the ick is gone the fish have already been taken by a bacterial outbreak. yes, i have heard of customers using this method with great results, but those fish were in very good condition.

my suggestion is to pick one thing, the ich attack and treat with only that, as far as all else is concerned pamper your fish as much as you can. id lower the temp, if for no other reason then to allow more dissolved oxygen in the water, and definitely work on that ammonia/nitrite.


----------



## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

I say treat the ich, and keep up the water changes daily to handle the nitrite. Many treatments for ich will hinder the bacteria population... If you try to cycle the tank and postpone the ich medication, you'll probably still have a mini-cycle when you treat in the future. I would just stick to whatever treatment worked before, but keep the treatment going for at LEAST one week after symptoms disappear.

I would do 30% minimum water changes daily (by vacuuming the substrate).
During treatment, feed very little to help control ammonia and nitrite.


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

redchigh said:


> I say treat the ich, and keep up the water changes daily to handle the nitrite. Many treatments for ich will hinder the bacteria population... If you try to cycle the tank and postpone the ich medication, you'll probably still have a mini-cycle when you treat in the future. I would just stick to whatever treatment worked before, but keep the treatment going for at LEAST one week after symptoms disappear.
> 
> I would do 30% minimum water changes daily (by vacuuming the substrate).
> During treatment, feed very little to help control ammonia and nitrite.


 :thumbsup:


----------



## sabianhunter (Jun 21, 2011)

I am also a newbie who had ick during my cycling period (tank started May 3). I just wanted to share with you my experience... I had one fish who has been through the ringer - a female sailfin molly who had been bullied, was pregnant, going thru a new tank cycle - and she was the one who developed ick in my tank. None of the others of my fish ever showed any symptoms... The moment i saw the ick I bought Quickcure, removed my carbon and started a temp raise (from 76 to about 85). At this point, i was still doing lots of water changes to get through the cycle. I treated the ick for about 10 days. I do not have salt in my tank at all as I was afraid of hurting my cory's and tetras. I also had to dose at the 'tetra' level of only 1 drop per gallon... 

The ick cleared up no one else caught it. I think that she was the only one who caught it because she was having so much stress. Probably that is why it is re-occuring in your tank. Your fish are stressed out about the water conditions.


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

sabianhunter said:


> I am also a newbie who had ick during my cycling period (tank started May 3). I just wanted to share with you my experience... I had one fish who has been through the ringer - a female sailfin molly who had been bullied, was pregnant, going thru a new tank cycle - and she was the one who developed ick in my tank. None of the others of my fish ever showed any symptoms... The moment i saw the ick I bought Quickcure, removed my carbon and started a temp raise (from 76 to about 85). At this point, i was still doing lots of water changes to get through the cycle. I treated the ick for about 10 days. I do not have salt in my tank at all as I was afraid of hurting my cory's and tetras. I also had to dose at the 'tetra' level of only 1 drop per gallon...
> 
> The ick cleared up no one else caught it. I think that she was the only one who caught it because she was having so much stress. Probably that is why it is re-occuring in your tank. *Your fish are stressed out about the water conditions* .


 Big reason.


----------



## gblaca (Jul 5, 2011)

My aquarium parameters are:

PH 8.4
Ammonia 2.0
Nitrite 5.0
Nitrate 5.0

The nitrate seems to have gone down from 20 to 5 and the ammonia seems to have gone up from 1 to 2. 

I did a 25% water change today. 

I have put some ammonia safe in to temporarily help with the high ammonia. I am still using Tetra Lifeguard after 10 days and the Ich has not returned for a third time. I have 2 teaspoons of salt per gallon and the temperature of the tank is 86 degrees.

Now I noticed that 2 of the Cardinal Tetras have fin rot and they also have a large brownish spot on their bodies. 

I am not quite sure if I should switch to 10 days of Kordon's Ick Attack or if I should add Melafix for the fin rot. 

I know the quality of the water is poor, but until the nitrogen cycle takes effect, I cannot do anything besides more frequent water changes.

Any feedback would be appreciated.


----------



## cro117 (Jul 12, 2011)

i would add the melafix, it doesn't harm the fish too much and i would definitely let the temp drop a little and stop adding salt. tetras hate salt. you may be killing the ich but your also killing the tetras. treating ich in a stressful way often leads to secondary infections.

keep treating with rid-ick, keep up the water changes and start adding melafix into the mix. with all the treatments and water changes you may have a hard time cycling your tank. if you want you can squeeze your filter media into a bucket of dechlorinated water. then ad some kind of media that you will later add to your filters, this can be a fresh replacement filter or just some simple aquarium cotton. then start adding food to the bucket to get a reasonable ammonia spike, maybe just 4-5ppm and let it sit untouched until it cycles, you can then add these bacteria to your tank later.


----------



## gblaca (Jul 5, 2011)

I have added Melafix which hopefully weill help with the Finrot.

Here is a photo of a Cardinal Tetra that looks ok and one that has the rot on it's body. 

Can anyone identify what this disease is?


----------



## cro117 (Jul 12, 2011)

its hard to tell anything from the photo. first thing i thought of was that maybe you were overdosing with rid-ick or another copper treatment without doing the water changes, and that it was a copper burn on the skin, but if i recall you went with ick attack instead. is it purely discoloration, or it it actually like a bite has been taken out of it's side?


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Ammonia burns? No more fish to this tank until your cycle is finished. The Ammonia and the Nitrites are going to be the biggest issues causing disease to your fish at this point. The Nitrates under 40 will not harm the fish either, not worried about those at the moment. But you rgoing to have to keep an eye on those Ammonia numbers as those are the biggest worries at the monent. They'll burn up the fish and their gills. Switch nothing at present time. Your not giving anything time to work, you keep changing it up, and thats not helping. You should add some Amquel+ or something of that nature jsut to keep your params closer to normal.


----------



## yodapoolman (Mar 29, 2011)

*water changes in planted tank*

I'm sorry, I thought I had done a new post instead of replying, so I edited it out. Please disregard this comment.


----------



## gblaca (Jul 5, 2011)

After smelling that horrible Melafix for 3 days, I wanted to get it out of the water. I did a 75% water change in my tank. 

Previous to the change, the water parameters were:

PH 8.0
Ammonia 2.0
Nitrite 5.0
Nitrate 20

After the water change, the water parameters are:

PH 7.6
Ammonia 0.5
Nitrite 0.5
Nitrate 5

I used Amquel Plus on the new water and I also used AmmoniaSafe to neutralize any remaining Ammonia.

The fish look about the same as before with some body sores and fin rot, so I don't know if the Melafix helped at all. I do not see any new Ich spots.

The water temperature is 84 degrees. 

This also diluted the salt content from 2 and 1/ 2 teaspoons of salt per gallon to 3/4 teaspoon of salt per gallon. It also diluted out the Tetra Lifeguard and the Melafix.

Lastly I added the activated carbon back to the filter after not having any in the water for about 2 weeks. 

I hope the Ich does not come back again.


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

gblaca said:


> After smelling that horrible Melafix for 3 days, I wanted to get it out of the water. I did a 75% water change in my tank.
> 
> Previous to the change, the water parameters were:
> 
> ...


 You looking at about a 6 week hold your breath wait. Thats about the life cycle. About the same time your tank will finish its cycle. Keep the stress level down and you should be ok. By adding carbon to your system, it will start to take out the medications you have put in.


----------



## gblaca (Jul 5, 2011)

*Update*



gblaca said:


> After smelling that horrible Melafix for 3 days, I wanted to get it out of the water. I did a 75% water change in my tank.
> 
> Previous to the change, the water parameters were:
> 
> ...



It is now July 30, 2011 which is 6 days later than my last post on July 24, 2011. 

The water parameters are creeping back up:

PH 8.0
Ammonia 1.0
Nitrite 2.0
Nitrate 5

Mainly the Ammonia from 0.5 after the water change to 1.0 now a week later and the Nitrite from 0.5 to 2.0. 

I would like to know if I should do weekly 25% water changes until my tank cycles or if I should just leave the water alone.

The fish seem to be better and they are eating. I have fed them live brine shrimp a couple of times.


----------



## gblaca (Jul 5, 2011)

*Water smells very fishy*

I just did a 20% water change. I am glad I did because I had to prune out a bunch of brown and yellowing leaves on my Amazon swordplants. _*Also the water smelled very fishy*_. I have seen a lot of people and sites recommending weekly partial water changes. They also say that doing these partial water changes is helpful in promoting *nitrifying* bacteria and of course the ammonia and nitrate concentration needs to be reduced in my tank until the nitrogen cycle completes. Hopefully it will help the plants also. As a precaution I put Amquel plus in the water and a product called Aquatic stress relief.


----------



## gblaca (Jul 5, 2011)

On August 1, 2011 I added an API Nitra-Zorb pouch.

I retested my water on August 3, 2011 with no beneficial change and the parameters are back up to:

pH 8
Ammonia 1
Nitrite 5
Nitrate 5
Phosphate 10
GH 107.4
KH 53.7


I did another partial water change on August 3, 2011 which is just 4 days since my last one. I also put in 7 stems of bacopa and a Marimo moss ball. They said this moss ball is very good for competing with any algae that would start growing in the tank since I have such a large amount of phosphates. I replaced the media in one filter with Bio-chem zorb carbon because of the smell and now the water is crystal clear. 

I have lowered the water temperature to 80 degrees Fahrenheit and for the first time I have noticed 6 of the 13 Cardinal Tetras have left the very back of the squarium and are swimming (separately) around the middle more toward the front. Of course they are very cautious and run away when I approach. I would never have imagined that they would ever do this. They are very hard to observe until they come to the front for feeding.

Since I finally tested the phosphate level and I noticed it is the very highest level at 10 I definitely need to take action. Desirable phosphates are 0.05 ppm according tothe article Phosphates in the Aquarium at Phosphates in the Aquarium and this article recommends cleaning and water changes as a remedy. 

I am unable to vacuum my gravel because I have so many delicate plants and I do not want to uproot them and disturb the roots. 

Any suggestions would be appreciated to increase healthy fish and water parameters.


----------



## gblaca (Jul 5, 2011)

Previous Water Parameters before 25% water change:

pH 8
Ammonia 1
Nitrite 5
Nitrate 5
Phosphate 10
GH 107.4
KH 53.7


After the water change I checked my Water Parameters again the next day and here is what they were

pH 7.4
Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite 1.0
Nitrate 2
Phosphate 5
GH 89.5
KH 53.7

I will be checing my Water Parameters as often as possible - hopefully every day.


----------

