# starting reef tank



## franklinr_casedo (Sep 14, 2006)

Hi guys,
sory to bother you. am about to start my 50 gallon reef tank. my questions are: 
1.how will i put liverock at a time. will use this as part of a cycling process. 
2.do i need to buy right a way MH although my tank is only in a cycling process 
3.what time will i open protein skimmer. 
4.what device will i buy to measure water params such as nitrate amonia nitrites 

thanks 
please help. 
frank


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## jsm11482 (Aug 8, 2006)

Only one I can answer is #4: Doc Wellfish makes a "Master Test Kit" for salt water and freshwater aquariums: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produ...&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&pc=1&N=0&Nty=1

Good luck with your new setup!


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## caferacermike (Oct 3, 2006)

You can add all of your rock work at one time to the tank. Wait about 6 weeks with your system fully running, skimmers, filters, lighting etc... Your tank and rock will cycle together.

Do you need a MH light at all? It all depends on what you want to keep. If you are going reef and really want it to "pop" then yes a MH is for you. Can you get away with T5 flouoros? Yes you can. Will it save you money in the long run? Probably not. Buying several fixtures and bulbs is more expensive than one nice MH. Can you wait 6 weeks while the tank cycles? Yes you can. Your coraline algae may suffer and die off. It will comem back but slowly. The main reason for coraline is that hair algae will not grow where coraline is.

I'd run the protien skimmer from day one. This way you can figure it all out before adding the fish.

Aquairum pharmacueticals does make nice kits. The Doc wellfish name is being replaced by API. Salifert and Seachem are regarded as the best most accurate kits. Don't forget a nice swing salinity guage or refractometer.


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## franklinr_casedo (Sep 14, 2006)

thanks mike 
but anyway what do you mean T5 flouros, sory i got lost.


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

franklinr_casedo said:


> thanks mike
> but anyway what do you mean T5 flouros, sory i got lost.


They're light tubes, Frank. You're lucky I was studying on light tubes lately as I was preparing for my planted tank.:mrgreen: Try the lights branded Phillips. If you can, get 40 watts(one tube).


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## caferacermike (Oct 3, 2006)

If you went with T5 or power compacts I'd recommend way more than 40w unless it is a fish only tank. More like 150w or better. I know of everal 20g nanos with 250w or more to keep very specific corals alive.


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## franklinr_casedo (Sep 14, 2006)

you mean in order for my anemones to stay alive and healthy what i need to do is to put two philips (80W) in my reef tank? are you refering flourescent or is it different?


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

franklinr_casedo said:


> you mean in order for my anemones to stay alive and healthy what i need to do is to put two philips (80W) in my reef tank? are you refering flourescent or is it different?


Hi Frank.:wave:

With 150W Mike has mentioned, you'll need 3-4 tubes. They should be fluorescent, of course. Incandescent just gives off too much heat.
I haven't known any lighting here that has more than 40W per tube other than 40W.


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## franklinr_casedo (Sep 14, 2006)

that's great, that way i can save money. i went to lfs and they told me that 20w MH would be enough for my anemones. am very confused


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

franklinr_casedo said:


> that's great, that way i can save money. i went to lfs and they told me that 20w MH would be enough for my anemones. am very confused


20W seems far too low but then again, MH is still different from fluorescent. I'd go with fluorescent rather than metal halides. MHs need to be hang as they tend to give off much heat.


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## usmc121581 (Jul 31, 2006)

> franklinr_casedo wrote:
> that's great, that way i can save money. i went to lfs and they told me that 20w MH would be enough for my anemones. am very confused


I think you are talking about a 20w flourescent. MH's dont come in 20w. Or you got it confused and your LFS said 20k MH, which will be good for your anemones. For the MH lighting it comes in 10k, 14k, and 20k. Me I would go with the MH light from the beginning. I learned a expensive lesson not going with MH first. It toke me 2 flourescent fixtures later to relize that MH's were the best way to go. So from me I would recommend MH's.





> 20W seems far too low but then again, MH is still different from fluorescent. I'd go with fluorescent rather than metal halides. MHs need to be hang as they tend to give off much heat.



Yes MH's do give of heat but if you have the proper ventalation your tank temp would never fluxuate more then it would normally. I have 2-250w MH's 6" above the water and the highest my temp has got has been around 83 degrees and that right around when I'm going to turn my MH's off, and I have 765w going into a 120gal.


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

Guess that pretty much ends up the confusion. I've never touch on MHs rather than fluorescents.

Good luck, Frank.:thumbsup:


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## franklinr_casedo (Sep 14, 2006)

thanks, its clear now, will use MH.
but usmc as u mentioned, 6" above the water? how will i hang my MH and what particular time will i turn it on? and what other light will i use when MH is turned off?


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

franklinr_casedo said:


> how will i hang my MH


The long cord can be attached to the beam. Your tank should be open-topped.


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## usmc121581 (Jul 31, 2006)

I built a canapy for my tank. I had a light fixture that I gutted and attached to the hood. My light schedule is like this. 

Actinics: 11:30am-10:00pm
Daylights: 1:00pm-8:30pm
MH's: 2:30pm-6:30pm


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## franklinr_casedo (Sep 14, 2006)

it's a big help for me. will use the same schedule then. one more thing, what do you mean daylights? is it flourescent or the ordinary lights?


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

franklinr_casedo said:


> it's a big help for me. will use the same schedule then. one more thing, what do you mean daylights? is it flourescent or the ordinary lights?


They're fluorescent. The ones you use for your house.


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## franklinr_casedo (Sep 14, 2006)

on the schedules u said, just wondering, there are times that those lights are simultaneously turned on? and those three lights inside the canopy?


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## Melissa (Nov 28, 2006)

franklinr_casedo said:


> it's a big help for me. will use the same schedule then. one more thing, what do you mean daylights? is it flourescent or the ordinary lights?


The daylights are the 10,000k bulbs, you should be able to get them at just about any lfs.


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## usmc121581 (Jul 31, 2006)

> They're fluorescent. The ones you use for your house


If you use the ones for your house, who knows what bad stuff would grow in your tank. The modern house flourescent is a T8 or T12 tybe bulb. They use A lower light spectum to light your house. My Daylights are a 10K spectum flourescent type. You can get them from any LFS.



> on the schedules u said, just wondering, there are times that those lights are simultaneously turned on? and those three lights inside the canopy?


As for this yes there all are turned on at 2:30pm-6:30pm. Thats when I have the most light going to the tank. When the MH's are on you wont be able to tell when the other bulbs are on. But rest asure that the coralline algea and what ever else you put in there are using the spectrums. What the actinics are for, is it simulates the natural blue in the shallow reef in the wild, blue actinics are a very important part of a reef.


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## franklinr_casedo (Sep 14, 2006)

Nice advice guys.
will keep u updated with my long long overdue hobby. will give u detailed photos on my tank later.

thanks thanks thanks.
am hoping you ll guide me all through out.

frank


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

franklinr_casedo said:


> will keep u updated with my long long overdue hobby.


Well, Frank, look at the bright side. You won't have to hassle if mistakes come out.:thumbsup:

Good luck with the reef. Got any pet shops where you can get corals?


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## franklinr_casedo (Sep 14, 2006)

yes.do you still remember what i told you about this hobbies of asia i saw from unang hirit?
i found it and they are exporting fishes and all kinds of corals. and of course with high quality. better than cartimar.
and lfs guy is really kind.


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

franklinr_casedo said:


> yes.do you still remember what i told you about this hobbies of asia i saw from unang hirit?
> i found it and they are exporting fishes and all kinds of corals. and of course with high quality. better than cartimar.
> and lfs guy is really kind.


Yep.
:shock2: You'll have fun shopping at that.:welldone: You lucky man. No lfs here sells marine otherwise I could be interested.:sob:

By the way, I never like Cartimar. I had a spat with an employee before for not respecting my rights to choose what fish I want.:sarcastic: They just think they know better.:quiet:


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

You're not set up properly for metal hallide lighting, but there may be a way to work with what you've got going. My husband is great for building light fixtures for his reef tanks, and he works for one of the USA's biggest manufacturers of aquatic and pet supplies. He works alongside of the guys who make and invent this stuff. Let me ask him tomorrow night when he's home from work, I'll have him read the posts, and I'll get his advice. I know he's fond of the T5 lighting, in part because of the lack of heat. Temperatures will make a HUGE difference in what animals you can keep, and with too much heat above and not enough ventilation, you may end up with the problem one of my accounts has... no inverts other than snails and brittle stars, because the temp is too warm for anything other than fish. There is no heater in that tank, never has been, but because of the lighting, the temp is an almost constant 84F. 
I'll post back tomorrow night after consulting with Rob.


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## usmc121581 (Jul 31, 2006)

Good point Betta baby. I'm running 760w and I still have to use a heater to even keep my tank at 80-81%. But thats do to me living in maryland and its cold right now, and we keep our house around 70-75%. I also have proper ventilation in my canapy that I built.


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## franklinr_casedo (Sep 14, 2006)

You guys are my angel.kindly do Ms Betta Baby.am about to buy lights tomor until i heard from you.

please please.

thanks, cheers


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Franklinr_casedo,

Hello, my name Rob (bettababy's husband).
The only "coral" that I have seen mentioned specifically in this thread are anemones (contrary to a lot of people's opinions, anemones are a type of coral. They belong to a group of corals called Hexacorals. Tentacles generaly occur in multiples of six.). Are you intending on keeping just anemones, or other corals such as stoney corals?

A 55gal tank in reef terms is a shallow tank. Metal halide lighting can be used, but nothing higher than 175watts mogul base (screw-in), or 150watts double ended HQI. There are halide bulbs available from 4000K on up to 20000K but 5500K would be the lowest for reef tanks. The intensity of the bulb would depend on the species of corals you wish to keep. The only sea anemone I would keep in a 55 gal tank with 20000K Halides is a Ritteri anemone (Heteractis magnifica, formerly Radiantus ritteri), as it occurs on the upper reef within 5 or 10 feet of the surface. 
Halides give off intense light and heat. I see you are from the Phillipines so heat will be an issue for you. You can get around that with a quality water chiller.

If you are as of yet unsure and would like the broadest range of choices for coral selection, I would suggest going with HO (high output) T5 lighting using an equal combination of Actinic blue and 10000K daylights. HO T5 runs cooler than power compact and metal halide lighting and uses less energy. Good HO T5 daylights have a very good CRI (color rendition index) and almost that of 14000K metal halides. Even SPS (small poyp stony) corals grow exeptionally well and show exceptional color when grown under enough watts of HO T5. For a 55gal tank I would use a 6 or 8 bulb unit. There are a few good brands such as Sunlight Supply, Finex, and Coral Life will be coming out with a HO T5 lighing fixture. Don't be confused with standard T5 as in the Coral Life T5 standard output fixtures that are on the market now (they are skinny fixtures with 2 bulbs in them).

The other advantage, is that you will not need a chiller when running T5 lighting.

If you have any specific corals in mind please let bettababy know and she will ask me about their lighting needs if she isn't sure.

Good Reefing!


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## usmc121581 (Jul 31, 2006)

> The other advantage, is that you will not need a chiller when running T5 lighting.



Just to clear things up I am pushing 2-250w MH's along with 260w of 2-65w 10000 and 2-65w actinic. and do not need a chiller along with alot of people I know running MH lighting.If you have enough ventilation for the heat to escape and be replaced by cool air.


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## caferacermike (Oct 3, 2006)

Rob, Sanjay and I both disagree with you about only being able to push 175w bulbs. Most bulb manufacturers are pulling away from 150-175w bulbs, except DE, because of poor performance and lack of interest.

I haven't jumped into this thread yet as no real plan for the tank had been laid out. If it were my tank and I wanted to make sure I could keep anything I wanted in it, I'd probably be looking into 2x150w DE 14K with about 100-200w of additional flourescent supllements in full actinics. If the tank is only going to contain LPS or softies than a handful of T5's might be appropriate. You could aesily run 250w de's or se's if you really wanted to push some serious SPS and have them grow anywhere in the tank.



I completely disagree with any advice to ever recommend a Ritteri anemone. I do have a magnificent anemone in my 75, this is known. However even the best reefers in the world, Melev, Calfo, Boerneman and others all agree that ritteris should be left in the ocean where they belong. I would have never pruchased mine but it was a gift from a local LFS owner.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Mike, I will show Rob your post, but in the mean time, I want to point out that his worry about running a chiller is because Frank is located in the Phillipines. The room temp is going to be warmer than Maryland, and room temp plus the halides will make for warmer water temps.
As for the Ritteri, I don't think Rob was suggesting a Ritteri as much as he was pointing out that that too much light or too intense of light will not be healthy for other species of anemones. The ritteri likes the extra light, thrives with it, while others, especially rock anemones, would simply shrivel up and die if the light is too intense. Rob's concern is that this is a 55 gallon tank, which is shallow, it's located in a naturally "hot" environment, and some species will not like the heat or intensity of halide lighting, and heat may reach a point of becoming a real issue during a hot month or 2 of weather.
I haven't made any kinds of suggestions because I still have no idea what the tank is intended to hold for population. Whenever I work with a customer, I always tell them to choose the animals first, then set up according to what those animals will need. When I plan my reef tanks, I use this concept also. It saves wasted money and work, and saves countless animals. I don't understand how anyone can set up an environment for any animal if they don't yet know what the animal is??? :roll:


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## usmc121581 (Jul 31, 2006)

All am saying is under proper ventilation. The tank water will not raise much. I have only lived in maryland since may. I have lived down south for the past 6 years and knew many people that have had MHs and no chiller. Thats all I meant to say, if you put enough fans in the hood it will be good.


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## trreherd (Aug 7, 2006)

a sump tank or a wet dry will also cool the water.


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## caferacermike (Oct 3, 2006)

Great answer TR.

There are many answers for every question. A fan in an enclosure will help. I would never recommend anyone run a reef tank with a lid on it. Natural evaporation will help lower a tanks temp. 

I live in TX, as in one of the hottest places in the US. I run WAY MORE lighting than the average bear but my tank is stable between 78F and 81F. Also if this individual wants to keep a certain type of reef then they need to be informed ahead of time that a chiller might be in their plans. Again this is why it is so difficult to answer with out a general plan laid out.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

So, Frank.... have you decided yet what you're going to put into the tank? What are we helping you to set up for?


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## franklinr_casedo (Sep 14, 2006)

what i want my 50 gallon reef tank is this:
9 true clownfish
2 yellow tang
2 blue hippo
50 kilos live rock
15 kilos of white sand 
anemones suited for true clownfish

50 gallon reef tank with sub tank (by the way how many gallon sub tank for a 50 gallon reef tank
subtank with foam and crush corals with outside proteinskimmer

hope this will clear things up.

please help me.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

For starters, that's way too many fish for a 50 gallon tank. If it were just clowns and anemones I'd say choose 4 clowns and 2 anemones, maybe 1 or 2 other SMALL fish, such as a goby or blenny.
Are you planning to upgrade within the next year to over 100 gallons? If not, then I'd say no to the tangs, because all of those will outgrow your 50 gallon tank. What about something like a coral beauty angel or flame angel? 2 clowns, 1 anemone, 1 angel... and your maintenance crew of shrimp, snails, and maybe a starfish or 2... and you'll have a full tank.
Can you rethink the fish and give us an updated list that won't overcrowd that size of a tank? What kind of clownfish are you thinking about keeping? The species of clown will determine the species of anemone, and since anemone was the only thing you listed that will require any special lighting, once we know what species you're working with, we can THEN help figure out your lighting needs.


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## franklinr_casedo (Sep 14, 2006)

thanks betta, i think ill follow ur suggestions, seems nice. coral beauty angel or flame angel 2 clowns, 1 anemone, 1 angel... and your maintenance crew of shrimp, snails, and maybe a starfish or 2.i want ocellaris or percula clownfish.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

With that for a mix, I would suggest the ocellaris because they're smaller and more peaceful than any of the others. With those I would suggest a bubble anemone for the clowns. If you want the clowns to understand what the anemone is for, try to get wild ocellaris instead of tank raised.
With that in mind, the T5 lighting would make the most sense to me, since it's cheaper not only to purchase, but to run... less heat, and plenty for what you'll be keeping. With the HO (high output) T5's, everything should thrive! I would find it quite pointless and a waste of money to run any type of halide lighting over what you've planned. There is nothing going into the tank that would need it.
The best tank to do for a sump system, a 20 high would suit your needs fine. If you wish to do a refugium, then I'd make it a 20 long because of the dimension change. 
If you need more help, let us know!


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## franklinr_casedo (Sep 14, 2006)

a milion thanks betta.
how many t5 will i buy?do i still need actinic?what would be its schedule?
and one more thing,what materials will i put in my 20 gallon sub tank.?

please help.


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## usmc121581 (Jul 31, 2006)

> With those I would suggest a bubble anemone for the clowns.


The only problem I have with this is that if you plan on having any other types of corals, polyps, or anenomes I would not recommend that. I have a bubble tip in my 120gal for my 2 yellow striped maroons, and they might be losing there home. Only because they move alot and I have to keep moving other things around so the bubble tip wont kill it. If it touchs other livings things such as corals, and other anenomes it will give them a sting of there life, might even kill it.[/quote]


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## trreherd (Aug 7, 2006)

the amount of lightine he is going to require for 1 anenamone will be enuff for to keep most corals.-rite? If he truly only want one anenamone in his tank and no other corals than posibly he could put one 70 watt halide were he wants the anenamone to stay and hopfuly the anenamone will not go past the light boundary.


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## usmc121581 (Jul 31, 2006)

Believe that anenamone not going to stay put. It will move when he feels the need.


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## trreherd (Aug 7, 2006)

It prolly wouldent move to an area with low lite though-at least not for long.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

For starters, lighting is not the only reason anemones move around. They will move to find better circulation, too. They are known to move quite often for various reasons, still no reason I see to go with halide, as it's not needed. Halide is more expensive to buy and to run, and as the heat issue has already been approached... the T5 is still what I suggest. I would work with a 6 - 8 bulb T5 HO (high output) fixture (48 inch for a 55 gallon tank). With this lighting, if you wish to do corals in the future, because of the shallownees of a 55 gallon tank, there are still many coral options open to you.
Because an anemone will get so large and move around so much, it's not advised to put much for corals into that tank anyways because you risk the chances of the anemone stinging the corals.
I still say halide would be a waste for this setup.


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## usmc121581 (Jul 31, 2006)

> It prolly wouldent move to an area with low lite though-at least not for long.


I would have to disagree with you on that only because mine will stay pinned in the lower corner or under a rock for a while. Then pop up and go back down. 



> lighting is not the only reason anemones move around


And like bettababy said they like to catch what ever they can from the movement of the water.



> still no reason I see to go with halide, as it's not needed. Halide is more expensive to buy and to run,


I would go with the MH's. For 3 reasons is once you start on a saltwater tank you will see more stuff you like and want to get it, but wait you bought T5's or PC so them beautiful corals you may want to get you wont be able to. (2) Say you do go with the PC's or T5's and you do want to get that high light needing coral, and decide to buy some or one MH, then you wasted money buying the T5's or the PC's or you can build a canapy and attach the flourescnts along with the MH's so your not wasting money buying more light fixtures. (3) Its just better to look at your tank when the MH's are on. 

As for the more expensive to buy get them off ebay, I bought 2-250w 20k MH for $289 and thats good for 2, as for the expensive to run, I cant give advice for that as I live on a base and dont pay for electricty, but I wouldn't think it would as you should only run them for about 4-6 hrs a day.



The lighting for a saltwater tank is the most difficult thing to choose, and everybody has there take on want they want and different views of what to get. It all depends on the look that your tring to achieve.


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## franklinr_casedo (Sep 14, 2006)

i wont place corals just anemones.
can you please give me pics so that i can see clearly the advantages of using MH or T5.am very much confused.

please, provide me pics, i mean actual pics or video showing the diference of MH and T5. please.


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## caferacermike (Oct 3, 2006)

Look in the salt section for all of my pics. They are all with MH. Look in salt contest submmision as well.


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## caferacermike (Oct 3, 2006)

With halides.


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## usmc121581 (Jul 31, 2006)

This is about 2 months old, after I built the hood with my PC and MH's. The 3rd pic you can see all the lights, the MH's are warming up at the moment.


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## trreherd (Aug 7, 2006)

If you do got with high output flourecents i would think that the icecap flourecent retrofit kit would be good. The bulbs are 75 watts each and they come in all sizes.
I think eventualy you will want a coral. just look how beutiful they are.
If you dont want to have to choose between betababy and both mikes than you could run one mh and a few vho.


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