# HELP with eradicating the disease FISH TB IN MY NEW TANK PLEASE!



## Jewels

Hi there,
I presume that you are familiar with fish TB, which is contagious to humans through cuts or splits on your skin. It kills fish slowly and cruelly with huge red lumps/ kinder to euthenaze them in the freezer in a plastic bag (or 20!)....
In people my Dr tells me that it progresses from small red lumps on the skin to migrating up to the lymph nodes and making you very sick.....
I wear disposable gloves in my tank now, but the water kinda seeps over the top.
I'm told that veterinary gloves are the go...................... if only I knew where to get them from! 
My vet doesn't know......... He says usually only horse/ cattle vets carry them and I live in the city! Anyway.......

NOW FOR THE PROBLEM WITH FISH TB!.........

Unfortunately I have got fish TB in my old tank (originally caught from some dwarf gouramis), and am wondering whether the medication Doxycycline (which eradicated the red lump from my hand) is suitable for the tank? 
If so I need to know the dose and strength of capsules. The aquarium shop says it's impossible to eradicate, especially with undergravel biological filtration systems like I've got (as you need the old gravel to keep the essential bacteria going). 
They sold me some Tetracycline, but this was not only very expensive, and after Beta the Discus died with a red lump (the symptom of fish TB), it has obviously not worked.
Any suggestions would be appreciated. I am reluctant to mess up my undergravel biological filtration system, as I find that it works very well, even allowing me to keep more fish in the tank than you should be able to for a 120L tank.........I have 3 Discus, 2 Redtailed sharks, 2 Angels, 1 Clown Loach and 1 Bristlenose Catfish all happily housed in there along with a pair of Blue Platies.....lots of rocks and plants too...................A happy system, normally.........
I am keen to take out the fish, put them in a temporary container and set-up the new tank ASAP.........HELP PLEASE!

Cheers Jewels


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## cerianthus

The bacteria which cause fish TB in F/W is called Mycobacterium fortuitum and for marine is M. marinum. It is acid-fast (tolerant of acidic water), Gram positive, non-spore forming, and non-motile.
It is known that certain strains of bacteria can invade skins of human, (skin on elbow, knees) to produce disease known as Swimming Pool Granuloma.
Form my experiences, unless tank were really maintained improperly, outbreak of fish Tb is not common. I have noticed the symptoms of fish TB when they are exposed to very acidic water for prolonged time. W/O facility to run actual test to verify the pathogen, I could only diagnose the disease thru obeservation of the symptoms (spine curvature, lesion and tumor-like growth). 

I have used Kanamyacyn (Kanacyn by Aquatronics), upon correcting water parameter with good results except spine curving ( which was permanent) from my experiences. Check your waer for pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, and nitrate, and correct the water condition as needed. 
As far as infected fish, should be isolated and treat according to Med's instructions.
TC has been over used in pet industries also. Their derivative, OxyTC, Doxycycline, seems to have better effect but I dont think it will work against fish TB.
I am not even sure if your fish has fish TB.
Look for such signs:
Refuced to eat and emaciated. Color changes. Skin ulceration. Spine Curvature. Protruding eyes. Growth is stunted.
If you think it's TB, try Kanamyacin. Try to control the water to possible optimal conditions. i hope i was some help. Good Luck!!


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## Jewels

*treatment of fish TB*

Thanx Cerianthus,
I'm sure it was fish TB, after much reading of Google......
I'll see if I can get some Kanamycin, as other authors on a Google search of 'fish TB' recommended it.....I don't know where I can get it from, but I'll try the aqurium stockist, as I'm a nurse and I've never heard of it being used to treat people.....Thanx for your feedback.....
Cheers Jewels
PS: Beta the Discus died with half his body black as though infected with a fungus/ was developing a red nodule and a curved spine/ became very lethargic........(rather than the biggest and pushiest fish in my tank as usual)/ floated in a corner/developed white eyes/etc
I'm sure it was a recurrence of fish TB, which I unfortunately caught from a pair of cheap bright blue Dwarf Gouramis years ago.........(I luv blue fish!)
I'm not sure if you're familiar with the undergravel biological Filtration technique, but the advice that goes with it is to re-use some of the old gravel when setting up a new tank/ as this keeps the water-cleansing bacteria (which take quite a long time to 'grow') alive in the tank...
This time I've referenced a piece of information that I found on Google... this advice is from 'OptusHome'....But with the requirement to keep bacteria going for the filtration, I'm not sure how much to follow! Maybe some more feedback from you about whether 30 degrees celcius is the right temperature to control the bacteria ( this temp keeps happy healthy Discus!) Cheers Jewels
Treatment - FISH TB: "OPTUSHOME':found on Google search under 'FISH TB'
'Optushome' QUOTE: TREATMENT:
"Mycobacterial infections of fish should be considered non-treatable. Unlike most other bacterial diseases, there is no cure for mycobacteriosis and it will progress despite your best efforts. Efforts to eliminate infection in affected populations with prolonged use of antibiotics have not been successful as _mycobacterium_ species are mostly resistant to conventional antibiotics. There are some reports that a combination of antimicrobials, including streptomycin, ethambutol, cycloserine, cotrimoxazole, rifampicin and tetracyclines, has been used and thought to be effective. Among these drugs, cotrimoxazole or rifampicin with ethambutol have been used most frequently. Isoniazid and rifampicin have been recommended for treating mycobacteriosis in marine fish. 

The customary treatment for infected fish is euthanasia and the disinfection of the aquarium before restocking. If several fish become infected in the same aquarium, it is usually assumed that the survivors are carriers and that they be treated accordingly. Following depopulation, the entire system, especially the filter bed, must be thoroughly disinfected with a mycobactericidal product (see below). In addition, all equipment that has been in contact with the infected fish should be disinfected. Gloves should be worn when handling infected fish or cleaning contaminated tanks or other equipment. Hands should be washed thoroughly afterwards with 70% isopropyl alcohol and a bactericidal soap. 
Break down the original infected aquarium and any other tank use as a treatment or quarantine tank and disinfect them with a strong chlorine solution. Use Calcium hypochlorite 65% to disinfect any tanks, which are in the vicinity of others housing live fish. Granular chlorine does not volatilise as readily as liquid chlorine (Sodium hypochlorite). In a poorly ventilated fishroom, fumes from liquid chlorine can cause fish kills in adjacent tanks. Concentrations of 200 mg/L for 30 to 60 minutes or 100 mg/L for 24 hours should be effective for disinfections of tanks, substrate, and submersed equipment (keep filters running during treatment). Always use chlorine with caution as repeated use and extended exposure of the silicon sealant to strong chlorine solutions will destroy or render the adhesive bond ineffective on glass aquariums with disastrous results. Chlorine will dissolve synthetic material like sponge filters, but most plastics are unaffected. Calcium hypochlorite is an oxidising agent and should not be exposed to intense heat, acids, or organic compounds because it is a fire hazard, particularly if wet. In some cases, explosion may occur. Always wear eye protection and rubber gloves when handling large quantities of chlorine. Chlorine can be neutralised by adding Sodium thiosulfate to the solution (7.5 grams of Sodium thiosulfate will neutralise the chlorine present in 5 litres of a solution of 200 mg/L)". 
This advice from 'OptusHome' on 'Google' webaddress members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/Myco.htm - 28k 
Cheers Jewels
PS: After having a 'Discus Disaster' from using treatments other than 'Chlorine neutral solution' - This makes me likewiswe reluctant to be too assertive abou adding things to an otherwise healthy tank system. In my tank, where I find that the undergavel filtration, used according to directions from the aquarium stockist, gives me happy fish and healthy plants.........Cheers Jewels (Only listed as a beginner because I forgot my password and has to rejoin!)


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## 1077

IME you will be well served after tearing down the tank and disinfecting everything to consider another type of filtration. Undergravel filters can and do harbor crap under the plates that cannot be removed without pulling the plates out. This crap can and does contribute to ammonia and or nitrite spikes as well as nitrates.Many of those who grow plants dont use undergravel filters due to the nutrients falling into and ultimately below the plates where rooted plants cannot use them. I believe your Discus and plants would do much better with different filtration. But Google search on pros and cons of undergravel filtration unless it's reverse flow will render more opinions. IF your fish did indeed die from TB (doubtful) Then substantial improvement in maint. routine will no doubt render favorable results. I keep five Discus in 80 gal tank . Two adults and three juveniles. Fish are fed three to four times daily (juveniles need frequent feedings) Water changes are performed four times a week 25 to 30 percent . Substrate is vaccumed at each water change (problematic in planted tanks) to remove any uneaten food. Temp 84 degrees. AMMONIA= 0 NITRITES=0 NITRATES = 0to5. IMO it would be difficult to maintain proper water parameters with undergravel filter but hey, Google search and decide for yourself.;-)


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## cerianthus

If i remember correctly, Kanamyacin is type of aminoglucosides(?), been long time since biochem class, is banned for human sonsumption to its sideeffects, damages to kidney or liver(?). It's readily available thru online or lfs as KANACYN by AQUATRONICS. It is critical that water is kept in good conditions to eliminate such infection. Like I said, it always happened with SA Cichlids when water condition was failing.

Although UGF can accumulate detritus under the plate, ibut in the planted tank, I really don't see a problem as far as causing such infections as long as pH is well maintained. In well established tank, you shouldn't have problem with NH3, NO2. In well stocked tank, ph will drop toward acidic side due to all the waste products produced in the tank, unless your tank has strong buffering ability. When pH goes too acidic, your beneficial bacteria (2 types of nitrifying bacteria which will oxidized NH3 to NO2 then to NO3). 
Reverse flow of UGF will simulate to some degree to Heating Coils used in Europe for Planted Tank. Still you will have detritus accumulating under the plate. Used to use UGF when younger w/o any problems as long as one keeps up w/ routine maintenance.

If remember from Chem 101, NH3 is in two different forms. Equilibrium between them will shift according to pH. As pH shifts towards acidic side, EQ shifts toward non toxic Ammonium Ion (NH4+) and toward NH3 as pH shifts towards basic side. NH4+ is known to be non toxic and NH3 being very toxic to fish. Even at pH of 7.4, highr[NH4+] than [NH3]. 

When pH drops low enough to a point where beneficial bacteria dies off thus no nitrifification will takes place which means NH4+ and NO2 (very toxic) will rise. Even though Nh4+ is not toxic but NO2 is. Do you rememberACIDOSIS. When person inhale CO, it will bind to hemoglobin and won't come off thus less gas exchange b/n CO2 and O2 since less gas exchange sites. Thus CO2 in blood accumulate becoming Carbonic Acid, causing pH drop in blood( It's been about 30 yrs since sitting in lecture room). NO2 has same effect on fish. Although product called, Methylene Blue , has been known and used to detox NO2 poisoning in fish, but why expose them when can be avoided. 
When found pH to be very low, should always test for NH3, NO2 before raising pH. Simple small frequent water change will help you lower the concentration of toxic waste and at the same time pH will gradually rise. As it does, beneficial bacteria will reestablish again to perform their function to oxidized the wastes to its end product NO3.
JFYI, I used to have my homemade version of Denitrator, like Marsh Area, where anaerobic condition are provided for anaerobic bacteria to perform their function rediucing NO2 to N2. As by product, will get Hydrogen Sufide Gas(H2S??) which give rotten egg smell. Deep Sand Bed was my method of controlling NO3 in the system when keeping non planted and heavily stocked tank.

Ther are lots of mothods you can utilize for fish tank using some knowledges obtained from sitting in lecture room for few years.I did lots experiments with success and failures. And I gain lots of knowledge about fish tank.

Sorry for the long reply. My thing is keep up w/ maintenance and teststing for pH, NH3, and NO2. And always quarantine new fish!!!


As far as starting new tank or Q/T, I always used water and filters from main tank, provided that main tank is at optimal conditions. This will fasten the process of establishing beneficial bacteria thus less chance of expsing fish to toxice waste products.


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## taylorg

so if my fish is sick and i have a open cut on my hand(which i do from a stupid cat bite) and i do and water change(which i just did) can i get sick ?????


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## cerianthus

Most likely you may get inflammation from cat's bite rather than from fish but it is always possible!!!
It is matter of controlling just like washing hand to rid of gems (virus, bacteria which are always present around us). Keep your tank clean and avoid open lesion getting in contact with fish tank water. I would not loose sleep over this matter though.


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## taylorg

cerianthus said:


> Most likely you may get inflammation from cat's bite rather than from fish but it is always possible!!!
> It is matter of controlling just like washing hand to rid of gems (virus, bacteria which are always present around us). Keep your tank clean and avoid open lesion getting in contact with fish tank water. I would not loose sleep over this matter though.


 thanks i really ocd about germs and stuff and i dont what the one thing that relaxes me to stress me out:shock:


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## cerianthus

Don't worry!! Having had numerous tanks , not to mention swallowing tank water as priming the hose, in my life, I am still standing and enjoys fish keeping. Just take a precaution when necessary!! 
Isn't it so relaxing? I find fish, as matter of facts cats and dogs, are not just relaxing but helps me deals with many difficulties and frustrations I may have encountered thru out the day. Look at the face of the dog for instance. Don't they just mellow down your anger and/or frustrations?


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## taylorg

cerianthus said:


> Don't worry!! Having had numerous tanks , not to mention swallowing tank water as priming the hose, in my life, I am still standing and enjoys fish keeping. Just take a precaution when necessary!!
> Isn't it so relaxing? I find fish, as matter of facts cats and dogs, are not just relaxing but helps me deals with many difficulties and frustrations I may have encountered thru out the day. Look at the face of the dog for instance. Don't they just mellow down your anger and/or frustrations?


 i know what you mean i have a 2 year old black lab that meets me at the door when ever i come in now matter how bad my day was he"s always there jumping like crazy begn for sum attention no matter how tired im astill find time to love on him ......and do a water change lol


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## Jewels

*RE: cuts on hands/ sick fish.........*



taylorg said:


> so if my fish is sick and i have a open cut on my hand(which i do from a stupid cat bite) and i do and water change(which i just did) can i get sick ?????


Hi there,
You'll only get an infection in your hand if the disease is Fish TB, which is totally treatable. The symptoms in fish can be found about if you do a 'google' search on the subject 'fish TB'. 
The symptoms on humans are a small red limp which appears (usually on the affected hand) and doesn't get better but steadily increases in size. if this is the case see a Dr, as it is totally treable with the antibiotic Doxycycline, but can progress to the lymph nodes and cause severe illness if untreated.
A water change will not help, in my experience.......I've tried and tried that.......... 
If you have cuts or lacerations on your hands I'd always follow the precaution of wearing disposable household gloves, available from the supermarket or a chemist. Better to be safe than sorry!. 
My problem in water seeping over the gloves is only because I have a large tank and large fish. Normally the gloves will protect your hands. My problem of water seeping over is 'cos the tank's very tall...............I nedd extra long gloves as a result.......
Don't panic, just get 'googling' and look it all up, you'll find lots of information here.
Good luck with the cat bite damage/ I'm a dog person!/ cat's can be nasty little creatures/ one approached my german sheoherd specifically to scratch her on the nose.... She now HATES CATS! (although I tried to teach her to leave them alone!).............BAD LUCK!
Cheers Jewels


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## Kim

I've never had any problems with the many cuts that I have on my hands and my fish tanks. Of course, if I am treating any tank for illness I will not touch the water, but in healthy tanks you should be fine provided you don't have severe lacerations and you wash your hands after.

I have one thing to say. INDOOR CATS!! I have 4 cats and not one ever bites or scratches, even when they were kittens. We can't let them outside because of cars and fishercats and in my opinion they are so much nicer because of it. All of the outdoor cats that I have met have been well....wild, and not good pets. My guys are so sweet! During the summer we do bring them out on the lawn for some fun, and during the winter they all pile up in front of the wood stove  Our cats also average 15 years of age which is pretty darn good. I'd say, don't judge a cat until you know how great they can be when allowed to grow up in favorable conditions. I love my kitties, and they always love me no matter what!


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## aunt kymmie

Fishercats? What's that??


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## Lupin

There is no cure for fish TB that I know of. I had this a few years back and decided to destroy all my stocks. I was unable to stop the damage caused by the suspected 'bacterial infection' for months until I became suspicious and decided to research further about what I am experiencing. I keep losing a few fish every few days and this was quite a headache that I almost gave up the hobby. This started with my praecox rainbows. The rainbowfish article I read confirmed my suspicions. After a discussion in a pleco forum why many of us are losing rainbowfish mysteriously, it was pointed out the cause is fish TB, no more, no less. All the symptoms I have seen matched the diagnosis of fish TB.


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## aunt kymmie

I recall reading somewhere that certain fish were more susceptible to fish TB. True or not true? When they say clown loaches are susceptible to ich this is so very true. Ich outbreak in my tank affected my clowns and NOT the yoyos. The fish TB is what scares me about ever having gouramis or rainbows..


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## cerianthus

aunt kymmie said:


> I recall reading somewhere that certain fish were more susceptible to fish TB. True or not true? When they say clown loaches are susceptible to ich this is so very true. Ich outbreak in my tank affected my clowns and NOT the yoyos. The fish TB is what scares me about ever having gouramis or rainbows..


Fish TB is not something which is common. Reading some of your posting, you don't seem to be the one who would neglect the tank. This usually happens when tank is very neglected. With routine maintenance and testing, should not worry about Fish TB w/ any fish such as Gourami and Rainbows...


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## Lupin

aunt kymmie said:


> I recall reading somewhere that certain fish were more susceptible to fish TB. True or not true? When they say clown loaches are susceptible to ich this is so very true. Ich outbreak in my tank affected my clowns and NOT the yoyos. The fish TB is what scares me about ever having gouramis or rainbows..


 Some species do tend to get vulnerable and yes, I noticed when I had ich, all 18 yoyos remained free from ich while some of my clowns had them but they were treated subsequently with salt and heat combo with no issues. Neon tetra disease also affects almost all species of tetras except the cardinals. As far as fish TB, rainbows are among those most susceptible whether you neglect a tank or not.


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## Jewels

Kim said:


> I've never had any problems with the many cuts that I have on my hands and my fish tanks. Of course, if I am treating any tank for illness I will not touch the water, but in healthy tanks you should be fine provided you don't have severe lacerations and you wash your hands after.
> 
> I have one thing to say. INDOOR CATS!! I have 4 cats and not one ever bites or scratches, even when they were kittens. We can't let them outside because of cars and fishercats and in my opinion they are so much nicer because of it. All of the outdoor cats that I have met have been well....wild, and not good pets. My guys are so sweet! During the summer we do bring them out on the lawn for some fun, and during the winter they all pile up in front of the wood stove  Our cats also average 15 years of age which is pretty darn good. I'd say, don't judge a cat until you know how great they can be when allowed to grow up in favorable conditions. I love my kitties, and they always love me no matter what!


Hi there,
You are SO VERY RIGHT about indoor cats!....
The one that attacked my poor German Shepherd (who was doing the right thing and leaving the neighbours kitten alone) was not only kicked outside presumably because of owner 'housetraing Problems'/but also kept locked in a cage!
I'm very community minded and an animal lover, so, after numerous knocks on the door had not been answered by the woman involved/ I went 'down the road' of leaving her a note under the door/ complaining about the cruelty involved in keeping a juvenile cat caged up on her balcony/ I'm not surprised it lashed out at my poor poor dog (who was a juvenile herself at the time).......and the note DID NOT GO DOWN WELL!
I was awoken one morning to the indignant screams of her friend along the lines of "She had no right to leave you a note like that!"......A note like what?, was my reaction....I couldn't see any problem with it's draft which I promptly re-read..........
I had gone to a lot of trouble to look up numbers for Royal Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (RSPCA) and the Animal Welfare League/ qoute the right departments involved ; etc/ and to be tactful and polite in my note...........
I don't think that the reaction was fair at all, considering that it could have beeen my dog's eye which could have been blinded instead....I even went to the trouble to re-write it several times to be polite about the cat's owner getting cat training /care advice....Rather than locking it outside in a cage most of the time.........Cruel, I'm sure you'll agree........
I used to have a lovely Blue Burmese, until my Mother adopted her.........
I'm not by any means a Cat hater, don't worry!
Cheers Jewels


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## Jewels

*RE: Lovely dog photo*



aunt kymmie said:


> Fishercats? What's that??


Hi there Aunt Kymmie,
I just wanted to complement you on that lovely dog photo which you've (somehow - I can't work it out myself!) managed to attach to your logon....Is that a pedigreed sable German Shepherd?
I have a pedigreed darker coloured one myself/ the local police dogsquad are interested in her puppies/ when I get around to breeding her.....AND THEY"RE RIGHT!..........
She's super smart/ superfast/ a good sniffer/ an excellent 'highjumper'/ run's like the wind/ obedient and has a good temperament!....attributes which I will be proud to sell a puppy to police for, I'm sure she will be too!.....I noticed a 'dogforum' the other day when doing other things/ might 'meet' you there one day!
I'm an absolute German Shepherd fanatic! I've had one at my side for the last 38 years...

SOMEONE'S REMINDING ME IT'S WALKTIME SOON!......Must go soon............!
Cheers Jewels
PS: A 'fishercat' is a humerous idea!
I can remember trying to 'deflea-wash' my Blue Burmese and her grabbing the edge of the laundry sink with all 4 feet simultaneously!....If you can picture it it's a picture that's funny, as I'm sure you'll agree!! Don't they HATE WATER!


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## aunt kymmie

Jewels-

I don't to stray too far off topic so I'll send a PM in response to your post. We have some stories to share! 

Lupin- As much as I love the looks of rainbows that TB issue has me cautious. I don't think I'd ever keep rainbows but they sure are very pretty fish.


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