# Loss & Death in new tank



## philabsolom (Apr 11, 2010)

Good evening all.

Thought I'd seek some advice here before being told to fix the problem by the shop assistant that involves more money...!!!

Last weekend we brought a biorb life tank 60l. We set up the tank as per the book added the stress zyme and left it running for a week.

On saturday (a full week later) we puchased 6 danio fish (2 x strip, 2 x Spot & 2 x golden) entered the fish to the tank as per instructions.... Fish seemed happy and swimming here there and everywhere. We dropped a little food in on Saturday night but the fished seemed none inerested, but as the shop assistant said they had been fed in the morning we thought nothing of it.

Sunday morning we wake up to find one fish missing....??? and one fish head first in the ceramic stone (it comes with the tank) our 1st death. Fish removed. During the day the 4 fish left didnt seem as energetic and thins evening one fish on the ground on its back....! We got the net and tried helping (carefully) on its front and left for a while but a 2nd loss but also one other missing, 2 left.

We have a heater in the tank which shows 21oc. we have a tetra 6in1 test kit which shows good levels for fish apart from the KH level which is slightly high but not through the roof.

Where have we gone wrong....???

Regards Phil and Allie


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## JohnnyD44 (Dec 5, 2008)

Phil,

First off, welcome to the forum!! Glad you came here for some advice, rather than spending more money at your local fish store (LFS). You will find that a lot of employees aren't very knowledgeable in fish-keeping and are told to push the sale of the products to make money....so, having said that.

You are smack dab in the middle of a cycle. Are you familiar with the aquarium fish cycle?? There's a thread on here regarding it, but I can't seem to locate it. I have it bookmarked at work, someone will give you the link....

Basically when you added your fish(danios were a great choice by the way without knowing it) you added ammonia to your tank. Ammonia comes in several forms, mostly from fish waste, excess fish food and dead fish. Ammonia is toxic to fish. Which is more than likely what killed your fish...

A cycle, pretty much is allowing your tank to build up the strength to handle the ammonia which will naturally be produced (waste and food) and convert it into a less toxic version. Does that make sense?? A fishless cycle is best, because it's less stressful on the fish, but since you have fish, you're going to have to follow a fish-in cycle.

If I were you, I would do an immediate water change, of about 40%. You want to monitor your parameters in your tank. I see you have the tetra 6-in-1 test kit...are they strips or liquid drops? Strips are unreliable and often give misleading results. You would greatly benefit from the API Master Liquid test kit. It will monitor all your parameters you'll need to keep in check. You'll want to do a pwc (partial water change) everytime you detect any sort of ammonia reading. Water changes will help to keep your ammonia at a tolerable level (ideal is 0ppm).

Also make sure you are using a water conditioner when you are adding any new water to your tank. If you like API products (they make your stress zyme) you should pick up their Stress Coat. Another great product, and quite popular is Prime. Water conditioners wil remove chlorine as well as any heavy metals that may be present in your tap water.

First things first...do that water change (being sure to add stress coat or prime). Stress zyme doesn't remove chlorine...so be aware.

Hopefully some of this will help you out. This forum is a great place and we've got some smart members, you'll be just fine!!!


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## philabsolom (Apr 11, 2010)

JohnnyD44

Hi Johnny, Thank you for the quick reply. We have noticed that one of the two surviving fish has a torn fin (we believe this to be symptoms of ammonia..?) 

We will go to a store tomorrow and gain a liquid testkit as indeed we do have the strips... (lol we we're told they were good!) and also stock up on the stress coat and zyme as we only had the starter packs (forgot to get that with the fish!!)
We will strip the tank tomorrow as I feel the two missing fish are caught up somewhere dead releasing more toxins...?

Also the water has got a little cloudy not that noticable but is def not clear....?

Thanks in advance

Phil and Aliie


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Can you post the numbers for your test of ammonia and nitrite? "Good levels" can mean something different to different aquarists. Also the pH number, this has to do with ammonia issues.

I am not a fan of Stress Zyme, for reasons I won't go into now. If the store carries Seachem products, I would recommend you get a small bottle of "Stability" which is pure bacteria and having used it I can guarantee that it does work. Add it at the recommended dose on the label, it isn't much; assuming one or both of the existing fish survive, this will establish the nitrification bacteria in a few days. Do not add any more fish.

When you post the numbers I or others will probably have some suggestions, but without knowing the exact (relatively) state of things, it is hit and miss and the fish's health and lives are at stake.

Byron.


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## philabsolom (Apr 11, 2010)

Hi Byron

Unfortunatley we lost the two remaining fish last night..!

Having still not found the two missing fish we are going to change everything tonight after work. Emptying the tank ( hopefully to find the two missing fish trapped under the filtering unit which isnt easy to get to in these tanks..!) Allie is going to the shop to get a test kit and we will run the tank again for a 3-5 days fishless. Will look at posting results as we go.

Phil & Allie


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## karjean (Feb 4, 2010)

Phil and Allie, the fishless cycle and the cycle with the sacrificial fish will take 4-6 weeks to complete.
Are you planning to add some live plants in the aquarium? As Byron was mentionning on previous threads, the cycle would be almost none existant since the plants would take care of the ammonia, nitirte and nitrate levels. Byron or somebody else could elaborate more on this topic. So this could be an option if you are starting over again.


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## philabsolom (Apr 11, 2010)

Karjean

I was told (at the aquarium Shop) with the biorb tanks and the ceramic stones that live plants isn't really an option plus there is nothing for the roots to bed in with the ceramic rock unless we found a boulder or something with a dip in it to fill with sand and roots can take hold of something...

http://www.biorbreviews.org/biorb-aquarium-reviews/biorb-life-16-gallon-review

As the write up state's just add water and fish..... Yeah Right..!

We have simply the ceramic media (stones) two plastic plants to give the fish someplace to hide and a filter surely that's it...

The detailed booklet states fill with water turn on filter add the sachet of stress coat 24hrs add the stress zyme 24 hours add fish..... How come youstate 4-6 weeks..?

Confused . com..


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## JohnnyD44 (Dec 5, 2008)

you say you have ceramic stones...meaning what? are they like big decorative stones?

does your tank a subtrate?? gravel or sand bottom?? if you have a gravel bottom, you surely can add plants!!! (maybe change lighting though)

i've never had or seen a biorb system, so I'm not very familiar with it...hopefully someone can elaborate on that.

since all your fish are now dead, you can look into a fishless cycle....which is easier and less stress on the fish that would've been in there....I'm at work and after 3 hours of stupid meetings, I can get down to what matters.....the fish forum!!! 
here's the link i was talking about in my first response:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-aquariums/aquarium-cycle-252/

I would read up on that...

were you able to get a reading of your water??


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I am also unfamiliar with this setup; I read through the pages you linked but no where does it explain how this is different with respect to the biological nitrification cycle and bacteria, so I must assume it is the same as other aquaria. I am naturally skeptical of any product that claims to short-cut nature, so I must assume the bacteria cycle will develop and remain in this as in any aquarium.

Without live plants, it takes 2-8 weeks normally for the nitrification bacteria to colonize an aquarium. If you read the sticky article by iamntbatman on cycling you'll understand the process. This happens in your aquarium as in any other. http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...inners-guide-freshwater-aquarium-cycle-38617/

The biological supplements, like Stability I mentioned or StressZyme, add live bacteria to jump-start the cycling process. There have to be fish or some source of ammonia in the tank or this is wasted. Bacteria need food, and for nitrosomonas bacteria ammonia is the food; they convert it to nitrite, then nitrospira bacteria appear and use the nitrite and nitrate is produced; partial water changes keep the nitrates within reasonable limits. So using Stability when fish go in the tank will add a colony of bacteria that will multiply as ammonia is produced by the fish. The bacteria always exist at the level necessary to handle the ammonia and nitrite respectively. If ammonia increases, nitrosomonas bacteria multiply (within 9 hours); if it decreases, the bacteria die off.

As this is a 16g aquarium, I would add 2-3 small fish like danio, wait a few days, then add 2-3 more. This allows the bacteria to multiply in proportion. Use Stability for the week.

On danios, they are shoaling fish which means they prefer to live in groups and will be less stressed in a group rather than 2 or 3 fish. Each species requires a group, so given your 16g aquarium I would say 5-6 of one species, plus perhaps some bottom fish for contrast? Or depending upon what you like.

Byron.


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## karjean (Feb 4, 2010)

Phil and Ally, like Johnny and Byron, i am not familiar with the biorb tank set-up and ceramic stones you have. Byron is right, we cannot short-cut nature's course. You do have the choice of re-starting either way. Do not hesitate to ask any questions on your aquarium, somebody will more than likely have an answer. Good luck


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## JohnnyD44 (Dec 5, 2008)

since you are restarting....unless you can do plants, which would be the quickest and easiest.....I would choose the fish-less cycle.....

is there any more information you could provide for us on your current set-up???


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## jas187 (Apr 13, 2010)

Anyone else think its strange to have deaths within 24hrs? I wouldnt think ammonia could build up that quickly to kill off fish so fast.

Maybe a cleaning chemical or the tank not rinsed out properly before filling up? Just another suggestion.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

jas187 said:


> Anyone else think its strange to have deaths within 24hrs? I wouldnt think ammonia could build up that quickly to kill off fish so fast.
> 
> Maybe a cleaning chemical or the tank not rinsed out properly before filling up? Just another suggestion.


There are several inter-related factors. The fish are stressed due to the change from store tank to home tank, and stress weakens their immune system and may cause other internal problems. Several things cause this stress, and each is cumulative; temperature changes from tank to bag to tank, even minor changes in hardness and pH, possible chemicals in either tank, different environment--brighter light can stress out fish, as can open environments affording no security, etc. When a stress-weakened fish is then suddenly exposed to elevated levels of ammonia and cannot escape, further stress and internal damage results, which may kill the fish quickly or cause it to linger for weeks and even months before something else triggers it.

We do it so often that we fail to realize the significant impact that simply netting a fish out of one tank and putting it in another can have on that fish. The fact that the fish loses its colouration (fade as we term it) is simply a visible sign that it is suffering from something.


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## karjean (Feb 4, 2010)

On our fist attempt, we had two sacrificial fishes to start the aquarium then added 4 more two weeks later without checking the water. Within four days, we had lost all the fishes, both of my daughters were really traumatised about the losses. It could happen hours like it could be days.


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## philabsolom (Apr 11, 2010)

Hi Guys and Girls

Well we did loose all the fish unfortuantley after much effort in trying to save so we have started again with changes...

We have changed the ceramic rock to start and have added some larger decorative stones simply around the filter and added aquarium gravel all around this we have also now added three live plants into the tank.

I was advised by the shop assistant to add:

Nutrafin Aqua+ (Tap water conditioner) & Nutrafin Cycle (biological aquarium suppliment)

We have also brought a API tropical test kit and took a reading on Monday the 12th and results were:
PH = 7.6 High PH = 7.8 Nitrate = 0 NO2 = 0 NO3 = 0 Ammo = 0.25
2nd reading today (14th Wednesday):
PH = 7.6 High PH = 8.2 NO2 = 0 NO3 = 0 Ammo 0.25

Temp is now steady at 22oC

Not sure where to go from here...?

Phil and Alllie


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I assume there are no fish in this tank now? You need something to produce ammonia. "Cycle" I have used years ago; it seemed to work for me. I prefer some other products now, but as you have this one use it. However, you need a source of ammonia. The Cycle quickstarts the bacteria, but without ammonia they will die off within hours. A small hardy fish or two will work, with the Cycle and live plants they will be OK. What fish are you thinking of having in the tank; I prefer using the fish you want from the start, rather than buying something that is "hardy" and then not wanting it.


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## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

This is a biorb. Even if you can't "plant" any plants, you still have options... 
Floating plants- water lettuce, frogbit
Rhizome plants- Java fern, Anubias (tied to rocks, wood, etc)
Mosses- Java, christmas, flame (again, tied to things)

For ammonia, you could have just left one of the dead fish in the tank... Or just buy a male guppy to cycle the tank. After a week, test the water. If ammonia and nitrites are 0 and you have some nitrates, then you can add another fish (after a 25% water change) If you don't have nitrates or if your test shows niTRITE, then it's not cycled yet, just leave the guppy in by himself for another week.

Be careful not to overfeed when you're doing a fish-in cycle.


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## philabsolom (Apr 11, 2010)

We have put a small handful of food into the tank as was advised this would help with the ammonia levels...?

We did discuss getting a couple of molly's.....?

So if i get a molly on it's own a plave in the tank (gradually) how long should I leave it before doing the water change or is this just a matter of checking the test results hours after introducing...?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Mollies are not good fish for new tanks. They are very highly sensitive to ammonia. A molly breeder in Texas (I think it was) pointed this out. Of course, live plants would help this...

And you mentioned adding live plants earlier--following up on redchigh's advice, what exactly are the plants?


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## PaperclipGirl (Feb 7, 2010)

Scratching my question and answers -


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## karjean (Feb 4, 2010)

I had used two platy's to start the tank and they seemed fine.


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## philabsolom (Apr 11, 2010)

Hi All

Sorry for the delay.. I can't remember the name of the plants we have but they are three of the same, in a black basket like holder... Told that the kind I have will be good for the size tank I have... We will See.

So we have had the tank running with nothing it it for a week (except plants) took a water sample to the shop (just to double check the radings we took were good) and pleasing to now we have all perfect conditions bar one thing and thats the nitrate level is a little high and was suggested that as we have the plants in there it would be due to this...? We have taken the plants out for the last three days and nitrate levels have dropped and conditions are perfect. 

We are looking at getting three Guppies to put in the tank to start and put the plants back in at the same time...?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Plants will not cause nitrates to be high, quite the opposite. Those of us with well-planted aquaria have low nitrate levels, usually below 10ppm and often zero. This makes no sense to me.

Having live plants in the tank when fish are introduced will help considerably. Plants require nitrogen, and their preferred source is ammonium. Fish produce ammonia which the plants can change into ammonium and then assimilate as nutrient. This obviously benefits the fish tremendously.

Byron.


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## philabsolom (Apr 11, 2010)

I went to the same store but had another boy look at my water results and was told by him (after I explained we had takenthe plants out etc etc)
He said that made no difference as (like Byron just said) it's not the plants and maybe from not putting enough water conditioner in. The boy explained to add another cap full of the aqua cycle solution I have and water should be good in 24hrs...!

Amazed how the same shop can say two completely opposite things. Think i'll stick to this forum in future...!


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## Pep (Dec 29, 2009)

+1 on the fishless cycle as Johnny suggests when there is no plants in the tank. There is always a risk of what you encountered on your first attempt going the fish in the tank cycle route no matter what the LFS tells you. It is always tough losing fish especially on your first attempt. A test kit is definetly the way to go so you can track and log your info daily to watch the cycle go through its..umm..well.. cycle

I have recently added 9 zebra danio's in my 90g and they are awesome. They dart around and are very active and entertaining. As usual Byron is right (He was my main source of info as I learned this great hobby) that the Danio's prefer to be in larger shoals. They tend to chase each other around a bit that way which is fine. But if you have too few they might chase other types of fish instead and they are not as happy. I did some research online and a lot of info said they are aggresive fish. A few people on here told me they are not really aggresive but hyper. Put them in a large enough group and they will leave other fish alone and be happy chasing and darting around with their own kind. I can tell you that the latter is exactly what they did in my tank. I hope if you go back with danio's everything works out for you. Best of luck!!!


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