# Cyanobacteria in the freshwater planted aquarium



## mikey5598 (Jan 30, 2013)

Hello Byron and everyone else,
I was wondering if you could share a bit of wisdom. I have read on some of your posts that circulating pumps in a planted tank were not really beneficial and may actually do more harm than good by depleting co2. I have a planted 55 gal. Aquarium with sand substrate on top and Eco complete and other dirt underneath. In my previous tank which was all dirt I was having the same issue until I installed a circulating pump after which it cleared it right up. I'm changing 30 percent of my water once a week and when I do, I suck up the green stuff but by the next week when it's time to do a water change it comes back. My parameters are 76 deg, ph of 7.5 nitrate 10 ppm ammonia 0 nitrite 0. Any tips would be greatly appreciated. I'm using Rena xp2 filtration, 2 24 inch coralife light fixtures with 4 6700 k t5 bulbs 14 watts 
each. I went ahead and placed a circulating pump in my tank but don't really like it. I don't over feed, so was just wondering if adding more plants would get rid of this problem. In other words, being a heavily planted tank I would assume that there are dead spots at the bottom of the tank. My tank is planted, but not that heavily at the moment. Sorry Byron about posting in the wrong place. Kind of a lengthy question, but any tips would be greatly appreciated.



Read more: View Profile: Byron


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## MoneyMitch (Aug 3, 2009)

having a algae issue or just a cyano problem? x8 tubes if i understand right is wayyyyyyyyy to much light without any co2 injection and low plants. that just breeds problems and imbalance. with that much light add some more plants and co2 to see a cutback of the algae and cyano. or cut back atelast half of that light untill you get some co2.


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## Aurie (Jun 22, 2012)

14 watts on a t5 is normal output.. a 55 gallon aquarium is 48" long, so he would have 2 of these side by side.. each has 2 bulbs for 4 bulbs total

Freshwater Aquarium Lighting » Aqueon® Freshwater T5 Light Fixture | PetSmart


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## mikey5598 (Jan 30, 2013)

Thanks Aurie, and Moneymitch and yes I am doing pressurized Co2.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

How long is your light period now? Maybe they are just on too long.

More plants can never hurt.

Jeff.


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

I think the root cause of cyanobacteria is more excess 'nutrients' than light. Do you have high nitrates and/or phosphorus in the tank? Lowering these, in addition or in conjunction to increased volume/frequency of water changes, may resolve the problem.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

AbbeysDad said:


> I think the root cause of cyanobacteria is more excess 'nutrients' than light. Do you have high nitrates and/or phosphorus in the tank? Lowering these, in addition or in conjunction to increased volume/frequency of water changes, may resolve the problem.


True, if CB is what it is.

With the really light coloured sand I might wonder if it's just a little mulm showing up. Increasing circulation would serve to not let this settle and it would get sucked up in the filter.

My tank has higher circulation than I intended so it doesn't even get any kind of buildup on the bottom, I try to vacuum the sand and my pail has practically nothing to show for it... even when I let it go for two weeks.

Jeff.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Cyanobacteria is caused by excess organics. Without organics, cyano is not going to appear, regardless of light, water flow, etc. I have 7 tanks running, four of which have very little water movement as they are filtered with a single sponge filter, and they range from 10g, 20g, 29g and a 3-foot 33g. If minimal or low water movement were responsible, these tanks would be covered in cyano.

I have had cyano in one tank, twice. This was my former 70g setup, which had a canister filter the same as it does now, and the same as my 90g and 115g. Again, water movement has nothing to do with cyano. Nor does light, though too much light, in the presence of organics, can trigger it. And too few water changes, overstocking, over-feeding...these can contribute too.

To make sure I understand things correctly, mikey: the light is 4 24-inch T5 NO tubes, you have CO2 diffusion, and a partial soil/Eco-complete substrate. How long is the light period daily? And I assume the CO2 is not left running during darkness (= tank lights off)?

Also, could you post a photo, just in case this is not cyano but is more normal as another member suggested. And a photo of the tank to see the plant level would help.

Byron.


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## mikey5598 (Jan 30, 2013)

I do 30 percent water changes once a week. I usually run my lights for 9.5 hours. As far as feeding, I feed my fish once a day and they generally eat just about everything in 5 minutes. What little does happen to fall to the bottom I have two Amanos that take care of that. I've attached a picture of my tank, but just did a water change last night, so I just got rid of all the green slime that was accumulating. 

my Tank. - 55 gallon Freshwater fish tank


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## mikey5598 (Jan 30, 2013)

Not sure about the phosphorus but my nitrates are only 10ppm. And I do turn off co2 at night.


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## Aurie (Jun 22, 2012)

This is an image of cyanobacteria in my local Petco tank. Its why I don't buy plants or fish from them. Its normally greener bit its the greenish brown stuff on the base of the plant and on the gravel. When you touch it it free floats in a sheet. I had it in my 10 gallon because i had 6 white cloud mountain minnows and their 27 babies in the tank. While I did good water changes the hikari baby fish powder was also partially to blame. I did a whole box of EM and kept up on water changes as directed on box and it cleared up
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

Try killing the lights and suspending feeding until the cyano dies off.

Then resume with less lighting (duration) and feeding and adjust until the plants thrive but not the cyano/algae.


my .02


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Mikey, is what you had the same as what is showing in the photo Aurie posted? Because that is cyanobacteria. It is slimy, easily comes off with your fingers, will stain your fingers and anything else green, etc. In my tank is was much brighter green, but cyano can be red, green, almost black, or anything between.

You will have better results when the plants are fuller; right now they are minimal so not doing a lot with respect to nutrients/organics.

And here I must mention the soil. This is usually a high source of organics, depending upon where it came from. It would not surprise me at all if the cyano is due to the soil leeching organics into the water. Not suggesting pulling it out, but only pointing out this likely source. Again, more plants or increased plant growth should help.

I would reduce the light duration down to 8 hours daily. I would also increase the water changes to at least half the tank volume once weekly. The issue with both suggestions is to limit the light and organics to prevent cyano from taking hold. There has to be a balance, and clearly this is not occurring (assuming cyano is the issue).

Byron.


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## mikey5598 (Jan 30, 2013)

YES, thank you Byron I think you've helped me figure it out. I also believe that my culprit is the soil under the sand, I mixed my Eco complete with this expensive supposedly real fertile volcanic soil I bought at my LFS. I think it's a little too fertile LoL. I was really noticing the cyano at the base of some of my plants. It is a light green color like in the picture and where it was more concentrated it was a bit darker and slimy looking. Stinks too. I could smell it when I had removed it to my bucket.
So thank you soo much for your help and everyone else who has been trying to help me. I will try what you said and remove more water, add a bit more plants and let the ones I already have get abit bigger. Thank you!


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## Aurie (Jun 22, 2012)

Also - Cyano makes your tank STINK like a swamp. I did my water change and OMG my roomate had to leave the room as I dumped the water outside my living room door (for my rose bushes) .. When your tank stinks worse than PRIME then you know you have a problem LOL.. ok it's not a laughing matter, but it was in my case. I gassed out my roomate without even farting hehe


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## mikey5598 (Jan 30, 2013)

I know what you mean Aurie, I went and dumped that stinky crap out in my backyard. Good fertilizer lol.


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## xfatdannx (Feb 11, 2013)

I am having the same issue but i think mine was induced by light. I was having minimal algae problems before, but i went out of town with my band for the weekend on the 15th and 16th. Came back to discover i left the timer on "on" not "timer". I had turned the lights on early Friday before leaving trying to make sure everything would be okay while i was gone and i just made it all worse. 

So i am feeding daily with hardly any food making it to the bottom. Water changes are either every day to every other day depending on how much "slime" accumulates. With it just run its course eventually? Should i remove plants and clean them as the slime does not just slide right off them or the lava rock? Thanks in advance.


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

xfatdannx said:


> I am having the same issue but i think mine was induced by light. I was having minimal algae problems before, but i went out of town with my band for the weekend on the 15th and 16th. Came back to discover i left the timer on "on" not "timer". I had turned the lights on early Friday before leaving trying to make sure everything would be okay while i was gone and i just made it all worse.
> 
> So i am feeding daily with hardly any food making it to the bottom. Water changes are either every day to every other day depending on how much "slime" accumulates. With it just run its course eventually? Should i remove plants and clean them as the slime does not just slide right off them or the lava rock? Thanks in advance.


 
I would not remove live plants.

As stated before just kill the light and suspend feedings. The cyano will die off providing nutrients for the plants. So you rebalance the tank. The resuming your original lighting will help assure the cyano stays away and the plant thrive.


my .02


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## xfatdannx (Feb 11, 2013)

i just did a 50% water change and tried to remove by hand...will let you know what happens...also cutting my light down by 1 hour at the end of the day.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

As I have said previously here and in other threads, cyanobacteria is caused by high organics. Obviously light has to be present. But without reducing organics you will not be able to remove cyano.

If I read your post correctly, the light was left on for several days. Cyano is the least of your worries. Light 24/7 is highly stressful on fish, as it deprives them of the needed period of complete darkness. You can read more here if interested:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-articles/lighting-how-affects-freshwater-fish-81982/

It is very common for fish to come down with ich (white spot) under such circumstances, so keep a very close eye out. Ich is caused by stress, and in this case stress occurs due to the continual light.

Back to the cyano. Do water changes, vacuum the substrate, remove as much as you can with your fingers (prior to the water change, as it falls to the substrate and can be siphoned off). Feed sparingly. Don't add plant fertilizers for a couple weeks.

Byron.


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## xfatdannx (Feb 11, 2013)

This cleaning process was in part to remove fertilizer, as i had osmocote in the substrate (and will no longer be using it). This was added AFTER the "slime" started showing up. After the water change, Nitrates were lowered, and fish stress levels were obviously lowering as more natural colors were starting to return. Will keep an eye out for ich. 

I think the light started the cyano, and then adding the ferts just fed it as my nitrates were at about 60ppm a day or two after adding ferts.


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## pop (Aug 29, 2012)

Hello all:
I have come to believe that cyanobacteria might be a nitrogen fixer and could be converting nitrogen from the air, air consists of more than 70% nitrogen and might be represented in the water column.
pop


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

I'm pretty sure that nitrogen off gases quickly from water, more so than CO2, so I doubt that it would be much of a factor in feeding a nitrogen fixer. Someone with some working knowledge of partial pressures would be able to better answer that though, I'd have to refresh my memory on that one.

Jeff.


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## pop (Aug 29, 2012)

Hello:
is it possible that atmosphere nitrogen dissolves in water and maybe pressure is related to how fast organic nitrogen is dissolved and saturation levels reached. Organic nitrogen may be important to the micro ecology of the water column. By gassing out do you mean evaporation into the atmosphere?

NOTE: POP’S OPINION IS NOT ASSOCIATED WITH ANY FACT OR RESEARCH, IF THERE IS ANY RELATIONSHIP WITH A KNOWN FACT OR TRUTH OR SCIENCE THAT RELATIONSHIP IS ACCIDENTAL. 

pop


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

pop said:


> NOTE: POP’S OPINION IS NOT ASSOCIATED WITH ANY FACT OR RESEARCH, IF THERE IS ANY RELATIONSHIP WITH A KNOWN FACT OR TRUTH OR SCIENCE THAT RELATIONSHIP IS ACCIDENTAL.
> 
> pop


So what you are saying is that this is purely fictional...:roll:



pop said:


> is it possible that atmosphere nitrogen dissolves in water and maybe pressure is related to how fast organic nitrogen is dissolved and saturation levels reached. Organic nitrogen may be important to the micro ecology of the water column. By gassing out do you mean evaporation into the atmosphere?


It does dissolve in water to somewhere around 20ppm at 1 atmosphere at around room temperature.

Ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are far more readily dissolved in water so the N2 will not affect their respective concentrations in any easily measurable way. Seeing as air is always about 78% N2 this is a constant factor and not something that we can change and even if we bumped it up to 100% the water will not absorb much more than the atmospheric air baseline.

By off gassing I am suggesting that the concentration of N2 dissolved in the water will not increase past the approximate 20ppm level from the air. If there is a source of N2 from within the tank it will form micro bubbles of undissolved gas and escape to the surface. This is what happens when divers get the "bends" as the nitrogen gas comes out of solution in the blood stream and cannot be off gassed fast enough through respiration. It only builds up due to the increased pressure under the water. As the air is breathed (with it's 78% N2 content) it diffuses into the blood. At depth, say 90 feet, the pressure is equivalent to 4 atmospheres (this affects the air breathed by compressing it) which means that there is just more N2 per breath which will dissolve into the blood that much more readily due to the pressure. 

NH3 concentration can be as high as 500,000ppm (yes that is the same as half of the water being ammonia) but this cannot happen in a natural setting as there would never be that much ammonia to be dissolved in the water. The point being that ammonia is so readily dissolved that a little N2 won't affect it.

For reference, CO2 can be as high as 1,500ppm, but again, this is not possible as a 100% pure CO2 atmosphere would be needed to do this.

There are some charts that reference gas solubility in water at this link. I knew the reasoning but didn't realize the numbers would be so large for CO2 and NH3.

Sorry, no proof reading time this time.

Jeff.


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## pop (Aug 29, 2012)

Hello JDM:
The possibility of what I think or may say being fiction is acceptable notion as far as I am concerned.…… I take great joy in distorting facts and truths by omission and speculation. Have you ever left out an aspect of a truth just to make your story better? I have.

I like what you said about the bends and the build up of nitrogen in body fluids. Can this happen to fish as well? can fish have nitrogen bubbles in their blood and other fluids. If this is the case then can nitrogen build up in body fluids have an effect on the osmoregulation process or respiration. 

Its been fun
pop


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

I think we've sidetracked this thread Pop.

I may omit certain facts under certain circumstances but not when it comes to arguments that rely on factual representation. If the facts that I know lead me to a different conclusion due to a differing point of view or conflict with some one else's facts, I'd prefer to have it all out on the table rather than having to backtrack and reveal "hidden" facts.

Fish don't breath air, and the water has a very low N2 content so they cannot have it build up in their blood. On the other hand fish can have a "barotrauma" if they are taken from depth quickly, their swim bladders can rupture due to the same laws that cause the nitrogen to be able to bend a diver. Death from being bent is due to the nitrogen bubbles entering the heart and other damage can be caused in the sub dermal layers, muscles, lungs and other areas of good blood flow as the bubbles are captured in various veins. 

Anyway. I think that wraps that topic at least in this thread.

Jeff.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Getting back to the issue of cyanobacteria, it is true that nitrogen is involved. For those wanting a brief summary, this site (UC at Berkley) has one:
Life History and Ecology of Cyanobacteria

Some aquarists advocate increasing nitrate to combat cyanobacteria, holding that it occurs when nitrate is very low. There are two problems with this. First, I and many others have tanks with near-zero nitrate and never see cyanobacteria in these. Second, and much more important, is the fact that nitrates do affect fish. There is no sense in putting fish at risk just to deal with cyanobacteria when it can be eliminated more safely.

Byron.


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## xfatdannx (Feb 11, 2013)

@Byron - I am doing about 20-30% water changes a day to try and keep my Nitrates down. As stated previously, they spiked after i added ferts. Also as stated the cleaning out of my take was to remove ferts from substrate. Now, you say the cyano feeds off the phosphate? Is that correct? Should that be the next thing i look at testing/removing from my tank? Or should i be adding more plant? (Such as anacharis that gross SUPER fast)? Thanks for your help. I am checking out your other link now.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

xfatdannx said:


> @Byron - I am doing about 20-30% water changes a day to try and keep my Nitrates down. As stated previously, they spiked after i added ferts. Also as stated the cleaning out of my take was to remove ferts from substrate. Now, you say the cyano feeds off the phosphate? Is that correct? Should that be the next thing i look at testing/removing from my tank? Or should i be adding more plant? (Such as anacharis that gross SUPER fast)? Thanks for your help. I am checking out your other link now.


I know nothing of the link (if there is one) between phosphates and cyano. Cyano is organics-related. Unless you have high phosphates in your source water, this is not likely to be an issue.


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## xfatdannx (Feb 11, 2013)

I'm still fairly new to the aquarium hobby, are there specific "nutrients" you are referring to, just nitrates?

I've also gone back to feeding every other day rather than every day. Should that combined with water changes help balance out "nutrients"?

RE: "reading the link you posted" ... i was talking about the Life history of cyano. Kinda neat how basically all live on land probably wouldn't exist without it and yet i want it gone...

Edit: Duh number 2, what i am doing now, is what you said to do. I reread, and i hate reading in the first place 

p.s. thanks for all your help Byron, you have been in on almost every post i have started here and you always have something useful to contribute. You are a good source of knowledge.


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

xfatdannx said:


> I'm still fairly new to the aquarium hobby, are there specific "nutrients" you are referring to, just nitrates?
> 
> ...
> .


Not just nitrates. Plant life uses nitrogen, phosphates, potassium, several others, plus light and carbon. And produce plant tissure and oxygen.

But not every plant has to use ammonia/nitrates for nitrogen. Some plants be it soybeans in a farmer's field or cyano in our tanks can take nitrogen from nitrogen gas instead.

Plus plants consume ammonia/nitrates but also other things like low oxygen bacteria. The bacteria actually "reverse" got forward aerobic bacteria cycle and reduce nitrates to nitrItes and then to nitrogen gas. So at the surface of the substrate you can have a low oxygen, high co2 environment which is returning nitrogen gas.

So IMHO what can happen is you go for several months. Things are doing great. Tanks look great. Plants thriving. Then one day you notice a little slime (blue/green Fw, red marine) on the substrate/rocks. Then that initial slime gets bigger and bigger and in a very short while everything in the tank is covered.

What happened? Nitrates went to unmeasureable values because bacteria as well as plants consumed the nitrates. So the cyano started consuming the nitrogen gas and phosphates and rapidily bloomed.

Meanwhile the ammonia/nitrate plant life had less phosphates available so started being starved.

As a result the tank rapidily is becomming cyano dominated vrs plant dominated.

If you kill the lights and stop adding food, the cyano will die off faster then the plant life. Plus the less food reduces phosphates as well as generally reducing the bio load. So the cyano dies off and returns the nutrients (including the nitrogen gas-nitrogen) to the aerobic bacteria cycle and the plant life.

So you rebalance the tank in favor of the plant life at the expense of the cyano.

Then you adjust lighting and feeding so the plants remain in control and the cyano is held at bay.

At that point you still cyano just not huge noticable levels. What in fact may be happening is cyano is returning nitrogen to the plants just like farmers rotate crops to return nitrogen in fields.


my .02


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

> I'm still fairly new to the aquarium hobby, are there specific "nutrients" you are referring to, just nitrates?


I'm not sure where this comes from...I was mentioning organics previously as the cause of cyanobacteria. Organics refers to all plant and animal/fish matter that is dead and gets broken down by bacteria; dead plant leaves, dead fish, fish waste, uneaten fish food, etc are organics. As these are broken down, nutrients are released and the plants use them. Cyano occurs when the organics reach levels beyond what the system can handle, i.e., excess organics.

Nitrate is the third stage in nitrification, as ammonia is changed into nitrite which is then changed into nitrate. Obviously excess organics will likely result in an increase in nitrate, though not necessarily. But high nitrate is suggestive of high organics.



> I've also gone back to feeding every other day rather than every day. Should that combined with water changes help balance out "nutrients"?


This will help reduce organics, which will help get rid of cyanobacteria, which will help restore a healthy biological balance, yes.

Don't hesitate to ask questions, that is what the forum is for, sharing our knowledge and helping each other. Keep us posted on progress. But remember, it can take time to eliminate cyanobacteria if you do it the correct way, which is by cleaning up the organics. Water changes during which the substrate is vacuumed (get down into it, not just the surface) play a big role in this cleanup, along with reducing the incoming organics.

Byron.


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## xfatdannx (Feb 11, 2013)

Byron...The hard part for me is getting into the substrate to vacuum. I have small plants like Crypt Parva, that have cyano on them, and disturbing the substrate no only will disturb their growing but also uproot them. Any suggestions? When i did today's water change i kinda rubbed things with my fingers to get it all floating and then then vacuumed it out while it was floating.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

You've got gravel that is pretty deep, at least it looks it, that lets stuff settle deeper and you just won't be able to get it out without a lot of disturbing which is what is going to affect the plants. Not that you are going to change it but that is why sand is superior to gravel, not much can really settle in, it sits on top and you just suck if off the surface. Even thinner a gravel layer is helpful.

If a thorough cleaning will already uproot your crypts perhaps you can remove some of the gravel next time as well?

Jeff.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

xfatdannx said:


> Byron...The hard part for me is getting into the substrate to vacuum. I have small plants like Crypt Parva, that have cyano on them, and disturbing the substrate no only will disturb their growing but also uproot them. Any suggestions? When i did today's water change i kinda rubbed things with my fingers to get it all floating and then then vacuumed it out while it was floating.


That's fine. It is in the spaces where there are no rooted plants that you can dig down a bit.


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## xfatdannx (Feb 11, 2013)

so i have been doing minimum 20% water changes each day, cut back feeding to once every three days (feed, 2 days off, feed..) And it seems to be coming back more spread out but not as dense...is this progress?


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## MoneyMitch (Aug 3, 2009)

i woudl say any type of reduction is a good thing, persistance is usually key to sucess in aquariums in my experience.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Yes. It took me a good 2 months, maybe longer, to get rid of it.


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## equatics (Apr 26, 2012)

I have a sort of interesting case of cyano in my 10 gallon tank right now. btw, I thought that some of the eelements of mulm were good nutrients... Anyway, luckily for me, the cyano started small and has remained in a few specific locations. What I have been doing is 50% water changes and siphoning off the cyano, using whatever techniques I can. It's a clear plastic tube with smaller inner diameter, like 1/4" or 1/8" x 6 feet that I bought at the hardware store, and it is working very well for me. However, the cyano keeps taking over where it was before.

Steven


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## xfatdannx (Feb 11, 2013)

Just keep it up. Sounds like you are doing the right, as thats what i was instructed to do also.


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## VerdantGrotto (Nov 22, 2012)

xfatdannx said:


> so i have been doing minimum 20% water changes each day, cut back feeding to once every three days (feed, 2 days off, feed..) And it seems to be coming back more spread out but not as dense...is this progress?


I know water changes can become taxing to your time when they're performed on a daily basis. I've had that frustration myself. I found a battery operated filtered gravel vacuum that could help with the excess organics. I was actually filtering water through a filter pad and into a bucket every other day until I found the gravel vac. The gravel vac will not remove the water, just the junk at the bottom. I imagine you could Google/Bing the device and find the cheapest one. I ordered mine through Dr. Fosters. I'd like to also state the obvious that this shouldn't replace the process of "W/C's" but should help.

As far as the "progress" your asking about above... I'd like to say one of my favorite quotes I've seen on this (or any) website/forum is _"Nothing Good happens fast in an Aquarium"_ ... so keep up the good work


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## xfatdannx (Feb 11, 2013)

I doubt this alone was the cause, but i may have been feeding the Cyano unintentionally. I was gravel vac-ing today, and i got a little close to my glossostigma, i disturbed it and up rooted it. It was a patch about a quarter in diameter. There were a few stems about maybe about 10 or even upwards of 15 dead leaves that were below the substrate just decaying. Needless to say i removed the Glosso and cleaned it off, separated a few them to spread around the aquarium, and replanted. Hopefully they will do well. Other than that everything has been the same the last few days. Its still coming back but it is over a wider area but less dense. Hope it clears out soon. 

on another note, i wish i would have known the benefit of sand over gravel before i got in to this. Oh well. Live and learn. I would like to replace substrate but do not want to recycle.


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

xfatdannx said:


> I doubt this alone was the cause, but i may have been feeding the Cyano unintentionally. I was gravel vac-ing today, and i got a little close to my glossostigma, i disturbed it and up rooted it. It was a patch about a quarter in diameter. There were a few stems about maybe about 10 or even upwards of 15 dead leaves that were below the substrate just decaying. Needless to say i removed the Glosso and cleaned it off, separated a few them to spread around the aquarium, and replanted. Hopefully they will do well. Other than that everything has been the same the last few days. Its still coming back but it is over a wider area but less dense. Hope it clears out soon.
> 
> on another note, i wish i would have known the benefit of sand over gravel before i got in to this. Oh well. Live and learn. I would like to replace substrate but do not want to recycle.


 
With a planted tank IME and IMHO you can tear down an existing tank, replace the substrate, replant the plants and refill the tank with the water you took out all without any parameter spikes except for an initial nitrate spike.

Because the plants consuem ammonia directly preventing the dreaded tank crash.

FWIW I also use peat moss trapped under play sand. The peat moss helps keep kh and gh in line.


Still just my .02


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Yes, with plants you really have no cycling issues. I have over the past two years torn down all of my 7 tanks to replace the substrates (all now have play sand except the one with fine gravel). Keep the hardscape (wood, rock) wet, as in a spare bucket or in the spare tank with the fish, without washing, and this helps too.

Byron.


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## xfatdannx (Feb 11, 2013)

Okay so i am still doing water change every day. Feeding one day then two days off. I made this video thursday. Dunno if this can help confirm if it is cyano or not but the spots you see on the substrate are a HUGE improvement from where it was a week and a half ago.

Can you tell, is this Cyano or no? - YouTube

as of tuesday (haven't tested since)

ammonia - 0
nitrite - 0
nitrate - between 10 and 20ppm (hard to tell on color chart)

Tested with API master kit.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

xfatdannx said:


> Okay so i am still doing water change every day. Feeding one day then two days off. I made this video thursday. Dunno if this can help confirm if it is cyano or not but the spots you see on the substrate are a HUGE improvement from where it was a week and a half ago.
> 
> Can you tell, is this Cyano or no? - YouTube
> 
> ...


It's a bit difficult to see exactly. The floating bit seems to be cyanobacteria. But the green on the substrate might be just algae. There is sufficient light over this tank (with no floating plants, plus the white gravel) to cause algae. Cyano too, if organics are present.


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## MoneyMitch (Aug 3, 2009)

the floating bit looks like cyano to me. wouldn't say your tank is in the middle of a cyano bloom by any means though.


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## xfatdannx (Feb 11, 2013)

thanks for the input guys. i just got back from a 2 day trip with the band. I did a water change before leaving and turned the lights off and left them off the whole time. read from multiple people that this helped...i have gavel vac-ed each day the last week and a half to two weeks and what you saw in the video was just last thursday. its 5am local right now so its dark still, got the flash light out to take a quick peak. it looks better. that is for sure. not gone though. Would more plants help make less algae?


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## MoneyMitch (Aug 3, 2009)

xfatdannx said:


> Would more plants help make less algae?


yup!

but algae will never completely stop from growing. your always going to see it and it will always grow. keeping it off the plants and taking the tank over are the only times I get worried. look into some fast growers.


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## xfatdannx (Feb 11, 2013)

i don't really have a problem with algae on the glass, that stuff i have to clean maybe once every 3-4 weeks. Im pretty sure that its cyano though. I have had the lights off for 48 hours as some have suggested. They said it helped them so i am trying it. It seems to be better but then again it doesn't need like to exist, just to turn green. We'll see here when i get the lights back on tomorrow or tuesday. thanks for all the help dudes! appreciate it.


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

xfatdannx said:


> i don't really have a problem with algae on the glass, that stuff i have to clean maybe once every 3-4 weeks. Im pretty sure that its cyano though. I have had the lights off for 48 hours as some have suggested. They said it helped them so i am trying it. It seems to be better but then again it doesn't need like to exist, just to turn green. We'll see here when i get the lights back on tomorrow or tuesday. thanks for all the help dudes! appreciate it.


 IMHO you need to let all the cyano die off which usually tanks more then a couple of days.

After that initial "shock" treatment, then adjust the light and feeding so it stays away. Start with 1/2 of both then if cyano comes back reduce both, if cyano does not return increase both.

my .02


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

xfatdannx said:


> i don't really have a problem with algae on the glass, that stuff i have to clean maybe once every 3-4 weeks. Im pretty sure that its cyano though. I have had the lights off for 48 hours as some have suggested. They said it helped them so i am trying it. It seems to be better but then again it doesn't need like to exist, just to turn green. We'll see here when i get the lights back on tomorrow or tuesday. thanks for all the help dudes! appreciate it.


Let's be clear what you are actually dealing with. As I said in response to the video, the floating blob looks like cyano, but what is on the substrate may just be algae.

Cyhanobacteria is due solely to high organics. Blackouts and similar "fixes" willnot work long-term because until the source--the organics--are dealt with, cyano will return and return. But cyanol is the green/black slime.

Algae is very different. This is due to light and nutrients being out of balance for the plants. Algae will (or should) appear in any healthy aquarium. You cannot avoid it, or you will have an unhealthy tank for fish and plants. You simply keep it under control, and here the light (intensity and/or duration) and nutrient balance are the factors.

Byron.


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## MoneyMitch (Aug 3, 2009)

Byron said:


> Let's be clear what you are actually dealing with. As I said in response to the video, the floating blob looks like cyano, but what is one the substrate may just be algae.
> 
> Cyhanobacteria is due solely to high organics. Blackouts and similar "fixes" willnot work long-term because until the source--the organics--are dealt with, cyano will return and return. But cyanol is the green/black slime.
> 
> ...


+1


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

Byron said:


> ..
> 
> Cyhanobacteria is due solely to high organics. Blackouts and similar "fixes" willnot work long-term because until the source--the organics--are dealt with, cyano will return and return. But cyanol is the green/black slime.
> 
> ...


 
That's the reason I emphasize reduced lighting and feeding after the initial black out. 

Seriously this has worked over 95% of the time on all my fw and marine tanks since the late '70's. And for many other people as well.

Most of whom were extremely surprised and initially thought "it couldn't be that simple".

What happens is you don't have the same environment after the initial blackout by changing the lighting and feeding. You rebalance the tank so the plants are in control again and the cyano stays away. For years and years.

Still just my .02


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## MoneyMitch (Aug 3, 2009)

well seems he is trying ur method here bob with the blacn out and all and then a reduced light period. well see what happens =)


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## xfatdannx (Feb 11, 2013)

the stuff on the substrate is the same stuff on the plant, or at least thats how it looks to me. The way it peels off when i rub it between my fingers is the same as the stuff on the plant, they same color, same consistency. Trying the black out. Its been this way since fri. For you that have done the black out, how long did you go? I notice there are some small brownish clumps of what i assume is the cyano that is no longer photosynthesizing. I have been vac-ing frequently. tomorrow morning will be the next.


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## MoneyMitch (Aug 3, 2009)

sure it will go away but will it come back, treating the problem is easy- solving it usually isn't as easy


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

xfatdannx said:


> the stuff on the substrate is the same stuff on the plant, or at least thats how it looks to me. The way it peels off when i rub it between my fingers is the same as the stuff on the plant, they same color, same consistency. Trying the black out. Its been this way since fri. For you that have done the black out,* how long did you go*? I notice there are some small brownish clumps of what i assume is the cyano that is no longer photosynthesizing. I have been vac-ing frequently. tomorrow morning will be the next.


 
Usually I notice improvement after the first day. And again usually almost totally cleared after 3-4 days with total clearing in a week.

But for stubborn cases I have had to go 2-3 weeks. In one case the tank was still dark green after 2 weeks. Then in a couple of days it was totally clear.

My current 55g on the porch gets 3-4 hours of almost direct sunlight as the only light. It took almost 2 months to clear up but that is the "outlyer". I also had to (obviously) cover the tank. the other tanks I just killed the lights.

my .02


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## xfatdannx (Feb 11, 2013)

Went to the LFS where i got my dwarf sag and glosso today...first time back since i got the glosso...Guess what! They have Cyano in 5 tanks including one that i got my plants from...I bet it piggy backed its way on my plants...I am about 99% sure thats how i got it bc my nitrates never dropped that low for any period of time. My tap water has trace amounts of ammonia, which gets converted to nitrates within a few hours.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

xfatdannx said:


> Went to the LFS where i got my dwarf sag and glosso today...first time back since i got the glosso...Guess what! They have Cyano in 5 tanks including one that i got my plants from...I bet it piggy backed its way on my plants...I am about 99% sure thats how i got it bc my nitrates never dropped that low for any period of time. My tap water has trace amounts of ammonia, which gets converted to nitrates within a few hours.


It is not surprising to see cyanobacteria in store tanks, due to the very high organic level when so many fish are crowded into relatively small tanks. If the store is regular in their tank cleaning/water changing, cyano won't occur.

Regardless ofhgow it got in your tank, it is only going to be there with high organics and light. As we have previously discussed.

As for nitrates, one should aim to have nitrates as low as possible for the health of the fish. I have tanks with near-zero nitrate and never see cyano.

Byron.


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## equatics (Apr 26, 2012)

I think the nitrate issue is another hi tech lotech difference. In hi tech tanks the plants must use up NO3 so fast that you have to feed it to them (fertilize). Although it is said that plants won't take up NO3 while there is still Nitrite and Ammonia in the water. So they must be really revved up.


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## MoneyMitch (Aug 3, 2009)

Nemo the Clownfish said:


> I think the nitrate issue is another hi tech lotech difference. In hi tech tanks the plants must use up NO3 so fast that you have to feed it to them (fertilize). Although it is said that plants won't take up NO3 while there is still Nitrite and Ammonia in the water. So they must be really revved up.


if there is ammonia plants wont use nitrate with rites and ammonia in the water? how is this so when there is constantly ammonia being put into water from fish?


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## equatics (Apr 26, 2012)

MoneyMitch said:


> if there is ammonia plants wont use nitrate with rites and ammonia in the water? how is this so when there is constantly ammonia being put into water from fish?


All I know is: Ammonia is preferred because it takes the least energy exerted to convert it to energy. If there is no available Ammonia, Nitrites will be used at a cost of converting it to energy. If neither of those is present, plants will use Nitrates at almost no energy benefit to the energy it takes to convert Nitrates to Nitrites, then to Ammonia. You may have to read this several times. I don't know the details of how this works but those are the facts that I read about.


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## MoneyMitch (Aug 3, 2009)

Do you have the link to the article
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

It has to do with the need of the plant based on all available nutrients and light. If the concentration is very low in ammonia, even though it is present, the plants in a high light environment will just grab nitrite as needed and the same applies to the nitrate. I have a medium light tank with lots of plants and a decent fish load and yet my nitrates never cross 5 ppm. The nitrogen cycle is mostly bypassed but there are some nitrates produced and, I would say, some nitrates consumed as well. 

Also, difference plants may have different "preferences" and be able to assimilate any nitrogen source at different efficiencies. Some floaters do this better than most but probably because their leaves may be semi emmersed and taking advantage of airborne CO2 and direct intense light due to the proximity of the source. They are their own high tech environment at the surface and can use all nitrogen sources more effectively. I know my immersed penny wort is a lot lighter green than the emmersed on the same stem.

Jeff.


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## equatics (Apr 26, 2012)

MoneyMitch said:


> Do you have the link to the article
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry, I looked but I couldn't find one that I could post here. I'm pretty sure this would be an easy one for Byron, either yea or nay or by explaining how plants metabolize nitrogen and why Ammonia is preferred over Nitrites and Nitrates.

I did neglect something important to this whole picture. When a freshwater plant takes up a molecule of Ammonia, it is no longer available to the Nitrogen Cycle (read "nitrifying bacteria"), so it can't be transformed into Nitrite or Nitrates and all the attendent energy is taken by the plant. And plants love ammonia. When the plant dies, it is converted into back to Ammonnia, which goes through the whole process from the beginning.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

In her book, Walstad cites the scientific studies that determined the preference of various plant species for nitrogen forms. Most aquatic plants prefer ammonium, and in studies where ammonium, nitrite and nitrate were present the plants took up all ammonium first. Then they turned to nitrite. And last to nitrate. Walstad suggests this is likely because plants have to change nitrite and nitrate back into ammonium before they can use it as nitrogen, and this takes more energy/work by the plant, which has the effect of reducing their energy devoted to photosynthesis (growing and reproducing). Plants inherently want to devote energy into photosynthesis, so they have evolved methods to focus on this.

As I think someone said, in well-planted tanks that use the natural method, nitrite will never be detectable with our test kits (it will be too minimal) and nitrate will usually remain very low. My tanks run < 5 ppm nitrate, which is between zero and 5 with the API kit which may mean nearer zero, and many with similar tanks have zero nitrate continually. Using common sense, I assume this is because the plants are grabbing most of the ammonia/ammonium before bacteria/archaea have the opportunity, which means very little ammonia/ammonium gets changed into nitrite and thus very little nitrite to nitrate. Walstad does cite scientific studies which show that plants out-compete bacteria for ammonia/ammonium.

Now, obviously all other factors must be present for this to work. Meaning adequate light to balance the nutrients, and sufficient nutrients (all 17). If something, say carbon (CO2) is insufficient, plants can't photosynthesize fully so any excess ammonia would then presumably be taken up by the bacteria/arachea. Plants can and do take up ammonia as a toxin as well as a source of nitrogen, so this too enters the equation.

Byron.


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## equatics (Apr 26, 2012)

One more thing I remembered - When Nitrates are very low in a planted tank, it probably means that the plants are taking up most or all of the Ammonia. I sort of said this already but I wanted to make it clear. When a plant takes up an Ammonia molecule, it is unavailable to nitrifying bacteria and bypasses the nitrifying bacteria. So the nitrifying bacteria, from ammonia to nitrates, misses that ammonia molecule and it does not end up as Nitrates.


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## xfatdannx (Feb 11, 2013)

loads of info here guys. Awesome! I love it. thanks so much for your contributions.


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## xfatdannx (Feb 11, 2013)

My new game plan for the cyano...

I am cycling a 20 tall right now, once it is done i will move fish over. Then treat the 6g with antibiotics with NO fish in the tank. Then I should be good to go with a QT tank.


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## xfatdannx (Feb 11, 2013)

Well the cyano is STILL coming back, i can not seem to eliminate it. I plan to treat with antibiotic when there are no fish in the tank. Although i did read about treating with Peroxide...anyone else ever heard of or tried this?


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## MoneyMitch (Aug 3, 2009)

ok just to revist here and not to say I told you so but the blackout didn't work like some stated. the next thing I would do is keep the tank extremely clean and free of organics, also in crease surface agitation. this is going to take away major contributors to the cyano and you should start to see a clear up eventually. I would also feed lightly. the h2o2 can oxygenate the water but can alswo stress the plants if mixed too strong.

I would start with keeping tank clean enough to drink from and increasing surface agitation.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

xfatdannx said:


> Well the cyano is STILL coming back, i can not seem to eliminate it. I plan to treat with antibiotic when there are no fish in the tank. Although i did read about treating with Peroxide...anyone else ever heard of or tried this?


Two weeks is not sufficient time to deal with cyanobacteria. It can take months.

The problem with antibiotics is that they can kill some (or all) plants. So wil hydrogen peroxide if dosed in the tank at any level sufficient to deal with cyano. And these things will seep into wood, rock, substrate and be problems later.

Not to mention that if the source of the cyano is not rectified, it will still return down the road.

I've been there, done that...as the saying goes.:-(

Byron.


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## xfatdannx (Feb 11, 2013)

So really, once my fish move to the other tank it would probably be easier for me to tear down a re-cycle it.

i've been keeping my filter on high, its rated for up to a 20g and its only a 6 gal tank. I am running lights no more than 8 hours a day. I reduced feeding to every other day. I don't know what else to do to "keep the tank clean enough to drink"


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## MoneyMitch (Aug 3, 2009)

personally I would try to just get it taken care of with the currecnt system. I know your feeling I had the same with some of my algae, are you always going to teardown when u run into cyano? 

you have tried the blackout - it didn't work maybe atleast try what Byron and I suggested?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

xfatdannx said:


> So really, once my fish move to the other tank it would probably be easier for me to tear down a re-cycle it.
> 
> i've been keeping my filter on high, its rated for up to a 20g and its only a 6 gal tank. I am running lights no more than 8 hours a day. I reduced feeding to every other day. I don't know what else to do to "keep the tank clean enough to drink"


Reading back through this thread, it seems the initial issue was the lights on 24/7 and a buildup of nutrients. This clearly affected the biological balance, and that can take time to re-establish. The only successful way to do this is by targetting the source of the cyano--organics--and then letting the biological balance build properly. This is why I oppose any "quick-fix" which is at best only temporary.

I don't think more water movement has much to do with cyano. I have had it bad right at the filter return.

Not sure what else I can suggest. When i saw this in my 70g, I stopped fertilizing the plants, did a good 50-60% water change every week, deeply vacuuming into the substrate, and manually removing as much of the cyano as I could. It would begin returning a couple days later, so next week the same process. Went like this for 3 months, maybe 4. Then one week, none returned. About 2 months later, it did, so back to the same process, and in another month or two, gone, never to return. I've still no real idea as to why this happened only in this one of seven tanks; it was not heavily stocked with fish either. Temperature was high though, 80F (for the Chocolate Gourami), and I had crypts; I have read that these are commonly related.

Byron.


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## xfatdannx (Feb 11, 2013)

yes the initial bloom happened after a long span of light. I have also concluded that most likely the cyano actually was transfered to my tank from the LFS. I had bought 2 plants there, and when i went back 2 weeks later that tank and at least 5 other all had cyano. I will just continue to clean. Hopefully i will have it under control again one day. 

BC its growing on my fragile crypt parva would you suggest me to try spot treatment w/ peroxide and move those to the other tank? The CP is hard to find around here and i am not buying anything from that LFS again so i would like to keep it if at all possible. 

Thanks again for all your help guys i really do appreciate it.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

xfatdannx said:


> yes the initial bloom happened after a long span of light. I have also concluded that most likely the cyano actually was transfered to my tank from the LFS. I had bought 2 plants there, and when i went back 2 weeks later that tank and at least 5 other all had cyano. I will just continue to clean. Hopefully i will have it under control again one day.
> 
> BC its growing on my fragile crypt parva would you suggest me to try spot treatment w/ peroxide and move those to the other tank? The CP is hard to find around here and i am not buying anything from that LFS again so i would like to keep it if at all possible.
> 
> Thanks again for all your help guys i really do appreciate it.


I would not use any chemical. Aside from my previous reasons [detrimental to plants and fish], one must always remember that an aquarium is a very closed aquatic system. Water chemistry is very, very complex, as is the biology. Every time any substance is added to the water, no matter what it is, it has, or can have, "side effects" of some sort. The aim should always be stability, and the only way to achieve this and keep it is by not adding substances to the mix. Only what is absolutely necessary. This holds for medications too. The less that goes in the water, the better.


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## xfatdannx (Feb 11, 2013)

less is more...i've heard that a lot about different things


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

I would not use any chemicals or antibiotics.

Look at this point you

1) ran 24/7 lighting

2) got a cyano bloom

3) killed the lights

4) system got better

5) cyano came back with lights.

so you have lights with cyano no lights no cyano.

now all you have to do is adjust the lights (less) so the cyano dies off (again) and does not come back.

PS sometimes it takes 2 times but the key is adjusting the lighting and feeding.

my .02


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## xfatdannx (Feb 11, 2013)

went back and removed as much as possible by hand again. My 20gal is about to finish its cycle, nitrites are finally falling and ammonia at a steady zero. I think my 6 may be a little over stocked with 6 black phantoms. I plan to add a few neons after this in hopes to keep waste lower. I am gonna just stay on top of the cleaning and hopefully can have some good news to report one of these days. After much thinking about it i agree that learning to rid it naturally should be my plan of action. Whether it was transfered to my tank on plants or spawned bc of the excessive light i provided that one weekend, i need to learn the right way to rid it bc i am not going to tear down any time something annoying happens. I appreciate everything you have all contributed to helping me resolve this problem. As far as testing my water to keep it clean, would you recommend any other tests other than the 4 that come in the API "master kit" (Ammonia, nitrite,nitrate, and pH)?


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

xfatdannx said:


> went back and removed as much as possible by hand again. My 20gal is about to finish its cycle, nitrites are finally falling and ammonia at a steady zero. I think my 6 may be a little over stocked with 6 black phantoms. I plan to add a few neons after this in hopes to keep waste lower. I am gonna just stay on top of the cleaning and hopefully can have some good news to report one of these days. After much thinking about it i agree that learning to rid it naturally should be my plan of action.


I tend to be succint (rude, blunt, short whatever :lol as I try to keep it simple. We had one very advanced reef keeper with a 75g tank with fast growing sps (hard to keep) corals. Who had cyano. His first reaction was it couldn't be as simple as killing the lights. And it worked but the first time it came back. But after the second time and withfollowon reduced lighting it has stayed away for years.

I think your attitude to go natural as opposed to adding mechanicals or chemicals is really good. Keep us posted.



> Whether it was transfered to my tank on plants or spawned bc of the excessive light i provided that one weekend, i need to learn the right way to rid it bc i am not going to tear down any time something annoying happens. I appreciate everything you have all contributed to helping me resolve this problem. As far as testing my water to keep it clean, would you recommend any other tests other than the 4 that come in the API "master kit" (Ammonia, nitrite,nitrate, and pH)?


I would recommend the api kh and gh kits which can bought as a set for $10-12 or so. I found that kh and gh both rose to high values over years and neons did not do very well. With peat moss in the substrate I found that kh stayed at 4 degrees and gh at 9 degrees for over two years and neons thrived.

So I do value kh and gh not so much for what the actual values are but whether or not they remain at some constant level or slowly increase.


my .02


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

The only test I mess with is pH and this rarely, and even more rarely the nitrate. But after many years, with constant values maintained by my methods, I don't have to worry anyway.

The goal is or should be to obtain a balanced stable environment, and while that can be tricky initially, during the first few months as things are settling, it should be achieved. Adhering to a few basic "rules" ensures it will remain.

But even then, these bouts of cyano, or some type of algae, can occur. We are dealing with nature, even though in a very artificial and closed system. Keep in mind that any change to any part of this complex system is likely to have far-reaching consequences in the system.

Byron.


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## equatics (Apr 26, 2012)

Byron,

I am having a Cyano bloom too. Could you give the details of the balance of the planted tank that is necessary for a healthy tank, or if you have it in your articles, give me a pointer? The Cyano seems to have got more robust in the last week. I'm finding that I have to physically remove the Cyano every other day to keep it in check. This is the only thing I am doing, plus 50% water change when I physically remove it using a clear vinyl tube. I'm reasonably sure that my lights are too bright. I would like very much to bring the tank into a good balance. Trouble is I don't know what to change, except maybe the lighting.

I'm doing a water change today so I will deep vac the gravel.

Thanks a lot, Byron.

Steven


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## equatics (Apr 26, 2012)

Byron,

I am having a Cyano bloom too. Could you give me a refresher on the details of the balance of the planted tank that is necessary for a healthy tank, or if you have it in your articles, give me a pointer? The Cyano seems to have got more robust in the last week. Thanks.

Steven


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Nemo the Clownfish said:


> Byron,
> 
> I am having a Cyano bloom too. Could you give the details of the balance of the planted tank that is necessary for a healthy tank, or if you have it in your articles, give me a pointer? The Cyano seems to have got more robust in the last week. I'm finding that I have to physically remove the Cyano every other day to keep it in check. This is the only thing I am doing, plus 50% water change when I physically remove it using a clear vinyl tube. I'm reasonably sure that my lights are too bright. I would like very much to bring the tank into a good balance. Trouble is I don't know what to change, except maybe the lighting.
> 
> ...


Steven, was there a thread on this somewhere? If so, can you give us the link? Sounds familiar.


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## equatics (Apr 26, 2012)

Here's a post I found but I will look some more because it doesn't give the details.

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-aquarium/high-nitrate-tap-128209/#post1424066


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## xfatdannx (Feb 11, 2013)

So going back to the "organics" causing and feeding cyano. Could that be from an over stocked tank? I've been talking about moving my current fish to a larger tank, could getting a smaller amount of fish with less waste help curb the cyano?


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## equatics (Apr 26, 2012)

Nemo the Clownfish said:


> Byron,
> 
> I am having a Cyano bloom too. Could you give me a refresher on the details of the balance of the planted tank that is necessary for a healthy tank, or if you have it in your articles, give me a pointer? The Cyano seems to have got more robust in the last week. Thanks.
> 
> Steven


Another voice heard from...This was copied from "another board"

*"Blue Green Algae, BGA*

​






* Description*


 


* This isn't a true algae, but a bacteria called cyanobacteria that is able to photosynthesise. Covers everything in a blue/green slimy mat. Easily peels off but grows back again very quickly. It can smell pretty foul. It is very commonly found in the substrate and especially along the front glass where is receives light.*


 


* Cause*




Often caused by very low nitrates. It is fairly common to have it growing in the substrate against the front glass from where it can spread. Sometimes it appears with new setups that have had light and ammonia present at some point. Dirty substrates and filters may also bring it on. Poor water circulation is another possible cause."


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## equatics (Apr 26, 2012)

The Nitrogen fixing property of Cyanobacteria could possibly have something to do with things I have read about low or high Nitrates in the tank. My Nitrates are unreadable:

Cyanobacteria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

Nemo the Clownfish said:


> The Nitrogen fixing property of Cyanobacteria could possibly have something to do with things I have read about low or high Nitrates in the tank. My Nitrates are unreadable:
> 
> Cyanobacteria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


 

+1

(and getting kinda technical also).

What can happen is that nitrates can get low because nitrates are also consumed by anaerobic/anoxic bacteria in addition to plant life. When low the cyano can tank nitrogen gas from the water column and thrive. Which further reduces other netrients like phosphate for the plants. So tank can rapidily become cyano dominated instead of algae plant dominated. and unlike the initialy temporary bloom this bloom is a long term systemic problem. So the basic operation of the tank must be adjusted.

But when you kill the lights the cyano dies off faster then the plants which returns nitrates to the system. So that when lights are returned the plants now are in control again. And by adjusting lights and feeding you can keep the plants in control indefinately. You may even setup a situation where a small unnoticable amount of cyano is created with lights on each day that dies off each night. Effectively pumping nitrogen gas into nitrates to feed the plants.

But in these forums the person with a 6 month aquarium that is getting that first fustrating cyano bloom (after the temporary intial blooms) doesn't need to know all that.

Which is why I say kill the lights and suspend feeding until it dies off.

Anything else is just technical mumble jumble to the new hobbist that only serves to cloud the mind and not uncloud the tank. :lol:


Still just my .02


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

xfatdannx said:


> So going back to the "organics" causing and feeding cyano. Could that be from an over stocked tank? I've been talking about moving my current fish to a larger tank, could getting a smaller amount of fish with less waste help curb the cyano?


I had cyhanobacteria occur when I didn't clean the canister filter; it disappeared solely from cleaning the filter. Overstocking the tank can cause it. Overfeeding the fish can cause it. Neglecting water changes can cause it. Too much light--if organics are present which they usually will be--can cause it.

In all of these,* organics* is the issue. Control (limit) the organics, and balance the light, and you will not see cyanobacteria. Plants help a lot by using organics/nutrients.

Byron.


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## equatics (Apr 26, 2012)

"Bacteria overgrowth, often referred to as bacterial blossom or bloom, will cause cloudiness. In fact, the water may appear to be gray or milky, but the bacteria does does not tint the water yellow, brown or even green. Anytime the water takes on a distinctly yellow or brown tint, the problem is dissolved organic material rather than bacteria, so you can rule out bacterial blossom as the root cause. 

It is wise to remember that there can be multiple issues going on at the same time. So if you have tinted water that is also very cloudy, rather that being clear but tinted, consider the possibility that more than one problem is occurring, and act accordingly.

*DOC - Dissolved Organic Compounds*
You may have heard someone say tinted or cloudy water is caused by DOC, and wondered what that means. DOC stands for dissolved organic compounds, and simply put is any organic matter that has broken down in the aquarium water. It could be fish waste, uneaten food that has decayed, decaying plant parts or even a dead fish that has decomposed. 

All of these sources can result in organic compounds that become dissolved in the water, thus changing the makeup of the water. Can these compounds harm the fish? Yes they ultimately impact the health of your fish, because over time they will contribute to changes in the water chemistry that are harmful to the fish. Dissolved organic compounds also will give rise to unpleasant odors and cause the aquarium to look less attractive. 

*Tannins*
One cause of brown or yellow water that is usually not a problem is tannin. Tannins are present in driftwood, and over time will leach into the aquarium water, staining it yellow to brown. Tannins have the effect of lowering the pH of the water, as well as softening it. For some fish this may be desirable, and even recommended. This is particularly true of fish from South America that require soft acidic water to thrive, and promote spawning."
Copied from http://freshaquarium.about.com/od/problemsolving/a/Yellow-Or-Brown-Aquarium-Water.htm
* Yellow or Brown Aquarium Water *

By Shirlie Sharpe, About.com Guide
​


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## xfatdannx (Feb 11, 2013)

So here is where i am now...I have moved the 6 phantoms from the 6gal to the 20 tall as the 20 tall has finished its cycle. 0ppm for ammonia and nirites and about 10-20ppm nitrates. The nitrates fell off drastically too.

Here is where i am confuse, beaslebob is saying nitrates, or the lack thereof is the cause of cyano and byron is saying that its all organics. Byron, you say you run tanks with little to no traceable nitrites correct? Just wondering if i should start looking to stock it up a little more to add more nitrates to the system and keep it in check, or will it be fine if, in the off chance, i decide just to leave the 6 fish in there by themselves. 

thanks again guys.


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## equatics (Apr 26, 2012)

*Article - Dissolved/Particulate Organics In Aquariums*

Sorry if I'm interrupting you - I'm sure someone will reply to you further down.

I'm copying this entire article from another site because it's so interesting and enlightening.

"Dissolved Organic Compounds Explained       Written by Cecil Griffith 
If you’re like most planted aquarium owners, you want a healthy algae free aquarium. You dose fertilizers regularly and make sure you don’t over do the lighting, but you still manage to have some problems when it comes to fish and plant health. Understanding dissolved organic compounds and how they effect your planted aquarium will help you sustain a enriching environment for your aquatic plants and fish.


*What is a dissolved organic compound?* 
An organic compound is any compound that contains one or more atoms of carbon. Natural waters, freshwater aquariums and saltwater aquariums contain a great variety of soluble organic compounds. These include such compounds as sugars, fatty acids, humic acids, tannins, vitamins, amino acids, proteins and urea. Suspended organic matter in water includes remains of organisms in various stages of decay and living phytoplankton, zooplankton, fungi and bacteria. Sometimes each of the concentrations of individual organic compounds is not measured. Instead it is more common to measure total particulate organic matter, biochemical oxygen demand, or chemical oxygen demand. These variables are indicative of the total quantity of organic matter in water. 

*So where do they come from?*
The major source of dissolved organics in aquaria is the natural biological processes that accompany having a tank full of fish that are fed often. Fish feed, fish wastes and other particulate organic material are colonized by bacteria which break the material down into dissolved substances. The basic step is for particulate carbon to become dissolved carbon. More fish and more fish feed means a higher concentration of organic substances. 

* 
How to control excess dissolved organic compounds?*
There are many ways to control the amount of organic carbon in your system. Remember, there are two general types of organic material: particulate and dissolved. There are ways to remove both from your aquarium. 
First, limit the amount of particulate carbon in your aquarium. This does not mean reducing the number of fish in the tank or reducing the feeding amount (but these would surely help). It means cleaning the mechanical filter component of your filtration systems often.
The filter pad is where a majority of the particulate material will get trapped. If your system is heavily stocked you might have to clean this every couple of days but the reward will be worth it. Organic material trapped on the filter pad is of no benefit to the aquarium environment - remove it often. Some people use charcoal in their filters to help remove some of this material. 
Next, if your aquarium has a substrate; clean it regularly with a siphon action gravel washer. The gravel at the bottom of an aquarium is a good place for particulate organic material to collect - so getting rid of this material will help. 
Getting rid of the organic material on a regular basis will go a long way towards keeping an aquarium healthy and keeping disease away. So how often is a regular basis? 
That has to be decided on an aquarium by aquarium basis. If you have a lot of fish and feed a lot you'll have to clean the mechanical filter and substrate more often than a person with a few fish who feed sparingly. The major way to get rid of dissolved organic carbon is water changes. This is a simple method but most people are a little lazy about this. 
The people with saltwater tanks are very concerned about dissolved organics. They use protein skimmers, meters and control devices for ORP, ozone, and other things specifically made to control the compounds. 
People with freshwater planted aquariums have the added benefit that plants are able to help with this by using some of these organics. By doing 50% water changes, cleaning filters regularly, correct fertilization, not overfeeding, and doing all the necessary maintenance involved helps to promote a healthy aquarium."


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

I suspect that the low nitrates might be a symptom of the cyano. They fix the nitrates and they drop and the cyano shows up. Unless you are testing the nitrates daily, and not many do, you wouldn't know what the timing really was, which came first, the low nitrates or the cyano invasion. There are a lot of unkowns and probably misconceptions about these guys, and I certain don't know much at all but adding nitrates just seems like a grasp at a fix that may not do anything either way and other things that you can do will serve you better.

I have less than 5ppm nitrates in my tank and not because of water changes, it just doesn't rise due partly to lots of plants circumventing the normal cycle that produces nitrates and due to some plants that use nitrates and perhaps some microbiologicals are in place that do as well.

Jeff.


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

xfatdannx said:


> So here is where i am now...I have moved the 6 phantoms from the 6gal to the 20 tall as the 20 tall has finished its cycle. 0ppm for ammonia and nirites and about 10-20ppm nitrates. The nitrates fell off drastically too.
> 
> Here is where* i am confuse*, beaslebob is saying nitrates, or the lack thereof is the cause of cyano and byron is saying that its all organics. Byron, you say you run tanks with little to no traceable nitrites correct? Just wondering if i should start looking to stock it up a little more to add more nitrates to the system and keep it in check, or will it be fine if, in the off chance, i decide just to leave the 6 fish in there by themselves.
> 
> thanks again guys.


And now we know why I don't like to get all technical. :lol:

Plants of various types can use different form of nitrogen and problably all other organics as well.

Just like farmers rotate crops like corn and wheat with soybeans. Because corn and wheat use ammonia/nitrate and soybeans fix nitrogen from the air and form nodgules which return nitrogen to the soil.

The over all idea is that, by whatever process, the slower growng plants we like use some ratio of organics. But less desirable, faster growing forms of plant life may use those organics in another ratios or other forms such as nitrogen gas.

When things get out of balance and the ugly plant life (yea I know in bacteria like cyano) takes off, I simply kill off that plant life by killing the lights. So it dies off and returns those nutrients in the form the desirable plant life can use.

So we can talk limiting nutrients, water changes, anti bacterials, whatever. All of which is confusing especially to the new hobbists.

Just to keep is simple, kill the lights and stop adding food until the uglies die off.

Then adjust lights and feeding so it stays away.

my .02


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Nemo the Clownfish said:


> Sorry if I'm interrupting you - I'm sure someone will reply to you further down.
> 
> I'm copying this entire article from another site because it's so interesting and enlightening.
> 
> ...


This is exactly what I have written over and over on this forum. I could give you dozens of sources for this same information, it has the basis of scientific fact. Thanks Steven for posting.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

xfatdannx said:


> Here is where i am confuse, beaslebob is saying nitrates, or the lack thereof is the cause of cyano and byron is saying that its all organics. Byron, you say you run tanks with little to no traceable nitrites correct? Just wondering if i should start looking to stock it up a little more to add more nitrates to the system and keep it in check, or will it be fine if, in the off chance, i decide just to leave the 6 fish in there by themselves.


First: *Cyanobacteria is caused by organics*, period. Without organics, there is no cyanobacteria. Life on this planet began with cyanobacteria, and organics feed it.

Second: Controlling organics is the only way to deal with cyano, since you are getting at the root cause. Now, organics are obviously present in any aquarium with fish that are fed, as the article Steven cited states. We want a balance so the fish are healthy, the plants have what they need and are thriving, and the less desirables like nuisance algae and cyanobacteria are not present.

Some will cite the lack of sufficient nitrates as the cause of cyano. This does not hold water, when you have aquarists like myself whose aquaria never have higher than 5 ppm nitrate, and some run at zero (with our basic test kits). This is not to say that if organics are beyond what the system can manage, and nitrates are low, cyano may be more likely. Fine. But it is the organics that cause this. As for raising nitrates to supposedly fight cyano, this does not make sense; nitrates do impact fish, so why increase something that is likely to cause stress for fish when it isn't the answer anyway?

Some will cite water current as the culprit. Insufficient current or too much current have both been given as causes. This doesn't have much basis either; I have had cyano in a tank with no filter, and I have had it occur worst right at the filter return spraybar.

Some cite light as the cause. This is partly true, as cyanobacteria is photosynthetic and thus requires light. But hundreds of us have lights over our aquarium and they run for decades with no cyano in sight. Light is just one necessary factor. Which is why doing a blackout is temporary and the cyano will return if the organics are not dealt with.

Hope this helps.

Byron.


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

Byron said:


> ...
> 
> . Which is why doing a blackout is temporary and the cyano will return if the organics are not dealt with.
> 
> ...


 
I agree 110% and then some. :lol:

Which is why after the blackout you must adjust lighting and feeding so the organics can be dealt with by the plants.

still just my .02


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

beaslbob said:


> I agree 110% and then some. :lol:
> 
> Which is why after the blackout you must adjust lighting and feeding so the organics can be dealt with by the plants.
> 
> still just my .02


....and water changes.;-)

Jeff.


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

JDM said:


> ....and water changes.;-)
> 
> Jeff.


Maybe a couple of more decades in the future I'll try that. 



:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


.02


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## xfatdannx (Feb 11, 2013)

thanks again guys


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