# my fish keep dying HELP



## Spidykat (Dec 8, 2012)

so i am having trouble understanding why my fish are dying slowly they are dying and nothing seems to be the matter i had just bought this tank from a friend (was already cycled) and set it up added atm's "colony" just to make sure it was cycled added Api stress coat and Api stress zyme.. over the past week slowly added fish in i have a bubble wall and a coloseum that bubbles. i made sure the levels in the new tank were the same as the old one!
the temp is at 86 ...(i thought i had an outbreak of ick last week so i slowly raised it and added API aquarium salt.. but it wasnt ick so im slowly trying to lower the tempurature)
according to api freshwater test kit my levels are
PH: 7.2-7.6
Ammonia: .5-1.5
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrates: 5.0 ppm
here is a list of fishies that have died
2 tiger barbs
1 white cloud
2 neon tetras

here is a list of fishies in my tank as of now

3 albino tiger barbs 
2 angel fish
1 pleco
6-8 zebra danios(they move to quickly to keep track)
7-8 white cloud
1 black tetra

these fish are in a 50 gallon tank and its a long one so lots of swim room...








plEASE help me find an answer.....


----------



## marshallsea (Apr 30, 2012)

Spidykat said:


> so i am having trouble understanding why my fish are dying slowly they are dying and nothing seems to be the matter i had just bought this tank from a friend (was already cycled) and set it up added atm's "colony" just to make sure it was cycled added Api stress coat and Api stress zyme.. over the past week slowly added fish in i have a bubble wall and a coloseum that bubbles. i made sure the levels in the new tank were the same as the old one!
> the temp is at 86 ...(i thought i had an outbreak of ick last week so i slowly raised it and added API aquarium salt.. but it wasnt ick so im slowly trying to lower the tempurature)
> according to api freshwater test kit my levels are
> PH: 7.2-7.6
> ...


Did you empty the tank? How did you get it to your place and set it up? You probably started a mini cycle or started it over. The ammonia is too high. You have to do daily waterchanges until your ammonia and nitrites read zero.


----------



## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

Your ammonia is quite high, they could be suffering ammonia poisoning. I'd do daily water changes of about 30% to bring it down. Also, are the Angelfish a mated pair? Are they acting aggressively? 

Angels should be kept in groups of about 5, and a 50 gallon is a bit on the small side for a group, although with it being long, I'm not sure.


----------



## TitanTDH (Sep 21, 2012)

Limited experience here, but do you have any live plants? I can't really tell from the picture. Did the fish go into quarantine before adding to tank? Did they all go in at once? This could indicate the ammonia which may have contributed to the fish dying. Have you seen any nitrite in your tests? I ask because the tank may be doing a mini cycle due to new bio-load. Last question was the tank cleaned prior to fish going in and did you change the filter media?
I'm sorry for the questions but it may help get to the bottom of the problem. I would do a few water changes to keep ammonia down and hope others can be more help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Spidykat (Dec 8, 2012)

i slowley added around 2-3 fish a day till they were all in... i as of now have 4 angels.. and they are fine together no signs of aggression in any fish.. with the tank i washed it out and it was cycled prior to me getting it and then when i got it i added my water.i added ATM colony... which auto cycles the tank.. worked with all of my other tanks.. when i got it and waited 24 hours and checked lvls and they were fine.. so started adding fish..and then after i added all of the fish yesterday. i checked and thats what the levels were at... as of today i checked the levels again and they are at
PH: 7.6
Ammonia: .5 to 1
nitrite: 0 ppm
nitrate:0-5.0 ppm

i was told by a pet store not to do a water change because it causes stress on fish if it is a 'mini cycle' it will settle on its own if i mess with it it could cause all the levels to reset...

i had used the filter in my old tank and switched it to my new tank....


----------



## Spidykat (Dec 8, 2012)

i also do not have live plants in there only the fake ones!


----------



## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

They told you NOT to do partial water changes?!? That's not right hun! You need to take out some of the water and replace with fresh at least once a week! As long as the replacement water has been treated and is about the same pH and temp, you're fine. If you worry about disturbing the fish, use a bowl to scoop the water in and out. Removing water and replacing it shouldn't cause it to recycle. The benificial bacteria grows on al the surfaces in your tank. It's why we can jumpstart the cycling process with old gravel or filter media, but not old water ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marshallsea (Apr 30, 2012)

Spidykat said:


> i slowley added around 2-3 fish a day till they were all in... i as of now have 4 angels.. and they are fine together no signs of aggression in any fish.. with the tank i washed it out and it was cycled prior to me getting it and then when i got it i added my water.i added ATM colony... which auto cycles the tank.. worked with all of my other tanks.. when i got it and waited 24 hours and checked lvls and they were fine.. so started adding fish..and then after i added all of the fish yesterday. i checked and thats what the levels were at... as of today i checked the levels again and they are at
> PH: 7.6
> Ammonia: .5 to 1
> nitrite: 0 ppm
> ...


Auto cycling isn't working or you would have 0 ammonia. Stop adding fish and do daily water changes until you have 0 ammonia and nitrates. You killed all bacteria except in the filter and that not enough for your amount of fish, though it helps. Go get some live plants, preferably Anacharis and toss them in or you can plant them. At this point the more plants you put in the better.


----------



## lakemalawifish (Nov 24, 2012)

Only thing I can add is that when you took the filter media from your friend, if it was not kept wet in tank water, the bacteria was not kept alive. I recommend what everyone has said so far and take it one step further by adding a Bio in a Bottle (we use API Quick Start according to the label instructions) and if you are not using Prime dechlor check into that. Those two products have always worked for us and will help keep your fish safe when starting fresh tanks and we have never lost a fish this way. Even with these products your tank is still going to have to cycle so continue checking your water parameters and doing water changes. Depending on the bio-load sometimes a tank can cycle in a month, sometimes it takes 2 months. I am sure there's something I am leaving out so somebody please fill in the blanks. Gotta run... best wishes!


----------



## Spidykat (Dec 8, 2012)

i used colony same thing as quick start but better im going to add a bacteria supplement right now.. and then do a 1/4 water change later.. i cant affor plants so im not buying them. but i have almost every atm and api product.. so that bacteria supplement should help..


----------



## Spidykat (Dec 8, 2012)

and to add i used my own filter media from the tank the fish were in... (all my fish are now in this new tank as i already said..)


----------



## Spidykat (Dec 8, 2012)

and what i meant by my water i meant the tap water...


----------



## marshallsea (Apr 30, 2012)

Spidykat said:


> i used colony same thing as quick start but better im going to add a bacteria supplement right now.. and then do a 1/4 water change later.. i cant affor plants so im not buying them. but i have almost every atm and api product.. so that bacteria supplement should help..


Plants cost less than all those products and work better.


----------



## Spidykat (Dec 8, 2012)

i could put bamboo in the tank... but i dont like real plants and where i get my fish they dont sell anything but bamboo...


----------



## Spidykat (Dec 8, 2012)

i have used plants before and have had negative effects.. so im not risking my fishes life... im not trying to make excuses its the truth..


----------



## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

Please don't put bamboo in the tank. Bamboo is not an aquatic plant and will rot.


----------



## lakemalawifish (Nov 24, 2012)

If you put the bio in now and do the water change later, you will just be removing the bio you just put in. Not sure when you did you last water change, but if it has been over 24 hours ago, I would do it the other way.... water change then bio, that way you are removing more of the ammonia, etc. that you currently have in your water. When we are cycling tanks, I check the water parameters every day and watch for spikes in ammonia and nitrites and just do water changes. It was hard work and with several tanks running, I was doing water changes every day. You will get there, just takes time.

As far as plants, I love to see planted tanks and I have a green thumb outside, but the type fish we have do not do well with plants so I have not explored it. Having a successful planted tank, or even just a few plants, takes a lot more knowledge than I have because of the necessary substrate, lighting and plant fertilizers involved. There are several people on this forum with awesome planted tanks who I am sure can help you. I checked into the lucky bamboo because I had seen another tank with it planted in specimen containers that were attached to the back wall of the tank with suction cups that allowed the top of the plant to stick out of the back of the tank (above the lid) Thought this might be some way of having a nitrate fighting plant in our african tanks that they would not mess with. I did not further my research except to ask the store clerk if the bamboo was safe and they said yes, but it cannot be totally submerged in the water or it will not live. Please don't take what I say on this as true, someone else said it is not safe for your fish and I am not doubting that, just sharing what little bit I have seen and been told. You are right to do what you think is right for your fish, regardless of what anybody else including myself tells you :

ps... just a thought, but I am wondering if the ammonia is from the death of the fish. Any time we have had a fish not make it, it was in a quarantine tank so I am not knowledgeable about fish deaths in a main tank but I have heard stories where it caused ammonia spikes, especially if they were not found right away. hoping for good news from you soon, hang in there!


----------



## marshallsea (Apr 30, 2012)

Spidykat said:


> i used colony same thing as quick start but better im going to add a bacteria supplement right now.. and then do a 1/4 water change later.. i cant affor plants so im not buying them. but i have almost every atm and api product.. so that bacteria supplement should help..


hh


----------



## marshallsea (Apr 30, 2012)

Spidykat said:


> i have used plants before and have had negative effects.. so im not risking my fishes life... im not trying to make excuses its the truth..


How would plants risk your fish's life? What happened?


----------



## Spidykat (Dec 8, 2012)

i will be doing a water change tomorrow.. and adding bacteria supplement,api stresscoat, api stress zyme, and a pinch of aquarium salt.. after that. and i will not be buying plants there not worth it as i have said before i do not like plants nor do my fish they kill them.....

if i should add something else or something less please let me know..


----------



## Spidykat (Dec 8, 2012)

lakemalawifish said:


> If you put the bio in now and do the water change later, you will just be removing the bio you just put in. Not sure when you did you last water change, but if it has been over 24 hours ago, I would do it the other way.... water change then bio, that way you are removing more of the ammonia, etc. that you currently have in your water. When we are cycling tanks, I check the water parameters every day and watch for spikes in ammonia and nitrites and just do water changes. It was hard work and with several tanks running, I was doing water changes every day. You will get there, just takes time.
> 
> As far as plants, I love to see planted tanks and I have a green thumb outside, but the type fish we have do not do well with plants so I have not explored it. Having a successful planted tank, or even just a few plants, takes a lot more knowledge than I have because of the necessary substrate, lighting and plant fertilizers involved. There are several people on this forum with awesome planted tanks who I am sure can help you. I checked into the lucky bamboo because I had seen another tank with it planted in specimen containers that were attached to the back wall of the tank with suction cups that allowed the top of the plant to stick out of the back of the tank (above the lid) Thought this might be some way of having a nitrate fighting plant in our african tanks that they would not mess with. I did not further my research except to ask the store clerk if the bamboo was safe and they said yes, but it cannot be totally submerged in the water or it will not live. Please don't take what I say on this as true, someone else said it is not safe for your fish and I am not doubting that, just sharing what little bit I have seen and been told. You are right to do what you think is right for your fish, regardless of what anybody else including myself tells you :
> 
> ps... just a thought, but I am wondering if the ammonia is from the death of the fish. Any time we have had a fish not make it, it was in a quarantine tank so I am not knowledgeable about fish deaths in a main tank but I have heard stories where it caused ammonia spikes, especially if they were not found right away. hoping for good news from you soon, hang in there!



african tanks are amazing the people i live with have one and have electric blues pastel blues, electric green, yellow labs, and now 3 babys.. (petsmart gave me them free so i gave them to her(she was so happy) lol) she has 18 fish in a 47 right now and is getting more.. 
WARNING: that is not over crowding a tank with ciclhids if they have more fish they dont get territorial.. and thats what you want in an african tank.. and NEVER mix south american with africans.. its horrible.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Spidykat said:


> i will be doing a water change tomorrow.. and adding bacteria supplement,api stresscoat, api stress zyme, and a pinch of aquarium salt.. after that. and i will not be buying plants there not worth it as i have said before i do not like plants nor do my fish they kill them.....
> 
> if i should add something else or something less please let me know..


Welcome to Tropical Fish Keeping forum.:-D

Now, to your problem. The way to solve this is not to dump more and more chemicals in the tank, but to do massive water changes, as several have already mentioned.

Ammonia and nitrite are toxic at very low levels, anything above zero. This does not mean fish will die in a few minutes, though they might; but the ammonia does affect them permanently. The only way to get rid of ammonia (without live plants) is via a water change, daily if needed, to keep it near zero until the bacteria build up sufficient to handle it.

A good bacterial supplement will speed this along. I've no idea what the product you mentioned earlier is like. Ones that do work are Dr. Tim's One and Only, Seachem's Stability and Tetra's SafeStart.

Using a conditioner that detoxifies ammonia (and nitrite, as that may be next) is advisable during initial cycling. Seachem's Prime or Aquarium Solutions Ultimate are two that handle both. Once the tank is settled and established, you can go back to any water conditioner that handles the issues you may have in your water.

[By the way, have you tested the tap water for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? Worth knowing.]

Live plants would help in this, as they take up a lot of ammonia. But I'll leave that for the present. You have critical issues that need resolution now for the sake of the fish.

And on all these additives. Forget the salt, that will only add stress to these fish and not have any benefit anyway. StressCoat is also not going to help, and again will make things worse. StressZyme I would not use, at least not now at this stage; it actually increases ammonia, notwithstanding their claims. And the more chemicals you add, the more TDS (total dissolved solids) and this too further stresses the fish.

Good luck. Keep us posted so we can help you through this.

Byron.


----------



## Spidykat (Dec 8, 2012)

ok i did a 25% water change today and added the stuff... ill add the seachems prime soon.. i will do another tomorrow. if the levels arent ok.. i have to add ph down though too


----------



## marshallsea (Apr 30, 2012)

Spidykat said:


> ok i did a 25% water change today and added the stuff... ill add the seachems prime soon.. i will do another tomorrow. if the levels arent ok.. i have to add ph down though too


PH chemicals are something you shouldn't add to your tank. It's harmful to your fish and if it works it's only temporary (1-2 days) and your water will go back to what it was. The fish will do better in the water as is than they will in chemicals.


----------



## lakemalawifish (Nov 24, 2012)

I agree with the ph down comment, Angels would be ok with ph at 7.5'ish. Better to have their ph pretty constant than to have it swing back and forth with chemicals and additives. The ph of the water also changes during a water change so you may need to do more frequent, but smaller water changes once you get your tank cycled and running more effectively.


----------



## Spidykat (Dec 8, 2012)

lakemalawifish said:


> I agree with the ph down comment, Angels would be ok with ph at 7.5'ish. Better to have their ph pretty constant than to have it swing back and forth with chemicals and additives. The ph of the water also changes during a water change so you may need to do more frequent, but smaller water changes once you get your tank cycled and running more effectively.


well i didnt add the ph down i only added the prime. and the tap water has a really high ph. so i dont know what to do about that....


----------



## lakemalawifish (Nov 24, 2012)

Sorry but I'm starting to get lost in this thread. I can tell you are stressing, I will try my best here but I am no pro so somebody else chime in please.

I have heard but not researched that to test your tap water for anything, whether it be ph, ammonia, etc. that you need to let a sample of your tap water sit out for 24-hours in order for the chlorine to naturally dissipate. So, we need someone else's help on this.

After we find out the correct way to do that, then it would be helpful to me, and others try to help you figure out this delimma, to get an update on all of your water parameters, your stock list, tank size, filtration, tank temperature, whether or not you have plants, I'm probably leaving something out of importance, so ya'll help out.

I am not trying to pass the buck but nobody has all of the answers, that is why we are here  I know how frustrating these times are when we are doing all we can and things are just not right in our tank. Ok folks, we need you!


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Lakemalawifish is on the right track here. You need to deal with one issue at a time, and right now the most important issue is cycling.

Daily water changes of half the tank volume, using Prime, must continue until ammonia and nitrite are zero. Using a good bacterial supplement will quicken this, as we've already mentioned.

Leave the pH alone. I don't mean to be disrespectful in what I will say next, but I get the impression that you are not fully understanding water chemistry in an aquarium. Most of us, probably all of us, didn't either when we started out. But this is a very complex subject that an aquarist simply has to grasp, at least the essentials, so avoid errors that always affect fish and can kill them.

Read this article for a better background to water chemistry with respect to hardness (GH and KH) and pH (these are inter-connected):
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-articles/water-hardness-ph-freshwater-aquarium-73276/

Then, get the GH, KH/Alkalinity and pH numbers of your tap water. The GH and KH/Alkalinity you can ascertain from the water folks, they likely have a website. The pH they may also know, but testing this at home is easy and you should have a pH test kit (liquid) as this is a useful test. And for this you need to either let the tap water sit out overnight, or you can shake it very briskly in a jar for several minutes. Both processes will out-gas the CO2, which if present can affect the test. Once you know these numbers, and have read the article, we can discuss further.

But first the cycling has to be resolved. And back to this, some more information. Prime detoxifies ammonia and nitrite for 24-48 hours, at which time if still present they will revert back to their toxic form. Second, test kits we use for ammonia and nitrite will show the level whether it is toxic or non-toxic. This is why we continue the daily changes until levels are zero.

Byron.


----------



## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

Agreed. Water changes in De-chlorinated water with Prime is what is needed until the tank cycles. 
We are advising you to test your tap water because if your tank is reading Ammonia .25 for example and you test your tap water and find that it contains Ammonia at .25 then you cannot expect that number to drop during a water change. And therefore need a water conditioner/de-chlor that can handle neutralizing the Ammonia/Chlorine/Chloramine. 

My PH is 8.2. I do not do anything to it. I have chosen fish that like a higher PH. Live bearers like Mollies, Swords, Rainbowfish. But African Cichlids love it too. There are a lot of options. I however would never consider a fish like Discus that like the PH in the 6's. 
I too agree on even a few plants thrown in to float on the surface for now if you don't want to plant them. 
We would love to hear of your experiences with plants. It should not have been so negative IMO, and as I am on my first planted tank, would love to know what happened. We all will learn from your experiences too. This is very much a learning Forum. 
How are you numbers today??


----------



## lakemalawifish (Nov 24, 2012)

Hey, I am sitting here on hold with a phone call, so I took time to read this thread again. When you initially started this tank with filter media from another tank you have, what size tank was that? I am thinking if it is a smaller tank than the 50 gal you are having problems with right now, that the seeded media was not sufficient for the larger tank. Also, when using seeded media, once it comes in contact with fresh water in an uncycled tank, it somewhat dilutes the effectiveness of the bio in the seeded media. So, if this is the case, you are basically starting with an uncycled tank from the beginning. This has happened to me before and it is very frustrating. I was so hoping that the filter media I took from another tank (that I had sold) would jump start the new larger tank I was setting up... but it did not... and I had to go through the cycle process anyway. BUT... here is the strange thing to me, that hopefully someone else can figure out... since you are showing Nitrates... that usually means that the tank has cycled. Starting with ammonia, that is converted to nitrites and once the biological filter steps in is converted to nitrates. I am not sure how long you've had this tank up and running, but my gut feeling is telling me that it was in the process of cycling and the ich medicine may have been what killed the fish, and the death of the fish in the tank created the ammonia spike. Whew... this has been a brainstorm indeed and it bugs me when something like this totally stumps my itty bitty brain LOL.... ok, ready for whatever is next.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

This is certainly one possibility. Another is that nitrates occur in his tap water, hence our suggestions for the tap to be tested for all 3. We need to cover all the possibles in order to eliminate the irrelevant and find the culprit.


----------



## Spidykat (Dec 8, 2012)

ok so i know how to check the tap water and everything was at the levels it needs to be 0 amonia 0 nitrites and 0 nitrates. i have had a reading of 7.8 ph.. on tap water.. i dont use plants because whenever i do my fish die. ever since i started so i refuse to use them... i didnt use old filter media i used the gross filter water and soaked the new media in the old filter water.. (i had a 60 gallon canaster filter i got the water from..) and the complete list of fish i have is
3 albino tiger barbs
2 tiger barbs 
4 angel fish
1 pleco
6-8 zebra danios(they move to quickly to keep track)
7-8 white cloud
1 black tetra
1 cherry barb

in a 50 gallon long tank
i did that water change and added the prime and now my levels are good except for ammonia so i used atm outbreak. and then added an ammonia detoxifier and i have always been told if the nitrates are 40ppm and above they are safe (depending on the fish, and my fish like 40ppm and above.)

so please let me know im just worried about the ammonia....


----------



## Spidykat (Dec 8, 2012)

and i never added ick medicine i added aquarium salt it cures ick.


----------



## marshallsea (Apr 30, 2012)

Spidykat said:


> and i never added ick medicine i added aquarium salt it cures ick.


Aquarium salt is very dangerous for your pleco.


----------



## Spidykat (Dec 8, 2012)

ive never been told that before and i was advised by proffesional people to use that for all of the fish because its a herbal remedy.. the pleco has survived worse... lol


----------



## marshallsea (Apr 30, 2012)

Spidykat said:


> ok so i know how to check the tap water and everything was at the levels it needs to be 0 amonia 0 nitrites and 0 nitrates. i have had a reading of 7.8 ph.. on tap water.. i dont use plants because whenever i do my fish die. ever since i started so i refuse to use them... i didnt use old filter media i used the gross filter water and soaked the new media in the old filter water.. (i had a 60 gallon canaster filter i got the water from..) and the complete list of fish i have is
> 3 albino tiger barbs
> 2 tiger barbs
> 4 angel fish
> ...


Prime detoxifies ammonia for 24-36 hours but gives a false ammonia reading. Use prime daily with water changes until your tank is cycled and it will help your fish with the ammonia. Nitrates at 40ppm is at toxic levels and very bad for fish. 15ppm and lower is considered safe. Stop adding things like Outbreak to your tank. These seldom work and are bad for your fish. There are much better ways to solve your problems, like those mentioned on this thread.


----------



## lakemalawifish (Nov 24, 2012)

Found this article on high ammonia levels, here's the link
Handling High Ammonia Levels

This is pretty informative, I think. I have heard several times that salt can kill the beneficial bacteria in the filter, but have yet to confirm this. If the salt does do this, it's possible when you treated for ich, that is what happened. Especially if you treated for ich very soon after the tank was set up and it had not had the chance to get cycled.

Your nitrates (the ending result of the cycle) are dangerous to your fish over 40, so 20-40 is ok, but to strive for 0-20 is even better. Anything over 40 is a definite cause for concern and must be resolved soon before they get higher.

Hope this helps some. My goodness you are up late  It's midnight here in Nashville, TN not sure where you are but hope you can get some sleep and not worry too much. You are doing everything you can, we all have to go through these steps, but you've had fish tanks before, you can do this!!


----------



## marshallsea (Apr 30, 2012)

Spidykat said:


> ive never been told that before and i was advised by proffesional people to use that for all of the fish because its a herbal remedy.. the pleco has survived worse... lol


Not true at all, salt and catfish of any kind don't go together. Salt is not an herb.


----------



## Canadian Fish (Feb 12, 2012)

Spidykat said:


> i dont use plants because whenever i do my fish die. ever since i started so i refuse to use them... i didnt use old filter media i used the gross filter water and soaked the new media in the old filter water..


Something killed your fish before, but I doubt it was the plants. That was a coincidence I'm sure. There's a reason everyone here is suggesting plants. It's not because we're plant salesmen.

One reason you may be cycling again is because you only used old water, and not old media. The good bacteria is in the media.

As for this



> and my fish like 40ppm and above


No fish "like" or prefer 40 ppm and above. Less is always better, for all freshwater fish, I assume. I try to keep mine around 5. 40 and higher would be harmful to your fish, in my opinion.


----------



## marshallsea (Apr 30, 2012)

Spidykat said:


> ive never been told that before and i was advised by proffesional people to use that for all of the fish because its a herbal remedy.. the pleco has survived worse... lol


Ok. I'll be the one to say it. Who ever you get your professional advice from is as responsible for your fish's death as the ammonia in your tank. Please stop listening to them. I'm sorry for being so blunt.


----------



## Spidykat (Dec 8, 2012)

you mean i should stop listning to the atm people? because i have personally seeked advice from them and got responses... so please dont tell me to not listen to them (there the "tanked" people if you didnt know) and please quit telling me plants there out of the question i will do a water change tomorrow and add prime and the nutrilizer.. im not doing a water change every day its horrible to do to a fish.. (very stress full) and i will read the article. ok  thank you guys for the help!!!


----------



## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

After spending an hour a time, twice a day doing water changes myself due to my own fault I can see why you don't want to  however you say it's because it's stressful for the fish.... but surely it's not as stressful for them as swimming in toxic water..... though I suppose there's no stress in death........ :O

Plus you can always limit the stress.... being very careful as you do it.... lights off etc. Anything to help really. 


I also had problems with my levels etc, and taking advice from people on here I added more plants, and honestly the more I added the faster my situation improved. ( and the prettier my tank got!) I'm no plant salesman either, but there can't be this insurmountable support for them here, with scientific backing for no reason. Forget your prejudice against them and start thinking about the good of your fish.....


----------



## marshallsea (Apr 30, 2012)

Spidykat said:


> you mean i should stop listning to the atm people? because i have personally seeked advice from them and got responses... so please dont tell me to not listen to them (there the "tanked" people if you didnt know) and please quit telling me plants there out of the question i will do a water change tomorrow and add prime and the nutrilizer.. im not doing a water change every day its horrible to do to a fish.. (very stress full) and i will read the article. ok  thank you guys for the help!!!


The advice you're getting from ATM isn't good or you wouldn't be posting ' My fish are dying Help'. If you keep doing what you were doing your fish are going to keep dying. We are all trying to help you and your fish but you seem unwilling to change what you're doing, which by the way is killing fish.


----------



## lakemalawifish (Nov 24, 2012)

Canadian Fish said:


> Something killed your fish before, but I doubt it was the plants. That was a coincidence I'm sure. There's a reason everyone here is suggesting plants. It's not because we're plant salesmen.
> 
> One reason you may be cycling again is because you only used old water, and not old media. The good bacteria is in the media.
> 
> ...


Oh wow, here we go... folks try to make your point without being so harsh. This is the main reason why most people leave forums, they get their feelings hurt by someone who is really trying to help them, but they word things the wrong way. And remember, pushing someone into a corner against their better judgement and willpower will only get you pushed into the corner.

We can ask on question, or research a topic on the internet and get several different answers. Just like salt with pleco's... I have always heard that salt is not good for scaleless fish (plecos, catfish, loaches) and I took that advice (with no documented proof) because that was what I wanted to believe and I thought those people know more than I do. I just researched salt and pleco's and found that people have used small amounts of salt in their tank with pleco's with no ill effects, but... what is considered a small amount? Same with ich meds, read the label, some say "ok with scaleless fish" well that's the one I buy because without any other information to the contrary, I will just have to trust this company that it will not kill my pleco's.

The biological filter is the heartbeat of the aquarium, you all know that. There are certain things, that without a doubt, if they are not attended to... will make this heart weak, and over time... sometimes a very short time period... will kill it. This is why people who know get so passionate about this subject because it is a terrible and sad thing when something goes wrong, and an innocent living creature dies.

I do not know who, but someone much smarter than I am, studied ammonia, nitrites and nitrates, etc. and have set limits. These limits have been the same for years, they must be right. Some things do not change over time, they just can't, it is what it is, take it or leave it, like it or not. We are not meaning to badger you over this, we are just trying to stress the importance of these things and help you. As far as water changes and why they are necessary, even if the fish don't like it, well the water change is the most effective way to remove things from their "home" that can and will make them sick. It's not a coin toss... it is true. Not because I said it's true or anybody else, it is scientific fact, that bad stuff has got to come out and if it's ammonia or nitrites, it needs to come out now, not tomorrow or the next day. High readings of nitrates, same thing, they are not "as" harmful to your fish but not good either and will have some effect very soon, and a fish who's health is somewhat compromised (due to stress, etc.) will be the first ones to be affected. Please consider these things when making your decision.

If someone says they do not like plants, let it be, they have already made their decision. If someone trusts another forum or group, there's not much you can do to change that. I did see where someone said "I am surprised ATM has advised you to the contrary" that's cool... let them know, they need to know, but try to say it as nicely as you can as to not offend and then let it be. You did your part to warn them. I really try to approach things in a gentle manner and still mess things up so I am not pointing fingers, just be kind


----------



## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

Spidykat said:


> ok so i know how to check the tap water and everything was at the levels it needs to be 0 amonia 0 nitrites and 0 nitrates. i have had a reading of 7.8 ph.. on tap water. i didnt use old filter media i used the gross filter water and soaked the new media in the old filter water.. (i had a 60 gallon canaster filter i got the water from..).
> i did that water change and added the prime and now my levels are good except for ammonia so i used atm outbreak. and then added an ammonia detoxifier and i have always been told if the nitrates are 40ppm and above they are safe (depending on the fish, and my fish like 40ppm and above.)
> 
> so please let me know im just worried about the ammonia....


Spidykat: We are all here to help. I am familiar with the ATM group and watch the show. But I'm not familiar with their brands. I AM familiar with Prime which you have and can use from single dose up to 5X in emergencies to help your fish. 
You are in FULL Cycle mode with a huge amount of fish present. 
The bacteria grows on surfaces. It IS NOT in the water, or the gunk. It grows, 2 diff kinds, in 2 different stages, on your gravel, plastic plants, filter media, glass surfaces, rocks etc. on SURFACES. If you started a brand new tank using dirty filter water all you did was use dirty filter water basically. You can only battle the 3 cycling stages by doing daily water changes with Prime. Since you already have a huge number of fish then your only option to prevent death is daily water changes. This will dilute any high numbers as you have stated your tap water is all zeros. 
As for the advice you have been given... I expect you were getting answers based on the info you provided them. If you said, "Yes I used media from another tank." rather than "I actually used dirty water from another filter" I think you may have got a different course of action.


----------



## Canadian Fish (Feb 12, 2012)

I'm sorry if I came off as harsh, but no fish "like" nitrates above 40 ppm, regardless of what someone has been told. And using filter water is not the same as using filter media. Which were the two main parts of my post. I also mentioned the plants. You are correct, if someone doesn't want plants, no need to beat a dead horse. But if someone is still looking for advice, and their situation hasn't improved, we can only suggest what we know.


----------



## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

Spidykat: Personally, I have watched tanked and said to myself "omg wow, that's wrong!" abouta couple things. I still like the show though.

If there's any other questions, feel free to ask. I'm afraid this thread has gotten a bit off topic. Water changes and time is all that will fix your problem, in my opinion. bamboo wouldactually help in your tank as long as all the leaves are out of the water (in the filter basket maybe).


----------



## lakemalawifish (Nov 24, 2012)

Something that may be of interest. I ran across this video last night and even though we put sponge filters in established tanks and let them run for several weeks so whenever we need to set up a quick tank in our fish room for fry, sick fish, etc., this has really caught my attention. In a round about way, I think this is what the author of this thread did to start her tank. She soaked a filter in the water in her canister from a tank in her home that was running successfully with no issues. I would say that is not much different from squeezing a used sponge filter into a cup of tank water and pouring that tank water into the newly set up tank. Only thing that sparks a light bulb in my head is if the canister is very dirty and is highly saturated with nitrates. But, many times I have cleaned out our canisters and poured this water down the toilet thinking... "wonder if this is where bio in a bottle comes from"

This is interesting enough for me to take note, what do you guys think?


----------



## Canadian Fish (Feb 12, 2012)

I have no idea if this works, I have never tried it. It very well could.I am certainly no expert I would have thought the sponge would have to soak longer. I don't squeeze water out of an established sponge though, as you mentioned. I use the sponge, or a chunk of it if the new filter is smaller, and put it right in the new filter. My understanding is the bacteria is on the surface of the sponge, as opposed to the water in it. 

When I "instantly" cycled a tank recently, I cut a chuck of established sponge to fit the filter. I also put the rest of the filter in the water. I also added a nylon full of substrate from an established tank, and water from an established tank (though I am told this does not help). I also added a bottle of colony, and plants. 

This tank never had nitrites or ammonia.

Here is a video of the setup. There are twice as many plants in there now, this is when it was first set up. This is as much for the pea puffers to keep down aggression as it is for water quality.






Everyone is correct about water changes. Good water quality will help the fish more than any additives, and in the long term, the benefits far outweigh any short term stress the fish may endure.


----------



## lakemalawifish (Nov 24, 2012)

Spidykat, your issue right now is ammonia so your tank is just going to have to take time to cycle and the water changes and Prime like you are doing are emergency treatments while this is going on. There are some other more complicated factors with ammonia that I am not real up on, but here's an article regarding Chloramines. I would advise you to contact your local water company and ask if they use Chloramines to disinfect the water at your tap. Chloramines are even more toxic to fish than Chlorine, and not all water conditioners treat and remove Chloramines. We could not get a definite answer from our water company so we have to assume that they use Chloramines whenever they feel they need to. That is why we are so dead set on using Prime because we trust that the Chloramines are being dealt with.

Let's get your ammonia down, keep it down and when things settle down a bit, we can move on to the next step. Bless your heart, I can tell you are at your wits end (HUGS)


----------



## lakemalawifish (Nov 24, 2012)

Nice tank set up Canadian Fish! Your plants are looking great and I really like your ideas on how to bio up the tank. I am very surprised your plants are doing so well (not intended in a bad way) just noticing that the lighting is not extremely bright. They actually look like they are about to outgrow the tank! Thanks for sharing the vid and ideas


----------



## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

As mentioned above, bacteria live on surfaces- not the water.

I have used "gunk" to cycle a tank. (I vacuumed my tanks lightly, and rinsed all my old filters in a bucket of tank water. After it settled, I poured off the clear water and dumped the gunk into the new tank along with a tbsp of raw sugar. Once the gunk settled, I added fish.)

However, the clear water contains no significant bacteria. When we (members of this site) come across people who need help, all we can do is mention things that we would do (and have done) in similiar situations. When people say "Well X told me to do Y, and I did it." its hard for us to not hear "I trust person X's advice more than yours. You must be wrong.", even though its not what was meant.

I feel like we've offered all the advice we can, hence I don't have much to offer (other than waterchanges, add plants, dose bacteria/sugar etc)

Adding bacteria won't do much with such a large starting fish load. Water changesis all I can advise, but I would do much larger ones (50% daily, or enough to bring ammonia to 0. Adding a double dose of prime and bacterial supplement after each waterchange. Adding a tablespoon of sugar directly to the filter can help, but "bacterial supplements" already have sugar. No reason to dose both.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

lakemalawifish said:


> Something that may be of interest. I ran across this video last night and even though we put sponge filters in established tanks and let them run for several weeks so whenever we need to set up a quick tank in our fish room for fry, sick fish, etc., this has really caught my attention. In a round about way, I think this is what the author of this thread did to start her tank. She soaked a filter in the water in her canister from a tank in her home that was running successfully with no issues. I would say that is not much different from squeezing a used sponge filter into a cup of tank water and pouring that tank water into the newly set up tank. Only thing that sparks a light bulb in my head is if the canister is very dirty and is highly saturated with nitrates. But, many times I have cleaned out our canisters and poured this water down the toilet thinking... "wonder if this is where bio in a bottle comes from"
> 
> This is interesting enough for me to take note, what do you guys think?
> 
> Cycle a fish tank in 3 minutes - YouTube


I watched the video--this is not good advice. All bacteria live on surfaces, not in the water. They adhere to surfaces with a sticky film we call the biofilm. It is not that easy to dislodge them. For example, holding a surface under running water will not dislodge the bacteria.

I may try to dig around later and find some specific data on this method of squeezing water from a sponge filter. I have certainly never come across any that suggests this works. And I would doubt it very much. The bacteria on the sponge filter are going to remain adhered to the sponge filter unless some much more drastic measure is taken to remove them. For example, on a surface such as a flat piece of slate, you would have to use a scraper to dislodge the biofilm with the bacteria.

Even fish cannot get this off. Mbuna love to graze rocks for algae and aufwuchs but they do not remove all of the biofilm.

All this fellow did was pour polluted water into a clean tank.

Byron.


----------



## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

I don't know if there has been any research, but I seem to recall 'detritus' being held together with biofilm, and this being the reason it seems to clump together and often feels 'slimy'. Diatoms may make up a part of the sludge along with other algaes, but all algaes are pretty much conglomerates of algae and bacteria anyway. (We id algae by the growth form, but the growth is usually decided by the 'primary' algae..)


----------



## lakemalawifish (Nov 24, 2012)

lakemalawifish said:


> Spidykat, your issue right now is ammonia so your tank is just going to have to take time to cycle and the water changes and Prime like you are doing are emergency treatments while this is going on. There are some other more complicated factors with ammonia that I am not real up on, but here's an article regarding Chloramines. I would advise you to contact your local water company and ask if they use Chloramines to disinfect the water at your tap. Chloramines are even more toxic to fish than Chlorine, and not all water conditioners treat and remove Chloramines. We could not get a definite answer from our water company so we have to assume that they use Chloramines whenever they feel they need to. That is why we are so dead set on using Prime because we trust that the Chloramines are being dealt with.
> 
> Let's get your ammonia down, keep it down and when things settle down a bit, we can move on to the next step. Bless your heart, I can tell you are at your wits end (HUGS)


Spidykat, just look up Chloramines and give your water company a call. Please continue to give us updates. We really are nice people here, who have good intentions to help others. Sometimes things just get a little messy because we are humans


----------



## Spidykat (Dec 8, 2012)

i have done the filter soaking before and its worked with every tank i have owned. and also my ammonia went down to .25 so im happy with what i have done.. i did a 25% water change then added bio supp and ammonia nutrifier then, the next day just added the nutrifier , bio supp, and a piece of bamboo in my filter. and then today i did a 50% water change added bio supp and the nutrifier again. and it is down to .25 so its going down. and just to let you know i do feel pressured from almost everyone but lakemawifish! you guys are being very rude if i say something dont try to change my opinion..


----------



## Canadian Fish (Feb 12, 2012)

Spidykat said:


> if i say something dont try to change my opinion..


OK then.


----------



## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

Alrighty, I won't mention that .25 ammonia can be lethal, and your fish are in danger still. Nonetheless, glad your problems were solved.

*Thread closed.*


----------

