# My new (and first) tank-hints tips etc



## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

First off...... hi people 

Ok, So my little story..... I had decided that saving all my money had become boring, decided to treat myself and rather than buy a new 50" plasma, thought I'd get something I'd always wanted.... I'm 25  .. and get my first tank. Nearly went reef after chatting to a friend who actually has tropical, but Mrs said NO! And I'm kinda glad too.

So....I went out and bought myself an aqua one eurostyle 80, 180 ltr tank. I likes it 

I will upload pics later as currently working..well... if someone would kindly link me the how to, or I'll find it once home. 

Tank has now cycled using bottle cheat BUT one of my pieces of wood has not yet sank in my water butt and is stopping me from putting fish in as its so big it would cause the poor things too much stress/being squashed.

So, gives me a little time though to chat about where I want to go with the tank etc with you lot hopefully 

Originally I wanted balas but have now decided that the tank would not suit them after too long....... it's (cm) 80 x 76 x 40. Works out at 215 ltr but after substrate and lil missing at top 180 sounds about right. 

Ok, it will be a planted tank, have already had fun putting in one piece of wood that's kind of like a mini cave and attaching 2 anubias to the top of it, have other plants - can't remember the name now - currently in tank waiting for my other wood which is like a root system which I will plant them between etc creating nice shelter etc. Wish I could upload pics now.......

So, these are the fish I was interested in and was hoping for some advise on creating a good community;

Beosmani rainbow
Galaxy rasbora
Clown loach
Sunset platy
Couple of diff plecos- candy strip, well any of the stripey ones. Haha
Balas :-(
Red tail black shark
Black neon tetra.

And am always willing to take any advice/s suggestions etc. 

Thanks in advance for any replies


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## fish monger (Dec 29, 2011)

Those tank dimensions will allow you to do some really cool aquascaping. Unfortunately, you have a few fish on your list that might not work out. That being said, the total area of your tank might make up for the lack of length. The clown loach is not a good candidate no matter what because of their eventual size, same thing for the balas. If you get the smaller plecos, they will work out. Many folks say that a red tailed shark needs a minimum of a 48 inch tank; however, most 48 inch long tanks are only 12-15 inches wide. Your tank has much more surface area than those, so maybe the red tailed shark would work. Let's wait to here from some of the experts. Have fun and best of luck.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Welcome to Tropical Fish Keeping forum.:-D

I'm going to point you to our fish profiles, second tab from the left in the blue bar across the top of the page. You will note that some of the fish names shaded in your initial post; that is because you typed the name exactly as it appears in our profile and it will become a link to that profile. All of the fish mentioned are in the profiles. To make it quick for you, here are the names as links:
Clown Loach
Black Neon Tetra
Boeseman Rainbowfish
Celestial Pearl Danio [Galaxy Rasbora is another common name]
Platy
Bala Shark
Red Tailed Shark
Common Pleco

You will find info on minimum tank sizes, numbers in the group for shoaling fish, compatibility issues, etc in the profiles. I won't repeat what you will find there, but you have a few serious issues with the fish that you will find out about. And you can always ask question here.

Byron.


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## marshallsea (Apr 30, 2012)

Nilet699 said:


> First off...... hi people
> 
> Ok, So my little story..... I had decided that saving all my money had become boring, decided to treat myself and rather than buy a new 50" plasma, thought I'd get something I'd always wanted.... I'm 25  .. and get my first tank. Nearly went reef after chatting to a friend who actually has tropical, but Mrs said NO! And I'm kinda glad too.
> 
> ...


How long has your tank been running? Even with the additive it can take months to fully cycle. Add your plants before your fish.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Sorry fish monger, that width is right for mine too, the 76cm relates to the height. I couldn't fit anything longer or deeper into the alcove I've put it in so went as tall as I could find.

Tanks been up for 11 days now and all readings etc so spiked as should. Plants have been in for a week now and are fine. Literally just waiting on the wood so can plant the tank how I want it. 

I have read all them profiles thanks Byron and I can indeed see a multitude of problems in parameters etc. Sad face. Has made me think though as I plan to add a second larger tank in 6-12 months, how big would I need for a bala and clown loach tank? And how long till they grew out of my current? 

Main thing is I'm not a fan of tiny fish, neons tetras etc, just not my thing, I'd much prefer to have far fewer 3/4/5/6/7 inch fish in my tank than have a 100 0.5 inch fish there. So, any suggestions where to start building from with a nice centre piece larger fish that I can build a community around?


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## Canadian Fish (Feb 12, 2012)

Nilet699 said:


> Sorry fish monger, that width is right for mine too, the 76cm relates to the height. I couldn't fit anything longer or deeper into the alcove I've put it in so went as tall as I could find.
> 
> Tanks been up for 11 days now and all readings etc so spiked as should. Plants have been in for a week now and are fine. Literally just waiting on the wood so can plant the tank how I want it.
> 
> ...


The Bala profile suggests a tank of 6 to 8 feet in length. Balas and Clown loaches like to be kept in groups, so I suggest 125 as a minimum size tank for keeping both. 150 or 180 would be even better. 

I keep Balas in a 220, and I plan on adding Clown loaches as well, I love your choice of fish. My 220 is, sadly, only 6 feet long, so it's no better than a 150 or 180 for the balas, which need the swimming length as they mature.

Even as babies, my balas used the entire length of a 4 ft 55 gallon tank. If your tank is 80 cm long, which is just over 2 and a half feet, I would not keep balas or clown loaches of any age. That is a really short tank. Apologies if I misunderstood the dimensions. I can't imagine a 50 gallon tank is only 2 and a half feet long. That's the same length as a 20 gallon long tank, so I may have missed something.

As for the second part of your question, some species of Rainbowfish grow to about 4", and they grow high as well as long as they mature. They are a beautiful fish that come in many colors. Mine are super fast and active. In those tank dimensions, however, they will be essentially swimming in circles (which may be fine for them, I have no idea, Byron or someone would know better). Something less active may be better for a tank of your dimensions.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

> Model 80 Aquarium size is 80cm x 42cm x 64cm high, the volume is 180 litres.
> Cabinet measures 80cm x 42 x 76cm high


So I was slightly mistaking the dimensions. But had the overall capacity right...

80X42x64 = 215 040 x 0.001 = 215.04 litre capacity. 
Which equates to;
215 litres = 47.2933688 Imperial gallons
215 litres = 56.7969913 US gallons

80Cm is 2.62 ft in length.

Hope this helps? 



As for the balas clowns etc why I'm wondering about if they could Start for the first 6 months in my current tank is I was going to buy a 600 litre/200us gallon tank originally but Mrs said to start smaller... which I'm now regretting so would no doubt buy anyway 6 months from now, why I'm wondering about the approx growth rate early on. 

Which choices did you mean Canadian?


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## Canadian Fish (Feb 12, 2012)

I neglected to say....










Welcome to the forum!



Nilet699 said:


> So I was slightly mistaking the dimensions. But had the overall capacity right...
> 
> 80X42x64 = 215 040 x 0.001 = 215.04 litre capacity.
> Which equates to;
> ...


I meant the Balas and the Clowns. I am fans of both. 

I personally don't think Balas should be in a two and a half foot tank for ANY amount of time, 6 OR 12 months. It's too short for them. Even when they're small they need swimming room. 

If you're getting a big tank in 6 months anyway, why not wait and get the Balas in six months, when you get the big tank, and stock this tank with something that can thrive in it for the long haul?

If you had a standard 55 gallon long tank, which is 48", I would say you could probably house some Balas for 6 months, as long as they were purchased very small, but I wouldn't put them in a 31" tank.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Nilet699 said:


> As for the balas clowns etc why I'm wondering about if they could Start for the first 6 months in my current tank is I was going to buy a 600 litre/200us gallon tank originally but Mrs said to start smaller... which I'm now regretting so would no doubt buy anyway 6 months from now, why I'm wondering about the approx growth rate early on.


Many years ago I picked up on what I consider a very sensible maxim: never buy a fish if you do not now/today have the required sized tank that it will need at maturity. Intentions to buy larger tanks in the future do not always materialize. And then you are left with fish in unsuitable surroundings, which is cruel to the fish and something all of us want to avoid.

Fish grow throughout their lives, unlike us; they need sufficient space, both from a physical perspective to accommodate their behaviours, and from the water quality aspect to ensure proper internal development of their physiology. When either is denied them, their growth is affected in several ways. Abnormal internal organ development, sometimes leading to what we term stunting, occurs; this weakens the fish's immune system among other things. The fish's temperament can be affected; either aggressive or regressive behaviours are the fish's only way to lash out at the frustration it feels being denied what nature intended it to have.

There are plenty of lovely loaches and barbs that suit smaller tanks. When the day comes--if it does--that a 6-foot or larger tank is set up, that will be the time for clown loaches and Balas.

Byron.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Ok you terrible people ;-) you've convinced me of what I already know I suppose. Darn you all. Haha 

Considering my tank dimensions etc and a max size of 3inches how about boesami rainbows as a centre piece? 

I also just threw away 2 large pieces of furniture...... stage 1 of acquiring a 6ft tank


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## Canadian Fish (Feb 12, 2012)

Nilet699 said:


> Ok you terrible people ;-) you've convinced me of what I already know I suppose. Darn you all. Haha
> 
> Considering my tank dimensions etc and a max size of 3inches how about boesami rainbows as a centre piece?
> 
> I also just threw away 2 large pieces of furniture...... stage 1 of acquiring a 6ft tank


Honestly the Rainbows probably need more than 31" of swimming room before needing to turn around. They're really active. 

But I could be wrong. I don't know if all that extra width makes up for the short length of the tank for a fish that size.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Your killing me C.F.! 

I wasn't sure about this as read in multiple locations that you need approx 6x there length, so I thought by having 10x I would be ok? 

Also, it's 32 inches


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## Canadian Fish (Feb 12, 2012)

Nilet699 said:


> Your killing me C.F.!
> 
> I wasn't sure about this as read in multiple locations that you need approx 6x there length, so I thought by having 10x I would be ok?
> 
> Also, it's 32 inches


We'll split the difference, since 80 cm is 31.4961 inches. I don't think the .4961 of an inch I shorted you will tip the balance one way or another. 

I am unfamiliar with the above guidelines, but if this is the case you will have almost 10 x if you get all females. Males can get up to and above 4", but that still gives you more than 6x. 

I just read a profile on another site that suggests "31.5 inches | 80 centimeters" as a minimum tank size for a group of Boesmani. So they could be fine.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Canadian Fish said:


> I just read a profile on another site that suggests "31.5 inches | 80 centimeters" as a minimum tank size for a group of Boesmani. So they could be fine.


Yeah this is the problem, so many sites, silly many answers. I've seen smaller suggested, and others saying no less than 150cm +

What I have done though is i literally just called a friend who keeps reef and tropicals to ask his opinion too and he said he had a spare 4ft in his garage that's making way for his next project. If I had known this before purchasing mine I could have saved myself quite a few bob!!! So now I have options  and can have the boes 


Which means I can now plan a tank around them! 

And heres to hoping he gets bored of his 6ft new project soon, and wants a bigger one again! I could steadily upgrade on the cheap this way! 

(And 31.496 gets rounded to 31.5....which gets rounded to 32! I don't make these rules.... honest! Don't hate the player....hate the game  )

Edit: and as per the minimum size you said, if I put them in the smaller tank (I have to wait 8 t 10 weeks for his other tanK, ) I'll just have to take the minimum number of them, with the option to increase numbers later.


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## Canadian Fish (Feb 12, 2012)

Nilet699 said:


> (And 31.496 gets rounded to 31.5....which gets rounded to 32! I don't make these rules.... honest! Don't hate the player....hate the game  )


Nice news about a 4 ft tank. That opens up many more possibilities. 

As for your math, that is assuming for some strange reason you are rounding twice.

31.496 is .004 closer to 31 than it is to 32. If you play "the game" you realize this gets rounded to 31. Anything below 32.500 does. You only get 32 if you round it, then round it again. So I think you do make the rules.

Don't let math get in the way of your math though.


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## Canadian Fish (Feb 12, 2012)

If you're looking for bottom feeders to go with Rainbows in a 4 ft tank, I would suggest Zebra loaches.

They don't hide all day like some loaches, and they're not aggressive like other loaches. They swim right along with my Rainbows all day. They're actually really entertaining.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Canadian Fish said:


> Don't let math get in the way of your math though.


haha i enjoyed that 

As for the tank yes its very good news  He just wants it for the next approx 3 months as he is going to use it to quarantine some of the newer fish he will be adding to his larger tank in stages but he's guaranteed me it after that, and hes a good friend.

Now i get to pick tank mates for the boese  I'm thinking of starting off with possibly some cherry barbs and adding in some.

Here's a list of what i've found thats compatible:

Bala Shark, *Cherry Barb*, Chinese High Fin, Clown Loach, Croaking Gourami, *Dwarf Gouram*i, *Dwarf Neon Rainbow*, Giant Gourami, *GloFish(see end)*, *Kissing Gourami*, Kuhli Loach, Molly, *Peppermint Pleco L030*, Platy, Pleco (Common), Rainbow Shark, *Red Tailed Shark*, Rosy Barb, Silver Dollar, Sparkling Gourami, Swordtail, *Tiger Barb*(too aggressive????), Tinfoil Barb, Zebra Danio.

The bolded are what I'm most interested in from that list.


I've bolded the glofish, but just as a WTF!?? GM'd fish? naaaaaaaaaaaaaaah


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## Canadian Fish (Feb 12, 2012)

Nilet699 said:


> haha i enjoyed that
> 
> As for the tank yes its very good news  He just wants it for the next approx 3 months as he is going to use it to quarantine some of the newer fish he will be adding to his larger tank in stages but he's guaranteed me it after that, and hes a good friend.
> 
> ...


Clown loaches need a bigger tank and kuhlis hide all the time, so I will mention again my preference for Zebra loaches in a tank this size, with Rainbows. 

Tinfoil Barbs need a bigger tank. Rainbowfish will probably drive the Silver Dollars crazy with their fast and constant movement. Silver Dollars are awesome though. I keep them in another tank. They get bigger than the Rainbows, but are shy and less colorful. The Rainbows will follow you around when you walk by the tank, and their colors just get better as they age. 

I have kept gouramis with Rainbowfish before and to be honest I think they have a hard time at feeding, just because the Rainbowfish are so much more active and faster. They do better with my Silver Dollars.

Dwarf Neon Rainbows are cool. You could do some Red Irian Rainbows with the Boesmani's too. 

Common Pleco will outgrow a 48" tank. Bristlenose Pleco would be a great choice though. 

I don't know about Tiger Barbs, never had any. I know they can be nippy, but the Rainbowfish are fast and don't have particularly long fins. I'm sure someone here has tried it and can let you know. 

I'm curious about that because my wife wants some green tiger barbs. She thinks they look like they're wearing camouflage. She's from the country, where camouflage is a color.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

I agree with the lot tbh of what you just said.......ive now bolded the ones im most intersted in i think. Though from them you can rule out the kissing - size, and tiger's - nippy. (possibly) So i'm getting down to a few nice ones to choose from now 

That pleco is very nice, i liked the peppermint one because it grows to a maximum of 7inches and not overly active (from what ive read), so now i have two nice ones to consider thank you.

Hmm, i had read something about feeding with the rainbows like that, which is a shame as i like the dwarf gourami's, doesnt rule them out completely but a definite consideration and something to look up further.

zebra danios is another fish people keep saying to me, easy to keep, pretty, blah blah, but not quite sure on them.

does anyone have any experience of keeping tiger barbs with rainbows? i would be interested. I'm also going to look up if you can mix the green and orange, just because i want to know tbh. 

Camouflage isnt a colour?


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Canadian Fish (Feb 12, 2012)

I'm not a big fan of zebra danios either. It's the zebra loaches I'm always pimping.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Nilet699 said:


> Now i get to pick tank mates for the boese  I'm thinking of starting off with possibly some cherry barbs and adding in some.
> Here's a list of what i've found thats compatible:
> 
> Bala Shark, *Cherry Barb*, Chinese High Fin, Clown Loach, Croaking Gourami, *Dwarf Gouram*i, *Dwarf Neon Rainbow*, Giant Gourami, *GloFish(see end)*, *Kissing Gourami*, Kuhli Loach, Molly, *Peppermint Pleco L030*, Platy, Pleco (Common), Rainbow Shark, *Red Tailed Shark*, Rosy Barb, Silver Dollar, Sparkling Gourami, Swordtail, *Tiger Barb*(too aggressive????), Tinfoil Barb, Zebra Danio.


I'm curious, did you actually see these fish named as suitable with Boeseman Rainbows? Or did you compile it solely from some criteria?

Some of these fish should never be together. And for those that could, obviously tank size enters into the equation, and the proposed 4-foot tank is insufficient for a few of them.

Byron.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Yes these fish were named as suitable to house with the boese. Obviously not all together etc and I have taken to rooting out the ones I think might be suitable for myself, now just need to research little further into required phs etc etc and see how it actually pans out.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Nilet699 said:


> Yes these fish were named as suitable to house with the boese. Obviously not all together etc and I have taken to rooting out the ones I think might be suitable for myself, now just need to research little further into required phs etc etc and see how it actually pans out.


You know about our profiles? All this data is included for each species. When you get the list weeded out, post and we can comment if we see issues.

Wherever that initial compilation came from, I wouldn't trust them. There are some major issues with that combo. Not everyone knows all the aspects of compatibility that factor into a successful community aquarium.

Byron.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

ok, so monday 1800 i introduce my first fish into the tank. I got 6 rosy tetras. schooled nicely straight away, very happy 

Part of this is used bio cycling kick start majiga in and 7 days later wanted to help it along, impatience....

checked levels today 24 hrs after, they havent eaten yet, they read

Am: 0.50
Nitrite: 0.4
Nitrate: around 3-5 ppm

So i immediately make the decision to do a water change to lower the trites. 
Change around 80 ltrs from a 180 litre tank. so around 45%. 

take readings immediately afterwards;

nitrites down to 0.2

Know ill be up late, new BF3 dl  so decide to give it 6 hours and then est agin at 4am 

do so, full readings;

Am: 0.25
Nitrites: 0.01
Nitrates: Around 4. Not east to read with markers,at 1 and 5.....

So, this is good, over 6 hours Nitrites lowered themselvesfrom 0.2 to 0.01

In that time lights went and stayed off, minus blue LED spotlight. I have plants in there, 2 Anubias attached to moala wood. (think thats right-meh) and 4 plants unknown that will be planted between ''branches'' when wood ready!. LOOKing them up now..... they are green cabomba's. Did the plants steal the trites? OR cycle going right? -Not sure as nitrates still so low...is this bad?

Sorry all over the place post, was running test as typing, and filling in my book


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Nilet699 said:


> ok, so monday 1800 i introduce my first fish into the tank. I got 6 rosy tetras. schooled nicely straight away, very happy
> 
> Part of this is used bio cycling kick start majiga in and 7 days later wanted to help it along, impatience....
> 
> ...


Nitrates are not as important here as keeping ammonia and nitrite at zero. And the fast growing plants should achieve this. Nitrates should remain low too.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Thanks 

So are the current levels ok? I know I really want Am and nitrates at 0, but hoping they will drop further as tank still new


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## fish monger (Dec 29, 2011)

Nilet699 said:


> Thanks
> 
> So are the current levels ok? I know I really want Am and nitrates at 0, but hoping they will drop further as tank still new


Well, as you said, you need the ammonia and nitrites to be zero. Don't be afraid to add more plants...substrate planted and especially fast growing stem / floating plants. Needless to say, keep up water changes and do more often if you see ammonia rise. The addition of the plants should really help with that.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Night time pic...


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

fish...


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

OK, so after lots of 40-70% water changes and bit of graft, my nitrite levels seem to have balanced out, at zero... last 48 hours* highest* iv had is <0.01 

So, hopefully this will remain. I will wait for it to be 0 for at least 7-10 days so that i know my tank is stable, else rinse and repeat.

However, this has now enabled me to *think* about what i may possibly add next....

Right now my preference is to add 2 dwarf neon gouramis next,in around 2 weeks, followed my 3 boesemani rainbows maybe a month or so after, followed (maybe) finally by a small pleco (suggestions?!?!) Ive also thought about adding to the 6 rosy tetras at some point, or if my bioload could handle it (help here please!!!) a second school of 6ish possibly. Not sure if my tank could handle that though...

Currently running Aqua One Aquis 750 Series II Canister filter and plenty of live plants- with more to come as my filters. Have thought about upgrading this though, then using this filter to run an approx 120 ltr quarantine tank. (After which to convert to cichlid tank...but thats another matter...)

Just hoping for some suggestions regarding my original 'line-up' and any suggestions etc welcome...


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## ChuckinMA (Nov 28, 2012)

If you like longer term planning, and have a high degree of confidence in your future tank, the clown loach is a fun specimen. Mine has proven quite hardy, eats very well, and is very entertaining to watch. Probably my favorite fish right now if I was forced to rank order them. It's a race against time with the room renovations, purchasing and setting up the new bigger tank (75 g), against his growth rate.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Nilet699 said:


> Right now my preference is to add 2 dwarf neon gouramis next,in around 2 weeks, followed my 3 boesemani rainbows maybe a month or so after, followed (maybe) finally by a small pleco (suggestions?!?!) Ive also thought about adding to the 6 rosy tetras at some point, or if my bioload could handle it (help here please!!!) a second school of 6ish possibly. Not sure if my tank could handle that though...


The Boeseman Rainbowfish is a shoaling fish, and in the profile it gives six as absolute minimum, though more are better. It also mentions a 4-foot tank so I assume we are now considering the 4-foot tank, not the original in this thread; area as in the surface area of the substrate is more important than depth of water for active fish.

I wouldn't add gourami to this mix though. As also noted in the profile, rainbows are active fish and should not be combined with sedate or quiet fish, like the gourami.

Which brings me to the Rosy Tetra, which are also on the quiet side. But these would probably manage better with the rainbow, though it is not a combination I personally would choose because of the activity issue, but also the water parameters. And these are not mentioned. Boeseman rainbows do not do well in soft water, whiile the Rosys are the opposite. Aside from this, I would increase the group; six as the minimum simply means that, minimum, with more always being better. I have had this species in groups close to 15 and they have been very happy. But quiet, remaining in a group under plants (they do not like overhead light) and out of the filter flow (also don't like currents).

A small pleco species (some grow around 4-5 inches, others get enormous so watch out;-)) would be OK with any of this, so far.

Byron.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Sorry, busy few days with work....

Thanks all, your continued advice is great!

Ok, so I'm just going to wait till I get the 4ft tank before adding the boesmani's. That's a cert. 
One question I did have though Byron, both a friend if mine And the LFS have a boese and gourami tank, which both seem very happy etc together, so is it these got lucky? Adding at a young age etc? 

Just wondering as just got myself a 60 ltr ready to go quarantine tank and was unsurewhether to get the gouramis or not. I'm just getting mixed info.....


And still considering plecs to.... so much choice! Someone suggested the golden nugget to me, anyone have any experience with it? Average size etc, I read a maximum of 6 inches.....


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Nilet699 said:


> One question I did have though Byron, both a friend if mine And the LFS have a boese and gourami tank, which both seem very happy etc together, so is it these got lucky? Adding at a young age etc?
> 
> Just wondering as just got myself a 60 ltr ready to go quarantine tank and was unsurewhether to get the gouramis or not. I'm just getting mixed info.....


You will always encounter differing opinions on combining certain species, that is to be expected. And usually there are no rules "cut in stone." There are possible and sometimes probable issues, and the wise aquarist follows those to avoid risk to the fish. Individual fish within a species can behave differently for reasons science does not fully understand; but after all, so do people.

Gourami are slow, sedate fish. They should never be forced to live in an environment with active fish. And rainbows (the larger species) are active swimmers. This is why barbs and danios do not go well with gourami and angelfish, but rasbora and the more sedate characins generally do.

Whenever I hear that the fish in a tank are "doing fine" I really have to ask how one knows this. There are obvious things that can clue us in of course, but not always. An obvious example. Most members here will tell you that a 20g tank is not sufficient space for an Oscar, life-long. But there will be some who will say they have this and the fish is fine. The fish is eating, and it lives many years. It "looks" fine. But we know it is not fine. 

Once you confine a fish to an enclosed volume of water, the fish is at your mercy. They deserve the best, not experiments. I was reading an article last week in which the author commented that we are unwise to think we can change a fish that has evolved through natural selection over thousands of years, just by putting it in a tank.

Byron.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Byron said:


> You will always encounter differing opinions on combining certain species, that is to be expected. And usually there are no rules "cut in stone." There are possible and sometimes probable issues, and the wise aquarist follows those to avoid risk to the fish. Individual fish within a species can behave differently for reasons science does not fully understand; but after all, so do people.
> 
> Gourami are slow, sedate fish. They should never be forced to live in an environment with active fish. And rainbows (the larger species) are active swimmers. This is why barbs and danios do not go well with gourami and angelfish, but rasbora and the more sedate characins generally do.
> 
> ...


That whole post was well worth quoting and definitely the best I've read and a great philosophy to follow as a whole. 

I think I will get both the gouramis And the boesemanis then....BUT the gouramis now for the shorter tank and I will wait for the 4ft'r and the boesemanis can go in there withother fish more suited to them! 

Maybe I'll try and go with a few different gouramis together then. Maybe add in other more sedate species with them. I want happy, healthy fish after all.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Nilet699 said:


> Maybe I'll try and go with a few different gouramis together then. Maybe add in other more sedate species with them. I want happy, healthy fish after all.


This takes some careful thought too, combining gourami species. The smaller species can usually be combined successfully, but as soon as you move up into the medium to larger species, such as the dwarf, pearl, blue, etc., this is very risky. Males are territorial and more than one member has tried this only to have dead fish a cojuple months later when the gourami decide to "be themselves."


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Hmmm..... darn these fish are complicated. Good thing I love to just sit there and while away hours watching them  

Well I was thinking of going with a pair of dwarf neons tbh, so is there others suited to these, or am I better off leaving them as the only gouramis in the tank?


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## Canadian Fish (Feb 12, 2012)

I had a moonlight gourami get skiinny in my Rainbowfish tank and I am sure it was because the Rainbowfish were beating him to the food. 

That 6 minimum, can that be including other Rainbowfish? I have 6 Irian Red, 3 Blue and 3 Bosemani and they all seem to school together. No signs of racism or segregation amongst them. 

I keep my Rainbows with zebra loaches, catfish, and bristlenose pleco and everyone seems to get along famously. It's a busy tank, I tell ya.

Everyone follows me when I walk by the tank. Except the Catfish. They hate me, lol.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Nilet699 said:


> Well I was thinking of going with a pair of dwarf neons tbh, so is there others suited to these, or am I better off leaving them as the only gouramis in the tank?


Are we thinking the 4-foot tank here? Or the 3-foot? I guess I can respond for both. In the 3-foot, one gourami species (of these medium size species). In the 4-foot, you might have better luck. But again, individual fish can throw the wrench into this.


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## lakemalawifish (Nov 24, 2012)

I think it's wise also to wait on the larger tank for the Bosesmani Rainbows. We had 2 that came with a tank we bought and a mixture of other small community fish. I did not know much about them, but as I learned, we found out we had a breeding pair. The male has more orange and the female has more purple. They were just fine until the male reached puberty and one day I noticed he had this neon green stripe doing down the center of his head. I was afraid something was wrong with him, looked it up and found out. He was ready to tango...but the female was not interested. I contacted a friend of mine who is a breeder and he had been wanting a breeding group of Rainbows, so we traded some fish with him. He placed our 2 in a planted tank with several (I am not sure what the ratio was) other rainbows and sent me a pic. These fish look totally awesome in a planted tank with some small driftwood!!! If you go with these, try to copy their natural habitat as much as possible. You will not be disappointed, but... you may have some fry to deal with also if you have males/females. They are beautiful to watch when you have males and females courting, I would not put anything else in the tank with them. Don't you think it would be great to have some babies!


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

For the gourami byron I was thinking for the 3 ft tank so the boesmani can go in the 4 ft. 

And I was actually thinking of having all males in the other tank Malawi- for the reason of Not having little ones. I just wouldn't have the room now for an endless supply of them. Lol. Adding females later when I get a 6ft is a better option. In my mind at least.....


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Nilet699 said:


> For the gourami byron I was thinking for the 3 ft tank so the boesmani can go in the 4 ft.
> 
> And I was actually thinking of having all males in the other tank Malawi- for the reason of Not having little ones. I just wouldn't have the room now for an endless supply of them. Lol. Adding females later when I get a 6ft is a better option. In my mind at least.....


With the rainbows, or for that matter any of the egg laying fish, it is better to always have a mix of male and female. Some species require specific ratio of m/f because of their behaviours, but most are OK with a mix roughly equal. I would not intentionally get all males, or all females.

The reason is natural behaviours. If you want to experience the fish being themselves, this will be much more likely with a mix. Some species have quite interesting and beautiful behaviours and it would be a shame to miss these. And there is little doubt but that the fish will be less stressed and thus healthier if they can interact naturally as nature intended.

As for young surviving, this can occur but in most cases few and far between. Within the confines of an aquarium the parents will often eat the eggs when they find them, and if there are other fish in the tank they will almost certainly know what is taking place and stand guard waiting for the first eggs. I see this all the time, and it is rare than an egg hatches, or the fry then survive. And if any do, there is then the issue of food. Some will find live microscopic food, but this will not be sufficient for many.

Byron.


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## lakemalawifish (Nov 24, 2012)

Very good advice Byron. This does not pertain to having all males in a tank, but it reminded me of a situation we had with one female German Blue Dwarf Ram that we had taken in with some fish from an individual getting out of the hobby. After a few months of having this adorable Ram (named Koolaid because of the blue lipstick on her lips) she started pseudo spawning even though there were no males in the tank with her. This happened several times about every 2 months. We were trying to find a home for her with someone who had a male and was wanting to breed, but could not. I know she was carrying eggs because of her red belly, never saw her lay them or any fish eating them. Her last pseudo spawn, she must have been egg bound or something, but her belly swelled up as usual and was red but she must not have been able to pass the eggs for some reason. I tried feeding her peas thinking that might help with the constipation, but she would not eat. The water parameters in the tank were fine, all of the other fish were fine, she was not being picked on, had not changed her food, no other explanation. She just sat at the bottom of the tank and would not get up, RIP Koolaid we miss you!

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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Added 2 off these to my quarantine tank yesterday. Now to look out for some dwarf gourami disease .....


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

I'm quite proud of my work tonight  basic but dam that's effective! Tidy And I have the other half of my cupboard back!


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Does anyone have any idea what this is on my anubias? I've wiped it off on a previous occasion but as I presumed it's back. Is it bad for plant or fish? Should I remove it? And how? 

Lots of questions there


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Nilet699 said:


> Does anyone have any idea what this is on my anubias? I've wiped it off on a previous occasion but as I presumed it's back. Is it bad for plant or fish? Should I remove it? And how?
> 
> Lots of questions there


Looks like algae or diatoms. If it easily comes off with your fingers, it is probably diatoms, often called brown algae. This is common in new tanks, but after 3 months should not return. If it does, look into the possible causes (low light, silicates in the tap water, organics).

If it does not easily come off, then it is a form of green or red algae, I always think related to brush algae. I see this but usually on plants closer to the surface (light source) and worst on filter spray bars. Light is obviously the cause. This should not be present on Anubias, which being a low light plant should not be in direct bright light. In the shade of other plants, or under floating plants,m should keep this off Anubias.

Any type of algae on plant leaves is a concern since it can increase to the point where it smothers the plant respiration and assimilation of nutrients.

Byron.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Iv just given it the quick finger wipe check and it does indeed just wipe straight off. So I'm going to hope that as this tank isn't 3 months old yet it will disappear and I'll just continue to clean the plant. Thanks. 

Next question, as I'm just full of them tonight and I can't find a good answer anywhere.... when putting new water in my tank, looks very cloudy and has 'bits' in it, look like small fibres. Any ideas here?


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## fish monger (Dec 29, 2011)

Water taken quickly from the tap can have a cloudy appearance. Mostly it's air bubbles. The fiber thing is puzzling. Try letting the water run for a little while before adding any to your bucket or whatever. Could be some sort of residue from the pipes. Then again, and this is really reaching, maybe it's just stuff being stirred up from the bottom.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I agree on the cloudiness, this is usual though it does partly depend upon the condition of the tap water, and this can vary depending where your municipality gets it, weather, etc. Normally this clears up overnight. I did my water changes this morning, and my tanks are still not crystal clear but they will be tomorrow (or should be:lol.

If we have very heavy rains we sometimes see sediment in the tap water. Harmless to fish, though not nice to view through.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

So I've gone to clean the tank today, and just wondering if this is the brown hair algae discussed in the thread previously?

Think it is, so should I take take the wood out and wipe it all off? Or....suggestions? If it's just leave it etc I don't mind just rather do the right thing with it


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Nilet699 said:


> So I've gone to clean the tank today, and just wondering if this is the brown hair algae discussed in the thread previously?
> 
> Think it is, so should I take take the wood out and wipe it all off? Or....suggestions? If it's just leave it etc I don't mind just rather do the right thing with it


That whitish/grayish fluff is not algae, it is fungus, at least from the photo. I would get that out of there. What type of wood? Are there fish in this tank? How long has the wood been in with fish?


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Looking at the photo and the wood it looks much browner in the tank than the picture. Woods been in for about 3 weeks, same as fish who I would say have no ill affects etc. I'll get changed and take it out now, and take another pic, as didn't have time to clean earlier due to a funeral.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

The wood is mopani. 

Best 2 pics I could get as wiped bunch off with fingers, which came away brown, but suppose that could be wood though it doesn't stain my water.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I'm sorry I can't be more definite; photos are difficult to judge these things. Your photos are quite good, not that.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Scrubbed the wood and plants leaf by leaf, water looks like below. 

The wood was bought in a pet store and boiled solidly for 4 days before went into the tank.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

And nooooooooooooo.... I appreciate the input! Can you give me any types of algae etc... I'm going to Google etc now, but tbh, if I have to bin the wood and anubias I'll deal with it, but I do love that piece of wood as its cavelike. Lol.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Most of the #### that came off wood getting it out of my tank stuck to the front pane of glass... wiped it off obviously and looked very brown on a yellow sponge. 

Hell, ill throw in a pic of that too as I'm having a paranoid moment


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

There's probably no problem here. As for algae, here is a link to a couple of quite good descriptive sites:

Aquaticscape.com

Aquarium Algae Control; Brown Diatom, Hair, Marine, BBA, Green Spot & Water

Aquarium Algae ID (updated May6th '10 Surface Skum)

Understand I am not unreservedly endorsing any of the "treatments" so don't jump into that without posting so others of us can input. But these articles should help you understand the various types of algae and related issues.

Byron.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Ok, so ignore the fish, this is the best picture of my substrate I have on my phone (I'm at work) and as usual have a wandering mind. 

I'm definitely wanting time add a bristlenose pleco or 2 to my tank not too far down the line. So I'm wondering if the substrate should be changed to suit them. I'd quite happily change it out for dark sand if this was best as when I bought the substrate I just picked a pretty one. Haha.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

From the photo I can't tell if that gravel may be a bit rough, but that would be my concern. Soft-belly fish like the pleco can scrape themselves on gravel and rough rock, causing infections, which is why sand is preferred.

Loaches and corys would certainly be better over sand, if any of these may be down the road.

It is best to change a substrate at the beginning; once plants and fish become established this is more of a disruption to the system. There are a couple threads going presently about sand, and play sand is a common substrate for many of us. Check those out, or post questions here.

Byron.


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## Sookielee (Dec 18, 2012)

The substrate you have pictured look very much like the stuff that came with the tank a friend gave me. If it is, it is very rough. I removed it from the tank yesterday and actually felt like I got a few scrapes.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Ok, well I think now, though the plants and fish, 6 tetras are in may be the time to do it then. I was thinking black sand then really, or a very dark one at least. I have read the sand threads and tbh don't really know the difference between the sands, though I gather play sand goes in a kids sandbox? But wanting black I presume my local maidenhead aquatics is probably the answer. 

2 questions I have then, if I get black aquatic sand, is that all I need for the substrate? And secondly how do you clean it? What is considered clean? And lastly, would the 6 tetras be ok with 2 eon blue dwarf gouramis in a 54 ltr tank for an evening whilst I se this up? 

Not 2 questions at all that was it. Sorry!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Nilet699 said:


> Ok, well I think now, though the plants and fish, 6 tetras are in may be the time to do it then. I was thinking black sand then really, or a very dark one at least. I have read the sand threads and tbh don't really know the difference between the sands, though I gather play sand goes in a kids sandbox? But wanting black I presume my local maidenhead aquatics is probably the answer.
> 
> 2 questions I have then, if I get black aquatic sand, is that all I need for the substrate? And secondly how do you clean it? What is considered clean? And lastly, would the 6 tetras be ok with 2 eon blue dwarf gouramis in a 54 ltr tank for an evening whilst I se this up?
> 
> Not 2 questions at all that was it. Sorry!


Yes, sand is all you need for the substrate. You want about 2 inches depth overall. I know many like black substrates, but I have one and it shows the detritus the worst. A sand that is comprised of several colours will make the detritus less obvious. One reason I use play sand, second being its natural appearance, third its smoothness, fourth it is the least expensive.

As for cleaning, with substrate-rooted plants you rarely need to. During the water change you can run the siphon over the substrate to pick up loose matter; some tanks I do this, some I never do. With substrate-rooted plants you don't need to go poking or stirring the sand. I explain why in my article on bacteria.

The tetra will be fine with the gourami while you change this over. Do it early in the morning [say, an hour after tank lights come on], set aside the day so you are not rushed.

Byron.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Well, I took a small sample of my substrate to my lfs where I have a friend who works and he said what I have is more than fine for the bristlenose and loaches. The loaches I was thinking of getting, though not fully researched yet are polkadot loaches (or for you Byron, I know you love the scientific name.....botia kubotai  )


My newest issue as god knows I love them..... my new, read finally waterlogged, driftwood has developed a nice white slime. I Think this is normal, and if I'm right it's bacteria having a pop at the nutrients left in it??? There is also a Very small stream of super small bubbles coming from it.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Nilet699 said:


> My newest issue as god knows I love them..... my new, read finally waterlogged, driftwood has developed a nice white slime. I Think this is normal, and if I'm right it's bacteria having a pop at the nutrients left in it??? There is also a Very small stream of super small bubbles coming from it.


Bubbles are just escaping air, not a problem. The slime may or may not be trouble; it is likely fungus. I had this on a branch and it nearly killed my fish, and I know others who have lost fish. Some fungus is safe, some is highly toxic. What type of wood? The toxic fungus is common on grapewood, manzanita and possibly mopani. I have never heard of it on Malaysian Driftwood.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

I have absolutely no idea what wood it is. It was in a differentdry display tank when I bought my tank and I cheekily asked if I could have it, didn't think then to ask what it was. IWork wasn't cheap though! I can throw you a picture of the wood and the slime on it if you think it would help?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Nilet699 said:


> I have absolutely no idea what wood it is. It was in a differentdry display tank when I bought my tank and I cheekily asked if I could have it, didn't think then to ask what it was. IWork wasn't cheap though! I can throw you a picture of the wood and the slime on it if you think it would help?


Yes.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Ok, wood pic was easy, the one of the 'slime' was a bit harder as had to zoom quite a bit and taking the wood out isn't an option at Will due to its size and awkwardness at doing so, and no doubt stress caused. Hope these help though.....


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I can say the wood with the fungus (and that is what this is) is not Malaysian Driftwood. I think it is manzanita, but won't insist on that. The colour is a bit odd, but that may be due to the lighting and/or camera.

With so many species of fungus, it is impossible to say if this one is toxic or not; that would take an examination under the microscope by a microbiologist. So, you have two options. One is to remove the wood, boil it as much as you can, and replace it to see if this reappears. Second is to remove it and forget it; I had to do this with mine, after my attempts to clean it worked for a couple months, then the blasted fungus returned and fish began dying because it was on the back side and I didn't see it at first. Third is to leave it and watch for any signs of trouble: water may begin to cloud, whitish cloudiness; fish will become listless, lethargic; respiration will quicken, then some upper fish may begin to stay near the surface, and then gasp for air. This is going much too far, and will likely kill the fish by this time. But if you are prepared to leave the wood, those are the signs to look for. Again, this fungus may be harmless, but there is no way to tell except as I've set out.

In my case, the corys were first to be affected; they got listless, breathing much heavier than normal. At that point I removed the wood and did a 75% water change that solved the problem with no fish loss. I scrubbed the wood in boiling water, then placed it in a non-fish tank for 3 months with no sign of fungus, so it went into another fish tank. After a few weeks, fish began dying and I discovered the fungus had reappeared, so the wood went out to the garden.

Byron.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

This list is just for me as on phone - copy paspasting is fiddly -so i can look at the profiles and find the one I want. Haha

Ceratopteris cornuta*Echinodorus bleherae*Echinodorus cordifolius*Echinodorus major*Echinodorus X barthii*Helanthium bolivianus*Helanthium tenellum*Hydrocotyle leucocephala*Taxiphyllum barbieri


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

As per email JDM this is the tank and stand.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Oh and THINK your right JDM, seems aqua one do UK Australia and NZ.

Still, sure there must be another 80 cm wide tank in Canada that will fit nicely in your 81cm gap. Haha


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

It's actually not a gap, divider wall between two arches so it doesn't need to fit so much as to not be bigger. One item that I failed to mention, I am working with the wife factor. An aquarium was taboo until recently. We did pick out the unit together so I think changing it to a larger unit now might not go over well... I'm certain that she would notice the difference between a 25 and an 80 gallon tank. 

Thanks for the info though. I do have a much larger space that an aquarium would fit nicely into... we'll see how number one goes first.

Jeff.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Then JDM if You want a bigger tank today is the day to play your cards. It's Christmas after all and the best day, minus your bday I suppose, to play the "pleeeeeaaaase" card. Size matters J, and no one ever thought smaller was better. Point this out to your wife. Haha


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

My birthday was two weeks ago. I figure once I get this one running that a second is more likely. We're plant people and water plants are intriguing. Two tanks allow for more variety in fish anyway... Albeit smaller fish than one larger tank. 

Jeff.


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## Canadian Fish (Feb 12, 2012)

I got my first 55 gallon tank for my birthday last February (used) and I joined here the day before. 

We keep adding tanks (there's a moratorium on now) because of the variety issue. There's always a new fish we want to keep. Damn fish. They're addictive like crack. Mind you, we haven't been knocking over liquor stores to supply our fish habit. Yet. LOL. Just kidding.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

Canadian Fish said:


> .... Mind you, we haven't been knocking over liquor stores to supply our fish habit. Yet. LOL. Just kidding.


News flash:
"Ottawa area LCBO outlets have been targeted but what has been dubbed the "fishy crooks"."

I'll know who it was.

Jeff.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Haha but I bet you would!  
When you start seeing old ladies in the street and they suddenly turn into giant discus and large driftwood hovering you know that's the time to get out of the hobby


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