# Suggestions for my water parameters



## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

Hello all, It's been a long time since I was here. I'm in the process of cycling my tank. My water is alot different from where I used to live. I'm getting back in the hobby! Anyway, tank has been running for a few days so I know the cycle is not complete yet but I decided to test the water. I'm doing a 55g freshwater setup with malaysian driftwood that I used to have in a tank for years but is just now seeing water again and black sand. I do wanna add some rocks( not sure what yet ) and what I can have based on my parameters. My question is what fish would do well in these conditions? Also what would you suggest? Feel free to ask me any questions that might help in coming up with a plan. My parameters are as follows....

Ph- 8.0
Kh- 161.1
Gh- 232.7
Ammonia- 1.0
Nitrite- 0
Nitrate- 7.5

The thing that most concerns me is the Kh and the Gh. I will not go the route of altering this via chemicals. Not a option for me. Much rather find fish that would be fine with these parameters. Also I have a suspicion that they may change when the cycle is complete. Am I right? So excited to get back, but I wanna make sure I take it slow and smart. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

Welcome back into the hobby! You do have some hard water there, but that's not a big problem. African cichlids would do well in it, but I don't know if they are your thing. Guppies and other livebearer do well, too, but aren't for everyone due to that pesky habit of breeding like flies. 

But there are some neat hardwater fish that have come into the hobby recently. A lot of them are small, colorful shoaling fish. The Asian rummynose barb (_Sawbwa resplendens_) is my favorite. Emerald dwarf rasbora are also gorgeous. For some bottom-dwellers look at the Inle Loach (_Petruichthys brevis_) or some of the captive-bred corydoras species as they can tolerate harder water better than the wild-caught ones. A lot of rainbowfish are hard water fish too (if memory serves me right). 

Hope I've been able to give you some good ideas!


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

thekoimaiden said:


> Welcome back into the hobby! You do have some hard water there, but that's not a big problem. African cichlids would do well in it, but I don't know if they are your thing. Guppies and other livebearer do well, too, but aren't for everyone due to that pesky habit of breeding like flies.
> 
> But there are some neat hardwater fish that have come into the hobby recently. A lot of them are small, colorful shoaling fish. The Asian rummynose barb (_Sawbwa resplendens_) is my favorite. Emerald dwarf rasbora are also gorgeous. For some bottom-dwellers look at the Inle Loach (_Petruichthys brevis_) or some of the captive-bred corydoras species as they can tolerate harder water better than the wild-caught ones. A lot of rainbowfish are hard water fish too (if memory serves me right).
> 
> Hope I've been able to give you some good ideas!


I am considering african cichlids but I have driftwood in the tank and would like to add more not sure how that will be with cichlids.


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

This is what I have going on right now.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

Nice start, that screams Amazon to me, lots of wood, tannins floating plants with prolific roots, lots, and some serious moss. Of course that isn't really in synch with the harder water. (I am dealing with 23dGH if you want to talk about hard water). 

If you heavily planted it and didn't over populate the fish the water would soften somewhat, maybe get you under 10dGH and the pH could get into the lower 7's.

Jeff.


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

zombiefish610 said:


> I am considering african cichlids but I have driftwood in the tank and would like to add more not sure how that will be with cichlids.


Pretty sure they would be fine with it. Wood and rocks are usually used to 'scape cichlid tanks because they have a habit of eating most plants. Plus, if the wood has been in there a while a lot of the tannins will have leeched out. 

And that is an awesome start to a tank, btw!!! Love that wood!!!


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

Kinda leaning towards the cichlids. I've never done them before. I would like to attach some java moss to the wood in spots, I've had great success with it in the past. Just not sure how it will fare with the cichlids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

Ooh, I like the scape a lot! Very dramatic. What brand of sand is that? It's really pretty.


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## Tazman (Jan 15, 2012)

Tank is looking good, stick a pile of rocks dotted around and yes it would be suited to cichlids.

They will munch on the driftwood a bit but no destroy it, add a BN pleco or synodontis as a bottom feeder and it would be a nice tank.

There are some easier cichlids to start off with, these include yellow labs, cynotilapia afra, Rusty and acei, in a 55g tank look at about 12-15 in total. Ideally you want 1 male to several females although this is not always possible.


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

jentralala said:


> Ooh, I like the scape a lot! Very dramatic. What brand of sand is that? It's really pretty.


 Not sure of the brand of sand. Bought it at petco for about $20 per 20lbs bag.


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

Tazman said:


> Tank is looking good, stick a pile of rocks dotted around and yes it would be suited to cichlids.
> 
> They will munch on the driftwood a bit but no destroy it, add a BN pleco or synodontis as a bottom feeder and it would be a nice tank.
> 
> There are some easier cichlids to start off with, these include yellow labs, cynotilapia afra, Rusty and acei, in a 55g tank look at about 12-15 in total. Ideally you want 1 male to several females although this is not always possible.


 One thing I am sure of is I will be doing BN plecos. Had them in the past and I love em!


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

Hello again folks! Tank seems to be cycling fine. Got a nice new big piece of driftwood in the tank now after soaking. Moved things around a little. I wanted to post a new pic as well as report my water tests. Want to know what you guys think of the hardscape and get some thought on my water parameters. Any and all comments or suggestions welcomed. Please let me know if you see something wrong. Hope you guys like it. Water test results are as follows to date.

4/11/13
- Ph- 8.0
- Kh- 161.1
- Gh- 232.7
- Ammonia- 1.0
- Nitrite- 0
- Nitrate- 7.5

4/17/13
- Ph- 7.9
- Kh- 125.3
- Gh- 232.7
- Ammonia- 1.0
- Nitrite- 0.25
- Nitrate- 10.0

4/22/13
- Ph- 8.0
- Kh- 125.3
- Gh- 214.8
- Ammonia- 0
- Nitrite- 2.0
- Nitrate- 15.0

By the way I am doing a fishless cycle. Again, please let me know if you see anything that isn't right. Still unsure of what I want to stock. I think I will add some moss. Maybe some narrow leaf java fern, anubias and various crypts. Don't think I will add any rocks as the driftwood takes up a lot of space already. If I do it will be sparse. So basically what I'm looking for from you guys is to let me know if the water is looking good and if this was your tank, what would you add as far as fish. Also, the pic isn't too good because at the moment I only have my crappy phone camera, so coloration is not accurate. Thanks guys!


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

Looking good. 

Rocks would be lost. An assortment of short and taller crypts will do nicely although that wood screams for a carpet of green as it will overpower (visually) any plants you put in there. A row of vals across the back behind the wood would be the easiest to maintain and they'll throw out runners to fill in after a few months.

What are the lights?

Jeff.


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

JDM said:


> Looking good.
> 
> Rocks would be lost. An assortment of short and taller crypts will do nicely although that wood screams for a carpet of green as it will overpower (visually) any plants you put in there. A row of vals across the back behind the wood would be the easiest to maintain and they'll throw out runners to fill in after a few months.
> 
> ...


Odyssea 2x 54 Watts T5HO 
- Coralife Colormax 
- Coralife 10,000k

I also have a 6,700 bulb not certain what combo I will run yet.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

zombiefish610 said:


> Odyssea 2x 54 Watts T5HO
> - Coralife Colormax
> - Coralife 10,000k
> 
> I also have a 6,700 bulb not certain what combo I will run yet.


Drop the 10,000K altogether, that's not going to do much for freshwater plants at all... not sure about the colormax either... as long as both bulbs are 6,000K - 7,000K that should be lots of light. I suspect that the lights might be actually be more than what is needed but I don't know florescents, only LEDs. Floating plants should make it onto your list as well... are you still thinking cichlids? 

Jeff.


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

JDM said:


> Drop the 10,000K altogether, that's not going to do much for freshwater plants at all... not sure about the colormax either... as long as both bulbs are 6,000K - 7,000K that should be lots of light. I suspect that the lights might be actually be more than what is needed but I don't know florescents, only LEDs. Floating plants should make it onto your list as well... are you still thinking cichlids?
> 
> Jeff.


 Sorry correction its a 12,000k bulb not 10,000k. Just tried the 6,700 with the colormax and it looks better but not as bright. Also tried the 6,700 with the 12,000k, looks good too only brighter. The colormax is for plants (pink bulb) as well as enhancing fish color. I've had success with plants in the past with the colormax and 6,700 combo. I'm still thinking about cichlids but that would most likely limit the plants. It's still up in the air. Was kinda hoping my water parameters would make the decision for me but it's looking like I could go either way.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

zombiefish610 said:


> Sorry correction its a 12,000k bulb not 10,000k. Just tried the 6,700 with the colormax and it looks better but not as bright. Also tried the 6,700 with the 12,000k, looks good too only brighter. The colormax is for plants (pink bulb) as well as enhancing fish color. I've had success with plants in the past with the colormax and 6,700 combo. I'm still thinking about cichlids but that would most likely limit the plants. It's still up in the air. Was kinda hoping my water parameters would make the decision for me but it's looking like I could go either way.


Scientific tests have shown that aquarium plants do grow best under light that has peaks in the red, blue and green wavelengths. The red and blue are essential for photosynthesis, but the green clearly impacts this too, though this may partly be the brightness with green/yellow. The best tubes to achieve this are those with a Kelvin rating between 6000K and 7000K, or a CRI between 70 and 100.

So I would definitely use one 6700K tube. The second tube is really up to you, as you will get a different colour hue depending--as you already posted about. I prefer the crisper (brighter) appearance of the 10,000K or 11,000K mixed with a 6700K. Up to you though.

To your question on suitable fish, any that prefer hard water will be fine, and any that are OK with moderately hard water. Just avoid the very soft water fish. This is mentioned in our profiles of each species.

Byron.


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

Byron said:


> Scientific tests have shown that aquarium plants do grow best under light that has peaks in the red, blue and green wavelengths. The red and blue are essential for photosynthesis, but the green clearly impacts this too, though this may partly be the brightness with green/yellow. The best tubes to achieve this are those with a Kelvin rating between 6000K and 7000K, or a CRI between 70 and 100.
> 
> So I would definitely use one 6700K tube. The second tube is really up to you, as you will get a different colour hue depending--as you already posted about. I prefer the crisper (brighter) appearance of the 10,000K or 11,000K mixed with a 6700K. Up to you though.
> 
> ...


Thanks Byron, I can always count on you to know exactly what tou are talking about. Can you think of some fish off the top of your head that would do well in hard water. Also I know you have tons of knowledge when it comes to plants. If I were to stock cichlids, what plants would be ok and not be destroyed by the cichlids? Of course, plants that would do well with my setup without co2 and crazy ferts..


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

zombiefish610 said:


> Thanks Byron, I can always count on you to know exactly what tou are talking about. Can you think of some fish off the top of your head that would do well in hard water. Also I know you have tons of knowledge when it comes to plants. If I were to stock cichlids, what plants would be ok and not be destroyed by the cichlids? Of course, plants that would do well with my setup without co2 and crazy ferts..


The two obvious groups of fish that thrive in harder water are livebearers and rift lake cichlids. But there are several species that can manage, esp as yours is not overly hard (like the "liquid rock" some people have:lol. Most (but not all) of the Athernids (rainbowfish) come to mind, and there are some cyprinids, and a few characins.

Plants and cichlids depend upon the species. Some of the Central American species, which are generally larger though not all are, can sometimes dig them up, so plants attached to wood or rock like Anubias, Java Fern work best, and of course floating plants. Vallisneria species thrive in harder water, and grow naturally in the rift lakes, so these are a good choice with rift lake cichlids.

Byron.


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

zombiefish610 said:


> Hello again folks! Tank seems to be cycling fine. Got a nice new big piece of driftwood in the tank now after soaking. Moved things around a little. I wanted to post a new pic as well as report my water tests. Want to know what you guys think of the hardscape and get some thought on my water parameters. Any and all comments or suggestions welcomed. Please let me know if you see something wrong. Hope you guys like it. Water test results are as follows to date.
> 
> 4/11/13
> - Ph- 8.0
> ...


Here are some more recent test results. Everything seems to be going ok but I am concerned with a couple things. First, my Ph seems to be fluctuating. I know this is not good. I can tell you I have not yet done a water change since starting the cycle. I have topped the tank off a couple of times due to evaporation because I have the temp high to help stimulate the cycle. I have added a huge piece of driftwood that i had soaking for a couple weeks but is still releasing tannins. I guess my question is, is this normal due to cycling or because of the driftwood? I know the driftwood can lower Ph so I figure the fluctuations are do to topping off being that my tap seems to be around 8.0? If so, is there a way to stop this and will it happen after every water change? Also, my nitrates seem to be stuck where they are. Should I be adding more food? Anyway, here are the test results to date...

4/28/2013
Ph- 7.8
Kh- 125.3
Gh- 214.8
Ammonia- 0
Nitrite- 0.25
Nitrate- 10

5/2/2013
Ph-7.6
Kh- 125.3
Gh- 232.7
Ammonia- 0
Nitrite- 0
Nitrate- 10


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

Also, I'm thinking of going with this setup. Anybody see a problem with any of the selections I've made?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

There is a lot of wood in this tank--and again, I think it is outstanding--so this may be affecting the pH. Plus the cycling issues, I can't remember how these impact but they do.

Nitrate at 10ppm is not bad. It will take a while for this to lowser on its own, because the bacteria in the substrate that use nitrate are not there yet, with no organics.

Byron.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

Keep adding food. What may be happening, as far as nitrates are concerned is that you are not adding ammonia therefore no new nitrite which equals no new nitrates... it's not critical that you keep the ammonia up but it is important in that you need to get the cycle properly established as you don't want the nitrites to spike when you start adding fish to to an inadequate colony growth and it's nice to see it continually woriking.

Jeff.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

zombiefish610 said:


> Also, I'm thinking of going with this setup. Anybody see a problem with any of the selections I've made?


Yah... I don't have any of those fish.:-(

I might suggest dropping the moss balls.

Jeff.


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

Byron said:


> There is a lot of wood in this tank--and again, I think it is outstanding--so this may be affecting the pH. Plus the cycling issues, I can't remember how these impact but they do.
> 
> Nitrate at 10ppm is not bad. It will take a while for this to lowser on its own, because the bacteria in the substrate that use nitrate are not there yet, with no organics.
> 
> Byron.


 All of the wood except the large piece was in a tank I had going years ago and released most of its tannins already. So the majority if not all tannins are from that large piece I believe. If I'm not mistaken, the tank is cycled? Is there anything I should be doing at this point? This is my first fishless cycle. When should I do a water change? Should I keep adding food? Sorry for all the questions but like I said I'm new to the fishless cycle. How about my tank setup selections, see any issues?


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

Just figured I'd throw it out there that I am using sand. First time for that as well.


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

JDM said:


> Yah... I don't have any of those fish.:-(
> 
> I might suggest dropping the moss balls.
> 
> Jeff.


 Why drop the moss balls? Never had them before but I like the look. Was only thinking of 2 or 3.


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

JDM said:


> Keep adding food. What may be happening, as far as nitrates are concerned is that you are not adding ammonia therefore no new nitrite which equals no new nitrates... it's not critical that you keep the ammonia up but it is important in that you need to get the cycle properly established as you don't want the nitrites to spike when you start adding fish to to an inadequate colony growth and it's nice to see it continually woriking.
> 
> Jeff.


 How often would you suggest adding food and about how much?


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

zombiefish610 said:


> Why drop the moss balls? Never had them before but I like the look. Was only thinking of 2 or 3.


Personal preference maybe, no real reason, they just look so out of place in a tank to me.

... and they take up space where areal plant would go... I like leaves.

Jeff.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

zombiefish610 said:


> How often would you suggest adding food and about how much?


Just enough to keep a low level of ammonia being produced, you don't need a lot, and daily.... less than you would be feeding the fish. If you weren't adding plants I might say you would want more as you are really trying to get the tank working to the eventual ammonia source from the fish you are going to add. Seeing as the plants will circumvent a huge amount of the eventual ammonia from the fish you don't need that much.

Once you start adding fish, do yourself a huge favour and add them slowly though, weeks apart in small groups, let the tank stabilize between each addition.

When are you planting and how much?... if you already mentioned it I have forgotten.

Jeff.


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## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

zombiefish610 said:


> All of the wood except the large piece was in a tank I had going years ago and released most of its tannins already. So the majority if not all tannins are from that large piece I believe. If I'm not mistaken, the tank is cycled? Is there anything I should be doing at this point? This is my first fishless cycle. When should I do a water change? Should I keep adding food? Sorry for all the questions but like I said I'm new to the fishless cycle. How about my tank setup selections, see any issues?


A fishless cycle can drop the ph. It did in my case, but then I had much softer water than you do. Your tank is cycled to a degree, but you will still need to stock slowly like Jeff said. If you had gone the ammonia route then you would be able to stock everything practically from the get go since that way builds up a huge colony of bacteria. Using a small quantity of fish food only builds up a correspondingly small colony. Plants will help you out.

Love the hardscape btw.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

zombiefish610 said:


> Also, I'm thinking of going with this setup. Anybody see a problem with any of the selections I've made?


The isn't sufficient space in a 4-foot 55g tank for all of these together. The Denisons Barb needs a much larger tank on its own, see the profile. The rainbows are nice but being very active fish all three species will get in each others way; in a larger tank, they would make a very actractive mix.


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

JDM said:


> Just enough to keep a low level of ammonia being produced, you don't need a lot, and daily.... less than you would be feeding the fish. If you weren't adding plants I might say you would want more as you are really trying to get the tank working to the eventual ammonia source from the fish you are going to add. Seeing as the plants will circumvent a huge amount of the eventual ammonia from the fish you don't need that much.
> 
> Once you start adding fish, do yourself a huge favour and add them slowly though, weeks apart in small groups, let the tank stabilize between each addition.
> 
> ...


 Not a lot at first. Limited budget.:-(


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

Byron said:


> The isn't sufficient space in a 4-foot 55g tank for all of these together. The Denisons Barb needs a much larger tank on its own, see the profile. The rainbows are nice but being very active fish all three species will get in each others way; in a larger tank, they would make a very actractive mix.


I've never kept Denisons and really wanted to but I see your point. On the other hand, I've kept several rainbow species in the past in a 55g and they seemed to do great. Even got the Bosemani and some Blue Rams to breed in the same tank! What would you suggest?... as far as stocking goes.


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## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

thekoimaiden said:


> But there are some neat hardwater fish that have come into the hobby recently. A lot of them are small, colorful shoaling fish. The Asian rummynose barb (_Sawbwa resplendens_) is my favorite. Emerald dwarf rasbora are also gorgeous. For some bottom-dwellers look at the Inle Loach (_Petruichthys brevis_) .


I know you were asking Byron for suggests, zombiefish, but I couldn't resist bringing these back up. Throw in Devario auropurpureus and it's a biotope I wish my water matched without me having to fiddle with it.


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

blackwaterguy said:


> I know you were asking Byron for suggests, zombiefish, but I couldn't resist bringing these back up. Throw in Devario auropurpureus and it's a biotope I wish my water matched without me having to fiddle with it.


 I am digging the Emrald Dwarf Rasbora and the Asian Rummynose are nice as well. Both seem like a good contrast together. Maybe...the question now is where to get them...


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## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Best option would be if your LFS could order them for you. I've seen all four species for sale online, but that is going to cost more because of shipping. Finding the closest place to you would help that, but then there is the matter of you would need to stock slowly and couldn't buy in bulk to save. If you had to order online then I would try to use ammonia to fishless cycle so you could get most of the fish at the same time.


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

blackwaterguy said:


> Best option would be if your LFS could order them for you. I've seen all four species for sale online, but that is going to cost more because of shipping. Finding the closest place to you would help that, but then there is the matter of you would need to stock slowly and couldn't buy in bulk to save. If you had to order online then I would try to use ammonia to fishless cycle so you could get most of the fish at the same time.


What do I use for the ammonia source? Will it restart the cycle?


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## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

I used pure unscented ammonia. Actually was a pain to find. You need the kind without any additives at all. To test that you shake the bottle and if it foams it's not what you want. It won't restart the cycle, but it will lengthen it. You have the bacteria, you'd simply be building up the bioload they can handle from the start.

I think Byron has said this method would be bad for plants. I know others have said it speeds up growth. My frogbit died when I tried, but that was due to trying this method with softwater.

Now after saying all this I have to admit that using plants to cycle is now my preferred method. Fishless was a disaster, but again that was with my water. Plants are just simply the easiest and the method I prefer for myself.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

If plants and budget are not in sync, perhaps adding plants as you can to get them built up would be appropriate. Depending on how out of budget they are, you might find that the timeline is similar to adding the ammonia and bumping the cycle into a higher gear and safer for fish in the long run. 

Jeff.


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## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

JDM said:


> If plants and budget are not in sync, perhaps adding plants as you can to get them built up would be appropriate. Depending on how out of budget they are, you might find that the timeline is similar to adding the ammonia and bumping the cycle into a higher gear and safer for fish in the long run.
> 
> Jeff.


The ammonia method is 100% fish safe, well provided you do all the PWCs to lower nitrates before introduction. There will be plenty of nitrates. I simply can't speak for plant safety. I have heard various things, but without having done it with hard water I can't say which is correct. At no point were any of my fish in any danger.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

blackwaterguy said:


> The ammonia method is 100% fish safe, well provided you do all the PWCs to lower nitrates before introduction. There will be plenty of nitrates. I simply can't speak for plant safety. I have heard various things, but without having done it with hard water I can't say which is correct. At no point were any of my fish in any danger.


Adding a lot of fish at once no matter how the cycle is setup is asking for spiking problems. Plants act as an ammonia sink all the time which avoids many problems with the nitrogen cycle whether at fish introduction of down the road.

Either way can be safe, with the proper care and attention. The water needs to be monitored for a while after fish to be sure that everything is stable. Setting up plants to handle the ammonia is easier, faster and, I would still argue, safer, or at least less prone to what people call "new tank syndrome". 

I have hard water, 23dGh... If you are referring to the higher pH with harder water and the resulting higher ammonia/ammonium ratio, I didn't have any trouble with it and I didn't treat the water in any way. So far I haven't seen anyone with harder water than mine posting, at least since December. I'm sure there are some though.

Jeff.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I would certainly plant this tank first, and then start adding fish. I have set up dozens of new tanks by planting, and fish go in on day 1 with no issues. But for someone new to this, I do caution care, by adding a few fish to start. It becomes easier to guage as one gains experience. Forget adding any form of ammonia.

The Emerald Dwarf Rasbora would be good, but this is a very small fish; I have a group in my 33g, and they are almost lost; in a 55g they would be. Those rainbows were nice, just too many. A group (5-6) of the Red would be a start. Bear in mind that they are largish fish (at 5 inches) and will eat small fish.

Byron.


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

I think I will add plants first. Not decided on the fish anyway. I'll just get it planted and keep adding food I guess. Can anyone tell me when I should do my firdt water change?


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

If you are using food, you really only need to do one before the fish go in as you don't have a nitrite spike to deal with and your nitrates aren't likely to skyrocket if you are going ahead with the plants. Even then I'm not sure that it is needed so much as just a prudent cleaning house measure just to suck any crap off the bottom.

Jeff.


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## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

JDM said:


> Adding a lot of fish at once no matter how the cycle is setup is asking for spiking problems. Plants act as an ammonia sink all the time which avoids many problems with the nitrogen cycle whether at fish introduction of down the road.
> 
> Either way can be safe, with the proper care and attention. The water needs to be monitored for a while after fish to be sure that everything is stable. Setting up plants to handle the ammonia is easier, faster and, I would still argue, safer, or at least less prone to what people call "new tank syndrome".
> 
> ...


I would argue that the ammonia is actually safer for the fish as there are fewer variables to take into account. With plants you need to make sure they are growing, have species that are good at dealing with ammonia/nitrates, and stock slowly to avoid a spike.

A fishless cycle with ammonia will not cause a spike. With ammonia you dose to 4 ppm and when the tank can cycle that much all the way through to nitrates in a day you are cycled. Do you have any idea how many fish you would need to add to be at a level greater than 4 ppm a day and hence cause a spike?

So yes the planted cycle is fast in the initial introduction of fish, but not in complete stocking. Both ways are perhaps equally easy. Fishless being safer in my opinion. Zombiefish has already fishless cycled with fish food so I'm confused why you tell him to continue doing that but are so against using ammonia, which you've never tried. The point of using that method if fish are going to be order online is to be able to stock at once and combine shipping. That could save a lot of money whether the fish in question are the rasboras or rainbows.

Both methods work. If fish are local then a planted cycle is a good idea. I'm simply trying to present all the options since in this case one has an advantage lacked by the other. 

My reference to hard water was that when I fishless cycled my PH plummeted due to my having low KH. That and my attempting to raise the PH is what caused my frogbit to die. Zombiefish has a much higher KH than I do, so plants might be fine.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I think it is one thing to add a natural product like fish food and have ammonia being naturally produced, but quite another to be dumping pure ammonia in the tank, something I personally would never do.

The ability of plants to take up the ammonia is considerable. Floating plants are the easiest way to handle this. I have set up tanks with plants and fully stocked them the same day with no issues. I admit that the plants were healthy, coming from my former/other tank, and probably carried over bacteria as well (as would the chunks of wood and rock). If one is really timid using this method, it is always possible to seed the tank with a bacterial suplement as well. I used to do this, but don't bother now as I have become more confident of the plants method.

Byron.


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

This tank is going to be so gorgeous when it's all set up and running! I can't wait!!!



JDM said:


> I might suggest dropping the moss balls. Jeff.


NOOOOO!!! Mossballs are brilliant! Don't drop them. . . 
I've always regarded my Mossies more like animals than plants. They're fuzzy and they end up moving or being moved all around, either by the current, the keeper, or even the fish. I have them in every one of my tanks, and they all have names, because they're _SO SUPER CUTE!!! _*giggle* Mossballs are the greatest!

Love your sand! It looks like you have the PetCo brand version of the Tahitian Moon Sand that I have in most of my tanks. I just love the stuff! If it is what I suspect, you'll find that it's really easy to deal with, and ideal for a beginner. It tends to be a bit heavier/larger grained than other types of sand, including the play and pool filter sands that I've experimented with, and far less likely to be disturbed during maintenance, which could lead to ruined filters and such. You'll have to let me know how you like it!

Kudos to you for choosing to cycle your tank BEFORE adding fish - it's always nice to see people taking the time out to do things the right way for the safety of their fish! All of these methods, fish food, ammonia, loads of live plants - are valid in their own right, and initial stocking should be influenced by which method you have chosen. It all comes down to your experience and comfort level, really. 

From what I have read and experienced, using fish food will work to cycle a tank, but unless you are adding a LOT of food, a large bacterial colony won't be needed to keep up with the relatively low amount of waste/ammonia being created - most especially in a larger tank the size of yours. This method seems to work much better in a smaller setup. . . The end goal of getting bacteria into the tank will be accomplished, which gives you a lovely head start, as it will then grow more quickly to accommodate the waste of the fish added than if you had started stocking with a clean setup. Using the ammonia method will have the same desired result, only in reverse. When dosing a tank to 4ppm of ammonia, you're ensuring that you have far MORE bacteria than will ultimately be necessary for most stocking scenarios, and the 'extra' will die off when the tank is stocked, and there is not enough ammonia created by the fish wastes to support it. Using ammonia will allow you to safely stock more animals initially without as much worry over parameters, using fish food will require that you pay VERY close attention, as you will have to give the bacteria a chance to 'catch up' with the increased waste produced by a fish - who also gets food.

Since the end_ visible _result of the nitrogen cycle is nitrate, the wisest course of action would be to base your initial stocking on the nitrate level that you end up with once it stabilizes - regardless of the cycling method used OR plants in the system. All of these methods are valid, cycling with fish food will force you to stock slowly, pure ammonia will allow you to stock more quickly. . ._if_ stocking quickly is necessary due to online purchases. In my experience, growing a tank slowly is the best way to go, but it isn't always possible, depending on availability - especially with those fish that require shoals. I tend to prefer to play things safer than sorry, and try to have more bacteria than I need in any new tank before stocking. I view plants as a 'cushion' that allow me a bit of wiggle room - in case my estimations are off. 

It can be difficult, especially for a beginner, to try to guess at what you can stock based on bacteria that can't be seen and counted! I would suggest that the best way to go about this is to take a good look at your stocking list, and local availability, and proceed from there once your cycle is complete. Get your plants into the tank, and give them time to settle in before adding stock, that way you know they'll be working to keep the water clean if any issues occur. The next time you have to do this, it will be MUCH easier for you, as you will be able to seed the tank from the established colonies already present in this one. Also as you become more familiar with the effects of various fish on your parameters, and how different types of plant-life do in your system, you'll find that much of this will become intuitive. For now, go slow and be careful!

One thing I haven't seen mentioned here (sorry if I missed it) is if you have, or are planning to start, a QT tank? After the initial batch of fish goes in, it is always a good idea to QT the next group before adding them. . . 

I can't wait to see what your final stock list looks like, and to see this gorgeous set up start coming to life! Keep us posted!


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

Yes it is Petco sand and so far I love it. Glad I finally found black sand somewhere local! Thanks so much for the great comments! I don't have a QT tank. Not sure if I will. I know it's a good idea but the smallest tank i have is a 29g and I have no room anywhete to put it. I do plan on acclimating the fish very slowly with a drip method. Since I brought it up, what is the best way to acclimate? I am in no rush.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

zombiefish610 said:


> Yes it is Petco sand and so far I love it. Glad I finally found black sand somewhere local! Thanks so much for the great comments! I don't have a QT tank. Not sure if I will. I know it's a good idea but the smallest tank i have is a 29g and I have no room anywhete to put it. I do plan on acclimating the fish very slowly with a drip method. Since I brought it up, what is the best way to acclimate? I am in no rush.


I start by removing some of the water from the bag, if the store has put a lot in as some do. Then float the bag in the aquarium for 10-15 minutes; this equalizes the temperature in the bag water to the tank. Then add some of the tank water to the bag [the reason for lowering the bag water initially is here]. I use a cup. Wait 10-20 minutes, then repeat with another sup of tank water, and wait. Depending upon the fish species, I may do this once, twice, three or more times. Then net the fish out of the bag and into the tank. Never tip the bag and let any of the bag water get in the tank [it contains stuff you do not want, whether simply ammonia and pheromones/allomones from the fish, or pathogens from the store tanks/fish].

Some use a drip method. Pour the fish and bag water carefully into a small pail. Then use a piece of plastic tubing (air line) to drip water from the main tank slowly into the pail. After the water in the pail has doubled, net the fish into the tank.

These methods apply whether in a quarantine or the display. But when moving the fish from the QT to the display, I don't usually do all this; depends upon the fish and the water parameters.

Byron.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

Chesherca said:


> NOOOOO!!! Mossballs are brilliant! Don't drop them. . .
> I've always regarded my Mossies more like animals than plants. They're fuzzy and they end up moving or being moved all around, either by the current, the keeper, or even the fish. I have them in every one of my tanks, and they all have names, because they're _SO SUPER CUTE!!! _*giggle* Mossballs are the greatest!
> /QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Something to keep in mind about the two methods of "cycling" is that the bacteria and plants are in competition for all the ammonia they can grab. And stem plants and floating plants and some other faster growing types will win because they are faster at taking up ammonia than the Nitrosomonas bacteria [initially] or the subsequent Archaea.

My thinking is that when plants are intended, start with them and give them a good head-start to establish a natural balanced system faster. Encouraging bacteria/archaea in a planted tank is not advisable; let what is naturally there be there, but don't try to increase it at the expense of the plants.

Byron.


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## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Byron said:


> Something to keep in mind about the two methods of "cycling" is that the bacteria and plants are in competition for all the ammonia they can grab. And stem plants and floating plants and some other faster growing types will win because they are faster at taking up ammonia than the Nitrosomonas bacteria [initially] or the subsequent Archaea.
> 
> My thinking is that when plants are intended, start with them and give them a good head-start to establish a natural balanced system faster. Encouraging bacteria/archaea in a planted tank is not advisable; let what is naturally there be there, but don't try to increase it at the expense of the plants.
> 
> Byron.


They are mutually exclusive why? Plant the tank, with the OP's parameters a ph drop significant enough to harm the plants is unlikely. Use ammonia and grow the plants and bacteria. If when the fish are added only the plants use the ammonia they provide then so be it. There will not be any worrying about spiking parameters. 

Again I have used both methods, both work well. One or the other might have advantages in a given situation. I really have no dog in this race, other than to fight the total bottleneck of opinion. All things that do not adversely effect our fish are worth looking at and considering.


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

Figured I'd share a update photo. Still no fish, working on some plants first. Picked up a few plants. Here is what it looks like currently...Oh and again, sorry for the crappy pic but you get the point. I just wish you guys could see how it really looks in person...


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

It's a _GREAT_ shot - of a _LOVELY _tank! Off to a great start, this one is a beauty ^.^ I can't wait to see where it goes next!


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

Chesherca said:


> It's a _GREAT_ shot - of a _LOVELY _tank! Off to a great start, this one is a beauty ^.^ I can't wait to see where it goes next!


I will keep you guys updated. Thanks a bunch!


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

I added some moss. Plan to add more just couldn't get it all at once. Anyone have any extra they are willing to donate?


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

I keep having to trim my moss... so far I haven't thrown any out though... new tank, little jug stuff.

I like the look on the driftwood. Did you tie it down? It isn't obvious in the picture.


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

Yes it is tied down. I used to use fishing line but this time I went the thread route.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

Yes it is tied down. I used to use fishing line but this time I went the thread route.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

Well I have planaria and snails...damn. Before I added plants i did a dip of jungle's clear water for 15 minutes as per suggestions from others. Apparently that didn't work. So now I gotta go another route for eliminating the snails. As for the planaria..its probably because I have only done one water change since I set the tank up other than top offs. I know people say to do a good gravel vacuuming and change water. Unfortunately, I have sand so I can't do that. Any suggestions? I know neither of these are bad but I don't want them. Fortunately, I have no fish in the tank yet so my options are not limited except for worrying about the plants. What should I do?
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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

Sand changes how and what you need to do. Vacuuming just over the sand to suck up any build up won't bother the sand, you don't need, nor want, to dig into it like you do gravel, just pick up the visible stuff and into the corners and edges. 

Water changes should be done regardless, vacuuming can be optional. I happen to just do water changes now and haven't had to vacuum in months, the snails look after breaking down some of the waste so it actually just decomposes into the water, then the changes take it out.... or it turns into ammonia and CO2 which helps feed the plants.

I actually saw my very first fish poop the other day after having this tank setup for 5 months... it was just sitting on a smooth piece of driftwood.... I had to double take and thought, "so that's what it looks like".

Jeff


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

I haven't done another water change yet because I been super busy. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure you were the one that told me not to do a water change yet and also told me to feed the tank. Which is probably the reason I have the planaria because of uneaten food. I apologize if it was not you. Guess I gotta go back and look at earlier posts to be sure.
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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

Don't apologize, it was me.

May 2 I followed up a previous suggestion of adding food to adding a little bit of food to keep up the ammonia source.

How much was your little bit? Even for a tank that size I would expect that would be tiny pinches.

May 3 I suggested a water change before adding the fish and a vacuum to suck up the extra crap.

Somewhere I assumed that fish were on their way shortly. This will be four weeks of tank feeding since then... I'm not sure that I would have meant to keep it up for that long every day but I can't recall exactly what I thought you were planning at the time. Most (at least a lot of people) are so anxious to get fish in they they barely wait for the cycle to get running first. 

If you have fish in there now you need to do the changes as I just mentioned, if you don't, it's not necessary unless you want to reduce some levels of nitrates or just to freshen the water. Planaria are not the end of the world (not parasitic) and snails are good. The choice was to add food or to add pure ammonia (Blackwater guy's suggestion). Either served the same purpose. You could do a large water change and do a thorough vacuum to reduce the food for the planaria, I expect that the tank's biofilm is well established now and it could stand not being "fed" for a while.

When are the fish going in?

Jeff.


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

I only fed the tank maybe four times tops and it wasn't much at all. Haven't really stressed the water changes because there are no fish and I was adding plants. If you read my previous posts you will see that I'm in no hurry to add fish. I want to add the majority of plants before the fish and let everything stabilize. Also, as I already mentioned..I know planaria is not bad as well as the benefits of the snails. I just don't wanna look at them. That's why I posted. I'm not freaking out or anything. I'm just looking for some thought on methods of eradication. I know the normal tricks. ie lettuce, picking em out, loaches, assassin snails. I know people are against snail killing chemicals but I imagine it is mostly because of effects on fish/inverts in the tank and the ammonia spike from a mass die off. In my case though it may be a option considering I have no fish in the tank. I personally never hav
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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

Cont. Sorry accidentally hit reply..anyway..I have never used such a chemical. So I guess I'm looking for someone with experience to help me understand more about it, such as if it is a good option in my case and if it will have a negative effect on my plants? Where are you at Byron?..lol. Oh and of course what to use.
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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

The fish will be going in when the tank is ready. Not when I am.
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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

So..tested the water today. Here are the results
Ph- 7.8
Kh- 125.3
Gh- 250.6
Ammonia- 0
Nitrite- 0
Nitrate- 10

After I did the testing I grabbed a chair and got real close to the tank and watched for a while. Turns out there are several types of critters in there! I got the typical 1mm long white worms, there are a few larger squiggly ones about a 1/4 in. long and of course some snails. With futher inspection I noticed another critter. This one concerns me because I never seen them before. They are about 1mm long but they have a fatter head(im guessing) and the tail end is split like a Y. They move spastically sometimes in circles and they are fast. I also seen one clearly swimming through the water in a squiggly motion like young fry and quickly! The others kinda just free float in the water when not on the glass. Anybody have any idea what the last ones are? The ones with the Y shape. Please help me! Also, why all these critters when the water is fine? I have low nitrates...10. I'm also getting several types of algae. Nothing significant at the moment. I might add that I think the Y shaped ones have legs because when moving on the glass they don't appear to leave the surface of the glass. Again, movement seems random and fast. They move like a common fly would. Help anyone?
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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

Anyone?
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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I have various sorts of life in my tanks; even with my glasses I can't make most of it out. But if food was being put in the tank with no fish, and no snails, you can expect critters to appear.


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

Have you ever seen the ones I was talking about?
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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

zombiefish610 said:


> Have you ever seen the ones I was talking about?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think so. Most of what I "see" is pretty small, nothing more than a speck.


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

Anyone else have any idea about these?
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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

No.

But Byron brings up a good point. I had actually started a response but got sidetracked. 

I was going to suggest adding some snails, nerite snails (tiger, zebra....) to compete for the food sources in the tank. If you only added food a few times I expect that these guys may have shown up anyway. These snails don't reproduce in freshwater, are fairly large and do a wonderful job of housecleaning. I have four, along with an assortment of pond and MTS, but the tigers really do wonders. I haven't cleaned the glass in months and it is clear as... well... glass. They even chowed down on a fungus I had on one of my driftwood pieces a while back.

Jeff.


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## zombiefish610 (Feb 27, 2009)

Not really into snails. Also, there are snails in there as they came in with one of the plants..
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