# New 55 Gallon Freshwater Tank / First Timer



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

For father's day my wife has let me buy an aquarium and I was lucky enough to get my hands on a 55 gallon set up off of craigslist with all the trimmings, everything but plants and fish. I've done quite a bit of research over the last month, reading up on the nitrogen cycle, equipment, fish, etc. Along with visiting several LFS and talking to anyone who will listen about it. I'm just going to toss out my plans, a few questions and any advice/suggestions are more than welcome.

Freshwater tank. Easier, cheaper, more goober proof.

Fish:
Neon Tetra (~12)
Rummy-nose Tetras (~8)
Serpea Tetras (~8)
Panda Cory Catfish (~4)
Red Tailed Black Shark (1)

Fake plants. I want to plant my tank eventually but I figure I'll save myself the added complication to begin with. Just how much cover do the tetras need to relax? One thing I've found is that decorating a 55 gallon tank is far more expensive than I'd have guessed.

Substrate. I was initially planning on using small red/brown river pebbles from Lowes, I was thinking it would set off the colors of the tetras nicely and it looks more natural to me. However I was reading that the corys would do better with a sand substrate. So now I'm considering either splitting the tank with half sand and half pebbles or even mixing the two, mostly sand but with some pebbles mixed in. Is there anything special I would need to know about using sand as a substrate? I was planning on using play sand from Lowes if I went with it. Also, will the corys really benefit from the sand or will they do just fine with the pebbles?

The shark. The advice I have received in regards to the RTBS is that it can be just fine in this tank if I introduce it properly. If the shark is the last fish added to the tank, and it is still young it will do just fine with the other fish, ignoring them as it grows up.

The number of fish. I think I'm fine with the number of fish I'm planning on, would I still have enough space for a small school of harlequin rasboras or maybe some more corys?

My filter is an Emperor 400.

This tank also comes with an undergravel filter but I have no intention of using it. Since it's coming with an air pump and I like bubble stones I was planning on putting one or two in the corners of the tank, just for visual appeal and maybe a bit of added aeration.

That's everything I can think of at the moment.


----------



## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

Cories definitely benefit from sand, when I switched mine over they were *thrilled* and are now very chubby. Sand's no different from any other substrate except that you have to make sure to vacuum it so no air bubbles form. If anyone tells you sand and plants don't work, have a look at my aquarium log  If you decide not to go with sand, those pebbles sound ok. Just make sure they aren't sharp, as that's the major concern.

Mixing the sand and pebbles won't work because the sand will all sift to the bottom, and the rocks will end up on top. I believe it's called the "Brazil nut effect".

Sounds like everything else is under control stocking wise. The only thing I would suggest is to add more cories. Cories are shy in small groups and need at least 6 to be active and happy. 8 would be better (and cute!). Just so you know, Pandas ship notoriously badly. Make sure you're going to a reputable fish dealer and that they have been at the store for at least a few days, preferably a week. Otherwise they probably won't all survive in your tank, and you run a serious risk of getting any other fish sick. You may want to add the pandas first and make sure they are all healthy before you add any other fish. That way the main tank will act as a QT.

It sounds like you're doing your research, but I wanted to make sure, you're cycling this tank, right? Also, make sure you don't add all the fish at the same time or you'll have an unfortunate ammonia spike.


----------



## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

First off, the sand will absolutely benefit the cories. Play sand works great; I have it in my 29g. When you get it, put it in a big bucket in the yard and rinse it over...and over...and over. It took me forever until the water was clear, but from what I've heard it's worth it, as it will likely cloud your water pretty bad if you don't do this. With sand, you absolutely cannot use that undergravel filter. You also need to keep the sand stirred in order to prevent anaerobic pockets from forming. You can do this yourself with a plastic fork during water changes, but it helps to have some of your critters do the work for you. Your cories will certainly help keep it sifted, but I would also look into getting Malaysian Trumpet Snails. They'll burrow through the sand to keep it sifted. You can buy the snails, but also just about every Petsmart I've been to has had an MTS infestation and they'll be more than happy to give you some for free.

Your stocking list looks good, but I would get at least 6 cories for the best results. The serpae tetras are also known to be one of the nippier tetras, so you might have to watch out for that. The RTBS should be ok. They can be aggressive towards others of their own species and some loaches, but I think it will leave your other fish alone or at the worst, chase some of them off from time to time. You might also want to consider something for your top levels, such as danios or hatchets or even guppies. All of your fish are mid to bottom level swimmers.

Sounds like you're off to a great start. Keep us updated on the tank!


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

Yes, the neons were going to be my cycling fish.

I wasn't going to mix the sand and stones so much as have small patches of stones in the substrate. Is there any difference in vacuuming sand as opposed to pebbles, can I still use a python?

Adding more corys isn't a problem. Every time I see the little guys I like them more. 

Would the Rasboras be a problem in the tank?


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

iamntbatman said:


> Malaysian Trumpet Snails.


Will these snails stay in the sand? I know some people like snails but I'm not wild about them.



> You might also want to consider something for your top levels, such as danios or hatchets or even guppies. All of your fish are mid to bottom level swimmers.


Will guppies work with the serpaes? I like guppies but held off because of the nippiness of the serpaes and was worried they'd go right for the guppy's tails.

One thing I forgot to mention, I'd like to have some shrimp in my tank. Will they work with what I'm planning to stock it with? And what's a colorful variety, I can get ghost shrimp very easily but... well you can't see the dang things.


----------



## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

Your RTBS will probably eat the shrimp. Red cherry shrimp are great looking, but at $5 a pop, I'm not sure they're worth the risk.

Sand vacuuming is the same, I use a python in mine.

Malaysian trumpet snails are great for sand. I don't see much of mine, as they borrow in the sand. You'll definitely see some from time to time, but they are rather inconspicuous and quite pretty actually.

What sort of Rasboras were you thinking?

I'd worry about fancy guppies with the serpae, it's probably best to stay away from them. Plus, livebearers are a pain in the butt! Too many fry 

Gourami would make a great addition to the tank. Pearl and honey gourami are both very peaceful and pretty.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

Pity, would have been nice to have some shrimp. Well ghosts are cheap, maybe I'll give my RTBS a treat once in a while.

If the snails will help keep the sand clean and stay out of sight most of the time then they'd make a good addition.

I was thinking harlequin rasboras.

The dwarf and honey gourami's both look quite lovely.


----------



## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

Harlequin's should work quite well in that tank- they tend to use more of the water column than tetras so they will be a nice addition.

Dwarfs gourami will probably be too territorial to have more than one. They are also very heavily bred with hormones, so it's not a fish I would advise. The fish are pumped up with hormones so they all come out male, and as colorful as possible. Unfortunately, it has made them much less hardy and it's also become almost impossible to find a female.

Both pearl and honey gourami should be hardier and are much more docile. However, it's probably a good idea to watch out for them with the serpaes again


----------



## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

Oops, I forgot to mention that mixing the serpaes and guppies is a bad idea. The serpaes and gouramis might also be a tough mix, since the gouramis won't really appreciate nippy fish, either. If you get dwarf gouramis, I wouldn't get more than 2 even in a 55g tank. They can get pretty aggressive towards one another and need to be able to get away from each other. Honey and sparkling gouramis are less aggressive so you should be able to have a few of those. The bigger gouramis, such as golds, blues, etc can get fairly large and are very aggressive towards their own kind. 

I don't think the RTBS will eat shrimp unless the shrimp are young, at least until the RTBS has some size on him. Until he's pretty big, I think your ghost shrimp would probably be fairly safe. I still wouldn't risk the more expensive cherry shrimp, though.

Personally, I would ditch the serpaes in favor of the harlequin rasboras. They'll go well with the rest of your stocking list and will allow you greater options in other fish to add. Not to mention they spend more time in the middle/top levels of the aquarium. Switching the serpaes out for rasboras will allow you to more safely keep something like guppies or gouramis for the top levels of the aquarium. If you decide to get any kind of livebearer (like the guppies) they will have tons of fry unless you get all of one sex. For guppies, a group of males will get along and be good-looking fish.


----------



## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

+1 on ditching the serpaes, that would open up so many possibilities.

Personally, I love Threadfin Rainbowfish and would recommend them if you didn't have the serpaes.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

As limiting as the serpaes might be they are also the fish that convinced me to do a tetra set up. Only the RTBS is more firmly entrenched in the set up. If they are going to limit my options with what I can have in the tank well I might just forgo another species and pile on a few more of the serpaes or one of the other tetras. I appreciate the advice, I really do, but the serpaes are going to be part of the line up and will have to be worked around.


----------



## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

It's no problem! We aren't trying to sell you on anything. If you like the serpaes you can certainly keep them.

The threadfin rainbows are also very nice, but won't work with the serpaes. Praecox rainbows would probably be ok, though. Another top-dweller you could consider would be hatchet fish. They can move fast and don't have flowing fins, so they wouldn't be targets for the serpaes. They also need to be in a school and need to be well covered as they're known to be excellent jumpers.

However, having larger groups of fish, as you've already suggested, is certainly another option. Schooling fish always look better the more you have, so increasing the numbers on the fish already on your list would work as well.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

I've been doing more research on the serpaes and I have a question about their nippiness. Most of what I've read seems to indicate that they are nippy with other fish when they don't have enough of their own kind in the tank. Since I'm planning on having at least 8 but probably closer to a dozen of them would this be enough to keep them occupied and leave some gourami's or guppy's alone.

Also, and this probably sounds a bit cold hearted, would the rest of the tank's residents keep the guppy's fries in check?


----------



## thespiff (Nov 12, 2007)

I know the "Serpaes are nippy" factoid is one of those tried and true basic fish facts, up there with "Goldfish are dirty" and "Cichlids are always meaner than you think", but do you think Tyyrlym should be really worried about his fish getting harassed? In a 55 gallon tank, with the stocking that he's describing and assuming it is well decorated, there should be a good amount of space and cover for fish to stay out of each other's way, shouldn't there?

Aside from that, I have Rummynoses, Neons, Harlequins and Swartz Cories together in my 30 gal hex tank and they are doing great together (play sand substrate, fake plants).


----------



## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

In regards to sand I would simply add that it might be wise to shut off filter while doing maint. the first few times. That way if you stir up the sand with vaccum more than you intended, The sand won"t wind up in your filter gears, motor, bearings etc. I recently went with sand in 29 gal. And found it better to hover a little higher with gravel vac than you would with pebbles. :wink:


----------



## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

It's true that the larger groups you keep them in, the less of a problem they are, but likelihood is they will still take a bite out every once in a while.

I'd recommend adding the serpaes and seeing how the act around the other fish. If you think they keep to themselves mostly, you can try to add one of those other fish. Just be prepared to rehome them if something goes wrong.

As for the guppy fry, theoretically, yes. However, if you've got a heavily planted/decorated aquarium it may not work out that way. In fact, I had a chinese algae eater in with some guppy fry and even he couldn't take care of the problem! Another alternative is to get only males.

Hatchetfish are another cool top-dweller that wasn't mentioned before. So are halfbeaks. Both of those guys stick up at the top about 99.9% of the time. And they're funky looking!


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

Well I haven't checked my LFS (where I plan to buy all my fish) but I'm pretty sure Petsmart stocks nothing but male guppies, they're all pretty darn flashy so I don't think any are females. I dunno, might be kinda fun to have some little ones swimming around the tank, though I'd have to see if my LFS would accept them since I can't have them over running the tank. I do like the idea of some guppies in my tank, I think I have a thing for small flashy fish. The gouramis look nice too. I'll just have to see what I want to do when the time comes, since these would be the last species added to the tank prior to my RTBS they're probably three or four months from getting bought.

The hatchetfish are an interesting idea. I'll have to inspect the hood when it gets here to see if I could have them.

I'm definitely going with a sand substrate, I'd love to do black sand to give the cories a good home and set off the tetras but paying $50 for enough sand to cover the tank bottom is more than I can swing right now.


----------



## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

Another solution to a guppy fry problem: make friends with someone who lives nearby and owns some cichlids. My sister's boyfriend keeps a decent-sized Texas cichlid, so I always have somewhere for my guppies to go (i.e. in the cichlid's stomach) if they get out of control.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

Well good news, my equipment made it to me. Now the cleaning can begin.

First up is the tank and stand:










It looks good, no leaks, no cracks. The stand is a simple angle iron affair that I know will hold the weight but I'd prefer something a bit more substantial aestheticly.

The bio wheel filter turns out to be a Penguin 300, not an Emperor 400.










I'm a little concerned about the Penguin 300, just because its out of production and finding appropriate parts and such for it. Yes, I have the rest of the uplift tube and the cover I just left them off for the picture.

Also part of the deal were these power filters.










I haven't yet confirmed that they have all their parts but they do look to have most of them. At the very least I should be able to scavenge enough to put one of them back together. That'd be great since I'd have a back up filter if the Penguin ever conks out or just a working filter for my next tank. Oh, and yes the motors and impellers work just fine on all three HOBs.

I also got two light fixtures. A single 48" long affair and two 24" ones. 










Unfortunately the long fixture's only markings turned up nothing in google though the bulb is marked T8. I really have no idea if this is a good fixture or not but it is fluorescent. The bulbs work for now which is what counts, in a few months when I've got some more cash I'll likely replace the bulbs with ones I know are gonna be fine.

Since the old tank had yet ANOTHER filter, an undergravel one, it came with a pretty substantial air pump and gang valve. The only use I have for it is to run a pair of air stones for the tank. I'm a little concerned about just the size of the thing and its potential power use. I may hock this thing on e-bay or something and use the proceeds to buy a more appropriately sized air pump.










I also got a gravel vac, a simple siphon not a python, and a heater. The heater is tragically undersized at only 50 watts. Since my office can get cold in the winter I'm planning to eventually have two 100 watt heaters. During my cycle period of the tank I'm going to monitor the temperature of the tank and see if the 50 watt can handle the 3-4 degree temperature raise over ambient (I'm not hopeful) and if it can I might be able to wait on buying another 100 watt heater for a while and save the second for closer to winter.

I also received a lot of slate with this tank which I'm already planning on turning into some caves for my fish.










I also got some quartz gravel, which is useless to me since its jagged as all get out and I'm going to have catfish in my tank. Sand ho.

I do have one question, what would make a good cleaner to clean all this stuff up with. A mild bleach solution? Most of this stuff should come off with a little elbow grease but some of the uplift tubes for the filters and the gravel vac look like they could use a soak in something.


----------



## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

I recently received a 75gal. tank from my brother that he had set up as saltwater. I used warm water and vinegar and a new brush and everything cleaned up nicely. It is now home for dwarf cichlids.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

Speaking of dwarf cichlids, I've been looking around and Blue Rams are nice looking fish and a good size as well.


----------



## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

The blue rams are small and for the most part peaceful towards tankmates except during spawning activities. They are very sensitive to nitrites and poor water conditions and thrive at temp. of 82 to 84 degrees. Sadly they are a short lived fish 3 maybe 4 years in ideal conditions. Tank raised specimens as opposed to the ones imported from the east seem to do better. I have never been able to sustain the imported ones for more than eight momths. Currently have seven of the tank raised specimens and for my money they have more personality than many people I have known.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

That's pretty warm. I was planning on shooting for 78 degrees or so.


----------



## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

Bleach is good for cleaning. Just make sure you rinse anything bleached very thoroughly afterwards!

Blue Rams do tend to be very sensitive- not so much because they're a sensitive species but because of the breeding practices of them. They're mass farmed in asia with major hormones to they all come out male, and extra colorful. Consequentially they are quite prone to, um, dying.

I've read a bunch of different temperature ranges on these guys, anywhere from 72-85. The book I have, which I trust immensely, leans towards the cooler end of the spectrum. They are from a large range, and so occur in a pretty wide range of temperatures, which is probably why there's so many different reports. They should do absolutely fine in 78 degrees.

I have 1 Bolivian Ram (Mikrogeophagus altispinosus) whom I absolutely love. They're quite a bit hardier than the Blue Rams and known to be a little less shy. They may be a little less colorful, but mine has become gorgeous as he has matured. I keep him at 78-80 degrees and he's very, very healthy and active.

Also, a note on Rams, they are definitely a more docile cichlid than many, but they are still cichlids. If you keep a pair, and they decide to spawn, be prepared for carnage. Even if you keep a single one, they are territorial, and him and the RTBS may not share space well.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

Well I'll just have to consider my options. I've still got a while to find something that swims at the top of the tank, won't get nipped to death by serpaes and can cohabitate with a RTBS.

In other news cleaning is proceeding, my biowheel filter and one of the power filters are cleaned up and ready to go. I'm only fixing up one power filter because three filters is two more than I need, and one more than if I'm paranoid. The other powerfilter is also pretty awful looking.










I pulled off the rest of the uptake tube for the photo.


----------



## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

More is definitely better  You can't overfilter a tank (unless there's too much current for the fish to swim, lol). But I agree that if one looks nasty, and is probably noisy, there's no need to use that one. Two should be plenty.

Also, just for reference, Rams are bottom dwellers. I wasn't sure if you realized that.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

Well, they're still interesting. Bottom dwelling would put the ram right in the RTBS' face and I'd have to hope they could get along. Well maybe next tank.

I cleaned more tonight and just for kicks tested my tap water. If I'm reading this right I have no ammonia or nitrites in my tap water but its hard as a rock.


----------



## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

Looks like you're using the API Liquid Master test kit... the next thing I would do is test your water with the high-range pH testing solution. With the fish you mentioned (with the possible exception of the ram) any pH up to about 8.0 should be within range for adaptation. As long as they're acclimated properly, you should have no problems. Look at it this way: with a pH above 7.0, at least you should have no problem keeping snails from getting shell erosion.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

I realized I should have done the high range PH right about the time the last of the water was circling the drain.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

So I did it this morning.










Using the API kit I tested for nitrates and high PH. Nitrates read zero so that's good. The pH reads about 7.9 to 8.0. Yikes.

I've had someone recommend using distilled water to help bring down the pH some. About 3 or 4 gallons of distilled water per 10 gallon water change. I've heard a lot of people say that anything between 6.0 and 8.0 is fine, but I'm bumping up against the upper limit of that range.

Oh, and my tank is now clean and inside. Time to wash sand.


----------



## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

There are ways to lower your pH, as well. Using aquarium peat in your substrate or filter will help. Driftwood will also slowly lower the pH of your water. I would definitely shy away from chemical products like pH Down as these can cause all kinds of problems. Some people say that API's Proper pH is a worthwhile product but it still seems to fall into that "unneeded chemical" category for me.

Using distilled water can bring your pH closer to 7, but distilled water is also devoid of any minerals and other nutrients that can benefit your fish. Also, if you used distilled water, you'd have to use a mix of distilled and tap water every time you did a water change, which could end up costing a lot. The peat and driftwood will be less expensive in the long run.

Then again, unless you plan on keeping really sensitive fish that prefer a lower pH, I think you'll be fine with your relatively high pH.

Look at the bright side: if you ever decide to keep African cichlids, you'll be all set!


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

Well I do have the extra HOB. I could use it for peat. Would peat discolor the water?

Probably won't do it, but its something to keep in mind.


----------



## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

It'll add a golden hue to the water, but it will still be crystal clear. You can also use peat moss in the filter in conjunction with activated carbon. This will lower the pH but keep the water from getting that golden color.


----------



## aquakid (Jun 22, 2008)

Be sure to add the hardier fish first to cycle and add 8 fish each month


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

I've started adding sand to my tank and so far the results are promising. Unfortunately it looks like I didn't get it as clean as I should have. The water is slightly cloudy. Hopefully some water changes and getting the filter running will clear it up.


----------



## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

I recently used sand (playground) in 29 gal. And despite washing sand till I was crosseyed, It still clouded the water . This went away after approx twenty four hours. I would let sand settle as much as possible before turning filter on to help prevent sand from finding its way into the motor, bearings, etc on your filter. I let mine set overnight before operating the filter. :wink:


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

Yep, it's playground sand. I've spent as long as 45 minutes rinsing a single bucket till the run off was crystal clear and I just couldn't get any more improvement. And it still fogged the water.

Now of course its nothing like it would be if I hadn't rinsed, but after spending more than four hours standing in the Florida summer sun rinsing almost 100 pounds of sand I was hoping for a bit better result.


----------



## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

I here ya! The things we do for our fish. Gotta admit it looks cool though (er) will look cool. I put four julii corys in this past saturday sadly, two died. there were two dead ones in the tank I got them from at lfs. Should have known better. But the remaining two along with glass bloodfin tetras appear to very much enjoy the sand. And if Iam careful during water changes sand is not disturbed too bad, (add water slowly) I also added about a dozen trumpet snails to help keep sand sifted so as to avoid gas pockets from building in the sand. this along with gently using a fork to help with above mentioned , and I am pleased with it overall.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

As I do water changes, turn on the filter, start to vacuum, etc. I know that things will improve. I was just hoping it'd look better from the outset.

I will tell you this. The next tank is going to be gravel and if I get the urge for more cories they're going in this tank.


----------



## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

wish i was standing in the florida sun.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

Well I finished my sand rinsing, filled it with water, installed my equipment and put my decorations in.

The only frustration is that the water is still cloudy.


----------



## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

i like that a lot,
well done on your hard work,the cloudy will settle in time honest.


----------



## Cody (Dec 22, 2007)

Looks nice. As willow said, it will become clear now that you have a filter going. And, I know what it feels like to have a cloudy tank. My reef had sand all over the place when I first set it up! And, with only 1 powerhead on, it cleared up within 24 hours.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

Here's hoping. I don't think you can avoid it no matter how much you rinse the sand, at least not with finer stuff like play sand. I'm pondering setting up the power filter just to see how it does, I've got filter cartridges for it but they contain carbon and are over two years old. Will the carbon have deactivated by now?

I'm planning on adding three or four more tall plants, most on the right end. I think it'll give the fish good cover as well as frame out the center of the tank.

I'm going to fiddle with my heaters and see if I can't get the temperature to hold at 79 degrees. Right now its hovering at 78.4 to 78.6 so just a tiny bump up should hit 79 and stay on the money.


----------



## rye (May 19, 2008)

I am like you starting up a tank that I want to keep soft water/low Ph species (some of the same as yours) in, though it isnt my first tank. Also, like you, my tap water comes out at around 8 Ph. I found this article on cheap ways to condition the water useful: 

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/filtration/softening.shtml

It explains that the biggest reason for high Ph is dissolved bicarbonates, in my case, and maybe yours too, the water comes from an area of heavy limestone. The bicarbonates buffer acid in the water and raise the Ph. It says the easiest way to get soft, acidic water is collecting rainwater, which might be too soft/acidic, maybe find a ratio of rainwater to tapwater that hits your target, and that you can somewhat reduce those bicarbonates by boiling the water. A very good article, this afternoon I will boil some of my water and let it settle then get it out the way the author describes in order to test it, I'll post the results as far as both Kh and Ph.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

Florida's aquifer is trapped in limestone so all the water in this state is hard unless you have your own shallow well. I'm not going to worry about monkeying with the pH, I doubt the fish stores around here are softening the water they keep their fish in so any fish I buy are most likely used to it.

I do have a question about temperature control, what's a good range to keep the temp in? Right now my temperature seems to vary from 78.0 to 78.9, should I be trying to keep it even steadier or is this fine? How big a temp swing in a day is acceptable before it starts to get dangerous for a fish, two degrees, three?


----------



## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

That's a very good temperature. I would worry about more than a 1 degree swing in less than an hour (in general). Sounds like you've got it all set.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

My temperature is becoming an issue. In the mornings I'm seeing temperatures about 79.5, which I didn't think was that big a problem because until yesterday the hottest it got in the tank was about 80.8, a bit over a degree at the most extreme swing. Yesterday when I got home from work the tank was 81.9, almost two and a half degrees from the hottest to the coldest.

I have a Coralife digital thermometer and I've heard some people complain about their accuracy and wandering readings even when things are stable. I tested it last night in ice water and it read 32.3 so it would seem the thing might be decently calibrated. I haven't messed with the heaters for almost a week so I'm at a loss to explain why my temperature would suddenly be rising. I guess this rambling question is about temperature ranges, how closely should I be trying to maintain the temperature. Is a two degree swing from early morning to mid afternoon acceptable? Should be trying to maintain a tighter range?

As a review I have a 55 gallon tank with a penguin 300 filter. My heaters are a 50W Visi-therm Deluxe and a 100W Visi-therm Stealth. I realize this is at the bare bottom of the 3-5W/gallon rule of thumb but my room temperature is about 75 and ideally I'd like to keep the tank at 79. I'll be replacing the 50W with a 150W or even 200W stealth later this year before winter. Here is how my tank is set up:










As another question, feeding my fish. My platy and sole surviving neon tetra decimate the food when I put some in. I'm concerned that my bottom dwelling cories might not be getting enough to eat. Should I buy some sinking pellets for them?


----------



## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

Two and a half degrees over an entire day should be just fine. Think about it this way: even when you go swimming you can feel there are hot spots and cold spots. Also, fish swim from shallows into more depth and the water temperature changes. They are definitely built to handle some variation in water temperature. Now this isn't a solid rule, as some fish come from very stable temperatures, but your fish should be fine, and hopefully the perspective will make you less worried. Plus, you're staying within the range of healthy temperature for your fish.


----------



## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

I agree with Okie on the temp.

Also, regarding the cories, definitely get them some sinking pellets or wafers.


----------



## Ashkat (Mar 11, 2008)

My emerald greens really really love sinking shrimp pellets. There is a barbel frenzy whenever I put them in the tank. It's guaranteed to put a smile on your face. 

~Ashkat


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

Mickey, my wife's pig of a platy found the sinking pellet I put in and just about drove the catfish nuts as he dove in for some of it too.

And note, those pellets don't divide well. I tried to cut it down since I only have two tiny catfish and wound up crushing it to dust. I dropped in the biggest intact piece and tossed the rest away.


----------



## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

My cories are pigs. There isn't much that they won't eat. They'll suck up any flake that hits the bottom, but they also like sinking tropical crumbles, shrimp pellets, algae wafers (I usually break these into smaller pieces. The cories can't really chew on the whole ones until they've really softened up and usually after that long my snails are hogging them), frozen tubifex, bloodworms and brine shrimp and especially live blackworms. In fact, I've never met a fish that didn't go nuts over live blackworms. 

The crumbles, shrimp pellets and wafers all sink. The frozen stuff sinks too, so I just make sure to put some in slowly at first to feed the top and middle dwellers, then dump a bunch in at once to make sure a decent amount sinks all the way to the bottom. The same goes for the blackworms, but be careful about dumping too many in at once or they'll burrow into your substrate before your fish can eat them all.


----------



## Ashkat (Mar 11, 2008)

Try wetting them first, Aaron. Just a bit so they soften up, they should divide easily then. I go for the divide and distract strategy, mine are in a tank with ten very active rosy barbs, so I get the rosy's attention with flake food and then drop a few shrimp pellets in for them on one end of the tank, and drop a few in the other end of the tank for the cats. The rosies like to get a whole pellet in their mouths and then race around the tank playing keep away. It's quite entertaining. (I swear, I only keep fish because my dogs and cats give me dirty looks when I laugh at them this much)

oh, and speaking of cats, my felines are pretty fond of the pellets too. Little stinkers stole them and ate the whole bag! Back to the fish shop for me 

~Ashkat


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

Last night I bought a mercury thermometer and put it in. Since it went in the tank it's remained steady as a rock at just a hair over 80, call it 80.2. Meanwhile my Coralife has drifted from 79 to 79.8 in that time. I'm going to keep a watch on the two over the next few days, it looks like my temp might not swing nearly as much as I thought it did.


----------



## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

> oh, and speaking of cats, my felines are pretty fond of the pellets too. Little stinkers stole them and ate the whole bag!


Oh, so my kitty isn't the only one that goes nutso for fish food! LOL. He comes running every time I open the fish cabinet. He has also stolen a bag of Hikari pellets and I found him with them strewn all over my floor!


----------



## Ashkat (Mar 11, 2008)

Well, the cats steal them and rip open the bags, and then the dogs vacuum up any that hit the floor. We have a very efficient system here. No food left behind!

~Ash


----------



## dommer (Jul 2, 2008)

1077 said:


> I here ya! The things we do for our fish. Gotta admit it looks cool though (er) will look cool. I put four julii corys in this past saturday sadly, two died. there were two dead ones in the tank I got them from at lfs. Should have known better. But the remaining two along with glass bloodfin tetras appear to very much enjoy the sand. And if Iam careful during water changes sand is not disturbed too bad, (add water slowly) I also added about a dozen trumpet snails to help keep sand sifted so as to avoid gas pockets from building in the sand. this along with gently using a fork to help with above mentioned , and I am pleased with it overall.


one thing i always did in my tank before to keep my gravel from getting to disturbed when adding water was either put a clean bowl/plate on top of the gravel and pour the water so it hit that and disbursed or i woul let the water hit my hand rite before the surface of the water so that it would just trickle in 

only problem with the second method that 5 gallon jug i used for water changes would get real heavy real fast lifting and pouring it into a 70 gallon tall tank


----------



## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

You could try feeding the flakes on one side, and then when the platy is busy, feeding the pellets on the other. You could also feed the cories when the lights are out. They find food mostly by smell, so they won't have a problem eating, but the platy won't have an easy time finding it.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

The problem has tragically resolved itself.


----------



## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

Uh-oh. How so?


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

A significant pH swing proved to be too much for my platy and the cories. I'm down to a single indestructible neon tetra.


----------



## markiee55 (Jul 2, 2008)

1077 said:


> In regards to sand I would simply add that it might be wise to shut off filter while doing maint. the first few times. That way if you stir up the sand with vaccum more than you intended, The sand won"t wind up in your filter gears, motor, bearings etc. I recently went with sand in 29 gal. And found it better to hover a little higher with gravel vac than you would with pebbles. :wink:


dont shoot me for saying this cos it WILL work.

if u want something else a reccamend angels.

yes ppl say they eat tetra's but if you by 'em small and let them grow with the tetras its less likely.

trust me i had 3 tanks wit a setup like tht.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

Right now my tank contains plastic and silk plants. I like the silk better. They're not as uniform in color and just look more realistic, but they aren't cheap. Has anyone used silk plants from a craft store in an aquarium? An 8" good quality silk plant can run me $5 to 8 bucks and the big ones, that I really need, are even more. Craft store silk plants are cheaper but I'm not sure if they're aquarium safe. 

Opinions, experiences?


----------



## Ashkat (Mar 11, 2008)

Stick them in a bucket of dechlorinated water, test the water in a week?


----------



## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

Testing the water probably wouldn't work, as most people don't have test kits that test for chemicals and pollutants, not to mention it would be very difficult to test for *everything*.

I think the main problem with silk plants is that they often contain metal wire- which can rust and pollute the tank. The dye may also not be aquarium safe and leach into the water. However, you may be able to find some at your craft store that are labeled "aquarium safe".

There are some really good deals on ebay and such- it's probably worth looking around there. Also, oftentimes random decorations like that will make it into clearance bins at your LFS (or more likely Petco) which make them dirt cheap.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

I've been keeping an eye out for bargins but everything that comes up seems to be things like 6" hairgrass. Craft stores are a bust so far, no one has anything labeled aquarium safe and the plants that lack metal wires aren't what I'm looking for, much less concerns about the dye in the leaves. 

I would really love to have some fake cambomba but can't find it higher than about 8".

A new question. My pH out of the tap is wicked, a solid 8.0. As best I can tell its why I lost my first group of neons. Within 48 hours all but one died in spite of being acclimated slowly for almost two hours. Currently I'm monkeying with the water chemistry using acid buffering salts. I know what a lot of people are thinking, don't do it, bad idea, etc. Thanks but I'm doing it anyways. I've been careful with them and took the time to figure out how much salt to use per bucket of water during my water changes to keep things at a stable 7.5 pH. I've kept an eye on the pH through testing buckets of water going in and in testing the pH on a regular basis and things are staying at a steady 7.5

I don't like using the buffering salts though.

I do like driftwood however. Since almost all my fish that I'm planning on getting are amazon river basin or similar conditions I think it might be interesting to have a blackwater set up. So I'm looking for any information people might have about using driftwood to lower pH through leeching or by usign peat in their filter. How low can they drive the pH? Will carbon remove the water discoloration? How fast will the pH drop after I introduce the driftwood or peat? How long will driftwood leech tanins and lower the pH before the pH will start to rise again? Would the 8.0 water I'd be adding with a water change cause a dangerous pH spike before the driftwood could return the pH to whatever lower value it might take my tank too? How low could the pH go with driftwood added? Any kind of driftwood I should look for in particular?


----------



## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

You have a 55gal.tank right? Were it me I would get a 15 gal rubbermaid tub and expierment with the peat in it. place some in some nylon and check the PH at different intervals to see what effect the amount of peat you are using has. You could then use that water for water changes .Temp . will need to be same as water in the tank. Many people do this with mixture of ro or distilled water mixed with tap water to achieve ph levels desired for some of the more delicate species or to prepare a tank for spawning of same. Was ph from your tap still at eight after sitting out for 24 hours? As I understand it the water from tap is under pressure and gasses are also present. By letting the water set for 24 hours a more accurate reading is possible. As for driftwood , it can lower the ph I believe to a degree and it happens slowly. Not sure how much. Haven't seen enough change to comment on in my tanks. Carbon will remove the tannins or tea stain. Hope some of this proves helpful.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

Yeah, I've tested it out of the tap, after 24 hours, and in the tank. It all comes out 8.0 if I do nothing to it but dechlorinate.


----------



## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

What test kit are you using? I recently replaced my RED SEA test kit with API test kit and one day just for kicks I tested the water in one tank with both tests. ammonia, nitrites, were same but API test showed PH at 7.6 where as REDSEA test indicated ph of 7.4. Then tested two other tanks in the house with same results. Was not too concerned for the fish are doing well and parameters are stable. Just something to consider.


----------



## girlofgod (Aug 22, 2006)

wow...your ph sounds high like mine! i dont use my tap water because I have angels and they don't like high ph...so I use bottled water. distilled/spring. i do a 25% change about once a month. it keeps the ph neutral. i love it. i dont have to use any OTC ph products. i DO NOT recommend using those ph products, because I have found that more often than not, once you have used them once to balance out things, you have to continue using them to maintain the balance. ph too high? thrown in some drops, ph too low? more drops...

so anyways...as far as the silk plants go, thats what I have in my tank. i got them from petsmart I believe, and they were a lil more expensive than normal plants. you can see what plants I have in my tank setup (which can be seen here: http://www.fishforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=1623&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) 

i would stay away from anything that does not say "aquarium safe" and it could leech chemicals, dyes, metals, etc into your tank that would harm your fish. 

sorry for the novel, hope this helps! 

~Bri


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

I use the API kit.

I don't care for using the salts. I'm really looking for some way to get away from them. I just happen to like driftwood, am learning to like blackwater set ups, and like mostly amazonian basin fish so if I could use driftwood it's kind of a perfect storm for lowering the pH of the water. I know people have said that any pH between 6 ad 8 can work but as someone out there on one of the extremes I have my doubts.

I prefer silk plants, their color isn't as uniform and they look more real. Since I don't have to buy plants all the time I don't mind spending another buck or two on a silk one instead of a plastic plant.


----------



## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

Carbon will remove the tannins from your water- peat moss is probably the way to go as it is easy to replace as it looses effectiveness.

I'd recommend getting a good gh/kh test kit as well. Monkeying with ph will inevitably effect hardness, and that's something you should keep tabs on. Acid buffering salts often drop your kh significantly, or else put your gh all the way down to zero.

My pH is 8.6 when it comes out of the tap, so I'm forced to use chemicals from time to time. I'd recommend Seachem's Acid Regulator, it's the brand I trust the most.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

I can't recall the exact product but I'm pretty sure its SeaChem stuff.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

All my fish are doing well, all 3 platys and 8 neons. I'm feeding them regularly with tetramin flake food. My wife feeds them a pinch in the morning at light's on and I give them another pinch at night. I only feed them enough so that nothings hitting the bottom of the tank and typically the food is gone in 15 to 20 seconds from when I release it in the water. I've been wondering if this is enough food. I realize they are small and that over feeding is worse than underfeeding but everything I've heard says feed them as much as they can eat in 30 seconds to 3 minutes. Given that the minutes usually are on the side of the food can I take it with a grain of salt. Still, 30 seconds is what I hear from both the LFS and here and my fish food doesn't even last that long. Should I add another feeding?

I also treat my fish with frozen brine shrimp on Saturday nights after weekly tank maintenance and with the... well I think it's emerald dream, the black stuff from the same pack, on wednsday nights.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+7927+8038+8130&pcatid=8130

Also, I'm planning on starting to give them some blanched lettuce from time to time. Should I feed them this as a substitute for flake food one night or in addition to it? Would they eat spinach as well?


----------



## Kim (Apr 30, 2008)

My pH is 7.6 and I had the same concerns about the driftwood. I got mine from lake Massebesic (because it is pollutant free) and boiled it for 30 minutes. It has not changed my pH enough to be recognized by my test kit. On one hand, it is good that my pH will stay stable, but if you are looking for it to lower your pH, it may not work very well. Just my experience. Good luck.


----------



## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

pleased your fish are doing well. I will share some observations that I recently shared with another poster on another forum . I observed that fish that are fed more than once per day quickly become aware that only their favorite pieces of flake food or other food for that matter need to be eaten with any sense of urgency.I have watched them select only certain colors of the flake food bits which I assume represents different flavors.Much of the rest is either eaten by other occupants or falls to the bottom where it may or may not be eaten after food at the surface is gone.They know that in a few hours they will once again be fed and the process is repeated.Even corycats and other bottom feeders exhibited similar habits. However, by cutting feed to once per day the fish also became aware of that. Then when food was offered they were not as selective and quickly ate all that was offered. After food on the surface was gone they then went foraging along the bottom and pretty much ate everything.With the exception of my discus I feed once per day and only what they can eat in one minute. Try counting backwards from 60. That is quite a bit of food. Most people feed for much longer. I am certain your fish are getting their share. I also offer my fish frozen brine shrimp once a week, again, only what they can consume in one minute. As for vegetable matter for your PARTICULAR fish I would humbly suggest a flake food with spirulina. It should serve the same purpose. Hope some of this helps.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

It sounds odd but I was actually hoping to get them to eat the vegetables as much for me as them. I'd get a kick out of being able to fix them something like that and letting them graze on it for a while. The flake food I feed them disappears in a hell of a hurry. Its fun to watch them eat then but its a short lived show.

Right now I'm feeding them: 
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+7927+8049+4253&pcatid=4253

I may start them on these once in a while in addition to the flakes:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+7927+8049+12814&pcatid=12814

Or maybe just alternate my standard flakes with:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+7927+7932+4309&pcatid=4309

My wife is just about desensitized to my fish habit now so she's unlikely to blow a gasket at yet another container of food showing up.

Which brings me to my newest question. I've noticed an oily film on top of my water. I've heard that it's due to biological activity. While I'm not concerned about it for health or even appearance issues I'm always a gadget junky. Does anyone know of a way to set up a surface skimmer for the filter intake or maybe even go all the way with something like a nano-reef protein skimmer?
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4392+14676&pcatid=14676


----------



## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

Hmm, with adequate surface agitation, there shouldn't be anything building up on the surface of the tank.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

It's barely noticable at all, just barely a shimmer. I've got a Penguin 300 and an airstone churning up the surface pretty well.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

Quarantine Tank

Given the unexplained deaths of several of my fish I've started to take the idea of a quarantine tank much more seriously. With the extra though I've given it I've realized I can set one up for far cheaper than I thought I could. I wanted to see if anyone had any thoughts on my potential set up.

Tank: 60 qt clear rubbermaid container with snap on lid. I'm going to drill some holes in it to allow for airflow and some airline tubing. I'll probably cut a hole in it for feeding through. I won't fill the tub completely, probably only 10 to 12 gallons. It's not a huge quantity of water but the largest number of residents it'll likely ever have is the school of 8 serpae tetras I'll be buying in two months. I'm going to spray paint the outside back, bottom, and part of the sides black.

Filter: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3579+3584+3940&pcatid=3940 I've looked into making my own sponge filter but none of my LFS or big pet chains has the materials I need. Spare lift tubes, sponges, etc. I'm going to keep looking but this basic sponge filter is available at my LFS and I'm probably gonna buy it.

Heater: The extra 50W Visitherm Deluxe (old style) I have in my main tank without it the main tank drops from 79 to 77-78 degrees. That temp is fine for my residents and better for my corys than the slightly higher temp I have with it in. I knew I was going to have to replace this heater during the winter with something larger anyways to make sure my tank stayed warm. I'll buy a thermometer.

Light: Spare 24" light that came with my tank. The bulb is old and so is the fixture but all I'm doing with this thing is keeping the tank from being dark, not trying to grow anything.

Substrate: Quartz gravel that came with my tank that I didn't use. The edges are sharper than I'd like but I'm going to try and tumble it some to remove the worst offenders. The only thing this worries me about is using this tank for corys at some point. Since more corys are way down the road I'll probably just replace this gravel with some conventional, and darker, pea gravel later.

Decorations: Cheap clay pots from the hardware store, plastic and silk plants I got in bulk from someone but don't like enough to go in the main tank.

As of right now the only thing I'll have to buy is the sponge filter, some airline tubing, a check valve, and a thermometer. Total cost of my QT/hospital tank is going to be less than $20.


----------



## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

wouldn't think a lid would be needed unless pets or children are a consideration. Fish are often more comfortable with dim lighting and if the lid is on for most of the time then the sudden illumination of the tank could cause some stress possibly to the point that they injure themselves. If you were to purchase a dark colored tub then maybe you would not need to paint it. Be careful that light is not melting the lip of the tub or that it can inadvertantly be knocked into the tub. Otherwise, sounds like a plan.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

Pets and children are both considerations, as are possibly jumping fish. This will be put on the shelf below my tank and will be the perfect height for hungry cats and curious little boys to get too. The lid is as clear as the rest of the tub. I don't want a dark colored tub to begin with because I want to be able to see the fish so I can evaluate their health without having to disturb them. It's also the tub I have and can use right now without having to spend any money on a new one. I'm planning on using some scrap wood to elevate the light off the top of the tub by about 4".


----------



## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Sounds like you have your bases covered. I have always found a water gun to be a decent detriment with cats . Not sure if there is one for curious boys.


----------



## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

A couple of thoughts:

Since you're using this as a QT/hospital tank, you're probably going to be using some meds in it at some point. Some medications (i.e. methylene blue) can discolor the sealant on a regular glass tank, and I've heard of them discoloring acrylic tanks. So, you might eventually end up with a blue QT tank.

If possible, you should keep the sponge filter in your display tank. This way it's always seeded with bacteria, so you can move it to the QT tank at any time and have a pre-cycled tank ready to go. Otherwise, you'll either have to keep some permanent residents on the QT tank (snails and shrimp maybe?) to keep it cycled or deal with climbing ammonia and nitrite levels in the tank whenever you've got fish in there.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

I'm not overly concerned about it turning blue, if it happens it happens. This isn't going to be a tank I show off. Nice to know it might happen ahead of time though.

I was planning on keeping the filter in my main tank so I wouldn't have to cycle over again. Maybe an odd question but what if I just tossed the sponge into the main tank, keep it hidden behind some decorations or something. When it's needed pull it out, hook up the total filter and drop it in the tank. It wouldn't be as fully... well charged, with bacteria as if I'd kept it running but I'm not fully convinced I'll be in love with this thing in my display tank.

On the other hand my guppies are doing what they do best, making more guppies. It wouldn't be too hard to just leave the QT/Hospital tank set up and keep a few guppies in it when it's not doing its job just to keep things established.


----------



## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

Well if you've got extra guppies just laying around not doing much, they could certainly keep the QT tank cycled.


----------

