# Re-Starting a 72 Bowface



## shaggylawson

I decided to start my old fish tank back up and have a few questions or may be more than a few

The tank sat for more than a year with water sand and about 30lbs of LR left in it (no running filtering or heater). I thought leaving water in the tank would keep the LR so that is my first question; Is my LR still LR or is it just rock now?

I cleaned all the filters, protein skimmer, and walls of the tank after removing the old water from the tank. I had to purchase a new power head (Maxi-Jet 400) for movement of water, Maxi-Jet 1200 to attach to my Sea Clone protein skimmer and new filters for the Emperor 400 that I use for filtration. The LR and fossil coral were covered in a thick, green, slim (like jello) substance that I removed before placing them back in the new water. I did nothing with the sand thinking that it had organisms that I would need to help build bacteria. I ran it for about 2 weeks before adding two clone fish and a canary fangblenny that the LFS recommended.

Here is where the problem starts (I know your shocked:shock. I assumed that the LR was good and the tank would cycle faster as it was not really new. So I had my water tested after 2.5 weeks and the LFS said I was good and could add anything. So I did:-(. I added a Sailfin Tang and Foxface Rabbitfish bringing the total to 5 fish, 8 hermit crabs and 5 snails. As you professionals have now guessed the tank had not cycled yet. I figured out something was wrong when my fangblenny died and my Rabbitfish looked stressed all the time so I had my water tested again and my Nitrite went up, Nitrate went up, and I had some Ammonia. I have since been trying to keep the fish alive for over a week now which has been successful so far without a QT (because I do not have one that is ready for fish). I have added 10 more pounds of LR from the LFS which brings me to about 40lbs of LR unless the old 30lbs is no longer LR (going back to my first question).

I have been adding Micro Bacter7 to the water each day to help promote bacteria growth per the LFS and that is pretty much all I have been able to do (add 10lbs or LR and MicroBacter7). As I said so far so good. Here are the recent parameters as of today: Nitrite 1, Nitrate 20, PH 8.0, Alkalinity 160, Temp 78.

The Sailfin Tang and Clowns seem to be just fine and do not show any signs of stress. The Rabbitfish seems fine and nice and yellow when no one is around the tank, but when you get near the tank he normally hides and loses his color. Every no and then I will see him lose his color when no one is around but normally he is swimming fine. So I'm not sure if the Nitrite is really bothering him as much as a originally thought. I thought I would lose the Rabbitfish and Sailfin pretty quickly.

Questions
Is my LR still LR?
Is this just a waiting game now or should I do more quick fixes to help the Nitrite?
Based on no Ammonia and the Nitrite coming down to a 1 is the tank close to being cycled?
Where can I get more LR or Base rock for a good price?
How much more LR or BR should I add (I have about 40lbs in a 72 bowface)?
Do the 5 snails and 8 hermit crabs do more harm than good at this point?

I have pictures posted in my Aquarium area, please let me know if you cannot get to them.


----------



## Pasfur

shaggylawson said:


> Questions
> Is my LR still LR?
> Is this just a waiting game now or should I do more quick fixes to help the Nitrite?
> Based on no Ammonia and the Nitrite coming down to a 1 is the tank close to being cycled?
> Where can I get more LR or Base rock for a good price?
> How much more LR or BR should I add (I have about 40lbs in a 72 bowface)?
> Do the 5 snails and 8 hermit crabs do more harm than good at this point?


Hey Brad, glad to see you finally got things worked out and posted here. (Brad is my cousin, so I would appreciate any help everyone can give.) I would make a trip to check out the tank, but my knee has taken a turn for the worse and I will be having surgery soon. 

The pictures of your tank look very nice. You actually have a pretty good setup, being a FOWLR (fish only with live rock) tank. Given that it has been a few days since you and I talked, and the fish are still doing well, I think you are in the clear. Don't worry about the color fading on the FoxFace. This is typical of the species and will take place for as long as you own the fish.

Your readings look nice. I am very glad to see that you are testing for alkalinity. In addition, I would like to see you begin testing for calcium. In fact, over the long haul, testing for alkalinity, calcium, and pH will be the routine tests you do weekly. Here is a more detailed thread I posted on the subject:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...calcium-testing-important-every-marine-33079/ If you need to buy supplements, I personally use Kent Marine Super Buffer DKH and Kent Marine liquid Calcium Chloride. You can buy both at Aquarium Supplies, Pet Supplies and Pond Supplies by That Fish Place - That Pet Place for a nice discount.

On the subject of live rock, I am certain that the 30 pounds of live rock left in your tank had a lot of die off, but some of the life would have survived and will benefit the tank. Having added 10 pounds of new live rock will "seed" the prior rock, and it will all be "live" within a few short weeks. You should add an additional 25 pounds or so of rock. I would personally order dry rock from 25 Pound box Key Largo Dry Rock, <br>Pre Cycled - DS-25. I used about 200 pounds of this rock in my 180 gallon tank and am very pleased with it. It will seed and become live in a few short months. Here are pictures of this rock on my 180 thread: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/saltwater-fish-pictures-videos/pasfurs-180-reef-build-21979/

The last subject is filtration. Your skimmer is somewhat undersized for your tank. It is not a huge issue, but if you happen to have an extra $200 laying around, I would suggest you upgrade. This would be my suggestion:
AquaC Remora Pro Hang-On Protein Skimmer
You will want this to make it more effecient:
AquaC Remora Pro Pre-skimmer
Again, this is not entirely necessary, but I would personally feel more comfortable long term, and the price is worth it. You will actually save money over the long haul, because the better skimmer will reduce the need for water changes and supplement use.

As it stands, my only concern about your tank is the Emperor. The biowheels on the Emperor are continuously pumping Nitrate into the tank. This is directly at odds with the Protein Skimmer, which is designed to REMOVE organic waste from the water BEFORE the waste breaks down into Nitrate. Normally you would not use this Emperor, but would allow the live rock and sand to be your only filter to compliment the protein skimmer. For now, I think you need to add more live rock and allow the existing rock to mature before you take steps to remove the Emperor entirely.

My suggestion is this. Order the dry rock and get it in the tank. After 4 weeks remove one of the biowheels. After 4 more weeks remove the Emperor completely.

You will get all the help you need here. If you have any urgent issues feel free to give me a call, otherwise I am on here several times every day, and there are many others here with a lot of experience.

Mark


----------



## shaggylawson

Mark

Thanks for the reply. I will look into the skimmer but for now I will order the 25 pounds of Key Largo rock tonight. I have never ordered rock so I assume since it is dry rock once it is delivered it will be ok out in the cold until I get home from work. 

Question about the Key Largo rock, can I just add that to the tank when I get it or does it require some type of preparation?

Also the LFS tested for the Alkalinity and told me that I do not need to test for Calcium because if the Alkalinity is correct then the calcium should be as well. Is that true? My Alkalinity is 160 and I purchased Kent Marine Superbuffer-dkH should I add some to bring it closer to 180?


----------



## terryap

from what I have read all you have to do is add to your tank, there is no die off, so it will not affect your ammonia levels, I don't think the cold will affect it at all, mind you, I would wait until it isn't cold anymore before you add, but I am sure you know that 
great looking tank by the way! Can't wait to see more pics!


----------



## shaggylawson

Thanks Terry

Also what about the time the light should be left on. At this time I have it set to come on at 8am and turn off at 5pm. Should it be longer?


----------



## terryap

I am not a lighting expert, I leave mine on for about 12 -14 hours a day combined, actinics being on longer....this is an area Wake49 can help on


----------



## wake49

What kind of lights are you using? Are they Power Compacts? Flouresents: T12s, T8s or T5s? Metal Halides? Are they actinic with daylight bulbs?

I turn my actinics on from 12:30 to 11:30 pm. My daylights go on from 3:30 to 9:30 pm. This is so I can enjoy the tank while I am home. I personally run a 12 bulb T5HO on my 150 reef.


----------



## shaggylawson

Wake49

I do not have a reef tank just a FOWLR. I'm not sure what the bulb is I will have to check tonight, but it is the light that came with it if that helps at all, I'm sure it is nothing special. It's just a single bulb that runs the length of the top of the tank.


----------



## Pasfur

I leave my lights on for 16 hours each day so that I can enjoy the tank. I have one light strip that comes on at 6:30am for the morning feeding at turns off at 11pm. Another light comes on at 4pm and off at 10pm, to increase the light when I am at home. You may want to buy another strip light. I bought mine at a yard sale for $8. (This is a fish only tank, so the exact lighting is not important. A reef tank would require a cycle that resembles nature.)

On the Key Largo rock, in theory it is able to go directly into the tank. However, to play it safe I would probably add a few pieces of rock into a bucket of saltwater with a power head for circulation. Allow it to run overnight and then test for ammonia and nitrite. If they read zero, then add it to the tank. When you first add it the rock will appear very white, but it will color up in time and become coated with coraline algae.

As for calcium, the LFS is wrong. I hope it wasn't Sandy's that gave you this information. If it was I will talk to Bruce the next time I am there. They are giving incorrect information (and missing sales opportunities). 

Calcium carbonate is one of the primary buffers that make up alkalinity. However, there are many other buffers as well. These all need to be in balance. Calcium is utilized by all aquariums, even FOWLR systems, and thus is depleted before it is available to form calcium carbonate. If you don't test for calcium, these buffers become out of balance. In reality, these buffering ions being in balance is part of what makes "saltwater". Without this, you just have water with dissolved salts. I'm sure the Instant Ocean people would not enjoy this insult. 

Calcium should be 400ppm to 460ppm and Alkalinity at 8 to 12 DKH. I noticed you posted Calcium at 160ppm. This converts to 9 DKH. You may want to post in DKH so that everyone is using the same system of measurement.


----------



## shaggylawson

Mark

It was Sandy's that gave me that information, I can provide you the two names if you think it is appropriate to post here.

I only had the light on for about 8 hours because I thought it would cause too much algae growth but it is off most of the time we are home which does not make much sense for me and the kids. So can I have it on from 8am to 11pm without causing any issues?

The 160 is for the Alkalinity not Calcium, I have not tested for Calcium as the LFS said I did not need to since the Alkalinity was good. I'm not sure what my Calcium reading is. I will have to get a test for that.

I ordered the rock last night and hope to have it soon.


----------



## Pasfur

Pasfur said:


> I noticed you posted Calcium at 160ppm. This converts to 9 DKH. You may want to post in DKH so that everyone is using the same system of measurement.



Sorry Brad, this was a typo. I meant to say Alkalinity. 160ppm of Alkalinity = 9 DKH.

Don't worry about the exact employee. I've noticed in my visits there that the marine staff does not go into enough detail on Alkalinity. Bruce will want to know that they are missing out on sales.


----------



## shaggylawson

ok thanks

What about my light, can it stay on 8am to 11pm or is that too long and will cause too much algae growth?


----------



## wake49

I think that if you keep your Calcium & Alkalinity at optimum levels, then 8 am to 11 pm should be fine. You will see a burst of coraline algae growth, which should use up the nutrients involved in nuisance algae growth.


----------



## shaggylawson

I purchased the Kent Marine Liquid Calcium and Calcium test today at the LFS, so I will check my reading later tonight when I get home from work.


----------



## Pasfur

Awesome. When you do the Calcium test, it will have you count drops. After you do a couple of tests, you will know approx how many drops it takes. You won't have to do them 1 at a time. You can generally add the first 10 or 20 drops and then start adding 1 at a time until the color changes.


----------



## shaggylawson

I'm not an expert yet, so does anyone have a picture of what coralline algae looks like or know of a good site that shows what good and bad algae looks like for saltwater?


----------



## terryap

go to google, then type in coraline algae, then click on images up top, you will have a ton of photos


----------



## Pasfur

Here is a good picture on my 180 thread:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...s-videos/pasfurs-180-reef-build-21979/page14/

The coraline is the purple/pink algae covering the rocks. It is slowly spreading onto the dry rock to the left side of the picture.


----------



## shaggylawson

Ok, I just tested everything and the good news is the Nitrite is down to 0.5, the Nitrate is about 20 or a little less (i'm using test strips and it is hard to tell exactly sometimes), the PH is still 8.0 and the KH Alkalinity is about 180+ or10/11 dkh (again hard to tell exactly because of the strip). The Calcium test is liquid not a strip and it was 480ppm. I do not have an Ammonia test so I'm not sure about that. 

It looks like things are going in the right direction. My only concern is the Rabbitfish. When I came home the light was off and he was colorless and kind of resting on his belly in the sand. I turned the light on and gave it a few minutes and he gained his bright yellow color back but when I looked again about 10 minutes later he was very pale again and almost resting on the sand (probably the worst I have seen him look). So I'm confused by him, one minute he looks fine and another minute he looks dead, but the water quality is improving. Confused!!

Am I doing everything correct? Is the tank going the right direction?

Also about the algae, is there a bad algae to have?


----------



## shaggylawson

Here is the Foxface taken about 3 minutes ago. This is how he has been most of the night without anyone walking in front of the tank to spook him.


----------



## Pasfur

That picture is exactly what every FoxFace looks like every morning. Perfectly normal. 

Everything seems to be moving fine. I would wait for Nitrite to register zero, and at that point take a sample of water to the LFS (local fish store) to have tested for Ammonia. Ammonia will be zero also, i'm sure. 

In your tank Nitrate will work a bit differently. It will continue to rise slowly due to the filtration system. Give it time, and a few months after your addition of more live rock and removal of the biowheels the nitrate should begin to drop. 

Your Calcium and Alkalinity look good. I would test both 2 times per week and keep a log of the results. Over time you will be able to predict how much you need to dose between tests to keep them from dropping. Realize, as you add more fish both will deplete faster. Also, as you begin to get coraline algae growth the calcium will deplete faster.

Your goal is nice growth of coraline algae. When coraline is present it is very difficult for other bad algaes to grow, such as hair algae, bubble algae, and even cynobacteria. All of these harm your system in different ways.


----------



## shaggylawson

If that is the way they are suppose to look in the morning that is fine, but this is how he looks nearly 90% of the time. That picture was taken well after the light was turned on.I came home tonight at 9pm and of course he is the same way and the light has been on since 8am. I guess I thought when I purchased this fish I was getting a fish that would be active based on what I was told. The Sailfin Tang was the one I thought would hide more and he has been great. Like people fish are not created equal and have a mind of their own . I guess I got the grumpy one;-)

I will keep a log starting with last nights readings

My rock was shipped so I hope to have it by the weekend to start the process of getting rid of my Emperor and finishing my cycle.


----------



## Pasfur

It is unusual for the FoxFace to have that appearance so often. It is certainly a sign of stress. You are correct that they are an open water swimmer and generally one of the fish that you should always see swimming around.

Really not much you can do other than keep a close eye on it to ensure it is not being dominated by another fish.


----------



## shaggylawson

I have noticed that the Sailfin Tang and FoxFace are always together (when he is swimming around) and that sometimes the Foxface appears to be scared of the Sailfin or submissive. Oh well, l don't want to beat a dead horse here I'm stuck with him and hopefully he comes around.

Based on the test strips I have it looks like the Nitrite is either 0 or really close. The Nitrate looks lower than 20 but the PH looked like it dropped between 7.5-8.0. The KH is still about 180+ or 10/11 dkh. I will take it to the LFS tomorrow and have them test it to be sure.

My rock is scheduled for delivery on Saturday. I believe you said to put it in a bucket of saltwater with a power head overnight to ensure no die off happens. I assume you mean cycled saltwater which I do not have just sitting around. I only have what is in my tank. Will freshly mixed saltwater due? You also said put “a few pieces” in the bucket, does that mean once a few test fine than they all will and can be added to the tank or did you mean put all the rock through that cycle a few pieces at a time? Sorry If I’m being too precise but I just want to make sure it is done correctly.


----------



## Pasfur

I would go ahead and mix a bucket of saltwater Friday and have it ready for the rock on Saturday. (Actually, you may as well put the 5 new gallons into the tank, and drain 5 gallons from the tank to put the rock in.)

Anyhow, I think all the rock will be fine. But I figure you may as well test a few pieces in the bucket just to be safe. Normally I wouldn't even worry about it, but having just finished your cycle you can't be to safe.


----------



## shaggylawson

Question about my clown fish and tank temp.
I have been worried about my Foxface but have just accepted that he will just get stressed more than I thought, but now the clown fish are acting weird. The use to swim around a lot and would not be scared to come to the front of the tank when I'm there. Now they have been hanging in the back sometimes virtually motionless resting their belly on the sand and even kind of leaning over almost on their side. I have also noticed the bigger one resting on the live rock kind of like a Hawk fish would. The water is getting better and the only thing that changed was the temp in the tank. So again I'm confused and would have expected things to get better with better water quality. The tank was at 76 but I moved it up to 78 to help fight decease due to stress from the water quality. Is 78 too high? Is this normal behavior for clown fish or is this an indication something is wrong?

I took my water to the LFS for testing. They said it showed a little Nitrite about 0.5 and about 20 Nitrate. They said the Alkalinity was about 160ppm or 9 dkh which is a little different than what it looks like on my strips so I bought a liquid KH test to use from now on. They said my calcium was fine but said again that did not really matter with a FOWLR tank, only with coral. He said my phosphate was a little high and my salinity was 1.026 which was not what I read earlier in the week. I had it between 1.023-1.024. 

Also the LFS keeps telling me to buy RO water and not to use tap water. Is there any real big difference?


----------



## Pasfur

For anyone keeping a reef, using RO water is nearly a requirement to avoid problems with algae. In a FOWLR, I see no problem at all using tap water with Amquel, or a similar water conditioner. Using RO water is certainly the more conservative approach, and not bad advice.

I see no problem at all with your readings, other than still waiting for nitrite to drop to zero.

As for the clownfish, the behavior is a change in behavior, which should raise red flags. But it is not really unusual behavior for a clownfish. Sometimes when kept in systems without an anemone Clownfish will adapt an area of the tank to hang out in, and often display behavior similar to hosting. My Clarkii Clownfish sits in the corner of my tank every night to sleep. It just sits on the substrate and fans the substrate, moving back and forth like it is hosting in an anemone.


----------



## shaggylawson

What about the temp change from 76 to 78? Is 78 better, worse or makes no difference? As you can see from my screen name picture the clown would be very active in the front of the tank. They have not been very active or near the front most of the week. I guess it’s the near motionless state and the leaning over as if it is taking it’s last breath is the part that concerns me not necessarily the part that they have selected the back of the tank for hosting. I guess all I can do is keep a close eye on them, but there is nothing I can really do.

I bought a Rubbermaid 18 gal tub for the rock to go in, but I had to take out about 6 gallons and add another 6 fresh gallons to get enough water in it to put the rock in. I did not want to take out 12 gallons from the tank as I thought it would be too much water change. What is normally a good water change in terms of gallons?

This also allowed me to reduce the salinity back down to 1.022-1.023 thinking maybe the clowns had an issue with the higher salinity. I also raised the KH back up to 10/11 dkh using the Kent Marine SB.

Question about the liquid test for KH. It says count the drops until the blue turns to bright yellow. At 10 drops it turned from blue to a sort of yellow and at 11 it turned yellow. So is it 10 or 11 since at 10 it was no longer blue but not yet bright yellow either?


----------



## shaggylawson

Here are a few pictures of what is going on pretty much all day. They are a little blurry but it was the best that I could get.


----------



## Pasfur

shaggylawson said:


> What about the temp change from 76 to 78? Is 78 better, worse or makes no difference?
> 
> Question about the liquid test for KH. It says count the drops until the blue turns to bright yellow. At 10 drops it turned from blue to a sort of yellow and at 11 it turned yellow. So is it 10 or 11 since at 10 it was no longer blue but not yet bright yellow either?


On temperature, it really makes no difference. I suppose 78 gives you a couple extra degrees to play with if the power goes out and your takes starts to cool down.

The reading occurred at 11 drops. There is always a point where it starts to turn, which is what you saw at 10 drops, and then completely turns on the next drop.

I'm not sure what to make of the Clownfish. I see that they have fanned the sand away and are laying right next to the bare area, which is typical behavior. However, it is not typical that they stay and hide in that spot on a continuous basis. All of this is probably a result of the lack of stability in your tank over the last couple of weeks.


----------



## shaggylawson

The rock arrived at about 11am so I placed all of it in the Rubbermaid tub and took my power head out of the fish tank and placed it in the tub for circulation. I do not have a test for ammonia so as long as the Nitrite test comes out 0 in the tub tomorrow morning does that mean there is no Ammonia and it is safe to add the new rock to the fish tank or do I need to go buy an ammonia test?

Also on the power head subject; I only have the one Maxi-Jet 400 that circulated the water (outside of my skimmer and Emperor). Is that enough or should I get a more powerful one?


----------



## Pasfur

I think the one Maxi Jet 400 is fine. I hate to say it, but yes, you really need to test for ammonia, and need to have the ammonia kit on hand anyhow.

Brad, if you want to send a sample home with Zachary on Monday, I will be happy to test it for you. Stephanie will be picking him up around 4:30 at your mom's.


----------



## shaggylawson

Thanks, but if it is something that I will need later anyway then I'll just pick one up tomorrow at the LFS. Thanks for the offer.

Also the clown has not made a place in the sand I think what you are seeing is the blue piece of fossil coral that is laying next to him/her. The way it is acting I will not be surprised if it does not last much longer, but I thought that about the FoxFace more than a week ago and he is still alive


----------



## shaggylawson

Well I lost the Clown fish (as posted in a different thread), so I’m moving on with the Foxface and Sailfin Tang. Once the tank is finished cycling I'll look to get a few more clown.

I picked up the Ammonia test at the LFS so hopefully I can add the new rock to the tank soon. It has been in the Rubbermaid tub for a little more than 24hrs now. This may be a silly question but again I'm kind of a literal guy. Since this is Key Largo _Base_ Rock does that mean it has to be the base and the other LR will need to sit on top of it or can I just put it where ever I choose?


----------



## wake49

Wherever you choose. The base rock is just another term for "dead rock", or "dry rock". The Live Rock you have in your tank will seed the base rock with life, like coraline algae, pods and worms.


----------



## Pasfur

You do need to watch out for "base" rock at the LFS. It is usually very dense rock and not very porous. Even though it is offered for a less expensive price, it is not worth purchasing. The dry rock you ordered is a much higher quality rock. You will be amazed at how it looks in a few months.


----------



## shaggylawson

Latest tank readings

Alkalinity= 12 dkh
PH= 8.0
Calcium= 460
Nitrate= 0 (strip test)
Nitrite= 0 (strip test)
Ammonia= 0
Salinity= 1.022-1.023
Temp= 78

I just added the rock to the tank, so I will retest the Ammonia in 24 hours, but I tested it before moving so it should be fine.


----------



## shaggylawson

Ok I have kept the light on from 8am to 11pm for about a week now. I'm noticing small amounts of coralline growing on the LR but also some rust colored algae forming on the fossil coral. Is that ok? Should I reduce the light time?


----------



## Pasfur

shaggylawson said:


> Ok I have kept the light on from 8am to 11pm for about a week now. I'm noticing small amounts of coralline growing on the LR but also some rust colored algae forming on the fossil coral. Is that ok? Should I reduce the light time?


You know Brad, I've never had dead coral decorations which did not become covered with that rusty brown colored algae. It just happens over time. It is a source of frustration, because cleaning them is a stressful event for the fish, but you want them to look nice. I finally gave up and just don't use any of them at all. I just try to encourage a lot of coraline growth. 

As you keep Calcium and Alkalinity where they need to be, you will really see the benefit with coraline spreading.


----------



## shaggylawson

Pasfur said:


> You know Brad, I've never had dead coral decorations which did not become covered with that rusty brown colored algae. It just happens over time. It is a source of frustration, because cleaning them is a stressful event for the fish, but you want them to look nice. I finally gave up and just don't use any of them at all. I just try to encourage a lot of coraline growth.
> 
> As you keep Calcium and Alkalinity where they need to be, you will really see the benefit with coraline spreading.


 
I will see how things go with the fossil coral and maybe remove them later in the process. My fish do not need anymore stress right now.

Is there any reason to keep the water that was in the rubbermaid tub that I took from the tank to help break in the new rock or should I get rid of it? It's about 10 gallons.


----------



## wake49

Pasfur said:


> You do need to watch out for "base" rock at the LFS. It is usually very dense rock and not very porous. Even though it is offered for a less expensive price, it is not worth purchasing.


My LFS actually keeps his base rock in a bin of RO/Di water. That way it is soaking wet when you buy it, and heavy as heck!


----------



## shaggylawson

Sorry in advance for the descriptions below I do not know a different or technical way to describe what I see.

I just noticed today that I have a lot of very tiny white, lice looking creatures moving around on the front of my tank. Are they normal?
Also I have lots of tiny spore like algae growing on all sides of the tank glass, heater and filter tube. It does not look like typical algae but more like single shreds of tiny wheat individually stuck to the glass. If some how you know what I'm talking about, is it normal?


----------



## Pasfur

shaggylawson said:


> Sorry in advance for the descriptions below I do not know a different or technical way to describe what I see.
> 
> I just noticed today that I have a lot of very tiny white, lice looking creatures moving around on the front of my tank. Are they normal?
> Also I have lots of tiny spore like algae growing on all sides of the tank glass, heater and filter tube. It does not look like typical algae but more like single shreds of tiny wheat individually stuck to the glass. If some how you know what I'm talking about, is it normal?


The white lice looking creatures are amphipods. Great news!!! If you see white tics, these are copepods. All good for the system.

The algae sounds like the beginning of some green hair algae. It is often a dull brown when it begins. Pretty typical for a newer system.

Sorry to take so long to respond. ;-)


----------



## shaggylawson

Pasfur said:


> The white lice looking creatures are amphipods. Great news!!! If you see white tics, these are copepods. All good for the system.
> 
> The algae sounds like the beginning of some green hair algae. It is often a dull brown when it begins. Pretty typical for a newer system.
> 
> Sorry to take so long to respond. ;-)


Great I'm glad it is nothing bad. Yes it took you 4 minutes to respond I'm disappointed!!


----------



## shaggylawson

Alright I'm testing regularly and all has been fine for several weeks. I put the Key Largo rock in about 4 weeks ago. Should I start phasing out my Emperor HOB filter by removing the Bio-Wheels? Also I'm thinking about buying more Key Largo rock for the tank. I assume you cannot have too much live rock right?


----------



## Pasfur

shaggylawson said:


> Alright I'm testing regularly and all has been fine for several weeks. I put the Key Largo rock in about 4 weeks ago. Should I start phasing out my Emperor HOB filter by removing the Bio-Wheels? Also I'm thinking about buying more Key Largo rock for the tank. I assume you cannot have too much live rock right?


You can not have to much live rock. so long as you are getting good water circulation and don't have dead spots. Glad you like the Key Largo!

I would remove 1 biowheel now, and the other in 2 weeks, just to be cautious.


----------



## shaggylawson

Pasfur said:


> You can not have to much live rock. so long as you are getting good water circulation and don't have dead spots. Glad you like the Key Largo!
> 
> I would remove 1 biowheel now, and the other in 2 weeks, just to be cautious.


Ok good, I'm going to get another 25lbs which will put me at about 90lbs.


----------



## shaggylawson

Ok I have lost another clown fish (cannot find him in the tank) and my Bi-Color Angel. Not sure what is going on. I have tested my water at least once a week for several weeks and nothing is really changing. Just tested again tonight and everything seems fine.

KH=11, Ammonia=0, Nitrite=0, Nitrate=0, Cal= 460, PH=8, Salinity=.024

Should I be testing something else or chalk this up as normal and sometimes there is no real reason.

I just got my new 25lbs of Key Largo rock delivered today and expect my new Aero Force Skimmer to be delivered tomorrow.


----------



## Pasfur

I think you will be happy with the AeroForce. It is pushing it a bit on your tank, but the difference compared to the SeaClone will be very nice.

How long have you had the BiColor Angel. They are extremely difficult to keep. If you've had it less than 6 months, i'd just chalk it up to one of those things. The Clown was sick before, right?

Sounds like its looking good. I need to get by to see that tank soon. I'm walking now and can take some not to long car rides.


----------



## shaggylawson

Both original clowns died several weeks ago. I replaced them with two new ones. I took one clown out of the tank last night and put him in the Q. Then this morning I saw the other clown in the main tank (the one I could not find and thought was dead). He looks like he has the same problem as the last two that died. So I put him in the Q this morning. I'm sure it will only be a matter of time before they die based on the last time I went through this.


----------



## Pasfur

Brad you may want to let your display run for 60 to 90 days without adding more fish. This should allow whatever is causing the problem to run its course. I have seen ich present itself again after 45 to 60 days. The tank would appear to be clear, all fish healthly, and upon adding a new fish the ich would take hold. When I had my ich outbreak on my Coral Beauty in 2008 I waited 90 days after all clear until adding more fish.

I'm not saying you have ich, but any parasite or viral infection would be less likely to present future problems if you waited a long period without seeing it appear on existing livestock.

I also firmly believe a UV running for a couple of weeks would help this situation.


----------



## shaggylawson

I will have to purchase a UV. Do you run your power head from the bottom of the tank or on the surface? I agree with not adding anything for awhile. I have lost too much money already (4 clowns and Angel fish) and since the water quality is great it must be something I cannot see or test for(it's not ich). My Aero Force was delivered on Friday but had some shipping damage so they are sending me another one this week. I was hoping to get that going this past weekend but will have to wait. I will also add my new 25lb Key Largo rock this week. Taking the first bio-wheel out has not seemed to effect anything yet so I will take the other one out in another week or two.


----------



## Pasfur

Did you have to ship the AeroForce back??? If not.... 

I run my UV out of my sump, so all water comes directly from the surface overflow. This is rather normal. I believe Wake does the same thing. I do not at all buy in to the idea that a little parasite is able to swim against the ridiculous currents in a marine tank. These currents circulate water all over. The only thing on the bottom would be what happens to settle.


----------



## wake49

Pasfur said:


> I believe Wake does the same thing.


I do.


----------



## shaggylawson

Yes the Aero Force is being picked up this week by UPS.


----------



## shaggylawson

Well my blue tang has lots of white spots now and appears to scratch his sides against the rocks. I cannot get a HOB UV locally so I will order one tonight from Marine Depot. In the mean time Pasfur I read in another post that you use Marine Two pellets to help fight ich. Do you use them for daily feeding or only when needed? I use Spectrum pellets daily and every other day I also feed frozen myce (not sure if that is spelled right). I think the Spectrum has garlic in it. Should I buy something with more garlic for daily feeding or is garlic only necessary when a disease is present?
Also I heard years ago about dipping a saltwater fish in fresh water to kill ich, but that sounds like it would be more stressful and trying to catch a fish in a tank with lots of rock is difficult. Is there any truth to that story or is it myth?

My Aero Force should be here today, hopfully it did not break during shipping this time and I can finally install it tonight.


----------



## Pasfur

I feed the garlic enhanced pellets every day, one feeding, always. When and if an outbreak occurs, I feed the garlic pellets exclusively, 3 or 4 times per day. I have more trust in the Ocean Nutrition brand.

I also have the Spectrum Pellets at home as part of my rotation of foods, but I have never attempted to use them on a tank with ich.

I think that freshwater dips are very stressful for fish. I have witnessed Tangs die within 10 seconds of being placed in an unmedicated dip. I think the practice is brutal and has no place in our hobby.

I would start the garlic feedings immediately. Go ahead and pick up the Ocean Nutrition pellets. Bruce has them on his shelve all the time. If your tank is a fish only, with no inverts, then we could also discuss lowering the salinity, but I would first give the garlic a chance, especially with a UV on the way.

My knee and flexibility are improving fast. I can probably get out there to take a look sometime soon if needed. Maybe even this Sunday if it the Tang gets any worse.


----------



## shaggylawson

I have a few snails but I guess if I had to lose something I would prefer it to be the cheaper snails. I was at Sandy's on lunch and they talked me into Copper. Should I take that back and not attempt Copper or will that help? If you are available then maybe you can drop by because I have other small things that I'm curious about, such as water circulation and powerhead placement (I started a thread today for that), types of algae growing good vs bad, placement of the new Aero Force Skimmer and future placement of the UV, tiny-hard white colored spots on the glass and some rocks, etc.


----------



## Pasfur

Copper? Man, i'm getting disappointed with some of the guys Sandy's. You have live rock in your tank. You can't use copper. It will kill the rock. Yes, take the copper back. They should have asked the correct questions before selling you the product.

I am happy to stop by. Tomorrow and Saturday are bad, but I will see what my wife is doing on Sunday. I lost your phone number, so shoot me a PM with your number.


----------



## shaggylawson

I sent you a PM.

Also in my earlier post I asked if I was testing for everything but don't remember if I saw a reply. I currently test for KH, Calc, Nitrite, Nitrate, Ammonia, and PH. Should I test for something else, like phosphate or copper, etc.?


----------



## shaggylawson

Pasfur said:


> I feed the garlic enhanced pellets every day, one feeding, always. When and if an outbreak occurs, I feed the garlic pellets exclusively, 3 or 4 times per day. I have more trust in the Ocean Nutrition brand.
> 
> I also have the Spectrum Pellets at home as part of my rotation of foods, but I have never attempted to use them on a tank with ich.
> 
> I think that freshwater dips are very stressful for fish. I have witnessed Tangs die within 10 seconds of being placed in an unmedicated dip. I think the practice is brutal and has no place in our hobby.
> 
> I would start the garlic feedings immediately. Go ahead and pick up the Ocean Nutrition pellets. Bruce has them on his shelve all the time. If your tank is a fish only, with no inverts, then we could also discuss lowering the salinity, but I would first give the garlic a chance, especially with a UV on the way.
> 
> My knee and flexibility are improving fast. I can probably get out there to take a look sometime soon if needed. Maybe even this Sunday if it the Tang gets any worse.


Sandy's did not have the pellets only the flakes so I did not buy them. The person also siad that they were not sure if it even came in pellets and that they do not stock the pellets. So I assume you get your supply online then correct?


----------



## Pasfur

Yes, i order most of my stuff online. It could have come from Greentree, but not sure. I shop there a lot. The weekend is about to hit and will slow down shipping, so feel free to drive out here and pick up some pellets if you would feel better.


----------



## shaggylawson

Can I just go buy some liquid garlic oil or extract from the grocery store and soak my Spectrum in it before giving it to them? I assume I do not need to buy special garlic at the fish store right?


----------



## Pasfur

shaggylawson said:


> Can I just go buy some liquid garlic oil or extract from the grocery store and soak my Spectrum in it before giving it to them? I assume I do not need to buy special garlic at the fish store right?


I have never done this, but in the early days of offering garlic, this was common. I would prefer to see you try the Spectrum for this weekend, and hopefully have the Ocean Nutrition brand by Monday. Also, I think Feeders Supply carries it, if you want to give them a call.


----------



## shaggylawson

I tried Feeders, Noah's Ark and Exotic Pets. Only Feeders had the brand but it too was in flakes not pellets. I use the Spectrum everyday as the primary food so using it would be normal. Are you saying use the Spectrum the way it is for now, or use the Spectrum with a garlic liquid until I can get the Ocean Nutrition?


----------



## Pasfur

Ich progresses so rapidly that I just don't know what to tell you. If you order online and wait until it arrives, your situation could be worse. Of course even this food isn't a medication. I believe in it, but its not like we are discussing an actual treatment. So you want to get feeding it ASAP to booste the fish's chance at fighting off the parasite on its own. 

Did you look the shelves over for a garlic supplement at the LFS? Most offer Selcon, but it is not really garlic. Maybe there is another product similar that is a garlic enhanced liquid in which you could soak the flakes. My algae sheets are also garlic enhanced. You are welcome to a few sheets and a week supply of pellets if you want to shop at Marks Pet Shop this evening. LOL


----------



## n1zjd

Pasfur said:


> Ich progresses so rapidly that I just don't know what to tell you. If you order online and wait until it arrives, your situation could be worse. Of course even this food isn't a medication. I believe in it, but its not like we are discussing an actual treatment. So you want to get feeding it ASAP to booste the fish's chance at fighting off the parasite on its own.
> 
> Did you look the shelves over for a garlic supplement at the LFS? Most offer Selcon, but it is not really garlic. Maybe there is another product similar that is a garlic enhanced liquid in which you could soak the flakes. My algae sheets are also garlic enhanced. You are welcome to a few sheets and a week supply of pellets if you want to shop at Marks Pet Shop this evening. LOL


What a guy! Hey Mark, when are you opening a store local to me? :lol:


----------



## Pasfur

n1zjd said:


> What a guy! Hey Mark, when are you opening a store local to me? :lol:


Hey, i tired to offer you a free aquarium and sump, but you aren't willing to buy an ocean front condo to trade me. ;-)


----------



## n1zjd

Pasfur said:


> Hey, i tired to offer you a free aquarium and sump, but you aren't willing to buy an ocean front condo to trade me. ;-)


HAHAHA Im still working on that!


----------



## shaggylawson

Sandy's does have some liguid product for garlic but I think it was $15 a bottle. It's not that I care about $15 but I just wanted to make sure I was not buying over priced garlic liquid that is the same stuff I can get at the grocery store for $3. If it is truely garlic that is the answer then I know I can get it in liquid form at Walgreens, but if it is some speacial "garlic" for fish then I guess I will pay the high price. I ordered the food and UV last night but I do not expect it to be here until late next week. So I wll check out Sandy's and Walgreens on lunch today.


----------



## Pasfur

I know that originally in the hobby people were using liquid garlic from the pharmacy. Now, what I do not know is if the garlic at the LFS is an improved version that is more easily utilized by the fish.


----------



## shaggylawson

Ok I bought the Seachem Garlic Guard from the pet store. How long do I soak the pellets, until they look semi-soggy or just enough to get them wet?


----------



## shaggylawson

I have noticed a lot of these tiny white hard shell looking things attaching to my glass and rocks. Are they normal or is this an ich or parasite issue/egg? I know they are hard because I can feel them when I scrape the tank and they are hard to get off.

I know the pics are not great but they are tiny and hard to get a good picture of.


----------



## shaggylawson

Also since it seems there are lots of opinions on treating ich let me ask this. Will an ich treatment like Nox Ich harm the tank, I know there seems to be no absolute solution but if it will not harm the tank then maybe it will not hurt to try that also. Thoughts?


----------



## Pasfur

Actually, there are almost no options for treating ich. Almost every product on the market has been shown very conclusively to be extremely ineffective. You can't go 6 months without one of the major magazines in the hobby publishing an article detailing this. To make it worse, they are very stressful on the fish and many will kill the live rock and live sand microfauna. I have yet to see any product that I trust, and I have used almost everything on the shelf countless times.

If I had to pick a medication, I would use Rid Ich by Kordon, and do so in a quarantine tank. I have had mixed success with it. Unfortunately it is a very strong medication and I would never risk it on my display. I have also had mild success with Quick Cure. On the other hand, I have had horrible experiences with Copper, including Cuppramine, and would never recommend it. It is very ineffective and often stresses the fish, escalating what was a mild problem.

The only method I personally trust at all is to lower the salinity to near 1.015 and feed garlic, combined with the use of a UV. I have not lost a fish to ich using this technique. I generally give garlic an opportunity to work before I lower salinity, because any environmental change is stressful on the fish. You have to balance the risk/reward.


----------



## shaggylawson

Any ideas on the above post with the pics?


----------



## shaggylawson

I tested my water and I'm no longer using the strips for Nitrite and Nitrate. It was just to hard to get an accurate reading. So it appears that my Nitrate may not have been 0 all this time. With the chemical test it shows between 5-10. What effect does Nitrate have on the fish? Could this be why I have ich or lost my angel fish so quickly or is Nitrate not a big deal? I will not use the strips any more.


----------



## Pasfur

The impacts of Nitrate are slow. It suppresses the immunity and makes the fish more prone to infection. Think of Nitrates as having the same impact as a radio turned on in your bedroom at night. The higher the volume the more difficult it becomes to sleep, and the more stressed you become after prolonged exposure. Eventually you break down.


----------



## Pasfur

I can't tell a lot from the pictures. This looks a bit like the beginning of coraline algae, but if it is within a couple of days it will turn pink/purple. I hate to say it, because i'm sure you tried already, but we need a closer pictures.


----------



## shaggylawson

So what causes Nitrate to go up or how do I get it to zero? Does it have anything to do with me taking my bio-wheels out of my Emperor? Is it due to the Seaclone not doing its job and will the new Aero Force make a difference or is it something completely different?


----------



## shaggylawson

So what causes Nitrate to go up or how do I get it to zero? Does it have anything to do with me taking my bio-wheels out of my Emperor? Is it due to the Seaclone not doing its job and will the new Aero Force make a difference or is it something completely different?


----------



## Pasfur

The biowheels are actually what caused the nitrate in the first place. They break down ammonia into nitrite, and then nitrite into nitrate. Removing the biowheels is going to help. As the AeroForce breaks in it will remove organic waste before the waste is broken down into nitrate. 

The additional dry rock you purchased will help as well, as denitrifying bacteria are capable of living inside the rock. These bacteria break down nitrate into nitrogen gas, which then leaves the system naturally. 

How high are your nitrates?


----------



## Pasfur

Pasfur said:


> The biowheels are actually what caused the nitrate in the first place. They break down ammonia into nitrite, and then nitrite into nitrate.


You know, maybe I should elaborate on this. Waste causes nitrates, not biowheels. Higher fish loads, excess feeding, and other organic decay is metabolized by bacteria. The biowheel is a place for bacteria to grow. It is these bacteria that process ammonia and nitrite, resulting in Nitrate.


----------



## shaggylawson

Pasfur said:


> The biowheels are actually what caused the nitrate in the first place. They break down ammonia into nitrite, and then nitrite into nitrate. Removing the biowheels is going to help. As the AeroForce breaks in it will remove organic waste before the waste is broken down into nitrate.
> 
> The additional dry rock you purchased will help as well, as denitrifying bacteria are capable of living inside the rock. These bacteria break down nitrate into nitrogen gas, which then leaves the system naturally.
> 
> How high are your nitrates?


 
It was between 5-10 based on the new API test that started using. I just could not tell on the strips anymore so I bought the liquid test for Nitrate and Nitrite. The Aero Force is finally getting a collection in the collection cup. It took a few days but it looks like it is primed now. My UV should be in this Thursday.


----------



## Pasfur

Very nice. Nitrate levels below 20ppm is good. Under 10ppm is great. You should see the Nitrates drop to zero over the next few months.


----------



## shaggylawson

I have been feeding the Spectrum pellets with the Garlic Guard each day and some Mysis with Garlic Guard every other day. It looks like the Blue Tang is doing better or at least not getting worse. It looks like where the white spots were on his sides are now gone or light black in color. I will get the Ocean Nutrition pellets in on Thursday also and will put that into a regular rotation.


----------



## Pasfur

Nice. More often than not in a healthy environment, the fish will fight off a mild infestation of ich on their own, without you taking any action. The UV will just help things.


----------



## shaggylawson

Spoke too soon!! This morning when I started to feed them I noticed the Blue Tang has a bad case again and the Wrasse has it all over him as well. The fish eat really well particularly the Wrasse and all of them have good looking stomachs (meaning they are not skinny as if they are sick or unhealthy). I’ll keep feeding them the same food with Garlic Guard and also add the new food tonight along with the UV (provided it is delivered on time today). I guess I’m just a little shocked at how it could show great progress and look so good for 2 days and then overnight it looks just as bad if not worse than it did when it started a week ago.


----------



## Pasfur

Its the life cycle of the parasite. I have to pick Zach up from school tomorrow. I could stop by around 2:30 if you can be home.


----------



## shaggylawson

I cannot be home at 2:30 but thanks anyway. I'm sure there is really nothing that can be done other than what I've been doing so I will just continue the process. Introducing the UV and Ocean Nutrition food tonight combined with the current process may start to break the cycle or get it under control. I’ll also test the water tonight and make sure nothing has changed. I guess it is just a wait and see situation.


----------



## Pasfur

At least post some pics. Lets make sure you are looking at ich, and not some other virus of less consequence.


----------



## shaggylawson

I will try to get some pics of the Blue Tang but he normally hides when I go up to the tank and in the past pictures are to hard to see. The other odd thing is that when I got home the Wrasse did not appear to have anything on him now. I'm hooking up the UV now and gave them some Ocean Nutrition with Garlic Guard tonight. I will use the Ocean Nutrition each feeding for a week to see what happens.
Also I tested the water and everything is great including the Nitrate which is now 0 again. I no longer have the Emperor only LR, Skimmer and UV.


----------



## Pasfur

I found a similar process on my Coral Beauty when feeding garlic. The spots just seemed to come and go at an unnatural pace. Another member here is 'treating' with garlic only right now and is 17 days into a successful treatment.


----------



## shaggylawson

The Blue Tang is camera shy so here is a pic of the Dotty Back. The Sailfin Tang has it also but it is hard to see because of his color. Look at the back fin, front fin and top fin. It is also on the body but you just cannot see it in the pics. The Blue Tang is a lot worse or it just may be easier to see on him.


----------



## Pasfur

That is starting to set in pretty good Brad. If it were my tank, I would lower the salinity to 1.016. Just do a series of water changes, replacing the saltwater with freshwater. You could wait to see if the UV arrives tomorrow and give it a few days, but I'm afraid the next round of ich will be very heavy, and you may want to pull out the options now.

Keep in mind, as soon as you begin to medicate or alter the environment, you are adding an additional stress to the fish. So it is not without risks. However, many people believe that the lower salinity makes it difficult for the parasites to thrive, and allows the fish to devote more energy to their immunity system. I have used this method many times, honestly with mixed results. However, the results have been far greater than with medications.


----------



## shaggylawson

Here is the Blue Tang


----------



## shaggylawson

The UV came today and it is on the tank and running as of about 8:30PM.


----------



## wake49

How are their breathing? Are they very labored?


----------



## shaggylawson

The Blue Tang has it a lot worse than the others, but actually they all act fine including the Blue Tang. They swim actively, have a great appetite and do not appear to have issues breathing.


----------



## wake49

Tangs are more susceptible than other species of fish, they don't have a good slime coat. I have seen my Hippo get ich and it ran its course. It never got that bad, but if they are still active and not breathing heavy and labored, then you can still fight the infection. I agree with Pasfur, hyposalinity is probably your best bet. Any medications you use will stay in your system for a long time, and not necessarily do any good.

Do you have a QT set up? I always wonder how the microfauna will fare in hyposalinity, and if it would be better to isolate the inhabitants away from the tank for 90 days.


----------



## shaggylawson

No I do not have a QT. I have an 8 gallon Eclipse that I can get up and running pretty fast, but that will not be good for 5 fish particularly the Wrasse. I'm pretty much stuck with having to do all efforts in the main tank. I will lower the salinity and see what that does. Also would a temp change help? Does Ich need high temps to survive or lower temps? I could raise the temp gradually or lower it depending on the hurts the Ich more. The UV was added last night so hopefully that helps also.
How much water will I need to take out of my 72 in order to lower the salinity from the current 1.024?


----------



## wake49

You will do a series of small water changes, taking 5-10% of the water out and replacing it with freshwater (5% would not be as aggressive as 10%). Do this over the course of the next week. This should get your salinity down to 1.016 (it might take a day or two, more or less). When the water is down to 1.016, I have heard that small water changes are necessary to pull out the free-swimming ich (I do not know how true or accurate that is). Either way, I would keep the salinity in that range for the better part of a month, at the end of which you will increase the salinity in the same manner. Change 5-10% of the water daily with 1.026 water until you are back at your desired range.

About the increasing of the water temperature. I have heard that increased water temperature will speed up the life cycle of the ich parasite. I do not know if I would subject the already stressed fish to higher water temperatures than 80-82 degrees, but that is up to you.

Start running that UV as it will kill a lot of the free-swimming ich parasite, which will help in controlling the issue.


----------



## wake49

EDIT: I want to edit the (it should take a day or two, more or less)

I wanted this to mean that it might take a day or two longer than a week, or maybe just 5 or 6 days.


----------



## Pasfur

I agree with Wake on everything above.

In terms of doing water changes, they will be most effective at removing unhatched parasites from the surface of the substrate. If you do this, just a small daily change, from just above the substrate, moving all over the bottom of the tank, without siphoning the substrate. In theory, this can lessen the severity of the next infection as the life cycle progresses.


----------



## shaggylawson

I took out about 6 gal or 8% for the first change and it lowered the salinity to 1.020. I will only do 3 gal or 5% each day from now on. After this I will have tried averything possible and will just have to see what happens.


----------



## wake49

How are things going with the hyposalinity treatment?


----------



## shaggylawson

I have it down to about 1.0175 -1.018. I think that I will have it down to 1.016 with tonights change. So far there does not seem to be any improvement but it is also no worse.


----------



## Pasfur

shaggylawson said:


> there does not seem to be any improvement but it is also no worse.


When fighting ich, that is an improvement! I think things will turn around very soon. You have a pretty heavy infestation, so it is a good sign that they are not getting worse. Move it on down to 1.015.


----------



## shaggylawson

What a difference a day or two makes in the fish business. I lost the Blue Tang this morning. He was the most infected by far, so I'm not sure if that is good or bad. Good if he was a source for the ich to continue and bad if the ich will move to another host/fish. I'm still concerned about these little white, hard dots that keep growing on my tank glass and rocks. Does ich start off looking like this as eggs or is this just normal and harmless, because I'm getting more of it.


----------



## Pasfur

You can't see ich "eggs". They are to small. I suspect you are seeing what is the beginning of coraline algae growth that never sets in.


----------



## Pasfur

I predict that you will find a 1/3 full container of Ocean Nutrition garlic pellets on your porch sometime this evening....


----------



## DisneyCoralReef

Pasfur said:


> I predict that you will find a 1/3 full container of Ocean Nutrition garlic pellets on your porch sometime this evening....


:lol: if I fly you over, will stay for a couple months to set up my tank? pretty please  ;-)


----------



## Pasfur

DisneyCoralReef said:


> :lol: if I fly you over, will stay for a couple months to set up my tank? pretty please  ;-)


Hey, I already offered a similar deal to another member.... I tried to get an ocean front condo in Maine, but he didn't bite.

Fly me in, put me up at a Disney Resort with a 5 day park hopper pass, stock the room fridge with select beverages, and hey, I'd be happy to swing by a day or 2 and give the tank a glance. ;-)

By the way, I visited this tank today that is the subject of this thread. I'm pretty sure Brad gave me a few weird looks every now and then and probably thought "what kind of dork actually knows this stuff".

Anyhow, after seeing the tank in person I don't think this is ich (Cryptocaryon). I think it is amyloodinium, which is marine velvet. The spots are much more powder like and hazy, rather than distint white salt grains, if that helps anyone to visualize the disease. 

This explains why it has been so stubborn, and why the Clownfish died the deaths they did without us really seeing anything visible in the pictures. It also fits the symptoms of labored breathing.

In any case, I suggested that Brad increase the temperature to 82F and lower the salinity to 1.015, and continue the garlic feedings. He already has a UV Sterilizer running. At this point I think we just wait it out and see how things improve.


----------



## shaggylawson

I lowered the salinity to 1.015 Sunday morning and adjusted the temp. So now I am in a waiting game (an expensive one :-D).


----------



## shaggylawson

Well I cannot say that things are better and at times they seem worse. The Sailfin seems to be covered more than before and the Wrasse is covered in the mornings but not at night. I did have to bring the dkh and calcium up due to the water changes. That is the report for now.


----------



## shaggylawson

Mark, I hosed off the red algae from the fossil coral, but now it looks like it is growing more on the rocks and has covered one. What causes this red algae so I can correct it and should I remove it from the rocks by hand?


----------



## shaggylawson

I have not seen the Wrasse for several days and cannot find him in the tank with all the rock, so I assume he is gone. I'm down to the original 2 fish I started with several months ago (the Fox Face and Sailfin). I'm not sure how they have out lived all the other fish considering I thought I was going to lose them in the beginning due to cycling issues (bad pet store advice). I have lost 8 fish in total now $$$$. Of course the Fox Face and Sailfin are back to hiding all the time so I only see them when they eat. As of this morning it looked like most if not all of the ich/amyloodinium on the Sailfin is gone but the Fox Face still has some. This may be good since the Sailfin was covered in it not too long ago, but I'm a little "glass half empty" right now because I have seen this before. It looks like it is gone at times and then a few hours later it is heavy again on that same fish. That happened a lot with the Wrasse and now he is dead, so again I'm just in a waiting game. The Fox Face does seem to be having more trouble breathing so it may only be a matter of time for him also.


----------



## Pasfur

shaggylawson said:


> Mark, I hosed off the red algae from the fossil coral, but now it looks like it is growing more on the rocks and has covered one. What causes this red algae so I can correct it and should I remove it from the rocks by hand?


I wouldn't worry to much about this Brad. If you want to remove it, try to siphon it out of the tank with airline tubing. If that doesn't work, stop at the hardware store and buy some tubing that is just a little bit wider, but not so wide that you find a lot of aquarium water siphoning out fast.

If you want, rather than mixing up a new batch of water for this, just run the water through a net to catch the cyno algae and then replace the water.

At this point, I would personally lower the salinity further, down to 1.013.


----------



## shaggylawson

Well so far so good. Since my last post on 3-29-10 the Sailfin has continued to be free of the ich/amyloodinium and the Fox Face is looking and acting a lot better. As of yesterday I did not see much if any on the Fox Face and his eyes have gone from cloudy to clear again. Both are eating well but hide a lot. Somehow these two fish have managed to beat all the odds from the beginning. I plan to keep the same levels and not add anything for several more months. The red algae is still growing rapidly though and has covered a lot of the rock.


----------



## Pasfur

Good news Brad. I bet this is the beginning of the end of your problems, because you seem to be taking all the right steps.


----------

