# Lets talk ethics of fish in cycles



## Guppie luver

So I am about to start my 125 gallon tank cycle, and I currently have a molly, a platy, and a small swordtail, that I don't have much want for, I still take care of them, but there have been some compatibility issues with their tank mates, so I was thinking that I would let them have the tank for the cycle and if they make it that is great they will go back to their old tank, but if they don't it won't end in heart break. Just thought I'd open up a discussion, be kind, I know I'm gonna have people who think its horrible and thats fine, just lets all be civil


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## lilnaugrim

Idk, most of us here do fish-in cycles all the time or after the first one; seed the next one with material from the first.

As long as you use some sort of ammonia locking agent such as SeaChem Prime, the fish are completely safe so I don't see where it's an issue at all to use fish to cycle the tank. You won't have a fully complete bacteria cycle with only a few fish if you intend to have a fully stocked tank. You will have to add fish slowly as usual; 2-4 fish added per week to be on the safe side  always check your ammonia and you should be great!


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## Guppie luver

Thanks, and my tank will eventually be planted with live plants... When I have the money for plants and such haha


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## corina savin

I don't see any issues here. Three small fish in a 125g tank should be the happiest fish alive. The ammonia level will be unmeasurable in such a large tank.
Furthermore, since you already have a cycled tank, you can seed the new one in a number of ways: move some decorations, a handful of gravel, a piece of filter media or you can scrape some biofilm off the old aquarium glass (during a water change, when water level is low) and drop it in the new tank.


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## beaslbob

I start the tank with live plants.

then introduce a single fish (10g tank) and not add food for a week.

IMHO there is absolutely no stress to the fish because the live plants directly consume ammonia and carbon dioxide and return oxygen.

long ago I did feed that first fish and it was stressed after 3 days and died on the fifth day. the second fish I added always lived.

my .02


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## Tolak

beaslbob said:


> I start the tank with live plants.
> 
> then introduce a single fish (10g tank) and not add food for a week.
> 
> IMHO there is absolutely no stress to the fish because the live plants directly consume ammonia and carbon dioxide and return oxygen.
> 
> long ago I did feed that first fish and it was stressed after 3 days and died on the fifth day. the second fish I added always lived.
> 
> my .02


This is often referred to as a silent cycle, an excellent way to start a tank. I don't do plants at all, I've got enough tanks & spare filters running that I clone new tanks.


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## beaslbob

Tolak said:


> This is often referred to as a silent cycle, an excellent way to start a tank. I don't do plants at all, I've got enough tanks & spare filters running that I clone new tanks.


+1

With cloning tanks you are relying IMHO on the bacteria cycle not the plant action. So you actually have the ammonia->nitrite->nitrate action.

With plants you have ammonia->plants. also resulting with consuming co2 and returning oxygen.


FWIW to newbies the reason it is called silent is that the tank is actually cycling (building up bacteria for ammonia) but there is no ammonia. hence silent.

It is also possible to have an almost immediate nitrate spike when there is ammonia-nitrate sources from substrates or reusing other aquariums' water.

Still just my .02


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## Termato

After I've witnessed multiple fish die from being cycled, I no longer use live animals in my cycling process. Only two of my fish have survived even a very quick cycle (it was a 2 foot pleco and a 1 foot pleco). Personally, I don't think it's worth the risk to any life just to cycle a tank when there are other methods out there. That's my two cents!

Guppie Lover, if you want a LOT of java moss, I can send you some for free  um...just PM me. I've been MIA but I've been checking back on here often.


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## Tolak

Termato said:


> After I've witnessed multiple fish die from being cycled, I no longer use live animals in my cycling process. Only two of my fish have survived even a very quick cycle (it was a 2 foot pleco and a 1 foot pleco). Personally, I don't think it's worth the risk to any life just to cycle a tank when there are other methods out there. That's my two cents!
> 
> Guppie Lover, if you want a LOT of java moss, I can send you some for free  um...just PM me. I've been MIA but I've been checking back on here often.


Some of what I do involves what I guess you'd call a hybrid sort of cloning/fish in cycling. A bit of blurb explaining how & what I do; Organic Blackworms - Aquarium Cloning

Last Saturday I picked up a dozen dollar+ body size angels, potential breeding stock. They went into a 55 that was stocked with 4 nickel body size angels, which has been running stocked for 12 years, a couple canisters & 3 large sponge filters for filtration. I've been doing daily 30% water changes, I let the tank evaporate down, increasing hardness, so I want to soften it a bit daily, old breeding trick. If it weren't for that it would be 50% every other day, after several days it's a done deal. Getting fish in, even after transportation being bagged for several hours, there's minimal losses, no different from transferring fish I've bred to a larger tank. The only tricks are mature bio filtration, change lots of water, and a good dose of Prime.

Awesome of you to offer the moss, in my mind this sort of helpfulness, especially for someone newer, is what this hobby as well as this site is all about! :-D


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## LittleStar

Termato said:


> After I've witnessed multiple fish die from being cycled, I no longer use live animals in my cycling process. Only two of my fish have survived even a very quick cycle (it was a 2 foot pleco and a 1 foot pleco). Personally, I don't think it's worth the risk to any life just to cycle a tank when there are other methods out there. That's my two cents!
> 
> Guppie Lover, if you want a LOT of java moss, I can send you some for free  um...just PM me. I've been MIA but I've been checking back on here often.


(Okay since the title of this thread was, after all - "Let's Talk Ethics")
I agree wholeheartedly with you Termato - there are other ways without resorting to that but if you do then you should be aiming to keep them living while its cycling.


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## willow

in the beginning i cycled with fish...and made many mistakes.
i guess now i'm so long in the tooth,that it comes naturally to hide
within the decor a couple of sponges,i've even stuffed filter
noodles in a net bag,and hidden that .
i say that if you can do without fish,then do it.


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## pop

Hello:
I have never nor do I plan to cycle a freshwater aquarium. It seems to me the nitrogen cycle is a natural process that always occurs when the necessary components are present. One has to work very hard to prevent the establishment of the biological filter (nitrogen cycle), if it is even possible to stop the development of the biological filter in fresh water aquariums. I don’t see an ethical issue with a process that naturally occurs. There may be ethical issues with adding excessive livestock creating unhealthy environment.


By naming the biological filter cycling opens the natural process to the notion there is a beginning and end of the cycling process and that fish keepers must do something to enhance natural occurring process. Fish keepers can be overwhelmed by the vast number of products to enhance the nitrogen cycle resulting in possible ethical issue associated with the use of these products for nitrogen control.


Tolak pointed out silent cycle what a nice phrase to use I wonder how much ammonia will a single guppy produce in twenty four hour period in a twenty gallon tank? 
pop


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## beaslbob

pop said:


> Hello:
> I have never nor do I plan to cycle a freshwater aquarium. It seems to me the nitrogen cycle is a natural process that always occurs when the necessary components are present. One has to work very hard to prevent the establishment of the biological filter (nitrogen cycle), if it is even possible to stop the development of the biological filter in fresh water aquariums. I don’t see an ethical issue with a process that naturally occurs. There may be ethical issues with adding excessive livestock creating unhealthy environment.
> 
> 
> By naming the biological filter cycling opens the natural process to the notion there is a beginning and end of the cycling process and that fish keepers must do something to enhance natural occurring process. Fish keepers can be overwhelmed by the vast number of products to enhance the nitrogen cycle resulting in possible ethical issue associated with the use of these products for nitrogen control.
> 
> 
> *Tolak pointed out silent cycle what a nice phrase to use I wonder how much ammonia will a single guppy produce in twenty four hour period in a twenty gallon tank*?
> pop


not relevant when live plants are consuming any and all ammonia being produced. :lol::shock::roll::-D


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## JackC

I agree,guess it comes down to how much you love them ......


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## beaslbob

JackC said:


> I agree,guess it comes down to how much you love them ......


which is why I use live plants and do a fish in cycle.

but some boards on the internet kicked me off because they did not believe that. :lol::lol::lol:


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## pop

Hello BeaslBob:
That is an interesting post and brings up a notion that live plants supersede the bacterial process of nitrification? Since live plants are in competition with nitrification bacteria for scarce resource ammonia does this mean that nitrifying bacterial cease to influence water quality in planted freshwater aquarium? 


We know that ammonia production is an on-going all the time in our tanks and I think in live plants the uptake and use of nitrogen occurs during the dark reaction of photosynthesis (calvin cycle). If this is correct how do live plants consume ammonia during the light reaction phase of photosynthesis?


Could the answer be that nitrifying bacteria consumes produced ammonia during the light phase of photosynthesis making nitrification relevant? 
pop


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## corina savin

Calvin cycle is about sugars making. No nitrogen needed there.
There are some studies showing that plants need light to take up nitrates (needs energy to reduce the nitrates back to nitrites and then ammonium) while ammonium is used up at night. And ammonia is not scarce in aquarium. Carbon is. For every nitrogen to be used, 10 times more carbon is needed among other elements and proper light.
Bob. I don't think anybody would contest the "silent cycle". The problem is: one has to cater to the plant's needs in order to make that plant assimilate nitrogen and fulfill it's duties. A plant must grow not just survive during the silent cycle.


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## beaslbob

pop said:


> Hello BeaslBob:
> That is an interesting post and brings up a notion that live plants supersede the bacterial process of nitrification? Since live plants are in competition with nitrification bacteria for scarce resource ammonia does this mean that nitrifying bacterial cease to influence water quality in planted freshwater aquarium?


no


> We know that ammonia production is an on-going all the time in our tanks and I think in live plants the uptake and use of nitrogen occurs during the dark reaction of photosynthesis (calvin cycle). If this is correct how do live plants consume ammonia during the light reaction phase of photosynthesis?


 I give up how? :lol: On a balanced out tank the plants are consuming nitrates anyway. But should something happen and ammonia is present they will consume the ammonia


> Could the answer be that nitrifying bacteria consumes produced ammonia during the light phase of photosynthesis making nitrification relevant?
> pop


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## pop

Hello Corina Savin:
Well as you pointed out I am not correct about the calvin cycle and nitrogen, thanks for getting my guppies in a row.
Now I am interested in how plants absorb nitrogen , thanks beaslbob. 
pop


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## beaslbob

pop said:


> Hello Corina Savin:
> Well as you pointed out I am not correct about the calvin cycle and nitrogen, thanks for getting my guppies in a row.
> Now I am interested in how plants absorb nitrogen , thanks beaslbob.
> pop


Welcome.

(FWIW I didn't realize this during my first 40 years of aquariums. the method just worked for me. :lol:)

As you already know some "plants" can actually fix nitrogen gas from the water column. So as nitrates get low those forms tend to bloom. The most obvious example is cyano bacteria. Every thing goes great for 6-7 month, nitrates finally drop down then in a week or two cyano is all over the sand, on the decorations, on the glass and clouding the water. Even happens in a marine environment.


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## corina savin

78% of air is nitrogen N2 (gas) that plants cannot use.
Nitrogen fixation is a critical process for terrestrial plants, irrelevant for our aquatic plants.
Nitrogen fixation bacteria (not plants) in the soil will turn N2 into ammonium/nitrates available to the plant's roots.
Aquatic plants prefer leaf uptake of ammonium while terrestrial plants grow better with nitrates at their roots. Fish can produce enough ammonia to support plants. Again, aquatic plants are limited by the amount of carbon in the water (fish respiration is not enough) than the nitrogen.
We are all aware that the "nitrogen cycle" in our tanks is not actually a "cycle" because no nitrogen fixation (no N2 gas is entering) or de-nitrification (N2 gas leaving) is taking place. The source of nitrogen is in the fish food. Plants will remove it by using it to grow (it is still there, in the plant mass; will leave the tank when you trim the plant). If no plants, a water change will do.


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## pop

Hello Corina Savin:
Was reading your post and wondered how correct is the notion "nitrogen cycle" in our tanks is not actually a "cycle" because no nitrogen fixation (no N2 gas is entering) or de-nitrification (N2 gas leaving) is taking place” I thought that atmospheric gas relationships kept the same relationships when dissolved in water so there would as you said 78% of all dissolved gases in the water column is inorganic nitrogen just waiting to be fixed by such life forms as Pointed out by beaslbob cyanobacteria, which is a fixer of inert nitrogen. Now the impact of fixed nitrogen might be slight in aquariums but yet the potential for fixed nitrogen still exist.
I assume you are quoting Ms. Diane Walstien the goddess of fish keeping?
pop


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## corina savin

It is not a complete cycle because it does not end where it started. It starts with ammonia produced by fish and ends with nitrates produced by bacteria. I am skeptical about any nitrate reduction (de-nitrifying) happening in a normal tank. It needs anaerobic conditions.
I agree that a complete cycle occurs in oceans.


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## beaslbob

well the way I look at it is we start with plants and fish and some level of water nitrogen with no nitrates, nitrItes, ammonia, ammonium. We then create ammonia then nitrites then nitrates. the plants consume the ammonia/nitrates so we end up with the same level of water nitrogen and no ammonia, nitrItes, nitrAtes but some more plants. ammonia, nitrItes, nitrAtes wise that to me seems to be a complete cycle. :lol:


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## Hallyx

In a straight nitrogen "cycle" (no plants), there is a continual buildup of nitrate which must eventually be diluted by performing a water change. That's why it is an incomplete cycle. 

If you could de-nitrify that nitrate, (cleave the N from the 03), the 02 would recombine with any carbon (oxidize it into CO2), the extra 0- would stay in the water, and all those H+ ions would join the N- to reform into ammonia to be oxidized by the nitrifying bacteria. Then you'd have a complete cycle. That's my current oversimplified understanding, anyway

It can be done, but it's a lot easier in a large pond or small lake (but there, of course, you'd have the influence of plants). Really not practical for a normal hobbyists aquarium --- unless, as Corina says, you're into deep bed anaerobic stuff, and even then it's tricky.


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## kedi

I like to think that unlike the human fish tank, the ethical fish survive and flourish. Good ethics should help one to survive through changing times. Maybe it is the most ethical fish that don't make it. Sacrificing themselves for the greater good. Install an ornament to their memory. Or maybe I misinterpreted the title of the thread.


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## Hallyx

:lol::crazy:

Good one. Welcome to the forum.

:cheers:


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