# Sick Goldfish...please help, I don't know what to do



## rae3988 (Jan 22, 2008)

I just switched tanks and got a 2.5 gallon minitank with a tetra water filter. I tested with strips and everything looks good.

At first, he was swimming around almost psychotically, and would be shaking (to which I couldn't capture on camera) but now he's shaking in place, then swimming a little, then not swimming at all, then swimming more shaking simultaneously...

Somethng is NOT right, and I just don't know what to do.

different videos; this one, at the end, it almost seems like shimmy 
http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a197/rae3988/?action=view&current=secondsemest010.flv
and the other one seems just strange...occasionally you see him doing the shaking thing...
http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a197/rae3988/?action=view&current=secondsemest012.flv


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

hi
can i ask how fast is the flow of water in there from the filter,
he looks like hes fighting the current ?


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## rae3988 (Jan 22, 2008)

the flow is pretty minimal....or at least, it certainly doesn't seem to big.
another video, which epitomizes why I'm freaked out (and it helps that I put the camera down instead of having a shaky hand)

The shakes are so obvious in person but no camera is catching it quite right

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a197/rae3988/?action=view&current=secondsemest013.flv


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## Falina (Feb 25, 2007)

Sorry to say it but hose test strips are a waste of time and money. They're very inaccurate. You would be better off, and would get real results using a liquid test kit. Master test kits test for amonia, nitrite, nitrate and ph, all of which are crucial to know.

Like you said the shaking isn't visible in the videos much but in such a small tank the chances are your parameters could be off so I would recommend testing again with a better kit. Did you cycle the tank first before you put him in?


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

That fish has a swim bladder problem, that is very obvious. He's having a hard time staying down low in the tank, and the twitching is his struggling to do so. The best treatment I know for this is epsom salts, it usually works fast. What kind of food are you offering him? If he is feeding at the surface he will gulp a lot of air, which will cause this. If this becomes ongoing, it can cause internal damage.
Always feed fancy goldfish with food that sinks to the bottom. If you can't find any pellets that sink, soak the floating pellets in water until they are water logged enough to sink to the bottom of the cup, then feed them to the fish. 
Add 1 teaspoon of epsom salts to the tank, don't dissolve them in water first, just sprinkle it in. Withhold that day's feeding and see if you can get the fish to eat one or 2 pieces of the epsom salt first, this will help a lot faster. Keep the water cool (65 - 68 degrees) and very clean (50% water change every day) and he should be fine in a few days. 
The other advice I have to offer is this: start shopping for a much larger tank already now. These fish grow fast, and are very dirty, also consume a large amount of oxygen. Fancy goldfish grow to 8 inches, and to go from the size yours is to about 3 - 4 inches in the first year should be expected. You'll want at least 40 gallons for the first year or so, then up to about 75 gallons after that for the one fish. If you add another, 90 gallons would be enough for 2.


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## rae3988 (Jan 22, 2008)

is basic aquarium salt the same thing as epsom salt?

and as for cycling the tank...I'm going to have to guess that I didn't, because I don't know what that means..


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## Falina (Feb 25, 2007)

rae3988 said:


> is basic aquarium salt the same thing as epsom salt?
> 
> and as for cycling the tank...I'm going to have to guess that I didn't, because I don't know what that means..


No it's different but you should be able to get it easly from a lfs. I know ine stocks it and would imagine most, if not all do.

Cycling is where you let the tank run for a period of 2-8, maybe more weeks without fish and "feed" it to allow amonia, nitrite, nitrate build up and then disappear as the nitrogen cycle takes place. It can also be done with fish where the fish are a sort of sacrafice to the tnk as many will not survive. when fish are used it is the waste that breaks down and creates the toxins whereas with the fish food is is the rottig food that breaks down.

There's a great sticky at the beginning of the starting and maintaining section byt fish4all that details cycling and the different methods if you want to learn more.


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## rae3988 (Jan 22, 2008)

No, I hadn't done that at all...

it always seems like at night he's acting stranger. As for what someone else said above, do you thnk it could be swim bladder? I'm so terrified of losing him that I'm overly anxious and dont' know enough about what to do next, or my timeframe for "danger" is (aka I almost want to go to walmart RIGHT NOW to find epsom salts..etc)


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

No, there is a difference. Basic aquarium salt may help some, but I would suggest epsom salts instead if thats possible. If you use basic aquarium salt, cut the amount to 1/2 teaspoon instead. It is also more unlikely that you will be able to get him to eat any of the aquarium salt. Do the same thing, sprinkle it in across the top of the water.

As for the cycle, maybe this can help:
http://www.angelfire.com/me4/aquariumworld/nitrogen1.htm

Let me know if you need more help.


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## rae3988 (Jan 22, 2008)

I guess my only real question is- is he at risk for, well, death? Immediate or rather soon? 

I'm going to add the aq. salts shortly, I keep watching him and can't believe this shaking can't be caught on tape.


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## rae3988 (Jan 22, 2008)

Just added the salts..they sank to the bottom, he's not going for them. shaking worse than ever....


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## rae3988 (Jan 22, 2008)

put in the epsom salts, just tested the PH (it was the only liquid testing kit available, I hate small towns) and it's exactly 7.0
He's still swimming/shaking quite a bit, if not just as bad..worse


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Unfortunately, there isn't a whole lot more to do for him. The shaking you're describing almost sounds as if it's a neurological problem, and for that there is no cure. I watched both of the videos you posted, and it was very obvious to me about the swim bladder problem. I have been keeping and caring for goldfish for over 10 yrs, and with the store situation, I saw this quite often. Knowing the pH in the water is important, but at this point, knowing the ammonia, nitrite, & nitrate is going to be vital along with pH. The nitrogen cycle is something we can't prevent unless we change 100% of the water every day, and even then there will be ammonia levels at some point because the fish puts out waste. An uncycled tank can't break down the ammonia, preventing it from hurting the fish.
Ammonia and nitrites can cause a lot of damage, especially in something as delicate as a fancy goldfish. Ammonia can burn skin, burn gills, and even affect the spinal column and brain. Once this damage is done, most of it can't be undone. 
About the only thing anyone can do now is to wait, let the salts have a chance to help. Once the swim bladder distress has been relieved, we can then take a look at any symptoms that may remain, and possible causes. You can do a 50% water change daily, this will help. Keep the water room temperature, so as not to cause shock to the fish's system. If the water sits in the room for 1 hr it is typically safe to use. With each water change, attempt again to feed a few pieces of the epsom salts to the fish. Try doing it one pebble at a time, choosing those small enough for him to fit into his mouth. Add 1/2 teaspoon of epsom salts with each 50% water change. This will keep the salt levels steady and the water clean at the same time. 
I wish you and your fish the best of luck, but please try to remember... this fish is a very young baby, and the stresses involved in moving from breeder to store to home can be just more than they can handle at that size. The small tank won't make things any easier for you or for him. He's weak, and he has some very serious problems. There is still some hope yet, don't give up. Keep up the treatment and cleaning schedule, and make sure his food sinks for him. Try feeding 1 pellet at a time, and if he doesn't eat it after a minute or 2, scoop it out and try again. This is going to take some time and careful attention for him to have a chance to survive... but he does still have a chance.


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## rae3988 (Jan 22, 2008)

I sank a pellet of food and he's been pretty preoccupied with trying to stay down there and trying to eat it (which has at least solidified the swim bladder theory/reality)


Besides feeding sinking foods, is there anything else I could do/any idea of how long this could take? If I just changed 100% of the water yesterday because I switched tanks, should I still change another 50% or do less or not at all (because of bacterias)

The epsom salts that I have are fairly finely ground, and he pretty much just ignored it altogether. He's been fixated on this single sunken pellet for at least 10-15 minutes now...having trouble breaking it up, I think..but he's persistent and continually trying.

(and by the way, thank you for all this help, I seriously appreciate it)

also, if this is caused/worsened by 'airgulping' when he ate his food, should I be concerned about him going to the top and taking air/"swallowing" airbubbles caused by the filter?


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

rae3988 said:


> I sank a pellet of food and he's been pretty preoccupied with trying to stay down there and trying to eat it (which has at least solidified the swim bladder theory/reality)
> 
> 
> Besides feeding sinking foods, is there anything else I could do/any idea of how long this could take? If I just changed 100% of the water yesterday because I switched tanks, should I still change another 50% or do less or not at all (because of bacterias)
> ...



Anytime a fancy goldfish is gulping air from the surface there is reason for concern. Typically they do this when there isn't enough oxygen in the water and when ammonia levels begin to rise. If you cnaged 100% of his water when you moved him, it is very likely that his entire system has gone through a phase of shock from the drasitc change in conditions. Most fish can adjust to slow and gradual changes, but fast ones are usually deadly. Because this new tank is uncycled and he is struggling, and the change that was made was so drastic, yes, the 50% every day will help a lot. When you do this don't clean the gravel or filter media, just take water from the top and replace it with room temp water that is cleaned and dosed properly with water conditioner. If you can find epsom salts that are a bit larger, that may help get him to eat a few. Also, even for food, if you can find decorations up high for the food to fall on, he won't have such a struggle to get to it and maintain his place while eating it. 
I'll do what I can to help you through this, but I make no promises to his chances of survival or recovery. It still sounds to me like he suffered some type of shock that affected the central nervous system, and for that there is no treatment. If things get too bad with something like that I will usually suggest euthenasia because it's the most humane thing to do. Keep trying. Diligence, persistance, love... they go a long way!


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## rae3988 (Jan 22, 2008)

His shaking has drastically diminished...but now he's a lot quieter overall. About 80% of the time it seems "back to normal" and the other 20% is split between occasional shakes and periods of very quiet.

He stays near the bottom a lot more, but he's not struggling to stay down.

Just making sure, so I should do the 50% change today (24 hours after the total change)?
I can't believe I was stupid enough to do a total change...

I'm watching him a lot of the time I'm in my room (and haven't done any work) and worry/think about him when I'm not here...I'm nervous that things are going to seem worse at night, again. Could that part (how things seem worse or weirder at night) be mostly my imagination/exhaustion talking? 

He's not doing the up/down thing like crazy anymore...he definitely seems significantly more relaxed.

Also, he's starting to look somewhat bloated and I haven't seen him poop (excuse crudeness) in a while...when I was reading elsewhere online, it said it was likely he was also constipated and I should fast him for four days or so...

good idea/bad idea?


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

The amount of attention that constipation in fish gets really concerns me. I won't say it isn't possible because it is, but the number of cases I see posted mentioning constipated fish really is way over the limit. 
Bloating can be caused by a number of problems, constipation just one and usually not a common problem. Fish also get gas bubbles, and numerous other ailments that can contribute to bloating.
Most fish I have heard discussed as being constipated were fish that have been sick for a period of time, and appetite is down. I am marveled at the number of souls who don't add 1 + 1 and get 2. If a fish hasn't eaten a normal amount of food, or any food due to illness... what is there to be "backed up" as constipation would indicate? A fish's digestrive tract works basically the same way as ours does, so a decrease in food should also expect a decrease in waste produced. 
With your fish, it didn't look like it was much able to eat over the past couple of days, so I wouldn't expect to see much for solid waste. The salt should also help to dispell the bloating, so keep up the schedule with 50% water changes and 1/2 teaspoon of epsom salts for a few more days and watch for improvement. To purposely starve the fish at this point could turn things right back around to a life/death struggle. Nutritious food is needed for the immune system to work properly, and a starved, weak fish isn't going to heal the way a well fed and strong one will.
Keep me posted and let me know if you need any further help. Try not to be paranoid, as hard as that may be. You're doing everything you can to help him now, he just needs time for the salt to work and healing to begin.


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## rae3988 (Jan 22, 2008)

"I am marveled at the number of souls who don't add 1 + 1 and get 2."

Haha. Actually, he ate perfectly normally/just as eagerly as ever despite all the other conditons. It only took him a while to eat the pellets because they weren't breaking apart so easily, but he was munching on them sufficiently.

I'll do the 50% change now...actually, another question: I've been using spring water (from a bottle) and even when I leave it out to adjust to room temp, it's very cold. Should I just put it in a microwave or something?


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## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

If you're worried about his digestive system you could also try feeding him a pea or something like that. A little vegetable matter can do a lot of good and keeping his diet varied and interesting will be good for him. Just make sure you remove any uneaten parts so that it doesn't create further waste problems in the tank.


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## rae3988 (Jan 22, 2008)

Alright, so I did the 50% water change....
....and he'st starting to act shaky and strange again. I tested the water, it's pefect all around, and I did the BEST I could to keep the same temperature but somehow it's colder (and I'm furious, I spent forever trying to work that out).

What can I do to prevent this water weirdness, and should I be worried that it's coming back? (Yes, I added the 1/2 tspn epsom salts)


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

I'm starting to think this is more than just a temp issue. Can you tell me the temp difference between the new water and the tank water?
Can you also tell me the pH reading for each of those? What kind of gravel do you have in the tank? Decorations... anything like seashells or anything that was once alive or had an animal living in it?

This is the hardest part of helping online. If I could see the fish I could tell you what is wrong and what to do... but to do it long distance like this.. you'll have to be my eyes and such on that end as best you can.

Please be patient, we're doing all we can to help. Sometimes just like a Dr has to run tests on us, we have to run tests to diagnose a problem with an animal. 

Please do not warm the water in the microwave. This is horribly dangerous. How long are you letting the water sit and how far from the tank? You can wrap a towel around the bottle of water to help insulate it, but that would be about the only easy solution I can think of other than maybe moving it to another room where the temp is warmer. There isn't a heater in the tank, is there? We'll sort it out, sometimes its just not so easy. Hang in there, and pay attention to what he seems to respond to in a positive way. Those things will tell us as much as the negative!


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## rae3988 (Jan 22, 2008)

The water warmed up to "normal" by the end of the night last night, but now it's cold again (in the tank, that is, I had to take the lid off of the tank so it adjusted more to room temp...)

The pH reading was exactly 7.0. I have some decorations/blue gravel but nothing that was once alive or that had animals living in it 

The videos I'd posted a while back might help you see what the tank looks like....

And if I'd already warmed the water in the microwave, should I be panicking? I'd let the water sit out for hours (almost all day) and even put lights on the sides around the container (not the tank, the replacement water) but it remained cold. About the coldness: my room is moderately cold, so the water adjusts to just about as cold as the room, but when it was in the tank it did somehow manage to be a bit warmer. The temp. gague is broken, but I'm getting another one today.

He's definitely a lot quieter today, I sank his food and he's eating with as much enthusiasm as ever. He is still swimming around the tank but definitely a lot quieter.

I'm really worried about this microwave mistake, now...I don't mean to sound impatient, I'm just worried that I keep doing stupid things. As for the positive things, I think/thought the less shaking and still eating were pretty good things, I THINK he may have eaten a single thing of epsom salt, but I couldn't tell. I don't really know what else to comment on for the positive; he's still active, eating well, I haven't seen him listless or abnormally quiet, the shaking thing just looks almost as if he was cold as he swims (but it's not constant, its only sometimes)


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## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

I wouldn't worry too much about the cold water thing, but can I ask what you mean by "normal" temperature? Goldfish are meant to live in cold water, under 70º is perfectly healthy for these fish. Is it possible that the light on top of your tank is heating the water up, or that there is a heater in the tank? If you could find out the exact temperature of the tank it would be helpful. But let me stress that cold really shouldn't be the problem with a goldfish!


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Okiemavis, cold in itself isn't what we're concerned about. The temp issue, and the reason I asked for the temp of both the standing water and the tank just before adding the clean water is because of temp fluctuation. 
While it is true that a goldfish does best between 65 - 68 degrees, if the water in the tank is 75 and you add water that is 65, it creates a cold pocket that the fish swim through, and this rapid, drastic change in temp is what is so dangerous. A fish's body can't handle such a rapid change in temperature. Fortunately goldfish tend to be a little sturdier than some of their tropical cousins, but the end result can still be the same if the changes are too rapid, to drastic, or too often. 
Water that changes temp of more than 1 - 2 degrees in the course of the day can be enough to make any fish sick. It is highly likely that the light over the tank is warming the water, and if it were mine, I'd simply turn it off and leave it off. 

After reading this entire thread again and reviewing the videos again, it seems to me that this fish is still likely suffering from damage to the nervous system, in which case there is nothing to be done for it. Continue the epsom salt treatments and water changes for about 2 more days, then stop adding salts and back the water changes to 25% daily. 

Knowing the pH in the tank is one thing... the reason I asked for pH reading in both water sources is because I'd like to compare to see if this also is different enough to be causing harm. Here again we are dealing with drastic changes, and the effects of a rapid pH drop are similar to that of the shock from drastic temp change. Without a reading on both water sources, there is no way to determine what else may be causing a problem, or how to fix it if it is. 

I promise I don't ask questions just for the sake of asking... I'm not a nosey person by any means. I am asking because I am in the position of a Dr trying to diagnose an illness before something really bad happens. I understand what all of the answers to these questions mean when they are put together. There is a balance I am looking for, and at times like this, just the slightest thing may be off and that is all it would take to cause such a severe problem. With answers to the questions I ask, I am able then to judge how the answers relate to each other. Just like I was able to watch that first video and diagnose the swim bladder problem instantly. I have been doing this for a living for over 10 yrs now, I have studied under some of the top people in the fish industry/hobby, and my husband is an aquatic biologist. Teaching about fish care and health issues, nutrition, etc... this is my career, and most of my training has been hands on. I come here to help because I, unlike most professionals in this industry, have the time to devote, the concern for the animals, and am not concerned with making my living with it... I have a living made other ways. (and yes, those other ways are still in this industry) I have spent enough years in pet stores to know that the majority of employees in a LFS don't know squat about fish or their environment. The fact that someone sold a goldfish for a 2.5 gallon tank (which was an upgrade from it's original home) says it all right there. LFS's don't make enough money to pay the kinds of wages it would take to staff all experts. The store where I worked had their way around it. They wanted a staff of experts, so they forced us to train and become experts in order to work there. I lived on $6.50/hr for over 6 yrs, because I was an expert and the job just doesn't pay. Some of us with the training & formal education have also learned a deep passion for what we do, and in understanding that not nearly enough people do what we do, we make sacrafices of our own for the greater good.
If you could please post those pH levels and temps for me, I can then help further. Don't worry about the microwaved water at this point, there isn't anything that can be done about it now.... you just don't want to do it again. Sometimes it takes a long time to learn all of the things needed to raise a happy, healthy fish... be patient with yourself and let us help! I know you don't know me personally, but I'm sure a lot of others here on the board can vouch for me... I know what I'm doing and talking about, and my only desire is to save your fish and see it properly cared for. This board is here anytime you need help, and we are always glad to help. 
The fish sounds as if its on the road to recovery, so give it time, watch it carefully, and helps us to help you with figuring out what else is going on in there that still needs fixing. 
The #1 lesson in fish keeping.... *patience*.


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## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

Agree completely with you bettababy! It's really helpful having someone with your knowledge always happy to help, I've definitely learned a lot from reading your posts.

In rereading my earlier comment, I realized how unclear it was. What I meant to express was that the water in the tank should be cold, rae seemed worried that the tank water was too cold at room temperature.



> The water warmed up to "normal" by the end of the night last night, but now it's cold again (in the tank, that is, I had to take the lid off of the tank so it adjusted more to room temp...)


Hopefully the light was the source of the heat, and that leaving it off will keep the tank temperature down. I really hope this goldfish does well!


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## rae3988 (Jan 22, 2008)

Believe me, I know you're not asking questions for the sake of doing so...you could ask what type of laundry detergent I use and I would not question your approach. You're pretty much my savior right now.

Current tank water pH: 7.0
Water to go into the tank(new water) pH: Weird, 7.0 also, yesterday it was more like 6 or 6.2

As for temperatures, I still haven't gotten a thermometer, but the new tank water is sitting under a lamp/surrounded by towels. I keep feeling both water temps to see the differences to the best I can,but it's a guesstimation. Would it be better to wait to get a thermo. and know exactly or to do the best I can by guessing? (I would go get a new therm. now but I have class really soon)


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## rae3988 (Jan 22, 2008)

This just in:

Tank water: 74/76
Other water: 68/70?

I think the filter was warming up the water....


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## rae3988 (Jan 22, 2008)

Alright, this just in:

Changed 50% of the water, the new temp matched the current temp (74) and the pH is 7.0--tested three times. Put epsom salts in--he actually ate a bunch.

New video:
http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a197/rae3988/?action=view&current=secondsemest006-1.flv
http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a197/rae3988/?action=view&current=secondsemest007-1.flv

(Don't bother with the sound...and if you do, sorry, my housemates were listening to bad music and having a mini-party.)

Throughout most of today he's seemed a LOT better and calmer in a good way, but I always get nervous/think he's shaking more when I change the water. 

As you said, I'm remaining patient (even if it doesn't seem like it) and doing the best I can and loving him. If there was nervous system damage, is it still possible for him to live a (moderately?) long life as long as I continue to care for him to the best of my ability?


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## rae3988 (Jan 22, 2008)

He's hardly swimming aroudn at all now. He still ate everything enthusiastically, but he hardly moves.

Correction:

I had a smalllamp on and some light from the window that keeps my room decently bright (but no direct sunlight on) when I wrote that...I turned on the overhead light and he starts moving around more, almost just like normal.


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

[quote="
know you don't know me personally, but I'm sure a lot of others here on the board can vouch for me... I know what I'm doing and talking about, and my only desire is to save your fish and see it properly cared for. This board is here anytime you need help, and we are always glad to help. 
quote]
totally agree.  rae3988,you are in great hands.


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## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

How's the goldfish doing now?


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## rae3988 (Jan 22, 2008)

I'm reviving this post only because I have a question that is relevant to earlier parts of this post---
the fish is doing quite well, but I'm noticing that he tends to swim downward and then float back up (and repeat) leading me to believe he's not completely done with the swim bladder issue. I have been giving him some epsom salts but he won't eat it--and if he does, he spits it back out. 

Anything else I should do? It doesn't seem to be as big/bad as before, I'm just trying to make sure I prevent it from getting any worse. I'm still sinking all of his food (and to update I now have a 10 gallon tank for him).

Suggestions?


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## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

Try fasting him for 2 days, and then feeding him a pea (take a frozen one, soak it in warm water to thaw, and then take it out of it's little skin). Swim bladder problems are not really something with a specific cure. I does sound like it's getting better though, so I would just continue to monitor it, to make sure it's still going in the right direction, and give it time.


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