# New here - cycling a 55 - duh



## Timjwilson (Dec 13, 2012)

Hi folks;

At the ripe age of 61, I've suddenly got sucked back into setting up an aquarium after observing my nephew getting one up and running.

The last aquarium I had was in 1969 but prior to that I maintained approximately 30 aquariums of all sizes and shapes. I had a few wild crafted tanks which supported pond life and had some mosquitos and dragonflies emerging in the basement. I even managed to keep some Dollie Vardin trout alive in a 75 gallon tank co-habitating with tropicals for 4 years.

I was blown away by all the new intracacies involved in keeping a 'modern' aquarium after listening to my nephew and looking through his supplies. The biggest change (to me) is all the water changes called for. I started reading on the Internet and discovered that some people rearing young Discus and Angels changed up to 90% of their water daily....holy macaroni! I never changed my water unless there was a problem. My father who also kept fish did the same. 

I never did rear any Discus but I did raise some awesome silver veil-tailed Angels. I know that not everyone changes their water this much but I think 15 to 25% minimum once per week is the norm.

I decided to get a used 55 gal and try doing it the old fashioned way by planting it with lots of plants and go for a biologically balanced tank. A used filter came with the aquarium which is a Marineland Emperor 400. It is pretty similar to the ones I used years ago but has wheels which are meant to be populated by bacteria. I decided to not use charcoal since I was using lots of plants. I was going to put pumice in the filter to harbor bacteria but they only had the reddish stuff at Rona and I was not sure if it was dyed so I bought a box of those ceramic ring things. I put some folded 75 micron silk screen into the plastic holders that slide into the filter to collect some particulate matter.

I plan on making a refugium, living filter in a month or so.

Now, my area of expertise, presently, is multiplying soil microbes for use in nature gardening ( www.microbeorganics.com ) and I was tempted to incorporate some of them directly into the aquarium, however I was scared off by the literature and dire warnings on the Internet about keeping fish. My instinct was to just plant the tank and put in fish like I always did. I'm planning on getting discus babies so I talked myself into this cycling thing. In retrospect after reading Byron, who makes tons of sense, I should have followed my gut...too late. (to follow)

I almost choked when I saw the price of aquarium gravel so I got enough pea gravel and sand and washed and boiled it. I mixed in sphagnum peatmoss with the sand and put it in, rooted the plants into it and covered with 2 or 3 inches of pea gravel then put in the water. My pH is 6.8, teperature 80F.

Now back to my error. I figured that I had to cycle the tank to be thoroughly up with the latest info so I checked the ammonia at zero yesterday and thought not good (I also inoculated with Seachem Stability bacterial spores) Just about 2 hours ago I put in some (1/2 teaspoon) crushed fish food to try to get an ammonia reading and there is where I probably erred. Tonight I'll probably put in more Stability and take all readings tomorrow.

The plants I used; Vallisneria spiralis, Rotala indica, Cryptocoryne affinis, Vallisneria americana gigantea, Wisteria, Java Fern, some Duckweed and some unknowns.

Fish plan; I have put a depost on ten, 1 inch discus which I'm supposed to pick up on the 22nd and I planned on some Malasian snails, Cory cats, (maybe cherry shrimp) and a couple Bristlenose about 5 to 7 days prior to the discus.

Have I screwed up putting in the fish food? Any suggestions regarding the fish and whole set up gratefully received.

Tim


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## lakemalawifish (Nov 24, 2012)

Tim, what a pleasure to read your posting! You are definitely a person I would love to add to my list of people to just sit and listen to the many stores you have to tell! Looking forward to hearing more about your current set up and hopefully seeing some pics. As far as your question... I will leave that up to the experts around here, you already know who they are


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

welcome and it sound like you are on your way.

I use a substrate with 1" peat moss,1" play sand, and 1" pc select. (kinda like your method. LOL)

and heavily plant my tanks. I like your plants but would add some anacharis as well.

I then let the plants condition the tank for a week and add a few fish and not feed the second week. then load up and start very light feeding.

I do not recommend any chemical additives. I just use the plants.

no filters, no mechanical circulation, no water changes and just let the fish and plants blanace out and maintain the system.

Sounds more familiar like '69 methods? :lol:

my .02


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## TitanTDH (Sep 21, 2012)

Hey mate and welcome, also it sounds like you have a wealth of knowledge already. Cant wait to hear some of the stories. There is a 4 part sticky in the aquarium plants section that might give you some further info, but I wouldn't expect to see a cycle occur with the plants. As they will most probably assimilate the ammonia before you will get a reading.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Timjwilson (Dec 13, 2012)

Thanks All! I'll see if I can locate some Anacharis and yes it does sound more like what I had in mind.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Hello Tim, and welcome to Tropical Fish Keeping forum.:wave:

I see you are in Chilliwack, which is not that far from me; I am actually in Pitt Meadows though I use Vancouver here as few if any would know where PM is. Before I forget, if you would like to drop round some time to chat and see my tanks, feel free to PM me. Or if you want some free plants, as I am throwing out a handful or more every week.

To your situation. And my first caution is on the substrate, particularly as you intend Discus. These fish must have stability, and using the substrate mix you mention is likely to be quite the opposite at least for a few months. I won't bog this post down with more at this time.

Second point is cycling. You have live plants, and some are fast growing, so you can forget about cycling. The plants will take up any ammonia the fish can produce from day 1.

We have had a couple of threads recently with heated debates over water changes, but I hope that is behind us, so I will venture to suggest you read my article on water changes in the Freshwater Article section; this will explain our current understanding which is certainly different from what it was 40 years ago:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-articles/regular-partial-water-changes-117205/

And by the way, I have you beat by a year, as I'm 62. Proof that an old dog can learn new tricks.;-)

Last comments on the discus. Temp should be no less than 82F. But be careful with other fish as many cannot tolerate this long-term. Corys were mentioned, and there are a couple species that manage with discus, Corydoras sterbai and Corydoras leucomelas come to mind at the moment. And you noticed how the names shaded; that means they are in our profiles, so you can click the name for a pop-up of the profile with info on the species. I would suggest you not be so quick in adding the discus though, with that substrate.

Hope this is helpful.

Byron.


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## Timjwilson (Dec 13, 2012)

Hey Byron;

Thanks for the input. Unfortunately I've already paid for the discus and got the challenge into my head. They are not that big an investment at $6 each and they have a head start on poor conditions so it may be likely that my tank will be like returning to the tanic waters of the Amazon.

[I almost used pond mud in my substrate. I've got a 45,000 gallon pond]

I reckon I'll look at it as rescuing them from a puppy mill and if they thrive, I'll be happy..If they don't I'll learn a lesson. Do you know why they are more delicate than Angels?

I'll try to take you up on viewing your aquariums. I don't know if I could stuff another plant into that tank but I've already got my eye on a 120.

Have you seen this video? 10 water changes in 6 years (I think)





 
Very cool filter. I'm building a rough copy.

You might like some of the videos on my webpage.

Something else I wonder about. In the soil, there are two primary organisms responsible for the mineralization of nutrients so they are bioavailable to plants. They are protozoa (flagellate & naked amoebae) and nematodes. When they eat bacteria/archaea nutrients are ionized. I wonder if there are similar organisms in the water. Rotifers? Aquatic flagellates?

Tim


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## Timjwilson (Dec 13, 2012)

PS. Those are my two favourite Cory cats. I have not seen them around.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

The store person in the video says he does 30% water changes every week. I always recommend 1/3 to 1/2 the tank, which is about 30% to 50% weekly. So that is not a problem. And as he said, the more you can do the better. No argument on any of that.

I can't adequately answer your last question because it is something I have never had need to research. And I am not a microbiologist.

I have both of those corys, along with several other species, in my 115g Amazon riverscape. My C. sterbai do spawn, though no fry have yet survived. I had a couple C. gossei fry survive but sadly lost them during a protozoan outbreak from new fish. And I have C. duplicareus fry now and then, I do have one of those which is almost the size of the parents now; he was in the canister filter one time when I was cleaning it, and I put him in the 10g to gain some size before moving him back to the main tank. Fry surviving in my main tank is rare because of the other fish. I have three Centromochlus perugiae which are strictly nocturnal and will eat anything that fits into their mouths, so they tend to get fry at night.

On angelfish and discus, it may just be "the way it is." This is found in other species too. For example, the two "ram" species being Mikrogeophagus ramirezi and Mikrogeophagus altispinosus are both sensitive to water conditions (by which I mean nitrates, instability, etc) but M. ramirezi is far more sensitive when it comes to parameters. And even though this fish has decades of tank breeding now, it has not lost this physiological characteristic, which is further evidence of how fish do not adapt as much as some would like to believe.

Which reminds me of some comments in the video on pH. He mentions no higher than 7 for discus, ranging from 5.5 to 7, and his discus have no issues (apparent to him) with the pH fluctuating. One always has to be careful with such statements. First, the TDS/GH combo (total dissolved solids and general hardness which is part of the TDS) is of far greater significance to soft water fish, as my recent article on Total Solids noted. No mention is made of TDS or GH in the video. Second, we have no idea of the time period for these fluctuations. Some of our members will tell you that they maintain discus in basic water with the pH in the high 7's; this may not be preferred by the fish, but that is something different.

I will check your videos when I have opportunity on the weekend.

Byron.


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## Timjwilson (Dec 13, 2012)

If you watch the video through you'll see he says you should do 30% water changes but he has not on that aquarium due to the filter used,


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## ChuckinMA (Nov 28, 2012)

Welcome back - I'm in a similar situation with a long hiatus between tanks. It seems to me there is so much more known today about the chemistry of tropical fishing keeping than there was in the 70's. Despite the ignornance, I did have some good breeding successes. Keeping Discus alive more than a couple of months was considered the holy grail! I was never so fortunate.

With all the tools available today, I'm looking forward to expanding with a 75g here within a month or so. This forum is a great source for the planning stage.


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## Timjwilson (Dec 13, 2012)

Well the tank seems to have stabilized, beginning wise with a pH range of 7.2 to 7.3 which will likely lower with time as the substrate/plants mature. I am going to add a few rocks today to create some hiding spots for cats and anchor for Java ferns. I could not locate the ideal Cory cats so am picking up 6 Julii tomorrow along with 3 Bristlenose.

As I posted in another thread, I'd like to add some wood, which I've never done and am in foreign waters regarding selection and procedure.

Next Saturday I pick up the 10 baby discus and hope they thrive.

We raise composting worms for our farm so I'm going to try my hand at raising some white worms 
_(Enchytraeus albidus)_ and some California blackworms. I could probably feed the larger worms but chopping them up could prove messy.
 
Any comments/advice welcome.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Timjwilson said:


> Well the tank seems to have stabilized, beginning wise with a pH range of 7.2 to 7.3 which will likely lower with time as the substrate/plants mature. I am going to add a few rocks today to create some hiding spots for cats and anchor for Java ferns. I could not locate the ideal Cory cats so am picking up 6 Julii tomorrow along with 3 Bristlenose.
> 
> As I posted in another thread, I'd like to add some wood, which I've never done and am in foreign waters regarding selection and procedure.
> 
> ...


I must caution you on the "julii" corys. These will not manage at the warmer temperature (82F) required for discus. Most corys won't, in fact.

It is doubtful the "julii" are actually Corydoras julii, as most fish sold in stores as "julii" are in fact Corydoras trilineatus, as it mentions in the profiles (along with ways to distinguish them). But C. trilineatus also cannot last at warm temperatures.

I suggest holding off on corys until you can obtain one of the (few) species that do well in warmer water. C. sterbai is one f the best, and this one is available locally from time to time.

Byron.


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## Timjwilson (Dec 13, 2012)

Byron said:


> I must caution you on the "julii" corys. These will not manage at the warmer temperature (82F) required for discus. Most corys won't, in fact.
> 
> It is doubtful the "julii" are actually Corydoras julii, as most fish sold in stores as "julii" are in fact Corydoras trilineatus, as it mentions in the profiles (along with ways to distinguish them). But C. trilineatus also cannot last at warm temperatures.
> 
> ...


I think I got genuine Julii. Take a look https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISb0Xy4y24g 

I compromised the temperature at 81. We'll see....


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Timjwilson said:


> I think I got genuine Julii. Take a look https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISb0Xy4y24g
> 
> I compromised the temperature at 81. We'll see....


I am inclined to think those are C. trilineatus, but not confident enough to bet on it.;-) May I ask where you got them? Knowing the local stores, I will know if they might be C. julii which would have to be wild caught. These two species can be very variable.

I'm sorry, but I cannot advise keeping these guys that warm. Their physiology will weaken.


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## Timjwilson (Dec 13, 2012)

Byron said:


> I am inclined to think those are C. trilineatus, but not confident enough to bet on it.;-) May I ask where you got them? Knowing the local stores, I will know if they might be C. julii which would have to be wild caught. These two species can be very variable.
> 
> I'm sorry, but I cannot advise keeping these guys that warm. Their physiology will weaken.


I bought them privately and yes they were wild caught. I discovered this after loading them into the car. The person I got them from said he has kept them warmer than that, however I have in mind to lower the temp a couple of degrees after(if) the discuss put on some size. 

I realize this is against the current discus dogma.


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## Timjwilson (Dec 13, 2012)

Well, I've got the discus home and they will be lucky to survive. I checked the pH of the bag water at 3.6. This is of almost fermentive numbers and can be indicative of high fungi volume. I had no choice but to put them into my 7.1 pH water.

My O2 is at 7.2 and I'm going to aerate for a little while with the thought that extra O2 may help them recover. If this is wrong....let me know.

Tim


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Most all fish, not just discus, can't tolerate extreme abrupt changes in pH, TDS/GH, or temperature. So acclimate them slowly, using the drip method or mixing the water slowly.


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## Timjwilson (Dec 13, 2012)

Any opinion on the O2 level and aeration?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Timjwilson said:


> Any opinion on the O2 level and aeration?


Probably a good idea. If you read my articles on hardness/pH, TDS, and stress,in each is mentioned the effect these have on fish and how oxygen is related.


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## Timjwilson (Dec 13, 2012)

Byron said:


> Probably a good idea. If you read my articles on hardness/pH, TDS, and stress,in each is mentioned the effect these have on fish and how oxygen is related.


Do you folks measure your dissolved oxygen as I do? It seems quite important to me. Is there a good level in general? I have searched but really found no information using my search terms. (eg. I keep my pond at about 10 PPM DO2 so the microbes use up the duck poo.)

I do realize that water TDS is interrelated with DO2 but I'm also aware that extra aeration can drive the pH up.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Timjwilson said:


> Do you folks measure your dissolved oxygen as I do? It seems quite important to me. Is there a good level in general? I have searched but really found no information using my search terms. (eg. I keep my pond at about 10 PPM DO2 so the microbes use up the duck poo.)
> 
> I do realize that water TDS is interrelated with DO2 but I'm also aware that extra aeration can drive the pH up.


I have never fussed over oxygen. I can't remember which source said it, but the point was that you will never had an oxygen deficiency provided things are within balance. Overstocking, no water changes, overfeeding can all contribute to this. And of course other factors like temperature, live plants, etc.

Aeration if it caused more CO2 to be driven out might affect the pH.

Byron.


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## Timjwilson (Dec 13, 2012)

*Garlic?*



Timjwilson said:


> Well, I've got the discus home and they will be lucky to survive. I checked the pH of the bag water at 3.6. This is of almost fermentive numbers and can be indicative of high fungi volume. I had no choice but to put them into my 7.1 pH water.
> 
> My O2 is at 7.2 and I'm going to aerate for a little while with the thought that extra O2 may help them recover. If this is wrong....let me know.
> 
> Tim


Well miraculously the discus are still living and have begun showing an interest in food albiet not much. 9 of them have lightened in color which I understand is a good sign.

I've been feeding them the Tetra color, as that is what the breeder fed but got them started on freeze dried blackworms today. I also bought some Omega One small pellet food today which is supposed to be for marine fish and consists of whole herring, salmon, cod, shrimp, kril and *garlic* along with all the usual. I read that garlic was good for discus, especially for getting them eating. 

*If there is anything wrong with feeding this please speak up.*

Also, I noticed that the algae wafers for plecostomus consist of mostly alfalfa meal and kelp meal. I have lots of this. Can I just feed this?


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## Timjwilson (Dec 13, 2012)

I forgot. I have a wild hypothesis. Since it is virtually impossible that the pH of the breeder's tank was 3.6 and still have fish which were not pickled, I wonder if it was a temporary situation brought on by the 10 fish themselves all crowded into a one half gallon bag of water. They would have been 'fearful' and 'stressed' and perhaps discus have some sort of secretory system wherefrom they excrete acid exudates. It is not beyond the realm of possibilities, since parents emit epidermal food for the youngsters. It could be a reaction or even a defense mechanism to make themselves unsavory.

It could even be released in their waste.

Plants and microorganisms excrete an acid similar to citric acid.

I tried researching this in the biology world and although I was surprised at the number of discus studies and papers, this perspective was not amongst them. It might make a good study subject.

Comments?


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## Timjwilson (Dec 13, 2012)

Edit: I did raise the dissolved oxygen from 7.1 to 7.5 PPM, first with a stone but now a foam airlift filter.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Timjwilson said:


> I forgot. I have a wild hypothesis. Since it is virtually impossible that the pH of the breeder's tank was 3.6 and still have fish which were not pickled, I wonder if it was a temporary situation brought on by the 10 fish themselves all crowded into a one half gallon bag of water. They would have been 'fearful' and 'stressed' and perhaps discus have some sort of secretory system wherefrom they excrete acid exudates. It is not beyond the realm of possibilities, since parents emit epidermal food for the youngsters. It could be a reaction or even a defense mechanism to make themselves unsavory.
> 
> It could even be released in their waste.
> 
> ...


I suspect the low pH in the bag was produced for shipping via R/O water and tap, or with buffering agent's to prevent the ammonia from respiration,waste,from affecting the ten fish in small bag in negative fashion. (specualting).


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Timjwilson said:


> Do you folks measure your dissolved oxygen as I do? It seems quite important to me. Is there a good level in general? I have searched but really found no information using my search terms. (eg. I keep my pond at about 10 PPM DO2 so the microbes use up the duck poo.)
> 
> I do realize that water TDS is interrelated with DO2 but I'm also aware that extra aeration can drive the pH up.


Is said, fishes will do poorly with DO level's below 5ppm.(will begin exhibiting effect's ).
Would ,were it me,,want level's near 5ppm at elevated temp's Discus thrive in.
With lot's of plant's,,I should think this would not be an issue for the plant's will produce enough O2 during the day,to hold the fishes over during the evening when plant's consume the O2.
Higher temp's = less dissolved O2 as I' sure you know, and Byron touched on other thing's to consider that can work to deplete O2.


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

I suspect the low pH in the bag was due to the reasons you listed.

With a major input from very high carbon dioxide levels.


FWIW when I introduce new fish I skip a day or two of feeding while the fish get used to the new setting.

But that's just my .02


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## Timjwilson (Dec 13, 2012)

Thanks for the input. Good point Bealsbob on the high CO2. I should have added that to my list. The breeder says he did not add anything to the bag water, nor the tank water.

I raise aerobic microorganisms in a bioreactor by keeping the dissolved oxygen at 6 PPM or greater. I'm unsure as of yet what the ideal is for most freshwater warm water aquarium fish but have read that most cold water fish thrive at 7> PPM.


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## Canadian Fish (Feb 12, 2012)

So how are the discus doing? I'm curious, I have never seen them raised from that small before. Interesting because the price is right, they are so expensive full grown.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

I would be surprised if one inch Discus thrive, for at this size,,they are barely weaned from parent's slime coat.
If they do indeed feed from prepared food's,then to achieve good development,,they will need several small feeding's each day.
This is the reason most who raise these fish perform the frequent water changes,to keep organic waste from polluting the tank.


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## Timjwilson (Dec 13, 2012)

They are still hanging in. One of them is remaining very dark and another darkish which is apparently a bad sign. They seem to be moody fidh, if indeed one can give fish such attributes. Sometimes they are eager to feed, while other times they seem disinterested and just pick slowly at the food. 

I have a feeling that fluctuations in temperature would be ideal for these fish and perhaps all tropical fish but I have not figured out how to pull this off yet. 

The water parameters of the aquarium remain good. I used the funny little Hagen test kit combined with the TDS, pH and O2 meters I use for my work.

Using the reagent kit, I checked for calcium, phosphates (phosphorus) and iron. It showed very neglegable calcium, zero phosphorus and zero iron (chelated & non-chelated). I'm a little concerned at the lack of iron, however I suspect it will increase gradually as my microbial hierarchy establishes.

I think I've got to get busy working on a plant based refugium. I've got a bunch of water at room temperature on hand in case. I'm fortunate in that my city adds no chemicals at all to the water.

I'm not sure at all if the discus will thrive. Time will tell.


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## Timjwilson (Dec 13, 2012)

8 of my 10 original discus miraculously remain living. As stated, I have been doing small water changes to try keeping ahead of the nitrates, an average of 8% per day done every second day.

I'm feeding them only the Tetra Color particles, as that seems what they like best. About 5 times a day.

To my chagrin I continue to get nitrate readings of at least 10 ppm, with the exception of this morning after shutting down the emperor biowheel filter yesterday evening for a few hours. 

I was first able to reduce the nitrates when they seemed almost 40 ppm (stupid objective reagant test kit) and one of my discus died, by removing the slide in mesh dealies filled with filter wool and filling up the filter with lava rock. There were already some ceramic rings. My idea was that this may encourage some anaerobes to gas off the nitrates.

Prior to this I had added lots of hornwort and I was surprised to still have nitrates after that.

My idea with shutting down the hob filter was to stop aerating it and give it a chance to develop anaerobic bacteria/archaea. I do not know if this was what had the limited effect but I shut it down again for a while today.

Any ideas, observations?


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## Timjwilson (Dec 13, 2012)

My nitrates are now remaining around 5 PPM and half of my remaining discus are growing nicely. I don't think I'll ever know whether the ones that are not growing as much were runts from the beginning.

I have been continuing with periodic water changes, averaging at least twice per week and 14%. I always expected my pH to lower over time because I used a mix of cleaned sand and screened sphagnum peatmoss under my gravel (pea gravel) as a rooting medium for my plants and have low KH. However, the pH has gone as low as 5.7 but when I do a water change (with 7.2 water) of 14% it swings it right up to 6.4. [6.4 is where I expected it to stabalize]

I'm thinking this yoyo action cannot be that good. I'm wondering if I should try to buffer this somehow like with coral in the filter (or somewhere) or should I just let her drop to where she stabalizes. I read in the guide that discus are good to as low as 4.2. My bristlenose are growing like gangbusters and the Julii Cories are mating so they must like the water. (Yes they have spots not patterns)

I'd really appreciate some input on this.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Timjwilson said:


> My nitrates are now remaining around 5 PPM and half of my remaining discus are growing nicely. I don't think I'll ever know whether the ones that are not growing as much were runts from the beginning.
> 
> I have been continuing with periodic water changes, averaging at least twice per week and 14%. I always expected my pH to lower over time because I used a mix of cleaned sand and screened sphagnum peatmoss under my gravel (pea gravel) as a rooting medium for my plants and have low KH. However, the pH has gone as low as 5.7 but when I do a water change (with 7.2 water) of 14% it swings it right up to 6.4. [6.4 is where I expected it to stabalize]
> 
> ...


I would not mess with KH. For one thing, the pH is likely to rise too high; I experimented with crushed coral, aragonite and dolomite to achieve this, and the dolomite was the most successful if you can get it [there is none locally, where we live]. The other two sent the pH soaring, up to 7.6 within a couple days, yet the KH and GH barely rose, so that is not a viable option.

I never had that much of a pH change with water changes, even when I had tanks at pH 5 or lower and using 7.0 tap water. But various factors can affect this. You could do smaller but more frequent changes. As long as the pH change is not around 1 degree (such as from 5.8 to 6.8) I wouldn't worry.


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## Timjwilson (Dec 13, 2012)

Thank you Byron. What I have been doing is the small water changes and have yet to bounce a full 10 increments. Do you think it is problematic to let the pH drift as low as 4.2? I am curious about what it is doing.

My plants are quite healthy in appearance but not making huge growth spurts. Have you noticed whether fish react to plant micronutrients added?

I just added some and I'm trying to figure out the new burst of energy displayed by the fish.

In natural growing, IME, even if using sphagnum peatmoss even at at 30% the pH will stabilize at around 6.4 provided lots of compost is used.

There was a dolomite mine in my old neighborhood of Rock Creek. Mighty White Dolomite but according to this;

http://www.homegoldresourcesltd.com/projects/Dolo/Dolomite_Assessment.pdf

they may not be operating anymore.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

> Do you think it is problematic to let the pH drift as low as 4.2? I am curious about what it is doing.


Yes and no. Depends upon the fish.

Vancouver water has changed in the last decade [unlike Chilliwack's, I saw a TV report on it the other night]. Prior to 2001 they did nothing to alter the pH and the water out of the tap was near-zero GH and KH with a pH at or below 5. I let my tanks do what they wanted, and with soft water fish I had no issues. I put about 3 tablespoons of dolomite in the canister filters, and the pH in those tanks remained around the low to mid 6 range. GH and KH still basically zero. Fish thrived, plants thrived.

Now soda ash is being added to raise the pH to 7.0, and GH and KH are close to zero. My tanks remained much the same until just the last couple years, when for some reason the pH has risen to mid-6's and stays there. I no longer have the dolomite, it gave out after several years. As I said, I tried coral and argonite (separately) but the pH skyrocketed. I leave it alone.



> My plants are quite healthy in appearance but not making huge growth spurts. Have you noticed whether fish react to plant micronutrients added?
> 
> I just added some and I'm trying to figure out the new burst of energy displayed by the fish.


I've no data on this.



> In natural growing, IME, even if using sphagnum peatmoss even at at 30% the pH will stabilize at around 6.4 provided lots of compost is used.


This can be very risky in an aquatic environment like an aquarium. Peat will soften the water and lower the pH. But at some point it gives out. Other factors will play into this, and the problem here is that the fish are exposed to all of this. I don't see how it could "stabilize" unless the peat is regularly replaced.


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## Timjwilson (Dec 13, 2012)

> I don't see how it could "stabilize" unless the peat is regularly replaced.


I do not know how it works 'sub water' but in natural gardening the sphagnum peatmoss becomes part of the living soil - ecosystem and that is why it stabilizes. The reason I used it under the gravel is because I read that Diana (?) uses it in some of her mixes. [and because I've found it to be microbially active.]


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Timjwilson said:


> I do not know how it works 'sub water' but in natural gardening the sphagnum peatmoss becomes part of the living soil - ecosystem and that is why it stabilizes. The reason I used it under the gravel is because I read that Diana (?) uses it in some of her mixes. [and because I've found it to be microbially active.]


Some sources do suggest adding peat to the substrate, but it is not Diana Walstad, she says not to because the acidity of peat moss may bring heavy metals into the substrate.


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## Timjwilson (Dec 13, 2012)

Byron said:


> Some sources do suggest adding peat to the substrate, but it is not Diana Walstad, she says not to because the acidity of peat moss may bring heavy metals into the substrate.


 
I guess if this were true we might find heavy metal readings in peat bogs but I do not believe this to be the case. As stated, I'm on unsure ground regarding water plants but on terra firma I can state that many people get confused thinking that peat mixed into soil makes for an acidic environ. This only applies to gardeners applying chemical fertilizers. In natural growing, pH is controlled by microbial groups and root excretions. (very generally; bacteria > basic; fungi > acidic)


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## Timjwilson (Dec 13, 2012)

http://www.atlasbooks.com/marktplc/00388Shrimp.pdf


Here is where I got it. I guess that Diana is unaware that Miracle Grow Organic potting soil is primarily sphagnum peatmoss, sourced from either Premier (whom I do testing for) or Sungro.


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## Timjwilson (Dec 13, 2012)

*Update*

Well, I've had life and death taking place in the aquarium. I suspect that I was the cause when I decided to try feeding some frozen brine shrimp to the discus. Once thawed and floating in the water they were quite large looking. A day or so following this, all but 3 discus developed what appeared bloat (although it could have been parasitic) They had puffy white discharge. Unfortunately they succumbed. 

I've still been unable to control the nitrates at a level at or around 5 ppm (according to the tests) so continue the water changes. The pH suddenly stopped swinging so I'm able to do 28% changes every second day. The pH has stabilized around 6.2 which I think is great. I don't know what's up with the nitrates. Perhaps just needs more time. 

Does anyone know whether adding plant micronutrients contributes to nitrates or does it assist plants to uptake it?

The three survivor discus are now doing great. They are growing and playing. My jullii are doing great and laying up eggs continuously. I have at least 2 baby survivors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qpZPfbA_II 

This is very exciting. I did not expect this.


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## Timjwilson (Dec 13, 2012)

I forgot to mention that the city (Chilliwack) where I live was forced by the health department to chlorinate the water. Fortunately it is only chlorine and we are the second house from the end of the line so it is very weak at this point. We installed a household filter anyway.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

> Does anyone know whether adding plant micronutrients contributes to nitrates or does it assist plants to uptake it?


First question is, are the nitrates occurring in the source water, or in the tank?

Assuming for the moment the latter, in the tank, then a nitrate of < 5 ppm is fine. One of my tanks reads < 10 ppm. Using the API nitrate liquid test. And I have lots of plants, and do 50% weekly water changes. There is zero nitrate in my tap water.

It is possible to get nitrates at or very close to zero. More plants and fewer fish (as a balance) is the way to do this; the fewer fish, the less waste, and the more plants, the more they need ammonia/ammonium.

Adding plant fertilizer high in nitrate will obviously add nitrate. I don't know what you are using; I use Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive Supplement which has minimal nitrogen derived from ammonium and nitrate (so they say). From my experience and tests, this is not adding any detectable nitrate. If you follow the method some use of over-fertilizing the tank (the EI method, etc) you would be adding considerably more nitrate. Some of these folks aim for 20-30 ppm.

Byron.


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## Timjwilson (Dec 13, 2012)

Byron said:


> First question is, are the nitrates occurring in the source water, or in the tank?
> 
> Assuming for the moment the latter, in the tank, then a nitrate of < 5 ppm is fine. One of my tanks reads < 10 ppm. Using the API nitrate liquid test. And I have lots of plants, and do 50% weekly water changes. There is zero nitrate in my tap water.
> 
> ...


My tap water tests a zero nitrates. I've got lots of plants and 3 discus (juveniles) 2 bristlenose (2" & 3"), 5 cories and 2 (at least) babies. I do have a very large snail population.

My TDS has levelled out around 60 to 65 PPM

I also use the Seachem Flourish but maybe once every two weeks. (one cap). After actually measuring my tank, it is 45 gallons, not 55.

The nitrate test I use is from Hagen. I hate it because of the judgement required with the shades of purple/pink.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Timjwilson said:


> My tap water tests a zero nitrates. I've got lots of plants and 3 discus (juveniles) 2 bristlenose (2" & 3"), 5 cories and 2 (at least) babies. I do have a very large snail population.
> 
> My TDS has levelled out around 60 to 65 PPM
> 
> ...


This sounds fine (the numbers, I mean).


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

Welcome to TFK!

If/when you have nitrates around 5ppm or so, I call it a win. You might find value in gravel siphoning unplanted areas. Also, pea gravel seems a bit coarse to me (allowing uneaten food and waste to drop below and decay) and perhaps a finer substrate on the surface would be better. 
Also with respect to nitrogenous waste, the food quality makes a big difference (you already have this somewhat covered). Some fish foods use lower quality fish meal in their 'recipes' requiring copious amounts of starch (wheat, oat, soy, rice flours) binders and to increase crude proteins. But much of this just passes through the fish. I discovered when I switched to Omega One and Ed's Almost Natural (both use fresh, whole fish) that my fish suddenly produced less waste ... _believe it or not_.
And...it goes without mentioning to ensure your not over feeding.

Now I don't really buy into the (video) need for a sump/refugium as I'm seeing success with a simpler bio-filter...
I have two Aquaclear 70 HOB filters on my 60g. The first is a dedicated bio-filter. It uses an AC20 impeller for reduced flow. It has a thin, coarse pad and is filled to the rim with a packed mixture of Seachem Matrix and De*Nitrate bio-media. I rarely touch this filter to ensure the stability of the media/colony. The other filter is strictly mechanical with a sponge and tightly packed polyester fiber. I clean this filter often. I've also been using Seachem Purigen, a synthetic scaveger resin that adsorbs dissolved organic compounds and is regenerated with a 50/50 mix of chlorine bleach and water.
I have a [pool filter] sand substrate, no rooted plants yet, but a good mass of floating Aanacharis. I've been doing a 10g weekly water change (about to drop to 5g) and maintain tank nitrates of 5ppm. (I have very high nitrates in my source well water so have to pre-filter to remove).

I also go back to the 60's and 70's when I suffered from multiple tank syndrome. However, since I'm just a kid about to turn 59, I'm glad I'm not an ole fuddy-duddy like you and Byron!!! :tease: 

:-D AD


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## Timjwilson (Dec 13, 2012)

I'm still continuing my strange battle with nitrates. 

To review; 45 gallons (true; called a 55) - planted fairly heavy; 2 HOB filters converted to sort of refugiums with Pothos and a foam filter; recently upgraded to 54 watt T5 10,000K single 4 ft fluorescent; Six Discus ranging from 3.5 to 5 inches, 2 small bristlenose, 5 Jullii Cories, lots of malaysion & pond snails; substrate pea gravel over central pocket of sphagnum peatmoss mixed with washed sand.

I really want to keep my nitrates at or under 5 PPM but if I do not change 30 to 40% of the water every 2 to 3 days it goes up as high as 40 PPM. The Discus really do not like it. The average pH is 6.7. I feed dried black worms with spinach. I'm getting quite a lot of black hair algae, another sign of high nitrates. There are zero nitrates in my source water and I use no chemicals or water treatments outside of flourish. My phosphates are 0.5 to <1.0 PPM.

I occaisionally trap out excess snails. There is not a lot of degrading plant tissue.

I added the HOB 'planted filters' in an effort to beat this and upgraded the lighting as mentioned from 2 T8 Life-Glos.

Any ideas?

PS. I tried Purigen, with no readable effect.


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## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

Just a guess here but perhaps your snail population is out of control and creating too much waste creating your nitrate battle. How bad is your snail infestation? Pond snails are the devil..too much reproduction. 1 accidentally made it into my kids 16g and turned into hundreds within a month taking the nitrates to 20ppm with their weekly 75%water changes. Got assassin snails to take care of it and back to 0 for nitrates unless the kids wait 2 weeks for water change then it's 5ppm.


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## Timjwilson (Dec 13, 2012)

Agent13 said:


> Just a guess here but perhaps your snail population is out of control and creating too much waste creating your nitrate battle. How bad is your snail infestation? Pond snails are the devil..too much reproduction. 1 accidentally made it into my kids 16g and turned into hundreds within a month taking the nitrates to 20ppm with their weekly 75%water changes. Got assassin snails to take care of it and back to 0 for nitrates unless the kids wait 2 weeks for water change then it's 5ppm.


Thank you. I had considered this and you may be quite correct. What happens with the assassin snails when the clean out the others?


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## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

Timjwilson said:


> Thank you. I had considered this and you may be quite correct. What happens with the assassin snails when the clean out the others?


Well I think they are quite pretty and have left them in and have same amount still (several moths later) that I purchased so they don't breed like crazy. It'll take a while for them to get rid of all your snails but once they do they'll just eat leftover food that you feed the fish. But nitrates are rough on discus so i'd try to pull out all you can see of the pond snails( I promise there are tiny baby ones in your substrate for the assassins to eat).


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