# HELP ASAP



## TexasTornado (Sep 10, 2006)

my blue dwarf guarami is sick!! laying at the bottom of the aquarium and won't move but is still breathing. hasent been eating and stomach looks a little swollen. also it's head is a darker blue than the rest of it's body and i don't know what that means!!! and my water wisteria also looks bad and the leaves keep coming off, don't know if it's related or not...HELP i want to save my fish!

20 gal
ph 7
nitrites 0
ammonia 0
temp 78
1 dwarf blue guarami
3 tiger barbs


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## JouteiMike (Oct 7, 2006)

Staying on the bottom of the tank usually means the fish is sick, or being harassed. 

Do you have a liquid tester for Nitrates?

Worst case scenario, your Gourami has Dropsy.

I would quarentine the fish as soon as you can, so if it does have a disease, it won't spread to your other fish. Try feeding some anitbiotic food, and add Epsom salt at the rate of 1/8 teaspoon per every 5 gallons of water. This should reduce the swelling of the fish.


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## TexasTornado (Sep 10, 2006)

it's not being harassed because the tiger barbs are little and don't bother it it's usually the other way around. i don't have a nitrate tester im getting one tomorrow. 

bad news...i don't have a quarentine tank...i just have the 20 gal!

also it's scales look kinda funny, not sure what, they just don't look right.


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## JouteiMike (Oct 7, 2006)

Are the scales standing out? If you look at the fish from the top does the fish look similar to a pinecone? These are symptoms of dropsy. 

The fish needs immediate attention if the scales are like that and it is not eating. Dropsy is a pretty hard disease to treat. I would advise you that you would need another tank if you want to treat the fish, and it will also prevent the disease from spreading to your other fish.


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## TexasTornado (Sep 10, 2006)

i can't tell if the scales are standing out or not...that might be why the head of the fish is darker maybe...but at 12am nowhere is open. :BIGsad: i'll just have to get something first thing in the morning! don't know what else i can do...i added some aquarium salts and turned on the bubbles...it just seems weird that it happened at the same time my plants started looking bad.


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## TexasTornado (Sep 10, 2006)

i can't tell if the scales are standing out or not...that might be why the head of the fish is darker maybe...but at 12am nowhere is open. :BIGsad: i'll just have to get something first thing in the morning! don't know what else i can do...i added some aquarium salts and turned on the bubbles...it just seems weird that it happened at the same time my plants started looking bad.


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## JouteiMike (Oct 7, 2006)

Epsom salt should be the only salt used, as it has the ability to draw OUT liquids from the fish. Using other kinds of salt, like aquarium salt, actually may pull water IN to the fish, worsening the dropsy...

Do you have any large rubber bins or trash cans that are clean? Or something to house the guy overnight? Hopefully he'll be okay for the night if if you can't find anything, even with the aquarium salt added. I would maybe do a couple small water changes to dilute the salt a little.

The earlier you start treating it, the better the chance of the fish living.


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## TexasTornado (Sep 10, 2006)

oh i didn't add much of the aquarium salt...but i do have spsom salt and have added 1/2 tsp...but i have a feeling he won't make it till morning. This happened all so quickly!  the water level was about a gal low so i did add 1 gal of fresh tap water to the tank. this is a pic i just tookm don't know if it helps any .


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## JouteiMike (Oct 7, 2006)

Well I hope he makes it to see another day, that way maybe you can try treating him...but dropsy is a killer, but it's definitely not impossible to cure.

If you do end up treating it, it would be IDEAL to get another tank, you can probably get a 10gallon for 10 bucks. Then get some medicated food, like Romet B or Medi-Gold and feed that for 2 weeks. Try to get the temperature up to around 84-86 degrees for about 2 weeks and be sure to add some aeration to the tank, it is crutial because at such high temperatures water doesn't hold as much oxygen. Continue usin Epsom salt.

Best of luck to you and your fish!


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## crazie.eddie (Sep 1, 2006)

Hopefully it will be ok, but usually if it lays on the bottom, that it's very ill. If it tries to swim upright, but cannot and sinks quickly, then it may have swim bladder problems.

A nitrAte reading would help...

How long have you had the gourami?

When you added water, did you add dechlorinator?

It looks like you have live plants, do you add fertilizers or CO2?

If the scales were protruding, it would be very easy to tell, since the fish will look like a porcupine around it's stomach. It appears that the scales are NOT protruding. I'm not sure if the picture was taken with the fish swimming through the plants or it's just sitting there. If it is just sitting there, then unfortunately, it may not be long before it goes. Due to it's weakened state, moving it to another tank maybe be a bad idea.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Just in case the fish dies in the main tank, be sure to remove it as soon as possible. The way dropsy is contageous is when another fish eats the internal organs of an infected fish.
Just so you don't feel too bad, dropsy is something nobody knows yet where it comes from, what causes it. It is a termimnal illness, and while in some fish you can treat symptoms for a while, eventually it is fatal. There is no actual cure.
If possible, I'd get that fish out of the main tank asap. Then, if it doesn't survive, the other fish are not at risk of contracting the disease.


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## TexasTornado (Sep 10, 2006)

The water movement was making her hit the rocks when she tried to swim so I did remove her to a bowel, but unfortunately she did die (but NOT in the tank). I just hope my tiger barbs don't get it!!!! I had her for about a year and she was one hardy fish! I Use AquaSafe when adding water or changing it.


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## crazie.eddie (Sep 1, 2006)

Sorry to hear about the death. Just make sure you keep the tank clean. I would look into what happened before it got ill...

Ferts - Make sure it's diluted properly.

Outside chemicals - Any glass cleaning, bug spraying around the tank?

Acclimation - If it's a new fish, maybe the fish was not properly acclimated.


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## JouteiMike (Oct 7, 2006)

That sucks about the Gourami...sometimes there's just not much you can do to save a fish's life, but at least you made an effort. Best of luck with your other fish.


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## TexasTornado (Sep 10, 2006)

my nitrates are 10 ppm (mg/L). I'm not sure what that means though, I would appreciate it if someone would let me know it that's good or bad.

My other fish (3 little tiger barbs) are doing ok i think. 2 of them look like their stomachs are kinda swollen but eat anyways and then get a little fatter. They act fine so I just gave them some frozen peas. If that dosn't make them better could it be the dropsy???

How long should I wait to put another fish in? My 20 gal tank looks so empty!


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

10 ppm of nitrates is fine.
For dropsy cases, be on the lookout for symptoms such as bloated abdomen, protrusion fo scales and eyes popping out of the socket.

I can't answer the last question but an empty tank would definitely have mini-cycles as bacteria has nothing to feed on with the absence of fish and the wastes which serve as ammonia, food for the bacteria.


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## TexasTornado (Sep 10, 2006)

I fed them some fresh unfrozen peas and now their stomachs look even worse!!!!!!!!! They seemed overly happy to eat the peas and even darted around to see who got the pieces first!!! They seem to be working harder than they should to be staying upright.


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## JouteiMike (Oct 7, 2006)

"Headstanding" is something Tiger Barbs do when there is high nitrite. I would test again for nitrites. Are you using a good liquid test kit? The barbs tend to do this in the early stages of nitrite poisoning. Don't think feeding them a pea would make it worse, or suddenly make them headstand. 

How long have they been doing this?

Test your water parameters again, and if nitrite is indeed high, immediately do some water changes.


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

That's odd. The pic shows the barbs don't have large stomachs but if viewed on their backs, it probably is. But green peas should act as laxative and smoothen the flow of their wastes out of their bodies.


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## TexasTornado (Sep 10, 2006)

I just tested again and Nitrites are 0...To me in the pic their stomachs look bigger than normal, could it be im just not feeding them enough maybe??? I stuck the tip of my finger in the water and they nibbled me like they were paranas or something...Maybe i'm just being overly paranoid because of all the bad luck i'v had in the past.


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

Don't worry, Sarah.
Fish will never be satisfied by the food given to them. They will keep chomping down on foods which is why we tend to warn every hobbyist not to overfeed or risk the fish getting constipated.

I'd say there was nothing wrong with your fish. If their stomachs bulge to an extent, then they could have swim sluggishly and tend to fall to the bottom quite often.


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## JouteiMike (Oct 7, 2006)

Yeah their stomachs do look a little big. 

What are you feeding them and how often?

Are the barbs swimming okay? Any sign of stuggishness or trouble with swimming?

Take a look at their feces too if you have a chance, and describe how it appears, this could hold clues to their condition.


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## TexasTornado (Sep 10, 2006)

I feed flake food about 3 X a week. I have only fed them 1 kind of food. I just read recently that their diet should be varied so maybe that's the problem. I bought a dif brand of flake food to feed them so could alternate. I did have some tiny pellets for them, but it seemed to get stuck in their mouth and it took them a long time for it to get out. Is just alternating the brand of flake food enough?

They appear to be swiming fine right now, just zipping all over the place like normal. It's mainly just after I feed them they have problems. :frustrated: I think they are watching me and laughing at me stress out about them!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## JouteiMike (Oct 7, 2006)

Fish, like all animals, need a balanced diet inluding fats, carbohydrates, protein, vitamins, and minerals. Sometimes, if not most of the time, flake food only diets just don't cut it.

What brand flake foods do you have? It is good that you have two different types of flake foods, but how exactly are they different?

In addition to the flake food, you should be giving them either live or freeze-dried brine shrimp, bloodworms and beef heart as a treat. By that I mean every other day, or a couple times a week. Or if you want to you could do it every day, just make sure you don't overfeed.

You feed them only 3 times a week? I mean I guess that is acceptable, but in my opinion, feeding them smaller amounts once or twice a day would be better.


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

TexasTornado said:


> I think they are watching me and laughing at me stress out about them!!!!!!!!!!!!


:bluelaugh: Hee hee... Now there's the bright side to making a thread like this.:mrgreen:
Mike mentioned everything possible.:thumbsup: I'd try frozen stuffs rather than freeze-dried and live. Live stuffs just increase risk of introducing pathogens except maybe mosquito larva. I've never had problems feeding my fish with live mosquito larva. Avoid live tubifex worms. Being dwellers of muddy environments, they pose a great risk of introducing pathogens.

I find FD(freeze-dried) foods less nutritious than frozen. You can try using Mysis shrimps, bloodworms, flakes, brine shrimps(young ones are preferred as they seem more nutritious with their yolk still possibly intact), beefhearts, daphnia, raw fish, mussels, cockles and veggies. Mike mentioned some of these foods already. If you want to try beefhearts, make sure to feed the fish only once a week to lessen chances of introducing intestinal flagellates. Be sure to know that the fish eating beefhearts are carnivores or omnivores. Vegetarians run the risk of getting stomach upsets as they store too much protein when they need less protein. Pure vegetarians often have shorter intestines and meat takes time to digest rather than veggies so as mentioned above, they run the risk of getting stomach upsets easily.

What are your fish in the tank? We'd like to know so we can help you determine what food would be best as some are restricted only to certain species. One example of restriction is avoid feeding bloodworms and beefheart to Tropheus cichlids. Tropheus cichlids are often vegetarians hence food containing too much protein are avoided.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

I could debate the nutrition in all of the foods mentioned depending on the fish you're feeding it to, but I will wait to see where this thread goes before stepping in about that. I will say that how the food is packaged makes a huge difference. Feeding 3 times/wk is perfectly acceptable, and most fish will appear hungry no matter how often or how much you feed them. 
I saw everyone here ask about nitrite and nitrate levels, but what about ammonia and pH?
Also, tiger barbs like the temp a little cooler than most tropicals. They tend to do the best in the low to mid 70's.


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## TexasTornado (Sep 10, 2006)

tank size=20 gal
population=3 tigar barbs only
live plants (water wisteria who's leaves are coming off)
ammonia=0
nitrite=0
nitrate=10ppm
ph=7
temp=78 (constantly)

Their stomachs looked ok tonight so I fed them some frozen bloodworns and they gobbled them up...now they look bloated again!!!

Also one of them is quite a bit bigger than the rest and eats the food faster than the smaller two!!!


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

It's natural for the situation wherein bigger fish gets the biggest share to happen. They may also happen to be the most dominant of the growth. The disadvantage I've seen mostly in shoals is that the weakest ends up being a runt. Which is why in most fish farms, fry are separated as they grow to allow smaller ones to grow.


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## crazie.eddie (Sep 1, 2006)

From your original post and recent one, the ammonia, nitrItes, pH, and temp hasn't changed which is good. I would have to assume that they are just gluttons. LOL

One thing to keep in mind is it's usually good to skip a day or 2 of feeding to help clean their system out. I normally like to make the frozen peas before I make them fast for a day or 2.


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## TexasTornado (Sep 10, 2006)

mg: I just peeked at them and they seem to look fine!!!!! :roll: Thanks y'all!!!!!! I think I'll wait about a week and get a couple new fish...what would be a good choice??? Another Gourami maybe??? I don't know much about fish but I sure love learning about them!!! They are facinating!!

:thankyou:


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

TexasTornado said:


> mg: I just peeked at them and they seem to look fine!!!!! :roll: Thanks y'all!!!!!! I think I'll wait about a week and get a couple new fish...what would be a good choice??? Another Gourami maybe??? I don't know much about fish but I sure love learning about them!!! They are facinating!!
> 
> :thankyou:


Pentazona barbs or harlequin rasboras?:thumbsup: _Otocinclus affinis_ is also a good option. Try buying about 4 as you have only 3 tiger barbs in the 20 gallons tank.


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## JouteiMike (Oct 7, 2006)

There are lots of kinds of fish you could get. Any specific features you are interested in? Or specific kinds?

And about feeding, what I said earlier was just a suggestion. It doesn't matter a whole lot about when you feed them, just the main idea is to not overfeed them, as this tends to pollute the tank. That's why some people tend to feed them every over day, or a few times a week, they don't want to pollute their tanks. I just tend to feed my fish often, once or twice everyday, very small amounts, and maybe 2 or 3 times a month I give them a day of fasting to keep their ability to search for food in check.

Glad to hear about your fish doing well, and it's glad to hear you got some new kinds of food for them to enjoy.


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## TexasTornado (Sep 10, 2006)

Seeing I don't know a lot about fish, I'm not exactilly sure what I'm looking for. Something that gets along with my barbs, of course it has to be pretty, maybe something that dosn't hide ALL the time, colorful...a good learning fish??? (if that makes any sense) The only fish i'v ever had are tetras, barbs, and a gourami (MY FAV FISH who died)...She was pretty tough so I think I might get another one of those...


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## JouteiMike (Oct 7, 2006)

For gouramis, there's a bunch of choices of colorful ones good for beginners. You're familiar with the Blue, but there's also Gold, Pearl, Platinum, Sunset...and few others. All very colorful and peaceful. All the gouramis do best with at least 2. 

Same with barbs, there are bunch of different kinds that will go well with your Tigers. Gold and Rosy barbs would add color to your tank, but it would be best if you get at least 3 of one them, the like to swim in groups.

A bunch of Zebra Danios, maybe 5 or 6 could work too. They are extremely hardy and good for beginners.

There are still lots of other fish that would go well with your tank. Do a little research and choose wisely. And make sure you don't overstock the 20 gallon, I wouldn't put more than 3 or 4 medium sized fish, or a school of around 6 or 7 small fish for the next additions.


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

JouteiMike said:


> If you were looking for something a little unique, Silver Dollars would be a nice addition.


Not in the 20 gallons tank.:blink: A shoal of 4 would need 75 gallons minimum. 

Best to stick with smaller plecs, otos, cherry barbs, pentazonas, rasboras or small tetras.


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## TexasTornado (Sep 10, 2006)

I'll get 2 DWARF blue gouramis, and then choose something different next time in a couple months or so.


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## JouteiMike (Oct 7, 2006)

Yeah I didn't mean to add that, I'm gonna edit it out with another suggestion.


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## JouteiMike (Oct 7, 2006)

You could even try out a Cichlid if you want. There are a few that are not aggressive at all or territorial, like the Kribensis Cichlid. Very colorful and peaceful if you wanted to try something different.


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

TexasTornado said:


> I'll get 2 DWARF blue gouramis, and then choose something different next time in a couple months or so.


Make sure you get a pair and provide thickets of plants. We had one member whose male gouramis started to squabble and even harassed females. I wouldn't get more than just one male.
Male dwarf gouramis(_Colisa lalia_) are often brightly-colored while females are rather silvery or drab in color.


JouteiMike said:


> Yeah I didn't mean to add that, I'm gonna edit it out with another suggestion.


That's ok, Mike. Didn't mean to make you edit it out.:mrgreen:


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## TexasTornado (Sep 10, 2006)

GOOD...So i'll "fix" my plants then when they start growing again I'll get my gouramis...I only had one b4 she, Ella, was really bright blue so I guess it was actually a male... :lol:

OMG I love cichlids, but somebody said DON"T get one of those they are aggressive!!!!!!!!! I didn't know there were "nice" ones!!!


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

TexasTornado said:


> GOOD...So i'll "fix" my plants then when they start growing again I'll get my gouramis...I only had one b4 she, Ella, was really bright blue so I guess it was actually a male... :lol:


It's a male.


> OMG I love cichlids, but somebody said DON"T get one of those they are aggressive!!!!!!!!! I didn't know there were "nice" ones!!!


If your water conditions are stable, _Microgeophagus ramirezi_ would be a good choice. Buy only one pair. Other options are _Apistogramma agassizi_, _Apistogramma borelli_ and _Apistogramma cacatuiodes_. Not sure with Kribensis(_Pelvicachromis pulcher_) though. They get too aggressive(much more aggressive than apistos) during spawning season and may eventually kill your other fish as they try to secure their fry and territory. The apistos do get aggressive but not as aggressive as other cichlids.


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## JouteiMike (Oct 7, 2006)

Also the Keyhole Cichlids (Aequidens maronii) and Orange Chromide Cichlids (Etroplus maculatus) are peaceful cichiids that would do well with the barbs. The orange one needs at least 3 though to feel comfortable.


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## TexasTornado (Sep 10, 2006)

Thanks! I have to do something with my plants (workin on it) first then I'll get the fish! I gotta check them out...


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## JouteiMike (Oct 7, 2006)

Be sure to keep us updated! Can't wait to see pics of your new fish swimming in your tank, and some healthy plants, good luck!


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## TexasTornado (Sep 10, 2006)

Ok, heres what I'm thinking I want: 5 Zebra Danios, a BN catfish, and a pair of Apistogramma agassizi (Panda Dwarf Cichlids), or a pair of Blue Dwarf Gouramis...I think if I had a pair of both (dont know if even compatable) it might overstock my tank...would it???


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

I would say borderline in overstocking. As long as you can keep up with water changes, then it isn't a problem. With live plants, the nitrates would almost be maintained under 40. Just remember not to overfeed the fish. I'd change feeding schedule to once a day to be on the safe side.

I'd change the danios to harlequin rasboras. Danios prefer a lot of swimming space and they occupy the same level as the gouramis. Gouramis dwell mostly on the surface and their violent nature during spawning season may harm the danios.


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## JouteiMike (Oct 7, 2006)

Blue had a good suggestion. I'd say that is a suitable amount for a 20 gallon, but I would stop after you slowly add the Bristle nose, rasboras, and gourami/cichlid pair.

Are you planning on adding these all at once? I would space them out by at least a couple weeks, a month would be ideal, that way your biological filtration can catch on the new load slowly and not be suddenly unable to handle it all. Which would ultimately lead to many deaths in the aquarium. 

Be sure to pick out healthy looking fish, and if you have a quarentine tank (I think you said you didn't...but if you plan on getting one), stick them in there as a precaution, but this isn't required.

Best of luck and happy holidays!


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## TexasTornado (Sep 10, 2006)

OH NO, I'll only add one kind at once...I would never add that many at once! I just have to find a new a aquarium store to get my fish at...

HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :blueyay:


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## joeshmoe (Aug 2, 2006)

then gess your all set


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## Tracy (Aug 4, 2006)

On the tanks at the petstore I work at, they say which 'swimming level' each type of fish will frequent the most. The blue, gold or opaline gouramis are supposed to be surface swimmers, but the dwarf blue gouramis, are supposed to stay near the bottom?? :?


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

Tracy said:


> but the dwarf blue gouramis, are supposed to stay near the bottom?? :?


Wrong info. All species of gouramis are basically the same and will dwell mostly on the surface but not all do the spawning method of making bubblenest. Some use mouthbrooding.


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