# Saltwater tank



## fishdad1 (Aug 18, 2008)

I have two freshwater tanks up and running and have had a tank almost my whole life, but I have never had a saltwater tank. I have been on the fence about setting up a saltwater tank and have no I idea where to start, I feel like I am lost when it comes to saltwater setups. So i was wondering if anyone could help fill the gaps of knowledge that I have about saltwater setups. 

My first question is: Are there different saltwater setups? I know there are saltwater and brackish type tank setups, but are there any other setup types besides reef? I am just curious.

Second: What size tank is best for a saltwater setup? I have a 46 bow in my basement collecting dust and I didn't know if I could use it or if I should use it for a south american freshwater setup. There were a few tank sizes I was looking at for this endeavor: the 46 bow, a 40 breeder, a 55, a 65, a 75, or a 72 bow; but I didn't if one would have better dimensions suited for saltwater tanks.

Third: What kind of equipment will I need? Like I said before I know freshwater setups and what they need, saltwater is a whole different beast to me so I am not really sure what I need.

Fourth: What would be the best resource to find information about setting up and controlling water parameters in a saltwater tank?

Fifth: Depending on the size of the tank, what kind of livestock could I use to inhabit the tank; including fish, inverts, and corals. Also, is there such a thing as a saltwater aquarium plant, I have been wondering that for a long time?

Thanks for all who decide to help out.


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

to start, saltwater is no where compared freshwater price wise. they say your better off doing a top of the line freshwater tank then a saltwater tank if money is an issue. yes there are cheaper ways of doing it, but things still will be expensive. i strongly recommend doing things right from the start to save on costs, livestock and headaches. so far, your doing good asking questions first. the next step would be research and lots of it. research is invalueable since you dont have experience, research is as close as you can get to it. it also would not hurt to join a local reefing club. my club is $12 a year and we have monthly meetings, group buys, buy/sell equipment and corals for fractions of the price and overall all share a similiar interest.
*#1.* there are fish only tanks (which seem to be failure), fish only with live rock (FOWLR) tanks, and reef tanks (corals) Just like how people in freshwater do biotopes, people in saltwater do to taking particular habitats and replicating them with those fish/corals. you dont have to do this but its an idea.
*#2.* out of all those choices the 75. if not, the 40 breeder. dont get me wrong all will work but the wider tanks seem to be easier to aquascape with live rock. keep in mind the larger you go, the more expensive things get however the easier water parameters get to maintain because of the stability of water volume. this is also a good reason to have a sump. find more about them here, http://www.fishforum.com/member-submitted-articles/understanding-sumps-15930/ i personally use a 46 bowfront at the moment so it would work but im not a fan of the bow for 2 reasons. first its hard to scrape the curve daily (atleast every other day) and more importantly it was hard to build a stand for to be able to fit a sump under it. i ended up just building a wood frame from 2x4s
*#3. *flow, powerheads create flow, the oxygen content isnt the same as it is in freshwater so flow is important, corals also need flow and lots of it. in any saltwater tank a quality protein skimmer is priceless. before buying one, find reviews and feedback as some are garbage and some are golden. this along with quality live rock, flow, sand bed,water changes, possibly cheato algae and carbon/phosban reactors will be your only filtration. in a reef setup a protein skimmer is just as important as lighting. the main 3 are power compacts (PCs), T5s, and metal halides. the equipment doesnt end here but these are the most important 3.
*#4. *anything and everything. read and ask questions. after reading and reading and reading and reading and reading ( i said that so many times because its truelly priceless ) you should be able to piece together true information from false. Heres a small article i wrote: http://www.fishforum.com/member-submitted-articles/introduction-salt-water-19051/ but reading should not end here.
*#5. *fish, your going to want to decide if you want a FOWLR or reef. there are fish that are simply not reef safe. your going to have to learn which fish are compatible with which fish, their maximum size growth and what size tank they should be housed in some fish should strictly be avoided, territories, oxygen content... all comes into play. when you get to that step i suggest posting your stock your interesting in on here for someone to assist you. i really enjoy inverts and there are all kinds. hermit crabs, snails, sea cucumbers, shrimp, clams. . . corals- softies, LPS, SPS ( youll find out more about them as you go ) 
saltwater plants would be marco algaes. some you dont want, some are very pretty. some fish will just devour them so they are impossible to keep. usually they will just spring up as hitch hikers on liverock.

Please continue to read.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

I just want to emphasis the importance of Live Rock and Protein Skimming for a FISH ONLY marine aquarium. The availability of live rock and dropping prices of protein skimmers have made successful saltwater aquariums widespread. Before live rock and protein skimming, marine aquariums were EXTREMELY difficult. Today, they are not hard at all. You have a lot to learn, that is for certain. But with knowledge comes success in the marine hobby, and the knowledge is at your fingertips on the internet.


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## fishdad1 (Aug 18, 2008)

Thanks for all the input thus far.

I have been trying to do as much reading and gathering of information as I can, I think my brain is in overload right now. I still have many questions that I either can't find the answer to or haven't read anything about yet. It almost makes me wonder if I will ever find all the information I will need to do this and do it right so that I don't hurt any fish or other living organisms. Hopefully I will get it all right.

I do have a few questions to ask if anyone is willing to help:

1. Does anyone know if you can buy a 120 gallon with an overflow and is already pre-drilled. If not there are 3 other sizes that I am interested in: a 72 bowfront, a 75, or a 90 gallon. I know these three can be purchased with an overflow and already pre-drilled. Onefish, I know you suggested against the bowfront because of the stand, and I appreciate your suggestion, but for me that is not a big deal because I am a cabinetmaker by trade and was planning on building my own custom stand for whatever I go with. From what I gather these sizes are some of the most common sizes for larger reef tanks, so if anyone has any other suggestions please feel free to let me know.

2. I am having trouble understanding saltwater levels and everything that goes into the chemical levels of saltwater. So does anyone have a good understanding of them who could possibly explain them? Or does anyone know of a good resource that it easy to understand?

3. Also, I kinda want to set this up for my little girl because she loves her little ten gallon she has in her room. She also loves Finding Nemo, it is one of her favorite movies, and I know I want a pair of clowns, corals, a few other fish, snails, and maybe some shrimp. I would like to have a yellow tang, or a naso tang, but I know my little girl would be very disappointed if there was not a pacific blue tang in there because Dori is her favorite character. I remember reading somewhere that pacific blues have to be in extremely large tanks to thrive and live their full lives, is this true or would they be okay in any of the tanks I listed. Also, would the other tangs be okay as well? I know I should probably get a goby to move sand around, but I am not sure what kind though. Also, can anyone else recommend any other fish for the size tanks I have listed, like I said before this is kind of for my little girl so if I can incorporate as many fish from that movie as I can the happier she will be, but I know that a lot of those fish will not work in any of these tanks.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

If you go with a 120 gallon then I think you will be ok with the Kohl Tang or Yellow Tang, or both. I am reluctant to purchase any larger growing Tangs in a tank this small, because you are still pushing the minimum limits for the amount of space these fish need. I would say absolutely NO to a Naso Tang, and a 50/50 MAYBE/PROBABLY on Dori. Dori is a very hardi fish and would probably be ok, even if she feels a little cramped for space. (Dori, aka Blue Tang, aka Hippo Tang, aka Regal Tang, aka Paracanthurus hepatus)

You can buy almost any tank pre drilled. The normal charge is $100 extra, including overflows. Just ask the LFS to have it ordered. For tanks 6 feet in lenght, this would include 2 overflows.

I'm not sure I understand question # 2 above. There are over 400 (?) different trace elements, minor ions, and major ions that make up "saltwater". The biggest long term challenges are maintaining stable pH, alkalinity, and calcium levels. Various other things impact these, such as phosphate, magnesium, and borate.


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## fishdad1 (Aug 18, 2008)

Okay I completely forgot that there was something else I wanted to ask. I there any kind of rule of thumb about how big a sump should be compared to the main tank? I was wondering so I can try to get a ball park figure about the tank costs.


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

fishdad1 said:


> It almost makes me wonder if I will ever find all the information I will need to do this and do it right so that I don't hurt any fish or other living organisms. Hopefully I will get it all right.


although you may not find every piece of information to set up a saltwater tank i think taking the time to do enough research to find just about all of it you can is very important. months of planning and understanding how to set up, run and maintain a tank will equal success. its much better to do it right from the gate and have a gorgeous setup for years to come then setup now, ask questions later (which usually results in headache and money down the drain) i think your doing good so far, asking questions and reading.

that is fine if you enjoy the bowfront by all means go for it. your tank is meant to be your tank, so if this is what you enjoy then that is your preference. it is a nice tank for viewing but as ive stated the stand comes alittle tricky. its not to bad of a deal to build one, just more difficult then your regular old rectangle box stand. out of the suggested size tanks you mention i personally would avoid the 90 because you stated you wish to keep corals. the 90 can work but it is a deeper tank and lighting then becomes issue. a standard 75 is the same dementions as a standard 90 except the 90 is taller. which brings me to another question, what kind of lighting are you planning? what kind of protein skimmer? out of all the equipment you can have these are prob. the 2 most important things for a reef tank. dont forget other things like flow are important too.
have you decided what kinds of corals you wish to keep? choosing your stock list of fish is important too as you will want to add certain fish before others.
the sump should be as big as you can fit under the tank or next to it, for example i currently have a 46 gallon display with a 40 breeder sump. when i was building the sump i new i was upgrading soon so i decided to build a sump once. the extra water volume on my system has been great. dilution is the solution to pollution. are you planning on building the sump from a tank yourself?


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## conger (Feb 2, 2008)

there is no "rule of thumb", per se, on the size of a sump relative to the main tank. The closest I'll suggest is as big as you can fit under the stand .

If you have a refugium in the sump, then the refugium should be at least 10% of the display volume, the more the better. So thats a rule of thumb, but not for the overall sump of course.

Really, the main thing that will determine the sump size, is being sure you are able to store your equipment in it (thats one of the two main advantages of a sump, the other being increasing the total water volume of your system). For example, your protein skimmer will have a certain footprint, and you'll need to be sure your skimmer chamber is large enough to hold the skimmer and pump (if its an in-sump skimmer and pump). If you have carbon or phosban reactors, be sure there's room to mount them. Etc... You want to make the return pump section large enough to be able to withstand some evaporation and still have your pump submerged (again assuming its an in-sump, and not external, pump).

That might have just confused you more, but hopefully it helped!


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

your also going to want to take into consideration alittle *extra* volume in the sump to be able to take water that flows back down the plumbing and an inch or so from the display due to a power failure or pump turn off.


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## fishdad1 (Aug 18, 2008)

Again, I just wanna thank you guys for helping me out with all of this info. I feel like my head is about to explode with all of the stuff I have been reading lately.

Onefish, I apologize that I honestly can't really answer you on all of your hardware questions, because I am so new to saltwater tanks that I haven't gotten that far into researching yet. So I honestly don't know what kind of lighting, skimmer, or other mechanical equipment I would like to use yet. I have just been trying to focus on understanding everything, and how it all works together to benefit the tank, as much as I can before I start deciding on products. I still haven't fully figured out everything about a sump and its parts all work together yet. I just don't want to rush into this and screw up, because this is going to be a big investment and rationalizing this spending to my wife is going to be a chore in of itself. Oh and boy is it fun to try to explain to a spouse, who has no interest in this hobby besides "ohh that fish is cute," why I want to spend the money on such a larger tank, and why I need such a large tank for that matter, plus the sump tank and everything else. 

I haven't even thought about corals yet I am still working on equipment and why I need the things I need. I must admit that I have been thinking about a livestock list, because like I said this is for me and my little girl. I would like to incorporate as many of the Nemo fish as I can just for her benefit, because that is what she identifies with being aquarium fish. So here is my list thus far, please keep in mind that I am new to saltwater and am still learning so it will most likely change as I learn what works.
2-Ocellaris clownfish (Amphiprion ocellaris)
1-Regal Tang (Paracanthurus hepatus)
1-Royal Gramma (Gramma loreto)
?-Skunk Cleaner Shrimp Pacific Cleaner Shrimp, Scarlet Cleaner Shrimp (Lysmata amboinensis)
1-Yellow Tang (Zebrasoma flavescens)
?-Perhaps a variety of snails


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Most of the fish from Finding Nemo are ok for you. One fish you absolutely can not have is the Morish Idol. These fish do not survive in the aquarium for any period of time, unless in the hands of a very experienced hobbyist with a VERY large aquarium. 

The fish on your list so far look very nice and are good hardy fish for a beginner.


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

no need to say sorry, infact i am very please you want to continue to do reasearch and do things right. in the long term it will pay off, thats for sure. the reason i asked about lighting and skimming and so forth is because its something your going to need but if thats ahead of you thats fine. slow is the way to go. 

so far that stock list sounds good to me. your going to want snails. a clean up crew ( CUC ) is the first of things you add after the diatom bloom. i personally like a variety of snails.. astrea, cerith, nerite, stomatalla, turbo, nassarious and i avoid crabs and honestly hermit crabs too as they wont hesitate to rip snails from there shell for their shell. i also have a sea cucumber. all the different shrimp are pretty awesome too (besides a mantis shrimp which if your keeping should have its own special setup) 

it wouldnt hurt to look in your area for a local reefing club. my club is $12 a year and we hold monthly meetings, have a chance to buy/sell/trade cheap corals frags, equipment, meet some great people with the same interest, and learn a ton of things.


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## conger (Feb 2, 2008)

hey that's why we're here fishdad1 . I, and I know others, are really encouraged by your desire to research and understand everything before you dive in. So I'm (and we're) happy to share all our knowledge and answer your questions. You mentioned not really understanding the parts of a sump, so I'll give a brief overview here. There's a longer post written by one of our resident experts, that I don't have a link to off-hand, but hopefully someone else can post a link for it. I'll give you the short version here:

There are two _primary_ benefits of a sump: (1) increasing the total water volume in your system, adding stability to your parameters and helping dilute nasties in the water ("the solution to pollution is dilution"), and (2) providing a convenient place to place your equipment out of sight.

The three main parts of your run-of-the-mill sump, are (1) the inlet/skimmer chamber, (2) a refugium chamber, and (3) the return pump chamber. Each of these three chambers are normally separated by two or three baffles, that trap bubbles preventing bubbles from making it to the return chamber and back into the display (so you don't have lots of small bubbles swirling about your display). The inlet chamber, is where the overflow from the display comes, and is also where a protein skimmer is recommended to reside (so it is skimming the water directly from the display). I personally also put my heater in this chamber. The refugium is a place where you can put macro algae (a bushy-looking algae that helps absorb nitrates from the water), also providing a place for small critters to reproduce and provide a natural food source for the livestock in your display. If you have macro in a refugium, you will also have a light over the sump (algae needs light!), and it is useful to put it on a reverse cycle from the display (off when display lights are on, on when display lights are off) to help stabilize pH. The return pump chamber is just that: the chamber where your return pump sits and pumps water back into the display. Normally, the return pump chamber is the only place where water level is affected by evaporation (since the display and other chambers have water filling up and flowing over baffles, they stay at a constant level).

There are two possible arrangements of these three chambers (in terms of order that water flows): (1) inlet -> refugium -> return, and (2) refugium -> return <- inlet. The (2) is done by splitting the overflow from the display to either side of your sump. This allows you to control how much water passes through the refugium and skimmer section, instead of making the flow rate the same for both as it would be in (1). Refugiums ideally have a slower flow, so (2) allows you to make this happen.

Hope that helped!


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

i posted the link early on but here it is again: 
http://www.fishforum.com/member-submitted-articles/understanding-sumps-15930/
i have the split over flow with 2 inlets, so my sump is:
skimmer (inlet)| bubble trap | return pump | bubble trap | refugium (inlet)








keep in mind the rock in the refugium can actually trap things do to the low flow. i just have that in there to hold it wet while im finishing up my next build.
and heres the left side:








the big white pipe is the outlet of my skimmer










if you have DIY skills i strongly suggest building your own sump for 2 main reasons. first it is cheaper. the prebuilt sumps cost a fortune. secondly you can build it to fit your needs with chambers built to your size (some skimmers are in-sump and need room to fit their footprint plus return pumps ect.)
you can also build your stand around your sump or your sump around your stand (unless your plumbing your tank to the basement or elsewhere which i would then personally use a 100 or 150 gallon rubbermaid stock tub)


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## fishdad1 (Aug 18, 2008)

Okay, I have decided not to go with the 72. With the cleaning, odd stand size, and possible problems with adequate lighting I have decided against it and have narrowed it down to two sizes. I have decided that either a 75, that's 48 x 18 x 20, or a 100 gallon, thats 60 x 18 x 20. From what I gather so far, the height and depth of either would be more than adequate for a reef tank while the 75 gives me "enough" swimming length or the 100 giving me "more than enough" swimming space. Plus I really don't want anything bigger than 100 because I don't want to get crazy with my spending.
With that being said I was thinking that a 40 gallon breeder tank might be big enough to accommodate a sump for either of these tanks. Am I thinking correctly or does it need to go bigger? Yes, I would like to try to build my own sump. I feel that I still need to learn more about how to do that and how to set up the different sections, I mean sizes and what hardware to use. 

I am sure this is going to sound dumb to you guys, but in the refugium I should have sand, small corals, and algae, could this area be used to hold a small breeding pair or eggs? Also could it be used as a grow-out area for fry, or is all of this a dumb idea?


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## conger (Feb 2, 2008)

just a small suggestion, and this is especially true if you are planning a fish-only with live rock (FOWLR) setup, then I'd suggest going for the 100 gallon. You cited "more than enough" swimming space, but I'd say instead you're just getting to the size where you can keep some of the cooler saltwater fish species.

The difference between 4 feet and 6 feet of swimming space is pretty significant, several of the larger and more attractive species (including tangs) would be very constrained in a 4 foot tank.


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## fishdad1 (Aug 18, 2008)

I would like to do a reef tank but I would like it to be big enough that any fish that I do put in it are not cramped for space. Plus I said before that I would like to have a blue hippo tang and a yellow tang in it, so I would have to accommodate them as well as all of the other organisms in the tank. I just want to do this right provide the best environment I can for whatever animals and/or corals I do get.


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

fishdad1 said:


> while the 75 gives me "enough" swimming length or the 100 giving me "more than enough" swimming space.


when is it ever enough? :roll: ;-)

a refugium is a slow flowing area for sand, macro algae ( i personally use chaetomorpha) to culture pods and beneficial organisms. granted you put proper lighting there isnt any reason you couldnt keep corals in a fuge HOWEVER it is slow flowing so this brings issue. you could also raise fry in it HOWEVER there is a pretty high chance they will get sucked over a baffle and blended in the return pump. You could use a refuge to temp. keep a fish that was being bad in your display HOWEVER it is not a QT as it will be hooked up to your display tank. I personally run my fuge light on a reverse cycle ( opposite the display tank lights ) to help stabalize the pH, everything is automated to turn on/off by timer.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Honestly... I would suggest a 125 minimum. The cost will be minimal difference and the added swimming space critical for Tangs.

Of course, as long as you have 6'' tank, you might as well go 180.-)


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## fishdad1 (Aug 18, 2008)

Okay, I am sure if any of this is true or not but I hope someone is able to answer this for me. Because I want to do a reef setup, I will need live rock this much I know is correct. However, I have heard that lacerock can be used as live rock, it just has to be cured or turned into live rock somehow. My questions is, is this true that lacerock can be used as liverock? If so, what is involved the process of curing rock to be lacerock, I know it involves being immersed in water but do I have to do anything chemically to it? I only ask because I have seen the prices of some of the cured liverock at my lfs and I am not impressed by the price or esthetics of their selection. However, my friends' family owns their own landscaping company that has an abundance of lacerock and I can get 75lbs of lacerock from them for about 5 bucks. Which I think is a hell of a deal.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Lacerock makes for ok base rock in your reef. You could use 25-35% lace rock and then complete your display with actual live rock. The lacerock is porous and will naturally become live rock after a period of time in the aquarium. 

Basically, the critters on the live rock will multiply and spread onto the lace rock. It takes 6 months to a year to achieve the same natural effect. You will just need to take it slow and stock accordingly.

Please tell me the city, state, and address that I can drive to so that I may also purchase 75 pounds of base rock for $5.00. Seriously. Its worth a day of my time.


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## soxfan81 (Jan 25, 2009)

when you guys built your own sump where did you buy your baffles from? Did you get acrylic and cut it down yourself or did you ave a glass shop cut pieces for you? How thick were the pieces?


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## conger (Feb 2, 2008)

I bought acrylic sheets online from US Plastics, then cut them down myself. I'm pretty sure I used 1/4" thick acrylic, and it's worked fine... I've even had one chamber full and the next completely empty, with no leaks and no bowing. I just applied generous amounts of silicon sealant to the seams, on both sides. Getting a shop to cut them for you would certainly be better, but doing it myself worked just fine.

My sump is a 30 gallon aquarium (30" L x 18" H x 12" W) divided into three chambers.


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## fishdad1 (Aug 18, 2008)

Okay so its been a few days since I last posted anything in this, but after some serious figuring, reading and studying I am ready to ask for more answers to my many more questions. Due to available space in my home and available tank dimensions, without going crazy and having a custom size made, I have to stay 48' or under in length. I would like to go longer but with what my wife would like to get more furniture for our living room and the 48' will fit perfectly so that the room won't be cramped. I will go bigger once our new baby is born and gets a little bit older, so that I can have time to finish the basement for the kids and either get a 72' tank and either put it down there or reenforce the floor and put it upstairs. So for now I am stuck with either a 75 or 90, but my wife has kind of asked me to put a budget on this project and it is looking like the 75 is going to be the winner. This is because of the added cost of the larger tank and the added cost of lighting for the tank as well as everything else being more expensive the bigger you go. Does anyone see any problems with doing my reef setup in a 75 gallon tank? 

Also, i was looking into lighting systems for the tank and from what I have read about lighting systems I will need 3-5 watts per gallon and at least 10000k for my tank to thrive. So the best system I could find without spending over $300 is the 48" 4x65W Corallife Aqualight Deluxe Series Double Linear w/ Cooling Fans CF Hood, 2x Actinic and 2x 10,000k. Would this work well for what I want to do, or do I need to go bigger, or does anyone else have any other suggestions? Please don't tell me to setup my own vho fixture because I know nothing about electricity except that it hurts when it goes through you. Also, what is the best cover for a marine tank? Can I use a class canopy? Oh one more thing for today, would a 30 gallon long be a good sump for it or should I go larger? 

I am trying to learn all I can, as fast as I can, but I am trying to start at the top and work my way down and get a good list of what I need or will need. Thanks again for all the help so far.


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

75s make good tanks. i prefer them over 90s as a standard 75 is the same dementions as a standard 90 except its taller which makes lighting more of an issue.

im sure you can get a used 55 gallon tank to use as a sump. they are 4 feet long. the larger the sump the more water volume (and room for skimmer and equipment) you will have. keep an eye out on www.craigslist.com for a used tank. a 30 long or even a 20 long would work but i personally would do a 55.

i also personally would get t5s for lights. do you have an idea on the type of corals you wish to keep? 

i would not use the glass lid as they trap heat, reduce gas exchange and most importantly salt creep builds up blocking out your lights. if you are keeping fish that are known jumpers i suggest a open netting in a built frame on the top.


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## fishdad1 (Aug 18, 2008)

Just wondering,why would you go with the t-5's onefish? Don't they give off less wattage than the compacts? I really am not sure what kind of corals I want to keep yet, I probably would start out with a few that are relatively easier to care for and then work my way up. But I would like to set the tank up so that I can keep whatever in the tank as I learn more and become more comfortable with caring for them. I have heard of some people using eggcrate to cover their tanks and keep their fish in. You ever hear of this?


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## fishdad1 (Aug 18, 2008)

Also, any recommendations for beginner corals?


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## conger (Feb 2, 2008)

+1 to what onefish said. If you're looking to minimize cost, and you don't want to go over 4' in length, then definitely get the 75 instead of the 90. Like onefish said, they're the same length and width, a 90 is just taller which will make it more difficult to light everything.

I use a 30 gallon tank as a sump for my 90 gallon, and i wish i would have gone bigger.

It sounds like you are considering the light fixture that I just changed from. Not that its a bad fixture, its actually pretty decent and will make your tank look very nice, but depending on what kinds of corals you want to keep, it might not be powerful enough (~3.5 W/gal). That would be fine for softies, and some of the lower-light-needing LPS corals, but having more would allow you a greater selection so you wouldn't be limited if later on you saw something you really wanted.

I can't answer why T5's are better than PC, but I've heard the same and have always assumed it to be true. Hopefully someone else can provide more specific info on that topic. One reason might be because T5 fixtures typically have individual reflectors for each bulb, whereas your PC fixture just has a single reflect for all the bulbs, so more light from the T-5 gets used. I'm sure thats far from the only reason, it might just be a minor thing in the grand scheme of things. It may also have to do with the fact that pure Watts given off is different than the PAR [Photosynthetically Available Radiation] rating (usually not published as far as I know), and of course PAR is ultimately more important than Watts. Perhaps T-5's produce a higher PAR than PCs of similar or equal wattage (?).


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## conger (Feb 2, 2008)

fishdad1 said:


> Also, any recommendations for beginner corals?



guys with more experience, please correct me if I'm wrong!

I'd suggest:

zooanthids (zoas)
mushrooms
ricordia
trumpet coral
brain coral


there are many others I'm sure, but these I'm pretty confident about.


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

*PCs (power compacts)*
Pros:
-Cheap to purchase fixture itself
-Runs Cool
Cons:
-Limited to softy corals
-Bulb life is short
-Bulb replacement is expensive

*T5s*
Pros:
-Can chage color by switching out 1 or 2 bulbs
-Can keep a larger selection of corals
-Run "medium" temperature
-Longer bulb life

Cons:
-High light demanding things cannot be kept low in the tank
-"More" expensive to purchase fixture

*MHs (Metal Halides)*
Pros:
-Can keep pretty much any coral
-Creates a unique shimmer in the water
-Long bulb life

Cons:
-Run the hottest and most likely need a chiller
-Usually have to be supplemented with PC or T5 actinic bulbs to get the "pop" in the corals coloration
-Expensive to purchase a fixture
-Can consume alot of energy

*LEDs*
Pros:
-Do not get very hot
-Energy efficient
Cons:
-Initial purchase of fixture is very expensive

This is my take on things. I personally use an icecap T5 retrofit setup which really is pretty simple to wire up but you need a canopy to mount the lights into because it doesnt have a clean look of a pre-built fixture. I have used Pcs and they were "ok" but i hated them, i have a metal halide ballast and pendant that i have yet to use which i most likely wont because i enjoy the t5s. i do not know much on the LEDs. i actually hear big LED companies are going out of business but im not 100% on that.

as for "easier corals"
-mushrooms
-zooathids **
-palythoas**
-green star polyps
-pulsing xenia
-clove polyps
-kenya tree

**all corals contain a risk of giving stings, rashes, and so forth and varies on individuals. zooathids and palys esp. contain a toxin so caution should be taking after handling/fragging. wash hands well in warm soapy water. its not as bad as it sounds but should not be overlooked if properly handled.

regardless of ease of coral they all need proper calcium, mag, alk levels along with other parameters in check.
feel free to ask anymore questions.


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## fishdad1 (Aug 18, 2008)

After doing all of this research I feel like I have been working on my undergrad thesis paper again. Anyways I have some more things I have been mulling over and could use some opinions and quality information about these ideas. As it is known I want to do a 75 gallon tank with a center overflow, and I will build a custom stand for it to accommodate anything I need. However, I have come up with a few ideas for this tank and without delay:

Mechanical Items:
Lights - 48" Nova Extreme Pro HO T5 6x54 watt
- 2 Aqualight Lunar Blue-Moon-Glow
Sump - 30 gallon long 36x12x17, not designed yet
Protein Skimmer - Coralife Superskimmer 125
Return Pump - 634 gph Eheim 1260
Powerheads - 2- 850 gph Hydor Koralia 3
Heaters - 2- 250 watt Marineland Stealth Heaters

Inverts & Corals - 
2-Skunk Cleaner Shrimp, Pacific Cleaner Shrimp, Scarlet Cleaner Shrimp (Lysmata amboinensis)
2-Bumble Bee Snails (Pusiostoma Medicaria)
1-Orange Linckia Starfish
-Pulsing Xenia
-Button Polyps
-hopefully many other "beginner" corals and others as I become more experienced with coral keeping

Fish -
2-Ocellaris clownfish (Amphiprion ocellaris)
1-Blue Hippo Tang (Paracanthurus hepatus)
1-Royal Gramma (Gramma loreto)
1-Yellow Tang (Zebrasoma flavescens)
1-Neon Goby (Elacatinus Oceanops)
2-Banggai Cardinal (Pterapogon Kauderni)
1- Scooter Dragonet (Synchiropus Ocellatus)

If anyone could give me their opinions about this setup I would greatly appreciate it. Also, I want to put this tank in my living room, which is on the first floor above my basement, so I will add beams and posts to reenforce the floor. With that being said I want to build that little area into a supply cabinet with two trash cans for mixing water. Now, I do not know very much about auto top offs so if some one could educate me on them and anything else I would need to set one up. Also, if there is any equipment I have not thought of please feel free to educate me about them.
Thanks everyone.


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

i have heard the coralife skimmer isnt very effective, however i do not have experience with it. if i was in your shoes i would read online reviews of skimmers. some are worth your money as others are worth headaches. 
as for the orange star i would wait atleast a few months before adding this. bumble bee snails i have heard to be predatory. 
when you get the bangaiis be sure that they are tank bred. wild caughts seem to die in sort order in your tank due to catching methods as well as their numbers in the wild are at a low. i actually think they are on the warning list of endangerment. however they are successfully bred in captivity and make great additions granted you get tank breds. if the store of purchase doesnt know the source i suggest shopping else where. 
the auto top off is going to be in the basement directly under the tank? if your planning to have your RO/DI on a top off ( to fill the bucket by itself ) look into solinoids (sp?) 
a top off is simple. its a float switch that when raised or lowered it shuts something on or off. get the one that has 2 float switches on it. this is a safety measure so that something will not overflow or your pump wont burn out from running dry depending how you set it up. 
this is going to be a very nice setup. trust and believe your hard work and research will pay off without a doubt. im looking forward to more progress so dont be shy and keep us updated. :wink:


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## fishdad1 (Aug 18, 2008)

I looked through quite a few reviews and it said that the Coralife was pretty good, was there any others that you can recommend that are any better? 

Also, can anyone give me some opinions on what order to stock the tank? I know the cleaner crew should go in first, then probably the clowns, but how should I go about it after that?

Also, as far as the snails and shrimps go, would two shrimps be enough or too many and can anyone recommend a good snail setup to help clean and control things for me? Oh, and my daughter's tank is now being overrun by pond snails right now, and I hate them because they are a nuisance, and they reproduce asexually. Do marine snails do the same or do they actually have to mate?

Thanks for the info on the wild vs. tank raised, I think it is important to help protect animals that are in danger in the wild.

I honestly do not know how I am going to setup the auto top off, if I get on, a buddy of mine was telling me about a guy he knew that had his set up with one, and I was trying to get more info about it. Like I said, since I am going to reenforce the floor and finish the basement, I might put the buckets underneath it, if I can, and finish the basement to where I can use that area for that and a little more for family storage.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

On stocking, the list looks good. I would be certain to add both Tangs at the same time and add them to the aquarium as your final selections. They will become very territorial once established. 

I do think you have some more planning when it comes to equipment. I think the return sump pump could be a little shy for your needs, especially after the head pressure reduces the water flow. I also agree that the Coralife is at the low end of the skimmer line for your type setup. I would consider the Red Sea Berlin skimmer Berlin X2 Venturi Skimmer | Venturi Models | Protein Skimmers | Aquarium - ThatPetPlace.com if price is a concern. If money is not an issue, go ahead and upgrade now to an ASM model In-Sump Protein Skimmer - G-1X - 150 gallon - 22 1/2 in. high | Venturi Models | Protein Skimmers | Aquarium - ThatPetPlace.com.

On a final note, I would strongly encourage every marine hobbyist to purchase a UV Sterilizer. I know these unitsare not an everyday recommendation, but if it saves the life of 1 fish then it pays for itself. They are not expensive and in my opinion dramatically increase your odds of success. And yes, you can use them on a reef system.


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

fishdad1 said:


> I looked through quite a few reviews and it said that the Coralife was pretty good, was there any others that you can recommend that are any better?
> 
> Also, can anyone give me some opinions on what order to stock the tank? I know the cleaner crew should go in first, then probably the clowns, but how should I go about it after that?
> 
> ...


As for stocking i agree with the tangs last, same time. Clowns first, even with the bangaii. QT your fish in a seperate tank a month or so in advance before adding to the display!
I like the ASM brand. G1 sounds good to me, even better a G2 as over skimming is better then under skimming. I had a asm mini G running on a smaller tank and really liked it. Ive heard some decent things about berlin too, just do not have any experience with the brand.

Your going to see a diatom bloom shortly after having your live rock in your tank. This usually indicates its time to add your snails. Your going to want to test your water parameters first to make sure as all inverts are sensitive. I like to start with a few and slowly build up. You can add more at any time, and this is better because you dont want to start out with a million and starve them out. I like a mixture of different kinds of snails. Astreas are good algae eaters but they cant re-flip themselves back over in the sand, ceriths and nerites are other good algae eaters, mexican turbo snails are good to have too but are large and will knock over loose corals ( not so much a big deal ) nassarius snails are good for eating left over foods and stirring sand, stomatallas are good algae eaters and interesting looking. As for crabs i avoid them. This includes hermit crabs as they will kill snails for their shells and alot of times decide they dont even want that shell. Emerald crabs tend to be alright until they realize theres better food to be had in the tank. Crabs are a personal prefference. The cleaner shrimp arnt much of cleaners when it comes to cleaning the tank. Yes, they will grab some left over foods and clean fish (which is awesome) but wont really do much otherwise. Im very fond of skunk cleaner shrimp. Pistol shrimp are the same, i have to spot feed mine which at the moment i dont even know where it is. I see him all over the place in my tank, usually he is restricted to his burrow but i guess hes on the prowl for food. Marine snails do not reproduce like pest or ponds snails in freshwater. It would be great if they did as some snails are $1-3 a peice but i suggest starting with a few until your tank builds up more food for them and then getting them in bulk, saving a ton of money. My reefing club has invert group buys like twice a year. If you can find a local reefing club, you'll save money. Stomatalla snails will reproduce, i prob. have a couple hundred of them, but due to their soft shells they can fit in small places and tend to hide most of the day, besides so much more is going on in my tank that your not looking at snails. Ive had ceriths lay eggs in my tank a bunch of times, dont think they ever made it.

A tip for the auto top off is dont drill a hole in your floor, drill a hole in the wall then go down to the basement. You'll have an easier time putting a square of sheet rock over the hole in the wall then replacing the wood on the floor at a later date.

Im really excited for this tank!


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## fishdad1 (Aug 18, 2008)

Pasfur, thanks for your input. I will look into both of those and try to come up with something, and look into the uv sterilizer as well.

I think I am getting close to having most of this figured out, and I have you all to thank for a lot of it. Now I just have to figure out three things: how I am going to plumb everything, how to setup a auto top off if I do that route, and how to design the sump to maximize the refugium and still have room for back flow. Hopefully someone will be kind enough to help me design sump, wink wink nudge nudge. Again thank you all for all of your help it is greatly appreciated.


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

fishdad1 said:


> Inverts & Corals -
> 2-Skunk Cleaner Shrimp, Pacific Cleaner Shrimp, Scarlet Cleaner Shrimp (Lysmata amboinensis)
> 2-Bumble Bee Snails (Pusiostoma Medicaria)
> 1-Orange Linckia Starfish
> ...


i have heard of bumble bee snails being predatory but im not sure on that. the linkia should be added later down the road when the tanks more established. those corals sound good to start with. 

i would add the clowns, bangaii and neon goby all at the same time. i would then wait a month or two adding the royal gramma. another 2-3 months and add the scooter dragonet ( they need good established tanks ) and then another month adding both tangs. this is how i would stock the tank with that list.


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

fishdad1 said:


> Pasfur, thanks for your input. I will look into both of those and try to come up with something, and look into the uv sterilizer as well.
> 
> I think I am getting close to having most of this figured out, and I have you all to thank for a lot of it. Now I just have to figure out three things: how I am going to plumb everything, how to setup a auto top off if I do that route, and how to design the sump to maximize the refugium and still have room for back flow. Hopefully someone will be kind enough to help me design sump, wink wink nudge nudge. Again thank you all for all of your help it is greatly appreciated.


plumbing everything is as simple as using PVC, the 2 part solution that bonds it, and allowing it to fully dry. Using two 45s in your plumbing set up is better then using one 90 as it is less flow restricting. 

as for sumps mine goes like this

*|* inlet, skimmer section *|* bubble trap *|* return pump *|* bubble trap *|* refugium, inlet *|*

so i have my overflow split going to either side of the sump ( my new tank has 2 downs so i wont need to split that one ) and my return pump goes up, is "T'd" off to a ball valve which returns water to the refugium section. Opening and closing that ball valve allows me to fine tune the water getting pumped back up to the tank.


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