# NOW what?



## lake dweller (Jan 30, 2014)

Well we have learned we should have learned more before we started this adventure. But, we already have the tank set and stocked. We have a 20 gal high. 2 dwarf gourami , 2 guppies and their 7 week old babies (separated in the floating breeder), 1 neon, pleco, 2 clown loach, angelica cat, lace cat, red tail and bala shark, 1 female betta, and an angel fish left. We lost our silver dollar, a male guppy, and a neon in the last 2 days. Our tank has been set since early December. 

We have Ich. We brought the temp to 82 over 2 days slowly and added aquarium salt.

What next?

We lost our one clown loach (he jumped up the filter waterfall) and our powder blue gourami 2 week or so ago and replaced them but got 2 loaches instead of 1 and covered the gap.


Thank you and any advise where to go from here is needed!


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

Woah, woah, woah, stock is a BIG issue. I need to go but someone should be along shortly to help you. You are going to need to get a bigger tank and/or rehome most of these fish, unfortunately.


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## lake dweller (Jan 30, 2014)

to clarify, It should have read 7 guppies that are a week old.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

86F and higher will help with ich...

You have a big issue with your stocking. I recommend looking up all of these fish, read about them from reputable fishkeeping sites (including this one) and research the space they need, their behaviour, etc. Some get quite aggressive, while others will grow too big and a 20 gallon simply isn't suitable 

You don't neccessarily need salt to treat ich, 86F+ should do the trick, along with frequent water changes and gravel vacumming to rid of any free floating ich.

Good luck, keep us updated 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

Hey! As Flint said, stocking is your major issue here. You have fish that will outgrow your tank, improper shoal numbers, and disasters waiting to happen. You're going to need a bigger tank or to find other homes for those fish. I'm going to list out the species you have and their individual issues. 

*2 dwarf gourami *- dwarf gourami can be housed together, but a 20 gal is too small. One of these fish can stay; the other needs to find a new home away from the angelfish and betta as these fish are incompatible. 

*2 guppies and their 7 week old babies* - these guys are actually perfect for a 20 gal. Keep em! But you might want to put the females in another tank because guppies can and will overpopulate a tank

*1 neon (tetra I'm assuming)* - while this fish is a good candidate for a 20 gal, they are a shoaling fish and need to be with more than 6 of the same species. They often become very stressed when kept in insufficient numbers. Get more and they'll do great with the guppies. 

*pleco* - I'm going to assume this is the common pleco that pet stores normally sell without telling you a darn thing about them. This fish is going to outgrow your 20 gal and even a 55 gal. They get huge and they poop. A ton. 

*2 clown loaches* - another extremely poor choice. These fish are shoalers who need large groups and they grow over 12 inches long. When housed properly they need a tank larger than 100 gallons. 

*angelica cat* - had to look this one up. Most people will know it as a _Synodontis angelicus_. Again it's going to get too large for a 20 gal. 

*lace cat* - Another one to look up. _Synodontis nigrita_. Another one that will outgrow your tank. 

*red tail shark* - these guys are known troublemakers. As they age, they tend to become belligerent to other bottom-dwelling fish. 

*bala shark* - I have no clue why stores still sell this fish. They get larger than 12 inches and are a shoaling fish. You'll need an aquarium larger than 100 gallons to safely house them. 

*1 female betta* - could live in the 20 gal if it weren't for the gourami. 

*1 angel fish* - A shoaling cichlid that does best in groups of 5. They also get really tall and need tanks larger than 40 gallons. 

Honestly, to avoid overwhelming yourself, I'd rehome everything except the guppies, neon tetra (only if you are willing to get more), one gourami, and betta (if you are willing to get her a 5 gal tank by herself). It's not your fault, but you have a lot of incompatible fish. Not even upgrading to a 55 gal will solve your problems as the bala shark, pleco, and clown loaches will outgrow that. 

Seriously Fish This website has my favorite profiles for fish. They include things like recommended minimum tank size and average adult length for fish. I highly recommend looking up the fish you've acquired in their profiles.


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Welcome to TFK, Lake! 

Happy you found us - sorry for such bad news. . . :/

I hope that once the Ich is cleared, you are able to re-home these fish so that they can get proper care elsewhere. Most fish shops will take returns, though depending on how long it's been since you brought the fish home, you may not get a refund or store credit. It can't hurt to ask! 

While you're at it, ask if you can bring in future offspring from the guppies (if you choose to keep them!). As Koi mentioned, those little ones are very likely to just keep on coming - the beauty of live-bearering fish! They are an excellent choice for a beginner, though - and full of personality!

Another site that I'd recommend to you is AQAdvisor.com. It isn't fool-proof, but I've found it to be an excellent resource to use when setting up a new tank - or trying to figure out compatibility on an existing one. Just put in the tank size (be sure to choose the 'tall' option - length does make a very big difference!) and you'll get more details on what was mentioned above.

Many of us stumbled in here after having gotten started on the wrong foot - and went on to build thriving community tanks with all we've learned since. I'm one of them - hopefully you will be, too!

Best of luck on the tough decisions to come - and please do keep us posted on how things are going over there!


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## lake dweller (Jan 30, 2014)

Thank you everyone. Its gotten worse.
As of this morning-

All the guppies have died
1 of the loaches are missing
the bala shark and angelica cat died

All that's left is the 2 Gouramis, Angel fish, red tail shark, betta, 1 loach (and it doesnt look to good), the pleco and lace cat. 

We had 2 more Neon Tetras but they died. They all hung with the guppies.

We do 1/5 to 1/4 water changes weekly. We have well water with a water softener.
Until about a week ago, around the time the fry arrived, everything seemed ok. 

Monday I noticed the silver dollar looked like it was covered in bubbles. THen we noticed they were spots. We called the pet store and they said slowly raise the temp to 82 (it was at 76) and add aquarium salt 1 tablespoon per gallon. So we did Wednesday.

And then everyone started dying.



The betta and red tail just hide together, ans does the pleco and lace cat.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

If I were you, I'd see about returning all of the fish and starting fresh, cleaning the tank and cycling it properly. A lot of people feel guppies and other livebearers are good beginner fish but I personally don't just because they will quickly overstock your tank. Do you have an API Master Liquid Test Kit? It's a necessity for keeping fish.


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## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

The AQAdvisor is a great way to get a feel for what can go in what sized tank. Take note that a "Pleco" will blow your numbers thru the roof and they have NO place in a small tank or tall tank as they need room to turn around. They grow to 24 inches long. Even the old beliefs of 1" of fish per gallon is NO longer valid. 
The reason many of these fish should never be kept together is they require different amounts of space for one thing... but they need to be kept in their own "best conditions", closest to what they experience in nature. (Even tho they are likely captive bred, they still live in different ways) Meaning a Goldfish can live at colder temperatures than a Betta which needs temps up near 80... therefore would never be housed together. And Neither should be kept in a bowl or vase on a table. That is way too small for either fish and way too cold for the Betta. 
Betta and Gourami and both labyrinth fish and breathe off the surface, but can get into nasty fights and should never be housed together. One will NOT win. 
The quantity of fish you had are all eating and pooping since you got them... BIG 50% *daily* water changes would be the only way thru this and be sure you are using dechlorinator if you are on city water. Be sure to get yourself a Liquid testing kit when budget allows. You can quickly determine your water quality. We'll walk you thru what all this means. You will also need a thermometer!! Water changes must match temperatures. 
At least this is a 20 gallon.. a good place to start.... much better than the starter tanks that are only 10 gallons for sure. 
Get yourself a bottle of Prime water conditioner if you don't have it... A very small bottle goes a LONG way... but it neutralizes Ammonia, Nitrites and NitrAtes too. One cap does 50 gallons... it will last you awhile. It can also be used at 5 X the amount in emergencies!

We can turn this around. Don't give up... sadly you are learning the same lessons we've all learned... the hard way. Slow and steady. Don't listen to the LFS Local Fish Store... do your research. If you don't... you get to deal with the "fall out"... not the Fish Store anyway and that hurts the soul. They just want to sell fish and make money sadly and don't consider the loss of life... and the ache in your heart.


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## lake dweller (Jan 30, 2014)

Thank you Flint.

My husband wants to get another tank, transfer all the fish that survive to the new tank, clean everything in the old tank, and try it again. We would use the smaller tank for the smaller fish (guppy and tetra) later. 

He really wants Clown Loach, Angel fish, and another Silver Dollar. I really love the Gourami and guppies.He told me has had good luck in the past with tanks. I have had ok luck with one tank and lousy luck with another. Neither of us have had fish in over 5 years.

If we would have left the guppies in the community, I know the others would have kept the population under control because they kept trying to eat the fry when they were in the "playpen". Could that have stressed out the others to much? It is just so odd that everyone seemed fine until this last weekend. we have only lost 3 in 2 months and one of those had jumped out. How long would it take to have issues show up? 

We have ammonia testing strips , but we will look for the kit you recommend. Plus we turned up the temp to 84. We don't want to move it up to fast do we?

Its very sad, we really get attached to these guys!


PS- Congrats on the daughter to be! Never had a daughter, But I had 6 sons! Children are such a blessing!


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## lake dweller (Jan 30, 2014)

Everyone is so great! Thank you! I feel better knowing we are not alone or the only one to have issues.

We don't have city water, its softened well water. 

Should I leave the LED light on or off? Should we not feed for a few days?

I am wondering what is a good brand of readily available food, too. We have been using Tetramin. And just what _is_ the proper amount and frequency to feed? Every body we talk to has a different recommendation! We feed a little pinch twice a day. Alternating flake and dried bloodworms. 

We are looking into a 55 gallon soon. We just need to find the space/$$ for it. 

I won't give up yet! Thank you for being here!

(Our betta is a female, btw)


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## Poleren (Jan 24, 2014)

lake dweller said:


> Well we have learned we should have learned more before we started this adventure. But, we already have the tank set and stocked. We have a 20 gal high. 2 dwarf gourami , 2 guppies and their 7 week old babies (separated in the floating breeder), 1 neon, pleco, 2 clown loach, angelica cat, lace cat, red tail and bala shark, 1 female betta, and an angel fish left. We lost our silver dollar, a male guppy, and a neon in the last 2 days. Our tank has been set since early December.
> 
> We have Ich. We brought the temp to 82 over 2 days slowly and added aquarium salt.
> 
> ...


That tank is WAY too overstocked, that Pleco needs to go. You need 75 gallons for just a pleco.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

> My husband wants to get another tank, transfer all the fish that survive to the new tank, clean everything in the old tank, and try it again. We would use the smaller tank for the smaller fish (guppy and tetra) later.


You're gonna need a BIG tank, we're talking over 100 gallons. Neon Tetra aren't suitable to live in a 10 gallon, unfortunately. It doesn't provide a shoal enough room to swim like they need to.



> He really wants Clown Loach, Angel fish, and another Silver Dollar. I really love the Gourami and guppies.He told me has had good luck in the past with tanks. I have had ok luck with one tank and lousy luck with another. Neither of us have had fish in over 5 years.


Angelfish and Silver Dollars aren't good to cohabitate, the Silver Dollars will likely cause the Angels problems because of their fins. Silver Dollars also need to be kept in groups of 6 or more, they are shoaling fish. Angels can be kept in a mated pair in a 75 gallon or you can keep 5 in a 75 gallon. That's a call on your part but if they aren't a pair, you need at least 5. The Gourami can't live together, one will have to go or you'll need yet another tank. The guppies can be kept in the 20 gallon, as stated previously.



> If we would have left the guppies in the community, I know the others would have kept the population under control because they kept trying to eat the fry when they were in the "playpen". Could that have stressed out the others to much? It is just so odd that everyone seemed fine until this last weekend. we have only lost 3 in 2 months and one of those had jumped out. How long would it take to have issues show up?


Issues with what? Aggression? Not long with your stock. Expect a disaster any day now.



> We have ammonia testing strips , but we will look for the kit you recommend. Plus we turned up the temp to 84. We don't want to move it up to fast do we?


Test strips are unreliable due to inaccuracy. An API Master Test Kit is what we all use and swear by. They are a little pricey, but unless you check your water 2x a day everyday, you won't need a new one until it expires in 3 years. You should move the temp up no more than 2 degrees a day. 



> Its very sad, we really get attached to these guys!


I know it's hard, we've all been there. Sometimes we just need to do what's best for the animals in question, though.




> PS- Congrats on the daughter to be! Never had a daughter, But I had 6 sons! Children are such a blessing!


Thank you! This is my husband and I's first. It's been a scary experience, especially because nobody is telling me what I'm supposed to be feeling and what I need to be doing for her, but we're figuring it out and I'm almost done! 34 weeks 1 day today. 6 more days and I can come off bedrest (I was having contractions) and I'll be walking a good mile a day, if not more. I'm ready for her to come, I am undergoing medical treatments and I don't like that she is in there being potentially affected by it.



> Should I leave the LED light on or off? Should we not feed for a few days?


I would leave the light off to reduce stress. Are you asking about not feeding to help keep your parameters in check?



> I am wondering what is a good brand of readily available food, too. We have been using Tetramin. And just what is the proper amount and frequency to feed? Every body we talk to has a different recommendation! We feed a little pinch twice a day. Alternating flake and dried bloodworms.


New Life Spectrum (NLS) is a favorite in the fishkeeping community. You shouldn't feed bloodworms everyday, more so as a treat. General rule of thumb is what your fish will eat in 5 minutes.



> We are looking into a 55 gallon soon. We just need to find the space/$$ for it. I won't give up yet! Thank you for being here!


Unfortunately, as I stated in my other post, a 55 won't cut it with all of those fish. The 20 won't last until you can afford the 55, either. It'd really be in the fishes best interest for you to rehome or return them until you can get a large tank and then we could help you stock it to your liking. As we've all said - WE'VE BEEN THERE!! Everyone has to start somewhere and unfortunately pet stores don't properly educate, they just want their money's worth.



> (Our betta is a female, btw)


Petsmart sells a 2.5 gallon tank for $15, a small filter would be about $10, a heater is about $10 and a light isn't necessary at first, or you could use a desk lamp. It would be an appropriate size for a single betta fish. It would solve that bit of the problem, at least!


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

here you are 
what a sad sad situation you are in…however….don't give up
you are in very good hands,and very well taken care of…
i sincerely hope you can pull something out of this.
we all start somewhere ,and i for one made horrendous mistakes in the beginning!!!
if i can pull through so can you. :-D


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

I would move the temp up to 86 asap, the parasites breed much much faster at 84, and is thus capable of killing the fish much faster  at 86, they reach a limit and start to die off due to being unable to keep up with the reproductive rate demanded by the temperature


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

I agree with Flint. If you want to keep your current fish, you'll need a tank much larger than a 55 gal. This is why we recommend returning what you have and starting over. You'll be rather stressed to provide what all of these fish need. 

I know your husband likes the clown loach and the silver dollar, but those are big fish with big requirements. You wouldn't get a horse if you lived in a townhouse, would you? If you like the general shape of those fish, we can recommend you fish that look like them, but don't get as massive. We're not joking when we say these fish get too large for a normal sized tank. 



This is Marge. She's almost a foot long and lives in a 6 foot tank. This is what clown loaches grow up to be. Silver dollars will be like CD's swimming in a tank. Since they are shoaling, they also need a 6 foot tank to accommodate all of those fish. 

The angelfish in the 55 is another story. It's a great idea. There are a few people on the forum that keep angelfish shoals in a 55 gal. You do have to work your other stock around the angelfish. You can't have other semi-aggressive fish like gourami or fish small enough to eat like neons, but there are plenty of other options. 

As to your well water, using softened water in aquariums can prove to be an issue. We've had members before that had odd issues because of the very strange mix of ions. If you can bypass the softener for water changes, that would be best.


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## lake dweller (Jan 30, 2014)

Thank You everyone!

I think we are over the worse. No more losses since Saturday.

We have the 2 dwarf gouramis, the angelfish, lady betta, a neon tetra and the pleco left ( a giggle for you, when I spell check plecostomus it recommends Pentecostals!:roll. The tetra and pleco still have spots and are quarantined. We cleaned everything in the 20, added the Prime, replaced the bio bag , temp came up to 86 this weekend, and did a 50% water change . We always use a digital cooking thermometer to check the replacement water.

We picked up the biggest tank we could afford and had room for- a 36 gallon bow front 30x15x21. Our space is limited for area that doesn't have big temp fluctuations. We will have his and hers tanks. The 20 will be the hers. The angel, neon and pleco (if they live) will go it his 36. The 20 has a Whisper 20 filter, and air stone, and an Aqueon 100w heater.

So.....

I love my powder blue Gourami and betta. The flame Gourami just started picking on the Betta so he may go bye bye. My mom wants a fish now so would the 1 Gourami work in a 10 gallon for her? I need suggestions on what is the best mix and numbers for the 20. I would like my guppies back. I never thought I would like them so much! Plus, what is a good choice for a bottom feeder/algae eater? Are they really necessary? 


Also, I have 2 decorations that have hollow spots up in them the fish like to get into and my husband thinks they can get stuck. If they can get in them, shouldn't they be able to get themselves out? We found the missing loach in one.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

> We picked up the biggest tank we could afford and had room for- a 36 gallon bow front 30x15x21. Our space is limited for area that doesn't have big temp fluctuations. We will have his and hers tanks. The 20 will be the hers. The angel, neon and pleco (if they live) will go it his 36. The 20 has a Whisper 20 filter, and air stone, and an Aqueon 100w heater.


The pleco will get too large for the 36, how about exchanging him for a bristlenose pleco if you really want one?



> I love my powder blue Gourami and betta. The flame Gourami just started picking on the Betta so he may go bye bye. My mom wants a fish now so would the 1 Gourami work in a 10 gallon for her? I need suggestions on what is the best mix and numbers for the 20. I would like my guppies back. I never thought I would like them so much! Plus, what is a good choice for a bottom feeder/algae eater? Are they really necessary?


Betta and Gourami aren't compatible, you will likely end up with one killing the other. The Gourami would do fine in a 10 gallon alone but will most likely be aggressive to any other tankmates in a tank that small. Bottom feeders/Algae eaters aren't necessary at all. If you want one, look into nerite snails, (they come in patterns!) bristlenose pleco and otos. Otos can only be added to established tanks, however.




> Also, I have 2 decorations that have hollow spots up in them the fish like to get into and my husband thinks they can get stuck. If they can get in them, shouldn't they be able to get themselves out? We found the missing loach in one.


Fish actually can get themselves stuck in ornaments, if you have doubt, take it out. ;-)


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

Hi! Welcome to the forum.

I'd just like to chime in with agreement to what everyone else has posted. You have some major stocking issues, and if you want a successful tank with fish that will be comfortable and live long healthy lives, you're going to need to rehome some fish. Especially the pleco. Those fish are literal poop machines. They eat constantly, and so are constantly pooping. 

This in turn leads to a lot of ammonia building up in the tank, which affects your bioload. Not even a single common pleco can be housed in a 36 gallon, as they have such high rates of pooping + they will grow huge. It is a myth that fish will only grow to the size of their containers. (I could put a puppy in a dog carrier and leave him there. Feed and water him in there, and never take him out. he will still grow. His growth will be misshapen and possibly stunted, but he cannot stop the growth of his own body.)










Silver dollars also get huge, and unless you have a 100gallon+ tank, they will not be comfortable. They literally look like CDs when fully grown. 

Sorry for this bad news, and I understand it may contradict your previous experiences with fishkeeping. But properly caring for fish can be a delicate process, and requires a lot of thought and responsibility on the part of the owner. Not all fish are the same. Some fish prefer quiet, still, acidic waters, and other fish prefer the fast flow of a river and demand the cleanliness that provides. Some fish need a lot of space and will become violent to other fish if denied this, and some fish are so timid that they can die of stress if not housed with similar tankmates.

It's a bit of work to perfect a happy tank, with an ecosystem and fish that can inhabit a tank together. But it's so, so worth it to see a perfectly balanced aquarium.

I wish you luck. The majority of us have started off on the same rocky foot as you and made grievous errors that cost the lives of our fish, but we've come to this community and grown from it.


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## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

This forum is a great place to learn about all aspects of fishkeeping. I am forever greatful to the awesome people here who have helped me to leaen so much about this fascinating hobby. 
Welcome to the forum!
For your 36 gal, think about kuhli loaches instead of clowns. Just remember that loaches are very sensetive to unstable water quality, so please wait till your tank is well established before adding loaches. And if you add fish before the tank is cycled, you willhave to do frequent watre changes to keep the fish alive. As you stand now I would reccommend 25% daily changes, especially if your fish show spots or finrot, fungus or fuzz. In pure water and healthy stock levels most fish will not be harmed by bacteria or fungus... in bad water or overcrowded conditions its a huge issue.
Also, hard water makes better aquarium water than soft water, especially if it is artificialy softened with salt. Bypass the softner for your change water if its possible.
Good luck with your tanks!


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## lake dweller (Jan 30, 2014)

Thank you everyone again. I am passing the info to my husband, the 36 will be for him, the 20 is mine.

Well, after days of everything going good, the angelfish died. He was fine this morning and ate his breakfast but I just found him floating.  Only 2 dwarf gouramis, 1 neon, lady betta and pleco made it thru.

I do not want to EVER go through this again! So help me stock the 20 gallon please. I would like to keep the blue gourami, I have always wanted one. Lets work around him, ok? How about a bunch of guppies?

As for the soft water, ours has such a high iron content it turned my hair orange before the softener. I can imagine that would be a bigger issue for the fish than the softened water, wouldn't it?

The kuhli loach look to much like a snake for my husband to keep. What looks like the clown loach and have that fun active personality? tiger barbs? He will have the 36 for his. He is looking to replace about 10 of the fish we lost this weekend for his. I have passed on your heart-felt caution and concerns. He is confident he can make them work as he has in the past.

Are Veiled Angelfish smaller than the other angels? I never saw them before last week. 

I will see if we can take the little waste factory (pleco) back. I'm not sure if they will take returns but I will try. 

I just want this to work. If this happens again, I will have a couple tanks for sale.............


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## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

Don't give up on your tanks! The first six months with a new setup is by far the hardest. After that things usually stabilize as long as you follow basic procedures like water changes and regular feeding schedule. Actually after the first two monthes things are NORMALY a lot simpler. So hang in there! My oldest tank has been up for 17 years continuously with only minor weekly maintainence.
The key is patience. If you fully cycle your tank before restocking you should be ok as long as your tapwater is suitable for water changes.
As far as your plans for a blue gourami, I would say great choice... they are very tough and interesting fish in addition to being very beautiful, but they are also quite aggressive and can grow fairly large, so guppies might not be a good choice for tankmates.


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## lake dweller (Jan 30, 2014)

OK, I am not giving up yet.
It was just devastating to have had dead fish every day. Especially when I lost all my baby guppies. 

Thank you for your kind words everyone. 

I know the gourami are aggressive. They both are dwarfs though, they shouldn't get too big should they? I read about 4 inches. 

Also, if I put a floating breeder plant in the main tank for the guppy fry, what are the chances of survival with the betta and gourami in there? The separate floating "crib" was a major hassle last time.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

> I do not want to EVER go through this again! So help me stock the 20 gallon please. I would like to keep the blue gourami, I have always wanted one. Lets work around him, ok? How about a bunch of guppies?


1 Dwarf Gourami
5 MALE Guppies
10 Zebra Danio

What's going on with the betta?



> The kuhli loach look to much like a snake for my husband to keep. What looks like the clown loach and have that fun active personality? tiger barbs? He will have the 36 for his. He is looking to replace about 10 of the fish we lost this weekend for his. I have passed on your heart-felt caution and concerns. He is confident he can make them work as he has in the past.


I'm sorry to say, but your husband is going to kill all ten of those fish if he does that. How about some short-bodied loaches like yo-yos or boitas? If he goes and gets these fish again, not only will they begin killing eachother, but it will be too much for a new tank to handle and the water quality will kill them. The tank needs to cycle first.



> Are Veiled Angelfish smaller than the other angels? I never saw them before last week.


Veiled Angelfish get just as big as other angels.



> I will see if we can take the little waste factory (pleco) back. I'm not sure if they will take returns but I will try.


Even just "donating" him will be better for him and you in the long run.


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

I understand how hard it is. These first few months with fish are the worst. You will lose more fish in those months than almost any other time. If you stick with it, it gets better. It really does. 

Flint gave you a pretty good stock for your 20 gal. Personally I'd do 10 tetra like x-ray tetra instead as they are a little more calm than danio. Gourami tend to like calmer tank mates as they can be pretty shy themselves. 

As for your husband, since he doesn't like the kuhli loaches, he could get zebra loaches. They have the same shape and playful temperment as clown loaches, but they don't get nearly as large. They are suitable for a 36 gal tank.


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## lake dweller (Jan 30, 2014)

Thank you for all the ideas !

Flint: I still have the betta. She will go in the other tank if/when the gourami gets cranky. The blue leaves her alone but the flame, which will go to my mom, does chase her a little. She hangs out with the neon.

You don't think I should get any female guppies?

The store said they will take the pleco but "it wont go back in their tanks" which means probably euthanasia. We are trying to find some place else. There are 6 pet stores in our area, but we are 30 minutes from the closest two. We have developed quite a routine to transport them home safely.

Koimaiden: I do like the tetra better. Can you mix different types happily? I thought about getting a couple more neons to join the one we have left. Then I could get about 5 of a different variety. 

What do you think of my "fish watcher"? Our avatar is our dog Carrie, in front of our house, in the Sunfish fish beds that we are overrun with every year. She watches the tanks too! The fish come running when we go out side ever since we started throwing out our old bread. They will now eat from our hand!


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## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

Our LFS takes in all the Plecos for the winter and keeps them in one big huge tank... then sells them back out each spring to all the pond owners in the area... almost like a Pleco rental of sorts. And they can never get enough on hand to serve the ponds in spring. It's cold up here... the Goldfish and Koi can winter over if the pond is deep enough but the Plecos cannot. Who wants to house a monster foot long ++ Pleco over winter in their home in a tank?? 
So...It's finding the right place for him for sure. Good luck.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

As a beginner that isn't comfortable euthanizing fish or financially able to get a larger tank, I definately don't suggest females. You'll be overstocked in two months easy. I'm glad you're looking for another place to take him. He shouldn't be euthanized but he definately needs a new home. You could have two groups of 6 smaller tetra species rather than a larger group of one but they do need their own kind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lake dweller (Jan 30, 2014)

That sounds great! I will be looking this weekend most likely. Not sure if I will get anyone yet, but I will be on the hunt!


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

Tetra can mix rather well together. Well the commonly found beginner ones can. Getting a shoal of 6-8 neons and then another shoal of 6-8 would be a great stock for your tank. Glowlight tetra and X-ray tetra are two rather hardy species. I like the look of the glowlights best. 

As Flint said, female guppies mean babies. And babies means an overstocked tank. Too many fish and disease issues arise. Best leave the females out until you want to breed guppies! 

Your pup is quite the cutie! She looks like a lab. Sunfish are pretty neat fish. I'm surprised they don't chase you away from their nests!


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## crazy4fish (Dec 31, 2007)

did your husband ever end up getting any fish for his 36g?


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## lake dweller (Jan 30, 2014)

Thanks everyone. 
Ok- We did get the fish this weekend. A few Saturday, and the guppies yesterday. The plecostomus is returned to the store. 
So what we have is, In the 20 tall: 

The powder blue dwarf gourami, Flame gourami going to my moms this week, 2 long fin leopard danios (and are they hyper!), and 6 guppies.

In the 36 bow front:

The lady betta, 3 neons, 5 guppies, 2 angelfish, 2 clown loachs, a bala and a redtail shark (and NO silver dollars) As they grow, we will get a larger tank size. 

I will keep you informed. Also, I have some various seashells from the craft ( not pet) section. Would it be safe to add them to the 20 g tank? 



thekoimaiden said:


> Your pup is quite the cutie! She looks like a lab. Sunfish are pretty neat fish. I'm surprised they don't chase you away from their nests!


Thank You! Carrie is a flat-coated retriever. She just turned 11 in January. I think with all the beds we get in the summer, it looks like the surface of the moon, the sunfish are only worried about chasing the other fish and avoiding the bass. I caught a 17 inch bass only about 6 feet from the shore 2 years ago. She was full of roe, so I sent her back to make more!


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

> The plecostomus is returned to the store.


Very happy to hear this.

So what we have is, In the 20 tall: 



> The powder blue dwarf gourami, Flame gourami going to my moms this week, 2 long fin leopard danios (and are they hyper!), and 6 guppies.


You need at least 4 more danios. They are shoaling fish. 



> In the 36 bow front:
> 
> The lady betta, 3 neons, 5 guppies, 2 angelfish, 2 clown loachs, a bala and a redtail shark (and NO silver dollars) As they grow, we will get a larger tank size.


I'm sorry to say this tank is on its way down again.... Waay over and improperly stocked. Clown loaches, as we've said, need to be in groups of 6 or more, the same with the bala shark and neons. The angles are most likely going to eat the neons as they grow and the redtail is going to start getting aggressive in a tank of that size with that stock. :-( 



> I will keep you informed. Also, I have some various seashells from the craft ( not pet) section. Would it be safe to add them to the 20 g tank?


These are likely to alter your water chemistry, I personally wouldn't.




My biggest suggestion at this point due to the stocking so quickly and over/improperly stocking, is that you go purchase two large bottles of Tetra SafeStart and put an entire container in each tank. You should also invest in a large bottle of Seachem Prime. You're going to need it. I wish you the best but that 36 is set up to fail and both tanks were stocked much too quickly without being properly cycled. You can either try to cycle with TSS or do it the old fashioned way (IE daily water changes to keep ammonia down) but these fish won't do well in an uncycled tank, regardless of the aggression and stocking issues.


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## lake dweller (Jan 30, 2014)

Flint said:


> Very happy to hear this.
> Me too!
> 
> You need at least 4 more danios. They are shoaling fish.
> ...


As for cycling, We have the Prime and a safe start from Aqueon that we used. I looked up everything I could on cycling before we got the fish and did what I could. The 20 has had the 2 gouramis , betta, and neon in all along before I moved the neon and betta Friday and added 2 danios and 2 guppies Saturday.

Should I add the prime every time I do a partial daily water change in the 36? I _am_ trying.........


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## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

YES is the short answer. Add Prime with ALL water changes. If you are adding tap water that has chlorine in it... them you need to neutralize that chlorine. 
The long answer is still YES... but how much Prime? Some say treat the volume of water that you are adding. Others say treat the volume of the tank. Either way, Prime can be used up to 5 X the volume (in an Emergency) so a 20% water change which is 1/5th of the tank would still be fine if you treated the full tank, 5 X the dose. I don't do that. But I am generous with it. If I spill I don't care because I know I'm safe with an overage. 
And lastly, It also neutralizes for 24 hours, Ammonia, Ammonium, Nitrites and Nitrates, I do believe, which is enough time for the good bacteria associated with each stage to catch up. 
It doesn't hurt to test and know what your tap water has in it. And be careful of your city doing a chlorine dump in spring/summer, something to do with bacterial blooms and algae in the water source. They won't tell you it's been/being done... they all do it. But if you EVER turn on the water and SMELL the chlorine instantly, or more than normal... bump up the Prime (up to 5x), skip the water change for a few days/a week, or let that water sit out in a bucket for 24 hours before using. (This one scares me, my biggest fear, because it IS possible to kill your tank from nothing you did wrong.) Remember it is only things done "big" and "fast" that can hurt a tank and your fish. (Big temperature change, Big PH shift, Big amount of Chlorine, Scrubbing out the entire tank (ya I used to do that!) stuff like that). Think and Go slow and cautious and in more moderate amounts so as to not be felt as so drastic a change.


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## lake dweller (Jan 30, 2014)

SeaHorse said:


> YES is the short answer. Add Prime with ALL water changes. If you are adding tap water that has chlorine in it... then you need to neutralize that chlorine.
> The long answer is still YES... but how much Prime? Some say treat the volume of water that you are adding. Others say treat the volume of the tank. Either way, Prime can be used up to 5 X the volume (in an Emergency) so a 20% water change which is 1/5th of the tank would still be fine if you treated the full tank, 5 X the dose.
> And lastly, It also neutralizes for 24 hours, Ammonia, Ammonium, Nitrites and Nitrates, I do believe, which is enough time for the good bacteria associated with each stage to catch up.
> It doesn't hurt to test and know what your tap water has in it. Think and Go slow and cautious and in more moderate amounts so as to not be felt as so drastic a change.



Thanks for the input. I will do just that. I am careful to make small changes like temp changes over several days and not change the filter the same day I clean the gravel and sides of the tank and all. 

My water is well water, softened. VERY high iron , as in orange sink and hair high, if it isn't filtered through the softener but it tests fine when filtered.. No chlorine issues. We checked that out before beginning the tanks. 

I am learning.....


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## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

Your water softner will exchange magnesium and iron for sodium. Water will be softer but I'm not sure what effect the extra sodium ions will have in your tank. Probaly you'll be fine but you might want to research.
Good luck!


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## Snoeflayke (Mar 3, 2013)

I'm glad your tank(s) are doing better now.

As others have said, your husband is still WAY overstocking his tank.

I'll be blunt. I would not have sold you those fish for the 36g.
Maybe the angelfish and the RT shark, but I would have recommended getting that tank cycled first.


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

We're all learning - never stop asking questions! You seem to be doing the best you can to correct what was a very bad situation when you found us here - kudos for that!

It's sad that you can't convince your husband to stock his tank properly, but I've been around here long enough to know that some people _won't_ be convinced - no matter what evidence you provide. This seems particularly true with those who have stocked poorly in the past, and feel that their "experience" to ignore the needs of their animals.  You (and we!) have given him the best input possible, hopefully he'll make the necessary changes before those little clowns become stunted, or before the 'shark' becomes agressive. . .

It sounds like you're doing your best to get back on the right track with your tank - kudos to you for taking the time to read through, and learn from, all of the fantastic input you've gotten on this thread!


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

> How many danios would be acceptable? 4 total? I dont want to overstock!


You need to have a school of at least 6 if you want to keep them.



> The lone surviving neon (who teamed up with the 2 new ones right away) and the Betta went into the 36 Friday. Wouldn't adding more fish be an issue? The angel fish are about 1.5 inches each now, he feels we have a year before there should be any issues.(?) He will consider another bala, the one we have was with the clowns at the pet store and "dances" with them. (Our house is only 900 sq ft and It is beginning to like to have the fish he wants safe and happy,we will be wall to wall tanks!)


Adding more fish will be an issue but the neons won't be happy in a group of 3, they also need at least 6. The angel will be big enough to eat the neons in a few months if the betta or shark don't get them first. Are you aware how large Bala sharks get? They get bigger than the clown loaches. 13-16 inches and won't do well on their own due to the schooling factor. To keep JUST the bala and clowns happy in the proper sized schools, you will need at least a 6x3x2 foot tank (280 gallons) You could keep the angel in here with them as well but we're talking at least double filtration capacity to handle the bioload.



> All I have ever really wanted is a blue Gourami, a couple guppies and a female betta. I guess I can rehome everyone to make his fish happy .


Why don't you get the betta a tank of her own? 2.5 gallon tanks, as I've said, are 14 dollars at Petsmart and an Azoo Palm Filter is 8 dollars on Dr. Fosters and Smith.



> As for cycling, We have the Prime and a safe start from Aqueon that we used. I looked up everything I could on cycling before we got the fish and did what I could. The 20 has had the 2 gouramis , betta, and neon in all along before I moved the neon and betta Friday and added 2 danios and 2 guppies Saturday.


It takes 2-6 weeks to properly cycle a tank. Aqueon and Tetra Safe Start are not the same thing. 



> Should I add the prime every time I do a partial daily water change in the 36? I _am_ trying.........


Yes. I suggest that you test the water in the tank every day and do 50-75% water changes if you have any ammonia or nitrite readings or if your nitrates are above 20. Check again after the water change to make sure they are gone.


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