# Help with controlling crazy Ich problem



## Nanners (Mar 22, 2014)

Hello, I have an Ich outbreak in my 5 gallon tank and I have been trying a bunch of treatments for a long time, and its stronger than ever it seems. This tank is having many problems, and its most likely my fault as I am new to all of this.

First, my favorite guppy had tail rot, to treat it as simply as I could I kept the water conditions as well as I could, low ammonia for an uncycled tank not over feeding and approx. 10% water changes ~every 3 days. Only got worse, scared of using heavy duty medicine, I got melafix, used it as directed for the 7 days, his tail kept falling apart. 

Then I used API fungus powder, reluctantly, and just got done with the full treatment yesterday when I did a 25% change and gravel vacuum as directed. Fin rot is gone, yay. 

But unfortunately as I am new to this, I didn't set up a quarantine tank (I had no other fish in the new tank) when I got the new guppies, I got 3 male guppies and 1 corey catfish all at the same same time, and they all had ich from the store(I didnt notice it). This was happening with the fin rot as well. This is a little messy to read, so I will try to clear it up a little, new tank established, no fish, let rest with a filter and plants for 2 days, went and get all the fish to put in, fin rot happened and seemed more deadly, but ich was present at start.

I bumped up the temp to 87/88 F, added some salt, and it is terrible. Its been like this for about 8 days. The ich is on their bodies and fins and its taking over. I know the heat treatment only works while the ich is swimming, but why are they getting worse? Do I just need to be patient, or get some ich treatment? I also have a nerite snail, just to throw that in there. But please help with some advice, Im doing my best here and really only care about help and not scolding for things Ive done wrong.

Thank you


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## Sylverclaws (Jul 16, 2012)

I've never heard of ich not responding positively to salt and heat. o-o Are you sure it's ich? There are a few nasties out there that can look similar to ich and wont respond to the same treatments. 

Can you get us a photo, or even a video? =)

I wish I could tell you how to fix it. >< But ich tends to respond by breeding faster and then starting to be less in the tank after a mere few days of heat and salt, and if yours is worse it may be something else, or a type of ich that is strong to such treatment(that's a guess, I know there is more than one type of Ich, but I do not know if there are any strong to salt and heat). 

Try cleaning out about 15-20% of the tank every day(I would say a tad more if we knew -for sure- it was Ich), add in something to help their slime coats like Stress Coat+. You will clean out some of the nasty if it's ich or a parasite that can live in the water for a time without a host. At least some of the dead if there are any. 

As far as stocking goes...well, not right, nope, but it certainly shouldn't be killing the bioload. Problem is your cory is likely stressed out being all by himself, they're extremely sweet and social fishies. You CAN get rid of the ich even under these circumstances, and you really must before getting more(you need a bigger tank before you get more and wont want to pass yucky ich to it!). 

So if I were you, if you have the ability to do this, get yourself a nice 20 gallon long tank and start cycling it while your current buddies are being treated...a five gallon would make a good QT tank for smaller fish like that if you have future problems, clean it and keep it cycled. Or make plans to find the cory a new home once he's fixed up. Sand substrate is best for cories so they don't hurt their non-armored bellies and their delicate barbels when looking for food. Rounded rocks may work well too. Five gallons is just too small for cories, even the dwarf species, and it's stressful with that and without a good group. Your guppies shouldn't be kept in anything smaller than ten gallons either. If you can't get a bigger tank, and I know some people either don't have room or just can't afford it, you may want to consider another type of fish. A single male betta would be fine in a five gallon tank. I'm really iffy about schoolers or other fish in such small tanks myself, but you -may- be able to do 3-4 male endlers livebearers, much smaller than guppies as males usually only get 1/2 inch to 1/3 inch or so. The real endllers anyways, N-classes and not guppy hybrids who are larger and normally less...nice. 

Get rid of the ich, find a way o kill that stress, and your fish should be good to go...we just need to know if it's really ich so we can make better suggestions to cure it.


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## Nanners (Mar 22, 2014)

Sylverclaws said:


> I've never heard of ich not responding positively to salt and heat. o-o Are you sure it's ich? There are a few nasties out there that can look similar to ich and wont respond to the same treatments.
> 
> Can you get us a photo, or even a video? =)
> 
> I wish I could tell you how to fix it. >< But ich tends to respond by breeding faster and then starting to be less in the tank after a mere few days of heat and salt, and if yours is worse it may be something else, or a type of ich that is strong to such treatment(that's a guess, I know there is more than one type of Ich, but I do not know if there are any strong to salt and heat).


I suppose I could get a picture if they would sit still for a moment. Ive dealt with Ich before so Im pretty familiar with it, and heat fixed it in a separate tank, there is something about this one that is strange. As soon as I added salt to this tank, two of them were covered with it, it looks like snow on them, and its been about 5 days, I know it gets worse before it gets better, but this is hundreds of times worse than I have seen. Its the classic white spots on the fins and tails, but its on their bodies, Ive never seen that before, and I caught this early. Im just at a loss of what to do, I dont think 2 of them will live through the night.


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## Sylverclaws (Jul 16, 2012)

Oh, oh oh! Hey I had that happen once, mistook it for ich. It was velvet, oddly enough. Or at least was assumed to be velvet when I put that up asking for help. Couldn't see most of it but spots like ich, but when the salt covered them it looked liek they were covered in crystals and I only put in maybe a half dose...is that what you meant? Or meant covered in ich? lol 

First off though, neither one of those fish do well with salt, guppies can tolerate it pretty well(people say they can do fine in brackish settings, I'm not so sure, my guppies never do well when salt is added, they get a little blah...most do anyways) but cories are delicate to it. Not recommended to use salt with cories or plecos, or other scaleless fish. They absorb it too fast and it's bad for them. 

Try just using the heat method, clean out all the salt and do a large water change. Very large, like 60-75% or so. Clean and heat may or may not help, but if salt isn't doing it after eight days, plus you also said you tried a bunch of treatments which is stressful to fish, stick to one...this could help you out. Try stress coat+ to help repair their slime coats, they may be able to fight it off with the heat either stunting and slamming a parasite or fungus, or making ich go faster than it likes.


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## Nanners (Mar 22, 2014)

I just looked up velvet, and it dosent look quite like that, just a dense amount of ich on them.
I added about half of what the recomended dose of salt was, and the corey does not seem effected by it at all, none of the fish did when it wasent as bad. Im doing the heat method now so I suppose all I can do is wait, and by other treatments, I ment just heat, heat and clean water, heat salt and clean water. Everything I could think of that was more natural. I was thinking about tress coat, how about melafix? That is what I have on hand right now. 

Thank you


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## Sylverclaws (Jul 16, 2012)

Melafix may be a bit hard on your cories since they have a labyrinth organ(If I'm not mistaken, they do gulp air from up top), but it should be ok...it's a might really if he's real sick. Make sure he can get up for air when he needs to and put in an airstone for extra oxygen while you have heat. Melafix will keep infections down, but if the water is kept clean you really don't need it. Especially since you previously had salt which is an antibacterial as well. Pimifix is a maybe, but again same thing with possible issues, and also with clean water and heat it's not too likely their damage will get any fungal or bacterial infections. Best you can do is watch them to make sure none of that starts. 

The best medicine is clean water. Clean water means little to no chance of getting bacterial or fungal infections but it's not zero. Your fish seem tough since they've survived this long, provided some extra help I hope they'll all be ok. Clean out some water daily to remove dead or extra ich(in a five gallon I'd normally say 5-10%, but since you have a likely stressed cory and three guppies in there instead of just one fish), I'd say to do maybe a 15-20%, more if you feel comfortable with it or if someone more experienced with it says you should. That with heat, lessen any extra bioload and filth that may be in there. 

Stress coat will help repair damage and lessen stress, it should be good for them all and help keep infections down since it helps strengthen their protective coats. 

I'm rooting for you, I hope someone who has had a similar incident(sounds bad when I actually put it out there, wishing for someone with the problem, meh), will see this and tell you what they did that worked. I haven't had the issue in a smaller tank, but in my ten gallon QT some newbies brought in ich, I used heat and salt, but they were mollies and could handle that...With fish that like salt less I have found heat and a lot of water changes help. Keep in mind, this wont fix quick. It can, but severe cases tend to take a couple weeks. 

There is a med called Sentry AQ Mardel...now, I have heard 50/50 things on this, read some good user reviews that said it did the job well, read others that claimed it did zilch. Sometimes it can clear ich up and is visibly GREAT within only 1-2 days, can take longer...good and works well, but for some it didn't work at all, did nothing(this leads me to believe the medicine does not actually work and likely tells you to turn up the heat on the directions which is what often works...^_~). Look into that, see if it's safe for your cory. Worth a shot if it DOES do as it should, right?


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

Copper sulfate pentahydrate; Coppersafe by Mardel. Melafix/Pimafix won't cut it, salt & heat is great for minor cases, sounds like you're well beyond that. Stresscoat is useless for this.

You'll want to use a clean tank with no algae, make sure your hardness is above 50ppm, copper tends to do a number on inverts at times, so you may want to avoid hitting them with it. Large water changes are great, 50%+ keeps the level of free swimming parasites down.

I've used a half dose on cory fry, as well as angel fry without any issue. It's one of the few meds I keep on hand, it doesn't expire & it's part of fishroom management as I see it.


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## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

I used coppersafe to heal a terrible "ich "problem. Took 2 weeks to.see any impeovement and I slowly increased the concentration to about 2.5 times recommendd dose. My case was like yours. I caught it early and dosed right away, but within1 week.the fish was absolutly encrusted with tiny white spots. I dont really think it was ich because it took a long time at high temp to see ANY improvment. The spots were so dense they started growing together into sheets on fins and tail. I kept upping the dose by adding extra coppersafe each day . I was worried but I said hey... nothing to lose because if the coppersafe didn't kill them the disease would. Fish is now clear of disease and doing well. 2 weeks at 2-3 times listed dose.... slowly increase the concentration by adding a little more each day. That's what worked for me. But I hesitate to recommend because I've heard bad stuff about copper, but you know, rather than just let the fish die, right?


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## jimscott (Jan 24, 2014)

The idea behind heat for ich is to speed up the life cycle of the parasite. It also speeds up the metabolism of the fish. Formaldehyde (Formalin) and Furazone Green are 2 meds that are used together to combat parasites and bacterial infections.


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## Nanners (Mar 22, 2014)

Sylverclaws said:


> The best medicine is clean water. Clean water means little to no chance of getting bacterial or fungal infections but it's not zero. Your fish seem tough since they've survived this long, provided some extra help I hope they'll all be ok. Clean out some water daily to remove dead or extra ich(in a five gallon I'd normally say 5-10%, but since you have a likely stressed cory and three guppies in there instead of just one fish), I'd say to do maybe a 15-20%, more if you feel comfortable with it or if someone more experienced with it says you should. That with heat, lessen any extra bioload and filth that may be in there.


Ok, so substantial water changes it is, going to get to that right away. And thank you Sylverclaws for the help and kind words, I was freaking out pretty badly last night and it really helped. If you come up with anything else that could help, I would love to hear it because you are so knowledgable.

Ill keep the thread updated if something happens.


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

Formagreen is another option, it does depend somewhat on what is available to you. Plain water changes, heat & salt is not going to cut it with a bad case. 

If you want totally non-medication you need two bare tanks, a heater for each, and an air supply or some other form of surface motion to each. You're switching fish to a new clean tank daily, while the unused tank is cleaned & allowed to dry. The idea behind this is as the parasites drop off they have no chance to mature & continue affecting the fish. This usually takes 4-6 transfers, and is often used with medication sensitive fish, or folks who have tanks but no meds available.


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## Nanners (Mar 22, 2014)

Wouldent this stress the fish out a LOT though?


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

jimscott said:


> The idea behind heat for ich is to speed up the life cycle of the parasite.



That is correct - the heat speeds up the life cycle, but it ALSO breaks the life cycle.




There have been a lot of cases lately of "ich" that may not be ich. In addition to the threads I've seen here on the forum, Agent13s new Angelicus loaches in quarantine have "it". Neither one of us have seen anything like it before. She has started an experimental treatment on them today - we shall see what happens.

I'll see if I can post pics


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

It looks like ich, only it's bigger and it is not responding at all to heat. Too, ich is uniform in size and shape and these spots vary.

It's hard to really show with my camera phone. I'll see if I can dig up one of the threads which illustrate it more clearly.

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/showpost.php?p=4120401


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## Nanners (Mar 22, 2014)

jaysee said:


> View attachment 322098
> 
> 
> View attachment 322106
> ...


That looks kind of similar, but since its on guppies its a little smaller in diameter. What is she trying?

Also, do you think the two tank transfer is going to stress them too much, or just stick to heat/salt?


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

She's using some reptile meds.

There was another fish in the tank that was unaffected. She just moved it to another quarantine tank after spending a fair amount of time with the loaches. We shall see what happens.

I would separate them from the other fish if possible, even if it means a little more short term stress. The tank will be cycled I assume so the stress should be minimal.


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## Nanners (Mar 22, 2014)

All the fish have it, so no use separating them.
Reptile meds? Thats interesting, do you have a link to her post, or is it the one you provided above.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

She hasn't posted. It's an antibacterial/anti protozoan med administered by food.


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

Nanners said:


> Wouldent this stress the fish out a LOT though?


Anything you do, meds, tank transfer, water changes, even eating creates stress, especially with a sick fish. You have to decide which is more stressful; the procedure to attempt a cure or the disease itself? 



jaysee said:


> That is correct - the heat speeds up the life cycle, but it ALSO breaks the life cycle.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Heat can break the life cycle, I've seen 86F for 10 days, I've also seen people reporting more resistant strains still active at 92F. Quinine sulfate is used for resistant strains, this is after the more common methods & medications haven't shown results.


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## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

i had this mystery disease in one of my tanks. starts like ich, but doesnt respond well to ich treatments, then quickly covers the fish in bright white spots that grow together to form patches. i tried heat but that only accelerated the progression. Iinterestingly, a week before i had a real case of ich that responded well to heat treatment.

the disease seemed to encrust first around the edges of the scales, and around the eyes, and on fins. the fish never lost appetite or had any symptoms that are normally associated with severe ich infestation. Fish was rubbing against rocks, but did not had labored breathing or lethargy. it would be awesome if we could figure this thing out because ive never seen or heard of anything like this in over 30 years of fishkeeping, and photos online and reference materials did not help. 

i cured my fish with high doses of coppersafe administered over the course of 2-3 weeks, but also killed my plants. it did not, however, affect my cycle.
I wish you all good luck and im definitely following this thread to see if any of you excellent people can shed some light on this mystery disease


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## Nanners (Mar 22, 2014)

So, the salt killed some new plants I had in the tank, took them out after a second water change of ~25% in two days (both in the hopes to reduce NH3 and the damn ich). The fish still look pretty bad, itching more, but maybe they are trying to get the ich off? or Im just being hopeful. Temp is still at 88F, not adding anymore salt to keep my last plant alive, and less stress on my cory, lets hope for the best!


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## jimscott (Jan 24, 2014)

One of the main issues with meds or approaches is that it is generally a gamble that the fish is going to be stronger than the parasite or the infection we're trying to deal with. Another is that we're guessing, albeit educated guessing. We don't always know for sure what parasite or what strain of whatever is attacking our fish.


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## Nanners (Mar 22, 2014)

Well, as of this morning, the disease claimed my favorite of the guppies, this parasite is going down :evil:

RIP Ragnar the Guppy


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

The reptile meds are working well here. Temp has been lowered to normal.


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## Nanners (Mar 22, 2014)

jaysee said:


> The reptile meds are working well here. Temp has been lowered to normal.


What exactly is she using? And how good are the results?


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

We saw slight improvement by the end of the first day of treatment. Day 2 is clear improvement. I'll let you know when I get back with the dog.


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## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

Yes, the meds by food are working. I dont suggest it to anyone as I dont know anyone else who has done it and I imagine overdose would be very easy. I put ~ .03-.05cc of a fenbendazole & metronidazole in with blood worms and let it sit in it and soak about an hr or so then target fed. It managed to be both ingested and topically applied. 2 doses 24hrs apart and I'll observe for the next 5-7 days and redose if needed. All seems good at this moment.


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## Captain Jim Dandy (Oct 30, 2011)

Fifty percent fenben and fifty percent metro, Agent13?:|


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## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

Yes.. The dosage is exactly 50/50


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## Nanners (Mar 22, 2014)

Update:
Started using API super ich attack, half dose because of the cory catfish. 
In addition to the loss of my guppy Ragnar (dont laugh, its a majestic name), I have also lost another, Grover. This ich is merciless.

Will update if I see any improvements in the next few days.


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## Sylverclaws (Jul 16, 2012)

I had a case of ich come in on my new neon tetras. Didn't have a QT open and shoulda moved my gourami out, but I didn't so my gourami got it. >< 

Anyways, when I noticed that I did a clean and just used the heat method as was recommended to me here and at a few other places and popped it to 89 degrees, which is ridiculous turned it into almost bath water. lol I did 40% changes daily to get out any dead or free-floating ich. Did nothing but make it worse for several days and didn't seem to want clearing up, it just mauled the fish it wasn't previously even on. Only three of my eight neons survived that. So I went to get some meds I hoped would be safe with crayfish...ended up not trusting it fully and moved the crayfish out anyways. Meds are called Sentry Mardel Parashield, used them with three tablespoons of salt in my twenty gallon. o-o I hate using new meds, never know what they'll do. Heat will in fact speed up their life cycle and work...to make them breed and grow faster, as well as die faster, but it wont kill them fast enough without a med to kill them with in there and doesn't seem to stop them from breeding. 

So, first day of meds didn't seem to do much, second day they looked a little better but still itchy and bothered, and by day three were down to tolerable nasties. I like it, it seems to somewhat guard them from the nasties while they die off. That or it was pointless and the heat is finally starting to work the way I was told it would...more than a week later.

I suggest finding yourself a good med, keep up with the heat too, and do some good water changes daily to remove the dead or dying, or unsuspecting ich. Go do reviews on the meds you're looking into and get info from people who have actually used the stuff with guppies, see how it goes.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Yes, heat DOES kill the parasites fast enough all on its own, without the use of salt or meds to "help". The elevated temperature breaks the life cycle, preventing them from breeding. It is VERY well documented by the many, many successful treatments. It's a shame that it didn't work out for you, for whatever reason it didn't. But to say that your experience is representative of the whole would not be accurate at all.


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## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

With all due respect, sylver ... The heat method is absolutely an effective method ... With the exception of this extreme ich that I believe is compounded with another new protozoan parasite we are discussing on this thread.

I was so stupid as to take a piece of wood from the QT tank before the ich part was really obvious .. Put it in my 75. 3 Bala sharks got ich but didn't get this other thing. They responded very quickly to heating to 88-89f . Last night they looked nearly ich free. NOTHING BUT HEAT. All I've ever done was heat and heat alone and ONLY time it failed was with the angelicus that are on the experimental method - treating something I believe is ich + a mystery parasite . 


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Loaches are now spot free, so that would indicate that this mystery disease is a protozoan pararisite.


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## Sylverclaws (Jul 16, 2012)

Oh I didn't mean to sound confrontational about it! =( Sorry. I also know it is effective, but it also makes risk if this is a strain that isn't broken by it, or at least not broken by it quick enough. It was just so frustrating! Lost my sweet babies when I turned up the heat. >< Many of them anyways, the rest seem to be ich free now.
I understand this users issue with it not going away. x.x I hate it when things decide to be difficult when your little buddies are ailing. I ended up resorting to salt in a tank I did not want salt in since I had not used it in there for several months because I don't know how to tell if any is left. The tanks ok for that...well, I didn't want to spread the ich for one, and the other is I have fish in those already being QT'd that don't have ich. lol


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## Nanners (Mar 22, 2014)

Update:
Well within the day I lost all 3 guppies, 1 before dosing, 2 after. 2 of them were very badly infected with ich so it was almost expected, but the last had maybe one spot on him. Im not sure why he died, other than from the super ich cure, but if that were the case, my cory would be dead too because they are more sensitive to the medication. I dont know if I should continue the treatment because all that is in the tank is a cory and a snail, and the cory has no ich on it.
I dont know, someone tell me what to do :\


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

A massive water change of 80-90% will remove most Of the salt in a tank. What's left will be minimal and will slowly be reduced further with normal water changes.



Nanners said:


> Update:
> Well within the day I lost all 3 guppies, 1 before dosing, 2 after. 2 of them were very badly infected with ich so it was almost expected, but the last had maybe one spot on him. Im not sure why he died, other than from the super ich cure, but if that were the case, my cory would be dead too because they are more sensitive to the medication. I dont know if I should continue the treatment because all that is in the tank is a cory and a snail, and the cory has no ich on it.
> I dont know, someone tell me what to do :\


While that is generally true, about the corys being more sensitive, that assumes that both fish are in good health to begin with. A cory in otherwise good health will be less "sensitive" than a guppy that has internal failures going on, you know?

there's no right way to go from here. You can continue the treatment or you can abandon it and observe. You definitely don't have normal ich, if it's even all ich to begin with. Agents pleco that was in the same tank as the loaches is now in a quarantine tank, untreated. The fish has not shown spots and is under observation.


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## Nanners (Mar 22, 2014)

Yeah, I guess I didnt think about their original conditions, the cory has had no ich the entire time, just mainly stressed from the salt and water changes. The other guppy had some ich spots, so I guess he was just weaker that the cory, poor guy. 
Im thinking I might abandon and observe, with large water changes daily and keep the heat up, Im so sad that I lost all my little babies on 1 day.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Something else - medicating with elevated heat is a big mistake in my opinion. I know people do it without problems, but that most certainly could have contributed to the fishs deaths. The heat is stressful, salt is stressful, being infected with parasites is stressful, and meds are stressful. I don't like to combine treatments because I think combining stressors like that can prove to be too much for some fish to handle. Could be what had happened here.


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## Nanners (Mar 22, 2014)

Yeah I was thinking that too. But the temperature they are kept at is the temperature they are always kept at, so I dont think that was a stresser but I was planning on lowering the temp today, but i dont really have the need to now. And the salt was basically gone I think with 3+ over 50% water changes. But what happened happened and I hope people with this same strain have better luck than I did.


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Nan. . . I don't have anything to add to this thread apart from what's been said already, but wanted to say that I'm_ so_ sorry for your losses, and terribly sad that you've had to go through this. *hugs*


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## Nanners (Mar 22, 2014)

Thank you very much chesh *hugs back*


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## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

i think its clear that "ich" that doesnt respond to heat or normal doses of ich medicine is not ich. Maybe ich compounded by another disease like jaysee said. It doesnt take more than 2-3 days of treatment to see noticable improvment with ich...i've treated it many times and the fish start to clear immediately every time. This is somthing else NOT ICH. i dont know what it is and havent been able to research anything that seems to apply. Im guessing dinoflagellates . Early stages of dinoflagellate infection often look like ich, but then the spots usualy grow into patches or plaques. Velvet is a dinoflagellate disease, i dont think that this is velvet, but another mystery dino. The lifecycle of dinoflagellates is longer than ich, heat treatments are not effective against dinoflagellates, and treatment with copper was effective for me. The combination of those three clues leads me to believe that this is a dinoflagellate infection.


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## Nanners (Mar 22, 2014)

Interesting, I havent herd of that disease before, but im also new to this haha. 

Also, I know when reading threads its frustrating to try and imagine what someone is describing, so I will add some pictures of the 2 guppies that had it. Maybe that will help with diagnosis in the future for someone, or clear up that it was just a mean ich problem.


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## Nanners (Mar 22, 2014)

The blue one if Grover, the red Ragnar. 
It is easier to see the ich, or whatever, on grovers gills and tail and well entire body.
On Ragnar you can see it on his gills and a little on the back side of his body. 
There were both taken about 2 days before they died, and they were covered even more after these pictures.


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## Sylverclaws (Jul 16, 2012)

That reminds me of the guppies I had a while back who came in with a mix of ich and velvet. I could be mistaken, but it looks like you have Velvet going on in there. Often it presents itself as a rusty color, but sometimes it's just a nasty white film over the body, sometimes causing nasty damage to the scales to make them look...flaky.

Like I said, I could be wrong, but look into it.


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## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

Where did you get the fish? What your fish have looks a lot like what my fish had but much more severe for you. So sad to see fish die. I researched velet online to see if my fish had it and photos and description did not quite match . Velvet is a dinoflagellate disease, but there are many... species of dinflagellates that are grouped together as " velvet". I think we have an uncommon species so its harder to diagnose. Started treating as ich but then no improvement. Looks like unusual form of velvet.


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## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

Whatever this is it's protozoan .. Those pics seem like what my new angelicus would have been had I let it advance more . For this "super ich" I'd stand by any true anti protozoan meds. I RARELY resort to medications but this thing apparently calls for it.


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## Nanners (Mar 22, 2014)

Sylverclaws said:


> That reminds me of the guppies I had a while back who came in with a mix of ich and velvet.


Ive looked at pictures of velvet, but I think the pictures are a little blurry that I took, it wasn't in sheets per say, just dense globs in spots. 



> Where did you get the fish? What your fish have looks a lot like what my fish had but much more severe for you. So sad to see fish die. I researched velet online to see if my fish had it and photos and description did not quite match . Velvet is a dinoflagellate disease, but there are many... species of dinflagellates that are grouped together as " velvet". I think we have an uncommon species so its harder to diagnose. Started treating as ich but then no improvement. Looks like unusual form of velvet.


I got my fish at my local Petsmart because there are no other freshwater stores for miles. And thats interesting. But isn't the 'best' way to cure velvet to keep water conditions prime? I could be mistaken for another disease, but I thought that was for velvet.



> Whatever this is its protozoan … Those pics seem like what my new angelicus would have been had I let it advance more . For this "super ich" I'd stand by any true anti protozoan meds. I RARELY resort to medications but this thing apparently calls for it


I agree, its obvious that the typical treatments don't work, but it seems that by the time you find out that it's not regular ich, its too late to get the medication for what it actually is. 

Im wondering how common this new protozoan is and where it is coming from, Agent13 where did you buy your angelicus from? And how long before the spots developed?

Another thing I curious about is why 2 of my guppies got it so bad, but my cory and the lat guppy seemed to have regular ich, with in a week of hear/salt, the few spots on those two fell off and since the last guppy died i cant say for sure, but the spots have made no reappearance on the catfish. Anyways, we need some fish expert to come in and diagnose this so everyone can be sure haha.


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## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

I bought from blue grass aquatics. I've bought a lot from there with no problems before . 
They were here for a few days maybe before showing signs . Looked like regular ich at first. Interestingly ... Like an idiot I decided to move a piece of driftwood either right before it maybe right after the first spots into another tank of mine . The loaches weren't responding to heat after 4 days and then a couple spots were on my balas in the tank I moved the wood to. I started heat on them and it was effective in the balas . The loaches in QT were getting worse not better though. I think it's something that comes along after ich has weakened the fish. Perhaps a close relative of the typical ich .. Idk


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

Agent13 said:


> Yes, the meds by food are working. I dont suggest it to anyone as I dont know anyone else who has done it and I imagine overdose would be very easy. I put ~ .03-.05cc of a fenbendazole & metronidazole in with blood worms and let it sit in it and soak about an hr or so then target fed. It managed to be both ingested and topically applied. 2 doses 24hrs apart and I'll observe for the next 5-7 days and redose if needed. All seems good at this moment.


These are generally used for for internal protizoans/parasites, though metro does have some antibiotic properties. These are commonly used during a worming procedure with wild caught fish, or as a maintenance procedure in large fishrooms, especially where discus are concerned. This is not to say that they won't work on the external manifestation of a parasite issue, I've been following this to see the effectiveness of this treatment. Both medications are difficult to overdose with, so I wouldn't be too concerned about that.


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## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

Yes, they are meds I keep on hand for parasitic issues for my reptiles. I have a serious dr kit type box of supplies in my reptile supply closet haha. 
I too wondered if it could be effective on an external parasite . However the way I administered it they not only ate it ... They got coated a bit each feeding in the meds. (I'll add, after the first dose... They weren't too keen of the blood worms anymore lol) . They are still in QT and are 100% better. The meds did work.. By the time I resorted to the med I had decided either this med would work or they would die.. They were really looking very bad . 
Are you sure it's hard to overdose, Tolak ? It's administered by weight very specifically for reptiles and can harm them if too high a dose for too small a weight . 


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

Metro is one of the few meds I keep on hand, good for slow to eat angels. I eyeball sprinkling it on frozen, never had an OD issue. Most places advise 20mg/gallon in the water, I bring it up to 40-50mg/gallon with no problem. Fenbendazole is a related med, I'll drag out some books later, need to make a fish run to the north side in a few. If I start looking at medication books I'll loose track of time in a big way!


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