# Pleco loosing colour??



## SophieThomas

Does anyone know what the source of all the discolouration on his side could be? It is spreading and now covers both sides from his head down through his tail. He has no red veining anywhere but has spikes/upturned scales in a line down his side. I have added aquarium salt to his tank as per the suggestion of another member and am waiting on his response to this. Has anyone encountered this before? His behaviour is fine; active, eating, and generally quite happy. His 20G tank is cycling and the stats are .25ppm of ammonia, 0.00 nitrite, 0.00 nitrate and the pleco is alone in the tank. The discolouration is quite a but lighter than the picture shows.


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## mollies

Stop the salt. Do a 30 percent water change now if you could. The amonia is what is causeing it. He is getting stressed out. What size of a tank do you have?


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## mollies

My comon pleco dose that when the lights first come on. Or when the waters are at risk. Or spooked. Why are you treating with salt?


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## Byron

Agree with mollies. Do not put salt in freshwater aquaria with sensitive fish (most acidic water fish are sensitive to salt, livebearers are basically not). There was a thread a couple weeks back about a pleco whose scales were literally burned off from salt. Do a major partial water change to lessen the salt, every day is fine.

There are plants in this tank, so I wouldn't expect ammonia. Do you have ammonia in your tap water? If you haven't tested it, test it straight out of the tap (no water conditioner). That may be the source.

Byron.


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## SophieThomas

I am treating with freshwater aquarium salt as it would be the least invasive treatment for any bacterial infection that could be starting. I added 1 dose as per the usual amount for the tank size (20G). I have been doing daily 10% water changes to ensure the ammonia levels are low due to my tap water containing chloromines. The plants are new and he is the only fish in the tank. The cloudiness is due to what I think is an algal bloom. I will be taking the tank water in to school to do some more accurate testing on the water. I purchased the pleco several weeks ago and his only real changes have been to the store and from the store to his tank. The line down his side is perfectly uniform which is why it seems strange. It nearly looks like it is supposed to be there but it only appeared the other day.


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## Byron

SophieThomas said:


> I am treating with freshwater aquarium salt as it would be the least invasive treatment for any bacterial infection that could be starting. I added 1 dose as per the usual amount for the tank size (20G). I have been doing daily 10% water changes to ensure the ammonia levels are low due to my tap water containing chloromines. The plants are new and he is the only fish in the tank. The cloudiness is due to what I think is an algal bloom. I will be taking the tank water in to school to do some more accurate testing on the water. I purchased the pleco several weeks ago and his only real changes have been to the store and from the store to his tank. The line down his side is perfectly uniform which is why it seems strange. It nearly looks like it is supposed to be there but it only appeared the other day.


In my view the salt is doing more harm than any good it might do. Salt should never be used with such fish. Your tap water should be no worse than mine, and I have never had ammonia in the tap water. There is high chlorine and possibly chloramines (not sure, never checked with the water board) but a good water conditioner will handle that anyway.

Byron.


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## mollies

Agree with byron. Now with that said your Tank is new! Corect me if im wrong. But your pleco looks to be a comon pleco. Which will get way to big for your tank. If its not disregard this......... Salt will burn The fish worse then ammonia. I just read a post let me find it. But it burnd the scales right off the fish. which in turn killd the fish...... Were not trying to be rude. Were just trying to prevent you from hurting your littl friend.


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## SophieThomas

When I tested my tap water it tested at .25ppm for ammonia as does my pleco's tank. I know Abbotsford and Aldergrove have independent water systems as we use well water. My pleco is not a common pleco although I bought him under the impression that he was. He is a Gold Spot Pleco but will still get quite large which is why I am working on a much larger SA biotope for him 

I would love to see some pictures if they are available of the pleco that was losing his scales. My pleco doesn't look like he is losing scales but rather developing very small spikes in a perfect line down his side. Perhaps that is what upturned scales looks like?? I've never seen it before....


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## Byron

SophieThomas said:


> When I tested my tap water it tested at .25ppm for ammonia as does my pleco's tank. I know Abbotsford and Aldergrove have independent water systems as we use well water. My pleco is not a common pleco although I bought him under the impression that he was. He is a Gold Spot Pleco but will still get quite large which is why I am working on a much larger SA biotope for him
> 
> I would love to see some pictures if they are available of the pleco that was losing his scales. My pleco doesn't look like he is losing scales but rather developing very small spikes in a perfect line down his side. Perhaps that is what upturned scales looks like?? I've never seen it before....


Here's the earlier thread, there are photos but they are not too clear. http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...ntis-eruptus-flaky-peeling-cloudy-skin-30326/

If the ammonia is in the tap water (and I understand what you're saying there, thanks) you need to address it with Prime or similar wc that detoxifies ammonia. Daily pwc won't help in this case because the ammonia keeps coming in the water.

B.


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## SophieThomas

I noticed that a few threads back I said I suspected the cloudiness was an algal bloom, I meant to write bacterial bloom, sorry if that confused anything.

It really sounds like the discolouration is due to either heightened ammonia levels or the jostling from tank to tank. Just to be clear on the progression of the discolouration, it did not get rapidly worse after the salt but progressed at the pace it was before. The salt was suggested to be added once and then wait a week so no more salt will be going into the tank. 

That thread mentions some behavioural changes along with "flaking" and "ich" like spotting. My pleco has none of those things and I haven't been able to locate any online information about plecos losing their colour. He is behaving as happy and active as he always was and the discolouration is exactly that, his sides are turning grey. Oh, and I'm not sure if this helps but he is about 3.75inches in a 20G tank. That should be fine for now, eh? Byron, you mention plecos being extra sensitive as acidic water fish often are, is .25ppm high enough to cause that kind of reaction?


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## mollies

Yes any amount of ammonia is. Your pleco is doning its normal behavior. which it will turn colors when stressed.


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## Byron

SophieThomas said:


> I noticed that a few threads back I said I suspected the cloudiness was an algal bloom, I meant to write bacterial bloom, sorry if that confused anything.
> 
> It really sounds like the discolouration is due to either heightened ammonia levels or the jostling from tank to tank. Just to be clear on the progression of the discolouration, it did not get rapidly worse after the salt but progressed at the pace it was before. The salt was suggested to be added once and then wait a week so no more salt will be going into the tank.
> 
> That thread mentions some behavioural changes along with "flaking" and "ich" like spotting. My pleco has none of those things and I haven't been able to locate any online information about plecos losing their colour. He is behaving as happy and active as he always was and the discolouration is exactly that, his sides are turning grey. Oh, and I'm not sure if this helps but he is about 3.75inches in a 20G tank. That should be fine for now, eh? Byron, you mention plecos being extra sensitive as acidic water fish often are, is .25ppm high enough to cause that kind of reaction?


Mollies has subsequently responded on the ammonia, and I agree fully. But just to clear up, my sensitive comment was aimed at the salt. 

I know there are two schools of thought on the use of salt in the freshwater aquarium, and clearly I am in the group that says never. Only exception is as a necessary treatment, but then not when something less stressful will work as well or better. And assuming we are talking sensitive fish. All South American fish that occur naturally in very soft acidic water are very sensitive to any chemical, medication, calcium (hard water), or salt. SE Asian fish from similar water are the same. There is scientific evidence of the possible detrimental effects of salt. I do not see any reason to subject such fish to those effects when it is not necessary, in the hope that nothing will happen. 

In the article from Practical Fishkeeping that I believe I linked to previously there was back and forth discussion on the effects, but one clear summary position from all the biologists and experienced aquarists: never use salt in a freshwater tank as a general "tonic" or without reason as treatment. And I have read similar articles in TFH. This to me is comparable to keeping rift lake cichlids that "prefer" a hard basic (alkaline) water (pH of 8-9 in Lake Tanganyika for example) in an aquarium with a pH of 6.4 and soft water. I know aquarists who do this. I would not, as the fish are not programmed to cope with such drastic changes, and I do not consider that good aquarium practice. Neither do I consider using salt in FW tanks good practice.

Byron.


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## SophieThomas

I did perform a water change after it was suggested that the salt could cause more harm than good as certainly nothing had changed over the following days. I went over the whole tank yesterday trying to come with something that could be doing it and noticed that the temperature reading was quite a bit higher than the heater itself said (81C) I lowered it to 78C which is what I keep my 29G at. After I did a water small water change (about 10%). His behaviour is still normal and here is a picture of his side today...










The grey is now only a saddle mark on his back and doesn't extend onto his head or tail.


Although I understand what you are saying about the salt, I'm not sure it is what made the discolouration worse (and it didn't cause it as it wasn't in the tank before). It did progress as it had been and did not get worse at a quicker pace. I did however perform the water change, lower the temp slightly, and I am keeping a close eye on the ammonia. He is certainly improving. It is a little strange just how fast he is changing though...


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## Byron

It is not just the issue of whether or not this problem was directly caused by salt. The point I was making was that salt is going to stress this fish. If something else is the cause of the problem, the fish then has to cope not only with that cause but also the salt. In other words, using salt regularly will exacerbate other problems which on their own might be overcome by the fish itself. 

Stress weakens a fish's immune system. And I believe salt adds stress; and while I cannot prove this as a scientific fact, there is evidence that it does in certain situations. And no one can prove that it does not, in the literature I have so far read. And when the use of any product or practice is one that may carry risks of this degree, it is something that I believe should be avoided unless the situation unequivocally requires it. For example, we know that any and all chemicals and medications will stress corydoras and characins; so we avoid using chemicals and medications except when the failure to use one of them would likely be worse in the long-term, such as curing a disease that otherwise might take the fish's life. In the absence of any such issue, doing something that is likely to cause stress is not recommended.


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## SophieThomas

Byron said:


> It is not just the issue of whether or not this problem was directly caused by salt. The point I was making was that salt is going to stress this fish. If something else is the cause of the problem, the fish then has to cope not only with that cause but also the salt. In other words, using salt regularly will exacerbate other problems which on their own might be overcome by the fish itself.
> 
> Stress weakens a fish's immune system. And I believe salt adds stress; and while I cannot prove this as a scientific fact, there is evidence that it does in certain situations. And no one can prove that it does not, in the literature I have so far read. And when the use of any product or practice is one that may carry risks of this degree, it is something that I believe should be avoided unless the situation unequivocally requires it. For example, we know that any and all chemicals and medications will stress corydoras and characins; so we avoid using chemicals and medications except when the failure to use one of them would likely be worse in the long-term, such as curing a disease that otherwise might take the fish's life. In the absence of any such issue, doing something that is likely to cause stress is not recommended.


Oh, no no no, I am certainly not disagreeing with you and I understand why you press the issue. You have definitely communicated sound reason and I certainly have not made it habit to put salt in my tanks. My prime concern is making my pleco better and I am willing to change or develop new opinions in order to make him so. I am very happy that his colour have been returning at such a rapid rate. What I would like to still figure out is what caused it to begin with.

*So far we have discussed salt, ammonia, and I am questioning temperature.* 

Obviously me being new to the hobby it is more difficult for me to pinpoint what is bad based on experience so I rely rather heavily on what I have read. This unfortunately can lead to some pretty poor decisions and I image some nasty results with some people. I have been lucky so far with no fish death and only a mopy looking pleco.

I would love to continue discussing the possibilities of what may have caused it to begin with.


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## mollies

OK Stress thats it. What the stress was caused by we dont know. Lets start here> You said you stoped useing salt? Thats good. Now is your ammonia gone? And what is his diet? And if you were to go turn the lights on right now I bet he would lose some color, then get it back shortly after. They are fish by night.


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## Byron

I second mollies. On the temp, Planet Catfish lists 71-84 as the range for the common pleco, although obviously it is better to avoid the extremes. But that wouldn't see to be the problem here.

B.


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## SophieThomas

I have stopped using salt (only happened once!!! I promise!!!!), ammonia is still at .25ppm, and temp is at about 78C.

He hasn't been moved for weeks now and the ammonia have not changed from .25 since I got him.


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## Byron

SophieThomas said:


> I have stopped using salt (only happened once!!! I promise!!!!), ammonia is still at .25ppm, and temp is at about 78C.
> 
> He hasn't been moved for weeks now and the ammonia have not changed from .25 since I got him.


We;ve previously determined the ammonia is in your tap water, and using a good conditioner like Prime (or one of the similar) will detoxify ammonia to ammonium at partial water changes. I belive that is it.

B.


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## SophieThomas

Byron said:


> We;ve previously determined the ammonia is in your tap water, and using a good conditioner like Prime (or one of the similar) will detoxify ammonia to ammonium at partial water changes. I belive that is it.
> 
> B.


 
I started using Prime for both of the tanks about two or so weeks ago under your suggestion then. I realize I haven't responded to your comments on it here:-?

When using Prime could I still get a false ammonia reading? 

Oh, and Mollies, I bugged the poor guy a bit and flicked on his light to see if his colour changes and it does do a bit of a swell and then immediately goes back to how it was before


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## Byron

SophieThomas said:


> I started using Prime for both of the tanks about two or so weeks ago under your suggestion then. I realize I haven't responded to your comments on it here:-?
> 
> When using Prime could I still get a false ammonia reading?
> 
> Oh, and Mollies, I bugged the poor guy a bit and flicked on his light to see if his colour changes and it does do a bit of a swell and then immediately goes back to how it was before


Prime and similar conditioners detoxify ammonia by changing it to ammonium which is basically harmless to fish. Test kits read ammonia and ammonium as ammonia, so the water test will show .25 of ammonia but it will actually be ammonium which is harmless. Plants will grab the ammonium fairly quick, if they are plentiful. While you will see the .25 after the pwc, a couple days later I would expect not. As long as you're using a ammonia detoxifying water conditioner, you're fine. And this will not be the cause of the problem with the pleco, if it is a problem; I don't know this species well enough to go beyond the obvious stress agents that we've already covered.

B.


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## stephanieleah

Weird, I almost posted a similar thread today. My pleco has had two or three cases of what looks like dry skin, sort of flaky but it doesn't look like ich. Then it goes away in a short amount of time (hour or two). Today I noticed a little red spot on the tip of her fin (not where the flaky stuff was) and I thought maybe she's just swimming through her tight little hiding places and bumping herself about and getting skin issues as a result. I don't want to underestimate what it could be but it's so inconsistent that I don't want to over-worry it. I'm surprised to hear people comment that a pleco could react to .25ppm of ammonia...I better watch my levels.

I hope your pleco is okay!


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## SophieThomas

stephanieleah said:


> Weird, I almost posted a similar thread today. My pleco has had two or three cases of what looks like dry skin, sort of flaky but it doesn't look like ich. Then it goes away in a short amount of time (hour or two). Today I noticed a little red spot on the tip of her fin (not where the flaky stuff was) and I thought maybe she's just swimming through her tight little hiding places and bumping herself about and getting skin issues as a result. I don't want to underestimate what it could be but it's so inconsistent that I don't want to over-worry it. I'm surprised to hear people comment that a pleco could react to .25ppm of ammonia...I better watch my levels.
> 
> I hope your pleco is okay!


I was also surprised to hear that plecos can react to that level of ammonia considering I have read that 1.00ppm< is considered to be toxic. Obviously this varies dramatically from fish to fish. I hope you figure out what is wrong with your pleco! 

Byron, thank you for confirming that for me. I have known that specific information about Prime but I have heard very contradicting opinions on whether products like that should be used so the reading of ammonia, although expected, still leads me to worry a little. My pleco has stayed completely fine since my last posting and even the weird spikes down his side are nearly gone. I will be adding more plants to both tanks tomorrow.


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