# Do fish feel pain?



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

This is a topic that comes up regularly so I though it would be good to have a thread in the advanced section about it. Too, since I don't start many threads this makes it a quick and easy reference for me. A win win 


There are a number of pieces found online, written by various people, and it's makes a good magazine article.

But, here is a published 34 page research paper, including the 5 full pages of references. The author conducted the largest study done on fish neurology.

"The Neurobehavioral Nature of Fishes and the Question of Awareness and Pain"

http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/pubs/Fishwelfare/Rose.pdf

It's quite a read, but this is the advanced section, afterall


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Didn't read the paper, don't have time right now, so apologies if I don't address something. 

I've seen conflicting information regarding fish and pain and I don't really have a set stance on the issue, but there's not a doubt in my mind that they can be uncomfortable, suffering, etc. Whether or not they can feel "human-like" pain we really won't know. 

I do think, however, that having to justify any action with "fish don't feel pain" means that the action should _probably_ be reconsidered- I've seen it used as a justification for controversial practices such as fin cutting, and simply justify something to yourself does not make an action humane.


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## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

I read most of it.. didn't have time to read all yet. They area more instinct based creature so it's understandable the feeling of pain per se isn't needed to get an appropriate reaction to protect themselves. 

However what I find interesting is the discussion of fear. Where fish don't actually learn or experience fear. I think perhaps this is a grey scale depending on fish..and humans as well. I don't fear much..maybe scarily so. I'm not motivated to do things out of fear. Even if I'm choosing to do something to protect my kids or myself.. fear is often not involved. So in reading this study...does that make me a cichlid? :lol:.. sounds like it from their explanation. haha


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## pop (Aug 29, 2012)

At the local watering hole for tropical fish keepers ……. 


Pop; ya I read the whole thing I had to take my shoes off just to wade through it. I need one of those higher-order shovels to clear out my mind.

Dutchie: Ole Rosey (James D Rose) sure convinced me that fish do not feel the same pain that I feel sometimes. I am glad about that but I am not so sure about the way consciousness is broken down into primitive (primary) consciousness and higher-order consciousness. 

Pop: that consciousness / awareness thing is very persuasive it took me awhile to figure out that primitive consciousness refers to actions associated with the brain stem and other subcortical structures and nociceptive stimulation is the activity that occurs in the brain stem and associated structures.

Dutchie: so what is consciousness it has to be more than just some vague process that happens in the brain.

Philbert: Some folks would think that consciousness’ is a sense of self-awareness though Ole Rosey says to add language, and include pain and fear. 

Pop: that’s one of the concepts that got me language if language is necessary part of consciousness.

Philbert: and pain only exists in a state of consciousness then human infants do not feel pains because the neural structures needed to support consciousness are not yet created through the processes of living. 

Pop: tell that story to a parent with a six month old that is crying and needs a little TLC to make the hurt go away. Though I must say I believe that pain must be experienced just like fear for it to exist in the self-awareness of an individual.

Philbert: since you think that pain must be experienced then what is pain? Would you agree that pain is an unpleasant experience that occurs from intra action with the environment that can be manifested in different forms as a result from injury, disease and emotional problems?

Pop: I guess that emotional disorder represents pain as suffering or distress. There’s one more form of pain and that is pain of annoyance, a nuisance.

Philbert: That about sums up what pain is for me. How dose Ole Rosey relate pain?

Pop: He says that “pain is both an emotional as well as a sensory experience …. Nociception is not pain unless neural activity associated with it reaches the level of consciousness”
So this means that a noxious stimulus will excite nociceptive sensory receptors and nociceptive pathways within the spinal cord into the brain stem and if this activity is passed to the neocortex (higher order consciousness) then pain exist, If this activity remains in the brain stem and associated structures (primary consciousness) no pain exist.

Dutchie: I t’s an odd way to consider pain when thinking of pain across species not to mention the possibility of pain being manifested differently according to the history of critter’s evolution 
Ole Rosey understanding of pain is the notion that all vertebrates are connected through evolution in terms of function and structure that focuses on the operation of the spinal nerves and the corresponding lower levels of neural processing that generate primary consciousness.

Philbert: Ole Rosey was uptown using opiates to demonstrate how fish and humans have this corresponding likeness in response to noxious stimulation suggesting that both fish and humans have the same evolutionary experience up to the point of fish separating from the evolutionary movement of vertebrates towards primates and higher-order consciousness.

Dutchie: Call me anthropomorphic faced with all of this empirical data that fish do not possess the necessary self-awareness for pain or fear to exist I still feel empathy for my water critters. When my fish shows signs of distress and unhappiness I respond in a manner to ease their pain, even though Ole Rosey says that what I am seeing is only nociceptive induced behavior I think PAIN.


A word about using facts, first get your facts straight and then distort them as you please.


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