# Is this a good deal for a Saltwater tank?



## AndyGB4 (Dec 17, 2012)

Hey everyone, this is my first post on TropicalFishKeeping!

So first off, I'd like to say that I have only 2 years of experience, running a 32g freshwater tank, and all is well. I really want to get into saltwater tanks, so I've been doing tons of research on the subject for over a week now. 

To give you all an idea of what I'm looking for, I would like to have a FOWLR tank, and because of the space of the room I would like it to be in, it can only be maximum 40-45" wide.

Ok, so here's the deal I wanted to ask you guys about!
For about 550$ it would include all this:

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Aquarium: 40 gallon tank, 30" x 12.5" x 23"
It comes with a nice wooden base.

Sump: 20 gallon tank, 
with all the pipes necessary to connect to display tank.

Lights: 30" 4x 24 Watt T5HO 50/50 Current Usa
with 2x timers, and 2x moonlight LEDs

Skimmer: Tunze Nano DOC 9002

Pump: Eheim Compact+ 2000 (like new)

Heater: ViaAqua 300w in Titanium (like new)

Other: He said he'd also throw in a vacuum, thermometer, and other little things.
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What do you guys think of this deal? I know it's easier to get a bigger tank, but considering the space limitation I have, this seems like a good option. And there seems to be a lot of really expensive items in there. So I come to some experienced reefers like you to let me know if I'm right in thinking this is a pretty nice deal!

Thanks in advance everyone!


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## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Looks good to me.


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## AndyGB4 (Dec 17, 2012)

Thanks Reefing for the quick reply,

Also, If i decided later on to convert to a Reef tank, will this be possible with the equipment mentioned above? Just an idea, but definitely not a must. 

Would love to get some more opinions on the deal listed above though, so I can feel more sure about it.


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## aussieJJDude (Jun 9, 2012)

I think all the equipment would support a reef, but you may need to get a few more gadgets.
Good deal


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## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Yes, what you have listed will support a Reef tank. What would you like to know that would comfort you about the tank?
Tank new= $135
Stand new= $180
Tunze Nano DOC 9002 new= $130
4 lamp T-5 HO Unit new= $200
There ya go, and thats not all your gear.


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## AndyGB4 (Dec 17, 2012)

Well I guess I wanted to feel more sure about if its really a good deal, and seeing that list of average prices u wrote, it reassures me. I tried looking up some price online earlier but the prices fluctuate quite a bit from site to site, so it helps so much that someone with as much experience as you can give me some numbers! 

I'm going to go visit the man to see it in person sometime this week. 
Hopefully all goes well, this would be a great step in the right direction.

Thank you for all the help, I'm sure I'll have a ton of more questions! haha


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## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)




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## AndyGB4 (Dec 17, 2012)

So unfortunately, many people are interested in this deal, hopefully I can visit him on Thursday and it's not sold until then!

Also, what else would I need to buy? 
I'm thinking:

- Substrate (does it have to be live sand?)
- Dry Rock
- Live Rock (I thought mixing the rocks would come out cheaper, and the live rock will spread to the dry rock, right? will it also spread to the sand? and what's a good ratio between the rocks?)
- Salt mix
- And I guess that RO/DI water too
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AndyGB4 (Dec 17, 2012)

Oh and I forgot that I probably need Powerheads too, right?
how many should I get for a tank of that size?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSully (Nov 22, 2012)

General rule of thumb is 10-20 times your volume of water for tunrover. You'd preobably be looking at 2 powerheads. PLacement will be key.


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## AndyGB4 (Dec 17, 2012)

So since it's a 40 + 20, I'd be looking at something between 600 and 1200 times?
(i assume I have to take into account the sump as well when calculating this, right?)

And for Substrate and Rocks, what do you guys suggest, in terms of what & how much of it should be live?


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## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

I could answer now, but its a pain in the butt to try and type out all the answers yiur looking for from a phone. Ill put together a comprehensive answer for you in a bit. Basically 10x yiur water volume for a Fish Only tank, and +20x your tank volume for a Reef tank. 2 powerheads, on opposite sides of the tank blowing at each other will create somewhat of a random current.


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## AndyGB4 (Dec 17, 2012)

Thanks Reefing!

Well, seeing as I will only be (potentially) buying my tank on Thursday, there's really no rush for that list, take all the time you need, I know you're pretty busy! 

Anyways, I'm going to pass by my LFS tomorrow afternoon, because I haven't quite decided what I want to do with my 32g freshwater tank. I've become so attached to some of those little guys, so I'd hate to sell everything! I'm thinking of maybe getting a smaller tank, and keeping some of them around, but at the same time, I'm still planning where to put my Saltwater tank. Ah, so many options! I'm torn lol. hmmm...


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## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Oh, I meant time frame of getting home. =)
Here is the list I give all the new Saltaholics

#1-Dry Rock, there are a few hitchhikers on Live Rock that people want to stay away from, so they opt for using Dry Rock, or Dead Rock. Macro Rock is a good place to start looking for that. Either way you go you will need a minimum of 1lb per gallon.

#2-Replacement filter media like filter floss and activated carbon (if you get a filter) Which is really not necessary.

#3-Multiple Power heads (2 or 3) 10x your water volume for just a Fish Only With Live Rock, and at least 20x your water volume for a Reef Tank. So lets say your going reef, and you have a 100g tank, you would need flow in that tank at minimum of 2000gph, or 2 1000gph power heads.

#4-Protein Skimmer, rated at 2 times your water volume. Unless your tank is under 30g, in which case you can do 10% water changes a week to rid the system of detrius. But, you'll have to watch the water parameters close, if things go haywire, you'll have to do more water changes.

#5-Saltwater Test Kits. Reef Test Kit. Test for Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrates, PH, Phosphates, Calcium, ALK and Magnesium.

#6-Saltwater fish food. Mysis Shrimp, Squid, Cyclopease, Algae Sheets, Romaine . Flake food is not really a good food to feed your marine fish.

#7-Aquarium vacuum. This one is iffy. Most don't use one, if you have enough flow in the tank you won’t need one

#8-Rubber kitchen gloves

#9-Fish net

#10-Two, clean, never used before, 5-gallon buckets

#11-Aquarium thermometer, digital being the best.

#12-Brush with plastic bristles (old tooth brush) - needed for cleaning the live rock if you don't get Fully Cured Live Rock.

#13-Power Strip, possibly GFCI outlets by the tank.

#14-Optional but definitely recommend getting a Reverse Osmosis or RO/Deionization filter for the make-up water, and a barrel for storing the water.

#15-Possibly a Quarantine Tank for your new fish. They sit in here for a few weeks to kill off parasites and bacteria, to keep it from getting in your main tank

#16-Heater rated for your size tank.

#17-Saltwater Mix. Marine Salt. Instant Ocean is the cheap Salt that beginners and Advanced use alike.

#18-Saltwater Hydrometer or even better a Refractometer, which is more accurate. There is also a Digital Meter that is way advanced if you have the cash.

#19-Aquarium filter (not absolutely necessary if running with adequate amounts of live rock, but nice to have if you need to use a mechanical filter or activated carbon, or GFO and such)

#20-Aquarium substrate such as live sand or crushed coral. Some go bare Bottom, others choose the 2-3" bottom, others, more advanced will try the Deep Sand Bed, which is over 6" deep.

Volusion Demo Store

Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle and Cycling. Methods for Ammonia, Nitrite Removal.

aquarium heater in Aquarium & Fish | eBay

power heads in Pumps | eBay

New 0 10 Salinity Refractometer Salt Water Aquarium | eBay

MarcoRocks Aquarium Products

Bulk Dry Live Rock & Live Sand - Bulk Reef Supply

Live Rock and Live Sand: Live Saltwater Aquarium Rock and Sand

Fish & Aquarium Supplies: Marine Substrates, Sand, Crushed Coral, Live Sand

Aquarium Lighting, Light Information; Reef & Planted, PAR, Watt, Kelvin.

http://live-plants.com/

What Your Coral Needs | Successful Reef Keeping

t-5 lighting in Home & Garden | eBay

cree led aquarium in Lighting | eBay

Aquarium Salt Mix: Salt for Saltwater and Freshwater Fish Aquariums


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## AndyGB4 (Dec 17, 2012)

So I asked the guy how old the tank was and he said about 2-3 years old. Since I don't have much experience in the fish tank business, does that seem ok? I mean my freshwater tank has been running for close to 2 years and the aquarium is still in pretty good shape, so I would assume it's alright.

Plus, he said the Heater was new, and the Pump was new.
And all the pipes for the Sump are all new as well. 

I'm trying to run more numbers on everything included in the deal, and like Reefing mentioned earlier, it seems like it's a nice deal with only a few products already hitting over 600$. 

I think I really want this one because of the Sump and all the pipes are already set up, because I feel like I'd have no idea how to do any of that if I did it on my own.

Anyways, getting pretty excited to get started, but I'm also a bit scared because it's a big investment! But I see this as being something I'd like to keep (and upgrade!) for the rest of my life, so I think I'm going to take the plunge!

I've been doing tons of reading, but If you guys had to explain the general routine of keeping a saltwater tank maintained in a quick list, what would that list look like (after the initial cycling and all)? Just so i can be sure of what I'm getting into. You can also compare it to a freshwater tank of about the same size, since that's what I currently have.

I'm scared but excited at the same time lol!


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## AndyGB4 (Dec 17, 2012)

Also, here's some pictures of what the tank in question looks like:

















Judging from what you see in the pictures, can you experienced reefers tell me what kind of an overflow it has? I know you can't see much in the pictures, but maybe you guys see something you recognize that a newbie like me would definitely not know. 

Also, the Sump doesn't seem to have any chambers or anything, am I right? I'll only get to see the tank in person on Thursday though, so until then, all I have is this pictures to speculate lol. Thanks guys!


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## AndyGB4 (Dec 17, 2012)

Oh one last thing before i finally go to bed!!

This is what he wrote about all the plumbing and stuff, what do you guys make of it?
Because honestly, I don't know anything about pipes and stuff:

Overflow JBJ ($ 15 value)
Bulkhead 3/4 "($ 15 value)
Butterfly valve ($ 10 value)
Check valve ($ 10 value)
Return nozzle U ($ 15 value)
Piping and accessories ($ 50 value)

2:00 AM here in Montreal, gotta go to work tomorrow morning! MUST SLEEP NOW!


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## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Looks like 3/4" line for overflow. But you will detremine what that flow will be by what return pump you put on there.
Sump with no chambes is not an issue, mine doesn't have any, I'd rather have more room for Macro Algae to grow. The chambers keeps the water level constant in one of the chambers for reactors and skimmers.


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## AndyGB4 (Dec 17, 2012)

Ok so I confirmed with the seller than the sump is in fact empty. 

The return pump is the pump that will shoot the water back up to the Display Tank? if so, my pump would be the Eheim Compact+ 2000. I still have to learn how all the pipes and stuff work I guess. 

If I do buy this tank, do u guys think it will be easy to load in my SUV? like because of all the plumbing and stuff, is it still easy to separate? (like Display tank, the stand, the sump, the pipes, etc)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

If he's got Unions on all the PVC like he should, all you have to do is unscrew them, pretty easy job. If he's not done that, you'll have to take the plumbing out as one piece.
Its pretty easy to run, and put back together, especially with the tank being drilled.


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## AndyGB4 (Dec 17, 2012)

Ok thanks Reefing Madness. that's good to hear. 

going to my LFS on my lunch break, gonna get an idea of some prices, and I may even buy a new (smaller) freshwater tank set-up to downsize my 32g FW tank. I'd like to use the FW tanks space to put my new SW tank, and I don't really have room for a 32g and a 40g. well see what I find!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AndyGB4 (Dec 17, 2012)

Ok so I just got back from my LFS, I found some aragonite sand, prices ranged from 40$ - 50$ for about 40-50lbs. The smaller grain sand was least expensive. What are the advantages/disadvantages to having large/small grains of sand?

Also, I found a hydrometer and all the marine test kits. so I'm glad to see my small LFS is getting more and more saltwater products (they only started getting into it recently)

And I also found a 10 gallon tank (for my QT) at 20$. but it doesn't come with anything, not even a lid. is it important to have a lid for a quarantine tank? anyways, I don't think I'll have to worry about that yet, much bigger things to take care of first!

So I didn't buy anything, because I will wait to see if I purchase the tank tomorrow, and obviously to see exactly what comes with it. Can't wait!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Smaller grains won't trap debre in it, thus keep the nutrient build low and your Nitratess better in line. I'm not a fan of Hydrometers, they are a bit inconsistant. There is no need for lid on any tank, unless you are going to keep fish that are prone to jumping.


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## AndyGB4 (Dec 17, 2012)

ok nice, so I'll probably go for that small grain sand I saw. and from what I read, a refractometer is more precise, correct? I didn't get a chance to look closely at all the products because I had to hurry back to work, but I'm sure they have a refractometer, if not, I can get one online easily. 

I wish we were tomorrow already so I can get the ball rolling and know exactly what I need!!

I noticed Instant Ocean salt mix was on special, but I didn't see the actual product, so ill have to go back and check that out.

For my QT, all I need is a HOB filter, a heater and maybe something a fish can hide in. is that pretty much it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## codydemmel4 (Dec 18, 2012)

Im with andy, for a QT do you need to make sure the levels are salt are good in that too im guessing? How do you do that? And what else do you need in a QT because I have a 10 gallon tank just sitting around with a filter that is for a 20 gallon tank but I dont know what else I have to do to make sure this is a good QT for salt water fish.


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## AndyGB4 (Dec 17, 2012)

Well all I can add on that subject is I'm guessing you start by filling it with water from your real aquarium, so that way it doesn't have to cycle or anything. 

But you're better off waiting until Reefing gives his opinion on the subject. I don't have any experience in this lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

AndyGB4 said:


> Well all I can add on that subject is I'm guessing you start by filling it with water from your real aquarium, so that way it doesn't have to cycle or anything.
> 
> But you're better off waiting until Reefing gives his opinion on the subject. I don't have any experience in this lol.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You can start your QT this way, providing your DT is cycled, but I'd have that filter cycling on the DT also, as water does not carry with it alot of the bacteria needed to keep the tank from going mini cycle. As you stated above also, you right on the mark. QT does not have to be pretty. some large pieces of PVC for the lil guys to hide in to feel safe is all you need, and your HOB filter. Don't even need a light. You do want your SG and Temp to be close to your DT though, unless your treatment is Hyposalinity, then you would gradually raise your SG back to your DT SG over a weeks time frame.
Refractometer is much better than a Hydrometer. Much more accurate.


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## AndyGB4 (Dec 17, 2012)

Awesome, thanks! Tomorrow is the day that I *may* (read most likely will!) buy that deal. I really hope this guy took care of his equipment and it's not all yucky and broken down.. 

I think once I purchase the deal, I'll close this thread and start a Diary thread, because or else the name of this thread will be misleading, since it wont have anything to do with the deal anymore.

Just wanted to say thanks again for all the help!


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## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)




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## AndyGB4 (Dec 17, 2012)

So now that I'm so close to buying the tank, I have to start thinking about what else I need.

I don't think the deal comes with Powerheads, so are there any powerheads you recommend? My tank is 40 gallons (+20g sump), so if I read correctly I'd need minimum 600gph? (since it will start off as a FOWLR).


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## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

No, you don't use your Sump volume as calculated DT volume. So for a 40g FOWLR you would only need 400gph, or 2 powerheads. 
I like Hydor, Hydor knock offs and MaxJet Circulation powerheads.
Hydor Koralia Nano (Mini) Pump/Powerhead 240gph
Aquarium Systems Pump/Powerhead
Hydor Koralia Nano 240 Power Head | eBay
Aqueon » Circulation Pumps | Products


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## AndyGB4 (Dec 17, 2012)

Ah, ok! thanks!


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## AndyGB4 (Dec 17, 2012)

Hey Reefing, do you have a picture of your sump? so I get an idea of what mine will/might look like since we both don't have any chambers?

Also, I know it's preference, but in your opinion, is it better to help cycle with a bit of live sand or a bit of live rock? lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

You should have your whole tank set up during a cycle. The Rock and Sand is where the bacteria will colonize, and thus keep you from needing a Filter. These items are key to the success of your tank. They should be in before the water goes in.


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## AndyGB4 (Dec 17, 2012)

oh sorry I didn't word that right, I'm obviously going to put in all my rocks and sand when I cycle, but I was wondering if I should get any live rock or live sand (besides the dry rock and sand) to quicken the cycle a little bit, and if so which is better in your opinion?

and thanks for the pics! and is the white grid to stop the algae from going up into the DT?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Yes, the egg crate is to keep the alage from going into the DT. If you are going to mix dry rock with Live Rock, its not going to help or hinder the cycle at all, same with the sand. Only way you will avoid a cycle is to use all live rock and live sand. If this changes your mind, thn I'd recommed just staying with just Dry Rock. The Live Rock can carry some nasty stuff with it that some people have trouble getting rid of.


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## AndyGB4 (Dec 17, 2012)

Hmm. ok so I'll have to think about that then. I liked the fact that live rock makes ur tank look more ocean like, but is it worth the risk of some of the bad stuff that may come with it? I'll take a few days to think about it since I'll be going to a much bigger LFS Saturday morning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AndyGB4 (Dec 17, 2012)

If I would go with only Dry rock, the rock will eventually be populated with bacteria, but will it look any different? or will it always just look like play dead rock?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

If it were me I'd go with Macro Rocks in my Display. It will look very good once its established. It will team with beneficial bacteria, no worries there.
If your LFS has Base Rock, go with that. Up to you of course, some have very good luck with Live Rock, some have very poor luck with it. Ill get you a recent Thread on here by Hugedomel he I battling Bryopsis. Very bad thing to fight.


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## AndyGB4 (Dec 17, 2012)

yeah I've been following that thread! kinda scared me a bit. gonna have to do a lot more research between now and Saturday to finally decide if I'll put in some live rock or not. 

By the way, I purchased the deal on page 1! he even through in a powerhead, the Koralia 1, I think it's called. so that's cool too  and with the head he wanted it all for 565$, I got it for 520$.

now that I made the deal is it better if I close this thread and start a news one that will be about my adventure with this tank? that way the title won't be misleading anymore? because as it's my first SW I'll have a million questions lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Sure, you can start a new Thread.
Heres the link on Macro Rocks
MarcoRocks Aquarium Products


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## AndyGB4 (Dec 17, 2012)

Thanks for the link, found a great combo of 40lbs Largo rocks, and 40lbs Bahama Aragonite sand for 107$ with shipping, buying 50lbs alone on that site costed the same price, so that seems like a crazy good deal! Its perfect for my 40gallon tank


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## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Right on.


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## AndyGB4 (Dec 17, 2012)

How long does marcoRocks take for shipping? where are they located? in Florida I think? I'm up in Montreal, so I guess that'll take a little while, plus it's the holidays, so I'm sure it'll take a couple days. I think I'll buy the deal. and since it's all dry rock I guess it doesn't matter much if it gets stalled in transportation, there's nothing living on it so it should be fine
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AndyGB4 (Dec 17, 2012)

So apparently they dont ship to Canada  back to the drawing board... Not sure if its because of a specific product (i had the 40lb/40lb combo + the emarco-400), but I contacted them and well see what happens, because in the contact us they say it ships to Canada, well see what they say!

I need to be patient anyway, no need to rush, since this whole project will take lots of patience


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## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Bulk Dry Live Rock & Live Sand - Bulk Reef Supply


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