# Need help choosing substrate



## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

As the title says, I need help choosing a substrate. The reason I just didn't go off someone else's post is because I have specific factors that need to be considered because of my water and the fish I will be getting. I would really apreciate the names of good brands along with your posts to help me find them better to research. If you don't know a brand, could yall at leat spell out what yall are talking about instead of using shorthand? I might not know what it means :-/

The Facts
1. pH is 6.2 from tap and 6.8 after 48 hours of sitting.
2. Water is very soft
3. 20 gallon long that will be filled 1 inch deep, so quality over quanity since I wont need an obscene amount.
4. Silica free (with my low pH, I experenced a terrible brown algae/diatome breakout that covered my tank. The problem was confined to the one with pool filter sand and did not improve over 6 months until I removed it. Believe me, I tried everything else first)
5. Good for Betas and Kuhli Loaches (preferably fine smooth gravel or sand that wont compact or ruin my filter). I also might get afew Otos later on, but if it works for Kuhlis, it should work for Otos too.
6. My plants will be stem and floating. With no root feeders, enriched substrate isn't really necessary. Plant wise, at most it will be something for the plants to hold onto.
7. Appearance is irrelivant. Function over looks. I only want the substrate that is best for my fish and plants
8. Avaliable in the US


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

There is no such thing as silica free sand. Sand IS silica. 

Look at caribsea supernaturals sunset gold.


Sent from Petguide.com App


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

Well, sand is silica. It's just what it is and there is no way of avoiding that. Even gravel will have it (sand is just pulverized rocks).

However, it is 'crystalline silica' and is stable, which means it will not react with water. You can read about it in the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet), section X.

http://www.quikrete.com/PDFs/MSDS-B4-Playsand.pdf

The water you describe is similar to my own, and others here on the forums. My tanks pH is ~6.4 in all 4 of my tanks.

Perhaps there is something wrong with the sand you purchased, but I can say that myself and many others here (with soft, acidic water too) have not had this issue with sand. All new tanks generally experience a dolomite outbreak, but it goes away on its own over time (if not eaten by some fish).

For gravels you will probably not find anything in pet stores, your only hope there will be a local store. Commercial substrates are either silica sand or gravel. The alternatives are usually for marine tanks and/or african lake cichlids and are calcareous, which means they dissolve in water and add mineral hardness (GH & KH). You don't want that, this is stuff like crushed coral, dolomite, and aragonite.

For your filter, are you using a HOB? If so, any sand is a concern if it is 'disturbed' so don't run the filter when you first set up. The issue is the impeller is located on the bottom of the HOB, so when the sand settles in the HOB reservoir, it can get caught in there. With canister filters this is less of an issue, because the impeller is located at the top and thus doesn't have to worry about settling sand. A sponge filter however may serve you better on a 20 gallon tank. Less current, equal functionality, never have to replace a cartridge.

You are correct that your substrate choice will have no affect on your plants.

You say you don't care about appearance, just functionality with the fish. Well, appearance actually DOES affect the fish. You want to avoid anything bright (like white) and what I'll call clown puke (hot pink, blue, neon green, etc etc). Just get something natural (tan/dark brown) or get black. It is better for the fish and will make them feel less stressed.

Okay, so if you want something specific I will say just head to Petco and buy their store brand black sand. Information is scarce on it, but I believe it is either all plastic, or regular sand that's epoxy coated (just like fish store gravels are epoxy coated). An alternative is to go to a landscape supply company and see what they have for gravels, you may be lucky and they'll have some fine gravels you can use. Third, go online like to aquariumplants.com and buy their gravel. It's expensive though, especially with shipping.

I personally use the Quickrete Playsand from Home Depot/Lowe's, but you've expressed you don't want to use that.


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

The silica based sand I used was Sea Gule pfs. Like I said, the situation didn't exist until I added it and got no better until I removed it, so it had to be the sand. And I was told about some silica free substrate via PetSmart Corporate Hotline, so I assumed that all substrates were not silica as I was told by them that they do have silica free (see where I'm going with this?).

I don't have a Petco anywhere close. We have to go to either PetSmart, a small lfs, or maybe one of those hardware stores or something.

What I meant by not caring about what it looks like, I meant to say that I don't care if it looks like poop with corn on top as long as it works. And I know about avoiding white an florecent colors, but thank you for adding it to your post as I'm sure there will be someone who comes across this thred that might not have. 

I've heard of a lot of people suggesting that particular playsand, but after the disasterous results I had with my pool filter sand (which was also recomended to me on here), I'm a little gun shy about using non-aquarium sands. Plus all the hours of rinsing would be tough on me considering I only have full use of my right side. The degree of use I have on my left varies from day to day.

Oh! And I honestly have no clue what HOB means. I have the walmart brand one and a Tetra whisper 10-30i. And even still, I could catch a 20 gallon kit on sale for cheeper than just the tank and hood, so I'm clueless atm. I'm hoping that I find a setup that includes a stand too.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Bluewind said:


> The silica based sand I used was Sea Gule pfs. Like I said, the situation didn't exist until I added it and got no better until I removed it, so it had to be the sand. And I was told about some silica free substrate via PetSmart Corporate Hotline, so I assumed that all substrates were not silica as I was told by them that they do have silica free (see where I'm going with this?).


Yes, I understand how confusing it is. But the fact remains that "silica free" sand is still made of silica. Silica IS sand, and sand IS silica. It's not an additive or anything - it's the chemical composition.

Here's a place that advertises SILICA FREE SAND! Silica Free Sand, Non Silica Sand, Healthy Sand, Safe Sand

Just what you are looking for, right? Wrong.

From their Q&A 

*2. Is your silica-free sand really silica-free?
*All sand has some type of silica in it -- by nature, silica is part of the physical composition of grains of sand. So, speaking technically, there's no such thing as sand that does not have silica in it. 


Now, you can go with aragonite, which is a calcium based sand, but it is not inert.


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

Why do they call it silica free if it isn't silica free!?! Thank God they don't make the peanut alergy labels 

No. It has to be innert. God I didn't realize this was gonna be so hard! 

Also, when I say soft, I mean very very soft. Our well is filtered with sand which is an amazing natural filter. If I remember right, I think our hardness was maybe like 20ppm from the tap?


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## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

I'd reccomend 'Estes ultra reef sand". Its inert, epoxy coated, and about $1 a pound. Its probably available in different brand names, since its pretty much identical to a construction material called 'colorquartz' and 'spectraquartz', and smooth enough for bottom dwellers.

Might still want a minimum of two inches so the stem plants will be held down.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

I won't belabour the points about silica and sand but you will need more than 1" to hold stems decently.

There are so many people using various types of sand (me too) without the issue that you had that I'd be surprised if were actually the sand... but I'm not asking you to justify or discuss it further as you obviously spent 6 months trying to fix the trouble.

Jeff.


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

I'm surprised you had a problem with pool filter sand as I'm using it and it's great...I'll confess that it took a fair amount of rinsing, but it has a grain size large enough to stay put. That's important because many of the very fine sands can be trouble.

I like sand over gravel because no matter what you do, uneaten food and waste gets down into gravel and requires routine gravel siphoning to prevent a nitrate factory. With sand, it just sits on top where it's more easily removed.

Edit: In the above I meant sand instead of gravel, NOT sand (over) on top of gravel.


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

Personally I have my Kuhli Loaches on 'Flourite Black Sand' which is an enriched sand substrate. It is more on the expensive side ($20 for a 15lb bag), and honestly although I love it and adore it, it is _very_ fine and takes several months and a canister filter to get it to settle and not cloud the water column at the slightest touch. 


For an inert black sand, I know a user here who keeps Kuhli Loaches on Tahitian Moon Sand, which is completely inert. (I know it says 'Reef and Marine' but it's totally inert and fine for FW)

'Carib Sea' is probably the most popular brand of 'aquarium' sand, here's a link to some. I'm pretty sure I bought mine from Petsmart. I'd go with the smaller grain sized ones, such as Sunset Gold. Instant Aquarium

You can also look at buying sand online - If you buy through Drs. Fosters and Smith (and I think Petsmart/Petco) online, any order over $49 is shipped free. 
And through Amazon anything over $25 is generally shipped free, too. 

Good luck! You'll have to post pics when you decide what you want! 

EDIT: I also have a low ph, and have had luck with 'Quikcrete Playsand' (although I have _not_ had loaches on it, yet, but I truly think it would be fine, it's a very soft sand), but I only bought it because it was cheap. I'm not a huge fan of how it looks (I don't really like light colored sand), but I have it in my Quarantine tank so if I have to heavily medicate the tank/one of the fish brings in a nasty, I can just toss the sand instead of worrying (but then again I'm paranoid sometimes). Sorry for the ramble!


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

I haven't used Tahitian Moon Sand, but I have seen other reports from users who say it is quite sharp and as such would not be good for loaches which have no scales and like to burrow.


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

Thank you all for the information. Especially you Jent. It will make choosing a sand at PetSmart much easier. You too Red. From both my threads. I'll look up the one you sugested too and call the lfs to see if they keep it.

Yes, it had to be a sand problem. I have 2 tanks: a 10 gal and a 2 gal. They originally had gravel and had no problems. Before I restocked my 2 after upgrading Gus, I changed my 10 to sand and added better lights. That's when the brown algae started. I then stocked my 2 and used some of the let over pfs as substrate. I got brown algae in it too. I though I had cross contaminated the tanks. I started to try to get rid of it. I tried agressive cleaning, more light, less light, more fert, less fert, no fert, more plants, large pwcs, and everything else you could imagine. He light and fert made a slight difference, but not much. The, I decided to take the sand out of my 2 one day and replace it with gravel because it was harder to clean in the tiny tank. It wasn't long after that that the brown algae slowed way down. Both tanks get water from the same mixed bucket every pwc. Same. light schedule. Same everything! And yet I couldn't catch a break with the big tank until I changed the substrate. So is any other explanation even possible?


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

Geomancer said:


> I haven't used Tahitian Moon Sand, but I have seen other reports from users who say it is quite sharp and as such would not be good for loaches which have no scales and like to burrow.


I've seen the same, but Chesherca keeps both Kuhli and Dwarf Kuhli (I can't remember the scientific names :-?) on Tahitian and all of her loaches are healthy and active. I asked her like 5 billion questions about it when I was considering buying it, haha 

Oddly enough, my loaches have never tried to burrow in the sand, but they would burrow in gravel. Then again now they have an entire leaf littered tank to play hide and seek in :roll:


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

I have kept Corys with the TMS without any problems.

Loaches really only burrow when they feel threatened. However, they do like to hide under things, so soft is still important.


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

Good to know. 

Since I'm getting all this good advice anyway, could you guys recomend the best numers for my tank? One person said to have 6 female Bettas, 8 Kuhli, and 6 Otos, but do I have to have so many loaches? I would rather have more Bettas. Could you guys give me a number that would work the best?


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

I did a search OL for Quickrete and foundsome disturbing stuff. Apperantly, it contains trace amounts of asbestos and the dust from it is a know carcinogen! Some states require a warning label on the bag stating that it should not be inhaled and can cause cancer. YIKES! I think I will go with another option O_O


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

Bluewind said:


> I did a search OL for Quickrete and foundsome disturbing stuff. Apperantly, it contains trace amounts of asbestos and the dust from it is a know carcinogen! Some states require a warning label on the bag stating that it should not be inhaled and can cause cancer. YIKES! I think I will go with another option O_O


That's the general sand product warning. I called them a while back and had them send me the prcess that the premium playsand goes through. The carcinogenic issue is with the silica dust which is only an issue with dry sand. They sell a silica free version (maybe not quickrete) that has most of this dust removed for use in playboxes that are in more arid regions. The silica, being inert, can build up in the lungs causing similar issues as asbestos does. Children playing in dusty sand are at risk, hence the warning.

For the record, any sand product will have the very same issues, don't inhale the dust. Just that aquarium sand is not so prolific that it is a public hazard, that and it is used wet so there is no issue whatsoever. 

There was an incident of hazing in our town many years ago that involved talcum powder. The victim ended up with some serious lung issues from it. Seeing as inhalation of talcum powder is not the intended use and there are no warnings on it, nobody thinks about it. Any inert dust or powder can have the same ramifications.

Playsand is fine if rinsed wet... it isn't even dry in the bag typically.

Also, asbestos is not a hazard if wet either, they use water methods to remove it from buildings because of that.

Jeff.


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

What about the fish? Would it be a danger to them?


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

No, asbestos is not a carcinogenic due to it's chemical properties, it has to do with the physical interaction with the lungs. Like silica (sand) it is essentially inert but asbestos is worse as it is a fiberous material. If our lungs were full of water, it would not be a problem as it would flush in and out... other than the fact that we would have drowned... that would be a bummer.

It's funny but my brother asked me about asbestos in sand this afternoon after this thread was started... completely unrelated but we had the exact same discussion. Sometimes things that have a very small potential for problem sound worse than they are without all of the information. To be honest, I might react the same way if I didn't know some of what I know. Keep in mind that I am not trying to talk you into sand or anything, just providing some frame of reference.

I just cleaned some quikrete playsand this afternoon to add to the office tank as I didn't add enough for the plants to have a good foothold yesterday. It's darker than the other brand I used in my home tank.

Jeff.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

For the fish mentioned (the loaches particularly) you want soft sand. Which type is up to you, just make sure it is soft (not all sand is) and inert.

After years of using only fine natural gravel, and saying "no" to sand, I now have sand in 6 of 7 tanks. And I use Quikrete Play Sand. You worried about the rinsing; don't. Yes, the water will be cloudy longer, but this is not going to harm the fish, and it will settle. What I do is rinse the sand (not completely by any stretch of the imagination), put it in the tank, arrange the hardscape (wood, rock). Then fill maybe 4-5 inches with water, then drain that out. Then plant, add water carefully (onto a bowl or something to avoid disturbing the sand) and leave it. The natural appearance of play sand cannot be matched. And it is very inexpensive.

Byron.


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

Thanks you guys. I appriciate all the help. I worry so much about doing it all right within budget. I don't wat to cut a corner that ends up killing my fish, killing my plants, or breaking something like my filter. My boyfriend is buying me the 20 gallon as a gift, but I don't want to go near his budget of $250 if I can help it. That's for the aquarium (glass), hood, stand (required), decore (functional stuff like caves), plants, substrate, fish, and other stuff like fish food and plant food. I have a filter and heater that will work. I found the aquarium, hood, and stand for $160, but I haven't run across anything cheeper for that part of it.


1. Plant wise, I'm having trouble narrowing down my list. After going through the plant profiles, I have narrowed it down to the following: in alphabetical order, Amazon Frogbit, Dwarf Sag, Java Fern, Java Moss, Water Sprite, and Water Wisteria. I am hoping for plants that wont be too messy (shedding) and hopefully some that are edible. Floating plants would need to not get sucked up in the filter. All would need to feed from the water column as I will only be dosing with liquid Flourish. Water temp is 79-80 F. Soft water with pH of 6.6-6.8. Please let me know if any of these plants wouldn't suit these conditions.

2. Numberwise, how many of each fish would make a good mix? Keep in mind I want a minimum of 5 female Bettas and 5 Kuhli (what petsmart has labeled Kuhli anyway) Loaches. I would also like to have some Otos unless it is not possible in this size tank with its plants and filter.

3. My tank will be having a pretty good current. Will that cause a problem with the playsand?

I ran across a DIY Cave Grotto Aquarium Brackground that is made out of vinyl guttering, silicone, vinyl lawn edging, rocks (I wouldn't use lava rock as I'm pretty sure that it's not innert, so I would have to find something else cheep. Suggestions?), and hocks or suction cups (to hang it by) that looks amazing (can't post line via Kindle), but I worry about the cost (cheep aqurium silicone suggestions anyone?) and safety of it (is it all inert and aquarium safe?) as well as it's functionality.
4. I mean, would it be good for my aquarium inhabitants (loaches, bettas, and otos) and give them enrichment as well as plenty of hiding places or would it be a glorified 3D background that would take away some of the depth and volume of my tank?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

> 1. Plant wise, I'm having trouble narrowing down my list. After going through the plant profiles, I have narrowed it down to the following: in alphabetical order, Amazon Frogbit, Dwarf Sag, Java Fern, Java Moss, Water Sprite, and Water Wisteria. I am hoping for plants that wont be too messy (shedding) and hopefully some that are edible. Floating plants would need to not get sucked up in the filter. All would need to feed from the water column as I will only be dosing with liquid Flourish. Water temp is 79-80 F. Soft water with pH of 6.6-6.8. Please let me know if any of these plants wouldn't suit these conditions.


As this is only a 20g, I would forget Wisteria. Water Sprite is ideal, as it is floating, providing shade (which the fish mentioned prefer) and dangling roots which Betta love to browse through. Wisteria needs good light, and hidden under WS it likely won't get it. The other plants, Java Fern and Java Moss will thrive under WS. As for Dwarf Sag, I find this a slow plant and I would suggest Chain Sword or pygmy chain sword. I have all of these, in varioous tanks and sometimes together, and the swords are much better under such conditions. I do not use substrate additives with these, only Flourish Comprehensive (and Trace, but this is not necessary).



> 3. My tank will be having a pretty good current. Will that cause a problem with the playsand?


You can baffle the filter presumably, as this is less of an issue for sand as it is for the fish, esp Betta that occur in still water like swamps.



> I ran across a DIY Cave Grotto Aquarium Brackground that is made out of vinyl guttering, silicone, vinyl lawn edging, rocks (I wouldn't use lava rock as I'm pretty sure that it's not innert, so I would have to find something else cheep. Suggestions?), and hocks or suction cups (to hang it by) that looks amazing (can't post line via Kindle), but I worry about the cost (cheep aqurium silicone suggestions anyone?) and safety of it (is it all inert and aquarium safe?) as well as it's functionality.
> 4. I mean, would it be good for my aquarium inhabitants (loaches, bettas, and otos) and give them enrichment as well as plenty of hiding places or would it be a glorified 3D background that would take away some of the depth and volume of my tank?


I've no knowledge of what this might be, so can't say; but if you are looking for inexpensive [even if it only means having more moeny for something else], nothing beats plain black construction paper. A sheet is a couple dollars or less, and I use this on my four smaller tanks. The depth (front to back) is more spacious because you don't see the back, and it certainly sets off the colours of fish and plants. Just a thought.

Byron.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

Bluewind said:


> 1. Plant wise, I'm having trouble narrowing down my list. After going through the plant profiles, I have narrowed it down to the following: in alphabetical order, Amazon Frogbit, Dwarf Sag, Java Fern, Java Moss, Water Sprite, and Water Wisteria. I am hoping for plants that wont be too messy (shedding) and hopefully some that are edible. Floating plants would need to not get sucked up in the filter. All would need to feed from the water column as I will only be dosing with liquid Flourish. Water temp is 79-80 F. Soft water with pH of 6.6-6.8. Please let me know if any of these plants wouldn't suit these conditions.


I did a lot of trial and error, not many errors at least, with plant selection... I tried about 30 varieties and have over 20 work out well. Some failed due to light, some I didn't like so much. Your list is pretty good, I don't know about the dwarf sag and I think wisteria is fairly high light. I like crypts as they are a nice low light plant that is substrate rooted but doesn't seem to need root tabs... slow growing though. I always just look for tanks at the LFS that have some growing in the low light conditions similar to my tank and they have all worked out very well.



Bluewind said:


> 3. My tank will be having a pretty good current. Will that cause a problem with the playsand?


If you are using and HOB, the sand shouldn't be an issue with the current, just turn it off when you disturb the bottom planting and vacuuming. If a canister, don't point the output at the sand. It should be fine.



Bluewind said:


> I ran across a DIY Cave Grotto Aquarium Brackground that is made out of vinyl guttering, silicone, vinyl lawn edging, rocks (I wouldn't use lava rock as I'm pretty sure that it's not innert, so I would have to find something else cheep. Suggestions?), and hocks or suction cups (to hang it by) that looks amazing (can't post line via Kindle), but I worry about the cost (cheep aqurium silicone suggestions anyone?) and safety of it (is it all inert and aquarium safe?) as well as it's functionality.
> 4. I mean, would it be good for my aquarium inhabitants (loaches, bettas, and otos) and give them enrichment as well as plenty of hiding places or would it be a glorified 3D background that would take away some of the depth and volume of my tank?


I pick the latter. A hunk of driftwood placed upright in the corner (don't go with big, aim for flat, it's cheaper and gives more cover with less displacement) gives the corner to hide in, a couple of rocks (pick your own for free) stacked gives you a cave, another flattish driftwood across three rocks gives you two more caves and space behind to hide in. Depending on your fish, you may or may not need a lot of hiding... even the java moss provides some cover once it gets spread out. I hear loaches like leaves on the bottom too. All fairly cheap decor. It would suck if you took up a ton of space with a backdrop only to not have it used anyway. I like stacking rocks even though I only have one of those... I do like the driftwood setups though... shrimp love the knarly driftwood to hide in too... if you end up with shrimps anyway.

Some thoughts anyway.

Jeff.


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

Wow. You two went bove and beyond what I expected. Thank you so much 

I would tell you if I had a baffle or a HOB, but I'm clueless as to what either one is! *blush*

Okay, so no on Whisteria and Sag and look up Swords. I took Crypts off my list because of melt and I tend to move stuff around. If I can't find Water Sprite, what is a good alternitive for my floating plant?

So the cave thing would be a waste of time and money? Good to know. Maybe I'll look into one of those caves you can make from pvc pipe, gravel, and silicone. I will have to look around for some silicone that's cheep and aquarium safe. The river rocks idea sounds like a good idea too and I could use left over silicone from the cave project to glue together the rocks for arches 

So what chain stores carry Estes Reef Sand? Does it go by other names? Is there an equivalant brand I can ask about too?
What about playsand? What chains carry Quirite(sp?) ?

I'm guessing that yall are unable to answer stocking questions for some reason. I will just have to do my best. Maybe 5 loaches, 7 bettas, and 5 Otos? Or 6 Loaches, 7 Betta, and 4 Otos? Or 9 Bettas, 4 Loaches, and 3 Otos? I'm raising the betta myself from fry, so they should make an excelent sorority


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

> I would tell you if I had a baffle or a HOB, but I'm clueless as to what either one is! *blush*


This just refers to some method of reducing the water current from the filter. You might find some threads in the DIY area, but generally you can use sponge or filter foam to make a sort of baffle which the water will still pass through but much slower. I'll leave it for those who have done this to detail.



> Okay, so no on Whisteria and Sag and look up Swords. I took Crypts off my list because of melt and I tend to move stuff around. If I can't find Water Sprite, what is a good alternitive for my floating plant?


If you move plants, forget crypts.:lol: A good floater I like is Brazilian Pennywort. It still has some dangling roots, though no where near the extent of Water Sprite. Dwarf watter lettuce is small, but the regular water lettuce is another, though this latter is better in ponds as it will block a lot of light and gets large.



> What about playsand? What chains carry Quirite(sp?) ?


I buy Quikrete Play Sand at Home Depot. I believe Lowe's also carries it. Just make sure it is *play sand*, not one of their other products like paver sand which is not as good for several reasons.



> I'm guessing that yall are unable to answer stocking questions for some reason. I will just have to do my best. Maybe 5 loaches, 7 bettas, and 5 Otos? Or 6 Loaches, 7 Betta, and 4 Otos? Or 9 Bettas, 4 Loaches, and 3 Otos? I'm raising the betta myself from fry, so they should make an excelent sorority


I will leave the Betta to the Betta experts, as I've no experience so can't say about numbers. But for otos, no less than three, but five would be better. Kuhli loach, again absolute minimum 3, but five is best.

Byron.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

I'd suggest 5 and 5 then top off with bettas as that gives you good numbers of oto's and loaches. Bettas can be pretty much any number.

The playsand can really be any playsand. The quikrete product is finer than I thought it would be, I just put it in the office tank and find it darker and finer than my other sand from Home Hardware. 

For the rocks, I just stuck them... no glue. They don't move on their own and the fish don't push them around. 

Jeff.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

"Best" for kuhli loaches is as many as you can fit. In a 20 long (30 inch tank) I would not keep less than 7. In my experience they do best in larger schools, meaning they are more active.


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

Actually Jeff, numbers in Bettas are very improtant. They can be kept alone. Females in groups must be kept in odd numbers of 5 or more so that they may establish a hyarchy (sp?). Some have had sucess with a group of 3 but more often than not the omega gets picked on far to much by the other 2.

So which one of the Quikrite sands is the best exactly? There's more than one.

Also, could someone plese tell me what Estes Ultra Reef Sand is called on Amazon so I can look it up?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Bluewind said:


> So which one of the Quikrite sands is the best exactly? There's more than one.


I previously said, get the play sand, not one of the others. Quikrete Play Sand.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

I think it is actually called premium playsand. I don't know if there is a "not premium"... Here's a shot of the bag... sorry for the grainy dark pic though.

Jeff.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

Bluewind said:


> Actually Jeff, numbers in Bettas are very improtant. They can be kept alone. Females in groups must be kept in odd numbers of 5 or more so that they may establish a hyarchy (sp?). Some have had sucess with a group of 3 but more often than not the omega gets picked on far to much by the other 2.


Learn something new every day. As much as bettas are one of the most common kept fish there is surprisingly little information available... or at least the signal to noise ratio is very low.

We considered female bettas along the way so I will keep this in mind.

Jeff.


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

Thanks for the pic. It will make it much easier to find. I'll pull it up when I can get to a computer 

Yeah I'm a total Betta adict. I know a boatload about their needs, so odds are I either know it or know where to find out. This is my first sorority but they are lots of fun even though they aren't for beginners.They can actually make pretty good community fish if you do it right. And they come in so many colors and tail types. I love mine. They have so much personality. Both are veiltails.

I'm going to try my hand at some homemade decor. Anyone know the name of some good aqarium safe silicone? I'm trying to decorate my tank as cheep as I can.


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

I just use regular silicone tbh, I don't know the brand. It's just 100% pure silicone with no fungicides or additives. As long as you let it cure for a week or two you're good. I spent quite a bit of time researching it when I was gonna build a paludarium. 

I agree with 'the more the merrier' on loaches and otos. From personal experience loaches are much happier and more likely to be out and about when they have larger numbers.


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

Looks like I have gotten myself into a pickle then. I'll have to figure out how many of each my tank can handle or ditch the otos and just keep betta and kuhli. Tough decision. :-?


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

Well, I had a crazy day. I had to get a 20 tall, couldn't get any of the plants I wanted, and no one carried Quikrite oplaysand or Otos! I bought another brand sold by Home Depo which was a BIG mistake. It has sooo much organic matter in it and even though I used the methods yall talked about, it took me 2 hours to get just a few handfulls worth. So now I have to figure out how to get a hold of some substrate that will work :-/


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