# fish for cycling?



## dorabaker (Jul 3, 2010)

I decided to post another thread because I really can't do much with my aquarium until I have an answer to this...

I'm setting up a 10 gallon aquarium (I have a 5 gallon currently) and Ive planned all the steps out up to the point of introducing the first fish. I need to know what species can withstand cycling.
The tank will be very heavily planted and I'm putting the filter from my current tank into it to help get the cycle established.
The fish I already have, which will be moved to the new tank once it's mature, are an angelfish and a gold gourami. I'm planning on getting some tetras, a pair of rams, a bristlenose catfish, and maybe a red-tailed shark but obviously none of these fish are suitable for cycling. 
two ideas have come to mind but I'm not sure if they'd work:
cycling with water snails (which is how I cycled my current tank)
or golden barbs. I have a golden barb which is currently living in an outdoor pond and on deaths door  hes very sick but previously has always been incredibly hardy, able to withstand almost any conditions. would a shoal of golden barbs, perhaps introduced gradually, be good for cycling a tank?

i really need an answer to this, i can't get on with planning my tank without knowing 
thanks


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

I am new to fish myself but have found all kinds of helpful information here. Sadly, I didn't find this place until after I had been talked into purchasing a few Tiger Barbs for a 60 gallon tank to cycle. Truth be told, I wish I had done a fish less cycle. The daily or every other day water changes to keep the fish healthy gets to be a lot.

My question is this, If you are just switching tanks but keeping the current filter, why don't you just transfer all the already cycled water along with your current fish, decor etc... Into your new tank all at once? That water is cycled, the decor, filter already have the good bacteria so that should be fine, right? 

It seems the fish you intend to add to your tank might be way too much. 10 gallons doesn't give a lot of swimming room. My concern would be the fish might fight due to stress over lack of space but like I said, I am new and just learning myself.


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## dorabaker (Jul 3, 2010)

thanks, I did consider transferring everything at once but I think it may be too stressful for the fish I've already got. also, I'm trying to introduce the new fish in such an order that the more aggressive/ territorial ones are added right at the end. unfortunately my angelfish is one of them and I kind of have to keep him in the current tank until all the more delicate fish have settled in.
I'm hoping it won't take long for the tank to cycle, with the filter from the other tank added, and I'm starting to think I'll transfer the main feature of the tank - a piece of bogwood with a huge java fern growing on it - straight away which should help a bit. I don't own an ammonia/nitrite/nitrate test kit unfortunately. they seem pretty expensive. but there's no way I'll know whats happening with the cycle if I don't have one, right?


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

Again just a thought, rather then getting a whole bunch of fish maybe you could spend the money on the test kit first and save up for fish as you go. What will you be doing for a filter on your old tank with the Angel fish when you put it on your new tank? Maybe it is just me but I think it would be far less stressful to carefully, slowly move them into the new tank with their old stuff, gravel, decor, filter, water then to add them in with new fish etc... It doesn't seem like it would be any worse then a large partial water change. Again, that is if you plan it out and do it carefully.

I am most concerned about the amount of fish you want to add to your 10 gallon. That really seems like a heavy load but hopefully someone with more years experience will weigh in on this one. Some of the fish you mentioned get rather long.


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## dorabaker (Jul 3, 2010)

I know I'm likely to be overstocking my tank which is why I need to narrow down the number of fish a bit, haha. the red-tailed shark is one of my faves but also one of the largest.. :S the catfish is supposed to get quite big too but I've kept them before and they don't seem to grow all that fast. still, you never know. the angelfish is huge but I'm stuck with him 

my filter is homemade and I'm making another one to use in the angelfish's tank while the original one will be in the new tank. I'm also getting another heater. in the end I'll have two heaters and two filters in the larger tank - one filter wouldn't be enough and possibly one heater wouldn't be enough either. I talked about this in another thread and everyone thought the two heater idea sounded good.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

Wait, was I mistaken, did you mean 100 gallon, not 10? I only have 1 heater in my 60 gallon tank and am now wondering if I should have a second heater. It seems to be doing the job and the heater was rated for up to 90 gallon, I believe. 

Do you have plans to get a much larger tank down the road? Not very far down the road as you already have some rather large fish and the others will grow quickly. My tiger barbs have double in size in just 4-5 weeks.


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## PRichs87 (Dec 30, 2009)

None of the fish you said should be kept in a 10 gallon tank except maybe the gourami alone.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Agree. I'm afraid you have too many (or too potentially-large) fish for a 10g let alone adding more. As you are stuck with the angel (reading here and the other similar thread) that fish alone in a 10g is pushing the limit. The fish will not be healthy long-term. Please do not add other fish in with it, it will only become worse. Such fish kept in small tanks often become very aggressive, which stresses out the other fish as well as themselves.

Golden barbs are shoaling fish that must be kept in groups, and a 10g is no where near large enough for any barb. They are active fish that need swimming room, aside form the water quality issues.

Given your circumstances, will the fish store not accept the angel in exchange for maybe supplies or other suitable fish? If you have a reliable store and they know you, they will understand the situation (we all have probably gone through this) and to keep you happy and a regular customer, help out.

Byron.


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## dorabaker (Jul 3, 2010)

I'm not intending to keep golden barbs, just wonderd if they would work for cycling. 
the angelfish has always been a bit agressive, but even in my 5 gallon tank, I haven't had a problem with him for a long time. usually he'll chase new additions away until they know to keep out of his territory - then everythings fine.
I have kept up to 4 fish in a *5 GALLON* tank and never had a problem...I know I must have been overstocking hugely, but I swear they were all very healthy. one day I'd like to have a large tank - maybe 55 gallons - but there's no way I could get one now.


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## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm afraid I agree with what's been said. An angelfish will grow 6-8 inches long and 10 inches tall. A 10g tank is only 12 inches tall, so with a standard inch or two of gravel on the bottom the full grown fish would barely fit in the tank and would certainly not have enough swimming room. The shark will also outgrow a 10g. A single ram might not be a problem, but a pair in a 10g would be problematic, especially with the angelfish present. There are many tetras that would work in a 10g tank, though.


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## dorabaker (Jul 3, 2010)

thanks for the reply, it turns out i have an 15 gallon not a 10 but still to small for the angelfish i guess. i'm stuck with him however.
i've complete;y revised my stocking plan however, i'm going to make it a corydoras species tank


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## dorabaker (Jul 3, 2010)

oops forgot to mention tank is bare bottom...


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

dorabaker said:


> oops forgot to mention tank is bare bottom...


My recommendation is to add a substrate, especially with bottom fish. Small grain smooth gravel will be your best choice under the circumstances. Dark colour or natural, nothing bright or multi-coloured; the fish have to live on it. There are a couple reasons for a substrate.

A host of bacteria live down there, and they are very good. Plants need it for roots, and the fish you are contemplating like plants. The gravel will also keep cleaner than bare bottom unless you are prepared to siphon it off at least once every day. Considering the benefits of a substrate, I would not choose this route.

Corys love sifting through the substrate, it is their prime natural activity. Fish provided what nature intended for them will be happier fish, and that means less stress which means better health.


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## dorabaker (Jul 3, 2010)

i do see your point about the substrate, although i find it much easier to maintain tanks without one. at some stage i would like to maybe put a sand substrate in but not yet...the tank's only just started up. maybe once its matured a bit. sand would be ok wouldn't it? i've always used sandpit sand in the past and washed it very thoroughly. just one question though, how do you siphon a sand substrate without sucking up the sand? gravel is even worse IMO because it can block the siphon tube. even though it does look nice.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

dorabaker said:


> i do see your point about the substrate, although i find it much easier to maintain tanks without one. at some stage i would like to maybe put a sand substrate in but not yet...the tank's only just started up. maybe once its matured a bit. sand would be ok wouldn't it? i've always used sandpit sand in the past and washed it very thoroughly. just one question though, how do you siphon a sand substrate without sucking up the sand? gravel is even worse IMO because it can block the siphon tube. even though it does look nice.


Something is at odds here, let's sort it out.

First, a bare-bottom tank is more difficult to maintain and takes more work to do so. Breeders use it because it is "easy" to maintain near-sterile conditions [some would argue how "good" this actually is, but...we're not considering breeding here], but this is certainly not "natural" for any fish. As I mentioned, there is a host of good bacteria needed in a natural healthy aquarium, and they have to live somewhere and the substrate is one of the best places.

Second, sand is not "easier" to keep clean. It readily compacts, which gravel also does but far less often unless you neglect regular maintenance or something is wrong. Some plants need a deeper substrate, and sand over 1.5 to 2 inches depth is ripe for compaction. You can't siphon it, you have to "stir" it or run a fork/rake through it, etc. Malaysian livebearing snails help as they burrow through the substrate eating minute particles of this and that. Sand is workable and looks fine, but it has its own set of issues.

Gravel also has issues, but they are easier to handle. What sort of siphon did you use that it sucked up the gravel? The best implement is one of those water changers that have a large-diameter tube (about 2 inches across I think) for maybe 8-10 inches, attached to a smaller-diameter tube (about 1/2 to 3/4 inch across) and the wide end is inserted into he gravel to stir it up; the suction is just sufficient to pull up the gravel, which tumbles around and falls back, but the detritus is sucked out. You can get larger versions called "Python" that attach to a faucet like a garden hose; for larger tanks these are essential to avoid hauling buckets and buckets of water.

Byron.


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## dorabaker (Jul 3, 2010)

i just have a piece of plastic tubing about 1 cm in diameter (i think). i know, i'm a terrible fishkeeper :-? i used to have a piece of tubing the same diameter as used for air pumps and that was terrible for gravel - at least the larger one doesn't get blocked.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

dorabaker said:


> i just have a piece of plastic tubing about 1 cm in diameter (i think). i know, i'm a terrible fishkeeper :-? i used to have a piece of tubing the same diameter as used for air pumps and that was terrible for gravel - at least the larger one doesn't get blocked.


 
A terrible fish keeper is someone that is unwilling to learn and practice new ways. That is not you. You are here to learn and that is a far cry better then many people. Hopefully you will take the information you gain here and put it into practice. Gravel is pretty inexpensive. For a tank your size, one large bag should do it. I have found it for as low as $10.00 a bag. The siphon's I have seen around that same price. I think if you just get one or two things at a time, in no time at all, you will have an awesome fish tank and very healthy, happy fish. I think Patience is the key to successful fish keeping. I have been reminded a few times of this myself.


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## dorabaker (Jul 3, 2010)

thankyou inga  the price doesn't sound too bad. i will have to accumulate things slowly though (and that includes fish!)


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

dorabaker said:


> thankyou inga  the price doesn't sound too bad. i will have to accumulate things slowly though (and that includes fish!)


Gravel is least expensive if you can buy it in bulk. Some fish stores carry bulk gravel, usually the "natural" colour sort of buff/brown which is fine, some also have darker gravel (like the one in my 90g flooded Amazon forest tank). You buy these by the pound and they will be half or less the cost of packaged gravel, and just as good if not better. Years ago I had packaged black gravel lose the colour and became blue, very disconcerting. Just make sure you get inert gravel, not calcareous gravel like coral or dolomite or that made for cichlids as these will raise hardness and pH.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

Byron said:


> Gravel is least expensive if you can buy it in bulk. Some fish stores carry bulk gravel, usually the "natural" colour sort of buff/brown which is fine, some also have darker gravel (like the one in my 90g flooded Amazon forest tank). You buy these by the pound and they will be half or less the cost of packaged gravel, and just as good if not better. Years ago I had packaged black gravel lose the colour and became blue, very disconcerting. .


 
Hm, yeah that would bother me quite a bit. God only knows what chemicals your fish had to deal with when the black stuff came off the gravel. I purposely searched out a natural colored gravel. I was going to go with black but I really liked the look of the natural beige.

dorabaker, There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing it one thing at a time. Heck, that is 1/2 the fun. You get to have Christmas more often with new presents. lol First gravel, then a siphon. :-D Just put a couple of dollars away each payday and soon you will have everything you need. Maybe even a larger tank, who knows. Do you ever check craigslist or anything like that? I see tanks on there all the time. I have seen 30 gallon tanks as low as $15.00 with the filter. Keep your eyes peeled you might be able to get a really good deal. Get a larger tank, then you might be able to have some of those other fish you were thinking about. 

My goal is a 150 gallon tank but that is a ways off. I ran out of money with this tank. ha ha


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## dorabaker (Jul 3, 2010)

150 gallons? that would be awesome haha! unfortunately considering my age (i'm...well, young :-?) i won't be able to get a bigger tank for a long time


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