# How accurate is the "vinegar test" really?



## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

How is everyone? Well, I hope!

Do you consider this test accurate? How long must the vinegar be left on the sample? Is it fool proof? Or may there sometimes be false positives?

I'm just wondering how much faith to put in this test. Thank you for your input!


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

Hi, from my understanding this test is accurate for testing rocks to see if they are inert. If they are not the vinegar will react immediatly.


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## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

Thank you, I appreciate your response very much!

I was hoping there was a chance of a false positive with my substrate, silly as that is. I'm just upset because this tank has seemed to go wrong at every turn. I'm sure in hindsight I'll be thankful that I've learned a lot. But its still frustrating right now. =)

Thanks again!


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

What type of substrate do you have in your tank right now?


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## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

I don't have any. Its still leak testing. =)

I had purchased what I thought was the same kind of coarse sand I had read others used (namely Byron, love the look of his)... and didn't think to test it until I had spent 3 hours washing 75 pounds of it. I could have slapped myself! Ha, ha!


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

What type of sand, was it play sand, or some other type? I have not ventured in using sand yet for my tanks, but it may help other members in recommending if this can be used or not depending on the type of sand. Also some people do use certain sands to help raise the ph level in their tanks, such as if doing an African cichlid tank and their ph is below what is needed for the fish.


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## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

Gotcha.
It was made by Quickrete, their "earthessentials" line. It was the "paver base sand" type. I purchased it from Lowe's in the garden section for about $3.50/50# bag. After it was washed well (typical sand/fluorite washing method), it was a nice medium brown with different partical sizes. It totally looked like the type of sand you see on lake or river beaches. It was fantastic, aside from the small part about being terrible for a S.A. tank. But, you're right, African cichlids, livebearers, would love it!

I don't want to settle for tan colored sand (play sand/pool filter sand), and I don't want to shell out the bucks for aquarium sand. But it looks like those are my choices!


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

So you're saying that the sand you describe reacted (fizzed) when you poured on some vinegar? (this would surprise me).


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

Looking for some additional information on this sand looks like it is a polymeric sand. After looking to see what polymeric sand is, I would say that it is not suitable for aquarium use. For doing sand in the aquarium I would suggest using playsand if looking for an inexpensive alternative to buying aquarium sand sold at LFS.


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## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

AbbeysDad, yes it fizzed. I put a bit of store bought gravel in a dish next to it and put vinegar on that, for comparison. The gravel did nothing, the paver sand fizzed. Now keep in mind, the stuff I bought is different than Quickrete or King "play sand" BUT both the Quickrete "earthessentials" paver sand and Quickrete regular paver sand say they can be used as play sand. Obviously, paver sand is not entirely silica. Found out the hard way!

The hunt for CHEAP dark sand (that is also suitable for corydoras) continues!

Hey, it just occurred to me- a cheapER (but not cheap) way might be to cut regular play sand with brown aquarium sand. Has anyone tried this? Does anyone have pictures?


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## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

Wow! I'm shocked and amazed! Get this-

I ended up just going with play sand. I was sick of the battle of trying to find my ideal substrate inexpensively. So after washing 75lbs of regular old tan play sand in 2 hours (including getting it into the tank), filling it halfway (for planting)... in only fifteen minutes the water is almost completely clear! I am *SHOCKED* and *AMAZED*! I don't even have a filter running, nothing. I expected it would need to settle overnight, at the very least. BUT ITS CLEAR!

At last, something pertaining to this cursed tank has finally gone right! I think I'm going jump for joy or do a victory lap or something! :redyay:
Sorry, just had to share my elation!


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

Happy to hear that you found something that worked, and that things are going well. It is always nice when things work out, and one less thing to have to worry about. Planning on changing out my substrate in the next few weeks. Planning on going from gravel to sand.


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## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

Good luck! I hope your experience with sand will be as easy as mine!


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

Buyer beware. After a little research, it's clear that polymeric sand should never be used in an aquarium. It's great for pavers as it uses portland cement or some other chemical BINDER to bind the sand particles together making a stronger bond between pavers, less likely to wash out. Not something you want in your substrate.


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## DKRST (Jan 11, 2011)

Glad the play sand worked out for you. Back to mixing black sand with play sand for a moment.
I have not mixed those two together specifically, but I did mix some solid black sand with some African Cichlid sand (black with occasional white specks). The small amount of white in the mix was _very _noticeable when compared with the original black sand alone.

I agree the black sand is sold at a premium price, but it looks good. The play sand looks nice as well. I rationalize the expense of the black sand by remembering that sand won't ever really "go bad" and can always be washed out and used in other tanks down the road.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I just came to this thread, but I have a couple of comments. First, the vinegar test. It is not totally accurate/reliable; the household vinegar is too weak of an acid [after all, we do eat/drink it on foods] to be a certainty. A better acid to use is the Regent #2 in the API nitrate test, as it is stronger. But, if vinegar does fizz, it would mean that the substance is calcareous.

The paver sand is as AbbeysDad clearly stated, so avoid it. Obviously it is calcareous, plus the binding issue.

Mixing different substrates usually does not work. It "looks" artificial. Especially when dark colours like black or brown are mixed with anything.

I have Quikrete [or however it is spelt] playsand in my 115g, 33g and 10g now. It is inert, and although it is not as dark underwater as it is in air, it is still neutral. I reduce my lighting anyway, and have floating plants, and a lot of wood, rock, substrate plants--all of which help. It is almost identical to the sand in many Amazonian streams, particularly the Rio ***** basin. So for most corys it is like "home." I am truly pleased with the results.

Byron.


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## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

Thanks for the help, everyone. I was originally looking for the type of sand that Byron uses. I had read through his previous posts and went hunting. The sand he uses is my ideal look, and I thought the paver sand was it. They're made by the same company and look identical. Though, in my defense, it is a non-binding paver sand. But in any case, boy, what a big mistake! Well, for a S.A. tank, anyway.

One of the things I dislike about the play sand is its light color. After mixing a small test batch of sands, I agree that mixing sand colors looks unnatural, DKRST and Byron. But, ultimately, I decided I'm okay with the light color of play sand because I think the leaf litter will darken the bottom enough to make my mid and upper strata fish feel comfy.

Plus, my Aquarium Assistant (my daughter) and I will have a great time oak leaf hunting this fall. :-D

Thanks everyone!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Yes, leaves are very authentic and will also be darker. I collected some fallen oak leaves in my back yard last fall, dried them, and they last for weeks in the tank. Let them fall naturally from the tree, and sit on the ground until quite "dead" to avoid any leaf juices remaining in the veins. Then lay them out on something to thoroughly dry, I used plywood (untreated/unpainted).


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## k19smith (Aug 19, 2011)

Sorry to high jack the thread but does it matter what kind of oak leaves or can it be any oak tree at all?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

k19smith said:


> Sorry to high jack the thread but does it matter what kind of oak leaves or can it be any oak tree at all?


Oak leaves are safe when dried. Almond leaves are too, they are often sold in some fish stores. I believe there are other deciduous trees whose leaves are OK, but there are some that are not, they are toxic. I knew a cichlid enthusiast who used some leaves as spawning sites, and all was well for a few weeks, then suddenly all the fish died from the toxins secreted by the leaves.


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## k19smith (Aug 19, 2011)

I just was not sure as we have at least 5 maybe more types of oak trees here. I'll be stocking up on them soon.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

k19smith said:


> I just was not sure as we have at least 5 maybe more types of oak trees here. I'll be stocking up on them soon.


There are many species of oak tree; but an oak is an oak, and the leaves are not toxic when dried.


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## alysalouise (Mar 15, 2011)

Byron said:


> There are many species of oak tree; but an oak is an oak, and the leaves are not toxic when dried.


 

Do you bring them inside to dry?

:hmm:

Would maybe putting them on top of a dryer be okay to dry them?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

alysalouise said:


> Do you bring them inside to dry?
> 
> :hmm:
> 
> Would maybe putting them on top of a dryer be okay to dry them?


I let them dry naturally in air, just lay them out on a table (dryer is fine) but not on something like newspaper as they might pick up the ink.


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## alysalouise (Mar 15, 2011)

Byron said:


> I let them dry naturally in air, just lay them out on a table (dryer is fine) but not on something like newspaper as they might pick up the ink.


 
Maybe put them on a blank white sheet of paper then?

Always lots of oak leaves here, and i think it would look nice in one of my tanks


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

alysalouise said:


> Maybe put them on a blank white sheet of paper then?
> 
> Always lots of oak leaves here, and i think it would look nice in one of my tanks


I used a sheet of untreated/unpainted plywood. Plain paper should be fine. If you pick them up on a dry day they shouldn't be too wet anyway.


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