# All fish Gasping for Air



## davidBed

Hey guys

My fish seem to be gasping for air, Unfortunately i don't think i have done the proper cycle :-?. 

i tested for nitrate which came back as 0, however i do not have a amonia testing kit, i feel pretty stupid not letting the tank cycle properly which could kill my livestock.

Tank Temp is 27-28c 
Cleaned Filter.
Added Water Conditioner.
100Gal Corner Tank

Fish 
2 x Guppies
1 x platies
5 x Neon Tetra
1 x Red-tailed Shark
5 x mollies 
1 x Pleco


I beleive this might be an amonia spike, as a couple of days ago the fish were acting ok. the only thing iv'e added recently is a fish tank skull.

Should i do a 40% water change, iv'e also read that i should get some freshwater salt?

thanks for you advice


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## 1077

davidBed said:


> Hey guys
> 
> My fish seem to be gasping for air, Unfortunately i don't think i have done the proper cycle :-?.
> 
> i tested for nitrate which came back as 0, however i do not have a amonia testing kit, i feel pretty stupid not letting the tank cycle properly which could kill my livestock.
> 
> Tank Temp is 27-28c
> Cleaned Filter.
> Added Water Conditioner.
> 100Gal Corner Tank
> 
> Fish
> 2 x Guppies
> 1 x platies
> 5 x Neon Tetra
> 1 x Red-tailed Shark
> 5 x mollies
> 1 x Pleco
> 
> 
> I beleive this might be an amonia spike, as a couple of days ago the fish were acting ok. the only thing iv'e added recently is a fish tank skull.
> 
> Should i do a 40% water change, iv'e also read that i should get some freshwater salt?
> 
> thanks for you advice


 
I would immediately do 50 percent water change using dechlorinator that detoxifies ammonia,and nitrites . PRIME or AMQUEL+ are good at this.
I would also reduce feedings to once every other day and only feed what you see them eat in a couple minutes.
I would invest in a test kit such as the API Frsehwater master kit which is more accurate than test strips.
With this test kit, i would measure the ammonia and nitrite levels each day to ensure that they remain below .025. If they rose above this number i would perform 30 to 40 percent water changes using one of the afore mentioned conditioners (dechlorinators).
I would not touch the filter s for the next three weeks. If you don't over feed, then the filters should stay relatively clean and more importantly,, the bacteria needed (good kind) will develop there and thus help reduce levels of ammonia and nitrites that at elevated levels will kill your fish.
Read up on nitrification process in aquariums .


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## davidBed

1077 said:


> I would immediately do 50 percent water change using dechlorinator that detoxifies ammonia,and nitrites . PRIME or AMQUEL+ are good at this.
> I would also reduce feedings to once every other day and only feed what you see them eat in a couple minutes.
> I would invest in a test kit such as the API Frsehwater master kit which is more accurate than test strips.
> With this test kit, i would measure the ammonia and nitrite levels each day to ensure that they remain below .025. If they rose above this number i would perform 30 to 40 percent water changes using one of the afore mentioned conditioners (dechlorinators).
> I would not touch the filter s for the next three weeks. If you don't over feed, then the filters should stay relatively clean and more importantly,, the bacteria needed (good kind) will develop there and thus help reduce levels of ammonia and nitrites that at elevated levels will kill your fish.
> Read up on nitrification process in aquariums .


 
Ordered Amquel Plus, 250 Ml bottle and API Freshwater Master Kit.

will change water tonight 50%

Thanks

8)


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## 1077

davidBed said:


> Ordered Amquel Plus, 250 Ml bottle and API Freshwater Master Kit.
> 
> will change water tonight 50%
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 8)


 I believe you may have destroyed the good bacteria that may have been developing in your filter or on the filter material when you cleaned it. Always clean this material Pads,sponges,cartridges etc in dechlorinated water or in the old water you take out during weekly water changes. It is the chlorine in tapwater that destroy's the benefical bacteria that we need to protect.


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## davidBed

1077 said:


> I believe you may have destroyed the good bacteria that may have been developing in your filter or on the filter material when you cleaned it. Always clean this material Pads,sponges,cartridges etc in dechlorinated water or in the old water you take out during weekly water changes. It is the chlorine in tapwater that destroy's the benefical bacteria that we need to protect.


 
thank you for the advise

just done a 50% water change, fish seem alot more happier now, just waiting for my products to come through, unfortunately one of my older guppies died, over the last couple of days he's been flashing and looked ill. i put some white spot medication in the tank to stop the ich from hatching, hopefull that will stop the spread, will do a 25 % water change tomorrow and reduce feed to once a day.

Am i doing the right thing?


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## 1077

davidBed said:


> thank you for the advise
> 
> just done a 50% water change, fish seem alot more happier now, just waiting for my products to come through, unfortunately one of my older guppies died, over the last couple of days he's been flashing and looked ill. i put some white spot medication in the tank to stop the ich from hatching, hopefull that will stop the spread, will do a 25 % water change tomorrow and reduce feed to once a day.
> 
> Am i doing the right thing?


Would change water anytime the ammonia and or nitrite levels are above .25 
Until you get a test kit,I might change the water at 25 percent daily. Course this means you will have to add enough medicine to treat the water that you remove. Are you sure the fishes have ICH? Only add enough medication to treat how ever much you take out. If you have carbon in the filter,you will need to remove it or it will remove medication and meds won't work. If your filter has carbon in cartridges,cut them open with razor blade or scissors and dump out the carbon and stick the cartridges back in the filter. This way you don't lose too much bacteria while at the same time,leaving the floss part of the cartridges in place to allow bacteria to continue to develop.
If your fish have ICH, you are in a tough spot. You need to change water to keep ammonia and nitrite levels under control ,as well as treating the replacement water from each water change with more medication.


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## 1077

Addition to previous post... If your fishes do not have salt looking white spots all over them and all fish are not flashing or scraping against objects,it is possible that they are suffering from ammonia burns which irritate the gills. In this case water changes should bring relief without the use of medications. would not treat fishes with meds unless I was sure as to what I was treating. 
I would however slowly over a couple days,raise the temp in the tank to 82 to 84 degrees and leave it there for a couple weeks. If fishes do begin showing the tiny white spots associated with ICH. I might try Salt(aquarium) at a rate of 3 teaspoons per gal for two weeks .Only add salt for how ever many gallons you replace after water change.Hope some of this helps.


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## Bacchus

if your fish are all gasping you need to do a large water change, and fast. 

you shouldnt treat them for ich if you have not seen symptoms besides flashing...that is just going to stress them out even more. you should be doing up to a 50% water change every single day until your tank is cycled or until your ammonia levels stay under .25 ppm. when you do a water change you should not touch the filter at all, at least not for several months...when it starts to get dirty looking, you can give it a dunk or two in tank water...but you really want it to be dirty. if youre using carbon you can carefully remove it. you may want to keep the carbon _for now _to remove the ich meds, but it is not a big deal to not run carbon. i would _not_ raise your temps any at all if you are consistently having toxic ammonia levels; that will kill them even faster. also, i would not use salt, at least not at full dosages.....plecos do not like salt. i really hope you do not have ich because during a cycle is a _bad_time for that. if you do lots of water changes it is possible you will avoid an ich outbreak. 

you pretty much have 3 options:

1. take all your fish back and do a fishless cycle.
2. keep it as is and be prepared to do a LOT of water changes.
3. find somebody with an established tank, cut off a piece of their filter media and add it to yours.


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## kelly528

I might also add that flashing can be caused by any sort of skin irritation, be it a parasite, a chemical in the water, a 'slime coat enhancer' (which work by irritating the fish's skin causing it to produce more slime) OR mild ammonia burns.


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## 1077

Bacchus said:


> if your fish are all gasping you need to do a large water change, and fast.
> 
> you shouldnt treat them for ich if you have not seen symptoms besides flashing...that is just going to stress them out even more. you should be doing up to a 50% water change every single day until your tank is cycled or until your ammonia levels stay under .25 ppm. when you do a water change you should not touch the filter at all, at least not for several months...when it starts to get dirty looking, you can give it a dunk or two in tank water...but you really want it to be dirty. if youre using carbon you can carefully remove it. you may want to keep the carbon _for now _to remove the ich meds, but it is not a big deal to not run carbon. i would _not_ raise your temps any at all if you are consistently having toxic ammonia levels; that will kill them even faster. also, i would not use salt, at least not at full dosages.....plecos do not like salt. i really hope you do not have ich because during a cycle is a _bad_time for that. if you do lots of water changes it is possible you will avoid an ich outbreak.
> 
> you pretty much have 3 options:
> 
> 1. take all your fish back and do a fishless cycle.
> 2. keep it as is and be prepared to do a LOT of water changes.
> 3. find somebody with an established tank, cut off a piece of their filter media and add it to yours.


 
Original poster has 100 gal tank and not that many fish considering. 
Has already performed 50 percent water change and reported that fish are looking better. Would stick with 25 percent daily water changes until test kit is aquired or take sample of water to fish store and ask them to test it.
I believe has only lost one fish that may or may not have died of ICH and is why I suggested not medicating as you have as well if no symptoms are present . Would stick with water changes and observe the fish before medicating.
Livebearers Original poster has ,will not react negatively to the salt (if needed), at dosage suggested as well as temp suggested. Would place salinity level quite low at around 1.001. have used this dosage with numerous species of fish as well as plecos ,and at one half teaspoon per gal with corys who are a bit more sensitive with no ill effects.
Is good idea to borrow some filter material from a friends tank if possible to help seed the 100 gal with bacteria.
I believe I have offered all I can at this point but original poster according to most recent post appears to be set on medicating the tank. If syptoms of ICH appear,,I would go with salt which is effective along with raising temp.
Treating 100 gal with medications combined with possible needed water changes? will get expensive ,and I would not be inclined to medicate unless necessary. Opinions vary.


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## davidBed

1077 said:


> Original poster has 100 gal tank and not that many fish considering.
> Has already performed 50 percent water change and reported that fish are looking better. Would stick with 25 percent daily water changes until test kit is aquired or take sample of water to fish store and ask them to test it.
> I believe has only lost one fish that may or may not have died of ICH and is why I suggested not medicating as you have as well if no symptoms are present . Would stick with water changes and observe the fish before medicating.
> Livebearers Original poster has ,will not react negatively to the salt (if needed), at dosage suggested as well as temp suggested. Would place salinity level quite low at around 1.001. have used this dosage with numerous species of fish as well as plecos ,and at one half teaspoon per gal with corys who are a bit more sensitive with no ill effects.
> Is good idea to borrow some filter material from a friends tank if possible to help seed the 100 gal with bacteria.
> I believe I have offered all I can at this point but original poster according to most recent post appears to be set on medicating the tank. If syptoms of ICH appear,,I would go with salt which is effective along with raising temp.
> Treating 100 gal with medications combined with possible needed water changes? will get expensive ,and I would not be inclined to medicate unless necessary. Opinions vary.



Wow lots of feedback thanks guys

In relation to the fish, i cannot take them back to the fish store as they are over 5 months old.
i used to have a 50gal tank, however due to the shark getting bigger and wanting more fish we were lucky enough to able to get a 100gal tank.

i made the mistake of getting impatient and killing 4 x new platies in the process as the Amonia in the tank stressed them out and killed them, now only one platy survived, however strangely enough all 5 new mollies survived? are the hardy fish ?

so im now stuck with the fish in cycle, reading through the forums alot of people make the same mistake, fill the tank with water, wait for the temp to get to 27'c and add water conditioner, then add fish without the proper cycle, however the actual affect doesn't take place untill the Amonia spike kicks in, no good bacteria, alot of fish poop and they die off. 

in regards to the salt, what type of salt do you use?


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## Bacchus

for salt, you want to likely avoid table salt because it can contain iodine as well as anti-caking agents. aquarium salt is safe, and i believe kosher salt and sea salt are as well but i would wait for somebody to confirm that. whichever you go with, do not just dump it straight into your tank. rather, you should dissolve it in some tank water and then pour it in. 

if this is a planted tank or if you have any inverts, i would not use it _at all_...as it is with your plec, i wouldnt use more than a 1/2 dose, but different people will tell you different things. 

i know it is a 100 gallon tank, but you will still have to keep doing lots of water changes until the ammonia levels will keep under .25 and eventually to zero. the amount of water you change out should be determined by the levels of ammonia present, not by how much work it will be. if the numbers stay low, fewer/less water changes....if it gets up real high then they will increase.


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## davidBed

Bacchus said:


> for salt, you want to likely avoid table salt because it can contain iodine as well as anti-caking agents. aquarium salt is safe, and i believe kosher salt and sea salt are as well but i would wait for somebody to confirm that. whichever you go with, do not just dump it straight into your tank. rather, you should dissolve it in some tank water and then pour it in.
> 
> if this is a planted tank or if you have any inverts, i would not use it _at all_...as it is with your plec, i wouldnt use more than a 1/2 dose, but different people will tell you different things.
> 
> i know it is a 100 gallon tank, but you will still have to keep doing lots of water changes until the ammonia levels will keep under .25 and eventually to zero. the amount of water you change out should be determined by the levels of ammonia present, not by how much work it will be. if the numbers stay low, fewer/less water changes....if it gets up real high then they will increase.


 
iv'e done daily water changes, 25%, the fish seem ok, iv'e noticed green algea starting to show in my tank which im hoping is the good bacteria. I have plastic plants, however upon reading the forum will exhange to live plants which helps with Oxygen, the only fish that has died is a Neon Tetra after close look it looks like his tail has gone, so i think my red-tailed shark is getting abit territorial, especially with the mollies that keep attimadating it. it's quite funny to see the mollies go in his ship then get chased around the tank. :lol::lol:, but im keeping a close eye caused i dont want my fish to be stressed so may have to hide his territory abit more maybe some more plants ect...


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## Bacchus

if your red tailed shark is getting aggressive, adding some more decorations and plants and hidey holes will definitely help....lots of things to break up its line of sight. those do get to a pretty good size and are known to get territorial as you mentioned. i know those water changes are a hassle but keep them up and your fish will have a much higher survival rate. that test kit is going to be important until those numbers get to zero. 

have you tested yet for ammonia? that will tell you if the water changes are still needed so much. hopefully they wont be....too bad you cannot get a hold of some seeded media


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## karjean

If you did not received your kit yet, bring a sample to your LFS to get it tested. They usually do it for free, i do understand it is probably a hassle, but at least you will have a reading.


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## redchigh

My LFS uses strips.

Also wanted to say salt would be a catch 22-
Salt often raises PH, and a higher PH the ammonium (less toxic) turns to ammonia (more toxic)

Also... I thought neons liked soft water?
I know livebearers need above 7.

What's your PH?

Also... table salt has iodine, but not enough to cause any damage.
(at a tsp or so per gallon, the iodine levels are hardly measurable)

Also, keep an eye out for some Stress-Zyme, it CLAIMS to trigger cycling- sometimes getting a tank to cycle in 7 days.

Also, adding all the things like ich medication, salt, etc will likely slow the cycling process...


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## davidBed

redchigh said:


> My LFS uses strips.
> 
> Also wanted to say salt would be a catch 22-
> Salt often raises PH, and a higher PH the ammonium (less toxic) turns to ammonia (more toxic)
> 
> Also... I thought neons liked soft water?
> I know livebearers need above 7.
> 
> What's your PH?
> 
> Also... table salt has iodine, but not enough to cause any damage.
> (at a tsp or so per gallon, the iodine levels are hardly measurable)
> 
> Also, keep an eye out for some Stress-Zyme, it CLAIMS to trigger cycling- sometimes getting a tank to cycle in 7 days.
> 
> Also, adding all the things like ich medication, salt, etc will likely slow the cycling process...


 

Thanks Guys

Test results came back with
Nitrate 0
Amonia 0
PH 7.6 

iv'e noticed that my tank is 20 Gal, not 100, the other question i have how many fish can a 20 Gal hold?


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## karjean

Before asking how much the capacity to hold, could you update on what is left with the type and amount of fish in the tank, then you will get a better amount.


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## davidBed

karjean said:


> Before asking how much the capacity to hold, could you update on what is left with the type and amount of fish in the tank, then you will get a better amount.


 
i have 

1 x red tailed shark
1 x guppies
1 x platy
5 x mollies
4 x tetra's
1 x pleco 

i was thinking some smaller fish, anyone would recommend.?


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## kelly528

0 small fish. The Red Tailed Shark and the Pleco will grow way too big for that tank (RTS get 6", Plecos 12") 

Of course I am assuming you have a common pleco here.

In any case the RTS will kill anything smaller than it when its full grown, they are very territorial when they mature. 

Even mollies (again not sure what kind you have) get rather big, usually a 30g minimum is recommended for them. Some species get up to 6". 


And the test strips.... just because your LFS uses them doesn't make them any more reliable. LFS also use cups to house bettas and feed their fish the cheapest food they can find but that doesn't mean its a wise thing for you to do. 

I would try to offload / upsize the larger fish then start working with whats left in the 20g.


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## sage5911

*Lots of questions... need lots of answers...*

I have 6 mollies; 3 male, 3 female. I have 2 guppies, one of each. One of the mollies is covered in white spots all over the place that I noticed last night and this morning another one has it. I am pretty sure its ick... how do you treat it? Also, most of my fish are hanging around the bottom and in corners. Why do they do this? Oh, and I have babies in my tank too. If I treat the ick will it hust my babies. I have 11 left. Please help. I feel lost. Thanks.


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## kelly528

Sagestart a new thread so we can help you without tying this one up and getting off topic. Could be confusing for anyone trying to give advice to the original poster.

Please include the following informatio in your post:

-Tank size
-Tank inhabitants
-How often do you clean it?
-How much water do you change?

-Temperature?
-pH?
-Ammonia?
-Nitrite?
-Nitrate?


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