# SW/FW bacteria - same or different?



## Aquarius Keeper (Sep 22, 2008)

This is related to my other post but that thread is all over the place so -

Does anybody know if the nitrifying bacteria in SW and FW are the same?

The reason I'm asking is - in converting a brackish tank to a full marine tank - I could do it very slowly over a couple weeks if it meant preserving the bacteria I've been culturing all this time - I was under the impression it's the same bacteria in both environments - if it isn't and the high salinity is just going to kill my present bacteria I might as well just do it all at once.

Anybody know?

Thanks!

Jonathan


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## Aquarius Keeper (Sep 22, 2008)

I guess this isn't common knowledge?

Well, for me its a mute point - I visited my lfs and he told me his live rock was 99% cured and that after adding it I could add fish almost immediately (I trust him, he's a fellow Berkeley grad - besides, we live in LA so I have good reason to believe it's fresh) - so I just upped the salinity to 1.022. Sorry bacteria!!

But if anybody knows the answer to the question, I would be very interested to hear it!

Thanks,

Jonathan


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## Kellsindell (Sep 15, 2008)

as far as that answer goes i can't give you it for sure, but when i go to the lfs they have the bottles called tlc and in them they have bacteria that moves the cycle more quckly. well they have 2 bottles one for fresh and one for salt. 

as for the cycle. i don't believe that and neither should you. i used live rock that i have had for 4 years for my 55g tank and it still had all the cycle results. He just wants you to spend more money mate. It really doesn't matter what you do, you'll still have a cycle and it'll always be there and you'll still kill sensitive fish. If you have a clown or damsel that's fine, but a lawnmower blenny or a tang or firefish, yeah they'll all die.


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## Kellsindell (Sep 15, 2008)

Kellsindell said:


> If you have a clown or damsel that's fine, but a lawnmower blenny or a tang or firefish,


FYI those were just examples of a few fish that'll die or survive, not a complete list.


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## Aquarius Keeper (Sep 22, 2008)

Don't worry - I'm new to this and have limited resources - I'm not going to stock anything but very hardy fish.

So why big brand bacteria-in-a-bottle products (API STRESSZYME etc...) say it works for salt and fresh?

As for the cycle - I don't think he wants me to spend more money - he knows I'm going to buy it from him anyway.

He's had it in cycled enclosure for 3 months, he says.

Anyway, I wasn't planning to add fish with the live rock, of course I'll wait until the water parameters are safe. I was hoping that would be a couple days but if it's longer, so be it.

Thanks,

Jonathan


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## Kellsindell (Sep 15, 2008)

it's the water that needs cycling not the rock. tell him to throw a tang into salt water in the time he's recommending with liverock that he wants to give you and have it not be tied into the main system and see how long that sucker lasts... or if he'll even do it.


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## Aquarius Keeper (Sep 22, 2008)

The water needs cycling?

I thought "cycling" referred to the culturing of nitrifying bacteria on various porous surfaces?

I thought live rock needs to be "cured" because it comes with a high degree of dead organics which will decay and cause a spike in ammonia/nitrite/nitrate.

Now I am getting confused.


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## Kellsindell (Sep 15, 2008)

the water hold the bacteria the rock just helps with the filtration. if you do a cycle with no liverock and sand, just the tank the bacteria has to be somewhere.


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## Aquarius Keeper (Sep 22, 2008)

In my research I found that the majority of the bacteria forms on a solid surface - I thought that was the whole Idea of biological filtration and a big part of why current is so important - it circulates the water over the bacteria colony, feeding it nitrites etc... I'm not sure what you think live rock does if it isn't a host for bacterial colonies.

However, I do know of an old fish keeper who runs a shop in Little Tokyo, who keeps small salt-water tanks healthy with nothing but an airstone, so what you are saying is possible. Still I think even in that case most of the bacteria is in the sand. That guys is something of a magician though, I don't know how he does it...

If bacteria were able to maintain a population in open water, what's the point of bioligcal filters and sumps that run water through sponges, ceramic rings, live rock etc?


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## Kellsindell (Sep 15, 2008)

much of it will be to much for the water (for the livestock) which is why we use the filtration methods of LR and live sand(or dead sand that became live). it absorbs those nutrients making the water less harmful and more stable.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

There is a lot of incorrect information on this thread. 

Bacteria lives inside the live rock. Live rock can be moved from one aquarium to another, and if it is kept moist the bacteria will generally survive and be capable of processing ammonia and nitrite immediately upon being placed in the aquarium. 

The concern with live rock is not cycling. It is curing. These are different things. Curing is the process of allowing organisms on the live rock to die. These are life forms which will not live in an aquarium, or have been damaged in shipping. When live rock is received at the distributor or LFS, it is generally scrubbed of anything that is dead or dying. As the die off occurs, the bacteria inside the live rock (which are already present) will process ammonia and nitrite, causing high levels of Nitrate in the curing container. The protein skimmer runs on overload, and needs to be emptied every few hours. This happens behind the sceens of retail, and most hobbyists are buying live rock that is fully cured and ready to be placed into an aquarium.

Anyone who has ever set up an exhibit at their state or county fair understands that live rock is a movable source of bacteria. I have set up dozens of marine aquariums and fully stocked them with fish on the same day. Ammonia and nitrite spikes rarely occur. This is no different than moving a fully cycled sponge filter from one freshwater aquarium to another. The needed bacteria do NOT live in the water. They live on the filter, and in a marine system the bacteria is initially in the live rock, and later spreads to the sand bed.

Read this carefully. I am not advocating adding fish such as Tangs to an aquarium until the aquarium is mature. There is a lot going on with the water in a marine system and it needs time to mature. This has nothing to do with ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate. There is something to be said for "aged" water. Mature systems "feel" different than newly set up aquariums. I suspect the development of algae and populations of copepods, amphipods, etc have a lot to do with this. Most fish have a higher survival rate in established aquariums, which I consider to be aquariums that have been set up for 6 months or longer.

Now, the original question. In freshwater systems nitrosomosa and nitrbacter bacteria process ammonia and nitrite. These are not the same bacteria that accomplish this task in saltwater. I forget the names of the saltwater variety and could easily google it, but i will leave that for you.


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## Aquarius Keeper (Sep 22, 2008)

Thanks Pasfur -that's really helpful and clears up a lot.

Just one thing - You say you set up exhibits with live rock and add fish the same day ... but then you say it isn't a good idea to put fish in an "immature" aquarium.

I'm just going for 1-3 fish here, no inverts or corals ... are you literally suggesting I wait six months?

Thanks!

Jonathan


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

I am definitely not suggesting that you wait six months. It all depends on the fish. One example is the Copperband Butterfly. This is a fish that needs a large aquarium and an established mature environment. I would not place a Copperband Butterfly in an aquarium less than 4 to 6 months of age.


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