# Removed my UGF and all my rocks 4-5 weeks ago.... tank is still cycling... help



## candymancan

Hey guys.. My 27 gallon hexagon had a UGF and blue rocks with a single HOB filter since the day I got it 14 years ago... Obviously I change the HOB filter when it gets clogged and dirty and so forth..

Anyway I started live plants like 3-4 months ago and I just got sick of the nasty blue rocks I had in the tank, so I removed the UGF completely and I removed all the rocks and replaced the substrate with floramax substrate which is supposedly good for plants..

In doing so it started a cycle on my tank.. Now I have like 28 fish in this tank... Mostly small fish like neon tetra's and glow light tetras, and white clouds, but I also have a few medium sized fish like Celebes rainbows and neon dwarf rainbows neither are fully grown yet.. The only big fish I have are 3 adult sized gold barbs.. Now since changing the substrate.. In the last 4-5 weeks my plants are literally exploded in growth and color.. My Red Nesaea has literally doubled in height and bushy-ness.. It looks like a forest now.. The color was long changing from red to green on the new growth however now that the plants are growing roots and growing really bushy and tall they are changing more to a deep orange color is really beautiful.. My Telenthara cardinalis "red" has tripled in size from the little packet I got it from in petsmart and its extremely bushy and much taller, and its a nice ruby deep red color on all the leaves.... 

Oh and please I don't need posts saying I have too many fish in the tank, I don't care for those opinions.. Its my tank and I will do with as I please.. I haven't had any fish die in like 7 months and prior to doing this my ammonia was 0 and because my tank is extremely heavily planted the fish have planty of hiding places and room to swim around

The problem im having though isn't the plants.. The problem is I have had 4-8PPM of ammonia in the tank for 4 going on 5 weeks now.. I haven't had a single fish die, nor any fish gasping for air or struggling or red gills and the reason why is because I put a capful of prime in the tank every 24 hours... But its getting expensive... I have gone through an entire 500ml bottle.. and I cant afford this... But then I cant afford replacing my fish either..

Soo... how much longer is this cycle going to take ?? I even put a filter from another tank in mine and it still didn't do anything.. I put a bottle of API bacteria in the tank and it didn't do anything either... I raised my temps to 82f and it still isn't doing anything... Could my UGF have really had that huge of an impact on my cycle ? Or is 4-5 weeks just not long enough yet to get a big enough BB colony for the fish I have in the tank..


----------



## Agent13

Actually, you,re right. there might not be too many fish for the tank... I'm thinking about it and have concluded there is too little tank for the fish. 
Best of luck!


----------



## Boredomb

Well what plants do you have in there? Also what are your parameters reading? If you are adding that much prime everyday why not do water changes to bring down the ammonia instead of just binding it with the prime? If there is nothing in the tank to take it up then its just going to continue to go up.


----------



## Chesh

I agree with BDM, water changes are cheaper than Prime, for sure! 

I know you asked not to hear that your tank is overstocked, but it is - and I suspect that's really the root of your problem. Even seeding that you did, the BB seems to be unable to catch up with the ammonia the fish are adding to the system. 

I'm still a beginner, don't have 20 years experience, but I've read about situations in overstocked tanks in which the bioload of the inhabitants is actually too high for a sufficient colony of bacteria to form. I know things were going well before the substrate change, and I've never used this substrate. Is it possible that you've lessened the surface area for bacteria to colonize on by switching out from gravel? Something to look into, perhaps one of the others will have something more to offer here!

Adding a greedy floating plant like duckweed could help you out a bit by up-taking a decent amount of ammonia from the system (provided you have proper lighting, etc for it to thrive) A lot of people don't prefer duckweed, as it is difficult to remove, but in this situation, it may be the best option for you. . .

Another thing to possibly look into is the bottled bacteria that they sell in fish shops. Again, no personal experience with this, so I don't know which to recommend as best. Worth a try, I guess? Maybe one of our other members will know more about this. . . 

Honestly, if this were my tank, I would divide the stock with another tank (even if I had to buy it new), toss some duckweed in, and slowly add the misplaced fish back in, little by little, after things settle down. (well, *if* it were my tank I would probably just leave both up and running, so as not to overstock. I'm much happier to run my tanks on the lighter side of stocking - but that's me!)

This is a difficult situation, for sure. I hope you get everyone through with no losses. . . Good luck.


----------



## Agent13

Owekaaay. Maybe I have some to add that might be helpful. Since I keep African cichlids overstocking is something I do as common practice when keeping those specific fish( but not as overstocked as your tank ). Well anyway the way to manage that is going well above the norm for filtration. My tank is 72g has 20( maybe more?) decent sized poop machines in it and I run 2 eheim 2217s on it. That's running the 528g per hour through my filters. And honestly in overstocking that's modest.. I need to be running 720g/h. But that alone only helps with the BB colony to deal with ammonia and nitrite. Then water changes deal with the nitrates. At 4-8 ppm ammonia your cycle is in stall mode. Chesh may be on to the way to *possibly* fix the stall in your cycle. But aside from that your filtration needs a. 10x turnover rate or more .. But somehow not creating a cyclone in you hex lol ( I have no clue how to do multiple filters on a small hex). Then I dunno.. Once and if you get this cycle sorted out then you'll have to stay on a good water change routine. At 4-8ppm ammonia I'd be doing water changes of 50% or more every 12 hrs.


Sent from Petguide.com App


----------



## Chesh

Thanks for your input!!! More filtration = more places for the bacteria to colonize, correct? And so *SHOULD* help in getting enough BB into the tank to handle the high bioload? I have no idea how this would be possible in a hex, either :/ And OP's fish are SMALL, maybe not able to handle that much turbulence. . .any way to skip extra filtration, and still add enough surface area for BB to colonize? Or did I miss the point. . .

. . .and I didn't even think of that, Agent! You're totally right - an ammonia level that high absolutely could cause the cycle to stall. CandyMan, do you happen to know the Kh/Gh/Ph on your tap water? Either way, more water changes ARE needed to refresh the system, and lower the ammonia level. What is your current waterchange routine on this tank?


----------



## Agent13

Pretty much .. Yes Chesh. Only thing I can think for not creating a cyclone is switching to a canister with at least a 270gph rating.. Then cut the spray bar to fit and if the current is too strong alter the angle to deflect against the glass first ? Or create an elbow DIY style spray bar one side horizontal holes against the glass mostly and other lateral at a slight upward angle just under the surface. A lot of toying would have to be done to avoid the fish ending up like Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz lol. 


Sent from Petguide.com App


----------



## Tolak

That high of ammonia with healthy fish id question the accuracy of the test
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ao

Perhaps the PH is too low for bacteria colonisation?


Sent from Petguide.com App


----------



## Chesh

Hmm, it seems as if the effects of Prime on the oxygen levels in a tank is debatable. I have moved related posts to their own thread in our Advanced Freshwater Discussions area, those interested in joining that discussion, please feel free to do so!

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...n/effect-prime-oxygen-levels-aquarium-294058/

Back on topic, guys. Any further recommendations to help the OP out here? Looks like he's in a bit of trouble. . . Thank you!


----------



## Tolak

I hate posting from my flippy phone at work, I really do. My last post looks like "test duh test" when I see it on an actual computer at home! 

The strips are famous for being inaccurate, if that is what you're using. The run of the mill API liquid test can be had for $5 online, probably costs $1 to make the thing. It's barely kid's chem set quality, most useful for measuring trends. 

I'd try a different test to start, have a shop test it, whatever is more convenient. Unless your pH is 6.0 or lower bacterial colonization should occur, though more slowly. The upside to this if there is ammonia at that level with a lower pH is that most will be in the nearly harmless ammonium state.


----------



## beaslbob

Chesh said:


> Hmm, it seems as if the effects of Prime on the oxygen levels in a tank is debatable. I have moved related posts to their own thread in our Advanced Freshwater Discussions area, those interested in joining that discussion, please feel free to do so!
> 
> http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...n/effect-prime-oxygen-levels-aquarium-294058/
> 
> Back on topic, guys. Any further recommendations to help the OP out here? Looks like he's in a bit of trouble. . . Thank you!


 
And that is an excellent plan.  IMHO the effects of chemicals is and should be a very general topic where the goods and bads can be discussed.


So Thanks.


worth mor ethem my usual .02


----------



## beaslbob

so getting back on topic as I understand it.

1) you're using prime

2) have or had very high levels of ammonia

3) fish are showing no signs of stress.

I would test ammonia for both the locked and free. I highly suspect all the ammonia is locked.

I would stop doing water changes.

I would add fast growing plants like anacharis.

And let the tank heal itself.

In my one woopsies I have very high levles of ammonia and used prime. But I added the prime for the ammonia one time then tested. The ammonia was all locked and the dangerous free ammonia was almost non existent. 

I finally rinsed out my filter media which was just crushed oyster shells in an diy wet dry. After that ammonia dropped down to 0 in two days. So I basically found the source of the toxin I had inadvertently introduced. Or at least the source at that time and the media may have sucked it all out.

Over the next 3 weeks I experienced a very deep cycle with pH crashing, then nitrItes and nitrates. Finally, the nitrates droped and pH recovered.

Long story but wanted to share.

With no fish stress I think the best thing to do is let the tank recover.

still just my .02


----------



## Barry gibb

I dont no as much as some but a out of date test kit or a unshaken bottle can coz false readings,i read some where of the same problem, turned out the bottle was low makeing the salotion unstable, as its prob not be shaken properly at least once in its life. He change to a fresh bottle and the problem was fixed, cheapest option first could say you a lot of time and worry.

Ether way a hope it works out for you.


----------



## Agent13

you know 4-8ppm of ammonia is a HUGELY wide range. Do you know exactly what it is? Fish still seem ok today?


----------



## Barry gibb

Thats whats making me think a new bottle is needed. The fish are a fine, isnt there even coulouring to the fishes gill? At that level of ammonia you would expect weaker fish.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jentralala

^ But the Prime may be saving them by locking it all up, keeping it from really affecting them, plus the low PH.

When I first started I tested my tank water (didn't cycle properly, stocked it with several pearl gourami) and it was over 8ppm ammonia. But the fish acted healthy and I never lost a one, because my ph was so low (6.2) it didn't properly affect them (this is what I was told from multiple sources and researched independently). Plus I was using Prime in my water changes. I was able to cycle in a few weeks by doing water changes daily, adding Prime, and adding plants. The results were from a brand new liquid test kit, so I know they were accurate (I tested a bunch of other water sources to check). So it is possible to have high ammonia and the fish alive. Not that it is at ALL a desirable or safe situation. 

Now, I'm NOT saying this is an ideal situation, and it shouldn't happen in a properly cycled/cared for tank. It's still dangerous, especially if the ph fluctuates. 

Back to the OP, daily water changes and adding Prime are going to be what you need to do to get through this cycle. If you can add some floating plants (frogbit, water sprite, dwarf water lettuce, duckweed) to help bring down the ammonia a bit, it can be nothing but beneficial (but not a miracle.) I'm not a biologist, but I speak from my personal experiences.


----------



## candymancan

There is no way to tell if its 6 or 7PPM... im using the liquid API master kit... the range on the kit only goes in doubles.. So .25-.50 then 1 then 2 4 8 ect... 

And no I don't think doing water changes is cheaper.. The water bill from changing water every single day would be really high and I doubt adding chlorine to my tank despite me adding a drop or 2 of prime in my bucket when I fill it would help my bacteria grow. I think water changes cause the cycle to last longer because of that. But I did a 70% water change the other day and it only brought my ammonia down to 2PPM.. and now 24 hours later its dark green again.

I dunno like you guys are saying confused to as why my ammonia is reading so high and I haven't had any fish or snail die.. Not even a neon and they are acting and looking like the water is perfect... I magine if after 24 hours my ammonia went from 2PPM back to dark green which is around 4-8.. imagine how high it would be after 7 days or 14 days with no water changes.... Something just doesn't seem right... Maybe it is the prime detoxifying it... but im almost wondering if the prime is causing my cycle to never happen

Anyway, my test kit is fine, I have 4 other tanks in the house and they are all reading 0 except my new 2.6g betta tank which is reading around 4ppm. And the tap water reads around 2PPM because of the chloramine's/ammonia combo..

My test readings are this..

Ammonia 4-8 (you want more accurate I cant give you more acurrate as I explained the test only shows 4 or 8)
Nitrite 0
Nitrates 5-10 
KH is 5
GH is 7
PH is 7.5 
Water temp is always 78f but I upped it to 82f to try and get the bacteria to grow faster

My plants are

Water Sprite, Wistera, Anubias (broad leafed), amazon sword, red tiger lotus, Telenthara Cardinalis ( a lot of it) and red nesaea (a lot as well).. I also have 4 stems of Limnophila hippuroides. The plants are all doing really well.. my telenthara as I said when I got it from petsmart in those tetra bags was only like half inch tall and maybe coverd 2-3 inches with only a few tiny leaves.. Now its like a giant bush and ruby red.. My red neseae lost its red color and its more green/yellow/orange now (IMO looks better like this then just being red) and its tripled in size.. The only plant that seems to be dying and hasn't grown any is the watersprite... and im very confused about that because it literally explodes in my 55g tank... but it looks half dead now and hasn't grown any in my 27g.. im wondering if its the ammonia levels causing it im not sure.

The entire bottom of my tank is covered in plants I cant fit anymore in there lol.. As for my tank stock.. Prior to me tearing out my old blue rocks and my undergravel filter I had all these fish in there and I always had 0 ammonia.. after removing the rocks and filter this is when the ammonia got really high and stayed there... I did this though last month on the 25th.. Its been 36 days now....Could my undergravel filter really have had that HUGE of a impact on my BB ? Im starting to wonder... because the HOB filter even if I took out the filter media in it my ammonia never went above 0 when I had the UGF in the tank.. I honestly always thought the HOB was a useless way to have BB and remove ammonia.. I only kept it in there to clean the water of floating particals and stuff.

Here is a picture of my tank right now


----------



## Agent13

Honestly as it sounds. Yes this change can have that huge of an effect. Your UGF running with a HOB *if I understand UGFs enough*(never used one..even in the early 90's when they were still common) seems like it would remove the solid waste at least before you HOB could really get a proper hold on a BB colony appropriate for your stock. I normally an all for 2 filters, but more so 2 canisters or on a long and larger tank two HOBs would work together also..but maybe these were working against each other?? OK Filter people..chime in those who've used UGFs! 
Now having taken away your UGF are you doing gravel vacuuming ?(substrate vac..whatever..details ;-)) Just to be sure though get the Seachem Ammonia test to see if it's free ammonia your finding. Another note..With the Color guide go to the absolute brightest lit room in you house and let the light shine on your test as you read.but the tube against the white and look really close. I find reading the test under my chandelier .(which is in the room with most of my bigger tanks) I can't read the colors right..come up freaking out that all the sudden there is ammonia then I go to my bathroom light and clearly see it tested at zero. ( I hate dirty tanks so I'm prone to panic ..this is why I rarely test anymore unless I feel reason to. lol)


----------



## candymancan

I haven't done any gravel vacuuming because A. I don't want to do vacuuming with plants, and B.. I have no room to vacuum the gravel really except in the middle if I remove the driftwood... However the Floramax substrate (same rocks as eco complete) have only been in the tank for 36 days now. Since I don't feed my fish that much due to the ammonia problem my gravel is fairly clean... Not to mention with the lack of suction from the powerhead and undergravel filter combo the gravel doesn't get as dirty as it used too.. 

With the UGF you could see the particles get pulled into the rocks once they floated down far enough... The first thing I noticed when taking it out was un eatin food and other particles in the tank would just simply float around until they either got sucked into the HOB or settled on the bottom eventually.. Another thing I noticed is my bigger bottom fish kick up the particles if they suddenly swim super fast (which are the 3 Adult gold barbs I have). If they get freaked out and swim quickly particles of matter get flinged into the water.. I never had this issue with the UGF...


But to answer your question.. No my HOB was easily able to catch enough junk in the water to build up a bacteria farm... You should have seen the filter media.. I had to replace it every 3-4 weeks because it would clog and overflow really quickly and the filter pad would be solid brown and made of slim almost lol.. I never once cared about removing the entire filter media and replacing it with a fresh one.. (I had too because the media would literally be mush after a month) because like I said even if I removed the media and turned off my HOB my ammonia would be 0 with my 25-30 fish and it was because of the UGF.. However you have people online who claim UGF cant handle and aren't good filters like HOB filters... It has been my experience HOB are nothing compared to UGF and I am experiencing this first hand and noticed it when like I said I removed my media and I could leave it out for a week and ammonia would be 0 with this large number of fish... 

I have experienced the same thing in my 30g tank.. That tank is 22+ years old has and still uses the UGF/Power head combo... but it also has a double filter media HOB filter.. For 50-75g tanks.. It too has the same effects my 27g hex had.. I could shut the entire HOB off... and ammonia would be 0 no matter what...


Now One thing I did notice, and did know was UGF can be a huge trap for nitrates.... Eventually over time the rocks get so full of crap that even vacuuming them doesn't help lower nitrates... Eventually you get stuff under the UGF and while yes the power head does keep it super clean in the general area its placed in.. The other side or the middle or the front is so dirty when you look under the tank all you see is broken down waste. I had nitrate issues in both tanks so bad that even changing 100% of the water only fixed it for about 3-4 days.. The nitrates were in the tank because of all that waste the UGF sucked up in the substrate that a gravel vacuum couldn't get... What i had to do was grab the plastic tube the powerhead was on and lift up and down pulling the UGF plate up and down.. which dislogged all the junk and the powerhead sucked it up and spit in the tank... Then a gravel vacuum and 70% water changed got the nitrates under control.


Personally between past experiences i have mentioned with the HOB filter media being removed with the UGF running specially with so many fish... and now with no UGF and just the HOB... I think UGF are far superior to HOB filters. They do have nitrate problems though


----------



## Agent13

candymancan said:


> I haven't done any gravel vacuuming because A. I don't want to do vacuuming with plants, and B.. I have no room to vacuum the gravel really except in the middle if I remove the driftwood... However the Floramax substrate (same rocks as eco complete) have only been in the tank for 36 days now. Since I don't feed my fish that much due to the ammonia problem my gravel is fairly clean... Not to mention with the lack of suction from the powerhead and undergravel filter combo the gravel doesn't get as dirty as it used too..
> 
> With the UGF you could see the particles get pulled into the rocks once they floated down far enough... The first thing I noticed when taking it out was un eatin food and other particles in the tank would just simply float around until they either got sucked into the HOB or settled on the bottom eventually.. Another thing I noticed is my bigger bottom fish kick up the particles if they suddenly swim super fast (which are the 3 Adult gold barbs I have). If they get freaked out and swim quickly particles of matter get flinged into the water.. I never had this issue with the UGF...
> 
> 
> But to answer your question.. No my HOB was easily able to catch enough junk in the water to build up a bacteria farm... You should have seen the filter media.. I had to replace it every 3-4 weeks because it would clog and overflow really quickly and the filter pad would be solid brown and made of slim almost lol.. I never once cared about removing the entire filter media and replacing it with a fresh one.. (I had too because the media would literally be mush after a month) because like I said even if I removed the media and turned off my HOB my ammonia would be 0 with my 25-30 fish and it was because of the UGF.. However you have people online who claim UGF cant handle and aren't good filters like HOB filters... It has been my experience HOB are nothing compared to UGF and I am experiencing this first hand and noticed it when like I said I removed my media and I could leave it out for a week and ammonia would be 0 with this large number of fish...
> 
> I have experienced the same thing in my 30g tank.. That tank is 22+ years old has and still uses the UGF/Power head combo... but it also has a double filter media HOB filter.. For 50-75g tanks.. It too has the same effects my 27g hex had.. I could shut the entire HOB off... and ammonia would be 0 no matter what...
> 
> 
> Now One thing I did notice, and did know was UGF can be a huge trap for nitrates.... Eventually over time the rocks get so full of crap that even vacuuming them doesn't help lower nitrates... Eventually you get stuff under the UGF and while yes the power head does keep it super clean in the general area its placed in.. The other side or the middle or the front is so dirty when you look under the tank all you see is broken down waste. I had nitrate issues in both tanks so bad that even changing 100% of the water only fixed it for about 3-4 days.. The nitrates were in the tank because of all that waste the UGF sucked up in the substrate that a gravel vacuum couldn't get... What i had to do was grab the plastic tube the powerhead was on and lift up and down pulling the UGF plate up and down.. which dislogged all the junk and the powerhead sucked it up and spit in the tank... Then a gravel vacuum and 70% water changed got the nitrates under control.
> 
> 
> Personally between past experiences i have mentioned with the HOB filter media being removed with the UGF running specially with so many fish... and now with no UGF and just the HOB... I think UGF are far superior to HOB filters. They do have nitrate problems though


As stated before I can't speak on UGF but when it comes to filters. I find canisters(the right ones!) to be best. I run all types and brands of HOB and canisters and the effort is so much less once you get the jist of how a canister works(which is what I use.actually 2 on my overstocked tank). I will not argue that HOBs are superior. However..are you tossing all the media when it's gunked up to replace? I've done overstocked with a HOB before and the right filter is important with those more so then other types IMO. Also never tossing your media..just weekly rinse in old tank water to degunk during water change(thats only what I do for overstocked..weekly 80% WC and vac). Yeseven in my impressive jungle I vac it as best I can without pulling up plants..and heavy rooted plants I'll stick the vac right on the base of the plant or if short enough over the whole plant. Poo tends to end up in the plants base. 

sorry I ramble.. main question..was do you replace filter media all the way? What is your current filter?


----------



## candymancan

Well I have been using tetra Bio bags as my filter media for my HOB's. They are white floss filters with little carbon pouches you open and pour in.. The problem with them is you cant "rinse" or wash them because im telling you and I have said this a few times... they literally turn into complete mush... I pull them out and they fall apart right there after 1-2 weeks lol... I think my problem is I grew up with them and they get dirty so fast that I just kept using them... They are extremely overpriced though and they have gotten worse as far as turning into mush.. I looked online and found reviews that have noticed the same problem quality has dropped. Mine have beei nthe tank for 36 days as I said.. I just lifted them up to look at them and they broke apart and disintergrated lol....

I went to petsmart today and I decided to get the marineland filter media.. The blue floss that you have to cut to shape... I noticed the blue marineland floss that in my 55g... doesn't break up and turn to mush.. Im using a penguin 350.. I just pull it out and rinse and its as good as new...


HOWEVER I do notice that blue floss doesn't get NEARLY as diry as the white stuff from tetra so I don't think that stuff filters very well im not sure... Im trying some in the 30g tank right now... I just finished 2 weeks of meds for columnaris in that tank and instead of buying $20 for 12 premade filters with carbon from tetra I got that blue floss you have to cut from marineland for $7.. But the pad I think its overpriced now that I opened it and cut it.. In order to make a double layer pad like the premade ones it took half the blue floss carpet to make only 2 filters... For $7 that's expensive... But if they don't turn into mush and actually last then I guess itll be worth it..

Anyway... if my ammonia levels don't go down in the next 2 weeks im going to look into get some secondary filter... Im not too experienced with other filters.. I was looking at filters with like little round cylinder rocks that claim to be good for BB bacteria to live in... I dunno


----------



## jaysee

I don't think that that's necessarily too many fish - I kept close to 40 fish in my 30 hex when I had it. They were all small schooling fish. That being said, in my experience the dwarf neon rainbows grow to be much too large and too active for your tank. Mine clearly outgrew the 45 gallon (3 ft). They really need a 4 foot long tank. But it's your tank - you're the one that has to look at it


----------



## Agent13

OK.. So no BB can get a hold on your tank at all..plus super high ammonia can stall the cycle. Got it! I have that cut to shape Marineland bonded filter pad in all my filters as a backup plan if I ever get a new tank or finally decide to put forth the effort to setup the 240. Do not throw away the bags! Empty the carbon out then stuff it in wit the blue media you're talking about. And you have another cycled tank??!?!? Take a portion of that media out too and put it in the hex. the seeded filter media is what keeps your cycle..not the substrate so much or anything realy as effectively as you filter media. I mean hell..I switched a 20g to a 55g and set it up all new even new sand everything squeaky clean but addd seeded media from my 75g to the filter.. the same blue media from marine land. I don't know how you filter is set up but if you want to catch fine particles... get Rena's "super micro filtration" pad for filstar XP and cut that to size as you would have with the marineland media. The fine filtration side should be after the coarse side.water runs through the coarse side then the fine side...understand?


----------



## candymancan

Agent13 said:


> OK.. So no BB can get a hold on your tank at all..plus super high ammonia can stall the cycle. Got it! I have that cut to shape Marineland bonded filter pad in all my filters as a backup plan if I ever get a new tank or finally decide to put forth the effort to setup the 240. Do not throw away the bags! Empty the carbon out then stuff it in wit the blue media you're talking about. And you have another cycled tank??!?!? Take a portion of that media out too and put it in the hex. the seeded filter media is what keeps your cycle..not the substrate so much or anything realy as effectively as you filter media. I mean hell..I switched a 20g to a 55g and set it up all new even new sand everything squeaky clean but addd seeded media from my 75g to the filter.. the same blue media from marine land. I don't know how you filter is set up but if you want to catch fine particles... get Rena's "super micro filtration" pad for filstar XP and cut that to size as you would have with the marineland media. The fine filtration side should be after the coarse side.water runs through the coarse side then the fine side...understand?



Yea i already know all that but bacteria in a filter media doesnt hold nearly as much as the substrate does. At least thats my opinion.. When i got my 55g i used both filters from 30g and put it into the 55g and it didnt instantly cycle my tank and i also used fthe filter from 27g and squeezed it in the tank atill no instant cycle.. I had one fish in the tank and it took 3-4 weeks for it completetly cylce... I did or tried this in my 5.5g as well still no instant cycle.. So i honestly never held much belief nore do i think you can instant cycle a tank simply using filter media from another tank.. If that were true both tanks would have been instantly cycled.. And the third my 27g wouldnt be going through what is going throigh.. The reason im going through this cycle is bevause i removed every penble of old rock from my tabk... The rocks have way nore surface area then a filter pad does imo. 

You may be right though about my cycle stalling i too was wondering if the extremely high ammonia is actually having a negative effect on my cycle.. In essence killing or smothering the bacteria from growing... I wish i could research the effects of super high ammonia on a tanks biological filter... I guess what ill try to do is do 50% water changes everyday to keep the levels down and see if that helps the cycle.

One thing though i should note.. Im not a big fan of swapping filter media in other tanks... The reason being is transfering germs to that tabk.. Such as columnaris and stuff like that.. Or parasites and worms


----------



## Agent13

candymancan said:


> Yea i already know all that but bacteria in a filter media doesnt hold nearly as much as the substrate does. At least thats my opinion.. When i got my 55g i used both filters from 30g and put it into the 55g and it didnt instantly cycle my tank and i also used fthe filter from 27g and squeezed it in the tank atill no instant cycle.. I had one fish in the tank and it took 3-4 weeks for it completetly cylce... I did or tried this in my 5.5g as well still no instant cycle.. *So i honestly never held much belief nore do i think you can instant cycle a tank simply using filter media from another tank.. If that were true both tanks would have been instantly cycled.*. And the third my 27g wouldnt be going through what is going throigh.. The reason im going through this cycle is bevause i removed every penble of old rock from my tabk... The rocks have way nore surface area then a filter pad does imo.
> 
> You may be right though about my cycle stalling i too was wondering if the extremely high ammonia is actually having a negative effect on my cycle.. In essence killing or smothering the bacteria from growing... I wish i could research the effects of super high ammonia on a tanks biological filter... I guess what ill try to do is do 50% water changes everyday to keep the levels down and see if that helps the cycle.
> 
> One thing though i should note.. Im not a big fan of swapping filter media in other tanks... The reason being is transfering germs to that tabk.. Such as columnaris and stuff like that.. Or parasites and worms


Just want to point out that with the 9 tanks I currently am running I have instant cycled flawlessly with simply transferring filter media from my other tanks. I promise I religiously tested my water to be sure! not 1 single issue! and I have 3 20g and 2 10qt tanks that whenever needed I transfer media and thur it be..perfectly cycled. Don't knock it till you try it. It DOES work. However I have never had substrate help a cycle whatsoever.I even did the same for my daughters school Betta tanks


----------



## Boredomb

I have to say that transferring media from one tank to another has worked for me in cycling a tank from the start. I did that in a 5.5 gallon qt tank I used for 15 Rasboras. It worked from the beginning with 0,0,5 on my parameters. It stayed that way throughout the QT time of 5 weeks. So it can be done.


----------



## jaysee

candymancan said:


> The rocks have way nore surface area then a filter pad does imo.
> 
> You may be right though about my cycle stalling i too was wondering if the extremely high ammonia is actually having a negative effect on my cycle.. In essence killing or smothering the bacteria from growing... I wish i could research the effects of super high ammonia on a tanks biological filter... I guess what ill try to do is do 50% water changes everyday to keep the levels down and see if that helps the cycle.
> 
> One thing though i should note.. Im not a big fan of swapping filter media in other tanks... The reason being is transfering germs to that tabk.. Such as columnaris and stuff like that.. Or parasites and worms


Per unit of volume, media has way more surface area than rocks. Sand on the other hand, has a massive surface area per volume.

Surface area is only half of the filtration equation. Circulation is the other half. The bacteria can only feed if the food is reaching them, and with a high turnover rate from the filters, there will be a larger colony there because they are essentially being force fed. That's my experience - I have always run big filtration systems. About a dozen times I've swapped substrates (gravel to sand) where I have totally removed the old from the tank and they never even skipped a beat. Were the majority of the bacteria in the substrate, I would have definitely damaged the cycle and seen an impact.

The fish are way more sensitive to ammonia than the bacteria is, so if your fish are still alive, so is any bacteria in your system. If your fish are alive, then the ammonia is not inhibiting the bacterial growth.

Transferring filter media is THE preferred method of starting a new tank by virtually every serious fish keeper. It is totally safe as long as you don't have any active infections going on. Germs are EVERYWHERE!! Any germs you are concerned about transferring to the other tank are going to be in that tank whether you move the media or not. Parasites need a host to survive - if the fish in your current tank have parasites, then there is the chance that there may be some trapped in the media. If they aren't infected with parasites, then that's not going to be an issue. So?? Are your fish infested with parasites?


----------



## beaslbob

I predice that all the sudden (like in a couple of days)

ammonia will drop to 0

pH will rise (to over 7.5)

just a guess.


----------



## candymancan

Well as I said I tried transferring 2 filter pads from my 30g which uses a duel HOB for 50-75g and I put that into my 55g tanks duel HOB filter and it didn't instant cycle anything It probably shortend it a little as it was only cycling for 3-4 weeks... But It didn't work in my 5g either...

Nore is it working in my 27g.. I have 2 old filters in there from my 30g combined with the already one that was in prior to me removing my rocks and UGF a month ago... and whelp my ammonia is still here... In fact im gonna have to take the filters out here soon... They are putting mushy material in my water they are literally falling apart... but ill do what was suggested keep the mushy pads and just stuff them inside a new one, but before I do im gonna squeeze them and get all the crap off them and get it into my water so itll settle on the plants and rocks and hopefully that will help my cycle get going.

Im still confused to as how you people claim though that filters are what is keeping your ammonia down... You know that a lot of really really experienced users such as dustin on youtube for dustins fish tanks... don't even use filters ? His tanks are heavily stock with giant rainbow fish and he has plants just you and I do and he has no ammonia issues.. Sure you can say its the plants keeping the ammonia at bay, but my first hand experience shutting off a filter with no UGF (my 55g) causes only a small ammonia spike wghich goes away.. So im still a form believer that bacteria are in the rocks more so then filters.

That's why when I took my UGF out and all my rocks my ammonia is going crazy and stuffing my HOB with 3 different filters from other tanks hasn't done anything lol.. Can you guys explain that to me and keep telling me that most of the bacteria aren't in the rocks ? Like for example... you know those fancy filters from fluval that have those oval stones which are porous for bacteria to grow in ? What is the difference in using those vs gravel like say floramax or eco complete ? Which is basically lava rock... we all know lava rock is like crazy porous.. I bet you a million bucks the rocks in my tank have more surface area then any filter.. However you are right in that a filter moves the water over the pads and keep the BB fed.... But that's what a UGF does as well except it has the entire substrate as its "filter pad" .. And that's why im starting to think it was a mistake removing my UGF... I never had ammonia spikes when I shut the filters off or removed the pads for a clean one every few weeks... Im sure though you guys do am I right ? Like if you guys removed your pads and replaced them with a clean one... (not re-using the old pad or mixing with the old one) that your ammonia will go up am I right ? 

I dunno im not so sure why people don't like UGF's.. I am fairly new to plants and I only removed mine because I was told it was bad for them. Im wondering if I should have kept it in there


----------



## beaslbob

Candymancan:

The best idvice i get and receive is simply if it ain 't broke don't fix it. :shock:

plants will prevent ammonia spikes.

regradless of what ever else is going on.

Sounds like your tank just needs to adjust.

FWIW a person on several of these boards Paul_B has a reef tank that has been running for 40 years. Paul uses old school and many things that are poo-hooed by modern methods. One of which is the use of a reverse flow under gravel filter. Sure that is a marine tank. And sure Fw is different. But still UGFs have fallen out of favor today.

Paul just continues to have a successful tank anyway.


my .02


----------



## Agent13

Well if you do want plants they'll root into the UGF eventually decreasing its effectiveness unless you just do floaters. But you have some really pretty plants ( I have most of the same ones too) and I would hate to see you give that up. Actually the fluval filters are my fav on HOBs lol.. But I prefer my eheim canisters above all. However direction you choose to go the ammonia is already there ... So I'd pick the filter you want most and commit to the cycle roller coaster that you're already on. If you choose to stick with your HOB it can't hurt to grab some media out of your 55 if you enough media in there to spare. At your high ammonia levels though I wouldn't even expect that to make an instant cycle .. Just speed it up :-/


Sent from Petguide.com App


----------



## candymancan

Agent13 said:


> Well if you do want plants they'll root into the UGF eventually decreasing its effectiveness unless you just do floaters. But you have some really pretty plants ( I have most of the same ones too) and I would hate to see you give that up. Actually the fluval filters are my fav on HOBs lol.. But I prefer my eheim canisters above all. However direction you choose to go the ammonia is already there ... So I'd pick the filter you want most and commit to the cycle roller coaster that you're already on. If you choose to stick with your HOB it can't hurt to grab some media out of your 55 if you enough media in there to spare. At your high ammonia levels though I wouldn't even expect that to make an instant cycle .. Just speed it up :-/
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


 
Yea when I get some more money if I still have ammonia spikes if my cycle ever finishes that is lol.. Then I was thinking of buying some sort of close filters with those cylinder rocks in them to help gain MORE BB... The problem with a hexagon is I can only fit a HOB filter that has 1 filter pad.. Not a duel like you can rectangle filters.. I COULD mount another filter on another pane of glass but due to way I have my lights setup on the tank (3x24 inch T8 fixtures on the 20 inch wide tank) I cant fit but 1 HOB in the back and that's it. 

I would use the filters from the 55G, but that tank has planaria worms in it and my 27g doesn't... I would take more filters from the 30g.. but that tank is recovering from a columnaris outbreak that I just finished medicating and I have no seeded filter media in that tank atm as I just put new filters in yesterday.. 

But yea Im not gonna tear the tank up to put the UGF back in.. and I think the problem me using floramax rocks... they might be tiny enough to get through the filter and go on the bottom... Im not sure I'll scoop some out and test it... However like you said my plants look beautiful specially my neseae and my telethara and If I rip them up im sure itll cause them shock... Because they are at the point now where they are completetly settled in the tank growing exceptionally fast and growing lots of roots on the stems and so forth

Can you give me a name or link to a not so expensive filter that I could use that isn't a HOB ? You know like a canister filter.. I don't know much about them


----------



## jaysee

What you seem to be failing to understand is that there are MANY ways to keep fish - it's a continuum. Just like in golf when putting, there are a number of different lines one can take and get the ball in the hole - with the appropriate amount of power applied to the shot. You can have a slow roller that runs true to the slope, you can power the ball to the hole negating the slope, and everything inbetween. 
There are setups that don't need filters, and there are setups that require massive filtration systems, and everything inbetween. For the little itty bitty community fish that people often keep in their (usually lightly stocked) planted tanks, the importance of a filter is probably minimal at best. However, some people keep big fish, or like to heavily stock their tanks (heavy is relative). There's a reason those people believe in big filtration. If you run a setup where you don't feel you need a filter, then you should take advice from people who run those kinds of tanks. If you run a setup that requires heavy filtration, then you should take advice from people who are familiar with those types of setups. People run into trouble when they start cherry picking advice, following the parts they want and disregarding the parts they don't. This is almost always due to a failure to recognize the differences in fishkeeping styles and how they relate to their tank.


----------



## Agent13

Jaysee you totally lost me with the golf analogy 

Antywho....
Canisters. These are my all time fav ones.just expect to come back here with a post like "How the heck do you put this together?" The English instructions are essentially *Put together, plug in *and good luck! ** or at least thats how I read them. But they are awesome. you could get away with the 2213 on yours but maybe the 2215 or2217 would better suit your stocking...up to you.
(I'm mad, my first 2217 was about$100 more then on here !)
Eheim Classic Plus Canister Filters | thatpetplace.com

These are also all pretty good but you have to buy all your media and even the spray bar separately ..not cool! But I have the XP XL and after getting over the issue with buying the rest of it piecemeal it is actually really good. Size you choose is all you..
Rena FilStar XP-Series Canister Filters | thatpetplace.com

or just cruise the site and pic one o come back to see if anyone has experience with which one you want to see what they think of it.


----------



## jaysee

That's because you don't golf agent  point was that there are many means to the same end. Very, very few things in fishkeeping are absolute.


----------



## Agent13

jaysee said:


> That's because you don't golf agent  point was that there are many means to the same end. Very, very few things in fishkeeping are absolute.


I might be blonde but I got it lol.. Even without knowing golf.


----------



## Chesh

*Back on track, guys. . .*

I have taken the liberty of moving this thread into the Advanced Freshwater Discussion area of the forum. - it looks as if most of the members commenting here are 'old pros.' You experienced types do tend to fall into debate more often than not! >.<

CM, if you feel your _original question_ has been answered, and wish to seek additional input on _filtration_ and/or filter media, I suggest you start a new thread here in the Advanced Freshwater Discussions area. 

Please be nice, guys - we all have had our own experiences and opinions. Though they often seem not to agree. . . well. . .respect, neh? Lets be sure to keep things friendly.

So lets get back onto the topic of _THIS_ thread, shall we?


----------



## Chesh

candymancan said:


> The problem is I have had 4-8PPM of ammonia in the tank for 4 going on 5 weeks now.. I haven't had a single fish die, nor any fish gasping for air or struggling or red gills and the reason why is because I put a capful of prime in the tank every 24 hours... But its getting expensive... I have gone through an entire 500ml bottle.. and I cant afford this... But then I cant afford replacing my fish either..


 _*Please see post #1 for additional details*_




The first responder, Boredomb, suggested upping the water changes - and I agree with this. I'm not sure if you ever responded with your water change routine, except to state that you don’t vac, but if you are not doing frequent water changes on this tank, I think you may want to start.

I'm really not the best person to try to explain this, and a newbie tanker at that(!), but I’ll try. . . please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong - I'm terrible at chemistry!

To the best of my understanding, and based ONLY on what I have read. . .

The bacteria in our tanks, I think(?), uses carbon as fuel source, so you will find that the KH (carbonate hardness) in a cycling tank can drop rather quickly. This is especially true in situations where the water is soft, and has a low KH to begin with. A low KH will allow the pH to shift far more easily. Combined with that, as the bacteria converts ammonia into nitrItes, hydrogen ions are released. These hydrogen ions have a direct effect in lowering the pH in the tank, and if the KH is low enough to allow it, the change in pH can be fairly rapid. When the pH drops _too_ low, the bacteria goes dormant, and stops working, thus stalling the cycle.

This *USUALLY* applies to stalled cycles in which people are using bottled ammonia to cycle their tanks (we don't typically see ammonia levels this high otherwise), and why the usual recommendation for fishless cycling using ammonia is put somewhere between 2-4ppm. You stated in your OP that your ammonia levels are between 4-8PPM.

You have a fish-in cycle right now on a tank that is heavily stocked. I'm not positive about this, but my theory is that since the ammonia levels have started out so high to begin with - the bacterial colony needed to start the cycle may not have been able to form - thus stalling your cycle before it even began, essentially. When was the last time you checked the water hardness levels in your tank? Are you seeing any flux?

The happy side of this is that if your pH is too low, toxic ammonia is converted into ammonium, which doesn't harm the fish. My understanding is that Prime does the same thing - either way, it explains why your fish are okay - but have no idea what the long-term effects would be if this situation is allowed to continue. . .

So, again I recommend that you go back to the basics - water changes. You'll want to do these slowly, and test as you go - rapid flux in pH will hurt your fish (I think we all agree on that one?) I'd recommend several smaller water changes a day (using Prime) to get and keep the ammonia level down below the 3ppm mark, which I *think* should allow your cycle to progress. 

It's going to be a lot of work, and I'm honestly not sure what will happen next. If the ammonia created by the bioload fish is high enough to keep the levels of ammonia this high. . . ?! That is why I initially recommended splitting the inhabitants of this tank with one of your others, or a new one, and slowly adding them back once the cycle is established, and conditions safe. I have no way of knowing how much of this ammonia is the 'normal' amount for your animals, and I also am unsure of the *exact* level needed to stall the cycle. As your tank had previously been running okay, I suspect that once this cycle is established, you *should* be okay, though will always have to battle high nitrAtes. . . just my theory.

Again, I'm TERRIBLE with chemistry, my understanding is shaky, at best. . . So please do your own research into this, and feel free to correct and/or clarify if I'm wrong. . . I'm pretty sure I just confused myself with that explanation! 

Best of luck getting out of this tricky situation!


*runs back to the beginner section where she belongs and hides*


----------



## Agent13

*The importance of telling us the whole story*

Candyman 
I really tried to help you and gave fantastic advice and did my best to stay on track no matter how much blame you wanted to throw on your filter, old methods vs new and wherever else you were loosely flinging blame . However here is where _*nobody*_ can really help you when you give us only half the story. 
You have done MAJOR tinkering with this tank since September and also have been battling sick fish in there for a while you yourself realized and I quote you here about a barb in that tank "From what I gathered online it is most likely Hemorrhagic septicemia so I decided to get some API Tripple Sulfa and some aquarium salt and see if that works". Then after this you say this fish looked like it was having internal bleeding for a year:shock:. You dumped salt and meds in there killing you cycle instead of QTing the fish. I'll note you still had you're fabulous UGF at that time. 
You medicated and salted your tank around~9/21/13
Removed your substrate and UGF around ~9/28/13
Then added a Your home made Co2 system ~10/1/13

All of this could have seriously shortened the process of helping you if we knew this. Our advice is only as good as the accuracy of the information we are given. You have created havoc on your tank and you can't go comparing UGFs to HOBs based on your experience since the Ammonia no doubt is from killing you're cycle with your rash whole tank treatment.. and really unadvisable to medicate your whole tank, salt your tank, Change your whole setup(new substrate and removing a filter) and add a Co2 reactor system(homemade or not) within 1 week.


----------



## Flear

maybe i started skimming over things, i didn't see any heated debate, just different ideas

i've got a relatively small 29 gallon tank, an HOB filter, (only foam blocks, replaced everything else) just for surface area, i could possibly want to use rock wool which would have even higher surface area. other then that, the foam block on the front (prevents fish from getting trapped) is the only real mechanical filter (only place that accumulates crud). the only gain substrate has on better/greater bacteria for processing the nitrogen cycle is surface area, ... as has been mentioned, if your using gravel, depending on your filter system it may have a higher surface area (and in turn more bacterial culture) if your using sand, then the substrate will always have a higher surface area), if it's not cleaned, even higher surface area in your substrate, ... but the good bacteria isn't only in the substrate, it's on every surface in the aquarium.

i've heard mention that some of this beneficial bacteria for the nitrogen cycle does it's job in the dark, so that's something else to look into, ... inside most filter systems it's dark, so this isn't going to impact most filter systems, it's also only something i've heard once, so it's only a curiosity at the moment and not something i have to rethink my tank around

heavily planted, the substrate is bound with roots i'd rather not disturb, detritus & mulm have saturated the substrate, i have NEVER cleaned it. i don't prune the plants till they are surfacing.

last water change was months ago.

---

my tank goes against common practices in the hobby. and it's successful.

everyone's tanks are different, ... and for the most part, everyone experiences success to one degree or another, so what works, ... well what works is more than we think, and far more than we practice.

personally, if your getting readings 4-8, and your fish are healthy, your readings are wrong, time for a different test kit, and/or different lighting ... or ditch the test kit all-together, your fish are healthy, who cares what the test kit says, ... if your fish are not healthy, pull out the test kit, ... but an accurate one so you can figure things out and work on a solution.


----------



## jaysee

Agent13 said:


> Candyman
> I really tried to help you and gave fantastic advice and did my best to stay on track no matter how much blame you wanted to throw on your filter, old methods vs new and wherever else you were loosely flinging blame . However here is where _*nobody*_ can really help you when you give us only half the story.
> You have done MAJOR tinkering with this tank since September and also have been battling sick fish in there for a while you yourself realized and I quote you here about a barb in that tank "From what I gathered online it is most likely Hemorrhagic septicemia so I decided to get some API Tripple Sulfa and some aquarium salt and see if that works". Then after this you say this fish looked like it was having internal bleeding for a year:shock:. You dumped salt and meds in there killing you cycle instead of QTing the fish. I'll note you still had you're fabulous UGF at that time.
> You medicated and salted your tank around~9/21/13
> Removed your substrate and UGF around ~9/28/13
> Then added a Your home made Co2 system ~10/1/13
> 
> All of this could have seriously shortened the process of helping you if we knew this. Our advice is only as good as the accuracy of the information we are given. You have created havoc on your tank and you can't go comparing UGFs to HOBs based on your experience since the Ammonia no doubt is from killing you're cycle with your rash whole tank treatment.. and really unadvisable to medicate your whole tank, salt your tank, Change your whole setup(new substrate and removing a filter) and add a Co2 reactor system(homemade or not) within 1 week.


Yes, this is pretty common - people omit what are often the most important details because they don't understand why they are important.

Too, I'd like to point out that since you've just recently gotten your 55 gallon under control, its likely to not be suitable for transferring media just yet.


----------



## candymancan

Just a little update.. FINALLY my ammonia is going down and my nitrites are showing now.

I checked the water today and ammonia is now at 2ppm, and my nitrites are .50 to 1.0ppm. Man this only took 5 weeks !!! Hopefully the nitrite cycle doesn't take long to go away.. Geesh what a pain this transition has been..


----------



## Chesh

Glad things are looking up over there - fingers crossed that this trend continues!


----------



## beaslbob

candymancan said:


> Just a little update.. FINALLY my ammonia is going down and my nitrites are showing now.
> 
> I checked the water today and ammonia is now at 2ppm, and my nitrites are .50 to 1.0ppm. Man this only took 5 weeks !!! Hopefully the nitrite cycle doesn't take long to go away.. Geesh what a pain this transition has been..


Glad to hear. don't add food until nitrItes drop down. then can peg the kit for a day or so.

my .02


----------



## jaysee

I do agree - feeding only makes maintaining the water quality that much more difficult so feed sparingly or even not at all.


----------



## candymancan

Nitrites are now 5PPM (probly higher) and ammonia is still 2ppm... Getting ready to change half the water...


----------



## beaslbob

candymancan said:


> Nitrites are now 5PPM (probly higher) and ammonia is still 2ppm... Getting ready to change half the water...


Yep you pegged the API test kit.

Don't add food untill they drop down. Which should be a few days or so.


(no need for water change, nitrItes will drop down without)

my .02


----------



## candymancan

Nitrites are more toxic then ammonia. Im using prime but id like to keep them down trying to do this with no fish dying and so none have..

What do you mean i pegged the test kit ?

Ammonia is now 1ppm. Going down.. But pretty slowely.. I just found my watersprite was dead i suspected it was but it was green sorta.. Jist took it out and the roots were rottin and stems brittle.. I bet that wasnt helping lol


----------



## beaslbob

candymancan said:


> Nitrites are more toxic then ammonia. Im using prime but id like to keep them down trying to do this with no fish dying and so none have..
> 
> What do you mean i pegged the test kit ?


As I remember the api test kit (and others) had a max reading of 5ppm. But that was some time ago.


> Ammonia is now 1ppm. Going down.. But pretty slowely.. I just found my watersprite was dead i suspected it was but it was green sorta.. Jist took it out and the roots were rottin and stems brittle.. I bet that wasnt helping lol


 some plants will doe off IME. that is the reason I use a mix of fast and slow growing plants.

my .02


----------



## candymancan

Yea i have big mix of plants.. I mentioned em in other posts in the thread...

Telenthara cardinalis.. Wisteria. Water sprite.. Red neseae. Amazon sword. broad leafed anubias... my neseae and telanthara are 4x the size when i got them.. neseae is like orange on all new growth bushy and like 14-15 inches tall.. im suprised the watersprite died.. its aneasy plant to take care off... like in this tank it doed but my harder ones are explpding... yet in my other tanks.. my watersprite is exploding and my neseae isnt doing that great lol.. ah well im not worried bout it


----------



## candymancan

well cycle is done nitrites only lasted for 2 days they were 5ppm yesterday now 0 today.. nitrates are at 40 or so PPM.. so im gonna do a water change now and maybe clean the gravel a bit..


----------



## beaslbob

candymancan said:


> well cycle is done nitrites only lasted for 2 days they were 5ppm yesterday now 0 today.. nitrates are at 40 or so PPM.. so im gonna do a water change now and maybe clean the gravel a bit..


 
Just be careful this time. :lol:


----------



## candymancan

carefull with what what are you talking about ?


----------



## beaslbob

candymancan said:


> carefull with what what are you talking about ?


 
removing the ugf would be a very large stirring up the substrate. just clean off the top layer crud. don't stir thing up much.

my .02


----------



## Flear

wouldn't it be easier to relocate the fish, remove the UGF, wait for things to settle, then clean the substrate & put the fish back ?


----------



## Agent13

beaslbob said:


> removing the ugf would be a very large stirring up the substrate. just clean off the top layer crud. don't stir thing up much.
> 
> my .02


UGF was removed .. read the thread. It was removed prior to this thread.
While Candyman glossed over and left out important details you are missing both the title and the whole thread.


----------



## beaslbob

Agent13 said:


> UGF was removed .. read the thread. It was removed prior to this thread.
> While Candyman glossed over and left out important details you are missing both the title and the whole thread.


 
My apologies for anyone who is upset.

I understand the UGF was removed and resulted in this thread documenting a very long cycle.

In that process things got stirred up and shocked. Which caused the long cycle.

My concern was simply to not "stirr up" the substrate in the cleaning process. As that may also result in another cycle even if hopefully much shorter duration.

Hence my recommendation to just clean up the detris in the top of the substrate. And to not move the actual substrate around.

But that's just my experience

which as usual is worth at most .02


----------

