# Any real need for canister/hang on back filter



## twocents (Feb 22, 2010)

I am beginning to think fancy canister or hang on back filters are not that necessary. A good air-driven foam filter in the tank is the only thing really necessary. 
I already have a set up in place with a power canister filter: all I have is mechanical filtering media. When I test the water, everything is 0, save for nitrates which hover around the '10' mark. This is the reading, both from the tank and the tap water. 
I am trying to cut back on electrical usage and an intank air driven foam filter would eliminate the Renas.
Anyone else do this? 
Thanks.


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## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

twocents said:


> I am beginning to think fancy canister or hang on back filters are not that necessary. A good air-driven foam filter in the tank is the only thing really necessary.
> I already have a set up in place with a power canister filter: all I have is mechanical filtering media. When I test the water, everything is 0, save for nitrates which hover around the '10' mark. This is the reading, both from the tank and the tap water.
> I am trying to cut back on electrical usage and an intank air driven foam filter would eliminate the Renas.
> Anyone else do this?
> Thanks.


That's quite true for many small tanks... Anything under a 25 or so is fine with a simple sponge filter. Any larger and you might want to have more than one, or a canister.

Plants (if any) also help with the filtration.


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## DKRST (Jan 11, 2011)

If a tank is not overloaded or overfed, a "natural" tank works, just need a little water circulation. Biological filters allow a lot of "oops" room for heavy fish stocking and for folks, like me, who tend to overfeed on occasion. Mechanicals are nice for taking out the visual yuck. Canisters are a nice combo of both, but you are accurate. They and HOBs are not really requirements for a successful FW tank.


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## twocents (Feb 22, 2010)

Thanks.
The largest tank in question is a 56 gallon column. I am going to be using 2 5" square foam filters in it.


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## bernynhel (Aug 10, 2011)

twocents said:


> I am beginning to think fancy canister or hang on back filters are not that necessary. A good air-driven foam filter in the tank is the only thing really necessary.
> I already have a set up in place with a power canister filter: all I have is mechanical filtering media. When I test the water, everything is 0, save for nitrates which hover around the '10' mark. This is the reading, both from the tank and the tap water.
> I am trying to cut back on electrical usage and an intank air driven foam filter would eliminate the Renas.
> Anyone else do this?
> Thanks.


Idk. My aquarium from Wal-Mart came with a power filter - a Whisper 10-30i internal filter by Tetra - is that fancy? It hangs on the back but was included with the 20 gal tank along with the hood, light housing and 2 lights for about $70. It requires filter cartridges with change out every month or so and the cartridges cost 3/$6.98 - doesn't seem too exorbitant. Of course I've only been in the hobby for about 1 day or so but that doesn't mean that I don't know that activated carbon can do things that foam cannot. Now whether or not those "things" are relevant to the discussion, idk. But I digress, I'm here about sunken ships and other, critical, glow-in-the-dark decor!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

One must remember that filtration serves more than one function, and these vary considerably according to the tank's biology and the type of fish. Other members have wisely mentioned plants and fish stocking, and they are also part of the equation.

Filtration occurs as mechanical, biological and chemical. Mechanical is moving the water through media (esp floss, pads, sponge, foam) to remove suspended particulate matter. Although it is possible to have planted tanks without mechanical filtration, it is beneficial for most tanks and it also helps circulate the water. 

Biological involves encouraging nitrifying bacteria colonization in the filter media. While here too it is not essential, it is advisable (a) if there are no live plants, and (b) if the fish stocking is anything above what the tank can easily handle naturally. Most of us put more fish in a tank than what may be termed "moderate."

Chemical involves adjusting the water chemistry somehow, often with activated carbon and other substances that will remove toxins (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, metals, etc). This again is not necessary in planted tanks or those with moderate fish stocking that balances the tank's biological system.

A sponge filter will easily achieve mechanical and some biological. Provided the fish stocking is moderate, this is fine. And with live plants, even better.

Another important aspect of filters is the water movement. Some fish need more current than others, and this must be provided or that species will not be healthy. This is another important aspect of selecting "compatible" fish for an aquarium. Compatibility includes similar requirements respecting water flow, temperature, parameters, environment...in addition to behaviours.

Byron.


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## twocents (Feb 22, 2010)

Thanks for all the replies. 

I have not used carbon in my filters for a long long time. I do not even use the little stars/noodles either. My water parameters remain the same. am= 0, nitrites = 0. The only reading is from the nitrates which remains at 10, which is also 'straight from the tap'. Tap water is 10 nitrate. (API master test kit).

I switched to the foam for a couple of reasons, although I will do what is best for the fish. Mainly to save electricity and to remove the electric load off of the circuit; I do think it was stressed. 

I installed the filters Wednesday Aug 10. After almost 5 days, the water is almost as clear as it was when the canisters were running. I did get a little bit of milky cloudiness on the second day (Aug 12) but it cleared up shortly. This would occur occasionally with the canister filters so I don't think it is of any real consequence. 

All the fish are well. I am going to continue to post with my observations.


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## twocents (Feb 22, 2010)

Update: Aug 17, 2011. I woke up this morning and my male rainbow bosmani was stuck between the filter and the side of the 55 gallon tank. Dead... bummer. I guess he squeezed in there and panicked. I also realized that by being that close to the corner, the amt of filter space is reduced. I moved the filter away from the corner: I moved all of them away from the glass and turned them slightly so they were more of an angle. 
I had to shift some plants and ornaments. Stirred up a bit of crap, but the water cleared out in about an hour. 
Other than the rainbow (it was my prettiest rainbow of course...) all is well.


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## twocents (Feb 22, 2010)

Update: Sept 20, 2011.
checked my water chemsitry in the big tank (56 gallon column). 
I do not think this is any failing of the foam filter, I have been very remiss in checking my parameters. 
The ammonia was slightly elevated, (only one 'step' higher on the liquid test), 0 nitrites, nitrates were @ 40. This was saturday, the day I do a water change, so I did a 50% on all the tanks. 
Mea Culpa, but there are too many fish in the 56 gallon and I may well do 2 water changes a week.
total number of fish? 20 or less. 
It is heavily planted. I need to come up with some sort of 'crevice' tool for the siphon gravel cleaner to get between the roots and stuff. 
The water clarity is excellent.


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## k19smith (Aug 19, 2011)

Very interesting observations in the past year I have gone to only sponges filters in most of my tanks.


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

I also am only running sponge filters in my tanks. In most of my tanks other than one of my 20 gallons I am using sponge filters rated for larger tanks. In my 50 gallon tank I have 2 sponge filters that I am running, one in each back corner. With both sponge filters on this tank it's total rating would be 100 gal. I also have live plants in this tank which helps with filtration. The interesting thing that I found was when I took the HOB off of this tank and went strictly to two sponge filters my nitrate levels dropped. They had been running around 20, and now are no higher than 10ppm.


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## twocents (Feb 22, 2010)

Wish I could say that about the water chemistry. This is only on the big tank, but I generally don't check the others as they usually follow suit. The nitrates run about 10 or so straight from the tap. I think I'm going to bump up water changes to twice a week. No more fishies, let them pass and not replace. I have to say overall, the foam filters are working fairly well. Anyone have any suggestions on how often to squeeze them out? Once a month? Twice? I'm sure it will be dependent on the amount of fish.

I primarily did this little 'blog' like posting just to keep track of the differences between the canisters and the foam filters. I am not going back to the canisters, at least not yet. 

I would like to invest in that aquarium vacuum machine, but most likely will not be available until next year.


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## k19smith (Aug 19, 2011)

I had been letting my sponges go 1-2 months kinda being lazy I guess. I'm now cleaning all of my sponges once a week when I do my water changes in the tank water, I did not realize how dirty they were getting and I see that they work much better with the weekly squeezing. 

I'd be very happy if I could get my nitrates to 10, even with twice weekly water changes and not over stocked I'm no where near that. I think my fishes have adapted and I've not had any problems introducing new fish so I've given up trying to get my nitrates down. If my test kit is right I'm running somewhere between 40-60ppm always on 7 tanks. I've recently started planting my aquariums to see what that does.


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## twocents (Feb 22, 2010)

Keep me posted, as I will keep posting, for a while anyway. Squeezing the filters once a week probably would not do any harm. Possibly, not doing it often enough might contribute to high nitrates. I will try that scenario.


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## twocents (Feb 22, 2010)

i looked at the date and my goodness, it has been almost a year since I posted on this subject. So much for being 'vigilent'. 
I have to say I am quite satisfied with the ability of the sponge filters to keep things clean. Enables me to run the noisy air pump remotely (so I don't have to listen to it). I squeeze the filters out once a month. Aside from the occasional fish death (some old age, the 3 angels, I really don't know why.. I haven't tested the water in a long time as well.)
I have to say that if one lives within the parameters of a tank, not over stocking. some live plants, the foam filters are cheaper, quieter, and easier to live with.


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## equatics (Apr 26, 2012)

Hi. If you don't mind, I thought this would be a good thread to say something about what i'm doing to my poor AquaClear 30 filter. If you do mind just scroll on past 

I am transitioning my filter to a mechanical-only filter. This is hard to do because any mechanical filtration I've heard of is also home to bacteria, nitrifying and otherwise. This is all happening outside the tank, away from the gravel and plants, with the water flow dumping bacterial products right into the tank.

I'm taking a few weeks transitioning out the bio-media, then washing 1/2 the sponge with tap, and Saturday will be all of the sponge. The bio-media is gone, and the sponge will be washed in tap once a week when I do all of my fish stuff.

A fish tank star said that the bacteria will just set up shop somewhere else, and I hope they do just that, on the gravel or on the plants... Oh, sorry I didn't mention, my 10 gal. tank is planted. I've been kind of struggling with the plants lately but they're looking better and I don't think there will be a problem with them. I'm even hoping that the non-bio filter will put a little more ammonia on the plants' plate faster. Another hope I have is that my tank will again go nitrateless, which are the end result of the bacterial Nitrogen cycle. Plants love to assimilate ammonia and it's good for them and less of it floating around is good for the tank too. Anyway, I grow verbose. Please reply if you have any thoughts or comments.


That's it.


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## LADY K (Jul 28, 2012)

twocents i was reading some old posts where you were going to get a diatom filter,did you get one & how did it work?


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## Thunderloon (Feb 6, 2011)

*adding to the fire I guess.*

I've found that the best combo seems to be to use both a canister AND a power filter AND a sponge filter.

I've got a 29 gallon over-stocked tetra tank in which I keep all my little neon and neon-like fish as well as pristellas and some varieties of bloodfin. Its got fifty some fish in it and thus needs a little more than a HOB in terms of biology per gallon flow so I splurged on an EFU-45 JBJ unit. They are noisy like a standpipe but do a great job.

I use a one liter intake pre-filter sponge on the EFU then rout its output up into the impeller of an Emperor 280. This lets me put the carbon/purigen/hypersorb/etc and final 50 micron filtration in the HOB and never have to handle the insides of my canister.

Its a lot of filtration capacity for a tank that's also planted, but it works great and is very predictable.
The bottom is one box laterite and a 24lbs bag of fluorite sand capped with black volcanic sand.
Makes a very happy tank and a very easy maintenance plan.

So that's my sponge filter, canister filter and HOB arrangement. I really advise it for its ease of use and general reliability. Its like an enormous version of the rear-wall filtration you find in bio-cubes with the added benefit of what each system brings to the table. If I ran a bigger tank with more fish I'd likely add the HOT 250 on the front end instead of the pre-filter sponge, but I really don't like having tanks I can't move on my own.

I could probably get away with a Fluval 106 and a Penguin 150 return... :lol: but I like the beefy equipment. Never loose a fish to weak hardware.

I guess in the end the whole filtration question comes down to "what won't kill my fish, what will let me sleep at night, what is too much?"

A good one liter sponge is equivalent the entire under gravel system of a properly maintained 55g with under gravel... except easier to maintain and it doesn't bother plants.

About 1200ml of soft fired clay type media in a canister, or 2 liters of hard fired ceramic media does the same job but can take longer to establish. This because the sponge can grow cycle bacteria directly on the caught waste and canister media is designed for flow-pass. The difference between the soft and hard media is that the bacteria can sustain themselves on the calcium from the soft media.

Hard plastic media like bio-balls and pin-balls as well as cheato and other surfaces like the blue thing in Aqueon filters do work, but the ratio on them is so poor as to be pointless. I can replace two cubic yards of the best bio-balls with four liters of Hagen bio-max and a good protein skimmer.

By far your best fresh water option is plants.


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

It's interesting 'speak' of how a sponge filter may be better than a HOB. I suggest that not all HOB's are created equally. A cartridge type HOB does have limitations.

As food for thought, my AquaClear 70 HOB is filled with sponge material so we'd have to call it a HOB-sponge filter.


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## twocents (Feb 22, 2010)

LADY K said:


> twocents i was reading some old posts where you were going to get a diatom filter,did you get one & how did it work?


 
sorry this reply is late: I haven't been to the forum in a while.
I do have the diatom filter: use it for water polishing. 
Only drawback is once it accumalates detritus it almost has to be run each day in order to keep the water(in the filter) from going nasty. Does not seem to harm the fish, just smells. It does a very good job in clearing the water. 

thanks.


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## twocents (Feb 22, 2010)

To Nemo: no, I do not mind your addition. Again, I've been remiss in checking this forum out. 
Thunderloon: almost sounds like filter overkill. 
I was looking to eliminate a good portion of electric, but then I've probably gone up again as I have two led light fixtures on the tanks. 
I am remiss in testing the water: nitrates are the only item I have a problem with. 
If I ever get a single very very large tank, I may well invest in an Aquaripure.


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## Thunderloon (Feb 6, 2011)

AbbeysDad said:


> It's interesting 'speak' of how a sponge filter may be better than a HOB. I suggest that not all HOB's are created equally. A cartridge type HOB does have limitations.
> 
> As food for thought, my AquaClear 70 HOB is filled with sponge material so we'd have to call it a HOB-sponge filter.


I pref. to think of the AC's as "open canister HOBs" because of their vertical pass flow, their actual flow rate per square inch is too high to qualify as canisters tho. An AC70 with the pump from a 20 would be more canister-like.

For quite a while it was common practice to simply fill canister filters with high density sponges, foam out-performed all the media available for quite a long time and was much cheaper and easier to maintain.
I remember seeing an early mod for a C220 which replaced the baskets with a piece of pipe and just used one enormous sponge stuck down in with the pipe thrust down through it to the gap at the bottom.


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

Thunderloon said:


> I pref. to think of the AC's as "open canister HOBs" because of their vertical pass flow, their actual flow rate per square inch is too high to qualify as canisters tho. An AC70 with the pump from a 20 would be more canister-like.


With a max flow rate of 300gph, the AC70 is on par with most canisters rated for the same size aquarium. I have mine modified and throttled down (max re-filtration/min outflow) to less than 100gph and with very fine media, <=50gph flow through. This would be <= the max flow rate for the AC20.



Thunderloon said:


> For quite a while it was common practice to simply fill canister filters with high density sponges, foam out-performed all the media available for quite a long time and was much cheaper and easier to maintain.
> I remember seeing an early mod for a C220 which replaced the baskets with a piece of pipe and just used one enormous sponge stuck down in with the pipe thrust down through it to the gap at the bottom.


I tend to agree. For all the hype of ceramic and other bio-media materials, open cell foam continues to be excellent at mechanical filtration as well as an excellent platform for beneficial biology. The Aquaripure bio-de-nitrate filter, as example, is all foam with 4 different density (coarse to fine) foams.
Now having 'said' this, there may be some room to entertain that ceramics and similar medias (e.g. Matrix/De*Nitrate) may emulate live rock in that they could support anaerobic de-nitrate bacteria where open cell foam most likely would not.


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## twocents (Feb 22, 2010)

I have some figures from an api liquid test kit.

No ammonia.
Ph: 7.8 
did not test for nitrite: I don't think there are any
Nitrate: 10. It is usually 10 from the tap.
As far as I can tell, same figures from when I ran the canisters. Matter of fact, I think they are better.
I need to check the the water from the barrel, since I think the Ph is a little high. Need to know what the ph is from the tap.


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