# New Tropical fish tank setup and keeper - quick questions please.



## myk3 (Jun 21, 2010)

Hi all,

On the weekend I purchased a aquastart 340 pro tank (40L). I have followed all instructions to the button and it is setup fine. I am in the process of leaving the tank running for a week before introducing the fish. this is my first fish tank and I am going to keep tropical fresh water fish. I just have a few questions.

1. The heater that was supplied with the kit at the shop is a 25w heater. Reading the instructions on the manual which came with the tank recommended a 50w heater. When i get time i will exchange this at the shop. Do i need a heater in and on over the next 7 days while the tank "establishes"? if is the heater only needed to keep the water to 25* for the fish to live healthily?

2. Does the light need to be on for the 7 day period to help establish the good bacteria etc?

Thanks,

Myk3


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## JohnnyD44 (Dec 5, 2008)

Hello, myk3, and welcome to TFK!!!!

I just wanna touch base on something before we jump into your questions. Have you read up on the nitrogen cycle for a fish tank? As you stated, you tank will need to "established" before you can add anyfish. A "cycle" can take anywhere from 4-8 weeks. It's basic definition is that your tank needs to build up enough "beneficial bacteria" to convert toxins in your tank to less harmful substances. Toxins(ammonia) in your tank can come from mulitple sources, mostly excess food and fish waste. When you cycle your tank, you'll build up a colony of beneficial bacteria to convert the ammonia to ammonium(a far far less toxic version of ammonia). If you haven't done any reading on that, check out our thread on it :
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...inners-guide-freshwater-aquarium-cycle-38617/

On to your questions:
I would throw the heater in and just get it going now, this way you won't be throwing your fish into cold water, as it could take 1/2 a day to heat the tank water throughout. 

The lighting issue, i've personally never heard one way or another if having a light on matters during a cycle. So someone else may need to touch on that one for you...

Since it's your first fish tank, here are some other crucial items you'll need for weekly maintenance:
- API Master Liquid Test Kit (this will be an absolute neccessity during your cyle)
- Siphon for water changes
- a couple of 5 gallon buckets
- Fish net
- A timer for your lights (fish, just like humans need to sleep also, they like the hours of light and hours of day)
- A good water conditioner (such as PRIME, or Aqumel +) 


I'm sure there's other stuff you'll come across.

again, Welcome!

Johnny


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## konstargirl (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi and welcome to the forum.

For the light, I would turn it off if you were going to do a fishless cycle. I don't know about a fish in cycle, but if you going to do a fish in cycle( Like what I done when I first cycle my 10 gallon), I would add a few hardy fish like platies, but make sure you get 1. From my experience of a fish in cycle, it turned out sucessfull.

Many people here reconmend doing a fishless cycle. You can read about it by the link that *JohnnyD44* gave you.


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## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

Apart from the reason for putting the heater in the tank now that Johnny mentioned (i.e. getting the tank nice and warm for when the fish come) a heated tank will also cycle faster than an unheated one as the bacteria will reproduce faster in warmer water.


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## myk3 (Jun 21, 2010)

JohnnyD44 said:


> Hello, myk3, and welcome to TFK!!!!
> 
> I just wanna touch base on something before we jump into your questions. Have you read up on the nitrogen cycle for a fish tank? As you stated, you tank will need to "established" before you can add anyfish. A "cycle" can take anywhere from 4-8 weeks. It's basic definition is that your tank needs to build up enough "beneficial bacteria" to convert toxins in your tank to less harmful substances. Toxins(ammonia) in your tank can come from mulitple sources, mostly excess food and fish waste. When you cycle your tank, you'll build up a colony of beneficial bacteria to convert the ammonia to ammonium(a far far less toxic version of ammonia). If you haven't done any reading on that, check out our thread on it :
> http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...inners-guide-freshwater-aquarium-cycle-38617/
> ...


hey thanks so much for both of your comments.

just to update you on my situation. I got the 55Wat heater and installed it next to the pump outlet and have also attached a thermometer the opposite side of the tank. This is at a steady reading of 25* which is good.

I have also purchased a fish net, gravel cleaner and a cleaning pad for the glass sides.

The fishery which we purchased all the equipment gave is a guide to follow and we have followed this to the button. They have advised that we let the tank cycle fishless for 1 week then introduce some hardy fish.

They have not advised any of the 5 cycle methods with shrimps, fish and plants etc. It is just water and the de-chlorinator running in the tank for 1 week. Is this ok?

Also another slight off topic question... what are the noodles in the pump and filter section?

Best,

mike


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## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

Without an ammonia source in the tank, there aren't going to be any of the beneficial bacteria growing which will process your fishes' waste. I honestly don't know why* fish stores recommend letting a tank run for some arbitrary short period of time (I've heard anywhere from 24 hours to the week you mentioned) without any ammonia source. The reason that they suggest getting "hardy" fish is that these fish are better able to survive the aquarium cycle, which won't actually begin until they're added as it's those fish themselves that will serve as the ammonia source. As I mentioned in the article Johnny linked to, cycling fishless is generally a much better idea for a number of reasons:

1) It's more humane, as you don't have to subject any fish to toxic levels of ammonia.
2) It's easier, since you don't have to constantly monitor the water parameters and do frequent large water changes to keep ammonia and nitrite levels down in order to keep your fish alive.
3) It allows you more freedom in your stocking list, as you aren't forced to either keep the "hardy" cycling fish or remove them from the tank and find something to do with them.

*Actually, I do know why: for one thing, customers don't want to buy a fish tank and then have to read about some sort of chemistry they don't care about, and furthermore they don't want to hear that it will be a month or two before they're able to keep fish in the expensive tank they just purchased. Keeping customers happy is important. However, beyond that, if you do have problems once the tank starts cycling and your fish start dying, they can sell you all sorts of stuff to fix your problem! Ammonia removers, nitrite detoxifiers, cycling bacteria in a bottle, fish to replace those that have died from ammonia poisoning, larger tanks, bigger filters...you get the picture.

The noodles you're describing are most likely some sort of biological filter media, which is meant to provide a lot of surface area through a high-flow area, designed to be an ideal environment for those beneficial bacteria cultivated during the aquarium cycle to colonize.


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## myk3 (Jun 21, 2010)

iamntbatman said:


> Without an ammonia source in the tank, there aren't going to be any of the beneficial bacteria growing which will process your fishes' waste. I honestly don't know why* fish stores recommend letting a tank run for some arbitrary short period of time (I've heard anywhere from 24 hours to the week you mentioned) without any ammonia source. The reason that they suggest getting "hardy" fish is that these fish are better able to survive the aquarium cycle, which won't actually begin until they're added as it's those fish themselves that will serve as the ammonia source. As I mentioned in the article Johnny linked to, cycling fishless is generally a much better idea for a number of reasons:
> 
> 1) It's more humane, as you don't have to subject any fish to toxic levels of ammonia.
> 2) It's easier, since you don't have to constantly monitor the water parameters and do frequent large water changes to keep ammonia and nitrite levels down in order to keep your fish alive.
> ...


 
thanks for this,

if I go ahead and use the fish food method can i let this run for the next 5 days before adding the fish to build the good bacteria levels rather than have a running tank with no fish, food or plants etc?

we are hoping to put some hardy fish in on Sunday.

thanks,

mike


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Takes considerably longer than five days for bacteria to develop to a degree that you could put more than three or four small active fish such as guppies or perhaps pristella tetras in the 40 Litre tank. 
Even with these three or four (no more) small fish,careful feedings,, perhaps a tiny pinch every other day,and careful testing of water with test kit will be needed to ensure that the fish don't die from toxins(ammonia).
Adding too many fish,too large of fish,or overfeeding the fish, will result in very good probability that fishes will not survive.
Best to use the fish food method that was described at the site recommended above and use the time that it takes for bacteria to develop naturally ,to research the fish that interest you to see that they share similar requirements with respect to pH ,temp, and compatability with others you have selected.
nothing I can think of is more frustrating than finding ones self with a cycling tank full of sick fish. 
This requires medications that slow down the cycling process ,or kill the bacteria outright and one must also perform many water changes to keep ammonia levels in check which in turn means after each water change,more medication must be added in efforts to save the possibly sick fish.
Patience during the cycling process is it's own reward.;-)


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## myk3 (Jun 21, 2010)

1077 said:


> Takes considerably longer than five days for bacteria to develop to a degree that you could put more than three or four small active fish such as guppies or perhaps pristella tetras in the 40 Litre tank.
> Even with these three or four (no more) small fish,careful feedings,, perhaps a tiny pinch every other day,and careful testing of water with test kit will be needed to ensure that the fish don't die from toxins(ammonia).
> Adding too many fish,too large of fish,or overfeeding the fish, will result in very good probability that fishes will not survive.
> Best to use the fish food method that was described at the site recommended above and use the time that it takes for bacteria to develop naturally ,to research the fish that interest you to see that they share similar requirements with respect to pH ,temp, and compatability with others you have selected.
> ...


thanks for this,

we will only want to put 2 fish in for the start (for some weeks) and hardy fish at that! before introducing the nicer fish we want.

so is 5 days fish food method cycle still not enough for 2 small and hard fish?

best
mike


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

myk3 said:


> thanks for this,
> 
> we will only want to put 2 fish in for the start (for some weeks) and hardy fish at that! before introducing the nicer fish we want.
> 
> ...


It's a start, Test kit results will tell you when water changes must take place. You want to keep ammonia levels and nitrite levels no higher than .25 throughout the cycling process .


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## myk3 (Jun 21, 2010)

1077 said:


> It's a start, Test kit results will tell you when water changes must take place. You want to keep ammonia levels and nitrite levels no higher than .25 throughout the cycling process .


 
ok cool, ill go ahead and do this and get a testing kit. a little more research tells me that it will take 60 - 60 days to become fully established?


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

myk3 said:


> ok cool, ill go ahead and do this and get a testing kit. a little more research tells me that it will take 60 - 60 days to become fully established?


 Sounds about right. more than a few species of fish do much better in tanks that have been set up or established for a couple months.Far less chance of fluctuations with water parameters by this time.
After the intial two fish you start with have been in the tank for ten to fourteen days,you can introduce another couple SMALL fish, wait another ten days and perhaps a couple more small fish until you have reached the stocking level that your tank can support. In this way, the bacteria will continue to grow along with the SLOW stocking of fish .
Is extremely important not to add too many fish too soon and to stay on top of test results . Best to test the water before a water change.
Feed the fish half a dime size amount of food once every other day until the tank has cycled and once the tank has cycled,,then twice a day feedings can be the norm along with one weekly water change of 25 percent or roughly two gallons in your case (40 litre tank)


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## myk3 (Jun 21, 2010)

1077 said:


> Sounds about right. more than a few species of fish do much better in tanks that have been set up or established for a couple months.Far less chance of fluctuations with water parameters by this time.
> After the intial two fish you start with have been in the tank for ten to fourteen days,you can introduce another couple SMALL fish, wait another ten days and perhaps a couple more small fish until you have reached the stocking level that your tank can support. In this way, the bacteria will continue to grow along with the SLOW stocking of fish .
> Is extremely important not to add too many fish too soon and to stay on top of test results . Best to test the water before a water change.
> Feed the fish half a dime size amount of food once every other day until the tank has cycled and once the tank has cycled,,then twice a day feedings can be the norm along with one weekly water change of 25 percent or roughly two gallons in your case (40 litre tank)


ok thanks for all the relies so far. So after speaking with you guys and doing some research i have this summary and a question to follow...

when fish food, fish, plants or creatures such as shrimps etc are introduced to a aquarium, ammonia will start to grow.

As these ammonia levels grow a bacteria consumes and converts this in to nitrite which is toxic but not as toxic as ammonia. the ammonia levels drop and the nitrite levels rise.

As the nitrite levels rise another type of bacteria forms which consumes and converts the nitrite to nitrate which is somewhat harmless.

once these 2 bacteria’s are living in the tank the tank becomes established and a stable home for all fish.

....................................................

now here is my question... the shop said "set the tank up as per our instructions, let it run for 1 week. come back after with a water sample which we will then test for you to check to see if its suitable for fish."

If I’m not putting fish, plants fish food or shrimps in the tank to encourage ammonia how will there be able nitrate?

also if I use the fish food method for the next 5 days to build up ammonia, when i add the 2 hardy fish will i not get an even larger spike in ammonia which he bacteria may not be able to handle and convert to nitrite?

I guess what I am trying to say is, is there any advantage in running it for another 5 days without fish, fish food plants or shrimps as this isn’t going to build ammonia and instead just get the 2 hardy fish NOW to start the cycle as i feel that doing the fish food cycle for the next 5 days then adding the hardy fish could be worse than just adding the fish right away?

please advise as i would like to start a fish food cycle if you guys still think it’s best to do it before getting 2 hardy fish on Sunday.

that was a mouth full so I hope you guys can understand what I’m saying 

best


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

myk3 said:


> ok thanks for all the relies so far. So after speaking with you guys and doing some research i have this summary and a question to follow...
> 
> when fish food, fish, plants or creatures such as shrimps etc are introduced to a aquarium, ammonia will start to grow.
> 
> ...


Yes starting with just the two fish would be preferable over placing food in the tank for five days and then adding fish. Food method is fishless method and preferred over the fish in method by most.

You really will need a test kit and the API freshwater master kit is what many (myself included use).
Do also note that nitrites are just as toxic as ammonia for the fish. 
NitrAtes are the least harmful and are kept in check through weekly water changes once your tank has matured.


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## myk3 (Jun 21, 2010)

1077 said:


> Yes starting with just the two fish would be preferable over placing food in the tank for five days and then adding fish. Food method is fishless method and preferred over the fish in method by most.
> 
> You really will need a test kit and the API freshwater master kit is what many (myself included use).


great,

that is fine i will get one of these. Learnt a lot so far and glad i started the thread.

one thing we would like to do over time once the tank is fully established is to have a crab also with the fish. I understand that the crabs do leave the fish alone so they are compatible together. your comments on this will be great.

thanks


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

myk3 said:


> great,
> 
> that is fine i will get one of these. Learnt a lot so far and glad i started the thread.
> 
> ...


 Some species of crabs will need someplace to haul themselves out of the water and some require brackish water. I'm not very familiar with them so others may have more information.


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## myk3 (Jun 21, 2010)

1077 said:


> Some species of crabs will need someplace to haul themselves out of the water and some require brackish water. I'm not very familiar with them so others may have more information.


 
i beleve the red claw crab does not need to ever reach land.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I strongly recommend you read the article on cycling at the head of this section, what we refer to as a "sticky" for some background info that will hopefully make more sense of all this. Here's a direct link:

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...inners-guide-freshwater-aquarium-cycle-38617/

If you are going to put any fish, however hardy, in to cycle the tank, I also recommend you get a bottle of bacteria to jump-start the cycling. The best I have used is Seachem's "Stability." A small bottle will suffice. It contains live bacteria, I have used it and it does work. I don't normally suggest adding "stuff" to tanks, but in this case for the good of your fish I do.

Byron.


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## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

As stated in that sticky, I much prefer the shrimp method to the fish food method. It's easier to "dose," doesn't require daily upkeep (not that adding a pinch of food is difficult, but still) and most of all it doesn't make a big mess in your tank. 

To answer one of your questions, there really isn't much of a reason to run your tank without an ammonia source. I second the recommendation to get a test kit, as otherwise you really have no idea how far along the cycle is. After two weeks, you might have nothing going on, you might be in the middle of a huge ammonia or nitrite spike, or the tank might be cycled; being able to monitor the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels is really the only way to know for sure where you are. Also, to clear something up, plants in your tank (provided they're alive and healthy and not rotting or something) will aid in the cycle by taking up ammonia. They don't give off ammonia like fish and other animals do.


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