# Brown Algae everywhere!



## Togiran (Mar 23, 2008)

Hey guys. As some of you know, I have a 10 gallon tank with a Betta and an Apple Snail in it. There is a bit of Anachris too. The rest is silk. Take a look at my tank profile if you want to know more.
I have Anachris because my tap water carries a reading of 20 Nitrates.

I have brown algae growing everywhere. It's all over the leave of the plants (the fake ones) and all over the glass. It looks really horrible.

I change the water every other day, or every 2 days at most. It's been set up since late March.

Tank 
Ammonia: 0.25 
Nitrites: 0.1 
Nitrates: 10 (Yes!! This is finally lower. I guess I can thank my Anacharis.) 
pH: 8.6 

Tap 
Ammonia: 0 
Nitrites: 0 
Nitrates: 50 (I think it's somewhere between 20 and 50, the reading was 20 last time I checked back in March, but now the color is different for some reason) 
pH: 7.4 (What!? Lower than my tank's water?)

Anyone have suggestions?


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## Togiran (Mar 23, 2008)

Oh, and I'd like to add that it's even on the fake logs and large polished rocks. It's all over the thermometer and the area around the filter thing.


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## Dave66 (Mar 26, 2008)

The 'brown algae' is Diatoms, which is algae in a shell. You get them, ESPECIALLY in newer tanks, when you have excess silicates either in your tap water or your substrate or decorations and nutrient levels are all over the place. The silicates with excess Nitrate or Phosphate always equals Diatoms.

Large partial water changes thrice a week to dilute the nutrients, plus 12 hours a day of bright lighting, usually takes care of them. You can wipe them off the glass as well. Takes time to get rid of Diatoms, but they do go away.

Dave


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## Togiran (Mar 23, 2008)

So should I keep up my routine? I change the water every other day, and have flourescent lights on for about 12 hours a day arleady.


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## Togiran (Mar 23, 2008)

Guys, please. I need more help.

The algae is spreading and it's really clouding up the glass. It's unbearable.

I've been changing the water every other day/2 days. I dunno what else to do.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Vaccuming the substrate regularly ? You may also wish to remove decorations and clean them. scrape down the glass just before you do next water change and decorations have been removed. If nitrate level from Tap is too high,you may wish to search for product to help control it. There are none however that will remove it despite their claims to the contrary.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

should you clean the decorations be sure and rinse them good in dechlorinated water before you put them back in your tank.Some people use bleach at the rate of one tablespoon per gal of water to clean with or you may use vinegar and water. :wink:


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## fish_4_all (Nov 13, 2006)

Just to make sure we are dealing with diatoms here, do they come really easily and feel kinda slimy? If so then read on, if not then it could be something different. 

The diatoms are feeding on silicates, With your routine I am guessing you have silicates in your tap water. Stop doing so many water changes, all you will do is feed the silicates. 

As for "scraping" the glass, only do so with a soft object that is not gonna expose more silicates in your glass so more diatoms can feed on it. A magnetic glass scraper or even a sponge is all that is needed to remove diatoms. 

Ceramic pieces also have silicates in them so don't scrub them clean either. 

What stops them is when they do not have a source to feed on in your tank. Once the natural "slime" layer is produced and covers everything incuding decoration, gravel and the glass then they will go away, even if you have silicates in your tap water.


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## Togiran (Mar 23, 2008)

It's definitely slimy.

How often should I change the water in my tank now?
I'll go ahead and buy a magnet scraper, those seem handy.
Should I get rid of my Anachris?

I don't vacuum my gravel too much because I really have no room to, there are alot of decorations and fake plants. Not to mention the Anachris.

Should I take everything out except the betta and the snail and vacuum the gravel real good?


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## fish_4_all (Nov 13, 2006)

Leave the Anacharis, it will only help keep the tank healthier.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Always be careful not to vaccum too aggressively in a young tank. Don't go too deep and only vaccum say one third of the tank at each water change, a different area each time. In this way you will not destroy beneficial bacteria needed to break down harmful substances. I apologize for not posting this info sooner.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

This doesn't sound like a diatom algae to me. Brown slime algae can also come from excess phospates and lack of circulation in a tank. I will agree that it sounds as if something in your water is causing the problem, and the more often you do the water changes, the worse it's going to get. I am most curious to see a phosphate reading on the tap water and also on the tank. There are filter medias available that will help you to resolve this problem quickly, I can suggest a few for you to choose from. The problem is in the tap water, there are 2 long term solutions for you. 
1. Use bottled spring water, but be sure it is spring water and not distilled or basic drinking water. The filtration process is different for all of these, and distilled is not safe to use 100% and drinking water will often contain many of the same things you are dealing with now in the tap water.
2. Run a filter with media in it to remove phosphates, nitrates, and silicates (among other things). This can be done 1 of 2 ways. You can run the filter directly on the tank, provided the water current isn't too strong and doesn't stress the fish, or you could put tap water in a bucket, run the filter on there, and use the water from the bucket to do water changes. If using this bucket method, please expect the water to need to be filtered for 48 - 72 hrs before using it in the tank. This method is often needed for betta tanks because most bettas can't handle having a filter on the tank.


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## Togiran (Mar 23, 2008)

I have a Red Sea brand test kit, but it doesn't have anything that measures Phosphates (I payed $45 for it, too).

I'll take readings for both Tap and Tank water and get back to you guys shortly.

Honestly, I can't afford to be buying bottled water so often.

I can tell you right now that I have a reading of 20 Nitrates from my tap water.

There is plenty of circulation in the tank, the filter I have is really good, and it pours the water out gently enough not to disturb most of the tank.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

I took a look at the one picture you have in your tank profiles, and I see no evidence of algae. 
Can you please post a current picture of the tank with the algae in it? As much of a close up of the algae as you can get would help a lot in identifying the species, thus telling us how best to deal with it, along with a full tank shot so we can see how it is growing.

Without a picture at this point, there's not going to be any other way to identify the species of algae... unless you have the ability to run it under a microscope.

BTW, your light shown in the picture is incandescent not fluorescent, that was very obvious. Incandescent can feed brown algae. Running it for 12 hrs/day could be helping to contribute to your problem.


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## Togiran (Mar 23, 2008)

Lol, sorry, but it's DEFINITELY fluorescent. I got rid of my incandescent bulbs.

Tank/Tap parameters are coming in the next post. I'll take a picture while you look over them.


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## Togiran (Mar 23, 2008)

Here are the pictures. The algae is so bad now.


























The view from the inside out really shows how bad it is.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

What I am seeing in the photos looks like a combination of slime algae and possibly a bit of diatom. The only way to know for sure is to scope it. If you'd like to send me a sample, scrape the algae from the glass with a blade and put it with a couple of tsp's of tank water into a zip lock bag, then add another zip lock to make sure it doesn't leak. A small box so it doesn't get ruptured, and ship it off to me in regular mail. It shouldn't cost much more than mailing a large greeting card. If you pm me I'll give you the address to ship it to. I can then tell you for sure within 10 minutes or less, what kind of algae you're dealing with, what feeds it, and how best to eliminate it. Without a sample under the scope, all we'll be doing here is guessing.

I also want to add, after looking at your water parameters, I would seriously consider filtering that water before using in on your tank. If the bottled water is too much expense, simply get a bucket, a good hang on filter, and filter media like PuraPad, let the water filter for 48 - 72 hrs before using it in the tank. That will eliminate your nitrates and silicates, and phosphates if there are any. *If* it's the condition of the tap water that is feeding the algae problem, unfortunately, that is going to be about your only solution in getting rid of it.


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## Togiran (Mar 23, 2008)

Thanks bettababy, I'll consider sending out a sample to you.

Can you recommend me a good HOB filter? A link to one would be nice. Preferably Petco/Petsmart. I fill up a bucket with 2.5 gallons of water for every water change, so a HOB filter would work out well.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

I would suggest this filter, and because of what you're using it for, I'd suggest getting the one rated for up to 20 gallons. You want the turnover rate to push it through the filter media as much as possible within 48 - 72 hrs so you can use safe water.
http://www.petco.com/product/102601/Aqueon-Aquarium-Power-Filters.aspx

I am pretty sure that neither petco or petsmart will carry the filter media you are needing, I couldn't find it on either website. I also noticed that Dr's Foster & Smith doesn't have it anymore either... but I know this stuff works... so I went searching for a reliable place for you to order it online. 
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_Aquar...ra_phoslock_phos_complete_filtration_pad.html

I know a lot of people who've ordered from MarineDepot.com and had great experience with it, so you might want to give it a try. The specific product you want on that page is either the PuraPad or the PuraComplete. They are the same thing just different form. This is the only media I know of that removes so much and is safe to use long term, so you can put it in your tank filter as well as on the bucket. If using this product, you won't need to use just standard carbon in the filter, either. PuraPad is easy to cut a piece the right size to fit to replace the filter cartridge, and then simply replace it in the tank about every 3 wks, and on the bucket about once/month. For what you're doing, a little bit will go a long way!


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

chemical filtration used to remove nitrates often either decreases the production rate of nitrates from biofilter or absorbs nitrate after it has been produced.this media needs to be recharged and how often brings too many variables into play source water,feeding and maint. routine stocking levels etc. some should NOT be used in salt water or tanks using salt to treat disease for they can release nitrates rapidly and in high levels back into the tank. Some also remove CO2 (chemi-pure) comes to mind and they will also starve plants in some cases of nitrates needed.Products such as NITRA-ZORB absorb nitrate by replacing the nitrate ion and is for freshwater only. However it has been reprted to only absorb 16 to 20ppm before exhuasting and would need to be recharged about 40 times to reduce (not remove)20 ppm nitrate (per litre) in a 10 gal. tank to negligible levels.other products such as SEACHEMS DE- NITRATE must be used in low flow filters of 50 gph or less. It will not work in high flow filters. Nitrate SPONGE by KENT MARINE also for low flow filters. Coil denitrators are effective but some require feeding sugar several times per day and flow rates need constant monitoring to keep bleed valves open for they clog easily also the end result of these units is oxygen depleted water that in some cases must be run through oxygen chamber to re -oxygenate, I believe all of the afore mentioned filter media can help control nitrates. But I also believe that water cchanges combined with proper stocking levels and maint along with not overfeeding can achieve the same results easier, faster, and much cheaper. The exhaustion rate of these products can differ dramatically despite what they claim .


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## Togiran (Mar 23, 2008)

Sorry 1077, I didn't understand your post at all. It doesn't even seem to have anything to do with my algae problem.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

First of all 1077, the problem here isn't the main tank and the maintenance/feeding schedules. The problem here is the tap water. 

As for the filter medias, I have been using PuraPad for over 6 yrs now, since it first came out on the market.. both here and at the store. I have met and had a nice long visit with the guys who invented and make it, they're very nice and very informative. This product is safe in saltwater and freshwater, and it doesn't do anything funky with the water or the things it absorbs. The longer it is in the filter the better it works. The flow rate for what we're talking about doing here would be just fine if using a filter rated for 20 gallons. The water needs contact time with the media in order to clean it, and the more often it goes through the media during a 2 - 3 day period, the better shape that water will be in and ready to use on the tank safely. 
I have seen PuraPad drop a nitrate level that was off the charts in saltwater, literally overnight to under 80, and within 3 days, below 20. 
I have seen it drop nitrate and phosphate levels in large freshwater tanks, again, almost overnight... and with no ill effects. PuraPad is one of a kind, and by far the most advanced and effective filter media I've found yet. The list of what it removes from the water, such as silicates, phosphates, heavy metals, etc is much longer than for any other single product working alone.
Let's try not to be so discouraging, especially if it's about something we haven't used ourselves or know nothing about, ok?? The next closest filter pad that is this effective would be polyfilter, but that isn't safe to use long term. Polyfilter will remove too much if used long term, and is known to bottom out pH levels. The PuraPad won't do that. Anyone who's used polyfilter can attest to its effectiveness. Polyfilter is also more expensive and harder to find.

Togiran, I will suggest that you test the water in the bucket after 2 - 3 days of being filtered, just to be sure that your nitrate levels are down before using it. If the nitrates in your tap water are fluctuating, it may take a little longer to pull it all out when it's high. I am confident that PuraPad will do the trick on a nitrate level of 50 if allowed to filter for 72 hrs or more, and it will also remove the silicates that feed diatom algae, organics, etc. 
Best of luck to you and let me know if you would like me to scope the algae for you.


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## Togiran (Mar 23, 2008)

I was thinking about the Pura Complete stuff. How does something like that work? Do you just pour it between the biofilter and the charcoal filter?


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

For the Pura Complete you would need to use a mesh bag such as this:
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewI...arium_Supplies_Filter_Media_Bags~vendor~.html

That's why I suggested the pad instead of the complete... it's easier, and the pads also work to filter out solid particles like standard filter bags would.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Bettababy , Fair enough, and I apologize to both you and original poster.My fear was and is that many viewers of this forum would attempt to use quick fix product and possibly neglect proper maint. I fear I am old school and yes there are always products that can help and I have not used them all. I truly hope that product you mentioned helps the original poster. I may even break with tradition and try it myself.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

1077,
I am not a big believer in chemicals, including fertilizers and other such "additives" unless they are really needed. I prefer a natural aquarium, personally. The trick in trying to help in a place like this is that you can't assume anything about anyone. Everyone is different just like every situation is different, every tank is different. Not everyone knows the old school ways, and not everyone knows the basics. And not everyone has our favorite methods or products available to them. 
All I ask is that you not jump to conclusions, assume, or other such actions when here on FF. Please read threads in full before posting an answer, too... 
The threads we handle here at FF belong to the person who posts it, and that is the person we are here to help. If someone else needs help or has questions that don't directly pertain to the post or help with that post, we then start a new thread. 
I can say, since I've been here almost since FF began, that most of the people around here already understand about doing the maintenance in place of using chemicals... but we are also very honest that when someone is cramped for time, money, or even a good water supply, such as this post... chemicals and filter medias are often a good solution or aid in getting someone through. 
So, please come here with an open mind, and try not to get judgemental. Also, please make sure that the info you post is accurate. I noticed a post you put here earlier about the many products you seem to have a great dislike for... but your information was not entirely accurate. My husband and I were sorting through it tonight, and will sit down and post about it tomorrow when we have the time.
You don't have to be a fan of these companies and their products, but please don't bash them here, and please don't suggest to others that these things are useless. They are not useless, and can be a matter of life and death to someone's fish if they are afraid to use it based on 1 personal opinion about it. We try to bring accurate information to all posts here, and it keeps me and a handful of the others hopping sometimes... but compared to other forums found online, this is still one of the best.

Just another quick note, then I'm off to bed for the night. My husband, Rob, is the lead tech support for Kent Marine, All Glass, Oceanic, Zilla, and a number of other companies that have merged in the past few years. The head lab tech is a friend of ours, and we have detailed lab results available to us if we need them, and that is for any of the products from Central Aquatics. Your comments about the products earlier was offensive, to say the least. Rob spends a lot of time helping me here when it comes to one of his company's products, and he is able to provide tech support right here on FF when needed. Tell me another company who has employees who are that devoted? If you have questions about these products or problems with something, please... just ask! 
We'll be back tomorrow night to clear up the misunderstandings in your previous post about the various filter medias you mentioned.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Bettabay, I do read threads in full .The thread that precipitated my response indicated that nitrate from tap water was high. I believe i even suggested that original poster may wish to seek product to help CONTROL nitrates. I believe there ARE products that can help control it but have seen no evidence that would change my position in regards to removing it due to variables mentioned earlier. Let us say that tap water was not the problem and tank water was .Then the exhaustion rate of these chemical filter medias would in large part depend on maint. of the tank, how much food was being fed, and what type of fish were in the tank.while exhaustion rate listed for these productsmight be viable in a tank of tetras it could have less than desired effect in say ,a tank full of plecos or oscars. The way I see it ,it is Ok for you to solicit products that you have had success with yet you would take umbrage with some one who has had less than favorable results with other products. I will stand by the assertion that in MOST instances that... Properly sized and maintained filtration and generous regular water changes combined with vaccuming the gravel or substrate on reg basis, proper stocking, and not over feeding and MOST will have no need for products such as I railed on . As for for offending you or your husband ,I believe as you say ,that would best be suited for another thread. By the way ,How big a fella is he?


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## Togiran (Mar 23, 2008)

Just an update.

I bought an magnet scraper. It worked amazingly well. There is ton of algae all over the gravel, fake plants, fake logs and filter/heater/thermometer though.

Do you think I should just restart my tank over once I get the filter and stuff for my water bucket?


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

If the only thing in the tank is a betta, then yes, you could start over if you wanted to.


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## fish_4_all (Nov 13, 2006)

Want a simple way to get rid of algae? Try Algone, there is a sponsor link somewhere on the fourm and I have heard from many members that is so easy to use and they never had a problem with algae nor did it interfere with dosing nitrates and other needed fert for plants.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

In this kind of situation, that could get quite expensive. When the problem is based on poor quality source water, that would mean the algae treatments would be never ending... and the tank water would be toxic!

The danger in treating something like this with Algone or Algaefix....
The problem is in the source water, in this case it has a high nitrate level. Everytime a water change happens, the nitrate level goes up further. The algae is just the sign that there is a problem... nature's way of using up that nutrient level. If we put in a chemical to kill the algae, what happens to the nitrate level? Suddenly there is nothing to eat it up, and with every water change it goes higher and higher... until what? A dead fish. The only way to "fix" this problem is to take care of the nutrient level in the source water.
That is the difference between treating symptoms and treating the problem that is causing the symptoms.


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## Dave66 (Mar 26, 2008)

bettababy said:


> In this kind of situation, that could get quite expensive. When the problem is based on poor quality source water, that would mean the algae treatments would be never ending... and the tank water would be toxic!
> 
> The danger in treating something like this with Algone or Algaefix....
> The problem is in the source water, in this case it has a high nitrate level. Everytime a water change happens, the nitrate level goes up further. The algae is just the sign that there is a problem... nature's way of using up that nutrient level. If we put in a chemical to kill the algae, what happens to the nitrate level? Suddenly there is nothing to eat it up, and with every water change it goes higher and higher... until what? A dead fish. The only way to "fix" this problem is to take care of the nutrient level in the source water.
> That is the difference between treating symptoms and treating the problem that is causing the symptoms.


Thank you, BB. Articulated my thoughts perfectly.

Dave


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## fish_4_all (Nov 13, 2006)

Well from the decription of Algone and the tetimony from members who have used it, it does remove excess nutrients and restores nutrient balance. If it does, then why would it not work not only to eliminate the alge but also reomve the cause? 

I have never used anything to remove green water but when I have heard several members who say they use it to get rid of green water and have done so for years the product must do something right!. 

Algone Website:


> Use Algone to *correct nutrient imbalances* and to clear cloudy water. Maintaining an established tank with Algone helps prevent many frustrating problems related to bad water quality. Algone helps keep the aquarium crystal clear.


http://www.algone.com/


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## Andyandsue (Jan 23, 2007)

I had a similar problem. My cure was a phosphate lowering floss and the addition of Algone, if and when I get a breakout of algae. Algone is a non-chemical algae reducer, just a pouch added to the filter basket works like a charm. It's not available at chain stores though. You need to go to LFS to purchase it. I still limit the lighting to less than 10 hours a day and I always wipe the interior of the glass at every weekly water change, but that has all worked like a charm.

No toxic water, no long-lasting problems. My tap has high phosphates so the phosphate lowering floss keeps everything at bay. The Algone did what it was supposed to do, and I tapered off so as not to create some other imbalance.


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## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

I've never used Algone before, but I've heard nothing but good things about it. I'm a huge proponent of not using chemicals whenever possible, but algone does actually seem like a good solution in this case.


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## Andyandsue (Jan 23, 2007)

okiemavis said:


> I've never used Algone before, but I've heard nothing but good things about it. I'm a huge proponent of not using chemicals whenever possible, but algone does actually seem like a good solution in this case.


Algone isn't actually a chemical. It's nothing but "dried plants in a pouch" and they claim some microorganisms. No chemicals though. The only chemical I've ever used is water conditioner, which now that I think of it I've heard that overuse of that can cause algae and bacterial bloom.


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## Togiran (Mar 23, 2008)

Do you think that Algone would work in my case?


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## Andyandsue (Jan 23, 2007)

Yup! I sure do. It does take a few days though so keep that in mind.

I would also consider getting some phosphate removing filter media. 

Continue doing water changes too. Everyday if you have to.


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## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

Andy&sue- I just wanted to correct you about the water changes. I believe the problem is that the tap water comes out with such high nitrates, so frequent water changes would further feed the problem.


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## Andyandsue (Jan 23, 2007)

okiemavis said:


> Andy&sue- I just wanted to correct you about the water changes. I believe the problem is that the tap water comes out with such high nitrates, so frequent water changes would further feed the problem.


Maybe, but without testing.... I tested mine and the nitrates were 0 from the tap.


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## fish_4_all (Nov 13, 2006)

If the elodea has already taken your nitrates to 10ppm then I wouldn't do anything else except maybe add more elodea. If you really hate the little algae you have that bad, try the Algone. 

When I had densely planted tanks I actually dosed 30ppm nitrates a week and never had nitrate levels over 20ppm by the end of the week. 20ppm nitrates in my tap would mean I didn't have to dose them as much. 

Oh, and just to let you know, with your tap water having 20ppm, the more and/or larger water changes you do the closer to 20ppm your nitrates will stay. It will both bring them up toward 20 if they go below and bring them down toward 20 if they are above. 
I am not recommending you do more 2 water changes a week because this will stress the fish out worse than 20-40ppm nitrates but is something to consider.


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## fish_4_all (Nov 13, 2006)

The chart below explains it a little more. The nitrates produced by a beta and snail is high but works for the example. This also assumes that the elodea is not using any of the nitrates. If you need them explained better let me know and I will send you the spreadsheet. As you can see, even with a 50% water change once a week and 10% evaporation weekly the nitrates barely go above what is considered "toxic". 








Something else to remember:
50% water twice a week = 75% total
30% percent twice a week = 51% total
75% twice a week = 87.5% total
20% 3 times a week is just under 50%


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## Flashygrrl (Jan 18, 2008)

Andyandsue said:


> Maybe, but without testing.... I tested mine and the nitrates were 0 from the tap.


The OP gets a wide range from about 20-50 in his, thus the problem.


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## Andyandsue (Jan 23, 2007)

I noticed that after I typed that reply.  

But, for what it's worth, Algone does restore balance. I am lucky that I only need to use it once in a while if I get a touch of algae (leaving the light on too long or an uneaten algae wafer will do it for me).

Here is a link from the Algone site that talks about nitrates and algae. http://www.algone.com/nitrates.php


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## Togiran (Mar 23, 2008)

fish_4_all said:


> If you really hate the little algae you have...


I would just like to comment on this. I don't have just a "little" algae. There really is a ton of it. It got so bad before I scraped the glass with the magnet scraper, that everything looking in from the outside looked blurry. Not to mention that the algae is completely covering everything in my tank from the filter to the gravel.

Also, thanks for all the suggestions so far guys. I would be lost without you.

On a side note, the water stinks(slightly) like a swamp for lack of a better word. Is that because the algae? It couldn't be because lack of water changes or overstocking.


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## Flashygrrl (Jan 18, 2008)

It's probably the algae. So, what method are you going to go with?


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

I went to the link listed for Algone... there is nothing about its contents, active ingredients, etc. 

The explaination of what it does and what those of you here claim this product to be, doesn't make any scientific sense. If it is primarily "dried plants" then how will it eat a nutrient level?
Most products such as this, Algaefix is a good example, simply bind the algae into a more solid form so that it is trapped by filter media. After using it, it is clearly noticable that the filter media turns green and/or brown, and you can see the algae trapped there. 

I am also pondering the use of the plants to eat the nutrient level from the source water. In doing something like that, would you not be forcing water params for nitrate to jump back and forth from 50ppm to whatever the plants are able to eat it down to once it is in the tank? Drastic changes in water params, especially if frequent, are deadly to fish. Nitrates is no exception to that.

As for the chart, I am curious where that came from? Science tells us that water evaporates, nutrient levels do not. If you have a 10 gallon tank with 50ppm nitrate reading, and 1 gallon of that water evaporates, that means 9 gallons of water and nitrates at 50ppm. Nutrient levels are simply concentrated. If doing a water change with water containing 50ppm nitrate, that will simply add to the already 50+ppm nitrate, and add a gallon of water. Either way you look at it, nitrates again increases. If plants are able to bring the nitrate level down to 20 in the course of a week, and 50ppm of nitrates is added each week, that means the plants are able to eat up 30ppm/wk. If you increase the water changes to 2 - 3 times each week, the plants no longer have a full week to eat 30ppm, and at the same time, 2 - 3 times in that week you are adding 50ppm more with each change. Again, any way you look at it, nitrates continues to increase.

The theories I have read here thus far don't make scientific sense.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

1077 said:


> chemical filtration used to remove nitrates often either decreases the production rate of nitrates from biofilter or absorbs nitrate after it has been produced.this media needs to be recharged and how often brings too many variables into play source water,feeding and maint. routine stocking levels etc. some should NOT be used in salt water or tanks using salt to treat disease for they can release nitrates rapidly and in high levels back into the tank. Some also remove CO2 (chemi-pure) comes to mind and they will also starve plants in some cases of nitrates needed.Products such as NITRA-ZORB absorb nitrate by replacing the nitrate ion and is for freshwater only. However it has been reprted to only absorb 16 to 20ppm before exhuasting and would need to be recharged about 40 times to reduce (not remove)20 ppm nitrate (per litre) in a 10 gal. tank to negligible levels.other products such as SEACHEMS DE- nitrate must be used in low flow filters of 50 gph or less. It will not work in high flow filters. nitrate SPONGE by KENT MARINE also for low flow filters. Coil denitrators are effective but some require feeding sugar several times per day and flow rates need constant monitoring to keep bleed valves open for they clog easily also the end result of these units is oxygen depleted water that in some cases must be run through oxygen chamber to re -oxygenate, I believe all of the afore mentioned filter media can help control nitrates. But I also believe that water cchanges combined with proper stocking levels and maint along with not overfeeding can achieve the same results easier, faster, and much cheaper. The exhaustion rate of these products can differ dramatically despite what they claim .


I forwarded a copy of this post to the head Lab Tech for Oceanic, Kent Marine, Allglass, etc (he is head lab tech for all of these companies since they merged).
I would like to post his response, as I found it very interesting and in direct contradiction to most of what was said here.
Here is his reply:

*Seachem’s denitrate and Kent Nitrate sponge are the same product. Zeolitic mineral. These absorb ammonia in freshwater but because of their porous structure when used in an anaerobic environment provide a habitat for denitrifying bacteria which will consume nitrate and reduce it to insoluble nitrogen gas.
The resins referenced not for use in saltwater would not RELEASE nitrates rapidly into the system unless they were being used to adsorb nitrates in a freshwater system first. I believe he is referencing many of the resins that regenerate with saltwater replacing their adsorbed material with either sodium or chloride depending on the type of resin. When used in saltwater these resins really do nothing as they are constantly exchanging their absorbed material with sodium or chloride. For the most part ion exchange resins really work best in freshwater systems.
I am not familiar enough with the composition and properties of the ion exchange resins used in Chemipure and Nitrazorb to comment on their nitrate removing abilities. I do find the claim that Chemipure removes carbon dioxide odd and would ask that the person provide any evidence to that statement. Some ion exchange resins can remove carbonates (CO3 + HCO3) which Chemipure may do. However that is different than carbon dioxide which forms carbonic acid (H2CO3) when dissolved in water. I think that this person is confusing the reaction you get when you add fresh activated carbon (which forms the bulk of a bag of Chemipure). As many hobbyists know pH will increase rapidly when you change carbon. This is due to the rapid removal of dissolved organic acids (tannins mostly) that have leached into the water. This causes an increase in pH and redox potential. In fact the quality of a carbon is often measured by its ability to remove tannins. This is called the tannin number. There are also iodine numbers (used to measure small molecule removal) and molasses numbers (used for large chain molecule removal). The reaction is usually short lived as the tannins continue to be released by the biological organisms in the aquarium and the rate of removal by the activated carbon decreases. The pH increase is more pronounced in soft water systems with less of the buffering effect of high levels of carbonates. Lastly, any carbon lost to adsorption by the resin is going to be mitigated by the release of carbon into the system by the activated carbon.
I really can’t argue with the last part. Water changes (dilution) is still the single best way to maintain water quality. This is because it has such a broad effect. Chemical media does have a lot of variables that can affect its performance. But if used properly it can reduce the frequency of water changes and will improve water conditions between water changes but it is not the end all solution to maintaining water quality issues.*

After that reply, he emailed again with a bit more to add:

*I did a little more research. The ion exchange resin in Chemipure is a positive ion adsorber as such there is no way it could remove the negatively charged carbonate ions in water.*

I wanted to post this because I felt it important to clear up the misinformation posted here.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Bettababy, I appreciate the time and trouble you went to for I know it is the best interest of the pets that is your primary concern and to educate those who are new to the hobby. Once again ..I apologize .I only took issue with claims of numerous chemical filter media out there that will REMOVE nitrates and quickly. Most state that they bind, lower, reduce,ETC. I will share a quote from a previous post and out of respect for the poster ,they shall remain nameless."when you can show me that product or products work in such a way that I will no longer have to flush the toilet then we can talk."As for product chemi-pure the list on the back of the tub it comes in states what it removes CO2 being one of them.I suppose it could be a misprint?


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

1077,
You have taken my words out of context. I believe the product I was referring to when I made the satement about flushing the toilet was Easy Balance. It is a product made by Tetra and made claims that it reduced the need for water changes.
I am not saying that any filter media will remove everything and quickly, (although I do know of a few that DO give those reults, and I have worked with them first hand), but Easy Balance is not a filter media.

After spending countless hours drilling the Tetra reps, I was finally rewarded with the explaination about how it binds the nutrient level, but does not remove it... making their claims invalid.

As for the Chemi-pure, I will ask him what he says to the information printed on their label. I went and pulled a jar of it from my shelf to read it myself, and it does state that it removes CO2. I'm sure he has some scientific basis for his explaination. I know this man personally, and I know his level of education and smarts. I also know what tools and equipment he has available to him for testing such things. Some of those pieces of equipment cost more than my house!

As for the filter medias I mentioned that DO work to reduce waste levels and such in the water, polyfilter is well known for its ability to work overnight on the worst of problems. It pulls everything out. Anyone who has used it and done the water testing can vouch for that! Purapad also produces those same results, but not quite as quickly. Purapad can take a couple of days to do it.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

I am not attempting to cast any doubt on your experts abilities nor on your capabilities. I used the chemi- pure in my discus tank for approx. one month .Even hardy plants such as anubia, and swords began to suffer.I do not use CO2 injection and could not justify the expense with less than favorable results . It may or may not interest you to know that i do believe there is a place in the hobby for chemical media but as you say ..until they produce data sheets with long term testing results with the purchase of their products surely YOU can appreciate a skeptic such as myself. I have also ordered the pura pad you spoke of and will try it in quarantine tank .If it will reduce number of water changes according to nitrate test then you will have sold me ! :wink:


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## Andyandsue (Jan 23, 2007)

While I can't comment or dispute comments made by a head lab tech since my degree has nothing to do with science, I can speak from experience that whatever Algone does, it does well. I don't use it on constant basis and my tank has never gone awry by stopping it. It works; If I have a breakout of algae or bacterial bloom the water clears up and my water parameters are stable. I will always have some on hand, I will always recommend it, and doubt I'll ever stop using it when it's needed.

The easiest way to tell, and this is just my opinion, if Algone (or any other remedy for that matter) is working on nitrates would just be to get some, add it, and test your parameters while keeping a close eye on how the water looks. I am a bit obsessive when it comes to testing. As soon as I see something I don't like I test, try to fix the problem, give it a few hours and test again, and problems seem to be solved quickly that way. I've never used chemicals other than tap water conditioner and the phosphate lowering floss . At least that's what works for me.


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## fish_4_all (Nov 13, 2006)

Algone is an option to keep your algae at bay once you get things under control. 

Another option is to use Reverse osmosis filtering sytems. Can be expensive to get the utit but would do whay you need if I understand them right.
Just be aware that you may have to add buffering agents back into the water as it removes everything.


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## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

Why not just add bottled water instead of r/o? It still has the good minerals and such, but will most likely be significantly lower in phosphates, nitrates etc.


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## Togiran (Mar 23, 2008)

Okiemavis: I dunno. I suppose it could be cheaper than buying that special filter and stuff, since bettababy said I would have to change it out every month.

What do you guys think would be my best option?


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## Togiran (Mar 23, 2008)

Any definite suggestions would be great.

Just try to put yourself in my shoes, and give me the best course of action.

I would do all of them (algone, bottled water, purapad) if I could afford them, but it seems like I can only afford one of them long term.

Thanks.


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## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

I think all of them would probably be effective, so you might as well pick whichever one you feel would be simplest and most cost effective. Personally, I think that bottled water would be best because then you don't need to remove any nitrates, as they wouldn't be there in the first place. However, it's kind of a hassle to buy all that water, so it's your choice.

I wanted to add, I'm 99% positive that the EPA standards for nitrates in tap water is 10ppm, so yours is way out of that range. Nitrates in water are dangerous to babies, young children and pregnant women. I would really call your water company, and if they don't respond, the EPA to file a complaint. While they may be able to say that your test kit is inaccurate, there's no way it's THAT far off.

Here's a link to the EPA page on nitrates in tap water.
http://www.epa.gov/safewater/contaminants/dw_contamfs/nitrates.html


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## Togiran (Mar 23, 2008)

Okiemavis, you're right. I read about that.

I think I will call the water company. But what will the EPA do? Make them clean it up?


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## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

Bettababy: If you have 50 parts per million of nitrates and one gallon of your ten gallon tank evaporates, you do not still have 50 parts per million of nitrates. Your concentration of nitrates will increase as you have less water. Granted you will lose some nitrates during evaporation, you still need to account for increased nitrate concentrations when water has evaporated.


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## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

The EPA better make them clean it up! I mean, that's what they're there for.

Honestly, that nitrate level is just unacceptable. It's not healthy for humans to be drinking it, never mind allowing your fish to swim in it. Complain, call, write, make a fuss, get your friends to complain, write to your local newspaper, call your local representative.

Ok, I may be taking that just a little too far, but I'm bugged when big utilities are allowed to get away with stuff like that.


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