# GH/KH and PH??



## fishyinpa (Dec 25, 2008)

I have multiple betta tanks and recently lost 3 within two weeks. I have figured out it was because of PH shock. I tested my GH/KH levels today,my gh is soft (okay for bettas) and my kh is very very low (bad for bettas). Which as you probably know,can cause rapid PH changes,and possibly death in some. 

So I was wondering how to raise my KH without affecting the PH too much? Most of my tanks are between 7.0 and 7.4. My cycled 10 gallon is rather high at 7.8. I think I will leave that tank alone. 

Only ones who seem happy with current water conditions is my Panda Corys. They even had a baby on me,so I know they are happy.

I was considering using a mix of bottled water (after testing multiple brands to see who has the levels im looking for) and tap water. Is this a good idea? 

For conditoner,do i add same amount for the whole mix of water or just treat the tap? 

I am so confused. 

Okay now I am reading about adding crushed coral to the tanks. Anyone done this?

Any help is appreciated. :-?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

What was it that made you suspect pH shock? Did you test the pH? Do you regularly test it to see if it's fluctuating?

Generally, the pH in an aquarium will gradually lower (become more acidic) due to the biological processes at work in the tank. If the water has a pH buffer capability (due to the hardness) it will prevent the pH from lowering until such time as the buffering capacity is reached, then the pH will drop significantly because there is nothing to prevent this. But if your hardness is minimal such that there is no effective buffering, the pH lowering will be slow, not sudden.

My tap water is very soft, scarcely any gH or kH but I never had pH fluctuations in my tanks (pH runs 6.2 to 6.5 with the diurnal shift). When I first set up a new tank, I notice that after a couple of months, the pH will slowly drop; I'm talking of a change of maybe .2 in a month. When it gets down to 6.2 or 6.4, where I like it because of my soft acidic water fish, I put about half a cup of dolomite gravel in a nylon bag in the upper filter basket to add a bit of mineral. This has (for 10+ years) maintained a stable pH, or at any rate the pH has never fluctuated which is probably a more accurate statement. If you start adding coral or dolomite (both do the same) it will raise the pH, and if it is between 7.0 and 7.4 I would not want it higher for bettas or any acidic-water fish.

There is a lot of useful info on this topic here: Beginner FAQ: Water Chemistry including how to alter hardness, etc., safely.


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## fishyinpa (Dec 25, 2008)

Hmm okay thanks Byron. I tested the tanks of the fish that died,their pH was between 7.8 and 8.0. All my other tanks (which I changed at a different time from those three) are between 7.0 and 7.4. My cycled tank is at 7.8,but being cycled he has no issues with it. 

For the month of June we had nothing but rain. Quite literally. We did not have one full day of sunshine at all. So I was thinking maybe I changed those three fishes water after a particularly large amount of rainfall. I cant remember now though. 

I got three new bettas, and they have been acting strangely. The one I tested his water and his pH was quite high (7.8-8.0) so I changed that out and now its low again,he is happy. So I am not sure if the place we got our water from is messing with it,the plumbing here,but our tap pH does seem to change quite a bit. 

Thanks again. Maybe I am off my mark here,but its a thought. I rather not mess with chemicals and their tanks,so if you think just leave them be,I will. Maybe I will just test the tap each time before I do a wc.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

fishyinpa said:


> Hmm okay thanks Byron. I tested the tanks of the fish that died,their pH was between 7.8 and 8.0. All my other tanks (which I changed at a different time from those three) are between 7.0 and 7.4. My cycled tank is at 7.8,but being cycled he has no issues with it.
> 
> For the month of June we had nothing but rain. Quite literally. We did not have one full day of sunshine at all. So I was thinking maybe I changed those three fishes water after a particularly large amount of rainfall. I cant remember now though.
> 
> ...


If I'm understanding correctly, the culprit seems to be your tap water; the pH is fluctuating. If that is the case, yes, I wold suggest testing it before each pwc. Assuming the tank pH remains stable on its own, you could adjust the tap water before adding it (not in the tank). The tank's buffer will keep it steady. Years ago I had to resort to this, only in reverse; the tap water plummeted to below 6 and I had to raise it before I could add the water. As long as the change is done to the water before it goes into the aquarium, I think it's safe. If others think this is problematical, I'm sure they will let us know. If the concensus is that this is not good, you could always mix bottled water with the tap water as you questioned in the original post.

I certainly would not fiddle with the hardness with coral, that will definitely raise the pH in the tank.

Byron.


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## fishyinpa (Dec 25, 2008)

Yeah,I dont want to mess up the balance of my tanks. Everyone seems healthy and happy now,rather keep them that way!! Other than my newbies having issues. So yeah I will test it each time before a wc. I bought several different brands of bottled water,going to test them and see what they say.


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## fishyinpa (Dec 25, 2008)

Okay so the two waters from walmart were a no. Zero KH. The one from the one supermarket down the road,KH was good,80 or 4.4 something....but the GH was very high,so its really hard water. Not sure I want to mix that. Also the pH was very low,6.4. *sigh* next!!


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

Just a rambling thought I want to throw out there for consideration. I bought the GH/KH kit and after testing multiple times I determined that my water is BEYOND hard. It was crazy how many drops I had to add before I saw the color change. My line of thinking was that I'd have to work with the water I had because while I could have done bottled water for my 6gl betta tanks there was no way I was going to do bottled water on my 100gl display. 
So I said to heck with the GH/KH numbers and simply decided to ignore it. My fish are doing just fine (as they always have) even though nearly all them are said to require water parameters which Byron maintains in his tanks. I've since shelved my GH/KH kit. 
My ph is stable at 7.8 with a diurnal shift of 8.0.
I suppose my question is: Can fishyinpa concentrate on obtaining a water source that has a stable PH and not worry about the GH/KH?? My betta does fine in my hard water. :-?


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## fishyinpa (Dec 25, 2008)

Hmm...I can try!! I have ignored the gh/kh for longest time(since I cycled Fishys tank,yay). But after some of my fish died, I went a lil nuts trying to figure out what happened to them. May not have been the best thing to do,my brain is on overload now. Way too much information. Makes ya mad at yaself for not doing good in chemistry class lol!! 

I did notice though,I have written down in a notebook from when I was testing Fishys water everyday during cycling,that the kh was at a good range. So maybe with all the rain we had it messed things up.

So on that note, I think I will just test the pH,ignore gh/kh (makes my brain hurt trying to figure it all out) and keep tabs on everyones tank,hopefully they will remain stable. 

My only concern really is when I go for a full wc. So,I guess then just test their water and the tap and hopefully its pretty close. 

So I agree Aunt Kymmie.

The tap pH is 7.0. Not too bad,but does fluctuate which in turn all my tanks seem to have diff pH's lol. *sigh* what did i get myself into??


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

Whoaaa...don't agree with me. I just realized you're doing full 100% w/c. I do weekly partials. I do big partials (40 %) but they are not 100%. I realize now that I was comparing apples to oranges. 
Let's wait for Byron and his input; he's so dialed in on this. While we may have done lousy at chemistry I have a feeling he was "teacher's pet". 

I know you keep pandas (who are sensitive) who are doing well, you use the same water on all your tanks, which is why I thought perhaps your Gh/Kh wasn't a big deal. It only occurred to me after I posted that your pandas are in your cycled tank. Don't get frustrated, it'll get sorted out. Fishkeeping has its bumps in the road at times but so well worth it in the long run!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I certainly agree with Kym that you should not fiddle with the hardness. I thought I was on that road originally, so sorry if I didn't come across as intended. I have never fussed over hardness, but knowing that my tap water is soft or very soft, naturally I wouldn't be fussing given the acidic soft water fish I maintain. When I had livebearers and rift lake cichlids, I used dolomite to raise the pH and hardness and it worked fine and was very stable, even with partial water changes using the soft acidic (pH below 6) tap water.

The pH of your tap water does seem to fluctuate, and I would simply test it before a pwc and adjust it if needed to be close (within .4) of the tank pH. As I said before, I have had to resort to this and I never noticed any buffering issues in the tank when i adjusted the tap water prior to adding it. As long as the tank is stable itself, I think it should be OK. But again, if others with more knowledge in this area disagree, I will concede.

If the tap water is pH 7 there is no reason the pH in the tank should be higher unless there is something to cause this, like calcium-based gravel or rocks.

I think the above will work for partial water changes of 30-40%. Maybe I've missed something, but why are you doing 100% water changes?

Byron.


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## fishyinpa (Dec 25, 2008)

I do have small tanks,a 2.5,4 and 4.5 unfiltered,uncycled,so once a month a do 100%. Is that not right lol? I normally do 50% on them. 

Yup my pandas are loving it apparently lol. 

I tested my GH ( I know we said ignore it but i was curious) and now my tap is Very Soft. So something did change in our water supply. 

As for the tanks,only thing I can think of is their airstone? Not sure what its made of. Other than that they have fake silk plants,decoration of some sort(plastic i think) and those vase type stones you find in the craft store.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

fishyinpa said:


> I do have small tanks,a 2.5,4 and 4.5 unfiltered,uncycled,so once a month a do 100%. Is that not right lol? I normally do 50% on them.
> 
> Yup my pandas are loving it apparently lol.
> 
> ...


All water changes are more effective at maintaining stable conditions in the tank when carried out more frequently with less water changed rather than less often with more water. If you could do 25% each week it would in my opinion make for a much more stable environment for the inhabitants. Very important.

An airstone wouldn't affect pH. What are those craft store stones? That doesn't sound too good; who know what may be leeching from them? I don't know what they are, but it seems likely they could be calcium-based so I would suggest removing them immediately and continuing with normal weekly pwc and monitor pH to see if it stabilizes. Even with a fluctuating tap water pH, if only 25% is changed and the tank itself is stable, there should be no problem. I do 40-50% of my 70g and 90g every week, the tap water is 6.8 or 7.0, the tank is 6.2 immediately before the pwc, and an hour after the pwc the tank is 6.4-6.5 which is fine. I believe the stability of the tank biological system is the key. And of course not adding water that varies too much.


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## fishyinpa (Dec 25, 2008)

Hmm...my tap has changed again!! 

Yesterday-
GH 4.48 (very soft)
KH 1.68 (very low)

Today-
GH 7.8 (soft)
KH 3.36 (still kinda low,but not as bad as yesterday)

The pH has remained the same. So in short,I think I am gonna forget all about GH and KH LOL. 
Just test for pH. This was way too much work for my lil brain. I am done thinking about it. 

Thanks for reading and putting up with me haha.


Thanks for everything Byron and Aunt Kymmie.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Just a thought.... when you test pH of the tap, you need to allow for excess CO2 to dissolve from the sample prior to testing, otherwise you will get a false low pH reading. For best results, you should allow overnight for this to occur, preferably with the help of an air stone.

On the subject of harness, I agree that you do not necessarily want to adjust hardness. However, with a daily hardness testing you can get an idea of long it takes for the carbonates and other buffering ions in your water to be depleted, at which point the pH will begin to swing. In a freshwater aquarium, testing hardness can be an excellent indicator of when it is time to do the appropriate water change.

For the original question, you stated that your GH is ok, but your KH is extremely low. All this means is that you lack carbonate buffering ions. General hardness is a measure of all the buffering ions, including bicarbonates, borate, and phosphorus. Having a low KH is not necessarily a bad thing, provided your GH is sufficient to prevent pH swings. I would personally add a buffer, such as Proper pH 6.5, to replenish some carbonate ions.


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## fishyinpa (Dec 25, 2008)

Thanks Pasfur! I was wondering what I could do about the low KH without messing up the pH too much. I will have to look at my lfs.


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