# 25 Gallon Amazonian Biotype



## Pearl2011 (May 21, 2012)

If I were to do an amazonian bio type in my 25 gallon, would these option work? And what are some other considerations for a ABT community?

12 Ember tetras
Bristle Nose Pleco
1 pair of blue rams (or is there another dwarf I could go with?)

School of corydoras
SAL
School of caridnals/neons (which is hardiest? and less wild caught?) 

School of hatchet fish
BN Pleco
School of small tetras


Plants: Amazon frog bit and duckweed
Amazon sword, pygmy chain sword, vals, and anubias. Can a Tiger lotus go in there? 
I have driftwood that seems to leach tannins, so yay me 

Are they're any other fish or plants species that are native that I could use? (I still need to do my research for most of those fish).


Thanks for any help!! )


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

First question is, just how "authentic" do you want this to be? A strict biotope will restrict you to fish and plants (if any) that are found together in a particular stream. A geographic Amazonian setup will mean fish and plants native to the Amazon but not necessarily found together. The latter obviously has more options in terms of fish species, and plants.

Second question, what are your tap water parameters? GH (general hardness) and pH will be very important if the fish are to be wild caught; if fish are commercially raised there are still limits.

Third, what is the tank length? This is somewhat more important than the volume.

On paper, any of your 3 setups will work, but your answer to the above points will impact these.

Byron.


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## Pearl2011 (May 21, 2012)

I think I would want the amazon in general. More species available to put in. The length is 24 inches, but is is 20 inches tall.
From the tap:
pH: 6.4
GH: 75 (according to the city-website-thing-a-ma-bob). I believe that is soft?

Is the Siamese algae eater form the amazon? Was thinking about that now and realized the amazon isn't Siamese. Or is it? 2 25 watts screw in bulbs are too bright, even with floating plants, right? This is the list of plants:

Pygmy chain sword
Amazon Sword
Large Leaf Amazon sword
Amazon frog bit and Duckweed
Red Melon sword


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## Pearl2011 (May 21, 2012)

1. The amazon in general as it will probably give me more options.

2. pH: 6.4 GH: 75 (from the city's website)

3. 24x20x12 (LxHxW)

Siamese Algae Eaters and BN Plecos are from there (right?) So that could be my algae eater. Cardinal, neon or ember tetras, and as a 'focal' point' 2 blue rams.


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## Pearl2011 (May 21, 2012)

On AqAdvisor.com I put in what I wanted and it said that with an AquaClear 20 my tank does not have enough filtration capacity. My stocking list was:
12 cardinal tetras
2 Blue Rams
1 BM Pleco

How is the filter only 58%?! My stocking is 106%. Won't live plants help this?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Pearl2011 said:


> I think I would want the amazon in general. More species available to put in. The length is 24 inches, but is is 20 inches tall.
> From the tap:
> pH: 6.4
> GH: 75 (according to the city-website-thing-a-ma-bob). I believe that is soft?
> ...


Water is very good. Yes, 75 must be ppm (or mg/liter) which equates with 4 dGH which is perfect as it is very soft but just enough hard mineral for the plants. The pH is excellent too; it will likely lower as the biology settles, so when the tank is set up test the pH periodically--maybe prior to the first water change, then 3-4 days later, then just before the next water change. See where this gets you. Don't worry about a lowering pH, but you do want to know what it does.

The tank size is ideal for quiet fish, so this means no active swimmers but rather cruising browsers.:lol: Cardinal tetra are such, and with your water these will be at their best. Pencilfish, any species except Nannostomus beckfordi which is too active; the others are all quiet browsers. And the small hatchetfish in the genus _Carnegiella_, the Marble Hatchetfish or the Black-Winged Hatchetfish are best. Check the profiles. Ember Tetra are fine, no problem with the other suggested fish here. And you could do the Blue Ram, but here you need warm water, 82F, and not all fish or plants will last. Before I get into breaking this down, give the ram some thought; myself, I wold prefer more smaller fish rather than a pair of rams that will limit other fish--and when they spawn, look out, the catfish will be targets.

Siamese Algae is Asian, and gets too large and feisty for this tank. The Bristlenose Pleco is fine, or for something different and because you have the perfect water for it, Twig Catfish. Check profile. The Whiptail Catfish and related Red Lizard Whiptail are other possibilities, all peaceful, quiet fish, good algae eaters, with interest (looking rather "prehistoric") as well.

Plants. Forget the Echinodorus cordifolius, it is much too large. The pygmy chain sword or the chain sword, ideal. One Amazon Sword as a display plant. Dwarf Sword if you can find them. Amazon Frogbit is a nice plant, but i cannot keep it in my tanks, and I have decided it is either the closed top or the soft water, or both. And as you will have this too (with hatchets you must have a good cover) you can try it and see, but be prepared. Water Sprite grows very well in all my tanks. Or Brazilian Pennywort left floating works too.

Filter. I would suggest something else to minimize water movement. This is where a simple sponge filter connected to a small air[pump works fine. I use this on my smaller (under 50g) tanks. Or an internal sponge-type, such as the Fluval U series if you don't want an air pump; air pumps are noisy, so if that is an issue, go with the Fluval U1 or U2.


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## Pearl2011 (May 21, 2012)

How did I post three times?! I kept trying because it wouldn't! I spent five minute reloading! Sorry if I seem like I'm mental (cause I iz)
Dont BN plecos have a possibility of graving through plants anyway? I will look at the other possibilities too. Stocking list so far:
Whiptail catfish (or the like)
12 Cardinals

What other fish . . . maybe a school of corydoras, or a couple other fish. So many fish, so little tank  

Byron, you probably the most helpful person on the forum. Thank you so so SO much.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Pearl2011 said:


> How did I post three times?! I kept trying because it wouldn't! I spent five minute reloading! Sorry if I seem like I'm mental (cause I iz)
> Dont BN plecos have a possibility of graving through plants anyway? I will look at the other possibilities too. Stocking list so far:
> Whiptail catfish (or the like)
> 12 Cardinals
> ...


Yes, a group of corys is fine. I gave several fish suggestions in the last post.


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## Pearl2011 (May 21, 2012)

Oh, and for the filter if I turn it down all the way will that be okay? I just dont have the money to buy a new filter. If the gravel isn't that dark, is it okay?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Pearl2011 said:


> Oh, and for the filter if I turn it down all the way will that be okay? I just dont have the money to buy a new filter. If the gravel isn't that dark, is it okay?


Substrate colour and grain size is important. Don't know what you have, but a fine gravel (grains 1-2 mm) or sand (sand esp if substrate fish like corys or loaches are intended) is best, and dark but as long as it isn't white.

You may be able to baffle the filter as well as turning it down.


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## Pearl2011 (May 21, 2012)

The gravel is 2-5mm. Guess corys are out. I actually didn't get sand because it seems like such a pain to clean.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Pearl2011 said:


> The gravel is 2-5mm. Guess corys are out. I actually didn't get sand because it seems like such a pain to clean.


That sounds like what is termed pea gravel. I had it in one tank but got rid of it. It is smooth enough so the corys would be OK from that aspect, but they do love to root in sand and that is half the fun. Play sand is cheap, and you could always switch. "Cleaning" is not really necessary with plants and not overfeeding.


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## Pearl2011 (May 21, 2012)

The bag said river rock. I'll find a picture . . .


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## Pearl2011 (May 21, 2012)

Here is the gravel. Hope this pic works . .

Sorry, the camera was all wonky and I was laughing so hard I couldn't keep it still.

Dad: What are you doing?
Me: Taking pictures of rocks
Dad: *shakes head slowly and leaves . . .*


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Pearl2011 said:


> Here is the gravel. Hope this pic works . .
> 
> Sorry, the camera was all wonky and I was laughing so hard I couldn't keep it still.
> 
> ...


Yes, that size gravel is usually called pea gravel by aquarists, since the pieces are roughly the size of a green pea. I got some from a landscape place that called it "birdseye" and probably for the same reason, approxiimate size. It is not sharp, so no issues there. But the substrate rooting habit of corys would be next to impossible.

This type of gravel is excellent in a Central American habitat tank, or an Asian riverscape.


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## Pearl2011 (May 21, 2012)

The sand is so cheap though. I might as well try it. Good thing to try (watch me change all my tanks to sand ) and if I dont like it wont kill me. Are these brands okay?
Search Results for play sand at The Home Depot


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## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Pearl2011 said:


> The sand is so cheap though. I might as well try it. Good thing to try (watch me change all my tanks to sand ) and if I dont like it wont kill me. Are these brands okay?
> Search Results for*play sand*at The Home Depot


I can't really seak for those brands, as I don't know how they differ, if at all. I used Quikrete play sand. I thought t was from Home Depot, but didn't see it on the link. That means I probably got confused and it was from Lowes. Whatever kind you get just make sure you clean it, then clean it some more, or and clean it after that too.

Byron mentioned red lizard whiptails and I just have to say that is the favorite fish of all I own. I had trouble finding them and it wasn't cheap, but I still love them. Mine is even more outgoing than my corys. I lost one of mine right after shipping, and a second since then. The third is still around and ha grown nicely. If I could find more I'd replace my lost ones in a heartbeat.

Are you going to include dried leaves as well?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Pearl2011 said:


> The sand is so cheap though. I might as well try it. Good thing to try (watch me change all my tanks to sand ) and if I dont like it wont kill me. Are these brands okay?
> Search Results for*play sand*at The Home Depot


I would have to see those myself, not familiar with them. Home Depot here carries Quikrete, but I believe others have mentioned Lowe's too, so try there if you have one.

As long as it isn't white (The Quikrete is "tan" which is a mix of black/tan/gray/off-white). And, make sure it is inert so it won't alter the water chemistry. Q is inert.


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## Pearl2011 (May 21, 2012)

Thanks Byron!
Is Eco Complete or Flourite better? Or the same thing?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Pearl2011 said:


> Thanks Byron!
> Is Eco Complete or Flourite better? Or the same thing?


No, very much a different thing. These are enriched substrates, at least supposedly; according to the manufacturers, they provide long-term release of nutrients to plants. I finally relented and bought Flourite for my 70g, and it cost me $180. I am not happy with the results, and in fact, this month I will almost certainly be pulling this tank down and replacing the Flourite with plain playsand which will cost me a grand total of $14 by comparison. I have had this tank running for over 15 months now, and the same species of plants are as good and in truth slightly better in my sand tanks. And I am having to add liquid ferts just the same in both. In my opinion, these products are not worth the money. And they are not good for substrate fish like corys; I still feel the sharpness of the Flourite with my hand when planting.

You'll find nothing less expensive than play sand, and it has no issues whatsoever for plants or fish.


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## Pearl2011 (May 21, 2012)

Thaanks again Byron!


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## Pearl2011 (May 21, 2012)

I GOT PLAY SAND  

So happy! OMG it was so dirty I had rinsed it well 5 times before the water wasn't brown. Took me about an hour and now it is nice and clean. I actually got it from Rona since it was closer. And it was beside a 7/11 and it was free Slurpee day  I settles really well too. I love it!! Watch me put it in all my tanks now . . . will try Bubbles tank today )


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## Pearl2011 (May 21, 2012)

What the heck?? I tested the tapwater today and instead of being 6.4ish like it was beforehand. It is now 7.6, with the sand it was more blue and I ended up having to use the pool tester becuase mine did not go that high. It is more red then the 8.2 result. OMG I am sooo mad!!! O_O


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Pearl2011 said:


> What the heck?? I tested the tapwater today and instead of being 6.4ish like it was beforehand. It is now 7.6, with the sand it was more blue and I ended up having to use the pool tester becuase mine did not go that high. It is more red then the 8.2 result. OMG I am sooo mad!!! O_O


Are you saying the water in the tank rose in pH after the sand went in, or that the tap water on its own is higher in pH now? Just want to be clear.


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## Pearl2011 (May 21, 2012)

Its higher on its own, and get even higher with the sand.
So ticked off right now.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Pearl2011 said:


> Its higher on its own, and get even higher with the sand.
> So ticked off right now.


I would doubt the sand is doing this. I'll explain.

Tap water has some amount of dissolved CO2 in it; this varies, depending where you are. When testing tap water for pH, always either let the tap water sit overnight, or put some in a bottle and shake it very briskly for a couple minutes. This out-gasses the CO2. Then test the pH. Depending upon the amount of CO2, the pH will be higher after the CO2 is out-gassed than it was prior. CO2 creates carbonic acid that naturally lowers the pH.

Try this and see what you get for the tap water. Which then should be close to the tank water. Playsand has no calcareous substances in it to affect water chemistry, at least my playsand doesn't.

It is possible the municipal water can change in pH. The source of the water may be variable due to environmental factors from season to season; there may be more than one source and the water in each source may be different; or the municipality may add some substance to alter the pH. The latter is common if the source water is acidic, since this has a tendency to gradually dissolve water pipes, appliances, water heaters, etc because of the acidity, so they add sodium ash or whatever to keep the pH higher.


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## Pearl2011 (May 21, 2012)

The water I had tested had been sitting out for a couple of days, same with the water with the sand. I know fish can adapt to higher pH, but I dont think they can adapt to this.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Pearl2011 said:


> The water I had tested had been sitting out for a couple of days, same with the water with the sand. I know fish can adapt to higher pH, but I dont think they can adapt to this.


Well, leave it regardless. I have had fluctuations in pH caused by the water source and you can't really do anything about that. My tanks have for months and years been down around pH 5 and 6 (depending if I buffer). Within the past few weeks, they have all been in the high 6's. I've tracked it down to the source water (tap water). There's no other explanation. And i can't change this.


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## Pearl2011 (May 21, 2012)

Maybe i didnt shake it long enough or put in enough or too many drops, but in a better light after counting out loud 5 seconds it is 6.8. I am so tired right now, spent the weekend at the peewee b provincials with my friend anouncing and too much concession food.
My friend who loves fish is coming over tomorrow so ill see what she thinks. I sorry to bother you with this,i really am.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Pearl2011 said:


> Maybe i didnt shake it long enough or put in enough or too many drops, but in a better light after counting out loud 5 seconds it is 6.8. I am so tired right now, spent the weekend at the peewee b provincials with my friend anouncing and too much concession food.
> My friend who loves fish is coming over tomorrow so ill see what she thinks. I sorry to bother you with this,i really am.


You are not bothering any of us, no fear of that.

Just don't jump into something. I know what it is like to suddenly discover something and want to immediately "fix" it. But chances are, the change was relatively gradual, and the fish have adjusted. Until everything connected to the issue is recognized, it is risky to start fiddling with this or that. And especially when it comes to water parameters. There are many factors that impact the chemistry of aquaria water, and making even a slight change to one can significantly alter others. What has occurred naturally is usually not as much trouble.

Byron.


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## Pearl2011 (May 21, 2012)

I just feel bad about so many posts . . .
Byron, i messed with pH once becuase I thought it was a bit high for my bettas. The next day, Ruby, who is a dark beautiful red, her fin were see through and she was orange/yellow. Never added pH+/- again. The other fish were really dull and Dawn looked like a swimming zebra. O_O
I set up the quarantine today, will test it once I find the kit. Cant remember where I put it. <-- Fail, I know. 

Would rummynose tetras work in the set-up? My friend has one and I am trying to convince her to give it to me.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Pearl2011 said:


> I just feel bad about so many posts . . .
> Byron, i messed with pH once becuase I thought it was a bit high for my bettas. The next day, Ruby, who is a dark beautiful red, her fin were see through and she was orange/yellow. Never added pH+/- again. The other fish were really dull and Dawn looked like a swimming zebra. O_O
> I set up the quarantine today, will test it once I find the kit. Cant remember where I put it. <-- Fail, I know.
> 
> Would rummynose tetras work in the set-up? My friend has one and I am trying to convince her to give it to me.


They are lovely fish, need soft slightly acidic water to be at their most colourful. And a group, this fish is better with a larger group. Check the profile, this would most likely be the Brilliant Rummy Nose Tetra; the False RN is rare. I have both in my 115g, 23 of them, and what a sight as they swim as a shoal from end to end.


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## Pearl2011 (May 21, 2012)

She knows they need a school but she doesn't have enough room in the tank and has never had that much luck with them. There is a school of head and light tetras (and he does swim with them, sometimes) so he does have another schooling fish. I pester her about it whenever were doing fish stuff.
She did say she knows he would have a good home if she gave him to me. That made me so happy


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## Pearl2011 (May 21, 2012)

Out of Whiptail Catfish, BN plec and twig catfihs, who eats the most algae, who has the smallest biolaod, biggest and smallest size and life span?


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## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Pearl2011 said:


> Out of Whiptail Catfish, BN plec and twig catfihs, who eats the most algae, who has the smallest biolaod, biggest and smallest size and life span?


Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.
I'd rate algae eating like this Farlowella>BN>whiptail
Farlowellas are vegatarians, BN mainly vegetarian, and whiptails are omnivores.

Whiptails and Farlowellas have a small bioload. They are long, but very skinny. BN have more bulk. Hard to pinpoint the longest and shortest without knowing the exact species.

No idea on the lifespan. Farlowellas are the most sensitive to water chemistry of the three.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I concur with what blackwaterguy posted, and will only add on the lifespans. Some of this is in our profiles... Farlowella vittata probably up to 15 years, Rineloricaria parva probably 5-8 years. And Bristlenose (Ancistrus sp.) up to 12 years.

The Bristlenose will make a much greater impact biologically. For their length, the other two are _very_ thin.

Byron.


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