# I need advice/help. I'm frustrated and want to quit.



## OSagent23 (Feb 10, 2013)

Hello all,

I need some help here as I have tried everything to fight algae all over my aquarium. I have green spot algae, black beard algae and green hair algae. The GSA is all over the aquarium glass and substrate as well as the GHA. The BBA is all over the gravel. It almost looks like a carpet. I have a 75 gallon aquarium with only 51 fish all small guys. Neons, celestial danios, cherry barbs, harlequin rasboras etc.. Based on the one inch per gallon rule I'm under stocked at 62 gallons. 
I also have cherry shrimp, obet's, CBS, CRS, Amano and bamboo shrimp. 
I have a long finned Pleco and a clown Pleco who love munching on my driftwood. I also have about 4 - 5 otto's who are constantly munching on the algae. 

My aquarium parameters are as follows:
Ammonia - 0ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm
Nitrate - 15 - 20ppm
Phosphates - 0ppm
Ph - between 6.5 and 7.0 ppm

My tank is heavily planted and I have a 10lbs CO2 canister that pumps 2-3bps that immediately starts as soon as the lights come on and then turns off at 9pm. According to my drop checker my CO2 levels go from blue to green at roughly between 2 - 3pm and maintain that till the timer shuts off the CO2. My CO2 is diffused into the aquarium using a reactor that i built inline with my fluval 406 filter. I also have an aquatop 10watt uv sterilizer inline to my canister filter. I do 20 - 25% water changes every Friday religiously and I use RO water because my tap water has 2ppm chloramine. 

I use 2 48" finnex ray 2 LED lights. One turns on at 10am and turns off at 9pm. The second light turns on at 1pm and turns off at 10pm. I used to have the lights on for only 7 hours a day but it just made the algae worse and the plants seemed to die off rather quickly. 

I dose with flourish 2 times a week, flourish excel every other day, flourish trace 2 times a week. My substrate is seachems flourite capped with white gravel. There are 3 large pieces of driftwood in the aquarium. 

My plants are about 15 - 20 different species. All ranging from greens to reds. I will name them all if I have too. 

I have tried the double doses of excel, using H2O2, limiting light for only 5 hours for 2 weeks, I've tried black outs, this is making me insane with confusion. Honestly I've been fighting it so long that I want to give up. It's frustrating. I've never had an algae issue this bad before. 

Any and all advice is welcome. Please help.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

As soon as you said "my tank is heavily planted", you lost me as I am not a plant person. BUT, in a round about way that might be the problem. There's obviously an imbalance in your tank that is producing the algae. As for the BBA on the gravel - just remove The gravel. I don't know of anything that really eats it, and it's impossible to get off. You're better off getting new substrate in my opinion.

I've had larger aquariums stocked with lots of small fish, and while many may think that 50 fish in a 75 is a lot, I certainly do not. Almost everyone will tell you how the inch per gallon rule is nonsense, and in many situations it is. You will hear "a 10 inch goldfish can't live in a 10 gallon", like that means anything. Of course it can't - that's applying the rule to a situation it is not meant for. The rule is meant for small fish. In my experience, stocking small fish by that guideline is actually a bit conservative. I've stocked tanks one fish per gallon, of small (~2 inch) schooling fish. That all being said, the inch per gallon rule has many limitations, and it's important for new fish keepers to learn them and adjust accordingly. In a way it's a rite of passage.

Your stock is not your problem - your problem has to do with keeping the plants. Unfortunately that's where my help ends. I'm sure one of our plant nuts will be able to dissect it for you and figure out where the imbalance is, whether its on the fertilizer side, or the lighting side, or whatever. A small tidbit about lighting I've picked up along the way - how old is the bulb? Often people wait till the bulb burns out before they replace it, but what can happen is that an old bulb does not produce the same spectrum of light that it once did, and algaes thrive on certain wavelengths. Just a shot in the dark really, but I thought I'd share.

Good luck.


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## MoneyMitch (Aug 3, 2009)

What type of light do u have I'm on my phone so it's hard to go into detail but sounds like a nutrient balance possibly macros flourish is mostly micros and there may be a abundance thus causing the algae 




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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

You are only using RO water, are you adding anything to bring the hardness up? RO is going to be near 0dGH and plants need from 5dGH and up. It could easily be that the plants are not able to use the nutrients (macro and trace) that you are adding so the algae is taking off as it will use them. It's all about balance.

If your hardness is being supplemented and is Ok then how long did you try any of the fixes?

2ppm chloramine is normal and most people have that in their water. A product like Prime (treats up to 4ppm based on the suggested dose) will treat that and the water is fine, in fact I would suggest that the treated water is better than the RO water due to the probable hardness in the tap water... but you need to know what it is.

Jeff.


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## OSagent23 (Feb 10, 2013)

MoneyMitch said:


> What type of light do u have I'm on my phone so it's hard to go into detail but sounds like a nutrient balance possibly macros flourish is mostly micros and there may be a abundance thus causing the algae
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I use 2 finnex ray 2 LED lights, both lights are 7000k lights. Right now starting today I am using only one. I know that to much light is one of my problems.


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## OSagent23 (Feb 10, 2013)

JDM said:


> You are only using RO water, are you adding anything to bring the hardness up? RO is going to be near 0dGH and plants need from 5dGH and up. It could easily be that the plants are not able to use the nutrients (macro and trace) that you are adding so the algae is taking off as it will use them. It's all about balance.
> 
> If your hardness is being supplemented and is Ok then how long did you try any of the fixes?
> 
> ...


Wow, I didn't know that 2ppm chloramine is normal. I lived in Hawaii and Miami and there water doesn't have that much chloramine. I'm in San Diego now. I do add tap water to bring the hardness up. Whenever I do a water change I add of 2 maybe 3% tap to dilute the chloramine. I ran out of prime. Planning on buying some this weekend. Do you think I should use just straight tap water or half tap half RO?


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

is your CO2 levels constant? fluctuating levels usually promotes algae growth rather than deter it. A local hobbyist had a fine collection of algae in his tank until he managed to get the CO2 under control. then the algae simply died off naturally.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

OSagent23 said:


> Wow, I didn't know that 2ppm chloramine is normal. I lived in Hawaii and Miami and there water doesn't have that much chloramine. I'm in San Diego now. I do add tap water to bring the hardness up. Whenever I do a water change I add of 2 maybe 3% tap to dilute the chloramine. I ran out of prime. Planning on buying some this weekend. Do you think I should use just straight tap water or half tap half RO?


What is the GH of your tap water? You can ascertain this from the municipal water sujpply, we just need to know the number. This is as someone suggested a major factor in the balance of nutrients/light. The "hard" minerals which are macro-nutrients are not sufficient in preparations to compensate if they are not in the source water.

Chloramine is easily handled with planted tanks, by using a conditioner at each water change that detoxifies it and then the system takes over.

Something else I spotted, stop using the Excel, on top of diffused CO2 this is going to affect things. I know Excel sometimes kills brush algae...but not always as Seachem themselves say, and given its toxic nature I would not use it. One less chemical going into the soup.

Can you post a photo of the entire tank? Photos tell us a lot.

Byron.


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## MoneyMitch (Aug 3, 2009)

im going to have to stick by whats been said here already, but would also like to bring up once more that the flourish macros you are giving are not enough (idk if you are using RO water or not since you haven't stated.) the lack of enough macros and not enough hardness is causing a problem with the plants. ive heard of others using seachems equilbreium in high tech EI setups to fix the hardness issue. maybe try there? 

once you get your hardness to where it should be then I would look into some stronger macros (dry ferts) N P and K. with these changes you should notice a positive difference in the plants and new growth. in my experience algae can take advantage of anything excess but certain types prefer certain excesses. after switching to some stronger macros then I would look into the micros and trace.

the brush algae that has accumulated thus far wont ever go anywhere - nothing eats it that I know of so you will have to manually remove it. now u mention you have algae everywhere didn't catch if you said it was growing on plants or not? 

some pictures and closeups will help with some ideas to get you on track. sorry your in this mess I went through a stent of algae about a month ago. the problem pops up fast but takes months to correct its frusterating but a very strong sense of accomplishment once you get it taken care of.

one other thing is the excel - I too went to excel to help with my situation, it helped somewhat but also melted a few of my plants (some melting of certain plants nobody would of thought would happen to) as Byron said this could be contributing to some plant issues too. 

hang in there!


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## fish monger (Dec 29, 2011)

The first thing that struck me was using Excel and injecting CO2. That's a double dose that could be causing problems. Secondly, the use of RO water. As others have said, your tap water can be easily treated and it doesn't take anything special to do it. Most conditioners will handle it. I'm not convinced that light is your problem. Too much carbon and the RO are where I'd direct my attention first. Best of luck.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

Others have mentioned more than I would start out with... but then again I haven't seen algae yet and my tank is pretty much as low tech as it gets.

You need to know the hardness of the tap water so you can figure out how much you want to cut in or of you can use it straight up. The fish that you listed are not needing terribly soft water so you might find that just treating the water and using it might work just fine... it would certainly be easier and cheaper. If so, you can just start using it for water changes... add prime to treat the tank volume, about a cap and a half or so, and fill from the tap.

You already cut the light, harder water will help the plants, if you drop all CO2 and let this become a low tech tank for a while the changes will be easier to manage. This can avoid doing anything with the ferts except adding a comprehensive trace type which will help.

Eventually the algae will subside and some, as mentioned, you may have to remove.

Good luck with whatever things you do try.

Oh, and post some pictures, it helps get a handle on some things that might not be really apparent in a description.

Jeff.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

OP's shrimps are gh/kh/ph fussy >.< if they're in the same tank...


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

Shrimps need some hardness too... although I don't know what some of those are, I sort of missed them in the read. Wouldn't RO water reduce their exoskeleton to mush eventually?

Jeff.


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## OSagent23 (Feb 10, 2013)

aokashi said:


> is your CO2 levels constant? fluctuating levels usually promotes algae growth rather than deter it. A local hobbyist had a fine collection of algae in his tank until he managed to get the CO2 under control. then the algae simply died off naturally.


My CO2 level is always constant. I haven't messed with it since I set it up. I did change it once from a regular glass diffuser to a reactor which I built. That was the only change.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

Eh, I can't find the RO information but I'm assuming that the the OP is using RO to mix their own water. RO by itself is pretty unhealthy >.<


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

aokashi said:


> Eh, I can't find the RO information but I'm assuming that the the OP is using RO to mix their own water. RO by itself is pretty unhealthy >.<


_"I do 20 - 25% water changes every Friday religiously and I use RO water because my tap water has 2ppm chloramine."_

It's tucked in the OP.

Jeff.


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## MoneyMitch (Aug 3, 2009)

stronger macros and seachems equilibrium >.> I always read about RO high tech Co2 people going this route maybe look up Tom Barr?


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## OSagent23 (Feb 10, 2013)

Byron said:


> What is the GH of your tap water? You can ascertain this from the municipal water sujpply, we just need to know the number. This is as someone suggested a major factor in the balance of nutrients/light. The "hard" minerals which are macro-nutrients are not sufficient in preparations to compensate if they are not in the source water.
> 
> Chloramine is easily handled with planted tanks, by using a conditioner at each water change that detoxifies it and then the system takes over.
> 
> ...


The GH here in Linda vista San Diego is 263ppm according to the municipal water supply report. Is that pretty high or normal? 

Byron, I will take your advice and stop using the excel. I was told to use excel with a syringe and put it right on the BBA. should I try this method?


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## MoneyMitch (Aug 3, 2009)

you should pick one route/plan of action and stick to it and see it through. don't expect results within a week or two its going to take some time and a lot of it if your tank is covered. first get everything planned out that your going to change pick a method and go with it. 

goodluck MM -out


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

OSagent23 said:


> The GH here in Linda vista San Diego is 263ppm according to the municipal water supply report. Is that pretty high or normal?
> 
> Byron, I will take your advice and stop using the excel. I was told to use excel with a syringe and put it right on the BBA. should I try this method?


That's almost 15dGH which is hard. I expect that you will probably want to cut it half and half with RO or whatever ratio gives you the hardness that you end up needing. A lot of city water supplies are softer than that.

Jeff.


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## OSagent23 (Feb 10, 2013)

Here are some pics of the BBA,GSA and GHA

You can see the GSA all over the gravel with the BBA and the GHA on the glass. It is on the leaves and plants but my camera is not good at taking a picture of it.


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## OSagent23 (Feb 10, 2013)

Some more pics. I don't understand why they are coming out side ways, lol


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

MM, I've heard of that too.
Well the amount of H2O2 required to kill algae usually kills off crs/cbs...
not sure about oebts.


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## OSagent23 (Feb 10, 2013)

Here is the GHA it's all over the glass but this was the best angle I could get to see it via picture.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

> The GH here in Linda vista San Diego is 263ppm according to the municipal water supply report. Is that pretty high or normal?


As Jeff has already said, this is "fairly hard," to use a subjective term from my article on GH. Mixing RO in with this certainly won't hurt the fish mentioned initially, and so long as it is not sufficient to bother the shrimp. And it will still leave sufficient hard mineral for the plants.



> Byron, I will take your advice and stop using the excel. I was told to use excel with a syringe and put it right on the BBA. should I try this method?


I have read that this can kill the BBA. This is the only algae I have as a nuisance, and I control it with light and nutrients in balance. Given the extreme toxic properties of Excel--you do know it is glutaraldehyde and water, and the glutaraldehyde is a powerful disinfectant used to sterilize in hospitals, in anti-freeze, in embalming fluid, etc that carries cautions for humans?--I would not put it anywhere near the inside of a fish tank.

Byron.


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## OSagent23 (Feb 10, 2013)

MoneyMitch said:


> stronger macros and seachems equilibrium >.> I always read about RO high tech Co2 people going this route maybe look up Tom Barr?


Moneymitch,

Can you recommend some macros? What does seachems equilibrium do?

Byron, no I didn't know excel had all those chemicals in it. Wow, I won't use it at all from this point on.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

OSagent23 said:


> Moneymitch,
> 
> Can you recommend some macros? What does seachems equilibrium do?


We now know you don't need Equilibrium. I use this to raise the "hard" minerals as I have near-zero GH in my tap water and this is insufficient calcium, magnesium, etc for plants. But the earlier data on your fairly hard GH resolves this question.

As for macros, this is a possibility. Thinking here mainly I assume about nitrogen--ammonium from ammonia is the primary source, from fish respiration and organics breakdown by bacteria in the substrate. There is also phosphorus, and potassium. Phosphorus may be in your tap water, and it is added via fish foods. Potassium also in the tap water, and in Flourish.

I personally would be careful jumping forward here; the balance is out, we know, but doing too much without sufficient time for what is being done to take effect is only going to worsen things. My general approach in such situations is to cut back the unnecessary or problem additives, ensure the remainder are in balance reasonably, and then give the system a couple weeks. I would also do a major clean at the start of this, by which I mean just removing as much algae as you can (like from all the glass).


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## OSagent23 (Feb 10, 2013)

Byron,

I've limited my light to just one fixture for 6 hours a day instead of both fixtures, stopped using excel, and reduced some of the ferts I've been putting in. 

I tried to see if phosphates or potassium is in my water supply by looking at the report but couldn't find if those two are in it. Is there another way to tell. I test for phosphates in my tank and I get zero for results. 

I've also gone in and manually removed as much BBA as I could out of the aquarium. Should I just let the things I've done play out for a week or so to see what happens? Do you recommend anything else?


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## MoneyMitch (Aug 3, 2009)

Byron said:


> We now know you don't need Equilibrium. I use this to raise the "hard" minerals as I have near-zero GH in my tap water and this is insufficient calcium, magnesium, etc for plants. But the earlier data on your fairly hard GH resolves this question.
> 
> As for macros, this is a possibility. Thinking here mainly I assume about nitrogen--ammonium from ammonia is the primary source, from fish respiration and organics breakdown by bacteria in the substrate. There is also phosphorus, and potassium. Phosphorus may be in your tap water, and it is added via fish foods. Potassium also in the tap water, and in Flourish.
> 
> I personally would be careful jumping forward here; the balance is out, we know, but doing too much without sufficient time for what is being done to take effect is only going to worsen things. My general approach in such situations is to cut back the unnecessary or problem additives, ensure the remainder are in balance reasonably, and then give the system a couple weeks. I would also do a major clean at the start of this, by which I mean just removing as much algae as you can (like from all the glass).


keeping what you have stated in perspective here i am going to have to respectfully disagree. he says he is using pressurized Co2 high light and pre mixed fertilizer. the amounts of macros N,P and K that are mixed within most premixed liquid ferts such as flourish comp in this case is minimal. 

my theory is his plants are burning through the macros faster then he is adding them. and with using the flourish comp and flourish trace he is adding a tonf of micros there. i cant see the plants using all thoce micros without comparable macros. from my algae that you helped me with Byron trace and light intencity were my issues (too much of them) since switching some things and stopping the addition of micros and trace and sticking with tabs and comp fert i haven't had a algae outbreak since.

P.S to OP load the pic into paint and rotate it, my pics do the same thing,.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

perhaps the water changes are throwing the CO2 levels out of whack. I've seen BBA thrive in really low light, I'm not sure if a black out will do it. it often doesn't  is it possible to just cover the affect area with something (like a large bottle with the bottom cut off) and inject H2O2 to just that area.... 
then siphon this out later...
for H2O2 to work, you'll need to keep the lights on for treatment...

I think I have an idea for the BBA on the substrate. let me draw it up for you in a sec...


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

OSagent23 said:


> Byron,
> 
> I've limited my light to just one fixture for 6 hours a day instead of both fixtures, stopped using excel, and reduced some of the ferts I've been putting in.
> 
> ...


One problem for me is not knowing exactly what the light output is; that is what comes of not knowing about the fixture you have. I did a Google and up popped all sorts of lights. Can you give me a link to some data for the one you have?

On the phosphates or potassium, don't bother. Continue the Flourish Comprehensive twice a week, and Flourish Trace once. No Excel. Continue CO2 during lights on period.

I may have more when I know more about the light, as this is all about balance.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

MoneyMitch said:


> keeping what you have stated in perspective here i am going to have to respectfully disagree. he says he is using pressurized Co2 high light and pre mixed fertilizer. the amounts of macros N,P and K that are mixed within most premixed liquid ferts such as flourish comp in this case is minimal.
> 
> my theory is his plants are burning through the macros faster then he is adding them. and with using the flourish comp and flourish trace he is adding a tonf of micros there. i cant see the plants using all thoce micros without comparable macros. from my algae that you helped me with Byron trace and light intencity were my issues (too much of them) since switching some things and stopping the addition of micros and trace and sticking with tabs and comp fert i haven't had a algae outbreak since.
> 
> P.S to OP load the pic into paint and rotate it, my pics do the same thing,.


Understood, but he is reducing the light. And, it is often suggested in such cases to go "down" and slowly work back up.


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## OSagent23 (Feb 10, 2013)

Byron, my light fixture is the 48 inch long one. Here is the web link for it. They are dual HO 7,000k, 39w lights. I used 2 fixtures. Now I'm only using one starting today. 

AquaVibrant

Also I don't have flourish comprehensive. I have flourish trace, flourish and flourish excel. I don't have the comprehensive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

OSagent23 said:


> Byron, my light fixture is the 48 inch long one. Here is the web link for it. They are dual HO 7,000k, 39w lights. I used 2 fixtures. Now I'm only using one starting today.
> 
> AquaVibrant
> 
> ...


Good, thanks. Taking their data as accurate, one of these fixtures is equivalent in output to three T5 tubes, presumably HO. That is a lot of light. I'm not surprised you have all this algae;-), it is going to be difficult to balance that light without going with dry ferts daily.

BTW, your "Flourish" is probably the *Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium* to give it the full name. "Flourish" is the large name with the rest below it on the bottle.

You are able to use only one of the two lights, so that is good. Follow my other suggestions--no Excel, Flourish Comp once weekly, Flourish Trace once, and CO2 diffusion with the light period. I would probably cut back the Flourish Comp from twice to once now that I know more about the light.

Give this 2-3 weeks. If the plant growth begins to really degenerate, up the Flourish Comp to twice weekly, but keep a close eye out for b rush algae increasing.

Byron.


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## OSagent23 (Feb 10, 2013)

Byron, I will follow your direction to the letter. Right now I feel dumb, lol. I do have flourish comprehensive. My bad, everyone is allowed a moment of being dumb. 

I have gone into the aquarium and tried to manually remove as much BBA as I could and toss it out. I will post any new news or updates in a week or so to let everyone know how it's going. 

I added a power head to add some water circulation into the aquarium. It seems I've had a few areas where there have been dead spots with no circulation at all. 

Thanks for the help everyone. You guys are awesome and have reassured me that I can control this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MoneyMitch (Aug 3, 2009)

algae is a real pita and everyone has opinions on what causes it and how to get rid of it byron put it in perspective by saying to start slow then ramp up. always better to do things that way and wow that is some extreme light XD. 

just one of the many hurdles your gunna jump with high tech ^^ it gets a lot easyier after you find the balance. each system is different and finding the balance is really hard with certain setups I feel your pain.


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## OSagent23 (Feb 10, 2013)

Byron,

I wrote your directions on the side of my aquarium with an expo dry erase marker. That way I can follow without any issues. Also posted the date so I can remember when I started the new measures.


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## MoneyMitch (Aug 3, 2009)

ahem... try the rotate option in pant 

*turns tablet right side up*


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

Instructions mon the side of the tank... Great idea when you are doing something out of the ordinary or short term.

On the sideways pics... I think that if you turn your camera sideways to take your shots in "landscape" format that they will show up here right side up. Mine do that sometimes and that is typically what is up so I just do all my tank shots landscape now. Either that or I ram them through Paint like Mitch says and rotate them... I need to shrinkify them anyway so it's only an extra click.

Jeff


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

I looked at the lighting that you have there... althought yours are 48", if I used their 24" fixture to have a comparable size, they would produce about 2.5 times the light that my fixture does... And you have two of them.... 5 times the light levels.

That's a lot of light.

Jeff.


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## OSagent23 (Feb 10, 2013)

JDM,

That was one of my mistakes, I got over zealous with the aquarium one day and went a little over board. I'm learning from LED lights as I go. We didn't have that kind of lighting when I was a kid or teen with aquariums. It's my first time having LED lights.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

I am looking to upgrade now, my 8 watt LED over a 37 gallon is great for crypts and java fern and lots of medium light plants but I want to have more surface plants so I need more light to get enough to the bottom. I'm just in the middle of a debate over the next size up options and seeing your setup might help.... I would would offer to take one of those fixtures off your hands if you end up with only one long term but it's larger than I need.

Jeff.


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## OSagent23 (Feb 10, 2013)

Update

To Byron especially and everyone else who chimed in to assist me with my huge algae issue that was driving me insane. 

First to Byron, you are the man! Following your instructions to the letter in as little as 5 days almost 70 to 80% of the GHA is gone. It has either died and withered away or my otos have munched it. The GSA is completely gone off the aquarium glass but some still remains on the gravel. The BBA is still there but the fight continues. 
The live plants seem to be doing well still, I am watching them. 

To everyone else that pushed me to keep going forward and continue the fight when I wanted to quit, gave me tips on what i should do and discussed with me what needed to be done. I want to thank you all. I appreciate everything fellow tropical fish keepers. Thank you.

The aquarium is looking better than ever before.


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## MoneyMitch (Aug 3, 2009)

bba will stay there till u take it out but glad to hear everythings cleared up!!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I do like success stories.:greenyay: And thanks for the kind words.

As Mitch said, brush algae will not go away, and nothing will eat it (nothing you have), but that's fine; the goal is to have it not increasing, and that stage is success. The leaves with brush algae may slowly yellow and die, and can be removed as new growth free of algae appears.

Green spot algae won't go away unless you remove it, which is easier off the glass. The trick with this is not to let it start, as it is just "there" in some tanks regardless of other factors. I can see this in my two largest tanks of 7, but only if I fail to clean the front glass at every water change. Even if I see nothing, I run one of those aquarium sponge scrapers over the entire inside front glass, and some of the side glass, during the water change.

Byron.


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## OSagent23 (Feb 10, 2013)

I did have to start dosing some phosphorous and potassium in the aquarium. I am dosing very little at the moment. I'm noticing browning and yellowing of new growth. I read on it, a good friend also told me lack of those two nutrients as suggested on here as well. We will see in the next week or two what happenes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MoneyMitch (Aug 3, 2009)

MoneyMitch said:


> keeping what you have stated in perspective here i am going to have to respectfully disagree. he says he is using pressurized Co2 high light and pre mixed fertilizer. *the amounts of macros N,P and K that are mixed within most premixed liquid ferts such as flourish comp in this case is minimal. *
> 
> my theory is his plants are burning through the macros faster then he is adding them. and with using the flourish comp and flourish trace he is adding a tonf of micros there. i cant see the plants using all thoce micros without comparable macros. from my algae that you helped me with Byron trace and light intencity were my issues (too much of them) since switching some things and stopping the addition of micros and trace and sticking with tabs and comp fert i haven't had a algae outbreak since.
> 
> P.S to OP load the pic into paint and rotate it, my pics do the same thing,.


not saying I told you so but....


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## OSagent23 (Feb 10, 2013)

Yeah, you told me so, LOL. I accept that. Live and learn, thank you for the advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OSagent23 (Feb 10, 2013)

Moneymitch, I tested my water for phosphates right out of the tap. I didn't even register as far as any amount of phosphates at all. Absolutely zero phosphates. I also did a little research and after a few phones calls and long wait times. The water supply company for my area also told me that there is very little potassium in my tap water. 

What I've learned. Macro/micro nutrients have to be thought if in tap and aquarium water when it comes to having a lush, algae free aquarium. Dose the correct amounts and monitor everything. Fish, plants, shrimp, algae. To much light, ferts and CO2 is not a good thing. 

Thanks to everyone here I have slowly but surely figured out how to do all this properly to achieve that natural beautiful look we all hope to get. 

It's still a work in progress. Manual removal of BBA helps, it's a daily progress. The rest is all balance and patience.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

OSagent23 said:


> I did have to start dosing some phosphorous and potassium in the aquarium. I am dosing very little at the moment. I'm noticing browning and yellowing of new growth. I read on it, a good friend also told me lack of those two nutrients as suggested on here as well. We will see in the next week or two what happenes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Be careful here. Phosphate should not have to be added to any aquarium with fish, as even with minimal feedings there will be more than enough for plants. The "average" aquarium can have phosphates in the range of 1 to 3 mg/liter (= ppm), while natural waters contain something in the region of 0.005 to 0.02 mg/l, which is certainly sufficient for plants. I've never used a phosphate test kit, so I've no idea how accurately they measure. But I do know that in more than 20 years I have never added phosphates and I certainly have no issues. My tap water is so nutrient-poor it is almost RO.

As for potassium, the amount in prepared fertilizers shoud be sufficient in natural (low-tech) systems. Now, I realize you are using diffused CO2 [I assume this is still running], but as i said previously (I think) changes have to be given time to work. It has only been less than one week since drastic changes were made (half the light, etc) and I would give the system 2-3 weeks minimum before jumping to conclusions. And everytime you start adding something else, you are throwing the balance off yet again. This is where alge has an advantage.

I wuld like to see a photo of the new leaf growth, as it may be something entirely different.


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## OSagent23 (Feb 10, 2013)

Byron,

I will add pictures of the new leaf growth later today. The steams of the new leaf growth are very brown and almost transparent as if the plants are dying. There are a few other plants that growth well but they start to fade away. The colors fade and the leafs, stems almost turn transparent. you can see right through them.

I will hold of dosing anything that you have not recommended and will give the system the 2-3 week period that it needs. The CO2 system is still runnning.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

OSagent23 said:


> Byron,
> 
> I will add pictures of the new leaf growth later today. The steams of the new leaf growth are very brown and almost transparent as if the plants are dying. There are a few other plants that growth well but they start to fade away. The colors fade and the leafs, stems almost turn transparent. you can see right through them.
> 
> I will hold of dosing anything that you have not recommended and will give the system the 2-3 week period that it needs. The CO2 system is still runnning.


This could be the result of the changes. But the photos will tell us more; one of the tank overall, and one (or more) of the leaf issues. When you post them, just so we have everyting in one spot, include the current light (duration and intensity), and all fertilizer supplements being added.


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## OSagent23 (Feb 10, 2013)

Here are the pictures of what the plants are doing, the browning and transparent look, also some pin sized holes.


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## OSagent23 (Feb 10, 2013)

Picture number 2


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## OSagent23 (Feb 10, 2013)

Picture number 3


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## OSagent23 (Feb 10, 2013)

Picture number 4


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## OSagent23 (Feb 10, 2013)

Picture number 5


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## OSagent23 (Feb 10, 2013)

Picture number 6


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## OSagent23 (Feb 10, 2013)

Here is the overall tank

Lighting intensity is 1 48" Finnex ray 2 LED dual 7,000k on for only 8 hours a day.

Dosing:
CO2 8hours a day. On 1 hour before lights are on and off 1 hour before lights are off
Flourish comp once a week at 7ml
Flourish trace once a week at 20ml
Water changes once a week at 10 - 15 gallons. Dosed with prime. 

I only dosed flourish potassium and flourish phosphorus once.


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## MoneyMitch (Aug 3, 2009)

doesn't the prime lock up the nutrients from the plants for 48hrs? i don't use any conditioner and never have in a planted tank. others will disagree with me here but a penny saved is a penny saved.

pretty tank btw


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

In the photos I see nothing that would make me think there is a potassium deficiency. I still think this is a reaction to the dramatic change last week. For instance, you can expect crypts to melt when anything this substantial occurs.

Byron.


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## fish monger (Dec 29, 2011)

You have a beautiful tank. Maybe give it some more time and see if there is improvement in the new leaf production and health.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

Great looking tank.

I think Byron has it, a little melt... OK, maybe a lot of melt. Just watch for new growth and as long as it is green and healthy, the old stuff may just die off. I've been lucky and had none of this other than a few high light plants in my low light tank.

I will say that sometimes vals do this out of the blue and as long as it's not all of them at once and some are fine, you can discount it. Just nip the ends off.



MoneyMitch said:


> doesn't the prime lock up the nutrients from the plants for 48hrs? i don't use any conditioner and never have in a planted tank. others will disagree with me here but a penny saved is a penny saved.
> 
> pretty tank btw


From the site:

_" It will also detoxify any heavy metals found in the tap water at typical concentration levels."_

I don't know if that renders them inaccessible to plants to use, makes them harder to use or does nothing as far as plants are concerned. I wouldn't use fertilizers for a day or two after a change just in case but if it locked them up away from the plants ability to use them for only 48 hours it really won't affect anything in the long term.

Jeff.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

JDM said:


> From the site:
> 
> _" It will also detoxify any heavy metals found in the tap water at typical concentration levels."_
> 
> I don't know if that renders them inaccessible to plants to use, makes them harder to use or does nothing as far as plants are concerned. I wouldn't use fertilizers for a day or two after a change just in case but if it locked them up away from the plants ability to use them for only 48 hours it really won't affect anything in the long term.


When I questioned Seachem directly on this issue, they responded that Prime detoxifies heavy metals so it will negate these in Flourish Comprehensive if added simultaneously. Heavy metals being trace minerals like iron, copper, zinc, nickel, manganese. Seachem suggested waiting 24-48 hours after using Prime before adding Flourish.

I add Flourish the morning after the water change day. I've no idea if the conditioner is still effective or not, and some say this is unnecessary, but I'm in the habit now. BTW, I do not use Prime, but Nutrafin Aqua Plus since that does all I need; it also detoxifies heavy metals, but presumably for no longer than other conditioners like Prime.

Byron.


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## fish monger (Dec 29, 2011)

I use API Ammo Lock in some of my tanks which supposedly doesn't lock up nutrients (other than ammonia) and add the Seachem Flourish Comp at the same time. This works best for me due to my schedule and deteriorating memory. Actually, I haven't noticed any difference in my current results than I did when I was using traditional conditioner and adding the Flourish Comp at the same time. Also, I treat some tanks with the Ammo Lock and some with API Tap Water Conditioner. Again, no noticeable difference. When the Ammo Lock runs out, I intend to use the regular Tap Water Conditioner. It goes a lot farther as a much smaller dose is needed and it is cheaper initially also. These are only my results and I would suggest research and experimentation to make sure what works best for you.


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