# So undecided



## woodenchef (Apr 9, 2007)

Hello everyone, I am picking up a 100G aquarium tonight (I am a noob to this) and would like a nice colorful array of tropicals eventually. The possibilies seem endless but looks like a lot of fun, designing, and picking out your fish.

I would like maybe 2 schooling types of fish and a few other brightly colored fish. I don't know where to start, I did take a look at the compatiblity chart but still at a lost as to what to get.

What type of community fish do you have living in perfect harmony

 

Thanks for your feedback in getting me started


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## mysticevils (Apr 9, 2007)

A lot of tetras are very passive. Cardinals, Neons, and Rummynose all seem to get along very well with each other in my experience (and are very attractive), as do the more popular danios.


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## jones57742 (Oct 31, 2006)

woodenchef

This may be an excellent thread for a "sticky".

Successful fish keeping (ie. having happy fishies or for that matter live ones) is not as simple as one might believe (ie. set up you tank, install the equipment, add water and fish).

If you are purchasing your aquarium from an LFS (local fish store) or a chain instead of "picking up your aquarium tonight" IMHO I would list the type of aquarium, the type of stand and the equipment which they are proposing to sell you in the next post and let the members of the forum provide you input.

The following link is a good place to start on cycling a tank (the first step in establishing a healthy environment for you fish):
http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/biologicalcycle/a/nitrogencycle.htm

TR


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## woodenchef (Apr 9, 2007)

Thanks, I purchased a corner type unit (was used and it only had coral in it, will need to give it a good cleaning. There is still salt residue), 100G with 4' twin flouresant lights. It is more triangular in area then it is in height. That is all I have at the moment which leads to my next question?

I assume will need a heater, filter (looking at the new fluval, any good or should I look for something else???), and will I need some sort of aerator like a power head or just one that blows bubbles? Pet store said some fish don't like the current powerheads produce, and well of course gravel and decorations


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## jones57742 (Oct 31, 2006)

woodenchef

I did not realize that you were talking about a saltwater setup.

I am completely useless here but there are several real saltwater guru's on the forum who will be able to help you.

TR


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## woodenchef (Apr 9, 2007)

Hi, I am talking about freshwater. The person who used to have aquarium had salt water coral, but I am setting up for freshwater.

Sorry for the confusion!!!


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

woodenchef said:


> The person who used to have aquarium had salt water coral, but I am setting up for freshwater.


Welcome.:wave:

Don't use the coral in a freshwater tank. Coral skeletons are often calcerous and can increase the pH of your water. It will be very unfortunate if the fish you picked prefer soft acidic water. Furthermore, corals don't make your tank natural. No coral skeletons can be seen in a freshwater biotope more than the oceans and seas.

Good luck.


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## jones57742 (Oct 31, 2006)

I would very much like to help you in your endeavor but some of what you need I am not familiar with and a picture of your aquarium might be of some help also.

In this post I am also asking for some additional information (but I am trying to not overwhelm you with this request).



woodenchef said:


> Thanks, I purchased a corner type unit (was used and it only had coral in it, will need to give it a good cleaning.


Might I suggest that after you have everything you believe to clean that you clean again with a mild chlorine solution for final disinfection.



woodenchef said:


> ... 100G with 4' twin flouresant lights. It is more triangular in area then it is in height.


If you are contemplating live plants in your tank (which I have for the extreme aesthetics which they provide) then
1) Please look on the bulbs and the ballast for descriptions including one which will be a number followed by the letter K and post your findings.
2) Your next decision will be "what you will put" in the bottom of your tank. I have laterite and gravel and a laminate thereof but many folks use a colored natural gravel or artificial gravel with tab fertilizers.



woodenchef said:


> I assume will need a heater ...


Yes and the following two threads may be of some help
http://www.fishforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=3468&highlight=heat
http://www.fishforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=3077&highlight=heater



woodenchef said:


> I assume will need a ... filter (looking at the new fluval, any good or should I look for something else???) ...


The two most common types of filtration equipment are HOB (Hang on Back) and cannister. [Biowheels are also becoming popular but are probably not feasible for your corner aquarium).
Another type of filtration equipment is termed wet/dry. IMHO (In My Humble Opinion) the wet/dry is the best but many, many folks will disagree and this filtration equipment is not typically recommended for folks who are first time fish keepers.
As you have purchased a "corner aquarium" I assume that if is a fairly nice aquarium which you will place in a corner and which has a tank which is supported by an enclosed stand.
I therefore believe that you will want cannister filtration as the cannister will be concealed by the enclosed stand.
My system is wet/dry but I do have very, very limited experience with cannister filtration which I employed for a brief period as tertiary filtration.
The filter which I used was an Eheim and I had good luck with it.
The following threads may be of some help in your procurement decision.
http://www.fishforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=5370&highlight=cannister
http://www.fishforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=5835&highlight=cannister+filter
http://www.fishforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4574&highlight=cannister
http://www.fishforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4748&highlight=fluval
*Please note that many members of this forum believe that the actual filtration provided by a cannister filter is approximately 50% to 75% of the rated filtration.*



woodenchef said:


> ... and will I need some sort of aerator like a power head or just one that blows bubbles?


The following is a recent thread concerning aeration.
http://www.fishforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=5856&highlight=



woodenchef said:


> Pet store said some fish don't like the current powerheads produce ...


Yes but some fish do (ie. Plecos). 
The procurement determination of a powerhead should be based on the fish which you will ultimately stock.

Please post additional questions based on this post.
Also was the link to tank cycling beneficial?

You will be perfoming 25% weekly WC's (Water Changes) during and subsequent to cycling. You might consider this factor in the placement of your aquarium.

TR


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## woodenchef (Apr 9, 2007)

thanks for all the info, i just went out and bought a eheim rated for 100g are you saying i should have bought something say rated for 150g if filteration is only 50 - 75%

Will a weak bleach solution be benificial in cleaning old salt residue???

I will send pics soon, yes it sits on a enclosed cabinet


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## jones57742 (Oct 31, 2006)

thanks for all the info, i just went out and bought a eheim rated for 100g are you saying i should have bought something say rated for 150g if filteration is only 50 - 75%

Yes or preferably 200G. 


Will a weak bleach solution be beneficial in cleaning old salt residue???

No.
The only things of which I am aware which will remove the salt residue is a good brush, hot water and elbow grease.
The mild chlorine solution is a "just to make sure its all gone" disinfectant.


I will send pics soon, yes it sits on a enclosed cabinet.

Thanks

TR


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## woodenchef (Apr 9, 2007)

*Cycling*

I am now in the cycling phase, I picked up a Eheim professional II canister filter rated for 150G. My tank is 100G, the problem is all these mico-bubbles coming out of the discharge part, it looks terrible. If I had fish in there I would not be able to see them. Why is this? Is this only because the cycling process is happening? I am not using fish, Al's gave me this solution in a bottle which I add on the 1st, 7th, and 14th days

When i filled tank i measured this plus the dechlorinator correctly. Anyone have any ideas how to get rid of all these????


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## leifthebunny (Mar 13, 2007)

I've got two tanks on the Ehiem Pro II. Make sure that your waterline is above the filter output, and you probably want to point the heads down so not to cause too many ripples in the surface. The more bubbles the filter outputs, the more get sucked in to the input. Also, you might want to turn down the speed for a bit and shake the cannister gently to make sure that all of the air gets worked out of the system. One of my tanks still generates a lot of bubbles, but it is pushing a high rate for the tank and I don't mind the bubbles in this tank.


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## woodenchef (Apr 9, 2007)

Pump is setup like you say, I am not talking about a few bubbles but basically half the aquarium is covered in this bubble mist under the water (only way to explain). 

Would the new water conditioner and bacteria additives added to water also play some sort of role in this (i hope) because i will need to do something with Ehiem otherwise. It looks terrible


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## leifthebunny (Mar 13, 2007)

Did you recently do a large water add recently? Also, are the bubbles sticking to the sides or does it just look cloudy from teh amount of bubbles? Do they go away after some time when you slow the water rate down?


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## woodenchef (Apr 9, 2007)

It is a new aquarium, i just started cycling, all the water is new. It's not the bubbles stuck to gravel and sides of aquarium, i figure these will go away in time

These bubbles are coming from the output spout on the filter, water is very clear except for all the micro bubbles which then make things hard to see.


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## jones57742 (Oct 31, 2006)

I am not familiar with bacteria additives but if by water conditioner you mean what I term dechlorinator then no: the air bubbles are emanating from your pump system.

As I have limited experience with my Eheim I did not post previously but you might try (which is what I did):

Place the pump in something which will hold water (I used a styrofoam box).
Get the pump primed and going.
Loosen the lid enough to let water start coming out and then reset the lid.
Repeat the process (as best I remember took me two times) until no air is observed in the return line to the tank.

The second time I installed the Eheim I could not get the above to work but it is way simpler than what I did the second time so hopefully it will work for you.

TR


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## woodenchef (Apr 9, 2007)

I will give the a shot, it works for my pool pump to get air out why not a aquarium pump

 

The other thing i noted with this new Ehiem is it just stops pumping and then i need to prime it again and it starts working. Maybe there still is too much air in there somewhere. I would'nt think the air in system should stop the pump all together though?


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## jones57742 (Oct 31, 2006)

woodenchef said:


> I would'nt think the air in system should stop the pump all together though?


Oh yea!!

This phenomenon is referred to as cavitation and cavitation will turn the motor into a crispy critter.

TR


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## woodenchef (Apr 9, 2007)

So if pump is stopping then this must be the major cause of the bubbles. I will try to correct ASAP by removing lid to try and rid the air, I am sure shorter lines would help too but i don't want them to short. Pump now is under cabinet in front of door with easy access and well within the 180cm range from surface water to base of filter as they suggest. Is has a self prime but i can still see air so maybe lid trick will work.

I did turn the pump off before i left for work this morning because when i woke up and checked it it was again not pumping. I was worried i fried the motor as it was a bit warm not sure when it stopped. But i primed and it started so i unplugged and left it.


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## woodenchef (Apr 9, 2007)

woodenchef said:


> So if pump is stopping then this must be the major cause of the bubbles. I will try to correct ASAP by removing lid to try and rid the air, I am sure shorter lines would help too but i don't want them to short. Pump now is under cabinet in front of door with easy access and well within the 180cm range from surface water to base of filter as they suggest. Is has a self prime but i can still see air so maybe lid trick will work.
> 
> I did turn the pump off before i left for work this morning because when i woke up and checked it it was again not pumping. I was worried i fried the motor as it was a bit warm not sure when it stopped. But i primed and it started so i unplugged and left it.


Got me thinking and I might know what the problem is (my hypothesis at the moment) and will check this first. I bought one of those textured backgrounds and had cutout a recess for the input side which i am thinking is possibly restricting the suction. The front intake of basket is clear but sides and back are resticted do to textured background and side and back glass. Wish i had a picture, easier to explain


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## leifthebunny (Mar 13, 2007)

I had this problem and rather than draining the water, kept priming the pump and it eventually got running Also, the amount of bubbles in the water doesn't help the condition, so turning down the speed should also introduce less bubbles into the system.


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## jones57742 (Oct 31, 2006)

I am not trying to cause you problems here Woodenchef but only to help.

I would very strongly recommend not cutting your intake and return lines.

If you look on the lines you will see that their size is Metric (probably 9MM).

If you ever need them the length they are now you will be making a trip to Lowe's in order to procure two adapters (reducers) and 8" of a larger size line and then however many feet you need of the closest "English equivalent" diameter to the existing lines.

Then when you get home I would recommend clearing out the wife and kids (if any of these) due the verbiage associated with the pleasure of getting the Metric size line onto the English size adapter where it will remain affixed. (this Southern Engineered system will also reduce the efficiency of your pumping system due to the expansion and contraction losses through the reducers and the 8" patch line)

TR


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## leifthebunny (Mar 13, 2007)

leifthebunny said:


> I had this problem and rather than draining the water, kept priming the pump and it eventually got running Also, the amount of bubbles in the water doesn't help the condition, so turning down the speed should also introduce less bubbles into the system.


Well, I thought my issues were over. I'm still getting a lot of air when I turn the pump on full blast. After looking at the intake line, I see that there is a lot of incoming air and was told by my lfs that this is actually from the intake having a leak somewhere. You might want to make sure everything is screwed in tight and there are no leaks.


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## leifthebunny (Mar 13, 2007)

leifthebunny said:


> leifthebunny said:
> 
> 
> > I had this problem and rather than draining the water, kept priming the pump and it eventually got running Also, the amount of bubbles in the water doesn't help the condition, so turning down the speed should also introduce less bubbles into the system.
> ...


Ok, finally resolved my issues. I'm sure this time. In an effort to make sure everything was tight, I pushed the intake pipe on too tight. Aparently, there are a pair of grooves that break the seal if the intake is pushed on to the bracket too hard.


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## woodenchef (Apr 9, 2007)

I fixed my problem also with all the micro-bubbles (cut hoses shorter and made them run in a more staighter fashion). Now, BAH I have what looks like thousands of little white particles floating around in the water and also a foamy like substance on top of water. I am in my third day of cycling, is this normal?


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## jones57742 (Oct 31, 2006)

No: it is not normal
BUT
these types of problems frequently cure themselves with time.

How are you cycling your tank?

TR


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## woodenchef (Apr 9, 2007)

It looks like it was still too much air, it looked like little white particles but it must have been them micro-bubbles still. I had my output pointed down so i changed the direction to point outwards just skimming the surface like a little wave. Water is now clear.

I am using this bio-support and condioner that I got from the LFS. Guy said i can put fish in in 24hrs. It has been cycling since Thursday and I just checked the water using a dye kit, it shows 0 nitrite and 0 ammonia.

Do you think its safe to add fish? I am thing of adding the following starting with the following 9 - livebearers and adding next batch once a week there after, it's a 100G corner type aquarium



9 - livebearers (platys)
9 - tertras
2 - kissing gouramis
2 - blue gouramis
2 - honey gouramis
2 - loaches (the ones i seen were like a little eel i liked with stripes foget the name)


Will this be too much or should it work?


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## woodenchef (Apr 9, 2007)

*New aquarium pic*

It's not the best picture but here is link to my new setup

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/woodenchef/detail?.dir=/697are2&.dnm=dd6dre2.jpg


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

woodenchef said:


> I am using this bio-support and condioner that I got from the LFS. Guy said i can put fish in in 24hrs. It has been cycling since Thursday and I just checked the water using a dye kit, it shows 0 nitrite and 0 ammonia.


What the guy said sounds like a lot of waffle to me.:roll: Is the dye kit a test kit with test strips?:? If so, an API Freshwater Master liquid test kit is recommended, not that one. Test strips do not give accurate results. How about your nitrates? At this point, it is likely to be zero. Tank has not cycled with zero ammonia and nitrites. Ammonia must spike followed by nitrites in a few days and finally, nitrates.

I am glad you asked before you could add fish. Many a hobbyist ended up killing all their fish after adding them immediately in the tank which has not finished cycling, thanks to the ' correct information' by lfs employees. Cycling does not take place in 24 hours. It takes plenty of time and patience.


> Do you think its safe to add fish? I am thing of adding the following starting with the following 9 - livebearers and adding next batch once a week there after, it's a 100G corner type aquarium
> 
> 9 - livebearers (platys)
> 9 - tertras
> ...


Your stocking list may need adjustment. Ditch the kissing gouramis. They grow to 12 inches at most which gives them the chance to harass other fish in the future.

What tetras are those? There are several tetras available and vary in sizes. Tetras thrive better in soft, acidic water which is most likely to become the platies' problem. I'd suggest ditching the platies from the list. Other options are harlequin rasboras, praecox rainbows, threadfin rainbows(I cannot suggest this unless tetras planned are not generally nippy), apistogramma, blue rams, keyholes, hengeli rasboras, cherry barbs, etc.

If I may make a suggestion, I prefer the elegant pearl gouramis compared to the drab blue gouramis.:mrgreen: Oh well..Blue gouramis are common and mostly wild-caught because they're native here anyway.:roll: Honey gouramis are also great choices.:thumbsup: White cloud mountain minnows and hatchetfish are also good choices for surface dwellers.

The loach you are referring to is a _Pangio kuhli_. They love the company of their own. In a 100 gallons, you can fit almost 15 kuhlis in that. Cories, otos and true Siamese Algae Eaters are also good options. SAEs eat hair algae quite diligently whereas otos consume diatoms.


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## woodenchef (Apr 9, 2007)

Thanks for the advice on choosing my fish. The kit I am using uses the dye drops (not the strips). It still shows 0 - ammonia and 0 - nitrite, this bio-support conditioner was suppose to kick start the cycle with introduced bacteria. This is why I am wondering why both readings still show zero now on the fourth day (should spike not be happening). I have double-checked the instructions for testing water and am adding correct amount of drops per water. 

My daughter is going to be upset, this kissing gourami is her favorite.


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

What brand of test kit were you using? Have you checked the expiration date if available? Expired test kits give inaccurate results. Check nitrates as well.

Unfortunately, we have to face the truth that kissing gouramis do not suit well in community tanks espcially when they grow to 30 cm at most. Pearl gouramis, on the other hand, show elegance so your daughter might like them.


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## jones57742 (Oct 31, 2006)

Blue has given you some very good input.

Thanks for the photograph. The tank is different from the typical "corner aquarium" which will help if those are "live plants". If they are not and your daughter sees an aquarium with live plants then IMHO "welcome to the world of planted tanks".

Trash can LFS's thinking (I say this because he is so far off on cycling that he may have said other words which are just as far off).

The products which you are describing come in two forms:

The first has ammonia and nitrite in the solution.
This product is intended to shorten the cycling process by several days to a week as it eliminates the time period required to create these compounds in the tank water by several days to a week. The product is intended for use in a "fishless" cycle.

The second is purported to have live ammonia and nitrite digestion bacteria in the solution. IMHO these products are a scam as the bacteria needs a nutrient source in order to maintain life and how can this nutrient source exist in a sealed bottle (simple explanation: long one is very long).

The concept of cycling is simple (hopefully the link which I originally posted helped).
The cycle is intended to produce ammonia and nitrite digestion bacteria in the biological filtration media in your filter.

As you said daughter I feel that "time to see fishies" may be involved here and as such you might try the following (I am assuming that you used dechlorinator when you first filled your tank and the water temperature in your tank is 78F):

1) use your test strips to insure that the ammonia and nitrite concentrations in the water are 0 or very minimal values (A).

2a) purchase the platies and tetras and put them in the tank (B).

2b) I can also recommend the procurement of 7 Corydoras Sterbai.
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/species.php?species_id=316
These fish will
a) help with maintenance by scavenging on the bottom and
b) more importantly keeping your daughter entertained with their antics.

3) Feed the fish flakes (my flake food staple is TetraMin Tropical flakes) at the rate of 2 teaspoons per day (C).

4) Report back to us in a week the ammonia and nitrite concentrations in your tank.

Additional Items

i) I did not observe any oxygen bubbles in the photograph. As you are generating turbulence on the water's surface via the return flow from your filter you may not need additional oxygenation but then again too you may in the long term and your daughter might enjoy the air bubbles.
I can recommend air diffusion strips along the side of the tank or an air diffusion disk at the middle of the rear tank wall (I have both).

ii) Without floating vegetation your daughter will soon be observing "the big platties" eating all the "baby platties.

iii) Get your daughter prepared as the cycling process will take 21 to 28 days and until cycling is completed I cannot recommend the addition of other fish.

iv) Has your daughter seen any angel fish (as your tank appears to be 24" or 30" deep)? She might enjoy these fish as well as watching them grow.


(A) If you have not already purchased test strips IMHO you might consider purchasing a liquid test kit: I use the TetraTest kit.

(B) Many thoughts are set forth in the literature and posts on this forum as the best way to do this. The concepts extend from "a 20 day quarantine" to "rip open the bag and pour the fish and water in".
The two methods which I have employed include placing the bags in the tank water for an hour (temperature adjustment) and then
(1) cutting the top off the bag and gently pouring the fish and water in the tank or
(2) Gently pour the water and fish into a vessel, dip the fish out with a net and place them in the tank.

(C) Your daughter will enjoy this part! One teaspoon in the morning and one teaspoon 20 minutes before lights out. (this protocol can easily be varied to conform to your schedule.)

TR


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## woodenchef (Apr 9, 2007)

Thanks for all your insight, it's helped greatly. 

As for the oxygen the output of the pump / filter is pointed outwards just below the surface of the water creating turbulence on the surface. I also have a bubble curtain happening in the back corner which did not show up in the photo.

I am testing the water with the master mini dye test kit made by nutrafin which expires in over a year. It does not test for nitrates though, I will pick one of these up today.

This kit tests ammonia, nitrite, PH low/high, carbon, and general hardness.


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## jones57742 (Oct 31, 2006)

I appreciate you posting back (sometimes all this time is spent and it seems like it goes into a black hole)!

I try to keep the nitrates below 20 (actually 15 when possible).

Unless your tap water is high in nitrates their concentration should not be an issue until subsequent to cycling.

Once again please post after a week and let us know how you are doing.

TR

BTW: the air bubbles have little effect on the oxygenation of the tank water.
Oxygen is transferred to the water at the surface.
Turbulence of the surface increases the rate of this transfer.


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## woodenchef (Apr 9, 2007)

*my water levels*

Been cycling my tank for 2 weeks now (100G) with the following:

2 - Gold gourami's
9 - Danios 
2 - clown loaches
12 - platies

I tested my levels and things seem to be progressing really slow???

ammonia = 0
nitrate = 0
nitrite = less the 0.3
PH = 7.6

I have not made a water change yet either since ammonia and nitrite have never spiked. Should I add more fish to get this process moving along.

I also had 2 dead fish in there for over a week which I have since found and was able to get out.

Note: these fish died because they became stuck behind the background of the aquarium which I have since blocked off.


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## leifthebunny (Mar 13, 2007)

With 100g and only 25 fish (assuming still fairly small), you might not get giant spikes. I did the same with a 90g and tetras & barbs and it wasn't until the last week that I started getting a real noticable spike in Nitrites. Even then, it never got above .5ppm. As you have .3ppm Nitrites, give it a bit longer.


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## jones57742 (Oct 31, 2006)

*Re: my water levels*



woodenchef said:


> I tested my levels and things seem to be progressing really slow??? ...I have not made a water change yet either since ammonia and nitrite have never spiked. ... Should I add more fish to get this process moving along.
> ...


No they are not.
You are doing good!!
As I indicated in other posts you may not see detectable concentrations rise.
The ammonia and nitrite digestion bacteria have become established in your biological filtration media and their population is growing.

IMHO I would "give it" one more week (ie. 21 days from the induction of the fish) and then:
do a 25% water change
add 25% more fish.

TR

BTW: How is your daughter enjoying "her fishies"?


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## woodenchef (Apr 9, 2007)

Thanks, daughter loves the fish. Every morning she does a head count before feeding and will sit in her little chair in front of aquarium and just watch and watch.



PS I thought ammonia should rise before nitrite, I have tested the water regularly with dye drops and ammonia is always at 0

I did add some bio-support at the beginning maybe this is more of a ammonia stabilizer then anything else.


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