# Complicated Cycling Situation



## rolo (Mar 25, 2012)

Hi all. This my first post on here, but I doubt it will be my last. I am also fairly new to the hobby, starting just before the new year. Okay well let me explain my situation...

First off, yes I initially opted for the fish in cycle as opposed to the fishless cycle...yes yes I know big idiot and I regret it. Now, I am at my 3 month mark. Up until 1 week ago I HAD 3 Pearl Danio's when 2 of them decided to eat the other one and then go mental, which resulted in me returning the remaining 2 to the aquarium store. So now I'm sitting here, 3 months after starting with my 10 gallon tank, still with an uncycled filter. My readings are:
Ammonia: 0.50ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 5.0ppm
which are also the same exact levels of my tap water. When I had the fish in I was doing 2-3 water changes a week and still kept getting the same readings. So basically my question is, and I think I know the answer but wanted to ask some veterans to clarify, whereabouts in the fishless cycle do I proceed from? I'm pretty sure I need to start from the beginning, using fish food as a source of ammonia.

Also, rougly how many fish food flakes are a good amount for a 10 gallon tank?

Any help and advice is truly appreciated. Thanks.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

First thing, welcome to Tropical Fish Keeping forum.:-D

Now, there are two methods to cycle (other than using fish), one is the so-called fishless cycle, the other which I prefer is by using live aquarium plants. I can go into the latter in detail if you ask, but for now I'll refer you to an article (by another forum member) on cycling that will help you generally and with the fishless method if that is your choice; this article is actually a sticky at the head of this section but here's a link:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...inners-guide-freshwater-aquarium-cycle-38617/

Byron.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

rolo said:


> Hi all. This my first post on here, but I doubt it will be my last. I am also fairly new to the hobby, starting just before the new year. Okay well let me explain my situation...
> 
> First off, yes I initially opted for the fish in cycle as opposed to the fishless cycle...yes yes I know big idiot and I regret it. Now, I am at my 3 month mark. Up until 1 week ago I HAD 3 Pearl Danio's when 2 of them decided to eat the other one and then go mental, which resulted in me returning the remaining 2 to the aquarium store. So now I'm sitting here, 3 months after starting with my 10 gallon tank, still with an uncycled filter. My readings are:
> Ammonia: 0.50ppm
> ...


Hey Rolo, welcome to the forum.

Your tank has been set up for 3 months and it has not cycled yet? I would assume you have had some issues with ammonia/nitrite right? If this is so and you still have everything running and the danios are gone then you still have a cycled tank. Although you shouldn't be getting ammonia readings.

Do you have real plants? If not I would suggest getting them, they look beautiful and are magnificent for your fish and cycling issues. You can read about it in the guides. Java Fern, Hornwort and Java Moss are 3 good low light plants and dont require too much (although hornwort is messy).

The plants will help adsorb any ammonia making your fish happier.

For your selection of fish:

Byron: Do you know that link to the thread of all good fish for micro aquariums. It has a list of all good fish for 1-5-10-20 and more gallon tanks? I cant find it. If you can post that here for him he might enjoy that


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

> Byron: Do you know that link to the thread of all good fish for micro aquariums. It has a list of all good fish for 1-5-10-20 and more gallon tanks? I cant find it. If you can post that here for him he might enjoy that


It was a thread in Freshwater Aquarium, here it is:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-aquarium/nano-fish-96186/

Some of these require soft water, others are fine in medium hard or hard, so that needs to be known too. Several are in our profiles.


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## rolo (Mar 25, 2012)

Termato said:


> Hey Rolo, welcome to the forum.
> 
> Your tank has been set up for 3 months and it has not cycled yet? I would assume you have had some issues with ammonia/nitrite right? If this is so and you still have everything running and the danios are gone then you still have a cycled tank. Although you shouldn't be getting ammonia readings.
> 
> ...


Thanks guys I appreciate the responses. Which of those plants would be the smallest? Also, when it comes to stocking it, when I do, I am planning on 6-8 different guppies.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

rolo said:


> Thanks guys I appreciate the responses. Which of those plants would be the smallest? Also, when it comes to stocking it, when I do, I am planning on 6-8 different guppies.


The names shaded, which means they (the plants) are included in the profiles, so info on their size will be there.

On the guppies, all males? Or male/female? With livebearers, it is better to have either all male (no fry issues) or if mixed have 2-3 females per male to avoid stress on the females by the males. And with both male/female, you will have hundreds of fry every couple months, and that can be problematic.;-)


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## rolo (Mar 25, 2012)

Byron said:


> The names shaded, which means they (the plants) are included in the profiles, so info on their size will be there.
> 
> On the guppies, all males? Or male/female? With livebearers, it is better to have either all male (no fry issues) or if mixed have 2-3 females per male to avoid stress on the females by the males. And with both male/female, you will have hundreds of fry every couple months, and that can be problematic.;-)


I was thinking 2 males and 6 females. But back to my first post, why am I still getting that 0.50ppm of ammonia? My nitrites are 0ppm and my nitrates are at 5.0ppm which from what I've read is a healthy number. Why won't my ammonia hit 0? I am also using the API Freshwater Test Kit. And it's weird because 0.50ppm ammonia is also the reading of my tap water.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

rolo said:


> I was thinking 2 males and 6 females. But back to my first post, why am I still getting that 0.50ppm of ammonia? My nitrites are 0ppm and my nitrates are at 5.0ppm which from what I've read is a healthy number. Why won't my ammonia hit 0? I am also using the API Freshwater Test Kit. And it's weird because 0.50ppm ammonia is also the reading of my tap water.


unless you want to get another tank or sell your fish I would not recommend getting males. Live bearers are overwhelming. They reproduce like wild fire.


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## rolo (Mar 25, 2012)

Termato said:


> unless you want to get another tank or sell your fish I would not recommend getting males. Live bearers are overwhelming. They reproduce like wild fire.


Would you recommend all males or all females?


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

rolo said:


> Would you recommend all males or all females?


Females. The males will be more likely to fight one another.

The thing is when you buy them...their usually already pregnant...unless you get them real small.


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## rolo (Mar 25, 2012)

Termato said:


> Females. The males will be more likely to fight one another.
> 
> The thing is when you buy them...their usually already pregnant...unless you get them real small.


If they are pregnant, will they eat their fry?


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

After 3 months your tank should be well cycled. But since your tank water continues to test the same as your tap water, it suggests you just might be unknowingly doing something that interferes with beneficial bacteria colony development. 
What do you have for a substrate?
What kind of filter do you have?
Do you have any bio-media in the filter?
How are you servicing the filter? Are you careful not to use tap water for filter components?
Are you using a good conditioner for water changes that ensures no chlorine is getting into the system?


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## rolo (Mar 25, 2012)

AbbeysDad said:


> After 3 months your tank should be well cycled. But since your tank water continues to test the same as your tap water, it suggests you just might be unknowingly doing something that interferes with beneficial bacteria colony development.
> What do you have for a substrate?
> What kind of filter do you have?
> Do you have any bio-media in the filter?
> ...


Substrate=gravel
My filter is a Marineland Bio-Wheel Power Filter Penguin 100(filters 100 gallons per hour)
Filter has a bio-wheel which I've never touched
Yes pure tap water has never touched my filter. Either dirty tank water or dechlorinated tap water.
I use Big Al's Water condition. Big Al's is the name of the aquarium store.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

rolo said:


> If they are pregnant, will they eat their fry?


It doesn't matter if they are pregnant. If the fry are small enough the mothers will eat them.

What I do is just put hornwort or some kind of stem plant floating on the top so the fry can hide. the more hiding places, the more chances they have to live. They will resort to hiding in the gravel...and nearly anywhere to stay alive...sometimes causing their own deaths. Fry are complicated and are a pain. They grow up quick if you feed them...and they over populate you in a matter of months...unless you sell them.


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## rolo (Mar 25, 2012)

Termato said:


> It doesn't matter if they are pregnant. If the fry are small enough the mothers will eat them.
> 
> What I do is just put hornwort or some kind of stem plant floating on the top so the fry can hide. the more hiding places, the more chances they have to live. They will resort to hiding in the gravel...and nearly anywhere to stay alive...sometimes causing their own deaths. Fry are complicated and are a pain. They grow up quick if you feed them...and they over populate you in a matter of months...unless you sell them.


Thanks.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

rolo said:


> I was thinking 2 males and 6 females. But back to my first post, why am I still getting that 0.50ppm of ammonia? My nitrites are 0ppm and my nitrates are at 5.0ppm which from what I've read is a healthy number. Why won't my ammonia hit 0? I am also using the API Freshwater Test Kit. And it's weird because 0.50ppm ammonia is also the reading of my tap water.


Quickly on the livebearers, I would only have males, they are more colourful. Females will be impregnated by males very early on unless they are separated soon by the breeder.

To the ammonia. You said earlier that your tap water has .5 ammonia, so that is where it is coming from. When this occurs, the ammonia should disappear after a couple days because the bacteria will take it up and plants will assimilate it even faster if you have live plants. The initial influx of ammonia at the water change can be handled by using a water conditioner that detoxifies ammonia. Big Al's does not; it only detoxifies chlorine and chloramine. There are several conditioners that handle ammonia, they will say so on the label. However, my first recommendation would be to get some live plants, particularly floating plants. They use a lot of ammonia as their nitrogen source, and with only .5 ammonia in the tap water sufficient plants should manage to deal with this within a day.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

Byron said:


> Quickly on the livebearers, I would only have males, they are more colourful. Females will be impregnated by males very early on unless they are separated soon by the breeder.
> 
> To the ammonia. You said earlier that your tap water has .5 ammonia, so that is where it is coming from. When this occurs, the ammonia should disappear after a couple days because the bacteria will take it up and plants will assimilate it even faster if you have live plants. The initial influx of ammonia at the water change can be handled by using a water conditioner that detoxifies ammonia. Big Al's does not; it only detoxifies chlorine and chloramine. There are several conditioners that handle ammonia, they will say so on the label. However, my first recommendation would be to get some live plants, particularly floating plants. They use a lot of ammonia as their nitrogen source, and with only .5 ammonia in the tap water sufficient plants should manage to deal with this within a day.


I'd listen to him lol. Thanks Byron!


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

As Byron suggests, ammonia in your tap water will show up if you test after a water change. Instead of big al's conditioner (nothing against big al) I suggest you use Seachem Prime as in addition to handling chlorine and chlormine, it detoxifies ammonia, nitrtites and nitrates as well as heavy metals for 24 - 48 hours (which typically gives your beneficial biology time to process).


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## rolo (Mar 25, 2012)

Byron said:


> Quickly on the livebearers, I would only have males, they are more colourful. Females will be impregnated by males very early on unless they are separated soon by the breeder.
> 
> To the ammonia. You said earlier that your tap water has .5 ammonia, so that is where it is coming from. When this occurs, the ammonia should disappear after a couple days because the bacteria will take it up and plants will assimilate it even faster if you have live plants. The initial influx of ammonia at the water change can be handled by using a water conditioner that detoxifies ammonia. Big Al's does not; it only detoxifies chlorine and chloramine. There are several conditioners that handle ammonia, they will say so on the label. However, my first recommendation would be to get some live plants, particularly floating plants. They use a lot of ammonia as their nitrogen source, and with only .5 ammonia in the tap water sufficient plants should manage to deal with this within a day.


Thanks a lot Byron. I will pick up a live plant tomorrow and see if I can find a better conditioner as well.


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## rolo (Mar 25, 2012)

Also, would you guys recommend I get something to make my water not cloudy?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

rolo said:


> Also, would you guys recommend I get something to make my water not cloudy?


No. Many so-called clarifiers work by binding microscopic particulate matter into larger particles so they can more easily be removed by the filter media. But these chemicals also bind the fish's gills causing severe stress. The answer to cloudy water is to track down the cause and fix that.

It is normal to have cloudiness in a new tank, this can last from a day or two to several weeks. It will be whitish, and usually due to a bacterial bloom. It should be allowed to clear on its own.

Some substrates can cause cloudiness. And it can come from the tap water, this would show up right after a water change.

If it is green it could be "green water" which is caused by unicellular algae.

There are safe ways to deal with some types of cloudiness, using diatom and specific filter media for example.

The above is in general. A photo or description might help us sort out the cause.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

rolo said:


> Also, would you guys recommend I get something to make my water not cloudy?


Water Changes of at least 50% or more. Use Seachem Prime. 

Putting more chemicals isn't necessary.

BUT as Byron states in this case:



> It is normal to have cloudiness in a new tank, this can last from a day or two to several weeks. It will be whitish, and usually due to a bacterial bloom. It should be allowed to clear on its own.
> 
> Some substrates can cause cloudiness. And it can come from the tap water, this would show up right after a water change.


Therefore just wait or post a picture.


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## rolo (Mar 25, 2012)

I'm pretty positive it's coming from my filter cartridge...it looks like little particles from the cartridge. Because whenever I do a water change, the water is clear, and then when I turn on my filter again, all the cloudiness comes pouring out. I'm just wondering if I'm supposed to change my cartridge...but everywhere I read, it says never to replace any filter stuff...?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

rolo said:


> I'm pretty positive it's coming from my filter cartridge...it looks like little particles from the cartridge. Because whenever I do a water change, the water is clear, and then when I turn on my filter again, all the cloudiness comes pouring out. I'm just wondering if I'm supposed to change my cartridge...but everywhere I read, it says never to replace any filter stuff...?


What type of filter? Filter media must be rinsed whenever necessary to keep it reasonably free of clogging matter that will make it less effective. Rinsing and replacing are two different things; media need not be replaced unless it no longer performs its task. The exception is chemical media, such as carbon, which will become less effective as it adsorbs more and more, and will need replacing as rinsing willnot clear it.


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## rolo (Mar 25, 2012)

Byron said:


> What type of filter? Filter media must be rinsed whenever necessary to keep it reasonably free of clogging matter that will make it less effective. Rinsing and replacing are two different things; media need not be replaced unless it no longer performs its task. The exception is chemical media, such as carbon, which will become less effective as it adsorbs more and more, and will need replacing as rinsing willnot clear it.


No my filter is not a carbon filter, and yes I do rinse it every once in a while, which seems to minimize the cloudiness after being rinsed, but it never goes away completley.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

rolo said:


> No my filter is not a carbon filter, and yes I do rinse it every once in a while, which seems to minimize the cloudiness after being rinsed, but it never goes away completley.


I read back through this thread to refresh my memory on the issues, and spotted something. Are you still using Big Al's conditioner? This can (often) cloud the water for a day or more after every water change. I was using this product recently and found this out, and have come across this online too. I've no idea of the cause, and it seems harmless, but all my tanks would cloud up the day following every water change, and usually cleared by the day following that, sometimes two days after. I used it up and am now on another product with no cloudiness.


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## rolo (Mar 25, 2012)

Byron said:


> I read back through this thread to refresh my memory on the issues, and spotted something. Are you still using Big Al's conditioner? This can (often) cloud the water for a day or more after every water change. I was using this product recently and found this out, and have come across this online too. I've no idea of the cause, and it seems harmless, but all my tanks would cloud up the day following every water change, and usually cleared by the day following that, sometimes two days after. I used it up and am now on another product with no cloudiness.


But the thing is that I have not done a water change in almost 2 weeks and it is still cloudy.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

rolo said:


> But the thing is that I have not done a water change in almost 2 weeks and it is still cloudy.


I think that is why it is cloudy.


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## rolo (Mar 25, 2012)

Termato said:


> I think that is why it is cloudy.


Regardless of how often I change or don't change my water, it is always cloudy.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Water changes must be every week, and 40-50% of the tank volume. And you are going tohave to describe the cloudiness more so we can pin it down; otherwise we are just guessing, and there are many possible causes. A photo would help.

Byron.


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## rolo (Mar 25, 2012)

Hey so I finally had the chance to pick up a live plant today and the girl at the store suggested the Anubias Bateri. She also mentioned it would be okay to bury it in my gravel, but according to the plant profile on here, it says I shouldn't. How should I go about setting it up in my tank?


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## rolo (Mar 25, 2012)

Also after I take the plant out of the plastic casing, do I have to take the wrapping around the roots off as well?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

rolo said:


> Also after I take the plant out of the plastic casing, do I have to take the wrapping around the roots off as well?


Yes, remove as much of the rock wool as you can, trying not to damage the roots.

This plant should not be buried in the substrate. The rhizome (the thick "stem" from which the leaves and the fine roots both grow) should not be buried or it may (usually) rot. Attaching the rhizome to wood or rock is best. I usually find a crevice in the wood and gently stick it in a bit, it will soon root onto the wood.


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## rolo (Mar 25, 2012)

Byron said:


> Yes, remove as much of the rock wool as you can, trying not to damage the roots.
> 
> This plant should not be buried in the substrate. The rhizome (the thick "stem" from which the leaves and the fine roots both grow) should not be buried or it may (usually) rot. Attaching the rhizome to wood or rock is best. I usually find a crevice in the wood and gently stick it in a bit, it will soon root onto the wood.


What about attaching it to one of my plastic decorations?


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## ladayen (Jun 21, 2011)

Wood is best, but it may be possible to anchor it to a plastic decoration. I have an anubias that I couldn't get to stay down so I forced it's roots through a couple holes in a plastic piece a couple inches off the substrate. The roots have grown down to the substrate now and the plant is doing quite well. Plastic is not as forgiving as the plant grows however so it is entirely possible to sever the roots at a later date.


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## rolo (Mar 25, 2012)

Okay so after having the plant in for just over a week now, I tested my water 3 days ago, the ammonia came back as 0.25, so I did a water change the next day hoping it would drop it to 0, tested my water again yesterday and the ammonia is at 0.50...?!?!?! What the heck is going on?! I don't understand the why ammonia doesn't drop. My nitrites are at 0, nitrates and 5.0, but my ammonia just won't got down! It's beginning to get a little frustrating as I want to get fish, but I can't. What am I doing wrong here? Is my test kit maybe messed up?(I use the API Freshwater Master Test Kit by the way) :---(


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

rolo said:


> Okay so after having the plant in for just over a week now, I tested my water 3 days ago, the ammonia came back as 0.25, so I did a water change the next day hoping it would drop it to 0, tested my water again yesterday and the ammonia is at 0.50...?!?!?! What the heck is going on?! I don't understand the why ammonia doesn't drop. My nitrites are at 0, nitrates and 5.0, but my ammonia just won't got down! It's beginning to get a little frustrating as I want to get fish, but I can't. What am I doing wrong here? Is my test kit maybe messed up?(I use the API Freshwater Master Test Kit by the way) :---(


This may have been covered in this thread, but have you tested the tap water for ammonia (and nitrite and nitrate, just to know)? And what if anything is going in the tank as a source of ammonia?


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## rolo (Mar 25, 2012)

Byron said:


> This may have been covered in this thread, but have you tested the tap water for ammonia (and nitrite and nitrate, just to know)? And what if anything is going in the tank as a source of ammonia?


Yes my tap water has 0.50ppm of ammonia, 0ppm of nitrite, and 5.0ppm of nitrate. And I'm not putting anything other then water into the tank...


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

rolo said:


> Yes my tap water has 0.50ppm of ammonia, 0ppm of nitrite, and 5.0ppm of nitrate. And I'm not putting anything other then water into the tank...


There's your ammonia source. As you build up the plants this will get used quickly. Anubias is a slow growing plant so that's why you're not seeing any decline in ammonia now. Some fast-growing plants like stem plants and especially floating plants will assimilate this ammonia.

Nitrate at 5ppm is not a worry, with water changes this too will not matter much with more plants.

Byron.


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## rolo (Mar 25, 2012)

Byron said:


> There's your ammonia source. As you build up the plants this will get used quickly. Anubias is a slow growing plant so that's why you're not seeing any decline in ammonia now. Some fast-growing plants like stem plants and especially floating plants will assimilate this ammonia.
> 
> Nitrate at 5ppm is not a worry, with water changes this too will not matter much with more plants.
> 
> Byron.


So everytime I do a water change, even when the plant grows bigger, I will always have the ammonia present in my tank?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

rolo said:


> So everytime I do a water change, even when the plant grows bigger, I will always have the ammonia present in my tank?


Yes, since it is in the source (tap) water. The best way to deal with this is use a water conditioner that detoxifies ammonia. They will specifically say if they do this, not all do. This detoxifies the ammonia in the tap water by turning it into harmless ammonium. Plants need ammonium so they grab it quick. Bacteria also use ammonium/ammonia interchangeably. By the time the conditioner is no longer effective, which can be 24-48 hours depending upon brand, the plants/bacteria will have taken up the ammonium. End of problem.


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## TAS4 (Apr 8, 2012)

Hi there: (Info. from a fellow-neophyte)
I have gone through similar nitrogen cycling challenges, and another point that no one has yet mentioned is that when you test your tank water ammonia will still be showing positive even when it has been converted from ammonia to ammonium by a water conditioner (I recommend Seachem's 'Prime'), as the test does not differentiate between the ammonia & ammonium.
I also suggest Seachem's 'Stability' bio culture to help boost your bacterial colony (I have tried 'Big Als' brand & did not see results from this product).
I also support recommendations about adding live plants (try Elodea - this is the one of the plant's that many suggested to me and that is easy to find in fish stores --- no need to 'plant' in gravel; it can just float in your tank)
Lastly, consider asking a friend (or a friendly staff at local fish store) for a filter media specimen (piece of sponge/drippings from a wrung-out filter sponge) from a established & stable tank. Again, this will help boost your beneficial bacteria colony, which is the object of establishing your tank and completing the initial cycling of your tank (they consume ammonia, etc. and maintain stable aquarium parameters). --- Correct me if I am wrong Byron or anyone else.
Also, I am not too tech. savvy, and I am unsure if anyone has provided a link specifically about the nitrogen cycle, role of ammonia, development bacteria colony, etc., so if someone has/can do this, this also might be of some use.
Goodluck


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## rolo (Mar 25, 2012)

Byron said:


> use a water conditioner that detoxifies ammonia





TAS4 said:


> water conditioner (I recommend Seachem's 'Prime'),


So in other words, get Seachem Prime and my problems should be solved?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

rolo said:


> So in other words, get Seachem Prime and my problems should be solved?


Yes, or any conditioner that detoxifies ammoniaq (along with chlorine and chloramine) which is all you need.


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## rolo (Mar 25, 2012)

Byron said:


> Yes, or any conditioner that detoxifies ammoniaq (along with chlorine and chloramine) which is all you need.


Thanks a bunch buddy. You're extremley helpful!


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## ladayen (Jun 21, 2011)

You will still get the same readings as before but the water will not be toxic for the fish btw. So dont freak out when you buy the Prime and are still getting ammonia readings.


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## rolo (Mar 25, 2012)

One more question lol...should I use the fertilizer I bought with the Anubias plant? It's the Big Al's fertilizer. I only ask because on its profile on here it says it doesn't need it.


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## ladayen (Jun 21, 2011)

I'd wait and see. Anubias is pretty good usually without. Keep an eye on it for discoloration or brown spots


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Yes, Anubias is a slow growing plant and thus a slow user of nutrients and low light. But as this is a new tank (I think?) I would dose the fertilizer as recommended on the bottle. There are few nutrients in new tanks. 

But on the Big Al's fertilizer, I've never used this product, but it seems to be basically a micro-nutrient source (trace minerals). If you haven't used it (opened it yet), will they allow you to return it for Flourish Comprehensive? Flourish Comp containxs other macro-nutrients that are needed too.


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## rolo (Mar 25, 2012)

Okay so after adding in the Seachem Prime just over 48 hours ago with a 60% water change, I am still getting a reading of 0.25ppm of Ammonia. This is beginning to frustrate me and I'm ready to just go ahead and buy the fish anyway. What am I possibly doing wrong? My nitrite is still at 0ppm and nitrate and 5.0ppm...but the damn ammonia won't hit 0! Ahhhhh.....!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

rolo said:


> Okay so after adding in the Seachem Prime just over 48 hours ago with a 60% water change, I am still getting a reading of 0.25ppm of Ammonia. This is beginning to frustrate me and I'm ready to just go ahead and buy the fish anyway. What am I possibly doing wrong? My nitrite is still at 0ppm and nitrate and 5.0ppm...but the damn ammonia won't hit 0! Ahhhhh.....!


You will still get ammonia readings. Prime (and most other ammonia detoxifying products) work by changing ammonia into ammonium. Ammonium is basically harmless. The API test kit (and most others we aquarists use) reads ammonium as ammonia. So having used Prime you can be assured that the ammonia is actually ammonium.

[For the benefit of those reading, I'll explain a bit further. The same thing occurs with nitrite. Prime binds the nitrite somehow, making it non-toxic. But a nitrite test will still show it as nitrite. Prime is effective for 24-36 hours according to Seachem. So within this period, any "ammonia" or "nitrite" will be non-toxic. After this period, any ammonia or nitrite showing in tests will be toxic, which is why you do alternate day water changes using Prime until you get to zero for ammonia and nitrite during cycling.]

With live plants in the tank, or in a cycled tank, by the time Prime becomes ineffective in say 36 hours the ammonium will have been taken up by the plants and/or bacteria.

Another note, if the water is acidic (pH below 7), ammonia automatically changes to ammonium so there is again no toxic effect. Plants grab it fast. And nitrosomonas bacteria will take up ammonia/ammonium, whichever is present.

Byron.


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## ladayen (Jun 21, 2011)

I originally posted this over on the Fishlore.com forums but I"m going to copy and paste it here so sorry if something seems out of place.

Prime will affect nitrite and nitrate with sufficient dosage. Even seachem doesn't understand (last time I checked anyhow) how or why this is, but many many people have reported it and seachem has been able to duplicate the results.

Prime does not change ammonia into ammonium as most people think but binds it into something else entirely. I cant recall the chemical compund formula off hand. When testing your water the chemicals in the testers break the binding and you get an accurate reading of the ammonia in the water as if the Prime were not present. Whether you test after dosing with prime or before you should get the same results.

Ammonium is only possible long term in acidic water. In a higher pH tank ammonium would nearly instantly be converted into ammonia. On the other hand ammonia is slowly converted to ammonium in acidic water. The lower the PH the more ammonia is converted. There is a limit as to how much ammonium can be stored before the rest of the ammonia just sits there.


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## rolo (Mar 25, 2012)

Byron said:


> Prime is effective for 24-36 hours according to Seachem. So within this period, any "ammonia" or "nitrite" will be non-toxic. After this period, any ammonia or nitrite showing in tests will be toxic, which is why you do alternate day water changes using Prime until you get to zero for ammonia and nitrite during cycling


I tested after 48 hours. Should I just go ahead and get the fish anyway?


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## rhymon78 (Mar 17, 2012)

rolo said:


> I was thinking 2 males and 6 females. But back to my first post, why am I still getting that 0.50ppm of ammonia? My nitrites are 0ppm and my nitrates are at 5.0ppm which from what I've read is a healthy number. Why won't my ammonia hit 0? I am also using the API Freshwater Test Kit. And it's weird because 0.50ppm ammonia is also the reading of my tap water.


Hey thought I would chip in here regarding the ammonia readings.

I also use the API master test kit, and for ages when my tank was in the is it/isnt it cycled period I was utterly confused with the ammonia readings I was getting.

I have come to the conclusion that (in my opinion) its fairly hard to read the ammonia off of the colour chart. Sometimes the test tube water looks yellow, sometimes slightly green, and when you hold the test tube just off of the card next to the colours so that you can see through it, its way lighter than if you actually hold the test tube against the card. The latter makes the colour jump up a considerable number of notches on the colour scale. I tested my water at home and read what I though was at least 0.25ppm ammonia, and out of frustration took a sample to my LFS to test also and they used a different test kit, nutrafin i think? and my water didn't register at all for ammonia on their test. I'd say (in my opinion) that if you add the drops, shake the test tube and the water looks yellowish then your good to go. 

I had the exact same issue, when I tested my tap water. That is what confused me so much. Just get some live plants, the fast growing ones and you won't have to worry about ammonia anyway. 

hope this helps 

Simon


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

rolo said:


> I tested after 48 hours. Should I just go ahead and get the fish anyway?


Yes, but few. Are there live plants?


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## ladayen (Jun 21, 2011)

With the api test you want to hold it directly against the card with a bright light behind you. With the nutrafin one it is very difficult to see any ammonia reading below .5. Despite buying a nutrafin test kit I still use the api ammonia test.


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## rolo (Mar 25, 2012)

Byron said:


> Yes, but few. Are there live plants?


I was thinking of buying 3 tomorrow and yes I have the Anubias Barteri.


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## rhymon78 (Mar 17, 2012)

ladayen said:


> With the api test you want to hold it directly against the card with a bright light behind you. With the nutrafin one it is very difficult to see any ammonia reading below .5. Despite buying a nutrafin test kit I still use the api ammonia test.


I know what you mean, I don't have a nutrafin test kit, I use API. I find that by touching the test tube directly against the card even with light behind completely changes the colour, it immediately creates a shadow and darkens the colour. But if you hold it just so it's not touching then you get a good colour match. If that is not the case then I must have a good 0.50ppm at least continually in my tank... And it's pretty heavily planted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

rolo said:


> I was thinking of buying 3 tomorrow and yes I have the Anubias Barteri.


I would get more plants first, or at least with the fish. Anubias is very slow growing and thus slow at using nutrients like ammonia. Some stem plants or floating plants are best as they are fast growing.

What type of fish?


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## fishyy (Apr 7, 2012)

get only males, theyre prettier but wont figh. Some confusion will be present because the smaller ones will try to breed with the bigger ones. 

When the filter establishes the ammonia will be converted into nitrates. Until then, do only 5-10% water changes weekly with no fish until the ammonia reads 0. Do not test after a water change because it will read the ammonia u added. When u actualy get fish, get a dechlorinater that also removes ammonia.


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## rolo (Mar 25, 2012)

Okay so tomorrow makes 1 week that I've had the 3 guppies. I did a 70% water change Wednesday night, just finsihed testing my water(Sunday morning) and I'm still getting 0.50ppm of Ammonia. Nitrite is at 0ppm and Nitrate is at 5.0ppm. I'm starting to think that the Ammonia test in my test kit is defective.....


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## mikejp67 (Mar 31, 2012)

rolo said:


> Okay so tomorrow makes 1 week that I've had the 3 guppies. I did a 70% water change Wednesday night, just finsihed testing my water(Sunday morning) and I'm still getting 0.50ppm of Ammonia. Nitrite is at 0ppm and Nitrate is at 5.0ppm. I'm starting to think that the Ammonia test in my test kit is defective.....


Your test results look like mine except I have no ammonia in my tap water. Im on week 12 or 13 and Im not sure my tank has cycled either. Not sure what size tank you have but I've got a 150 with a small population of fish.


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## mikejp67 (Mar 31, 2012)

Byron said:


> You will still get ammonia readings. Prime (and most other ammonia detoxifying products) work by changing ammonia into ammonium. Ammonium is basically harmless. The API test kit (and most others we aquarists use) reads ammonium as ammonia. So having used Prime you can be assured that the ammonia is actually ammonium.
> 
> [For the benefit of those reading, I'll explain a bit further. The same thing occurs with nitrite. Prime binds the nitrite somehow, making it non-toxic. But a nitrite test will still show it as nitrite. Prime is effective for 24-36 hours according to Seachem. So within this period, any "ammonia" or "nitrite" will be non-toxic. After this period, any ammonia or nitrite showing in tests will be toxic, which is why you do alternate day water changes using Prime until you get to zero for ammonia and nitrite during cycling.]
> 
> ...


Let me see if I understand this correctly. If the PH is below 7, I will read ammonia from my test kit but its not ammonia its ammonium? And ammonium is non-toxic to fish? So as long as my PH is below 7, my tank occupants are safe other than nitrites? 
Now, Im confused


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

mikejp67 said:


> Let me see if I understand this correctly. If the PH is below 7, I will read ammonia from my test kit but its not ammonia its ammonium? And ammonium is non-toxic to fish? So as long as my PH is below 7, my tank occupants are safe other than nitrites?
> Now, Im confused


Basically, yes...to your questions I mean, not to you being confused--though you may be that too.:dunno:

Ammonia is a form of nitrogen, as is nitrite and nitrate. Dissolved in water, ammonia has two forms: one form is un-ionized ammonia [represented in the period table of elements as NH3] and the other is the ammonium ion [NH4+]. The value reported by our test kits (all but the scientific technical type) is the sum of both forms, what we term total ammonia or simply "ammonia." The relative proportion of the two forms present in water is highly affected by pH and temperature.

Un-ionized ammonia [NH3] is the toxic form and predominates when pH is high. Ammonium ion is relatively non-toxic and predominates when pH is low. In general, less than 10% of ammonia is in the toxic form when pH is less than 8.0 pH units, but this is more than enough to affect aquatic life. This proportion increases dramatically as pH increases.

The equilibrium between NH3 and NH4+ is also affected by temperature. At any pH, more toxic ammonia is present in warmer water than in cooler water. This is another reason for maintaining the aquarium water temperature in the lower end of the preferred range for each fish species.

The chart below from AquariumWiki illustrates this; unfortunately the forum software will not allow extra spaces between text, so the chart is a bit jumbled, but you should be able to decipher it.

*% Percent of ammonia from 'total ammonia'* 
Temp C/F pH 6.5 pH 7.0 pH 7.5 pH 7.7 pH 8.0 pH 8.5 
20C (68F) 0.125 0.395 1.239 1.95 3.81 11.15 
25C (77F) 0.179 0.565 1.766 2.77 5.380 15.242 
28C (82F) 0.221 0.696 2.170 3.396 6.55 18.156 
30C (86F) 0.253 0.798 2.482 3.78 7.450 20.292 

Consequently, at the normal aquarium temperature of 77F, "ammonium" testing at .5ppm will have only .179% in its toxic form, but at a pH of 7.5 it will have 1.766% toxic. This may not seem like much of a difference, but it is.

The majority of ammonia detoxifiers, such as the conditioner Prime, detoxify ammonia by binding it such that it becomes ammonium.

Byron.


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## mikejp67 (Mar 31, 2012)

Byron said:


> Basically, yes...to your questions I mean, not to you being confused--though you may be that too.:dunno:
> 
> Ammonia is a form of nitrogen, as is nitrite and nitrate. Dissolved in water, ammonia has two forms: one form is un-ionized ammonia [represented in the period table of elements as NH3] and the other is the ammonium ion [NH4+]. The value reported by our test kits (all but the scientific technical type) is the sum of both forms, what we term total ammonia or simply "ammonia." The relative proportion of the two forms present in water is highly affected by pH and temperature.
> 
> ...


Well, that explains why I had a ammonia reading of 2.0 this afternoon and all my fish were swimming like normal. BTW, I just did a 75% WC after I saw that 2.0 reading


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