# Fishless bucket cycling...?



## Flear

aside from prime, ... 

have a bucket for water to sit while building the bacteria to process nitrites.
this is going to be time consuming for obvious reasons, at least initially.

once your display tank has all of it's good bacteria established, i think that so long as your nitrites in the water your adding to the tank don't raise it to dangerous levels, ... 

... keep prime on hand, a bit/lot of trial and error
find/pick a number you don't want your nitrites to rise above, only change enough water to keep your nitrite level below that number (max quantity for your water change)

if your 10%, or 20% or however much water you feel like changing is being met on your maintenance cycle and your still withing acceptable numbers for nitrites and such, then it not a concern, business as normal

if your finding you can only change 10% before your nitrites are what you would consider 'high' but not dangerous, then you can stick with that

changing more than whatever that number is is then going to require prime or whatever as a regular added part of your maintenance

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from what i have heard in searchings on the net.
prime is good for establishing a cycle as it adds needed bacteria to the tank to help establish safe numbers before the real bacteria have established themselves

this is because the bacteria in prime can offset the ones (species) you have in your tank

the ones from the bottle are not as strong, not as efficient, ... but still compete with what you have in your tank for food (well what these beneficial bacteria call 'food')

doesn't mean this thinking is correct, but this "could" (not will, but could) have the effect of reversing the nitrogen cycle in your tank - otherwise don't pay attention to this fear mongering.

sticking with changing enough water that your nitrites dont' reach dangerous levels is good

i don't know what is dangerous for nitrites, i don't know what is high but not dangerous or if there is such a thing. i don't know if any amount of water change from your tap is going to be too much for your tank to handle.

---

then there is prime or leaving a bucket to cycle your tap water from


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## jaysee

I don't understand what you mean by cycling water in a bucket.


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## Flear

like a tank cycle
bacteria cultures and builds that processes ammonia and nitrites (and if you have the additional parts, can process nitrates as well)

that same bacteria will grow and culture in a bucket just sitting there with water, you've already got nitrites in the water, so you don't have to worry about the stage that builds the bacteria that processes ammonia, it can immediately start to grow & culture the bacteria that will process nitrites, ... may take it a bit, may get results fast, not really sure

but that's where my thinking is for that, ... a bucket full of water, let it culture that bacteria that processes nitrites so what goes into your tank has little to no nitrites, ... more nitrates, but your plants will love you for nitrates


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## jaysee

Bacteria lives on surfaces, not in the water itself.

The water will evaporate before any bacteria gets a foothold in there.


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## Flear

the water will not evaporate that fast unless your bucket is shallow & heated without a lid, just like the aquarium, it doesn't evaporate that fast unless your home and how you manage your tank is encouraging evaporation
-personal experience

if your worried, you can top off anything evaporated to keep it full

... and not all bacteria requires a surface to live on. what is called bacterioplankton, simular to phytoplankton, but not photosynthetic (among the most significant differences)

does not mean this bacteria is going to care about the nitrogen cycle going on in your tank or any bucket of water.

as for the bacteria that is desired for the nitrogen cycle in our tanks, ...

initially it's air-born, ends up in our tanks, settles on a surface, and grows and multiplies 

there's a lot of what goes on in our tanks (including algae) that is gained by the air that happens to land in our tanks.

most algae & bacteria in our aquariums are gained this way. do i know why their airborn, ... not a clue, does it help our tanks culture with beneficial bacteria to eventually reduce ammonia to nitrates, ... yes.

so do i care why, ... not really, but if it helps our tanks, that's what counts

as far as i know, the nitrifying/denytrifying bacteria are present on surfaces for sure, i am less concerned "if" they're free-floating in the water.


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## jaysee

Flear said:


> the water will not evaporate that fast unless your bucket is shallow & heated without a lid, just like the aquarium, it doesn't evaporate that fast unless your home and how you manage your tank is encouraging evaporation
> -personal experience
> 
> -------- that fast? My point was how long it will take to cycle a bucket of water without the life support for the bacteria.
> 
> 
> ... and not all bacteria requires a surface to live on. what is called bacterioplankton, simular to phytoplankton, but not photosynthetic (among the most significant differences)
> 
> -------- I realize this, but we are talking about aquariums yes??
> 
> 
> does not mean this bacteria is going to care about the nitrogen cycle going on in your tank or any bucket of water.
> 
> ------ then what is the point? I think this superfluous talk just confuses people.
> 
> as for the bacteria that is desired for the nitrogen cycle in our tanks, ...
> 
> initially it's air-born, ends up in our tanks, settles on a surface, and grows and multiplies
> 
> ----- can't do that so well with a lid on the bucket.
> 
> there's a lot of what goes on in our tanks (including algae) that is gained by the air that happens to land in our tanks.
> 
> most algae & bacteria in our aquariums are gained this way. do i know why their airborn, ... not a clue, does it help our tanks culture with beneficial bacteria to eventually reduce ammonia to nitrates, ... yes.
> 
> ------ I believe they are transferred via moisture in the air.
> 
> so do i care why, ... not really, but if it helps our tanks, that's what counts
> 
> --------- I do not care about the technical jargon either. Just about practical applications.
> 
> as far as i know, the nitrifying/denytrifying bacteria are present on surfaces for sure, i am less concerned "if" they're free-floating in the water.
> 
> -------- then why this business about the bucket?


My post is embedded in yours.


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## Flear

how quickly, ... not sure
the typical 6 weeks for a cycle includes the entire process
-rising ammonia levels
-rising bacteria to process ammonia into nitrites
-rising nitrate levels
-rising bacteria to process nitrites into nitrates
-rising nitrate levels ...

from that, the op's water starts half way through that cycle with significant nitrites already.

---

for bacteria, bacterioplankton, air-born bacteria (and other) that ends up in our tanks, ... yes, we're talking about our aquariums.

my own interests on a search for self-sustaining tanks has provided findings with others pursuits of the same goal, ... namely most people consider only what they can see. and our eyes allow us to see fish fry as the smallest parts of what we are interested in to consider.

as zoo plankton (of any sort) are often not considered, and smaller is not considered, ... and bacteria (of any sort) falls into the SMALLER section, ... no one pays attention to what they can't see, and the bacteria responsible for the nitrogen cycle is an often considered 'taken-for-granted' given of what goes on in a tank cycle, ... after that, do you have any idea what you have growing in your tank on a microscopic level ?, what it's responsible for, or what does to your tank ?

yes, i'm talking about our aquariums

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true can't spontaneously produce the beneficial bacteria in a bucket with a lid on it.
we can add a cup from the tank which will be full of the good bacteria we seek
-or my favorite, i love those foam pieces for HOB filters, for everything, and they support a significant surface area that will be filled with beneficial bacteria that would love to process any nitrites, ... speeding up the length of time to process nitrites considerably or faster.

---

as for concerns about the bucket, ... it's a place to hold water while doing whatever we have started to have it process & reduce the nitrites that the OP is having concerns about.


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## carlos puron

I've read about the bucket before I think in the betta fish forum it was saying something like if you can't wait to get your fish in there you can start cycling process in a bucket with a filter I didn't know about adding water but it was suggesting to add one of the cartdriges or a sponge or something cause that has the beneficial bacteria I'll give it a try I have some extra equipment 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaysee

I'm going to be honest and say that I am having a hard time following your thought process and so I don't know where to begin in response.

What is it, exactly, that you are talking about?


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## ao

carlos puron said:


> I've read about the bucket before I think in the betta fish forum it was saying something like if you can't wait to get your fish in there you can start cycling process in a bucket with a filter I didn't know about adding water but it was suggesting to add one of the cartdriges or a sponge or something cause that has the beneficial bacteria I'll give it a try I have some extra equipment
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You certainly can cycle in a bucket... however you will need a filter, filter media as well as a source of ammonia (usually bottled pure ammonia) 

Taking some filter media from an already cycled tank and placing that in the filter running in the bucket can help speed up the process.


Sent from Petguide.com App


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## Flear

an example, ... an experience
a bucket of water, a bubbler, plant trimmings (from the aquarium) that have been dried & chopped/crushed.

one would expect with a large handful (after drying & crushing) this would give significant ammonia levels if left to break down in a bucket of water

-no lid, just a bubbler to keep water moving.

... not significant source of ammonia as i left this to wait a week before adding this water to the aquarium.

... Jaysee,
there's a world of different between theory of what could go wrong and actual experience of what happens
-where is your confusion ?

---

one of the biggest road blocks in aquariums i am finding is seeing a reliance on sterility (which i personally view as another word for death - something that nothing can survive with) and fear mongering.

for what i have come across, the aquarium hobby years ago relied on producing an aquarium far more akin to a self-sustaining tank then now, and now many people in the hobby would look at what was going on decades ago and argue till blue in the face "that can't be done, it's impossible", yet that's exactly what people did.

it seems many of our 'modern' innovations revolve around sterile aquariums and we're compensating by maintaining a system that is otherwise incapable of supporting itself, requiring scheduled maintenance from us to compensate for the parts of our mini contained ecosystem that we have removed.

there is a lack of fundamental basics on what is going on to keep our tanks healthy. and to make matters worse an established idea that we must keep the things out of the tank that are required to allow it to have a healthy balance.

so i'm not sure where your confused
is there more going on in my bucket of water, ... probably.

i'm got a ton of questions that to date, in or out of the hobby i am not finding answers to any of these questions.

often enough finding answers like "well these things sort themselves out, so you need not be bothered knowing about the details"

that's frustrating.

but as far as simple answers go

if tapwater has nigher than desired nitrites ...
putting the tap water in a bucket that is left to age and mature
allowing beneficial bacteria to culture and 'cycle'
this IS going to become safe for the tank relatively fast and no one needs to know the details behind it.

sometimes understanding what is going on gets in the way of just letting things do their stuff with a positive end-result

but i can see how this can lead to a breed of person that relies on a system where (s)he is told what they need to make it work and they lack any knowledge or background to understand anything differently

and so we have modern aquarium knowledge that looks at what was going on 100 years ago and there are those arguing till blue in the face "well that idea is just an impossible fantasy that cannot last" ... yet that's exactly what happened.


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## jaysee

I know I'm not the only one that has trouble following your lines of thought. You're posts are just all over the map - touching on this and that but not really dwelling on anything long enough for people to understand where it is you are taking us. I'm not saying this to put you down or anything so don't take it that way. I think you've got some interesting things to say, but the way you share your thoughts is confusing for a lot of people. I can't control how you will react to this but i do hope that you take it in the spirit that it was given - as helpful advice for getting your points across in a way that is better understood by those reading them.

I think I agree with some of the things you are saying. I definitely agree with the counterproductive practice of trying to sterilize everything, but I disagree that "modern" aquariums have such a focus. Only betta people are obsessed with everything being "clean". I do not think that many of them are representative of modern fishkeeping practices.


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## beaslbob

All I do is start the tank with lotsa plants, add fish slowly, and just replace the tank water that evaporates with straight untreated tap.

Tanks last for years with heavy bioloads that way and low or no ammonia/nitrIte cycle spikes. And eventually low or no nitrates and phosphates as well.


my .02


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## Flear

ya, i know i bounce around lots, ... makes research for a the mythical/legendary self-sustaining tank difficult too, one search leads into another so often i can spend a week looking up dozens of different curiosities in different areas and never touch on the same kind of search twice, ... then by the end of the week found 2 more areas to pursue

it does not help me stay focused, that's for sure


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## beaslbob

Flear said:


> ya, i know i bounce around lots, ... makes research for a the mythical/legendary self-sustaining tank difficult too, one search leads into another so often i can spend a week looking up dozens of different curiosities in different areas and never touch on the same kind of search twice, ... then by the end of the week found 2 more areas to pursue
> 
> it does not help me stay focused, that's for sure


:lol::lol::lol::lol:

FWIW just because I don't conduct scheduled water changes does not mean my tanks are self substaining.

Just easier to maintain than tanks where water changes are required.


my .02


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## Hallyx

Flear, the purpose of a hobby forum like this one is to share and pass along _accurate_ information. While there is a small measure of good info in your presentation, the large amount of inaccurate or counterfactual data approaches the danger mark. I mean dangerous to new or inexperienced keepers and their livestock.


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## beaslbob

Hallyx said:


> Flear, the purpose of a hobby forum like this one is to share and pass along _accurate_ information. While there is a small measure of good info in your presentation, the large amount of inaccurate or counterfactual data approaches the danger mark. I mean dangerous to new or inexperienced keepers and their livestock.


 
Hopefully you don't mean "my" beaslbob build type methods.

I have had similiar warnings yet have ran tanks with no water changes for 9 years. Both marine and freshwater.

I just hope your warning don't prevent hobbiest from building tanks that are balanced out and as much "self substaining" as possible.


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## Chesh

Just a reminder that this thread is in the Advanced Discussions section of the forum, which was created as a place for our more experienced members to explore areas of fishkeeping that may be a bit different from the norm or controversial in nature. Threads like this one are posted in here to avoid confusing or unintentionally misdirecting our beginners. I took the liberty of separating the more basic cycling questions of the original poster from this thread, and creating a new thread in our Beginner Freshwater section, where they are currently being addressed in a way that he is able to understand, and apply to his tank. I am actively monitoring _both _threads to ensure that everyone stays on-topic, and that the correct information is getting to those members who are in need of it.

Though discussions in this area of the forum may sometimes become a bit heated, I must ask that everyone do their best to keep things polite, on-topic, and refrain from insulting personal comments. We may not always understand, or agree with, the ways of another member, but we are all here to share our experiences - as different as they may be. Feel free to continue this conversation, and by all means don't refrain from questioning the methods of other posters so that we all may understand other perspectives and perspectives better - but please be respectful of others, always.

Thanks!


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## angelcraze

Yes, you would need to "feed" the bacteria initially and keep feeding it to stay alive. You could feed it with, pure ammonia, rotting fish food, dirt, anything decomposing, ect. Your beneficial bacteria will colonize itself with time (pure ammonia would be the quickest way), but you would need something for the bacteria to colonize on, and oxygen added (consumed by the BB), like an HOB filter with media disputing the water's surface, already mentioned, or a sponge filter with airstone. Your BB would be on your filter media, sponge, or the porous surface it sticks too, not too much of it stays in the water column itself, also already mentioned, so it work the exact same way as taking filter media from an existing established tank. The BB will only reproduce as much as it has to (in the bucket) to keep the cycle happening, or as much ammonia (in any form) you feed it. I guess it would be the most useful for a betta bowl, where you are changing the water completely, although I have never owned a betta.


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## angelcraze

aokashi said:


> You certainly can cycle in a bucket... however you will need a filter, filter media as well as a source of ammonia (usually bottled pure ammonia)
> 
> Taking some filter media from an already cycled tank and placing that in the filter running in the bucket can help speed up the process.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


I meant to quote this.


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## Flear

fighting betta's are ... 
had a few, call me naive, yes, i ignored what others talked about ...
wanted to imagine they wouldn't hassle the other fish, ... a few dead fish later, got rid of the betta
tried again, different betta, ... in time the same results,

... never again

i like/prefer community friendly tanks,
i have heard of a peaceful betta, but the fighting betta has left a bad taste in my mouth so i hesitate.


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## angelcraze

Wow, I meant uselful for a betta bowl, with no filter or surface for the BB to cling to, where you are water changing the entire bowl often, and not really ever getting the water to cycle in the first place, I guess it would just allow you to not change the water as often-right?


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## Flear

if your doing 100% water changes, ... how is that different from no water changes ? (add a plant or 2 just to be on the safe side)


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## jaysee

Flear said:


> if your doing 100% water changes, ... how is that different from no water changes ? (add a plant or 2 just to be on the safe side)


In the case of the fish bowl, the difference is a dead fish more often than not.


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## sandybottom

just stumbled upon this thread.gotta say that it is pretty confusing. where does the op get their source water from? for that matter who is the op?


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## angelcraze

Flear said:


> if your doing 100% water changes, ... how is that different from no water changes ? (add a plant or 2 just to be on the safe side)[/QUOTE
> 
> I was having a hard time understanding why you wanted to conduct this experiment in the first place, I see now, you want to skip on the w/c s. I'm not sure how adding nitrate to your fish tank would be more beneficial than removing access ferts or minerals that your plants don't use and replacing the minerals and ferts that your plants do use. It's pretty impossible to know exactly what your plants are using, and to dose, w/c accordingly, so anything we "fishkeepers" do is just a guess, I guess, I mean, how much ferts our plants use is based on the size of the tank, how many plants we have in there, the biolaod, it goes on and on....we just try to get a 'balance" to keep algae at bay and fish and plants healthy for each individual tank.


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## Chesh

sandybottom said:


> just stumbled upon this thread.gotta say that it is pretty confusing. where does the op get their source water from? for that matter who is the op?




I moved the original posts here from another thread, 
I'm still not sure if I put the right topic on it! >.<
I forgot to link it back there! Thanks, Sandy! ^__^
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/beginner-freshwater-aquarium/cycling-help-324490/

Looks like things are going well over there. though!


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## sandybottom

oooh. it makes a little more sense now.missed it when the two posts were seperated. thanks a bunch chesh. things are going swimmingly over here.;-)


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