# Fishless cycle- Ammonia is over 8 PPM!!!



## omarion0815 (Apr 29, 2014)

Hello, I am currently doing a fishless cycle on a 10 gallon fish tank. On the first day, I added ammonia. I tested and it was AT 8PPM. I waited a couple of days, and it stayed the same. I kept doing water changes, but it wouldn't drop. Now I am 3 weeks into the cycle, and the Ammonia is still at 8PPM:|

Thanks,
Omar


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## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

Unless there is ammonia in your tapwater, water changes will decrease your ammonia concentration. I would change 50-75% of the tanks volume everyday till you are at 4 ppm or lower. Also check your tapwater ph. If ph is below 6.5 or so you might have a hard time starting your cycle. As soon as nitrifying bacteria colonze your tank, your ammonia should fall quickly.
Good luck!


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## omarion0815 (Apr 29, 2014)

Okay, thank you.


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## omarion0815 (Apr 29, 2014)

Anyone else have any advice?


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## FishyFishy89 (Jul 3, 2011)

test your tap water for ammonia
and continue doing water changes until the ammonia levels drop.


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## Tazman (Jan 15, 2012)

Thread moved by moderator.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

Your tank won't cycle if the ammonia is above 5ppm. Have you tested your tap water yet?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## omarion0815 (Apr 29, 2014)

Yes I've tested my tap water. Its ammonia is 2 ppm


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## FishyFishy89 (Jul 3, 2011)

Yikes, have you tried dosing with SeaChem Prime?


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## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

Tapwater ammonia at 2 ppm is no good! You'll need to dose prime with every water change, but for cycling it should be ok. Can't think why your ammonia would remain at 8 after several water changes even with 2ppm ammonia tapwater. Make sure to test your tap pH, might be the root of your problem.
Just out of curiosity,.where are you located? City or well water? 
Thanks for bringing this to the forum!


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## RSVBiffer (Feb 3, 2014)

Flint said:


> Your tank won't cycle if the ammonia is above 5ppm. Have you tested your tap water yet?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry but that is not correct, the recommendation for Biomature is between 5 and 10ppm and the last three tanks I have cycled (all inside of 25 days) have all exceeded 8ppm.


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## shellieca (Jul 12, 2012)

What are you testing the water with, specifically what test kit, liquid or strips? If your tap water is at 2 ppm, I would look into it, that seems very high. Most cities have their water standards on line, 2 ppm just seems unsafe to me. Personally I would do a 100% water change, test the water and then only add enough ammonia to bring the level to 4-5.


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## omarion0815 (Apr 29, 2014)

I just tested my aquarium water now and it's at 4 PPM:-D. I live in Saint Augustine, FL and I use city water. The PH in the tap water is 7.0 PPM


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## omarion0815 (Apr 29, 2014)

I test my water with the liquid API master test kit.


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## omarion0815 (Apr 29, 2014)

Should I do a 100% water change, even though my ammonia is at 4ppm?


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## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

I would not change 100% water if your ammonia is down to 4 ppm. Just my opinion. Your pH is fine and most florida water is good for alkalinity and hardness. In.a.normal cycle you should see.ammonia dropping and nitrite starting to appear. After that, nitrite and ammonia will fall to minimal levels and nitrate will start to show up. Please keep us updated as I am very interested to see what happens next.
Thanks and good luck!


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

Is biomature an additive like TSS? A normal cycle will stall at above 5ppm.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSVBiffer (Feb 3, 2014)

Biomature is basically ammonia with the trace elements that are beneficial to the growth of the bacterial colonies. A normal cycle doesn't stall above 5ppm, I think that is one of those myths that has grown with the internet (of which there are many) in an attempt to find an explanation when something goes wrong. For years I have been cycling with a starting point of ammonia around 10ppm and each one has completed within 4 weeks. I get the ammonia to around 10ppm and let the cycle run its course. I monitor pH and alkalinity but have never had reason to adjust either of those during a cycle (but then I have always tended to live in fairly hard water areas). To keep the Nitrosomonas ticking along I add a weekly dose of ammonia during the course of the cycle.

In fact, the longest cycle I have had was when I started with ammonia at 4ppm. Of course, not saying that the starting level of ammonia was the cause as there are many factors that could have affected it. All the requirements of the cycle have to be kept in balance and these are (presuming there is a day food source available) pH, temp, light, oxygen, micronutrients (trace elements), salinity and toxins.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

How are you testing ammonia at 10ppm?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FishyFishy89 (Jul 3, 2011)

Flint said:


> Is biomature an additive like TSS? A normal cycle will stall at above 5ppm.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It won't stall
But it'll take much longer(in my experience and study)

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## RSVBiffer (Feb 3, 2014)

With ammonia test kits...various ones over the years (of course, it is also possible to calculate the levels of ammonia in the tank without using a test kit which I have also been known to do ).

I think the problem (cycle appearing to stall/take longer) that people encounter when trying to use higher doses of ammonia are that they ignore the other contributing factors, notably dissolved O2 and the micronutrients. If these are low then issues will be hit. As long as all the factors are kept in balance then there is absolutely no reason why there should be any impact on the length of time to cycle, the Nitrosomonas will double in approx.7 hours and Nitrobacter in approx.13 hours under optimal conditions. 

As examples, when I cycled the guppy tank about 12 months back I initially ran the ammonia up to 10ppm and that cycled in 25days, the Amazon cycled in 10 days but then that was seeded once I hit the target for ammonia.

When cycling a marine tank then the Nitrobacter tend to take longer than the Nitrosomonas as they are further from their ideal pH.


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## omarion0815 (Apr 29, 2014)

Thank you all for your replies. I will keep you all updated and I will post pictures soon.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

As RSVB says, under ideal conditions a higher dose of ammonia can help the cycle. I've cycled with ammonia above 7.0ppm. But heat, light, flow, aeration, minerals must be optimized. I think the advice to keep ammonia <5.0ppm may be to compensate for less than ideal conditions.

A tapwater reading of 2.0ppm is probably not legal. You should check. But I, personally, wouldn't drink that. A dose of 2-drops/gal of Prime in your refill water will lock that up. But it wouldn't hurt to have live plants. They eat ammonia faster than bacteria.

Dr Tim Hovanec (inventor of BioSpira, ne: Tetra Safestart, the first live bacteria cycle starter) found that the nitrifying bacteria that perform the cycle are Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira. I think Nitrobacter may be for SW. I wish I had time to check.

RSVB, I'd like to know how you determine the ammonia level without using a test kit.


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## corina savin (Jul 11, 2012)

I am not a fun of the fishless cycle and never found the patience to complete one.....just because I don't have the patience to stock slowly.
Breeders might need a fully cycled tank right away and my understanding is that "4 ppm" ammonia processed in 24 h correspond to a fully stocked tank. Why do I need a biofilter capable to convert twice as much ammonia when, at the end of the cycle I am limited to the same nr of fish?


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

If you don't fishless cycle you HAVE to stock slowly. It will be a miserable cycling experience keeping up with the cycle with a fully stocked tank UNLESS you use an additive like TSS. 

I, too, was curious about calculating ammonia without a kit. It's importable to know what plants use, the bacteria concert, ect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FishyFishy89 (Jul 3, 2011)

Well the big benefit of fishless cycling is you will have a boatload of BB and will have little difficulty stocking your tank afterwords.
In my experience, I had to stock more slowly in a fish in cycled tank. As opposed to my current 75 gallon. Whenever I added more stock, it was once a month. My last fish in cycled tank couldn't take new stock(unless 1 fish at a time) that often. I had to wait 2-3 months between stocking. Even with the bacteria supplements.


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## corina savin (Jul 11, 2012)

My point is: at the end of the fishless cycle, unless you add all your stock at once, you'll lose the extra BB. Let's say you can keep 30 fish in a 75g. If you add and keep only 10 fish for few months, your tank will adjust to the amount of ammonia produced by 10 fish. Any extra fish will have to be added slowly, just like in fish in cycle. That "magic" number of 4 ppm ammonia/day represents how much ammonia a fully stocked tank will produce a day (of course, will go undetected if a tank is cycled).


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

corina savin said:


> Why do I need a biofilter capable to convert twice as much ammonia when, at the end of the cycle I am limited to the same nr of fish?


Yup! Good question.


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## FishyFishy89 (Jul 3, 2011)

corina savin said:


> My point is: at the end of the fishless cycle, unless you add all your stock at once, you'll lose the extra BB. Let's say you can keep 30 fish in a 75g. If you add and keep only 10 fish for few months, your tank will adjust to the amount of ammonia produced by 10 fish. Any extra fish will have to be added slowly, just like in fish in cycle. That "magic" number of 4 ppm ammonia/day represents how much ammonia a fully stocked tank will produce a day (of course, will go undetected if a tank is cycled).


I believe that is false.
I've been stocking my 75 gallon over the course of a year. Most times taking longer between new stocks because of paying bills and never have I encountered any issues when adding new stock to my tank.

Same goes for a friend who has a 200 gallon. Jan of 2013, he finished fishless cycling and was able to add new stock every month. It is a tetra tank and he's been adding schools almost every single month. He just finished his stocking this month.


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## RSVBiffer (Feb 3, 2014)

Hallyx said:


> Dr Tim Hovanec (inventor of BioSpira, ne: Tetra Safestart, the first live bacteria cycle starter) found that the nitrifying bacteria that perform the cycle are Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira. I think Nitrobacter may be for SW. I wish I had time to check.


Nitrobacter are found in SW, FW and soil. The last time I looked into the nitrifying process and Nitrospira (it is something regularly amended due to the ongoing research) there is actually some debate as to whether they work alongside Nitrosomonas in the processing of ammonia or if they are the major organism in the processing of nitrite. Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter still tend to be the generally accepted terms when referring to the two groups of bacteria within the hobby. Apologies for the confusion.



Hallyx said:


> RSVB, I'd like to know how you determine the ammonia level without using a test kit.





Flint said:


> I, too, was curious about calculating ammonia without a kit. It's importable to know what plants use, the bacteria concert, ect.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you are putting a known quantity of ammonia into a known volume of water then it is fairly straightforward to calculate the resultant concentration. There are a number of calculators around on the web, I even wrote some (including the usual KH, GH, SG etc) for a few reef websites/forums a few years back. I must admit it is going back a time now and most of it has left my head but, if you are interested, then there are certainly sites around with the calculators on.

I only have experience of calculating ammonia in plant less aquaria and no hands on with planted ones so don't shoot me for this as this could well be wrong! "I have heard" that the uptake of nitrogen by plants in the first few days of a setup's life is negligible, i.e. the plants take time to "bed in", and therefore their impact at this stage is minimal. Remember, we are only building up the initial level of ammonia to 10ppm and then letting the cycle run its course with a weekly dose of ammonia to prevent die off as the Nitrosomonas (and possibly Nitrospira ;-)) use up their internal "food store" and the nitrifying bacteria are unable to produce spores. The only levels of ammonia we are concerned about are the initial 10ppm and the final 0ppm. Of course, there are people around who believe you shouldn't cycle with plants in the setup.



corina savin said:


> Why do I need a biofilter capable to convert twice as much ammonia when, at the end of the cycle I am limited to the same nr of fish?


What is a stocked tank? Ask three people and the chances are you will get three different answers. Take Mbuna cichlids, these should be overstocked and quickly to curb targeted bullying. In increasing the initial ammonia level we are creating a bigger margin of error. We often see people who cycle a tank and then start to put livestock in and encounter a "mini cycle". Whilst in a freshwater environment that mini cycle is very undesirable, in a marine environment it is lethal due to the increased toxicity of ammonia at higher pH values and the greater sensitivity of SW fishes to ammonia (let alone inverts). There is actually no harm in over filtering (providing we are not stripping food etc out of the water column) but there are certainly drawbacks to under filtering.

Returning to the original point being made, a cycle will not stall above 5ppm unless the contributing factors are out of balance (the two that are often overlooked being dissolved O2 and micronutrients). If the OP wished to know his actual TAN, assuming it is off the top of the scale on his test kit, then the test sample could be diluted with ammonia free water and the result multiplied by the dilution factor. Obviously no longer an issue as the reading is down to 4ppm:-D.


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## RSVBiffer (Feb 3, 2014)

Of course, I have assumed there that the OP is a male and I apologise if that is not the case .... Think of it as the generic _him_


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

That was excellent. Thanks for taking the time.


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## Juggernaut122 (Jul 6, 2013)

omarion0815 said:


> Hello, I am currently doing a fishless cycle on a 10 gallon fish tank. On the first day, I added ammonia. I tested and it was AT 8PPM. I waited a couple of days, and it stayed the same. I kept doing water changes, but it wouldn't drop. Now I am 3 weeks into the cycle, and the Ammonia is still at 8PPM:|
> 
> Thanks,
> Omar


When I did a fishless cycle of my 10 gallon tank, I just added some fish food and when the ammonia level went to 8 I added a bottle of the nitrifying (sp?) bacteria I bought from Petsmart and the tank cycled in about a week or so


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## omarion0815 (Apr 29, 2014)

Juggernaut122 said:


> When I did a fishless cycle of my 10 gallon tank, I just added some fish food and when the ammonia level went to 8 I added a bottle of the nitrifying (sp?) bacteria I bought from Petsmart and the tank cycled in about a week or so


What was the name of the nitrifying bacteria?


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## omarion0815 (Apr 29, 2014)

Hello everyone, it's been a while. I have a nitrite spike, BUT the ammonia is not going down.:-?


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## Juggernaut122 (Jul 6, 2013)

omarion0815 said:


> What was the name of the nitrifying bacteria?


Hi,

Sorry. Looks like I did not get an email notification about your post.

This is what I use(d):
Tetra® SafeStart Aquarium Cycling Water Conditioner | Cycling Aids/Bacteria | PetSmart

Worked within about a week. (zero ammonia, zero nitrite, 20 nitrate)

I hope this helps.

Juggernaut


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## omarion0815 (Apr 29, 2014)

Okay, do I add it in, and then add fish? Or do I just add it, and continue my cycle?


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

Members I've talked to tell me TSS works well in reducing nitrite spikes.

It's designed for fish-in cycling. Follow the directions. Dose TSS and stock immediately. 

Or dose TSS and keep adding ammonia to continue the cycle.


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## pop (Aug 29, 2012)

Hello Friends:
After reading the opinions expressed in this thread I must add you all make cycling a difficult process. It’s Scary I say Scary son, I guess the reason it is so hard is due to the fact you all are in an excessive hurry to have the process completed.


Nitrogen cycle just happens that all there is to it. Just add the juice and take a vacation and in a few weeks there will be nitrates and your aquarium will be cycled. Remember hearing that a ‘watched pot never boils’. Well a watched tank will never cycles.


It appears you test your water to much and then attempt knee-jerked judgment calls as to how to fix what does not need fixing. Give yourself a break and have a cold one and relax this is the fun part of fish keeping resolving issues as they come up. Occupy you time selecting the plants and lighting that will create the vision you deserve. 
pop


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## FishyFishy89 (Jul 3, 2011)

It's not complicated at all
I fishless cycle my tanks. Add pure ammonia up to 4ppm and let it sit for a month. Testing once a week to see where I am at. Once there is no more ammonia. I do %50 and add 1 more dose of ammonia to 2ppm to be sure the cycle is working smoothly. Then I go about adding fish once the tank is cycled.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## omarion0815 (Apr 29, 2014)

Okay, I dosed the TSS yesterday, and I stocked my tank. I'm keeping an eye out on those fish!


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

Good one, Pop. Great attitude adjustment.

Recently, a new keeper finishing her first cycle blew me away with this insight.

*Bacteria happens !*


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