# Moving over to the SW side :p



## bobo (Sep 20, 2007)

SO i am really considering to start a SW tank and money is soon going to become available.

I am a large fan of SW fish and have caught many octapus and dragon fish in my time 

I am really interested in Having a puffer fish and A dragon fish and perhaps any other fish that go with them

Reading around however i really cant find anywhere which tells me what i need and what i have to do to start a SW tank.

If there is a post already can i please be redirected or can anyone simply be kind enough to start me off so i can plan out what i`m lokoing for.

As i said fishwise i want a dragon fish and a puffer fish! do these 2 even go together? what else can i put with them! I know puffer fish require lots of attetnion but i`m ready to do so! Thanks in advance for the help


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

hi
i'm pretty much in the same boat as you.
from help,and reading on the net........
Protein skimmer,Sand,RO unit,Power heads,refractormeter,
test kits,sump,lights.
although from what i read not necessarily a sump needed.
i'm going to get the Hydor Koralia power heads for mine,
they look good.
any good ?
also i would have helped me to have looked at the sticky
at the top of the page. :roll:


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Willow, good start off list... but first I must ask if we can define "dragon fish"? That could be a number of different species from eel to wrasse to mandarin goby. We can't advise if they will be compatible and tank requirements until we first know exactly what you want to keep.
I'll watch this thread so we can get you started asap!


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## caferacermike (Oct 3, 2006)

I figure dragon to be mandarin as most people go nuts when they see one. Not a good fish period. Most die in captivity. Puffers are easy to keep alive but very difficult to keep the tank itself healthy since they make a huge mess when they eat. If I ever kept a puffer I'd keep it by itself in a designated tank.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

There are a number of other fish that can be kept with a puffer easy enough, the trick is providing enough space, enough filtration, enough food, enough shelter, and enough water changes. How much of yourself are you willing to invest in keeping a puffer? They're great fish but require specific care. Things like snowflake eels can make good tankmates, I've seen a few of the triggerfish that do well with puffers, lionfish, etc... but size is everything, both in fish and tank. 
Also, with a puffer, keep in mind it will have to be a fish only tank because the puffers feed on inverts, including corals.


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## bobo (Sep 20, 2007)

okay so finally my plans are coming into action. i`ve been looking around on the web and this is the fish i was talking about *aka the dragon fish* 
http://www.borneo.com.au/images/divefish/reeffish4.jpg

Also i decided not to repair my previous tank but to just buy a new one and get the LFS (which is actually extremely helpful) to help me build the tank! I do not want them to help me choose my fish though because they usually dont help! So i was thinking of a 55 gallon or perhaps bigger tank and i want it to involve some LR but to be mostly FO since i know the puffer is likely to destroy most invertibrates and smaller fish!

so assuming you disagree with the `dragon` fish what other fish do you suggest? The puffer will either be a porcupine puffer or just one of the normal large puffer fish (not familiar with the name)
this fishstore also has brought some mappa puffer fish in the past but i heard they are quite expensive and harder to keep then normal puffer fish!

what other fish are suggested that will live peacefully with a puffer fish! I really like clown fish etc but i dont know if they will last long! being a fisherman (i let everything go after) myself i have caught many octopus , dragon fish, crabs and lots of other types of fish before. Would it be wise to get something from the sea and put it in my tank?  also ideas on what i can match with the puffer?


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## bobo (Sep 20, 2007)

lion fish btw  not dragon fish D:


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## bobo (Sep 20, 2007)

okay was a bit unready when i wrote my post so would like to add that puffer is by far a must have - so lets work with a fish only tank  suggestions ? ideas?


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Ok, for starters, 55 gallons would not begin to hold a puffer fish unless you worked with something like a spotted puffer that has been acclimated from brackish to full saltwater. Pufferfish get really large, can be extremely aggressive, and they bite hard and do damage quick. They also jump. If a pufferfish is a must have, start looking at a minimum of 125 gallons if you intend to mix in another fish, 90+ gallons for just the one fish. 
As for what will survive with a pufferfish, again, that will depend greatly upon tank size. These fish are all predators, and keep in mind that feeling crowded is the best way to initiate aggression that otherwise would be minimal in well fed and healthy fish.
With a porcupine puffer you don't want to mix anything that will pick on the puffer, while they are aggressive and predatory, they also tend to be giant chickens and stress quite easily. The hardest part of keeping the porkies is in getting them to settle in and eat. They can be fussy and stubborn, and without enough dedication to trying different foods and frequently, many die soon after being moved.
Wth dog face puffers, there are more options because dog face's are much more aggressive and "in your face". Triggerfish, most eel species, lionfish, some of the groupers... the trick is in keeping everything close in size so they can't eat each other and in providing a lot of rockwork so they have plenty of territory of their own to avoid fights. 
What you are talking about creating is a neat community, but, always remember the aggression levels in all of these fish and never forget the size the become. Filtration will be more difficult to provide as they grow, and frequent water changes will be a must. 
There is a pretty wide range of foods you can use to feel them all the same things at the same time, but it is messy. Eels don't see very well, so will need more specialized attention, and they need a tight cover to keep them in the tank. Groupers tend to eat what fits into their mouth as they grow. Triggers will tend to fight fiercely over food. Lionfish have the ability to sting, having venomous spines, and if you get stung, have 911 preprogrammed into your phone... it can be very very painful and debilitating. Each species has its own issues that run common, though there will always be an exception to the rule here and there. 
Hope this is just a heads up for anyone considering keeping any of these awesome fish... they're great, but they're large and demanding, so being prepared for them is a must.

As for catching wild fish and putting them into the aquarium, I don't suggest it. The biggest issue would be introducing disease into the aquarium, the other reason is stress. While many of the fish in this trade are still wild caught, they go through a process of quarantine before being available to a home aquarium, and even this is not always enough to save them or prevent disease. Many of the issues that show up in a store tank (things they don't tell the general public) will typically come in with a new shipment, and the losses can be extreme. A whole tank full of expensive fish is suddenly sick overnight. In a store tank, medicating is much easier than in a typical home environment, and even then, the losses are great at times. A store will find out if a fish is eating or not before you attempt to take it home and watch it starve to death... which is very common in puffers, especially the porkies. 
I hope this was of some help to you... Let us know if you need more info!


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## bobo (Sep 20, 2007)

thanks alot for your information - i`ll look into bigger tanks and see what i can afford / get my hands onto! Assuming i get a 125 gallon is that okay for both the puffer and a single lion fish>?


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

yep, that would be fine for just the 2, but would still mean frequent water changes as they grow... they both get quite large.


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## crystalclear83 (Oct 13, 2007)

Actually there are smaller puffers like the Valentine puffer that could go in a 55 fine it's a little less aggressive than a dog faced etc. I think it would be fine with a lion fish as long as it could not fit in it's mouth. Also they have dwarf lion fish as well that look just like the larger ones that you could put in there. Mabey a triger or eel and you have a nice little tank! But most eels that I know of get big and your talking 125 again! Also if it gets that big kiss your valentine goodbye! Pun intended
:lol:


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Valentini's commonly stress badly, and the biggest problem in keeping them is in getting them to eat. They are not as "sturdy" as the dogface. They are slow growing and top out around 5 inches or so.

Other than that, they're cool little fish, but I agree you can't mix them with an eel... even a snowflake eel would be too much for a Valentini. Just as for the porcupine, you'd want to make sure not to mix them with anything that might pick on them.

Dwarf lions are cool, just watch out for those spines, they are just as venomous and aggressive as the full size lions such as volitans. If working with the 55 I would suggest as much live rock as you can get in to help with filtration, sand as a stubstrate as the dwarf lions spend much more time hanging out "sitting" on things, like the bottom and rock formations... and really good filtration. Watch the species of dwarf lion if you go that route, some can get as large as 12 inches, and will outgrow a 55 gallon tank AND a valentini puffer quite soon. 

If you need more specifics about these fish, let us know and we will help all we can.


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## bobo (Sep 20, 2007)

that valentini puffer fish looks really nice but living on an island so far away from everything i believe my choices are slightly more limited - i`ll visit the petstore soon and let you know what is available!


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## bobo (Sep 20, 2007)

okay so in a fish only tank . will the filtration process take less time?


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## crystalclear83 (Oct 13, 2007)

Fish only? No live rock? Are you refering to the cycle? That's a good question, but you would need hardy fish. And it is reccomended that you use live rock, and I think live rock would take less time about 2 weeks. Where as the typical fish cycle takes about a month. But you always could try a marine bacteria additive I think they help jump start the cycle and then if you really wanted to you would not have to use live rock. it would also be eaiser on the fish.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

I'm not sure I understood that last question...???


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## bobo (Sep 20, 2007)

basically i think i confused myself! assuming i wanted just the 2 fish in the tank - i thought most of the cycling process was so the coral and live rock could adjust! so i thought if it was fish only then would the cycling process take less time? making any sense?


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Ok, I think I understand your question, and while the question itself makes sense now, the "subject content" does not.

The nitrogen cycle is something that happens in every tank, you can't avoid it, and it can be very dangerous if it isn't stable.... for fish, inverts, anything living in the tank.

The nitrogen cycle is the course of good bacteria building up in the tank to break down the waste products in the tank to a safer form. This is where water testing becomes so important. While every tank will go through this "cycling" process, some do it faster than others, and it's important to know that the first stages of the cycle are known to be toxic to the animals (fish as well as inverts). 

An average saltwater tank will take approximately 6 - 8 wks to cycle. During this time ammonia will peak to a toxic level. As the good bacteria begins to grow, it feeds on the ammonia, which breaks it down. The waste product from the bacteria eating the ammonia is then called nitrite. More bacteria will feed on the nitrite, and break it down, thus creating nitrate as the waste product. In fresh water, the only way to remove nitrate is with water changes and live plants to help eat the nitrates. (Nitrates in freshwater is plant fertilizer). In saltwater, howerver, there are more bacteria that will eventually break down "some" of the nitrate level as well. 

Ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates in a high level are all toxic to fish and inverts.

When beginning a new saltwater tank, there are basic steps that need to be taken before adding *any* animals to the tank.
1. add water
2. add salt until specific gravity/salinity (spg) are 1.023 (this will usually take a few days to mix completely for an accurate reading) This is also a good time to add the heater and set it for 76 degrees
3. once spg is where it should be at 1.023, and temp is stable at 76, then we add live sand and live rock (in most cases). The small organisms and bacteria in the live sand and live rock will help to get your cycle started.
4. patience... wait... test water for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, calcium until everything is stable where it should be, which is ammonia at 0, nitrite at 0, nitrate should be low, 20 or less... pH is safe between 8.2 - 8.5 for saltwater, calcium should be between 400 - 500
5. small water change to help relieve any nitrate buildup
6. add first animal(s), only 1 - 2 at a time, especially in a smaller tank (55 gallons or less)
7. wait at least 2 wks before adding next animals, with a small water change in between

It is always suggested to use live rock in a saltwater tank. Live rock is where much of your bacteria culture will grow. Without it, or some type of porous rock that can be cured over time and turned into live rock... the bacteria then only has the sandbed to grow in, which is not usually sufficient enough to sustain a saltwater tank long term. Live rock in the amount of 1 lb per gallon (or as close to it as you can get) of the tank is the reccomended quantity
If you use a bacteria starter, such as "biozyme", the bateria still needs to culture and grow in the tank before adding the fish. 

When working with live rock it is important to know that the changes in conditions and the level of curring it has had will determine the amount of "die off" it produces, but anything that was previously on the rock such as algae and other matter will begin to break down, which then turns to ammonia and must go through the nitrogen cycle process to properly break down and become safe and stable. This is the reason I always suggest waiting at least a few wks and doing testing during this time before adding fish.

Saltwater isn't really any harder than freshwater, but it will usually take more time and require more patience and attention on your part to become and remain stable..

Does this help?


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## bobo (Sep 20, 2007)

yes very much thanks alot  so if i plan to start my tank at about xmas i`m looking at february for adding my puffer?


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

That sounds like a good assumption. Please remember, every tank will cycle at its own rate and these time figures are approximates. Water testing will tell you for sure when the time is right.
Good Luck and feel free to ask if you have any other questions.


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## SeaSerpant (Dec 9, 2007)

Have fun And good luck i don't have much to say


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