# Need some sump advice



## khacho2 (May 16, 2011)

I have a 60 gallon aquarium with 70lbs of live rock and 60 lbs of live sand. I want to install a sump but Im not sure on how much live rock I need to put in my sump. Should I just use sone crushed coral? Or take sone rocks out of my tank into the sump?


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

no rock in the sump (i assume it will be in a refugium section?) keep it in the display. i would also suggest sand over the crushed coral, even in your refuge. using this for a deep sand bed might be a good idea too. the slow flowing area allows to many things to get trapped in the cracks of the rock and crushed coral and allowed time to break down, releasing excess nutrients into your water. 

IF you are heart set on keeping rocks in your sump ( again, guessing its in the refugium section ) i suggest keeping 3 - 4 rocks, not stacked on each other. once a week, rotate 1 rock from your refuge into your display. by using this method you hopefully wont allow anything enough time to fully break down and also bring live foods up into your display.


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## khacho2 (May 16, 2011)

What size sump should I use ?


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## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

20 or 30 gallon should do ya ok.


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

onefish2fish said:


> i would also suggest sand over the crushed coral, even in your refuge.


after re-reading what i had wrote this sounds alittle mis-leading. i do NOT mean adding crushed coral, then filling in the cracks with sand on top. i do mean that using sand instead of crushed coral IMO provides better long term results.

as for the size, this will depend really on what you want your sump to do for you, what you want it to fit in it, and the space you can afford for one. a 20 long or 30 gallon tank would be a good sump, but the larger it is, your only adding more water volume to your overall system creating more stability. larger does have downfalls though, as more surface area = more evaporation, larger water changes/doses, and may take more to keep your temps right ( depending where you are in the world )


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## cro117 (Jul 12, 2011)

adding to onefish2fishs good advise, please do go with a deep sand bed, this will ive you anaerobic bacteria which will complete your biological filtration and eliminate your nitrates. as fr as the substrate you will need to go with something fine, sand if you have too, but i would suggest "mud." i tend to take for granted how easily it was to obtain mud when i worked at a store that specialized in mud sumps.

if you go with pure aragonite it can cease up and turn into one big block of cement, i forget the term offhand. that being said aragonite can work, just be aware of this. also i would add a light and some macro algae.


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

adding to this, even if its just for others to gain ideas.










here is a shot of my current sump. the drain line will split into two pipes, one leading to the left of the sump and one to the right. this method allows my skimmer section ( left side in the photo ) to be fed water to be skimmed and my refugium section ( right side ) un-skimmed water to feed my refuge. the down drain will also lead into the clear box you see in the back right corner. this allows the water to enter without much force. by doing this im also getting away with having only one bubble trap ( on the skimmer side ) and i can keep my deep sand bed from getting blown out. the return pump will be in the center, along with a heater. 
the sump light was an easy, cheap but effective build. the bulbs are 2 ( i can switch back to one if needed ) daylight flouros. i plan on running this light on a timer set opposite when my display tank lights are on. 
a quick fix to this would be a clamp on work light, which you can even split with the " Y " socket piece and have 2 bulbs but theres a risk of that " un-clamping" and failing into your sump...might be wise if you use a clamp light to screw it into position or use some sort of mounting bracket. just some ideas.


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## cro117 (Jul 12, 2011)

would it be possible to house the return pump in the skimmer compartment instead?


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

if your asking if both the skimmer and the return pump can be in the same section, id would say no because this is going to leave you with a display of microbubbles.

if your asking if you could switch their sections, yes but i personally like to split my drain line to feed both sides with the return in the middle.

if i were to switch them i think i would have 

| drain/skimmer | refugium | bubble trap | return pump/heater |

i guess depending how fast your drain/return pump will be which will decide how fast water will be moving through your sump. i say this because your refuge needs to be fed and if your skimmers doing a great job it may deprive your fuge of food, but if waters moving through alittle faster hopefully enough reaches. im sure your fuge would be alright setup like this but ive always split my drain because ive just felt it was better to feed both. my last tank actually had 2 drain lines anyways. 
if i set up my sump with drain/refugium i would include a box to reduce the water force. another alternative could be a larger PVC that the drain comes down into. 
this would mean the skimmer would be in your middle section which you want to make sure your bubble traps are made right so your not left with a tank full of micro bubbles. again just some ideas.


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## cro117 (Jul 12, 2011)

i was just asking because if it were me i would knock out that center panel and open it up for more sandbed/algae. the skimmer and the return pump would be fine together as particles are already passing through the sand bed area first and depositing larger particles of waste were they will feed your dsb. my only concern is that the three pane section might be a little high.

as far as flow 4-5x the main tanks volume turning over every hour should work. some say slower, some say faster. i think the rate of diffusion probably isnt affected too much either way, but i haven't tested it much.


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

all of the baffles are alittle on the high side but im not worried much. this is going on http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/saltwater-fish-pictures-videos/of2fs-new-tank-round-3-a-71255/ and was previously running on a 5 foot long 90 gallon and handled power outs with that. the extra height works for the fuge side because it will have 6 inches of sand. the only issue with the high water level is the skimmer sitting so low. no worries as i dont even know if im using this skimmer yet :wink: but since funds are tight i might just have to  but im going to raise the skimmers height at that point.


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## cro117 (Jul 12, 2011)

hey, since you just mentioned funds, and you seem to know about the principles of a deep sand bed this might be a good place to bring up an idea i have been tinkering with, though i should really start a new post for it. 

anyway, what do you think of the idea of a dense sponge, maybe with a ppi i of like 40 as the dsb media? im not even trying to suggest that it would be as effective as mud, or that it would even be able to offer many of the same benefits, but as long as there is enough of it, maybe just the typical 6", then conditions should turn anaerobic the same as and substrate media. i mean you can do a dsp with course gravel if it is deep enough.


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

the issue i see with the sponge is that i think it would allow for to much to collect and break down that it might be counter productive. i think you would have to rinse the sponge to frequent to keep any good bacteria alive. i cant knock it till i try it, this only seems logical to me. i think ill stick with sand.
the gravel, crushed coral would work well too, however the cracks in these substrates are to large, and the flow of a refuge is just to slow to prevent it, and they turn into nitrate issues.
for the record, i personally would avoid crushed coral, gravel, bio balls, bio wheels, and anything that has a chance to collect debris and offer time for it to break down into excess nutrients like nitrates and phosphates.


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