# yellow tang acting weird



## thebigzone

hi this is my first time posting on this web site. i have had my Yellow Tang for about 8 months and all of a sudden he has been rubbing both sides of his back end against the glass turning it into like a red rash. he only does this in one spot and no were else in the tank. i have had the tank for about 2 years i have a clown, six line wrasse, sunrise dottyback a cleaner shrimp 5 turbo snails 4 hermit crabs and about 8 pieces of coral. my water is almost perfect besides my calcium ph 8.2, ammonia 0,nitrite 0 my calcium is only about 300ppm. my tank siz e is a 30 gallon and i have about 25 pounds of live rock and two big caves he can go in, and i feed him mysin shrimp twice a day and a piece of seaweed twice a day. i have a qt tank but had bad luck with it (only one out of four fish made it out alive) what do u think i should do, and is wrong?

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## njudson

Any recent additions to the tank?


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## bearwithfish

njudson said:


> Any recent additions to the tank?


barring this i wonder if it could be a new additive or salt mix, source of water, or another changes in care or environment?


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## thebigzone

My sunrise dottyback about 2 months ago
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## bearwithfish

no i would not think that was recent enough to be an issue.. oh does the dotty have any issues? perhaps its parasitical.. but if the dotty is doing well ......

perhaps some of our more experianced members will be on inthe next day or two to help ....

nick... what are your thoughts here man... should we PM a few of the guys and see there thoughts on this?


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## thebigzone

And I have just started useing reef complete to raise calcium a week ago
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## bearwithfish

a slow rise or did you attempt a large dose??? i know when i over dosed my first time a few of my fish got squirrelly and acted wierd untill they became accustomed to the new parameters...


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## thebigzone

He is doing well he has a little white spot even at pet store hasn't gotten bigger hasn't been itching eats great aggressive toward wrasse and tang has an apittight like u wouldn't be leave he eats everthing
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## thebigzone

I have add the reccomended dose a cap and a half twice a week
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## njudson

Check out this link. It is a flow chart to diagnosis fish skin disorders. Fish Skin Disorders
I'm no expert at all but if you post a pic the people who know more might be able to help ya


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## bearwithfish

njudson said:


> Check out this link. It is a flow chart to diagnosis fish skin disorders. Fish Skin Disorders
> I'm no expert at all but if you post a pic the people who know more might be able to help ya



WOW thats a great resource!!!!


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## reefsahoy

how big is the tang? it's recommended that you have at least a 75 gallon tank (on the small side) to keep a tang and yours is less than 1/2 that with 25 lbs of live rock gives little room for swimming and grazing for a tang. Now i'm not a tang police but if your tang is big that could be your problem. He may be stressing out from the limited space he has. if he's too big and you feel you have to keep a ang i'd suggest you trade him in for a baby tang at your local lfs. I've got a 100 gallon and when mine gets big i'll trade him out for a baby. i think the babies look nicer anyways.


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## bettababy

I was asked to offer my input in this thread, so I will do what I can. I willl 2nd the question about how big the tang is? Also, I didn't see a nitrate reading? 
I notice that is quite a bit of fish in a 30 gallon tank, so I would expect that is having something to do with the problem, but without a photo, there isn't a whole lot anyone can do. A clear photo of the tang, a clear photo of the whole tank, and if you can get clear close up of the injured area of the fish and also the white spot you mentioned... that will tell a lot more and make for an easier diagnosis.

Are there any other symptoms? Eyes are clear? Gills are normal, not inflamed or irritated? Fins clamped? How do the other fish look and behave? 
How large is the quarantine tank? Have you tried any medications or treatments thus far? If so, what have you tried?

As I said, I will do all I can, but need a lot more info and some photos to do much of anything.


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## thebigzone

Ya I do have a young one he is only about 2inches and he looks exactly the same as when I got him I just did water change tonight I like to test water day after I will let u know the results tomarrow
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## reefsahoy

thebigzone said:


> Ya I do have a young one he is only about 2inches and he looks exactly the same as when I got him I just did water change tonight I like to test water day after I will let u know the results tomarrow
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
typically if you did something that remedied the problem you won't see the effects for quite awhile sometimes months. especially a sick fish symptom. just like when you get the flu and take medicine, you'll need at least a week to see the results and you know you're taking the right medicine and dose for that sickness. so we'll need to know the livestock list and order of which you added, detail info on your setup and routine maintenance, all parameters and how often you check, where are you getting your topoff water and is it ro or some type of filtered water, and type of food and how often you feed, then maybe we can make suggestions. When asking a question like that the more info given the better chance someone can help. Reef keeping is still somewhat a touch and feel hobby and no 2 setups are exact. you could have even gotten a sick fish to begin with.


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## thebigzone

Ok my nitrite no2 is 0 ph 8.2 ammonia 0 phosphate 5 calcium 280ppm carbonate hardness 214.8ppm nitrite no3 is 160 sslinity .o23 I do water changes once a week with tap water been doing this since got fish tank and I think my no3 is so high bc I just pick out a huge half eaten turbo snail before takeing watet samples
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## reefsahoy

it could be because you are using tap water. even tho you remove chlorine there's alot of other chemicals in the tap. one that comes to mind is chlorimine, phosphate, silicates, etc. if i were you i'd top off with the minimum of distilled water if filtered water is not avail. phosphate and silicates may not be a prob now but it will accumilate and your tank will eventually get hair algae and all kinds of stuff thats almost impossible to control. just my .02 cents


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## thebigzone

So use like bottled water? Bc I think I have hair algae is it brownish redish? Bc that color algse its starting to take over back half of my tank
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## reefsahoy

yup that tap water is an eventual killer. what happens is that phosphate and silicates are in the water and the live rocks absorbs both like a sponge. because phos[hate and silicate are present algae will grow. even if you use phosphate remover at this point the live rock will be leaching phosphate still causing algae to grow. eventually you won't be able to control algae until all phosphate in the live rock leaches out which could take several months. even if you start over and use the same live rock you'll have algae issues. i once had phosphate issues and tried a test because i couldn't figure out where the phosphates were coming from. i made new water and checked phosphate to be 0. then i added live rock and in a day or two i had phosphate in the water leading me to believe the live rock was leaching phosphate. i eventually used phosphate remover for months and then eventually there was no more phosphate. since then i have had no algae in the tank. btw the reason you are measuring only 5 phosphate, which is high, is beacuse your algae is consuming some and eventually the algae will continue to grow at a rapid pace consuming more until you measure 0. this doesn't mean there is 0 phosphate in the water, but it means the algae is consuming it as fast as it is leaching.


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## bettababy

280 is way too low for calcium. The animals, fish, inverts, corals... all need enough calcium for growth and organ function. Ideally calcium should read between 400 - 450. Without the proper amount of calcium in the tank, you are going to have many different kinds of issues, such as death, sick fish, dead/dying inverts... 

And, as I mentioned in my last post, that is too many fish in that size of a tank. Waste issues are going to be a constant issue, even with daily water changes it will be more than the tank can handle, which is already apparent in your nitrate (no3) reading. Either a bigger tank or fewer fish is the answer to that.


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## reefsahoy

bettababy said:


> 280 is way too low for calcium. The animals, fish, inverts, corals... all need enough calcium for growth and organ function. Ideally calcium should read between 400 - 450. Without the proper amount of calcium in the tank, you are going to have many different kinds of issues, such as death, sick fish, dead/dying inverts...
> 
> And, as I mentioned in my last post, that is too many fish in that size of a tank. Waste issues are going to be a constant issue, even with daily water changes it will be more than the tank can handle, which is already apparent in your nitrate (no3) reading. Either a bigger tank or fewer fish is the answer to that.


 
+1 on that. i didn't catch that the ca was that low.


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## thebigzone

Damn I didn't. Know tap was so bad even to thaw out my mysin shrimp I use regular tap water need to put and end to that and would like one of those filter things to filter tap water work and u really think to much fish in tank right now only 4
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## thebigzone

And how do I lower carbonate hardness? Very high I just got reef test kit a week ago not not really fimiliar with it but I have master the other one
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## thebigzone

And I have chemical that raises calcium and says maintains magnesium and is magnesium the same as carbonate hardness?
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## njudson

This does a much better job explaining the basic chemistry at work in our tanks than I ever could.
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...calcium-testing-important-every-marine-33079/


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## thebigzone

Great website but one more small question if I use fitered water do I still use the cholrine remover? I just got prime which removes chlorine chloramine ammonia and detoxifies nitrite and nitrate should I still use fitered water?
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## Pasfur

bettababy said:


> 280 is way too low for calcium. The animals, fish, inverts, corals... all need enough calcium for growth and organ function. Ideally calcium should read between 400 - 450. Without the proper amount of calcium in the tank, you are going to have many different kinds of issues, such as death, sick fish, dead/dying inverts...
> 
> And, as I mentioned in my last post, that is too many fish in that size of a tank. Waste issues are going to be a constant issue, even with daily water changes it will be more than the tank can handle, which is already apparent in your nitrate (no3) reading. Either a bigger tank or fewer fish is the answer to that.


I was asked for my input on this... sorry to take so long to respond, I just got home from Jamaica. ;-)

My initial reaction as I began reading this thread was that low calcium levels, high nitrates, and insufficient aquarium size have resulted in a weakened immunity over a period of time. The scratching behavior is the visual evidence for this. Reading this entire thread, I agree with Dawn word for word on her posts, and would have been posting almost identical responses.

The fact that this Yellow Tang was purchased at a 2'' size and looks the same today as when purchased is a big hint that the environment is to small. This is a fairly fast growing fish and should look much larger with more girth. Tangs growth to 70% of their adult size within the first year of their life, and placing them in a smaller sized aquarium stunts this growth, resulting in internal development issues that inevitably leads to a shortened life. I personally would suggest an aquarium of 6' in length would be wise for any Zebrasoma species of Tang, although I have seen some success in aquariums as small as 75 gallons.

For the record, there are some other things on this thread that I would not initially be as concerned about. I do not necessarily see a problem with using tap water on a fish only or FOWLR aquarium. Tap water in different parts of the world (or country) is treated differently, and an actual analysis of the tap water being used would be needed to have a good discussion on this. For the sake of argument, however, I will suggest that calcium levels under 300ppm could be an indication that something is going on related to the source water, be it the tap water or the salt mix. 

I also would want to dig much further into the conversation about live rock absorbing phosphates. I have been at this hobby a very long time and can't recall seeing anything on this portion of the discussion, not in magazines, books, forums, chat rooms, or trade shows. Unfortunately, I have followed the posts of the member (reefsahoy) bringing this topic up, and I have had great respect for his (her?) experience in this hobby and obvious knowledge base. I am confident that there is information in this part of the discussion that will be beneficial.
Reefsahoy.... are you looking towards phosphates as a potential cause for the rapid calcium depletion?
[We are getting off topic with this I think, and perhaps getting into a very advanced discussion. As a moderator I would like to keep this very brief, or invite you to open a new thread where we can discuss this specific issue. There might be something here that a number of us can learn from. If you do open a new thread, please put a link to it on this thread.]

As a final note on this issue, I agree that pictures of the fish and overall aquarium would be extremely valuable. I can usually gather more helpful information from pictures and water parameters than I can from a conversation, especially when trying to help diagnose a disease or other potential problem.


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## reefsahoy

I was also asked for my thoughts on this.

Pasfur, where in Jamaica are you from? I'm also from Jamaica, The country. No i was not bringing up phosphates as a calcium de[letion issue but rather that using tap may have other chemicals, like flouride, chlorimine, etc that may possibly contribute to fish health for example. simply putting chlorine remover will not remove any other chemicals. He also stated that this is a reef with corals so intense lighting is a requirement so if there is a phosphate issue you will get algae and such (see post 18). 

Yeah i know that there are no articles about live rock absorbing phosphates but that's from my personal experience. for months i could not figure out where i had phosphates entering my system when i first started this tank and one day i decided to try a test from speaking to many people within reef hobby club locally. I made SW using RO and measured the phosphate levels at 0 then i threw a few rocks from my system into that water and over a few days i had readings of phosphates. there is no explaining how phosphate could have entered the freshly made water other than it came leaching out of the added live rocks so that's how i came up with the theory. Then the thought of old tank symdrome came to mind. IMO, if you look at tanks that have algae issues you can almost be certain that they are using tap water for their water source. I used to have issues but since changing to RO/DI, i have no issues with algae what so ever, even when i do water changes once every couple of months.
Just my .02 cents


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## Pasfur

reefsahoy said:


> Pasfur, where in Jamaica are you from? I'm also from Jamaica, The country.


Misunderstanding. My wife and I just returned home to Kentucky from our vacation in Jamaica! Beautiful county. And I so enjoyed the reefs in the morning. More on that later in another post when I have time to discuss.



> No i was not bringing up phosphates as a calcium de[letion issue but rather that using tap may have other chemicals, like flouride, chlorimine, etc that may possibly contribute to fish health for example. simply putting chlorine remover will not remove any other chemicals. He also stated that this is a reef with corals so intense lighting is a requirement so if there is a phosphate issue you will get algae and such (see post 18).


I missed that this is a reef. {you see, this is why this site is so great. I knew that I had to be missing something if reefsahoy was giving advice that I couldn't figure out:-} Yes, I agree 100%, for a reef using RO is really a must. Its to difficult to control algae long term otherwise.



> Yeah i know that there are no articles about live rock absorbing phosphates but that's from my personal experience. for months i could not figure out where i had phosphates entering my system when i first started this tank and one day i decided to try a test from speaking to many people within reef hobby club locally. I made SW using RO and measured the phosphate levels at 0 then i threw a few rocks from my system into that water and over a few days i had readings of phosphates. there is no explaining how phosphate could have entered the freshly made water other than it came leaching out of the added live rocks so that's how i came up with the theory.


Understandable. I would offer that there were organic waste deposits inside the rock which died in transit, or perhaps detritus accumulation that was stirred up in your system with higher water flow. Either could spike phosphates. The same could happen in an older system if the rock was moved around or water flow was drastically changed. Would offer a decent explanation i'd think.

Thanks reefs. ;-)


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## thebigzone

I haven't really move the rocks since I got the coral but i am trying to sent pic to u guys I can get one of tank but can get one of tang sratching he has really doesn't do it any more trying to figure out how to send it
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## reefsahoy

Pasfur said:


> Understandable. I would offer that there were organic waste deposits inside the rock which died in transit, or perhaps detritus accumulation that was stirred up in your system with higher water flow. Either could spike phosphates. The same could happen in an older system if the rock was moved around or water flow was drastically changed. Would offer a decent explanation i'd think.
> 
> Thanks reefs. ;-)


 
Very good points and i thouhgt of all those points, however the rocks were instantly transfered from my old tank to the new tank and so there was no die off in the rock. In the old tank ii wasn't using RO/DI for topoff or salt mix. the freshly made ro/di test salt water was in a new tank with no sand, no live stock, just water circulating and the suspected LR. Within a few days phosphates. I still believe "sponge effect" I know this is kinda change of topic but i figure it was important enough to debate. if you think we are off topic i'll stop posting this discussion here and maybe we can discuss in another thread.

regards
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