# new 250 litre, alkaline water - fish suggestions?



## tanker (Mar 13, 2010)

I went completely crazy at the fish shop today and bought a 250-litre aquarium. I'm going to plant it and move my 5 black neon tetras into it. Other than that, I've no idea what fish I'll get, other than some more cories and some more black neons to make a decent group. I presume I'll have some more options than I've had with my 75-litre and 35-litre (I've got platies, pristella tetras and cories). Any suggestions for hard alkaline water that would get on with my black neons and cories of some sort? The filter is an external canister filter Aqua One Aquis 1200 (still in its box, so I could probably return it if it isn't appropriate) How many more black neons should I get to make a good group? Thanks for any ideas.


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## jclee (Jan 5, 2010)

I'm actually a little surprised that the neons are doing well if the water is alkaline. I thought they preferred slightly acidic water. How long have you had them?

I was going to suggest looking into some of the dwarf cichlid species, but I don't know how they would do with neons. (I've never had them, because my tanks are always too acidic, but I've read that some of the shell-dwellers can live with danios and white cloud minnows, so maybe someone with more experience will chime in about whether they can live with neon tetras.)

Another option that might be safer with the fish you already have would be mollies, but they prefer a salted, freshwater gallon, so you might have to do that.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Do you know your water parameters, that is the hardness (GH and KH) and pH?


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## tanker (Mar 13, 2010)

jclee said:


> I'm actually a little surprised that the neons are doing well if the water is alkaline. I thought they preferred slightly acidic water. How long have you had them?


A couple of months. They are black neons, not ordinary neons. From what I'd read and was told by the aquarium shop guy who keeps all of his store fish in tap water, they can cope with more alkaline conditions than the normal neons.


Byron said:


> Do you know your water parameters, that is the hardness (GH and KH) and pH?


I've never tested the hardness - the guy at the aquarium shop once remarked when testing my water that it was "hard, as expected". I can buy a test kit and test it though. I'll report back. 

The pH was very high when I previously tested it when I set up the tank - it was at the top of the chart which only goes to 7.8 (so I don't know if it was higher than that), I just tested it again and I'd say it was 7.3 (although I find it very difficult to differentiate between the colours on the chart. I might also buy a better test kit this afternoon as well. I have some driftwood in my tank which may have brought it down a bit??


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

tanker said:


> A couple of months. They are black neons, not ordinary neons. From what I'd read and was told by the aquarium shop guy who keeps all of his store fish in tap water, they can cope with more alkaline conditions than the normal neons.
> I've never tested the hardness - the guy at the aquarium shop once remarked when testing my water that it was "hard, as expected". I can buy a test kit and test it though. I'll report back.
> 
> The pH was very high when I previously tested it when I set up the tank - it was at the top of the chart which only goes to 7.8 (so I don't know if it was higher than that), I just tested it again and I'd say it was 7.3 (although I find it very difficult to differentiate between the colours on the chart. I might also buy a better test kit this afternoon as well. I have some driftwood in my tank which may have brought it down a bit??


It is useful to have a good pH kit on hand as this is something that should be periodically checked. For hardness, once you know the tap water numbers you may never need a kit unless you intend altering the hardness of ocurse. For hardness I suggest getting the numbers from your water supply people and save the emoney for the kit.

Deciding on suitable fish (the initial question posted) depends upon these numbers.


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## tanker (Mar 13, 2010)

I think the kit I have is ok, it's my eyesight that's not so hot. 

Thanks for the suggestion - I'd already thought of ringing the Water Corporation and put in a call this afternoon. Their Water Quality guy is going to ring me back. Interestingly, I asked the guys at the shop if they knew the numbers and one of them said that the Water Corporation says that the pH is supposed to be 7 or 7.1. I'll see what they say when I hear from them, because I'm pretty sure it tests higher than that. When the guy at the aquarium shop tested my water, he tested mine and theirs and the pH of both was about 7.6 I think (from memory).


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

tanker said:


> I think the kit I have is ok, it's my eyesight that's not so hot.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion - I'd already thought of ringing the Water Corporation and put in a call this afternoon. Their Water Quality guy is going to ring me back. Interestingly, I asked the guys at the shop if they knew the numbers and one of them said that the Water Corporation says that the pH is supposed to be 7 or 7.1. I'll see what they say when I hear from them, because I'm pretty sure it tests higher than that. When the guy at the aquarium shop tested my water, he tested mine and theirs and the pH of both was about 7.6 I think (from memory).


It would be good to compare pH then. But make sure you get the hardness, both GH and KH if possible, and the numbers. These are closely conected to pH, and it is possible to alter pH naturally but the GH and KH will tell you/us how "easy" or "difficult" that will be.


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## tanker (Mar 13, 2010)

Ok. I spoke to the water quality officer. He said that the (average?) pH over a 2 year period is between 6.9 and 7.7, His recent testing was 7.5.

The water hardness over a 2 year period is between 120 and 165 ppm or mg/L. He didn't know what gH or kH were. He told me that the water hardness figure above was for CaCO3 (subscript 3, I don't know how to type them on this computer). 

Is this of any use?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

tanker said:


> Ok. I spoke to the water quality officer. He said that the (average?) pH over a 2 year period is between 6.9 and 7.7, His recent testing was 7.5.
> 
> The water hardness over a 2 year period is between 120 and 165 ppm or mg/L. He didn't know what gH or kH were. He told me that the water hardness figure above was for CaCO3 (subscript 3, I don't know how to type them on this computer).
> 
> Is this of any use?


Yes, perfect. CaCO3 is the periodic element indicator for calcium carbonate (KH), which is exactly what we want to know. So a hardness of 120-165 ppm which is approximately equal to 6-9 dGH/KH is soft to medium hard water. Quite perfect actually. It will have some hardness but not enough to prevent you keeping soft water fish.

The pH in a stable aquarium will slowly lower as the biological processes work. The hardness of the source water determines how much this will occur, and how fast. The softer the water, the more it will acidify because the hardness i st he buffering agent and the less hardness, the less buffering.

In your case, regular partial water changes weekly of 50% should work fine to maintain a fairly stable pH. The fluctuating pH of the tap water should not pose a problem either, as the tank will tend to lower (I would estimate it will go down around pH 6 on its own) and a water change with water around 7 or slightly above will raise the tank a bit but not enough to cause problems. And weekly water changes will keep this balanced over time. Much the same in my aquaria.

This opens up almost limitless possibilities for fish in a 250 litre (approx 66 gallon) aquarium. Any of the fish in our profiles with water parameters reading soft to moderately hard, acidic to slightly basic will work. Avoid livebearers as the acidic softer water will not suite them long-term.

Byron.


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## tanker (Mar 13, 2010)

Thanks, Byron. 



Byron said:


> In your case, regular partial water changes weekly of 50% should work fine to maintain a fairly stable pH.


That's a lot of water... We have water restrictions. Maybe not such a great idea getting the new tank, after all. :-(


Byron said:


> as the tank will tend to lower (I would estimate it will go down around pH 6 on its own)


It hasn't seemed to have dropped that much on one of my existing tanks at least. I'll test the other one and see what's going on there. 



Byron said:


> This opens up almost limitless possibilities for fish in a 250 litre (approx 66 gallon) aquarium.


 It's good that I've got options, but it makes it harder when you can choose from so many fish. I'd like to have lots of different things, but the tank is still only so big.



Byron said:


> Any of the fish in our profiles with water parameters reading soft to moderately hard, acidic to slightly basic will work.


I should be able to get silvertip tetras then. I liked the look of them before.



Byron said:


> Avoid livebearers as the acidic softer water will not suite them long-term.


That's a shame. I love my platies. 

I find it very confusing. A guy at the shop has mentioned that the water is hard. Even the other day when I was looking at buying the test kit, he said that the test would read high. They should know, they are testing all the time.... Well, it's a good thing if the water isn't as alkaline as I thought, because it opens more options as to what fish I can get. Now I just need to find out which ones will get on together and how many I can fit.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I'm assuming the numbers from the water people are correct. You might want to get a sample of tap water tested somewhere just to confirm.

Water changes depend upon two prime things: fish (both number and type) and plants. If live plants are present and in numbers, fewer water changes are necessary. Moderate fish load also means less water changes. However, the down side is that the pH will slowly lower and not have anything to stop it. I have that in my tanks, even with weekly 50% water changes because the hardness here is near zero so there is very little buffering. My aquaria are at pH 5 or less, but I have wild-caught soft water fish. In two aquaria I buffer the water myself with dolomite and crushed coral in the filters; just half a cup or less maintains a stable hardness at 2 dGH (from < 1 dGH out of the tap) and a pH of 6.2-6.4.


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## tanker (Mar 13, 2010)

Thanks. I find it all pretty confusing. The water in my existing tanks has the same pH as the tap water, so it presumably hasn't been falling.

Here's what I've been considering:
5 neon rainbow
1 angelfish (or something else? Gold gouramis look nice, but it seems they can be a bit aggressive? More aggressive than angelfish? Would an angelfish be ok in this size tank?)
7 black neon tetras (I've got 5 already)
5 panda cories (already have)
5 other sort of cories
another school of tetras or something? What?

How does this sound? Enough? Too many? Compatible? Ok with my water? 

I've planted some plants - ambulia, ludwigia, water sprite (that's what the guy in the shop called it, although it's different to the one I have in my other tank, it's a finer leaf), Brazilian pennywort and some other plants which weren't labelled (I'll post photos in the plants sub-forum to find out what they are and whether they are suitable). 

Any feedback gratefully received.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

How long has the tank been running with fish? I reset my 70g recently and filled it, the pH of our tap water is 7.0-7.2 but less than 1 dGH and KH, so no buffering to speak of. It is now 2.5 weeks and only yesterday did the pH lower to 6.6 (having been 6.8-7.0 previously). So it takes some period of time, depending upon the hardness and other factors. In the past I have found tanks tend to settle in 2-3 months, but again I have near zero hardness and you have some so that will slow the lowering.

On the fish. Angels are shoaling fish--I just revised the profile day before yesterday, so have a look, I took considerable care to include details on compatible fish, etc. You will probably have the Scalare Angelfish, Pterophyllum scalare; it is the most common, widely available, and tank raised unless you have an importer. The other two species, P. altum [a real beauty] and P. leopoldi will be wild caught and very rare, although Altums are showing up here more frequently, all direct imports of course. Shoaling--that means a group, 5 would be fine in a 66g (250L) tank. Never, never alone, these are social fish and should only be out of a group when spawning. The aggressiveness is covered in the profile, note esp the bit about getting all five at one time to avoid problems with dominant fish.

Gourami are very similar, note the profile info. I do not recommend combining gourami and angels, so in my view one or the other. Rainbows the same, either make them the "centre" fish, or the angels, or the gourami. Note that Rainbows prefer basic harder water, the only fish in your list that does, so given the water parameters that you have I would tend to stay away from Rainbows in this tank.

Tetra are fine, just get them sooner rather than later as small tetra can become snacks for angels [if you go with them]. Other tetras in the Rosy Tetra clade [Hyphessobrycon species, several are in the profiles under characins, use the scientific ordering and they'll appear consecutively in the list] are good with either angels or gourami. And corys, fine. Groups of five per species is ideal.

You have room for some other "odd" bottom fish, like one of this or that. Whiptail cats, a smaller-sized pleco (some max at 4-5 inches; the common pleco is 18 inches, not good in a 66g), etc. Corys manage fine with any of these, and I always like some bottom interest. Hatchetfish for the top, but not with gourami; angels are OK with the larger hatchet species like the Silver Hatchet, although in Carnegiella the marbles would probably do OK, Carnegiella strigata.

On the plants, the Water Sprite may be Ceratopteris thalictroides which is finely pinnate compared to the more common (and lovely floating plant) Ceratopteris cornuta. And floating plants are a good idea with all forest fish including angels and gourami.

Byron.


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## tanker (Mar 13, 2010)

Thanks. 



Byron said:


> How long has the tank been running with fish?


Since early March. 


Byron said:


> On the fish. Angels are shoaling fish


Oh. I thought they tended to fight with each other, that's why I was thinking of having one alone. I read your advice to get a group at once, so that explains that. 


Byron said:


> --I just revised the profile day before yesterday, so have a look, I took considerable care to include details on compatible fish, etc.


Thanks, I've had another look.


Byron said:


> You will probably have the Scalare Angelfish, Pterophyllum scalare; it is the most common, widely available, and tank raised unless you have an importer.


Yes, that's the one they have here. 


Byron said:


> so given the water parameters that you have I would tend to stay away from Rainbows in this tank.


That's a shame. They are the ones I really like.:-(


Byron said:


> Tetra are fine, just get them sooner rather than later as small tetra can become snacks for angels [if you go with them].


Noted.


Byron said:


> Other tetras in the Rosy Tetra clade [Hyphessobrycon species, several are in the profiles under characins


They have some White Fin tetras at the shop and I quite like the look of them. Maybe those?


Byron said:


> You have room for some other "odd" bottom fish, like one of this or that. Whiptail cats, a smaller-sized pleco (some max at 4-5 inches; the common pleco is 18 inches, not good in a 66g), etc


I like bristlenoses; could I have a bristlenose?


Byron said:


> Hatchetfish for the top


Hmmm, I don't think I've seen those here. I was going with the neon rainbows for the top, but if I can't have them, I'll find something else if we don't have hatchetfish. I wonder what....

So, do I have enough room for a shoal of angelfish, 2 shoals of tetras (I've already got black neons) AND something for the top, or am I misunderstanding?


Byron said:


> On the plants, the Water Sprite may be Ceratopteris thalictroides


Yes, that looks like it, thanks.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

My advice is always select fish with near-identical water parameters; it makes life so much easier in the aquarium. That's why I do not endorse Rainbows in this instance.

A group of 5 angels, your 7 black neons, a group of 7 of the Rosy Tetra clade [and yes, the white-finned is one of these, without more info I can't say if it is Hyphessobrycon rosaceus or the (recent) "white fin" variant], 2 groups of 5 corys, a BN or another "oddity", and a group of 7 hatchets sounds fine in a 66g planted aquarium with minimal filtration and floating plants. It may seem weird, but these last two items are very significant to the success of such fish. Scientific studies are now beginning to show that significant water flow from filters in tanks with forest fish is stressful and this can lead to shorter lifespans. And floating plants shade the light for these fish that do not occur in brightly-lit environments.

I've posted this some time back, but here is a short video on angels in one of their habitat rivers. Note they are in a shoal, and among thick branches for protection--and it is very dark, and this is at mid-day in Amazonia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tysGxRYRubk


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## tanker (Mar 13, 2010)

Byron said:


> My advice is always select fish with near-identical water parameters; it makes life so much easier in the aquarium. That's why I do not endorse Rainbows in this instance.


Yes, it makes sense (but I still want them:lol



Byron said:


> with minimal filtration


The filter does 1200L/hr. It comes with a spray bar and a duckbill. I've just used the duckbill. Is this ok? So I shouldn't get an airstone?



Byron said:


> and floating plants.


Maybe I need something else as well. It'll take a while for the pennywort to reach the surface, I suppose.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Pennywort makes quite a good surface plant if just left to float (entire stem). The leaves will all turn to face upward with the roots extending downward, and then it grows along the surface. I'm using this now in my 90g and it is quite lovely. One advantage is the lower leaves never die back because, well, they are not "lower" on the surface.

Can you explain the "duckbill"? And no, you certainly do not need or want airstones in planted tanks.


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## tanker (Mar 13, 2010)

I bought a couple more plants today and got a water sprite (the other one you mentioned, not the fine-leaved one) to float. I've planted the pennywort, but I could always pull a bit up as well. 

The duckbill is just an attachment at the end of the filter outlet shaped like a duck's bill (narrow on one end, fanning out on the other) EDIT; a rather odd duck, though. The water from the filter comes out of it and is dispersed in the fan shape. 

The white fin tetras are more expensive than the other tetras. I am thinking I might get black skirt tetras instead. 

Also, the hatchet fish can be specially ordered, but they are also expensive. We have gold medakas available here and they seem to be surface dwellers. What do you think about getting them instead of hatchets?

The light I bought says to only have 8 hours light a day so I'll do that and see how it goes. I'll soon find out if it isn't enough, I suppose.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

On the light, I suspect the manufacturer is thinking plant-less tanks; light on a tank with no live plants means algae. If the light is suited to the tank, it should be on for 10-12 hours daily, using a timer so it is consistent (this is important for fish and plants).

On the filter, I would use the spraybar at one need, with the filter intake at the other end if that can be done. The pint is you want as little water flow as possible, both for the type of fish you are intending (forest fish) and plants. However you achieve this is up to you, but from what you've mentioned I would think the spraybar is the best way. I have mine along the end wall with the row of holes directed against the glass to further reduce the flow impact. Works very well.

If you are getting angels, I would not recommend black skirts. They are nearly identical in pattern and colour, so no contrast, and they can be nippy.

Ceratopteris is ideal, you won't need Pennywort floating as well. The former will cover the surface completely once it is established, and in my experience this is 2-3 weeks then bang. I'm usually pulling out a handful every water change. Daughter plants will form on the leaves, I pull these off when they are maybe 3-4 inches and float them and depending how many, I chuck the parent plant. Surface plants grow very fast, because they are close to the light, they obtain CO2 from the air (so no issues like submersed plants with slow CO2 uptake) and the nutrients from the water column (liquid ferts mandatory).

I have never seen medaka to my knowledge, at least if I did I never paid much attention. Odd that I can find out so little about them online too. What I have tracked down is that they are small (4 cm) and occupy all water levels. With angels I see problems here.

One needn't get all the fish at once; I have waited months to find what I wanted. Just plan for it, and don't overload the tank with "others" to make up.


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## tanker (Mar 13, 2010)

I originally set up the spraybar, but the fixtures aren't very good so I swapped it for the other one. I know from my other tank that it also gets clogged up a lot with plant debris and stuff. 

There's a fish compatibility site I looked at and it said black skirts were compatible with angels. Sigh. I wish it were easier to know things for sure instead of getting conflicting information from different sources. 

I am now wondering whether the angels would have enough room. With this enormous bit of driftwood and rocks I've put in there, there might not be enough room for fish that get so big. 

What's available is pretty much what's available. You can order stuff that they don't keep in stock but what they keep in stock is pretty much the same sort of stuff. I don't want to spend a fortune on special orders only to have them die. Losing a $3 fish is easier than losing a $14 fish.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I note in our profile on black skirt tetra (which I wrote) it includes angelfish as companions; it also mentions fin nipping if there is not a large group of the tetra. The sedate behaviour of angels is somewhat enticing to other fish, and any that "might" nip, might. Or they might not. I would avoid black skirts more on the similarly of appearance than anything else.

The only thing that should clog a spraybar is algae; brush algae loves to grow in filter outlets due to the current. I remove mine probably once every 3-4 months and run a brush through it and use an old toothbrush to scrape the outside. The filter media should be capturing any plant material that gets drawn in to the filter.


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## tanker (Mar 13, 2010)

It doesn't get clogged, but it does get stuff in it. I shouldn't have said "clogged", but it does need cleaning out with a brush. It could be off the java moss or maybe it is algae as you suggest?? The filter in my 75-litre tank has the spray bar above the filter material, so any bits of stuff drawn up by the intake will get caught in the tube and need to be cleaned out (of course the cap on the bottom of the filter intake should catch all of the gunk, so maybe it isn't stuff from the tank, but algae as you suggest?).


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## tanker (Mar 13, 2010)

*photo of new tank*

Photo of tank. Is there enough room for the fish you've suggested Byron. There's quite a lot of "stuff" so the capacity of the tank isn't as high as it would be without the stuff, I suppose? I've tied the driftwood to a rock because it floats so there's one more rock than I wanted. (I need to get another plant for in front of the filter intake, and maybe something else in front of the heater.)


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

The more plants the better, yes. But those you have will settle and grow and fill that tank to some extent. I always end of pulling out several plants as this happens.

That's a nice aquascape. There's room for what we've been talking of. By the way, if you prefer Rainbow, get Rainbows instead of angels. Everything else pretty much stays the same.


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## tanker (Mar 13, 2010)

Byron said:


> The more plants the better, yes. But those you have will settle and grow and fill that tank to some extent.


Hopefully they'll grow The plants I put in my other tanks (yes, I planted the smallest as well, once you get started you can't stop) are doing ok, so I'm encouraged by that. The ambulia seems to grow like a weed (well, grows well, at least) so it shouldn't take long for the back to be covered up. If things don't progress as quickly as I'd like, I could always get some more. The plants in our shops are all small though, so there's no real instant landscape with what you plant, you still have to wait. 


Byron said:


> That's a nice aquascape.


Thanks. I'm happy with it, I think it looks ok (and I'm the one who has to live with it). 


Byron said:


> There's room for what we've been talking of.


Great, thanks. 


Byron said:


> By the way, if you prefer Rainbow, get Rainbows instead of angels.


Ooh, rainbows Thanks. I think I will, although now I've been thinking of angels I like the idea of them too. The rainbows seem to be more compatible with other tetras which gives me more options than the expensive white fins. And it looks like I'd be able to keep my guppy (I'd forgotten about him!) if I get rainbows. 

I saw a marbled hatchetfish at the aquarium shop yesterday. They are very odd-looking fish. They look like they are the wrong way up. I won't mind having them, I just wish the things I want to get didn't turn out to be the most expensive things in the shop.... I don't mind so much if they do well, but it can get very expensive very fast if they die. Not that I'm pessimistic, or anything:lol:

Thanks for your help, Byron.


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## tanker (Mar 13, 2010)

*More questions*

(I wish we didn't have a time limit on editing....)

I'm considering either lemon tetras or black skirt tetras? Should they be ok?

Also, would zebra danios work instead of the hatchetfish? 

Would my guppy potentially be ok in there with the tetras? He's currently on his own (guppy-wise) with my black neons. They get on well, he schools with the neons. Nobody seems nipped at all.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

tanker said:


> (I wish we didn't have a time limit on editing....)
> 
> I'm considering either lemon tetras or black skirt tetras? Should they be ok?
> 
> ...


Depends. Are we now thinking Rainbows and not Angels, or still Angels (maybe)?

Zebra danios with Angels, definite no, they are too active. Remember, Angels need quiet companions similar to themselves, nothing boisterous or active. They are sedate, regal fish that deserve what they expect.

Guppy is fine with most of these (Angels can be trouble though, both ways), but water parameters are different; but your near-neutral will work for the time being. But if it does become slightly acidic (which if I recall was the initial thinking here) the guppy would be less happy.

Hatchets need to go into a well established tank. If they do, they are seldom a problem. But in new tanks, they frequently don't last (some anyway). They are very prone to ich, so examine those in the store very carefully if you get any. I have had marbles live more than 8 years. I have also lost many within a few days in new tanks; we learn. Currently I have a group of 14 wild caught marbles in my 115g, they are delightful.


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## tanker (Mar 13, 2010)

I'm thinking neon rainbows with the black neons, lemon or black skirts, cories, bristlenose and zebra danios (and my guppy). 

If I go with angels, I'll stick to the white fins and hatchetfish, black neons, cories, bristlenose (guppy to go back to the shop, or maybe into small tank with a companion - not ideal, though). 

The reason I am not dead set on the white fins and the hatchetfish is because of the price. I'm looking at other options that would work out cheaper.


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