# total moron cycle question



## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

ok so i have read and re-read a bunch of the other posts but i have to ask i have a very high NH3 reading in a tank that is just finally all set up should i do a partial water change or let things be for a bit longer? here is all my tank info
29 gallon salt water
salinity 1.025 (same as my LFS for ease of acclimation later on)
45 pounds dry rock
2.5 pounds live rock
45 pounds of live sand (pre-cured and ready to go)
KH= 9
PH =7.7
NO2 = 0.3
NH3= 3.0

i added the last of the sand yesterday evening. found some cool life in the tank
snail, feather duster, starfish, and variouse worms.... 
whats the next step P/W/C or sit tight???????:blueshake::blueshake:


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## wake49 (Jul 2, 2008)

Sit tight. You will be fine in a few days, amybe a week's time. Does the water smell at all? The ammonia reading you are seeing is all part of the natural die-off that occurs when you start a new tank. Keep us updated on the levels of Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate over the next few days. Post in the afternoon after the lights come on. And hopefully that pH comes up. What is your calcium level?


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

i dont have a calcium test yet.... my lights go on at 7am befor we leave for the day....yes the water smells i thought it was from the shrimp i put in to get things moving so took it out..... what could i use to raise ph in a stable manner.. i dont want to chemicaly dose as the effects are short lived you know... funny thing just to point it out all my fresh water tanks show a higher PH (generally 8 or so)


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## wake49 (Jul 2, 2008)

Where did you get the sand and dry rock?


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

i have a great local dealer here and i got it from him.. he has been doing salt for a long time and has a really good reputaion in the area... personally i love working with him because he understands the budget issues and is always willing to help me figure out ways to DIY or get things a bit cheaper even at the expence of a sale for himself....


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## wake49 (Jul 2, 2008)

I asked because the "pre-cured" sand can sometimes not be cured, especially after it has been disturbed. If that is the case then the smell might be the ammonia spike from the die-off of anaerobic bacteria.


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

he had it in a large stock tank for a few weeks and there was alot of life in and around it in there.... my biggest concern at this moment is that it looks like i have a thin layer of "dust" all over everything in the tank.. i thin kthis is part of the die off butt it looks like junk!!! i kicked it up last night and tossed some spong in my HOB to catch it and when i took the spong out this morning i had quite a bit but there is again a layer of this stuff on my rock, sand, every where!!! is this normal? i only have cell pix at this moment and i am not sure how to get them on line but if you want PM me your cell and i will send it to you.....


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## wake49 (Jul 2, 2008)

That aragonite sand has a tendency to cause a dust storm and leave a fine film over everything. It will go away, just be patient. Running the sponge in the HOB is a good idea to filter a lot of the waterbourne stuff out and clear up the water.


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

good deal i just take it out each day and rinse it well then add a new dry one and go back and forth each day .. while one dries the other is being used i may change to a filer pad set for a bit though for best flow and capture ability...


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

here is a some what close up of one side of the tank.. you get the idea.... this is the dust like stuff all over the place.. i just spoke with my guy here and we came up with a plan...
1st let it sit for a few days
then if no real change then i am going to hook up a bunch of HOB's with filter pads or floss and shat not then take a net and wave it all up into the water colomn and let the filters pull it out
after the water clears remove all the filters and clean the floss or pads to use at a later time if needed (NEVER let them sit in the tank for more than 24 hours!!)


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## wake49 (Jul 2, 2008)

That sounds like a good plan. I think that you will see an improvement soon enough...


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

man i hope so .. i get so freaked out that i am going to do something wrong you know? i am not the wealthiest person and this much investment scares the witts out of me to think it may crash...


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

here is a full tank shot as of yesterday.... man i love this project!!!!!!!!









sorry for the trashy phone pic...


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

ok so get this i will take pix tomorrow and send them but i got home today and the sand looks all cleared up!!! it looks like sand again and no dust on it.. it is still on my rocks but i think this is a good thing right??
also found some rust looking spots on the LR not the DR yet but its on the move!!!!!!!! i so excited


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

I think you are doing just fine, relax. At this point, take you hand and very gently wave it back and forth just over top the rocks, to gently create current to remove the dusting of sand from the surface. You want to get the sand off the rocks. Another option is to add 2 or 3 blue or red leg hermit crabs to the tank. They will pick over the rock surface and brush off the settled sand.

I want to point out that your rock structure is rather thin. You have enough rock to handle bioload issues, but the lack of a true reef will make it very difficult to accurately help you with fish compatability, especially in a small tank. I would personally double the size of that reef structure. A 25 pound order of Key Largo rock from www.MarcoRocks.com would do you some good.

Another though I had when looking at the tank is your long term plans and filtration. What is your desire from this tank in terms of livestock? Have you selected a Protein Skimmer yet? If not, we can give you some inexpensive options at a great discount from online retailers.

Finally, you need to buy a few more things soon if you are going to be successful. Let me explain. Over the next couple of weeks you are going to see a diatom bloom. This will appear almost overnight and look like rust colored algae that covers your rock and sand. Almost as quickly, about a week later, it will disappear. It is important at this stage in a young tank that you have a handle on the alkalinity and calcium levels. To do this you need a buffer, calcium supplement, and test kits for alkalinity and calcium. Most of us here us the API brand test kits, because they are inexpensive and easy to use. 
http://www.marineandreef.com/Aquarium_Pharmaceuticals_Test_Kits_s/579.htm


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

not sure if you checked my other threads or not but i have like 45 -47 pounds of rock inthere!!!! some got burried under the sand and i am going to rescape it today...


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Yeah, like I said, I'm not worried about the bioload. It is simply the reef structure. I think when you get some more rock above the sand bed and arrange it with more nooks & crannies you will be fine. Think small fish, hiding places, and night time comfort.


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

ok so here is the new reef-scape... pasfer i am not trying to be a bone head i just forget who i spoke to about what i appologize if i came on like a jerk..... so here is the new look and i like it a LOT more... now for the chemestry part of it i am going to retest everything again tomorrow and see where i am at.. i still need a calcium test.. but i was looking in there tonight and noted a lot of shells and that the dry rock is very calcium based wont that bring up the count? and as for buffer i looked at some today and i will check my regular dealer next week to see what is best.. is there another way i can bring up my PH with out buffer? like a rock or other item i could safely add to the tank? thank you again for all your help every one i am truely greatful :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

oh hhhhh yeah about stock... i am intending to do inverts and corals only for now.. i dont know if i want fish in it at all. ... but if i do i have one in mind that i may get in november..... i dont recall the name off hand but they are sooo cool its blue and has like crazy patterns in all sorts of colors all over it.... a blue manderin i think


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

bearwithfish said:


> the dry rock is very calcium based wont that bring up the count? and as for buffer i looked at some today and i will check my regular dealer next week to see what is best.. is there another way i can bring up my PH with out buffer? like a rock or other item i could safely add to the tank?


A very short over simplified version of a long discussion: Organic waste present in your aquarium exists as acids, which remove carbonates. Carbonates make up alkalinity. Calcium carbonate is the dominant carbonate buffer in marine water. Testing for both alkalinity and calcium is necessary to maintain the proper balance of calcium to all the other buffering ions. Without this balance, you don't really have "saltwater", you just have water with a bunch of salts. For example, you could add table salt to freshwater and increase the salinity to 1.024, but that wouldn't be "saltwater" for our purposes. 

No, there is not anything you can add to the tank to release calcium at the pH levels we have in marine tanks. You would have to lower the pH to the 7.4 range. Generally speaking. (Which is why crushed coral is a decent buffer in freshwater tanks.) 

Also, it is important to recognize that you are not adding a "pH buffer". You don't want products such as pH Up etc. You are adding BUFFERS. For example, I use Kent Marine Super Buffer DKH for my buffer. I use Kent Marine Calcium Chloride for my calcium supplement. 



bearwithfish said:


> oh hhhhh yeah about stock... i am intending to do inverts and corals only for now.. i dont know if i want fish in it at all. ... but if i do i have one in mind that i may get in november..... i dont recall the name off hand but they are sooo cool its blue and has like crazy patterns in all sorts of colors all over it.... a blue manderin i think


Sorry to tell you this, but you can't keep a Mandarine in a 29 gallon tank. They require populations of copepods and amphipods to survive which can not be sustained in such a small tank. A tank upwards of 125 gallons or larger is necessary for this small fish. As an alternative, check out some of the Fairy Wrasses, which will provide you with some amazing color patterns (at a cost).


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

ok sooo i have read all of this earlier and re-read the entirety of all my threads... here is what occured this week end and from here on i will take things fresh and back to slow...
as you can see above i have re-scaped the rocks for better flow and appearance.... i also decided that since i have messed with the tank so much that i may have screwed the maturity process.. so i picked up a calcium test (results in a moment) and some buffer from my LFS who does nothing but salt water ( so i would not get the wrong stuff fromthe box guys)... also found this beautiful piece of LR that was very purple and green (its a premium type i dont recall the name) and purchased that also...
so after adding this LR and (oh yeahhh) my little crab buddy i swished up the dust and ran a few HOB's for two hours t get all the mess up... took out floss once everything was clear and ran my tests again
CA= 480ppm (great!!!)
KH= 10
No2= 1.6
Nh3= 1.5
PH= 8.6
so i am certainly still in the cycle.. after a few hours i went back to look at the tank to see what may have come off the LR .... and the tank has already gone to diatom bloom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i mean everything is rust colored!!! in like two hours.... so if i have read all that i have correctly 1) thats really reallly fast 2) its really good 3) leave it alone and wait to see what happens testing every day or two from here out.. am i correct?????


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## wake49 (Jul 2, 2008)

Your readings look fine for where you should be right now in the maturity of the tank. What test kits are you using? Just wondering because the results seem very "accurate." And what is your NitrAte reading? 

When you disturbed the sand, you created a little "die-off" from different levels of bacteria receiving either too much or too little oxygen. That is why the "cycle" seemed to start again. But since it was such a small occurence, the diatom bloom happened again almost immediately.

Leave it alone and just keep posting test results. Calcium and Alk look good!


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

ok i have an API test for calcium. the rest are from another kit i have had for quite awhile and i dont recall the name (i am at work atm).... i will post that later on.. i got the buffer from my LFS (i know we can not advertise so i wont, however this guy is great!!!).. as for accuracy i test everything 2x before i am satisfied that the test worked.... i dont think this test kit has a nitrate test in it but i will buy one in time (probably next week end) in the meantime i intend to use a strip test for it i have at the house ( i know horribly in accurate but its what i have available at the moment)....
i was hoping that the small restart was just what you said and i thank you for confirming it for me.... now i am in the LEAVE IT ALONE stage before i totally botch something up..... LOL


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

oh and another question came up.. (NOTE: i have NOT done this) would the addition of Zeolite assist in the removal of NitrIte and or NitrAte? i tossed in a bag of carbon to polish the water but i was curriouse about this product. i have used it in my submersibles for the fresh water tank but have not heard of it used in a reef.. thoughts???


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## DCR (Apr 24, 2010)

From your numbers, it looks like your ammonia levels are on the decrease, so I'd leave zeolite out of the equation. Zeolite is best applied to uncontrollable ammonia problems. It's better to just let the bacteria take care of it, in my opinion.


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## wake49 (Jul 2, 2008)

I agree.


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

thank you .. i was not sure and wanted to check before any of my "bright" ideas got me into trouble...LOL


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

at this point how often shold i be testing my water? and for what specificaly? the above mentioned tests are what i have available in liquid form. (oh yeah btw its a tetra laboret, i got it as part of a trade last year and it has a lot left in it. again as for financing i have WAY over spent myself in the last two weeks so getting a newer test right this minute is not really possible.... my Calcium test however is new and an API)
so again how often a nd for what? i was thinking Ph to be sure the buffer is holding... should i be running them all?


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

any input??? i have decided to test everything 2-3x weekly.. i am also considering starting a new thread that is stricly a log with pix and stats 1x weekly....


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## DCR (Apr 24, 2010)

I've found that obsessing over water tests and element levels leads to migraines and general dissatisfaction with the hobby, in my experience.

I test my water once a week -- right before the weekly maintenance. In established tanks, even that can be obsessive, if everything is stabilized and running smoothly. Our part, as keepers, is to make sure everything is set up right, and regularly maintenanced. Once we do our part, the little mother-nature-replica tends to keep everything pretty well balanced on her own.

That's just one keeper's opinion -- get several more before making any decisions. Heh.


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

thank you DCR.. and i always try to get as much info as possible .... i am just worried as this is a new set up and i dont want to monkey it up...


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## wake49 (Jul 2, 2008)

I agree with DCR. While things are settling down, testing two or three times a week doesn't hurt. If you just wait for the signs that things are moving along at a good rate, your tests will reflect your progress.

Did we go over tank maturity in this thread? You have seen a diatom bloom, next step will be looking out for microfauna, such as copepods and amphipods.


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

no we have not talked about maturity as of yet.. however, i have read Pasfers posts on the matter and understand that i am in a good place. i just want to find a way to make certain that things are on track.. i watch my tank regularly to see the various forms of life that have sprun up or traveled into my system with the rock and sand... to date i have found some starfish, feather dusters, a snail, i bought a crab, and have something larg in one of my LR that fights when i try to help it out LOL (little bugger wont come out!!! i think its a crab of some sort), i recently found these little creatures moving around that look like a super small (about 1/8th inch) white or brown Hershey kiss, and all sorts of worms (some in the rocks others in the sand some smooth others with many legs and digging a lot).. but as for bug like creatures i have yet to see any... about how long before i start seeing them or signs of them?


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## wake49 (Jul 2, 2008)

You should be seeing them soon. Has any coraline started to form on the glass?


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

not that i can see i still have alot of the diatom on it however and i made the mistake of using a scrubber to get it LOL now i have diatom streaks.... i am getting a box of razors today to clean the front and sides... but no i have not seen any other algae (just what came on the new rock)


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

oh yeah as you know i am a bit ...ummmmm... over zealous when it comes to this particular tank.... so please define soon.. soon to you may mean a week or two soon to me means a hour or a day or two.. LOL i know i know dont rush things ..... i am trying but let us all be honest here i am a 34 year old spoiled little kid trapped in a mans body and i can not help myself at times LOL


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## wake49 (Jul 2, 2008)

I say "soon" because I cannot say "a week or a month or etc"...it will happen soon, though. It would be safe to say that you can quaratine your first fish at the end of the week. What are your stocking plans.?


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## DCR (Apr 24, 2010)

bearwithfish said:


> i recently found these little creatures moving around that look like a super small (about 1/8th inch) white or brown Hershey kiss, and all sorts of worms (some in the rocks others in the sand some smooth others with many legs and digging a lot).. but as for bug like creatures i have yet to see any... about how long before i start seeing them or signs of them?


Your little Hershey's Kiss dudes are chitons. Little tank-scrubbing mollusks that come on live rock. Unless your tank is plastic, there's no need to worry about those.

"All sorts" of worms are fine too. The great and vast majority of marine worms are beneficial scrubbers / substrate cleaners. The only ones you need to worry about are the bright red spiny ones. Those are fireworms -- a specific type of bristleworm that can cause some damage, both to your tank, and you, should your fingers happen to become introduced. Heh. If you see any of those, you might want to do something about it.

The little "bug like" creatures mentioned are pods -- copepods and amphipods. You probably won't see anything like that with the lights on, unless they're really thriving. The best way to spot those is, turn your lights off, wait about two hours, and then take a bright red light to your tank. You'll see them on the rocks, predominantly, but also on the glass. If you have floss filter media in your filtration system, taking that out and allowing some water to run out of it will probably also reveal some.

Chances are, if you see chitons, you have pods, too.


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## wake49 (Jul 2, 2008)

DCR is right. There are definitely pods in the system. We usually tend to wait until they are overpopulated to say a tank is "mature" so that we know the tank is going in the right direction. If you look real close on the surface of the glass, you should see little lice looking creatures. Those are pods.


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

oh you two are great thank you sooooooo much.. about the soon thing i know i was just being sarcastic.... i will look for them tonight heheheh... as for stocking
i am actually not intending to do fich and if i do eventually change my mind it will be much further down the road.. i am gong to do shrimp. crabs. starfish, snails and corals.. i want an invert and coral reef goin on.. i have looked at some fish but i am not really there yet in my mind.... i put together my drip acclimation system last night so that it works better than what i have used to get my crab settled in (scooping!!! ugggg) so i should be good to go when i get some more.. i thin ki am going to get more crabs and maybe a star this week end and set up the drip to acclimate over the course of an hour for them...


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