# Unexplained fish deaths, no symptoms.



## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

Tank is 35 gallons, been set up since October. 

Recently changed to sand substrate in late December, tank came through fine. The tank is moderately planted with Wisteria, stems, crypts, and some swords as the latest additions. Added new driftwood recently, kept an eye out for any fungus or anything and saw nothing, so I don't think that's the cause. Some plants are wild caught so there is a fear of pathogens, but they were cleaned well before addition to the tank and the latest additions were over a week ago. 

Tank inhabitants are/were a Pearl Gourami pair, 8 harlequin rasbora, and 8 kuhli loach (4 adults and 4 juveniles). 

On the first I lost one of my loaches. No symptoms, was eating fine and swimming around great the day before. I found him dead the next morning, nothing unusual about the body. Tank water tested normal, I thought it was just a freak incident. 
However, ever since then most of my loaches have been hiding, which for them is not normal at all. 

On the fourth I switched to a Fluval 206 canister. I went ahead and removed my old HOB filter as I figured since the bacteria is already established on the wood and sand, plus the plants, that I would be okay. Water has tested normal on the API Liquid test kit.

Today one of my female harlequin rasbora started swimming oddly during spawning (more than the regular flipping to lay the eggs under the leaves), and passed soon after. I was very upset and tested the water to check, and had normal readings (Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 5). 

Later on I noticed three more dead rasbora right before bedtime. No prior symptoms and nothing odd on the bodies. 

I'm getting incredibly frustrated and upset and worried, as I have no idea what could possibly be happening. 




It may also be worth mentioning that about 2 weeks ago I noticed white areas on the pupils of my female Pearl Gourami's eyes, and at first worried about a fungal infection but after some research I'm pretty positive that she scratched them on the dirftwood somehow, as the male will sometimes chase her towards the driftwood. It's been healing on it's own and she's showed no symptoms of stress or difficulty swimming or lack of appetite.

If anyone has any advice I'd really appreciate it. I'm honestly near tears. I'd really been thinking I was doing a pretty great job at taking care of these fish, and yet now...I have no idea.

There are pictures of the tank in my thread, Adventures of the 35 gallon if anyone would like to check them out. A few plants have been added since then.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

I'm so sorry for your losses Jen. Wish i could help, but ive not been through anything like this yet, so im no use :-(
My best guess would be the plants.
I was going to say maybe the filter brought something in if you didnt scrub it down etc, as it was second hand, but doesnt explain the loach....so, im stumped :-/
Sowwie :-(


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## essjay (Dec 30, 2012)

That's so sad.. :-( You have a beautiful tank...

When you say your water tested ok, are your GH, PH and KH readings all normal? I'm only throwing that out there in case... Where did the driftwood come from? Is there any possibility it could be leaching something? Have you used a new fertiliser?

Just trying to add a fresh pair of eyes.. so to speak...

I hope someone can help you soonest..


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Maybe should have left the old filter run along with the new one for a few week's or used some of the old filter material with the new filter.
After removing the old filter ,and considering fairly new substrate,is possible that a brief ammonia spike occurred due to loss of bacteria, and affected the fish immediately although symptom's may not have appeared immediately.
Fish seldom get sick,die,overnight.
Maybe something was introduced on hand's into the aquarium like hand lotion,aerosol spray's,soap, perfume,etc.
No one else with access to the tank? (small hand's)
Kuhli loaches I have kept were alway's hidden during the day among the rock's wood so I would not be too worried bout them being in hiding.would be more worried bout them to see them about during the day.
Might perform twice weekly water changes for a couple week's and just monitor the remaing fish were it me.


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

This morning all of the rasbora are dead except for one.

I'm always as careful as I can be about rinsing my hands before placing them in the tank but I suppose it's a possibility that something was introduced...but my Pearls have shown no adverse affects. Then again that doesn't say much considering I just lost 7 rasbora in the space of a day.

I haven't tested GH, KH, or PH in awhile, I'll do all three today before a massive water change. 

The wood leached some tannins as was normal, but only enough to lightly stain the water. I truthfully have no idea if it's the wood or not, but it's been in there for, say, 2 or 3 weeks? Driftwood is from the LFS, it's mopani. I've had two other pieces from there before, both mopani, and they were in there for months. 

I suppose there could have been a spike, but I'd been watching my params to be sure. It is possible. I just...I can't think that with all the plants that a spike would get so large as to kill them. 

No, no one with access except for me and my parents. We do have kids over occasionally but I always make sure they don't venture near the tank, as it's in the back of the house. 

Mine have never been so hidden before, and always came out to eat and investigate the tank. Now I'm lucky if I can even see two of them. I haven't seen a baby in awhile so truthfully I don't even know if they're alive either. 

I feel like a failure.


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

Oh, and the filter was second hand but still in all the packaging. All the media was still in plastic wrap, nothing had been used before. 

The guy said it wouldn't work on his tank because of his stand, so he never used it.

I can't think that it's anything in the tap either, as all the fish in my mother's tank are doing fine.


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

PH - 6.8 - 7.0, normal for my tank.

According to the API Liquid Test, my GH/KH are in the 50ppm-100ppm range. It took 4 drops for KH, and five for GH, if that means anything.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Do test for ammonia and nitrites before you change water to indentify or eliminate possible cause for fishes sudden demise.
Might remove the recent piece of wood though I have never had problem's with mopani wood.
Other's have reported problem's with this particular wood .
Still sound's to me like sudden toxicity from possibly airborne substance or possible nitrite spike but it is only specualtion.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

jentralala said:


> Oh, and the filter was second hand but still in all the packaging. All the media was still in plastic wrap, nothing had been used before.
> 
> The guy said it wouldn't work on his tank because of his stand, so he never used it.
> 
> I can't think that it's anything in the tap either, as all the fish in my mother's tank are doing fine.


So that's where that filter went. Did you rinse the filter and media before using it?... again, doesn't explain the first loach though and the only thinking that should have been in the filter might be some carbon dust and the like anyway.

Major water changes, which you are doing so keep them up, will clear some contaminant assuming that it was somehow added to the tank.

If it is something from the tank.... I'd suggest taking anything out that is new, which sounds like one piece of driftwood. A few weeks might be about right for a fungus growth on the wood. I had that but it was benign and the snails ate it up.

Pull the wood... the fungus might only be on the bottom too, then do a large water change. I think Byron had this happen, he mentioned it a few times, and this is exactly how it goes, unexplained deaths until the wood was removed.

I might doubt the plant pathogen idea, but it shouldn't be ruled out... I don't imagine that you quarantined the plants first? Too many new things close together... just complicates the process of elimination.

Jeff.


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 5

I forgot to mention, we had the house and yard sprayed for pests as per normal on Monday. My room does not get heavily sprayed, and I always leave a window open to disperse any fumes. 

I haven't changed any products except I switched from TetraMin foods to New Life Spectrum pellets on Monday.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

jentralala said:


> Ammonia - 0
> Nitrite - 0
> Nitrate - 5
> 
> ...


My money is on the fumes from pest treatment.


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

All the filter media except the bio material was rinsed. I didn't use carbon in the filter because I had heard that it absorbs plant nutrients, so that basket just has some floss stuff in it. 

Pulled the newest wood piece and am doing an 80% water change. I haven't observed any growth on the wood, but it's possible that something was introduced. I'm not ruling anything out.

One of the plants was placed in a day long quarantine in chlorinated water in a cabinet to help kill off the algae growth. The others...no. I rinse, scrub, and prune them before addition to the tank but again, I'm not ruling it out.


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

Should I be doing daily large water changes to try and clear the water?


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

The house has been sprayed several times over the past few months, it gets done on a regular basis. If it was fumes, I would have thought it would have affected them faster.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Try covering the aquarium ,net's,bucket's,food's, before the area's where these are located are sprayed next time.
Would perform daily small water changes of about 35 % for the next week.
Would use fresh carbon for the next week also to help rid possible residual in the tank. 
No one can say how much residual it would take, or how fast it may affect the fishes but covering the tank's ,equip,food's ,will help prevent it from happening again if this is culprit.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

jentralala said:


> All the filter media except the bio material was rinsed. I didn't use carbon in the filter because I had heard that it absorbs plant nutrients, so that basket just has some floss stuff in it.
> 
> Pulled the newest wood piece and am doing an 80% water change. I haven't observed any growth on the wood, but it's possible that something was introduced. I'm not ruling anything out.
> 
> One of the plants was placed in a day long quarantine in chlorinated water in a cabinet to help kill off the algae growth. The others...no. I rinse, scrub, and prune them before addition to the tank but again, I'm not ruling it out.


Yes, carbon is both not good to use with plants nor is it needed as the plants suck up some of the stuff that the carbon does.

Probably not the plants.... I might bet on the spray as well but the wood has been known to do this as well. How is your tank covered normally, glass lid, hood, open?

The only good thing at this point is that if it was the spray or the wood, water changes will clear it out.

Jeff.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

As mentioned,,I would use fresh carbon in this case to help rid the tank of possible residual's from spray.(Carbon is very good at Adsorbing unwanted pollutant's)
Can pull out the carbon after a week or so and toss it away.
Won't hurt anything to use it for a week.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

1077 said:


> As mentioned,,I would use fresh carbon in this case to help rid the tank of possible residual's from spray.(Carbon is very good at Adsorbing unwanted pollutant's)
> Can pull out the carbon after a week or so and toss it away.
> Won't hurt anything to use it for a week.


Yes, agreed. 

I guess I didn't clarify that I was referring to long term use of carbon as a regular filter medium.

Definitely could help in this situation.

When I setup my canister I kept the carbon aside just in case I needed it for some reason, it is not totally useless, just good when used appropriately, just like prime and other treatments. I use well water and don't need prime but bought some recently to help with potential spikes. If I don't have it, I can't use it if it would be needed.

Jeff.


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

Yes, I still have the carbon in the packaging. I set it aside just in case, I'll add that to the tank. Should I rinse it first? It's in a little black bag. I've never used carbon before. 

The tank is half covered in glass for the light to sit on, the front is left open because the plastic lid broke. I'll be looking in to a full glass cover after this just to be safe. I love the look of an open tank but I'm incredibly paranoid right now. I feel so guilty and awful.

The last rabsbora seems to be normal, although I believe she is a little stressed being "alone" in the tank.


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

I would think that fumes would affect the gourami first, as they breathe air. But I have no idea, really.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

jentralala said:


> Yes, I still have the carbon in the packaging. I set it aside just in case, I'll add that to the tank. Should I rinse it first? It's in a little black bag. I've never used carbon before.
> 
> The tank is half covered in glass for the light to sit on, the front is left open because the plastic lid broke. I'll be looking in to a full glass cover after this just to be safe. I love the look of an open tank but I'm incredibly paranoid right now. I feel so guilty and awful.
> 
> The last rabsbora seems to be normal, although I believe she is a little stressed being "alone" in the tank.


Yes,,rinse the carbon and then place it in the filter.
Might consider covering tank's equip,etc with blanket(s) in future.(when spraying for pest's)
Anything that the residual could have been sprayed on or near, could then be toxic if used in the aquarium.(food's,net's,bucket's,hoses,etc.)
Can't explain why the gourami may not have been affected but it may yet.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

jentralala said:


> I would think that fumes would affect the gourami first, as they breathe air. But I have no idea, really.


The spray doesn't stay in the air like it does in the tank as your home is not a truely closed environment like the tank is. They would have to have been breathing air while the spray was still in the air. I also assume that the spray is some sort of water soluble compound which would tend toward easy absorption when ever it contacts the water so the concentration may be higher in the water too..

Jeff.


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

I just...we've never had this problem before. And the spray is just that jet of liquid onto the edges of the carpet. We've never had this problem before, or even with our outdoor pond that is near the wall outside that gets sprayed. It's not that it isn't a possibility, but...it just seems odd.

I just wish I could narrow it down specifically to one thing. Because now I truthfully have no idea if my tank is even safe, or ever will be.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

jentralala said:


> I just...we've never had this problem before. And the spray is just that* jet of liquid onto the edges of the carpet*. We've never had this problem before, or even with our outdoor pond that is near the wall outside that gets sprayed. It's not that it isn't a possibility, but...it just seems odd.
> 
> I just wish I could narrow it down specifically to one thing. Because now I truthfully have no idea if my tank is even safe, or ever will be.


Do you know what the product is that is sprayed or what they are spraying for specifically? Many are listed as pet friendly... not sure how that translates to aquariums but it might depend upon what the pest is and whether this is a contact treatment or some residual treatment.(sounds like contact) If the fumes are really just the smell as opposed to a fumigation where you need to vacate and leave the house closed for a period then it may not be that at all.

It would be worth a call to the company and ask them what it is and perhaps how it might affect an aquarium.

Jeff.


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