# Swollen gills



## Julie's Julies

I have a female guppy with flared or swollen gills. I cannot get a really good look at her since she is constantly on the move, but as best as I can tell the gills are not overly red nor do they have any white patches or parasites. She is interested in food - at least tasting it - but I have not actually seen her ingest anything for the past day or two. 

The tank is a 5.5 gallon established tank, but it just had a nitrate spike. At least I know the root cause of the problem. Is there anything I can do for her? I really do not expect her to make it, but she is gravid and I would like to see her improve and perhaps have her fry. I've added some aquarium salt to the tank and I have been doing frequent water changes. She's the only inhabitant right now, so I can treat her right in her own little habitat.

If I do lose her, I am going to have to break down the tank, clean it out, and start over since she is the fourth guppy to die. I just cannot get the gravel clean enough after my goldfish were in there. They made a mess and I didn't realize my gravel vacuum was not strong enough to pull out all of the junk they deposited. Hence the poor conditions of the tank.


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## jones57742

Julie:

If it were my guppy I would add Melafix and Pimafix at the recommended dosage.

IMHO using "stronger medications" now will kill your guppy.

TR


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## Julie's Julies

Thanks, Jones. That's pretty much what I thought - meds actually doing more damage than good. I head out tomorrow for the recommended Melafix and Pimafix, if she's still alive by tomorrow. Appreciate the response.[/img]


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## jones57742

Julie:

For my edification please "post on" your observations as well as "how this turns out"

TR


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## willow

hi
just a thought ....
could you not possibly take her out,and place her
in a container(fish friendly)take the gravel out
and give it a clean ?


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## jones57742

Willow:

Thanks a bunch for your last post as the more input I believe to be the better.

I could easily be wrong here but I did not recommend your proposal because:

1) moving fish I believe to be extremely stressful to them and as she described her fish's condition I believed that the move might cause death;

2) cleaning the gravel now is very similar to the cattle already being out in the pasture and

3) as I "do not know what is wrong with her guppy" but from her discourse I believe that medications "stronger than" Melafix and Pimafix will kill her fish.

If I am "saying something here" which you believe to not be correct please post!

TR


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## willow

hi
i do not dissagree with you at all !
in fact i agree.maybe i was a little impulsive.
the reason behind my saying was,that i was thinking
of the gunge that could be within the gravel
not helping the situation.
i whole heartidly(sp) agree with the medicating side
of things too.


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## Julie's Julies

Well, for now, she lives! Thanks again for the comments, all. 

Willow, I had indeed thought of moving her and tearing down the tank, but this posed two problems: 1) as Jones pointed out, moving a fish is very stressful and I have had very poor luck with using hospital tanks. They seem to stress my fish out more than they help. And 2) doing such drastic measures to the tank may kill off the bacterial colony, leaving me with an uncycled tank which would also probably kill off my poor girl. I was appreciative of the suggestion, though!

As an alternative, I have been doing a 25% water change every other day and have been vacuuming the gravel each time. So the tank is now much cleaner than before, and it is improving with each clean. 

I did take her out for a quick second to examine her more closely and still could not identify the exact cause of the gill inflammation other than the water quality problem. I have heard that sometimes an enlarged thyroid can push out the gills, but I don't know if that is her problem or not. 

I will post more as she either improves or continues to deteriorate. The good news is that she does not exhibit any signs of fin rot, which claimed the lives of the other guppies. For this I am extremely thankful!


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## willow

fab news  
keep us updated.


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## jones57742

Julie:

Just thought of something else based on your post:


Julie's Julies said:


> As an alternative, I have been doing a 25% water change every other day


Your profile does not indicate where you live but if live in a "colder region" have you been "letting the exchange water" warm up to tank or room temperature before the WC.

I am asking this because in "colder regions" the water mains are buried much deeper than in West Texas in order to preclude freezing during the winter.

This "extra depth" unfortunately also produces fairly cold tap water "year round".

A 25% WC with 60F tap water into a tank with a 78F ambient temperature will result in an instantaneous 4F drop in the temperature which your guppy is experiencing.

TR


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## Julie's Julies

Yes, varying water temps are a good thing to be on the lookout for. Actually, though, I am in California, so it is really easy to keep my tap water within a degree or two of my tank water. All of it is about 75 degrees. I do appreciate the suggestion, though! I am sure there are things that I have not thought of yet, so keep sending them as they occur to you!


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## jones57742

Julie:

Did the PimaFix and MelaFix work (I really hope!)?

TR


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## Julie's Julies

Yes and no.  The guppy expired last night despite the Melafix and Pimafix. I hated to lose her, but I knew she was pretty far gone and she had definitely stopped eating.

However, I have a fancytailed Ryukin who has had tail rot for several weeks now and nothing seemed to get rid of it. I added half a dose of Melafix, and for the first time since the onset, his tail is improving! The dark edges have cleared up and it appears that the fins are growing back a little bit. I really like that stuff!


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## Julie's Julies

I also went ahead and tore down the tank, cleaned it out, rinsed the gravel, hosed out the filter, and put it all back together. Hopefully that will solve whatever issues it had and I can get more guppies. I do have three guppy fry from a different guppy that I had lost previously, so once it has recycled I might put them back in there and see what happens.


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## jsm11482

Sorry to hear about your lil' guppy. But I hope you didn't clean the tank too much, as to kill all the bacteria and cause the tank to recycle. I would watch it closely for a little while!


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## Julie's Julies

Yes, I cleaned it out REALLY well. It did kill the bacterial colony, but I knew it would, and I didn't know what else to do for it since I've lost four guppies in the tank. If this cleaning doesn't improve things, I might just get rid of the tank all together. 

I am recycling it now, but I don't have any fish in there. Our tap water naturally has ammonia in it, and with a little food in there, too, I hope to achieve a fishless cycling and then add new guppies. Thank you for the reminder to keep a close eye on things!


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## jsm11482

Ammonia in your tap water?!? Is this normal/safe???


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## jones57742

Julie (three items):



Julie's Julies said:


> Yes, I cleaned it out REALLY well. It did kill the bacterial colony, but I knew it would, and I didn't know what else to do for it since I've lost four guppies in the tank. If this cleaning doesn't improve things, I might just get rid of the tank all together.


Please do not discard your tank because of what has happened.

As I have set forth in many previous posts a mild chlorine solution is a very, very good disinfectant for bacteria as well as virus's (and these may "really be" where you problems are coming from").

You just have to rinse the tank, media, etc. very well and then add plenty of dechlorinate when reintroducing tap water.




Julie's Julies said:


> ... Our tap water naturally has ammonia in it ..


Jsm said this but I will reinforce it:
That one just aint happening!!!

If you have a test kit which is indicating an ammonia concentration in your tap water then "chunk the test kit"!

TR

When previewing this post before submitting I realized that a viral infection is the most plausible reason (in my brain) for your problems.

IMHO the tank and appurtenances should be soaked in a "mild chlorine solution" for several days before rinsing.


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## Julie's Julies

Hi Jones, thanks for the advice about chlorinating the tank. You may very well be right about the viral infection. I will see what happens when I reclean it. The reason I would chuck the tank, though, is not because of the fish death so much as the tank is a poor design which leads to fish death. It is a tall, skinny tank (poor oxygen), has no light (difficult to see problems when they arise), and it is plastic (so no heater can be attached for fear of melting the tank). It was a gift for my sons, so that is why I am trying to make it work, but it is frustrating to lose fish just because the tank is bad. 

But about the ammonia in our tap water: yes, there REALLY is ammonia in our tap water! I have used multiple different test kits on our water and others' water and they all show ammonia in our tap water. I have spoken to the Santa Clara Water District regarding the problem. This is the response I was given: "There are no State or Federal regulations about the amount of ammonia in tap water. We are not required to make any attempt to remove it. Furthermore, you should not worry; only drastic amounts of ammonia would have negative consequences. The trace amounts found in your tap water will only cause stomach ache, headache, and diarrhea." Nice, huh?

Brita water filtration, here we come!


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## jones57742

Julie's Julies said:


> Hi Jones, thanks for the advice about chlorinating the tank. You may very well be right about the viral infection. I will see what happens when I reclean it. The reason I would chuck the tank, though, is not because of the fish death so much as the tank is a poor design which leads to fish death. It is a tall, skinny tank (poor oxygen), has no light (difficult to see problems when they arise), and it is plastic (so no heater can be attached for fear of melting the tank). It was a gift for my sons, so that is why I am trying to make it work, but it is frustrating to lose fish just because the tank is bad.


Julie: you are correct based on this post: IMHO that tank was made to "sell" to someone and not to "keep fish in".




Julie's Julies said:


> But about the ammonia in our tap water: yes, there REALLY is ammonia in our tap water! I have used multiple different test kits on our water and others' water and they all show ammonia in our tap water. I have spoken to the Santa Clara Water District regarding the problem. This is the response I was given: "There are no State or Federal regulations about the amount of ammonia in tap water. We are not required to make any attempt to remove it. Furthermore, you should not worry; only drastic amounts of ammonia would have negative consequences. The trace amounts found in your tap water will only cause stomach ache, headache, and diarrhea." Nice, huh?


Julie:

It has been many years since I have read the EPA rules.
If acceptable to you I will have my staff "look into this" when everyone gets off of vacation.
Based on the few books which I read prior to sitting for the Engineering Exams something is "really wrong here": even small concentrations of ammonia are toxic and "not much above these concentrations" they are lethal.

TR


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## Julie's Julies

Jones, that would be great if you want to take the time to look into the water problems. If you need them, I can give you the exact ammonia ppm in the tap water and such information. The lady with whom I spoke about the matter did not seem to be very knowledgeable on the subject, so it would not surprise me if she gave me incorrect information. Thanks!


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## beetlebz

if it helps any, in the fire department we use 1 to 10 bleach to water ratio to disinfect and sanitize our equipment after possible contact with blood (which happens alot at car accidents). id ditch the substrate and everything else id just lightly spray with some 10 to 1 bleach, rinse it out, and after towel drying it, leave it out to air dry. then like jones said, add water and dechlorinate. if theres anything growing in there, that will kill it, fish related or not 

aside from that otherwise redundant information i really dont have anything useful :\ but please keep us all posted as to how you make out!


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## jones57742

BB:

This is just a question here but "what I am accustomed to" is that

1)virtually instantaneous exposure to this concentration of chlorine will obviate bacteriological pathogens but
2)that an extended exposure to this concentration of chlorine will be necessary in order to obviate viral pathogens.

In expiation of 2) above I cannot find in
a) engineering literature relevant to water or wastewater treatment or
b) topic research literature
a quantitative treatise describing chlorine concentration and expose duration for viral disinfection.

If you "have run into one" I would appreciate you posting a link to it.

TR


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## Julie's Julies

Well, I have not yet bleached or chlorinated the tank just yet. I did tear it down, rinse, and scrub it out, sans soap, but I have a question before I reclean it. Without a live host to support either a bacterial or viral infestation, should not either of those two infirmities die a natural death simply because there are no fish to host them? The tank is completely empty except for a thin layer of gravel, two silk plants, and the filter. Can bacteria and viruses live in any of these items? I am intending to leave it empty of all life for a week if not more.


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## beetlebz

to jones..

honestly I dont know where it comes from, but I will ask our exposure officer about the bleach concentration/duration when i see him for resources

to julie

it really depends on the bacteria. not knowing what kind of bacteria it is its just as possible that it thrives on <shrug> pizza. the only way to be sure is to kill em all and let god sort em out


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## jones57742

Julie:

Bacterium: some maybe but maybe not.

Where I am coming from here is that during my very first "algae fighting episode" I initially rinsed my very, very fine mechanical media in tap water and "let it sun on the back porch for periods of generally over two weeks (please note that I have tons of very fine mechanical media, 50Mu and 100Mu, and the back porch would be partially covered with 15 to 20 of these media pads)".
When I ceased the procedure cited above and began soaking the media in a mild chlorine solution "I believe" that I could tell a noticeable difference in the algae removal from the tank water.
If algae can survive in sunlight in this fine mechanical filtration media which appears to be very dry media for a period of two weeks then IMHO a bacterium (although not necessarily all types) can also.


Virus: a few maybe but generally not.

Viral pathogens are "nasty little devils".
Virus can remain dormant in surficial soils (IMHO as well as many other environments) for periods which are known to be at least 21 years prior to infection of a host cell.
Hence my previous question concerning chlorine concentration and chlorine contact times with respect to viral disinfection.

TR


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## Julie's Julies

Wow, I didn't realize all of that! I will work on bleaching the tank.


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## jones57742

Julie:

As I am sure you are aware I spent a "ton of time" in the preparation of and multiple edits of my previous post

BUT
having said that:

I left out one item which I feel is critical and which is why I am reposting.

Chlorine exists in several forms which is toxic to fish.

Once you have the tank and the appurtenances thoroughly soaked and/or cleaned with the chlorine solution and rinsed please put water in the tank in which the appurtenances have been induced and add "a ton" of dechlorinate prior to their use and empty prior to adding the water which you will be using for your fishies.

TR


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