# How to lower pH



## Norbert (Apr 16, 2012)

Hi everybody!
I'm having problems with lowering pH in my planted aqua.
I've tested my pH in tap water and it's 6.4 but in my tank it's 7.6 and for my fish it's too high, I'm looking for something around 7.0

I have 66 gallons
kH 10
GH 16

I've had this aqua running since January/February but my pH stays stable. Any adjustments to lower pH don't work at all (pH Down). When I used it next day result was the same. 
2 weeks ago I've started to use Co2 (home made) but nothing happens.

I've bought recently proper pH 7.0 but I might give it back since it says "not for use in planted aquariums" - not sure why though, I wonder if it will kill my plants or something.

Anyway I don't want to use RO so only options I see it's peat or maybe rain water.
I'm not sure if rain water will help me since my tap water doesn't.
Do you think it'll change anything or I should go for peat?

Only issue I have with peat is that I will need to use it regurarly (when changing water) but I would preffer something more stable.

So since chemistry and tap water doesn't make any difference my question is will rain water change anything, same thing goes for peat?

I've read in book that turf is best way to change pH but I'm not sure how much it will change (too much means lots of dead fish) and I'm not so much convinced since I have high KH and GH.

Any suggestions?


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## thegabzzz (Sep 25, 2011)

My suggestion is to stay away from chemicals as they can hurt the fish. The best idea i have is to add drift wood. Drift wood has been proven to lower ph. It worked in my planted tank.


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## CatSoup (Mar 1, 2012)

I wondered if adding some prime to the boiled tannins from driftwood would lower the ph if added to my tank...


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

KH is the pH 'buffer', so if it is high you can not expect your pH to vary much. Peat and driftwood will both slightly lower pH and slightly soften water, but the degree to which they do that is dependent on your KH. I have extreamly soft tap water, and with driftwood my pH only went from 7.2 to 6.8. Over time, since my KH is so low (2 dKH), in three months it has dropped to 6.4.

When you test your tap water, do you let the tap water sit in a glass for a day? You can also shake it vigorously before testing, this will get ride of any CO2.

If you do not want to use a mixture of RO/DI to lower you KH, then rain water is your best option. You can also boil water to reduce the KH, but that's not very practical for the volume of water you need to do water changes on a 66 gallon tank.

What fish are you concerned about? 7.6 isn't that high, and most tank bred soft water fish will tolerate that, wild caught would be more particular.


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## CatSoup (Mar 1, 2012)

Not trying to thread steal, but it might help the op as well; 
Geomancer (love the AV btw, I am a huge RPG nerd) what about using the water from boiled driftwood? I'm wondering because I would eventually like to keep angelfish.


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## CatSoup (Mar 1, 2012)

And along the same lines, what about these peat products? http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-aquarium/aquarium-safe-98940/


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

First, stop using pH adjusting chemicals. You are literally killing your fish. I'll come back to this.

Second, something in the tank is clearly raising the pH, most likely it is a calcareous substance that is usually the substrate (gravel, sand) or rocks. There is no other way in which the tap water pH of 6.4 could become 7.6, since natural biological processes will lower the pH as the water acidifies (subject to the buffering of the KH) unless this is being affected by minerals. What is the substrate? And are there any rocks?

Third, are the KH and GH numbers degrees or parts per million?

Now, back to the fish and chemicals. These are highly stressful, and while it may not show in the fish, they are being hampered internally and this can be irreversible. You can read about stress here, please do:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-articles/stress-freshwater-aquarium-fish-98852/

I can offer more when I know the above answers.

Byron.


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## Norbert (Apr 16, 2012)

Byron said:


> First, stop using pH adjusting chemicals. You are literally killing your fish. I'll come back to this.


I stopped using this about 2 weeks ago since it doesn't help at all and I'm not a fan of chemistry.



Byron said:


> Second, something in the tank is clearly raising the pH, most likely it is a calcareous substance that is usually the substrate (gravel, sand) or rocks. What is the substrate? And are there any rocks?


I have gravel 3mm (read somewhere that's best one for plants - Tropica Aquarium Plants)
I have 3 rocks quite big (something like a cave, from local pet store), one bogwood and one root (I dig it out from backyard-doesn't harm fish) they've been there for long time and nothing happened untill my mom started to put in more fish ( 13 recently) 



Byron said:


> Third, are the KH and GH numbers degrees or parts per million?


I don't know, I use Tetra test 6 in 1
It's shown as 10 degrees dH in instruction (not sure what that means)

[quote/Now, back to the fish and chemicals. These are highly stressful, and while it may not show in the fish, they are being hampered internally and this can be irreversible. You can read about stress here, please do
[/quote]

I now but I have slightly too high pH for neons.

I have in tank:
red tail shark 2
neons 12
clown loach 3
cory panda 4
sucking loach 2
angel fish 2
danio 4
lamp eye 3
rummy nose 4
kuli loach 1
platy 4 ( tiny ones)
sword tail 2 (males)

I think that'll be it

Recently we introduced new fish (angel fish 2, swordtail 2, red nose 2, neons 6, 4 gourami)
and as I presumed half of them died - 2 angelfish old one and new one, one female swordtail, one neon) red noses seams ok and neons but one gourami looks suspicious.

I observed that in most cases fish swimms just below water level for a day or lays in one place( plant or gravel) and doesn't really eat - next day it's dead.

I don't really know what to think since other fish seams ok, this could be cause of red tail shark chasing other fish on their territory ( doesn't happen all the time cos there's lots of fish) and danios are swimming like crazy (sometimes accidently chase other species). I know it can be stresful and that could be a problem.
I have CO2 (home made - about 1 bubble per second so it's ok -60 to 100 is recommended for my tank) and I had O2 running for 1 hour a day but I've changed it to 24/7

It annois me that every time I set it up to run for 3 hours before air will go through it'll take 2 hours so I plugged that to run constantly. If I'll disconnect that for 10-20 minuts then I'm gonna have to wait another hour to break through water.


I don't think it's a problem with air, old fish never complained and I haven't seen any problems with it. 

It's probably cos of too many fish in the tank and that danios stressing rest but I don't really know what to think. 

All I know is that my pH is bit too high and I would need to lower it.Also I've read in book that for plants I have too high kH and gH (they're ok though)

Also I have media in cover ( that bio balls and ceramic bio rings -I removed carbon cos I have water really clean - just that root iscoloring it a bit)

What seams strange that when I put first fish into the tank (about 8-10) I didn't had any ammonia or nothing - probably cos of that media but still there should be at least something.


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

In regards to fish ... you've managed to get just about everything that doesn't work with anything else on that list 

Okay, so not quite that bad, but close, and a lot of them are shoaling fish (need numbers of 6+ in a lot of cases).

Almost all of them have a profile here, top of the page, blue bar, second link from the left. They will tell you what they are compatible with, their temperament, and the kind of water they need. Even with a pH in the 6's you're going to have lots of deaths with a stock load like that.

As for the pH problem, where did you get that gravel? Pet store, outside, landscaping company? If you bought it in a pet store, was it meant for marine tanks?


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## Norbert (Apr 16, 2012)

It's from local store, normal aquarium gravel but it wasn't been prepared so I had to clean it up and pour boiling water into bucket to kill bacterias. I didn't bother to boil whole gravel since I have 30 kg. That store doesn't have marine gravel 
As for shoaling fish I know I should have 5-6 in most cases and with neons at least 10.....it's really bad mix I know but I'm working on it - for now I think it will have to stay like that untill everything will settle inside.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Norbdert, there are several important issues going on here, please bear with us as we sort them out. And I agree, no more fish until this is resolved.

The fish dying as you described is due to toxins in the water. I'm not sure we can single any one thing out, but it could be one or more of the pH adjuster chemical building up, fluctuating pH (which is far worse than a steady pH even if not in the preferred range), ammonia, nitrite and nitrate from cycling. All of these cause stress, and fish behaving as you've described is one sign of this. My purpose in suggesting the article on stress was so you would recognize how easy it is to stress fish, and this always leads to health issues and if severe enough death, sooner or later. Every chemical that goes into an aquarium is causing stress, as is the combination of fish, having too few of a shoaling species, etc.

Back to the initial issue of the pH being high, now that I have the GH and KH I am wondering if the pH is accurate. When testing tap water pH, you have to take some water and shake it very briskly in a covered jar or something for a few minutes. This out-gasses the CO2. Then test the pH. Try this and tell us what you get; I'm suspecting it may be higher.

You gave me a link to Tropica Plants for the gravel, but I can't see anything about this on that site, which is all in German anyway and my German is not much.

Byron.


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## Norbert (Apr 16, 2012)

Sorry about that website, there is a flag on top right corner if you want to have a look on it.
About that plants here's proper link Tropica Aquarium Plants - ABC
Just few words about plants....
*Substrate*
The bottom layer is fundamental for the development of the plant roots. The gravel grain size varies, but it's important that both water and nutrition can circulate. Gravel with a grain size of 2-4 mm is ideal for aquarium plants. The bottom layer can be supplemented with a nutrient-rich substrate if it has not already been added to the product.

As for ph in tap water you were right...it came in range 7.0 - 7.2 so it's probably 7.0. Below that my test tube would go green.
I'm bit confused that shaking can have so much effect.
So after all it's not that much difference between tank and tap water which is a relief.
Thank you very much for help guys.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Norbert said:


> Sorry about that website, there is a flag on top right corner if you want to have a look on it.
> About that plants here's proper link Tropica Aquarium Plants - ABC
> Just few words about plants....
> *Substrate*
> ...


Gravel is fine (I doubt this is adding mineral, which was the initial issue). If the tank is still higher than the tap, I would remove the rocks, this could be the problem. Aside from this,. let things settle. As previously said, forget the pH adjusting stuff, that is not going to work as you've seen.

Which brings me to the CO2 in the tap water. CO2 acidifies water by causing carbonic acid. Decaying organic matter does this, along with the normal biological actions in any aquarium. So out-gassing the CO2 from the tap water is restoring the actual values.

You might find some background info here:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-articles/water-hardness-ph-freshwater-aquarium-73276/


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## Norbert (Apr 16, 2012)

Geomancer said:


> In regards to fish ... you've managed to get just about everything that doesn't work with anything else on that list
> 
> Okay, so not quite that bad, but close, and a lot of them are shoaling fish (need numbers of 6+ in a lot of cases).


That's how it is when you go to Pets at Home and listen to advise from people working there - in effect you have fish which like soft and hard water.

About that chemicals - I'm having real problem now because I found today on 2 clown loaches white spots.
I know it's starting to develop and it's not an outbreak yet but this could be why my previous fish died too.
White spot cause rapid gill movement which I noticed and problems with breading - some of them been just below water before they died.

I have Interpet Anti White Spot but I'm not sure it's best solution. You'll probably know a lot more how to treath it and which is best and safest way.

I have also 10L tank with platys atm which can be used as quarantine tank but...
If I'm going to cure that fish in quarantine tank that doesn't mean I will get rid of all bacterias in my main tank so I will have same problem over and over. 

What you think guys would be best way to get rid of this bacteria?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Norbert said:


> That's how it is when you go to Pets at Home and listen to advise from people working there - in effect you have fish which like soft and hard water.
> 
> About that chemicals - I'm having real problem now because I found today on 2 clown loaches white spots.
> I know it's starting to develop and it's not an outbreak yet but this could be why my previous fish died too.
> ...


OK, white spot or ich is a parasite not a bacteria. I only mention that because treatments are vastly different for these things.

Clown loach are scaleless fish and thus any chemicals seriously affect them, including treatments. So I would absolutely take the safest approach. This involves raising the tank temperature and using CopperSafe which is the mildest (but still effective) anti-parasitic treatment I am aware of.

I just read through the list of fish (assuming most are still alive) and there are some that have trouble with very high temps so we need to consider that. I would raise the temp to 85F, this is tolerable for the short term with the fish named. Do this via a partial water change, change half the tank water now using a good conditioner and no other substance. Using sufficient warm water in the mix to raise the present tank temp up by say 3-4 degrees F (not sure what it is now, but don't go about 85F), and adjust the heater to increase it further to 85F max over the next few hours. After the water change, dose the tank with CopperSafe according to directions, which I believe is 1 teaspoon per every 4 gallons. Remember the substrate and decor displace some water, so a 20g tank will perhaps have 16 gallons or something. One teaspoon overdose won't hurt, just don't exceed it.

Maintain the temp for a full week starting tomorrow, then turn it down to normal on day 7 by adjusting the heater and letting the tank water naturally cool down to normal over a day/night or whatever. Wait another 4 days and do a 50% water change.

If you still see spots on day 7, leave the heat at 85F for another 4 days, then reduce it as above. If there are still spots, post on here and I'll take you beyond. This shouldn't be necessary, I've had a couple of bad bouts of ich but never had to go past the week with this method.

Ich (white spot) is caused by stress, nothing else, just chronic stress. Stress occurs from many things, including using all these chemicals previously. The red tailed shark also will cause stress to loaches. Clown loach are highly susceptible to ich, some fish are, some never seem to get it. Please read the article on stress as it will provide the background why this is so critical:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-articles/stress-freshwater-aquarium-fish-98852/

Byron.


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## CatSoup (Mar 1, 2012)

I did a little experiment with my API PH test and boiled off tannin water. I boiled a peice of new driftwood until the water looked like coffee and then tested the ph. No dice. It's exactly the same as out of the tap. I Looks like buying RO water is the only way to go.


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## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

I collect rainwater for one of my aquariums and mix it with the tap. 

As long you don't live in a big city or next to a factory, I consider it perfectly safe.

I use a (clean!) garbage can and leave it outside. You can cover the top with mesh or something to keep mosquitos out in the summer, but I consider the mosquito and bug larvae an added bonus.

Try to place it where runoff from your roof or gutters won't contaminate it though...


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## Norbert (Apr 16, 2012)

ok thnx, I have interpet bioactive tap safe which should be added before pouring water into aquarium. It also removes copper and adds some beneficial bacteria.

I have temp 24C atm. Do I have to increase it to 29-30 at once or increase few degrees each hour?

​


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## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

I'm questionable about any product that claims to have 'bacteria in a bottle'. What does the bacteria eat while it's on the store shelf for who knows how long? How does it breathe?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

redchigh said:


> I'm questionable about any product that claims to have 'bacteria in a bottle'. What does the bacteria eat while it's on the store shelf for who knows how long? How does it breathe?


You are not alone in questioning this, but science has now proven it does work. Dr. Timothy Hovanec was the microbiologist who discovered the true species of nitrifying bacteria that establish in aquaria [you can read more about this aspect in my article on Bacteria, http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-articles/bacteria-freshwater-aquarium-74891/ ]. Within the context of this work, which is now accepted in the scientific community, he developed the "bacteria in a bottle" product.

Dr. Hovanec ran tests on other products such as Nutrafin's Cycle, and stated that while the bacteria species in this product (and most others up to then/now) is incorrect, they do serve to quick-start the nitrification bacteria by several days. But nothing more. His patented product contains the correct live bacteria, and he claims it will immediately "cycle" a new tank. And I should point out that the New England Aquarium, the London Aquarium, and other major aquaria use his products to add sensitive fish to a new display with no issues. I believe his initial product was BioSpira, and this formula was sold to Tetra who now market it as SafeStart. This is why I recomend this product as one that works. Seachem's Stability is different, but it does appear to somehow work.

Here is a link to Dr. Hovanec's article on his discovery and why it does what he claims it does.
Bottled Nitrifiers Work Part 1


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## Norbert (Apr 16, 2012)

And people often add bio balls to aquarium which will hold good bacteria in there . 
I wonder why it's so important to have it since you will have good bacteria in water anyway, ofcourse you can say that changing water will get rid of them but I don't think anybody change 100% of water.

Only chemistry will kill it (as mentioned above) but even then your water will go through bio balls with chemistry so everything will be killed anyway.


I personally have bio balls and I see that as a waste of space.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Norbert said:


> And people often add bio balls to aquarium which will hold good bacteria in there .
> I wonder why it's so important to have it since you will have good bacteria in water anyway, ofcourse you can say that changing water will get rid of them but I don't think anybody change 100% of water.
> 
> Only chemistry will kill it (as mentioned above) but even then your water will go through bio balls with chemistry so everything will be killed anyway.
> ...


Might be a bit of confusion here. Bacteria lives on surfaces, not in water; it forms what is called a bio film because it is very sticky and it will attach to any hard surface under water. The more surface area, the more bacteria can live there, which is why filter media like bio balls are used. Porous rock like the bio max and lava rock also is very porous. The aquarium substrate is too, which is why more bacteria live in the substrate than elsewhere. So changing water does not affect the bacteria, and it is relatively difficult to dislodge them just with water. You can read more here:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-articles/bacteria-freshwater-aquarium-74891/


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## Norbert (Apr 16, 2012)

You have answer to everything


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## Norbert (Apr 16, 2012)

I did as you told and increased temperature on saturday (midnight) and didn't help within 7 days. I left it for another 4 days (till today -wednesday midnight). 
My oldest clown loach has lots of white spots. I have two small ones too, one is literally covered in spots but he's ok so far but I'm mostly concerned about second small one. He has few white spots and he's acting strange. He's lieying down in foregrown on plants and other strange places (never did that befor) and I wouldn't mind if that would be night time but not in middle of feeding or when it's afternoon.Also he has red gills
Basically he's really bad and it's second day like that....he's eating but not much and I don't think he'll keep like this for long.

I changed water like you wrote just didn't do that today yet (will get to it after you'll answer).

So anyway it's been 11 days and all fish are ok apart from clown loaches, it doesn't come off.

What should I do ?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Norbert said:


> I did as you told and increased temperature on saturday (midnight) and didn't help within 7 days. I left it for another 4 days (till today -wednesday midnight).
> My oldest clown loach has lots of white spots. I have two small ones too, one is literally covered in spots but he's ok so far but I'm mostly concerned about second small one. He has few white spots and he's acting strange. He's lieying down in foregrown on plants and other strange places (never did that befor) and I wouldn't mind if that would be night time but not in middle of feeding or when it's afternoon.Also he has red gills
> Basically he's really bad and it's second day like that....he's eating but I don't think he'll keep like this for long.
> 
> ...


This may well not work. As I wrote previously, clown loach get ich bad, very bad, for reasons I don't think anyone really knows. But they are one of a few species that are highly prone to ich. And what makes this even worse is that being scaleless they are highly sensitive to any medications, chemicals, etc. Everyone I have ever read suggests treatment for loaches be half-strength because of this sensitivity. Which is why I suggested CopperSafe which is a milder treatment than other products.

I would be tempted to raise the temp to 90F. For a week or even two this should be tolerable to the loach. However, you have other fish in this tank that will not do well at such high temperatures.

Given this scenario, my action would be to divide the fish. Do you have another tank? The best solution would be to move the two loach to a separate tank, it could be a 5g even for this, and then raise the temp to 90F and see what happens. If this can be done, I woudl even hesitate to use CopperSafe, as the high temp should deal with ich. And the fish would have less stress without the CS.

Byron.


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## Norbert (Apr 16, 2012)

Yeah, I have seperate tank ( 10 litres) - with platys but they can be put into bigg one and threat those clown loaches in seperate tank.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Norbert said:


> Yeah, I have seperate tank ( 10 litres) - with platys but they can be put into bigg one and threat those clown loaches in seperate tank.


This may be the best. Follow what I outlined previously.

The tank the loaches are now in of course has ich, but with them removed you can use CopperSafe at the 85F temperature for another week and this should deal with the ich in there. I trust none of the other fish are showing stress like the loaches are?


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## Norbert (Apr 16, 2012)

Byron said:


> The tank the loaches are now in of course has ich, but with them removed you can use CopperSafe at the 85F temperature for another week and this should deal with the ich in there. I trust none of the other fish are showing stress like the loaches are?


No, only clown loaches though sometimes I've seen other fish rubbing against plants etc (no visible changes)

As you said it's because of different fish in tank. I don't think Red tail sharks (2 ) are in this point issue , mostly that would be Danio (one is really crazy and chase everybody)
A week ago before they had this white spot I planted aqua (had few plants but now I have loads).
This took me few hours to do and I think that's a major reason.
Apart from that danios and sharks are lot calmer (probably cos of well planted aqua).


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## Norbert (Apr 16, 2012)

There might be a bit of confusion in here about Copper Safe.
I thought that this treatment is *only to remove copper* and when I just read on website it's removing parasites and bacterials including Ich.

I believe I've mentioned about using chemistry to remove chlorine and copper (that thing which apparently has good bacteria in it) but it doesn't remove any bad bacteria and parasites. It would be similiar to using Accu Clear which clears water (although it will work better).

In effect I left those loaches in big tank ( I couldn't fish it up) and I think it'll be better for all fish since some might have just a little of ich. I used half a dose as labeled.

I've also plugged in airation (white spot threatment removes oxygen from tank) It's called Interpet Anti-White Spot.


We'll see how it goes from there....


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## Norbert (Apr 16, 2012)

Did you used Interpet Anti-White Spot before? 
If it's bad choice then I'll look for Copper Safe unless it's a good choice.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Norbert said:


> Did you used Interpet Anti-White Spot before?
> If it's bad choice then I'll look for Copper Safe unless it's a good choice.


I've not used Interpet, perhaps some other members have. Be careful not to mix medications, they can react with each other and be even more dangerous. If you do change medications, do a couple of major water changes before adding the new one.


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## Norbert (Apr 16, 2012)

Btw I've checked fish profile and couldn't find my fish on list (Norman's Lampeye) so I've added that but it said something about pm (not sure)
Anyway here's link if you would like to add it Norman's Lampeye ? Aplocheilichthys Normani


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Norbert said:


> Btw I've checked fish profile and couldn't find my fish on list (Norman's Lampeye) so I've added that but it said something about pm (not sure)
> Anyway here's link if you would like to add it Norman's Lampeye ? Aplocheilichthys Normani


Thank you, I will review the profile later today (I hope).;-)


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