# Prime & Oxygen Levels



## Tolak

Due to this topic veering off topic; http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...sible-old-tank-syndrome-fish-swimming-563194/

And a very good suggestion from Bob; Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources - Conversation Between beaslbob and Tolak

I've decided to order this; Aquarium Water Testing: Salifert Oxygen Test Kit for Freshwater and Marine Aquariums

I needed to order flea & tick preventatives for the terrier crew anyway, free shipping on the O2 kit.

I'll be using the same rack of 5's that I used for this bit of fun, since I shut down the fishroom 2/3 of the way for summer; http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/.../tank-temperature-vs-room-temperature-470241/ 

I looked into the O2 meters, at $150+ that is not going to happen. Being a hobbyist grade liquid test I expect the quality of the results to reflect that. Since I'm concerned more with the comparative measurements than exact O2 levels this kit should suffice. Needless to say, consistency of testing is going to be critical to acceptable results, this means as little handing & agitation of water samples as possible, due to the risk of introducing O2 that is not contained in the tank water. 

I'm expecting this test to be in sometime next week, any ideas, suggestions, comments or insults are welcome!


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## Hallyx

I'd be very interested in your results, Tolak. My opinion is that only a crazy >5x overdose of Prime would effect dissolved O2 to a dangerous degree, especially since most tanks have a bubbler or some other surface-riffling action to facilitate gas exchange.

I also disagree with Bob over whether an inexperienced keeper would continue (over-) dosing Prime just because they don't see it's effect on ammonia. It's all over the web, and especially all over this forum, that Prime locks up ammonia rendering it harmless, but does not effect the readings on the API nor even their own test kit. (It's a limitation of the chemistry that even Seachem admits to.) Only the most callow or ignorant (or stubborn) newby would continue to dose Prime without regard for reason or results. I don't know how you'd replicate that condition, but it's one point of contention I'd like settled.


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## beaslbob

Hallyx said:


> I'd be very interested in your results, Tolak. My opinion is that only a crazy >5x overdose of Prime would effect dissolved O2 to a dangerous degree, especially since most tanks have a bubbler or some other surface-riffling action to facilitate gas exchange.
> 
> I also disagree with Bob over whether an inexperienced keeper would continue (over-) dosing Prime just because they don't see it's effect on ammonia. It's all over the web, and especially all over this forum, that Prime locks up ammonia rendering it harmless, but does not effect the readings on the API nor even their own test kit. (It's a limitation of the chemistry that even Seachem admits to.) Only the most callow or ignorant (or stubborn) newby would continue to dose Prime without regard for reason or results. I don't know how you'd replicate that condition, but it's one point of contention I'd like settled.


First of all I'm glad a new thread was started. Was about to do this myself. It's does get kinda confusing to newbies.

And to my main point. If you have ammonia the best thing to do is add thriving fast growing plants. It will consume the ammonia directly preventing cycles and possible tank crashes while also consuming co2 and returning oxygen and fish food.

the effect of that on pH are that all my tanks including marind and FW planted with peat moss in the substrate. have a ph of purple (8.4-8.8) on the api high range test kit. the FW have no mechanical circulation as well.

that high pH readings are IMHO a direct result of plant/algae action.

To seachem on prime and ammonia test kits:


http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/MT_Ammonia.html said:


> thus it is much more important to keep an eye on the level of free ammonia in your system. This kit is based on the same gas exchange technology that is used in the Ammonia Alert™ and thus is the only kit on the market that can read levels of free ammonia while using ammonia removal products such as Prime®, Safe™, AmGuard™ and any similar competing products. The other kits (salicylate or Nessler based) determine the total ammonia by raising the pH of the test solution to 12 or greater. *At this high pH all ammonia removal products will breakdown and rerelease the ammonia, thus giving you a false ammonia reading*.


So even the maker of Prime recognizes that false high ammonia readings can happen.

My point is that you 1) should use plants 2) or in extreme emergiences (accidental toxins added) treat with *Prime only for the free ammonia *using the test kit or ammonia dot.

My advice is based on years on these boards and numerous newbies cycling a tank with prime and the results (dead fish) they were obtaining until switching to plants like anacharis (fish recover in hours if not minutes).

Finally ph in our aquariums has a direct correlation to co2 levels. Which can be varied by (in my case) plant actions and chemical additions.

for a more complete discussion of ph, alk, co2 see: 
Low pH: Causes and Cures by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

The general principles apply to fw even though that particular article is for reef tanks.

So the original poster in the other thread was measuring .25 ppm ammonia, adding prime without regard to the ammonia levels, had a ph of 6, and fish that were at the top of the tank with some fish deaths. 
To me that means the ammonia is probably locked up (or worse it was a false positive test to begin with) but they continued dosing prime. Low pH is a sign of elevated co2. The fish at the top are suffocating due to low oxygen and elevated co2 (hence the ph being low). To me that last thing you need to do is keep adding ammonia locks.


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## Hallyx

I haven't got the typing skills nor the time to address everything wrong with this post. 

Seachem doesn't know how to clearly explicate nor elucidate the characteristics and uses of their own product. I've already been round and round with those kids about their communications shortcomings. Anyway, nothing in that quote from Seachem has anything to do with Prime or O2. Just another non sequitur.

The fact that you can point to one new keeper who was dumb enough to do what I thought no-one would do is an anecdote, not even a statistic, certainly nothing that would indicate a trend that I would worry about. What is worrisome is that he either didn't think to ask or was inadequately advised.

As for your plant-rant, I've already spent to much time on this thread. I'm not even supposed to be here on TFK, anyway.


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## Tolak

Hallyx said:


> I'm not even supposed to be here on TFK, anyway.


So much of this little hands on thing I'm doing seems like it would apply to the BF members, I think dispensation for this topic should be allowed. Once it's rolling I may do a little cross post in BF, if there isn't a little software trick the mods or admin could pull.

The pH/co2 relationship is usually concerned with high tech planted setups, where there's some co2 injection going on. I can drop tank water to 6.0 or a bit lower, with a TDS of 20-25, simply by using peat & RO. There is no co2 involved, no more than any of my other tanks. I had a tank going like this some years back, nice group of wild caught cardinals that were self sustaining. It may be an option after a plain tap series, though I've got no clue why anyone would add Prime to RO.

Bob, we all know (all of us who have been active here for a while at least!) what an advocate you are for plants, and your particular method. It may be viable in some situations, but not in all. What I do with racks of bare bottom tanks minimally lit is one where it would not work. In my mind parts of what we do as we get more advanced, as the planted ideas you so strongly advocate certainly are, is knowing when not to promote them as much as when to, especially to someone newer to fishkeeping. What I do with fishroom hardware, as well as tank cloning & stocking, is sure to get a sideways look at times, most likely as much as what you do with plants & such running a BB build. The maintenance involved in our individual methods are for the most part opposite ends of the spectrum. It's nice to inform someone of where they can go with a certain setup, technique, or process, it takes a bit of wisdom & feeling out the individuals experience level to determine if they should go there. 

You see issues with the O2 level in aquariums where Prime is used, especially at excessive doses. What I do involves a pretty heavy usage of Prime, yet I've seen none of the issues you consistently mention. What I'm attempting to do is replicate the issues you mention, as well as find out at what point of dosing they occur.


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## Hallyx

Tolak said:


> So much of this little hands on thing I'm doing seems like it would apply to the BF members....


Thanks, Tolak. Your contributions to the BF side are well-known and much appreciated. 

O2 levels, Prime-driven or otherwise, are not the first worry of anabantid keepers. But it is nice of you to think of us.

However I, personally, am very interested in your results and will subscribe to that thread. And there are many community keepers on BF.


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## beaslbob

Hallyx said:


> I haven't got the typing skills nor the time to address everything wrong with this post.
> 
> Seachem doesn't know how to clearly explicate nor elucidate the characteristics and uses of their own product. I've already been round and round with those kids about their communications shortcomings. *Anyway, nothing in that quote from Seachem has anything to do with Prime or O2*. Just another non sequitur.
> 
> The fact that you can point to one new keeper who was dumb enough to do what I thought no-one would do is an anecdote, not even a statistic, certainly nothing that would indicate a trend that I would worry about. What is worrisome is that he either didn't think to ask or was inadequately advised.
> 
> As for your plant-rant, I've already spent to much time on this thread. I'm not even supposed to be here on TFK, anyway.


I'll give you another chance to reread. :lol:



http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/MT_Ammonia.html said:


> thus it is much more important to keep an eye on the level of free ammonia in your system. This kit is based on the same gas exchange technology that is used in the Ammonia Alert™ and thus is the only kit on the market that can read levels of free ammonia *while using ammonia removal products such as Prime®, *Safe™, AmGuard™ and any similar competing products. The other kits (salicylate or Nessler based) determine the total ammonia by raising the pH of the test solution to 12 or greater. At this high pH all ammonia removal products will breakdown and rerelease the ammonia, thus giving you a false ammonia reading.


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## beaslbob

Tolak said:


> So much of this little hands on thing I'm doing seems like it would apply to the BF members, I think dispensation for this topic should be allowed. Once it's rolling I may do a little cross post in BF, if there isn't a little software trick the mods or admin could pull.
> 
> The pH/co2 relationship is usually concerned with high tech planted setups, where there's some co2 injection going on. I can drop tank water to 6.0 or a bit lower, with a TDS of 20-25, simply by using peat & RO. There is no co2 involved, no more than any of my other tanks. I had a tank going like this some years back, nice group of wild caught cardinals that were self sustaining. It may be an option after a plain tap series, though I've got no clue why anyone would add Prime to RO.
> 
> Bob, we all know (all of us who have been active here for a while at least!) what an advocate you are for plants, and your particular method. It may be viable in some situations, but not in all. What I do with racks of bare bottom tanks minimally lit is one where it would not work. In my mind parts of what we do as we get more advanced, as the planted ideas you so strongly advocate certainly are, is knowing when not to promote them as much as when to, especially to someone newer to fishkeeping. What I do with fishroom hardware, as well as tank cloning & stocking, is sure to get a sideways look at times, most likely as much as what you do with plants & such running a BB build. The maintenance involved in our individual methods are for the most part opposite ends of the spectrum. It's nice to inform someone of where they can go with a certain setup, technique, or process, it takes a bit of wisdom & feeling out the individuals experience level to determine if they should go there.
> 
> You see issues with the O2 level in aquariums where Prime is used, especially at excessive doses. What I do involves a pretty heavy usage of Prime, yet I've seen none of the issues you consistently mention. What I'm attempting to do is replicate the issues you mention, as well as find out at what point of dosing they occur.


so how about a newbie whose fish are suffocating and who is constantly dosing prime?

When I tell even brand new people to stop dosing prime and add fast growing plants their fish recover in hours and even minutes.


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## beaslbob

Hallyx said:


> Thanks, Tolak. Your contributions to the BF side are well-known and much appreciated.
> 
> O2 levels, Prime-driven or otherwise, are not the first worry of anabantid keepers. But it is nice of you to think of us.
> 
> However I, personally, am very interested in your results and will subscribe to that thread. And there are many community keepers on BF.


And I do appreciate the testing also.

The other side is the co2 levels. Afterall high co2 levels prevent the fish from expelling co2. In the other thread that was my concern with the pH of 6, use of prime, and the fish suffocating.


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## Tolak

beaslbob said:


> so how about a newbie whose fish are suffocating and who is constantly dosing prime?
> 
> When I till even brand new people who actually stop dosing prime and add fast growing plants their fish recover in hours and even minutes.


This is where the betta crew may fit in, it's common practice to dose Prime daily, or nearly so in smaller uncycled tanks. I don't recall hearing of betas suffocation in these situations. 

That recovery time is great, but where their any O2 measurements taken at any time? I don't see how a lower O2 level or lower pH would correlate to an assumed increase in co2.


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## beaslbob

Tolak said:


> This is where the betta crew may fit in, it's common practice to dose Prime daily, or nearly so in smaller uncycled tanks. I don't recall hearing of betas suffocation in these situations.
> 
> That recovery time is great, but where their any O2 measurements taken at any time? I don't see how a lower O2 level or lower pH would correlate to an assumed increase in co2.


I have kept bettas for years with no water changes using plants even lucky bamboo.


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## Embouck7

Let me just point out that pime might not effect o2 levels significantly but it will kill fish if dosed consistently in high levels. Secondly who ever thinks a newbie wouldn't consistently mess up a dosing schedual and the amounts used doesn't see newbie tanks haha. At work I see all types of disasters people keep their fish in...... Anyway the main point is if you tell a newb to dose prime be specific, tell them what to do and how to do it, overly simplistic. Remember not everyone is sharp as a whip and all kinds of mayhem insue.


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## Hallyx

Because Betta are sometimes -- unfortunately -- kept in small, unfiltered (un-cycled) tanks, we routinely recommend dosing Prime @ 2-drops/gal daily. This protects the stock while keeping pwc's to a reasonable and unstressful size and frequency. 

We continually recommend the tank be upgraded to <2gal and cycled. When asked, we occasionally recommend plants to a newby. But mostly we have to assume that a beginner needs fish-care instructions more than plant care advice. You really have to "know your audience," as Tolak has averred in his previous post.

Over at BF, we deal with rank beginners on a daily basis. Never have I heard of anyone overdosing Prime badly enough to endanger their fish. The only time I've heard this is from Bob.

Btw, my reading comprehension is just fine, Bob. I read that Seachem clip again. It has nothing to do with this topic -- a non sequitur.


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## beaslbob

Hallyx said:


> Because Betta are sometimes -- unfortunately -- kept in small, unfiltered (un-cycled) tanks, we routinely recommend dosing Prime @ 2-drops/gal daily. This protects the stock while keeping pwc's to a reasonable and unstressful size and frequency.
> 
> We continually recommend the tank be upgraded to <2gal and cycled. When asked, we occasionally recommend plants to a newby. But mostly we have to assume that a beginner needs fish-care instructions more than plant care advice. You really have to "know your audience," as Tolak has averred in his previous post.
> 
> Over at BF, we deal with rank beginners on a daily basis. Never have I heard of anyone overdosing Prime badly enough to endanger their fish. The only time I've heard this is from Bob.
> 
> Btw, my reading comprehension is just fine, Bob. I read that Seachem clip again. It has nothing to do with this topic -- a non sequitur.


I sorry. I thought newbies measuring ammonia and adding prime was the subject. Definitely blind dosing with no measuring at all is even worse. 

Perhaps bettas capability to breath air makes them more forgiving is actual water conditions.


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## Embouck7

No need to get all upset and think people are taking shots at you. This thread should have been named differently. We really have two schools of thought here..... You can't say adding plants is a bad thing for newbies to try, and I can't say your adding a few drops of prime is bad either. Now you can't say a newbie is gonna do exactly what you recomend.... I'm pretty sure someone would be really embarrassed if they accidently dosed their tank to death and therefore not very likley we would hear about it.
What the title of this thread should be is "prime or plants, which is more benificial?"


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## Embouck7

That being said tell me how prime addresses the amonia problem in the long term. I would like to know why you think prime is a sustainable solution.


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## Tolak

First of all it isn't named Prime Or Plants because I don't do plants whatsoever, and I'm not about to start. Even if it were named that, and run in that manner, there's way too many variables to come to a proper conclusion using plants. As it is I'm trying to figure out variables that may taint results, obviously this isn't a lab grade sort of thing; my fishroom isn't a lab, I'm no lab tech.

If you follow the links in post #1 you'll see why I'm looking int the Prime/O2 issue.


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## Hallyx

Embouck7 said:


> That being said tell me how prime addresses the amonia problem in the long term. I would like to know why you think prime is a sustainable solution.


How have you inferred that someone thinks Prime is a sustainable solution? 

--Prime is a useful tool for cycling: It renders ammonia harmless until the nitrifying bacteria can take over. This takes the danger out of fish-in cycling.

--Prime reduces stress by allowing a few more days between water changes in small uncycled tanks. It does not replace water changes (neither do plants), but it does allow for smaller changes to be exercised safely.

I won't say recommending plants to newbies is a bad thing. But, when one is on a steep learning curve for fish-care, complicating the issue with plant-maintenance can be confusing and counterproductive. As an educator dealing with rank novices, I can assure you that slow introduction of simple fundamentals, in a restricted canon, is the preferred methodology.


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## beaslbob

IMHO I can't get much simplier that adding fast growing plants. :lol::lol::lol:


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## Tolak

beaslbob said:


> IMHO I can't get much simplier that adding fast growing plants. :lol::lol::lol:


And I can't get much simpler than drilling a tank & hanging a hose for water changes. Believe it or not, not everybody has a desire to do plants. Not everybody has a desire to put a hole in their tank & set up a nice close faucet for water either. If you wish to do a topic concerning O2 & plants have at it, I know you have plants, the test won't break the bank. BTW the test came in today, probably start messing with it this weekend.


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## Embouck7

Ya plants grow them selves, you provide timed light. Really simple to start and you can be sure that there won't be as many ups and downs in the water parameters. 
Seriously I would say plant care costs me about an hour of my time every two to three weeks.


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## Mikaila31

Embouck7 said:


> Ya plants grow them selves, you provide timed light. Really simple to start and you can be sure that there won't be as many ups and downs in the water parameters.
> Seriously I would say plant care costs me about an hour of my time every two to three weeks.


everyone has their own methods. I produce a ton of plants and can net an easy $20 a month underselling them to shops because I am lazy. For that same point I have non-planted tanks because no matter how easy you say plants are, nothing can beat a barebottom sponge filtered tank in ease of care. Plants will not improve tank stability unless you keep a really unstable bioload to start with. 

Running high tech tanks under certain conditions plants can cause problems if you neglect them for more then a few weeks that can certainly lead to fish health problems.


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## Tolak

Embouck7 said:


> Ya plants grow them selves, you provide timed light. Really simple to start and you can be sure that there won't be as many ups and downs in the water parameters.
> Seriously I would say plant care costs me about an hour of my time every two to three weeks.


You running a fishroom for a profit? Timed lighting uses electricity. More overhead. Complex or simple isn't the issue with my setup. Proper animal husbandry, efficiency, and supplemental income is, in that order. 

Maybe you could start the topic concerning O2 & plants for Bob, make sure to document the ups & downs you've mentioned. No doubt with plants & the day/night cycle you'll end up with some swings in parameters.


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## Embouck7

haha ok you can come up with infinite reasons not to do plants. or ask me to prove cost effectiveness. Just remember where fish are found and what is always there with the fish. You don't need a planted tank to see the benefit of having one. 

And you who timed lights costs money is a nill point, first of all fish need light your not gonna be able to keep them all in the dark.......so you will be spending money on lights, your telling me you never forget to turn the lights off ? Timed light will cost less in the long run, its just simple math.


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## Embouck7

Not once in 10-15 years of fishtanking have I ever had to use prime to do anything other than dechlorinate. Thats the purpose it was intended for, ammonia locking is just a bonus property. Now your earlier posts were missleading because your using the product in a different manner than decolorization. 

To sum up my point, I think you use to much prime, I'm pretty sure bob feels the same way. Just cuz seachem says you could do a 5x dose and be ok doesn't mean we need to. After all this is america and they will tell you what you want to hear to sell more product.


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## Tolak

Talk about topic drift. The only reason I need to not do plants is that I don't want to do plants. You have no idea how much Prime I use, or don't, or when, or why. You have no idea how much light I run, or electricity I use running my setup. In certain situations I will use Prime for other than dechlorination, so will many others. How many times in 10-15 years have you brought 200-500 fish in & added them to your system?


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## badxgillen

Yes , most of these other comments are moot, especially since the thread was not about making a tank stable via plants.. I would love to get back to the Original Topic and let Tolak do some science. I appreciate the time and effort put into posting up the information and soon to be findings, Kudos to you my friend.


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## Hallyx

Embouck7 said:


> [Dechlorinating is] the purpose [Prime] was intended for, ammonia locking is just a bonus property.


On the contrary, Seachem deliberately adds the locking compound (whose multisyllabic name escapes me at the moment) in order to lock up the ammonia released when chloramine is broken into its constituent molecules, chlorine and ammonia. Other products do this as well: Ammolock, Amguard, Aqueon Betta conditioner (but not their regular conditioner); and there are others. This is an important feature for keepers who prefer not to deal with plants and whose tanks are not cycled -- even conscientious keepers with cycled tanks.




Embouck7 said:


> .... Just cuz seachem says you could do a 5x dose and be ok doesn't mean we need to. After all this is america and they will tell you what you want to hear to sell more product.


I find that inordinately cynical. I hope your don't feel that way about all businesses and business dealings. That level of mistrust might be uncomfortable to live with. 

Having dealt with Seachem, I think they are a good corporate citizen, willing to help look out for the welfare of our pets. They're not getting rich by advising hobbyists to use an extra few drops of product.

By the way, I derived my recommendation for Prime usage, by research, consultation, experimentation and experience. Your advice, I'm sure would differ. So be it.


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## Embouck7

Seachem ought to be cutting you a check every month. There is clearly no middle ground on the subject of prime with you.... I was under the impression you were working with an open mind and wanted to reach some sort of group conclusion on the adverse effects of prime??.......


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## Tolak

Actually I could go on about how no dechlor at all is needed with 25% or less water changes in many situations, regardless of chlorine/chloramine being present in the water supply. I've done this before as well. Seasonally, in many situations, I can get by with plain old sodium thiosulfate rather than Prime.

This topic was started due to another going off topic, and at Bob's suggestion.


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## corina savin

I hope Tolak will soon present his findings so we can go back to our dear Prime.
I am not particularly concerned if Prime binds some oxygen because I use Prime as directed when I do PWC. I also used Prime few times directly in the bucket with fish when I took them to LFS. I did not noticed any fish gasping.

Maybe Prime needs oxygen to do its job, and that's fine as long as the oxygen level is not at a critical level to start with (such as very warm and dirty water). Nitrification itself is an oxygen consuming process: three oxygen atoms needed for every nitrogen to turn NH3 into NO3. Does it make it a bad thing for our fish?


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## Tolak

Well I would have gotten to this last weekend, if the weekend didn't involve a drive downtown for a MRI of my wife's foot. Monday was a heel fracture diagnosis, Tuesday was a non-walking cast, 4 weeks of that nonsense. Of course it's the right foot, so no driving. My Jeep is now rigged for ortho transport, since she has horrible upper body strength it's wheelchair time. I drive her to work, roll her up the large ramp, then continue on to my job. After work is the opposite.

Sorry for the delay of game here, hopefully I'll be able to get started with this tomorrow, fishroom got pretty much ignored this past week.


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## Hallyx

That's really terrible, T. Hope she recovers quickly and completely. 

Take your time. Nobody here is in any rush.


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## beaslbob

Tolak said:


> Well I would have gotten to this last weekend, if the weekend didn't involve a drive downtown for a MRI of my wife's foot. Monday was a heel fracture diagnosis, Tuesday was a non-walking cast, 4 weeks of that nonsense. Of course it's the right foot, so no driving. My Jeep is now rigged for ortho transport, since she has horrible upper body strength it's wheelchair time. I drive her to work, roll her up the large ramp, then continue on to my job. After work is the opposite.
> 
> Sorry for the delay of game here, hopefully I'll be able to get started with this tomorrow, fishroom got pretty much ignored this past week.


Take care of wifie. that's more important and hope she is feeling all better.
now to the following posts.


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