# Sand vs sand vs sand....



## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

I picked up a bag of play sand the other day and got around to the cleaning part today... More to test it than too get any appreciable amount cleaned.

What a mess! There is so much fine fine sand in there than I thought there might be. I wouldn't one surprised to get slightly more than half when I am done. 

I was planning on mixing play sand with some aquarium sand for colour adjustment, perhaps, but I see why aquarium sand may be a better choice up front even given the cost.

Then there is the pool filter sand... is it much better than play sand? I would think so as it is not supposed to go through the pool equipment.

Sources of sand that I can think of:

*Play sand:* cheap but messy to clean and finer than is probably good 

*Sandblasting sand:* designed to be gritty so probably rough on fish faces. Loufa anyone?

*Pool filter sand*: hoping it is cleaner and larger grained

*My rock pile:* pretty cheap, washed but who knows what else is in it, it came with the 35 year old house... I had to dispose of some old hydro poles... how do you spell PCB anyway?

*Aquarium sand*: colour choices, clean (relatively), course-ish... Expensive

Off to the local pool supply store to check out their sand. I think one is a client of mine, I'll stop there first. Either that or just wait for the boxing week sale at the LFS. Apparently EVERYTHING in the store is 20 to 50% off ... I wonder if I can get our tank setup and stocked in 5 days...NOT!

Jeff.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

Well, the pool store has it, $10 for a 50lb bag... Little overkill but I'm sure sand keeps.

Once I told the lady what I was going to use it for, she mentioned that they went through the same thing many years ago when they had an aquarium. The issue was that the filter sand may be treated and may not be fish safe. Pool safe is not the same as fish safe, obviously. That makes me wonder about the playsand now too. As much as I've seen lots of posts about it, it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone's source has the same quality control or treatment schedule.

She did think she could get the info on it easily as it just comes from the distributor labelled "filter sand". 

I have another client that may be able to get me the answer I need... which may not be the one that I want. 

Jeff.


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## Freshcatch (Aug 8, 2012)

JDM said:


> *My rock pile:* pretty cheap, washed but who knows what else is in it, it came with the 35 year old house... I had to dispose of some old hydro poles... how do you spell PCB anyway?
> 
> 
> Jeff.



Polychlorinated biphenyl

I would not use the rock pile, and a lot of the members here use pool filter sand and play sand. Regardless of your choice rinsing the sand will improve your chances of reduced cloudiness when filling your tank the first time. Play sand will take more rinsing than pool or aquarium sand. Also different brands of sand may be different colors, depending on where the sand came from. 

AND Welcome to the forum


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## Sanguinefox (Nov 29, 2011)

Point out that some sands made for "Aquariums" are dyed. Some people report with some brands that after a while that dye leaches from the sand. So make sure you research the "aquarium sand" brand you buy before purchase if you go that route.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

Well, I cleaned the playsand a bit more figuring "how bad can it possibly be?".

I found organic pieces in it. That's not good. 

Cheap is cheap. 

Jeff.


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## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

I have pool filter sand in one tank and play sand in another. The pool filter sand required almost zero cleaning, while the play sand took me probably hours to remove all the fines. IMO, the extra time is worth it. The pool filter sand is just glaringly white while the play sand has a better color to it.


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

I have had pool filter sand. Found it to be too "white". I felt like I needed sunglasses to look at my tank. Now it took almost no effort to clean it. I have also had Black Diamond blasting sand. I was told it was fine for fish even bottom dwellers. I LOVED the color of it but it was kinda course. It aslo took A LOT of rinsing!!! I now have play sand in both of my tanks. It does take more cleaning then pool filter sand but its much better sand in my opinion. Looks more natural.


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## mikejp67 (Mar 31, 2012)

I used play sand once....Never again. Its loaded with crap. The water was cloudy even after I rinsed it multiple times. 
Drove down to the pool supply store and picked up a bag filter sand and problem solved. Yes, its white but it will darken in a few months.


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## Pearl2011 (May 21, 2012)

I spent about an hour rinding it, it was a mess so i did it outside and it was worth it. So awesome once its cleaned


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## Sanguinefox (Nov 29, 2011)

Pearl2011 said:


> I spent about an hour rinding it, it was a mess so i did it outside and it was worth it. So awesome once its cleaned


Did you have it all in one bucket? Or did you seperate it out?

When I set up the 80 gallon, I separated my 50 pound back into two 30 pound tubs. Then I would lead in one hose to one tub while pouring silt filled water out of the other. I got the overall time down to 30 mins, and once finished has no silt/dust storm upon filling the tank with water.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

Sanguinefox said:


> Did you have it all in one bucket? Or did you seperate it out?
> 
> When I set up the 80 gallon, I separated my 50 pound back into two 30 pound tubs. Then I would lead in one hose to one tub while pouring silt filled water out of the other. I got the overall time down to 30 mins, and once finished has no silt/dust storm upon filling the tank with water.


I can see where a continuous flow would certain speed things up. I gave it another go this morning and was just a little more aggressive, did 't let it settle at all between hosing it and pouring off. Most of the heavy organics came out and more of the silt. Now it clears pretty quick if I do let it settle. 

Interestingly there is some fleck of shiny stuff in there. Might make for an interesting look, at least until the fish crap all over it.

I'll keep at it. I do like the colour of it wet, I probably wouldn't be happy with a bright coloured bottom.......that's wet sand, in the bottom of the aquarium.

Jeff.


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

I'm using pool filter sand (left over from replacing the pool filter sand that 'went over the back fence'). This sand was from Wallymart. It is very sandy color but did have a lot of fines that needed a lot of rinsing (outdoor hose and 5g pail method). However, once done, there was no clouding in the tank.

I'm convinced that sand is a better substrate than gravel as sand causes uneaten food and detritus to collect on top rather than fall into the crevices of gravel.
However, very fine grained sands may tightly pack and inhibit root growth for plants.

I can't speak to all the sands that are out there. I have seen course and fine play sands as well as some that were sandy colored and others that we white. It's kind of a crap shoot, because for sand in a sand box it just needs to be sand - the desired sand for an aquarium is very different.

Also, beyond screening for size, I'm not aware of any 'treatments' for pool filter sand.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I now have Quikrete Play Sand in five of my tanks, and will have it in another when I reset it prob in Jan. It takes a lot of rinsing, true, but I have never had the problems some others have mentioned.

I rinse about 3 cups in a pail, with 6 or maybe 7 at most rinses. When I dump all the rinsed sand in the tank, I then fill about 5-6 inches of water, then siphon that off. Fill 2/3 of the tank and arrange hardscape and plant. Sometimes I siphon all the water out after planting, but that is it.

You can see this in the photos of my 115g (Amazon Riverscape) and 33g (Lagoon) tanks in the log [click "Aquariums" below my name on the left]. The nice thing about this sand is that it is nearly identical in appearance to the sand in many Amazonian streams, and being multi-coloured (white, black, gray, tan) detritus is invisible.

Byron.


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## Fishnerd101 (Aug 20, 2012)

I must have been lucky when I put play sand in my aquarium. I bought it because it was dirt cheap (or maybe sand cheap). I didn't rinse it because I was too lazy and just put it straight into the aquarium. I put a dinner plate in and poured the water on the plate to it from clouding, and the water was perfectly clear.


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## Convict2012 (Dec 19, 2012)

Byron said:


> I now have Quikrete Play Sand in five of my tanks, and will have it in another when I reset it prob in Jan. It takes a lot of rinsing, true, but I have never had the problems some others have mentioned.
> 
> I rinse about 3 cups in a pail, with 6 or maybe 7 at most rinses. When I dump all the rinsed sand in the tank, I then fill about 5-6 inches of water, then siphon that off. Fill 2/3 of the tank and arrange hardscape and plant. Sometimes I siphon all the water out after planting, but that is it.
> 
> ...


 I cant belive your tellling people to put cement in their tanks.
Quikrete makes cement based products! You dont ever use a product that comes from a cement plant. Have you ever been to a plant where these products are refined? This is run thru the same mill as pre-mix cement and mortar. I know...I've been in those plants.

I saw this a few hrs ago and I had to sign up and give my opinion.. No wonder why so many people quit the hobby.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

Convict2012 said:


> _Edited by Redchigh_


You should learn to express yourself more clearly and make sure that people don't get the wrong idea about your opinion.... oh, sorry, you already looked after that.

I might expect that Byron has some idea of what he is doing and will probably respond accordingly. With the name "quikrete" I might wonder at the source myself though. I am always conscious of cross contamination in foods for various reasons and this would be no different. 

Jeff.


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## Convict2012 (Dec 19, 2012)

JDM said:


> You should learn to express yourself more clearly and make sure that people don't get the wrong idea about your opinion.... oh, sorry, you already looked after that.
> 
> I might expect that Byron has some idea of what he is doing and will probably respond accordingly. With the name "quikrete" I might wonder at the source myself though. I am always conscious of cross contamination in foods for various reasons and this would be no different.
> 
> Jeff.


Quikrete and numerous other makers of play sand, tube sand, and other landscape materials are produced in plants that mix and sell pre-mixed concrete and mortar. Those plants run a batch of cement mix and once the batch is done...they make a batch of their next product. One of those products is PLAY SAND! Its all run thru the same equipment, silo's, conveyors etc. Its not broken down and cleaned, its not even rinsed off. So, if your the lucky one to get one of the first bags of play sand you just got a bag contaminated with the previous product. Play sand is sold to be used as play sand....not aquarium gravel.

Whats sad, go to any reputable LFS or talk to members of your local fish clubs and we all say the same things. Forget what you read on the internet.


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

I have used that same sand in my tanks for 2 years with no problems. If you have thoughts about how you fell about the issue at hand as you see it. You might want to start off better then calling someone out.


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## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

When I advise people on their tanks, I advise on the cautious side of things, doesn't mean someone elses way isn't better, just means Im not willing to trash ones tank.


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## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

This thread has been wrangled back on topic. Lets keep it that way


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

Fishnerd101 said:


> I must have been lucky when I put play sand in my aquarium. I bought it because it was dirt cheap (or maybe sand cheap). I didn't rinse it because I was too lazy and just put it straight into the aquarium. I put a dinner plate in and poured the water on the plate to it from clouding, and the water was perfectly clear.


+1

I use 1" of peat moss, 1" play sand, 1" pc select. and wet each layer then level and clean the tank before adding the next. then plants and finally add water poured over a dish

The tank is almost totally clear right from the start. But then I use no mechanical filter or circulation also. Which helps stuff settle.

no rinsing of any of the layers.


my .02


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

beaslbob said:


> +1
> 
> I use 1" of peat moss, 1" play sand, 1" pc select. and wet each layer then level and clean the tank before adding the next. then plants and finally add water poured over a dish
> 
> ...


BBob,

In that order? What are your water parameters when you first put it in and how do they change over time? GH, KH and pH specifically.

I am torn as I would like to put more "stuff" in the substrate but am concerned that things might go out of spec on me and I would be forced to tear it out and start again.... I am considering no fish for certain period anyway so that wouldn't be the end of the world as long as it was quickly apparent that it was not going to fly.

My very first idea, when I knew zippo about this stuff, was that I wanted to have a natural environment with plants, dirt and not so much reliance upon filtration. I quickly realized that this was not easily possible due to the small size of the tank and the likely bio-loading involved.

I figured a sand bottom was a good first start... my LFS sells peat but it's supposed to be for the filter as a media stage so it's probably pretty pricey to put down an inch. I've read about using hardwood forest dirt, that nice rich black stuff when you dig down a bit, as an underlayer... is that similar to the PC select that you refer to?

Jeff.


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

JDM said:


> BBob,
> 
> In that order? What are your water parameters when you first put it in and how do they change over time? GH, KH and pH specifically.
> 
> ...


Yes in that order from the bottom layer to top or the same order as you add it to the tank.


Just for reverence
here is the peat moss I use (canadian sphagum peat moss):
3.0 cu. ft. Peat Moss-70976040 at The Home Depot

and the pro choice select:
Pro's Choice Products

Parameter wise my water is 4 dkh and 9 degrees gh. With the peat moss both stayed at those levels for 2-3 years. PH rose to 8.4-8.8 (api high range test kit). But that was for my planted tanks that have no mechanical circulation. The high pH means low carbon dioxide. And even fish "requiring" low (under 7) ph values thrived for years.

The pc select is a baked clay so looks more like aquarium gravel.

I have heard of using soil as well. But haven't tried that. I have found that when using smaller bags of peat moss with fertz added you do have much more problems with algae. But even then a few days of lights out and no feeding bring things into line with the thriving plants.

When I used just plain sand guppies did fine but neon tetras no so well. And kH rose to over 20 degress and gh up around 40 degrees over the many years I operated that tank. (8-9)

So I feel the peat helped keep the hardness in line and allowed the more sensitive fish the thrive.


my .02


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I'm not going to get into the soil/peat debate, but just point out a couple facts. Whenever you add any of these natural organic substances to the substrate, you are going to impact the biology and the chemistry of the water. That doesn't mean it is not good, or doesn't work--just that things will be impacted. Far differently from a tank with plain fine gravel or sand.

Redchigh has done soil substrate tanks, so he can add more. I have no intention of using soil, simply because I have yet to find any real benefit (reading the works of those who advocate this method), plus there can be serious negatives. I'm simply not prepared to risk my fish just to hopefully have improved plant growth. And frankly I have to question how "improved" it would be anyway.

Redchigh and I exchanged some PM's on this subject not long ago, and as I mentioned then, I have no desire to put my fish at more risk, which means I would use the 6-month settling-in method with no fish, as this is safer. But I am also not willing to set up a tank for 6 months with no fish. Although, I suppose I could experiment with this in my plant-only QT for new fish, since this tank frequently runs for 6+ months without fish before I may buy new fish.

Anyway, just recognize the issues and be prepared. There are many ways to set up a planted tank; most have pros and cons of some sort. Understand them before trying them.

Byron.


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

I have a tank with pfs and a fist full of rainbow gravel for color. I have pics of it in tank and granual size in my profile.

It is a good sand for those that don't have fish with barbles as it is corse, but a good for plants as mine thrive in it. It also works well with my current setup. I will be changing it out when I add Cory Cats, but as of now it works great! Yes it needed to be rinsed. Just because it doesn't cloud water, doesn't mean it doesn't need to be cleaned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

Byron said:


> ... Anyway, just recognize the issues and be prepared. There are many ways to set up a planted tank; most have pros and cons of some sort. Understand them before trying them.
> 
> Byron.


I'll probably go for a more known factor... sand, and skip the extra stuff as my daughter will want to get some fish in there quickly and me deciding to experiment won't likely go over well.

I have a funny feeling that we will end up with another tank and it may be plant only, so I will be able to do some experimentation with water and substrates that way. If it remains stable then fish may end up in there.... maybe I'll add shrimp or something.

I'm currently boiling a funky Malaysian driftwood chunk... needed our largest pot. 

Jeff.


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## DKRST (Jan 11, 2011)

Ah, heck, may as well share my thoughts on the sand issue!

My favorite sand of all? The black "tahitian moon". Downside = almost as expensive as a bag of "ecocomplete"! Why is it my favorite? My observations that the darker substrate intensifies the darkness of the fishes colors.

Playsand? Yep, I have it in multiple tanks. Upside? Really inexpensive, natural color! Downside, fish colors a little washed out with light substrate, fish "poo" shows up a little too well, but I still like it! Does take some washing, but worth the effort to save the $$.

Pool sand? Haven't used it (yet). Upside not too expensive, easy to find if you have a pool filter you need to replace the sand in! Downside (possibly) - may be very white and microscopically "sharp". Old pool filter sand is usually replaced due the the smoothing and wearing of the sand grains (they compact together, causing channeling in the pool filter). New pool sand reportedly is "sharper" than some other sands. Of course, using old pool sand removes the issue of sharp edges on the sand grains.

I think you are fine either way. I wash all substrate material before it goes in my tank, just in case. Play sand quality varies greatly, some requires a lot more washing.


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## patadams66 (Apr 16, 2011)

DKRST said:


> Ah, heck, may as well share my thoughts on the sand issue!
> 
> My favorite sand of all? The black "tahitian moon". Downside = almost as expensive as a bag of "ecocomplete"! Why is it my favorite? My observations that the darker substrate intensifies the darkness of the fishes colors.


i have thought about this moon sand. do you have MTS? or anything to turn it over? would that even work since it compacts so well?

my niece has soem of that stuff and as soon as i touched it i thought...man this would look good in an aquarium. lol.

all of my sand tanks also have MTS to turn the sand over and to prevent the gas pockets.


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## DKRST (Jan 11, 2011)

I have lots of MTS and lots of plants. I don't think the tahitian moon sand is any worse than play sand for compaction issues. I don't worry about the hydrogen sulfide issue, except where black sand shows on the tank glass. That, I agitate during weekly water changes. I have good filter current flow, which should minimize any gas-release issues from the substrate, my plants really don't like having their roots disrupted on a regular basis, and as Byron has posted elsewhere, there is evidence that anaerobic pockets might not be all bad (at least for plants)! Note, I do like a thick substrate since I have lots of sword plants.


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## patadams66 (Apr 16, 2011)

Umm what's this about black sand? I def have some 
Showing on the glass...is that bad? What should I do about it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

patadams66 said:


> Umm what's this about black sand? I def have some
> Showing on the glass...is that bad? What should I do about it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There is a difference between "black" as I think DKRST meant it, and the normal darkening that I have just below the top of the substrate along the front on all my tanks, be they gravel, sand or Flourite. A few times I have pushed the siphon down and pulled up all the gravel, and this "film" is on the glass and will come off, usually with a light scraping. I've never bothered with it.

Byron.


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## DKRST (Jan 11, 2011)

Opps, sorry I wasn't specific enough! The "black sand" I was referring to are areas in my play sand tanks that start getting anaerobic and develop dark black areas (low O2 and starts getting black from hydrogen sulfide-generating bacteria), It's just aesthetically ugly to me, that's why I stir that particular area up - it oxygenates that area and eliminates the o2-poor spot, at least temporarily. As I said, I like a deep sand substrate (3-4") to support the roots of my swords and that leads to more potential issues with deep compacted sand areas. I have never had any issues in terms of hydrogen sulfide/compacted sand problems even when I don't regularly de-compact the sand in my tanks.


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