# Clownfish White Swollen Spot.



## zaitmi

I have 30 gallon Tank from last 5 mnths. 2 weeks back i added i clown fish and 1 damsel. Both of them are doing good but I am seeing one little swollen creamish white spot in front of th gill of my clown fish and one at the middle of the body though not swollen. 
What are these swollen white spots in front of the gills of Clown Fish ?:roll:
(they are bit swollen in clown fish and certainly not like ich)


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## bettababy

Is there any way to get closer, clearer photos of the infected fish? Those pics are not clear enough or close enough to diagnose this accurately.

Also, can you please include water params including ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, and calcium? And spg/salinity? Water temp?

Do you have a quarantine tank set up?

The more info you can supply the faster I can help you... but most important is the pics...


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## zaitmi

Thanks bettababy. 

Okay i will try to post close pics. tmrw. Though it is very difficult to take close pics, i tried with these pics. I will try tonight. (i was using 12 megapixel Sony digital camera bowwoed from my friend, i still have it for a couple of days). Clownfish is now getting a second one white cotton like swollen on its body though smaller.

Here are the test results done on 20/01/2010 :

Water Replaced 15 % after 17 days. Test done after replacement of water.
1. Salinity : 1.023
2. Ammonia : 0 ppm.
2.Nitrates :* 15 ppm.* (My Protein Skimmer was not working. My Airstone leaked so replaced it after 3days.)
3. *Ph : 7.9 with Tetra Test Kit & 8.3 with Sera Test Kit (Newly Purchased). ?????? why so much difference which one should i use next time ??*
4. Alkalinity : 9 dkh
5. Calcium : 420 ppm.

Yes i have a quarantine tank 11.5 gallons.


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## Pasfur

zaitmi said:


> 2.Nitrates :* 15 ppm.* (My Protein Skimmer was not working. My Airstone leaked so replaced it after 3days.)


For the record, 15ppm is not a bad Nitrate reading. The protein skimmer will help to reduce the rate at which nitrate increases, allowing the live rock and sand bed to attempt to serve as efficiently as possible, but even still many systems will have some nitrate accumulation. You are doing fine. No worries on this nitrate level.



> 3. *Ph : 7.9 with Tetra Test Kit & 8.3 with Sera Test Kit (Newly Purchased). ?????? why so much difference which one should i use next time ??*
> 4. Alkalinity : 9 dkh
> 5. Calcium : 420 ppm.


These numbers fit perfectly. Again, nice job. Everything is moving with a "balance". You are doing an adequate job of buffering and supplementation, combined with partial water changes. When you see alkalinity dip below 10dkh and calcium approaching the lower end of the scale, such as now, then it is time to add your additives. Again, nice job. You have come a long way with this system.

I will let BettaBaby elaborate on the infection.


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## bettababy

I am still going to need some photos for proper ID of the medical issue, but I can contribute a bit more in the mean time.
Try moving the infected fish to the quarantine tank before taking the photos. The smaller tank will make the close up photos much easier to obtain, and this will prevent the other fish from becoming infected (hopefully, since they have been exposed now), plus it will be much safer and easier to treat with medications, which is very possibly going to be needed if this is bacterial or fungal in nature.

The other things I'd like to contribute are about the water testing. First and foremost, always do water testing *before* doing a water change, or at least 48 - 72 hrs after if you hope to get an accurate reading. If you test before and then again after you will see the changes in the results. The before reading is what the fish have been living in, which may be contributing to a problem and after the water change those levels are altered/reduced, so you miss an important warning sign and very important information needed for a diagnosis of a medical condition. I see the testing was done on the 20th. Today is the 28th. Could you please test again before doing another water change and post those new results? 

As for the test kits, Sera is top of the line in accuracy (and price). Any chance you get to use Sera kits is a great thing and I would call the Sera kits much more accurate than any other except a digital meter. I say this after having worked with many different types of test kits over the years and having tested them at various times against digital meters.

I will be watching for the new photos.


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## zaitmi

Thanks for the reply. Great info...
Okay i will take him to Quarantine tank tonight. (QT Lights very low just a 30 watt bulb)
Okay water test *before* water change.
Okay i will try to use only Sera Test Kits in future.
Here are the pics i have tried yesterday with Sony Zoom Optical Lens.
Hope it helps...:roll:


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## Pasfur

Dawn... looks like lymphocystis. What do you think?


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## bettababy

Nope, looks fungal. I'll be back shortly with a treatment plan. I will need to know the water params in the QT tank, same as the others.. ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, and calcium. 
The amount of light in the QT tank should not be an issue, as the fish are not light dependent the way inverts/corals are. 
It would also be a good idea to keep a close eye on the other fish to be sure none of them develops the same symptoms. 

I'll be back soon.


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## bettababy

I'm sitting here staring at these photos... and I need to be sure. Is this growth fuzzy or does it more resemble cottage cheese? It is really hard to determine via photos.


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## zaitmi

bettababy said:


> Nope, looks fungal. I'll be back shortly with a treatment plan. I will need to know the water params in the QT tank, same as the others.. ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, and calcium.
> The amount of light in the QT tank should not be an issue, as the fish are not light dependent the way inverts/corals are.
> It would also be a good idea to keep a close eye on the other fish to be sure none of them develops the same symptoms.
> 
> I'll be back soon.


Thanks.

Test results of display tank done yesterday :
Salinity : 1.023 (Resun Hydrometer)(China Make)
Ammonia : 0.5 ppm (may be glass anmone shrimp died) (Prodac)
Nitrite : No Kit.
Nitrate : 10 ppm (Prodac)
Ph : 8.5 ppm (Sera)
Alkalinity : 9 dkh (Prodac)
Calcium : 420 ppm (Prodac)

I have seen one same type of spot in my electric blue damsel.

Will post QT results soon.

The white thing is cotton like swollen.

Do u need a video in google or youtube.


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## bettababy

A youtube video may help alot. I am trying to determine if this is indeed fungal or if it is lymphocystis as Pasfur suspected. With photos that are sort of fuzzy and not crisp, it is difficult for me to determine, but treatment would be extremely different if its one vs the other, so I want to be as sure as I can be before I offer any suggestions to you. 
If you can include photos and/or video of the damsel as well, that might also help. I apologize for the length of time it is taking to diagnose this problem, but I do need to be more sure of what exactly is going on. This would be much easier if I could examine the fish in person, but via internet, sometimes simple things become near impossible. 

One last question, and I'm sorry if it feels like I am repeating myself... the appearance of these lumps... is it smooth and cotton like or is it fuzzy/furry looking? I'm not sure if that makes sense to you or not... but its the best way I can think to describe the differences I need to know about before we proceed. In lymphocystis some people describe it as a cottony growth, but it is actually smooth, almost waxy in texture and substance, and is solid. With fungus growth it is more like fur, fuzzy in appearance with fibers to it, typically only visible via microscope, but it is not smooth or solid. Think of mold growing on a slice of bread or a brick of cheese... that would be fungal.

I will check back in here when I wake up, I need sleep now, its after 5am.


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## zaitmi

What do u say abt Sera Sea Salt. Are they also good? They are available here. My salt is finished which one should i buy, i was using Red Sea Salt Mix.


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## Pasfur

zaitmi said:


> What do u say abt Sera Sea Salt. Are they also good? They are available here. My salt is finished which one should i buy, i was using Red Sea Salt Mix.


Z - you have a very experienced person attempting to help you with your infection. Why are you not answering her questions?

I have no experience with Sera Sea Salt, but I have used Red Sea and would recommend it as a good option.


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## zaitmi

here is the video link :
YouTube - MOV00512.MPG


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## wake49

zaitmi said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Test results of display tank done yesterday :
> Salinity : 1.023 (Resun Hydrometer)(China Make)
> Ammonia : 0.5 ppm (may be glass anmone shrimp died) (Prodac)
> Nitrite : No Kit.
> Nitrate : 10 ppm (Prodac)
> Ph : 8.5 ppm (Sera)
> Alkalinity : 9 dkh (Prodac)
> Calcium : 420 ppm (Prodac)


I don't think that if the shrimp died a week ago that it would still be showing as an ammonia reading. You are either reading the test wrong, doing the test wrong, or the small ammonia spike is due to a dead spot in the water (lack of flow). You have enough rock in your tank so that any ammonia should be taken care of (as part of the nitrogen cycle). I am a little worried about that pH, as earlier this month you were testing at 7.9, 8.0...why the increasing pH with such a good dKH reading???



zaitmi said:


> The white thing is cotton like swollen.


Dawn, I think this is the answer to a question you asked. It was hidden in the same post as the test readings...


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## NC Frank

wake49 said:


> I don't think that if the shrimp died a week ago that it would still be showing as an ammonia reading. You are either reading the test wrong, doing the test wrong, or the small ammonia spike is due to a dead spot in the water (lack of flow). You have enough rock in your tank so that any ammonia should be taken care of (as part of the nitrogen cycle). I am a little worried about that pH, as earlier this month you were testing at 7.9, 8.0...why the increasing pH with such a good dKH reading???
> 
> 
> 
> Dawn, I think this is the answer to a question you asked. It was hidden in the same post as the test readings...


I believe he switched test kits. My tetra test kit says my PH is 8.0 but my API has it at 8.4.


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## bettababy

After watching the video I am tempted to agree with Pasfur on this one with the lymphocystis. The spots are not any clearer in the video, but having a chance to observe the fish's behavior, that does not look like a "sick" fish. Most fish suffering with fungal issues have other underlying problems, and then there are the conditions that caused the problem in the first place... which typically brings about some changes in behavior. I didn't observe any of those changes in the short video.

With lymphocystis you are dealing with a virus. It is highly contagious, so don't be surprised if other fish also come down with this problem. Unfortunately, when dealing with a virus, all we can do is let it run its course. The good news is that it is not contagious to invertebrates, only other fish. Some fish species are more vulnerable to it than others. 

If you were an advanced hobbyist I might instruct you to manually remove the lumps, but in your situation I am going to advise you to leave it alone and let it run its course. Lymphocystis is not commonly fatal if the fish's immune systems are not compromised by other illness issues, dirty/polluted water, low calcium, etc. The worst part about this virus is that it looks terrible.

If your fish develop any new symptoms or their behavior changes, please let me know and I will assist you in any way I can.


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## zaitmi

Thanks bettababy. I have transferred the clownfish to QT.

QT Test Results :

Ammonia : 0 ppm
Nitrate : 10 ppm
Ph : 8.5 (Sera)
Salinity 1.023

Okay i will wait but how long 1 month or more. How long does it usually takes to get rid of this virus ?


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## bettababy

There is no way to make such a prediction. A virus will run its course based on the strain of virus, immune system of the fish, etc. That is like asking someone how long they will have the flu, some people have it for 3 days and others have it for 3 months... there is no way to predict such a thing. I have seen lymphocystis go away in a few days, and I have seen it last months. If the damsel is showing symptoms, moving the clownfish only is sort of pointless. If the QT tank is large enough you should move them both or just leave them all in the main tank and let things run their course. Any of your fish that is vulnerable to it has already been exposed, so any of them may also come down with it. 

The best thing you can do is to just keep all of their conditions healthy and their food nutritious. Make sure each species is getting the proper nutrients from the food you're offering, and in variety so their immune systems stay strong and able to fight this thing. 

If you see other symptoms develop post them here and we'll look into any secondary issues that may arise. The only other thing I can think to tell you is that many fish who suffer from lymphocystis do get it again, even if nothing new has been introduced to the tank. So don't be overly surprised if it goes away and then all of a sudden one day it comes back again. That is common.

Good luck to you!


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## Pasfur

To put your mind at ease, I have rarely found Lymphocystis to be a serious problem. It is generally very mild and the fish generally show no signs of stress. If this is in fact what virus we are looking at in the video, everything will most likely be fine and the fish will probably fight the infection off with little problems. Just keep the water quality high.


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## zaitmi

Thanks a lot everybody. I will wait and respond accordingly but do i need to put back the clownfish as the yellow tail has a very mini swollen light blue cotton like thing in his/her body.

Okay i will stay with Red Sea. Okay will try to keep the water quality high.


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## Realistik84

Not that I am an expert, but shouldnt he keep the Clown and Damsel in a QT simply in the event the diagnosis is wrong.

Certainly BettaBaby and Pasfur are two of the most experieced aquarists I have ever had the pleasure to learn from, but let's be honest that the pictures and videos do make it difficult and there is some assumption here.

If it was not to be lymphocystis would the next assumption have a recommendation to QT?


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## zaitmi

Should i wait or put back clown to display. it is very difficult to assess yellow tail damsel small spot light blue colour thing.


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## zaitmi

can i use blade to clean front glass.


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## bettababy

My biggest concern with keeping both fish in QT is the size of the QT tank. If this is only a 10 gallon tank, thats not large enough to provide a real stable & healthy environment for both of those fish, which means using it for a hospital tank is not practical. I am still not sure that both fish are suffering from the same issue, either. The other fish in the main tank have already been exposed to whatever this truly turns out to be... lympho or fungal infection. The biggest reason for the QT is to medicate the fish without having to medicate everyone or cause potentail harm to inverts with medications. If there comes a situation to use medication, I would then be suggesting the QT tank. Outside of that... the choice is entirely yours where you keep them at this stage, as long as they have the best conditions for speedy recovery.

Yes, you can use a blade for scraping glass, that is what I use most often because it makes things much easier when it comes to scraping back coraline algae. Just be careful not to cut yourself or your animals.


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## zaitmi

Thanks. 
Okay i will be getting back the clownfish to display tank. I feel that place is more better with space and water quality.


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## Pasfur

Realistik84 said:


> Not that I am an expert, but shouldnt he keep the Clown and Damsel in a QT simply in the event the diagnosis is wrong.
> 
> Certainly BettaBaby and Pasfur are two of the most experieced aquarists I have ever had the pleasure to learn from, but let's be honest that the pictures and videos do make it difficult and there is some assumption here.
> 
> If it was not to be lymphocystis would the next assumption have a recommendation to QT?


This is a very very good point. The only reason I would personally favor the display is to reduce stress. I try not to move a sick fish unless necessary. If the fish are already in the Q, then I would personally keep them there. Everyone handles this a little differently, and it sounds like Dawn would actually move them back to the display.

At the end of the day, it is probably not going to change the outcome, given the fish in question. Clownfish and Damsels are very tough fish and handle stress well. If this were a Centropyge angelfish, for example, these frequent moves would likely worsen the situation.

Good post.


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## bettababy

Yes, Pasfur, if it were up to me I'd be moving the fish back to the main tank unless there was some other logical reason not to do so. Stress means a lot, especially when a fish is already sick. Stress weakens the immune system which makes it harder to fight disease and illness issues. If this is indeed lympho as we suspect, it could turn up in another species months after the current fish have returned to normal. Once exposed the virus runs its course, but then presents itself differently according to the individual fish and its immune system as well as according to species. Unfortunately, at this point in time, there is no treatment for it, no cure for it, no preventive for it. A virus is a virus, ever mutating to ensure its own survival. 

I would like to add that garlic in the diet may help a little bit. Garlic will help give a little boost to the immune system which helps the fish to fight the virus. If you can get the fish to eat a garlic laced food, or find them something they like that contains garlic, thats a plus. Also watch the water chemistry, not just ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and pH, but in particular calcium & spg/salinity. Calcium levels that go too low or too high will cause further issues for the fish and will weaken the immune system further, likewise with salinity. If you can keep all of that in check you should notice all of a sudden one day the lumps begin to shrink and eventually disappear.

Best of luck to you and your fish, let me know if you need further assistance or notice any new symptoms in any of the fish...


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## zaitmi

Thanks everybody.

The swollen thing has reduced a bit when i checked out last night in QT. Lets chk. tonight.

Can i add a moon wrasse in my display which is available in my LFS ?


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## bettababy

Right now you should not be adding *anything* to your display. When you have illness or disease problems, or other "issues" in an aquarium that is not the time to add anything new. Not only do you risk making a problem worse (added waste, stress, and potential for adding more disease/illness issues) you also would be exposing a new, possibly healthy fish to major health risks. Stress weakens the immune system, making a fish more vulnerable to any illness or disease it may be exposed to... moving a fish from wholesaler to lfs and then to a home tank is extremely stressful for any fish.

The best thing you can do right now is be patient and not do anything except wait out the current situation and keep it in the best conditions as possible.


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## zaitmi

okay no fish adding at this moment.

swollen like same, just a bit smaller.


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## zaitmi

Bad News ::-(

My clownfish vanished today morning from mt QT. Last night it was fine, i am feeling so bad abt. it. 
Must be taken by crows in early mornig from tank top hood sliding window which was open, never knew that this will happen. Oh God help me to keep fish.

Sorry everybody.


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## zaitmi

Has anyone read the above post? 

I will buy today some fishes to put them in my QT. (I will be alert with the crows this time)


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## bettababy

I have read it... am wondering why your tanks are not covered if there is a problem with such things? This is also not the time to be buying fish, you still have a sickly damsel in your main tank to deal with... this tank needs time to stabilize and the fish need time to get healthy first.

If you insist on purchasing more fish then please don't be surprised when you run into more problems. It is really kind of pointless for those of us here on the forum to continue to help you if you don't take any of the advice we offer. Without patience the saltwater hobby is very expensive and very frustrating... and deadly to the animals. 
I have to assume, like myself, nobody really knew what else to tell you... all I can do is be honest. I never mind helping anyone, but if they keep contributing to the problems there is nothing I or anyone else can do.

Please remember this when you post.


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## zaitmi

my damsel marks r gone. its doing good now can i buy strawberry dottyback. r they very aggressive. if ibuy i will put her in Qt for one month. plz reply.


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## Pasfur

zaitmi said:


> my damsel marks r gone. its doing good now can i buy strawberry dottyback. r they very aggressive. if ibuy i will put her in Qt for one month. plz reply.


I think this is a good hardy fish for you, but be aware it will become extremely aggressive in a small tank. I think you need to wait until May 1st before purchasing any more livestock.


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## bettababy

I agree with Pasfur completely.


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## Pasfur

I have moved a portion of this conversation to a new thread, located here http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/saltwater-fish-diseases/lymphocystis-treatment-37325/#post326205. This was done at the request of Wake to prevent the conversation from taking over an existing thread.


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## bettababy

Thank you Pasfur.


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