# Possible Old Tank Syndrome, fish swimming at top



## hnbayes (May 28, 2015)

I believe I have experienced Old Tank Syndrome. I noticed my platy and one danio swimming in the top corner several days ago, checked the water parameters, and the ammonia was at 0.25ppm. I immediately added Prime to the tank, and did a ~30% water change. The ammonia remained down over the next day, but the following morning I checked again and it was back to 0.25ppm, pH of 6.0, and 0 nitrates. I did another water change of ~25%, added a little prime once again, and things leveled out. This morning, ammonia back up again.

I have a large castle that I rarely clean under that I realize now I should have been, because I did another ~30% water change this morning and vacuumed under it, to find quite a bit of debris underneath the gravel. Since then, my platy has been swimming with his nose at the top of the water, lethargic, but still chasing off a danio every now and then.

All the other fish were swimming around fine about five hours ago, but now the two danios are also hovering around the top. My rosy barb and glass catfish are also near the top, but not at the surface.

If this is my fault, and it is Old Tank Syndrome, is there anything I can do to save my fish? 

The ammonia has been down all day, no nitrites, and the only thing that has moved quite a bit is the pH. Started at 6.0, was 7.6 (my tap pH) early this morning, and then back to ~6.4 after the water changes.

This is a 20gal, and addition to the platy and two danios, I have a rosy barb, glass catfish, cory catfish, pleco, and raphael catfish.

I greatly appreciate any advice anyone can offer...


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## aussieJJDude (Jun 9, 2012)

When is the last time the filter got a good clean? While doing a water change, make look into cleaning out the filter and removing the gunk that's in there? (Just clean with the removed water from the tank, so none of the beneficial bacteria is lost) 
Maybe cleaning out the filter will help get some flow in there (and thus get some surface agitation) helping out the fish. Also, how long has the tank been set up for? Do you have any live plants in there (or even "emergency" pothos houseplant to "suck up" all the nitrates and nitrites in there.)


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## hnbayes (May 28, 2015)

aussieJJDude said:


> When is the last time the filter got a good clean? While doing a water change, make look into cleaning out the filter and removing the gunk that's in there? (Just clean with the removed water from the tank, so none of the beneficial bacteria is lost)
> Maybe cleaning out the filter will help get some flow in there (and thus get some surface agitation) helping out the fish. Also, how long has the tank been set up for? Do you have any live plants in there (or even "emergency" pothos houseplant to "suck up" all the nitrates and nitrites in there.)



I'd say it's been at least five or six months. (How often is recommended?) That night I did take out a half a gallon or so to increase the oxygen, (and said a small prayer ;p) and the next morning, all the fish were swimming as normal! :-D I will clean the filter, though. Thinking back, this tank has been set up here for a little over a year, (two years at another location; I kept the same gravel/filter, different filter cartridge...not sure if that matters...), so I'm not sure if it could really qualify as an old tank. I think I was thinking more along the lines of the bio-load being too great for the size of the tank.

I have two amazon swords, two vallisneria, a water sprite, two moss balls, and another one that has a horizontal stem with leaves on top, (sorry, can't remember the name). I added these just for this purpose, because my nitrates have always seemed to be high while everything else was in the normal ranges.

Also, I've been checking for ammonia a couple of times a day/daily. A day or so ago, it was up to 0.25ppm again... at least in natural light. I couldn't understand why it would be back up again until I went into the kitchen, under artificial light, and it was 0ppm. I even went further and tested my tap, only to find the same results. Any thoughts on this? I'm wondering if the ammonia was ever high in the first place...


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## aussieJJDude (Jun 9, 2012)

Personally, I clean my filter out every month to ensure that it doesn't get loaded with gunk and gives:
a) plenty of currants for the fish to swim against; exercise those fat fins of them! LOL
b) Increase surface agitation
c) Decrease the chances of dead spots
I dunno about the ammonia readings, I've never experienced something like that. Maybe take a photo and take a look at it and see what the result says? (Just as lost as you!  )


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## hnbayes (May 28, 2015)

I'm sorry this has taken me so long! There wasn't too much gunk in the filter, but it's going good now. (Lol, they're loving the added current.) I added a hut that my raphael can't get through so cory and algae can still find something come dinner time, so maybe that will help with the feeding too. I'll keep checking on the ammonia thing, the picture was a good idea! Thanks so much for your help =)


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

some ammonia, low ph, and fish suffocating are all signs overdosing Prime.

Only dose prime when the free ammonia is measured. Most test kits (like the api test kit) measure total ammonia which included the dangerous free ammonia and the ammonia already locked up by prime. Use a test kit like the seachem ammonia test kit which measures free and total ammonia and only dose the free ammonia. I believe the seachem ammonia dot also only measures the free ammonia also.

.25 ppm ammonia in the api test kit is the lowest reading and sometimes (especially in saltwater tanks) measurement error.

IME it is much better to add fast growing plants like anacharis which will consume the ammonia directly (plus carbon dioxide) and return fish food and oxygen. Prime and other chemicals by comparison reduces the ammonia but also reduces the oxygen also. That reduced oxygen can have the same symptoms of fish as ammonia.

my .02


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## Kim (Apr 30, 2008)

beaslbob said:


> some ammonia, low ph, and fish suffocating are all signs overdosing Prime.
> 
> Only dose prime when the free ammonia is measured. Most test kits (like the api test kit) measure total ammonia which included the dangerous free ammonia and the ammonia already locked up by prime. Use a test kit like the seachem ammonia test kit which measures free and total ammonia and only dose the free ammonia. I believe the seachem ammonia dot also only measures the free ammonia also.
> 
> ...


Could you please elaborate on the prime overdose issue!? In the betta world it is often recommended to use prime daily to avoid ever doing 100% water changes in uncycled tanks. I've never thought uncycled tanks are a good idea and wondered if there were any eventual detriments of using prime daily. Seems like eventually the prime would build up to high concentrations and cause some problems, but I haven't found any research describing this. I'm really interested to hear how you have come across this information. Thanks!

To the OP: also check your GH and KH. If your tank has experienced a lot of evaporation in the past few years, it is possible that your levels are really high, and this could also stress the fish. I also want to note that my API ammonia test kit also gives a color that looks like 0 ppm or 0.25 ppm under different lighting. I tested pure RO water and got the same color, so now I just keep this in mind when interpreting results.


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

Kim said:


> Could you please elaborate on the prime overdose issue!? In the betta world it is often recommended to use prime daily to avoid ever doing 100% water changes in uncycled tanks. I've never thought uncycled tanks are a good idea and wondered if there were any eventual detriments of using prime daily. Seems like eventually the prime would build up to high concentrations and cause some problems, but I haven't found any research describing this. I'm really interested to hear how you have come across this information. Thanks!
> 
> To the OP: also check your GH and KH. If your tank has experienced a lot of evaporation in the past few years, it is possible that your levels are really high, and this could also stress the fish. I also want to note that my API ammonia test kit also gives a color that looks like 0 ppm or 0.25 ppm under different lighting. I tested pure RO water and got the same color, so now I just keep this in mind when interpreting results.


From the seachem web site:

(Seachem. MultiTest: Ammonia)



http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/MT_Ammonia.html said:


> MultiTest: Ammonia
> 
> Product Description
> 
> This kit measures total (NH3 and NH4+) and free ammonia (NH3 only) down to less than 0.05 mg/L and is virtually interference free in marine and fresh water. Free ammonia is the toxic form of ammonia (vs. ionized Ammonia NH4+ which is non-toxic) and thus it is much more important to keep an eye on the level of free ammonia in your system. This kit is based on the same gas exchange technology that is used in the Ammonia Alert™ and thus is the only kit on the market that can read levels of free ammonia while using ammonia removal products such as Prime®, Safe™, AmGuard™ and any similar


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

beaslbob said:


> some ammonia, low ph, and fish suffocating are all signs overdosing Prime.


How much is considered an overdose? You info from the Seachem site says nothing about the O2 levels. As far as I recall without looking at their site up to a 5x normal dose is safe for situations with ammonia or nitrite spikes. I normally double dose in most instances, knowing my supplier. I'll triple dose & do large water changes for a week when getting stock in. At the stocking levels I often have I'd have seen O2 issues long ago with Prime, though I've never gone beyond their 5x dosage maximum.


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

Tolak said:


> How much is considered an overdose? You info from the Seachem site says nothing about the O2 levels. As far as I recall without looking at their site up to a 5x normal dose is safe for situations with ammonia or nitrite spikes. I normally double dose in most instances, knowing my supplier. I'll triple dose & do large water changes for a week when getting stock in. At the stocking levels I often have I'd have seen O2 issues long ago with Prime, though I've never gone beyond their 5x dosage maximum.


You're correct with the 5x overdose.

Still the sulfide compounds that lock up ammonia do still reduce oxygen which has be admitted to by seachem technicians in emails. Still not something they want to advertise.

I have also read mds on other ammonia locks/dechlors from other manufacturers which issue an environmental warning to not release it in streams and ponds as it is toxic to aquatic life.

All of that from a compound to reduce ammonia which is directly consumed by plant life and the plant life also consumes co2 and returns fish food and oxygen.

If you must use Prime or other chemicals I highly recommend you measure the free ammonia and dose based on that measurement not recommendations of the manufacturer.

for instance it could be possible that all the ammonia is already locked and Prime is not necessary and detrimental.

The danger is you treat. Still test ammonia and treat again even if all the ammonia has been locked. All the while locking up more and more oxygen. Eventually, the fish can suffocate with the same symptoms of ammonia. So you can blame the chemical for being old or not working when it in fact it has worked and was the reason the fish suffered.

Meanwhile back at the plants, ammonia is gone, co2 is reduced and oxygen increased.

Which is why I use plants and no chemicals. But I run the tank fishless with plants for week and then add fish slowly. I do directly add untreated tap water but only to replace evaporative losses. And the fish never ever show any signs of stress.

While it is still possible under extreme circumstance (like the accidental introduction of a poison or toxin for instance) that Prime could be necessary, under any normal tank operations/cycle to plants are much better.

Still just my .02


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

And to kim and tolak

the OP is measuring the lowest ammonia on the api test kit which could be a measuring error.

And treating that with prime.

And has a low ph indicating a high co2 level.

And the fish are "hovering near the top".


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

Low pH has nothing to do with measuring the co2 level, or the O2 level, it has to do with measuring the acidity of the water. I can run RO through peat, get it down well below 6.0, how would this create a co2/O2 issue? Unless you dump a whole lot of Prime in a tank, well beyond the 5x maximum you won't see any O2 issues. 

As Kim mentioned, daily dosing an uncycled (often unfiltered) betta tank is pretty common. With the lack of surface motion in an unfiltered tank, along with the warmer temperatures bettas prefer you're already creating a situation where the O2 level would be lower. If Prime were that detrimental to O2 levels in a tank these would be among the first aquarists to experience issues with it. You'd see these poor fish utilizing that wonderful labyrinth organ near constantly. You don't hear of that. 

From what I've seen Seachem readily admits that the sulfide based compounds in Prime can reduce the O2 level, but the reduction is so slight as to be negligible when used per their instructions. These compounds are often used when shipping fish, another issue where lowered O2 levels come into play, yet fish shipped utilizing these compounds do fine by the countless thousands daily. Folks shipping fish are generally on the more advanced end of things, if these compounds were an issue wow would you be hearing about it. You don't.

Prime is one of the most widely used products in the hobby. Having such widespread usage if there were any issues with it it would be well noted. Sure, if you get in to the chemistry behind how Prime works it can potentially drop the O2 level. In practice it doesn't. I'm still waiting for an answer to my question; how much is an overdose?


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

beaslbob said:


> And to kim and tolak
> 
> the OP is measuring the lowest ammonia on the api test kit which could be a measuring error.
> 
> ...


Tank CO2 levels are not linked to pH rather the atmospheric CO2 levels outside the tank and maybe very slightly to the number of fish. CO2 will not rise much if at all above atmospheric levels in an aquarium before it out gasses into the atmosphere. The only way to have 'high CO2' level is with CO2 injection and specifically pressurized CO2 injection, which does raise tank CO2 levels by easily triple(30ppm). This is still a safe level for fish. You would need 50ppm or more to get fish hovering at the surface, been there don't that.


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## corina savin (Jul 11, 2012)

There are about 400 ppm CO2 in the air above the tank water (and 100 times more in the air you breath out). According to Henry's law, only a fraction dissolves in the water. Water in equilibrium with air contains only about 0.5 ppm CO2 (slightly more in colder waters).
There are natural water environments with toxic levels of CO2 (bogs and swamps). It does not come from fish respiration. CO2 accumulates over time from the organic breakdown. Unlike oxygen and nitrogen, CO2 reacts with water and forms carbonic acid, bicarbonate and carbonate. Those four are at equilibrium with each other, a different one, independent of air/water. The water that is high in carbonates is able to hold a lot more CO2 at equilibrium.


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

Hey corina, due to the more advanced nature of where this topic is drifting to I've started one concerning the O2 level & Prime usage; http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/advanced-freshwater-discussion/prime-oxygen-levels-568810/


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