# Need help please!



## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

To top off a terrible day I come home and discover my Rainbow and Congo are having problems. I can't believe it...I am so diligent about keeping a clean tank and religious with weekly water changes. Here's the readings I took today.
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrates between 5-10
Ph 7.5 
Tank Temp 77F
Last water change was yesterday(Sunday) about 25%
I always gravel vac at each water change.
The fish are fed a varied diet which consists of flake and NLS pellets as the staple with frozen bloodworm and brine shrimp a couple times a week as well as the occasional pea. They also snack on zuccini, algae wafers and tropical wafers that I feed the bottom dwellers. They also had live brine recently.

First up, my Boesemani has a white growth on his lip. Could this be columnaris?

















My biggest female Congo appears to have maybe a fungal or bacterial infection just below her dorsal fin.









And one of the male Congo appears to have the beginnings of maybe something similar?









Everyone is eating well. I haven't noticed anyone flashing. The rainbow does gape his mouth.

I have read that Congos can be prone to fungus when stressed. Being new in the tank could that possibly be what this is? There's some redness so I'm thinking maybe bacterial? Are parasites a possibility?

Please help me help my babies!


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

aww you poor thing 
bacterial i think,
did you net them before adding them,or did you add lfs water ?


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

I am not a fan of using meds. or chemicals in the aquarium except in extreme emergencies. Being as how the affected fish are the latest addition to your tank and your water tests and maint. regime are good, I would go along with previous poster in that water from lfs probably was not of the same quality as what you have in your tank.And PH shock may have playeed a part if fish were not quarantined or acclimated properly. Most fishstores do not use UV sterilization and the same water runs through all of their tanks making it easier for parasites and bacteria to be transferred from tank to tank. That is why some recomend quarantine tank for all new fish before adding them to your aquarium. If you are set on trying meds. to save the affected fish MELAFIX is a medicine you may wish to consider. If you use it or any other medications follow the directions MORE is not BETTER. some medications recomend removing any carbon filtration while using them and sometimes water changes are needed between doses. I hope your fish recover and for the record ,I am , no expert on fish diseases but only can suggest options you may wish to consider. GOOD LUCK :wink:


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## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

Thanks for the replies guys.

The rainbows I've actually had for about 6 months. The affected female Congo I've had about 2 weeks and the male Congo a little longer. To acclimitize I float the bag in my tank for about 15-20 minutes then add about 1/2 cup of my tank water to the bag, wait about 5-10 minutes, add another 1/2 cup and repeat this about 5 times. Then I net the fish out. I never add the LFS water to my tank (nasty!).

This morning when I checked on them the rainbows lip was much better. It appears to be going away. The Congo looked about the same. I will keep a close eye on them. I do have Melafix and Pimafix on hand. 

Shame, shame on me for not having a QT tank. All I have available right now is an empty 5 gallon and there's no way these guys would fit into that! lol


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

great news,i'm glad they are on the up.
nothing worse than the helpless feeling.


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## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

Glad to hear things are getting better. I was worried that your new fish had passed something on to your boesmani, hopefully that's not the case. Definitely a lesson in quarantine tanks. I have such a hard time keeping one- I keep turning my QT's into another full time tank!


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## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

lol...that's probably what I would do too since I would probably need at least a 20 long for a QT/hospital tank for these guys. It would be so hard to have that tank sitting empty!


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## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

Last night I noticed the white growth was back on the Rainbows lip. He's gaping his mouth almost like he can't close his mouth. When I fed them he tried to eat but because he couldn't close his mouth the food just floated back out. I tried looking in his mouth but didn't see any growth in there. It did look a little red on the inside. 

Also, the patch on the female Congo isn't any better. In fact, it looked a little bigger. And the male Congo has a white pimple like growth on his side similar to what's on the rainbow's lip. I started Melafix/Pimafix treatment but not sure if this will help.

Anyone have any ideas of what this is? Is the Melafix/Pimafix the right treatment for this or do I need something stronger?


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## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

I went home at lunch today and the female Congo looks worse. The patch has gotten bigger and redder. She also is developing the white growths. One of the other Rainbows also has the growths on his lip. The male Congos are getting these growths on them as well. 

Anyone have an idea of what I should treat them with? These are my babies and I fear I may lose the whole lot.  

Please help!


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Hi! I've spent some time going over the posts and descriptions of how things have come about, and also the photos. 
What I am seeing is what appears to be a viral infection on the mouth, and then I am also seeing what appears to be secondary infection which is likely both bacterial and fungal. I say that because of it's characteristics and your descriptions of how this has progressed.

Before treating this with any new medication, it's going to be very important to get carbon back into your filter for 24 hrs and to do a 25% water change, to remove the Melafix/Pimafix medications out of the tank.

The proper meds to treat this are going to be Furacyn and Kanacyn together. There is no treatment for a viral infection, unfortunately, so I won't expect this to clear up the problems on the mouth of your rainbow fish. Viral problems have to run their course. The meds I am prescribing here are to treat the secondary infections that were most obvious in the congos. Please follow all instructions on the medications, and please use them both at the same time. 

There is also a possibility of a parasite issue, which could be where some of this began. The best thing to do right now is to get the Kanacyn and Furacyn in there to clear up the secondary infection so we can better diagnose any primary issues that will have caused that. There are steps that can be taken later if there is, in fact, a parasitic problem to be dealt with. It's very hard to diagnose this sort of thing long distance via the internet. If I were able to examine the fish, get a scraping to put under the scope, we would have exact answers of the extent of the problem. So, with the situation what it is, this is the best approach I can offer to you. My hopes are that these fish are strong enough to fight off the illness with the help of the medications, but sadly, I have to warn... not all of these fish may survive. Keep them clean, keep their temp stable, and keep them as stress free as possible during treatment.

I will agree with the importance of a quarantine tank. You could have saved yourself a lot of heartache and possibly lives of the fish if you had quarantined the new fish for 2 - 3 wks, which should be standard procedure in anyone's tank. 
Best of luck to you! If things should appear to worsen or any new symptoms appear, please let me know. We can adjust treatment as needed, but I think these meds should do the trick. Also, please don't use aquarium salt on these fish... the rainbows might be able to handle a salt treatment, but the congos would suffer.


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## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

Hi Dawn, 
thanks for the reply. The first thing I did when I got home was a water change and I've put carbon back in the filter. I will pick up the meds tomorrow. By the time I get home from work tomorrow it will have been 24 hours from adding the carbon and I can start treatment.

Again, I really appreciate your help. I will keep you updated.

Jeanine


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## Kim (Apr 30, 2008)

Hi,
I am definitely not an expert when it comes to sick fish, but the white spot on your fish's mouth looks a lot like something that I have read about called cotton mouth. If this is the case, you may want to try Jungle Fungus Eliminator or Jungle Fungus Clear because it is a fungal infection. If only one of your fish seems to have this, I would put him in a hospital tank to avoid overly stressing your other healthy fish. I can't help much about the others because I have never seen this before. Also, I once used Melafix on a betta that I got from the pet store that had fin rot (surprise, surprise) and what I did not realize was that if you dose according to the directions, the stuff will build up terribly in the water. It is clear and I didn't even notice it until after a week of putting the stuff in. I felt terrible when I found out! Just a word of caution, and you may want to check this before putting any new meds in. Again, I am not an expert but this is just what I thought of when I saw your pictures. Good Luck!
Kim


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## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

This morning before leaving for work I took a glance in the tank to check on the fish. There was no sign of the female Congo. I checked in all the plants, lifted up the driftwood and tree stump...couldn't find her anywhere. I checked the floor around the tank. Not there. I was just about to leave when I glanced in one more time and noticed Hershey, my pleco, munching on something in the grass. If was the female. She was laying deep down in the grass and still alive. Poor thing was on her way out. So I netted her out and had to put her in the freezer to euthanize her. I felt terrible but I didn't have any clove oil on hand.

When I first saw the bumps on the Rainbows mouth I thought of Columnaris also (which is mouth fungus, right?). But I always thought Columnaris was more threadlike and cottony looking. These were like little hard bumps. Also, these white bumps are also on the body of the fish not just the mouth. So I wasn't sure. But I could be wrong. If it is Columnaris it looks like the Furacyn will treat that. I will be picking up the meds at lunch time. Hopefully these are meds that are readily available.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

I'm very sorry to hear about your female congo. That is very sad... but I did warn that the problems are quite advanced and severe.

I just want to touch on a note about the meds. There seems to be a lot of controversy about what the right med is... 

A company called Aquatronics used to produce a medication called Spectrogram. It was noted to help specific species more than others... and the rainbows and tetras are on that list. Aquatronics went out of business a few years back, so I have been forced to find the equivelant to the best of their medications based on ingredients.

Not all medications are safe for all fish, and not all medications are as potent as others. Furacyn and Kanacyn together will treat like the Spectrogram because it is essentially the same ingredients, and handles both bacterial and fungal infections when used together, or as in this case, the underlying bacterial infection which thus feeds the fungus. If only one of those illnesses is treated, the fish won't get well, and will repeatedly get the same illness and symptoms over and over again.
Most of you who know me around here know that I am a strong supporter of Fungus Eliminator... but in this situation, the ingredients in fungus eliminator are not going to be safe for congo tetras. Fungus clear by itself isn't likely to handle both bacteria and fungal together... so I relied on something I know works on both problems based on the type of fish that are being treated.

Fish medications seem to be floating around like candy these days, which really scares me. It seems that the majority of people don't realize that any of these medications can be highly toxic if used on a fish who is sensitive to even 1 ingredient... and it takes a lot of time and study and research to be familiar with the most common medications and the ingredients in them. 
In situations like this, where you aren't sure... it's better to seek out someone who is sure rather than to guess... unless you're into killing innocent animals that can usually be saved. I have about 10 yrs of experience doing this now, and my husband has over 15 yrs... and a degree in aquatic biology. I try to make myself available to anyone who needs help both in pm here and in private email, and I have the text books and access to many of the manufacturers, something that the majority of people don't have. So instead of guessing when trying to help someone here, please... ask for help. It's not very nice to convince someone that you know what you're talking about when you really know very little... and it's not very nice to toss out suggestions that are potentially fatal to the other person's animals.


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## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

Well, I tried 5 different places and nobody had the Furacyn and Kanacyn. These are what was available:

Maracyn
Maracyn 2
Furan-2
Erythromycin
Tetracyline
Triple Sulfa
API Fungus Cure (3mg Victoria Green B & 30mg Acriflavine)

Are any of these safe alternatives?


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Of those medications you can treat the bacterial problem but not the fungal. The problem is that not all medicines are safely mixed. The Furan-2 has nitrofurazone in it, but it also has furadolizone. I will have to find something else to replace the Kanacyn for you, but from your list of options, nothing there is even close to Kanacyn.
Is it possible to order the meds online? I know that Dr's Foster & Smith have overnight shipping available. If online is an option, I will see if I can find both meds in the same place. 
I will do some checking to make sure the furazolidone content won't be harmful to your fish, I'll be back here later as soon as I get home, and will bring you some answers. Hang in there!
Also, you might want to ask the lfs if they can order them for you. They should have it available if they are carrying the others you listed, they may just not stock it because there isn't enough business for that particular med.


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## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

I thought about the online ordering too. I checked Drs. Foster & Smith and Bigalsonline but neither listed either one of those medicines. I will do some more checking around.

The API Fungus Cure claimed to treat fungus and secondary bacterial infections. This won't work for the fish I have?


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## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

Dawn,
After getting home from work and taking a close look at the rainbows it appears that the bumps are taking on a fuzzy appearance. I still have Columnaris screaming at me in the back of my mind. I've read that Kanacyn is a first choice for treating this but as an alternative Erythromycin (Maracyn) can be used. What do you think?


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

I wouldn't suggest the Fungus Cure without a quarantine tank, as acriflavin is some nasty stuff. It will stain everything, including you, and it's impossible to remove the staining from the silicone seals in your tank and anything like silk plants, decorations, etc. that it touches.

I think of those medications, you're going to have the best luck with the Furan 2 by itself. If we need to run a 2nd treatment later to handle 1 issue or the other, that is still going to be better than doing nothing at all, or mismedicating. The only one on there that's going touch this issue, really, with any practicality is the Furan 2. 

Keep me posted on their progress, and if you notice any new symtoms, or if anything should worsen, please pm me. Watch your fish for signs of distress, such as heavy breathing, lack of activity level, loss of appetite, loss of color, etc. Should you see any new symptoms that look to be extreme, like the heavy breathing, add the carbon back to the tank and do a 25% water change asap. I am not expecting any of your fish to have a bad reaction, but there is always that risk.
Best of Luck to you!


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## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

Thanks for all your time and effort. I will keep you posted of any new developments.


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## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

Good luck- I know how much you love your boesmani!


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## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

UPDATE:
So I've done 2 full courses of treatment with the Furan-2 (4 days per course with 25% water changes every 2 days). The Congos are cleared up. One Boe is completely cleared up and one has just a tiny spot left on his lip but the third one still has some fuzz on his lips but it is MUCH better. Should I continue with more Furan-2 or just clear the meds out with water changes and keep on eye on it?


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## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

I would say continue until there are no more symptoms. Also, if you haven't already, raise the temperature, as this will speed the life cycle of most bacteria.


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## Flashygrrl (Jan 18, 2008)

If it's Columnaris you actually want lower temps. Slower growth=less to treat.


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## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

I've left my tank at it's current temp of 77F.

I'll continue with the meds.


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## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

Ahh, sorry, you're so right- silly me! Good luck with the rest of treatment!


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