# How to tell someone their setup is bad?



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Ok, so there is a daycare that I am often helping in for one of my classes and they have a big fish tank that is honestly depressing. It seems not well kept and all the fish are very pale and obviously unhappy. But their tank maintenance is their problem I wouldn't try to change that, the problem is the fish. 
It is socked with :
1 large parrot cichlid 
1 large tinfoil barb
4 tiger barbs
And wort of all, one green spotted pufferfish.Eeek!
The pufferfish looks really sick and a yellow color with faded grey spots. It is really sad. They need to live in brackish water and a freshwater setup is simply not acceptable, especially one with no plants and these tank mates! I don't know how long they have had the puffer but I am assuming he is relatively new because he is still alive. And then the tinfoil barb, don't they need at least four others to school with? He is big and slow moving and the tigers will often nip and harass him. The cichlid just wanders around and does his own thing. I don't know how big the tank is, but it is large, probably enough space for what they have but not big enough to add more. There are also very few hiding places in the tank. 
So, obviously, nothing about this setup really works. 
My main concern is the pufferfish. The other fish can at least survive and be sad but the pufferfish won't. Chances are he is not being fed the proper food either to get him nutrients and trim his beak. I feel like they need to know the situation because I am quite sure they would not want to be cruel and are just ignorant or misinformed. I'd be happy to tell them if I had a tank to give them or to take the puffer for them, but I don't. So if I tell them, I can't really offer any help to fix the situation other than my knowledge. 
Ideas? I hate to see the fish looking so bad, but I don't know how to help!
Thank you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GwenInNM (Feb 2, 2011)

squishylittlefishies said:


> Ok, so there is a daycare that I am often helping in for one of my classes and they have a big fish tank that is honestly depressing. It seems not well kept and all the fish are very pale and obviously unhappy. But their tank maintenance is their problem I wouldn't try to change that, the problem is the fish.
> It is socked with :
> 1 large parrot cichlid
> 1 large tinfoil barb
> ...


This is really sad. I would offer to bring in snails (most any fish store should just give you some) for the puffer and start there. Just be honest and educate them about the requirements of fish. Can you volunteer to do a water change for them? Why not ask? I'm sure they'd be grateful for the advise. I don't think people intend to be mean to fish, they are just so uninformed, and don't think fish "deserve" enough bother/research. The puffer can live in freshwater, but not forever, though people claim to do it. It's probably just extremely stressed, and if the water parameters are poor, that won't help, on top of not getting the right food. The other foods GSP's love is raw shrimp, clams, mussels. Go to your grocery store and get one raw shrimp, offer a small piece to him, but don't overfeed. Just till his belly is round.


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

That is a good idea. I have a few pesky snails in my fish tank that hitchhiker on a plant.mi can bring those in
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## henningc (May 20, 2013)

Ask them if they would allow you to maintain the tank. Be responsable for it and teach whoever is doing it now what to do.


----------



## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

I would tell them the same thing you just told us, with special emphasis on the part about no one WANTS to be cruel.


----------



## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

How's it going with this tank? Have you made any progress? It's been a few days... wondering how things are with this puffer/tank.


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Hey guys, sadly I have not been able to do anything yet because I haven't had the chance to go over to the child care centre for awhile I'm off the break at the end of this week hopefully all the fish are still alive.... Ima pick up some more snails from my lfs soon and I'll bring those in too. Thanks for all your input!


----------



## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Let us know how it goes when you get back in there! I really hope you are able to help those fish out, somehow. . . 

I found myself in a similar situation last year in my daughter's kindergarten class. I ended up taking over the tank, and was able to turn it into a fantastic learning experience that the whole class participated in - it was a lot of work, and stressful to maintain a tank out of my home, but overall a positive experience - especially for the kiddos! 

I hope you find some way to turn this situation around, please keep us updated on how things turn out - and good luck!


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Tic toc still not much going on....
I feel like the whole situation is a little bit awkward. For you, as a parent who is in there a lot it was probably pretty simple, but I'm a student there and my class has not put me in the daycare more than a few times. I don't know, it just seems like it will be weird when I, a random student, go into the daycare and just like start talking about their fish haha. They'll be like...So...why are you here? Haha.
Anyway, this week I hope I'll be able to get in there! Well just have to see what happens!


----------



## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

I did it at my daughters daycare! I just talked to the director about it and they were very happy for the help and advice. I do the upkeep sometimes but I've taught them how to as well. Honestly i'm a really shy person (dont be shocked people lol) , but I just walk on into the staff kitchen like i own the place grab the supplies *I* put in there and go about water changes on my own lol. I've donated the tanks to seperate everyone properly. Yes I get some looks from teachers(especially new ones!) like "who the hell is she?!?" haha. Just get up the nerve and talk to them. Good luck!


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Ok guys, I just got back from the daycare, so I have more info! I haven't offered to do anything yet, I just wanted to look around and gather some info so I can go in prepared to help next time. 
.
The pufferfish is dead:'( 
They said they had her for about 6 mo before she died. They said they had just got a big batch of glofish or something and she was attacking the bag they were in before they even released them into the tank. They put them in anyway and they all *mysteriously* disappeared. She died just after that. They think eating them made her sick, but I dunno, she looked pretty bad before then IMO. 
A few things, firstly, I don't thing glofish are compatible with really any of this tanks inhabitants. Second...if a fish is showing such aggression towards a new member before it's even added, why would you put them all in anyway? I think these guys really do just need somebody to help them learn about what does and does not work. 
So, back to the inhabitants that are currently alive in the tank. I don't have personal experience with the fish so I'm not sure what's normal but I'll upload some pictures and tell y'all what seems to be awry. So. 
The tiger barbs seem basically ok. The parrotfish seems stressed, but also Okish.
He keeps his tail fin shut all the time... Seems stressed? Stays mostly in the corner of the tank and seems to keep his fins more at his sides I think.
The silver fish(will somebody ID him for me?) is the worst off as far as I can see. 
His left eye is very filmy looking.
He has a white almost cheesy waxy coating over his body. I don't know if that's just his normal slime coat or what, but there are tons of areas where it seems that the coating is dented, peeling, or there are big missing patches. His skin seems almost veiny in places too... Very strange. 
He is always flicking his dorsal fin to the left, like he is trying to use it to swim... Again, I don't know if that is abnormal for his species. You can see how it is kind if bent in the pictures.


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Another picture.


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

I'm sorry these are all sideways, I don't know why they are uploading like that!
The places I see the most damage on his scales/coating are the top of his head, right before his tail, and by his back.


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Poor fishy. It really makes me think of like, if you were carving a block of soap or wax with something kind of sharp like a butter knife or pencil. That's just how I would describe all the scratches and chunks out I see on his body.


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Last picture. Sorry there were so many! I couldn't decide haha


----------



## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

They look so very sad don't they? And not in good health at all. Can't help with the species but am rooting for them and can't wait to read your "Plan of Attack" and follow along as they recover.


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Thanks I just need some more info on species,c are, and compatibility and hopefully we can turn this tank around into something happy and beautiful!
Edit: I just looked up some pics and I'm pretty sure he's just a sick tinfoil barb. He's got a faint red tint on his fins, and the face shape.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

I agree on Tinfoil Barb but the name wouldn't come to me to post it. It was driving me nuts. lol. thanks. 

Can you get the tank measurements to determine the tank size? # gallons you are working with?


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Yup, I'll try. Compared to the pictures of what a tinfoil barb should look like, I realize how bad this one looks. No shine at all...eek
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Those poor things. T___T 
I really hope you can help. . .
We need some stocking help on this thread STAT!!!


----------



## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

Ok so correct me if I'm wrong.... There used to be some kind of Puffer in there too? But NOW there are ONLY these 2 fish left in a "good sized" tank? Have you been able to figure out who at least adds water to it or feeds them?
So 1 Parrot fish and 1 Tinfoil Barb.... we think!?


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

No, there are about 5 tiger barbs too, and yes the puffer is dead. So ther are probably 7 fish riht now, yeah, it's a pretty big tank but I have to get the measurements on it still...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Also, I'm pretty sure this is an unlit tank so adding plants will not be an option in the future
I think tomorrow's the day! Im gonna try really hard to get in there and ask if they'ed be willing to let me help them with their tank in making a lovely community and aqua scape...Because I just love fish so much. Haha we'll see how it goes. 
Hopefully they'll say yes and I can get the tank dimensions and We'll go from there!
If the tank is large enough, would it be good for me to suggest they get a few more tinfoils? I just wouldn't want to tell them to introduce healthy fish if he'll make them sick... But it's very likely that he just looks bad because of stress in which case adding more will help him get better and be good overall.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

I looked up their profile and it says a group of 6 needs a 200 gallon tank... so I think maybe hold off till you have more info. JMO. If the tank is not 200 gallon then they are over stocked already even with the Puffer gone.


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Really? Just those fish need 200 g? Wow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

ok, I didnt get to go in today, but I did peer through the window on my way past, and based on comparisons to my body measurements and previous fish tanks I am guestimating about 125 gallons is the size of this tank. Does that get us anywhere, as far as planning goes?
Thanks!


----------



## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

That's magnificent if it is!! And yes that will definitely help you. We just don't want to add more fish and poop to a tank until we get what's there under control! 

Questions to ask about the Tinfoil Barb... were the other fish taking chunks out of him? Are they aggressive? to One more of their species (like an Angelfish) or do they do well with even one more of their own kind? I just want you to be very aware of what is going on in that tank before you add anything. 
The Parrot fish... I don't know anything about them either and often see them in bigger groups but I've heard they can be mean too. (Can they be alone? 2? 5?)
I sure wish someone with experience with these 2 species would advise us a bit.


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

From what I have read! parrotfish can do well as a single fish. They do not need a group, but work just as well with one. I have seen the tiger barbs nip at the tinfoil on occasion, but they don't seem to be showing the kind of aggression necessary to do the damage that I?me seeing on this fish. I think tinfoil brbs are the kind of fish that just enjoy company of their own kind. A large school is best, but it doesn't seem like a small group will cause agression(like it would in some species) I have heard of people keeping them in pairs or small groups with no fighting I think...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Ok, I finally went in and asked if I can help! She said I can do whatever I want with the tank haha she said they had all been doing great until christmas break when she added some new fish and now everything is sick. She knows the tank is in bad condition and seems happy to have some help. The tinfoil barb is much worse now, completely fogged over and nasty looking. Parrotfish is the same and the tiger barbs have red bloody looking spots on them 
We're not sure who is beating them up, but chances are they are fighting among themselves. There are only three tiger barbs. 
Apparently I totally underestimated the size of the tank, it is only 75 gallons which puts up another blockade for us. The tiger barbs need a larger school to become healthy but it seems really risky to add any other fish until the general health of the fish in here goes back up. Mainly the tinfoil barb. 
!!!!! Soooo... What now? I said I want to help but I'm not sure where to start now or what to do. Please help !!!!!
They do have a light in the hood so I'm thinking we could start by planting the tank and working on the aquascape? We could use easy cheap beginner plants and I think that would improve the condition of the tank. I'm not sure what is to be done with the fish at this point though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Oh, there is also a Pleco in there...0_O

I have a chunk of wood and some rocks I could donate to the tank but that's all for now...


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Added the driftwood and some plant starts. The Pleco will probably eat them all so I am floating what plants I can, but they are just very small pieces. They should grow out pretty fast though I tried feeding them bloodworms but the big fish would not eat them. The tiger barbs ate them though
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Picture!!!! I added the wood and rocks on the left and you can see some little tiny floating plant pieces. They'll grow haha


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Bum bump bump
All the tiger barb fish are bleeding what do I doooo?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

What do you mean by bleeding?
Can you test the water parameters in the tank?
Also would you be allowed (and willing) to euthanize the tinfoil barb? :/


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

They all have big red patches and spots all over their bodies. One in peticular has been hiding by the heater sometimes, and his whole side is just red. It looks terrible. I mean, it's not oozing or anything, but bright red and bloody looking
I have no idea if she'd let me do that.. Kinda scared to ASK... I know it would really help us get moving and pull the tank together before everything else dies too but she might think that seems cruel or too extreme. I'll ask how old he is, if he's way old it would be easier for her to consider, I think. 
How does one euthanize a fish. I've never done it before either so I don't know what I'd need to do it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

Have you been able to test the water yet with a Liquid Test kit? I think that is the best place to start. She has given you permission to help so I would start there. Once they see you being all very "scientific".... they'll be sure to let you do what ever you need to. Especially if she doesn't know what to do herself. Then I would a do a water change if you can manage it.


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Ok, my test kit is for reef water, but it can be used for fw, it's the same exact thing, just different color codes. The results are a bit shifty for 0-1 ammonia since I don't have a good printed chart, but if the concentration is high enough to really be a concern I will be able to tell easily. 
Also, back to the topic of euthenization, I don't know how I'd do that because the fish is so big. I did some research on the topic and honestly I'd freak out trying to use brute force or the brain scrambling thing. Does anyone know how much clove oil it would take for a big fish like this? I'm just gathering information right now....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

T___T
From what I've read, clove oil is iffy unless you know the exact weight of the fish, it's impossible to calculate the correct dosage to put them to sleep without pain. The methods that I see most often recommended around here are ice-water and the freezer. . . I'd probably bring the fish home to do this. *sigh*


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Ice water/freezer is a slow painful method. It is great for reptiles, but fish will not die instantly from being frozen
This method is reccomended against by the AMVA as a method that should not be employed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

I know, though I have read different recommendations when it comes to the ice water method and it being humane. I _REALLY_ hate fish-keeping when it comes to this question. . . there just isn't a very good way to do it. 

To be honest... with warnings cuz' what I'm about to say may disturb you - the best way I've ever seen posted on here is the garbage disposal. This is quick, for sure - but not something that would be easy for someone like me to do, though much easier than blunt force trauma, and quicker than the freezer. 

In the UK they have a product that has been specifically designed to euthanize fish. I can't recall what it's called atm, but at last check it was not available here. Perhaps you could get it sent, but by the time it arrived from overseas, the question may be moot. 

*hugs* I'm so sorry you have to start fixing this setup on such a sad note. . .


----------



## Flear (Oct 5, 2012)

i'm not normally a fan of medication (if alternatives are available)

the tinfoil barb you said had a pasty covering on it.
you mentioned things were fine till they added some new inhabitants (then everything went downhill)

time to medicate i'm thinking.
dono about fungus or parasites (and this much is just a guess as well)

i would recommend against euthanizing fish, ... but that's personal, i don't mean to be cruel (and expect to be told i am), ... i just don't like to give up too soon - and i don't have a clue what symptoms to notice that say a fish is beyond hope

snails, ... i would recommend malaysian trumpet snails or assassin snails, ... or MTS first and assassin snails later for population control, ... to have them work on the substrate.

i'd look desperately for a way to get some plants in there that would survive, ... the hard part is what is going to survive without sufficient light, ... good question. although duckweed is always good, ... if it survives, it's something, if it doesn't, no big loss

the foam bubbles have me concerned, just one of those "that can't be a good sign" things

large water change ?


----------



## Flear (Oct 5, 2012)

i'd agree with chesh, ... when a fish IS beyond hope, ... if you can't do painless, do quick, ... then it's over quickly at least.


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

squishylittlefishies said:


> Ice water/freezer is a slow painful method. It is great for reptiles, but fish will not die instantly from being frozen
> 
> This method is reccomended against by the AMVA as a method that should not be employed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



There is a BIG distinction between an ice bath and freezing. 

Ice water is not a slow method - takes seconds. Furthermore, it IS recommended by the AVMA.

Maceration (garbage disposal) is recommended as well.


----------



## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

PFK recently posted an article saying that ice bath is NOT humane for larger fish though, and this fish does seem to be larger. :/
I recommended to euthanize the fish because it is sick with no where to be put to recover (I assume), plus bringing in the species to consideration it would be difficult to try and rehome it properly in its current state.


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

It's definitely not practical for a large fish. Too, the increased volume to surface area ratio of a larger bodied fish means that the results will take longer. 

How big is too big for the ice bath? I used it on a big fat fancy goldfish and it took about 5-6 seconds instead of the normal 2-3. Does that make it inhumane? I don't know. I certainly wouldn't want to use it on anything bigger, that's for sure.


----------



## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

squishylittlefishies said:


> Ice water/freezer is a slow painful method. It is great for reptiles, but fish will not die instantly from being frozen
> 
> This method is reccomended against by the AMVA as a method that should not be employed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



This is NOT humane for reptiles. It's very painful for them. You'd have to anesthetize prior to freezing them. The method recommended for reptiles is injection of barbiturates or a sharp blow to the brain right behind the eye.

However with fish if done right *with enough ice * they will die instantly. I've even had my 5yr old daughter use this method . 


Sent from Petguide.com App


----------



## Flear (Oct 5, 2012)

for air breathing critters i've heard CO2, the critter just falls asleep as asphyxiation takes hold

not possible for aquatic environments.


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Flear said:


> for air breathing critters i've heard CO2, the critter just falls asleep as asphyxiation takes hold
> 
> not possible for aquatic environments.



I'm pretty sure you can gas your fish.


----------



## Flear (Oct 5, 2012)

but then they're at the surface desperate for air, ... from what it sounds others have been through when they had a problem with their CO2 injection, ... sure it killed their fish fast, ... but even then it doesn't sound fast enough to be humane

Edit:
on another note ...

for fishing, ... how humane is it to beat a fish over the head with a stick till dead ?


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Flear said:


> but then they're at the surface desperate for air, ... from what it sounds others have been through when they had a problem with their CO2 injection, ... sure it killed their fish fast, ... but even then it doesn't sound fast enough to be humane
> 
> Edit:
> on another note ...
> ...


Yeah I don't know if that's considered humane or not.

Well I work on a fishing boat - I filet fish while they are still alive so if I were to concern myself with dispatching the fish humanely, I would get laughed off the boat. Tuna (most commonly hit over the head with a bat) have a soft spot on top of their heads - A single, decisive blow will knock the fish out, if not kill it. A second blow ensures it's dead. If you have to repeatedly bludgeon the fish you are not doing it right. 

Large fish are often shot in the head with a bangstick (aka powerhead) prior to being brought into the boat to ensure the safety of those aboard.

BTW, blunt force trauma to the head is one of the accepted methods of the AVMA.


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Thanks guys for the fast responses and input. I wish he was just a little fish! Blunt force is the best way based on the AMVA Euthenasia techniques list, but I honestly don't think I have the guts to do that, I'd probably hit him and then freak out and end up with just a broken, still alive fish...so no. He's about 6 inches I think, so clove oil and ice water would have to be a no go. That's what I meant btw when I commented on the ice water method, because he is a big fish. It's ok for itty bitty fishes I guess. 
And I'm sorry I didn't realize how bad that thing about reptiles sounded when I posted it!!! Sorry guys! I wasnt trying to say you should freeze a reptile, that seems really cruel to me. I don't even have any reptiles lol.
Anyway, the garbage disposal might be the next best options with what is left, but I don't think he'd fit in my drain0_0 he's so big I'd really have to stuff the fish down there, not just a clean drop and spin deal...you know?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Oh, also, I am looking into getting a bag of java moss for the tank, because it can handle the salt, the Pleco, the low light, and will grow quickly. Not the best for my plan to eventually build up a beautiful aquascape, but I now realize that's really not ever going to happen, so it'll do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Doesn't have to be a beautiful aquascape - healthy fish are where the beauty of a tank is! That's the important part. I hope you can help them. :/

. . . no matter how you do it, euthanizing any animal is sad. 


Java moss? Ahhhh, Jaysee? Does your tank need a pruning? ~.^


----------



## cyclesnipas (Sep 8, 2013)

On the tinfoil barb- Does it look like it has dry skin? I had congo tetras that developed this when my tank went too acid for them. they basically lost there slime coating. Could this be his problem? Stress coat and melafix alleviated the issue. Maybe you can try that before euthanizing him. Might help with the tigers as well.


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

No, it looks slimy and gross, not dry. Filmy.
Yeah the java moss will probably grow everywhere and look crazy, but eh. Whatever it'll make dem fishes happi!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cyclesnipas (Sep 8, 2013)

Such a shame. Kills me when I see sick neglected fish


----------



## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

There is a right way and a wrong way to ice a fish. If you're so unsure then perhaps you should first use tank ester and clove oil . Put them to sleep . Then fill the container with ice one the fish is asleep . Leave for an hr or two to ensure it truly died while asleep. I've culled a 5 inch fish with ice.. But it was more ice then water. 


Sent from Petguide.com App


----------



## cyclesnipas (Sep 8, 2013)

This may be old school but does anyone do salt dips as disease/parasite treatment anymore? Ive never done one myself but I remember people doing it back in the 90's for severe ich and velvet issues. Could maybe help the tinfoil barb?


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Yeah my goldfish was 6 inches and fat and the ice water got it done in 5-6 seconds.


Chesh, I got rid of all my java moss. It became such an annoyance that I tore it out of all my tanks. The stuff is trying to make a comeback in the 90 though.... Can't get rid of it....


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

and that's why it'll be great lol 
About the salt, yes, it is still used for ich and velvet, an seems pretty effective, but in this case, since we don't know what it is and it's not either of those, I don't think it would be of much use
I'll look into picking up some stress coat to help with their wounds and skin
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

good luck, Squish. Keep us posted!


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Thanks! Updates soon!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Ok, were still getting worse over here. Yesterday I was looking at the tiger barbs and one was swimming lazily by the top and slowly started to turn until he flipped all the way upside down. Hen he seemed startled and had to struggle to flip over, then he went back to swimming normally, but was hiding by the heater a lot... It almost reminded me of soemone falling asleep and waking up when their head bobs...just to jive you sort of a mental image here lol. Amyway, that's obviously bad...
What that says though, is that the tiger barbs are not ok. I thought they were just beating each other up and once we got the silver barb out and more tiger barbs in they would do ok. But seeing his now I'm thinking there is even more going on in this tank than I realized before
I still don't have the tank parameters...I'm really sorry I know I can't really do anything until I can get those!!! Poor fish, soon soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Flear (Oct 5, 2012)

why wait for tank parameters ?
other than medication, ... and at this point i'm wondering, as if the fish are sick enough even medication will cause more stress to them then they can handle.

why wait for tank parameters ?


----------



## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

I agree. If it's established for a long time you are not likely going to see much to go by... A 0, Ni 0 and Na 20-40 or .20-.40... can't remember off hand which. 
If this was my tank... I would be doing 30%-50% water changes daily for a week or two. Fresh clean water is the best thing all around. That can heal fins and wounds too. I would get a bottle of Prime as it goes a long way and save your money on meds. We don't really know what they have anyway. Meds in a 75 will be expensive to keep up and I don't think you have a quarantine tank right? So... big tank... LOTS of clean water. Daily or every other. The other thing I would check is the filter. Make sure it has it's fiberfill stuff cleaned out. Other than that I would not do too much. We don't want to shock them by doing too much... and time is going to tell who makes it thru this journey. See if they have a python hose for the water changes... makes it so much easier. I don't think I would recommend bringing one from home... I'd want to scrub it before I took it and used it on another tank after. Each tank should have its own equipment anyway. Good Luck. Keep us posted.


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

I'll try really hard to get in there! It's really hard to find a time when they are available for me to come in that I can too. I'm not just putting off doing the testing, I get most of my observations while in class, but I can't do fish tank stuff during that time... My job is to learn about education of children during this time, not fishes lol. I'm trying though, ASAP I will be in there with my gizmos and gadgets, we'll get this tank cleaned up I hope! I just asked her what the water change schedule is on my way out and she said around once a month. That's probably fine for a well maintained planted tank, but not right now!! I'll try to up the water changes and find out what they are using for declorinate too.
Thanks guys, all advice is appreciated as usual
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Oh, and their filter is one of those double aquaclear ones I think. Just regular disposable inserts and stuff...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

squishylittlefishies said:


> Oh, and their filter is one of those double aquaclear ones I think. Just regular disposable inserts and stuff...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think in this case it's probably a good thing considering it's hard to get in there and work on it. Easy maintenance. I don't know how you stay focused to study and listen to the prof when you are in there. I'd be gazing at the fish all class long. :lol:


----------



## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

What about taking a cupful of water on your way out one day and testing in your car?


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Lol yeah I try to stay focused haha. And flint, you are a genius. I have no idea why that never occured to me before. If I can't stay to test I will definately take out a cup of water tomorrow!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

It's okay, we've all had derp moments. ;-) I don't know exactly how long bacteria will survive in the cup, so I'm assuming it would have to be done fairly quickly (within 15-20 minutes?) to get accurate results, but it keeps you from having to find time to stay and test.


----------



## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

You are testing for bacteria though, you are testing for compounds which will stay in the water no matter how long you wait.


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Ok  thanks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

The tinfoil barb is gone. Whew. Natural death and everything, so RIP big guy.
So, with this problem out of the way, what can we do now? I have the water to test and everything so that will be done when I get home from work today.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Well... as terrible as I feel to say it - that's a relief! Poor thing. . . 
I'm sorry - I got lost somewhere back there - who's left in the tank at this point?
Good luck with the water tests. . .


----------



## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

squishylittlefishies said:


> The tinfoil barb is gone. Whew. Natural death and everything, so RIP big guy.
> So, with this problem out of the way, what can we do now? I have the water to test and everything so that will be done when I get home from work today.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Awe Poor Baby!! SIP Mr. Tinfoil. 
How were the Tiger Barbs looking today? You said they kind of looked `bleeding`last week. Any better looking?


----------



## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

Always so sad when a fish dies, but with the condition this guy was in, its maybe for the best. Also his departure will lower the bioload for the others.
I know its probaly a huge hassle in the seting your in, but i would reccommend frequent water changes till the fish look healthy and test readings are 0,0,0.
Oh, and try to not dispose of old filterpads unless they are falling apart, just rinse. Again, I know its probaly terribly inconvienient in that setting.
Good luck!


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Nitrate 20
Ammonia, above0.5, less than 1
Nitrite, 0
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

That's not nearly as bad as it could be, thank goodness they've been doing water changes!


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Yeah! I was suprised that it seems pretty good! Almost makes thing harder though because that means the problem is something else...:/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

I've just read this whole thread and had suspected high nitrates may be contributing to thr decline in health but 20 is not bad at all. I think with the skin condition the fish have (had) that it may be some kind of parasite. An external parasite treatment along with regular water changes may help. I hope you get the tsnk straightened out. By the way, that has got to be the most deformed Parrot fish I've ever seen. Poor guy!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

I know, right? He's really strange looking... I think also because he has his tail fin clamped like that it makes his shape look even more awkward. Thanks for joining the thread! I hope we will get somewhere soon!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Well... there *IS* a reading for ammonia, so that's no good - something is off there, for sure. 
I'm thinking that should be easy enough to clean up with a little bit of attention paid. 
Could be an illness was introduced by their last round of short-lived new additions. . . 
but I think there may also be an issue with incompatible stocking, too?

Now we have all the pieces of the puzzle. . . time to figure out what comes next!
Would you mind refreshing me as to who is currently living in the tank (to the best of your knowledge), and what size it is?


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

75 gallons, 
One parrotfish
Three tiger barbs, yes still red and splotchy,
One pleco(common type I think) 
That's it. 
I have one piece of driftwood for the Pleco and a pathetic sprig on anacharis. I'm looking into getting a whole bunch of java moss from somewhere.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

I believe it was a 75 gallon with the parrot fish, 5 tiger barbs and a pleco (need a pic to id this guy). But the OP should confirm. not too terrible on incompatibility.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

I'll take some pics of the barbs and Pleco so y'all can see what's happening..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

The terrible skin condition of the fish still have me suspecting it may be parasitic. Something is irritating their scales and possibly causing bacterial infection. That's just my hunch.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

So, how could we confirm/treat this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

Really hard to diagnose exactly what it is with fish. Best I can suggest is to do some research. One possibility is skin flukes. But it could be any number of things. Google it and compare the symptoms with what you see.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

After it all settles down and cycling/disease is handled, tiger barbs would be fun for the kids to get to watch.


----------



## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

I belive the people caring for this tank are feeding the fish shrimp from the grocery store. This might be introducing all types of bad bacteria and such into the tank. Can't know for sure, but it migjt have somthing to do with the fishes skin/ scale problems. 
Big problems, but when its solved it will be a big reward for you. Your doing a great thing by helping these fish, thank you... and as always, good luck!


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

I suppose this could be a problem since it is raw fish. I will find out what company it cones from. They also feed chiclid pellets sometimes I think
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

If the shrimp are PINK then they are cooked already. "Ready to serve".


----------



## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

I feed my fish market shrimp all the time. Never had a problem with it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

A lot of people feed grocery store shrimp to larger fish though. Unless it's left to rot I don't see how it would be bad? I would stick to just dry foods though. As someone who feeds fresh food to fish I must say it is incredibly messy and could cause problems if you aren't careful.

Try to get a bottle of Prime to deal with the ammonia problem and water changes should work.

I don't know how involved you want to get with this, but I would probably just put in more caves for the parrot fish (everything but that barrel look too small for him). 
Maybe some really tall fake plants until real ones can grow in. I think reducing the stress levels of the fish will help them heal quickly. 

After things are better, I think the current inhabitants plus more tiger barbs would work okay in the tank. . .


----------



## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

Great post Olympia. I totally agree on everything!! Cover will be less stressful for everyone. Even a coffee mug if the Parrotfish would fit... or a Clay pot... anything on it's side to create a sense of cover... and a small bottle of Prime with neutralize the Ammonia... and ONE cap does 50 Gallons. A small bottle will work fine for now!!


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Sounds good! I have seen lots of chiclid tanks with the big clay pots. The problem is that he seems to hang out at the very top back corner all the time where there is no cover at all. He doesn't ever go down towards the bottom to hide, so I don't know if he would take advantage of hiding places I provide near the ground. Better to try than not though!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Oh also, do I have to tie the java moss onto stuff or can I just toss in some clumps. I'm not even going to worry about where it grows, but will it attach itself to *something* on its own?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Flear (Oct 5, 2012)

i'm no expert on java moss, ... i put some in the tank, my tank has little water flow (it's far from still - just not enough water flow to blow the java moss around) ... given time i'm sure it will attach where it sits.

from this i would guess those people that do tie i down are going for specific placement to ensure it grows right where they want it, ... then in time it will grow and take hold and being tied down is no longer needed, just not necessarily something that is easy to remove the string or whatever was used (from pictures i remember it's fishing line) ... but it looks like tying it down is to get it started.

the java moss in my tank sank and with the low flow didn't move around any, ... it's grown a fair amount, but to think it might have anchored itself, i haven't tested, but i think i would be impatient to move it around now, ...

reminds me, it's sitting in the dark side of the tank, if i want it to grow faster i should move it to where there's more light.


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

_Posted via Mobile Device_
Ok, some more info...
They are feeding canned baby shrimp from the grocery store, not deli shrimp.
I talked about water changes and we should be able to start doing them weekly.
Tiger barbs are looking even worse still, starting to sort of drift around here is a picture of them. 
Chiclid is not looking much better either. 
The moss will go in soon I hope! 
And a theoretical question, *if* it was parasites or whatever, and the remaining four fish died, what safety precautions would we need to take to make sure that when we restock the tank it will not be contaminated?
Sorry that the pictures are so bad, all the fish were sitting by the back wall(that's a wallpaper in the background btw) so I couldn't get a good picture really. They are a collage because I can only submit one picture at a time haha....


----------



## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

If there are no fish in the tank parasites will die out in 2-3 weeks if you keep the heater turned up to 82-88° F.
There should be no bacteria in canned shrimp, but I would worry about preservatives/additives. I could be completly wrong.
Tiger barb looks terrible... so sad to see fish in bad shape...


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

That's what I was thinking...
Thanks
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

I think, if we get the chance to start over brand new, I will encourage them towards a cool water wcmm and zebra danio tank. Those are pretty hardy
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

I think tiger barbs would be more colorful and fun to watch in the tank, personally.


----------



## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

How are the fish? I asked a disease savvy friend and she said hemorrhagic septecima, which is blood poisoning. :/ Doesn't sound very pretty does it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Still the same... I'll read up about that disease...sounds pretty tough! Good to hear someone has an idea what it might be though!
She doesn't reLly want tiger barbs any more. I agree they are fun, but she likes big schools of stuff, and she wants to be able to mix species.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

I agree on her he diagnosis. I just pulled up some pictures and that is definitely it. I'll post a seperate thread on he disease and see what comes up. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Guys, it looks like there is hope for the tank still! Yay
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Hmm, what is the update?


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

So, I just looked at the tank, and whatever they have seems to be getting better! She has been doing way more water changes, and the water looks prestige, and the fish actually look sort of...happy...? 
So, I ink we will dose for the illness still and it looks like it will be ok!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Flear (Oct 5, 2012)

that's great to hear 
i'm very happy to hear that with water changes they're doing better.
i've got even more hope of everything working out for them 

thank you squishylittlefishies for your efforts and information to them, ... and i'm way over here


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

So, here's what's happening.the tank is looking lots better, as are the fish, but they still appear quite stressed. I told her that she should treat the tank with tetracycline anyway to get rid of the rest of the bacteria that was infecting the tank, to be sure it is safe before adding anything new or relaxing the wc schedule. I get the feeling that they really don't want to treat though, because the tank looks so nice right now, they believe it's all fixed and the problem is gone. So, what do you guys think? Can it go away completely on its own and cure itself?? To treat, or not to treat? It will only cost around 14 dollars btw.
Also, I am still concerned that we may not have seen the end of the problems yet in this tank, since the stocking is still questionable, and we have no solid answer as to what the underlying problem and influence in all this was...?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## squishylittlefishies (Sep 12, 2012)

Bump?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

The main thing this tank needs is TIME. Time and fresh water do wonders, and will continue to do so. If this were my tank I would carry on for another month before I make any "new fish additions". AT LEAST another 2 weeks minimum but I strongly suggest a month. And then it be species that increase the numbers of what you have already. A school of Tiger Barbs would be cool in a 75!!


----------



## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

I agree with Seahorse! Sorry to be behind with checking in. . . 
I don't have enough experience to help you out much, anyway T___T

As a rule, I try not to break out the chemicals until it seems very, very necessary. . . if the visually affected fish are gone, and you're only seeing stress . . . I would be more inclined to leave things alone and keep up with the frequent water changes until/unless they begin to worsen again. There are many others who take the opposite approach. I'm a fish-keeping hippy. 

I know a bit about medication - but how it applies to humans. . . obviously fish are a_ completely_ different animal in every way - so_ definitely _take this with a grain of salt (or a whole box!), and do more research before taking my input (ever!).
One of the effects that Tetracycline has on humans is to lower the white blood cell count, which can lead to anemia. Because of this, I'd definitely look into the effects on an animal that appears 'bloody,' as it *may* harm, rather than help. It also causes appetite lost and stomach cramping. . .assuming that the same reactions would apply to a fish in the first place! 

I'm fairly sure that Tetracycline would have some negative effect on the bacteria in the tank, though - so I'd be even more hesitant to use it in an aquarium kept outside of my home. I had a tough time when medicating the kindergarten tank, because it was difficult to get to for additional testing/water changes. Should a cycling situation happen in there, things could get worse quickly. . .

That having been said, sometimes a risk is worth taking. . . 
I don't know enough about the system, the fish, the illness, or the meds to give anything above a guess. . .

What I DO know (and about the only thing that I'm comfortable with putting down here) is that I have found time and clean water to be _magic_ to fish. 

If the animals are looking better, _I _would be inclined to leave things how they are for now, and treat the entire tank like a QT tank. 
I would definitely leave stocking alone for at least a month after the last symptoms go before adding anything new. Should a new arrival bring any additional illness into the system, the already-stressed fish will be much more likely to become ill, and trying to treat more than one mystery illness at a time is a nightmare - especially outside of the home.

I hope something in here helped! Keep up the good work, I'm glad things are seeming a bit better now.


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

seahorse said:


> the main thing this tank needs is time. Time and fresh water do wonders, and will continue to do so. If this were my tank i would carry on for another month before i make any "new fish additions". At least another 2 weeks minimum but i strongly suggest a month. And then it be species that increase the numbers of what you have already. A school of tiger barbs would be cool in a 75!!



100%


----------

