# salinity in FW tank



## weaselnoze (Nov 30, 2006)

my aquarium salt bottle says 1 tablespoon per 10 gal. i've been confused with the whole water change and adding salt deal. so here is what i've figured out. i need to know if my method for adding salt is right. i start out with 1 table spoon in my 10 gal. thats 100% of the dosage. i did a 30% WC. now the concentration is 70%. then i did another 25% water change. so (.25) x (.7) = (.175). (.7)-(.175)=(.525)= 52.5% of my original dosage. then i did another 25% WC. so (.525)x(.25)=(.131). (.525)-(.131)=(.394)= 39.4% of my original dosage. then i did ANOTHER 25% WC. this is getting old.. so (.394)x(.25)=(.099). (.394)-(.099)=(.295)= 29.5% of my original dosage. so im left with 29.5% of the original 1 tablespoon of salt added to the tank. that means i need to add roughly 70% of a tablespoon of salt. 

first off, is this method correct in determining the amount of salt i need? keep in mind i added no salt after all these water changes. i would now like to replace the salt i took. 

secondly, am i a complete moron for wasting all that time figuring this out? how do you guys keep track of your salt content??? after a while of not being exact, the salt content must get screwed up eventually resulting in buying an expensive salinity test kit.


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## jones57742 (Oct 31, 2006)

weaselnoze:

You have (perhaps unknowingly) just stepped foot into an ongoing [raging?] debate in the hobby.

1) Many hobbyists believe that a minimal doseage of salt wil help with pathogen control.

2) The remaider (who have an opinion) say that 1) above is BS and that salt should only be used for ich "fighting".

While I am mostly in the 1) camp IMHO your "maintenance concentration" of 1Tblspn/10G is "way to much".

When I reentered the hobby after 35 years (about 8 months ago) I maintained a 1Tblspn/20G "maintenance concentration".

After reading additional literature and reviewing various threads I ceased this practice.

Within a month several guppies had died and I was "fighting ich" on my large black angel.

My current protocol is to at approximate monthly intervals dose with 1Tblspn/20G and maintain the concentration for several days.

The concentration is then decreased via ordinary WC's.

I hope this post helps as it is the "best of my 'thinkin'" concerning this issue.

TR


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

Weasel, I can't say how much I am impressed by your strong will to research a lot.:thumbsup: Definitely impressive.:welldone:

Good luck on this one.


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## weaselnoze (Nov 30, 2006)

haha thanks :lol:. i've had countless kinds of animals growing up. many of them being fish of all sorts. i had taken a break from all that when i hit my teenage years (girls were more important) however i recently jumped back into the world of aquariums. i now understand the importance of doing it the right way so im trying my HARDEST to do so. i didnt realize it was gonna cost me so much money lol!

ok so back on topic here. 1 tblspn/ 10 gal is what the bottle recommends. you think i should disregard? my gobies wouldnt like that a whole lot however i have other fish too.


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## JouteiMike (Oct 7, 2006)

I could go on and on about the pros and cons of using salt. 

Personally, I don't use salt on my freshwater tank.

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article22.html
I think this article is a great read about salt.


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## jones57742 (Oct 31, 2006)

weaselnoze said:


> first off, is this method correct in determining the amount of salt i need?
> 
> secondly, am i a complete moron for wasting all that time figuring this out? how do you guys keep track of your salt content???


WN:

*Please excuse me - In a previous post I was addressing an issue about which you were not asking!*

I believe so.
A sample table is set forth at the end of this post.

I hope not as your method is my method also.

Water ~ Remaining
Change ~ Concentration
25% ~ 75.00%
25% ~ 56.25%
25% ~ 42.19%
25% ~ 31.64%
25% ~ 23.73%
30% ~ 16.61%
40% ~ 9.97%
50% ~ 4.98%


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## weaselnoze (Nov 30, 2006)

waaaaaaaaa ok its midnight and im starting to not be able to read or write the english language. i'm gonna take a snoozer and catch some ZZZZs. be back tomorrow evening.


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## crazie.eddie (Sep 1, 2006)

Why not make things simple and just add the salt for the amount of water removed? For example, if you have a 10 gallon tank and removed 2 gallons, why not add the salt for 2 gallons.

Just make sure you do not add salt directly into the tank. Just dissolve the salt in water first, then slowly pour the solution in your tank over along period of time.


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## weaselnoze (Nov 30, 2006)

my neons and tiger barbs have been lookin better and better everyday. could this be because of the lack of salt? could salt make them act mopy?


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## crazie.eddie (Sep 1, 2006)

Salt is supposed to promote the slime coat in fish.

After some research, I added salt in my tanks for over a year. I noticed no difference in health or activity with the salt. I actually overdosed my tank with salt, which included angelfish, clownloaches, dwarf gouramis, L-18 plecos, neon tetras. When I did a WC on my 55 gallon, I would remove about 20 gallons of water, I would add salt for 55 gallons. I would do this at every WC, until I noticed that I was adding too much salt. As I mentioned, I noticed no difference in health or activity even with the over dosed salt.

I eventually stopped, since the salt was getting rather expensive to be continuously used.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

As was pointed out, the split in the hobby is mostly a "yes or no" issue, however, I fall into that "inbetween category". Let me explain:
Some fish are extremely sensitive to salt, such as loaches, neons, cardinals, and a lot of others. On the other hand, fish such as mollys, guppys, platys, and many others, do better with salt added. Mollys like a lot of salt. Why are you letting people dictate to you about salt based on their "opinions" when you can simply listen to the fish? Whether you add salt or not should depend more on what is in your tank than on what people think about it. How much salt to add should come from that same information. What kind of fish do you have? I saw you mentioned neons? Neons is a no no. They will do much better and stay much healthier without any salt at all. Give me a list, maybe I can help you sort it out... it may come down to a matter of which is the better of 2 evils... who can tolerate what better than the rest.
I always let me fish decide, and I have yet to have problems either way. After all, isn't the real issue about making THEM comfortable? This is THEIR envioronment, after all.


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

bettababy said:


> As was pointed out, the split in the hobby is mostly a "yes or no" issue, however, I fall into that "inbetween category". Let me explain:
> Some fish are extremely sensitive to salt, such as loaches, neons, cardinals, and a lot of others. On the other hand, fish such as mollys, guppys, platys, and many others, do better with salt added. Mollys like a lot of salt. Why are you letting people dictate to you about salt based on their "opinions" when you can simply listen to the fish? Whether you add salt or not should depend more on what is in your tank than on what people think about it. How much salt to add should come from that same information. What kind of fish do you have? I saw you mentioned neons? Neons is a no no. They will do much better and stay much healthier without any salt at all. Give me a list, maybe I can help you sort it out... it may come down to a matter of which is the better of 2 evils... who can tolerate what better than the rest.
> I always let me fish decide, and I have yet to have problems either way. After all, isn't the real issue about making THEM comfortable? This is THEIR envioronment, after all.


Good explanation, Dawn. I, myself, have been wondering why put salt especially when you have neons. Fish that thrive well in soft water particularly those from Amazon will not easily tolerate salt long-term. As for angelfish, scalares can simply tolerate them as they have long been bred in captivity thus they are able to adjust well on the wide ranges of water conditions.
Personally, I'd use salt only on emergencies but you should also be aware of what fish you are treating as Dawn mentioned previously.:wink2:


weaselnoze said:


> my neons and tiger barbs have been lookin better and better everyday. could this be because of the lack of salt? could salt make them act mopy?


Neons simply cannot tolerate the salt as mentioned before. Leave your tank without salt. Adding salt in a tank with soft water natives is just asking for troubles.
The question often would be why use salt when your fish are fine in their present environment.:dunno:


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## crazie.eddie (Sep 1, 2006)

Looks like and I posted about the same time.

I would have to assume that normal bodies of water do contain some salt. As far as how much, not sure. 

I've read allot of facts about loaches beubg sensitive to salt, but strangely enough, one of the recommendations for battling ich is using salt. I had one loach with some signs of ich and I was worried about the rest of my fish getting it. I did research and was thinking of using meds, but I know the great risk it is to the other fish. I heard about salt being commonly used for ich, but I also read that salt was bad for loaches. I was caught in a dilemna. On the loach forums, salt was actually advised to battle against ich, so I tried it. My loach was cured and no fish showed signs of ich. I also read the benifits of using salt in fish, so I kept using it.

As I mentioned before, I realized several months later that I was overdosing the salt. Strangly, the fish in the tank were a few of the ones that were sensitive to salt (dwarf gourami, neon tetras, loaches, plecos, etc.) and all the ones I decided to keep are still alive, with the exception of my one angel, which I'm trying to cure for swim bladder problems.

As I'm sure that many of you who have used salt or may have seen in the forums, the common thing people do with aquarium salt is to just dump it into the tank. There were no expicit instructions as how to apply it. So my assumption is, when fish see something fall in the water, they quickly assume it's food. So some of these fish may have tried eating the salt crystals.

Loaches, plecos, etc. are all bottom dwellers. So if the bottom dwelling fish came in contact with the undissolved salt crystals, the fish would have been hurt from the strong concentration of salt.

Basically, that is my theory.

Would I use aquarium salt? Of course! I still keep a large container of aquarium salt just in case.

Would I use aquarium salt on a regular basis? I prefer not to, since it would get kind of expensive having to buy it all the time. I want my hobby to be a hobby and not a science project. Besides, my fishes seem happy with or without it.


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## weaselnoze (Nov 30, 2006)

bettababy said:


> What kind of fish do you have? I saw you mentioned neons? Neons is a no no. They will do much better and stay much healthier without any salt at all. Give me a list, maybe I can help you sort it out... it may come down to a matter of which is the better of 2 evils... who can tolerate what better than the rest.


i have neons (which you say hate salt) tiger barbs (idk what preference) 2 bumblebees (love salt, actually brackish) and a hillstream loach (also which you say hates salt.) oh and a dwarf frog (salt or no salt?)



Blue said:


> The question often would be why use salt when your fish are fine in their present environment.:dunno:[/color]


well i see your point but isnt that a rather naive way of looking at it? just because it appears to be ok doesnt mean there isnt any underlying issues. maybe i misunderstood you.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Let me try to rephrase this, maybe it will make more sense.
Cough medicine is used to treat a cough. If you take it to treat the cough, do you then continue to take it every day to prevent the cough from coming back? If you don't have a cough, are you going take it just so you don't get a cough? Is the same kind of cough medicine safe for all people? We're all people.... right? So what would the problem be? 
Does this make more sense?
Another way... asprin is another good example.... the Dr's say it's good to take to prevent a heart attack, but does that mean everyone should or does take it regularly to prevent a heart attack? Why? Why not?
You're dealing with salt in much the same way when putting it into a freswater aquarium. Bumble bees are brackish, so they don't fit into this category because their natural environment is brackish.
When dealing with aquarium salt you are dealing with sodium chloride. In a natural freshwater river or lake, you have some "salts" but not in the form of sodium chloride. There's a big difference, and the animals we're talking about, if exposed long term to sodium chloride, especially in high concentrations (such as 1 tbsp/10 gallons), it will have negative effects on their central nervous system. Then we are talking about permanent damage and shorter life span....
Once again, I will say, to use salt or not depends on the animals in the aquarium.
My husband and I are currently researching the "salt" issue, so I'll post more when I can better explain our findings. We're checking into the salt content of natural waterways in different parts of the world.


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## JouteiMike (Oct 7, 2006)

I suggest you all read that article I posted. It expresses my views towards the use of salt in the aquarium.


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

bettababy said:


> Let me try to rephrase this, maybe it will make more sense.
> Cough medicine is used to treat a cough. If you take it to treat the cough, do you then continue to take it every day to prevent the cough from coming back? If you don't have a cough, are you going take it just so you don't get a cough? Is the same kind of cough medicine safe for all people? We're all people.... right? So what would the problem be?
> Does this make more sense?
> Another way... asprin is another good example.... the Dr's say it's good to take to prevent a heart attack, but does that mean everyone should or does take it regularly to prevent a heart attack? Why? Why not?
> ...











In fact, Dawn's statement makes sense.:wink2: Don't fix what is not broken. May not be fix but I would not try it as your fish are living in the conditions that they generally prefer. Use salt only for emergency purposes.


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## jones57742 (Oct 31, 2006)

jones57742 said:


> ... You have (perhaps unknowingly) just stepped foot into an ongoing [raging?] debate in the hobby. ...


"Ah ha, Ah ha" I was correct: we are up to Page 2 of this issue!




bettababy said:


> Let me try to rephrase this, maybe it will make more sense.
> Cough medicine is used to treat a cough. If you take it to treat the cough, do you then continue to take it every day to prevent the cough from coming back?


No!
BUT
every "several months" when Chris is here and is "cleaning the house" she does spray Lysol around the house and in the trash cans!




jones57742 said:


> ...
> When I reentered the hobby after 35 years (about 8 months ago) I maintained a 1Tblspn/20G "maintenance concentration".
> 
> After reading additional literature and reviewing various threads I ceased this practice.
> ...



I view this as a "Lysol operation".

TR


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

jones57742 said:


> "Ah ha, Ah ha" I was correct: we are up to Page 2 of this issue!


So much for your prediction.:mrgreen: Well, generally debates would reach 2 pages or more.:dunno: One page only means issue is finished without others posting their opinions on the matter.:mrgreen:


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## crazie.eddie (Sep 1, 2006)

I agree. Never use meds in a fish tank when it's not required. But you can still use salt if you like. Salt is not a med, it's a mineral. All living things need more or less of certain minerals.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Another point to make: How many of these freshwater fish we're speaking of are captive bred? What are the conditions that they are being bred in and raised in?
As for the "Lysol Operation"... we're not talking about something that will have an effect on the central nervous system if we're exposed to it. If you want to view it that way... then do it and take into account that your body may have an allergic reaction to the Lysol... would she be spraying it once/month then? Sodium Chloride, in animals that have an extremely low tolerance to it, can cause health problems and physical damage to their nervous system. Almost comparable to feeding someone food laced with rat poison... it won't kill them initially, though they may show some mild symptoms from time to time. In small doses, all it would do is make them feel sick... but eventually the body gives out... 
Now, that said... let's get back to "salt". What kind of salt are we talking about? How many of us realize that sodium chloride is only one form, and how many of us know what is in our aquarium salt? My husband and I have found a good online resource for comparing freshwater to seawater. It can be found here: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seawater
Note the different kinds of salts, and the difference in concentrations in freshwater vs saltwater. The problem isn't "salinity" in freshwater, it's with the sodium chloride content in aquarium salt. After reading that article, read the contents listed on a bag of aquarium salt, or call one of the manufacturers of aquarium salt or sea salt mixes, and ask them for a content breakdown of the salt product. There are products such as RO Right by Kent Marine, intended to replace the natural "salts/elements" found in freshwater. There are other products like Freshwater Essentials, Cichlid Essentials, etc etc. The contents on these will replace more of the "good salts" for freshwater fishes than will aquarium salt. The biggest difference in those products and aquarium salt is the lower percentage of sodium chloride. 
If we are doing frequent water changes with tap water, most of these trace elements or "salts" are replenished within our aquarium without the need for "artificial means" to put them there. So... once again, I will stand on "it depends on what fish you're keeping".


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

Another








So much for debates.








And as long as this continues to become an issue, beginners will be confused by this.:blink: And yes, I still wouldn't add salt unless the fish really needs it(brackish water condition or illnesses). But then, we're still entitled to different opinions and others may think salt is necessary even if the fish itself is already satisfied with the current surroundings.


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## JouteiMike (Oct 7, 2006)

Just for reference...

The composition of marine salt is:

Element ppm

* Chloride, Cl 19,500
* Sodium, Na 10,770
* Magnesium, Mg 1,290
* Sulphur, S 905
* Calcium, Ca 412
* Potassium, K 380
* Bromine, Br 67
* Carbon, C 28
* Nitrogen, N 11.5
* Strontium, Sr 8
* Oxygen, O 6
* Boron, B 4.4
* Silicon, Si 2
* Fluorine, F 1.3
* Argon, Ar 0.43
* Lithium, Li 0.18
* Rubidium, Rb 0.12
* Phosphorus, P 0.06
* Iodine, I 0.06
* Barium, Ba 0.02
* Molybdenium, Mo 0.01
* Arsenic, As 0.0037
* Uranium, U 0.0032
* Vanadium, V 0.0025
* Titanium, Ti 0.001
* Zinc, Zn 0.0005
* Nickel, Ni 0.00048
* Aluminium, Al 0.0004
* Cesium, Cs 0.0004
* Chromium, Cr 0.0003
* Antimony, Sb 0.00024
* Krypton, Kr 0.0002
* Selenium, Se 0.0002
* Neon, Ne 0.00012
* Manganese, Mn 0.0001
* Cadmium, Cd 0.0001
* Copper, Cu 0.0001
* Tungsten, W 0.0001
* Iron, Fe 0.000055
* Xenon, Xe 0.00005
* Zirconium, Zr 0.00003
* Bismuth, Bi 0.00002
* Niobium, Nb 0.00001
* Thallium, Tl 0.00001
* Thorium, Th 0.00001
* Hafnium, Hf 7 x 10-6
* Helium, He 6.8 x 10-6
* Beryllium, Be 5.6 x 10-6
* Germanium, Ge 5 x 10-6
* Gold, Au 4 x 10-6
* Rhenium, Re 4 x 10-6
* Cobalt, Co 3 x 10-6
* Lanthanum, La 3 x 10-6
* Neodymium, Nd 3 x 10-6
* Lead, Pb 2 x 10-6
* Silver, Ag 2 x 10-6
* Tantalum, Ta 2 x 10-6
* Gallium, Ga 2 x 10-6
* Yttrium, Y 1.3 x 10-6
* Mercury, Hg 1 x 10-6
* Cerium, Ce 1 x 10-6
* Dysprosium, Dy 9 x 10-7
* Erbium, Er 8 x 10-7
* Ytterbium, Yb 8 x 10-7
* Gadolinium, Gd 7 x 10-7
* Praseodymium, Pr 6 x 10-7
* Scandium, Sc 6 x 10-7
* Tin, Sn 6 x 10-7
* Holmium, Ho 2 x 10-7
* Lutetium, Lu 2 x 10-7
* Thulium, Tm 2 x 10-7
* Indium, In 1 x 10-7
* Trebium, Tb 1 x 10-7
* Palladium, Pd 5 x 10-8
* Samarium, Sm 5 x 10-8
* Tellurium, Te 1 x 10-8
* Europium, Eu 1 x 10-8
* Radium, Ra 7 x 10-11
* Protactinium, Pa 5 x 10-11
* Radon, Rn 6 x 10-16 

Aquarium salt is simply sodium and chloride, nothing else. I have a feeling there are lots of beginners that set up brackish aquariums and use aquarium salt, as opposed to marine salt.

I agree it does in a way depend on what fish you are keeping, like livebearers, but you still must remember that aquarium salt is nothing more than sodium chloride, period. To replicate the natural environment you need calcium, magnesium, potassium, boron and silicate salts, which are present in marine salt.

The use to treat bacterial pathogens should be the main use of salt. Using it on a constant basis always made little sense to me.


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

:shock2: Excellent post, Mike.:wink2: I'll consider linking this thread to the stickied Freshwater Informations.
Nice thread.
:yourock:


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## JouteiMike (Oct 7, 2006)

Another point I agree with was that tap water does contain an adequate amount of trace elements, like sodium and chloride. Your fish should be able to adjust to the moderately hard and alkaline tap water fine, even fish like tetras, rasboras, corys, and angels that are from soft, acidic water. 

Seems like adding MORE salt only makes them have a more difficult time acclimating to the conditions.


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## caferacermike (Oct 3, 2006)

There have been several great answers. I also am in the no salt boat. I keep slat water tanks and fresh water tanks. I've never felt the need to grab a big ol cup of Seachem reef salt to add to my pleco tank. I agree fully that your tap water contains almost a trace of every element or mineral needed to raise fish. A second good point has been brought up. How many of you thought the topic was about table salt? 

My first thought when reading the "dilemma" was not about your ratio but the fact that you keep brackish fish with salt free fish and ask how to walk the fence. You just shouldn't do it. Bracksih should be kept in brackish and fresh in fresh. Same goes for African cichlid keepers. To many of them think plain old sand and tap water will do the trick. Nothing could be further from the truth. Those same people like to mix their Africans with fish from all over the world and call it a "community tank". Sorry no such thing. One or more of those species will never live to their fullest. Being compromised in some way or another. As Dawn pointed out, added salt will mess with certain fishes nervous system. Mixing fish of the wrong PH or salinity levels will cause some fish to just eek out a living. They will fail to reproduce. They will fail to grow. They will fail to show great colors. These fish often die in about a year. You know how many people at work tell me about their fish when they find out I have tanks? They go on and on about their 20g tank on the counter. It has neons, tetras, goldfish, a "shark", a frog, possibly a turtle and all kinds of other stuff. Then they tell me about hte fish that died last night. And about the one that died last week. Also they had to replace the goldfish that died 2 months back before their daughter realized it was dead. They generally say things like, "it was almost a year old. It lived a long time". Then comes my favorite question, "so how long do fish live?" Yeah many live longer than 5 years.

Myself I am completely against medicating and adding things like salt, "just to be safe". Just to be safe I do a lot of water changes instead.


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## pleco_cory_fan (Oct 2, 2006)

look all i could say in this i dotn add salt but ive got some delicate south americans. I would agree that its loaction location location but the generals info is that gobies and livebeares have a much greater tolerance


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## jones57742 (Oct 31, 2006)

Folks:

In order to implement "clarity here" when I have referred to salt such reference has been to sodium salt (NaCl).

IMHO the 2nd most commonly available form of salt is potassium salt (KCl) [as I am fairly certain most of you "oil field hands" out ther will recognize].

The photograph is of the sodium salt which I use.

(I believe that this salt may just be "rock salt" but packed smaller and sold at a higher price.
BUT
I use it because I believe that it may be mined from a pit (or portion thereof) which contains minimal impurities.)

In generally chemistry salt is a molecule formed by the elements in Column 1A and Column 7B in the Periodic Table. 

Ref
http://images.google.com/imgres?img...elements&start=2&sa=X&oi=images&ct=image&cd=2

TR


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Knowing what I do about salt and fish, I wouldn't be putting that stuff into my aquariums or wasting my money on it. As was already stated, it's the sodium chloride that has the negative effect on fish... and that's generally what you're adding to your tank. I agree with using marine salts for brackish water fish due to the number of different salts that need to be found in the water for the fish to function normally. Simply adding sodium chloride seems to me to only be adding an early death for the fish. Long term, it's not healthy.


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