# Bear may be getting salty again



## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

so everything is in the planning stages at this time but it looks good to get back into salt in the next few months... i thought it would be a good idea to have a place to get out my thoughts and work out details... 

gear i have right now

150W heater
2 - 2bulb T5 HO lights with 10k and true blue actinics in each
multiple pumps (may need others have not decided if i want low or high flow yet)

gear i am getting in the short term

40 breeder to convert into an AIO or a Biocube 29 (trade pending)
considering a HOT skimmer (i hesitate due to risk of leaking) may go with internal if i can find strong and small (must be AIO tank)
cover for the tank to accommodate the fact i have cats and a dog who love to try and go fishing when they can.. 

in time.......
1/2"-3/4" of live sand no more!!
40 ish pounds of dry rock and 10 ish of live (long cycle = more time to research potential stocking


once cycled ...

nice mix of snails 
????? trying to stay away from crabs this time around but i really do like them so not completely off the list yet...


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

ive thought about an AIO tank when setting up my newest one. a cool idea IMO would be to add a false wall to the 40 cutting the tank in half making your display 18'' x 18'' and viewing the tank from the side panal of glass. it would stick out 3 feet from a wall though but your sump section would be awesome AND allow room for a full on in tank skimmer. 
ofcourse its just a thought, what this thread is for right?

and look into porcelain crabs.


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

all thoughts welcome my man!! i am considering all options LOOOOOOOOONG before i start to build..


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

i just love cube tanks, ofcourse everyone has their thing... but i would love to see a cube tank. lol


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

really considering having it sit "normal" with the sectioned of portion a box on the right side picture it like a overflow box that goes from the mid point to the right of the tank and all the rest of the tank is available to play with...


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

bearwithfish said:


> really considering having it sit "normal" with the sectioned of portion a box on the right side picture it like a overflow box that goes from the mid point to the right of the tank and all the rest of the tank is available to play with...


i gotcha but this only allows the hang on skimmer... more tank room though. maybe a 7''x7'' ( or similiar ) to fit a skimmer..

hang on im drawing a picture. ;-)


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

this shows the top down of a 40 breeder. the red X for intank skimmer and the red arrows showing water flow back to tank. middle section could be refugium, and third return pump/heater(s) which both could possible be more narrow compared to the first section for skimmer, depending construction.

just another idea.


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

ohh i like that i will keep this in mind


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

ok with your idea blended with min lets look at a few flaws and try to work them out shall we? 

1st i want to move the skimmer "box" to the middle of the tank now for the skimmer i am looking at i need 8x10" box this would be the over flow into the chamber and the skimmer.. next up would be a narrower section from the box to the right 5" from front to back and ~10" from box to right side of tank. in this 5" area would be the heater, bubble trap and return pump(s).... 

issue with both designs - skimmer would inhibit a cover
lights using legs would also inhibit cover use

potential solutions? 
(yes this must be an AIO no sump options .... )


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

here is my basic plan.. now still dealing with the accommodation of a skimmer... in tank if possible to accommodate space and reduce the risk of leaks...


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

bearwithfish said:


> issue with both designs - skimmer would inhibit a cover
> lights using legs would also inhibit cover use
> 
> potential solutions?
> (yes this must be an AIO no sump options .... )



its going to require a canopy to keep the lights in because even the lights would prob. get in the way on an intank skimmer. 

i also suggested my way because by the time to water got skimmed, went thru the fuge, then back to the tank there shouldnt be much of any microbubbles. im not fully sure though and a bubble trap may actually still be needed.


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

dont get me wrong i like your idea and i am trying to blend the two basic concepts into one that works for what i am looking for... as for the bubble trap i thought it was implied  ... i would have one just for the fact it would help to keep track of the water level.. 

a canopy huh? hmmm i had not really given that much thought.. i would have to build in fans if i did one though as my lights dont have one built in.... i found a cool fan buld out of computer fans that costs like $4 so that should not be an issue... 

the thoughts continue... 

oh hey what about a backpack style skimmer but used in tank? it narrow enough to sit along the back and still be out of the way....


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

bearwithfish said:


> dont get me wrong i like your idea and i am trying to blend the two basic concepts into one that works for what i am looking for... as for the bubble trap i thought it was implied  ... i would have one just for the fact it would help to keep track of the water level..
> 
> a canopy huh? hmmm i had not really given that much thought.. i would have to build in fans if i did one though as my lights dont have one built in.... i found a cool fan buld out of computer fans that costs like $4 so that should not be an issue...
> 
> ...


the computer fans would work, have them blow air in, not out to get the most out of their life. ive also used a table fan on tanks and found them more effective. if you see my build i just left the back side of my canopy open ( with plastic mesh ) for air flow. i dont have my actual lights in yet so im going to add a fan only if and when needed. ( the good thing is i have the option if needed to blow the fan over my lights/top surface of water, which is more effective or fan the sump surface of water, which is out of the way. ) 

the hang on skimmer but hung on to be in the tank, in one of those compartments would be cool. just read online reviews about these skimmers before purchase. 

not saying you have to go with any of my ideas, just trying to get your head thinking. ;-)


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

and that is why i respect your opinions.... not to mention that looking at an issue from as many angles as possible creates the best possible outcome..


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## kaxt (Nov 10, 2010)

I have been thinking about doing the same thing. A couple of months ago I bought a 40g breeder and started to build a stand that would hold a 20L for a sump. I finished building the stand and decided that I wanted to have more storage room in the stand than the sump was going to allow so I started to think about AIO.

I drew this a while ago, it's pretty similar to teh drawings already posted, but I figured I'd share. The compartment for the skimmer will be 8 x 5 inches, and the next two compartments will be 5 x6. Because each section is so small I plan on having the bubble trap baffles go under over under to make sure that the water flows through each section instead of just over the top. I like OF2F's rock/foam wall, so I worked that idea into my design as well.


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

i really like that lay out as well.. nicely done!!.. only issues as stated above is i am attempting to remin all within the tank and nothing hangin off... also trying to accomodate this with a cover .. 

so i have modified based on all of these issues... sketched it p on a note pad and think its fairly solid... here goes 

have the over flow chamber house the skimmer pump and run that into the next "section" which will be the actual skimmer this will out flow into the same area as the skimmer and have a sponge on the outlet to reduce bubbles.. further right next to this out let a bubble trap and then flow into the heater/return pump chamber.....
i will use the legs for the lights but instead of a glass top i will use a plexi top with cut outs to accommodate the legs, skimmer top and wires etc.. this will also have a trap door cut into it for adding or removing things as well as feeding. this will eliminate the need to remove the cover or hinge it which would be a pain due to the lights etc.
this cover will have to have a few reinforcing strips to prevent bowing under the heat of the lights but i think if i use nylon screws to hold them in place on the rim this issue will be overcome... considering the size of the tank i think a skimmer like a coralife 65 would be ample (or perhaps the one from Odessa as i like their products.) this is of course if i cannot find (or make ) a pack pack style one that is configured the way i want it..


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

small change in plans i just got in touch with the guy and its going to be a 30 breeder .. a little shorter but i think better for what i am trying to accomplish  negotiating the deal now and trying to get a few more things tossed in .. i am trading heavy but i want to get a good deal..


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

does any one have the inner dementions of a 30 breeder? i am considering the pieces to make my false wall and had a great idea but first i need to know the actual measurements.. 

OF - i may be going with the wall all the way across .. just need to see if the glass i have will fit correctly.. then the only issue is getting a few cuts or holes in it.. (free or cheep LOL)


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

i think i would wait until i got the actual tank for the final measurements. different manufacturers may be slightly different.


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

hmm true .. had not thought of that.. ok well with luck it will be in the next day or two..


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

UPDATE:

the tank is HEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

i am so excited... my lights fit i have a great pump (well a few of them really) but the main circulation pump is adjustable flow (not sure of brand) ....

looking at the plan and trying a few experimental options just to see (more details if they are successful) 

even got the wife on board with trying an other salt tank.... hehhehhe its always the cute fish that pull it off... 

next step build and work out details ... then water testing it all to be sure i have all the kinks worked out... 

now that its real..i can turn my thoughts to all the fine details of set up and no i am not talking stock yet....


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

i lied i need your help LOL...

so the issues i want to address at this moment are the cover and the inner "sump" area

lets start with the cover... i will be running 2 light fixtures on this tank and i really really want to use the legs and not do a canopy... personal preference no other reason... but a cover is a must 1. dog hair, 2. cat hair, 3 CATS, 4 live stock jumping risk (no plan for stock yet but who knows) and 5 evaporation 

now one thought i had was to use plexi... the issue is every time i have in the past it bows and under these lights it will fold up in a day. 
solution 1 is to put strips of plexi across the tank and bolt them to the rim via nylon bolts - down side the actual cover piece will still bow
solution 2 - go with glass cover and put lights right on it - did this before and really did not like the look or the hassle of moving them off everytime i need to top off or feed etc.. 

i need ideas on how to over come this issue or on how to create (or buy) a cover that will not bow and will accommodate my legs for the lights. 

moving on to the sump area - as noted above i wanted to segment only a part of the tank off and solve some of the issue with a skimmer etc.. but tonight i had an idea please tell me your thoughts.. (be honest but really dont be a punk i am here for help)
my thought was to take a 5 gallon bow from tank i have (acrylic) and mount it inside the 30 breeder on an open stand of some type (for water flow under it) and then drill inlets on one side of the 5 gal.. in side attach a acrylic box for the water to run into that will hold filter pad, chemipure or carbon and then out let on the bottom into the 5 gal... in here i can set up a small container to grow cheato and then the pump would be plumbed to 2-3 outlets to vary the direction of currents in the DT.. 

the 5 gal would be painted black (krylon fusion) and the in tank stand would be hidden or worked into the rocks i would have at least one small pump pointing towards this area to ensure water movement.. 


i would eventually have a HOT skimmer with a sponge on the output into the 5 gal....


sorry for the wall of text... please any ideas welcome....


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

is this a 40 breeder? if so i have a glass lid you can have, but it has like a 1'' - 2'' gap along the back for filters and so on. 

i dont think i would use plexi unless you were using LEDs. even glass will need frequent cleaning of salt creep. building a canopy is not an option?

i like your thinking with the bucket. i saw a tank where someone used a rectangle trash can cut in half verticly then siliconed into their tank. your ideas are flowing nice and it wont be long before you make this one yours.


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

its a 30 breeder (not as tall but same dementions) i would love to grab that from you i am going to PM you tonight about it i am going into leominster monday perhaps we can meet??


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

ok so 1st thing is thank you for the kind offer OF but as we talked about getting out to you would be a little hard... 

However the wife and i came up with the solution to the cover issue!!!we are going to use the front and back glass form a few 10 gallons we have around .... the over will be in three pieces with the outer 2 silicone in place and the center loose to accommodate moving for feeding and maintenance.. because of this we are moving our inner tank works to the middle and man it looks good .. as the actual work begins i will of course take pix ...


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

so i want a little input here but first let me explain what i have read versus what i want to do.. and no i am not looking for a flame festival just a good conversation about the ideas i am about to put forth... 

1st lets talk experience versus plan .. i used tap water in my last tank .. never again lesson learned it need to be RO
now last time i tried adding elements and really did not get all prepared for this along with trying to keep the tank bigger better wow .. yeah did not work out to well ..

so this will be a much simpler tank and i have been pouring over information here and a number of other places .. calling reefers i know and checking out what has worked and not worked and so far i see a trend that i must have missed the last time... KISS
Keep It Simple Stupid

with this in mind i now have a much stronger (i think) plan of action it goes against a lot of common thoughts but some of the longest lived tanks i have seen seem to stay true to this course of action... so let me put this forth

Tank: 30 breeder
Heater: 100W set to 74F 
Lights: 2x s bulb T5 (10k and true blue in each) 
flow: power heads (unknown brand but combined will move around 300-400 GPH), and either a HOB filter (wait for explanation) or a Canister filter with modifications to the media (again wait for it) 
filtration: 25 pounds dry rock (will become live) and 5-10 pounds Live rock, ~20 pounds live sand and WEEKLY water changes...

now for the canister or HOB part.. these would run filter floss to trap waist in and the floss would be changed weekly with the water. as i am able to make my own pads this is about $15 every 2-3 months.. if its a canister i will also run carbon in one chamber and leave one open or put LR in there to grow out over time and clean it when i do the WC... 

as i intend to use Reef crystals (the orange bag) or salt i will not need to add anything to the system as all nutrients will be replaced with water changes and running with out a skimmer will eliminate the removal of some of the elements..

a very simple tank with a weekly 15 -20 minutes of work involved and not a million dollars in gear and additives.. 

this plan was developed after many hours of research and all the tanks i reviewed seemed to be along these lines of ultra simple.. and many many of the more complicated tanks were failures... not saying they wont work but often they keep getting more laborious and complex...


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

following along with my last post i am curious about HOB size... i am thinking that this will primarily only filer off the top (i am making a skimmer box for the intake tube) so a smaller one would be ok to use... any thoughts on this? if in time i got a canister then it will do a bit more and have a space for carbon or chemipure (or some such product) but for now and the first few months (remember slooooooooww build) i think the smaller one should do the trick...


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## reefsahoy (Jul 16, 2010)

I would use this skimmer and a false back. It's only 4 x 4.5 inches and rated for 65 gals. It an internal skimmer too.











http://www.marinedepot.com/Hydor_Koralia_Slim_Skim_Internal_Protein_Skimmer_In_Sump_Venturi_Needle_Wheel_Protein_Skimmers-Hydor_USA-HD00771-FIPSISNW-vi.html


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

i like that the body of the skimmer is dark to help prevent algae build up.


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## trukgirl (Jan 28, 2010)

Hi Bear!!!!

Planning another tank I see...... I knew you wouldn't stay away!!


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

trukgirl said:


> Hi Bear!!!!
> 
> Planning another tank I see...... I knew you wouldn't stay away!!


LOL i was waiting for you to chime in!! yeah planning but as of yesterday the plan is on hold.. i am going to finish the DIY things and move forward with some of the plan but we got some really bad news yesterday thats going to keep this from getting wet for a few months... 

so i may ask a question from time to time but no real progress for quite awhile...


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## trukgirl (Jan 28, 2010)

Well I will be looking forward to news!!!

I've started a new project myself...a 7 ft long 125, bought used off craigslist of course!


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

:BIGsurprise:


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## trukgirl (Jan 28, 2010)

Yep... I suppose I should start a thread! Stay tuned lol


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

i hope by the time i post this you have started that thread!! you have no business throwing out such a teaser and not giving us more!! LOL


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## trukgirl (Jan 28, 2010)

ROFL Sorry it was finals week at school. Yes I'm going back to school so no more truck driving for me lol. Massage therapy! I'll get on that RIGHT NOW!


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

update - 

research continues but parts are coming together nicely.. lights are hung, super built desk for the stand is in place tank in place... heater in place... looks like i am going with a internal filter (just a box with teeth for surface skimming and a filter pad) i am debating on one big pump with a split return or 2 small pumps (leaning toward one large) and that is it my friends.. if things go well over the next 2.5 months i will find some nice dry rock to go in, i plan on using reef crystals to eliminated dosing since i am going with simple stock as well. 

stock plan is 
Macro algae
snails
Hermits (maybe) 
a few softies and perhaps a few LPS .. 
debating still on fish if any
not going coral crazy
will be medium flow so i am just about set to go...


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

any pictures? sorry if i missed this but what size tank did you settle on? its only going to have the surface box and no sump or AIO features?


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

not yet on the pix and when i do they will be junky phone pix (i broke the wife's camera )...

ok do again this plan may evolve a little from here but this is what i built....
i took a large cereal container (plastic) and cut off the handle
i cut the height to fit snugly under the rim of the tank (30 breeder BTW) 
i then cut teeth into the top on the front and two sides 
made a basket to slide inside out of plastic canvas this will hold the filter floss to catch large debris and the oils
under the basket is a place for the pump and the returns will go through the front corners 
at this moment i have it set up foe 2 small 90 GPH pumps but may change that out for a larger one ....

orrrrrr

make a PVC surface skimmer for a HOB and run that with a large power head on the opposite side... 

either way its going to stay simple and the bio load will remain light.. 
lots of macros will help and LR also ... nice long cycle and slow additions... if money or desire changes down the road i can always add on...


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

and


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

looking good.. i like the 30s shape


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

yeah its shallow but a nice foot print... plenty of room to play with rock scape and what not


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## trukgirl (Jan 28, 2010)

Nice! Keep it going!!


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

UPDATE!!!!!

i took apart another tank and got the glass cut so i have my top now!! its a solid piece on left and right front to back and the center is 1/2 inch from the back so my wires can run out and its right over the filter space so if i wanted to get a fire fish i dont have to worry about carper surfing!! oh and i put a 5.5 inch riser under the tank so its closer to the lights and it looks great ... i will post pix in a day or so .. i re-homed my cichlids in a great swap and got the wife the guppies she wanted so now as funds permit (or when/if i move this 55 gallon i have hanging out) i can really start my build now!! super excited and now its just waiting to get things in the order i want them
here is my remaining shopping list:

Reef Crystals
~25 pounds of base/dry rock
~20-30 pounds of Live Sand
30 gallons of RO or Distilled water (+2 extra for top off)
5 pound of live rock


then the cycle starts and i can turn my thoughts to Macros and stock...


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

so last night my kid (6yo) is walking by the tank and says "daddy, do you still have that rock in the drawer?" when i asked her what she ment she went over to my storage drawer and pulls out a little 8" branch of (now dry) live rock i had from my first tank. i said thank you and she insisted i put the rock in the empty tank on the spot... after which she said "there, now its started!!" LOL man kids really do say the darndest things ......


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

so the first wet test went... well ... not so great i found a number of issues with my design... i have potential solutions but would appreciate input

1) hoses through side of filter chamber are far to low and unless the pumps are on the chamber fills with water faster than i want it to - solution plug the holes and run the piping up to the top when i switch pumps the pipes will be 1/2 inch PVC so i will need to drill any way not a big deal

2) when i get things balanced out and running the way i want them to the chamber floats!!! possible solution - i am thinking that if i either put my rock next to it to hold it under the rim or attach a piece of rock to it this will not be a major issue.. 

3) when i change pumps and go to PVC since i need to pipe to the top of the chamber the floss basket i have made will no longer fit. making a new one takes about 5 minutes so not a huge deal the concern is that if i run the pipe through the center of the basket i may have issues when i need to clean the pump (or replace it if any problems) ... now one thought is to not PVC weld the joins for the T at the top of the chamber but i am concerned that being under constant pressure may pop it off and create a issue.. 

thoughts?


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

pond foam might help fill the holes on the overflow, prob wont be the cleanest looking but you can shave it when its dry and once coraline grows on it you'd prob. never tell anyways.

#2 i dont understand. the chamber floats? aquarium silicon it along the top rim. that should keep it in place and be easy enough to remove later down the road.

#3 using PVC glue should hold fine, remember to cover both ends with the purple and the solvent and give it a twist while then holding it in place. it wont be under as much pressure as its rated for, the solvent will bond the 2 pieces of PVC anyways.


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

re #2 - the plastic piece i made that is in the pic (the chamber) is the part that floats ... i was considering silicone but was unsure

as to #3 - i know that the PVC weld bonds them the issue being the need to potentially remove the T later with out totally dismantling the unit as once the tank is running pulling it out may be near impossible.. 

after this post i began to wonder if some sort of threaded coupling may be required.. i will have to play with it some more.. and fast too it looks like i may be ahead of schedule by 30 days or so


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

bearwithfish said:


> after this post i began to wonder if some sort of threaded coupling may be required.. i will have to play with it some more.. and fast too it looks like i may be ahead of schedule by 30 days or so


a threaded union, put one as close to the T as you can, but in a place you can still use it. if you need to remove the T you can do it at the union. if changes need to be made at that time, a new union could be purchased and you can replace the plumbing from the thread forward saving you from having to redo all of the plumbing. i like to put them here and there for any cleaning/future mods


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

i will have to see how big they are.. i really like that idea man thanks!!! 

as i look around hte store i will see what other ideas pop out at me i am not tied to this yet (perhaps going with the full AIO idea is not so bad LOL) 

depends on cost.. if i go with what i have (and make it work) i can get up and running faster than if i start fresh and spend the money elsewhere...


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

well here is an update.. last night got playing with ideas and decided that i am going to remake the overflow chamber and add some really heavy plexi i have to the bottom. this will add weight and give me a place to put a nice size piece of LR to hold it in place  .. the new pump is coming today so this should be built in the next 24-48 hours and i just got word that a super nice gentleman i had dealt with before is going to let me have a few pieces of live rubble!! i am going to set it up in a small tank with a heater and a power head to keep it live while i get the stuff to start my tank and if all goes as planned i should be up and running in the next 4 days !!! i am super excited.. i will need to add to everything later but a nice start to a planned long cycle (not to mention 30 days early LOL)


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

soooooooooo eeeexxxxcccciiiiiittttttteeeddddd!!!!!!!!!!

went to meet up with this guy for some rubble... man gives me about 5-8 pounds of rock from quarter size to baseball!! lots of life and (not sure if he knew) a CORAL!!!! its all angry and puffed up just now but its green and has purple heads when it calms down i will take pix to post as i start my real build thread which now has officially started!!!! the guy hooked me up with some salt water (almost 5 gallons) and i have all of this in a 5 gallon tank with a powerhead just keeping things going ... and the guy had a all glass top i could have.... so if i decide to change how i want the top (currently 3 pieces of glass) i got that too!!! 

man i hope the buyer for my 55 does not bail on me tomorrow once its gone i get my salt, sand, and water then things really pick up !!!


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