# Amazon biotope



## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

I recently got a 20 gallon high aquarium and plan on making it an amazon biotope. Here are a few questions:

1) Would an AquaClear 20 work for a filter or do I need a 30? 

2) What should the substrate be?

3) What would you do for stocking? (water is approx. 8-9dH and 7.8pH)


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## Mettalikatt (Jul 26, 2010)

I can't tell you much about the substrate or filter w/o knowing what you do want to stock. The only thing I can say about your 7.8ph is it's a bit high, like mine which is 8.2 ideally most fish the closer to 7 the better, excluding at least cichlids. If you're buying fish from a store chances are they're tank raised and have been all their life, as your store for a test of their water and compare it to yours. I run Gourami, Danio, Barbs, and a Rainbow Shark out of those fish none of them are ideal for the high ph, but my stores all run the same water and these fish aren't wild, so their natural habitat is literally 4 walls and they'll probably be fine.


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

Mettalikatt said:


> I can't tell you much about the substrate or filter w/o knowing what you do want to stock. The only thing I can say about your 7.8ph is it's a bit high, like mine which is 8.2 ideally most fish the closer to 7 the better, excluding at least cichlids. If you're buying fish from a store chances are they're tank raised and have been all their life, as your store for a test of their water and compare it to yours. I run Gourami, Danio, Barbs, and a Rainbow Shark out of those fish none of them are ideal for the high ph, but my stores all run the same water and these fish aren't wild, so their natural habitat is literally 4 walls and they'll probably be fine.


I believe glowlight, silvertip, and lemon tetras do fine with a pH from 6-8, as do ottos. Also, Julii corys can live in that pH, though its at the high end.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Metalikatt is correct, filtration should depend upon the type of fish intended for the aquarium. As you intend plants, filtration is only there to move the water through media to keep it clear (the plants do the "clean" part) and water movement depends upon fish's requirements.

As you mention glowlight, silvertip, lemon tetra and corys in your last post--these are all forest fish from slow-moving streams and flooded forest--the water flow should be minimal, so forget the Aquaclear (overkill) and go with a simple sponge filter.

Substrate can be fine gravel, or sand it you want the additional issues. Fine gravel in a dark but neutral colour works very well for plant roots, bacteria colonization in the substrate (essential) and the fish mentioned.


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

Would black eco complete be good a substrate?

Also, as for stocking, how does this sound?

9 glowlight tetra

6 silvertip or lemon tetra

4 otto

7 julii cory


Marbled hatchetfish don't do good in 7.8pH right?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Yes, Eco-complete is good on all counts. If the extra cost (compared to basic aquarium gravel) isn't an issue, it will do nicely.

On the stocking; we have fish profiles (click on the second tab from the left in the blue bar at the top, or on shaded names in posts) that include information on water, tank size, compatibility, special needs, etc. The profile of the Silvertip Tetra mentions it is a lively, active swimmer needing room to swim. A 20g high will not suit this fish as well as it will the Glowlight Tetra and Lemon Tetra which are not quite as active. Nine glowlight and 6 lemon are fine.

If you really like otos as a fish, fine; 4 will be OK, but wait until the tank is well established and there needs to be algae or they may well starve. If you are only thinking of them for algae, I would wait until that becomes an issue before deciding to get them. My point here is not to buy any fish to do a task, unless you really like the fish on its own merits.

Juli corys are quite rare; the corys often seen in stores as Corydoras julii are usually not, but another similar-patterned fish (our profile explains this). Not that that matters, if you like the fish whatever it's name, a group of 7 corys will be fine. You might want to limit them to five though.

Hatchets that are commercially raised should be OK, same as glowlights and lemon tetra; wild fish of any of these will have problems in basic water.

On the water, do you know the hardness? Your water company can tell you this, and it helps to know, since the hardness will be an indicator of how acidic the water may become over time in the aquarium. I can explain more when I know the hardness number.

Byron.


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## fish1983 (Aug 27, 2010)

all the info posted so far is spot on. the only thing i would like to add and correct me if im wrong... for an amazon biotope the ph seems a little high. generally amazon fish like in the lower ph range 6-6.8 or so. adding some drift wood to the aquarium and even some peat moss to your filter will help lower your ph and add tannins to the water.  have fun!


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

I believe the hardness is 150 (GH) ppm.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

TFish said:


> I believe the hardness is 150 (GH) ppm.


OK, that is equivalent to about 8 dGH, which is considered soft to very slightly medium hard. This will be fine for the fish mentioned. Now to the effect on pH.

As fish1983 mentioned, the pH is a bit high. However, two things. First, commercially raised fish are usually adapted somewhat to higher pH which is reflected in the range for pH in the profiles. Sometimes the fish may not be as colourful even though it will basically manage at the higher end of the range, and that is noted in both Glowlight and Lemon Tetra profiles. But here we come to the hardness; it is not high so all else being equal, the pH in the aquarium will tend to lower a bit over time. This is due to the natural biological processes that acidify the water. The degree of KH (carbonate hardness) "buffers" this somewhat, but with a low GH I would expect (though this can vary) the KH to be comparable. So. as long as there are no calcareous substances (limestone, dolomite, marble, lavarock, coral) in the tank, this should occur.

Adding real wood also assists this process, and the more wood the better with Amazonian fish. Sunken wood is abundant in many of the streams, and certainly in the flooded forest ponds and pools. This will aid in lowering the pH by natural means, which is the only way this should ever be done.

The degree to which the pH will lower depends upon the KH of the water and the amount of wood. If you wanted to, you could use prepared water instead of tap water for water changes. With a 20g tank this would not be as cumbersome as it would for larger tanks. By prepared I mean using rainwater, distilled water, RO (reverse osmosis) water. I don't consider this necessary in your case, but it is another method. Keeping the water changes small, say 30% of the tank weekly, will also help to maintain a lower pH over time. And with plenty of plants and not overstocked with fish, water changes can be minimal. Some planted tank authorities recommend no water changes for months, and this can work if well planted and with a moderate fish load.

Hope this helps to explain things. As other questions arise, ask away.

Byron.


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

Thanks for the explanation, it helped a lot:-D. I'll put as much wood as I can in there. I just have three quick questions:

1) How much gravel or sand or whatever should I need?

2) As for stocking, can I switch the ottos with hatchetfish?

3) Can I put some sort of carpet plant along the bottom or do the cories need to be able to reach the substrate?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

TFish said:


> Thanks for the explanation, it helped a lot:-D. I'll put as much wood as I can in there. I just have three quick questions:
> 
> 1) How much gravel or sand or whatever should I need?
> 
> ...


Depth of substrate depends upon the plants; as this is Amazon-geared, you will want swords (Echinodorus species), and they have extensive root systems. Two inches minimum at the front, with 4 inches at the back. You can slope it front to back, or if you have some flat-like rock (inert, nothing calcareous remember) it is nice to build terraces which keeps the substrate more where you put it (it does shift over time). So for a 20g tall, I would think probably 20-30 pounds. Eco-complete comes in bags, I've seen it in stores but can't remember the weight, but one of the "larger" bags would suffice.

Yes on the hatchets, a good idea. Otos if needed can be added later, but there are several neat fish that will eat algae the same as otos, like Farlowella, whiptails, so that's something for later consideration.

My 90g flooded Amazon forest tank is the most plant-thick tank I have, and I try to keep some open substrate along parts of the front for feeding corys and other bottom fish. I'm not much on "carpet" plants, but I have the pygmy chain sword in the 90g and it is ideal. It would do well in your 20g. Check the profile for info, or have a look at photos of my tank under my "Aquariums".


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## fish1983 (Aug 27, 2010)

as for substrate a good rule of thumb for a planted aquarium is two to three inches of substrate and cories need to be able to easily reach the surface of the aquarium. the are naturally a shallow water fish. as long as your tank isnt deeper than 18" max from water surface to substrate you will be fine. also cories are very sensitive on their undersides and you dont want to use a pointy abrasive sort of substrate. a smooth river rock is nice also a sand sort of substrate. i mix the two. i have river rock and a black semi sandy plant substrate. the cories love the sand substrate. the like to dig around it and even bury themselves in it. also keep in mind that they are a shoaling fish and should be kept in groups of 6 or more. i love them! lots of fun to watch!


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## bigehugedome (Aug 2, 2010)

as far as I know eco complete only comes in 20lbs and you should be fine with 2 bags


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## fish1983 (Aug 27, 2010)

bigehugedome said:


> as far as I know eco complete only comes in 20lbs and you should be fine with 2 bags


you are correct. its good stuff its what i use


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

Ok, so I plan on getting the substrate (and possibly driftwood) this weekend and now have a few questions on plants:

Are there any sword plants that would take up no more than a quarter of the tank (preferably smaller)?

Are there any floating plants?

Any other plants that are easy to grow?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

TFish said:


> Ok, so I plan on getting the substrate (and possibly driftwood) this weekend and now have a few questions on plants:
> 
> Are there any sword plants that would take up no more than a quarter of the tank (preferably smaller)?
> 
> ...


I suggest you browse the plant profiles, second tab from the left in the blue bar at the top. Several swords are included, floating plants, stem plants (some also do well floating so check those too). Your questions are all covered in the profiles, and there are photos of the plant species.


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## fish1983 (Aug 27, 2010)

TFish said:


> Ok, so I plan on getting the substrate (and possibly driftwood) this weekend and now have a few questions on plants:
> 
> Are there any sword plants that would take up no more than a quarter of the tank (preferably smaller)?
> 
> ...




most amazon plants are easy to grow and take low to moderate light and are very tolerant to a wide rang of water perimeters. a good floating plant is amazon frogbit. it grows very fast though. also anubias is a good hardy amazon plant that you grow attached to a rock or driftwood. sword plants come in many colors and sized and will do nice in your aquarium. a standard amazon sword will do nice as a mid plant and doesn't get to big. Brazilian penny wart is pretty also. it is more of a vine like plant and will even grow across the surface if you let it to give some shade. just dont let the sword have to much shade or the leaves will turn yellow and fall off. if you plant accordingly you will have a beautiful planted aquarium full of awesome plants that are hardy with no need for special lights or Co2. the plant section on the fish profiles page gives a lot of useful information as well.


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

Ok, so I'll probably will use amazon frogbit, but sweetaquatics is sold out:-(. I'm also looking at a few other plants, but I'll have to wait anyway for the frogbit. I will also get driftwood from there. Do you think this piece:

Aquarium Plants Pond Plants From Sweet Aquatics

plus this piece:

Aquarium Plants Pond Plants From Sweet Aquatics

would be too much?


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## bigehugedome (Aug 2, 2010)

If your tank is 24" long (you said 20 high right?) then both pieces laid longways next to each other would only be 21" so that will give you some room on the sides for any bottom dwellers to swim around and since they are not wide you should have room in the fron and back to plant. Plus you can always stack the wood on top somehow to make your own caves and whatnot. 

I donno about you but driftwood is expensive around me, and I dont really ever see small pieces. Since I was already ordering from SA I ordered a few extra pieces and combined the shipping. Overall i spent less on the wood and plants then I would have spent on a large piece of prepared wood from my LFS so it was worth it IMO. I now have some extra pieces I can add later or use in another tank. SA is not the best wood but it is nice and cheap and you may already order plants from there. I think you will be really happy with those pieces.


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## fish1983 (Aug 27, 2010)

TFish said:


> Ok, so I'll probably will use amazon frogbit, but sweetaquatics is sold out:-(. I'm also looking at a few other plants, but I'll have to wait anyway for the frogbit. I will also get driftwood from there. Do you think this piece:
> 
> Aquarium Plants Pond Plants From Sweet Aquatics
> 
> ...


i go down by the river and collect my own driftwood. now this means driftwood, not fallen branches and pieces of trees. its pretty easy to tell the difference between tree pieces and wood that has been in the river for who knows how long. i take it home and scrub the hell out of it with bristle pads and tooth brushes in the tub under hot hot water. then i let it dry and cook it in the oven at about 350 to 400 for about 20 min. this kills everything then i tie or silicone (with aquarium silicone) rocks to the pieces to make sure it stays on the bottom. after being under water for awhile it will stay on its own. it will release tannins into the water making your aquarium a tea color. this is perfect for an amazon biotope beings that native species of fish and plants are blackwater species anyhow. it will also help lower the ph and soften it up a bit. total cost $0


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

I'm probably going to keep the driftwood (in my shopping cart that is). These are the plants I want and I believe they are fine with my water parameters, but want to make sure:

Echinodorus Bleheri (Amazon Sword) 
Anubias Barteri Var. Nana 
Echinodorus Tenellus (Narrow Leaf Chain Sword) 
Alternanthera Reineckii Var. Roseafolia 
Bacopa Australis 
Amazon Frogbit

As for lighting, would medium be good for all plants or can I do high light and just plant the anubias in the shade of the frognit?

Would EcoComplete be a good source of iron for the amazon sword and others? What other fertililzers would I need?

Here is my planting plan:

Amazon Sword in the back corners with the Alternanthera in the middle of them.

Driftwood making a /\ like shape but not at as sharp of an angle at the middle left.

Narrow Leaf Sword in front of the driftwood.

Anubias on the driftwood on the right.

Bacopa in front of the Amazon Sword in the right corner.

About 2" of just gravel/substrate with no plants in the front.

(I don't know if this sounds too confusing or not, but I thought it was better than nothing).


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

fish1983 said:


> i go down by the river and collect my own driftwood. now this means driftwood, not fallen branches and pieces of trees. its pretty easy to tell the difference between tree pieces and wood that has been in the river for who knows how long. i take it home and scrub the hell out of it with bristle pads and tooth brushes in the tub under hot hot water. then i let it dry and cook it in the oven at about 350 to 400 for about 20 min. this kills everything then i tie or silicone (with aquarium silicone) rocks to the pieces to make sure it stays on the bottom. after being under water for awhile it will stay on its own. it will release tannins into the water making your aquarium a tea color. this is perfect for an amazon biotope beings that native species of fish and plants are blackwater species anyhow. it will also help lower the ph and soften it up a bit. total cost $0


I would do that, but I'm not going to a river anytime soon and I doubt my mom would like to take me, so considering I'm already ordering stuff from SA, I might as well get driftwood there (it's a lot cheaper than Petco anyways )


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## fish1983 (Aug 27, 2010)

TFish said:


> I would do that, but I'm not going to a river anytime soon and I doubt my mom would like to take me, so considering I'm already ordering stuff from SA, I might as well get driftwood there (it's a lot cheaper than Petco anyways )


this is true. well now at least you know for future reference


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

TFish said:


> I'm probably going to keep the driftwood (in my shopping cart that is). These are the plants I want and I believe they are fine with my water parameters, but want to make sure:
> 
> Echinodorus Bleheri (Amazon Sword)
> Anubias Barteri Var. Nana
> ...


Those plants are fine in your water parameters.

On light, what do you have/are you getting? Medium is more than enough, but I may have more when I know the light type.


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

I don't know what I'll be getting yet, but my choices are probably 2 10, 15, 20, or 25 watt 6500k bulbs, but I don't have a hood yet, so I really don't know...


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

TFish said:


> I don't know what I'll be getting yet, but my choices are probably 2 10, 15, 20, or 25 watt 6500k bulbs, but I don't have a hood yet, so I really don't know...


Over a 20g I would get an incandescent hood; they are considerably less expensive, and with the Compact Fluorescent bulbs now available provide excellent light. I recently got this type of hood for my "spare" 20g, and I have two 10w Daylight bulbs 6500K by GE which you can get in hardware stores. The light over this tank is to my eyes the same as my large tanks, and the plants grow superbly. Here's a photo; it's is not "aquascaped" or anything, just a mish-mash of plants from the main tanks, and a few new ones awaiting planting.


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

I like your tank, it looks nice whether its aquascaped or not. I forgot to mention my tank is right next to a window (which I know will cause algae and temperature changes, but I have no oother place). Would I need less light (as in light bulbs)?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

TFish said:


> I like your tank, it looks nice whether its aquascaped or not. I forgot to mention my tank is right next to a window (which I know will cause algae and temperature changes, but I have no oother place). Would I need less light (as in light bulbs)?


I hope the window has a blind or drapes. My experimental 10g sand tank is in front of a window for its source of light, no artificial light, and algae is very fast to appear. I am now encouraging that, as I have Farlowella fry that need a good source of fresh tender algae and they are in there for that reason. But before that, I closed the blinds quite a bit.

I would still get the two 10w bulbs; they will be your main light source.


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

The window does have drapes, but my mom won't let me keep them down all the time... Maybe I can make some sort of thing and put it on the back of the aquarium like a background using suction cups.:dunno: Any suggestion on what that "thing" should be made of (fabric,etc.)?


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## fish1983 (Aug 27, 2010)

TFish said:


> The window does have drapes, but my mom won't let me keep them down all the time... Maybe I can make some sort of thing and put it on the back of the aquarium like a background using suction cups.:dunno: Any suggestion on what that "thing" should be made of (fabric,etc.)?


You can purchase aquarium backdrops at your lfs. I just use tape to hang em up or you can paint the back of the aquarium as well. A spray paint that works on glass works well. If you purchase a backdrop just make sure it has a natural scene rather than something overly colorful. They're just made of plastic
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bigehugedome (Aug 2, 2010)

I spray painted my tank. If you decide to go that route let me know and i will give you some tips. However if i shine light through the back of my tank you can see through it, but when its just under a hood light its an amazing black background. Maybe you would just need a few more coats. I used spray paint for plastics


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

I think I'll probably just do the back drop idea (don't want to do anything permenant to the tank).

Thanks for all the suggestions!


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

Is there any gravel you can get online that looks like Eco Complete?

Can you grow the plants I mentioned without any fish (therefore without any Co2) for a couple months?


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## fish1983 (Aug 27, 2010)

There are several kinds of amazon plants that grow fine without high output lights and Co2. And as long as your substrate isn't huge or microscopic it will work just fine. Florite I think it is by seachem is a good substrate
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

Ok, I'll look into Florite.
And are there any floating south american plants beside Frogbit?


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## fish1983 (Aug 27, 2010)

Duckweed is always good to put in a tank. Is a low maintenance fast growing floating plant that also helps reduce nitrates and other impurities in the aquarium
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

Isn't it hard to control though?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

In a sense, yes. It is literally a "weed" and can be difficult to eradicate. It is native to many parts of NA. On the plus side, it reproduces so fast it uses nutrients quickly (good water filtration). Some herbivorous fish will eat it, though you are unlikely to have those in a planted tank to begin with.

Along the same lines as duckweed is a lovely floating plant called Salvinia auriculata. I will have to add this to the plant profiles as it is very beautiful and hardy. A type of rootless fern. I had it in the 1990's in my SA tanks and liked it; haven't seen it around here lately.


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

But, they don't sell it a sweet aquatics!:-( Uggh! lol

Does, pennywort look good floating?

Is this a good final (as of now ) stocking plan:

9 Glowlight or Neon Tetras
5 Lemon Tetras
5 Small Cories
5 Hatchetfish
1 male or 2 female apistogramma borellii


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

TFish said:


> But, they don't sell it a sweet aquatics!:-( Uggh! lol
> 
> Does, pennywort look good floating?
> 
> ...


Pennywort is excellent floating.

On the stock, I would suggest 7 glowlight/neons, 6 lemon and 6 hatchetfish. Leave the Apistogramma until last.


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

Ok, added pennywort to the shopping cart 

Which would be better, two female or one male apistogramma?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

TFish said:


> Ok, added pennywort to the shopping cart
> 
> Which would be better, two female or one male apistogramma?


Best kept as one male with 2+ females. The male has the beautiful colouration, females are plain.


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

How likely are the chances of having fry? If I get, lets say, 3 females and 1 male, will they mate? If, the chances are pretty high, can I have just 1 male? Will he be aggressive?

Also, what is the growth rate of Amazon Sword? I bought two several months ago for my 10 galllon, then decided to do the biotope, and just put them in a 1 gallon with low light (not the best growing conditions, I know;-)). Well now turns out I can use them. The only light is window light, no fish, no Co2, no heater, just Jungle root tabs. Should I use Flourish, too? Also, currently there is no water movement, is that ok?

Sorry for all the questions...


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

> How likely are the chances of having fry? If I get, lets say, 3 females and 1 male, will they mate? If, the chances are pretty high, can I have just 1 male? Will he be aggressive?


Almost guaranteed a male/female in the same tank will spawn. Cichlids protect their eggs and fry quite well, although in community tanks something usually gets them before long. It is amazing (well, probably not all that amazing really) how determined fish as "innocent" as corys can be when they detect fry. Most cichlids should be kept in a pair or group, with a few exceptions. It is more natural, and the spawning rituals can be very fascinating to observe.



> Also, what is the growth rate of Amazon Sword? I bought two several months ago for my 10 galllon, then decided to do the biotope, and just put them in a 1 gallon with low light (not the best growing conditions, I know:wink. Well now turns out I can use them. The only light is window light, no fish, no Co2, no heater, just Jungle root tabs. Should I use Flourish, too? Also, currently there is no water movement, is that ok?


If you mean the Echinodorus bleherae, one will almost fill your 20g by itself once it gets going. But regular removel of some of the older leaves may inhibit growth a bit. I have found this species to basically grow to the aquarium size and not much beyond, especially if light is moderate and it is not overfed with nutrients.

Are your questions related to the 20g, or the temporary 1 gallon? In the 1 g as a temporary measure, the plants should remain alive. In the 20g I would absolutely consider artifical light, and fertilization. Root tabs are good with swords, and if you have any other plants such as floating or stem, liquid fert will be needed and the swords will make use of that too. CO2 is not necessary for swords.



> Sorry for all the questions...


Don't be. How can any of us learn if we don't ask questions?

Byron.


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

Thanks for the quick answers.

I would love to breed the apistogrammas, but I don't have anywhere to sell/giveaway the fry.

The questions were for the 20g (annd I will get artifical light within 3-4 months), but considering how big the amazon swords will get, is there any smaller type of sword that won't take over my tank ?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

TFish said:


> Thanks for the quick answers.
> 
> I would love to breed the apistogrammas, but I don't have anywhere to sell/giveaway the fry.
> 
> The questions were for the 20g (annd I will get artifical light within 3-4 months), but considering how big the amazon swords will get, is there any smaller type of sword that won't take over my tank ?


I would hold off on the apistos for the present until the tank is established. There are other species too, for later.

Check the plant profiles for the Dwarf Sword and Pygmy Chain Sword (click on shaded names...). I would still use the sword you have, it might be Echinodorus amazonicus and not E. bleherae, they are identical but the E. amazonicus remains smaller.

Byron.


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

Ok, I'll keep it for now. I got it from petco in one of those plastic tube things if that helps with identitfictation...


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

TFish said:


> Ok, I'll keep it for now. I got it from petco in one of those plastic tube things if that helps with identitfictation...


Be thankful it was a true sword. Chain stores frequently sell terrestrial plants as aquarium plants and they do not last.


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## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

Probably too late, but Anubias is asian, not amazon.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

redchigh said:


> Probably too late, but Anubias is asian, not amazon.


African I think you mean, slip of the tongue (or keys;-)). I didn't even see Anubias mentioned, must be really past it:roll:.


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## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

Ah yes, African.

It was on the bottom of the first page.


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

Oh, it is? My bad... Is there any amazon plants that can be attached to driftwood?


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## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

Not that I know of.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Java Moss can be used to cover wood or rock; there are "mosses" in all tropical waters so while it may technically be a SE Asian moss it will basically look like those in South America.


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

Ok then, I won't put anything on driftwood (want it to be pure amazon), but thanks for suggestion.


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## fish1983 (Aug 27, 2010)

Pure amazon... My absolute favorite  you should post pics when your done
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

fish1983 said:


> Pure amazon... My absolute favorite  you should post pics when your done
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Of course :wink:


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## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

That is a good point by byron... Mosses are everywhere and no one can tell which is which..

If someone asks about the moss, just say "Oh that? That's a rare moss from Brazil called "Musgo em Madeira"

Brazil speaks portugese, and that in portugese means "Moss on Wood" :twisted:


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

AquaClears are supposed to be quiet, right? Mine is pretty noisey at the moment, ecspecially compared to my AquaTech, which makes no noise at all. Will it wear down over time? It's not the lid (mainly) and there isn't anything on the impeller...


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

Just went to the lfs and here are the tetras/catfish they have:

Tetras

- neon
- glowlight
- pirstella
- phantom (aka black widow I think)
- silvertip
- bloodfin
- lemon
- skirt (black and white)

Catfish

- spotted cory (?)
- julii cory (or atleast labled that)
- emerald catfish


Just wondering if this would work and, if not, what should I swap out:

- 7-8 neon or glowlight tetras
- 6 bloodfin tetras 
- 5 cories
- 6 hatchetfish (will keep an eye out for them)
- 1-3 dwarf cichlids (will keep an eye out) 

And by the way I returned the AquaClear and couldn't find a sponge filter. Where do you get them?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

TFish said:


> Just went to the lfs and here are the tetras/catfish they have:
> 
> Tetras
> 
> ...


I think you've narrowed down to the best of the tetra given your store list, tank size (20g high) and parameters. On the catfish, the Emerald is likely Brochis splendens although it might be Corydoras aeneus. Nothing wrong with Brochis except they grow larger so I would ensure it is a cory if that is chosen. Both are in our profiles along with info on telling them apart.

Sponge filters are normally sold in fish stores, at least those around here. In fact I bought one yesterday.


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

I've been thinking and realized I don't like hatchetfish (lol). Would bloodfins school at the top of the aquarium enough to be the only thing up there? How is this stocking plan (sorry it changed again...):

7 bloodfin tetra
7 neon tetra
5 cories
1 bristlenose pleco (when I have enough algae)
1-2 dwarf cichlids

I could still put something in there, right? What should it be?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

TFish said:


> I've been thinking and realized I don't like hatchetfish (lol). Would bloodfins school at the top of the aquarium enough to be the only thing up there? How is this stocking plan (sorry it changed again...):
> 
> 7 bloodfin tetra
> 7 neon tetra
> ...


Fine. Bloodfins like the upper half of the tank but not at the surface like hatchets.


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## fish1983 (Aug 27, 2010)

I have emerald cories and I love them! They are so much fun to watch swimming around together darting from surface to substrate 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

I know, they always look so active at the store! Can't wait to get them.

I plan to get the plants in late October-early November by the way. Sorry for the wait, but I have to save up my money (well actually earn money and then save it ;-)).

For something I can do right now, should I gather any rocks or bark or leaves (I've seen a few aquariums with them) or something (I live near woods)?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

TFish said:


> I know, they always look so active at the store! Can't wait to get them.
> 
> I plan to get the plants in late October-early November by the way. Sorry for the wait, but I have to save up my money (well actually earn money and then save it ;-)).
> 
> For something I can do right now, should I gather any rocks or bark or leaves (I've seen a few aquariums with them) or something (I live near woods)?


One must be careful collecting "wild" objects. Rocks can absorb toxic substances and there is no way to extract these but they can leech out over time in the aquarium. If there are no roads, houses, industrial sites in the area of the rocks, they may be suitable. Then the issue is calcium; if they are calcareous they will harden the water and raise the pH. A few drops of acid on the rock will test for calcium; if it fizzes, it is calcareous. Some use vinegar, but it really is not strong enough; the regent #2 in the nitrate test kit is acid and that is more reliable.

Leaves need to be thoroughly dried. Oak leaves work; there are some others, I think Aunt kymmie has used, she may spot this and chime in. On no account put fresh or non-dried leaves in the tank. The leaves will rot and need to be removed and replaced. Dwarf cichlid aquarists use leaves for some cichlid species that spawn on them. I have know reputable cichlid aquarists who have killed off entire tanks of fish due to toxins leeching from leaves.

Wood carries similar risks. Oak or any hardwood works, never coniferous or softwoods. And again, it must be completely dead and dry. Then soaked (boiled to removed parasites). Branches work better than large pieces and are less likely to cause trouble.


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

Seems to risky, I won't put anyhting in there...


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

(100th post!)

I plan on taking th driftwood out of the 10g and put it in the 20g. It's pretty big (16 or 17", maybe a little more). How/where should I put it within the tank? (Will post pics soon showing a couple different positions)


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

Rember a while ago when we talked about the amazon sword and the miniature amazon sword? Is Echinodorus Bleheri Compacta (Amazon Compacta Sword) it?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

TFish said:


> Rember a while ago when we talked about the amazon sword and the miniature amazon sword? Is Echinodorus Bleheri Compacta (Amazon Compacta Sword) it?


The "Compacta" is a hybrid, not a natural species, and I've never had it or seen it locally. I assume from the name it is not as big, but perhaps someone who is familiar with it can tell us.


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## burnsbabe (Jul 15, 2010)

the Compacta will usually get half an aquarium high or so, maybe less. That's a standard 10 or 20 gallon so probably 6" max.


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

burnsbabe said:


> the Compacta will usually get half an aquarium high or so, maybe less. That's a standard 10 or 20 gallon so probably 6" max.


How wide will it get in a 20 high?


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

Here is my idea as far as plants (first let me show you some pics):

Zoom-in near wood:








Above tank:








Side veiw










I plan to put E. Cordifolius behind the driftwood in the back-left corner.
Bacopa Australis will be in clumps of 2-4 stems around the driftwood.
Amazon Sword will go on the right half of the aquarium, mostly filling that area.
Pennywort will be floating and planted.
E. Tenellus (or however you spell it) will be on the ground in the remaining areas (except for parts trimmed back for cories).

Any suggestions?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

That sounds good plant-wise. One thought on the wood (nice piece too), when you have substrate it will be easier I know, to move it a bit. Slightly forward and to the right, just a tad, with the end on the substrate, leaving the other end in the corner. If that makes any sense.


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## bigehugedome (Aug 2, 2010)

Very excited to see this all set up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

Instead of trimming an area for the cories, I think it would be more effective to get a piece of slate and lay it flat. Then the Tenellus won't be able to grow over it and you can drop the sinking pellets there.


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## burnsbabe (Jul 15, 2010)

The Compacta will take up a fair area. If you're doing the right side in swords, I'd just go half and half with the Compacta in the front.

That is a nice piece of wood. Once you have the substrate in I'd fidget with it a bit and get everything set up nice.


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

redchigh said:


> Instead of trimming an area for the cories, I think it would be more effective to get a piece of slate and lay it flat. Then the Tenellus won't be able to grow over it and you can drop the sinking pellets there.


Would the Tenellus be able to grow if I burry the slate about an 1" into the gravel?


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## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

As long as it sticks up a little bit it would be fine.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

That's a good idea with the slate, and I did something similar a while back--but it didn't really work. First, E. tenellus will send runners over the slate, and while the plants can't root in the slate, they will still appear, so it is no different picking those out (and breaking the runners) than in regular gravel or sand. I have this plant growing over rocks very nicelyl I keep open areas in the front, and it is not much effort to pinch off a runner when it starts, as during the weekly water change; I never havemore than one or maybe two each time. Second, the corys like to root in the substrate, and this is entertaining to watch--at least I think it is. Feeding them on slate loses that, plus mine didn't seem too keen on the slate anyway. Just my experiences.


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

Byron said:


> That's a good idea with the slate, and I did something similar a while back--but it didn't really work. First, E. tenellus will send runners over the slate, and while the plants can't root in the slate, they will still appear, so it is no different picking those out (and breaking the runners) than in regular gravel or sand. I have this plant growing over rocks very nicelyl I keep open areas in the front, and it is not much effort to pinch off a runner when it starts, as during the weekly water change; I never havemore than one or maybe two each time. Second, the corys like to root in the substrate, and this is entertaining to watch--at least I think it is. Feeding them on slate loses that, plus mine didn't seem too keen on the slate anyway. Just my experiences.


Ok then, I won't but slate in.


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

Would Bolivian Rams or Apistogramma borelliis be able to happily breed in my aquarium and not be too aggressive to co-exist with the other fish?

Would I need a seperate tank to put the fry? (I know the parents will raise them, but if I have to grow them to 1 inch won't the males become aggressive with each other?)

Just curious...


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

TFish said:


> Would Bolivian Rams or Apistogramma borelliis be able to happily breed in my aquarium and not be too aggressive to co-exist with the other fish?
> 
> Would I need a seperate tank to put the fry? (I know the parents will raise them, but if I have to grow them to 1 inch won't the males become aggressive with each other?)
> 
> Just curious...


I have had spawnings of the Bolivian Ram (twice in the past couple of months) and the common Ram previously--both fish in large community tanks. And while not Apistogramma borellii, I have bred A. bitaeniata a couple of times, in a breeding tank (a planted 15g with just the group of five apistos). In a community tank you are highly unlikely to have fry survive to maturity. The parents are very good at protecting the eggs and fry, but once the fry become free swimming and the parents are herding them around the aquarium, they are almost certain to be gobbled up by the other fish. All catfish which are nocturnal will often get the eggs during darkness. My common Ram fry were eaten within minutes by a few corys when they spotted them. And both Bolivian spawnings have been eaten, one as eggs by corys at night, the second as fry by tetra during the day. In both cases the other fish "ganged up" and the parents had no hope of fending them off.

Turning to your question on aggression. I would not have a pair of Bolivians in a 20g community tank. On their own, this is plenty of room, and you would have maturing fry if they spawned. I would not even consider one sole Bolivian in a 20g, these may be "dwarf" cichlids but at 3.5 inches (males) they are not "small" when they are in a mixed tank. I had the male on his own for 18 months, and periodically he would decide it was time to spawn and clean a pit in the gravel, even though no female was in the tank; at at these times he defended that territory quite well, and this is in a 115g tank. I added a female a couple of months back, and when they spawn the male (and female too) are pretty rough fish. This is still in the 115g; in a very confined space there would also be considerably more stress to the rams themselves--they are constantly "chasing" other fish to maintain their territory, and in the confined area of a 20g the territory is basically the tank. Both the rams and the other fish would be stressed out by this, unless the other fish were all upper-water inhabitants. Rams remain close to the substrate, so their prime targets are all fish in the lower 1/3 or 1/2 of the tank.

The A. borellii reach just over 2 inches (males), and a pair when spawning would create much the same issues as the ram even though slightly smaller in size.

Byron.


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

Ok, then what cichlids would be good for my tank and how many? (Doesn't matter if they breed or not)


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

TFish said:


> Ok, then what cichlids would be good for my tank and how many? (Doesn't matter if they breed or not)


Aside from spawning times, most of the true dwarf cichlids (genera Apistogramma, Dicrossus, Taeniacara) would be fine in a pair. The A. borellii would work out; sorry if I was a bit unclear earlier. As I mentioned previously, these are not quite the problem that the larger Rams are when spawning, and upper-level fish are basically ignored. The pleco might get harassed a bit; with plenty of hiding spots (caves, wood) it would be OK.


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

wouldn't the cories get bullied too?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

TFish said:


> wouldn't the cories get bullied too?


Yes...sorry, missed those before. H'm, maybe I need a rest:shock:.


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

Byron said:


> Yes...sorry, missed those before. H'm, maybe I need a rest:shock:.


lol 
u should go on the chat, it would be different then threads


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

I just got a Co2 system... It was on clearance for $9 so I thought I mine as well get it. Just wanted to let you guys know.

Also, would I be able to add a small school of serpae tetras to my current stocking list (in my sig) or would I have to reduce the amount of bloodfin and/or neon tetras?


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

???


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Have you read the profile of the Serpae Tetra? I think it answers you quite clearly, they are not a normal community fish.


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

Byron said:


> Have you read the profile of the Serpae Tetra? I think it answers you quite clearly, they are not a normal community fish.


Ohh... I really sorry, I meant to read it and just... forgot.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

TFish said:


> Ohh... I really sorry, I meant to read it and just... forgot.


Shame...:shock: 

I may have to ostracize you from the Amazonian fan club:lol:

;-)Byron.


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

Byron said:


> I may have to ostracize you from the Amazonian fan club:lol:


Now *that* would be a shame...;-)


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

I just got a magazine to THATfishPLACE which is only online or in this magazine of whatever, not an lfs... (I didn't even know I was on their mailing list, but it works for me ;-)). Here are their sponge filters:

- Lustar Hydro Sponge Filters
- Hydro Pro Sponge Filters
- Lee's Dual-Action Foam Filter

How often do you have to replace the sponge for these? True, they're only like $10 at the most, but the replacement (actually the first one is the only one with them available to buy) is $4. If you have to replace it every month, doesn't that end up to be a lot? I can't get them at my LFS so I don't know if this makes sense...


Also, their heaters are pretty inexpensive $16.59 - 21.09 for the cheapest ones for 20 gallons. It is the Marineland Visi-Therm Deluxe Submersible Heater, Hydor THEO Heaters, and the Eheim Ebo Jager Aquarium Thermostat Heater.

Any comments about any of the products?


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## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

As far as heaters, The brand is pretty irrelevant in my opinion.

I don't think sponge filters have to be replaced often at all- I would imagine you just replace them when they fall apart... (I'd imagine a year or two?)
Periodically you should probably remove the sponge and squeeze it out into aquarium water to remove the detritus and 'unclog' it.

I would strongly reccomend that you find a sponge filter that can be attached to a powerhead rather than an airstone... Airstones drive CO2 out of the water- a bad thing even if you are supplementing it.

In planted aquaria, there is some speculation that supplemental CO2 does strange things to the substrate bed. I've heard of several people (many of them professionals) that use CO2, have explosive plant growth for a year or two, and then the balance in the aquarium suddenly and inexplicably collapses resulting in a sudden and massive outbreak of algae, usually killing the plants within a week or two.

I don't think there's been any research done on what exactly happens... It's pretty safe to assume that it's some sort of domino affect that stacks silently overtime until the organisms in the aquarium can no longer keep it in check.


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## SinCrisis (Aug 7, 2008)

That fish place is a store in lancaster PA, its known for its huge selection of fish and everything pertaining to fish.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Sponge filters, I agree, they basically never wear out, though I suppose eventually they might start to fall apart. Treat them the same as filter pads in canisters or HOB filters. Rinse them so they don't clog (sponge does clog, as does any filter material intended to trap fine particulate matter); how often depends upon the tank and fish load. Every week during the partial water change works. If live plants are in the tank, they can be rinsed in tap water; if no plants, I would rinse them in tank water to avoid killing the bacteria.

Heaters, my advice is to buy the best. There is probably no equipment more important than the heater. If the filter stops, esp in planted tanks, you have time to repair/replace it before trouble (fish loss). If the heater malfunctions overnight, either overheating or no heating, all the fish could be dead by morning. I speak from experience. And the better heaters have a much better track record for reliability. The higher wattage heaters are the same, they work better. My 150w and 200w heaters have never failed in more than a decade; but I've lost 4-5 50w heaters over the same period when they just failed (some overheated, some didn't heat at all). There are some things where saving a few dollars is not wise, and the heater is one of these. For a 20g, I would get a 100w or 150w. I have read several times here that Stealth heaters are good. Eheim I would trust. My last heater purchase was a Fluval that has the LCD display of the temperature; I like this heater. I've had it for just over a year, as one of two heaters in the 115g, and no issues yet. I got it because of the temp digital display, more reliable than thermometers.

I would not use a powerhead on a sponge filter esp in small (20g) tanks. I have a sponge in my 10g, 20g and 33g tanks, hooked up to an air pump in the 10g and 20g, they work fine. The 33g is an enclosed Eheim sponge filter with its own motor; I believe they don't make these any longer, too bad, a super little filter.


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

Byron said:


> For a 20g, I would get a 100w or 150w. I have read several times here that Stealth heaters are good. Eheim I would trust.


I think I'll go with Eheim, but probably a 75 watt. It (the chart) says that 75 watts is for 16-26 gallons, 100 is for 26-40, 125 is for 40-53, and 150 is for 53-79. I would be concerned with the 125 overheating the tank and would be weary about purchasing a 100...

Any thoughts?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

TFish said:


> I think I'll go with Eheim, but probably a 75 watt. It (the chart) says that 75 watts is for 16-26 gallons, 100 is for 26-40, 125 is for 40-53, and 150 is for 53-79. I would be concerned with the 125 overheating the tank and would be weary about purchasing a 100...
> 
> Any thoughts?


In heater higher wattage does not mean overheating, quite the opposite. The lower the wattage, the harder and longer the heater has to be on to heat the water to the set temperature. And on this point, room temperature also factors in. If you read the fine print on most heaters (reliable ones anyway) they will tell you that the heater will only heat the water if the ambient room temperature is within a specific number of degrees from where you want the tank temp. In other words, if you set up the aquarium in an ice igloo, no heater will heat the water to 78F. The room temp in which the tank sits has to be within a reasonable temperature.

So, back to your heater; if the room is kept at say 68F, and you want the tank to be 78F, a 150w heater will keep the tank at that temperature with considerably less effort than a 50w. Therefore, the 150w heater works better, is more reliable, and lasts longer than the lower rated heater in this situation. This is one reason why 50w heaters fail so often; they have to work too hard and too long to handle the task, and they just wear out.

I have a 150w heater in my 20g. I have a 200w in my 33g. I have two 200w in my larger tanks. My 10g has a 150w because the 75w gave out. All of these tanks are a constant 78F. Today the room is 70F, it's a cool damp (rainy) day outside. As I said earlier, the heater is the single most important piece of equipment in the fish tank; think of having to replace all the fish tomorrow morning if your heater malfunctions overnight. And they can. And fish that are chilled by as little as 5-6 degrees can break out in ich, not to mention the effect this has on their metabolism.


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

Byron said:


> In heater higher wattage does not mean overheating, quite the opposite. The lower the wattage, the harder and longer the heater has to be on to heat the water to the set temperature. And on this point, room temperature also factors in. If you read the fine print on most heaters (reliable ones anyway) they will tell you that the heater will only heat the water if the ambient room temperature is within a specific number of degrees from where you want the tank temp. In other words, if you set up the aquarium in an ice igloo, no heater will heat the water to 78F. The room temp in which the tank sits has to be within a reasonable temperature.
> 
> So, back to your heater; if the room is kept at say 68F, and you want the tank to be 78F, a 150w heater will keep the tank at that temperature with considerably less effort than a 50w. Therefore, the 150w heater works better, is more reliable, and lasts longer than the lower rated heater in this situation. This is one reason why 50w heaters fail so often; they have to work too hard and too long to handle the task, and they just wear out.
> 
> I have a 150w heater in my 20g. I have a 200w in my 33g. I have two 200w in my larger tanks. My 10g has a 150w because the 75w gave out. All of these tanks are a constant 78F. Today the room is 70F, it's a cool damp (rainy) day outside. As I said earlier, the heater is the single most important piece of equipment in the fish tank; think of having to replace all the fish tomorrow morning if your heater malfunctions overnight. And they can. And fish that are chilled by as little as 5-6 degrees can break out in ich, not to mention the effect this has on their metabolism.


Ok, then I guess I'll get a 150 watt. (It's only $2 more)


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## TFish (Aug 15, 2010)

As for the filters, I plan to get the Lustar. I will get two IIs, and will keep 1 tube with 2 sponges on it, so I can keep it cycled for the quarintine. Should I get an extra sponge or do you think I'd be fine for now?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

TFish said:


> As for the filters, I plan to get the Lustar. I will get two IIs, and will keep 1 tube with 2 sponges on it, so I can keep it cycled for the quarintine. Should I get an extra sponge or do you think I'd be fine for now?


I'm not familiar with this particular brand/model, but I can't imagine a true sponge needing replacement for years and years. Sounds like a gimmick to sell sponges by the manufacturer, same as filter media--replace every two weeks sort of nonsense.:roll:


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## CaliforniaFishkeeper (Jun 29, 2010)

I use the Hydro Pro sponge filters and they work really well.


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