# Tank Level Variation



## G9 (Jul 30, 2008)

using a book for guidance, I have determined that most of the small tropical, livebearing fish I am interested in generally swim in all levels of the tank, suggesting possible congestion and disharmony. I am wondering if my fears are exaggerated, ad if not, can be resolved by the pacemen of many plants, bogwood, and other such natural or artificial decora.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Would depend on what particular livebearers you are interested in. Many can co-exist. Many will also eat their young if they are not removed or provided with suitable hiding areas.Another important consideration in my view as well as others is, You will want to have two or three females to each male . In that way the female is not stressed from two or three males trying to breed with one female. Some livebearers can also crossbreed with others swords, platys and molly's for example, guppys and Endlers I have heard can also crossbreed. You may wish to set up a grow out tank maybe10gallons to place the young that you wish to keep or sell to mature in. That way they don't get eaten. Livebearers can make lots of babys so in my view some measure of control will be needed to prevent too many.Hope some of this helps.


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## G9 (Jul 30, 2008)

thanks for the input. I was considering all the common ones, such as several molly varieties, guppies, swordtails, platys... Maybe a halfbeak, if I can find one. I was thinking of throwing in a small school of neon tetras as well, though their water pH range is not exactly intersecting with the rest... I've seen these species together in many photos. I was also considering a larger, herbivorous fish but the size in itself might prove dangerous. Some algae eaters would be thrown in as well. The tank would be 75 gallons, up from the current ten (this could be used as the breeding tank). How many fish could that hold, based on the species listed?


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

I may not be the best person to ask. When I think numbers of fish I also think Fish poop which= ammonia. Were it me I would prolly put no more than 30. I would also see that filter was able to move at LEAST twice the number of gallons the tank holds. Some will no doubt disagree but considering possible baby fish along with the others this is my humble opinion.


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## girlofgod (Aug 22, 2006)

i havent been around in awhile, but it used to be a rule of thumb, no more than 1 inch of fish per gallon of water. all those livebearers will fool you cuz they are relatively small, so you think you can shove a ton in a tank that large, but in 1-2 months time, they will have multiplied severely. so i suggest starting off with perhaps 2 males, and 2-3 females per each male, so that puts you between 4-6 females that will probably start having fry within 2 months, if your water conditions allow. 

i agree with the filtration comment, I recommend having a great filter, but make sure you take the neccessary precautions for raising fry, if that is the direction you choose to go. you will need some type of sponge to cover the end of the filter. what type of filtration are you considering? I recommend a rena filstar xp(3?) if you havent decided yet. 8) i have a 47 gal column tank and my filter keeps that baby going strong! 
and if you don't already know, the parents of the fry WILL EAT the fry, so you will need some way to separate them until they are older. from my experience anyways... :shock: 

as far as types of fish go, swordtails are my fav LB fish, and mollies and guppies are also fun. I am not familiar with halfbeaks, so I can't say. i believe neons would be fine with a group of livebearers, but I'm not sure about the bigger fish. I kept angels with my LB, and eventually all the smaller fish dissappeared! LOL 

i wouldnt worry too much about where the fish swim in the tank, if you will be doing LB primarily. and lots of vegetation and good places to hide will be important for the fry if you don't use a breeding tank. 

sorry for the novel...hope this helps!


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## G9 (Jul 30, 2008)

1077 said:


> I may not be the best person to ask. When I think numbers of fish I also think Fish poop which= ammonia. Were it me I would prolly put no more than 30. I would also see that filter was able to move at LEAST twice the number of gallons the tank holds. Some will no doubt disagree but considering possible baby fish along with the others this is my humble opinion.


Hmmm... yeah, the baby fish would exponentially increase the population, wouldn't it? I'd probably keep several of the fry (not sure about the life expectancies of the species I've listed), but most of them would go off to this pet store I know.



girlofgod said:


> i havent been around in awhile, but it used to be a rule of thumb, no more than 1 inch of fish per gallon of water. all those livebearers will fool you cuz they are relatively small, so you think you can shove a ton in a tank that large, but in 1-2 months time, they will have multiplied severely. so i suggest starting off with perhaps 2 males, and 2-3 females per each male, so that puts you between 4-6 females that will probably start having fry within 2 months, if your water conditions allow.


The multiplication factor is something to worry about, isn't it? I was thinking single pairs as opposed to a harem of females for the male. For example, a pair of three distinct variations of molly (being the same species they may interbreed and fight for mates, but I noticed currently that the male black molly in my tank prefers the female black molly, as opposed to the silver female in the tank [who doesn't have a partner]... naive observation?), a pair of guppies, a pair of swordtails, a pair of platy's, several varying pairs of the above, the halfbeak pair, an algae eater... 

How large do molly's grow? My handbook says 4in, but I can't imagine that. I'd also like to know what are signs of labor, or whether I have to guess the time of fry ejection.



girlofgod said:


> i agree with the filtration comment, I recommend having a great filter, but make sure you take the neccessary precautions for raising fry, if that is the direction you choose to go. you will need some type of sponge to cover the end of the filter. what type of filtration are you considering? I recommend a rena filstar xp(3?) if you havent decided yet. 8) i have a 47 gal column tank and my filter keeps that baby going strong!
> and if you don't already know, the parents of the fry WILL EAT the fry, so you will need some way to separate them until they are older. from my experience anyways... :shock:


I currently have a 10-*30* gallon version of this 3-tier filter for my 10 gal. Could I use the 110 gallon version for my 75gal tank? I haven't purchased anything related to the 75gal tank yet.



girlofgod said:


> as far as types of fish go, swordtails are my fav LB fish, and mollies and guppies are also fun. I am not familiar with halfbeaks, so I can't say. i believe neons would be fine with a group of livebearers, but I'm not sure about the bigger fish. I kept angels with my LB, and eventually all the smaller fish dissappeared! LOL


Yeah... maybe I'll keep away from the bigger fish. I actually got Neon Tetras before, 5, and they were pecked to death by a rather troublesome Dalmatian molly that I returned to the store (he had been picking on the others). As for the others, I guess they'll do fine together, being closely classified anyway.



girlofgod said:


> i wouldnt worry too much about where the fish swim in the tank, if you will be doing LB primarily. and lots of vegetation and good places to hide will be important for the fry if you don't use a breeding tank.


The 10 gallon tank I have currently would turn into the breeding tank, along with a breeding trap. I was considering this. To my understanding, this device keeps the fry inside the larger chamber, correct, not allowing them to swim out into the enclosing tank? 



girlofgod said:


> sorry for the novel...hope this helps!


No apologies... this will help. Thank you.


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## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

The problem with keeping pairs instead of the suggested ratio of 2-3 females per male is that the male will constantly harass the female because he wants to breed all the time. Male livebearers have been known to harass females to death in this situation. Also, males of the same species (such as the male mollies) will view one another as competition, so having a higher male-to-female ratio can lead to violence amongst the males. Mollies will definitely reach four inches, as will swordtails. Platies and guppies stay smaller.


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## G9 (Jul 30, 2008)

I see... would the larger mollies and swordtails pick on the smaller fish, especially the 1in neon tetra school?

This is my prospective lineup:
9 mollies (3 variations) 36in total
6 swordtails (2 variations) 24in total
3 guppies (1 variation) 3.75in total
7 neon tetra 7in total
1 generic algae eater 5in total
1 black widow tetra 2in total
77.75in total, a little over the 1in per gallon standard. I have a 10gal tank especially for fry, and connections to transfer them to once they have grown and crowded the tank. In the case of this tank, what kind of decors, plants, oxygen equipment, and filters would you recommend?


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## girlofgod (Aug 22, 2006)

yes, i agree with batman. the male will most likely chase the female to death. you should get more than one female per male! spead the love! LOL anways...movin on...

the only thing about the fry separator that you showed me is that most of them are made of plastic, preventing normal water flow for the fry. this can be bad, as there will be so many fry that ammonia will build up and most likely kill them. if you can find a net one I would suggest using it if that's the route you want to go. or, you could set up your 10 gallon as you said, and use it as a fry tank. when your females look like they are getting close, move them into the fry tank until they have given birth, and then move them back to the main tank. that way the babies arent in harms way with the other fish. =) 

also, you should realize that your LBs will most likely inbreed as well. molliesxswords etc. 

i have sand as my substrate in my 47 gal tank, and i love it. very low maintenance for me. i use silk plants, which don't look quite as fake as fake plants, but you might consider a planted tank. =) i recommend a canister filter, as its in my personal experience that HOB havent worked as well for my needs. i love my rena filstar xp2, and i couldnt recommend it more! if you are planning to stock your tank to capacity, i recommend going with a larger filter than your tank needs. also, I prefer the natural look to the fantasy look. i like plants, rocks, driftwood, etc for decor. you might try researching what the natural habitat for mollies, guppies, swords, etc is. 

and on a last note, I don't recommend stocking your tank to full capacity right from the get go. i suggest starting with a smaller group, and letting it grow in time. if you start off with all the fish your tank can handle, what will you do with all the fry? you mentioned keeping some, and it would put your tank way past what it needs to properly maintain water parameters. 

just some food for thought. =)


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## G9 (Jul 30, 2008)

girlofgod said:


> yes, i agree with batman. the male will most likely chase the female to death. you should get more than one female per male! spead the love! LOL anways...movin on...
> 
> the only thing about the fry separator that you showed me is that most of them are made of plastic, preventing normal water flow for the fry. this can be bad, as there will be so many fry that ammonia will build up and most likely kill them. if you can find a net one I would suggest using it if that's the route you want to go. or, you could set up your 10 gallon as you said, and use it as a fry tank. when your females look like they are getting close, move them into the fry tank until they have given birth, and then move them back to the main tank. that way the babies arent in harms way with the other fish. =)
> 
> ...


Yeah... I'll put the breeding trap in the 10 gal, the mother in the breeding trap, and let the fry go into the chamber. The mother will then be placed back into the main tank and the fry will be released into the 10gal. I'm wondering what the signs of labor are so I can get the mom in in time, and also how long the life expectancy of these guys are.

Ouch, the Rena's pretty expensive. Not sure if it's a website glitch, but Petsmart is reading that all models, from xp1 to xp4, cost $190. I guess that's cheap compared to what's out there, though.

Yeah... I'll see what happens. Thanks for the input.


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## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

I just set up my first canister filter a few days ago, and I've gotta say it's nice. The aquarium in question is a 29 gallon. I'm running a HOB filter with both sponge material and filter floss. I put play sand in the tank and I'll be honest - I didn't rinse it as well as I really should have. I had the power filter running for about 24 hours on the tank but the water was still quite cloudy. However, after having the Fluval 204 running on the tank for about two hours, the water was crystal clear. I can't vouch for this filter completely as I've read some negative reviews of it and I've only had it running for a couple of days.

I still think a combination of filtration methods is the best way to go. Sure, you can buy a huge canister filter that's rated to cover your whole tank, but getting a smaller canister and using it in conjunction with other filters would be even better.

Also, there are much cheaper alternatives to Petsmart. Their online prices are generally better than what you'd pay in the store, but there are online-only retailers that are cheaper still. Aquariumguys.com and drsfosterandsmith.com are two good sites. Also, if the hefty price of canisters gives you a bit of sticker shock, consider looking at craigslist. Sometimes people sell equipment for really good prices there.


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## herefishy (Dec 14, 2006)

iamntbatman said:


> I still think a combination of filtration methods is the best way to go. Sure, you can buy a huge canister filter that's rated to cover your whole tank, but getting a smaller canister and using it in conjunction with other filters would be even better.


This is called "layered filtration". There is a pretty good thread about it already on the site. The thread gives a basic explanation of the concept. You will need to weed through a bit of stocking ideas, but it finally does get down to some basics of advanced filtration.


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## G9 (Jul 30, 2008)

Alright, thanks all for your input... I'll keep everything in mind when I make my purchases.


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## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

Neons and platys can co-exist well, mine do at least. The three stooges (my mickey mouse platys) are rambunctious and made my neons nervous at first. They tended to hang out in the back corners at the bottom, the platys would chase one another mostly in the mid and upper reaches of the tank towards the center. However after my neons seemed to figure out that while spastic and obnoxious the platys were harmless and now swim freely in the tank, getting out of the way when the stooges come barreling through.


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