# New tank (Big Pics) & Could always use advice



## Andrewprime1 (Jan 4, 2008)

Hey Guys, I'm Andrew. I work at a fish store, and I have just started my first salt water tank. I know a good deal from work, but i mainly do freshwater stuff, so my salt water knowledge is lacking.



















So as of today my tank is 7 days old and looking good! It is a ten gallon tank that I used to use for freshwater. I have a crappy top fin heater, an aqua-clear 30 filter, and korllia (sp?) nano power head, plus 10 lbs. live florida crushed coral, and 14 lbs. live rock. 

Side view...









I tested water about three days ago and most everything to worry about was at zero. I have 1 coral, a zoanthid?, that my boss said would be fine in the new tank, and I got it the day I had my water tested.

It is all shut up right now because I had just turned the light on.









so any tips are much appreciated. What I really want to know is should i make a sump/fuge for my tank. I was thinking just a little 2 1/2 gallon tank from work would work. I know it isn't really necessary, but it would be fun and add water volume...
The problem is that i don't want to spend much more $$ and the pumps would cost a bit. So my other plan would be to turn my hang on back filter into a mini fuge with live rock and some plant matter, I have heard that filter media needs to be washed daily and I dont feel like doing that so this would be a cool option. What do you guys think?


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## crazy4fish (Dec 31, 2007)

i dont know much about saltwater so i cant help you but i think the tank looks pretty good! :thumbsup:


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## caferacermike (Oct 3, 2006)

Nice Hydor, and in a 10g no less. See folks it's not impossible....

'd lower those 2 large pieces of Fiji you have supported by the Tonga branching so they don't fall and crack the glass. Put the Tonga on top of the Fiji if space is limited.

Have fun with the new tank.


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## Andrewprime1 (Jan 4, 2008)

yep, completely possible, in fact Hydor nano rocks way better then anything else i've used. So i took out the sponge in my filter and put some live rock in, left in the carbon and the bacteria things, at least until I get a light for it, then i'll add some plant material.

Also I really need help with my zoo, it wasn't open when I took pics last night, then this morning after the light had been on for a few hours, a few where open, but looked sickly, and the rest are closed. then the power went out when I was at work to day. when I got home they were all closed. My boss said I should point my power-head at it. I did that, and they are still closed, so I will try and feed it, any tips???? Up-dates soon.


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## caferacermike (Oct 3, 2006)

Honestly I think you'd have to leave the rock of zoos in your driveway out of the water for about 3 months to kill them. They are super hardy and may not be accustomed to "traveling" and being moved around. You might lose a few heads but some will remain. They reproduce like crazy. Give them time, could take as long as 2 weeks. I have a colony that stays open for about 2 days and then closes for 3 weeks. It's been that way for about a year.


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## MattD (Apr 25, 2007)

Maybe you shouldn't stock anything, especially corals after only 7 days. :roll: Honestly, like it's the same concept as freshwater, but only needs to be followed more strictly. 

Also, don't use the tonga to support the large pieces of rock, it looks awkward, and if the weight should ever shift and the large rocks fall, you're risking the lives of your livestock and potentially cracking the glass.

Nice chunk of zoos, and I also use the same powerhead, I love it. Also, what media have you got in the filter?


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## caferacermike (Oct 3, 2006)

Now Matt here is where we get in trouble with the LFS again. This poster works in a shop and his boss sent him home with the coral after 7 days. I'm hoping the boss had the theory that since they used liverock and live sand that maybe the tank was somewhat cycled. Here we have another case where the LFS should have known better than to send the coral home to a new tank. This only enforces the behavior unto the employee and thus becomes the "standard" practice to send corals and fish along with a new tank sale. The real problem with this is that the coral is at the house now, now our members need to offer the best advice possible to help the acclimation of this new acquisition. I would recommend that no new corals or fish be added until the zoas open and then only after testing to see that the cycle is complete.


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## MattD (Apr 25, 2007)

Indeed. 

I find it mind boggling, and unfortunate (but not surprising, tbh) that 'the boss' allowed this to happen. You would think a manager would know the most and be the best person to give advice. Judging from a ton of posts that happen on this forum daily (literally), and from personal experience, _most_ (NOT all, make no mistake) fish store employees know jack s**t about fish. Well, that's not true, they know they live in water I suppose.

I'm sorry if I sound offensive but I just get really mad when I hear about these n00b errors made by alleged professionals (not you btw, you're still learning about SW, your boss is the idiot imo). ARGHHHH!!!


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## Andrewprime1 (Jan 4, 2008)

Yeah, I know, she isn't the main boss at my work though. The Polyps all opened again today, and I checked my water several times and it says 0 for everything bad really. Everything I ever read said wait for the tank to be fully cycled before adding anything. Hey, it couyld have turned out a lot worse really, the zoo's are fine and my tank is cycles fully now.

About the precariously placed LR, would adding another chunk cause any kind of spike?

In the Filter I have a kind of Sump/Fuge going, there is live rock, carbon, and bio max ceramic things... But now that everything is settled im adding a light to it then I will throw some chaeto in there, I think I will leave the carbon in there, or should I leave the sponge? 

Anymore tips? 
MattD
I read your post for your new tank. Did your torch coral die, or did you save it? Do you think I could handle one, in a while, light wise?


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## Andrewprime1 (Jan 4, 2008)

So I did a 25% water change today, and while I was in there I rearranged my live rock. Now it seem like I don't have enough, but I think that it might just be because it looks different, and I'm not used to it.

Front View









Little cave & flat spot, good for a chili in the distant future


















Im going to frag a Zeina next time I'm at work, ill post pics when I bring it home.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

First thing I caught here is that you said test results come out at 0 for anything bad... what exactly did you test for?
If nitrates are at 0 then your tank is not cycled... also, have you tested for calcium yet? That should be between 400 - 500, especially if you are keeping corals. When you said your coral looked sickly, that was the first thing that jumped to my attention.
A new tank is really, like the others said, not the place to put any animals... but, since it is done... the best thing to do now would be to wait a while yet before adding more of anything outside of live rock.
Yes, live rock can spike ammonia, which will then spike nitrite and nitrate as it breaks down. There is typically an amount of what is called "die off" that every piece of rock can/will go through when it has been moved from one environment to another. The differences in water quality will affect things growing in and on the rock, and some things will likely die each time it's moved. This should always be expected to be safe.

If you post test results here, we can help you to learn how to read them and what each type of balance means. 
In all my years of fish keeping and working in the store, and now independent of the store... the biggest problem I've seen with saltwater aquariums is lack of patience or impulse buying. A 10 gallon is not the easiest thing to keep stable, and the faster you jump into it the more out of control it is likely to get as time goes on. Once out of control, it won't take much to crash it and risk losing everything... not to mention the mess of cleaning it up to start over. Patience is so very important. 
Without live sand at the bottom you have less biological filtration going on in there. That is something that can still be fixed when you do a water change, and from years of keeping many different sizes and using both substrates and combination of the two, the smaller the tank the more important it becomes to use sand. As your tank matures the crushed coral will require gravel vacs to get the muck out. There are stages of algae that every saltwater tank will go through during the cycling process... have you experienced these yet?
Also, if waste levels or nutrients build too high, or if circulation isn't enough, cyano blooms can/will hit, and can be a lot harder to get rid of with the crushed coral substrate. 
If you consider replacing it with sand, it's easily done with a water change, and you can use the crushed coral in your filter to help keep calcium levels up. I've done this many times, never had a problem in any size tank. If you do a manual siphon, suck up the coral until most of it is gone and drained into the bucket. If water fills the bucket too quickly, simply put it back into the tank to continue. Slowly pour the live sand into the tank, but don't spread it around as you pour. Pour it all into one place then use your hand to push it where you need it, and if you do this around those base pieces of rock it will help to anchor them. (few people add rock before sand, not realizing that you can anchor your bottom rocks to make building easier and more stable) The tank will be cloudy for about 12 - 24 hrs, but let it settle on its own. This won't hurt any of the animals in the tank, but watch for any type of ammonia spike, and simply do a small water change to help if needed.
Many options for animals in that size of a tank will need sand at the bottom. The typical fishes safe for a 10 gallon tank tend to be things like shrimp gobys, snails, crabs, and other inverts. Crushed coral can cause major injury to any bottom dwelling animals, and shrimps, crabs, etc will have a harder time finding food in it. 

It seems to me that your boss should be here learning this stuff too. I hope you are at least able to teach her what you learn. The store I worked at didn't have the issues with uneducated staff, they required us to attend seminars and training sessions on everything, and it was constant. I have noticed that over the past 2 years a lot of senior staff members have quit due to lack of pay and unbearable hours... and since they've hired a lot of new people, their knowledge base is way down. I've even helped some of my former customers when I've heard one of the newbies giving bad or inaccurate advice since I left. There are 2 problems why the stores employ such uneducated people... #1 and foremost, it takes a very long time (years) to train someone to be able to handle it. The time at work is split 3 ways between helping customers, taking care of what's there, and learning to answer all of the important questions they should be able to handle if a customer asks. This isn't stuff that's learned overnight and it costs too much to hire someone already educated. #2, many stores don't have the time or the money to spend on this type of education, and there are way too many out there owned by people who they, themselves, don't know it either. If the owner knows little or nothing, then anyone who knows anything knows more... so makes a good employee for a small wage. A good way to tell what you're dealing with is to study this stuff yourself first, then ask those same questions to the people you will rely on for help. If they can give you accurate answers, you will know how much to trust... if they can't... then you know who's just after your money or blowing smoke!


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## Andrewprime1 (Jan 4, 2008)

No, im sorry I wasn't clear, My nitrates did spike, but everything is at acceptable levels for a fully cycled tank, and now that my tank is even older (by like 1 week, lol) Its doing very well. 

First of all, thank you Betababy for all the help, But in my bosses defense however, she had been helping monitor my tanks water quality all week before she sent me home with the zoo, and, as someone said, zoos are super hardy, and she made sure thats what I grabbed, not a candy or anything crazy like that. She is very good at what she does, and the polyp is doing much better now. It's wierd, polyps dont need a huge current, right? Well mine wouldn't open until I put it right under my filter, and in the stream of my Koralia?!? Looks great now but WTF? 

But I do have a few questions If you are in the mood to answer.
1. My sand bed insn't that deep, so could I add a finer sand type sand over my crushed live? Im thinking non-living sand that my live florida crushed will seed. Would that work out?
2. I have read up on what to feed corals, but I would like to know, what do people here feed THIER corals, I read a really weird recipe on about.com, but I want to know what you think first. Also, I have being giving a half cap full of Reef Builder Reef Plus, by Seachem twice a week, so three total time now. I now that soon I will need to start adding Ca especially because I have a few people offering me some unwanted frags
Thanks again

:edit:.
I forgot, I have had my algae problems yes, they were not terrible, but I got some greenish brown algae all over the sides, plus detritus on the crushed coral. I have done one water change so far, last sunday, 25% and I used my siphon to get the detritus from the bottom.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Andrewprime1 said:


> No, im sorry I wasn't clear, My nitrates did spike, but everything is at acceptable levels for a fully cycled tank, and now that my tank is even older (by like 1 week, lol) Its doing very well.
> 
> First of all, thank you Betababy for all the help, But in my bosses defense however, she had been helping monitor my tanks water quality all week before she sent me home with the zoo, and, as someone said, zoos are super hardy, and she made sure thats what I grabbed, not a candy or anything crazy like that. She is very good at what she does, and the polyp is doing much better now. It's wierd, polyps dont need a huge current, right? Well mine wouldn't open until I put it right under my filter, and in the stream of my Koralia?!? Looks great now but WTF?
> 
> ...


Keep in mind that with the crushed coral, you're not going to get the same biological function as in a sand bed, so it will need to be gravel vac'd regularly wherever you can reach. Even adding a bag of actual live sand, it will still make the bio function weaker, and the substrate harder to clean. I really try hard to discourage people from using crushed coral in a reef tank... for all fish it's ok, but reef gets to be problematic later once the tank is established. Long term, it tends to result in tank crashes. Nitrate levels get out of control, algae blooms, and drop in pH are common. If you want the crushed coral for the Calcium benefit, it's much safer to add a small pouch of it to the filter instead.


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## Andrewprime1 (Jan 4, 2008)

Ok so I have decided to add 10 more pounds live sand, nothing to fine, but not Florida Crushed, I don't think I will have any problem with it. I have also added some plant material to my hang on back sump to remove phosphates.

I did a water change today and all went well, my levels are perfect, 0 nitrate and nitrites, Ca fine, but will start adding some more soon, ammonia 0 as well. So I added a Zenia frag. Will post pics soon, when it inflates.

Question, Why do my Zoos need so much flow?


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Andrewprime1 said:


> Ok so I have decided to add 10 more pounds live sand, nothing to fine, but not Florida Crushed, I don't think I will have any problem with it. I have also added some plant material to my hang on back sump to remove phosphates.
> 
> I did a water change today and all went well, my levels are perfect, 0 nitrate and nitrites, Ca fine, but will start adding some more soon, ammonia 0 as well. So I added a Zenia frag. Will post pics soon, when it inflates.
> 
> Question, Why do my Zoos need so much flow?


How much plant material did you add? Is there a light source over it? Don't expect plant matter in the hang on filter/sump to remove all phosphate... it would take a large amount of plants and a small amount of phosphate in a small tank before the plants would make much difference.

As for the water flow with zoa's... higher circulation helps to clear waste away from the animal (and from between the polyps) and also ensures that food flows over/past them.

If your nitrates is reading 0 then your tank is not cycled. Anytime you have a cycled tank with animals in it, there is going to be some trace of nitrates. If CA level is where it should be, then there is no need to add it unless it begins to drop. Too much CA is just as bad as not enough. Optimal would be 400 - 500.


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## Andrewprime1 (Jan 4, 2008)

Yeah, of there is light, its about a baseball worth of chaeto. Im not expecting it to remove all my Phos. but i'm not having to much of a problem with it yet anyway.

My tank's cycled though, I have had nitrates & nitrites in the past and they dropped to very low levels, and usually stay there, I had just done a water change however. Even MattD says he's N's are zero... Mine barley register on the test, so around 0 at least.

For the Ca, I'm not terribly sure exactly where it is in my tank, but between 300-400. Nothing is really using up Ca that fast so I am sure ill be fine for a while. 

Now the one question I do have is this, It may be because my tank is still to new or my params are off, which I doubt because my params are reasonable. Today my new Zenia decided to commit suicide. It popped off from its stem. Any tips, I think I may be able to revive it...? I have it trapped underneath of a small piece of LR that I was fragging it on, and the bottom of the tank in hopes of getting it to stick to that. I bet it was my tank.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Andrewprime1 said:


> Yeah, of there is light, its about a baseball worth of chaeto. Im not expecting it to remove all my Phos. but i'm not having to much of a problem with it yet anyway.
> 
> My tank's cycled though, I have had nitrates & nitrites in the past and they dropped to very low levels, and usually stay there, I had just done a water change however. Even MattD says he's N's are zero... Mine barley register on the test, so around 0 at least.
> 
> ...


I would strongly suggest checking to find out for sure where your calcium levels are. A reading of 300 or even 350 is going to wipe out corals quick. It needs to be maintained between 400 - 500, and if it's off "for a while" your animals will struggle and/or die because of it. 
Ad for the N's... remember, *any* trace of nitrite is toxic, and will mean that the tank is nearing the end of the cycle, but isn't quite there yet. Any nirtites combined with low calcium can do a horrible amount of damage, and the worst part is that without the water testing, there is no way to know! This isn't something you can "see" just by looking into the tank.


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## SKAustin (Aug 1, 2006)

Andrew, I know it can be disheartening sometimes to find out that you may not have been doing things the right, or best, way. Dawn is a wealth of information and has a solid background in the hobby. It will behoove both you, and the future of your reef, to give her advice strong consideration.

If I might add a suggestion. You are investing in a hobby that is not only very rewarding, but can also be very tempermental, and can be quite cost prohibitive. Please, for the sake of the animals you are trying to keep, heed the advice of those seasoned hobbyists that are willing to help. Take the time and consideration to do things properly, so that your experiences may be fruitful, and not riddled with frustration and disappointment.

As a first step, I would like to see you invest in all of the reef necessary test kits (if you haven't already) and rather than posing adjectives to describe your tank params, post solid figures. It shows that you are serious about the hobby, and serious about wanting to see your reef succeed. Trust me, None of us here want to see anyone here fail. We're here to help you all succeed.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

SKAustin said:


> As a first step, I would like to see you invest in all of the reef necessary test kits (if you haven't already) and rather than posing adjectives to describe your tank params, post solid figures. It shows that you are serious about the hobby, and serious about wanting to see your reef succeed.


And it shows us that you really want our help and that we're not wasting our time in writing details for someone who isn't really interested.


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## Andrewprime1 (Jan 4, 2008)

You guys are right, I will pick up a test kit tomorrow. Thanks so much for your help.


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## Andrewprime1 (Jan 4, 2008)

Ok, got a test kit today. We've got...
No3-5
No2-0
Buffer-200
pH-8.2, 8.3
And I got a Ca test too, and the levels are at
340-375 with nothing using up to much Ca in my tank anyway.


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## SKAustin (Aug 1, 2006)

If you dont mind my asking Andrew, What Brand kits are you using? And what type of kits are they? I use Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Inc. (aka API or Doc Wellfish). I've been using them for years with little to complain about, though some of the tests can be a bit difficult to read accurately.
At bare minimum, I would recommend regular (bi-daily) testing of the following throughout the first few months. then continue periodic (weekly)testing thereafter.

Ammonia
Nitrite
Nitrate
Phosphate
PH
Calcium
KH (Carbonate hardness)

You may also want to think about additives. While much of the bio available minerals and chemicals are supplimented via water changes, These essential elements are not only used up by the animals you house, but also via protien skimming. You should research your animals thoroughly and see what additives will benefit your environment. I have a softies dominated tank with a few LPS corals, so I dose Strontium and Molybdenum, Iodine, and Essential Elements. I suppliment Calcium and Alkalinity with B-ionic 2 part and also via kalkwasser top-off water.

Rmember, you should test for any additives you add to the tank.


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## Andrewprime1 (Jan 4, 2008)

Not at all, I am using Mardel 5-1 test strips, and today at work I used Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Saltwater Liquid Calcium Test Kit


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## MattD (Apr 25, 2007)

I'll be the first to say the inevitable:

test strips are not reliable.

 

Try to use the liquid test kits your work uses. They will be far more accurate.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

I have to agree with the last 2 posts, but I need to add one thing that was missed. If your Calcium level is at 340 - 375 (you should be able to get a more accurate reading than this) then your calcium level is a bit too low to sustain your animals in that tank. A healthy calcium level should read between 400 - 500 (450 is a good place to be). 
Too much or too little calcium can be deadly to *all* of your animals.


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## Andrewprime1 (Jan 4, 2008)

Hey guys, its been a while. 
So here is an update + some pics

Levels
No2 10
No3 0
Buffer- 270
Ph- 8.3

Ca- Have had no problem with. hasn't slipped from 450 due to weekly water changes, and small tank.

In the beginning I was having problems with Ca, but I was reading the tests wrong.

Stock list.
Finger Leather and small frag
Green Plate
Green eyed Cup coral
Purple Zoas
Pulsing Zenia




Here are my pics


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## Andrewprime1 (Jan 4, 2008)

umm bump? Any suggestions, plus maybe a cool fish I could add, I like Clown Gobies and I read that a green clown gby would work in my tank, but may nip at corals. What do you guys think about that, and could you make other suggestions

I also have a peppermint shrimp in there.


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## Andrewprime1 (Jan 4, 2008)

So I know no one cares about this but her is an update to my tank 

For all the newbies. Shoot for the stars, try everything you want in your tank, but research it first, and for god sake, get you research from many different locations before making your final decision. Patience is the object in this hobby, and with enough patience, your tank will be amazing!
( for good places to find info, google these terms)
Wetwebmedia.com
Melvesreef
Garf.org
reefcentral
asira.com
great sites, really

pics from a few months ago...








cup coral








Some zoos








Huge open brain

















Emerald Mythrix Crab








Full tank shot








Branching montipora sps coral.
(lived FINE, until i dropped my glass lid in there and broke it. Its still fine though, just smaller)

So I built a little 2.5 gallon fuge for my ten gallon tank. It is ridicules I know, but its almost kind of cute really. I drilled a little platform into my stand for it and it came out uber strong. I raised it up of the stand with some stands and a little bit of wood for support.










I have it hooked up so the the water comes in via j siphon, and leaves through a jerry rigged PVC system pumped by a via aqua 360.


















I run a filter sock every once and a while, especially the day I do a water change to help catch debris. Once I added this my 'trates dropped down to about 5ppm



And now her is my tank, more recent shots.
Since the previous pictures I added a awesome light.
its a mogul based 175w metal halide running a 1500k RX bulb on a magnetic ballast.

Oh and a stock list would probably help you guys.

Fish
Carpenter's Flasher Wrasse
True Perc Clown Fish

Inverts
Serpent Banded Sea Star
Emerald Mythrix(sp?) Crab
Spotted Porcelain Crab
3 hermits
3 snails

Corals
Chalice Coral (lps)
Frogspawn
Radioactive Green Candycane
Huge open Brain Coral
8 head Acan
Maze Brain Coral
Zenia
Assortment of zoos
assortment of Corallimorpharians 
branching monti

Now here are the halide pics 




























































































Ok, now I never come on this site anymore. Here is what pisses me off.
When I first came on, it was almost s if anything I asked wasn't answered, just the little questions.

I want to let you know though. From what little I knew then, and how much I know now I can tell you that in both times I KNEW my tank was cycle when I added things. I didn't rush anything and it was 2 months before I put a fish in. 

Beta Baby, crushed coral is working for me just fine. You don't need a anaerobic section in your tank for it to function.... Having plenty of nitrifying bacteria and doing weekly water changes is fine. Oh and you pushed that my Ca was screwed up a little too hard. A two week old tank with 14lbs of live rock and 10 pounds of crushed coral? Oh and its a nano too,why would you even think of ca? Sorry maybe on a bigger tank baby. Wow, how many years have you been doing this again?
you took things out of context betta, and you seemed to twist what I had to say.

Boy I am glad I found a good website (reefcentral) cause you guys had me thinking that any lps in a PC lit tank was pushing it. So now ban me or delete this post but know this. I set up my tank and it looks good now. I have never killed anything in there, and it was technically called established two months ago.
peace guys.

oh, and enjoy the picture of the zoos that I put in my week old, CYCLED, tank, they are still around


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