# Where to buy fish - LFS or petsmart?



## iamgray (Jul 16, 2010)

this might be a dumb thing to post about, because I have pretty much answered my own question just by going by my gut... but i'm so new to fish keeping that I just want to talk about it and see what others wth more experience have to say. I apologize if this topic is discussed elsewhere on this site... I looked around a bit and couldn't find enough to answer my question...

I have heard so many horror stories about the horrible conditions in aquariums in big box pet stores. I don't know a lot about what I should be looking for when judging good conditions vs. bad conditions, but I feel like the fish at PetSmart in my city look like they're cared for a lot better than the ones at the LFS I visited today (which has been highly recommended by a few of my friends who have either had fish in the past, or still do have fish).

At PetSmart, the tanks look clean, there are never any dead fish in the tanks, the fish look healthy and energetic, and there are always employees doing some sort of maintenance on the tanks. The plants that they sell are kept separately from the fish. The staff is always friendly and fairly knowledgeable, and if they don't know the answer to a question they don't pretend to know - they always find a coworker/manager to double check and make sure they don't give wrong information (and I have gotten to a computer and done my own research to answer questions I asked to double check the advice they gave, and have never found them to be wrong).

Now today I went to the LFS and was completely unsatisfied. The tanks were scummy, and while a lot of the fish looked healthy, there were also quite a few who looked barely alive, just kinda floated around listlessly. And the guy seemed pretty detached/unconcerned when I asked him questions about which fish to put in my tank once I'm ready to add more fish. I told him I have one female guppy, and that I think she might be pregnant and don't want to put fish in the tank that might eat the fry when they hatch. His reply was "There will be so many that you won't even care if most of them get eaten." His reply made me feel like as far as he's concerned, fish aren't animals... they're just a business and if a bunch of baby guppies get eaten, then so be it. And when I was asking what fish would be good to add, he never asked me a single question about my tank. He just started listing. Didn't even ask what size tank... he literally asked me NOTHING.

I think the attitude about fry being eaten is what bothered me the most... am I being too oversensitive, or reading too much into his attitude? Is my inexperience/the fact that I've never had fish before the only reason why I want to see the fry live? Are they really that expendable? And am I right to continue to support a big box pet store (because just because THIS location is great, in a roundabout way I am still supporting other locations that are NOT so great)?


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## soccermatt (Dec 14, 2009)

I would look specifically at what fish you are thinking of getting and then choose the ones that seem to be in better health, or with better living conditions.


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## GoneFishin (Jul 19, 2010)

Wow sounds like you had a poor experience today. It's sad that a LFS would be so blunt about things, but like you said it is their business, and they probably just want the sale. I am going to my local petsmart tomorrow to look at the tanks, I do have to admit that when I am there (dog supplies) I also see employees constantly doing something with the tanks. To me, just keeping the dead fish out of the tanks and secluding the ones with issues speaks more to me about the company and how the fish will be. I had a post saying I wouldn't buy from petsmart/petco but I may have to go back on my word, I'm also going to swing by a LFS tomorrow and see how things look. I know I haven't helped your situation, but with how you described the LFS owner/worker, I don't think I would bring my business back to them.


Hope you find your answer


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

I just posted this in another thread but I will agree completely with Petsmart having clean well kept tanks with healthy looking fish. I have purchased both fish and plants from Petsmart. As far as them being knowledgeable, watch out. I thought that too. Then I got home with my fish and found out a lot more about the species I bought for my community tank. (at their urging) 

I now have world war 3 going on in my tank. I am working to change the environment to help stop that but it might not be enough. They sold me fish that they swore were social and would only get a certain size. Turns out the fish are very aggressive and will get a LOT bigger then they said. I went back and complained about some and basically they told me to flush the fish. 

I would buy fish from Petsmart again but I would not do it based on the employees opinions. I don't think they are trained very well or I just ran into some really bad employees. I think each Petsmart will be different in that are but be careful until you yourself know better.

As far as Petco goes... Mine is horrid and I wouldn't buy anything from there.

I have a LFS here that I also like but they charge 50 times what I would pay at Petsmart so... I tend to lean toward Petsmart for fish. Now to figure out what I am supposed to do with the fish currently in my tank.

How do you feel about mystery fish through the mail? lol


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## iamgray (Jul 16, 2010)

Thanks for the replies so far... just realized I accidentally referred to the guppy fry as "hatching" when I know they are live...


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## iamgray (Jul 16, 2010)

Inga said:


> I would buy fish from Petsmart again but I would not do it based on the employees opinions. I don't think they are trained very well or I just ran into some really bad employees. I think each Petsmart will be different in that are but be careful until you yourself know better.


I am fairly confident with at least 2 of the employees there (both are there full time during the day). I have spoken with them enough and double checked their advice enough to trust that they really do know what they are talking about. But you are right that each employee and location will be different... you never can tell anymore because it seems like stores are so desperate for staff that they'll hire pretty much anyone just to have a body out on the sales floor (or at least that's what it's like where I live).


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

iamgray said:


> I accidentally referred to the guppy fry as "hatching" when I know they are live...


Well if that is the worst you do, you are in a good place. ;-) Just out of curiosity, do you know what kind of fish you will be stocking? What size tank? Water parameters? Planted or not? You probably already know all this but I didn't when I started out. I was still under the misguided assumption you bought a tank, filled it up and added fish after 24 hours. Common mistake among newbie Aquarius's, as I am finding out. I would love the help someone to learn from my own mistakes.

Oh yeah, and to be clear, I don't blame the employees for not knowing but I do blame them for giving wrong information without concern for the fish welfare. Most fish have a life expectancy of several years but I would guess few actually get to make it to ripe old ages. Improper mixing of species, wrong tank size, water parameter all issues.

If you do have a couple of knowledgeable staff there. That is great. We have a couple that THINK they know a lot but as it turns out, they don't. I now have a Rainbow shark that was marked as a Black Red tail. It was also listed as a peaceful community fish. So was my Leporinus. The tags said their maximum size was 6 inches and they told me most are done growing at 4 inches. We shall see how that works out. I have already lost 2 fish to improper pairings. Like you, I don't want casualties. I am a big wimp when it comes to things like that and I stressed to them that I wanted fish that would get along. My mistake was trusting them instead of doing a lot more research. I did some but not enough.


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## iamgray (Jul 16, 2010)

Ugh.. triple post... with regard to ordering fish through the mail.. I wouldn't even know where to start looking. For now I think I will stick with stores where I can walk in and stare at the fish for awhile before purchasing hehe.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

LOL I was kidding about that part. I just teasingly tried to pass off some of my trouble maker fish. I have heard very good things about ordering fish through Dr. Foster's and Smith, Live aquaria. I have not yet ordered any fish through the mail. That concept is still a Little uncomfortable to me but I know a lot of folks do it with great success.


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## iamgray (Jul 16, 2010)

Inga said:


> Well if that is the worst you do, you are in a good place. ;-) Just out of curiosity, do you know what kind of fish you will be stocking? What size tank? Water parameters? Planted or not? You probably already know all this but I didn't when I started out. I was still under the misguided assumption you bought a tank, filled it up and added fish after 24 hours. Common mistake among newbie Aquarius's, as I am finding out. I would love the help someone to learn from my own mistakes.


I totally made the newbie mistake of starting off with 4 guppies in a very small uncycled tank (2.5 gal or so) with no heater, no filter, just a bubbler. Two of them died within a day or two... then the remaining 2 started to look a bit sluggish so I asked around and a couple days later got a 10 gal tank from a coworker and moved the survivors over, and one got ick which he had for about a week and a half, and then he died (just this past friday). Now I think my tank is fully cycled... I'm not sure what the exact numbers are (and I can't double check because the tank is at work) but I checked my water today and there is 0 ammonia (I have a tester that suctions to the inside of the tank to give a constant reading). For the other stuff I use API 5 in 1 strips, 0 nitrite, and very low nitrate... pH is a little over 7... gh and kh I don't remember the numbers but they looked to be within the range of what it should be for a guppy (according to the test strips package). I just put some hornwort in the tank today - a bigger clump in a corner and then i separated a few smaller strands and dug them into the gravel in random spots.

I'm not sure what kind of fish I will be stocking. I definitely want an oto at some point, and was thinking of neon tetras but I have heard mixed answers on whether or not they'll be good with guppies. Some have told me they're fin nippers, others have told me they're not... some have told me they'll eat the fry, whereas the guy at the LFS today told me that "they won't but who cares if they do"... I would like a slightly larger and fancier looking fish to be kinda the star of the show but don't know what to get... all of the fish additions will not be taking place for another week or two because i want to make sure there's no ick left in the tank... so I figure i have time to listen to suggestions and do some more research.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

I can't answer about the fin nipping of the Neons because I have never had any. I will say that I have Tiger barbs and they are horrid little fin nippers. They are also incredibly active and drive other fish nuts with their constant and fast movements. That said, they are fun to watch. The Oto's are wonderful little fish and also fun to watch, not to mention they do a great job of keeping the tank clean. Best wait until there is something for them to clean up though.

Sounds like you are on the right track with research. I can't stress enough how important that is. I thought I had done enough research but I didn't and I am now paying for it. Had I not taken some peoples word for it, I would have different fish then I do. Never trust just one source unless you really know and trust them. 

There is so much knowledge right here on this forum. We beginners are so lucky to have this place as a sounding board.


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## LisaC144 (Oct 22, 2009)

This is a very tough question. I have 2 PetSmart's by me. One okay and one horrible. The staff at both stores are terrible BUT I never go into any fish store without first doing my research and knowing exactly the fish I want. I don't trust any employees, whether it is a manager or regular employee, even if they 'sound' knowledgeable. They've proven to me more than once that they are good talkers and good sales people. That's usually it. If your local PetSmart is clean and well kept, I wouldn't hesitate buying from there. What's nice about them is that they offer a 14 day guarantee on their live stock. If something dies within 14 days, bring back the dead fish and your receipt and you get a replacement fish. No questinos asked. Sometimes smaller fish stores don't offer this kind of gaurantee, but I always like to support my smaller stores if it is a good one. I bought from PetSmart once so far. Out of 12 fish, 2 died. I got 1 replacement fish, as the other one I never found :-(

Inga, perhaps you should speak to a manager at PetSmart about the fis that is giving you trouble. They will probably let you exchange the fish for soemthing more suitable.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

LisaC144 said:


> Inga, perhaps you should speak to a manager at PetSmart about the fis that is giving you trouble. They will probably let you exchange the fish for soemthing more suitable.


 
It has been longer then 14 days. I did talk to them and it was there that they basically told me to flush it. I would need to flush 1/2 of my tank, if all the "wrong fish" cause the problems that they could. Live and learn I guess. I really wanted to avoid all of the mistakes that I still ended up making. Hopefully, I can just make the environmental changes needed to keep peace in the valley.

I think what frustrates me so much is that I was very specific in what I wanted. I said I was going to have live plants, I wanted a friendly, peaceful community tank. I didn't want fish that will uproot plants or eat them, I didn't want fish that were constantly fighting. I got just that. Darn it!


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## LisaC144 (Oct 22, 2009)

We all make mistakes. When you're ready to restock or add more stock, just start a new thread and ask around here first. As you have learned, there are valuable people on this forum that have been in the hobby many years that are always more than willing to help.


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## iamgray (Jul 16, 2010)

Checked my water today so that I could post the numbers to answer Inga's question from yesterday...

GH = 120
KH = 40-80
pH = 7.5
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 20
Ammonia = 0


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

Yes, I agree Lisa. I have learned so much here. Too bad I didn't do that BEFORE making all the mistakes. ha ha


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## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

I'm going to go out on a limb and say something that will likely get me banned.

There's nothing wrong with Petsmart fish.

Yeah, I just said it. Why? Because like any fish shop the answer to almost any question about the quality of a shop is, "It depends." Just because a fish shop is a local place doesn't mean its going to be a good place. Just because it's a big chain store doesn't mean it's awful. It entirely depends upon the people working there. I know LFS that I won't even go in they're so awful. I know a LFS who's employees sell freshwater fish but have no clue at all about them (they're salt water guys). The ONLY fish store employee who asked me about my tank and stocking before netting some corys was wearing a Petsmart name tag.

To me it's very simple, I treat every place that sells fish independently. I go in and I look at many factors before buying fish.
1) Staffing. Are the knowledgeable or are they just fish netters? 
2) Maintenance. Are the tanks being maintained properly? Are they clean, not messy, and looked after?
3) Fish. Are the fish active and healthy or are they gasping at the surface or huddled in corners? Are their a lot of floaters?

I never buy on my first trip and I usually go back a few times before deciding to buy. 

For instance, the Petsmart nearest me has some great looking fish, always healthy and active. Very few if any dead fish floating. The tanks are clean, in fact there's almost always someone cleaning them every trip. And the only fish store employee who ever asked me about my tank worked for Petsmart. In comparison my LFS has a couple truly awful tanks (the neon/rummynose tetra is just disgusting), there's almost always an algae outbreak in several of them. They're the only place I've seen fish with ich in display tanks, they know next to nothing about freshwater, they have never asked me about my tank, and even with 1/3rd the number of tanks that Petsmart has they still manage to have twice as many floaters.

And for comparison, I have never been able to keep more than maybe 10% of the panda cories I've gotten from my LFS alive. In comparison I'm 6 for 6 with peppered cories from Petsmart. I've also paid less for fish and supplies from Petsmart as well.

I don't hold the LFS in any regard. I know there's the whole push to support small business but offer me something the big guys can't. If you're providing me with no more service or support than Petsmart and your prices are 50% higher what's my motivation for patronizing the LFS? I'm sorry, I'm on a budget, I can't afford to pay 50% extra just because.

TL;DR Version:
There's nothing wrong with Petsmart. Give it a good look over a few times before you buy and if it passes muster buy some fish.


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## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

Speaking to the issue of the fry.

First off fish like your live bearers have adopted a simple survival strategy. What they do is crank out so many babies that some can't help but survive. Live bearers make rabbits look celibate. If you buy a female live bearer from the store she's almost certainly pregnant, it's virtually unavoidable.

Your pregnant guppy will likely release between four and ten fry, maybe even more. Now, unless your tank is full of very active and very predatory fish, or has no cover at all, many of those fry are likely to survive. Lemme put it this way. I have never taken any steps to protect platy or guppy fry in my tanks and I have never seen more than 50% attrition. So you can expect between 2 and 5 of those fry to survive to adult hood. Now here's your problem. You've got two to five more fish than you started with. What are you going to do with them? Also, odds are good you got at least one male which means unless you segregate them early he's going to get his sisters or mother pregnant and start the cycle all over again. If you take no steps to reduce the population in six months or a year you can have more guppies in your tank than water.

So your options are really limited to be quite frank. You can either deal with an ever increasing guppy population or you can cull what you get. Personally I seperate out any males as early as I can identify them and take them back to the pet store where they'll be tossed in the feeder tank. I keep the females and consider them to be a delayed case of buy one get four free.

So while the store attendant likely seemed callous you've got to understand where he's coming from. Livebearers breed like hyperactive rabbits. Even if you take no steps to protect the fry some are going to survive and make more fish. Eventually you're going to have to start culling them out because they will just overwhelm you. In his opinion if some of the fry do get nicked it's just saving you the trouble of doing it yourself later.

I probably sound callous too but I've bred a lot of platys, more than even I want and I love them.


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## Russell (Jun 28, 2010)

I've been signed up for a while now and have just been reading mostly. This is my first post. I agree completely with evaluating each store independently. In my part of Jacksonville there are ZERO good LFS's I have tried them all. I have to drive 25 minutes to a Petsmart to get good stock. If I want anything unique I have to gamble with mail order or an LFS. But, I have only ever lost one Petsmart fish, a common Pleco and it was probably my water quality (if I knew then what I know now). However, I have lost nearly every fish I have ever bought from a LFS. I'm sure there are good ones, but here I have driven all over on my day off and every one had either rude, unknowledgable staff or over priced outdated merchandise or dead and sick fish in high numbers. But, where I used to live there was this little crowded LFS that people drove over 100 miles to buy fish from that I loved. There's actually a Walmart here that has healthy stock and appropriately stocked tanks. Every store is different and the primary difference is the staff. Good staff=Good fish. Don't condemn any store until you have made several trips and looked at ALL the tanks and don't byuy from one until you have done the same.
My next point is that fish are animals and are completely unpredictable. I have a full blooded Chow that is only 35 lbs full grown and is scared of his own shadow. However, I am told that Chows are 90 lb monsters that will maul small children. He always has enough premium food, was trained and socialized from an early age. He's just different for no apparent reason. I have a convict cichlid and a chinese algae eater that are both extremely aggressive. Conventional wisdom says these fish should not live together. However, the CAE is nocturnal and fast enough to get out of the convicts way and they get along fine occupying the tank at different times throughout the day. My cichlid also does quirky things. He swims up the the glass any time my girlfriend or I am around and wags his tail like a dog. When I clean his tank he doesn't hide, he comes right up to the glass and looks at my face while I have my hand and vacuum is his tank. If he's alone too long he gets pale but, darkens up when I come in. The point is fish are not robots that are set to different parameters and aggression levels. They are living things and one fish of a certain species may wreak havoc in your tank while another fish of the same species might not make any waves. The best we can do is research, stock our tanks, and hope for the best. Just because my Green Spotted Puffer rescued from a coworker that made an impulse buy at Wal-mart doesn't eat my fish or nip fins it doesn't mean that if you buy a Green Spotted Puffer from the same Wal-mart and you have the same set-up and stocking that I do that your puffer won't snap one of your danios in half.


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## iamgray (Jul 16, 2010)

Those last few long replies really gave me some things to think about. Russell, thank you for the dog personality analogy... I've never thought about it like that, I've been treating fish behaviour/personalities as black and white/cut and dry for an entire species instead of considering individual fish. And tyyrlym, when it comes to me trying to learn and think about as many opinions as I can, tl;dr is not in my vocabulary. I read every word. 

After making another trip to PetSmart and then stopping at a different LFS than the one I visited yesterday, I am pretty set on sticking with PetSmart when it's time to get more fish (next week sometime). I spoke with two people at the LFS and the first one was clearly just a clueless person trying to sell some fish. I started out by telling her I have a tank with a guppy, and was wanting to start stocking my tank soon, and said "how many fish should I add at a time?" Her reply was "you could put like... 10 guppies in or more." I said "Oh, really? Does it matter what size my tank is, or do I just get them and dump them in?" She said "yeah, you can pretty much just dump them in." I asked "What if my tank is pretty small?" Then she finally asked me what size my aquarium is, and when I told her 10 gallons, she said "well maybe start with 5 then, I dunno." I must have given her a weird look or else maybe she figured out I was testing her a bit, because then she grabbed her coworker and he knew a lot... I made sure to ask him questions that I had already researched myself before getting into the real questions. The tanks there were varied in their condition... some were pretty gross looking, but many were very clean... but I think I will stick with PetSmart because of the better prices, and it's closer to my office. I work out of town, and PetSmart is on the edge of town closest to my work, where the other store I checked out today is in the middle of the city. If I start an aquarium at home, I would likely choose the LFS I went to today because it's a 5 minute walk from my house.

Now... I have a list of fish in mind, in the order that I would add them.... 3 x Zebra Danio, 1 oto, 1 betta, 3 x cardinal tetra, 1 African dwarf frog.

Keeping in mind that i already have a guppy who may or may not be pregnant... is that too much for a 10 gallon tank? If I were to remove anything from the list, I would start from the bottom of the list and work my way up. Also... After reading the reply regarding culling the fry, I think I've decided that I'm not as concerned as i originally was about trying to keep them all. And, if the numbers are ok... can anyone see any issues with keeping those particular fish in a tank together? I'm mostly concerned about the betta... I've read and heard mixed answers about whether or not they can be kept with other fish. an office-mate has a betta with an oto and they just ignore each other...


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## Romad (Jun 28, 2009)

It's 6 of one and 1/2 dozen of the other IMO. You'll find local "mom and pop" fish stores with fantastic selection and healthy tanks only to go to the next town over and find pretty dismal conditions. The same applies to the chains. For the most part, the Petco and Petsmart where I moved from on the So. Shore in MA had decent selection, healthy tanks, and a fish "people" who had a clue of how to care for the tanks and actually cared about maintaining them.

Fast forward to the Petco and Petsmart an hour away where I moved to and the conditions are hideous. More dead fish than I could count stuck to the filter intakes and littered all over the bottom of the tank. I've gone in multiple times and have never had anyone come over to ask if I needed assistance. When I asked to have someone paged, guess who never showed up??

And the local fish "specialty" store has decent tanks and no selection worth anything. 

So my advice is to take a day or two and visit the pet stores within say 25 miles of where you are, pick the best one and make that your fish purchase place. Most supplies can be bought online at a much cheaper rate or you can just grab something at the chains when needed.

Good luck.


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## Winner (May 13, 2010)

There is a local LFS in my town that's 100% a total dump, with dyed and tattooed platys, an overall dirty presentation (i just hate walking in there) and plenty of dying fish in the tanks. A great deal of their stock are stuff most people shouldn't be keeping like Pacus and Arowanas and 'freshwater' Morays, and their accessories/etc are also overpriced quite steeply. I would buy rather from the Petco in town or the Petsmart 40 minutes away any day over this store. So there's indeed sometimes that a chain store could be better than an LFS.

But I instead buy from the Countrymax in town (a chain, but they have a huge LFS-like freshwater department of several rooms, as well as good salespeople), or a big LFS about an hour and ten minutes away that has just about -everything- and a really cool presentation and great salespeople.


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## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

Well lemme see. First off I'm hesitant to recommend any tetra and a betta. Tetras can be nippy and a male betta's finnage is going to get nipped if your fish are nippers. Also you should really keep most tetras in groups of six or more. You just get the best presentation of them the more there are. Trust me. I love tetras almost as much as I love RTBS. 

Second, the betta is not going to be happy sharing his territory with that many fish, especially that many active fish like the danios and tetras. It's very likely to stress him out. If you're going to but a betta in a community tank you're best off mixing him with calmer fish. 

Ottos can be sociable, most people recommend larger groups of them, at least 3. The same with ADFs. As for bettas and ottos, mine just ignore each other. The otto is calm, quiet, and sticks to the lower half of the tank where as the betta stays mostly in the upper half. Just out of curiosity what kind of set up does your office-mate have? I've got a six gallon Eclipse in my office with my fish.

Finally, tossing in a pregnant guppy is not a good idea. There's nothing wrong with the guppy but any males she gives birth too will be in trouble with the betta around, he'll nail them for the big fins. Also, you're getting up there in the number of fish in a ten gallon tank. About as many as I'd recommend.

So what I need to know is what of those fish do you really want and we can talk about how to tweak your stocking to make it all mesh a little better.


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## LisaC144 (Oct 22, 2009)

+1 on Tyyrlym. Tetras need to be kept 5+. They feel threatened in numbers any less. Also, a betta's long flowing tail wil lbe too tempting for the danios, plus danios are shoaling fish that should be kept in a larger group as well. Same goes for the Otto's as stated above. 

I think you need to make a choice. A betta with possibly some corys as bottom feeders if you like them (you can even add a snail if interested), OR a shoal of tetras, otto's, and maybe some bottom feeders as well. Hope this helps some!


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## iamgray (Jul 16, 2010)

Lisa and Tyyrlym, thank you for the info! I had read mixed opinions on whether or not the cardinal tetras are known for fin nipping, and had read somewhere that they are less likely to nip than neons. I would like to keep either the danios or the tetras. If I choose one over the other in order to have a group of 5-7 instead of 3, will the larger group make them less likely to nip? If I were to choose, I would likely choose the danios because I heard they are hardier, but if cardinal tetras are rather hardy as well I would keep them instead just because I think they look nicer. 

I mostly want the betta because I want to have a slightly larger and showier fish along with the smaller plainer fish. Is there another fish that I just haven't found that might be able to take the place of the betta and fill that role of larger and showier? Maybe something that is showy because of nice body colouring rather than flowing fins, that wouldn't be aggravated by the high activity level? I do have some hornwort in the tank as well as a few tall-ish decorations to break up sight lines if that makes a difference.

If I can't find something to replace the betta, what would you recommend I replace the tetras and danios with? I like corys, but would like to choose something that will swim around the top/middle more. Platys? Or would they also be too active for a betta? Should I just give up on the betta? I think I would rather have a group of pretty/interesting looking shoaling fish than the betta if it comes down to a choice.

As far as the frog, that's kind of an afterthought and completely expendable in my aquarium plan. If it means a happier, healthier, less crowded aquarium, I'll forget about the frog because I was thinking of having just one, and don't want to get the recommended 3 and take up space that can be used by something I like more... if that makes sense.

(as far as the office-mate's tank set up, i think it's a 2-ish gallon bowl, with just the betta and oto, a couple bamboo shoots and a water hyacinth).


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## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

> I would like to keep either the danios or the tetras. If I choose one over the other in order to have a group of 5-7 instead of 3, will the larger group make them less likely to nip? If I were to choose, I would likely choose the danios because I heard they are hardier, but if cardinal tetras are rather hardy as well I would keep them instead just because I think they look nicer.


Well, it's going to depend. If you lose the betta you can keep both breeds and bump up their numbers. They are all small fish with a very minimal bioload impact. One word of warning about the cardinals, they are a bit on the delicate side and a lower pH softer water than many store bought fish. I think I've heard of some commercial farms raising them but I could be wrong. Any fish that is wild caught is typically less hardy. Danios though are almost bullet proof and personally I like the long finned zebra danios. Very active and nice to look at. Personally I've got to recommend the danios.



> I mostly want the betta because I want to have a slightly larger and showier fish along with the smaller plainer fish. Is there another fish that I just haven't found that might be able to take the place of the betta and fill that role of larger and showier? Maybe something that is showy because of nice body colouring rather than flowing fins, that wouldn't be aggravated by the high activity level? I do have some hornwort in the tank as well as a few tall-ish decorations to break up sight lines if that makes a difference.


Well the problem is that in a tank your size "larger" really isn't possible. Most of the larger showier fish need significantly larger tanks to live comfortably. Don't discount the visual impact of a large group of smaller fish though. A shoal of 10 or 15 tetras or danios can make a pretty striking display.



> If I can't find something to replace the betta, what would you recommend I replace the tetras and danios with? I like corys, but would like to choose something that will swim around the top/middle more. Platys? Or would they also be too active for a betta? Should I just give up on the betta? I think I would rather have a group of pretty/interesting looking shoaling fish than the betta if it comes down to a choice.


Depends on the platy honestly. They're a bit more mellow than your tetras and danios. All of mine have been pretty docile and I've had them in the same tank as both bettas and male guppies without seeing any nipping. Some others might have other opinions but I think platys would likely do just fine with a betta. Now I would advise making sure you only get female platys, preferably from a tank with all one color variation in it. Expect them to be pregnant so get less than you think you'll want eventually and don't get as many as you got tetras or danios. Platys are larger fish. In your tank with a betta and maybe some corys I'd only get 3 or 4 to start with at most.



> As far as the frog, that's kind of an afterthought and completely expendable in my aquarium plan. If it means a happier, healthier, less crowded aquarium, I'll forget about the frog because I was thinking of having just one, and don't want to get the recommended 3 and take up space that can be used by something I like more... if that makes sense.


I'd definitely lose the frogs.



> (as far as the office-mate's tank set up, i think it's a 2-ish gallon bowl, with just the betta and oto, a couple bamboo shoots and a water hyacinth).


Ugh... sorry, I just hate hearing about fish being kept in a filter-less bowl.


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## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

And just for reference, the difference between male and female platys:


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## iamgray (Jul 16, 2010)

Ok. I think I'm going to give up on the betta because it seems to throw "too much to think about" into the mix for a beginner such as myself. What if I add, in this order: 

7 x zebra danio
3 x platy
3 x oto

And see how I handle that, and possibly add 5-7 cardinal tetras at some point later on? The seemingly more knowledgable person that I spoke to at the LFS yesterday said that with shoaling fish I should keep them in odd numbers. Is that true or is it an old wives tale, and if true, what's the reason behind it?

and the advice to get female platys... is that only if there is a betta in the tank? If there's no betta, then am I fine to just get males since I don't want babies? 

Am I overthinking this too much? Or is overthinking it a good thing?


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## rtbob (Jul 26, 2010)

My local Petsmart is great. The Petco just across the interstate had so many dead fish it was sickining. 
The closest LFS to me has a great selection, nice clean tanks, are over priced and either don't know squat or flat out lie. A couple things they have told me are "Clown Loaches only get 3-4 inches long" "The White Skirted Tetra isn't a schooling fish". This info came from one of the owners.

Now another LFS about 15 miles away in Austin is outstanding. Largest selection I have found, well maintained tanks, prices are just a bit higher, they will actually buy your fish back at anytime and are very knowledgeable.

Spend some time going from store to store until you find the right one. It's well worth the effort.


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## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

iamgray said:


> Ok. I think I'm going to give up on the betta because it seems to throw "too much to think about" into the mix for a beginner such as myself. What if I add, in this order:
> 
> 7 x zebra danio
> 3 x platy
> ...


That's a solid stocking plan. I will say this though, why are you getting the ottos? Never buy a fish assuming it will do some work for you, always get them because you like them for some reason. There is no guarantee that the ottos are going to eat algae for you. Once you feed them some sinking algae wafers (and you will have to, your tank won't be large enough to grow enough algae to support 3 ottos) they may not go back to eating the wild growing stuff. You will still have to clean the tank and do all the work you normally would. I just say this because a lot of people buy ottos expecting them to work and are then sorely disappointed.



> The seemingly more knowledgable person that I spoke to at the LFS yesterday said that with shoaling fish I should keep them in odd numbers. Is that true or is it an old wives tale, and if true, what's the reason behind it?


Well lemme ask you this, do you think the fish can count and process concepts like "even" and "odd" ?



> and the advice to get female platys... is that only if there is a betta in the tank? If there's no betta, then am I fine to just get males since I don't want babies?


No, all males are just fine if you want. The only down side is that in the absence of females I've had my males get belligerent on each other. Since then I've always kept females.



> Am I overthinking this too much? Or is overthinking it a good thing?


No, thinking about what you're doing is important. You're going to be caring for these fish so you should be making their lives as good as possible. Also, you're going to be investing a lot of time and money in this, you should make sure you do it right.


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## iamgray (Jul 16, 2010)

Tyyrlym said:


> That's a solid stocking plan. I will say this though, why are you getting the ottos? Never buy a fish assuming it will do some work for you, always get them because you like them for some reason. There is no guarantee that the ottos are going to eat algae for you. Once you feed them some sinking algae wafers (and you will have to, your tank won't be large enough to grow enough algae to support 3 ottos) they may not go back to eating the wild growing stuff. You will still have to clean the tank and do all the work you normally would. I just say this because a lot of people buy ottos expecting them to work and are then sorely disappointed.


I ended up getting 3 harlequin rasboras and 3 platys, and am babysitting a friend's oto while he's away on vacation (the oto is in my tank until he gets back). I think once he gets back and takes his oto back, I'll just get one maybe. I want something that will help keep the tank clean, and I think otos are cute and fun to watch... but if there won't be enough algae for 3 then maybe I'll stick with 1.



> lemme ask you this, do you think the fish can count and process concepts like "even" and "odd" ?


Hahah probably not (at least not in the way we understand the concept) but who knows if there's some other reasoning behind it than just plain math? I had read a suggestion elsewhere that it's more about keeping the 2:1 ratio between females and males with livebearers, which does make a bit more sense.



> No, all males are just fine if you want. The only down side is that in the absence of females I've had my males get belligerent on each other. Since then I've always kept females.


I believe I have 2 females and 1 male platy.



> No, thinking about what you're doing is important. You're going to be caring for these fish so you should be making their lives as good as possible. Also, you're going to be investing a lot of time and money in this, you should make sure you do it right.


Yeah... just sometimes I feel like I've made this near-instant transformation from someone who only thought about fish as food, into someone who can't stop thinking about fish and how to keep them alive and happy haha.


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## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

iamgray said:


> I ended up getting 3 harlequin rasboras and 3 platys,


I will say that something I blanked on is that you've got a small tank and zebra danios are very active swimmers that need room. I think what you've got now is good.



> and am babysitting a friend's oto while he's away on vacation (the oto is in my tank until he gets back). I think once he gets back and takes his oto back, I'll just get one maybe. I want something that will help keep the tank clean, and I think otos are cute and fun to watch... but if there won't be enough algae for 3 then maybe I'll stick with 1.


You already have something that will keep the tank clean. You. I'm not being mean but it is your responsibility to keep the tank in the condition you want it, not the fish's. I have never heard of anyone with a freshwater tank successfully combat algae with an animal they introduced to the tank, ever. There are too many factors at play to ever be successful in this way. If you think the otos are cute and fun to watch then by all means get 3, they like crowds. Suppliment their diet with sinking algae wafers and they'll likely be fine.



> Hahah probably not (at least not in the way we understand the concept) but who knows if there's some other reasoning behind it than just plain math?


I have never seen any actual reasoning behind that bit of advice, not even bad reasoning. The explanation I usually hear is, "Well that's what I was told." Most shoaling fish don't exist in small groups in the wild but in groups of hundreds, even thousands of fish at a time. There's no way a human can count them much less a fish. When it comes to fish like tetras just know they like lots of company, the more the better. You'll get better activity out of them and they just look great in large groups. Other fish, like tiger barbs and cichlids, need to be kept in large groups to spread around the agression and bullying they can get into so that the weaker fish aren't systematically killed off.



> I had read a suggestion elsewhere that it's more about keeping the 2:1 ratio between females and males with livebearers, which does make a bit more sense.


That is actually very good advice and I would consider it an absolute minimum as well. Like I said earlier livebearers have adopted the survival mechanism of just making so many little fish that some are bound to survives. Consequently male live bearers are horny little devils and will pester the female incessantly. Just like with the more agressive fish you keep multiple females in the tank to spread the male's advances around.



> I believe I have 2 females and 1 male platy.


Well then mazal tov, both your females are pregnant.



> Yeah... just sometimes I feel like I've made this near-instant transformation from someone who only thought about fish as food, into someone who can't stop thinking about fish and how to keep them alive and happy haha.


That's just sort of the way it works honestly. Though I still enjoy a nice piece of sushi.


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