# Prime Users - dose per gallon



## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

Prime users - at 5ml per 50 gallons, I'm calculating 2 drops per gallon (WWC). 

Is this correct?


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

AbbeysDad said:


> Prime users - at 5ml per 50 gallons, I'm calculating 2 drops per gallon (WWC).
> 
> Is this correct?


 One ml treats ten gallons and half of that would treat five. I always add more than needed in case water company suddenly decides to increase chlorine content which they do a couple times each year, and aren't very good at giving warning to hobbyist's. I suspect the added chlorine doesn't have as big an effect on humans as it does on fishes (possibly why they seldom mention it publicly). 
If I take out ten gallons at water change ,I add enough prime to treat fifteen gallons. Prime can be added at double dose without issues as per advertisement, and expieriences of other's.
Considering it take nearly three times less product with Prime over most all other water conditioner's, even at double dose,,Prime will last considerably longer than other conditioner's.


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

1077 said:


> One ml treats ten gallons and half of that would treat five. I always add more than needed in case water company suddenly decides to increase chlorine content which they do a couple times each year, and aren't very good at giving warning to hobbyist's. I suspect the added chlorine doesn't have as big an effect on humans as it does on fishes (possibly why they seldom mention it publicly).
> If I take out ten gallons at water change ,I add enough prime to treat fifteen gallons. Prime can be added at double dose without issues as per advertisement, and expieriences of other's.
> Considering it take nearly three times less product with Prime over most all other water conditioner's, even at double dose,,Prime will last considerably longer than other conditioner's.


Thanks for the feedback.
I have private well water so chlorine is not an issue. I use conditioner in the event of any heavy metals and to detox any ammonia. In my wwc, I use a gravel siphon into a garden hose out to the lawn. The refill is in dedicated 2 gallon 'mop' bucket brigade, so I was getting down to the gallon dose to precisely add the right amount. Looks like about a hundred drops in 5ml, which equates to about 2 drops per gallon.

(I was using and happy with API StressCoat, but switching to prime after adding a filter with Matrix as the bio-media and Seachem [of course] recommends Prime for a few reasons, one is the claim of de-nitrate bacteria requiring reduced sulfur compounds.... http://www.seachem.com/Library/SeaGrams/Biofiltration.pdf)


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

IMO you don't need prime. I was on a private well for 4 years and never used any conditioner. I don't trust what seachem says since its clear they are trying to sell you something. I don't believe in the 3rd step of the cycle in most tanks. You need anaerobic zones which are hard to come by. The last step forms more toxic nitrogen and sulfur gases. Along with the fact of proving such a system is working you would need to have nitrate reduction in a tank with no live plants and no aid of water changes or denitrators. I can't see why you would want this step when you can simply use live plants instead to drop nitrate levels. You don't even need the third step regardless, nitrate is easily controlled. 

Prime does detox heavy metals, but even prime doesn't give you a method of how it does this. Most heavy metals it detoxes are also essential minerals that are in your fish food and any plant fertilizer anyway:|.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I believe that Seachem link is intended for marine/reef tanks, not freshwater. I must say there is a lot of involved stuff there that should not be needed, some inaccuracies too. I'm in the process of putting together what I hope will be a useful basic guide to bacteria in freshwater aquaria since this topic comes up so frequently, and this Seachem article is going way beyond that. 

Mikalia is quite correct, stick in some live plants and one can practically forget all the chemistry.


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

Byron said:


> I believe that Seachem link is intended for marine/reef tanks, not freshwater. I must say there is a lot of involved stuff there that should not be needed, some inaccuracies too. I'm in the process of putting together what I hope will be a useful basic guide to bacteria in freshwater aquaria since this topic comes up so frequently, and this Seachem article is going way beyond that.
> 
> Mikalia is quite correct, stick in some live plants and one can practically forget all the chemistry.


The link was from the Matrix page which was a link from the Freshwater Products page. When you sift through the documentation, Seachem's claim is that Matrix is to freshwater bio-filtration as live rock is to marine. With no objective evidence, I can't say that the 3-30 micron macro pore size of Matrix truly promotes thiobacillus bacteria, but Seachem does. 
Perhaps it's all marketing hype and all the ceramic bio-media products on the market are a conspiracy to bilk the public. 
What do I know.
I still think undergravel filters can work too!

I tried rooting plants but the Platys stripped them to the stalk. I may try again at some point.


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

AbbeysDad said:


> I still think undergravel filters can work too!


UGF can certainly work just fine, they work great actually if you use reverse-flow. 

With all that I have learned I am really loving my filterless tank. I can stock much higher then expected. It is by far my most stable, problem free tank with the best water quality out of all my tanks. Within the next week I an moving and converting a mature tank to what I hope will be filterless. IDK how many fish are in it though lol.


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

Mikaila31 said:


> UGF can certainly work just fine, they work great actually if you use reverse-flow.
> With all that I have learned I am really loving my filterless tank. I can stock much higher then expected. It is by far my most stable, problem free tank with the best water quality out of all my tanks. Within the next week I an moving and converting a mature tank to what I hope will be filterless. IDK how many fish are in it though lol.


I saw the photos of your filter 'cleaning' and can understand how you would most likely do better without it. ;-)


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

I guess we might say that given a few 5g pails and 24-48 hrs., almost nobody 'needs' to use a water conditioner.
On the other hand, some people that eat reasonably well still take vitamins. Nothing really wrong with additives that detox heavy metals, ammonia and nitrites .... assuming there are not cumulative negatives. I think overdosing, in spite of vendor assurances should probably be avoided, but modest, albeit conservative use, should be ‘okay’, even if not absolutely necessary. 
The “ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure” adage.

As I mentioned, I had been using StressCoat, but unfortunately it has been reported that aloe vera may coat and impede bio-media with macro pores. I added another filter using Matrix, so thought I would switch to Prime at the same time as many people here have reported favorable results using it. 
Like many, I also believe you could load a bio-filter with say gravel and create a ‘platform’ for beneficial bacteria…a pseudo undergravel filter. However, we shouldn’t necessarily discount that various forms of ceramic (and other porous) media just might create an even better environment for bacteria colonies. Further, with the appropriate micron size, this porous material, along with other required elements, may provide an infrastructure to further support and enhance [even] better water quality. 
I suppose we can’t fully trust what people say when they are trying to sell us stuff. On the other hand, we can still listen and apply evaluation logic.

_Actually, it’s almost funny. When I look at (and through) my 60g tank with it’s crystal clear water and take into account the measures of filtration and 30-50% weekly water changes with fresh well water, I wonder …. Is there any river, pool, pond or ditch in central/south America with water this clean?!_

Heavy metals like copper, iron, lead, etc. are not "essential minerals" we want or need in our aquariums.

Footnote: When I bought the 60g tank, I purchased an AquaClear 70 filter. I didn’t know at the time that it’s adjustable flow feature didn’t just reduce the flow, but actually caused re-filtration in the process. By rotating the intake tube slightly off the impeller, along with how the media chamber is designed, causes filtered water to be re-filtered. Wide open, it’s rated for 300gph, throttled down, 100gph.
After the tank had cycled, I had the notion of switching from the AC supplied ceramic rings (BioMax) to Seachem Matrix. But of course, didn’t want to upset the balance of the now nearly established tank. Now my water quality has been very good, no complaints. _(But I’ve been religious with 30-50% weekly water changes with serious gravel siphoning. Every 2-3 weeks the rocks and (plastic) plants go through the dishwasher with 2 cups of white vinegar.) _
I thought about a canister, but decided instead to add another AC70 on the other side, also set at the lowest flow (maximum re-filtering). The second filter, in addition to the sponge and pre-filter pad, is filled with Seachem Matrix. Once it has become established (in 3-4 weeks) I may fill the other filter with Matrix as well. Both filters are throttled to the lowest flow yielding a total of 200gph resulting in maximum refiltration. 
Some suggest that the HOB creates too much water flow. I have simple baffles made from water bottles that redirect the flow across the back wall of the tank. This results in very little current in the rest of the tank - more is created by the slight bubble wall on one end.


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

AbbeysDad said:


> I guess we might say that given a few 5g pails and 24-48 hrs., almost nobody 'needs' to use a water conditioner.
> On the other hand, some people that eat reasonably well still take vitamins. Nothing really wrong with additives that detox heavy metals, ammonia and nitrites .... assuming there are not cumulative negatives. I think overdosing, in spite of vendor assurances should probably be avoided, but modest, albeit conservative use, should be ‘okay’, even if not absolutely necessary.
> The “ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure” adage.
> 
> ...


LOL you remember my canister:lol:. Don't worry I love my mulm. Maybe you will too once you switch to live plants. My filterless tank has a inch of black dirt under the sand in it to make up for that. The one I am redoing will be setup with the same. If you want anaerobic places that certainly has some. 

Well copper and iron are certainly essential elements required by all living organisms to survive. You can bind up the ones in the tap water if you feel the need to, because luckily for your fishes sake these are all supplemented in most foods as well. If you are afraid of copper, just remember most parasite medications have an active copper ingredient. Iron we know is the key of the blood cells ability to transport oxygen. Lead is certainly not essential, but lead traces are quite normal. They were in my old well water and that was drink-water safe via lab tests. Most my fish are still living at that house and have been in that water for years if not their whole lives. If its drinking water you are using any harmful heavy metals like lead and mercury as well as non-heavy metals like arsenic are not going to be of concern since these must be very low for it to be drinking water safe. 

Washing the rocks and plastic plants is way overkill IMO. But I know we do things very different. I prefer the natural way. I break all the 'rules' with my tanks. Turning filters off for days at a time, throwing bark, dead leaves, and other organics in the tanks. Next tank I am moving has not seen a gravel vac in years(and you though my canister was bad). It is one of the many reasons I have been putting off moving it for the last week. None the less all my tanks are perfectly stable. Two of mine actively consume nitrate, not produce it. One of the benefits of forsaking the bacterial cycle;-).


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

Mikaila31 said:


> LOL you remember my canister:lol:. Don't worry I love my mulm. Maybe you will too once you switch to live plants. My filterless tank has a inch of black dirt under the sand in it to make up for that. The one I am redoing will be setup with the same. If you want anaerobic places that certainly has some.


I think such large volumes of decomposing organic matter is very bad - especially in a filter. It looked to me like you should have been servicing that filter much more often. All that mulm in the filter should have been in the substrate to feed the plants….right?~



Mikaila31 said:


> Well copper and iron are certainly essential elements required by all living organisms to survive. You can bind up the ones in the tap water if you feel the need to, because luckily for your fishes sake these are all supplemented in most foods as well. If you are afraid of copper, just remember most parasite medications have an active copper ingredient. Iron we know is the key of the blood cells ability to transport oxygen. Lead is certainly not essential, but lead traces are quite normal. They were in my old well water and that was drink-water safe via lab tests. Most my fish are still living at that house and have been in that water for years if not their whole lives. If its drinking water you are using any harmful heavy metals like lead and mercury as well as non-heavy metals like arsenic are not going to be of concern since these must be very low for it to be drinking water safe.


I have read that even heavy metal levels 'allowed' in drinking water may be toxic to many forms of aquatic life. In part, this may be the difference between rain/run off/surface water vs. deep well where water has percolated though mineral rock...not to mention lead sweat copper plumbing (but I admit that I'm NO expert on water!). 
Copper/Copper Sulfate IS a killer, including bacteria. I would not want or use it in a main tank.




Mikaila31 said:


> Washing the rocks and plastic plants is way overkill IMO.


Routinely cleaning the decor, like cleaning the glass makes it easier in the long run ... like pay me now or PAY me later. Cleaning the decor (and the gravel siphoning) this way would also help focus/concentrate the beneficial bacteria colony(ies) in the bio-media in the filter(s).




Mikaila31 said:


> But I know we do things very different. I prefer the natural way. I break all the 'rules' with my tanks. Turning filters off for days at a time, throwing bark, dead leaves, and other organics in the tanks. Next tank I am moving has not seen a gravel vac in years(and you though my canister was bad). It is one of the many reasons I have been putting off moving it for the last week. None the less all my tanks are perfectly stable. Two of mine actively consume nitrate, not produce it. One of the benefits of forsaking the bacterial cycle;-).


We'll need to agree to disagree. Throwing dead organic matter in the tank just unnecessarily increases the bio-load. Turning filters off just starves aerobic bacteria of necessary oxygen. The fact that algae and plants consume some nitrates does not ‘forsake the bacterial cycle’. Not sure what you meant by that?

Btw, my conventional UGF works great - just have to maintain the filter media which means gravel siphoning that I'd do even if I didn't have the UGF!


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

Copper sulfate is the active ingredient to copper safe, aquarisol and some other common external parasite medications. If you are not using copper then the medication usually contains formalin which is something I will not use on any of my fishes. I use copper medications exclusively for dealing with external parasites it has never once effect my fish or filter. If the heavy metals allowed in drinking water are harmful to our fish in even those traces, why are they in the fish food. You mention copper sulfate, have you ever noticed this is the same compound they add to most all fish foods to supply copper to the fishes. My hikari fish food has 7 heavy metal sulfates in the ingredients list, even NLS has 6 easily stand out heavy metals supplements in there ingredient list. The trace fertilizer I use for my plants is almost all heavy metal supplements. Along with the extra magnesium I dose. I also dose nitrates if my plants deplete them. 

If large amounts of decaying organics or mulm is bad why is it at the bottom of most every lake and stream? Regardless of what I add to some of my tanks. Pounds of black dirt, sticks, bark, ect. Nitrates go down. I had 23ppm of NO3 out of the well at my old house, some of my tanks could take that down to almost nothing. 

Algae and plants consume much more then just nitrates. A filterless tank does not produce nitrates in the excessive amounts a tank with a bacterial cycle does. Plants consume ammonia much more readily then they would nitrates. They also consume heavy metals, phosphates, and much much MUCH more. Plant uptakes ammonia as a form of nitrogen, no nitrite or nitrates are produced. I do foresake the bacterial cycle. My one tank has a circulation pump in it, no filter and no media. No bacterial filtration or mechanical. Sure their are bacteria, but not enough for the aquarium to be dependent on them with 20 some fish in 15 gallons along with shrimp and snails. I have pounds of plants in all my tanks. They actively consume ammonia produced in the tank, halting the typical cycling path. If you look at the nitrogen cycle in a natural pond plants play a important role in it. There is more then one way to cycle nitrogen in a aquarium. That is the basis of the walstad method.


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

> I'm pretty sure we don't want heavy metals in the water which is why most conditioners detox for them.

> We really can't compare open flowing waters with our aquariums when it comes to handling organic waste.
In stagnant pools and swamps, excessive decomposition organic matter fouls the water and doesn't support many types of aquatic life. 
I think we also have to recognize that mulm is a combination of actively decomposing material and the resulting, nearly inert humus like material. I think with the exception of that which has value to fertilize plants, excessive decomposing organic matter would best be avoided in the aquarium.

> Your probably correct - given sufficient plants with light and nutrients to support them, the aquarium may become a more manageable eco-system. I don't have a lot of experience with live plants in the aquarium but would like to at some point. The 'trouble' is my tank is now established. The (plastic) plants I have look natural and great every day and are unaffected by light, Co2, nutrients, etc. My filters are set for maximum filtration with minimum flow and the water is crystal clear and I believe spot on for the N2 cycle. So except for a side hobby of aquatic gardening, I don't have a burning incentive for live plants - maybe I'll just add some floating plants again, now that baffles prevent the surface flow from blasting them around as it did before.


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

Then why to plant fertilizers add them back in? I fertilize my tanks pretty heavily. N, P, K, Mg, Mn, Fe, Zn, Cu, Mo, B, Co and Mb are all elements that get intentionally added to my tanks. Most my fish have been raised in my water and breed in it. You can insist that heavy metals they are bad, but it doesn't change the fact that a lot are essential for all life. Why does it matter where they are? In the water, in the substrate, in the fish food? 

Your correct about mulm being active, I use it often to boost start a tank cycle and it will give me decent nitrite readings in a day. 

And established tank does not limit live plants. Crystal clear water has nothing to do with it either. You know what I throw in my tanks and my water is crystal clear too. I have a thread in the planted section of redoing a tank with a soil substrate. A couple pounds of dirt under the gravel and its still crystal clear a day after setup :-D.


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