# SMALL BEGINNER SW fish?????



## veganchick (Jan 10, 2009)

_*PLEASE READ AND REPLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*_
Hi, I have been keeping freshwater fish for a while, and have done pretty well with them. I would really like to start a nano reef or something with some small, easy, beginner Saltwater fish. What do you think about Blue damsels??? Any other fish reccomended? If all goes well, in the future I would like to start a 5 gallon Dwarf Seahorse tank (I read that Dwarf seahorses NEED tanks between 2 and ten gallons, anything bigger is 2 big) , but I realize now that I will need a bit more experience first. Please help! I don't really know much about Saltwater, reefs, and live rocks, but I am doing some research. Please help! Suggestions? Advice???


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## Cody (Dec 22, 2007)

We can't recommend fish untill we get a tank size.

But, about Damsels, do not purchase one unless you want it forever. They are called Blue DEVIL Damsels for a reason...

The only advice I can offer right now is to study, study, study, and study. Patience is the key to this hobby, and only bad things happen fast. Look around and get inspiration at other people's tanks, and just read up on everything. We can help you target what you need help on, because asking what you need is probably the most vague, "most-wide" question that can be asked.

Good luck.


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

Green chromis or lawnmower blennies are about the only fish I can think of for this tank size. Damsels are a pain to catch once you begin to regret keeping them. How about doing a SOWLR (snails only with live rocks)?:wink:


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## veganchick (Jan 10, 2009)

Lupin said:


> Green chromis or lawnmower blennies are about the only fish I can think of for this tank size. Damsels are a pain to catch once you begin to regret keeping them. How about doing a SOWLR (snails only with live rocks)?:wink:


Sounds cool, the green chromis are sooo pretty!!! Will they get alon with a snail and some shrimp? If so what kinds do you reccomend for a 5 gallon?


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## Cody (Dec 22, 2007)

Lupin said:


> Green chromis or lawnmower blennies are about the only fish I can think of for this tank size. Damsels are a pain to catch once you begin to regret keeping them. How about doing a SOWLR (snails only with live rocks)?:wink:


Lol. I should have known... 

Lawnmower Blennies are a bit risky in a tank this size IMO. They need a lot of algae or veggie matter in their diet, and grow somewhat large (~4").

I'll stock for a 10G...
-Clownfish
-Other Damsels
-Firefish
-The small Nano gobies (Clown, Green Banded, etc)
-Royal Gramma
-Sixline Wrasse (needs to be alone)
-Shrimp Gobies
-Some pseudochromis
-Chromis
-You can fit in one of the smaller, reef safe Frogfish if you really want to (Painted or Wartskin)
-Scooter Blenny (with caution)

Of course, not all of this. Only one fish to start, possibly two if your tank has matured past 6-8 months.


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## Cody (Dec 22, 2007)

And for a 5G...

-Nano Gobies
-A damsel
(one or the other)

All should get along fine with most snails like Astreas, Nassarius, Ceriths, Nerites, etc. A Peppermint or Skunk Cleaner shrimp can fit too. Hermits as well for a part of this CUC.


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

Hey, snails aren't bad. They're pretty to look at. Some people just overlook the natural beauties especially nerites.:wink: _Vitta usnea_ is available around and can do well in SW conditions consuming algae effectively. Nerites absorb plenty of calcium so you may need to dose calcium to aid their very thick shells. There is no risk in overdosing calcium that I know of.


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

http://www.fishforum.com/member-submitted-articles/introduction-salt-water-19051/


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## Cody (Dec 22, 2007)

Lupin said:


> Hey, snails aren't bad. They're pretty to look at. Some people just overlook the natural beauties especially nerites.:wink: _Vitta usnea_ is available around and can do well in SW conditions consuming algae effectively. Nerites absorb plenty of calcium so you may need to dose calcium to aid their very thick shells. There is no risk in overdosing calcium that I know of.


Oh, I wasn't saying they are bad. I am saying that Mr. Snail Master would be the first to mention it... lol.


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## veganchick (Jan 10, 2009)

Thanks guys! today I went to my school library (it has everything) and got a bunch of books on marine aquariums. I am doing alot of research and stuff, and this sounds so cool! I think I will get a 10 gallon, not sure yet. I would like it if anyone can reccomend some peaceful snails that don't spread like wildfire, and will do well in a very small tank. I would also like snails that aren't likely to get eaten!! LOL! I will continue my research, and hopefully figure out how I want to set up my tank.


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## veganchick (Jan 10, 2009)

Oh, and cody, you said clownfish would be ok in a 10 gallon, but I thought they needed a minimum of 30g


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Just one point. Regardless of what type of tank you want, the basics of how to maintain the proper water chemistry do not change. You want an aragonite sand bed, live rock, and a protein skimmer. This will be the basics of every marine aquarium you set up, regardless of size. (For aquariums under 20 gallons, activated carbon could be used instead of a protein skimmer, assuming regular water changes.)


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## aquakid (Jun 22, 2008)

Ok i like the blue damsel idea

I would recommend

Amphiprion Ocellaris
any damselfish
Firefish
Purple Firefish
Chocolate Chip Starfish
Turbo Snails 
Hermit Crabs
Neon Blue Gobie

ALSO *DO NOT START SEAHORSES AS THEY ARE VERY DIFFICULT TO KEEP*

*START LOW PROFILE*


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## veganchick (Jan 10, 2009)

Ok, I did some research and certain kinds of clownfish need bigger tanks than others. What do you think about a 10 gallon with a small clownfish, and a damsel of some sort?


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## Cody (Dec 22, 2007)

veganchick said:


> Thanks guys! today I went to my school library (it has everything) and got a bunch of books on marine aquariums. I am doing alot of research and stuff, and this sounds so cool! I think I will get a 10 gallon, not sure yet. I would like it if anyone can reccomend some peaceful snails that don't spread like wildfire, and will do well in a very small tank. I would also like snails that aren't likely to get eaten!! LOL! I will continue my research, and hopefully figure out how I want to set up my tank.


SW snails do not breed very often, and if they do the offspring is usually consumed and the eggs are very visable. Look on the suggestions I listed. 
Astreas are great for Veggie matter. I would get 5.
Nassarius are great for eating up leftover food, and stay in the sand. I would get 2.
Ceriths and Nerites are nice also.

The only time they should get eaten is if you introduce non-reef safe fish/inverts, or have hermits that don't have extra shells to switch into.



veganchick said:


> Oh, and cody, you said clownfish would be ok in a 10 gallon, but I thought they needed a minimum of 30g


Not true, for False Percs and True Percs that is. Maroon, Tomato, Clarkii, etc, yes. Percs stay under or near 3", and a pair is fine in a 10G. I have one along with a YWG in my 10G.



Pasfur said:


> Just one point. Regardless of what type of tank you want, the basics of how to maintain the proper water chemistry do not change. You want an aragonite sand bed, live rock, and a protein skimmer. This will be the basics of every marine aquarium you set up, regardless of size. (For aquariums under 20 gallons, activated carbon could be used instead of a protein skimmer, assuming regular water changes.)


Great point.



aquakid said:


> Ok i like the blue damsel idea
> 
> I would recommend
> 
> ...


No Turbo Snails. They get too large for a 10G, and will knock down your livestock. 
Like I said, Damsels are the Devil's fish. No other answers.
Firefish are great, you could get one.
CC Star are terrible. They will attack fish, corals, and inverts.
Hermits are not needed are are just lazy 90% of the time. Fun to watch, though.
Good call on the goby.


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## veganchick (Jan 10, 2009)

Thanks!


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## Cody (Dec 22, 2007)

veganchick said:


> Ok, I did some research and certain kinds of clownfish need bigger tanks than others. What do you think about a 10 gallon with a small clownfish, and a damsel of some sort?


And DO NOT get a Damsel, especially in a 10G with another specie of Damsel (yes, clowns are Damsels). They will attack and harass the others constantly, and then good luck trying to get it out after it is in. You can have one alone, if you want.

Be sure to not add any fish untill 2-3 months AFTER the cycle. CUC goes first. Second fish is 8+ months in.


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## Cody (Dec 22, 2007)

veganchick said:


> Chocolate chip starfish are super pretty!! They looked kinda big tho..... They would be ok in a 10 gallon?


If you don't want fish, inverts, or corals, and only the CC star, then yes.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

I would suggest just a single Yellow Tail or Blue Damsel, along with a few hermit crabs and snails. Add 6 or 7 pounds of NICE QUALITY live rock and you will have a very fun display that is full of life. Great for a 10 gallon. Add a small hang on filter with activated carbon and you are set.


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## veganchick (Jan 10, 2009)

Cody said:


> If you don't want fish, inverts, or corals, and only the CC star, then yes.


ohhhh.... nevermind then


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## veganchick (Jan 10, 2009)

Cody said:


> And DO NOT get a Damsel, especially in a 10G with another specie of Damsel (yes, clowns are Damsels). They will attack and harass the others constantly, and then good luck trying to get it out after it is in. You can have one alone, if you want.
> 
> Be sure to not add any fish untill 2-3 months AFTER the cycle. CUC goes first. Second fish is 8+ months in.


Wait, so I can't have 2 clowns in a 10g together? (if they are the only fish in the tank)?????:-?


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## Cody (Dec 22, 2007)

veganchick said:


> Wait, so I can't have 2 clowns in a 10g together? (if they are the only fish in the tank)?????:-?


You can have two clowns. I meant one Clownfish with one "regular" Damsel. You would need to add the two Clowns at the same time, though, so aggression stays down and they will hopefully pair up. I had two for about 1-2 months, but one refused to eat. I still have the other, and he is by far my favorite fish I have ever owned.


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## veganchick (Jan 10, 2009)

Ok, now idk what I'm gonna get yet, anything from a 10g-20g. supposing I get a 20 gallon are there any other fish or inverts that will go with 2 clown fish ??? (20 long


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## Cody (Dec 22, 2007)

There is a lot, actually. Way too many to list because we don't know what else you plan on doing. Figuring out all of your filltration methods, lighting, etc, is way more important than figuring out fish. Do you have any ideas on that yet?


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## veganchick (Jan 10, 2009)

OOOOOO!!! That makes me happy! I didn't know if there was anthing exept snails!! (I still want snails with my fishies, I just want other critters too!! SeaClear™ 20 Gallon Eclipse 2 Compatible Aquariums - Aquariums - Fish - PetSmart

this is the tank i REALLY want. I will get some reall good lighting, not sure exactly what yet, and I am planning on live rocks and coral. don't worry. I would get an fish are coral or any of that till I have done LOADS more research!!!


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## Cody (Dec 22, 2007)

Just a word of advice - don't get that tank. For one, it isn't a 20 long. Two, it is acrylic. You do not want an acrylic tank unless you like scratches on your tank, and all over. Third, why would you spend $150 on a 20G tank that is horrible for Sw when you can get a 20L for $20-50, and then spraypaint the back.


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

agreed. even keeping an eye out on www.craigslist.com can offer a place to find a used tank cheap


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## Kellsindell (Sep 15, 2008)

Agreed, if you do want corals look for something that's reef ready. Also the biocubes or aquapod are good tanks for a quick setup. Cody and onfish could tell which is the better as i've never used them... I made the mistake of getting a NON-RR 25g tall tank for $600... and that was just the tank and stand. No canopy, lights of anysort, nothing... I've learned, but it's a really pretty tank.


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

i personally would buy individual parts then get an AIO tank like a bio-cube. I feel you can find a 20gal tank for a good price, get good lights, even a sump for the same price if not cheaper as the 12 gallon setup which comes with PCs. just my 2 honest abes


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## Kellsindell (Sep 15, 2008)

I didn't say it was great advice... JK JK.. i know if you go to Petco, they have 20g long there for sell at $25-$35. It's just the tank. Then you can get a stand or build one for cheep too. Also get the filtration going and it not be a hang on or canister filter, and nothing with bio-balls and you've got a tank... (don't forget the powerheads).

I was just suggesting the AIO as a quick start...


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## veganchick (Jan 10, 2009)

Kellsindell said:


> I didn't say it was great advice... JK JK.. i know if you go to Petco, they have 20g long there for sell at $25-$35. It's just the tank. Then you can get a stand or build one for cheep too. Also get the filtration going and it not be a hang on or canister filter, and nothing with bio-balls and you've got a tank... (don't forget the powerheads).
> 
> I was just suggesting the AIO as a quick start...


Sounds good, but I *NEED *a lid nomatter what, I have a little brother, a 95 pound dog, and a cat who will eat all this fish in a day! Does the petco one come with a lid???


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

i personally would prefer seeing a hood with fan ports then a glass lid or for an AIO's sake, a plastic one.


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## Cody (Dec 22, 2007)

veganchick said:


> Sounds good, but I *NEED *a lid nomatter what, I have a little brother, a 95 pound dog, and a cat who will eat all this fish in a day! Does the petco one come with a lid???


There are a few main ways to do this.

1) Buy a glass top. Most common. Slows down Evaporation but increases heat. That is a problem in a small tank (which I experienced).
2) Screen Top. Heat stays out, but you have more evap. Blocks more light as well.
3) Eggcrate. Same as above.
4) A wood canopy, like onefish mentioned.

I have used 1, 2, and 4. A canopy is by far the best, with no glass/screen top for easy access. Topping off is easy too, so evap isn't a problem.


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## veganchick (Jan 10, 2009)

Thanks guys! Ok, so I have a long list of fish and inverts that I would like...there are 2 kinds that I REALLY want!! So anyway I know that some of these guys are too big for a 20 gallon, or unfit for a begginer, but I just want your oppinion on a tank setup with maybe 2 or three of these guys! Thanks!!
Yellow Tang
Striped sailfin tiger
Spotted Cardinal
Scooter Blenny
Mandarinfish
LOngnosed Hawk
_*LEMON GOBY I want one REALLY BAD!!!!
*_orange spotted coby
black cap Gramma 
big eye squirrel fish
cleaner wrasse
Dragon Wrasse
firefish
yellow headed jaw 
Yellow Sweet lips
African Pygmy Angel
LemonPeel Angel
_*COMMON/ PERCULA CLOWN!!!!! I WANT ONE REALLY BADLY!!!!
*_Blue Chromis
orange sea perch
sharp nosed puffer
Cleaner Shrimp
orange starfish

OK, thats my list, I know its really long..... sorry, there are sooo many I like. Ok, so first off I am going to say I would like to have 1 or 2 clownfish, and a Lemon goby. will anything I listed get along with them??? THANKS!!!


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## Cody (Dec 22, 2007)

A lot of these names I am unfamiliar with... maybe because of spelling or because I just don't know. 

*Yellow Tang *- Nope.
*Striped sailfin tiger* -Trigger? Nope.
*Spotted Cardinal* - Pajama? Should work, but will only accept frozen/live foods.
*Scooter Blenny *- If you wait for your tank to mature for 1 year and find one that actually eats prepared food. Only some will take frozen, and I have never seen one take dry.
*Mandarinfish* - Same as above, but harder to keep.
*LOngnosed Hawk* - I wouldn't do it in a 20.
*LEMON GOBY* - Lemon Goby? Like the really really rare thing, or a Clown Goby?
*orange spotted coby* - They are one of the larger gobies, and wont be good in a 20 long term. Look up Yellow Watchman if you like that look.
*black cap Gramma* - Blackcap Basslet? Should work, but they are very shy.
*big eye squirrel fish* - No idea, but Squirrelfish (I think) should not go in a 20G.
*cleaner wrasse *- Maybe.
*Dragon Wrasse* - Not at all. 
*firefish* - One can work
*yellow headed jaw* - Either have a DSB or make a PVC burrow, and it works.
*Yellow Sweet lips* - What?
*African Pygmy Angel* - Not sure, but many pygmy angels are not reef safe at all.
*LemonPeel Angel *- Nope.
*COMMON/ PERCULA CLOWN* - There is no common clown. You can have Percula or Ocellaris.
*Blue Chromis* - One may work. 
*orange sea perch* - No idea.
*sharp nosed puffer* - Nope.
*Cleaner Shrimp* - Yep.
*orange starfish* - Red Reef star?

You can have 1-4 (or 5, but not recommended) depending on your WC schedule, your bioload, your LR/LS lbs, your skimmer, etc.


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## veganchick (Jan 10, 2009)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2087/1751046778_3868763b08.jpg?v=0 this type of lemon goby..... i didn't think they r rare


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## Cody (Dec 22, 2007)

That is a Citron Clown Goby. They should work out, if the one you get eats. Make sure you see it eat if you purchase it.


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## veganchick (Jan 10, 2009)

Cody said:


> That is a Citron Clown Goby. They should work out, if the one you get eats. Make sure you see it eat if you purchase it.


ok, i didn't know they were picky eaters...... Idk if I should get them if thats the case. What fish & inverts would you reccomend with 2 clownfish in a 20g?


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## Cody (Dec 22, 2007)

Inverts: Run-of-the-mill CUC. 1 Shrimp of your choice. Maybe a Flower Anemone if you feed it and if you can find one.

Fish: 
-1 Firefish
-1 Shrimp Goby of some sort
-1 or a pair of Nano Gobies of some sort
-1 Blackcap Basslet
-1 Royal Gramma

From your list. Not all of this, though. One, or maybe two if your tank has matured.


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## veganchick (Jan 10, 2009)

ok, how is this for a 20g tank setup?
dry sand
not sure about lighting yet, how much do i need?
heater and filter
fake plants
caves and hiding places
10-15 pounds of live rock
1 neon goby
2 percula clownfish
Flower Anemone
royal grandma what do you think?? ok?


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## Cody (Dec 22, 2007)

Ok, are you doing reef or FOWLR?

*dry sand* - Yep. 10 to 20lbs is good if you just want it for looks as I do. 3-4" is better to acheive a DSB.
*not sure about lighting yet, how much do i need?* - All depends.
*heater and filter* - 50W heater. Filter is not needed. You need powerheads with water changes. Your LR is your main filtration.
*fake plants* - EEEEEEWWWWW!!! Not needed at all.
*caves and hiding places* - See above. LR provides all of this.
*10-15 pounds of live rock* - More like 20-40lbs for idea filtration.
*1 neon goby* - Good.
*2 percula clownfish* - Good.
*Flower Anemone* - If you can find one. They are *extremely* hard to come by in LFS's. I got mine as a hitchiker, and love it.
*royal grandma* - Gramma, not Grandma. Lol. 

If it was me, I would add fish like this:
-Wait 1-2 months for cycle.
-Right after, CUC. Gradual increase of that over 1.5 months.
-Corals, if you will get some.
-Fish at at least 3-4 months. I would get either the Neon or the Clowns first. 
-Third fish at month 8, if everything is fine.
-Fourth fish at a year, if everything is fine.


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## veganchick (Jan 10, 2009)

Cody said:


> Ok, are you doing reef or FOWLR?
> 
> *dry sand* - Yep. 10 to 20lbs is good if you just want it for looks as I do. 3-4" is better to acheive a DSB.
> *not sure about lighting yet, how much do i need?* - All depends.
> ...


lol.... errrr sorr about that! I feel like a huge retard! Thanks for the advice, I think I'll get the clowns first, then neon, then gramma.... is it bad if I use a filter and live rocks?


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## Cody (Dec 22, 2007)

It isn't really bad. It just isn't needed, and can make your tank worse. Unless you make a HOB into a fuge, then don't do it. Bio-wheels and the like are nitrate factories, and sponges need to be changed/rinsed daily if you do that. Two powerheads, LR and LS is all your filtration along with weekly water changes.


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## veganchick (Jan 10, 2009)

ok, thanks 4 all ur help!!!


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Cody said:


> *10-15 pounds of live rock* - More like 20-40lbs for idea filtration.


Remember folks, pounds is a unit of measure determined by mass. The density of the rock you select does not correlate with the quality of rock and its ability to serve as a biofilter.

If you are buying Fiji rock, for example, you will probably only need 1/2 pound per gallon, because the pieces of rock are much larger, more porous, and less dense. 

However, if you are buying from the Caribbean, then you probably want 2 pounds per gallon, because the rock is very dense.

So, lets change the future of this hobby. Lets change this tried and wrong rule of thumb. Lets talk about proper water flow and structure of our live rock display. Lets talk about the quality of our live rock selection. Lets say something meaningful and helpful, rather than dumb down our answers for the newby.

Sorry Cody. Not a personal attack buddy. This is just one of my old pet pieves and I had a horrible day at work. ;-) (After a horrible day this is a nice place to relax.)


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## Kellsindell (Sep 15, 2008)

That's an interesting premis Pasfur... i like it. Perhaps you could vent this pet peve in a Thread about LR and where to get and not to get it from start as well as density and potential preditors that may come with the LR as well as a removal of certan(of course not all) pests that are common. That would be extremly benifecial and i know nothing about this area, so it'll be a good thing for you to do for even the more experianced hobbiest.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

I'll put something together on that Kells. It would benefit me as well as I search for a vendor to purchase my live rock from later this year.


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## veganchick (Jan 10, 2009)

Thanks guys!


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