# Angel Question



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

Hi. This is my 1st posting on the forum but hopefully not my last. I have set up an saltwater tank in my family room and its been up and running since late last July. Currently after much trial and error and a prolonged trip overseas (work related) I currently have my tank where I want it almost. Currently its an 85 gal tank with about 20-30lbs of live rock I'd estimate on live sand and substrate run by a canister filter and also with a UV sterilizer and Red Sea HangOn protien skimmer. All has been up and running for awhile now wih the UV filter the most recently added...oh no I have added a wave circulator about 2 months ago to add some current.

As for fish, currently have a med sized Purple tang, a regal/clown tang, a small maron clownfish, and a small/med sized P. Asfur which all get along well so far over the past 30-45 days. Want to add another angel and am thinking about an H. ciliaris (Queen Angel) or Clarion Angel or Passer Angel to the tank. I've tried two Niger Trigger both of whom died within a week however no problems with the current inhabitants. Also am thinking of a dwarf angel such as a Coral Beauty or Lemon Peel Angel, maybe a Flame. Any big no-no's or problems that should I be aware of or that may arise? 

I do have another 55 gal tank with a Yellow Tang, a reg Foxface, and I think a med Blue Angel which was passed off as as a Queen to me about 1-2 weeks ago. Also have a few blue chromis and two small clownfish (percula and clarki) but am not adding anymore to that other than an invertabrate (hermit crab) or two. 

Anyway any advise is appreciated!


----------



## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

welcome to the forum.
i dont have experience with angels as the majority are not reef safe, or i should say reef cationable. 

as for your setup there are a few raised eyebrows. 30 pounds of live rock isnt anywhere near enough. you should have ( and im estimating here ) around 85-150 pounds. live rock, flow and a quality protien skimmer is the basics of saltwater filtration. this in tandem with proper feeding practices, an occasional small water change and optional a sump/refugium with macro algae like chaeto, carbon/phosban reactors, a deep sand bed ( which brings up the question of what you are using as a substrate and how many inches deep is it ) a UV, and i never suggest a canister filter as these tend to trap debris and detritus unless cleaned very often (which at this point in time i prob. wouldnt do if i was you because you dont have much live rock) . some people use filter socks but i dont even suggest them as these need to be cleaned very frequent. so bio balls, HOB filters, canister filters, under gravel filters all trap debris and cause nutrient spikes down the road, best avoided. yes, you can use them, but yes, there are better ways of doing things. i run a sump, skimmer, and have good flow (as mentioned above) and have 0ppm nitrates. 
i may be wrong but i cant recall hearing good things about the red sea skimmer. IMO a skimmer is the most important thing you can have for a saltwater fish tank. this is not an area to skimp on. reading online reviews on skimmer brands and models and asking around is a good idea to find one worth your time and money. it may also be a good idea to look for a local reefing club to find deals, meet people with the same interest, and learn new things. 
is the 55 a QT tank or just another setup? how much flow is in the tank, you said you added a wave circulater? brand/model? can you post your exact water parameters? ammonia, nitrate, nitrite, pH, salinity, temp, alk, ca and mag and what you used to test for them. what kind of water are you using? 


looking forward to pictures and again welcome to the forum.


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

I agree with the comments above. You certainly will want to add more liverock to handle the growing bioload. 80-125 pounds would be more normal for an 85 gallon aquarium. I'm not personally fond of the Prism skimmer line, but the real test is in the results. What are your Nitrate, alkalinity, and calcium readings?

As for your fish selection. I am unclear on what Tang you have when you say Regal/Clown. I have never heard the common name of Regal used for a Clown Tang (Acanthurus lineatus), but some old school hobbyists use the name Regal to mean Hippo, or Acanthurus hepatus. Which species do you have?

In any case, i think you are doing well with the current livestock. I have a lot of experience with angelfish, so let me share my thoughts. The P. asfur is near and dear to my heart, as you might guess from my screen name. I think you need to give some serious considerations for the long term plans on this fish, as they grow fast and produce a lot of waste. For comparision, I am still undecided on keeping a P. asfur in my 180 gallon, because i'm not so sure it is a good idea long term. I may decide on a Blue Face or Blue Girdled (Majestic) instead. 

In any case, given than you arleady have an established P. asfur in your aquarium, it would be a very poor idea to add another large angelfish. If you decide to add another angel, add a species from the Centropyge genus, such as the Coral Beauty, BiColor, Lemon Peel, etc. Angelfish from any other genus are likely to be at odds with the P. asfur. In my experience, aquariums less than 6 feet in length are best to only keep 1 angelfish. However, adding a Centropyge will give you the best odds of success.


----------



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

Hi. Thanks for the info. Here is my last few readings...I keep them on an Excel Spreadsheet to keep track of things.
I've included it at the bottom. I use one of the saltwater testing kits from my local store (test tubes and comparision cards). My skimmer is AquaC Remora Hang ON Skimmer using a Maxijet 1200 pump. I also have a Rio+ 600 pump running my UVS-11 UV sterilized. My cannister is a Fluval 405. This tank is a 85 gallon and is my 1st tank that has been up for about 1 yr. I do not check my Ca (don't know how); can you expound more? My wave circulator is Koralia 3 rated at 850 gph and they seem to like it pretty well. Heater is rated for 100gal so no problems there. I do have more than 30lbs of live rock with quite alot of live rock added which all the fish seem to nip at and graze on. Tank inhabitants are: 1 med sized Purple tang, 1 clown tang, 1 maron clownfish, and 1 med sized P. Asfur so far. Would like to add more activity to the tank however and an addtional fish (thus the attempt at the trigger) but a good hardy small pgymy angel would be preferable too. Am scared to add a wrase and a friend recommended a lionfish but I just don't think that's a good idea! Oh yeah I have 2-3 inches of live substrate/coral and an additional 2 inches of live sand in the tank (bought by the bag at local tropics store) and I've been using Red Sea Salt mix.

Tank #1 Log
10-May-098.21.0245.000.250.25 damsel death21-May-097.81.02520.000.250.25B utterfly death7-Jun-098.01.0255.000.000.00

As for tank #2 it consists of a 55 gal tank (separate) with 1 med Yellow Tang, 1 med Foxface, and 1med Blue/Queen Angel, 2 small clownfish (percula and clarki), and some very small blue/green chromis, and 1-2 blue leg hermit crabs. Not adding anything else to it. It two has the same cannister filter as above and airstone but no skimmer as of yet. I do have an inline Ionizer added to the water line from the cannister. You mention reef sumps...I've seen them but have no idea how to plug one into my existing setups or how to set one up? Which ones are best? My local shop has them in their main setups and their water always looks good and clean and their fish healthy but the hows and wheres not so sure. 

I'll stick with leaving off adding any new angelfish to my main tank. As for future plans a 180-200 gallon is my dream but am trying to wait until I move to my next duty station (am US military) next year to do that although wife's short vacation this weekend with the kids does give me opportunity to sneak one into the house and our master bedroom!  Hmm... decisions...decisions. However that brings up the biggest question that looms ahead. How do you move tanks and fish from one local to another or city to another when that happens? New thread I suppose. Here are pics of the tank before a few swaps and replacements to the team! 

PS I went to UofL Med school back in 95! Small world!


----------



## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

you can make a sump out of a used tank
http://www.fishforum.com/member-submitted-articles/understanding-sumps-15930/

eventually your going to want to remove the canister filters as they build up debris and cause problems. i also suggest a DIY sump and upgrading the skimmer. 

you have a total of a 3in. sand bed?


----------



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

Okay..thanks I'll check that out. I have a total of about 4-5 inches of sand and substrate on the bottom of the tank which you can see on the 2nd pic sort of I think. If I get rid of the cannister then what do I use for filtration at that point? I do clean them regularly..does that help?


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

The "filtration" on a marine aquarium is the live rock and protein skimmer. See my 180 for an example of this in action: http://www.fishforum.com/saltwater-fish-pictures-videos/pasfurs-180-reef-build-21979/
You have an Aqua Remora skimmer, which has a good reputation. We made the incorrect assumption that you have a Prism. I also think you have made a great decision by adding a UV Sterilizer to the setup. Tangs can be Ich magnets, and a UV will go a long way to help prevent disease.

I really think the set up of your main tank is excellent. The only questions I have are your fish selections, which will need more space in the near future. You have an appetite for fish that are difficult to keep and then you try to cram them into aquariums that are smaller than what is ideal. This is something that you need to recognize and be cautious about long term, because you will find yourself throwing away a lot of money on fish, when the outcome was somewhat predictable. Your biggest immediate concern is the Blue Angel. A 55 gallon tank will cause developmental problems with this fish, especially on a system which does not utilize a protein skimmer.

Moving on, lets talk about calcium for a second. So many long term problems with marine aquariums are a result of the improper management of alkalinity, and specifically calcium. Every marine aquarium, be it fish only, FOWLR, or reef, needs proper regulation of alkalinity and calcium. The simplest reason for this, without getting into a lot of chemistry, is that "saltwater" is not "seawater" unless the ions that make up saltwater are in the correct proportion to each other to mimic that of natural seawater.

The solotuion for the at home fishkeeper is to maintain alkalinity between 8 and 12 DKH, and to maintain calcium between 400 and 460 ppm. This is accomplished by testing the water and adding the necessary supplements. I personally use Kent Marine Super Buffer DKH and Kent Marine Liquid Calcium supplement. Here is the simple way to interpret your test results:
Calcium low, alkalinity high.... add calcium.
Calcium low, alkalinity low.... add calcium and buffer.
Calcium high, alkalinity high... wait until additives are needed.
Calcium high, alkalinity low... you need a water change to replenish magnesium, borate, and other buffering ions.

As you can see, the testing of alkalinity and calcium are not only good for the overall stability of the aquarium, but they also help guide you to how frequently you need to be doing water changes on your marine system.


----------



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

Pasfur said:


> The "filtration" on a marine aquarium is the live rock and protein skimmer. See my 180 for an example of this in action: http://www.fishforum.com/saltwater-fish-pictures-videos/pasfurs-180-reef-build-21979/
> You have an Aqua Remora skimmer, which has a good reputation. We made the incorrect assumption that you have a Prism. I also think you have made a great decision by adding a UV Sterilizer to the setup. Tangs can be Ich magnets, and a UV will go a long way to help prevent disease.
> 
> I really think the set up of your main tank is excellent. The only questions I have are your fish selections, which will need more space in the near future. You have an appetite for fish that are difficult to keep and then you try to cram them into aquariums that are smaller than what is ideal. This is something that you need to recognize and be cautious about long term, because you will find yourself throwing away a lot of money on fish, when the outcome was somewhat predictable. Your biggest immediate concern is the Blue Angel. A 55 gallon tank will cause developmental problems with this fish, especially on a system which does not utilize a protein skimmer.
> ...


Oh okay Asfur. Thanks. So would it be better to add a sump to the 55gal tank OR protien skimmer now. I do plan on transplanting the Blue Angel to a larger tank in about 10months when I move to San Antonio. Am looking at two tanks there 90gal and 120-150 if possible. But am holding off on that now as I would have to move the fish anyways. Hmm sounds like you're saying I should hold off adding any more fish to either tank huh? 

I do use: Kent Buffer Kdh and Kent Essential Elements to add to the tank with my water changes. But I'll get a Calcium test kit soonest and check out your sump article as well. Would you recommend a UV sterilzer too for the 55gal tank? Anything else for the 1st tank (main set up) needed?


----------



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

Here are some of my friendly inhabitatants!  My clown tang kept hiding in his usual space; however both my purple tang and my Asfur angel seemed to be swimming along happily. My Blue angel seems to have calmed down my yellow tang's previous racious behavior toward all other inhabitants other than the clownfish. I also re-arranged all the rock in the tank this time and kept them light restricted for about 6-10 hrs after adding the Blue Angel this time. Seems to have worked so far.

Thinking I may need some more live rock and the LFS has acquacultured life rock too which I think my tangs in both tanks would like. Wonder how different it is from other live rock other than the live green flora growing from it. I may pickup a few starfish and cleaner shrimp tomorrow.


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Essential Elements is a trace element supplement. You are correct in that you will need to add Calcium separately, after testing to confirm the current calcium levels. By the way, do you test alkalinity?

Other than the protein skimmer on the 55, and a UV if you like, I see nothing else pressing at this time. Nice looking fish. Good luck with the Clown Tang! How long have you had it?


----------



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

Pasfur Another ops. Haven't been testing alkalinity. Just Ph, Nitrate, Nitrite, Amonia and Sp Gravity reguarly. I guess that is my next stop tomorrow at the LFS. Nothing I read really stressed Calcium and Alkalinity. Am thinking of ordering a CPR Bak Pak 2 along with an appropriate UV when I get back in town (am taking a trip to Hawaii in 2 days...will try NOT to bring home any fish! LOL) So I guess another parameter needs to be added to my spreadsheet huh? What do you you suppose to use to adjust the alkalninity and Ca if levels are off?

As for my fish..thanks. My Blue Angel is about 2 weeks old now as is one of the Clowns (clarki). The Clown Tang is the veteran of the main 85 gal tank. He's been around in there since I got back from Afghanistan in Jan and inhabits a little cave I've made with live rock and some false rock which you see in my signature...he's always poking out of there watching what is going on. Did not know much about him before finding him at my LFS and getting him as he seemed pretty unusual and colorful. So far he's proved hardier than 2 Niger triggers I've added to the tank recently and 1 flame angel! Hope it stays that way!


----------



## RegalAngel (Apr 22, 2009)

How's your Chemistry?

Chemistry and the Aquarium1

Chemistry and the Aquarium2


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

I personal do not test for ammonia or nitrite at all in an established aquarium. I test specific gravity every month or so and make adjustments for salt creep, but this is rare. If you maintain alkalinity correctly, you will also rarely have pH problems, so I only test pH on a monthly basis. 

Nitrate is very usefull, but most of my tanks run Nitrate levels near zero. I do not utilize biological filtration in my aquariums, other than live rock, so more organic waste is removed by the skimmer. The Nitrates that do develop are generally removed by the sand bed or live rock.

So basically, my method of marine aquarium care depends almost exclusively on the testing and adjusting of alkalinity and calcium. I use Kent Marine Super Buffer DKH and Kent Marine Liquid Calcium supplement. I dose as necessary to keep alkalinity at 8-12 DKH and Calcium at 400 - 460 ppm. In the rare event that Calcium is high, but alkalinity is low, I do a series of partial water changes, because this could indicate a deficiency in other buffering ions. 

Generally speaking, my 58 reef receives a buffer additive on Wednesday & Saturday, and a Calcium addition daily. I test every Sunday to confirm my dosage is maintaining the levels I desire. 

My 180 FOWLR receives a buffer & Calcium additive every Saturday. I have to test prior to the addition on this tank, because I am sill adding livestock and the coraline algae growth is spreading and consuming Calcium at a more rapid level each week. Eventually this tank will also become somewhat predictable as well. For the record, I like to maintain alkalinity on my FOWLR aquariums at 14 DKH. 

I find that using alkalinity and calcium results to predict the stability of your aquairum environment and necessary maintainance is much more reliable than ammonia and nitrite readings. This is pretty obvious when you think about it, because by the time you get any reading of ammonia or nitrite, or any swing in pH, it means that you had a problem all along that you never corrected. I'd rather prevent the problem, as opposed to reacting after the situation develops.


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

I fogot to tell you, I think the CPR skimmer line is very poor. I have a dual CPR unit on my 38 gallon QUARANTINE tank, because the quality is so poor I don't trust it to a real aquarium. The only exception is a Fish ONLY tank WITHOUT live rock.


----------



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

Pasfur said:


> I fogot to tell you, I think the CPR skimmer line is very poor. I have a dual CPR unit on my 38 gallon QUARANTINE tank, because the quality is so poor I don't trust it to a real aquarium. The only exception is a Fish ONLY tank WITHOUT live rock.


PAsfur
Thanks alot. I just picked up an Alkalinity test kit and some Kent calcium supplement and I will test tonight before I leave on vacation. However I just noticed a problem with the main tank. I've added two Niger triggers (both at separate times) and both died within 24-36 hrs of their introduction to the main tank. Each was normal acting and quarantined at the LFS tank for me for about 10 days. I then added 3 green chromis yesterday and all of them died overnight. Bodies are intact but fish died. However the original inhabitants the clown tang, marroon clownfish, and purple tang all are doing well in the tank, acting normally and feeding. I tested the pH and it is 8.2, nitrate=5.0, nitrite=0.00 and Anomia=0.00. Specific gravity=1.025. Water temp 78-82 degrees. I just did a 5-10% water change last night with 5.5 gallons of fresh seawater but the last green chromis was still dead when I got home from work this PM. However like I said the other inhabitants are okay. I also have 2 sand sifters starfish who are doing fine. I had a few emporer crabs and hermit crabs prior to that and they died about 1 month ago. Anyway will take your advice on the Ca and alkalinity levels and let you know what results I get but any thoughts or advice is welcome. hHaven't experienced this before and would hate to loose my asfur angel, and purple tang for some unforseen problem. 

Thanks again for all the advice! :-?


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Rob,

Just for kicks, lets make the assumption that there is nothing wrong with the aquarium water, AND that the existing fish in your aquarium are not attacking the Niger Trigger or Chromis.

So, we have to look at what other changes occurred over the 24 hour period from when you purchased the fish to when the fish died.

Describe the LFS bagging, and your transportation and acclimation procedures. 

Mark


----------



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

Pasfur said:


> Rob,
> 
> Just for kicks, lets make the assumption that there is nothing wrong with the aquarium water, AND that the existing fish in your aquarium are not attacking the Niger Trigger or Chromis.
> 
> ...


Just got back from TDY to Hawaii so Aloha and sorry for the delayed reply!  Fish there were awesome...wish I could have brought some back for sure! 

Okay 1st thing...all current fish in both tanks are alive and well after a 10+ days absence. Did a 5 gal water change on the 80gal tank before I left and added some more sand to increased the sand base to 4" and set both tanks on autofeeders twice daily with flake and pellet. P Asfur, Purple Tang, Clown Tang and marron clownfish were all happily awaiting me in tank #1 when I got in this AM. 

Tank #2 same except for the water change; used the autofeeders and left the sand bed intact as it already has 4" worth of substrate. Blue/Queen Angel, Yellow tang, Foxface, Clarki & Percula clownfish are doing well along with small damsel and 3 chromis. Sand sifter starfish are also doing well in both 
tanks. So that's the update there on current status.

I tested the water later this afternoon.

Tank #1 Specific grav=1.023, Alkalinity=High 2.9-3.6, Ph=8.2, Amonia=0.0 ppm, Nitrate=20, Nitrite=0.25 water temp=78-80 C

Tank #2 Specific grav=1.026, Alkalinity=High 2.9-3.6, Ph=8.6, Amonia=1.0 ppm, Nitrate=20, Nitrite=0.0 water temp=78-80 C
As with the lost fish one trigger was purchased at local PetCo fish store where he was caught with net and put in tank water and bagged. No air was added. I drove from PetCo home 20min drive roughly and acclimated the fish over 30mins to my tank. Floated the fish for 10mins in local tank water then added him to bucket and added same amt of my tank water for another 10mins then fish added to tank. Fish initially did okay, swam around and looked alert. Other fish didn't bother him too much that I saw or noticed. Being a trigger he did go hide in the rocks alot but that happened initially with my 1st tigger I had before. With that one I left for 5 months to deploy to Afghanistan and he too was hidding; came home 5 mo later and the same trigger was all over the place, swimming, active and all. Anyway the next morning the new Niger triger was dead at the bottom of the tank. Other main fish (Asfur, P tang, Clown tang, Marron clownfish) were all okay. Thought it maybe the PetCo so I went to my LFS which is where I get the majority of my fish to include (Blue/Queen angel, P Asfur, P Tang, starfish) and got a medium Niger Trigger from them. Acclimated him similarly and he too died within 36hrs. As a test I then got 3 small chromis (which are nearly invincible) and added them to the tank. All died within 48hrs. Again local fish (Asfur, P tang, Clown tang, Marron clownfish) were doing well! They still are. 

Like I've said I've tested the water and it looks okay. Don't have a method to check Calcium yet but am looking for a kit. So it seems to be the fish? That's my thought but could it be the water? What''s your thoughts? I'd be interested. I do have a 10 gal Quarriantine tank which I set up about 1.5 mo ago in the basement but stopped using it after a brown tang I bought died within 2 days in it that I got from PetCo. Is it the store or me being hasty/inpatient?


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

There is something missing still. More information that we are not getting. Niger Triggers are EXTREMELY easy to keep. You almost have to cook this fish for dinner if you want it to die. 

First, can you confirm that the Niger Trigger you are talking about is "Odonus niger" Triggers and Filefish Maybe we are not talking about the same fish.

Tell me about the trip home from the LFS. I am having images of a car ride home in 110 degree heat with a 3 year old child holding a plastic bag up in the air as you bounce around on a dirt road in your Convertible Jeep.

Describe how you pick out a fish to purchase. As we confident that you bought healthy fish to begin with?

By any chance did you test the water in the transport bag after you opened the bag? This is possibly an issue. Probably where we will find the problem.

I think you tank water is fine. The big 3, ammonia, nitrite, and pH are generally the cause of short term rapid deaths. Nitrate, calcium, and alkalinity are keys to long term success with existing livestock.

I would suggest that you begin using the quarantine again. Just test the water to ensure you are providing a high quality environment in the Q tank. For the record, the Powder Brown Tang is one of the most difficult to keep of all aquarium fish. You probably just bought a stressed fish.


----------



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

Pasfur said:


> There is something missing still. More information that we are not getting. Niger Triggers are EXTREMELY easy to keep. You almost have to cook this fish for dinner if you want it to die.
> 
> First, can you confirm that the Niger Trigger you are talking about is "Odonus niger" Triggers and Filefish Maybe we are not talking about the same fish.
> 
> ...


Hey P.Asfur
NO car ride home is in my airconditioned vehicle (no jeep; german sports car) in the passenger seat and was only a few minutes. Less than 45 mins max. Kids are 8 and 10 and don't get to hold the fish 90% of the time due to the kid sloshing the fish syndrome you mention previously seen.  Yes we are talking about Odonus niger x2 which have each expired in the main tank within 24-48 hrs.  As for picking them to purcchase I tried to pick the most active fish I can find/saw. No spots/tears in fins or signs of ich or disease. I did not test the bag water at all but it was 99% of the time the water from the LFS tank which the fish were doing fine in before purchase. Main tank always runs a little warmer than my other tank so I just adusted the temp to 75-78 on the heater.

Wife & I stopped by the LFS today after work and she got me 2 sandsifting starfish, 10+ blue leg hermits, and 2 cleaners shrimp which I distributed between the main tank and 2nd tank. Cleaner shrimp died within mins of introduction to main tank however blue leg hermits and starfish are doing okay and active. So now I am totally confused. Only thing different since last post was I added an appropriate amt of Kent Marine Pro Buffer to both tanks. Tank #2 is doing well; active and blue leg hermits and starfish are all active and okay. Maybe I should have added the cleaner shrimp to that tank (tried to save one of the ones from the main tank by a quick dip and transfer but to no avail). 

So do you really think it is the store water? As for now I am gonna check the quarrantine tank tomorrow and make sure it is up and running okay and add maybe some inexpensive chromis/damsels and a starfish and crab this week to see how they do before adding them to any of the tanks. 

What am I missing here? This is my most established tank and nothing seems to be in distress here otherwise? :-?


----------



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

I did have some green algae grown while I was gone and there is some what I believe is red algae blooming on my life rocks and my wave circulatro and some of my pumps but otherwise nothing new else has been added and each fish is still hanging out in their respective areas of the tank they have staked of for themselves. No erratic behavor or anything.


----------



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

Pasfur said:


> There is something missing still. More information that we are not getting. Niger Triggers are EXTREMELY easy to keep. You almost have to cook this fish for dinner if you want it to die.
> 
> First, can you confirm that the Niger Trigger you are talking about is "Odonus niger" Triggers and Filefish Maybe we are not talking about the same fish.
> 
> ...


Okay just did a 20% water change; took out 15 gallons and replaced it with fresh seawater mix with spot on ph, nitrate, nitrite and amonia levels as recommended. So far so good. No fish in distress and water looks clearer. Vacumed a bit of the sand bed as well and got any debris out of the tank that I could find. Plan is to let things ettle down for a bit and see what happens. Your thoughts?


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

If you can't think of any additional information that we have not discussed, then I suggest continuing to do 10% weekly water changes, wait 90 days, and then add new livestock. I am a strict believer in this 90 day rule, as far to many problems reoccur within a 6 to 8 week period, be it disease or other water issues.


----------



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

Pasfur said:


> If you can't think of any additional information that we have not discussed, then I suggest continuing to do 10% weekly water changes, wait 90 days, and then add new livestock. I am a strict believer in this 90 day rule, as far to many problems reoccur within a 6 to 8 week period, be it disease or other water issues.


Got it. Added 3 damsels (small ones); 1 survived and the water is stable. Will add some more live rock as it can only help buffer my water and try the regular water changes you suggest. We'll see how it goes I guess! :lol:


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

mdrobc13 said:


> Got it. Added 3 damsels (small ones); 1 survived and the water is stable. Will add some more live rock as it can only help buffer my water and try the regular water changes you suggest. :lol:


Just for clarification, live rock does not buffer the water. However, live rock processes organic waste, removing acids which cause a depletion of your buffers. Hence, the more live rock, the more rapid processing of waste. In any case, calcium replenishment and water changes will still be necessary to maintain a stable alkalinity, as determined by your test results.

Also, be careful how you evaluate the stability of your system. There are hundred of ions in saltwater, only a small few of which we test with a test kit. I think you are doing the right thing at this point by taking it slow and choosing not to add more fish until a series of what changes have been completed.


----------



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

P Asfur. Thanks for the help. Just did water change on Tue afternoon of 5.5 gallons (approx 5-10% change). Tested waterthe night prior and PH okay, Alk=high >2.9, Amonia=0.25, Nitrite=0.0, Nitrates=60 (high), temp=78 therefore the water change yesterday after work. 

Unfotunately I lost my clown tang last night!  RIP. Remaining fish are doing okay. Feeding and active. So I will leave them alone and continue my weekly 10% water changes for thru Aug like you suggest. Only other change was I added about 10-15 additional pounds of live aquacultured rock and a few hermits (doing well also). NO FISH. Thoughts?


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

mdrobc13 said:


> Unfotunately I lost my clown tang last night!


Ouch. How long did you keep him? Very difficult fish.


----------



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

Pasfur said:


> Ouch. How long did you keep him? Very difficult fish.


Didn't know that before I bought him unfortunately. Was one of those spur of the moment purchases when I saw him at the LFS and inquired and was told price and that they are really good fish. Good=pretty or good=hardy and easy to keep didn't know and wasn't provided that info. Sort of like when I bought a Potter's Angel when I 1st started my tank. He didn't last a week before he disappeared into my life rockwork never to be seen again! 

Opps to anwser your question; I had my Clown Tang about 6 months if I am correct. He was doing fine up until my recent water troubles/problems and would eat and swim without any problems and had inhabited a nice live/artificial rock cave which I had created in my tank and which he'd cleared out of other inhabitants! LOL 

Do you still think it is the water as my Purple Tang, Maroon Clown, lone damsel, and P.Asfur angel are all doing fine?


----------



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

Pasfur said:


> Ouch. How long did you keep him? Very difficult fish.


Hey Pasfur....a thought? Am still running Cannister's on BOTH my tanks along with Protien skimmers, airstone, and the Korella waver maker and UV sterilizer on the main tank. I run both Cannisters rated for 100gal Max flo rates (Brand I forgot but are equivalent to fluval 750 I think) with media which I clean monthly. Previously used them with freshwater tanks but am thinking should I try to find a small sump (space is an issue) to use and powerheads and switch over to that and just run the cannister's empty for flow and with polishing pad? OR should I just go and get powerheads and if so which kind should I go for. On both tanks space is limited below for a big huge sump so what size am I looking at here?

Thoughts?


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Rob,

I'm confuse by your question. What are you trying to improve? In other words, what outcome are you attempting to achieve by changing the current setup?

I personally do not recommend canister filters on marine aquariums. They are very efficient at trapping waste, which allow the waste to break down, introducing both nitrates and phosphates into the water. I would personally just remove the canister filter completely, or perhaps use it on a Quarantine tank, or even use it for a few hours each week running a diatom filter pad for water polishing and pathogen removal. 

I think with your aquarium the water is the only culprit I would consider. The existing livestock have slowly adjusted to the environment, but something is causing new fish to quickly perish. So yes, I would stick with the plan of a series of water changes over several months before adding new livestock.


----------



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

Pasfur said:


> Rob,
> 
> I'm confuse by your question. What are you trying to improve? In other words, what outcome are you attempting to achieve by changing the current setup?
> 
> ...


Hey P Asfur. Sorry for the confusion. What I mean was with my current setup should I go ahead and just A) get rid of the cannister filters? B) use them WITHOUT the media for water flow/mvmt only c) continue as I currently am using them with media but changing them out every month. d)look for small sumps to purchase and add to all 3 tanks! 

I now have 3 tanks (was in the process of starting up a 56 gallon corner upstairs in our guest/spare room) so that's alot of cannister filters to change out! Each tank has significant sand beds 4+ inches, 2 have skimmers, and all have at least 40-50lbs of live rock! As for the cannister filetrs I already have them as I was previously using them on my freshwater setups and didn't know that they were not good to use or inefficient for marine set ups which is why I'd been using them for the past 6-12+ months with my two initial setups. Since my previous chiclids did okay with them and they kept their tanks pretty clean/actually crystal clean I thought they'd be okay. Why do they advertise them on the box tho as good for marine setups and freshwater ones?

As for the main tank...all fish are still fine and I am planning to continue water changes and gentle feeding as discussed previously. My 2nd tank is doing great with the newly added skimmer (hang on back type) and cannister filter with current fish. Only thing I've added was a couple of more pounds of live rock acquacultured that my LFS got in. Any thoughts on that or is it just expensive fish food! LOL  

Thanks for the help!


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

There are certainly aspects of this hobby which are open to opinion and individual interpretation. Canister filters fall into this category. They do exactly what they advertise and they do it very well, which is to remove waste and polish water. Unfortunately, they don't tell you the "side effects" that come with this, which are excess Nitrate and Phosphate.

Now, if you are willing to do large water changes, say 20% or so weekly, then this might not be that big of an issue for you. Personally I think this is wasted effort and I prefer to use a Protein Skimmer to accomplish nutrient removal, without the negative side effects and wasted time & money on water changes.


----------



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

Pasfur said:


> There are certainly aspects of this hobby which are open to opinion and individual interpretation. Canister filters fall into this category. They do exactly what they advertise and they do it very well, which is to remove waste and polish water. Unfortunately, they don't tell you the "side effects" that come with this, which are excess Nitrate and Phosphate.
> 
> Now, if you are willing to do large water changes, say 20% or so weekly, then this might not be that big of an issue for you. Personally I think this is wasted effort and I prefer to use a Protein Skimmer to accomplish nutrient removal, without the negative side effects and wasted time & money on water changes.


No am not willing to change 20% of the water on each of three tanks weekly. That's more than a job...it's an adventure as they used to say! LOL Hmm. Neither of my tanks has an overflow built in (not reef tanks) so I think I will keep the cannister filters as they are paid for but run them without media and just the polishing pads and them service them monthly. That way it seems to be shorter and less intesive than purchasing and changing media every week on 3 different tanks. Wil continue the skimmers I am running on tank 1 and 2 and add one later on to tank 3 (newest one). 

On another note I guess a sump if I can find a compact one to fit in the available space on the new tank and tank1 & 2 may be an option. However neither tank is a reef tank so how do I go about doing so? From my research and reading the Sump article avail on the forum it looks as if my only option is an external prefilter box with a gravity sump below the system in the cabinet stand. Corrrect? Any options or recommendations? What do you think about these choices I've come across?

Skilter Filters

Aquarium Filtration: Rapids Pro Series Wet/Dry Filter Systems

Reef Aquarium Filtration: Eshopps Wet-Dry Filters

Aquarium Wet-Dry Filters: Marineland High Capacity Acrylic Sump Filtration Systems

Aquarium Filtration: All-Glass Aquarium MegaFlow Sump Filter Wet/Dry Filter


----------



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

Latest water testing numbers from today. Am now testing more thorougly parameters. Thoughts anyone?

Main tank #1 (problem one)
Ph=8.2, Calc=400, Alk=Normal 1.2-2.8, Phos=5.0, Amonia=0.0, Nitrate=20, Nitrite=0.0

Office tank #2 (healthy fish one)
Ph=7.8, Calc=380, Alk=Normal 1.2-2.8, Phos=1.0, Amonia=0.25, Nitrate=0.0, Nitrate=0.25

Guest Room tank #3 (New setup - NO FISH)
Ph=8.0, Calc=360, Alk=Normal 1.2-2.8, Phos=2.0, Amonia=0.25, Nitrate=20, Nitrite=0.0

All fish remaining in tank #1 Maroon clown and P. Ashur are doing well as is the sifting starfish and remaining hermit crab/blue legged. No further deaths.

Tank #2 other than a Clarki Clownfish now harrasing the Percula clown who was the original inhabitant; everyone else seem to be happy and thriving. Sump should be set up and running tomorrow AM.

Tank #3 setup now in week #3; NO FISH yet. Numbers look okay to start adding in fish yet soon? Anythoughts? Sump is up and running and so far doing good although not much skimmed from the skimmer. Sumps been running about 3 days now with about 4lbs of live rock added and bio-balls removed.

Hope to see some improved results and happier/healthier fish soon!


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

It sounds like things are settling down. My advice is continue to be patient on tank #1 and #2. When you think everything is ready for fish, wait another week.  You've had a lot of deaths and we want to be certain things are ready.

I noticed that #2 and #3 have calcium levels under 400ppm and lower pH levels. 7.8 especially is a scary number, because we do not know if this is the lowest daily reading or an average reading. Whenever you see test results such as these, with low pH, low calcium, and normal alkalinity, I would suggest you supplement calcium chloride and retest the next day. You will probably add your buffer as well after the 2nd test.


----------



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

Pasfur said:


> It sounds like things are settling down. My advice is continue to be patient on tank #1 and #2. When you think everything is ready for fish, wait another week.  You've had a lot of deaths and we want to be certain things are ready.
> 
> I noticed that #2 and #3 have calcium levels under 400ppm and lower pH levels. 7.8 especially is a scary number, because we do not know if this is the lowest daily reading or an average reading. Whenever you see test results such as these, with low pH, low calcium, and normal alkalinity, I would suggest you supplement calcium chloride and retest the next day. You will probably add your buffer as well after the 2nd test.


Hi Okay retested the water in the main tank #1 and results were:
ph=8.0, Calc=360, Alk=1.7-2.8 Hi Norm, Phos=5.0, Amonia=0.25, Nitrite=0.0, Nitrate=5-10. Looks like you're right and things are stabilizing. Add another staffish, and some blue legged hermit crabs and all are doing well and going about their business.

I went ahead yesterday and bought 2 small Hippo tangs about 1-2" each and added them yesterday 8/5 evening. Turned the lights off and fed the P.Asfur 1st. After some initial worrying and nervous moments they were still swimming and hidding up at the top of the tank near my skimmer and intake hoses and heater. Checked them before going to sleep and they were doing okay and have done well throughout the day. This evening they are swimming and ate flakes and being chased by the P.Asfur from his favorite lurking places as they investigate the tank. Maron clown is ignoring them. So so far so good. Will do another water change this weekend probably and monitor things closely. I do have this velvet red covering of what I believe is algae all over the rock and some of the sand...wondering if that's what it is. Any thoughts?

Tank #2 got the sump working properly; had a problem with my return pump. Bought a Magna 5 and its intake is higher than the min water level in the return sump so it was running dry almost and pumping faster into the tank than the overflow could keep up...kept loosing siphon in about 12-18 hrs. Even with an aqualifter pump. So I added a ball valve to be able to adjust flow back into the tank; drilled a siphon break into the return line in the tank and added an elbow to the Magna 5 return pump intake so it reaches down to <1/2 " water in the return outflow. Now things seem to be working well with good consistent return, no siphon breaks, and overflow box constantly filling. Also the Marineland 100 Sump Skimmer arrived today and put that into the sump (Oceanic Reef) and its working now. Fish in the tank are doing well; have had no deaths and added one sifting starfish and a few blue legged hermits 2 days ago as well. Korella 2 wave pump arriving next weekend to help water flow.

Tank #3 doing well. Sump working but like I said Fluval 405 has died. Won't maintain consistent pumping. Works for about 48hrs then no flow and just motor humming/vibration. Drain and re-start; prime and away it goes till it stops again a few hours later when I find no flow from it. Am not using any media other than some live rock in it and mostly for water flow. Korellia 2 wave pump also ordered to add to that tank to help out flow as well. Return pump in sump is still working okay. Quiet One 1200 and seems to be able to keep up with most of the flow. May upgrade but the AquaClear Slimline 60 Sump has limited space so the Magna Drives are too big to fit in the return section. Maybe a higher flow/gph pump upgrade from the Quiet one? Will retest water this weekend on tank #3. Added two emerald crabs and a few blue leg hermits and two sand sifting starfish on 8/5. All doing well. Yesterday 1st inhabitant added also Yellow Pygmy Angel which is doing well. No problems. Fed well in store on brine shirmp (I asked and they fed since he was a fairly new arrival) and had fed in the tank twice today. Exploring his surroundings and hidding appropriately when I come near! LOL 

So far so good...hope this continues and thanks for all the advice. Keep it comming.


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

On the Blue Hippo Tangs, don't be surprised if they spend a lot of time in hiding, sometimes even laying flat on the ground with no color. It takes several weeks to months for this fish to acclimate to new surroundings and feel comfortable.

On your new skimmer, it will take a week or so to "break in", so don't be to concerned with the results you achieve until after the break in period.

Glad to see things are going well.


----------



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

Pasfur said:


> On the Blue Hippo Tangs, don't be surprised if they spend a lot of time in hiding, sometimes even laying flat on the ground with no color. It takes several weeks to months for this fish to acclimate to new surroundings and feel comfortable.
> 
> On your new skimmer, it will take a week or so to "break in", so don't be to concerned with the results you achieve until after the break in period.
> 
> Glad to see things are going well.


Yes both Marineland 100 Skimmers are puting out nothing so far. No brown liquid filtrate like my HOB Aqua C does pretty regularly on my main tank. I guess they'll kick in at some point.

What do you think the red stuff is on the rocks and sand; algae? Should I remove it or will the fish gradully take care of it. It's kinda red velvety looking. Also added some algae in the return sections of my HOB Skimmer and in the 2 sumps too as last time I put it in th tank...the angels and tangs ate it pretty quickly! LOL 

Will post Tank #2 and #3 water quality #s later this weekend. What do you think about tank #1's recent post...any insight on what caused the deaths now that there are some more retrospective data/numbers and time to review?

So far no deaths and all are well although you're right the Hippo tangs are hidding most of the time when not being chased out of the P.Asfur's favorite cracks and crevices. LOL Am assuming he's gotten a little used to having most of the tank to himself with all the other recent deaths and sees himself as the justified SOLE survivor! LOL


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

I really think that pH is the primary culprit of what happened in your system #1. It is very difficult to look back sometimes, and an educated guess is what we have at best. The series of water changes you have done, and the patience to wait this out a bit, have probably allowed you to get past whatever the issue was. Just keep a very close eye on alkalinity and calcium stability going forward.

I think your algae is cynobacteria. "Red velvet" pretty much sums it up. Just wait it out, and possibly redirect water circulation towards the problem area.


----------



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

Pasfur said:


> I really think that pH is the primary culprit of what happened in your system #1. It is very difficult to look back sometimes, and an educated guess is what we have at best. The series of water changes you have done, and the patience to wait this out a bit, have probably allowed you to get past whatever the issue was. Just keep a very close eye on alkalinity and calcium stability going forward.
> 
> I think your algae is cynobacteria. "Red velvet" pretty much sums it up. Just wait it out, and possibly redirect water circulation towards the problem area.


What is cynobacteria? I thought it was algae


----------



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

Pasfur said:


> I really think that pH is the primary culprit of what happened in your system #1. It is very difficult to look back sometimes, and an educated guess is what we have at best. The series of water changes you have done, and the patience to wait this out a bit, have probably allowed you to get past whatever the issue was. Just keep a very close eye on alkalinity and calcium stability going forward.
> 
> I think your algae is cynobacteria. "Red velvet" pretty much sums it up. Just wait it out, and possibly redirect water circulation towards the problem area.


Tank #2 doing well. Sump runing; no further breaks since I switched the lines on the Aqualifter pump...seems to have had them reversed thus the frequent siphon breaks in the CPR overflow after 10-12 hrs. No fish deaths. All doing well; rearrange sump return a little to min bubbles and increase current flow. Still waiting on Korellia 2 arrives next week. Water tesiting was: Sp grav=1.026 PH=7.8, Calc=360, Phos=5.0, Alk=1.7-2.8 N, Amonia=0.0, Nitrate=0.0, Nitrite=0.0.

Tank #3 the new one is doing well. Starting week #4 since set up. Single new inhabitant False Lemonpeel Angel is doing fine. Investigating his new surroundings and hiding when he sees me. Sump is working well; no breaks. Starfish are all over the sand and on the glass too. Water test this PM was: sp grav=1.024, Ph=8.4, Phos=1.0, Calc=360, Amonia=0.25, Alk=1.7-2.8, Nitrate=0.0, Nitrite=0.0.

So I guess after 3 weeks plus of water changes and the addition of two sumps and no new livestock things maybe looking better. Oh yeah and alot of live rock too! LOL I guess I should continue the changes now albeit less frequently and monitor the water quality and sump status.  Anything else?

Now does anyone know where I can find a nice small juvenile French Angel for the new tank? LOL or a Cortez angel?


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Hey Rob, can you do me a favor going forward and refer to the tank size when you say the tank number? Something like this: "Tank #2, 55 gallons". I know we've been talking for a while now, but there are so many different people on here the small details get lost. I have to keep going back and rereading all of our threads to remind myself which tank size is which! You could also just update your signature to include a very brief tank summary.

The Cortez Angel has become increasingly difficult to find. It is one of my favorites, but becoming rare. The color of this fish changes as it matures, so you could consider another species that looks similar as a juvinile, but more attractive as an adult. The Koran Angel and Emperor Angel both fit this need and are more readily available.

The French Angel grows very large, very fast, producing ridiculous amounts of waste in the process. I would personally avoid this fish. Also, your "False Lemonpeel Angelfish", more often called the Heraldi Angelfish, could cause issues when another Angelfish is introduced. You have a Centropyge genus of angelfish, so adding a Pomacanthus genus, such as those being discussed above, does give you a good opportunity of success, but there is always risk. Personally, I would do it, and I would add an Emperor Angel.

All of this depends on the tank size of #3, which I was unable to find and I can't remember. You need at least 125 gallons to pull this off, otherwise forget about it.


----------



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

Pasfur said:


> Hey Rob, can you do me a favor going forward and refer to the tank size when you say the tank number? Something like this: "Tank #2, 55 gallons". I know we've been talking for a while now, but there are so many different people on here the small details get lost. I have to keep going back and rereading all of our threads to remind myself which tank size is which! You could also just update your signature to include a very brief tank summary.
> 
> The Cortez Angel has become increasingly difficult to find. It is one of my favorites, but becoming rare. The color of this fish changes as it matures, so you could consider another species that looks similar as a juvinile, but more attractive as an adult. The Koran Angel and Emperor Angel both fit this need and are more readily available.
> 
> ...


Tank #3 is a 56 gal corner tank I just got. Tank #1 is my 80 gal main tank and Tank #2 is my 55 gal office tank. Sorry about that. 

Yeah I am thinking of adding may be a few tangs (yellow eyed) or maybe brown tangs. I had a Powder blue tang which I loved but he didn't last long and died. I hear they are kinda delicate. The French Angel I bought was sick and a poor purchase (he was pale and had ragged fins...I guess I was SO excited to finally find one thus the purchase thinking I could nurse him back to health) But I didn't know that they are such messy and involved as you seem to indicate. An Emperor Angel huh? Same family as a Koran Angel right?

I do plan to upgrade to a 180gal tank but that won't be until my PCS move to Texas next May. Am still trying to figure out how in god's name I'll get all my fish down there alive and with minimal trauma when the time comes as movers don't do live fish and tanks I am sure! LOL


----------



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

Tank #3 (56gal guest room new tank) Added a false lemonpeel tang which died after 3 days. Still think it is probably too new to start adding sensitive fish to this tank and will give it another few weeks and a water change or two. Sump is working well so far Skimmer producing some foam. 

Hippo tangs in Tank #1 (80g main tank - problem tank) are doing well and happy..when not being chased by P.Asfur from time to time. No harm done although. Cleaned up red cynobacteria in the sand and some rocks yesterday. 

Tank #2 (office tank 55g) still stable. No deaths. Good water quality. Ph adjusting/weill re-check. Sump stable.

Will add some more snails and sand sifters when I get some more time to keep things clear/clean!


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Rob, I am still shocked by the large number of deaths you are having occur. Are you using multiple LFS's, or just the same shop?


----------



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

Pasfur said:


> Rob, I am still shocked by the large number of deaths you are having occur. Are you using multiple LFS's, or just the same shop?


Back to your Q..Using multiple LFS's. Most recent near Baltimorel, PetCo 2 miles from the house, another LFS near base. Mostly have been using the 1st and last recently..although all recent deaths all seem to have come from the same LFS in Baltimore (tang, False lemon peel, previous Tiggers in 1st/Main tank) now that you mention it. I haven't used the Baltimore LFS really that much until June/July time frame since it was farther away from work. LFS near base was only 10 mins away prior to that and have used that one almost exclusively up until that point. Most of those fish are alive and well in Tank #2 and the deaths we 1st talked about at the start of this post were in the Main tank 80gal. Those were a combo of new additions and old timers and like you said I think it was the water that was the problem. It is wierd tho as I added TWO keyhole tangs to tank #3 and 1 died; the other alive and doing well? Both were same size but I was assured they'd be okay together by Baltimore LFS staff. Lemonpeel I couldn't find and assumed he was still hidding behing some live rock as he had been and didn't find him deceased untill much later after adding the Keyhole/yellow eye tangs. These were the 1st fish added to the system..could it just have been new tank syndrome? Water was pretty good when tested over 3rd week of setup. Used live sand/live rock, and also pre-mixed salt water from store and also some from my "good" tank (#55gal office with all the live and happy fish) in setup. Anyway the tank#3 is y what 5 weeks old now I think so it should be okay for livestock, right?

Re-Water tested last PM on Guest tank #3 56gal corner aq:
ph=8.0, Pho=1.0, Alk=1.7-2.8 Normal, Ca=340, Nitrate=5-10, NH3=0.0, Nitrite=0.25 sgrav=1.026. 
Sump has NO bioballs, about 2-4lbs of live rock replaced where the bioballs were and Marineland Advanced100 Skimmer (cleaned yesterday am getting good skim-stuff), and Magna Drive 3 return pump all working. Fluval 450 for water circulation empty with some charcol bag in it quit on me last week (would prime...pump for about 1-2 days then stop and just run until emptied and re-primed/set up all over again then quit again after 2-3 days) so its attached now but idle.

Other than that NO death in either other tanks (#1 main 80 gal/tank #2 55 gal office) since the Clown tang and purple tang last month. Two Hippo tangs added to the 80gal tank are doing well as is the P.Asfur and marron tang original inhabitants. Only thing else added to all tanks have been hermit crabs, nessarious snails, and starfish all of which are okay other that the loss of a hermit crab here or there (I think the Angels are poaching on them...my Queen/Blue picks on them sometimes I observe).

Could it be the Baltimore LFS and their fish that are the problem? Water differences vs stressed/shipped fish? What Q's should I ask them?


----------



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

Pasfur said:


> Hey Rob, can you do me a favor going forward and refer to the tank size when you say the tank number? Something like this: "Tank #2, 55 gallons". I know we've been talking for a while now, but there are so many different people on here the small details get lost. I have to keep going back and rereading all of our threads to remind myself which tank size is which! You could also just update your signature to include a very brief tank summary.
> 
> The Cortez Angel has become increasingly difficult to find. It is one of my favorites, but becoming rare. The color of this fish changes as it matures, so you could consider another species that looks similar as a juvinile, but more attractive as an adult. The Koran Angel and Emperor Angel both fit this need and are more readily available.
> 
> ...


Hi. What have you heard about the Passer Angel or the six bar Angel? My old/previous LFS has one of each that he'd said he'd hold on quarrantine for me for 3wks if I wanted to put a deposit on either of them.


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

The Six Bar Angel is somewhat rare, but it is a Pomacanthus genus and should be reasonably sturdy. I'm not sure you have the space for it, however.

The Passer is difficult. Very very difficult. I would avoid this fish.


----------



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

Pasfur said:


> The Six Bar Angel is somewhat rare, but it is a Pomacanthus genus and should be reasonably sturdy. I'm not sure you have the space for it, however.
> 
> The Passer is difficult. Very very difficult. I would avoid this fish.


 Okay I got an Emperor angel (young adult) about 6 inches long. Placed him in the main tank 80+gal (to remind you) and moved my P.Asfur (took me an hour to catch him...he really didn't want to go) and placed him in my other tank. The emperor is now hanging out with my Blue/Queen angel juvenile and so far nobody is bothering each other as the Emperor is pretty much larger by about 2 inches. Tank#1 *80+gal is now doing pretty good and maroon clow is doing well as are the 2 Hippo tangs added about 1-2 mos ago. Also added a Niger Trigger who is also doing well and there is a Royal Grama (small) hanging out to add some variety.

Tank #2 currently has the P.Asfur, chromis green x3, 2 damsels (small), and my yellow tang and Clarki clown and coral beauty. No major deaths other than a hermit crab or two. Best tank in the house and sump is working great.

Tank #3 newest one upstairs is doing okay. Had a ph spike last week that killed a royal grama (haven't seen him) but NOT my percula clown? Transplanted my foxface there and he's sharing the place wih the clown now and a Rock Beauty (small). Hear that the Rock Beauty's are hard to keep but price for size was too good to pass up so I gave him a try. ($20). Want a Gray Angel or French angel in that tank though...but am thinking on moving the Blue/Queen there in case trouble arises so am probably gonna leave that tank "angeless" so to speak just in case.

LFS also had a few (x2) clown tangs...I miss mine!  he's been gone for about 3 months now but he was a good and hardy fish. 

Anyway am checking water every 2 weeks all parameters still and watching calcium, alk and PH closesly. Salinity less as tanks are varying around 1.026-1.029 in the tanks. A little on the high side but so far so good. Just thought I'd update you! Thoughts?


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

You need to continue lowering the salinity. 1.026 should be an absolute high. 

I think you may find the Rock Beauty to be easier to care for than its reputation. It is a sturdy fish initially and generally easy to feed. The long term problems lie in the dietary requirements. Fortunately in the industry today we have a large variety of frozen foods and algae sheets available. I would make sure you are feeding Angel Formula frozen foods, as well as Formula One and Formula Two frozen. Just as important will be to feed algae sheets daily. My fish eat a 6''x8'' strip of algae daily. I feed San Francisco Bay brand, which you can purchase in bulk here:
Seaweed Salad Green Algae - 100 sheets | Seaweed | Fish Food | Aquarium - ThatPetPlace.com


----------



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

Pasfur said:


> You need to continue lowering the salinity. 1.026 should be an absolute high.
> 
> I think you may find the Rock Beauty to be easier to care for than its reputation. It is a sturdy fish initially and generally easy to feed. The long term problems lie in the dietary requirements. Fortunately in the industry today we have a large variety of frozen foods and algae sheets available. I would make sure you are feeding Angel Formula frozen foods, as well as Formula One and Formula Two frozen. Just as important will be to feed algae sheets daily. My fish eat a 6''x8'' strip of algae daily. I feed San Francisco Bay brand, which you can purchase in bulk here:
> Seaweed Salad Green Algae - 100 sheets | Seaweed | Fish Food | Aquarium - ThatPetPlace.com


 Yeah we'll see. I've been looking at an Elbi Angel to add at some point as well but am not sure how durable they are. I did get angel frozen cubes and have a good quantity of mysis shrimp and brine shimp along with some squid frozen cubes for food to substitute the normal flake I feed them and sinking pellets. I do add Green Algae sheets every other day so I'll check the site you suggest.

On the other hand I think I do have a rather large crab/crustecean of some sort in my corner tank. I found him munching on I think one of my starfish at the bottom under a rock. Am afraid of him getting hold of one of my fishes especially the Rock Beauty as they are both rather small <2 inches and this guy looks pretty large (crab) about 1.5-2" What do you think should I catch him? Did he hitch a ride with my live rock? I even watched him catch one of my blue legged hermits yesterday and polish him off too. thoughts? He shouldn't harm my Gray/Black Angel of Foxface currently in the tank should he? They are both much larger than him (gray angel is as big as my palm and the foxface as my whole hand) so should be safe correct?


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Elbi Angel - very hardy, easy to care for member of the Centropyge genus. Go for it!

Large Crab - catch him if you find the opportunity, because you never know. Question: is it hairy? Can you get a pic?


----------



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

Pasfur said:


> Elbi Angel - very hardy, easy to care for member of the Centropyge genus. Go for it!
> 
> Large Crab - catch him if you find the opportunity, because you never know. Question: is it hairy? Can you get a pic?


Hi. Yes I heard that the Elbi is much hardier than the Coral Beauty but they didnt have any avail. What luck have you had with online fish sellers? Am curious to try it but also afraid too. I mean what do you do when you get or how do you tell how to not get a bad fish?

The Emperor is doing fine and I think now adapting to the frozen squid although I think he likes the Algeae sheets most! He and the Bue/Queen Angel take turns with him fighting the Queen off most of the time since he's so much bigger!

Yes I've looked at him...the crustacean; he's made a home it looks like under one of my big live pieces of live rock. He looks like a crab and yes he is hairy or hairy looking on his legs. I can't get a pic cause he usually stays under the rock...unless he's capturing a hermit crab or something the 1x I saw him! LOL


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

I've never ordered fish online. I am extremely picky about my fish purchases and usually only buy fish that I have seen in person on 3 or 4 different visits to the LFS over a period of a couple weeks.


----------



## mdrobc13 (Jun 12, 2009)

Pasfur said:


> I've never ordered fish online. I am extremely picky about my fish purchases and usually only buy fish that I have seen in person on 3 or 4 different visits to the LFS over a period of a couple weeks.


Hey Pafur, that crab thing ate my coral beauty. Looked into the tank and found it munching on it or what was left of it. Hadn't seen it in about 2 days. Gray/black angel, foxface, and perculla are all okay. They're rather large and coral beauty was maybe slighly larger than the crab thing. WTF should I catch and kill it or is this just sea nature taking its course?


----------

