# Phosphate Question



## FishMad (Sep 28, 2010)

I have had problems with high Nitrates for 2 weeks now. Nothing I did seemed to budge the levels at all, 25% water changes daily, prime, less feeding you name it, I did it. However, I did a 50% water change this morning and surprise surprise FINALLY my Nitrates have dropped to 5ppm:-D

However, my Phosphate reading is off the charts!

Now, this is where I need the advice of those of you who know your chemicals. Correct me if I am wrong: When I do water changes I use prime as well as the Neutral Regulator to keep my ph at 7.0. I also use Stress Guard and then 2 days after changing the water I use the Flourish trio for my plants. Don't each of these chemicals contain Phosphate? Wouldn't this be the reason I have such large readings for Phophate? If I am adding Phosphate in chemicals that are essential then is the Phosphate harming the fish? My fish are all healthy and happy even despite the Nitrate problems I have been having it hasn't caused any stress whatsoever to my fish.

So I guess what I am really trying to ask here is: As my Phosphate reading is off the charts, is this a problem? Is it going to harm the fish long term? Is there some action that I need to take to remedy these high readings?

I honestly thought that in a Freshwater tank I didn't have to worry about the Phosphates. I thought that this was a Saltwater issue, is that not the case?

Please, if you have knowledge regarding the Phosphate please, I need your advice.


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## zambit (Sep 5, 2010)

Have you tested your tap water for phosphates? Many tap sources have phosphates in it so a water change won't help. Ditto for the nitrates. I had the same problems but it turns out that my tap wat had about a 1.0 phosphate reading and .50 nitrate reading. You can use fertalizer that does not have phosphates and can put some thing in you filter to remove them.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Most aquarists would consider the phosphate danger to be algae; high phosphates promote algae. If you are not seeing algae increasing, the phosphates may not be "high."

The effect of any excess mineral or nitrate on fish is difficult to measure. You don't say how high nitrates were before; most suggest keeping them below 20ppm, though many fish can tolerate higher. But no fish occurs naturally in water high in nitrates, so the less the better regardless. In a well-planted tank, nitrates will often be zero, or no higher than 5 or 10ppm at the most. Unless the fish are overstocked or there is a biological issue.

One issue you have though is the multitude of chemicals going into the tank. This is not healthy for the fish (or the plants). Unless you have ammonia, nitrite or nitrate in your source tap water, I would not use a conditioner that detoxifies these, as there is no need with plants.

There is no reason for using StressGuard in an established aquarium. Again, another chemical going in the water for no reason.

I would not use any form of chemical pH regulator; we can discuss pH more when you tell us what it is in your tap water and what you want in your tank, and why you are using this.

As you correctly surmise, all these chemicals are affecting the tanks biological system. A good water conditioner that only detoxifies chlorine/chloramine and heavy metals (just in case, most do this), plus Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the plants, is all you need. You mention the Flourish trio--are you adding CO2? There is no point in dosing individual nutrients without added CO2, as the plants can't use this.

Byron.


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## FishMad (Sep 28, 2010)

Thank you so much for the advice. I will add some more information regarding why I am using certain chemicals and what I am expecting to do.

I have been advised to always use Prime when I carry out water changes. The reason I was given was to remove all toxins out of the water and for the added bonus of the slime coat for the fish. Initially I wasn't using prime but, a basic dechlorinator however I began having Nitrite issues so was advised to use Prime.

The PH Neutraliser is another that was recommended as it instantly adjusts the PH to 7.0 which is what I like to keep my PH at. I do not always add it when I do a water change however, I test the water prior to carrying out a water change and if the PH is low I will add some regulator with the fresh water.

My tap water source quite surprisingly is very good. It contains none of the nasties ie Nitrites/Nitrates. I have had issues with the high Nitrates but I believe this to be the result of overfeeding. The tank is certainly not overstocked and I have a good external canister filter with great media. I guess I have just been too caught up with ensuring everyone in the tank gets a good feed, allowing overfeeding to occur thus high Nitrate Levels.

Now, when I say high Nitrates I mean HIGH. The readings I got for 2 weeks were off the scale! It didn't seem to matter what I did to the tank, they just wouldn't drop. I was doing daily 25% water changes, using Prime with each water change, cleaned the filter (ensuring it was done in tank water and not cleaned too thoroughly) and still, I couldn't budge the Nitrates.

Then, several days ago I did a 50% water change, still used Prime & Neutral Regulator and surprise surprise NO Nitrate problem anymore! My Nitrate level was only between 0ppm and 5ppm.

I have drastically reduced the amount and frequency of feeding from twice a day to just once a day. I was feeding the Omega Stress & Appetite Stimulant + Spirulina Wafers in the morning followed by Omega Stress & Appetite Stimulant + 6 Frozen Bloodworms every night. I would also give them a "treat" once a fortnight of 40mL of Live Blackworm.

I have now cut back the feeding to once daily, in the evening and am only giving them a tiny pinch of the flake, a dozen or so Algae wafers and 3-4 Frozen Bloodworm.

I have retested my water and everything is perfect. My PH is 7.0, Ammonia is 0, Nitrite is 0 and Nitrate is 5ppm.

However, I am now witnessing what can only be described as a "feeding frenzy" each evening. The Silver Dollars, Clown Loaches, Royal Whiptail, Long Finned Bristlenose, Angels and Corys are all so aggressive and actually fight over the food. The Silver Dollars just swoop in and will steal wafers from a Clown Loaches mouth, the Clown Loaches try their hardest to catch all of the wafers and stash them inside their caves, the corys, Whiptail and Bristlenose all push and shove frantically trying to devour the most amount of food possible.

I find it really hard to watch. I thought that as long as all the food was consumed within 5 minutes then you knew you weren't overfeeding. The food has always been well and totally gone within the 5 minute timeframe however, I have still battled the Nitrates. I s'poe it is all to do with the waste produced from the feeding also, not just the actual amount of food fed. Please, correct me if I am wrong.

I would really love some advice here if I am doing something wrong. I definitely spend a lot of time watching my fish and observing their certain behaviours and then consult my trusted Aquariust however, I am willing to accept that perhaps things are still not right.

As far as the Flourish Trio are concerned, I was advised to use the three products for my plants. However, to be perfectly honest I haven't used any of them for atleast 2 months now as I have been doing such frequent water changes. I don't have any CO2 running on the tank also. I have a good amount and variety of plants. I need to keep up the amount of plants due to the Silver Dollars constant grazing (which, I might add has significantly increased since the new feeding regime has begun.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Without the actual numbers it is a bit difficult to offer suggestions.

On Prime and nitrates: Prime detoxifies nitrate for about 24 hours (I have this direct from Seachem). If there is ammonia, nitrite or nitrate present in the tap water, using Prime at water changes is beneficial because it prevents a sudden influx of whichever into the aquarium, thereby preventing shock to the fish. But without tap water issues, there is no similar benefit. While there is basically nothing wrong with using Prime under normal situations, given the fact that there is (or was) a nitrate problem in the aquarium this is not such a good idea. The result is fluctuating nitrate levels, which is far worse than steady if somewhat high levels. But aside from introducing it from the source water, high nitrate in an aquarium is a sign of a biological problem, and this should be sourced and dealt with rather than being masked once a week.

Adjusting the pH in an aquarium is something that should be done very carefully and slowly, if at all. Fish are highly sensitive to pH fluctuations, much more than with a steady pH that may be somewhat outside their preference. If you can give me the numbers for the pH of the tap water, and the pH in the aquarium (prior to adjustment), plus the hardness of the tap water, I can go into this further. Hardness has an impact on pH, so that is why I ask for that. And pH fluctuations as I mentioned are highly stressful to all fish.

A pH of 7 is not natural. No fish lives in such water, it is too "pure." And the fish you mention are soft, slightly acidic water fish anyway. I may have more on this when I know the numbers.

Generally speaking, any water parameter adjustments (pH, hardness, temperature) can be stressful on fish, and this weakens their immune systems. If the recommendations for these products are coming from staff in stores, one has to remember they are there to sell products. Without a valid reason for doing so, it is not safe to be adding chemicals to a tank housing live fish.

Byron.


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## FishMad (Sep 28, 2010)

Hmmmm, thanks once again for your very helpful response Byron.

It sure is frustrating when you receive such varying advce from those who are s'posed to have the exact same qualifications.

The person whom I deal with helps us out with our water tests and advicem, that is it. We never actually purchase anything from his place of employment as they don't stock any of the decent fish chemicals, foods etc. He actually stops us from buying products from his store as he knows they are rubbish. So, we definitely don't have an issue whereby he is trying to get a sale out of us.

Ok, here are today's numbers for you (Call me stupid BUT I only have the API Freshwater Test Kit which doesn't test for hardness etc, I have never been told I need to test for this).

*Tap Water *​PH: 7.6 
Nitrate: 0ppm 
Nitrite: 0ppm 
Ammonia: 0ppm 

*Tank Water*
PH: 7.2
Nitrate: 20ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Ammonia: 0ppm

The temperature in the tank is a stable 26 Degrees Celcius. I have an Eheim Canister Filter which is plenty big enough and has good media in it. Currently I have the noodles, bio balls, chemzorb as well as the usual sponges. When the filter is cleaned I ensure it is done in the tank water and isn't cleaned too pedanticly as I am aware of the negative impact on the fish with massive changes all at once.

As far as using the Stress Guard, this has been when I have had a Silver Dollar with a nasty injury to his lip and was a bonus for the Angels with their fins which were badly nipped.However, this is not something that I just use for the sake of it.

I understand the need to keep the water as chemically pure as possible. Afterall, the best conditions for the fish are those that are the closest to their natural habitat.

Given that almost a week has passed since the last water change and the Nitrate Level is still good, I would definitely say with 100% confidence that the issues were stemming from overfeeding. With the new feeding regime the fish seem happy however, we certainly do need to purchase more plants for the Silver Dollars. They have destroyed one of my gorgeous Anubias.

My belief with the Silver Dollars is that it is best to give them plenty of the plants that they like to eat in order to keep them away from the nicer, more delicate plants. This is something that has taken a while to figure out.

Once again, I really appreciate the help offered within this forum. I certainly am no expert but, try my best and hardest always asking for advice and never shying away from 'constructive' criticism.


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

keep using prime. Ignore Nitrate. Ignore phosphate. Stop using the pH messer upper stuff. 

Now you have success. 

FYI nitrate is really of little to zero issue same with phosphates. I actually couldn't maintain a tank with zero nitrates >.> I have also never seen a 0 nitrate test reading lol. I have a habit of adding them if they fall below 20ppm. Phosphates I add regularly and I have no idea what the levels are, other then adding them doesn't seem to hurt anything. Your plants are definatly not going to be happy about high filtration with 0 nitrates...


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## FishMad (Sep 28, 2010)

Bump.........Byron? :-?


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Byron said:


> Most aquarists would consider the phosphate danger to be algae; high phosphates promote algae. If you are not seeing algae increasing, the phosphates may not be "high."
> 
> The effect of any excess mineral or nitrate on fish is difficult to measure. You don't say how high nitrates were before; most suggest keeping them below 20ppm, though many fish can tolerate higher. But no fish occurs naturally in water high in nitrates, so the less the better regardless. In a well-planted tank, nitrates will often be zero, or no higher than 5 or 10ppm at the most. Unless the fish are overstocked or there is a biological issue.
> 
> ...


It is my understanding , that Plenty of folks dose individual nutrient's without CO2 injection for the uptake by plant's is there albeit at a much lower rate.Consequently those who do so offer the individual salt's,minerals,at a scaled down rate.(much lower than full EI dosing)
Most of the plant supplements such as Flourish comprehensive are rich in micro nutrients along with many of the specialty plant substrates from my research thus far, but they often contain very little in the way of macro nutrient's.
Couldn't hurt in my view (expierience thus far), To add Nitrogen, Pottasium,Phosphorus, (NPK) in small amounts once a week or two.
I am doing so in 80 gallon planted tank under the recommendation's of those doing likewise and plan'ts do seem to benefit. (Tom Barr's Non CO2 method) Trust me,If it didn't provide a measureable benefit, (from my expierience)I wouldn't do it.
I always have,and always will value your opinions with respect to most everyting fish and plant related, but to suggest that without CO2 injection that plant's cannot benefit from nutrients which are dosed in a way to be non limiting does not jive with the results that I and other's have witnessed.
I have lost no fish by doing so and have witnessed much appreciated result's with respect to plant growth.
I am not dosing nutrient's at high levels , and all consideration was /is given to plant mass,fishload,foods offered,and CO2 levels that exist as by product of fishes ,and bacterial activity ,albeit at lower levels than CO2 injected tanks.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Mikaila31 said:


> keep using prime. Ignore Nitrate. Ignore phosphate. Stop using the pH messer upper stuff.
> 
> Now you have success.
> 
> FYI nitrate is really of little to zero issue same with phosphates. I actually couldn't maintain a tank with zero nitrates >.> I have also never seen a 0 nitrate test reading lol. I have a habit of adding them if they fall below 20ppm. Phosphates I add regularly and I have no idea what the levels are, other then adding them doesn't seem to hurt anything. Your plants are definatly not going to be happy about high filtration with 0 nitrates...


 
If one is performing weekly water changes and isn't seriously overfeeding,overstocking,there should never be excess nitrates or phosphates at levels that would harm fishes.
Same with dosing nutrient's in dry form.Would take many many parts per million over extended periods to begin to harm fishes and if weekly water changes are taking place,and source water is not a contributer,then excessive levels should not become an issue . IMHO


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## FishMad (Sep 28, 2010)

From the advice I have received from many experienced aquariusts as well as the further research I have been doing it is my belief that adding nutrients in the form of Flourish (trio) is certainly not wasted without co2. I have been advised that co2 is not required. It isn't as though I have a planted tank and the plants I do have are all true aquatics.

There is definitely a huge difference with my plant growth and health when I fertilise and then don't fertilise. Due to the other issues that have been going on with my tank these past 8 weeks or so I haven't actually used any Flourish. I decided to scale back to absolute basics to hopefully work out where my Nitrates were coming from.

I am 100% positive that the high Nitrate levels were absolutely caused by too much waste being produced. Some will refer to this as overfeeding, I believe it to be the waste produced. Everyone in the tank is not happy with the new feeding arrangement. The Silver Dollars have become aggressive toward the Angels and for the very first time ever, they are nipping at their fins. The Silver Dollars have also wiped out 2 huge Anubias which, they have never previously touched. They have also destroyed what was once a huge, healthy Java Fern as well as the various grasses. The Clown Loaches have also begun showing signs of aggression when food is around and they never hesitate to push everyone else out of the way.

There is huge aggression at feeding time now which, I hate seeing. To me, these are not happy fish! However, I have a plan..............Tomorrow I am going to purchase 4 bunches of Alodea, a few more grasses and as many 'pest' snails as I can possibly get my hands on.

I am hoping that by providing plenty of plants for the Silver Dollars to eat will ease their frenzy when it is feed time. The snails are for the Clown Loaches, this should also help not only as a food source but as a boredom buster. It is obvious that these fish like to be kept stimulated as this is when their 'clicking' is loudest. They love picking up the snails and carrying them around the tank with them!

My Nitrate has remained stable at 20ppm and all other water parameters are good. Something I question is the advice regarding the PH. I have always kept my PH at 7.0 and have had no problems at all. What effect does too high/low PH have on the fish? Wouldn't they show signs of not being happy?

Oh, I almost forgot....the other HUGE change in the tank is o2. I had thought that there was insufficient o2 in the water as we I only had the standard spray bar attached from the Canister Filter. This broke the water however, didn't really appear to be putting much o2 into the water (minimal bubbles). I kept being told that this was sufficient as long as the fish weren't gasping for breathe or, their gills weren't going a million miles an hour. Neither of these things was happening however, I decided to finally just go with the air pump and air hose the length of the tank (5ft) and see what happened. It certainly is never a waste as the effect it creates is nice. 

I believe that the extra o2 along with the reduced feeding is the key to my Nitrates being stable. Apart from the 'feed me I am starving' behaviour, all fish appear to be happy and healthy!


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

FishMad said:


> From the advice I have received from many experienced aquariusts as well as the further research I have been doing it is my belief that adding nutrients in the form of Flourish (trio) is certainly not wasted without co2. I have been advised that co2 is not required. It isn't as though I have a planted tank and the plants I do have are all true aquatics.
> 
> There is definitely a huge difference with my plant growth and health when I fertilise and then don't fertilise. Due to the other issues that have been going on with my tank these past 8 weeks or so I haven't actually used any Flourish. I decided to scale back to absolute basics to hopefully work out where my Nitrates were coming from.
> 
> ...


Overfeeding results in increased waste. What goes in,must come out.
With regards to CO2, Who ever told you it is not required for plant growth was/is mistaken.
CO2 injection is not needed but some form of carbon must be present such as the relatively small amount produced as by product of respiration by fishes,and bacterial breakdown of organics in the aquarium.
Plant's can adapt to these low levels of CO2 but cannot grow without some form of it.


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

1077 said:


> If one is performing weekly water changes and isn't seriously overfeeding,overstocking,there should never be excess nitrates or phosphates at levels that would harm fishes.
> Same with dosing nutrient's in dry form.Would take many many parts per million over extended periods to begin to harm fishes and if weekly water changes are taking place,and source water is not a contributer,then excessive levels should not become an issue . IMHO


Well that all depends on what is considered excess. I have 20ppm out of my tap, which is great IMO for the tanks I run. I dose EI method, except no KNO3 simply because I don't really need it. I can/have dose it before in full and never had a issue then either. My big tank pushes between 20-40ppm nitrate and I breed lots of fish in that. EI method calls for 20ppm NO3- ideally, unless you are raising some really sensitive fish. I still stand that 0 nitrates is no good for plants... especially with filtration. For below EI I still would not drop below 10ppm nitrate if you wanted to grow plants. If the tank wasn't relying on the cycle it might be different. However it is and now those plants have to fight with the filter for their food.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Mikaila31 said:


> Well that all depends on what is considered excess. I have 20ppm out of my tap, which is great IMO for the tanks I run. I dose EI method, except no KNO3 simply because I don't really need it. I can/have dose it before in full and never had a issue then either. My big tank pushes between 20-40ppm nitrate and I breed lots of fish in that. EI method calls for 20ppm NO3- ideally, unless you are raising some really sensitive fish. I still stand that 0 nitrates is no good for plants... especially with filtration. For below EI I still would not drop below 10ppm nitrate if you wanted to grow plants. If the tank wasn't relying on the cycle it might be different. However it is and now those plants have to fight with the filter for their food.


Full EI method calls for 50 percent weekly water change to re-set the tanks which would prevent build up of dangerous levels of anything in the way of dry fertz.
Weekly water changes in low tech tanks with 1/3 to 1/4 of EI dosing that high tech tanks with CO2 injection receive would accomplish same thing.
I agree with Byron that one may or may not need to add anything extra to a properly stocked tank with sufficient plant mass , and appropriate fish load for fish waste ,and fish food, along with CO2 which occurs naturally from fish respiration and bacteria breakdown of organics can sometimes provide all the plant's need With maybe some trace minerals. 
If it ain't broke don't fix it. But to possibly grow some plant's which some say can't be grown without CO2 injection and all of the bells and whistles,,some such as myself ,, expieriment with providing unlimited nutrients to see what can be achieved. I'm no plant guru,just choosing to follow those with much more expierience and who have presented me with the info to achieve similar results that they have.(I hope)
My own tank's nitrate levels are twice what I am comfortable with but fishes are not responding negatively ,and I am pleased with growth of some very slow growing plants.
In a Non planted tank with Cichlids , I would not be comfortable with present readings but I can measure the rate that plant's are using the extra KNO3 and skip a week if needed . 
I am using approx 1/4 tsp each of KNO3 and Pottasium once each week or two in 80 gallon tank. Way less than what those who dose full EI add to their tanks daily.
I can't add more for the rate of uptake in my low tech tank is not the same as High tech CO2 injected tanks with a gazillion watts of light resting above and adding more would be pointless.
For me,in my tank,with the plant's and fish I have,,I have found the balance to achieve my goals.


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

Yes I can agree with that. I dose 1/4 tsp K2SO4 every other day, along will slightly less phosphate, and about the same amount of CSM+B on opposite days, then magnesium is added as well. This works for me. I have IMO heavily stocked tanks. And yes 50% WC weekly. I must prune back plants weekly. Most of my tanks are kinda focused for growing plants quickly which is why I rely heavily on fertilizers in most of my tanks. I can't stand slow plant growth. I don't agree that any plant NEEDs CO2 injection, some certainly grow easier/better. But coming from someone who uses this, it is not needed as an absolute. I feel almost nothing in this hobby is set in stone. All that matters is that it is balanced in some manner.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

A couple observations on the question of whether or not nitrate is beneficial for plant growth.

Aquatic plants, unlike terrestrial, have a marked preference for ammonium as their source of nitrogen, not nitrates. Aquatic plants can utilize ammonium (they can and do convert this from ammonia in basic water), nitrite and nitrate; but tests have proven that they overwhelmingly prefer ammonium. Some believe this is because the process to assimilate nitrogen from nitrite and nitrate uses more energy, since the plants have to take up the nitrite and nitrate and then change it back into ammonium. It is "easier" for the plant to utilize ammonium if it is available.

And this brings us to the majority of natural habitats where nitrates are rare or totally absent. Ammonium predominates because almost all sediments (substrates) supporting aquatic plant growth are anaerobic. As the water in these habitats is usually soft and acidic, the ammonia produced by bacteria and other life immediately changes to ammonium. Ammonium, not nitrate, tends to accumulate because the anaerobic conditions discourage nitrification and encourage denitrification. Most aquatic plant species have consequently developed an ammonium-based nutrition. Studies show that most plants grow faster and better when ammonium is present compared to nitrates. Tables of all these studies are included in Diana Walstad's book if anyone wants to see them.

Another fact is that all photosynthesizing organisms (plants, algae) use ammonium, not nitrate, to produce their proteins. Thus, assimilation of nitrogen as ammonium is certainly going to result in increased plant growth with less energy used. This relates to my comments elsewhere about biological filtration being detrimental to plant growth. Plants use ammonium to produce protein, and the process they must use to change nitrates back into ammonium uses considerable energy, and slows their growth. Nitrifying bacteria gain their energy from oxidizing ammonium into nitrate. Plants use almost exactly the same amount of energy just to change nitrate back into ammonium which they must do in order to use the nitrogen for protein.

High nitrates may be considered detrimental to plant growth, depending of course upon the other conditions in the aquarium--the amount of ammonium (from ammonia) present, fish load, bacteria, plant load, etc., and of course the plant species. But as I mentioned previously, very few prefer nitrate over ammonium, so the greater benefit lies with ammonium and not nitrate if better plant growth is the goal.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

FishMad said:


> From the advice I have received from many experienced aquariusts as well as the further research I have been doing it is my belief that adding nutrients in the form of Flourish (trio) is certainly not wasted without co2. I have been advised that co2 is not required. It isn't as though I have a planted tank and the plants I do have are all true aquatics.
> 
> There is definitely a huge difference with my plant growth and health when I fertilise and then don't fertilise. Due to the other issues that have been going on with my tank these past 8 weeks or so I haven't actually used any Flourish. I decided to scale back to absolute basics to hopefully work out where my Nitrates were coming from.
> 
> ...


I would like to comment on a couple of things from this post.

First on the pH. It is almost impossible to have a pH of exactly 7, since this "pure" state cannot exist if there are influences (organics, minerals, life...) present. So while the API pH test kit may indicate a pH of 7, I would suggest it is either above or below. Secondly, as noted previously, any "adjustment" done un-naturally--by which I mean with any chemical substance _or_ any biological process specifically increased solely for this purpose--is going to take a toll on the biological equilibrium in the aquarium which after all is a closed system. Such "adjustments" of any sort in a closed system must be very carefully considered since the impact can alter suddenly and significantly. Such changes *are* detrimental to fish, first through additional stress (which weakens the immune system at the very least) but beyond that, if significant, causing other internal problems. I do not advise doing this. It is preferable by far to allow the aquarium's biological system to come to its own state of balance. Live plants and regular partial water changes can assist this to occur. But it can be impacted to varying degrees through increasing nutrients, which brings me to the second item.

Oxygen. Increasing oxygen in a planted tank is detrimental to the plants. First, the amount of oxygen produced during the day (during photosynthesis) by plants [and here assuming a reasonably well-planted and balanced system] is considerable and far greater than the fish and bacteria require, even during the night. Second, an increase of oxygen causes plants to slow their growth in two ways. First, increasing oxygen must of necessity reduce CO2. This is removing an essential nutrient, carbon, from the system. Second, oxygen binds with micro-nutrients, making them inaccessible to plants; iron is one obvious example. This further reduces the nutrient availability, and plant growth must slow correspondingly. At the same time, algae will likely increase as it can utilize the light when the plants cannot due to insufficient nutrients; remember, plants will/can only grow to the point at which something is no longer available--the law of minimum--and any excess of light or other nutrients when one essential nutrient is unavailable will not benefit the plants but will benefit algae.

The other issue of dosing ad hoc nutrients is not far removed from my comments on oxygen. Things have to be balanced or the plants cannot benefit. But there can be various levels of balance. You may have sufficient CO2, nitrogen, etc. to balance the added nutrients. But the risk is always there, that this can suddenly get un-balanced, and various problems may occur as a result. Also, there is the issue of acceptable plant growth. Increased growth may not be essential; it depends upon what you expect/want from your system. Just remember that *any* input you make, whatever it may be, is having an effect on the biological system. This can be good or it can be the opposite.


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

Byron said:


> A couple observations on the question of whether or not nitrate is beneficial for plant growth.
> 
> Aquatic plants, unlike terrestrial, have a marked preference for ammonium as their source of nitrogen, not nitrates. Aquatic plants can utilize ammonium (they can and do convert this from ammonia in basic water), nitrite and nitrate; but tests have proven that they overwhelmingly prefer ammonium. Some believe this is because the process to assimilate nitrogen from nitrite and nitrate uses more energy, since the plants have to take up the nitrite and nitrate and then change it back into ammonium. It is "easier" for the plant to utilize ammonium if it is available.
> 
> ...


Still comes down to the fact any cycled tank is not going to have ammonium/ ammonia present for any period of time. Adding it doesn't work as long as you are filtering obviously. This is why we use nitrates unless you are not using any filtration. Your not going to find any fertilizer that adds ammonium to the water, which is why it always comes back to nitrates. I don't see IMO any way for a plant to grow in a normal filtered tank with 0 nitrates....


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Mikaila31 said:


> Still comes down to the fact any cycled tank is not going to have ammonium/ ammonia present for any period of time. Adding it doesn't work as long as you are filtering obviously. This is why we use nitrates unless you are not using any filtration. Your not going to find any fertilizer that adds ammonium to the water, which is why it always comes back to nitrates. I don't see IMO any way for a plant to grow in a normal filtered tank with 0 nitrates....


To clarify, I wasn't suggesting one should add ammonium. The fact is that it is present naturally in reasonable amounts. The plants are faster than nitrosomonas bacteria at grabbing it. This is why in a fully-planted tank (planted from day 1) fish can be added and there will be no cycle that we can detect. The plants use the ammonia (converting it to ammonium if basic water, otherwise in acidic directly) and the nitrosomonas bacteria will be present but in significantly less numbers than in non-planted tanks. As there are much fewer nitrosomonas bacteria, there is obviously less nitrite being produced so nitrospira bacteria are fewer as well. And therefore nitrates are fewer. Many with planted tanks have zero nitrates; I have 5ppm in mine, but I stock more heavily and I suspect the bacteria thus has opportunity to establish more than otherwise. If there was a balance between fish and plants such that no filtration was necessary, you would see zero nitrates in a planted tank.

Plants compete with bacteria for the prized ammonia/ammonium, and they tend to ignore the nitrates due to the extra energy required to make use of it. Plants can accumulate more nitrogen in their tissue when it is given to them as ammonium than when it is given as nitrate. 

That brings us to adding nitrogen to increase plant growth beyond what is possible from the available ammonium. Diana Walstad does not suggest adding ammonium; the fact that plants certainly prefer assimilating ammonium to nitrate does not mean they would grow better with more ammonium, although the very few studies she is aware of do suggest that a few plants might benefit [Elodea nuttallii has been shown to grow much better (faster) with ammonium than with nitrate]. However, the down side is the poisoning effect of ammonia toxicity and media acidification, since plants release acids when they use ammonium.


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## FishMad (Sep 28, 2010)

:shock:.......Ok, this has become extremely scientifically serious. Forget about the plant issues here, I care more about the health of my fish! The plants are there for the fish to eat as well as adding a balance to the tank. At the end of the day I am less concerned about sustaining plant life and more focussed on sustaining happy lives for my fish. I really couldn't care less if my plants growth is minimal, as long as the tanks balance is right.

I am still confused about the PH issue. As I mentioned in my previous post my tap water parameters are ok except the PH. For the most part, reflecting on the water tests that have been carried out over the past 6 months, my PH seems to sit between 7.0 and 7.6. There has only been the odd ocassion that I have used the PH buffer to regulate the PH.

I am not sure I understand the reason too much o2 is detrimental to the fish........I didn't think that it was possible for them to have too much o2. 

Any comments regarding the changes to the feeding schedule and behavioural changes?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

FishMad said:


> :shock:.......Ok, this has become extremely scientifically serious. Forget about the plant issues here, I care more about the health of my fish! The plants are there for the fish to eat as well as adding a balance to the tank. At the end of the day I am less concerned about sustaining plant life and more focussed on sustaining happy lives for my fish. I really couldn't care less if my plants growth is minimal, as long as the tanks balance is right.
> 
> I am still confused about the PH issue. As I mentioned in my previous post my tap water parameters are ok except the PH. For the most part, reflecting on the water tests that have been carried out over the past 6 months, my PH seems to sit between 7.0 and 7.6. There has only been the odd ocassion that I have used the PH buffer to regulate the PH.
> 
> ...


OK, dealing with the pH as you request.

It should not be fluctuating in the tank to this extent (7 to 7.6). Once a tank is biologically established, and with regular maintenance (and/or plants), the pH should be stable aside from the couple of decimal points in the diurnal fluctuation. Depending upon the hardness it may slowly lower over time. Do you know the GH and KH of your tap water? The water supply folks can tell you this, they may even have a website with a list of what's in the water (mineral and such) and hardness is likely to be mentioned.

Are you testing the pH at the same time (roughly) each day you test it? You should, in order to see any pattern/changes.

Earlier you mentioned using the pH regulator [h'm, interesting name for this stuff] if the tank pH was "low" to bring it to 7. With the tap water at 7.6, is the tank pH dropping below 7? Regular partial water changes are intended to remove "crud" which no filter can, and also to maintain water stability. However, one has to be careful if significant parameter changes result.

Fluctuating pH is stressful on fish, to varying degrees on different fish. The fish must adjust the pH of its blood to equal the environment. Having to keep doing this is stressful, which is why so many of us caution that a steady pH that may be slightly outside the fish's preferred range is better than one that keeps fluctuating. I understand that a difference of a couple decimal points is not likely to be dangerous in itself, but it is the frequent or regular fluctuation up and down that will take its toll.

This hobby is about science, and you can't (nor should you try) to escape that. We are dealing with living creatures in a living environment--and a very un-natural one for the creatures. None of these fish evolved in a closed system comparable to even the largest aquarium. We must be careful what we do to this system, as a seemingly insignificant change can have serious consequences.

As for the behaviour changes, in my view the fish are beginning to act according to their environment. I can't see mention of the tank size, nor of the number of fish (may have missed it, sorry if I did), but there are some issues to be aware of with these fish. Clown loaches need a group of five or more, they have a social structure and are highly social. Aggression frequently occurs with less than 5, or in too small a tank. Angels and silver dollars I do not see as compatible fish. And you have evidence of this now. I would be less inclined to attribute this to a change in feeding and more to the natural inherent instincts and behaviours of the various fish becoming more obvious.

Byron.


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## FishMad (Sep 28, 2010)

Firstly, I would like to thank everyone (especially Byron) for your thoughts. I really appreciate hearing the ideas and experiences of others.

Now, Byron you state that keeping fish is all about science. I agree to a point, it is most certainly NOT an exact science therefore allowing for many variables.

I am satified with the research I have undertaken to get the right balance for my tank. Having this tank only for the past 6 months has seen mistakes made and lessons learnt the hard way. This is all part of having fish as far as I am concerned. I have had no fatalities throughout this settling in period so, I must be doing most things right.

The PH variances have not been recent. That was more in the very beginning when the Nitrite/Nitrate/Ammonia factors were still establishing. For the past 3 months (I have been keeping detailed diary notes including everything from water changes, chemicals added and why, when new fish have been added etc etc) my PH has been stable at 7.0 - 7.2 which, has not caused any obvious issues.

I have had issues with the Nitrite and Nitrate however, that is all under control now. As for the high Phosphate reading, it is my understanding from further research that this is not really a huge issue in fresh water tanks. It may contribute to high reproduction of algae however, this has not been identified in my tank.

Thank you once again to all who have helped me to get a better understanding, I really appreciate you each taking the time to respond to my questions and concerns. 

Just for interest sake Byron, here are the details of my tank:

5ft x 2ft x 2ft
Substrrate - River sand
x2 large driftwood with Anubias
x3 Silver Dollars (palm size)
x5 Clown Loaches (3 - 7cm, 2 - 10cm)
x4 Corydoras (fully grown)
x1 GNF (approx 7cm)
x1 Royal Whiptail (mature male)
x1 Long Finned Bristlenose (10cm)
x4 Kuhli Loaches (5cm)
x2 Angels (medium size)
x10 Zebra Danios (juveniles)
x10 Black Tetras (mid size)

x2Large bunch of Alodea
Java Fern

Filter is Eheim Classic 600

Water changes, 25% weekly. 50% once per month

Filter Clean, once per month


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