# ICH- two weeks of treatment, its still hear and 20 dead fish



## lmeijer (Mar 7, 2007)

Okay so I treated my 65 gallon planted tank for ich for two weeks with RID ICH and no change. 

I have lost 20 fish. 

Mostly tetras and cherry barbs but I also lost a pleco, kuhli loach and SAE. Only the tetras, rummy nose tetras,cherry barbs and SAE's have it (my angels, danios, black skirt tetras, kuhlis, cories and chinese algae eaters don't have it).

Now I have treated for three days with Quick Cure and nothing, it is not going away.

I have the temp raised to 86 and I added salt per someone's suggestions. (I removed my frogs). 

Please any suggestions, I am running out of fish.

Thanks.


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## musho3210 (Dec 28, 2006)

what are the water params, salt is meant to be the first treatment, then medication, if neither of them work move on to UVS


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## lmeijer (Mar 7, 2007)

The tank was an upgrade and I think it cycled even though I used my old stuff. Now the levels are Nitrate 5.0, Nitrite 0, Ammonia o, ph 6.6 and phosphate 0. 

I raised the temp for 5 days, then added salt, then rid ich and now quick cure (after a water change). It is not falling off the fish and they keep dying.

Sorry this is new to me ---what is UVS?


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## musho3210 (Dec 28, 2006)

ultra violet sterilizer, its a high powered filter that uses a UV light which kills bacteria, protozoa, parasites and free swimming algae spores, you can say it kills everything living. There ok for short term use but long term is bad, costs about 100 dollars first hand 50 dollars second hand, look around you should be able to find one. You still need to work it for the 2 week period to successfully kill the ich, having it working for maybe 3 weeks isnt that bad to play it save but stop after that. 

Also stop mixing medications together, run some activated carbon, then use only 1 medication or salt treatment or UVS


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## lmeijer (Mar 7, 2007)

I didn't mix the meds I used the first, it didnt work, did a water change and used the second. Now I am only using quick cure

Will that sterilization thing kill my good bacteria, I don't want to cycle again and honestly I only have 6 fish left that have the ich, all the others died and the rest don't have it.


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## musho3210 (Dec 28, 2006)

no the beneficial bacteria lives on surfaces there-for wont go through the UVS. 

Do you have chemical filtration in the filter while you are medicating?


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

The UVS would be the most sure fire way to get rid of the problem, and no, it won't harm your good bacteria culture.
Mush, is there a reason you believe it not a good thing to run the UVS all the time other than the expense of running it? Honestly, it won't hurt anything to run it all the time, and is a good preventive for these kinds of problems. They are designed to be run all the time.
As mush has said, be sure to remove carbon while medicating, and be careful not to mix meds unless you know it is safe. Not all meds can be mixed together.
Can you tell me what kind of fish you lost thus far? Some of the ick medications are not safe for all kinds of fish, and could be a contributing factor in what fish have already died. How many days have you been using the quick cure? What is the temp in the tank?
One other question for you... the pH in the tank is 6.6, is it also 6.6 coming from the tap?


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## musho3210 (Dec 28, 2006)

Full term running gets rid of *all* bad things which is bad for the fish as it then has a low immunity. You may use humans as an example, our immune system has our secret weapon, our memory cells (which is a type of white blood cell) which memorize how to defeat a disease we have had, or at least fight it in a better way, but these memory cells only record the diseases that we already have so if we havent had it before, the memory cells wont defeat it and it is left off for the other white blood cells to fight it. If the white blood cells defeat it, one of the white blood cells becomes a memory cell and memorizes how to defeat it. The same principle works in vaccinations, all vaccinations inject a tiny bit of the disease that it is meant to vaccinate, then the immune system easily defeats it since it is at such a small quantity, then our memory cells record and voila, we have an immunity to that disease (of course problems can still happen if your immune system isnt strong enough to defeat the small dose and it spreads, happens with the polio vaccination so parents must sign a contract to swear that they wont sue if the child receives polio).

The same thing goes with fish, there immune system records the disease so it wont happen again unless the disease cell mutates and the memory cell isnt able to fight off the same disease since it is viewed as a different one (thats why we can catch so many common colds and flus in our lifetime since the disease constantly mutates and our memory cells aren't made to fight these ones). So if the fish is able to fight off small amounts of disease with there own immune system, it all ends up being good. Also there immune system is in work all the time since there are always diseases in the tank. With the UVS in work there will be no diseases in the tank and the fishes immune system isnt working anymore. Then maybe the UVS breaks down and the diseases are back, the fish wont have any memory cells since there never were diseases in the first place and they are more susceptible to death. 

Sorry if you didnt understand this, i learned most of this in science class and off fish websites, it took two full periods of science class for our teacher to fully explain it to us, and i tried to sum it up the best way i could


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## lmeijer (Mar 7, 2007)

Thanks, I will look into that. 

No chemical filtration


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## fish_4_all (Nov 13, 2006)

The only ones I can suggest now are Coppersafe which got rid of my problem in 6 days and using Maracyn I and/or II. I know nothing on the UV sterilizer so I can't say there. I think 88F is the prefered temp if I remember right. 

The other thing is it might not be Ich but might be velvet which sometimes requires different medications or something else. Can you describe it in as best of detail as you can so we can make sure it is ich and not something else? Not trying to question your diagnosis skills I just want to make sure. A picture would be even better if possible.


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## lmeijer (Mar 7, 2007)

yeah I have live plants so copper is out.

I am pretty sure it is ich, but I am sure I could be wrong. It is white spots on the tail and a bit on the body, they are white not gold or dusty like velvet. Does that help.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

There are other diseases that look just like ick... yet are not ick. A picture and any other symptom descriptions would help a lot.


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## fish_4_all (Nov 13, 2006)

That could be fin rot or a couple other things as well as ich. As for the plants, if i had ich that bad I would bite the bullet and remove all my plants and treat if it was ich. 

One other way to help us diagnose this is to describe the way the fish are acting: Rubbing the rocks constantly, laying there and acting lythargic, losing their fins or have pitted tail fins, any signs of mouth damage and anyhting you can tell us that is out of the ordinary.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

I want to try to clear up some misconception about the UV Sterilizers. Some of what mush posted is accurate, but not all of it. (sorry mush)
For starters, UV Sterilizers will kill most of the bad stuff, but not all of it, and the fish donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t build an immunity to ALL of the bad stuff the UVS kills, such as parasites, like ick.

Fish lice is a good example of this. A fish that experiences a lice infestation can recover, and the lice can be killed with either medications or UVS if they are drawn through it. But, once a fish has an infestation of lice, they do NOT build an immunity to them or the damage they cause. Gill flukes is another example, and so is ick. If exposed again, the fish can get sick again, whether there has been UVS for a period of time or not. (One more note about parasites such as gill flukes and fish liceÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ and ickÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ these parasites need a living host in order to survive. Without a living host, the parasite dies and the infestation is gone unless there is a living host for it to feed from.)

Now, if a UVS is being used and run all the time, then the things that the fish can and canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t build an immunity to donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t exist in a high enough population to cause an outbreak, thus there should be no reason for concern about future issues with those illnesses. With the UVS, if it is run all the time, then the pathogens it is designed to kill wonÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t be present in a high enough quantity in the water at any point because the UVS kills them if somehow they are introduced. This is the biggest reason UVS is used and so effective. Many people run UVS full time on both fresh and salt water, and I, myself have run them full time, and those turn out to be some of the healthiest tanks in the end.

As for the UVS breaking downÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ the things it protects against would need to be given a stressed host before they could/would become problematic again.

Again, ick is an example here. If running the UVS, the ick is killed. The fish donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t develop an immunity to ick, even without the UVS. One of the largest causes of ick is stressÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ but a UVS that breaks down doesnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t cause stress for the fish, so the breakdown of a UVS wouldnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t cause a problem to occur.

If you choose to use humans as an example, head lice is a good one to compare it to. The human body doesnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t develop an immunity to head lice. It is a parasite, like ick, fish lice, gill flukes, etc etc.

Now, another example of why a UVS can be better than medsÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ weÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ll use a dog for an example. Think about fleas on a dog. We treat the dog with a medication of some sort to kill the fleas. Fleas are known to become immune to some of these medications, and then when the dog is infested again, it takes a different medication to cure the problem, or more medication. This continues throughout the life of the dog. Fish parasites work the same way. Ick, lice, flukes, etcÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ can build an immunity to medications, making them difficult to get rid of if the fish are repeatedly exposed and medication is used to treat them. With UVS, there is no immunity built up by the parasite, and it is able to wipe that parasite out anytime it appears.

The other added benefit to the UVS is that the fish donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t get sick from it. Some medications, if used often enough, if overdosed, if water quality isnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t goodÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ can be toxic to the fish. UVS is completely safe and doesnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t cause stress to the body of the fish, which medication can do. Stress, as was mentioned, can cause illness and also weaken the immune system. UVS canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t be Ã¢â‚¬Å“overdosedÃ¢â‚¬Â and works with all water params, thus remains the healthiest and most effective way to prevent illness in an aquarium. 

Now, so there is no misconception here, please also note that UVS is not designed to control or destroy bacterial and/or fungal infections on a fish. It can handle water born viruses, but not a virus that is already in the fish. So, there ARE some things that even UVS is ineffective against, at which time medications are then called for.

I hope this helps in understanding UVS a little better, and helps for making an informed decision for anyone considering purchasing one.


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## lmeijer (Mar 7, 2007)

Hello- Thanks for all of the advice. I can't seem to get a picture of the little buggers to save my life. What has died includes tetras, rummy nose tetras, chery barbs and SAE's. What does not have the disease are my angels, gouramis, serpae's, cories, danios and my chinese algae eater. 

The fish have white spots and when close to dying they are missing tails but I can't tell if someone is eating them or if it is part of the disease. Years ago I have goldfish with ich and this looks the same but I could be wrong, I have never seen velvet. 

As for taking out my plants, if I have to I can but I am HEAVILY planted and they are nice and rooted. It would cause a lot of issue and we are talking $200 in plants. 

Thanks to your advice I went out today and bought a coralife uv steralizer, do I use that and medicate or something different? Thanks.


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## herefishy (Dec 14, 2006)

Raisng the water temp along with using meds will get rid of the problem if it is ich. Ich is a parasite that must go thruough stages in order to survive. You did not mention whether you raised the tanks temperature when dispensing the meds. Nor did you state whether you were running a filter containing carbon. If either of the two previous state pertain to your situation, Turn up the heat to around 84-86 degrees Fahrenheit and turn off any carbon filtration. If your problem is still with you after treatment, I would suggest trying MellaFix and/or PimaFix. These are two meds I could not do without.


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## fuzz16 (Feb 13, 2007)

...why are you using salt for freshwater fish? its so alien for them it makes them more stressed. 
and is it possbile its not ich? because it surprises me it took your pleco meaning thier very hardy.


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## herefishy (Dec 14, 2006)

Fuzz, some fish,such as mollies, seem to prefer a little aquarium salt in their tank. Other fish, such as puffers, datnoids, archerfish, and scats seen in our lfs's freshwater tanks, are brackish fish and can tolerate, even prefer, a more saline tank. African cichlids, such as the Rift Lake fish, also like a harder water composition, and will tolerate the addition of salt. A tablespoon for each 5g of water is usually adequate.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

I would use only the UVS with no medications. I would put the carbon back into your filter, do a small (25%) water change, and run just the UVS to treat this problem. I would then run the UVS all the time to avoid more issues in the future.
Keep us posted and let us know if you need further help.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Neither PimaFix nor Melafix is for ick treatment. Those would be used for bacterial and fungal issues...which this clearly is not.


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