# Hello! Looking for new tank setup critique, plus a couple of questions



## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Hi, all! I'm sort new to this and going to be setting up a new tank within the next week or so. I don't have alot of experience with aquariums, but my dad has had a tank on/off for a long time (though I think he mostly 'wings it' rather than dealing with it in any scientific manner).

Here's what I'm planning on:

44 gal corner pentagon
AquaClear 300 Powerfilter
Instant Ocean Visitherm 200w heater
Some type of aerator
Misc. decorations
Python gravel vac / water changer
Misc. equipment (nets, etc...)

I'm planning on setting up the tank w/ Tetra AquaSafe, running the filter for a couple of days, and adding some taller, leafy or bushy plants along the back sides of the tank as soon as I know the water is clean and 'stable' (Ph, hardness, & temp in range). Then, within a couple of days of that, I was planning on treating with SafeStart and adding 6-10 danios (Glofish, maybe?) as starter fish for the first couple of weeks, changing ~20% of the water each week. Eventually (over the next few months), I will want to slowly add some Mollys, a small Pleco or two, some Kuhli Loaches, a couple of Ghost Shrimp, Albino Cories, and maybe a Beta and/or a Red Tail Shark. (BTW, I'm using the calculator at AqAdvisor - Intelligent Freshwater Tropical Fish Aquarium Stocking Calculator and Aquarium Tank/Filter Advisor). The goal is a well-planted community tank with relatively small fish (yeah, I know...gotta think about that Red Tail Shark...).

So, now, onto the questions... 

1) Is the AquaClear 300 enough, or should I go with the Aquaclear 500? Would that cause too much 'current' in the tank? I chose the AquaClear over the Penguin BioWheel because it has an adjustable flow rate, so I figured I could turn it down if it annoys the fish too much. Going by the calculator, my 'worse case scenario' with a 109% stocking level I would still have 115% filter capacity with the 300.

2) Given that I want to plant the aquarium well, what type of substrate should I use? Also, I have no idea how much I'll need to get the required 1-2" for my tank (it would be roughly 1/2 of a 2'x2' surface area to cover). I was thinking something like a large-grained sand, though I'd prefer gravel if I can use it.

3) Is it OK to add all the plants early on? Any suggestion as to plant food / fertilizer etc? (I haven't visited the plant forum yet...)

4) I'm planning on running a 'daylight' bulb in the light for ~10 hours / day. Is that enough for the plants and fish? (BTW, the tank will be off in a corner, ~20' from relatively large E as well as a S facing window. The E facing window usually has the curtains drawn in the morning, and the sun won't hit the tank directly from the other window.)

5) I can snag a filter element and/or some tank water from my dad if that would help seed my tank. Should I?

So, what am I missing?

Thanks for any help, and great forum!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Hi Lee, and welcome to the forum. And welcome to your first aquarium.

You've asked several questions related to a planted aquarium, so I would suggest that you read the four stickies at the top of the Aquarium Plant section of the forum; they describe the basics in setting up a low-tech natural planted tank. You will probably have specific questions from that, and I or several others can answer them. 

Filtration and light depends upon the fish and plant species and will be generally touched on in the articles, but one question I would have is what your light is; presumably fluorescent, but how many tubes and what is the tube length? Also, what are your tap water parameters that you will be working with, specifically pH and hardness?

Byron.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Thanks for the response, Byron! I've already moved on to reading some of the posts in the plant forum.

I don't have actual test results from my tap (I'll be picking up my tank and supplies this weekend), but from the local water authority's reports for my area, the highest result for hardness was 216ppm and the highest pH was 7.6. I have a whole-house water filter, but no softener. I assumed there would be ways to get the water into a specific range? As per that calculator I found, for the fish I'm looking to keep, it's recommending a pH of 7-7.6ppm (so I think I'll be OK here) and a hardness of 11-15dH(?).

I believe the hood on the tank has a single 18" bulb, but can be modified for a second. I was going to use a single 'daylight' bulb and maybe add a second bulb later of the type that can bring out the colors in the fish (I forget the name at the moment, but I think it was 'blue' something and had a very high wavelength?). I'm open to any suggestions anyone may have here.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LMychajluk said:


> Thanks for the response, Byron! I've already moved on to reading some of the posts in the plant forum.
> 
> I don't have actual test results from my tap (I'll be picking up my tank and supplies this weekend), but from the local water authority's reports for my area, the highest result for hardness was 216ppm and the highest pH was 7.6. I have a whole-house water filter, but no softener. I assumed there would be ways to get the water into a specific range? As per that calculator I found, for the fish I'm looking to keep, it's recommending a pH of 7-7.6ppm (so I think I'll be OK here) and a hardness of 11-15dH(?).
> 
> I believe the hood on the tank has a single 18" bulb, but can be modified for a second. I was going to use a single 'daylight' bulb and maybe add a second bulb later of the type that can bring out the colors in the fish (I forget the name at the moment, but I think it was 'blue' something and had a very high wavelength?). I'm open to any suggestions anyone may have here.


The water seems generally OK, the Corydoras may find it a bit high/hard depending upon species. As for the tubes, I would avoid the blue actinic [I'm assuming that's what the "blue" may be] and stay with daylight or enhanced daylight. I would suggest two tubes will be needed, and if it means another/new fixture perhaps consider T5 HO which is 1.5 times more intensity for the same tube length as regular T8. Partly depends upon plants, but as you appear to be thinking tall stem plants the light will have to be adequate.


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## PRichs87 (Dec 30, 2009)

I used safe start on my aquarium, didn't prevent the cycle from still happening, save yourself 15 bucks instead of wasting the time on it.


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Welcome! Apart from what was already said earlier for reading recommendations....

You said "Some type of aerator" if you plan on having a planted tank do NOT add a air stone to this set up; that is contra productive for planted tanks as it'll drive the needed CO2 produced by the fish for the plants OUT, you don't want that 

You can add your plant the same day you fill the tank with water (and gravel or sand) having it planted right away will help with the cycle!;-)
You may wanna just also read over this and safe the $ for the safe start http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-aquariums/aquarium-cycle-252/

Why Pleco do you LOVE these fish and have to have one? Or believe you have to to "clean" the tank? Cause that's a myth many falls for and all it does it unnecessarily add to your bio load.
If you want to have Cory ensure that you either set the tank up with sand or very fine, not sharp edged gravel (which is also what you'd want for plants too).

Have you considered a canister filter at all? Just wondering cause they're much queiter then the hang on backs.


Like I said for the plants sand or fine gravel will do (just not the chunky pea sized stuff). You do NOT need that fancy & expensive special substrate the store will try selling you, waste of money with 9 outta 10 plants.
If you do plan on getting Amazon Sword plants in there too, for that then I'd suggest picking up root tablets / sticks as these plants feed off the root system; unlike most other plants that will thrive of liquid fertilizers (eg Sticks by API or Nutrafin; Liquid fert by Nutrafin or Seachem's).

Cross check the packing of your Daylight bulb, make sure its rated 6500 kelvin. What's the actually wattage on these bulb(s)? How many do you have there one or 2?

If you can say pleasee real nice to your dad and have him let you borrow one filter pad/ sponge from his existing tank (that you put in a zip lock bag wet till you get to your tank) and you wash it out in your set up till you have a bunch nice brown muck in your tank (and then give the pad right back to your dad) that's instandly cycled then right there and you'd have all the necessary bacteria right there; that is THE quickest & safest way to set up a new tank.

For planted inspiration, check here to the left under my name at this tap called "aquarium" you'll see all my set ups there, all planted; all without CO2 and without fert's :-D


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## WisFish (Dec 16, 2008)

Angel079 said:


> You do NOT need that fancy & expensive special substrate the store will try selling you, waste of money with 9 outta 10 plants.
> If you do plan on getting Amazon Sword plants in there too, for that then I'd suggest picking up root tablets / sticks as these plants feed off the root system;


I always have these discussions with Byron. The ony reason to use root tabs is because the plant is a root feeder and the substrate is not supplying the nutrients the plant needs. This is exactly when an enriched substrate would be a benefit. 

I myself use plain gravel with my tank. But the root tabs are becoming more expensive in the long run than if I would have used Flourite for example from the start.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

WisFish said:


> I always have these discussions with Byron. The ony reason to use root tabs is because the plant is a root feeder and the substrate is not supplying the nutrients the plant needs. This is exactly when an enriched substrate would be a benefit.
> 
> I myself use plain gravel with my tank. But the root tabs are becoming more expensive in the long run than if I would have used Flourite for example from the start.


OK, now you two can duke it out on this issue and give me a rest.:lol:

Seriously though, there are some points that should be considered by a new aquarist setting up a planted tank.

First, it depends upon the plants. Those that are substrate-root feeders will benefit from nutrients in the substrate; but if there are stem plants, floating plants and non-substrate rooted plants like Anubias and Java Fern and mosses, these will gain little or no benefit from nutrients in the substrate, so liquid fertilizer is necessary (if any fert is necessary given the water, tank, etc). Even with substrate ferts, some plants like swords will use nutrients from the liquid, as my experiments over the past year have demonstrated.

Second, enriched substrates do give out at some point. I read somewhere yesterday that it is around 3 years. If you plan on pulling the tank down and re-setting it in 3-4 years, it would be different than if you want a longer-lasting set-up; my 90g went for almost eight years before I tore it down, and that was to move it. We had some discussion on this aspect in another thread, including comments from Seachem. Any enriched substrate must give out when the nutrients are exhausted, just like garden soil; there is no way to replace nutrients in one of these substrates without replacing it. Substrate tabs and sticks can be continually replaced.

Third, cost. I can use small plain natural gravel from the local landscape supply which costs 75 cents a 2g pail; gravel for my 90g would cost me $7.50 max. Eco-complete costs $35 a bag, and it would take five bags minimum for my 90g to give me a 3-4 inch substrate which I need for my large swords. That's $175 compared to less than $10. Then I could use Nutrafin's Plant-Gro sticks at $8 for 6, and with six large swords in this tank (there are), that's one package a year because they last 12 months. So for a 5 year period, by which time I would need to pull the tank apart with a plant substrate and start over, I will spend $50 max for gravel and sticks, compared to $175 for Eco-complete, plus I have to start over in five years whereas with my recommended method I just continue on at $8 a year.

And, I do have experience; in 1996 I set up my 115g with Laterite under the gravel because I read that it was "necessary" if I wanted to grow plants. Well, the same species of plants in that tank grew no better than the same species (swords too) in the 90g with no Laterite, and both tanks needed liquid every week. I will admit that Laterite is only iron clay and not Eco-complete or similar.

If you have a tank set up in the Dutch style with high light and CO2, then an enriched substrate is probably an advantage. But trying to keep it all simple, I really see no point. Anyway, once the first-time plant enthusiast has all the facts, he/she can decide. The nice thing about this forum is that each of us can present his method and reasons, unlike reading a magazine or book where you only have the author's opinion. And during the past few months I have read twice in respected periodicals from knowledgeable authors that "you cannot grow any plants in plain gravel, you need Flourite or Eco-complete" etc. Rubbish. A beginning planted tank aquarist will have enough to contend with without spending more money.

Just my view, for what it may be worth.;-)

Byron.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

@Byron

Yes, blue actinic was what I was thinking about. I'm pretty surethe fixture in the hood I'm getting is a 'standard' flourescent, but I'll see when I pick up the tank on Saturday about what my options are with replacing it or adding a second bulb. Will look for a 'full daylight' as you suggested. Thx!

@Angel

I'll probably add the aerator, as it's part of a volcano ornament that I really really like, but I'll make sure to keep it turned down to a minimum.

I've read that link 3 times this week and am still trying to absorb all the nuances of the process, not to mention get all the similar-sounding compounds straight! 

Not absolutely stuck on the pleco (especially after seeing the price of the zebra pleco I was thinking would be a good size for my tank!).

The stand for the tank is a little tight on space, but when I get a look at it in person, maybe I'll consider a canister. This is the tank/stand that I'm looking at:









I gotta go past my parents on the way to pick up my tank on Saturday, so I'll swing by and see if dad can spare a filter medium. Actually, maybe I can have him throw a clean dish sponge in the filter tonight that I can then just nab from him on Saturday? Will that work?

Thanks again, all!

Edit - Oh, btw, after looking at the plants forum, I'll be looking to add some Java Moss, Foxtail, Waterweed, a little Micro-Sword, and maybe something a little more leafy as well.


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## WisFish (Dec 16, 2008)

Thanks for the comments Byron. Couple of thoughts. I thought Flourite was replentishable. In other words, just like garden soil, if you add root tabs or liquid ferts in a tank with Flourite, I understand that Flourite could store these nutrients. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Lastly your comment.. 

" Anyway, once the first-time plant enthusiast has all the facts, he/she can decide. The nice thing about this forum is that each of us can present his method and reasons, unlike reading a magazine or book where you only have the author's opinion. "

is what I'm addressing. Seems like we keep telling peoiple not to use enriched substrates when it seems like there are appropriate times to use them.

Anyway, I think I'll stop promoting enriched substrates and go back to standing up for UGFs:-D


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

WisFish said:


> Thanks for the comments Byron. Couple of thoughts. I thought Flourite was replentishable. In other words, just like garden soil, if you add root tabs or liquid ferts in a tank with Flourite, I understand that Flourite could store these nutrients. Correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> Lastly your comment..
> 
> ...


Oh, don't get me started on those:blink:...:lol:

On the Flourite, I don't see how; Seachem stated that it would last for a long time, which means it must give out at some point. Somehow the gravel (which is what they call it) would have to draw in the nutrients from the sticks or tabs, and I would suspect this is not possible or they would have said it. Seachem did state the nutrients will not leech into the water, they must have plant roots to assimilate the nutrients from the gravels, so it seems to act much like the tabs/sticks in plain gravel or sand.

So, LMychajluk, are you any the wiser after all this?:question:
Byron.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

I'm still trying to get this ammonium/amonia/nitrate/nitrite thing straight...I'm ignoring this Flourite stuff so my head doesn't explode...


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

LMychajluk said:


> I gotta go past my parents on the way to pick up my tank on Saturday, so I'll swing by and see if dad can spare a filter medium. Actually, maybe I can have him throw a clean dish sponge in the filter tonight that I can then just nab from him on Saturday? Will that work?


Nice tank there!!!
No within just a few days this sponge wouldn't have enough bacteria on it; ask your dad just to borrow a sponge from his that's been in there for a longgg time; wash it out in your tank and give it back to him (of if he doesn't care, keep it in your filter and he'll put a new one in his).

Plant choice sounds nice...maybe like 5-6 more plants for the tank size and you'll be set for it to grow nicely.;-)


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

WisFish said:


> I always have these discussions with Byron. The ony reason to use root tabs is because the plant is a root feeder and the substrate is not supplying the nutrients the plant needs. This is exactly when an enriched substrate would be a benefit.
> 
> I myself use plain gravel with my tank. But the root tabs are becoming more expensive in the long run than if I would have used Flourite for example from the start.


Ok, so I'm the newbie now have no tank exp and I'll go for the plants (Stems) my LFS has here and I'll set it up with Flourite.... Now how will this help ANY if you'm covering my tank with a bunch Ludwigia, Camboma, Rotala etc??? Non at all would it now!? So I just spent some $60+ (assuming a 55g tank) for no reason at all cause these plants will not benefit from it and i STILL have to go out and buy a liquid fert...so where's the added benefit in that?

Now I'm the Other newbie and I'm telling you I wanna stock my tank with Kleiner Bar, Amazon, narrowleaf chain etc.....YAY then using flourite makes perfect sense; if you in fact live in some parts of the US that has RO water coming from the tap. For ref look at my tanks and its Swords which have zero flourit, zero sticks, zero liquid nadda - You tell me these plants look poor? I highly doubt it.

Last but not least I'm newbie no 3; I wanna have Ludwigia, Camboma, Rotalaand a Amazon as a center piece...here again why spent some $60 odd for one Amazon is far beyond me if I can just go and buy a pack of root sticks to be added 1x a year for $5 for that very one Sword in there.

You see where I'm getting at with this before I write a large book here? ;-)


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Well, I went to the LFS (see, I'm picking up the lingo!) and got some supplies last night (still need to make a trek on Saturday to get the tank itself). Got 75lbs of gravel, an API liquid test kit, some API water conditioner, and some misc. stuff (nets, thermometer, etc...).

I washed out 50lbs of gravel, which seems like a lot, and kept the last bag in reserve.

I tested my water, and the pH seems to be in the mid to high 7s from the tap. I think it's within range of the fish I want to get, though maybe on the high side. We'll see what happens once the water is in the tank and conditioned. Didn't realize until I got home that the test kit didn't include a test for hardness, though, so I didn't get a chance to test that. For $30, I figured one of the 6 bottles in the kit would test hardness...

As I mentioned, I plan on planting the tank from the start, maybe 10-12 plants of 3-4 different types to see how it goes. Any suggestions as to plant food / fertilzer for tank that's just starting out? I've seen the tabs that get burried in the gravel and liquid plant food. Should I use either of these, or anything else?


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Oh, BTW, I'm also considering a canister filter as previously suggested. Since it's a corner tank, I think that'll allow the tank to 'tuck in' a little tighter into the corner than a power filter. Would the Fluval 305 be appropriate, or maybe too much for a 44gal planted tank?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LMychajluk said:


> Well, I went to the LFS (see, I'm picking up the lingo!) and got some supplies last night (still need to make a trek on Saturday to get the tank itself). Got 75lbs of gravel, an API liquid test kit, some API water conditioner, and some misc. stuff (nets, thermometer, etc...).
> 
> I washed out 50lbs of gravel, which seems like a lot, and kept the last bag in reserve.
> 
> ...


I would suggest rather than wasting money on a hardness test kit that you take a sample of your tap water to the fish store, most will test water for you. Or you might be able to check with your local water board, some have websites with water tests posted, or will tell you about pH and hardness. Once you know the hardness of your tap water, it generally remains the same or close, unless the Board does something or for some reason your water comes from quite different sources.

On the fertilizers, it somewhat depends upon the type of plants in the tank. But in all cases a liquid will suffice as a general fertilizewr and in my experience I grew heavy substrate root feeders like swords and crypts for more than 12 years with only weekly liquid, so it is as I say sufficient. Substrate tabs/sticks next to larger swords will provide them with more nutrients, but it is not essential.

You want a comprehensive fertilizer, one that supplies most of the 17 nutrients plants require and in the correct proportions. I have used and can recommend Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium, and Kent Freshwater Plant [not to be confused with their Plant-Pro which is quite different]. I have also looked at Nutrafin's Plant-Gro though haven't used it (yet) and think it should be fine. Some of the other brands I will not recommend.

The pH of your tap water might rise after it has sat for a day, due to the dissipation of CO2 from the water which is normal in many places. I would check the tank water pH daily once the filter and heater are operating just to ascertain any shifts. Once the tank is set up with fish and plants and bacteria, the pH will tend to drop to become more acidic, unless the KH of the water is high enough to buffer it or there is calcareous rock/gravel in the tank that releases mineral (calcium and magnesium primarily) into the water to keep the pH and hardness up. Any particularly sensitive fish should not be acquired for a new tank until the tank is biologically established, usually 2-3 months; once there is a biological equilibrium, shifts in pH and hardness are much less likely to occur, and such shifts can be dangerous to many fish.

Byron.


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## WisFish (Dec 16, 2008)

Angel079 said:


> Ok, so I'm the newbie now have no tank exp and I'll go for the plants (Stems) my LFS has here and I'll set it up with Flourite.... Now how will this help ANY if you'm covering my tank with a bunch Ludwigia, Camboma, Rotala etc??? Non at all would it now!? So I just spent some $60+ (assuming a 55g tank) for no reason at all cause these plants will not benefit from it and i STILL have to go out and buy a liquid fert...so where's the added benefit in that?
> 
> Now I'm the Other newbie and I'm telling you I wanna stock my tank with Kleiner Bar, Amazon, narrowleaf chain etc.....YAY then using flourite makes perfect sense; if you in fact live in some parts of the US that has RO water coming from the tap. For ref look at my tanks and its Swords which have zero flourit, zero sticks, zero liquid nadda - You tell me these plants look poor? I highly doubt it.
> 
> ...


Okay I said I was going to drop this and here I go again.

1) I'd only recommend Flourite if a newbie was going to have Amazon Swords. They really like the iron Flourite or Root Tabs provide. (the swords that is) I agree that only root feeding plants will benefit from Flourite.
2) Your 3 newbie scenarios are aimed perfectly at what I'm trying to get at. Based on the type of plants, Flourite May be of some benefit. (see point #1)
3) Everyone states that Flourite is more expensive than root tabs. Using an online web site, Flourite was twice the price of plain gravel. Using your example above, that $30 more than gravel. I just bought Flourite root tabs from that same online store for $7. The package says the tabs last for 3-4 months. If I dosed according to the label, I'd use the whole box in that 3-4 months. That's $21-$28 a year; pretty close to the same $30 more I paid for the Flourite. After 1 year, the Flourite "gravel" would have been cheaper. Granted you only need to use root tabs near the swords but still, over time the Flourite would be cheaper.
4) Flourite gravel is not a replacement for liquid ferts. If you're using liquid ferts now you'll still want to do that.

So I'm not saying everyone should go out and buy Flourite, I just think it has it's place in planted aquaria. Just like I notice you don't use liquid ferts, most people would argue you have to. And you knwo that's not true.

And finally, here's a web site from someone that really loved Flourite. Althought some of the pictures of her aquariums are no longer available, she had excellent results with Flourite and CO2. (and we all know you don't need CO2 for healthy plants!)

How to Wash FLUORITE


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

75 and that's for a 44g? I think 50lbs will be just enough :-D
What kinda fish were you planning on getting?
I totally hate that too how they sell the "kit" yet it doesn't have hardness, makes no sense whatsoever.
Dep on the exact plans you wanna get that may be enough to cover the 44g nicely after a while...may not be.
I'd base the plant food of the exact plants you wanna get. Like I wrote in the examples for wishfish. If you're gonna have stem plants and crypts etc get a good liquid fert (Saechems) and if you wanna have Swords buy some root sticks (I used API, Nutrafin etc).


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

WisFish said:


> 1) I'd only recommend Flourite if a newbie was going to have Amazon Swords. They really like the iron Flourite or Root Tabs provide. (the swords that is) I agree that only root feeding plants will benefit from Flourite.
> 2) Your 3 newbie scenarios are aimed perfectly at what I'm trying to get at. Based on the type of plants, Flourite May be of some benefit. (see point #1)


Alright so far we agree :-D



WisFish said:


> 3) Everyone states that Flourite is more expensive than root tabs. Using an online web site, Flourite was twice the price of plain gravel. Using your example above, that $30 more than gravel. I just bought Flourite root tabs from that same online store for $7. The package says the tabs last for 3-4 months. If I dosed according to the label, I'd use the whole box in that 3-4 months. That's $21-$28 a year; pretty close to the same $30 more I paid for the Flourite. After 1 year, the Flourite "gravel" would have been cheaper. Granted you only need to use root tabs near the swords but still, over time the Flourite would be cheaper.


And there again read your own point 1) & 2)...all matter of set up, like me I have 2 Swords in the whole 55g set up. If I buy Flourite locally its gonna run me $28 per bag *3=$84...Nutrafin PLant sticks are $4 (for 6) which are to be replaced 1x year and I use only 1/2stick per sword (works great btw) so that lasts me 12 yrs per pack at $4 per pack I can buy me 252 packs for that....Its all about what you truly need for the plants;-)



WisFish said:


> 4) Flourite gravel is not a replacement for liquid ferts. If you're using liquid ferts now you'll still want to do that.


Essentially what you're saying if you're planting a tank full of stem plants then, I am out the money for the substrate and STILL gotta buy liquid ferts then....



WisFish said:


> So I'm not saying everyone should go out and buy Flourite, I just think it has it's place in planted aquaria. Just like I notice you don't use liquid ferts, most people would argue you have to. And you knwo that's not true.


 Nop outta all my tanks only 1 gets ferts and I'm truthfully believing my planted tank pic's speak for themselves...had I the problem my plants show signs (dropping leaf's, yellow, holes etc yea then I would) but as my jungles are growing now why should I use; why mess with something that has excellent results as it is (its sorta like me medicating my fish when they're not sick IMO)...why fix something that ain't broken? Just cause the commercials say so? Uhm nop:-D


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Angel079 said:


> 75 and that's for a 44g? I think 50lbs will be just enough :-D
> What kinda fish were you planning on getting?
> I totally hate that too how they sell the "kit" yet it doesn't have hardness, makes no sense whatsoever.
> Dep on the exact plans you wanna get that may be enough to cover the 44g nicely after a while...may not be.
> I'd base the plant food of the exact plants you wanna get. Like I wrote in the examples for wishfish. If you're gonna have stem plants and crypts etc get a good liquid fert (Saechems) and if you wanna have Swords buy some root sticks (I used API, Nutrafin etc).


Silly me, I read the big letters on the gravel bag that said "2 lbs / gallon". 

As for fish, what I'm thinking now is I'll probably start out with a 1/2 dozen zebra danios and maybe 4-5 mollies (too much for a 'fresh' tank?). Once the tank is cycled in a couple of weeks, I would like to slowly add a ~4 albino cories, ~5 black kuhli loaches, a red tail shark, maybe a betta, and some shrimp and a snail or two to mix it up.

I ended up picking up the Fluval 305 cannister filter this evening. I'm planning on using (from bottom to top) charcoal, ammonia remover (just in case), the BioMax, and the 'polishing pad' in the filter.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LMychajluk said:


> Silly me, I read the big letters on the gravel bag that said "2 lbs / gallon".
> 
> As for fish, what I'm thinking now is I'll probably start out with a 1/2 dozen zebra danios and maybe 4-5 mollies (too much for a 'fresh' tank?). Once the tank is cycled in a couple of weeks, I would like to slowly add a ~4 albino cories, ~5 black kuhli loaches, a red tail shark, maybe a betta, and some shrimp and a snail or two to mix it up.
> 
> I ended up picking up the Fluval 305 cannister filter this evening. I'm planning on using (from bottom to top) charcoal, ammonia remover (just in case), the BioMax, and the 'polishing pad' in the filter.


This tank will be planted so I would not use carbon (I assume your charcoal is actually carbon) or ammonia remover media. Carbon removes nutrients that the plants need. And plants need and use the ammonia/ammonium to grow so no issue there. I thought the Fluval had ceramic disks in the first chamber...they are fine. Then the bio max, then the pad(s).

If you plant the tank well before adding the fish, there will be no "cycle" to speak of. I explained this only yesterday in this thread [post #2]: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/aquarium-plants/true-36236/ I would introduce the zebras first.

Byron.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Byron said:


> This tank will be planted so I would not use carbon (I assume your charcoal is actually carbon) or ammonia remover media. Carbon removes nutrients that the plants need. And plants need and use the ammonia/ammonium to grow so no issue there. I thought the Fluval had ceramic disks in the first chamber...they are fine. Then the bio max, then the pad(s).
> 
> If you plant the tank well before adding the fish, there will be no "cycle" to speak of. I explained this only yesterday in this thread [post #2]: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/aquarium-plants/true-36236/ I would introduce the zebras first.
> 
> Byron.


<Runs to newly set up tank to pull carbon from filter>

The Fluval 305 had a foam pad, plus 3 levels of trays. I'm not sure what the ceramic discs are... I didn't see anything like that. The BioMax (the 1/2" ceramic 'tubes') are in the top tray with a layer of the polishing pads (finer foam) on top.

I got 6 plants form the LFS. The guy there said my setup (2x18"/15W flourescents in a 24" deep corner tank) really doesn't have enough lighting to grow many types of plants. He suggested a couple, and I picked a couple of Undulata(?), and 4 unknown plants (well, known, but I don't remember the name) about ~6-8" tall w/ big leafs and he said would 'grow like crazy'. I figured I'll see how these grow and take it from there. BTW, he gave me a SeaChem Plant Pack and suggested I use them until the tank's up and running fully, then maintain w/ Flourish.

Water right now is testing at a pH of 7.3, and the LFS said it was 75 (ppm?), which they said was fine. That was with a sample I took prior to adding anything to the water, and I've since treated with API Tap Water Conditioner, dosed with the LFS-recommended Dr. Tim's Eco-Balance Probiotics, then a dose of each of the 3 SeaChem plant treatments from the Plant Pack.

I'm thinking I should get a few fish in there pretty soon, otherwise, I'm just feeding the plants with the SeaChem stuff. The idea is to get a balance between the fish and the plants, right (though I don't think a 1/2 dozen plants could be considered 'well planted')?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LMychajluk said:


> <Runs to newly set up tank to pull carbon from filter>
> 
> The Fluval 305 had a foam pad, plus 3 levels of trays. I'm not sure what the ceramic discs are... I didn't see anything like that. The BioMax (the 1/2" ceramic 'tubes') are in the top tray with a layer of the polishing pads (finer foam) on top.
> 
> ...


You have sufficient plants to introduce fish, the group of zebras will be ideal to start.

The ceramic disks are shown here Aquatic products
Fluval calls it "Pre Filter", you fill the first tray (first as the water enters the filter) with this and it lasts for ever, just rinse it as needed, it traps larger material so the pads don't get clogged first.

Byron.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Hmm... looks just like the 'Biomax'...
Aquatic products

I'll pick some of the 'Pre-Filter' up. Can't hurt, and the media generally isn't too expensive.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Just an update for anyone that cares...So far, so good (for the most part).

I probably went a bit overboard, and added 8 zebras, 6 Flame Tetras, and 4 Albino Corys, but all the fish seem happy enough, though the Flame Tetras don't seem to like the flake food I'm giving them. pH is ~7, and everything else is still testing at 0.

Here's the but - one of those Cryptocoryne Undalata plants doesn't seem to be doing too well. The leaves look like they're burning. I planted 2 of these plants in opposite corners of the tank, and the other seems to be doing fine. I dosed the tank with the SeaChem plant nutrients again and I'll see how it is tomorrow, but if it gets worse, I think I'm going to have to pull it from the tank... can't understand what happened to it, though...


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LMychajluk said:


> Just an update for anyone that cares...So far, so good (for the most part).
> 
> I probably went a bit overboard, and added 8 zebras, 6 Flame Tetras, and 4 Albino Corys, but all the fish seem happy enough, though the Flame Tetras don't seem to like the flake food I'm giving them. pH is ~7, and everything else is still testing at 0.
> 
> Here's the but - one of those Cryptocoryne Undalata plants doesn't seem to be doing too well. The leaves look like they're burning. I planted 2 of these plants in opposite corners of the tank, and the other seems to be doing fine. I dosed the tank with the SeaChem plant nutrients again and I'll see how it is tomorrow, but if it gets worse, I think I'm going to have to pull it from the tank... can't understand what happened to it, though...


*No...*not to worry, its what we call crypt meltdown. Cryptocoryne are very sensitive plants to any change in water parameters, light, and/or nutrients. When you move them to another tank, like buying new ones or even from tank to tank depending upon parameters, they will "melt" if there are significant differences in water, nutrients or light. WisFish I think it was had his melt when he increased the light. Melt means the leaves disintegrate into a pile of mush. Vaccuum the mush out but leave the roots. They usually recover with new leaves in sometimes a few days, sometimes weeks, if it is simply a change in tanks.

On the Seachem, I'll assume it is Flourish Comprehensive. Don't overuse it, it can kill plants and fish. Use only the recommended dose, it only takes a half teaspoon for 30 gallons, and once a week, maybe twice at first, but no more. It takes new plants a few weeks to "settle."

Byron.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Thanks for the tips, Byron. That does sound like what's happening - the leaves on the plant look like they've been hit with an alien disintegrator ray.

The SeaChem 'kit' I got from the LFS when I bought the plants is a box w/ a bottle each of the Flourish Potasium, Phosphorus, and Nitrogen in seperate bottles. I also have a bottle of SeaChem Flourish comprehensive that I originally bought on your recommendation, but haven't used it. I dosed the tank (using the kit) on Saturday when I first put the plants in, but that was before I realized that the carbon in the filter would remove it. I took the carbon out of the filter (I think on Sunday), but never 'replaced' the plant nutrients, so (based on the directions, which said 1-2 times / week) I thought it was safe to add another dose earlier tonight. I did use a little less than recommended for my size tank, and I'll keep it to once a week max from now on.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LMychajluk said:


> Thanks for the tips, Byron. That does sound like what's happening - the leaves on the plant look like they've been hit with an alien disintegrator ray.
> 
> The SeaChem 'kit' I got from the LFS when I bought the plants is a box w/ a bottle each of the Flourish Potasium, Phosphorus, and Nitrogen in seperate bottles. I also have a bottle of SeaChem Flourish comprehensive that I originally bought on your recommendation, but haven't used it. I dosed the tank (using the kit) on Saturday when I first put the plants in, but that was before I realized that the carbon in the filter would remove it. I took the carbon out of the filter (I think on Sunday), but never 'replaced' the plant nutrients, so (based on the directions, which said 1-2 times / week) I thought it was safe to add another dose earlier tonight. I did use a little less than recommended for my size tank, and I'll keep it to once a week max from now on.


Lee,

The Flourish Comprehensive is the most important fert you've got, use it. It contains all the micro-nutrients including iron which is essential. This is probably part of the problem with the crypts; they require iron, not a lot, but it has to be there, especially the red/brown leaf species.

As for the other three, if there are fish in the tank you do not need nitrogen. Nitrogen occurs in the aquarium in 3 main forms, ammonia/ammonium, nitrite and nitrate. As I detail in Parts 1 & 2 of the sticky "A Basic Approach..." plants prefer nitrogen as ammonium, and use the ammonia produced by the fish as their main source. This is part of their filtration job, and if you start dosing nitrogen you will be increasing the biological filtration by nitrifying bacteria which in turn is detrimental to plants... all this is a complex balance cycle that can't be messed with. Particularly in new tanks where the biological equilibrium is still shaky. And you have plenty of fish to provide ammonia/ammonium. Nitrogen is not a nutrient that should ever be required as an additive in a natural (low-tech) tank..

Potassium is sometimes lacking, depending upon your tap water and fish foods, but I have never in 15 years had cause for adding it. Same with phosphorus which is generally sufficient from fish foods and such.

I strongly recommend you stop the nitrogen, potassium and phosphorus, and use Flourish Comprehensive twice a week for 2 weeks, then once a week, at the recommended dose. I'm suggesting twice a week only because with the use of the other three alone there is clearly an imbalance. This may also have had an impact on the crypt meltdown. Crypts are slow growing plants which mean they can store some nutrients for later, but plants that do this sometimes end up deficient because of that balance in nutrients. Try what I suggest and keep me posted via this thread on results.

Byron.


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## WisFish (Dec 16, 2008)

I had crypts in my tank for the last 20 years. The entire floor of the tank was covered in them. Then I decided to upgrade from the two - 24" single bulb fictures that came with the tank. I went to the 4' tripple tube model. At the same time I started using Excel and added a bunch of new plants. Ferts remained the same. All the crypts in direct contact with the light melted. All the ones in the shade did fine. Even today, whenever one of the existing crypts starts to grow well, all soon as it gets exposed to the direct light, it melts. 

Seeing how well Byron's larger tanks do with less light, I may try removing one of my bulbs to see what effect it has on the crypts. I really miss those plants. They made a nice ground cover.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Just an update - the Crypto lost a few leaves, but seems to be hanging in there.

I also found a hardness test kit at the LFS tonight, so I finally was able to check that. KH is 2, and GH is 7 (pH still hovering between 7 and 7.2). Anything I should be thinking about?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LMychajluk said:


> Just an update - the Crypto lost a few leaves, but seems to be hanging in there.
> 
> I also found a hardness test kit at the LFS tonight, so I finally was able to check that. KH is 2, and GH is 7 (pH still hovering between 7 and 7.2). Anything I should be thinking about?


I went back through this thread to check on the fish, and from what has been mentioned (zebra danios, flame tetras, mollies, common corydoras) I don't see any issues over your water parameters. The relatively low KH will not do a lot of pH buffering, so in time the pH may creep down slightly acidic. That will be great for all but the mollies; they will definitely not do well below a pH of 7.2 so keep an eye on the pH (on new tanks I generally test for the first few days, then once a week before I do the pwc but not more often unless I see it moving up or down). 

We will need to work out how to raise the pH/hardness if the pH does fall below 7 if you intend to have mollies. Were it me, rather than mess with water fluctuations, I would leave out the mollies from this tank and if you want them (they are neat fish, I've had a tank of them before) set up a suitable tank with calcareous gravel for just the mollies. We can talk about this more if you're interested.

Byron.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

I'm not stuck on the mollies. Actually, I've been thinking that I might not want any live-bearers breeding in my tank just yet, so I'm going to stick to the corys, tetras, danios, and loaches to start out.

Using the calculator I mentioned in my OP, a pH range of 6-7.6 and a hardness of 5-15 dH (I'm assuming gH?) is suggested for what I'm looking to keep. I've been testing the water every day, but will probably cut that back to every 2-3 days at this point.

I've been reading up a bit on kH and how a higher kH helps to stabilize the pH (right?) and keep it from fluctuating too quickly. I have noticed in the last week (since I set up the tank) that the pH has dropped ~.4 from what it was out of the tap. Should I try and raise the kH up a bit to keep the pH in balance? I know some of the commercial buffers (API's Proper pH, for example) contain phospates that aren't good for the plants. Maybe some crushed limestone in one of my filter baskets would be beneficial, or would that also raise the pH too much? I also see that some people simply add a little baking soda...


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Just tested my water again. Looks like the pH is still dropping (looks to be more like 6.8 this morning, down from ~7-7.2 Thu evening). Everything else still seems to be stable. I should note that I tested in the morning, and I've been turning the aerator off overnight (I don't know if the o2/co2 in the water would affect pH).

The zebras and tetras seem fine, with good colors and swimming around all over the tank, but the corys seem really lethargic. Most of them are hanging in the back under the filter intake. Some of them are even 'listing' a bit, and not staying upright. I don't see any discoloration or anything around thier gills that would indicate they're having trouble, though...they just look like they're sleeping all the time.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LMychajluk said:


> Just tested my water again. Looks like the pH is still dropping (looks to be more like 6.8 this morning, down from ~7-7.2 Thu evening). Everything else still seems to be stable. I should note that I tested in the morning, and I've been turning the aerator off overnight (I don't know if the o2/co2 in the water would affect pH).
> 
> The zebras and tetras seem fine, with good colors and swimming around all over the tank, but the corys seem really lethargic. Most of them are hanging in the back under the filter intake. Some of them are even 'listing' a bit, and not staying upright. I don't see any discoloration or anything around thier gills that would indicate they're having trouble, though...they just look like they're sleeping all the time.


The pH lowering in the period and by the numbers you give is not bothering those fish, including the corys. Test for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate if you can, just to eliminate the possibility of one of these being the issue.

But why are you turning off the aerator? By which, do you mean an airstone or filter? Night is when you should run these, rather than during the day. The CO2 affects pH, as I'll explain next.

There is a diurnal shift in pH every day in a planted aquarium. The pH will be it's lowest at the start of the day when the lights come on, and at its highest when the lights go out. In my aquaria the shift is about .4 or .5, in the 115g from 6.0 to 6.4 or 6.5 every day, then it drops back at night. This is perfectly natural and the fish are used to it; it occurs in nature too. When you are testing pH to determine fluctuations from day to day or week to week, always test at the same time each day so that you will get an accurate reading for the time of day.

I don't think you're at the point of needing buffers yet; those fish will be fine down to pH 6. If that occurs, I would use dolomite gravel, a very small amount in a nylon filter bag in the filter will work. I use 1/2 cup in my 115g and it maintains a steady and stable pH of 6.0 to 6.2 and has for years.

Byron.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Yep... been testing Ammonia, Nitrate, and Nitrite each time as well. Each are still all testing at 0, and have been all week. I'm not worried as much about the current pH as the gradual drop, or the low kH allowing a large potential swings in pH that may be more than the fish can take.

By 'aerator' I mean an air-powered ornament that I have that I've been using as an airstone (the bubbles it puts out are very tiny/fine). The filter is on 24/7. I've been turning it off because I was worried that the plants wouldn't have enough CO2 if I left it on 24 hours/day (based on your stickies in the Plant forum), and I figured the fish would appreciate the break from the disturbance while resting at night. Now that I have a few more fish in there generating CO2, though, I suppose I can leave it on, or just run it overnight if that's better.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LMychajluk said:


> Yep... been testing Ammonia, Nitrate, and Nitrite each time as well. Each are still all testing at 0, and have been all week. I'm not worried as much about the current pH as the gradual drop, or the low kH allowing a large potential swings in pH that may be more than the fish can take.
> 
> By 'aerator' I mean an air-powered ornament that I have that I've been using as an airstone (the bubbles it puts out are very tiny/fine). The filter is on 24/7. I've been turning it off because I was worried that the plants wouldn't have enough CO2 if I left it on 24 hours/day (based on your stickies in the Plant forum), and I figured the fish would appreciate the break from the disturbance while resting at night. Now that I have a few more fish in there generating CO2, though, I suppose I can leave it on, or just run it overnight if that's better.


Aerators should not be run during the day, only at night is fine. Plants need all the CO2 they can get, I explain this in detail in Part 3 of the sticky series at the top of this section, that will tell you why this is important. It is onlyduring the day that plants need CO2 to photosynthesize; at night they don't need it, and both they and the fish produce it, so running the aerator at night will not hurt the plants or fish from that aspect.

If you test the pH every morning at the same time, I suspect it will be stable as I explained. If not, let us know.

Byron.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Well, been trying not to futz with the tank, but I did do a 20% water change on Sunday. I also added a few more plants over the weekend that I don't think I mentioned yet... 2 Giant hairgrass, 2 Moneywort, and a Cardinal plant.

Today, I came home to find one dead Cory. 

The Zebras and Flame Tetras seem Ok (though I may be missing one of the Zebras...they're hard to count). They have good colors and fairly active, chasing each other around a bit, though they don't seem to be eating that much (I feed a pinch of flakes once a day). But the Corys are still pretty lathargic, just laying on the bottom, sometimes at odd angles. I dropped an algea wafer in the other day, and they didn't seem interested in it. Once in a while one may perk up for a few minutes and swim around, or shoot to the surface, but then go right back to laying on the bottom. But, other than the lethargy, they don't look like anything is wrong. The plants seem to be doing OK as well, except as previously mentioned.

pH 7.4 (Don't know why, but it seems to be more stable than a few days ago)
Ammonia, Nitrate, and Nitrite are all still 0
kH is 4
gH is 10
Temp is ~77

Everything seems within range for the Corys, so i don't know what's bothering them. I was at my parent's over the weekend, and watched 2 Corys in thier tank swim back and forth at mid-tank all afternoon.

Any thoughts? I'm afraid I may lose more Cory....


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Lethargy in corydoras usually means there is something they don't like in the water. For example, if I absolutely need to medicate their tank, they will invariably become lethargic, and respiration increases ("breathing faster"). Or something toxic, like overdosing iron or copper, or obviously ammonia and nitrite which you say tests zero. Are yours respirating faster?

When you answer that, could you also indicate what if anything is going into the water, like fertilizers (I read back and you were only going to use Flourish Comprehensive), are you and how often? I assume you used a water conditioner with the water change Sunday? Any other stuff?

Byron.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Thanks for checking in, Byron.

I did use the API Tap Water Conditioner when I changed the water on Sunday, and I put a capful of the Flourish Comp in on Saturday when I added the plants, and wasn't planning on using it again for ~week or so. Other than that, I used a capful of API ph-Down on Sunday and another capful last night when the pH was reading 7.8 after the water change, thinking maybe the pH was a bit high for the Corys. Now that it's 7.4, I still think it may be a bit high for them, but don't want to add any more pH-Down so the kH stays steady where it is. I've been reading about CO2 injection, and how it can be used to control pH, and may look into this some more in the future.

Occasionally, the Corys seem to be breathing hard, but not all of them, or at least, not all at once. Right now, one looks like he's 'chewing' on something and flapping his gills, but the others seem to just be hanging out and not in any distress. It's hard to tell if it's the same one always breathing hard, or if each has 'spurts' of breathing difficulty. When I saw that, I thought that there was something in the water that they didn't like, like you said, but the only thing that showed on the tests was the pH being a bit high (hence, the ph-Down). Other than that, there still doesn't seem to be any inflamation around the gills, eyes, etc... that's obvious.

If you think any of it may help, I have carbon and Fluval's Ammonia Remover media that I can add to the filter. I know it may not be the best for the plants, and may remove some of the fertilizers, but maybe that's a good thing, at least for the Corys? (Currently, the filter just has the sponge, pre-filter media, Bio-Max, and the water polishing sponge.) I also have API's StressCoat and StressZyme, but haven't added any in the last few days (maybe last Thu?) and a bottle of AmmoLock on hand, just in case the Ammonia starts to spike and I can't do a water change immediately (i.e., I'm heading out for work), but haven't used that, either.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Whoa!!! I just realized my mistake! I haven't been waiting a few minutes before reading the Ammonia test results! I just tested again, and it's showing as .5ppm! I just made the assumption that the test works just like the pH test, and has immediate results. I've been doing the Nitrate/Nitrite tests wrong too, but, thankfully, they're still showing as 0 for both now that I re-did them following the instructions _exactly_.

For now, I'm going to try the Ammo-Lock, which claims to immediately de-tox the ammonia while still leaving it in a state that the bacteria can use, and a dose of StressZyme to see if I can kick-start the bacteria processing. If the ammonia gets any higher, though, I'll do another water change tomorrow.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Lee, *please* do not jump into things. You have to take time with fish. I'll address issues from your last two posts.

First, the ammonia. Test kits, at least the API, read ammonia immediately, you do not have to wait. Once you add the drops and shake the tube, the colour is the indicator. Same as pH tests. The Ammolock won't hurt if it's actually needed, but if the ammonia is not above zero it is wasted and one less chemical going into the tank is preferable.

Second, the pH down is probably stressing the corys. These chemicals are dangerous to add to a tank containing fish. I don't care what the labels may say, chemicals will stress fish. The pH of your water may be buffered by the KH, and no attempt to lower it with these products will work long-term, and the fluctuations are worse on the fish than having a pH that is other than their preference. Plus, there are natural ways to lower pH over time. I suggest you do a pwc to remove this chemical and don't use it; I suspect your corys will improve. If they continue as is, they will probably weaken and may die, these things long-term can be fatal.

The API "Tap Water Conditioner" is fine. The Flourish Comprehensive is fine once a week, but you should use it a day after the partial water change so you aren't removing the trace elements with the water change.

Byron.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

"Test kits, at least the API, read ammonia immediately, you do not have to wait."

All I know is that when I was doing the tests initially, I would shake the tube, and the solution would be yellow (0ppm), and then I'd usually discard the solution immediately after reading. When I tested when I got home from work yesterday at ~6pm, this is what I read it as. I went out for a bit, and then tested again when I got home (after my first post, ~10:30pm), though for some reason I decided to re-read the directions first and saw that they said to wait 5 minutes for the solution to 'develop'. When I did this and waited, the solution turned green (~.5ppm). Is it possible for the Ammonia to go up .5ppm in a couple of hours?

I was thinking that a few drops of the pH-Down per day would be less stressful to the Corys than the high pH, but if you think pH closer to 8 than 7 isnt bad, and to just let the pH do what it will, I'll lay off the ph-Down. I was trying to keep the conditions 'in range'. BTW, I had added the AmmoLock and StressZyme (not the Tap Water Conditioner) based on the little recommendation chart that came with the API Test Kit.

And, just to clarify, my understanding of the API products is this:
*StressCoat* - Water Conditioner + Aloe Vera
*Tap Water Conditioner* - Concentrated StressCoat, minus the Aloe Vera
*StressZyme* - Bacteria / Biofilter booster
*ph-Down* - Pretty much Sulphuric Acid to decrease pH. Instructions say safe to use as long as you don't change pH >.2 in 24hrs
*Ammo-Lock* - De-chlorinator + converts ammonia to less-toxic ammonium, which can still be used by the bacteria, but will _not_ lower Ammonia test readings

Other than the pH-Down stressing the fish (is this because it may only be temporary, and 'rebound' back to it's original values?), and the general 'chemicals are bad', are there any major downsides to using any of these?

I'm leaving the office soon (to fight my way home through the blizzard here in NJ), and will re-test everything when I get home and see what's going on today.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Couple of things here.

I only test water during daylight because pure daylight (not direct sunlight) is more exact in colour rendition. Different room lights can accent different colours, so try to use daylight. Certainly never use fluorescent light, all fluorescent tubes distort colours somewhat.

Re the products. Water conditioner is necessary, some on here are against any aloe vera or similar coating products. Ammo-lock is fine if needed, and if you think ammonia is an issue, it won't hurt and may well benefit. Stress-Zyme is supposedly bacteria so should be OK, but there are others who don't recommend these things. I would not use this particular product after initial setup if I were you because of what it claims to do, break down organic sludge: http://cms.marsfishcare.com/files/scienceinside/stress%20zyme%20sl.pdf
In a planted tank, this is not useful and quite the opposite, that organic "sludge" gets broken down naturally by bacteria and provides nutrients for the plants. I don't like messing with nature.

pH adjusters I will not use. The "safe to use once in 24 hours" is not altogether true. While the chemicals may be safe in themselves, the natural buffering of the water (determined by the KH) can affect these. I am one who does not believe in adding any chemical substance to an aquarium with live fish unless it is absolutely essential. Water conditioners to neutralize chlorine and chloramine is essential. That is all that ever goes into my tanks, aside from plant nutrients.

Corydoras are especially sensitive fish. I have kept them for 20 years, and have lost several always due to chemicals, medications, or new tanks not biologically established. I can't say the pH down is the culprit, but I can say it is not going to be easy on corydoras. And if something else is causing them problems, adding to it will certainly make it worse.

Let us know the test results and if anything surfaces I'm sure one of us will have suggestions. Final note, a daily pwc with conditioner is often the best treatment.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Ok, got home about an hour ago. Everyone in the tank is still alive, if not exactly kickin'. The tetras and zebras still seem fine, but most of the Corys are still kind of lethargic. However, 1 is swimming around slowly, poking around in the gravel here and there, and another is showing some signs of activity. The others may just be messing with me...they're laying pretty still, but don't seem to be breathing too hard. However, if I walk away for a minute and come back, they all seem to have changed positions in the tank.
:hmm:

Numbers seem pretty consistent with yesterday, with alkalinity and hardness down a touch:
pH - 7.4
Ammonia - .5
Nitrate - 0
Nitrite - 0
kH - 2
gH - 7

Unfortunately, I can't really read the test results in daylight. This time of year, the sun is barely up when I'm leaving for work, and it's already down when I get home. I read the results under the MR16 halogens over my kitchen counter.

Unless you really think I should, I'm going to hold off on the water change tonight. The Corys seem to be making a slight recovery, and I don't want to do anything else to upset that. According to the label, the dose of AmmoLock from last night should have been enough to neutralize 4ppm, so I'm thinking that the .5ppm that I'm still reading isn't really dangerous to the fish. If the ammonia goes up any more by tomorrow, I can do one tomorrow night.

Thanks agian for the help and insights.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LMychajluk said:


> Ok, got home about an hour ago. Everyone in the tank is still alive, if not exactly kickin'. The tetras and zebras still seem fine, but most of the Corys are still kind of lethargic. However, 1 is swimming around slowly, poking around in the gravel here and there, and another is showing some signs of activity. The others may just be messing with me...they're laying pretty still, but don't seem to be breathing too hard. However, if I walk away for a minute and come back, they all seem to have changed positions in the tank.
> :hmm:
> 
> Numbers seem pretty consistent with yesterday, with alkalinity and hardness down a touch:
> ...


I think you're OK to let it sit. The Ammo-lock will neutralize ammonia by changing it to ammonium which you will still detect but it will be harmless. A pwc is the best treatment if things worsen. Keep us posted, and good luck. B.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Everyone's still alive. The Cory's don't seem to be gasping as much, but are still lethargic. When I fed them, though, one or two seemed to respond to the flakes in the tank and swam around a bit. I noticed one of the tetras looking like he was choking last night and hanging out near the bottom under a plant, and he's still doing that today, but the rest of them and the zebras are still pretty active and seem OK.

My numbers for today:
ph - 6.6
Ammonia - .5
Nitrate - 0
Nitrite - 0
kH - 2
gH - 10

I haven't added anything to the tank, but the pH dropped just like last week. (I've been testing within an hour of 7pm all week.) The only thing I did do was turn up the filter flow before I went to bed last night, figuring a little extra circulation might be good for the fish (I usually kept it at ~65%). I'm going to hold off on the water change until I hear back from you, since the only thing I can see it accomplishing at this point is increasing the pH and maybe kH a bit. Let me know if you have any thoughts...


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Your pH does seem to be moving around. But, leave it. I would let it settle where it wants. None of the fish you have will be harmed by acidic water, and ammonia becomes ammonium in acidic water so no issues there. Your KH is low so little buffering. Monitor the pH over a week, do a pwc once a week, 40%, use a conditioner. That should be it. Keep us posted. I expect if you do this the corys will bounce back. They will be very happy in acidic water. B.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Well, Friday night I did about a 1/3 water change, figuring the fish would appreciate it. Treated with the API Water Conditioner in a bucket prior to putting back in the tank. While doing the WC, I added a surface skimmer to the filter intake, becuase the bubbles / surface foam was bothering me. Everone looked happy after the change. Even a couple of the Corys seemed to perk up bit. pH (prior to the change) was ~6.6, ammonia at ~.5ppm, and Nitrates/Nitrites still at 0.

Yesterday (Saturday), I liked what the surface skimmer did overnight. No more film on the surface, and the bubbles from the aerator seem to be popping at the surface instead of being blown around in the tank by the filter output. Water looks very clear. I stopped into a LFS that I hadn't been in before while out in the afternoon, and they had Bananna plants on sale, so I added 3 Bannana plants to the tank.

Late last night, just before going to bed, I noticed one of the remaining Corys was dead. I immedaitely tested the water, and pH was up to 7.4 (expected b/c of water change - tap water has high pH, and time of day), and Ammonia was still 0.5ppm. I wasn't sure what was going on, so I dosed w/ AmmoLock just in case, and added some StressZyme, and decided to sleep on the problem.

Sunday - can't seem to find one of the Corys, but haven't found any more bodies yet, either. Was still trying to figure out what was going on with the Corys and decided to do an ammonia test on the tap water. I came back ~1ppm - higher than what was in the tank(!). Though I was using the API Tap Water Conditioner, when I re-read the label, there's no mention about removing ammonia, only heavy metals and chlorinates (can't get to the API site atm to confirm). I thought the Water Conditioner was just a concentrated StressCoat, w/o the Aloe Vera, but the API StressCoat also claims to remove ammonia from tap water as well as heavy metals and chlorinates, so I guess I'll be using that on my tap water when doing water changes in the future.

My plan of action right now is to leave it for the day, do the tests again this evening at thier usual time, and maybe plan on another water change tomorrow (with properly treated/conditioned tap water!).


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LMychajluk said:


> Well, Friday night I did about a 1/3 water change, figuring the fish would appreciate it. Treated with the API Water Conditioner in a bucket prior to putting back in the tank. While doing the WC, I added a surface skimmer to the filter intake, becuase the bubbles / surface foam was bothering me. Everone looked happy after the change. Even a couple of the Corys seemed to perk up bit. pH (prior to the change) was ~6.6, ammonia at ~.5ppm, and Nitrates/Nitrites still at 0.
> 
> Yesterday (Saturday), I liked what the surface skimmer did overnight. No more film on the surface, and the bubbles from the aerator seem to be popping at the surface instead of being blown around in the tank by the filter output. Water looks very clear. I stopped into a LFS that I hadn't been in before while out in the afternoon, and they had Bananna plants on sale, so I added 3 Bannana plants to the tank.
> 
> ...


The API site seems to be down or something, I can't get on it either. I checked elsewhere, and it says the API Water Conditioner only detoxifies chlorine (not chloramine which surprises me) and binds heavy metals. Stress Coat does this plus chloramines and ammonia, and AmmoLock does chlorine, chloramine and ammonia but not heavy metals. If you have chloramine (which is ammonia-related) make sure you use the Stress Coat or AmmoLock. Of course, whatever it says on the label will be accurate, should this previous info I found not be.

On the corys, it is possible that they were internally damaged by the earlier issues; sometimes this happens, fish will die later from somthing that occurred previously. Corys are highly sensitive to ammonia and any such substance. Keep on as you indicate, monitor and do pwc, using the good conditioner. And keep us updated. Good luck Lee. Byron.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Aw, crap... Now it looks like one of my Corys has pop-eye...poor guy. Didn't notice this last night. He was one of the larger guys, and one of the more active of the bunch. But, he did have an odd blister on his chest (between the pectoral fins)...I don't think I mentioned that earlier, but it seemed to be going away.

Going to head to the LFS and get some Maracyn, and isolate him if I can. I'm also thinking that I should add a Ammonia removal pillow back to the filter for the time being (Ammonia testing ~1ppm this morning).


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LMychajluk said:


> Aw, crap... Now it looks like one of my Corys has pop-eye...poor guy. Didn't notice this last night. He was one of the larger guys, and one of the more active of the bunch. But, he did have an odd blister on his chest (between the pectoral fins)...I don't think I mentioned that earlier, but it seemed to be going away.
> 
> Going to head to the LFS and get some Maracyn, and isolate him if I can. I'm also thinking that I should add a Ammonia removal pillow back to the filter for the time being (Ammonia testing ~1ppm this morning).


If you are using Ammo-Lock as you originally indicated, you don't need pillows or anything else like that. These ammonia detoxifiers work by converting the ammonia to harmless ammonium. Test kits (most of them, including the API) read ammonia and ammonium as ammonia, so getting a reading of 1 ammonia should mean it is actually ammonium and that is harmless to fish. Plants need ammonium, if you have plants (forgotten now).

If you use Maracyn or similar, isolate the fish if possible. This stuff can be detrimental to plants; and some fish have problems with certain medications so always check that before buying something.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Thanks for checking in, Byron.

Turns out the Cory w/ the pop-eye wasn't the same one w/ the blister looking thing on his chest. I put both in the 'hospital' (a bucket for now) with a bubbler w/ some foam and some of the ammonia-removing media from one of the pillows and a little of the Maracyn + Maracyn II. The LFS also suggested a light dose of Melafix for the main tank for a couple of days just to (hopefully) prevent anything from spreading. Do you think the ammonia might've caused an infection that in turn raised these symptoms, or something else? I read that these symptoms may also be from gas bubble disease?

And, yes, I have (what I think is) a bunch of plants. 2 Cryp. Undulata, 2 giant hairgrass, 2 moneywort bunches, 4 big leafy things that I can't remmember what they are now, and 3 banana plants. Except for 1 of the Undulatas, the plants seen to be doing well, and a couple are even putting out shoots. If you think the ammonia @ 1ppm isn't dangerous, especially w/ the AmmoLock, I'll hold off on adding the pillow to the filter. I'd rather there be some ammonia / ammonium in the tank anyway to get the cycle going (I'm actually surprised I'm not seeing any Nitrate/Nitrite yet....), but I thought maybe the pillow would prevent any drastic spikes.

Oh, and here's the other stupid thing I've been doing for the last 2 weeks - my 5 gallon bucket, I just realized, is a 3 gallon bucket. So, when I thought I was doing a 1/3 water change w/ 3 bucket-fulls (15 gal), I was actually doing <1/4 (9 gallons). It also means I've been over-treating the water w/ the tap water conditioner. Grrrr....


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

With so many plants (in what I assume is around a50g tank?) you probably won't see nitrite. Plants consume ammonia/ammonium, and faster than bacteria so in new planted tanks there basically is no cycle period, provided you don't overload the system with too many fish at first. Which makes me wonder why you are getting ammonia results at all. Maybe it is in your tap water?

Mayacyn is detrimental to some plants, they will sort of fall apart, but leave them if they do, they will come back afterwards. Though it is best to treat the lone fish spearately just in case. And I personally wouldn't dose the tank with Metaflix for no real reason. Adding any medication or chemical to a tank without certain cause is not something I recommend.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Yep, I posted about the ammonia in the tap water over the weekend. I never tested it when I initially set up the tank because I didn't think there'd be a reason to, but I have ~1ppm straight out of the tap, and that's using a GE canister-style water filter on the main. Ammonia in the tank seems to be ~.5ppm, less than the tap water (I guess the plants are using it up). When I replace that whole-house filter next, I'll look for a filter that specifically removes ammonia as well. I'm also going to get in touch w/ the local water company about that....ammonia doesn't appear on the water quality report.

I can see that I may never see Nitrite, but if the plants are processing it, shouldn't I be seeing some level of Nitrates, or are the plants using it all up as well? Or is it that it's just too early in the cycle?

After picking up the bubble filter, a cheap air pump, and cheap heater, I got it all home and realized I can't really use the heater w/ the bucket (not submersible, and can't get the water high enough because of the shape of the bucket), and also that I can't see through the sides of the bucket to check on the fish. So, I went back out and got a 5g tank for my 'hospital'. That's where I'm treating the Corys with the Mayacin. The Melafix I added to the main tank (44g corner, just a reminder) as a preventative to try and nip any bacteria that may be being spread around in the bud. The Melafix claims to be safe for all plants.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LMychajluk said:


> Yep, I posted about the ammonia in the tap water over the weekend. I never tested it when I initially set up the tank because I didn't think there'd be a reason to, but I have ~1ppm straight out of the tap, and that's using a GE canister-style water filter on the main. Ammonia in the tank seems to be ~.5ppm, less than the tap water (I guess the plants are using it up). When I replace that whole-house filter next, I'll look for a filter that specifically removes ammonia as well. I'm also going to get in touch w/ the local water company about that....ammonia doesn't appear on the water quality report.
> 
> I can see that I may never see Nitrite, but if the plants are processing it, shouldn't I be seeing some level of Nitrates, or are the plants using it all up as well? Or is it that it's just too early in the cycle?
> 
> After picking up the bubble filter, a cheap air pump, and cheap heater, I got it all home and realized I can't really use the heater w/ the bucket (not submersible, and can't get the water high enough because of the shape of the bucket), and also that I can't see through the sides of the bucket to check on the fish. So, I went back out and got a 5g tank for my 'hospital'. That's where I'm treating the Corys with the Mayacin. The Melafix I added to the main tank (44g corner, just a reminder) as a preventative to try and nip any bacteria that may be being spread around in the bud. The Melafix claims to be safe for all plants.


This is making more sense to me, thanks for this info. The ammonia occurs from the tap water, and you're testing before the plants or bacteria can use it, which is why you're getting a reading. I wouldn't waste time testing further, it is fine. I would use a good conditioner that detoxifies ammonia with each water change, nothing more. Nitrites you will not see, same reason. 

Nitrates depends; in some planted tanks nitrates are zero. In mine they run around 5-10ppm, because I have a lot of fish. This means there is more ammonia, so what the plants don't use the bacteria does. Nitrifying bacteria convert ammonia to nitrite to nitrate as you probably know. This is not what plants do; they use the ammonium (which they can internally convert from ammonia) directly as their preferred source of nitrogen. There is no conversion to nitrite and then to nitrate via plants, they just take up the ammonia and use it as nutrients. So only the ammonia that is taken by the nitrosomonas bacteria will convert to nitrite and then nitrate. The nitrates generally remain until I do a water change, although some plants will also use nitrate as a source of further nitrogen. In aquaria with fewer fish there would be less chance of nitrates occurring. As long as they are under 20ppm there is no concern.

You will probably be OK with the Melafix in your situation. But just so you know, it will outright kill pencilfish, and seriously harm some other sensitive fish. This is why I am not an advocate of using medications for anything unless I have a very real problem and there is no other option and it is a safe certainty that it will do the job. I'm very uninformed on disease and treatments; it is a very complex subject, I have never been good at diagnosing things I see in the tank, and I have learned from my mistakes that often the best cure is nothing more than a major water change. I have twice now in the past year "cured" a fish of ich simply by doing nothing. Fish relatively free of stress have good immune systems, and they can fight such things off. Won't always work of course, but stress free fish is a major step toward healthy fish.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Again, thanks for all the info, Byron! I didn't realize that the plants were using the ammonia/ammonium directly - I just thought it needed to be processed to Nitrate by the bacterias first before the plants could use it. I guess I need to go back and re-read your stickies _again_.

So, it sounds like my tank is moving along ok, then, at least in regards to the nitrogen cycle. There are a few more fish that I'd like to add, including 5 Java Loaches and maybe 2-3 Swordtails, and that'll probably be it for this tank. Maybe later in the week I'll go see what I can find...

But, I do still have a concern about my pH, which is 6.4 tonight, down .2 from last night around this time. Do you think it will keep dropping? According to AqAdvisor - Intelligent Freshwater Tropical Fish Aquarium Stocking Calculator and Aquarium Tank/Filter Advisor, I should maintain a range of 6.4-7 for my selected stocking (well, more like 7 exactly with the Zebras, but I think they can handle a slightly lower pH). My kH is still pretty low - ~2. Given that my tap water is more like 7.6 and it seems to drop steadily when in the tank, do you have any thoughts on this? My last water change of 20% was enough to raise pH from 6.6 to 7.4. I don't want to stress the fish with a big pH swing from a water change, but I do want to keep it in range. Should I try to control it just by doing smaller water changes (5-10%?) a couple of times a week? Do I want to think about getting the kH up a bit to prevent big swings in the pH?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Lee, the pH as it now is is not a problem in itself. However, as you say, the question is if it will continue to drop. This is a long thread but here are the facts I've dug out.

tap water pH: 7.4
tap water hardness 7 dGH, 2 dKH
tank: 40g
substrate: regular plain gravel
filter: Fluval 305 canister
tank set up 2+ weeks ago.
Various chemicals were used, that's been stopped now.

Before jumping into something else, I recommend you let the tank stabilize. As I've said, an acidic pH is not going to hurt the fish you have, even if it goes down to 5. But fluctuating it up and down will. pH does drop in time in all tanks, with a KH of 2, this is natural. It is doing so a bit faster than I would expect, but we need to sort this out before going off in other directions. 

Unless there is another reason to do them, do the water changes weekly; if one was done yesterday or the day before, leave it until a week. Monitor the pH daily, at the same time; I am still concerned over testing during darkness, I have better luck testing during daylight, but if this can't be avoided, make sure the test is the same time of day and under the same artificial light so at least you will notice any changes even if the actual colour may be off a bit. Keep us posted.

Re the swordtails, they are not suitable in acidic water, same as the mollies and all livebearers. Unless you intend to have this tank with hardness and pH in the mid to high 7's, livebearers are not good choices. In any event, I would not add any more fish at present until the tank stabilizes and we find the reason for any pH changes.

Byron.


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## Kelso (Oct 28, 2009)

I just want to put a little of my two cents in from what I've skimmed. Like Byron said, pH is hardly a problem for fish...what is though is fluctuation. I have never used any pH adjusters, and my pH sits at a comfortable 6.1. Granted, I keep fish more suitable for my soft acidic water, but anyway, that range you see in fish profiles is generally more of a suggestion than anything. Except for species like African Cichlids and most livebearers, most fish can and will adapt without any side effects. It's a waste of money as well to buy those chemicals. Secondly, those StressZyme products, all those solutions with beneficial bacteria...they don't work. None of them do. If they were refrigerated they would, but they aren't. When you buy them off the shelf, you're buying a bottle of water and dead bacteria. Totally useless, a waste of more money. Lastly, Ammolock and and other toxin neutralizing products aren't necessary...helpful, but not necessary. They do exactly what you can do for free...a partial water change. I just wanted to second what Byron has helped you with saying so far, and that he definitely is giving you great advice.

But mostly...give your tank time and wait it out. Do water changes. Do not add chemicals. If anything, chemicals make it worse.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Thanks, guys.

Kelso, If I'm not mistaken, Byron said that my pH is not a problem, not that pH is not a problem for fish. He goes on to state that my current pH is not suitable for the swordtails, or livebearers in general (though according to LiveAquaria, guppies do OK in ranges from 5.5 - 8.0?). Your statement about fish adapting to pH sounds contradictory to Byron's? But, I think that we can all agree that the fluctuation is the bigger concern - my tank's pH seems to drop steadily from the tap's 7.4/7.6 down to its current evening value of 6.4, with kH down to 2 and gH in the 8-10 range. I suppose that once I get into a more steady WC routine, that there'll be enough buffering from the tap water to keep the pH in a more narrow range? I think ideally, I'd like it to be in the 6.6-7.2 range, so if I offset my tank's tendency to pull the pH value down towards the low 6's with water changes that add water with a pH of 7.6, can I adjust the ammount of water I change and the frequency to 'control' the pH (and kH?) in this manner, or is there some reason I shouldn't do so?

My last water change was Friday, and was about 20%. I never did the 2nd one over the weekend. At this point, I guess I'll let it sit, monitor, and plan on another 20% water change Friday or Saturday.

BTW, I wanted the swordtails mostly for thier bright colors, and that they tend to stay closer to the surface (figured I'll leave the bottom areas for the Corys and loaches). If anyone has any suggestions as to a colorful mid- to upper-level community fish that prefer the slightly more acidic water that don't get much bigger than 3" or so, I'm open to suggestions. Odessa Barbs, maybe?


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## Kelso (Oct 28, 2009)

Oh no no no, I meant more of what Byron was saying. I guess it came out a bit wrong. I just meant more like given ranges for a fish's pH on a profile, those don't need to be followed to the T. I've seen discus kept in water of a pH around 7.9, yet lead full lives, spawning and dying of old age only. That's more of what i was saying. Maybe I got a bit confused from what I was reading, which was a lot, haha. 

As for something near the surface, what about Killifish?


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

I like Killifish, but they seem awfully expensive for a noob's tank. I wouldn't even think of adding any for at least a few months when I know my tank is 'well-established' and I have a good idea of the trends in my water chemistry.

Edit - I see that LiveAquaria's prices for Killis are per pair, so they're not as expensive as I thought....


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## Kelso (Oct 28, 2009)

Check to see if your lfs can get them in...mine surprisingly got them in. 5 dollars per clown killi. I may get some =D But I definitely understand about the waiting part. Good luck!


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Well, still a little worried about what's going on in my tank. Here's some info:

Tue - pH 6.6, Ammonia 1
Wed - pH 6.6, Ammonia 2
Thu - pH 6.4, Ammonia 2 (changed 20% water after testing)
Fri - pH 6.8 (bumped up from previous night's water change?), Ammonia 2
Sat - pH 7.4, Ammonia 1 (after 35% water change, gravel vac)

So, basically, pH is still dropping slowly, ~.1/day. Not a big deal in and of itself (right?). If it stays in the 6.5-7 range, I can be happy with that. But, the fact that it pops up so much after a water change is a little worrisome to me - seems like that may be stressful to the fish. kH this week has still been ~2 on average. Short of doing more frequent, smaller water changes, do I have any options to prevent big swings in pH? Is a 1 pt. jump even a big swing?

The ammonia is also a mystery to me. I figure 1 isn't too bad at this point, though I do want to see it at 0. Granted, I probably added a few too many fish too quickly, but I have a good number of plants that seem to be doing well. Shouldn't the plants be processing the ammonia, and/or some bacteria developing to pick up the slack? Nitrate/Nitrites are still at 0 after 3 weeks. FWIW, I did vacuum out a lot of debris from the gravel, and after re-filling the tank, I saw a bunch of floating debris that I did my best to net. I'm guessing all that garbage may have been adding to the ammonia levels, so hopefully it'lll be lower now.

Any thoughts? Stready as she goes?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I had to refresh my memory on this issue, but I only went back a page, so if I've missed something else my apology. But from the last few posts involving me, I thought the routine was to be *once a week* pwc (40-50%). If this is more often solely to raise pH, you're fighting a battle that can't be one as I'll explain below. The ammonia is coming from the tapwater and the conditioner that detoxifies ammonia handles that so no issue there.

Your tap water has 2 dKH which is low, mine is somewhere between 0 and 1 as far as I can tell. Neither will buffer extensively, so the pH in an aquarium with such soft water will naturally fall, and continue to do so. My 115g is at 6.0 and my 70g and 90g are at 5 (or perhaps lower, test kit only goes to 5). The 115g is 6 only because I have less than half a cup of dolomite gravel in the filter which raises the GH to 2 and has for 12 years maintained a stable pH. My tap water (soft) has pH of 7.0-7.2 and I do one 50% water change every week; the pH after the pwc rises about .3 or .4 and that is not a problem because it is consistent. I keep acidic water fish, and they are obviously in their element.

Byron.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

I did the WC Thu mostly because I was worried about the Ammonia creeping up, not so much the pH. I knew I wouldn't have time to do the weekly WC on Friday night after work, so I did a smaller one Thu, making sure to properly treat the tap water, just to buy some time until Saturday, when I was able to do a gravel vac and larger WC. (Actually, it didn't help much - Ammonia still tested the same Friday.) I was actually planning to do a larger one today, but it was the first time using the gravel vac, and I under-estimated how much water was removed from the tank, so instead of 50%, I ended up doing a 35% WC.

You say your tank (115g) is usually ~6, and if you change half the water w/ tap water that is 7-7.2, then it goes up .3 or .4, which sounds perfectly reasonable to me, though it also leads me to believe that there's something 'buffering' (if that's the right term in this context) your tank water a bit towards the acidic side (peat? driftwood? other?). Otherwise, a 50/50 mix of 6.0 'pure' water and 7.2 'pure' water would result in water with a pH of 6.6, right? If that's not the case, there's got to be something else in the water that is resisting the change in pH one way or the other (the 'buffer'), right?

What I don't get is how I can do a 1/3 water change and the pH goes from 6.8 to 7.4. If I didn't do the WC on Thu, and did a 50% change today (instead of 1/3), I'm thinking I would've seen a swing of >1 in pH during the WC, instead of the .6 increase. Actually, now that I think about it, if my tap water is 'buffered' more to the high side moreso than the water in the tank is 'buffered' to the low side of the scale, then that would explain the larger swing with smaller water change. But, bottom line, would that 1pt swing in less than an hour during the WC be too much for the fish? If I keep fish that like it more acidic, will they be OK with water in the tank that is ~7.5 for a day or two after the WC until it drops back down 'naturally'?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

> You say your tank (115g) is usually ~6, and if you change half the water w/ tap water that is 7-7.2, then it goes up .3 or .4, which sounds perfectly reasonable to me, though it also leads me to believe that there's something 'buffering' (if that's the right term in this context) your tank water a bit towards the acidic side (peat? driftwood? other?). Otherwise, a 50/50 mix of 6.0 'pure' water and 7.2 'pure' water would result in water with a pH of 6.6, right? If that's not the case, there's got to be something else in the water that is resisting the change in pH one way or the other (the 'buffer'), right?


Several things play into this. In my case, I have basically no hardness in the tap water so the pH of the tap water will easily and quickly drop when mixed with lower pH water as in the aquaria. Also, the biological equilibrium in an established aquarium (after several months) is strong, and tends to hold its own, if you grasp my meaning. Now, if my tap water had hardness that did "buffer" this would be different. But even so, once an aquarium is established it does tend to stay fairly stable.

I have no peat, but lots of bogwood. However, bogwood is not a major acidifier of water, very minimally. And I did have exactly the same scenario during 1998-2002 when I had no wood at all in the 115g (due to an issue with toxic wood that I won't get into here). Same thing; tank remained pH 6.0.
I'll comment on your situation below.



> What I don't get is how I can do a 1/3 water change and the pH goes from 6.8 to 7.4. If I didn't do the WC on Thu, and did a 50% change today (instead of 1/3), I'm thinking I would've seen a swing of >1 in pH during the WC, instead of the .6 increase. Actually, now that I think about it, if my tap water is 'buffered' more to the high side moreso than the water in the tank is 'buffered' to the low side of the scale, then that would explain the larger swing with smaller water change. But, bottom line, would that 1pt swing in less than an hour during the WC be too much for the fish? If I keep fish that like it more acidic, will they be OK with water in the tank that is ~7.5 for a day or two after the WC until it drops back down 'naturally'?


You have some buffering with the KH, though not much. As the tank becomes more and more established, it will continue to lower in pH and the water changes will probably have less and less effect on pH. I recommend you stick with once a week, say 40%. And as you have acidic fish (you earlier indicated the mollies and livebearers are out of the picture) this will only improve their health. I would be careful to not let it drop below pH 6.0 though, and if it shows signs of doing this, some dolomite gravel (only a couple tablespoons) in a nylon bag (like a net-type so water can get through) in the filter or hanging next to the filter outflow will serve to buffer it, as it does for me.

Last comment on the ammonia, I may not have made it clear, my fault, but as long as we know the ammonia is in the tap water and as long as you use an ammonia detoxifier conditioner, this is not a concern. The conditioner detoxifies ammonia by changing it to ammonium which is harmless to fish, but beneficial to plants that will grab it fairly quickly, plus some nitrosomonas bacteria also will. You mentioned previously that it only tests after a water change, not the next day, and this backs up what I'm saying. It is not a concern, I wouldn't even waste time testing for it, so long as you use a good conditioner.

Byron.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Byron said:


> ...As the tank becomes more and more established, it will continue to lower in pH and the water changes will probably have less and less effect on pH.
> ...


Ah, that's what I was looking for, even if my 'buffering' terminology wasn't accurate... So, basically, each week when I do the WC I should see less and less of a fluctuation as the tank becomes more established, provided my tap water pH doesn't change for some reason and I'm changing a consistant ammount of water. In the meantime, I won't be concerned with the sways during the water changes...



Byron said:


> ...I would be careful to not let it drop below pH 6.0 though, and if it shows signs of doing this, some dolomite gravel (only a couple tablespoons) in a nylon bag (like a net-type so water can get through) in the filter or hanging next to the filter outflow will serve to buffer it, as it does for me.
> ...


Will do, though it seemed to bottom out and stabilize at ~6.4, so I think I'm in good shape there. I've given up on the livebearers for now and will look for species that are more suitable to a slightly acidic pH when I'm ready to add more residents.



Byron said:


> ...
> Last comment on the ammonia, I may not have made it clear, my fault, but as long as we know the ammonia is in the tap water and as long as you use an ammonia detoxifier conditioner, this is not a concern. The conditioner detoxifies ammonia by changing it to ammonium which is harmless to fish, but beneficial to plants that will grab it fairly quickly, plus some nitrosomonas bacteria also will. You mentioned previously that it only tests after a water change, not the next day, and this backs up what I'm saying. It is not a concern, I wouldn't even waste time testing for it, so long as you use a good conditioner.


Not sure where you got the idea that I _only_ have ammonia after a water change... Here's where I maybe wasn't clear... The tap water _does_ test for ammonia, ~1ppm, but after a water change, it does still start to creep up in the tank. For example, this week, I watched it creep up from .5 a week ago Friday (2/12), when I did a 20% water change, until I started getting nervous once it looked to be over 2ppm last Thu (hence, the WC on Thu - it was an impulse reaction to the increasing ammonia, not dropping pH). Friday the ammonia seemed to remain 'stable' at 2ppm, and then dropped Saturday back down to 1ppm after the 35% water change.

I've switched to treating the tap water with the API StressCoat+, rather than the Tap Water Conditioner which I was originally using, because it specifically says it removes ammonia (which the Tap Water Conditioner makes no mention of). As far as I can tell, the StressCoat+ actually _removes_ the ammonia from the tap water and doesn't just detoxify it (not quite sure of the chemistry here...). In testing (a drop of StressCoat+ in a test tube full of tap water), the treated tap water shows no ammonia reading, so I'm going on the assumption that the water going into the tank is now ammonia free. That seems to be backed up by my test after Saturday's 35% water change - the Ammonia was testing at 1pp after the wc compared to 2pp the previous night. So, I'm thinking at this point, I can count on a WC to bring ammonia down as well (right?). My concern is that not acting on rising ammonia levels before any 'scheduled' water change next weekend will be detrimental to the fish (i.e., what if it gets to be 8ppm?), but does the ammonia need to reach a certain level before bacteria start to develop?

As always, thanks for the thoughts and insights!


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Just a quick update...

I've been trying all day to surpress my curiosity as to what's going on in the tank, but it got the better of me. Granted, it's later than usual than I normally do my tests, but I'm showing a pH of 6 at 11pm just after lights-out (didn't you say it would be at it's_ highest _at the end of the day?). That's a drop of 1.4 from around 7pm last night... Ammonia is back up to 1ppm, and no Nitrites showing up. I really wasn't expecting it to drop below 6.5 or so. I'm almost tempted to change more water before going to bed, but I'd really appreciate any additional input anyone has on this before I do anything, so I'll hold off for now...


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

This just keeps getting weirder... did a test this morning, and pH is now more like 6.4. Does that make sense that it went up overnight? Did I get it backwards and pH drops throughout the day?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

First, I never trust test colours in artificial light. All artificial light has peaks in certain colours, and these will affect how you see other colours. Just a warning.

Second, I would not fuss over the pH. If it drops naturally the fish will adjust better than if it is continually bobbing up and down. With your acidic-water fish this is really not a concern, although obviously one wants to stabilize it.

Third, if ammonia is rising in the tank on its own (i.e., from something in the tank, not from adding water with ammonia in it) that is more serious and the source must be found. What is the tank size, how many and what type) of fish, and is it well planted?

Byron.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Short of taking the day off of work, I don't have the option of reading the water tests in daylight, but, FWIW, the light I do read it in is consistent.

I'll take your word on the pH and try not to worry about it too much for now...it just makes me nervous when it changes real quick. Oh, I neglected to mention because I didn't think it significant - last night, I turned up the aerator a bit before going to bed, figuring that if I can force a bit of CO2 out of the water, I could at least slow the drop in pH until I had a chance to consult with you. Would adjusting the aerator alone have been enough to _raise_ the pH overnight from 6 (could've been lower - 6 is the low end of my API test kit) to the 6.4 I was reading this morning?

As for the ammonia, the tank is a 44g corner. I have ~12 plants in it, ranging from 2 giant hairgrass to 2 cryptocoryne to 2 pennywort and 4 (IIRC) Amazon Swords. For fish, I have 8 Zebra Danios, 6 Flame Tetras, (down to) 2 Corys, a Betta, a very small RTS, a couple of Ghost Shrimp, and a Mystery Snail (stocking is at ~80% based on the AqAdvisor.com calculator). Except for losing a few Corys over the last couple of weeks, the stocking hasn't changed (I'd like to see the ammonia gone before the adding anything new). A couple of very small Ghost Shrimp are unaccounted for, but the bodies of the Corys that have passed on have all been removed from the tank relatively quickly (I've been taking inventory in the morning and when I get home from work). The fish that are still in the tank have been there since week 1 and seem to be doing just fine, incl. the 2 Cory that are left, which seem to be perking up a bit. They're all active and have good coloring and clear eyes, and seem to be eating well. They get fed once a day with a combo of flakes and slow-sinking pellets, with a little dried shrimp once or twice a week thrown in. I think I'm being careful to not overfeed (just enough that they can eat within a few minutes). The plants seem to be doing OK as well, though the color on the leaves of the 2 Cryptocoryn Undulatas seem to be a bit washed out. I'm using 2x18W lights - 1 Sun-glo and one marked full-daylight that came w/ one of the fixtures (Marineland brand, maybe?). Besides the StressCoat+ I've been using as water conditioner, the only other thing to have gone in the water over the last 2 weeks is a capful of Flourish Comp, once last Sunday, and once yesterday morning, and a dose of AmmoLock once or twice when ammonia started as previously mentioned.

Granted, I did get a little excited and maybe stocked up a bit too much a bit too early, but I thought (based on your previous posts about a planted tank being 'cycled' from the get go) that having the plants would allow a bit of leeway there.

Let me know what you think...


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Thanks Lee for the info. The tank is not overstocked, no where near it, and with the plants I would not expect any ammonnia.

It is reasonable that night-time aeration will drive off sufficient CO2 to raise the pH, comparable to plants assimilating CO2 during the day and raising the pH. This can't hurt, if only at night. Monitor this for a week and see what the pH does, without water changes.

The source of the ammonia I do not fathom. I would expect it in the tap water, but you have tested that and it is zero. I'm not going to guess at anything; in my tanks that are I think fairly well stocked with fish, I have no issues with ammonia or nitrite, and I can't imagine where yours is coming from. As long as it is only ammonia and no nitrite, and you are using the ammonia detoxifing conditioner, the fish will be OK. But that doesn't explain where it is coming from.

Byron.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

No, thank YOU, Byron, for being my voice of reason!

The aerator has been on a timer since you told me a couple of weeks ago not to run it during the day. It goes off in the morning about 1 hr. before the lights come on at ~11am, stays off most of the day, but then comes on in the evening ~6pm, and then lights off at 11pm. I usually do my water tests in the evening, not long after the aerator turns back on.

Yeah, I'm trying to figure out the ammonia rise as well... I would think that as long as I'm not overstocked, or over-feeding, or have any rotting carcases in the tank, that the plants would use any ammonia that's currently in the water and ammonia would _decrease_. Oh, and just to re-iterate one of my long-winded previous posts - the StressCoat+ _does_ seem to _remove_ ammonia, not just detox it, so, since I started using it instead of the Tap Water Conditioner, between the water changes and the plants, I can't see how ammonia is still on the rise...


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Well, last night Ammonia seemed to be back up to a solid 2ppm (pH was ~6.5). If it's over 2ppm when I get home tonight, I'm thinking I need to do another water change....


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LMychajluk said:


> Well, last night Ammonia seemed to be back up to a solid 2ppm (pH was ~6.5). If it's over 2ppm when I get home tonight, I'm thinking I need to do another water change....


No on the water change. With an acidic pH (below 7) ammonia changes to ammonium which is not toxic to fish. Ammonia detoxifiers (most of them, like Prime, etc) also detoxify ammonia by changing it to the basically harmless ammonium. And ammonia test kits (most) read ammonia and ammonium as ammonia. So this is not an issue, and I would suggest leaving the tank for a week to settle, monitoring the pH daily to see what it is really doing (always test the same time every day as I think I explained before). pH of 6.5 is good, even at 6 for what you have.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Well, last night when I got home, pH was up a bit (~6.8), and ammonia seemed to be holding steady at 2ppm (maybe a touch higher). I really wanted to do the water change, but talked myself out of it. I'll try and hold off on the WC until the weekend. I'll keep the AmmoLock handy if the pH breaks 7 for some reason...

Does the Ammonia need to get to a certain level before bacteria starts growing? I know that the plants should be using the ammonia, but I would think that any excess ammonia (or ammonium?) would still provide an environment for bacteria to 'pick up the slack', if you will.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LMychajluk said:


> Well, last night when I got home, pH was up a bit (~6.8), and ammonia seemed to be holding steady at 2ppm (maybe a touch higher). I really wanted to do the water change, but talked myself out of it. I'll try and hold off on the WC until the weekend. I'll keep the AmmoLock handy if the pH breaks 7 for some reason...
> 
> Does the Ammonia need to get to a certain level before bacteria starts growing? I know that the plants should be using the ammonia, but I would think that any excess ammonia (or ammonium?) would still provide an environment for bacteria to 'pick up the slack', if you will.


Nitrosomonas bacteria will appear if there is ammonia/ammonium available for them, and they will multiply in proportion to the ammonia/ammonium. If the ammonia/ammonium decreases, the N bacteria will die off proportionally. N bacteria always exist at the level required to make use of the *available* ammonia/ammonium, although if it increases drastically it takes them time to multiply accordingly.

In a planted tank the plants are also after the ammonia/ammonium, and they are quicker than the bacteria. This is why in a well-planted tank the level of N bacteria is always less than without plants (and the fish load being the same).

If the pH rises above 7 I would still not do a pwc. The plants have to use it, and the bacteria too. This won't change with pH, since the ammonia or ammonium is still there at whatever level it is, regardless of which form it takes. And I still recommend that the tank needs time to biologically settle down. I would thus also not start dumping chemicals in, like Ammolock or whatever. Observe the fish; unless they appear stressed there is no issue.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

It's been a nervous couple of days, but the fish seem OK. Even the last couple of Corys have been pretty active the last few days.

Stats:
pH has been fluctuated all week between 6.4 and 6.8, now at 6.4 tonight
Ammonia has been climbing steadily all week, now at a solid 4ppm
No NO2/NO3 (well, NO3 _might_ be a hair above 0, but not yet 5ppm on the scale)
kH has been dropping from ~3 early this week, down to 1
gH is steady at ~10

Planning on doing a WC and vac tomorrow (1 week from the last change). I'll shoot for ~40% of the water, but I'm still trying to work out the water level vs. gallons when using the vac, so I might be off a bit. I'm also going to test the water w/ the conditioner added before putting it in the tank to make sure there's no ammonia in it, and I'll double-check the pH as well. Anything else I should consider or look for at this point?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LMychajluk said:


> It's been a nervous couple of days, but the fish seem OK. Even the last couple of Corys have been pretty active the last few days.
> 
> Stats:
> pH has been fluctuated all week between 6.4 and 6.8, now at 6.4 tonight
> ...


I just eyeball the water in the tank when I change it; in your case, drain it down to where it seems 1/3 gone.

Some interesting numbers, interesting from the aspect of fluctuating, not the numbers themselves. I do believe this is the right tact, no fiddling for the week, a normal 1/3 pwc once a week, let the tank stabilize. Keep us posted.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

I'll post the actual numbers from my log over the last 2 weeks, in case it helps clear anything up. Most of the time, I test around 7pm, unless noted below...

2/14/2010	6.8
2/15/2010	6.6
2/16/2010	6.6
2/17/2010	6.6
2/18/2010	6.4 - Test just prior to 20% WC
2/19/2010	6.8 
2/20/2010	7.4 - Test immediately following 35% WC
2/21/2010	6.0 - Late test (~11pm)
2/22/2010	6.6
2/23/2010	6.8
2/24/2010	6.6
2/25/2010	6.6
2/26/2010	6.4

If there's any more info I can provide, let me know and I'll do my best... I'm still confused about the result on 2/21, but I did the test 2x that night because I didn't believe the results the first time.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Hmmm... lights just came on, and the water is looking cloudy. Bacteria bloom, maybe? Ammonia still around 4, no NO2/NO3 being detected yet... Should I maybe put off the WC until tomorrow and see where this goes?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I would stick to the plan; nothing except pwc once a week. I still believe the tank simply has to settle. Re the cloudy water, if the fish are not showing signs of discomfort, I would stick to the plan. 

The pH numbers are not a problem; the one jump to 7.4 is the only thing that stands out, but as the tank matures I suspect the increase with a pwc will lessen.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Ok, sticking to the plan... did ~35% water change a couple of hours ago. (Agian, I was shooting for a bit more, but didn't quite make it...)

Water is still cloudy, maybe even worse than it was, but the fish don't seem to care... (BTW, I tried to take the pics you asked for in the other thread, but the water is so cloudy it's not worth posting the pics...Ill try again in the morning if it clears up a bit.)

Post-WC #'s:
pH - 7.4
Ammonia - 1ppm
NO2/NO3 - both 0
kH - 3
gH - 11

I was testing each bucket before it went back in the tank for ammonia. I had to use _alot_ of ths StessCoat+ that I was conditioning the water with to get rid of the ammonia (~3 capfulls / 30ml per 3 gallon bucket), but every bucket tested 0 before going in the tank. My bottle of StressCoat is almost empty, so maybe I'll try Prime for my next WC...


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Hmm... some good/bad this morning. The water is still very cloudy. Can't see the back of the tank cloudy...

The 3 Flame Tetras I can see swimming around are white and appear to be gasping. There's one laying dead on the gravel that I can see, along with one of the Ghost Shrimp (whose body turned blue?). I'll get them out in a minute... there are at least 2 Tetras unaccounted for, and I'll need to take a better head-count of the rest of the guys (if I can see anything....).

The Zebras, Cories, and the Betta seem OK...so far. At least the ones I can see.

On the plus side, I'm seeing Nitrite at .5ppm, and Nitrate at 5ppm this morning, so it seems like my bio-filter finally kicked in. Ammonia is back up around 4ppm, though, but pH has dropped to 6.6.

In my quick Google search, I saw that a bacteria bloom can use available O2 in the water, so I've cranked up the aerator a bit to try and make sure there's enough O2 for the fish. The 3 Tetras I can see look like they may be getting some of thier color back since I did this a few minutes ago...


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LMychajluk said:


> Hmm... some good/bad this morning. The water is still very cloudy. Can't see the back of the tank cloudy...
> 
> The 3 Flame Tetras I can see swimming around are white and appear to be gasping. There's one laying dead on the gravel that I can see, along with one of the Ghost Shrimp (whose body turned blue?). I'll get them out in a minute... there are at least 2 Tetras unaccounted for, and I'll need to take a better head-count of the rest of the guys (if I can see anything....).
> 
> ...


Your description of the tetras suggests nitrite or pH problems. If nitrite, using Prime (which detoxifies nitrite) should help. A pwc would also help, using Prime, but then we haveanother pH fluctuation to manage. The pH for this species is acidic to slightly basic up to 7.8 so I wouldn't suspect the high or low pH if stable to be the issue, but the fluctuation. I certainly agree on the aerator under these conditions.

By the way, I think I saw something earlier about excessive use of the ammonia detox stuff. I would be careful, these are chemicals and should not be overdosed. This could also be an issue for the tetra, they are highly sensitive to chemical substances of any sort. With any of these products including water conditioners, only use the recommended dose, notwithstanding their claim that it can't be overdosed; it can.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

The Tetras seem to be doing much better now, and got alot of thier color back. I can't see enough in the tank to find that dead tetra (it floated off while I was scooping up the shrimp). Hopefully the tank will clear up a bit later so I can recover it. The remaining 5 are all still alive, so I only lost the one. Between turning up the aerator and the lights coming on at ~11am (just prior to my last post), I think there's more O2 for the fish. I've even turned the aerator back down, because I didn't want to cause a pH jump by forcing too much of the CO2 out of the water, but I'm going to leave it on until the water clears (usually, it shuts off during most of the day).

Since you mentioned Nitrite problems, I should note that there seems to be what could be brown algae on the roots of the bannana plants that I didn't notice before. Doesn't elevated Nitrite lead to algae growth? I don't see this anywhere else in the tank, but like I said, it's kind of hard to see right now...

Yes, I did mention 'overdosing' on the StressCoat to get the ammonia out of the tap water. So, if I'm understanding you, I should stick to the recommended dosages of conditioner, even if that means addiing water that still has ammonia? Now that I'm starting to see NO2 and know that I have bacteria that can process that ammonia in the tank, I'm not so worried about doing that. I'm going to pick up some Prime this afternoon, though, in case I need to do a WC when I get home later this evening.

I'm going to leave it for awhile and see what happens. I'll test everything again later this evening, and maybe plan on a WC if anything is looking dangerously high...


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LMychajluk said:


> The Tetras seem to be doing much better now, and got alot of thier color back. I can't see enough in the tank to find that dead tetra (it floated off while I was scooping up the shrimp). Hopefully the tank will clear up a bit later so I can recover it. The remaining 5 are all still alive, so I only lost the one. Between turning up the aerator and the lights coming on at ~11am (just prior to my last post), I think there's more O2 for the fish. I've even turned the aerator back down, because I didn't want to cause a pH jump by forcing too much of the CO2 out of the water, but I'm going to leave it on until the water clears (usually, it shuts off during most of the day).
> 
> Since you mentioned Nitrite problems, I should note that there seems to be what could be brown algae on the roots of the bannana plants that I didn't notice before. Doesn't elevated Nitrite lead to algae growth? I don't see this anywhere else in the tank, but like I said, it's kind of hard to see right now...
> 
> ...


Sounds good. Nitrite doesn't cause algae, you were probably thinking opf nitrate, but that is only partially true. Light in excess of what the plants need to balance the nutrients is what causes algae to get excess (normal algae is natural). However, brown algae almost always occurs in new tanks during the first 2-3 months. Don't worry about it, you can use your fingers to remove it from plant leaves, and scrape it off the glass. it will dissipate as the tank settles and matures.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Well, got home about an hour ago, and the cloudiness wasn't any better. The Tetras were looking real pale again, and I probably won't have time to do maintenance again until tomorrow night, so I decided to do a WC.

The before #'s:
pH 6.4
Ammonia 4+
Nitrite ~1ppm
Nitrate ~10ppm

I picked up some Prime today and used it instead of the StressCoat as a conditioner. Interestingly, the front label says "_Removes Chlorine, Chloromine, and Ammonia_", but the fine print description says "_Prime removes Chlorine, Chloromine, and Ammonia. Prime converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank's biofilter._" I take it it's converting the ammonia to ammonium, but is that the same as 'removing' ammonia? <Rhetorical question> The treated tap water still tested positive for ammonia at ~.5ppm. But, since Prime is 2 drops / gal vs. the .5-1ml of StressCoat per gallon, it seems more economical...

After the WC, I was at least able to see enough to recover the dead Tetra. Everyone else still seems to be acting 'normal', even though I still can't see well enough to get an accurate headcount.

The #'s after ~35% WC (circulating for ~1/2hr):
ph 6.8 (was expecting a bit higher...)
Ammonia 4ppm (was expecting lower...)
Nitrite .25ppm
Nitrate 5ppm

Going to leave the aerator turned up 24/7 until this clears up. The Corys and Betta can at least gulp air, but the other residents (inmates?) don't have that luxury...

Today actually marks the end of the 4th week since I added fish to the tank and (in theory) started my cycle. Since I've read that bacteria development usually takes from 4-6 weeks, I think I'm right on schedule. But, I didn't realize keeping fish would be so stressful....


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## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

It's not so stressful once the tank's established, I promise!

I have experienced fish dying from (presumably) lack of O2 in established tanks with sudden bacterial blooms. I think aeration is key, though water changes would also certainly help (but then again I'm sort of wandering into the middle of the conversation here so I'm not sure what that means for your tank specifically since there might be reasons for you not to aerate or do water changes).


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Thanks, batman...

I have an aerator in the tank that's part of an ornament, so I like to run it for aesthetic purposes, but Byron (whose been guiding me along...) told me that it could force too much of the CO2 that the plants use out of the water, so I put it on a timer to only run in the evenings and overnight, and I usually keep it very low. But now I cranked it up and am running it 24/7 to make sure the fish have enough O2.

I did my scheduled WC on Saturday, and the one last night was kind of an 'emergency' one. The ammonia seemed pretty high (4+) after the WC last night, but Byron said that I shouldn't worry about it too much as long as the pH stays below 7, but now I'm also going to be watching the Nitrites closely... I'll check the ammonia and Nitrites/Nitrates when I get home tonight and plan on another WC if needed.

This morning, the water was still really cloudy, but the fish I saw were still active, and the Flame Tetras were still showing color (at one point, they were all pale white). Hopefully they'll be OK when I get home.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Just got home... Was almost afraid of what I might find.

It wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. Water is still cloudy as all heck - can't see anything. But, the fish I can still see seem active and normal, and even the Flame Tetras don't seem to be too stressed (except for one, that I now think is permanently white).

#'s:
pH - 6.6
Ammonia - 8ppm (maybe higher...8 is the highest the kit will test)
Nitrite - .25ppm
Nitrate - 5ppm

Ammonia is getting high, but I'm wondering if I should hold off on the WC? Would there be a downside to doing the WC at this point?

I'm also thinking of opening the filter and changing out the water polishing pads (not the primary foam), which I realized today are supposed to be changed every week or two. I want to make sure the flow isn't being impeded by clogged pads (they've been in for 2-3 weeks...). I also still have a couple of Ammonia-removing pillows that I could add to the filter if you guys think the ammonia is rising too quickly. I can also add a small bubble filter with some Ammonia-remover in the bubble filter?

Also, any thoughts about leaving the lights on overnight? Would it help the bacteria develop any faster, or maybe allow the plants to process some additional ammonia?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LMychajluk said:


> Just got home... Was almost afraid of what I might find.
> 
> It wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. Water is still cloudy as all heck - can't see anything. But, the fish I can still see seem active and normal, and even the Flame Tetras don't seem to be too stressed (except for one, that I now think is permanently white).
> 
> ...


No on the lights at night; fish need darkness to rest, same as we do, and plants do. I know of aquarists who left lights on 24 hours and in a couple days ich broke out big time. You don't need that on top of everything else.

I'm getting a bit out of my depth with this; I am not a chemist, and I just do not understand the ammonia level. With plants and a not unreasonable fish load, this should not be occurring, and we have established it is not from the tap water.

On the filter pads, rinse them, don't change them. Filter media like plain pads should only be rinsed until they literally fall apart and water gets around them rather than going through them, then replace it. If those ammonia pads only change ammonia to ammonium, fine. That is natural and does not amount to adding chemicals into this soup. The cloudiness is not a problem unless it is related to the ammonia, and again I am out of ideas on that. I will PM a couple members.

Byron.


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## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, plants can't use any nutrients (ammonia included) if they can't photosynthesize, and the bacterial bloom may be preventing them from doing exactly that since your water is so cloudy. 

Leaving the lights on might be a good idea, since it will allow the plants more time to photosynthesize and as a result you might get more O2 in the water. I am concerned about those high ammonia levels. Since your water is acidic you don't need to worry about the ammonia itself being dangerous but if your cycle jumps to the next level, you could see all of that concentrated ammonia start turning into nitrite, which would be quite toxic even in acidic water.

More dangerous, though, are probably the reduced O2 levels as a result of all of those bacteria which are feeding off of the ammonia. I know it's not ideal for your plants, but I think stepping up aeration and doing some serious water changes will help combat the problem until your ammonia levels start to go down naturally. I would prefer water changes to using ammonia-removers for two reasons: 1) ammonia removers won't really be doing anything in your tank as all they do in the first place is convert ammonia to ammonium (which you've already got in your acidic water) and 2) water changes have the added benefit of removing bacteria from the bloom and adding O2 to your water, which is crucial during a bacteria bloom.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Well, I disconnected the filter earlier and cleaned it a bit. I rinsed the sponges in the aquarium water, and did end up replacing the polishing pads. The old ones were kind of disgusting. I tried to rinse them, but they just felt 'heavy', and I didn't get the impression alot of water was flowing through them. Fluval says they're not for continuous use, anyway... While I had it open, I did also add the ammonia remover (ion exchange media) to the empty baskets - figured it can't really hurt at this point, but I think the 2 pillows will only treat 30 gallons total anyway. I think that replacing the polishing pads was a good idea, though, because I think I see a noticable increase in flow from the filter output.

I let it run for an hour or so and re-tested the ammonia. The test tube was so dark green (API Test kit) I couldn't see through it, so I decided I had to do a water change. I changed out 35% of the water, treating w/ Prime. The WC really stressed out one of the Corys. I thought he was dead at one point, laying on his side, but when I went to recover the carcass, he moved. Right now, he's still alive and hanging out in a big plastic cup with fresh water that I floated in the main tank to keep the temp, but I don't think he's going to make it...

Now, after the WC, the water is looking a bit clearer (could be temporary), but pH is now up around 7.4 and Ammonia is still at 4ppm. The lights just went out (going to leave them on the timer for now), so hopefully the higher CO2 levels during the night will bring the pH down a bit.

I'm still kind of baffled where all this ammonia is coming from. It seems to be an aweful lot. There wasn't any significant 'gunk' in the filter that could've been rotting bio-matter. I've got <20 small fish in the 44g tank that I've barely fed in the last few days, and I think I've accounted for them all (no MIAs decomposing in a back corner somewhere). The dozen or so plants are doing well as far as I can tell (sprouting new leaves, roots / shoots, etc...). The only thing is the 2 crypts I have do have some 'melt' on thier leaves, but I vac'd them on Saturday as best I could. They're also showing signs of sprouting new leaves. Should I be trimming these leaves w/ the 'melt' off completely and removing them?


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Lee, I have been asked to give this thread a read and I just spent over 1 hour on it. I think I have a good grasp on the details of this. Bryon and I are discussing this in private. Conversations of pH and hardness are very complicated and sometimes dangerous when the casual reader is skimming the page. He and I will discuss this further today and get back to you. We need a large brainstorming session, and this really needs to occur outside of this thread. I appoligize to anyone who does not appreciate this, but I will just ask you to trust Byron, Jim, and myself when I say this needs to be discussed offline. If anyone has any input, post it here in this thread. It is very much appreciated.

Jim, the discussion is in the moderator forum. Please join us. 

Lee, please don't do anything to the tank today. No water changes PLEASE. Things need to sit tight so we can actually understand what is causing your problems. Test results would be nice, but please do not take any action as a result of the results. I would also like to see pictures of your tank and equipment, regardless of how cloudy the water is.

This situation can be fixed. Just sit tight and let us help. Trust me. ;-)


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Wow... I really appreciate the time you guys all spent, but I really didn't think it was that unusual of a situation. I started this thread as a sort of dairy for my tank setup, and Byron has been providing some great guidance, but I didn't really expect a "SWAT Team" response to what I _think_ is just a (normal?) bacteria bloom (though I have to admit, the rapid ammonia rise doesn't seem right to me...). From what I can gather, it's not unusual for bacteria bloom to last 3-5 days (today would be day 4). I do appreciate your efforts, but please, don't make my problem your priority. I don't want any of you to be wasting your time on me.

My water alkalinity and hardness seem more or less stable for the most part (kH 2-3, gH 9-10), and I think pH is OK (now that Byron talked me out of trying to adjust it). pH seems to want to stablize around 6.4-6.6, but when I do a water change (usually around 35%), it jumps to the mid-7s for a bit (which makes sense to me...low kH and high tap water pH). BTW, I haven't added anything to try and adjust these values for ~3 weeks, but did use a little ph-Down early on before Byron stopped me.

I'm at work now, but will try to post some more pics of the setup later tonight, but it's a 45g pentagon corner w/ a Fluval 305 canister filter (sponge, pre-filter media, ammonia remover, bio media, and water polishing pads, in that order). I'm using 2x15W (18") T8 bulbs, temp is set ~78, and the only other 'equipment' is a Hydor volcano ornament that I also use as an aerator (which is usually turned down very low, and off during most of the day, but is now on 24/7 to prevent O2 from dropping). I'm using API's test kits. All of the equipment was purchased new and set up the last weekend of Jan.

If there's any additional info I can provide before getting back to the tank, let me know. I'll post test result numbers when I get home and hold off on any additional water changes for the time being.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Lee, don't think twice about our time helping you. I know I speak for all the moderators when I say that this is why we are here, to offer advice from our collective experience which is very considerable. Mark and Jim have a lot of experience and knowledge, more than I do in this area, and this will get resolved. Just sit tight, no tinkering with the tank, and we'll be back. B.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Okay, just got home and snapped a few shots that I uploaded to my album. The one clear pic was taken last Wed or Thu (the cloudiness started Sat morning, but wasn't too bad, and got really bad by Sunday).

It's actually not as cloudy as it was. I can actually make out the deco at the back of the tank. At very least, it's not any worse than it was after last night's water change. Could it possibly be clearing up? The fish still seem active, and the Tetras still have thier color.

Here are the numbers:
pH - 7.5
Ammonia - 8ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm
Nitrate - Between 0 and 5ppm
kH - 3
gH - 10

(BTW, I re-read the directions, and took the pH and Ammonia tests 2x, just to make sure.)

The ammonia is still high. The only thing I can think that could possibly be causing this is some of the 'melting' leaves on the 2 Crypts (I got some closeups in the album). I can trim them if you guys think it will help. There could possibly be a dead zebra or two in there, but it's hard to tell... As you can see, the other plants seem well, and the bannana plants and swords are putting out new roots, shoots, and leaves.

BTW, I re-tested the tap water. Straight from the tap, I have a pH of 7.8 and an ammonia level of .5ppm.

If there's any other info or pics I can provide, please let me know. 

Thanks for your time and efforts!


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

LMychajluk said:


> The ammonia is still high. The only thing I can think that could possibly be causing this is some of the 'melting' leaves on the 2 Crypts (I got some closeups in the album). I can trim them if you guys think it will help.


This isn't the problem. Everything is pH related. Sit tight and NO TINKERING!


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Jim, this may take another day for our thoughts to come together. We have 5 people working on this, believe it or not. Your situation became extremely complicated in post #68. Your problems are due to the pH fluctuations, which effects the ammonia/ammonium ratios. Additionally, your bacteria are not doing what they should do, and your plants are not photosynthesizing properly. 

We know exactly what is wrong. The approach to fix the situation is up for debate. We are ironing our the details. You have some of the most experienced hobbyists I have ever known brainstorming on this, so just sit tight. Besides, in this hobby, nothing bad ever happens from being patient.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Wow... I must've screwed things up pretty royally to stop plants from photosynthesizing! To me, that sounds like it's right up there with the sun not coming up...


I didn't touch anything last night, but I did feed the fish a tiny bit (just a couple of flakes and a few sinking pellets). When the water was _really_ cloudy I didn't see the point, figuring the fish couldn't see the food, so they haven't eaten in a couple of days. But, like I said, since the last water change Monday night it's been a little clearer, and if I had to guess, it seems to be clearing up slowly. If anything, it doesn't seem to be getting any worse in the last 48 hours.

That one Cory that didn't handle the WC on Monday is gone, but the rest of the fish still seem to be doing OK as far as I can tell. I just hope the high ammonia levels don't cause them any permanent damage...


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Can we get more test results tonight? I want to see these results every day. The reason your fish aren't stressed at the high ammonia level is because your pH is settling in at an acidic value, which means that most ammonia is present in the form of ammonium, which is not toxic. As Byron mentioned, no worries on the ammonia. Let your eyes be your test kit for the health of your fish. But we do need to get things to settle out properly, so lets keep on this every day.

We are having one heck of a conversation about your tank by the way. If we posted it here we would spend so much time giving background information that it would interfere with the discussion. (Kind of like reading Calculus text book.) I think we have a game plan, but still want feedback from 2 sources.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Well, I'm glad I at least created a stimulating topic of conversation for you guys!:lol:

Just to be clear, you did see that my pH was testing at 7.4/7.5 since the water change Monday, right? >7 is basic, not acidic, correct? (Though I think that it will eventually drop a bit once I turn the aerator back down to 'normal' and a little more CO2 builds up...).


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Well, there doesn't seem to be much change from yesterday...

Water is still cloudy, not as bad as it was at its worst, but not any better than yesterday. Numbers are almost identical:
pH - 7.5
Ammonia - ~8ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm
Nitrate - 0 (or maybe a hair over)

I'm surprised that the pH hasn't come down a bit, and Ammonia is still high (IMO), but at least it doesn't seem to be increasing. I don't know what happened to my Nitrite/Nitrate #'s. I was testing positive for Nitrites and Nitrates as of Sunday and Monday, so I thought I was on my way. Did I kill off _all_ the bacteria by cleaning the filter on Monday? I was careful not to use any tap water when cleaning. I really only changed the polishing pads and added the ammonia remover. I kept the main sponges, pre-filter media and Bio-Max noodles and didn't let any of it dry out, so I thought I'd be OK...


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

I realize you appear to be getting a temporary pH spike after the water change. I'm just not trusting the test kits at the moment. If these readings were accurate, every fish would be floating right now. You can't have a pH of 7.4 and ammonia of 8.0ppm with fish living. So the only conclusion is to ignore the test results at the moment.

The one thing I must continue to stress is that you should not do anything right now. No water changes. No chemical additives. Just let the tank run its course. Continue testing and posting test results so that we can see when things start to get normal.

Hopefully by this weekend we can give you some sort of game plan. I can tell you is what you will no longer be using. Stress Coat & pH down should no longer be used. It appears that the use of these 2 products together has been causing issues. For example, Stress Coat has a pH value >9.0. At the same time it is bonding ammonia into ammonium, which is a very temporary bond only intended to be effective on established systems that are effectively removing ammonium via biological filtration or naturally utilized by live plants. Your tank is a great example of what happens when this process does not work as planned. Because of this, we will be recommending a different process of conditioning your tap water.

I am also curious, have you tried testing your water with different test kits? It would be worth while to take a sample to the LFS to have it tested with a different brand test kit. Whatever you do, please do not pay any attention to the advice they give you after reading the test results. They lack the background and tank history necessary to make any recommendations or to even understand how or why these results are what they are. Just get a 2nd test result to confirm the results you are getting.

Continue to sit tight. If you loose any more livestock be sure to let us know. Is the tank clearing up any?


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

As of this morning, via a quick glance at the tank (with the lights off) as I was heading out the door, it didn't seem to be clearing up any. Most of the fish seem fine, but a couple of the Corys were having problems. The one I thought I lost yesterday was laying on his side in a bucket I put him in and I thought was dead, but when I went to move the bucket, he started flopping around. He's still holding on, but still laying on his side. I put another Cory that seemed to be twitching oddly in the bucket with him and put a few drops of Melafix in with them.

Interesting re: the Stress Coat... I didn't even think that it would affect the pH, and I only used the pH down during the first week, so I was thinking it was the tap water raising my pH. Initially, I was using the API Tap Water Conditioner, but then switched to using the StressCoat when we realized that there was some ammonia in my tap water (the StessCoat claims to remove ammonia, while the Tap Water Conditioner doesn't mention anything about it - see post #68). Then, I guess I od'd a bit on the StressCoat because I thought I _had_ to get that ammonia out of the tap water before putting it in the tank, so I kept adding it to the buckets of tap water until ammonia tested 0 (post #68). For the last 2 WC (Sun & Mon), I picked up some Prime to treat the water with and used that instead of the StressCoat. I haven't put anything but the treated tap water directly in the tank for at least a week and a half...

I'll take a ride to the LFS tonight and see if I can have them test the water, and/or pick up a different brand of test kit. Do I need a whole master kit, or would just the pH and Ammonia tests suffice? Can I 'cheap out' and just get a pack of multi-strips? I know they're not as accurate, but if my liquid test kit is correct, they should be close, right?

I really appreciate the help!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Ask the store to test pH, ammonia and hardness, and make sure they give you the numbers, not "it's good" or "it's a bit high" stuff which tells you and us nothing. And to reiterate Mark's advice, do not be led into doing anything by their suggestions; just get the test results.

The API test kits are deemed reliable. The combo kit has ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH if you can afford that and don't already have these. Or individually a pH and ammonia kit will suffice. It is useful to have a nitrate kit though, so long-term the combo will likely be the better deal as it will probably be less expensive that purchasing just the individual three. Check the expiry date on the package or maybe it is on the bottles; sometimes test kits can sit on the shelf for years.

Byron.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

That's what I already have - the API Master Kit + the API Hardness test kit. I was asking if I should buy a whole 'backup' kit from another brand for $40, or if I could get away with just a couple of the tests (or even a handful of mutli-test strips) to use as a sanity check when the results from my 'primary' kit seem odd. I'll have the LFS test either way.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LMychajluk said:


> That's what I already have - the API Master Kit + the API Hardness test kit. I was asking if I should buy a whole 'backup' kit from another brand for $40, or if I could get away with just a couple of the tests (or even a handful of mutli-test strips) to use as a sanity check when the results from my 'primary' kit seem odd. I'll have the LFS test either way.


When I contacted API about shelf life, they said 2-3 years was about it. If you've had yours that long, or the time from the dates on the bottles is beyond this, a new kit would be wise. If your kit is still within the time, then maybe wait to see if the store results differ that much; they may not. B.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Ok Lee, here we go. After much discussion we all have our theories as to why your tank is in this situation,and each of them has merits. The nice thing is that each of our theories has a common solution. So, rather than focusing on the past and the boring explanations of how we arrived at where we are today, lets focus on a solution.

For starters, lets change water. LOTS of water. You need to get the ammonia levels down to a reasonable level so that the bacteria bloom goes away, allowing the plants to do what they do, and allowing the nitrifying bacteria to grow. The suggestion is a 40% water change on 3 consecutive days. When you do these water changes use Prime as your only water conditioner. Dose by the recommended dose on the bottle. Do not overdose and do not use anything to adjust pH. We understand there will be a temporary pH fluctuation. Don't worry, it will settle out over time. 

After the 3rd water change we are suggesting that you stop and let the tank run. Test the water every 3rd day and post the test results for us. We do not expect an immediate result and fully expect the tank to take a couple weeks to stabilize. During this 2 week period do not do more water changes and do not add any chemicals to the tank. Just let things ride. You need to allow time for the plants and bacteria to settle into the tank.

You may want to very carefully watch your feeding levels. Any excess food at all during this time is a bad thing. I would even consider only feeding every other day, or very light feedings. 

We also need to discuss the ammonia pillow. You should leave it in place for now, as long as the ammonia is high. As soon as the ammonia settles down we want you to remove it so that the plants can benefit.

Another thought is the benefits of activated carbon. If you have carbon on hand, go ahead and use it now. This will help to keep the tank stable during the cycle process. Long term, don't use carbon, because it remove nutrients the plants crave.

Please do not by any means assume that I am providing this solution. This was a massive team effort and we had a lot to discuss. I am just giving you the summary of our thoughts. Your tank is a live plant tank, so I will move out of the way now and turn this back over to Byron. 

Good luck and keep us posted on those test results!


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Well, I bought the kit about the same time I set up the tank back at the end of January. There's no expiration date on the bottles, but there's a Lot# - 83A1009. Manufactured 10/09, maybe?

I went to the LFS. This was an actual fish store, not PetCo/PetSmart/etc... Only fish, and they've been there 35 yrs. The guy at the counter tested my pH and Ammonia and got 7.2 and 8+ using his own API kit. He _sounded_ like he knew what he was talking about (i.e., he knew off the top of his head what parameters the fish in my tank like). He was also wondering the same thing I am... how are the fish still alive? (Zombie fish, maybe?) Since his results were pretty close to what I was getting, I didn't buy another test kit. 

I'm testing about the same now that I'm home, pH 7.4, Ammonia 8+, no Nitrites, and Nitrates maybe a hair above 0. Doesn't seem to have moved much all week. If I had to guess, it looks like it may be a little cloudier than last night. Fish are still active, tetras have color, and the plants seem to be doing real well, with good color in the leaves, and even the melted Crypts seem to be putting out new leaves.

The LFS guy said it may take another week or two (or more) to clear up on its own, and that the cloudiness won't clear up until the ammonia levels go down. He recommended a course of action of a 50% water change and 3-4 capfulls of StressZyme, Cycle, or similar bottled bacteria per day, saying they use it all the time (he didn't seem to really be 'pushing' his products, though). I'm not using it....just saying what he said, but I'm still getting real worried about the ammonia levels... Maybe the bottled bacteria might not be such a bad idea? Maybe it'll process some of the ammonia and kick-start the cycle, which seems to me to be stuck in a rut?


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

LMychajluk said:


> The LFS guy said it may take another week or two (or more) to clear up on its own, and that the cloudiness won't clear up until the ammonia levels go down. He recommended a course of action of a 50% water change and 3-4 capfulls of StressZyme, Cycle, or similar bottled bacteria per day, saying they use it all the time (he didn't seem to really be 'pushing' his products, though). I'm not using it....just saying what he said, but I'm still getting real worried about the ammonia levels... Maybe the bottled bacteria might not be such a bad idea? Maybe it'll process some of the ammonia and kick-start the cycle, which seems to me to be stuck in a rut?


Lee, you name it, we've discussed it at a high level. Bottled bacteria is not practical today. Adding more chemicals to this tank is the exact wrong solution at this point. StressZyme and Cycle contain living bacteria, in addition to other chemicals. These bacteria will die instantly when added to your tank with 8ppm ammonia and then the existing bacterial bloom will increase in duration and intensity. 

The reason your ammonia is not killing your fish is that it is currently bonded in ammonium form. This is a weak bond that is at some point going to break, and then you will have toxic ammonia which kills fish. Doing 3 water changes of 40% in 3 days is designed to reduce the ammonia level by almost 95% without causing great stress to the fish or pH levels in the tank.

You probably had over 100 years of fishkeeping experience involved in the discussion on your tank. Probably longer because i'm pushing 25 years on my own. Roll with us on this one.


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

Just to add my 2 cents- I've been watching and reading about what's being discussed about your tank behind the scenes and I'm impressed with the research and priority that Byron, batman and Pasfur have put into this problem. I could live to be one hundred and fifty and that wouldn't surpass their experience. To now not follow their advice over the LFS seems fool hardy.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Sorry...must've crossed posts...I didn't see your post at 8:36 until after I posted my 8:37 post...

I like the water change idea. Anything that gets the ammonia down at this point sounds good to me. I'm going to start tonight.

I don't know if I have enough room in the baskets to use both the carbon (I have a couple of pillows that I never used) and the ammonia pillows, so I'll leave the ammonia pillows in tonight. If the ammonia is down some by tomorrow night, maybe I'll look to swap them out. I think I may have one or two of the pillows with the mixed carbon/ammo remover as well.

Again, thanks Passfur and Byron for all your help and wisdom. Please pass along my gratitude to the others that were involved as well!


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

LMychajluk said:


> I don't know if I have enough room in the baskets to use both the carbon (I have a couple of pillows that I never used) and the ammonia pillows, so I'll leave the ammonia pillows in tonight. If the ammonia is down some by tomorrow night, maybe I'll look to swap them out. I think I may have one or two of the pillows with the mixed carbon/ammo remover as well.


Agreed. Ammonia is priority 1.


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## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

Sounds like things are on track, especially since the LFS's tests match up with your own.

Keep us posted!


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Can we get an actual alkalinity test done on the display? Not Hardness. Alkalinity. I found something today that might be relevant.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

kH, right? I haven't been testing it as often as pH and Ammonia, maybe twice a week, but it's always been in the neighborhood of 2-3 (maybe a bit higher, ~5-6, when I first set up the tank IIRC), with gH 9-10. I'll confirm the original and current values when I get home tonight.

BTW, I did the WC last night, ~40% (6 x 3g buckets, or 18/45). 2 drops of Prime / gallon in the bucket before going in the tank. The water was much clearer after the change. Ammonia was still testing high, somewhere between 4-8ppm, but not off the chart, and pH was still about 7.4. Will do another 40% tonight.

Now that I could see a bit better, I saw one of my Giant Hairgrass plants in the back of the tank wasn't doing as well as I thought and many of the 'blades' were dead. I cleaned it out a bit (it was doing so well, too...). Tonight, I'm planning a more thorough inspection and clean up of bio-matter, vac'ing the crypts as well. Also, I think the local PetSmart has Hornwort relatively cheap, which I've read is very good at using ammonia - would it help/hurt to add another plant or two into the tank now? BTW, I've been using Flourish Comp, a capfull once a week on Sundays, for the plants, as per Byron's suggestion. Should I continue with the Flourish this weekend, or hold off on the ferts as well for a bit?


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

LMychajluk said:


> k BTW, I've been using Flourish Comp, a capfull once a week on Sundays, for the plants, as per Byron's suggestion. Should I continue with the Flourish this weekend, or hold off on the ferts as well for a bit?


I have no idea. This is for Bryon or Jim to answer.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Just got home and checked the kH. It's at 4. pH is ~7.5, and Ammonia seems to be ~4. NO2 & NO3 both are solid a 0 at this point.

kH has been averaging about 2 for the last month or so. I forgot I didn't have the Hardness kit the first week the tank was up, so I can't say what I started with, though... 4 doesn't surprise me, as the couple of 3's that I have in my log are usually the day after water changes, so it seems to go up with a WC, then drop back down to ~2. With the big water change last night, the 4 seems 'normal'.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Ok good. We are still on track. Glad to see the first water change helped. Lets do another 40% tonight!

(If it makes you feel better, I am changing 10 gallons per day for 6 consecutive days on my 180 salt tank. Fun stuff!)


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## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

Are you currently using activated carbon on the tank? If so I wouldn't waste the Flourish as it'll just get sucked up by the carbon. I also think it would be counterproductive to dose it while doing these big water changes. I'd just wait until the tank is in the "settling" stage.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

I haven't added the carbon to the filter yet, so was actually wondering if it would be better to fert the plants or use the carbon for awhile. The plan was to do the water changes on Thu, Fri, and Sat (today), and continue with my weekly fert schedule with the Flourish dose on Sunday.

Also, I was wondering, since I saw some Nitrite and Nitrate last week, does that mean that my bacteria colonies are present in the tank (considering both are now '0')? Or did I do something to totally crash the bio-filter?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I agree on the water change and fert schedule. Plants will be fine. Don't waste the Flourish until after the daily water changes are ended.

No real comment on the other issue, just leave it and wait it out. We agree that all the chemical stuff previously did real damage to the water parameters, biological equilibrium and bacteria. I won't try to guess to what degree. We feel you are doing the best corrective action now, please stick with it and keep us posted. So far everything is looking positive.

Byron.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Well, did the 3rd WC a couple of hours ago. As of a few minutes ago, pH is still holding at 7.4, but ammonia is only down to about 2ppm. The water changes seem to be decreasing the ammonia slowly (and clearing the water with each change), but I don't think the plants or bacteria is processing the ammonia (though most of the plants seem to be doing pretty well). Either that, or the ammonia is still being introduced into the tank faster than it's removed, but I can't figure out from where.... After each WC, I tried to clean out any junk that stirred up with the vac or net, and remove any leaves that seemed to be dead or rotting from the plants. The fish still seem OK.

BTW, this morning, I replaced the 2 Ammonia Remover pillows I added last week to the filter w/ 2 combo Ammonia Remover / Carbon pillows that I had. Out of curiosity, I tested the water for ammonia before the swap, about 2 hours after, and about 8 hours later (before the WC) and didn't see any difference in ammonia levels. Do these things actually remove ammonia, or do they just convert ammonia to ammonium like the AmmoLock stuff?


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## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

Probably the latter. I'm not aware of any "ammonia removing" products that do anything other than convert ammonia to ammonium.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Update: ~48 hrs since the last WC. Ammonia is still at 2, but holding steady. pH seems to be up a bit, though, at 7.8. Is this expected? No Nitrites/Nitrates (well, Nitrates may be ~1ppm). Water is still a bit hazy, fish seem OK. If ammonia creeps up, should I consider another water change? Just a reminder - got the ammonia pillows in the filter, and I'm assuming they'll reach 'saturation' sooner or later. Sitting tight for now....


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LMychajluk said:


> Update: ~48 hrs since the last WC. Ammonia is still at 2, but holding steady. pH seems to be up a bit, though, at 7.8. Is this expected? No Nitrites/Nitrates (well, Nitrates may be ~1ppm). Water is still a bit hazy, fish seem OK. If ammonia creeps up, should I consider another water change? Just a reminder - got the ammonia pillows in the filter, and I'm assuming they'll reach 'saturation' sooner or later. Sitting tight for now....


We (by which I mean the three of us who went into the issues so thoroughly) agreed that a pwc would be the action for ammonia rising; but give us the numbers first in case this changes. And if the plants are growing I still say there should be no issue with ammonia, so no need to rush into this, and no nitrites hsuold appear so that is good esp if nitrates are showing however slight. The aim again is getting this tank settled to a state of biological balance. The slight increase in pH may be due to residue from those products, it can attach to anything solid. Not an issue yet. B.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Ok, thanks, Byron. I'm just worried a bit about the ammonia being present w/ the pH being >7 and possibly climbing. My thinking is whatever is keeping that 2ppm of ammonia from being toxic to the fish (residual chemicals, ammonia remover pillows, etc...) will eventually wear out, and if it happens before the bio-filter is up and running normally and processing any ammonia the plants aren't using to nitrite and on to nitrates, I may be in trouble agian.

BTW, I emailed Fluval/Hagen re: the Ammonia Pillows. They claim that the pillows will actually remove ammonia from the water (not just convert it to ammonium), and that test kits would show this decrease providing there's no additional ammonia being introduced. Not sure of the chemistry, but just thought I'd mention it as an FYI...


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Jim and I have looked at this, and suggest a partial water change might be advisable. I'm assuming the fish are showing no ill effects, like red gills, gasping at the surface, or increased respiration (at non-feeding times)?


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

No, fish seem fine. They're pretty active, colors look good, and they're eating well (though I've cut back feedings to every other day, so I'm guessing they're pretty hungry when I do feed them).

The pH tonight seems to be back down to ~7.5 (kinda weird...looks like 7.4 or less on the High Range test, but over 7.6 on the low-range test). Ammonia is still at ~2 (maybe a bit less than yesterday), Nitrites at 0, and Nitrates maybe a bit over 0.

Think I should go ahead w/ the water change tonight, or maybe wait it out another day, since the pH seems to be back to what it's been averaging for the last week or so? Could that be some kind of indicator to something?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Someone else has noted there is ammonia in your tap water. This thread is so long I can't remember all of it, can you confirm? If there is ammonia in your tap water, what is the reading? B.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Yes, my tap water does test positive for ammonia. Currently, I'm reading 1ppm. I guess that if I was to do a 50% water change at this point, it would only bring the ammonia down to 1.5ppm (from 2ppm), right? Almost doesn't seem worth doing, especially since I'm not showing NO2/NO3.


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Okay, I've been refraining from posting because things haven't really changed much, though I'm starting to see some differences in the last few days.

First off, I did a 35% water change on Saturday. Also, I did a LOT of vac'ing and found that the Hornwort I added a couple of weeks ago wasn't doing as well as I thought and was shedding its leaves everywhere. I cleaned up the Hornwort w/ the vac and since then, the water's been much clearer, but still has a bit of a haze to it. I added the 2 Corys that were in the hospital tank back to the main tank, and they seem to be doing great, and another bunch of Hornwort I picked up at a local aquarium club swap meet. I've only been feeding the fish every 2-3 days, and haven't used any plant ferts since the big water change 2 weeks ago.

pH seems steady, and has been 7.4-7.5 for the last 2 weeks (except one day when it was up to 7.8 for some reason).

Ammonia was holding steady at 2ppm since the big water changes 3 days in a row 2 weeks ago up to this past Saturday. After Saturday's WC, it was down to 1.5ppm the next night, down to .5ppm 2 days ago, but is now back to 1.5ppm.

Nitrite has always been 0, but Nitrate has been 5ppm for the last week and holding pretty steady.

Fish seem happy and healthy. Most of the plants still seem to be doing well. Not sure about the remaining Hornwort, which is currently floating instead of being anchored in the back corner like it was originally.

So, except for the slightly elevated ammonia levels, I think the tank is looking good. I just don't know why I'm still seeing ammonia, and won't add more fish until that's at 0. I'm thinking of doing another partial water change tonight, moreso because I want to vacuum the tank again (still a bunch of needle-leaves from the Hornwort on the gravel I'd like to remove).


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Aside from the Hornwort, are there other live plants that are from what you can tell OK?


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## LMychajluk (Jan 27, 2010)

Yes. Most of the other plants seem 'OK'. I have 4 large swords, 3 banana plants, and a Gold Llaydellia which all seem to be doing great. There's 2 Crypts (Undulata) that melted early on, but seem to be coming back w/ new growth. There's also a Cardinal Plant, a few stems of Moneywort, and what's left of 2 Giant Hairgrass plants that don't seem to be flourishing, but seem to be still alive.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LMychajluk said:


> Yes. Most of the other plants seem 'OK'. I have 4 large swords, 3 banana plants, and a Gold Llaydellia which all seem to be doing great. There's 2 Crypts (Undulata) that melted early on, but seem to be coming back w/ new growth. There's also a Cardinal Plant, a few stems of Moneywort, and what's left of 2 Giant Hairgrass plants that don't seem to be flourishing, but seem to be still alive.


Then I wouldn't be overly concerned with the ammonia, and particularly if the fish are not showing stress (rapid respiration, gasping, lethargy). Hornwort is often a messy plant, when I last had it I got fed up and chucked it. Something wasn't right for it, fell apart continually.


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