# Planning for a 20 gallon



## iamtetsuo (Dec 10, 2009)

So my girlfriend and I are about to move (hooray!) and I am planning on installing a much larger tank. Space is not unlimited though so I'm thinking a 20 gallon should work out best.

Obviously I won't know what the tapwater is like until I move, but I will still have access to the water where we are currently living, which is darn near perfect being minimally processed spring water (chlorine is present due to state mandates but is usually very minimal).

My dilemma is what to do! There are so many choices, and I'm currently like a kid in a candy store 

Things I am set on:
1. Planted. I love the look of natural plants and they allow me to skip the cycling process, so plants are going to be required. But what kind? In my dearly departed betta's tank I have a java fern and as it is still thriving I will probably transfer it to the new tank, but beyond that I have no idea. Maybe some betta bulbs?

2. Schools of smaller fish. I'd prefer to have a bunch of smaller fish rather than one or two larger fish. But at the moment I have no idea what kind of fish to get, everytime I see another kind of fish I go "Oh I want that one!" :-D
I do like a lot of the tetras and platys I'v seen, as well as a number of the catfish I've seen if that helps.

Anyone have some suggestions? I'd prefer fish that don't require constant observation, so aggressive species are out. I work full time so I'm usually only home at night and on the weekends (another reason for the 20 gallon, less maintenance for me).

Also how does everyone handle water changes and maintenance in a larger tank? With my betta it was easy enough to just scoop him out and put him in a cup of water while I did the water changes, but scooping out a school of fish seems like a much more daunting task, not to mention the fact that you can't just put them into a cup of water.

Also this will be my first large tank, any other things I should be aware of?


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## iamtetsuo (Dec 10, 2009)

Oh yes forgot to list the water parameters from where I currently live as this water is way better than any city water

PH 7.5
Lead and copper are both extremely low. (<.005 mg/l) Sodium is 10 mg/l and hardness is 33 mg/l.
Calcium 11ppm
Magnesium 0.95ppm
Potassium 0.83ppm
Chloride 9.9ppm
Sulfate 7.3ppm

Everything else was insignificant or not detected.


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## TwinDad (Mar 3, 2011)

Best thing is check out the fish profiles (tabs on top). I think that is soft water. So you want a soft water fish that be in ph 7.5. Check out flame tetra (von rio) or zebra danios. They are small and would be able to fit many in your tank. I believe both don't mind that type of water.

edit: and a reason to check the profiles. I read the flame and it says ph below 7 is needed.


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## iamtetsuo (Dec 10, 2009)

I was actually considering the Tetra and Danio mix. Probably going to start hitting up my local pet stores to see what they have in stock and go from there.

Anyone have experience buying live plants online? One thing my local stores are lacking is a decent selection of plants (or at least they were last time I shopped for plants)


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## LasColinasCichlids (Jan 4, 2011)

You have a lot more options with soft water verses hard (which means guppies are out though). Bloodfin Tetras are nice looking. Dont know their water requirements off hand though. 

If you go with danios, the long finned zebras are beautiful, but if you like them be causious of any tetra and make sure they arent fin nippers. 

Have you thought of some smaller cories for the bottom? Albino, or even habrosus? I think Pandas would work in soft water too. 

Or maybe some sparkling gourami? A shoal of 6 would look great, and you would still have room left. 

Neon tetra? African Dwarf Frog? Dwarf Gourami? Honey Sunset Gourami? Dwarf Loach? Rasbora? GloFish?

Just ideas! I know what you are going through, I am about to set up a 15 gal, and debating on what to add. I mean, I will be transfering fish from my 5 gal (betta, frog, and snail...otos to my 29 gal), and will be adding the neons from the 29 gal...but that still leaves me a nice amount of room to work...just have to think about what else my betta will tolerate (thankfully he is pretty docile and comical and seems to enjoy tankmates more than being alone). 

Good Luck...Cant wait to see it set up and stocked!!!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

A comment on your water. Those numbers indicate soft water, about what I have out of my tap, < 1 dGH and KH [1 d = 17.8 ppm]. So that means that the pH will easily lower in an established tank. My tap water pH is 7 - 7.2 but my aquaria run from 6 - 6.4 and a couple at 5. And this is all just natural, I do nothing to affect this. So, that means your pH values for fish can be below 7 which is normal for soft water fish [there are a few exceptions]. Just opens up the options to many more fish.

This is a 20g. It will get filled very fast with the average tetra, Danio, etc. It is your aquarium and it should obviously reflect your wants, but going with smaller fish and less active fish means considerably more fish, and that means more colour and interaction and interest.

There are so many "small" fish available these days, yet so many see what is "common" in most stores, especially the chain stores like Petsmart, and they are very limiting. "Expand your horizon" in a sense, and be rewarded with a truly stunning display that will provide hours of interest.

Byron.


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## iamtetsuo (Dec 10, 2009)

7.5 was my most recent reading but I'm thinking that the recent rains have made it more nuetral than normal. During the non rainy season (read most of the year in Cali) it's somewhere between 7.0 and 7.4. Very rare for it to go below 7 straight from the tap though.

A new store just opened near where I work so I'll probably go visit them tomorrow and see what they have to offer.

Also I got my birthday gift, which was the 20 gallon tank (not a surprise) and a tank stand (a surprise!). It's a 20 short, with the starter kit from petsmart. This includes: lid, flourescent light, Tetra 100 watt heater (from what I've read I'm not going to be using this, probably will just pop for a jager), Top Fin Power Filter 20 (build quality on these seems to be hit and miss, I'll probably end up buying a Marineland Bio-wheel filter), bigish net, and some food and water treatment samples. Oh and my sister picked out a decoration for the tank: a fake jaguar skull


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## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

To answer your question about water changes, you don't need to remove the fish. Buy yourself a gravel vacuum such as this Top Fin® Gravel Vacuums - Aquarium Maintenance - Fish - PetSmart and a 5 gallon bucket. You can siphon the water into the bucket and clean the debris out of the gravel at the same time. One 5 gallon bucket would equal about a 25% water change.


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## LasColinasCichlids (Jan 4, 2011)

iamtetsuo said:


> 7.5 was my most recent reading but I'm thinking that the recent rains have made it more nuetral than normal. During the non rainy season (read most of the year in Cali) it's somewhere between 7.0 and 7.4. Very rare for it to go below 7 straight from the tap though.
> 
> A new store just opened near where I work so I'll probably go visit them tomorrow and see what they have to offer.
> 
> Also I got my birthday gift, which was the 20 gallon tank (not a surprise) and a tank stand (a surprise!). It's a 20 short, with the starter kit from petsmart. This includes: lid, flourescent light, Tetra 100 watt heater (from what I've read I'm not going to be using this, probably will just pop for a jager), Top Fin Power Filter 20 (build quality on these seems to be hit and miss, I'll probably end up buying a Marineland Bio-wheel filter), bigish net, and some food and water treatment samples. Oh and my sister picked out a decoration for the tank: a fake jaguar skull


The Petsmart Starter Kits with heaters are pretty nice (buying the 15 gal tomorrow, and my 29 gal was one way back). The TopFin Heaters (I believe they are the same as Tetra), if they have the adjustable dial on the top, are actually pretty nice, I have had the same one on my 29 gal since I got it, which was a long while ago. Its a 100w and I love it. It had its issues with me trying to get it where I wanted it, but it only took a few days after I got use to how it worked, and love it som much, I will be buying one for the 15 gal of the same brand and style (as the 15 gal set up is heater-less). 

As for the filter...If you want my personal opinion and experience...save your money from the bio wheel and just get an AquaClear...they are a little more expensive, but so worth it!!! Bio wheels kinda suck in my eyes. I still run my biowheel on my 29 gal, but it just didnt do its job...researched it and asked around, and everyone had the same issues...so I added on an AquaClear 50 that now works with my Marineland Penguin 150 Biowheel...AWESOME. The AquaClear alone works wonders as well. Biggest issues for me with the biowheel is 1-the biowheel stops spinning very soon, and only spins once in a while if the water comes through the cartridge a certain way (which is usually having the cartridge up too high and unable to put the lid on). Biowheel is useless if it wont stay wet for the beneficial bacteria it was designed for. And I have troubleshooted it to no end, nothing to do for it. 2-the filtration capacity is lower than desired for the sized tanks they are designed for. The only nice thing is that they can hold up to two cartridges or other types of filter media, however its a snug fit. I use the cartridges designed for it in the first slot, and in the second I use Fluval ClearMax media in pre-sealed biobags. Then my AquaClear 50 is just amazing, its using the things designed for it...foam, carbon, and biomax. 

When I am ready to upgrade filters on my new 15 gal (it comes with the TopFin 20, which I will use my own bagged media on)...I will get an AquaClear.

As with any filter, maintenence and upkeep is required for continued success, otherwise even the greatest filters can and will fail. So always clean impellers and intake tubes monthly or as needed. 

If you need any equipment suggestions or reviews there is a section here on TFK you can scan through, but a lot of them are a couple of years old. Or you can post a new thread, or just ask any of us. I know I have gone through all brands and styles of all kinds of aquarium products in all catagories...and through it all I have found what works well, what has faults, personal likes and dislikes, and that spending that extra few bucks is so worth it!! lol.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I always mention this with respect to filters because it is very important: know what type of fish you intend to have before buying a filter.

I have had Aquaclear filters, but I would not select these for a 20g unless you intend keeping fish that need water currents, and in a 20g that type of fish are very limited. In a 20g with quiet fish, the sort of forest fish that Amanda has mentioned and I have hinted at with your soft water, and esp with any live plants, a sponge filter is sufficient. And it will be much less expensive.

Plan the aquarium before you buy any fish; know what you want first, then work towards it. And research any fish before bringing it home. There are many threads on this forum about aquarists who bought without doing this, and soon regretted it. And it is not easy disposing of troublesome fish.

Byron.


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## LasColinasCichlids (Jan 4, 2011)

Byron said:


> I always mention this with respect to filters because it is very important: know what type of fish you intend to have before buying a filter.
> 
> I have had Aquaclear filters, but I would not select these for a 20g unless you intend keeping fish that need water currents, and in a 20g that type of fish are very limited. In a 20g with quiet fish, the sort of forest fish that Amanda has mentioned and I have hinted at with your soft water, and esp with any live plants, a sponge filter is sufficient. And it will be much less expensive.
> 
> ...


 
As always, your knowledge and opinions is greatly respected by me, Byron. But I did want to point out that the outflow on the AquaClear is much slower and softer than any other HOB filter I have come across (especially the biowheel), and it is adjustable for the outflow to be even softer. I often have to double check to make sure its on because there is such a tiny current from it. But that's just my experience and opinion regarding them.  I dont have experience with sponge filters in any manner, so I cant say how I feel about their effectiveness as a filter. 

And I totally agree with planning ahead. I am having to invest way more money than I want to into my 29 gallon...as it was originally set up for cichlids, in which I quickly decided a couple of months in that I could only do dwarfs and didnt want to at that time, so have been slowly switching it to a more tropical community tank as it is now. Still need more plants, live ones. And I so wish I would have done sand instead of gravel...to switch now would be a major pain! Not to mention all the beneficial bacteria on my gravel for this long!! It would take me forever to slowly replace a section of gravel with sand!!! But the new 15 gal (getting it in like an hour), will be sand! I have thought ahead!!! lol


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Thanks Amanda. The one thing i don't like about HOB filters is that in a power outage they can restart without water and burn out. I had one that did this. Mind you, that was back in the 1980's and perhaps they are different now with preventative measures.

I still do not like the water current entering such a small tank. Of course, I am talking planted tanks, where filtration is only there to move the water around minimally and pass it through media that will remove suspended particulate matter, which is where a sponge is ideal.

Most of the small forest fish we can house in a 20g are fish from flooded forests, ponds, swamps, ditches and very slow-flowing streams. It is very stressful on these fish to have to fight any sort of current, and since they must do this night and day in the closed confines of the aquarium, having no escape, it does take its toll. This is why I push minimal filtration.


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## LasColinasCichlids (Jan 4, 2011)

Byron said:


> Thanks Amanda. The one thing i don't like about HOB filters is that in a power outage they can restart without water and burn out. I had one that did this. Mind you, that was back in the 1980's and perhaps they are different now with preventative measures.
> 
> I still do not like the water current entering such a small tank. Of course, I am talking planted tanks, where filtration is only there to move the water around minimally and pass it through media that will remove suspended particulate matter, which is where a sponge is ideal.
> 
> Most of the small forest fish we can house in a 20g are fish from flooded forests, ponds, swamps, ditches and very slow-flowing streams. It is very stressful on these fish to have to fight any sort of current, and since they must do this night and day in the closed confines of the aquarium, having no escape, it does take its toll. This is why I push minimal filtration.


Yeah, speaking of power outages...last night the electric company was replacing some electric cells and one of the 50 apartment units effected was mine...so I was without power for 3 hours. The good thing is that my Marineland BioWheel on the 29 gallon and the Tetra Whisper 10i on the 5 gallon are self priming, so I didnt have to worry about them. However, my AquaClear is NOT self-priming, so I unplugged it after the electric went out so it wouldnt burn the motor if the power came back on and I wasnt right there to prime it (only thing I dislike about the AquaClears). But after the power came back on I primed it easily and all was well. Only lost 2 guppy fry during the outage, but I dont think it had anything to do with the power loss as none of the water parameters changed during it. I did keep a close eye though to make sure there wasnt a climb in ammonia or nitrite or anything so that I would be ready to do an emergency water change if something of the sorts were to happen.


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## iamtetsuo (Dec 10, 2009)

Thanks for the input Bryon and Amanda!

Amanda I have heard just as many good stories about the Tetra brand heaters as bad stories. It seems they either work just fine or they don't work at all. :dunno:

Byron thanks for the recommendations, especially for the foam filter recommendation. I am doing a lot of research, finding out what fish are available in the area. I would prefer not to have to order fish online, but will consider it if I fall in love with a particular species. I have plenty of time and am not going to rush in to anything. I'm probably not going to move for another two weeks at least 

Do you have any fish in particular you think I should look at?


On the research side I went to the petsmart here and wrote down the fish they had available and I thought looked interesting. Now to find out if any of them fit my water parameters and are compatible...

Also saw they had some Anubis Nana plants started on rocks for a pretty good price. Otherwise their plant selection was pretty poor (some java ferns, a plant simply listed as "tropical fern", and some grasses).


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## Amethyst123 (Mar 4, 2011)

iamtetsuo said:


> 1. Planted. I love the look of natural plants and they allow me to skip the cycling process, so plants are going to be required.


Perhaps this has already been mentioned, as I know both Byron and Amanda are knowledgable about fish, but I didn't notice it in scanning through their posts, so I feel the need to point out that plants do NOT allow you to skip the cycling process. 

Plants help absorb nitrates, but that is the last step in the process. If you're not familiar with cycling, there are posts here and on other fish sites that explain how to do it in detail. Basically, you set up your tank, put in some source of ammonia, such as a small amount of fish food each day, then check the ammonia every few days. When it spikes and starts down, start checking nitrites. When they peak and start down, start checking nitrates. When the ammonia and nitrites are at 0 - no higher, not even .25 - and the nitrates are in the right range for the fish you are planning, your tank is cycled and ready for fish. If you don't put fish in right away, continue to add an ammonia source, so that the bacteria that are transforming the ammonia to nitrite, and the bacteria that are transforming the nitrite to nitrate don't die of starvation. 

It is possible, but not advisable, to cycle with fish in the tank. However, you run the risk of losing fish to ammonia and/or nitrite poisoning, and it takes a lot longer to cycle the tank completely because to avoid this risk you have to do frequent water changes, which removes the ammonia and/or nitrite and slows the reproduction of the right bacteria. Without fish, the levels can go high enough to support a fast-growing colony of bacteria, which cycles the tank more quickly. 

Also, getting some "used" filter media and/or substrate from an already cycled tank will help the process, as will adding beneficial bacteria during the cycling. 

Good luck with your new tank.

By the way, very pretty betta. I love his color. Is he yours, or just an avatar?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Amethyst123 said:


> Perhaps this has already been mentioned, as I know both Byron and Amanda are knowledgable about fish, but I didn't notice it in scanning through their posts, so I feel the need to point out that plants do NOT allow you to skip the cycling process.
> 
> Plants help absorb nitrates, but that is the last step in the process. If you're not familiar with cycling, there are posts here and on other fish sites that explain how to do it in detail. Basically, you set up your tank, put in some source of ammonia, such as a small amount of fish food each day, then check the ammonia every few days. When it spikes and starts down, start checking nitrites. When they peak and start down, start checking nitrates. When the ammonia and nitrites are at 0 - no higher, not even .25 - and the nitrates are in the right range for the fish you are planning, your tank is cycled and ready for fish. If you don't put fish in right away, continue to add an ammonia source, so that the bacteria that are transforming the ammonia to nitrite, and the bacteria that are transforming the nitrite to nitrate don't die of starvation.
> 
> ...


With respect I must correct this, as it is inaccurate.

Live plants do not normally assimilate nitrates, or if they do it is either minimal or as a "last resort" to get nitrogen. Their preferred source of nitrogen is ammonium. This holds for the majority of plants we use in aquaria, and there are scientific studies I can provide if anyone wants them. But you can also read this in many books, such as Hiscock's_ Encyclopedia of Aquarium Plants_, Walstad's _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_, and Kasselmann's _Aquarium Pants_.

When there are sufficient live plants in a new aquarium, with a few fish, there will be no discernible cycle, by which I mean that our common test kits (such as the excellent API) will usually not detect ammonia or nitrite above zero because it is so minimal. A "cycle" does still occur, as it must in all new tanks. But the live plants--provided they are sufficient for the fish load--will assimilate most of the ammonia/ammonium and they are faster in doing this than nitrosomonas bacteria. Bacteria will still appear but they will be secondary to the plants so to speak.

As the plants assimilation of ammonium/ammonia does not produce nitrite, any nitrite in the tank will only occur from the ammonia/ammonium taken up by the nitrosomonas bacteria, which is minimal as I said. The minimal nitrite will then result in the establishment of Nitrospira and similar bacteria, and nitrate will be the end product. But again, it will be minimal, due to the afore-mentioned. This is why in well planted aquaria, nitrates are always very low, often zero or certainly below 10 ppm. The fish load and plant selection has a lot to do with this, since the more fish there are (in numbers or size) the more ammonia, and the fewer plants there are the more opportunity there is for bacteria.

A word on ammonia/ammonium and nitrate. Fish produce ammonia in respiration, and the breakdown of their waste along with other organics by bacteria in the substrate also produces ammonia. In acidic water, this largely changes to ammonium, and the plants grab it fast. Faster growing plants grab more of it and quicker than slow-growing plants. In basic water (pH above 7) the ammonia produced by fish and bacteria is taken up by plants and much of it is converted into ammonium by the plants. They can also use the toxic ammonia in other ways I won't get into. Plants also have been shown to prefer ammonium from the water and not the substrate, since they assimilate it through the leaves. Ammonium is critical for all photosynthesizing organisms (including plants and algae) because it is used to produce their proteins.

In order to obtain nitrogen via nitrate, plants must take up the nitrate and then change it back into ammonium, a process termed nitrate reduction, and it appears to be a mirror image of nitrification. They do this with enzymes that only have this as their function. But this consumes a considerable amount of energy from the plant; studies show that it takes as much energy to convert nitrate back into ammonium as it does for nitrifying bacteria to convert ammonia to nitrite. Studies have also shown that the same plant species when given the option of ammonium and nitrate will always use ammonium first and only resort to nitrate when the ammonium is no longer available. Ammonium uptake is also faster; for example, the plant Pistia stratiotes was shown in a study to take up ammonium in just 4 hours, where its uptake of nitrates required a full 20 hours.

I have set up dozens of new tanks and introduced a lot of fish on day 1 and never had an issue with cycling. My latest was a rebuilding of my flooded Amazon aquascape, using a 70g aquarium with new substrate and a canister filter with new media. Plants were moved from the existing 90g tank, and then all 80 fish. Not one loss, and some of these are very sensitive wild-caught species.

Byron.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

iamtetsuo said:


> Thanks for the input Bryon and Amanda!
> 
> Amanda I have heard just as many good stories about the Tetra brand heaters as bad stories. It seems they either work just fine or they don't work at all. :dunno:
> 
> ...


Anubias is an easy plant; it attaches to wood or rock (the rhizome must not be buried in the substrate or it may rot) and prefers less light so it does well in rear corners or under floating plants where it is not in direct bright light. Algae easily forms on its leaves in brighter light, and in some cases the leaves will yellow and die from too much light.

Avoid the "fern" as i suspect that is a terrestrial plant. Many land plants are sold in fish stores and while they may look "nice" at first, they usually slowly rot when submersed permanently. Same for any "grasses" but if it is the common "Fountain Plant" (species of Ophiopogon) it can sometimes last a year or so submersed. But it is also slow growing and thus not a fast user of nutrients (ammonia/ammonium).

For fish, Amanda had some suggestion a couple of posts back. Check through our profiles (second tab from the left in the blue bar across the top) under cyprinids for many small species that love soft water, and in characins. Of the latter, Ember Tetra are beautiful, and many of the pencilfish are well suited to a 20g planted tank. The nice thing of any of these smaller fish is being able to have more of them, so even in a relatively small space like a 20g you have a large variety of colour, behaviours and interactions that makes for a very interesting aquarium display.

Byron.


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## Amethyst123 (Mar 4, 2011)

Byron, 

Apparently I was misinformed previously about plants absorbing nitrates. In fact, I've been told not to put plants in a tank until the tank was cycled, though I've never followed that advice. 

I have been following the discussion about ammonia and nitrites in another thread, and have read what you and Dawn said there about highly planted tanks. I've never had a tank planted heavily enough to have the effect you describe, but since you have done it I bow to your greater experience and knowledge.


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## iamtetsuo (Dec 10, 2009)

Amethyst123 said:


> By the way, very pretty betta. I love his color. Is he yours, or just an avatar?


Yes that was my betta. Unfortunately he recently passed away. I just saw a betta today with the exact same coloring at the aquarium store today oddly enough

So my girlfriend and I went and visited a new aquarium store in the area today and she fell in love with mollies. I'm a bit leery as I've heard they will reproduce like crazy, but the store owner offered if we do end up getting mollies to take any and all fry for credit. The owner of the store was very nice and very knowledgeable too (he actually knew bettas need a heated tank!). His selection for freshwater wasn't anywhere near as good as the other stores in the area, but the quality seemed to be much better. His saltwater selection was incredible!

~edit: Specifically she fell in love with balloon belly molly's


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

iamtetsuo said:


> Yes that was my betta. Unfortunately he recently passed away. I just saw a betta today with the exact same coloring at the aquarium store today oddly enough
> 
> So my girlfriend and I went and visited a new aquarium store in the area today and she fell in love with mollies. I'm a bit leery as I've heard they will reproduce like crazy, but the store owner offered if we do end up getting mollies to take any and all fry for credit. The owner of the store was very nice and very knowledgeable too (he actually knew bettas need a heated tank!). His selection for freshwater wasn't anywhere near as good as the other stores in the area, but the quality seemed to be much better. His saltwater selection was incredible!
> 
> ~edit: Specifically she fell in love with balloon belly molly's


You will likely have problems with mollies in your water. Molly is a livebearer, and all livebearers require hard basic (alkaline) water; in soft water they readily fall victim to disease, often fungus and such, because of the lack of mineral. When I had mollies with my soft water, I used a substrate of dolomite gravel to raise the hardness (calcium and magnesium) and corresponding pH.

You have soft water, so soft water fish should be your focus.

Also, the "balloon" type fish are I believe quite prone to health issues due to the deformity. I will leave it for those with more knowledge on this to comment, but I myself would not buy such fish.


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## LasColinasCichlids (Jan 4, 2011)

Byron said:


> You will likely have problems with mollies in your water. Molly is a livebearer, and all livebearers require hard basic (alkaline) water; in soft water they readily fall victim to disease, often fungus and such, because of the lack of mineral. When I had mollies with my soft water, I used a substrate of dolomite gravel to raise the hardness (calcium and magnesium) and corresponding pH.
> 
> You have soft water, so soft water fish should be your focus.
> 
> Also, the "balloon" type fish are I believe quite prone to health issues due to the deformity. I will leave it for those with more knowledge on this to comment, but I myself would not buy such fish.


Very true regarding balloon mollies. They are a hybrid and come with tons of issues. I just recently lost mine...he went through an uphill battle with diseases before he finally gave out after coming down with dropsey (had ich just months prior). They have weaker immune systems than other mollies, and they have difficulty swimming normally as they kind of waddle in the water like a penguin does on land. 

Yes, the livebearers like the harder water, which is one reason I have so many as the fish I truely want cant live in my water, so I have to work with what fish I can keep (still tons, as my water isnt incredibly hard, just moderate hard). 

And just to comment on the massive breeding of mollies...if you go with all one sex it isnt an issue. Some have issues with aggression between the males, but if you have like 4-5 of them it is spread out and not an issue. On this note, I have also witnessed the balloon mollies have a very persistant personality compared to other mollies who tend to be a bit more forgiving with their attention span. What I mean is that a balloon molly tends to be more focused on aggrivating other fish, especially other mollies (male or female), until that fish is either super stressed out or until that fish turns around and gets aggressive. 

The balloon mollies are cute though, but after my experiences with them, I will no longer give into those fat lil guys, no matter how cute they look when the waddle past the front of the tank.


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## brownmane (Jan 7, 2011)

In response to what kind of fish...I have a 20 gal planted tank that I started last October. My water PH is 7.4. I have had 7 lemon tetra since starting up my tank. At first their colour was just pale yellow, but within a week of settling in, their beautiful black markings on their dorsal and underneath (I'm not altogether familiar with fishy terminology) fins came out. They are active and fun to watch as they chase each other and also enjoy leaping for food at feeding time. I like the yellow fish with the green plants.

I have 2 panda cories which I love, although I did start out with 5. According to my LFS, pandas are not commonly stocked by them so I couldn't replace the lost pandas. They swim all over the tank at all times. However, I did need to add 3 more laser striped cories to make the pandas comfortable.

My laser stripe cories have been in the tank for 2 months and spend the day under the driftwood in the tank. I can only see them swimming around at night with minimal night lighting on and they quickly hide if I do anything to try and see them in daylight. In that sense, I'm kind of disappointed that I can't really watch them. But I do know they are healthy when they come out to feed at night...I just can't see what they really look like.

So that's my thoughts about what I enjoy in my 20 gal :-D


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## LasColinasCichlids (Jan 4, 2011)

brownmane said:


> In response to what kind of fish...I have a 20 gal planted tank that I started last October. My water PH is 7.4. I have had 7 lemon tetra since starting up my tank. At first their colour was just pale yellow, but within a week of settling in, their beautiful black markings on their dorsal and underneath (I'm not altogether familiar with fishy terminology) fins came out. They are active and fun to watch as they chase each other and also enjoy leaping for food at feeding time. I like the yellow fish with the green plants.
> 
> I have 2 panda cories which I love, although I did start out with 5. According to my LFS, pandas are not commonly stocked by them so I couldn't replace the lost pandas. They swim all over the tank at all times. However, I did need to add 3 more laser striped cories to make the pandas comfortable.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a nice set up you have there, brownmane. Have you considered trying to add a couple more cories to see if that might help? Or might that overcrowd your bottom? Either way, I can imagine what a beautiful color combo the yellow and the green would have.


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## iamtetsuo (Dec 10, 2009)

OK so based upon what is available locally I think I am going to go with this plan:

Plants: Java Ferns, Anubis Nana, and some other Anubis varieties.

Fish: Tetras, probably two schools of different species, or one school of one species and then maybe danios? Bottom feeders I am still indecisive between Loaches, corys, or Rubber Lip Plecos.


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## Amethyst123 (Mar 4, 2011)

iamtetsuo said:


> OK so based upon what is available locally I think I am going to go with this plan:
> 
> Plants: Java Ferns, Anubis Nana, and some other Anubis varieties.
> 
> Fish: Tetras, probably two schools of different species, or one school of one species and then maybe danios? Bottom feeders I am still indecisive between Loaches, corys, or Rubber Lip Plecos.


I am very fond of my cories. My peppereds and albinos are very active, regardless of time of day, in my large community tank, but were more skittish in a 10 or 14g tank. If you have enough hiding places, plants and other decor, they might like your 20g. I would think loaches and plecos would both get too big for a 20g, but I could be wrong, as I've not had either. Just my impression from what others have said.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

iamtetsuo said:


> OK so based upon what is available locally I think I am going to go with this plan:
> 
> Plants: Java Ferns, Anubis Nana, and some other Anubis varieties.
> 
> Fish: Tetras, probably two schools of different species, or one school of one species and then maybe danios? Bottom feeders I am still indecisive between Loaches, corys, or Rubber Lip Plecos.


A 20g is too small for loaches except one of the dwarf species [two are included in our fish profiles, the Dwarf Loach and the Banded Dwarf Loach]; they must be in groups of 5 or more.

A rubberlip pleco attains 4-6 inches and I would not house one in a 20g. A group of corys (also a shoaling fish, 5-6 work well) is one option.

In a 20g I would say one species of shoaling fish if they are the "average" sized species like most of the tetra. And danios, being active swimmers, would fare better in a 20g long rather than a 20g high. If you go with the "dwarf" species, you can have several groups which means more interest in a relatively small space.


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## LasColinasCichlids (Jan 4, 2011)

I vote cories!


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## brownmane (Jan 7, 2011)

LasColinasCichlids said:


> Sounds like a nice set up you have there, brownmane. Have you considered trying to add a couple more cories to see if that might help? Or might that overcrowd your bottom? Either way, I can imagine what a beautiful color combo the yellow and the green would have.


Thanks. I thought that one or two more cories might be overloading the tank.


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## brownmane (Jan 7, 2011)

I love my cories! I would vote cories as well. But don't rush...cories do need an established tank.


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## iamtetsuo (Dec 10, 2009)

Woo! We got accepted to an awesome place! Moving in this weekend, and then next week I can start fussing with my tank. :redyay:

Also found the water quality survey for the past year for the city of Santa Cruz. Doesn't list ph but lucky for me that's an easy enough test to preform

http://www.cityofsantacruz.com/Modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentid=19831


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## brownmane (Jan 7, 2011)

Good luck with your move.
I've been reading up on pH a bit lately, and from what I've gathered, for new fish enthusiasts, it is more important to have stable pH that the fish can acclimatize to than worry if it is exactly in the right zone. My pH is 7.4 in a planted tank and I have (as mentioned above) lemon tetras and panda and laser stripe cories


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## iamtetsuo (Dec 10, 2009)

Woo! We get the keys tomorrow! Moving starts in earnest on Saturday, and should be all moved in by Sunday. Which means next week I can start acquiring stuff for my tank.

First step will be finding gravel, driftwood, and other inanimate tank stuff. Got to get a better heater and a sponge filter too. Then plants then maybe next weekend fish!


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## iamtetsuo (Dec 10, 2009)

Starting to accumulate stuff for my aquarium. Got a piece of driftwood today as well as a gravel vac.

Now I'm reconsidering my fish mix. I think I want to go with a pair of dwarf gourami and a group of tetras (probably a long finned variety of some sort). And cories down the line.

How many fish would be good for this set up? 2 dwarf gourami, 6 tetras, and 4 cories? More? Less?


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## LasColinasCichlids (Jan 4, 2011)

iamtetsuo said:


> Starting to accumulate stuff for my aquarium. Got a piece of driftwood today as well as a gravel vac.
> 
> Now I'm reconsidering my fish mix. I think I want to go with a pair of dwarf gourami and a group of tetras (probably a long finned variety of some sort). And cories down the line.
> 
> How many fish would be good for this set up? 2 dwarf gourami, 6 tetras, and 4 cories? More? Less?


Depends on the tetras, as if they are fast swimmers, the gourami wont appreciate it very much. And a lot of tetras are known for nipping and tend to nip at gourami because they are slower and have that breathing thing (I know the name of it but cant remember how to spell it, starts with an L, like labrinth or something to that effect.) I also hear that very colorful fish can bring out aggression in male gourami (even the dwarf). If you do two dwarf gourami, I recommend a male and female pair to avoid aggression as best as possible, or maybe both female. And for cories, I would go 5-6. If doing gourami, you might want to look into 6 rasbora instead, as they are slower swimmers and a better fit with gourami. I do suggest reading up on dwarf gourami in the profiles here, as they come with their own risks. 

Wanted to mention that if you are planning on doing live plants, sand is probably a better option than gravel, and even though cories are fine with gravel, they do tend to prefer sand. (I have mine on gravel...and if it wasnt such a major pain to switch my established 29 gallon from gravel to sand, I would so do so...but too much beneficial bacteria to lose. Still might do it many more months down the road as I would like it fully planted like my 15 gal as well.) At least I did my 15 gallon in sand, and even though it was a slight pain, it was so worth it! Of course, unless doing loaches or dealing with certain plants, substrate is a personal choice.

Good Luck, and cant wait to hear what you go with and to see pics of it set up. If you need a link to the cycling article here on TFK let me know...if not its in the top of the freshwater aquarium thread list titled something like "A beginners guide to cycling an aquarium".


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Yes, I too would reconsider the dwarf gourami. If you really like this fish, have a look at the very similar but slightly smaller and more "freindly" honey gourami, also in the profiles [click the shaded names...]. Probably a better fit for a smaller tank with other fish.


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## iamtetsuo (Dec 10, 2009)

Purchased a Jager 75watt heater, 20 pounds of eco complete substrate, and a Duetto DJ-100 filter.

Got a cool piece of mopari wood soaking right now, should be ready by the time the substrate arrives

Not looking forward to making 20 gallons of treated water though...

Is it best to put in the water treatment before or after putting the water in the tank?


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## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

Doesn't really matter since you don't have any fish yet. Just fill up the tank then add your water conditioner.

Post some pics of your progress. We love watching a tank build.


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## iamtetsuo (Dec 10, 2009)

Hoping to add some photos soon, don't have internet at the house yet so that's complicating matters.

And now I'm changing my mind on what type of fish to get again! :lol:

Now I'm considering a female betta tank. Why I didn't think of this sooner I don't know. 

I will probably end up setting up and planting the tank next weekend. So fish maybe the weekend after?


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## brownmane (Jan 7, 2011)

I would suggest taking a little more time before adding your fish. The tank does need to cycle to make the environment safer for your fish. Take the time to dream and plan. IMO you will be happier, you will have a better fish survival rate and if you spend the time choosing your fish, the last thing that you want to experience is the death of a beautiful fish.


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## iamtetsuo (Dec 10, 2009)

A planted tank is already cycled, and this tank is going to be heavily planted

Speaking of which purchased a couple of plants today. One hybrid Anubis Nana, and a sword (forget the name at the moment) that the LFS gave me for half off. He never put it in the substrate so it's not doing so hot, but once I get in planted it should thrive. He also loves the idea of a female betta sorority, said he's never had a customer run one before. He'll be putting in a special order for 6 bettas from the local breeders for me. 

Substrate will be going in tomorrow and I will be arranging the driftwood and planting. Might end up purchasing some rocks too. Sorry for the lack of photos at the moment, I'll take some tomorrow while I set the tank up.

Not looking forward to lugging 20 gallons of water from my faucet to the tank...


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## iamtetsuo (Dec 10, 2009)

Woo set the tank up today!

Starting out










Tank with gravel in it and a couple of gallons of water. The skull is in there to help not disturb the water.

Several runs to the sink and back later and we have:










Plants and driftwood and another skull! Woo we're getting somewhere.

Even MORE trips to the sink and back and a bit of swearing because I spilled water on the filter directions before I had even opened them (whoooops) and we have:










Tah dah! All full of water and planted and good times!










Raaawr! Jaguar skull! Also present in photo Red Melon Sword and Anubis Nana hybrid. The sword is a bit beat up but the LFS gave it to me for half off becuase of that.










Yar matey! Here we have the two pieces of driftwood, the Jager 75w heater and the Duetto 100 filter. Also present is a bunch of java ferns and the anubis again.

Off to the fish store now for some more plants!


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## brownmane (Jan 7, 2011)

Looking good:thumbsup:


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## LasColinasCichlids (Jan 4, 2011)

Awesome work! I personally love the look of melon swords!! And the jag skull is an awesome piece!!!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Nice layout, well balanced. I am not myself partial to certain "decor";-) but that is not an issue, it is your tank and should reflect your needs. And the decor will do absolutely no harm, the fish don't care, they just like "stuff" around them.

The swords will recover; If that is not an enriched substrate (Flourite or something, can't tell), add some Flourish Comprehensive or substrate fertilizer next to the swords. They are heavy feeders and need some "food" to get going. The existing leaves will all die, just so you know; new growth from the centre of the crown will indicate the plant is fine.

Byron.


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## iamtetsuo (Dec 10, 2009)

Byron said:


> Nice layout, well balanced. I am not myself partial to certain "decor";-) but that is not an issue, it is your tank and should reflect your needs. And the decor will do absolutely no harm, the fish don't care, they just like "stuff" around them.
> 
> The swords will recover; If that is not an enriched substrate (Flourite or something, can't tell), add some Flourish Comprehensive or substrate fertilizer next to the swords. They are heavy feeders and need some "food" to get going. The existing leaves will all die, just so you know; new growth from the centre of the crown will indicate the plant is fine.
> 
> Byron.


Haha thanks! Skulls aren't everyone's cup of tea, but I like a bit of whimsy in my tank 

The substrate is Eco-Complete which is enriched. The sword is already looking better, the greens are a bit brighter today.


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## iamtetsuo (Dec 10, 2009)

Also noticed this morning that the back driftwood brought along some fungus. I thought I had cleaned all of it off after removing it from my old 3 gallon, but apparently I was wrong. I was thinking about maybe picking up a snail to help remove it.

Good idea? Bad?

Just saw Byron's warning in the other thread. I will be removing this driftwood ASAP. Can I save the java fern rooted to it? Or does that need to go too?


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## iamtetsuo (Dec 10, 2009)

Disaster!

The other piece of driftwood had been soaking with the infected driftwood and had started to grow fungus too! :-(

So my plan currently is remove everything associated with the bad driftwood. So both pieces are out (really pissed about this as the centerpiece was REALLY expensive). All java fern is gone as it has been rooted to the fungus driftwood since I owned it.

Sad thing is that after this fungus appeared on the driftwood (after having it in the tank for almost two years) my betta got sick and died. Not taking any chances on this one, it could just be coincedence, but I'm not willing to bet a tankful of fishes lives on it.

Should I remove the thermometer and pirate skull too as they were from the same tank that the "bad" driftwood came from? What about the nana and sword? They soaked in the same bucket with the driftwood overnight after I purchased them before going in the tank.


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## Amethyst123 (Mar 4, 2011)

Sorry about having to remove your driftwood. It was really nice looking. Maybe there is some way to sterilize it - by boiling, perhaps? I don't know what warning you are referring to, so this may not be a good idea. Just a thought.

Another thought, totally unrelated to the driftwood - I personally wouldn't put bettas in a tank with your skulls, because their fins could get caught and tear on the teeth and other pointy parts. Probably more of a consideration with male bettas, but some of the females might have long enough fins for it to be an issue, too. Also, you'll need more places to hide for a betta sorority tank.

Also, you talked about a "heavily planted tank" and not needing to cycle due to that. Your tank doesn't look to me like it's heavily planted, especially if you had to take out the java fern. Of course, you may be planning to add more plants. Seems like Byron said something about 70% or more planted in his response to my earlier post about still needing to cycle a tank in spite of plants. 

Good luck with your tank. I'm looking forward to more photos as you get everything settled and get your fish.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Sad news about the wood fungus. That chunk does look like Mopani wood (two-tone), and that is the culprit. I have never seen any fungus on the dark (near-black) wood I use, which is called Malaysian driftwood, or iron wood, or jeta wood, or mangrove root. All of these may not be the same, but they are names I have seen applied to the wood looking like that I use, and never an issue for me.

I would leave the non-wood decor; this fungus as far as i know needs the host wood.


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## iamtetsuo (Dec 10, 2009)

Byron said:


> Sad news about the wood fungus. That chunk does look like Mopani wood (two-tone), and that is the culprit. I have never seen any fungus on the dark (near-black) wood I use, which is called Malaysian driftwood, or iron wood, or jeta wood, or mangrove root. All of these may not be the same, but they are names I have seen applied to the wood looking like that I use, and never an issue for me.
> 
> I would leave the non-wood decor; this fungus as far as i know needs the host wood.


Actually the Malaysian driftwood (at least that's what the LFS called it) was the culprit. Odd thing was it took two years before this fungus appeared.

Maybe it was carried in during a water change? I was using spring water at that point and though the local water company did treat it with chlorine sometimes they used very very minimal doses of chlorine.

Purchased an interesting rock from the LFS to root the anubis to. Purchased a small piece of Mopani from petsmart which I will start soaking tonight. The LFS has another piece of Mopani that is interesting but nowhere near as intricate as the previous piece was.

Going to go rinse the rock with boiling water and put it in then set the mopani to soak.

More plant purchases in the future now. Need to find a good floating plant, petsmart had some anacharis but it looked pretty nasty (brownish green color instead of the healthy bright green). Will talk to LFS owner tomorrow to see if he can order something.


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## LasColinasCichlids (Jan 4, 2011)

iamtetsuo said:


> Actually the Malaysian driftwood (at least that's what the LFS called it) was the culprit. Odd thing was it took two years before this fungus appeared.
> 
> Maybe it was carried in during a water change? I was using spring water at that point and though the local water company did treat it with chlorine sometimes they used very very minimal doses of chlorine.
> 
> ...


My FAVORITE floating plant, which can also be put in the substrate/planted is wisteria!!! I have like 3 or 4 bunches in my 29g and one large bunch in my 15g!! And since its a stem plant it takes in ammonia/ammonium quicker than rooted plants. And wisteria kept in bunches looks so beautiful, and in my opinion the name and the look when bunched is whimsical.:-D Moneywort and Pennywort can float, but I think it looks better "planted", and with enough of it lined up it looks like a bamboo forest which is pretty awesome looking.


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## iamtetsuo (Dec 10, 2009)

TAKE TWO










Sorry about the reflections off the glass, I was in a bit of a hurry and forgot to turn the room lights off.

No room for the rock I purchased unfortunately. I'm going to take it back see if they can exchange for a smaller piece.










Moved both skulls to one side. A little busy perhaps, but should be less noticeable once I figure out something to plant up front (betta bulbs perhaps?)










I am really digging the big new darker piece of driftwood, there are a total of four natural holes straight through the piece! I plugged one up with the java fern though. Two of them are big enough for fish to swim through (and yes the piece is quite smooth). Other piece mainly acts as a prop to keep the other piece from falling over, but makes a nice archway of its own (not shown) and adds a bit of color to the tank.










Really poor quality on this shot, I'll try to take some better shots again later. But showcases another hole in the wood, and the arch under the piece.


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## LasColinasCichlids (Jan 4, 2011)

Very nice!! I am digging the darker piece of wood!!


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## brownmane (Jan 7, 2011)

Nice job.


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