# brackish to marine?



## Aquarius Keeper (Sep 22, 2008)

I'm totally new to the salt-water thing. 

I have two brackish tanks - one is a 15g that has been cycling forever while I wait for my LFS to cough up a baby F8 puffer fish. He's having no luck and I'm sick of having this empty aquarium on my desk, and then just now I thought -

Say, would it be possible to go full marine with this little tank? Just, you know, slowly up the salinity over the next week so the bacteria don't get hit too hard, and then buy some saltwater fish?

It's an eclipse top/bio-wheel aquarium. Like I said, I'm totally new to this. Is this feasible or does it involve buying all sorts of expensive equipment that I don't know about?

Thanks,

Jonathan


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## Aquarius Keeper (Sep 22, 2008)

Since posting I've done some more research, but I'm still curious.

Is it possible to have a small salt water tank using a standard filter and maybe a little live rock? Something simple mind you - no fancy corals or fish, maybe just a few clowns? Essentially a brackish/tidal tank but with full marine salinity? I feel like I've seen this done...

I don't have the money or the time to do anything elaborate at this juncture.

By the way, what is it about salt water/ SW fish that makes standard filtration for the same amount of fresh water not effective?

Thanks,

Jonathan


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## Kellsindell (Sep 15, 2008)

the tank should be fine with SW fish in them. Just take the bio-wheel out and add about 20lbs of live rock. Just don't get a pufferfish (you can still get the figure8 and put it in there because they are brackish), because they get way too big to be in a tank that small, but as long as you're not getting corals that should be fine with what you have already. If you do want corals then you'll need good lighting roughly 3watts per gallon(wpg) for the easiest corals see http://www.fishforum.com/coral-reef/coral-lighting-acclimation-19113/ if you do want corals, or are considering, if not then just remember to clean that filter daily or everyother day(depending on bio-load) and it'll be ok.


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## Kellsindell (Sep 15, 2008)

Aquarius Keeper said:


> Since posting I've done some more research, but I'm still curious.
> 
> Is it possible to have a small salt water tank using a standard filter and maybe a little live rock? Something simple mind you - no fancy corals or fish, maybe just a few clowns? Essentially a brackish/tidal tank but with full marine salinity? I feel like I've seen this done...
> 
> ...


The clowns would be ok and no mor then 2 of the same breed... and i have no i dea why, it may be because the water is a bit thicker or maybe the colors of SW fish effect it because they're so pretty :lol: jk jk. Seriously though, no idea.


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## Aquarius Keeper (Sep 22, 2008)

Clean the filter EVERY DAY!?

I mean, I don't have a problem with that personally (well maybe a little bit ...), but I travel a lot, and getting someone to come over and clean a filter every day is not that easy!

I don't get it - why is it that you can have 5 3" fish in a cycled freshwater tank and only clean the filter a couple times a month ... but if you change it to 5 3" fish in a saltwater tank, you have to clean it every day??

Really I want to know - I'm not being obstinate - It looks like I'm actually going to go through with this...!

Jonathan


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

freshwater and saltwater are two completely different things.

generally speaking, freshwater filters are to house benifical bacteria and keep the water from being stagnent. I personally only clean a hang on back filter when it overflows (you'd know what im talking about when it happens)

as for salt water, i recommend NO filter, why? because it traps poop which becomes a nitrate factory. in saltwater systems nitrates are bad (as well as fresh in dangerous amounts) but with live rock and live sand, possibly a sump w/ protien skimmer and cheato algae in it, along with water changes weekly obtaining 0 nitrates should not be a difficult task. 

im unsure of the size of tank your planning on using, but generally its easier to go larger (except more expensive) as water conditions will be more stable. having good circulation and enough established live rock should be good enough filtration.

you CANNOT house as many fish in saltwater tanks because of many reasons. territories, oxygen content isnt as great as freshwater, space (alot is taken from the live rock) compatibility and so forth.

*PLEASE do more research* before spending your hard earned money. it will save the lives of the fish as well as the hole in your wallet, not to mention the headache that comes with it.


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## Kellsindell (Sep 15, 2008)

I have kept a few fish in a 25g with live rock and a filter for about 2years, but the filter was for a 65g and it worked nicely. it's possible but only if you are willing to keep up with it.


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## Aquarius Keeper (Sep 22, 2008)

Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it.

So you're saying that while low level nitrates are okay in FW, in saltwater the have to be 0 ppm?? How come?

It's a 15 gallon and it's been cycling for over a month ... will all that bacteria translate at all into the SW as I raise the salinity, or am I basically starting over no matter what?

Also, how many pounds of live rock would be appropriate for this kind of 15g setup?


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## Kellsindell (Sep 15, 2008)

You may lose all the bacteria, i can't say for sure or you may lose some of it. i would just go with it'll be a fresh cycle just to be on the safe side. 

In SW our test kits read 0ppm but they are actually more then that. they don't read absolute zero for ammonia PO3 or nitrite NO3 or nitrite NO4( i think that's a bit backward:shock. If you have more then 0 then it'll be harmful to the fish but also you'll have green hair algae grow along with other things in the tank and it'll look ugly.

The general rule of thumb is 2lbs per gallon, but you'd be ok with more or less like 20 or 25lbs


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## Aquarius Keeper (Sep 22, 2008)

Well, I understand about ammonia and nitrite, but I still don't understand why FW aquariums can tolerate 10-40 ppm nitrate bit saltwater tanks can't tolerate any??

Mind you I'm not trying to keep corals here...


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Aquarius Keeper said:


> Well, I understand about ammonia and nitrite, but I still don't understand why FW aquariums can tolerate 10-40 ppm nitrate bit saltwater tanks can't tolerate any??
> Mind you I'm not trying to keep corals here...


SOME freshwater fish are very Nitrate tolerant. Some are not. Anyone who has kept Danios understands that Nitrates of 100 ppm are not going to phase this fish. On the other hand, Nitrates of 20 ppm would be cause for alarm in an aquarium with a Uaru, Discus, or other sensitive species. Some fish are more tolerant of captivity than others. That is just the way it is.

Saltwater fish are used to an environment that is much more stable than freshwater. The water chemistry in the ocean changes very little over time, maintaining constant levels that must be maintained in order to be successful in the aquarium. 

Another factor is way fish interact with water. Freshwater fish absorb water thru their skin. They don't actually drink. Saltwater fish directly drink the water. This is a huge distinction that makes the 2 systems 100% different when it comes to the required water parameters. 

The simple fact is that saltwater has a different makeup of salts and major ions than freshwater, causing the fish to have evolved differently. They behave differently in an aquarium, have different needs, and require different levels of care.

So, the simple answer to your question....

Evolution.


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## Aquarius Keeper (Sep 22, 2008)

Much appreciated pasfur -

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this - I've been looking into going SW for all of 48 hours now and however much research, it all just seems to grow more complicated.

I read on another site that fish-only SW tanks can usually have nitrates up to 20ppm - that seems pretty easy to stay on top of - is that true?

But here's what I don't get - where does the nitrate GO? I understand bacteria converting nitrite to nitrate in freshwater systems ... but I don't get what's eating the nitrate? I thought only plants did that...?

Thanks,

Jonathan


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## Kellsindell (Sep 15, 2008)

I was going to give you a brief discription, but i think SKAustin did it well with this sticky. http://www.fishforum.com/sumps-refugiums/understanding-sumps-15943/ . just take a look and read it and you'll see what we in the SW business do about nitrates. Other then the refugium we use a skimmer that gets rid of the waste, much like the mechanical filters you would use for a fw tank, but it has many differences. the sticky shows them.


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## Aquarius Keeper (Sep 22, 2008)

Kellsindell said:


> I was going to give you a brief discription, but i think SKAustin did it well with this sticky. http://www.fishforum.com/sumps-refugiums/understanding-sumps-15943/ . just take a look and read it and you'll see what we in the SW business do about nitrates. Other then the refugium we use a skimmer that gets rid of the waste, much like the mechanical filters you would use for a fw tank, but it has many differences. the sticky shows them.


Thanks Kellsindell - that's a great article and definitely gives me an idea of what I'm getting into if I continue on this path towards someday creating a reef tank...

But I didn't see an answer in it to the nitrate question. I get that protein skimmers removed organic matter - i.e. get rid of it before it becomes ammonia, then nitrite, then nitrate.

But I still don't understand what happens to nitrate in established SW tanks. I mean, I assume there is some degree of nitrogen cycling going on (organics to ammonia to nitrite to nitrate) - otherwise, what's the point of the live rock? I thought the live rock was a biological filter, meaning it converts ammonia to nitrite to nitrate - a protein skimmer as I understand it wouldn't affect nitrate because nitrate is a chemical and a protein skimmer removes organics.

What piece of the puzzle am I missing?

Let me know - I just upped my salinity to 0.021!! 

Thanks,

Jonathan


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

i believe one of the things pods eat is poop although im not so sure about that

i do know that cheato algae in the sump feeds off of nitrates as well as a weekly water change that helps to eliminate them.
having a fish only tank will allow you alittle room for some nitrates but it isnt hard to keep them low/if not 0 if your doing things right.


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## Kellsindell (Sep 15, 2008)

Yes and also the skimmer is designed to take out detritus before it begins to create nitrates. if it doesn't then you'll have a pretty red carpet... in otherword cyano bacteria and that's a whole nother topic. (that goes from high phosphates too)


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## Aquarius Keeper (Sep 22, 2008)

Right, thats what I was saying - protein skimmers remove organics before they become nitrate ... but then I don't understand what the live rock does, since the protein skimmer is preventing the cycle from starting?


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## Kellsindell (Sep 15, 2008)

Live rock is kinda like a bio filter. it absorbs the nitrate and detritus so it's not harmful. Many people will cook (take liverock and put into a container and put a powerhead, skimmer,and fresh salt water and mix then move to a new container and shake detritus out and put back in to container with new sw and do again for about a month some for 2 months. this will "recharge" your liverock) the live rock to keep it filtering the water better. (i have never done it in the past 5 years and almost all the same LR)


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Kellsindell said:


> Live rock is kinda like a bio filter. it absorbs the nitrate and detritus so it's not harmful. Many people will cook (take liverock and put into a container and put a powerhead, skimmer,and fresh salt water and mix then move to a new container and shake detritus out and put back in to container with new sw and do again for about a month some for 2 months. this will "recharge" your liverock) the live rock to keep it filtering the water better. (i have never done it in the past 5 years and almost all the same LR)


Slight disagreement here Kell, even if just semantics. This isn't exactly a common practice. Rather than saying "many" people, i'd say a few people. I would also suggest that they made a mistake somewhere along the way and that the everyday reefkeeper should avoid disassembling their reef and instead engage in proper upkeep. Not a big issue, but not something i'd want to publicly support.

Back to Nitrate... it isn't that Live Rock absorbs Nitrate. Where does the NItrate go? It is part of the biological cycle. In marine aquariums another bacteria can be encouraged to convert Nitrate to Nitrogen Gas. The Nitrogen Gas is harmless and leaves the system naturally via oxygen exchange at the surface. These bacteria live deep inside the anerobic pores of the Live Rock. 

These same bacteria are encouraged to grow with the use of Deep Sand Bed and Plenum systems. I personally support the DSB concept and find it easier to install and maintain. This is one of the hottest topics in the hobby today and there are literally thousands of google hits on this discussion. I encourage you to read anything written by Bob Goemans on this issue.


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## Kellsindell (Sep 15, 2008)

Well i've seen a few thousand use this method and to me that's many.


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