# Several tank planning questions : )



## conwayscience (Apr 5, 2010)

Hi my name is Craig. I'm a recently graduating molecular biologist and now that I'm finally making money I might be able to finally afford the mythical reef tank : ). I've previously only done 20 gallon freshwater setups, but I've always leaned towards live plant setups that mimic natural filtration as best as I can. As I figure things I'd like to blast off a series of random questions. I'll be researching as I wait for answers but I'm curious if you guys will beat me to the answers, in which case, thank you. 

Goals in tank: I'm very interested in corals and invertebrates. Standard cleaning crew fascinate me enough. Maybe serpentine starfish and tiger tail sea cucumber as well. Live sponge? For vertebrates I've onlly really thought about some sort of sand sifter or goby. 



1) Tank size- a 55 gallon seems like a nice size to me. I'm honestly a little intimidated of the 125 gallon tanks, just from a simple standpoint of not being able to reach the bottom of the tank with my arm to attend maintenance. (i'm average 5'11"). My question is would the 125 be uncomparably more stable though? I wouldn't need the extra space for fish, just water stability. 


2) Alot of the predrilled tanks come with a little sump. If I want a true refugium, would you add it next to the sump in the cabinet, or take the sump out and just replace it with the refugium. 

3a) Not enough bioload? Given most of what I want are detritivores, should I really get at least a couple traditional fish to produce poop?

3b) Also i was told traditional fish provide movement in the live rock where power heads can't reach. If I don't any free swimming topside fish, will my reef be lacking here?

4) Bioballs- does the trickle water-air exposure environment provide a unique bacteria that consume nitrates better, or is this more for supersaturating this filter with the same old stander nitrogen cycle bacteria found in the rest of the tank. I ask because I read that this trickle environment is where most evaporation is lost, and with a large refugium I'm wondering if it is necessary. 

5) Sand- a local friend told me if I have time to cycle it longer, just buy normal sand, not the live sand. That it would pick up everything eventually from the live rock I seed it with. 

6) crushed coral- To help supplement calcium for the live corals and in the hopes that I wouldn't have to add as much regularly, I was wondering if I could mix crushed coral with the top layer of sand to help boost calcium levels. 

7) Say I want to wait 10 weeks before the first corals, what percent of live rock would I need of the total rock in order for full rock to be live on schedule. I'm guessing I'll be looking at 120 lbs of rock based on pure gestimation. 

8) Reverse Osmosis water- I like how you clever marine biologist limit phosphates to encourage coral growth while limiting algae growth, very clever. Still I have to ask the cheap guy questions, is RO absolutely necessary? Would I be drastically effecting my tank's good looks by not going RO water. I'm on well water in an agricultural area, so i'm betting my shallow well water has plenty of phosphates. 


9) Last question is a megaquestion- To buy the initial setup to begin cycling sand and liverock, I need?.... drilled tank, sump, sand, live rock and dead rock, sea salt, refugium with sand but without algae (algae will be added when theres actually nitrates to eat), protein skimmmer, sump pump, powerheads, metal halide light fixture for later, syringe to control unwanted coral growth, heater. Some sort of auto refiller for topping off. Am I missing anything? 

I haven't bought anything yet, looking to grab some bargains off Craigslist failures and 'move-aways'

Thanks,
Craig


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## DYHamazon (Feb 16, 2010)

just a couple things I would add to #9..
hydrometer, test kits, thermometer, liquid calcium and a buffer.
I have an RO hooked up under my sink. We added a really long hose to it that reaches across my living room right to the aquarium so its easy to add more water. I really like it.  I put it under the sink when I'm done.


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## teddyzaper (Aug 30, 2009)

sounds like your on a good start, check out 75 gallons i like them more then the 125 and 55 because of its shape.


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## conwayscience (Apr 5, 2010)

Thanks DY, glad to see a friendly response right off the bat : )

hydrometer, good catch

test kits, I have basic kits for freshwater already, is there anything marine specific that needs to be checked, can you monitor calcium concentration aside from general hardness?

liquid calcium- I hear good things about "pickling lime" sold in grocery stores for $4.95. 

buffer? you mean like the standard pH buffers they sell? Ones I've seen suggest they're bad for plants, I guess a coral isn't really a plant though. 

Thank you


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## conwayscience (Apr 5, 2010)

Found Pasfur's previous article: 

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...calcium-testing-important-every-marine-33079/

which answered my questions about buffer and calcium testing which arose from DY's recommendations.


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

get a refractometer, not a hydrometer. take a look on ebay.
as mentioned a 55 isnt the best due to its dementions, a 40 breeder or 75 gallon would make a better tank as they are wider and live rock is easier to place. personally i would buy a brand new 40 breeder ( so its scratch free ) and use your used 55 as a DIY sump/refugium combo. it is very simple to have a sump that includes an area for harvesting macro algaes. ofcourse a 125 will be more stable, as its double a 55. also keep in mind water volume is lost due to rock displacement. its good to go as big as possible for water stability, but also keep in mind the increased costs this will bring ( more salt, more lighting, more powerheads ... ) 
i would use the 55 gallon tank as a DIY sump to house your skimmer. you can also create an area for your algaes. heres a good quick read on sumps and a few examples: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/member-submitted-articles/understanding-sumps-15930/ 
Have you looked into what type of corals your going to keep? softies, lps, or sps? if your going to have a softies reef, i suggest keeping a few more fish then you'd keep in an all sps tank. this doesnt mean you can over stock but the slight nitrates seem to help softies thrive. i have seen coral only tanks as well as corals with shrimp/other inverts. i do suggest atleast 1 fish but if you do get one, choose wisely. usually a single fish in a tank calls that ITS home and only ITS home. 
I have only ever seen a few single bio balls being used wisely on a saltwater tank once. The person used the 1 bio ball as a "screen" over a draining pvc pipe on a few pipes. The suction of the water kept the ball in place and the openings in the bio ball let the water pass through. Genius :wink: but even then this person was keeping up with keeping the ball from building up debris and thats what the problem is. Bio balls ( and any "freshwater filtration" ) should be avoided. "SETUPS THAT MIMIC NATURAL FILTRATION" is what your aiming for and honestly the only thing mechanical "filtering" should be a quality skimmer and the powerheads that are providing water circulation. A 4 - 6'' sandbed and enough live rock will work great and the refugium with macro algae will only make things better. 
A saltwater sand will contain buffers and using crushed coral will just create so many nooks and crannies for detritus to settle which is exactly what you dont want and good water flow will help prevent gunk buildup. ( you basically want as little dead flowing areas as possilbe without creating a sandstorm ) Having the nooks is a similiar concept with using bio balls, you dont want this. Go with a 4 - 6'' deep sand bed, but your right it doesnt have to be live sand as the live rock will seed it in some time. 
i do not fully understand question number 7.
you are going to want a RO/DI unit, from the first drip of water. phosphates just bring algae which is just trouble. avoid it with the simple solution, use RO/DI water. tap and well waters also can contain ammonias and chlorines, nitrates, copper and other metals, and so forth. use a RO/DI unit. your going to want liquid test kits for amm, nitrite, nitrate, ph, mag, cal, alk, and temp at the bare minimum. ( price doesnt always mean everything but keep in mind a quality test kit most likely means more accurate results ) i personally like salifert and API. your going to also want to make sure your skimmer is worth its weight in gold ( and this doesnt mean buy the heaviest skimmer :wink: ) Read online reviews, ask around and even look for yourself at how they are constructed. Some skimmers are just better then others and its just that simple.

another good idea is to look in your area for a local reefing club. these clubs are great for meeting new people with tanks, learning new things and even pick up some used equipment.
welcome to the forum, feel free to ask any questions you may have.


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## conwayscience (Apr 5, 2010)

@1fish2fish,

Great recommendations, thank you. That sump article was pretty interesting as well.

What is this macro algae "harvesting" that keeps getting mentioned. I thought I want the algae to stay in the refugium. 

In addition, do I need to worry about the light producing bad algae down their where my cleaning crew can't get too. 

for #7 i found the answer in Pasfur's 180 thread. He mentioned he only used 10% live rock to start with I think. 

I don't know if I have to specialize lps sps or softies, but perferably I'd like to keep all of them. Mostly hard corals with 'tubed' soft corals dispersed. I like the softies that actively 'grab' the water with little hands. Following what my one friend in the area is doing, people advertise on craigslist will break you off a frag of one of their corals for $10. While most are probably generic pet store species, my buddy reported seeing some really cool rare ones. Basically what I'm getting at is I'll probably not know which corals till I see what I run into. 

I haven't bought the 55 gallon yet. I'd like to watch the local market a little longer and be a little more selective. Maybe i can catch a failed hobbiest at the right time and get a mega setup for cheaps. 


Thanks


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## conwayscience (Apr 5, 2010)

Might have found a tank for sale in the classifieds. I wanted to ask you guys about value and if I should be wary of using sand that has been sitting in the guy's garage in a dry aquarium.

55gallon /w stand and pre drilled with sump tank but no sump pump. 

has 2-3 inches of old sand already present. has 30 Lbs of old rock.

500 watt Metal halide light fixture

2 powerheads and heater

I think i can get it for $320, is this a good/fair/bad deal? without brand names, just assess everything as random used equipment. I'm in no particular rush to buy a tank, they seem to be readily available in classifieds.

(i'm still intimidated of a 75gallon's size) and since I don't really want that many fish, it seems like a waste of huge tank. )


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

unless there is two 250 watt halides ( =500 ) then ive never heard of a 500 watt halide fixture or bulb for that matter. it could be a no name brand or a hydroponics halide that im not familiar with but again unless its 2 separate bulbs its usually 75, 150?, 175, 200? 250, 400, 600, 1000 watt bulbs.
personally, i wouldnt buy this. its a fair deal, ( your basically paying for the light fixture ) but keep in mind its going to need two new 250 watt bulbs which can be pricey, the sand sounds suspect. sand can be washed but you just never know and id hate to see you invest so much into a tank to find there was something in the sand. 
personally i dont see whats so intimidating about a 75. its 4 feet long, just like the 55 only a 75 is wider. if a large tank really is something intimidating to you, i suggest a 40 breeder. personally i find a used 55 gallon tank would make a better sump, lets say for that 75 :wink:
and i know i already mentioned this but any luck finding a reefing club? this is something worth looking into.


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## Grimmjow (Jul 22, 2009)

conwayscience said:


> (i'm still intimidated of a 75gallon's size) and since I don't really want that many fish, it seems like a waste of huge tank. )


I think a 75 is better than a 55, pretty much the same hight and width just like 6 inches deeper which I think would really come in handy with the space lost from all the rock. I'm just saying think about it, you dont wanna really get into this tank and wish you had a bigger one.


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## conwayscience (Apr 5, 2010)

The light is 2X250. which I'm told will provide separated light beams to enhance the beauty. I haven't verified if the light has multiple time of day settings or is just on/off. Not sure yet how big a deal this is. 


I hear ya about the dept. I'm worried that with little to no fish I will have enough detritus in a larger tank. Plus I haven't seen as many 75s in the classifieds, although I am willing to wait upto a month or something looking. I'm going to some nicer fish stores this weekend that are accross the state a little bit. Might clear things up for me. Thanks again for the suggestion, I'm not arguing with it. 


NEW QUESTION: I read an article about DSBs, and these guys suggest that a deep sand bed can be potentially dangerous. The anerobic layer provides both nitrate fixation as well as sulfate conversion which can cause deadly gas pockets. Also it suggest that if I get enough sand stirering creatures to adequately stir the sand, then I run the risk that the sand stirers will eat to many of the live sand critters and interfer with part of the life cycle of the tank. Have you guys heard about alot of problems with deep sand beds?

Here is an excerpt from that article:


> In a deep sand bed, there are another type of bacteria, termed anaerobic, that require a depleted oxygen environment to function. Among these are the "denitrifying" bacteria that convert toxic nitrate into beneficial nitrogen. The primary objective of a DSB is to provide a layer of very low oxygen, termed hypoxic, where bacteria can function anaerobically. The potential harm is in creating a layer completely devoid of oxygen, termed anoxic, where "reducing" bacteria can convert sulfate into hydrogen sulfide (rotten egg smell). This and other toxins can dangerously accumulate in a sand bed that is too deep or not properly maintained.


further question-in addition to the macro algae, would you guys put deep sand in the refugium? Unless I have a spare starfish that comes out of the live rock I probably won't have or want a sand stirer down there. Should I consider some more live rock down their, or would everything just be much easier down there if I stuck with a pure algae refugium


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

you want a level 4'' to 6'' sand bed for a DSB. as long as your not in there swirling all the sand around and stirring it all up, nothing serious should be released. 

i dont understand why your complaining you WONT have enough detritus in your tank. you dont want detritus in your tank. from the few fish or even 1 you'll have more then enough will be present.
personally i have a DSB in my refuge, 1 small rock ( if even that, i wouldnt put any more then that as it could catch debris and build up gunk similiar to what bioballs do, remember refuges are slower flowing ) i have a nice size ball of chaeto growing that i prune from time to time and rotate every other day to few days. i have a few other macros growing but for looks. i dont suggest caulerpa for nutrient absorption, go with chaeto but id wait until the tank was running for a good while first. the light i suggest should be on when the tank display lights are out and off when theyre on, some even say 24 hours a day but idt this is needed ( and possibly even healthy for long term plant growth as all living things rest )


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