# Goldfish and Snails



## PaperclipGirl (Feb 7, 2010)

So now that I have a snail infestation starting in the betta tank - when the snails get bigger, can I move them to the goldfish tank or will this just be another snack?

I'm worried the betta tank (14g) with snails with starve the otocinclus unless I get some plants ASAP.

(p.s. got the snails from a failed attempt to plant anacharis)


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

That will depend on a number of things, such as...
What species of snail is this?
What species of goldfish is this? (comet or fancy?)
What is the average water temp in the goldfish tank? How does that compare to the temp in the betta tank?

I raise ram's horn snails in most of my tanks, and since early last year, also in my cold water goldfish tank. The GF tank temp goes as low as 50F in the winter time, which is fine for the goldfish... it took me 3 yrs to get the ram's horn snails from the tropical tanks to acclimate and survive in the goldfish environment. The snails now breed more, grow much larger, and live much longer in the cold water, and can tolerate the 50F in the winter. Trumpet snails, on the other hand, cannot handle the lower temp of the goldfish environment.

If you can answer those questions, then maybe we can lend you some insight.


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## kelly528 (Aug 31, 2009)

If they're pond snails or mini-ramshorns... either the goldfish won't notice them or they'll eat them. Which isn't a big deal as they can grind them with their pharyngeal teeth.

Trumpet snails however are very hard and I would be worried about the goldfish choking should they decide to try to eat them. Not sure how likely that is though.

If you're heating the tank, the snails should be fine and if your aren't... you might want to check into buying one. It will 'buffer' the temperature of the tank so it doesn't yo-yo all over the place as the temperature of your house goes up and down. The general consensus is that fancies do best in the 70s... at those temps the efficiency of the biofilter is greatly increased while not comprmising the dissolved oxygen in the water.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Goldfish should have cold water. 65F - 68F is the ideal temp for both comets and fancies... but comets tend to handle higher water temps better than fancies do. Above 70F - 72F is a danger zone for fancy goldfish.

Adding a heater to a goldfish tank is a no no.


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## kelly528 (Aug 31, 2009)

Here is a good, well-referenced, objective mythbuster from aquariacentral on why (reasonably) high temperatures have been confirmed to be undetrimental (and somewhat beneficial) to goldfish health: Myths About Goldfish and their Care

An excerpt from _Fancy Goldfish_: Care and Collecting by Richard E. Hess and Erik L. Johnson:



> The temperature at which we should house our goldfish collections is the subject of debate. While it's true that goldfish of most varieties are extremely adaptable to a wide range of temperatures, there is considerable evidence that goldfish do best in water in the mid to high seventies. This temperature range has several clear advantages.
> 
> First, it ensures that the water still carries sufficient oxygen. Water warmer than this carries far less oxygen.
> Temperatures in the seventies also ensure adequate function of the nitrifying bacteria in the biological filter. Colder temperatures jeopardize the efficiency and capability of the nitrogen cycle.
> Since goldfish are "cold-blooded" animals (poikilotherms), this temperature range ensures the proper functioning of fish metabolism and normal levels of activity without unduly increasing their oxygen demand. Different varieties of Goldfish also demonstrate different degrees of adaptability to temperature. The hardiest varieties, including Comets, Shubunkins, and Wakins, will survive winter in North America unless the pond freezes solid. The more highly selected varieties such as Orandas, Ryukins, and Ranchus may survive a temperate winter in North America when left outside, but in my experience they do this with less and less success as they mature. For further discussion of temperature, see Chapter 5.


From This online excerpt form the book.


I find that higher temps (my guys are kept at 76) increase the speed at which the bacteria break down ammonia and nitrite, not to mention it accomodates the temp preferences of most plants which aid in the reduction of nitrite. The fish are also less lethargic and more active. Furthermore my tank is at a constant temperature when controlled by the heater so I don't have to worry about stressing the fish out with heat goes off at night.


Plus, if you are filtering your tank adequately (10x the tank volume in GPH) there is no reason for a temp in the 70s to compromise dissolved oxygen.

I believe Lupin is on the heater bandwagon, perhaps he will offer his thoughts?


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Someone should tell this to Freddy, my 8 1/2 inch ryukin/oranda mix. As soon as hit temp gets up as high as 70 he starts to lay around the bottom of the tank, the red veins appear in his fins (stress) and his breathing becomes labored. He is not the only fancy goldfish I have seen this same problem with... I have seen it over and over during the past 20+ yrs. There is nobody out there who will convince me differently because 20+ yrs of experience with goldfish of all types tells me that fancy goldfish do best in cold water, comets do better in cool water but can tolerate warmer temps for a period of time.

(and no, there is no issue with the filtration in Freddy's tank, nor is there an issue with bacteria colonies at the lower temp)

In the winter months here, Freddy's tank temp goes as low as 50F, and this tends to be when he is the most active and healthiest. During summer months it can be a challenge to keep his water temp cool enough to keep him happy and active.
I have also noticed feeding differences at the different temps, and he (along with many others) tend to feed better when the temp is colder.

If Lupin disagrees with me then we'll simply have to agree to disagree.


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## kelly528 (Aug 31, 2009)

Stress is not uncommon in goldfish when the temperature changes in excess of as little as 4F, which is incidentally why I like heaters (the goldie room faces south :/ )

For what personal anecdotes are worth (nothing lol) my goldies thrive at 76 and don't seem to like the lower temps. I added a heater on the advice of people who have been in the hobby of goldies for more than 20 years. Erik & Richard, who advise it in their book are a world class Goldfish & Koi Vet and owner of Goldfish Connection respectively. I recieved similar advice from multiple members, breeders & mods on Koko's and the GAB.


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## PaperclipGirl (Feb 7, 2010)

Well - regarding the heat - I do have a heater and keep the tank at 73-74 (the lowest adjustable setting) I basically did that to keep the temp stable. At this point I don't really plan on keeping anything more fancy than a fantail which can be kept with comets and commons so I'm not sure if its really a true "fancy"

Regarding the snails - I had to wait to hear back from the seller what kind of snail it was - they said it could be a mystery snail, trap door, or pond snail (lots of help there, huh?)

As of right now they are very very small, so I cant tell which yet - either way I still wonder if my otto's will starve if they are in a 14g with snails 

I figure if I get over run with them - into the pond and into the goldies tank.


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## PaperclipGirl (Feb 7, 2010)

I'm pretty sure that even at 73 degrees I shouldn't put my otto's in the goldie tank, although there is a lot of algae there to keep them fed for years!


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## PaperclipGirl (Feb 7, 2010)

@bettababy - Is there any reason for me to be concerned about the snails in with the betta???


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

kelly528 said:


> Stress is not uncommon in goldfish when the temperature changes in excess of as little as 4F, which is incidentally why I like heaters (the goldie room faces south :/ )
> 
> For what personal anecdotes are worth (nothing lol) my goldies thrive at 76 and don't seem to like the lower temps. I added a heater on the advice of people who have been in the hobby of goldies for more than 20 years. Erik & Richard, who advise it in their book are a world class Goldfish & Koi Vet and owner of Goldfish Connection respectively. I recieved similar advice from multiple members, breeders & mods on Koko's and the GAB.


I mod GAB.lol Fancies in general do better in a temperature range of 72-78 degrees Fahrenheit. This is _in general_ though because from my observations, most of the fancy goldfish that are circulated from the trade came from fish farms especially from Asia where the climate tends to be rather warm or tropical. Indonesia, Thailand and Malaysia are main distributors of fancy goldfish that circulate widely around. Fish from such climate are more acclimated to the warm temperature which is why some tend to exhibit signs of stress as soon as the temperature dips too low for them to tolerate properly. Of course, the reverse can happen. It just so happens goldfish, like other fish, have levels of tolerance towards various temperature ranges.

I personally think though 72-78 degrees is the safest range for your goldfish, whether fancy or singletail even though singletails prefer their temp slightly cooler. It is true that the warmer the water, the less oxygen there is and note goldfish are heavy oxygen consumers. They need plenty of oxygen otherwise you'll start seeing them gasp on the surface frequently which is quite stressful to them. Like other fish, your goldfish will not appreciate too much temperature adjustments though especially when it happens all of a sudden. That's why heaters are suggested as a precaution to keep the temperature as consistently as possible.

Fantails are still categorized as fancies, sometimes intermediate between fancy and singletail as they are the hardiest fancy out there which can indeed be kept with the singletails without too much issues. Ryukins are also a force to reckon with. Their brute appearance just matches well their ability to adapt well like fantails do.

PCG, I would not suggest getting trapdoor snails. They are tricky to feed preferring decaying organic matter and algae. I can raise them in ponds but not in tanks. They are very sensitive to temperature fluctuations. Crank temp above 74 degrees and most of these snails start "hibernating" instead indicating they are very stressed.

You'll find mystery snails (_Pomacea diffusa_) the best ones to start about. They have the same temperature tolerance as goldfish do. The warmer the temp though, the faster they age. Keep it to at least 74-76 degrees.


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## kelly528 (Aug 31, 2009)

I have also had success with Nerite snails, however they feed exclusively on green dust (and brown, I believe)algae. And blanched spinach, but the goldies will devour that before they can get so much as a whiff.

Otos are liable to be eaten when the goldfish can fit them in their mouths and I don't think they'd take too kindly to all the nitrate. But happily Nerites are basically otos in a different package as they eat the same algae.

Snails of any size shouldn't be problem in a betta tank (unless of course they are overstocking the tank). Your betta might make a snack out of juvenile ramshorn and pond snails but thats about it.


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

The trouble with otos is their serrated spines can lock on a predator's mouth and may kill both fish in the process.

Nerites eat diatoms, green dust and green spot algae.


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