# Fish tank emergency please help



## New2Betas (Nov 13, 2009)

Something is going wrong with my new planted tank! I did use my old filter so have bacteria. BUT my PH as dropped to 6.2, plants are dieing, and have lost a fish, and water is very cloudy. My ALKALINITY HAS GONE FROM 180 TO 0! Just did 30% water change. HELP!


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## dorabaker (Jul 3, 2010)

did you test the nitrate, nitrite and ammonia? that info would help...


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## New2Betas (Nov 13, 2009)

Those 3 are normal.


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## kitten_penang (Mar 26, 2008)

what about filter, lighting, fertilizer and soil? when you said new.how new? a few days old or a week or longer??? cloudy water and amonia spikes in the first few weeks is normal. did you add to many fish in the new tank straight away??? if you did remove them or they will die of the ammonia if this is a week old overstocked tank.


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## New2Betas (Nov 13, 2009)

I used all the old rocks and decor. The substrate is new and so are the plants. Driftwood is old. I kept the same amount of fish that I had. What I did was just change my tank from a regular one to a planted one, but kept the same filter etc. The tank has been set up this way since last Sunday. Ammonia is 0.


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## New2Betas (Nov 13, 2009)

My shimp are now starting to die.


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## kitten_penang (Mar 26, 2008)

the substrate is most likely the problem.no matter how well you clean it it will cloud the tank and with new water, it's like cycling a new tank. do small water changes daily in the cloudy tank, if you feel a need to clean the filter.clean it with the water from the tank not pipe water.you might wanna move the fishes and shrimp to a holding tank while it clears up which will take a while.if you don't they'll probably die in there. and the lead weighs that are wrapped around the roots of the plant gotta be removed too. shrimp are very sensative to heavy metals.


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## New2Betas (Nov 13, 2009)

Great  The plants do not have any clips on them. Any idea why the plans look the way they do? They look bad!

Will the fish be fine in a few 5 gall on buckets for a while?


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## New2Betas (Nov 13, 2009)

Also wanted to add, the tank was not cloudy until the day before yesterday. It was nice and clear until then.


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## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

Normal isn't accurate enough. Do you know the exact number for Ammonia, nitrites? Do use strips? Strips are useless. You need a liquid test kit if you dont have it.

Do you use water conditioner to remove heavy metals?

How are you fish behaving? (At the surface, laying on the bottom, what?)

Actually I may have it figured out. Looking at that plant... What kind is it?
If you bought it at a pet store, it may not be an aquatic plant... so plant rots, produces ammonia.

I would remove the dying plants to a bucket, and still do your water changes.


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## New2Betas (Nov 13, 2009)

I'll re test the water to get the exact numbers (I dont use the strips)

The plants were bought from someone that we selling their tank and the plants had reproduced several times. They looked great when I bought them, and now all look dead.

Yes I use water conditioner.

The fish are acting normal wanting food everytime I walk by. All are active and happy. Their color is great. I'm filling up my old 50 gallon 1/2 way with new water and going to let that sit out for a while and move the fish over until we can figure this out.


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## kitten_penang (Mar 26, 2008)

plants will die of stress,not enough lighting or not enough nutrients.so what lights,fert do you use?? i say let the fish stay in the other tank and let the plants and water stable in the main tank before re homing them a few at a time .


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## New2Betas (Nov 13, 2009)

I have a standard 25 watt bulb, have c02 hooked up, and was told not to add any fert yet because I dont need to until after a month.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

New2Betas said:


> I have a standard 25 watt bulb, have c02 hooked up, and was told not to add any fert yet because I dont need to until after a month.


I don't know where these inaccurate ideas come from, but they still circulate around.

Fertilizer is needed by plants from the day they go in a tank. Plants need food to grow and live, and food = nutrients. In an old established tank a plant may find sufficient but not in a relatively new setup.

I agree with kitten (think it was her) that moving plants from an established tank to a new one can induce shock, due to different water parameters/conditions. I would leave the roots, remove dead leaves to avoid additional water issues, but leave the roots alone and new leaves may well appear.

I would not use CO2, here again without adequate nutrients to balance it will be of no use to the plants. And it means having more intense lighting or again it will not be of value. Read up on this in the series "A Basic Approach to the Natural Planted Aquarium" at the head of the Aquarium Plant section, Part 1 and 2 deal with nutrients, and Part 4 with lighting. I can answer any questions you may have from that.

The CO2 is one reason for the pH lowering. Another is natural biological processes in the tank. And this is likely the problem with the shrimp, they need minerals for their exoskeletons. But please don't mess with pH or hardness at this stage, it will make things worse. 

The cloudy water will clear, that is almost certainly the new substrate. Cloudy water is almost never a problem to the fish, so leave them in the tank esp as you say they are looking fine and eating normally. Which only makes me think even more that the cloudiness is due to the substrate. Not a problem.

I recommend Seachem's _Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium_ as the best complete fertilizer. Used once or twice a week (depends upon how the plants respond), it takes very little. Didn't see the tank size here, but assuming this is either your 10g or 20g, less than half a teaspoon of Flourish is one dose.

Byron.


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## New2Betas (Nov 13, 2009)

Okay, so dont move the fish, move the fish? Shrimp are dropping the flies. The fish look fine to me, but are moving their mouths a lot.

So cut back the plants, leave roots, add more light, turn of co2, and add fert?

What got me, was that the faster was clear for the first 4 days, and now is very cloudy.

I no longer have the 10 and 20 gallon. I have a 46 gallon.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

I just wanted to offer a bit of encouragement. When I first added plants to my tank, I was disheartened by how horrid they looked. They were actually melting and dying. I kept doing water changes, and always added Prime to help clear the Ammonia and Nitrites. I also kept adding the Seachem's Flourish, Comprehensive 2 times a week and left my lights on for 12 hours a day. (this varies for each tank) It took a few weeks but all of a sudden my plants started coming around. Now my tank is looking like a jungle they are so nice and thick. They are bouncing back from another little set back I had with inappropriate fish. 

All I can say, is keep up those water changes, remove the dead plant material, keep up the fertilizer and wait. Hopefully you will be telling us about new growth in a few weeks. Good luck to you.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

New2Betas said:


> Okay, so dont move the fish, move the fish? Shrimp are dropping the flies. The fish look fine to me, but are moving their mouths a lot.
> 
> So cut back the plants, leave roots, add more light, turn of co2, and add fert?
> 
> ...


If the fish are respirating (breathing) faster than normal, I wuld do a partial water change of 50% of the volume, using a good water conditioner. Turn off the CO2, that adds CO2 (obviously) which makes respiration even more difficult when there is already (possibly) something wrong, or it could be the "something" itself. It is certainly assisting in lower your pH.

The aim is to stabilize the tank, then work toward changes if any. Remove dead leaves or cut off dead parts. Leave the good leaves and roots.

On the light, what have you got? It may not need to be increased, yet. The cloudiness could be a bacterial blooom, that is harmless and will dissipate. But more likely it is the new substrate.

What is the pH and hardness of your tap water alone? And when testing pH of tap water, either let the water sit in a glass/jar overnight or shake it very vigorously to dissipate the natural CO2 so you get an accurate reading. In tap water as in the tank, CO2 lowers the pH. Once we know the tap water parameters, we can compare them with the tank.

If you have another small tank where you can move the shrimp, I would. They need harder basic water, and it is easier to move them than to mess with the water parameters which I would certainly not start doing when there are other issues more important--and fish respirating faster is a sign of this.

Byron.


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## New2Betas (Nov 13, 2009)

Alright. So I did take out all my fish and shrimp and have them in a temp tank. I did a 70% water change, took off all the dead leaves, and vacuumed the gravel. I put on my coralife light on the tank (its for a larger tank but going to use it until I can afford a smaller one). The water is not cloudy and looks good so far. When do you all think I can add my fish back in?


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## kitten_penang (Mar 26, 2008)

slowly not all at once if you cleaned the filter as well. did you remove the lead sinkers in the plants?? they tend to kill of shrimp.


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## New2Betas (Nov 13, 2009)

There were no metal clips on the plants. I did not change out the filter media. I just left it as it is.


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## kitten_penang (Mar 26, 2008)

is the water parameters ok?


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## New2Betas (Nov 13, 2009)

Ammonia: .50
Nitrate: 5.0
Nitrite: 0
PH: 7.6

Should I do a small water change to get Ammonia to 0?

Looks like my tank is recycling?

Tank has small amount of new growth and water is crystal clear.


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## dorabaker (Jul 3, 2010)

New2Betas said:


> Ammonia: .50
> Nitrate: 5.0
> Nitrite: 0
> PH: 7.6
> ...


i would have thought with ammonia at that level it would be the nitrIte that would be 5 not the nitrate


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## New2Betas (Nov 13, 2009)

nitrAte was 5.0 and nitrIte was 0.


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## dorabaker (Jul 3, 2010)

New2Betas said:


> nitrAte was 5.0 and nitrIte was 0.


ok...what fish have you got in there (if any)? sorry i havent been following this thread closely...
i guess the tank could have cycled but there's still some ammonia buildup. do that water change just in case..


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## New2Betas (Nov 13, 2009)

The fish were all taken out.


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## New2Betas (Nov 13, 2009)

So I think I know why the ammonia was .50. While looking at the tank I noticed a fish had gotten stuck in the ladder for the c02 and had died. I could not even tell what kind of fish he was to start out as. So with that cleaned up, the co2 latter taken out, 20% water change, hope that fixed the issue. Going to test water tonight so see where I'm at and will update for more advice.


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## dorabaker (Jul 3, 2010)

New2Betas said:


> So I think I know why the ammonia was .50. While looking at the tank I noticed a fish had gotten stuck in the ladder for the c02 and had died. I could not even tell what kind of fish he was to start out as. So with that cleaned up, the co2 latter taken out, 20% water change, hope that fixed the issue. Going to test water tonight so see where I'm at and will update for more advice.


no wonder the ammonia was up! hopefully it will be fine now :-D


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

Well that could certainly raise the Ammonia levels. Poor little fish.  Hopefully that is all it is and you can get your fish back in their tank soon. Keep doing the water tests and water changes and it should recover soon. Any people think I am weird for doing daily head counts. lol I am paranoid something like this will happen and I won't notice it right away.


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## dorabaker (Jul 3, 2010)

Inga said:


> Well that could certainly raise the Ammonia levels. Poor little fish.  Hopefully that is all it is and you can get your fish back in their tank soon. Keep doing the water tests and water changes and it should recover soon. Any people think I am weird for doing daily head counts. lol I am paranoid something like this will happen and I won't notice it right away.


whenever i have a shoal of fish i check the numbers like every time i look in the tank lol...i'm paranoid too dont worry


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## kitten_penang (Mar 26, 2008)

put a bag of zeolites to remove the ammonia and turn it into ammonium =)


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## New2Betas (Nov 13, 2009)

Alright, tested the water this afternoon.

Ammonia is 0
Nitrite is 0
and NitrAte is 5

Do I need to wait until the nitrAte is 0 before adding my fish back in?


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

No, you want some Nitrates. It should be alright to add your fish back in the tank but continue to monitor the water parameters.


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## kitten_penang (Mar 26, 2008)

if the readings are correct thats great news =)


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## New2Betas (Nov 13, 2009)

:-D What is a good NitrAte range? It seams like a planted tank is more work then the tank I had before! 

Should I add the co2 back in, and if so when?


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## kitten_penang (Mar 26, 2008)

in a planted tank thats not high tech balance is what we are looking for and that does not come easy


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

A low tech planted tank is easy, as compared to a high tech tank...IMHO anyway!

I never want to see a nitrate reading of anything over 40 ppm in my tanks. All my tanks are planted and my nitrates usually run anywhere from 5 to 20 ppm.


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## New2Betas (Nov 13, 2009)

So any tips on when to add the co2 back?


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

New2Betas said:


> So any tips on when to add the co2 back?


I don't use CO2, just proper lighting, liquid ferts and root tabs. 
Someone else with experience in this department will have to advise.
They should be along shortly!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

New2Betas said:


> So any tips on when to add the co2 back?


I mentioned in post #14 in this thread that I wouldn't suggest CO2 in this tank and gave my reasoning. I haven't changed my thinking since then.


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## New2Betas (Nov 13, 2009)

So what kind of tank would use co2?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

New2Betas said:


> So what kind of tank would use co2?


First one has to understand the basics. Plants need light of adequate intensity and duration, and they need nutrients. There are 17 nutrients, one of which is carbon (mainly assimilated from CO2). All this has to balance. If it does, the plants will grow (photosynthesize). The "balance" can be any several levels, from minimal (low-tech or natural) up to high-tech. The level you want to maintain will usually depend upon your idea of what a planted tank should look like. In the most basic of terms, my tanks are low-tech; Takashi Amano's are very high-tech, as are the tanks commonly called Dutch Aquarium, where plants are the main focus and some do not even have fish.

We know that in their habitat, most of the plants we keep use fairly low light; many never see the direct sun. They grow relatively slowly, but they are healthy and growing. My plants are like that. The growth is "slow" though sometimes I find it hard to imagine faster growth; I know I certainly do not want faster growth because the plants are serving their purpose very well at the rate they now grow. Increasing light allows for faster growth. But only if the nutrients are also increased in balance. This is where CO2 comes in.

Amano's method uses very high light (4-5 times what I use), CO2 diffusion, and copious amounts of fertilizer added every day, not just once or twice a week as in my tanks. The plants look lovely in both, as far as I'm concerned. But the high-tech approach requires a lot more investment in money and maintenance. Using fertilizers daily costs money, as does the CO2, and the increased lighting will really raise your hydro bill. So it comes down to the "look" you want and what you are prepared to invest in cost (initial and operating) and maintenance.

The light is the big reason I do not advocate high-tech. This affects the fish. Most of the fish we maintain in planted tanks occur in very dimly-lit waters. This is what they are used to. Given the option in a large aquarium, such fish will choose the shaded areas. I see this all the time in my tanks. As just one example, cardinal tetra have what Baensch/Riehl term a light phobia; they will always be under plants in the lower third of the aquarium, and because they choose this due to their natural instincts, it means they will be healthier. We can be guaranteed of that. I prefer going down that road, of providing the fish with as natural as environment as I can, because I believe (and my 20 years experience corroborates this) that the fish will be healthier and live more normal lives. There's more to this than just light: the filtration (water flow) is critical, as are water parameters, plants, wood, etc. My cardinals which also do not like moving water, remain in the right half of the aquarium at the opposite side from where the outflow from the filter is placed. Some of the Corydoras species prefer water flow and always settle at the end under the filter outflow; other species come from quieter streams and have settled further down the tank under wood where the water is still. Knowing these preferences for each species will mean a more successful community tank if the fish's needs are met.

A bit wordy, but this is to me a very important aspect of maintaining an aquarium that is healthy and successful.

Byron.


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## New2Betas (Nov 13, 2009)

I really appreciate everything you are trying to tell me. I'm very new to this since I had an all fake aquarium before. I just posted this on another site before I got an e-mail about your post. But this is what I have as of now.

I have a 46 gallon bow front
Marineland Bio-Wheel Power Filter Penguin 350 (says its for up to a 70 gallon tank)
Adjustable heater, I keep it at 80*
Right now I have a coralife light on the tank that is much too big. I have a standard 25 watt light I would love to use instead, but worried about changing it over.
I have the light on a timer from 8am to 10pm
Lots of drift wood
I have hard water
If I remember correctly I used Floramax Premium Aquarium Substrate from my LFS for $30 and put a larger polished gravel on top of that.
Added Flora fertilizer plant tablets next to plants (10)
Moss balls and 3 kinds of plants. Have no idea what they are though.
2 angel fish, 5 pristella tetra, 3, pepper cory, 2 cardinal tetra, 3 bolivian ram, rainbow shark, bushynose pleco, and 5 Japanese Marsh shrimp

My 2 cardinals were given to me by someone that was moving, he things they are about 2 years old. My rainbow shark is a snob and has a bit of PMS since being moved from the temp tank back to this one and has been chasing the tetras. It would be nice if my fish would just mind their own biz when I want to watch them, but when they see me they think its time to eat and will watch my every move.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

That's quite a nice aquascape; with a few more plants it would be really outstanding, it has good "bones." Nice work. I agree the plants are suffering, it is nutrients but not CO2. The substrate fert tabs will help the rooted plants in the back (can't tell from the photo is the grass-like plants are Vallisneria, Sagittaria or Onion Plant). A good liquid fert should be added once a week and I think you would see quite an improvement in the plant colour. I recommend Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive [make sure it is the Comprehensive, they make several products in the Flourish line] once a week; it doesn't take much, 2.5 ml (1/2 a teaspoon) treats 30g. If once a week doesn't show much improvement after 2-3 weeks, use it twice a week.

A word on the temp, 80F is quite high for the fish you have (angels are fine at that but also lower which would suit the others). Around 77-78F will work, and that can help the plants. My plants in the warm tank (80F) always look less attractive than the same in 77-78F. Makes quite a difference, and some of your fish would be better lower too.

The plants closest to the front in the middle I'm not sure, but may not be aquatic. Keep an eye on them, if they start to rot pull them out. For more plants, have a look at the pygmy chain sword, it would do well in that aquascape. And if you want something on the wood, Anubias barteri var. nana would be good. Click on the shaded names to see the plant's profile.

Byron.


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## New2Betas (Nov 13, 2009)

Wonderful, thank you so much! The plants in the front middle are the only ones that are doing really well. They have grown 4 new leaves just in the last 48 hours. Here's a close up of the left side of the tank. The laves closer to the ground are brand new. I also just now lowered the heater level. I have to play with it a bit to get it at the right temp. Maybe thats why my fish are so active. lol


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Still not sure about those plants, I'll have to dig out some of my reference books later. Wanted to respond now, then I have a couple errands to run.

The lower temp will be easier on the fish. The higher the temp the less oxygen water can hold, so respiration is more difficult. If they need warm temps, that's different; but when they have ranges it is best to be in the middle to lower end for each fish species. We have temp ranges in our profiles.


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## New2Betas (Nov 13, 2009)

I think those are Amazon Swords I broke them up from one large clump and scattered them around the front. I do have 1 onion plant in there, in the right corner. And I think the others might be Chilensis?


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