# Will it be too many fish in my tank?



## als1996 (Nov 22, 2010)

I'm soon going to be adding fish into a freshwater planted tank and I already have a plan. 6 Black Skirt Tetras, 4 Corydoras(Probably Bronze or False Julli), 2 Dwarf Gourami, and 1 Otocinclus. Is that too many or just right for 20 gallons. If it's just right could I fit 2-4 fish like platies. If not, can you recommend what you think could fit along with the rest of the fish?


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## als1996 (Nov 22, 2010)

Note my plan may change such as having 3 platies instead of the Corydoras.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

First question is, what are your water parameters? The hardness and pH of your source water (presumably tap water) are very important as not all fish can manage in any type of water. For instance, livebearers (platies, etc) require basic harder water than the other fish you mention, which prefer soft slightly acidic water but can manage in slightly basic water.

And as I see you joined this month, may I welcome you to Tropical Fish Keeping forum.

Byron.


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## als1996 (Nov 22, 2010)

The tank is at 6.8-7.2 at PH and hardness I'm not sure


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## als1996 (Nov 22, 2010)

Never mind, its in the 6.5-7.0 range so platies are out of the question. But, are there any other fish that could fit with the fish I listed? I want to stick away from real fragile fish like neons and rummynoses.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

als1996 said:


> The tank is at 6.8-7.2 at PH and hardness I'm not sure


I would not suggest any livebearer; chances are the hardness is low, soft water, and long-term they will not do as well. The fish you now have are fine with this pH, very much so. So now to your original question.

Some fish are shoaling fish, meaning they occur in large groups in nature and must be kept in a group in an aquarium or they can be under stress which weakens their immune system and brings on various health issues they would not otherwise have. All the tetra should be in groups of 6 (or more, space permitting). 

Corys do best in a group of 5, if you want more than one species 3 of each species works fine, and in a 20g you can have 6-7 corys. 

Otocinclus are also shoaling, and a group of 3 minimum works best; single fish often waste away on their own; and it is important to have algae in the tank when they are added or they can starve. They will learn to eat from sinking foods in time. They only eat common green or brown algae.

Dwarf gourami have issues; in a 20g a male/female pair will work but 2 males would be aggressive. We have fish profiles here, second tab from the left in the blue bar at the top, or click on the shaded name in posts. Check out the profile of this fish to see what I'm referring to. Also check the other fish profiles for more info.

Black skirt tetra get largish, 2.5 to even 3 inches, and there isn't much room in a 20g. A smaller tetra would perhaps be worth considering, as it will allow you more "room" in terms of water conditions.

Byron.


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## als1996 (Nov 22, 2010)

Would 6 black neon tetras do well? If not, what do you recommend with my water parameters? As well I do plan to get a male/female pair of dwarf gourami. Also, I'm worried to get 6 corys as some have said that it's too much so maybe pygmy cories. I just think my LFS won't have them and this is not Petco or Petsmart it's an aquarium based store. They are very well stocked.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

als1996 said:


> Would 6 black neon tetras do well?


Yes, they would suit the tank better. You could add some neon tetra too, with your pH, for more colour; although not directly related to the so-called black neon tetra, they do look nice together; six of each. Might not with the gourami though...have you seen the Honey Gourami?


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## als1996 (Nov 22, 2010)

Byron said:


> Yes, they would suit the tank better. You could add some neon tetra too, with your pH, for more colour; although not directly related to the so-called black neon tetra, they do look nice together; six of each. Might not with the gourami though...have you seen the Honey Gourami?


Yes. I have considered a pair of honey gourami. Are there any other tetras that maybe a bit more hardy that I could put in my tank. I used to have neon tetras in my old tank, I had 6 then 3 died of and the last 3 died a month ago. I'm restarting my tank here and I've already went through the fishless cycle. As well will 6 corys not overstock with the rest of the fish I want if I go with my modified plan thanks to you it will be 6 black neons, 3 otos and 2 honey gouramis. Also, can I still consider a pair of dwarf gouramis rather than a pair of honey gouramis? I thank you for your help. I'm learning.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

als1996 said:


> Yes. I have considered a pair of honey gourami. Are there any other tetras that maybe a bit more hardy that I could put in my tank. I used to have neon tetras in my old tank, I had 6 then 3 died of and the last 3 died a month ago. I'm restarting my tank here and I've already went through the fishless cycle. As well will 6 corys not overstock with the rest of the fish I want if I go with my modified plan thanks to you it will be 6 black neons, 3 otos and 2 honey gouramis. Also, can I still consider a pair of dwarf gouramis rather than a pair of honey gouramis? I thank you for your help. I'm learning.


Provided you can get a male/female pair of dwarf gourami, they will work (but not with other gourami); they still have health issues though as noted in our profile.

As for the tetra, have a look through our profiles under characins. Look for species that are less active [this means they will be better suited to a 20g which is not a lot of space], share same water parameters as you have, and remain small/medium.

Stocking depends upon a number of factors beside tank size and number of fish. The behaviours of the fish, where they "hang out" in the aquarium, their water requirements, etc. Six bottom fish and six middle fish and six surface fish is better than 18 middle fish which would be way too many unless they were "dwarf" species. The fish themselves are important, not just the numbers.

Byron.


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## als1996 (Nov 22, 2010)

Thanks for all your help, it's been a tough time figuring all this out, I'll get 6 black neons, 2 honey or dwarf gouramis(can't decide yet), 3 otos, and 6 corydoras. If their is still room I might consider more fish. Quick question, will it matter for instance I see one healthy red male dwarf gourami and one healthy blue female dwarf gourami? Or is it only okay if the dwarfs are the same color variation?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

als1996 said:


> Thanks for all your help, it's been a tough time figuring all this out, I'll get 6 black neons, 2 honey or dwarf gouramis(can't decide yet), 3 otos, and 6 corydoras. If their is still room I might consider more fish. Quick question, will it matter for instance I see one healthy red male dwarf gourami and one healthy blue female dwarf gourami? Or is it only okay if the dwarfs are the same color variation?


The various morphs of the Dwarf Gourami are all the same species, so nothing will matter. If they should spawn, I've no idea what may result:shock:.

Sounds good. On the corys, you can have 3 of one species and 3 of another, that makes it more interesting, as some of them are quite "comical."


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## als1996 (Nov 22, 2010)

Yeah, that would be cool if they do I might post a picture on here. I might consider the 3 of each corydoras idea. Thanks for all your help. Quick question, which are hardier and better starting of a tank black neon tetras or lemon tetras.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

als1996 said:


> Yeah, that would be cool if they do I might post a picture on here. I might consider the 3 of each corydoras idea. Thanks for all your help. Quick question, which are hardier and better starting of a tank black neon tetras or lemon tetras.


If its planted, won't matter which.


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## als1996 (Nov 22, 2010)

Yes, it is planted, do black neons need subdued lighting. Just wondering.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

als1996 said:


> Yes, it is planted, do black neons need subdued lighting. Just wondering.


Yes, which is to say not brighter than necessary for the plants; plus some floating plants helps. All tetra with few exceptions come from quiet dimly-lit streams and flooded forest.


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## als1996 (Nov 22, 2010)

would a piece of tinfoil under the lights provide sufficent subdued lighting


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

als1996 said:


> would a piece of tinfoil under the lights provide sufficent subdued lighting


With the right sort of tube/bulb it won't be that bright. Light has to get through for the plants; you just don't want it m,ore than necessary for that purpose. Floating plants, which can be specific floating plant species or stem plants allowed to float, are ideal; fish see more relaxed when they have floating cover.


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## als1996 (Nov 22, 2010)

I put the piece of tinfoil around the center of the light since there aren't many plants there. Well actually none, the sides get light as that is where the most plants are. But, if not, what are good floating plants that are cheap. My friend has recommended bannanaplant. But, I think thats not a floating plant. I'm thinking water sprite. If I do get that, how many should I get?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

als1996 said:


> I put the piece of tinfoil around the center of the light since there aren't many plants there. Well actually none, the sides get light as that is where the most plants are. But, if not, what are good floating plants that are cheap. My friend has recommended bannanaplant. But, I think thats not a floating plant. I'm thinking water sprite. If I do get that, how many should I get?


Banana plant will (if it lives) send leaves to the surface, but this plant is not easy and while some have luck with it many others do not; it also from what I've read from experts rarely lasts beyond a year.

Water Sprite is incredible. One plant is all you'll need. Once established, it produces numerous daughter plants on several of the leaves, and these can be removed as new plants. I toss out plants almost every week from my Asian tanks where I have this floating, and the original plant I bought some 12 years ago and have had plants ever since.

Byron.


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## als1996 (Nov 22, 2010)

Byron said:


> Banana plant will (if it lives) send leaves to the surface, but this plant is not easy and while some have luck with it many others do not; it also from what I've read from experts rarely lasts beyond a year.
> 
> Water Sprite is incredible. One plant is all you'll need. Once established, it produces numerous daughter plants on several of the leaves, and these can be removed as new plants. I toss out plants almost every week from my Asian tanks where I have this floating, and the original plant I bought some 12 years ago and have had plants ever since.
> 
> Byron.


Thanks a lot for your help. I will probably get the water sprite. My tank is ready with a PH of around 6.5, so it's time to get the black neon tetras. Tomorrow is the day. Just a quick final question are Black Neon Tetras the kind of tetras that like an odd number group.


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

You really don't need to reduce the light. I would have alot more fish, but then again thats just me. If its your first tank its a good start. You need at least 6 tetras. They can't count higher then six so the number is up to you;-).


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## als1996 (Nov 22, 2010)

Mikaila31 said:


> You need at least 6 tetras. They can't count higher then six so the number is up to you;-).


Oh Yeah, I know that tetras need at least 6. I'm asking about if black neons or lemons are kind of fish that like an odd number like 7. I read that some tetras like odd number groups.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

als1996 said:


> Oh Yeah, I know that tetras need at least 6. I'm asking about if black neons or lemons are kind of fish that like an odd number like 7. I read that some tetras like odd number groups.


I don't know where that came from, I've seen it mentioned here from time to time but I've never found any "source." The fish don't care if the number is even or odd, their only issue would be the more the merrier.

Some fish are better in a certain ratio for reasons of behaviour particularly during spawning. In some species the males drive the females hard, and if there are more males than females this can exhaust the females to the point that they become ill and die. In these cases, 1 male to 2 females, or 2 males to 3-4 females, etc. works better, but the end number being odd or even makes no difference.

For many of the tetra telling male and female is difficult until the fish are mature and the females are noticeably rounder. A group of 6 or more will usually contain a mix. I usually get odd numbered groups, but for no other reason than personal preference. In a vase, 3 flowers are better than 2, and 5 than 4, etc. But this is my psychological quirk.:lol:

Byron.


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## als1996 (Nov 22, 2010)

thanks, I'm getting my first fish group of fish today 8 lemons. But, if there are at least 6 that's good too. And if they don't have enough lemons or the lemons aren't healthy. I have a backup plan. I'll get either Flame, Pristella, Silvertip, or Penguin Tetras.:-?


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## als1996 (Nov 22, 2010)

I just made a wonderful addition to my tank. 7 Pristella Tetras. Sadly, the Black Neons were sick and the Lemon Tetras weren't at the LFS. But, never fear the pristellas were available and next on my list. I also got a water sprite and now it's floating around in the tank.:-D I'll try to post a picture of the fish soon.


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## als1996 (Nov 22, 2010)

I know fish take around a day getting used to the tank. But, my pristella tetras have just been in a group around the bottom of a plant is that normal or maybe the water current is too fast.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

als1996 said:


> I know fish take around a day getting used to the tank. But, my pristella tetras have just been in a group around the bottom of a plant is that normal or maybe the water current is too fast.


Pristella tend to like currents; my shoal in my 115g remain at the end of the filter outflow, facing into it, almost constantly--except when food is offered elsewhere:lol:. Of course, if it's a torrent it may be too much, fish have to work harder the more current they are in, since they can't "stand still" in moving water. But I suspect it is just their getting used to the new environment; most shoaling fish will remain in a close group together when introduced to a different tank, and remaining among the plants indicates they feel more secure there.


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## als1996 (Nov 22, 2010)

I see. I plan to add either corydoras or two gouramis around the weekend. The thing is, I was mostly paying attention to the tetras in the LFS today. But, I only really noticed some kind of cory that's called green something and maybe pygmy cories. Plus if my pristellas like staying at the bottom it'll get crowded with corys. What is a good top dwelling fish with the parameters of tetras. No hatchetfish though.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

als1996 said:


> I see. I plan to add either corydoras or two gouramis around the weekend. The thing is, I was mostly paying attention to the tetras in the LFS today. But, I only really noticed some kind of cory that's called green something and maybe pygmy cories. Plus if my pristellas like staying at the bottom it'll get crowded with corys. What is a good top dwelling fish with the parameters of tetras. No hatchetfish though.


Assuming it is just initial reaction, the Pristella will not remain near the substratel they tend to swim mid-water. The green cory could be Corydoras aeneus, or it may be Brochis splendens. They look "identical" at first glance but the Brochis is larger and higher and has a dorsal that extends further along the back. Check the profiles for photos and other info. Pygmy corys are somewhat sensitive to water parameters and conditions, and I strongly advise only acquiring them after the tank is established (not just cycled, but established, say 2 months).

Top fish are not abundant. I have Nannostomus beckfordi, the most commonly-seen pencilfish, in my 115g and they tend to spend most of their time in the upper half of the tank. They must have plants as they spend the day picking over plant leaves for bits of food. The display of the males is fascinating. Check out the profile for photos, and note the info on behaviour. Although a pencilfish, these guys can be a bit feisty.


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## als1996 (Nov 22, 2010)

Byron said:


> Assuming it is just initial reaction, the Pristella will not remain near the substratel they tend to swim mid-water. The green cory could be Corydoras aeneus, or it may be Brochis splendens. They look "identical" at first glance but the Brochis is larger and higher and has a dorsal that extends further along the back. Check the profiles for photos and other info. Pygmy corys are somewhat sensitive to water parameters and conditions, and I strongly advise only acquiring them after the tank is established (not just cycled, but established, say 2 months).
> 
> Top fish are not abundant. I have Nannostomus beckfordi, the most commonly-seen pencilfish, in my 115g and they tend to spend most of their time in the upper half of the tank. They must have plants as they spend the day picking over plant leaves for bits of food. The display of the males is fascinating. Check out the profile for photos, and note the info on behaviour. Although a pencilfish, these guys can be a bit feisty.


It could be a Bronze Cory as it looks like it, but it was labeled something else. But, that doesn't matter. I won't try to do with a pencilfish. I'll update on the Pristellas after a couple days. So, to be on the safe side the next fish will be 2 gouramis. Question, do honey gourami males get agressive at each other or are they more peaceful?
Happy Thanksgiving!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

als1996 said:


> It could be a Bronze Cory as it looks like it, but it was labeled something else. But, that doesn't matter. I won't try to do with a pencilfish. I'll update on the Pristellas after a couple days. So, to be on the safe side the next fish will be 2 gouramis. Question, do honey gourami males get agressive at each other or are they more peaceful?
> Happy Thanksgiving!


Honey Gourami are better suited to groups, check what it says about this in the profile.

The common C. aeneus goes under "common" names like Bronze Cory, Green Cory, but unfortunately the Brochis also is seen under the same names.


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## als1996 (Nov 22, 2010)

You were right, this morning I came to the tank and they were all swimming slowly around a plan like in nightime mode. But, when I turned the light on, they became more active. Not, more active, but slightly more. So far, one is obsessed with the cherry hedge, whenever the group comes by it, it runs off and gets under it for one second and runs off. The whole group is intrigued by the sides of the tank. They're like mirrors, so on the inside they see a reflection but on the other side the owner can see through it. That's how the tank is made. They are obsessed with those reflections of theirs. They like the right side of the tank a lot. You were right about the feeding too, they went bezerk. Do pristellas like to eat tubifex worms?


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## als1996 (Nov 22, 2010)

I was wondering. I was looking at the tropical fish profiles, and I noticed the Bolivian Ram. Would it be okay to have 1 bolivian ram rather than 2 gourami. I really like the look of Bolivian Rams.


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## als1996 (Nov 22, 2010)

But if Honey Gourami are better suited in a group, so how many 3, 4?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Responding to questions from the last 3 posts. Most fish will eat any type of small worms (tubifex, bloodworms, microworms, blackworms) which can be bought frozen and some stores carry live cultures. Worms shoud not be fed daily, but only sparingly, a couple times a week.

One Bolivian Ram will work in your 20g, as mentioned in our profile.

In a 20g I would say 3 Honey Gourami; males can get territorial and females should have space to distance themselves.


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

The fish CAN see through the glass, just like you can. Unless you have some super fancy tank then its just regular glass and reflects like regular glass.


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## als1996 (Nov 22, 2010)

I'm planning to get the cory cats or honey gouramis this weekend. But, I read that it's better to introduce the corys 3 at a time. Or can I put 6 at the same time. If it's 3 at a time, I might grab 3 with 3 honey gouramis.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

als1996 said:


> I'm planning to get the cory cats or honey gouramis this weekend. But, I read that it's better to introduce the corys 3 at a time. Or can I put 6 at the same time. If it's 3 at a time, I might grab 3 with 3 honey gouramis.


Two points here.

Six corys at the same time would be better solely from their perspective; when moved to a new environment the more the better to ease stress and avoid issues.

But the other important point, is the state of the tank. In an established tank, no issues adding several fish. If this is a fairly new tank, consider the effect of increasing the bioload and keep additions of fish small to avoid ammonia spikes the bacteria/plants can't handle. With live plants, this is much less an issue, but I still counsel few rather than many fish at one time.

So, 3 corys now and 3 later, fine. Or perhaps, the gourami now, and the 6 corys later.

Byron.


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## als1996 (Nov 22, 2010)

I tested my water today and the good news there is no ammonia and nitrites. The bad news is the ph is 7.2. But, the pristellas are able to live in both acidic and alkaline as I read in there profile. So, I came back from my LFS with 6 platies instead of 3 honey gourami. 3 blue, 3 red.


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