# Nubster's 75g log



## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Figured might as well keep a log. I like reading others and hope others will enjoy reading mine. I have been keeping fish for a while but this will be my first true community tank. I plan on making it a fairly natural setup as far as decor. I will also be planting the tank as soon as I find a decent source for plants. Not sure on what I plan to stock with yet, I know I want cory cats, shrimp, and large schools of small fish. Still lots to figure out but that's part of the fun I think. I am in the process of cycling now, using the fishless shrimp cycle as I always do. Ammonia last night was off the chart which is exciting, hoping nitrates and nitrites will show soon. I know some don't like the idea, but I did seed with some gravel from a friends tank so hopefully the cycle will not take as long as they often do. Anyways...that's about it. I'll give a little break down of what I am using and get some pics up as soon as I clean the outside of the glass.

Tank - 75g with glass top, sides and back painted black.
Lighting - cheap shop lights with four 32watt GE Plant and Aquarium bulbs.
Substrate - at the moment there is 40 pounds of Petco brand black sand and I have 40 more pounds of Tahitian Moon sand on the way.
Filtration -AquaClear 110 with two foam blocks.
Heating - Ebo Jager 200watt 

I think that is it. Not much on water parameters at this point. Temp is around 78, ammonia off the chart, pH is 7.6, no idea on hardness...need to get that checked.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Lights...quick question. How long will they last before needing replaced? The ones I have more than a year of use on them. Will they be ok to use for plants? They seem just as bright now as they did when I got them.

Also, they are the GE Plant and Aquarium bulbs commonly found at Wal-Mart. How do these compare to the 6500k daylight bulbs also at Wal-Mart? The daylight bulbs come in a pack of two for around $6 whereas the Plant and Aquraium bulbs are about $7 each. Naturally, if my lights need replaced, I'd like to use the less expensive ones or at least a combo of the cheap and expensive bulbs.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)




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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I will assume the tubes are T8. The "T" number refers to the tube's diameter in 8ths of an inch. So a T8 is 8/8 or 1 inch diameter. A T12, the older and thicker tubes, is 12/8 of an inch diameter. T8 are better because they are somewhat more energy efficient, so they produce the same or slightly more intensity with less energy.

T8 tend to "give out" after 12-18 months. While you may not notice this, a light meter would show a drastic decline in intensity. And when you replace the tubes, you will see a difference. The tube will continue to "light" long after this, but the light is so weak it is almost useless. And at some point, usually 12 months or shortly thereafter depending upon the way the tube was manufactured, the light will have decreased so much the plants are no longer able to photosynthesize fully, and then algae takes advantage of the weaker light and will proliferate.

As to which type, the "daylight" 6500K tubes are better. They will produce a light close to mid-day sun, so fish and plant colours will be true. You will see a real difference, from the "purplish" hue of the aquarium/plant tubes (which are high in the red and blue wavelengths). It may take some getting used to, but the daylight tubes are better.

But here we come to another issue, too much light. Are the 4 tubes full length, i.e., 48-inch tubes? Four of these over a 75g tank is too many; only two tubes will be required, if they are 48-inch tubes. If your fixture takes smaller length tubes, that is different, and may be fine.

By the way, you might want to give a read of the article series "A Basic Approach to the Natural Planted Aquarium" at the head of the Aquarium Plants section of the forum.

Byron.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Actually the current tubes are T5 I believe...32 watts each. But I guess that is a mute point as it seems they need replaced anyways. The new tubes I looked at yesterday are T8 and 40 watts each. And yes, they are full length 48" bulbs. I have the four tubes because originally the lights were over a heavily planted dart frog setup and the plants did very well...to well in fact as I was trimming sometimes twice a week. I'll see if I can find some pics of that setup. I'll reduce the lighting though as suggested...I remember when I had bichirs in this tank a couple years ago the two bulbs were pretty dim, even when brand new.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Here is a quick one from the PDF setup I had...


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Nubster said:


> Actually the current tubes are T5 I believe...32 watts each. But I guess that is a mute point as it seems they need replaced anyways. The new tubes I looked at yesterday are T8 and 40 watts each. And yes, they are full length 48" bulbs. I have the four tubes because originally the lights were over a heavily planted dart frog setup and the plants did very well...to well in fact as I was trimming sometimes twice a week. I'll see if I can find some pics of that setup. I'll reduce the lighting though as suggested...I remember when I had bichirs in this tank a couple years ago the two bulbs were pretty dim, even when brand new.


T5 usually requires different fixtures; they are not interchangeable with T8/T12. However, I have seen tubes made smaller than T8, I think they were T6 but may have been T5, and made for the same fixture (T8 or "regular" fluorescent). If you have shop lights it is almost certainly going to be regular, and they will take regular tubes (T8). And T8 used to be 40w but manufacturers are now making them in 32w; my Phillips Daylight Deluxe 48-inch tubes are 32w. So this is probably what you have, T8 fixtures. The 32w T8 tubes will work fine, and use less energy (electricity) compared to the 40w.

I would reduce to two tubes if possible. Then buy the daylight 6500K, made by Phillips, Sylvania, GE. These are inexpensive by comparison to fish store "aquarium" tubes.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

They could be T8. They are much thinner than the standard T8 so that is why I was thinking they were T5 or something other than T8's. It says 32 watts on the bulb and wide spectrum. They were labeled as Aquarium and Plant bulbs when I bought them a while back. I'll be replacing them soon. I'll start with two and see how that does. My fixtures don't require both bulbs so if two isn't enough I can add a third if needed.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Now that I've seen the photos. Nice setup, I like amphibian terrariums and vivariums. That light looks pretty good spectrum-wise. I'd like to see the spectrum graph though to be sure, can you find it and post it or a link? I just did a search and couldn't track down info, other than retailers, although some references to the colour being 3050K swhich is warm and needs some cool to balance. One of these with one of the daylight might work well. I have a combo (not these) on my dual-tube tanks.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

I'll see what I can find. The packaging doesn't even say...just states it is "wide spectrum". I wonder if they are not just 6500k lights repackaged as Plant and Aquarium bulbs so that they can charge twice as much to the unsuspecting buyer. What ever they are...they seem to work. I can't imagine they are twice as good as the regular 6500k bulbs though. I am going to start with those and see what happens. If I decide to add that third bulb maybe I'll make it one of those plant bulbs.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Well...looks like it's just a case of marketing. According to this chart, the bulbs are in fact just 6500k.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

The specs in your last post are for the Daylight tube, the one I originally suggested would work. The "GE Plant and Aquarium" tube you initially mentioned is a different tube, and according to what I did find it has a colour temp of 3500K which is much different. I would assume it is much less intensity too; every one of the so-called plant/aqwuarium tubes I have ever seen was half the intensity of the full spectrum/daylight type.

Wide spectrum is not full spectrum. The daylight is closer to full.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Well...I do have the plant and aquarium bulbs. I took the model number directly off the bulb and searched it and found that. The F32T8/D/ECO is on my bulb. They were packaged as plant and aquarium bulbs at Wal-Mart. Regardless...I'll be grabbing some 6500k bulbs next time I am in town and hopefully a few plants too if my LFS has some stuff that isn't total rubbish and/or insanely priced.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Nubster said:


> Well...I do have the plant and aquarium bulbs. I took the model number directly off the bulb and searched it and found that. The F32T8/D/ECO is on my bulb. They were packaged as plant and aquarium bulbs at Wal-Mart. Regardless...I'll be grabbing some 6500k bulbs next time I am in town and hopefully a few plants too if my LFS has some stuff that isn't total rubbish and/or insanely priced.


It may be that the daylight tube got in the aquarium/plant package? Photos can be deceptive, but I mentioned previously that the light in the photos looked good, and it looks a lot more like 6500K than 3500K, so that makes sense.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Its quite possible. But yeah...I'm sold on the 6500k lights. I am hoping to grab some new bulbs and plants tomorrow...hopefully some fish this weekend.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Got a little aquascaping done today...still pretty bare but hopefully I can get some more driftwood in there and some plants this week. Not sure why it look hazy...might be the lights needing replaced, might be the water needing polished, could be the inside of the glass needs scrubbed. I'd kinda like to build up the right side...make it kinda cliff like with some nooks and crannies. Leave the center open except for plants...maybe some smaller wood pieces, and the left is alright...might try to find a branchy piece of wood to stick in that area for plants to grow up through and around...the rocks form a cave area with a few entrances. I am open to suggestions too so don't be shy.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Nubster said:


> Got a little aquascaping done today...still pretty bare but hopefully I can get some more driftwood in there and some plants this week. Not sure why it look hazy...might be the lights needing replaced, might be the water needing polished, could be the inside of the glass needs scrubbed. I'd kinda like to build up the right side...make it kinda cliff like with some nooks and crannies. Leave the center open except for plants...maybe some smaller wood pieces, and the left is alright...might try to find a branchy piece of wood to stick in that area for plants to grow up through and around...the rocks form a cave area with a few entrances. I am open to suggestions too so don't be shy.


"Haze" or cloudiness is normal in new tanks. It has several causes, but the main thing is, do not try to fix it. Water clarifiers are toxic to fish, and even though no fish are present yet, you don't want toxins in the water. And if it is a bacterial bloom, which is likely, a water change will worsen it; you can read more on this in my article on bacteria in the Freshwater Article section of the forum.

Sometimes my new setups clear in a few days, sometimes it takes a few weeks.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Yeah...I certainly wouldn't use any chemicals to fix it. I also don't want to do water changes now and set back my cycle. The ammonia is pretty low at this point at .5ppm. I took the shrimp out yesterday but I may need to put it back in. That or I need to head over to an Ace hardware and see if I can get some pure ammonia to keep feeding my little bacteria buddies. I want to make sure I have a high enough bacteria count so I can add a small school of fish (6-7) all at once.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Nubster said:


> Yeah...I certainly wouldn't use any chemicals to fix it. I also don't want to do water changes now and set back my cycle. The ammonia is pretty low at this point at .5ppm. I took the shrimp out yesterday but I may need to put it back in. That or I need to head over to an Ace hardware and see if I can get some pure ammonia to keep feeding my little bacteria buddies. I want to make sure I have a high enough bacteria count so I can add a small school of fish (6-7) all at once.


I believe plants are intended...if so, select some plants and plant it. Forget the ammonia. Once there are some plants, introduce a few small fish, something you want but that is not super sensitive. The plants assimilate the ammonia as ammonium and you will not even notice a "cycle." Fast growing plants are best, swords, Vallisneria, stem plants and floating plants work well.


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## Calmwaters (Sep 2, 2009)

I agree with Byron add lots of plants then add fish. If you are interested in buying plants on line alot of us use sweetaquatics.com and aquariumplants.com. I have used both and have been very pleased with both places sweetaquatics is a little cheaper but sometimes they can take a while to hip them.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Yeah...plants for sure. Anyone have experience buying from ebay? There are loads of nice looking, inexpensive plants that are coming from Malaysia but I just wonder how well the plants ship. Sad that they can offer a huge bunch of plants for five bucks and free shipping but the same thing here will cost $12-15 and $5 shipping.


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## Calmwaters (Sep 2, 2009)

I have bought plants on ebay but mostly from sellers here in the US I did accidently buy a Moss Ball from Tawain and ot was ok when it got here but it took about 2 weeks I don't think alot of other plants would do well for that long without light. At sweetaquatics.com you can get a bulk plant package rangeing from $12.00-$33.00 and shipping is normally less than $12.00.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Thanks...I did a test order from a place in Malaysia. Shipping was free and the plant was only a few dollars. If it works out it will be great because this guy has some pretty awesome stuff. My experience has been at least ordering from China, not plants but general merchandise, my orders arrive quicker from there than if I order from a place two states over from me...lol...sad but true. Otherwise, I'm heading in to town now so if that's a bust I'll probably order from one of the places you mentioned earlier or from someone in the classifieds.


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## Calmwaters (Sep 2, 2009)

Good luck and don't forget we want pictures when you get it all done.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

For sure. Photography is another hobby so hopefully I can get some pics later that do both hobbies some justice.

I did manage to grab a few plants today...a med sized Amazon Sword, an Anubias barteri nana, a C. wendtii 'Red', and a piece of wood cover in Java Moss. I also went out rock hunting and found some really nice rocks, IMO at least. I am going to mess with the aquascape some tonight once the rocks are cleaned and disinfected. I got some new bulbs too so hopefully that will bright things up a bit.


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## Calmwaters (Sep 2, 2009)

Sounds good! C. Wendtii is one of my favorite plants they are easy to care for but sometimes when you first move them they will melt and look like they are going to die but normally they grow back so don't worry if they don't look to good in a few days. ; )


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Just brought in a haul of new rocks...Pretty happy with them. I'll probably replace all the rocks on the left side of the tank with some of these...the one that is at the top left is going in the tank for sure...pic really does not show how sweet the rock really is...hopefully once in the tank tonight it will show. I am thinking that rock that is like a ledge, actually two rocks stacked...maybe to the far left with the other rock I mentioned to the right of that. Not sure about the right side of the tank yet...more rock maybe? I am still hunting for that perfect piece of wood. Going back out tomorrow to walk the creek and see what shows up.

Just for perspective...the stacked rock ledge is about the size of a basketball.


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## Calmwaters (Sep 2, 2009)

Very nice rocks I like the one in the left back corner the best.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Alright...tank is hazy from adding a bag of Tahitian Moon Sand, removing some rocks, and adding new ones. So here is a bit of new aquascaping...not sure what to do on the right side yet and I want to still incorporate some wood in there somehow. That's it for now...definitely open to criticism and suggestions....


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## Fishkeeper71 (Aug 13, 2011)

Wow looks very nice. Well done so far I really like that rock on the left there the one you found. I've always been leery of using wild wood in my tanks but I'm in serious need of driftwood and these stores want a million bucks for it, it seems lol. Hopefully you'll find some and show us how you prepped it for the aquarium I'm really looking forward to that. 

Keep up the good work, Looks like your off to a great start.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

I definitely will. Depending on the size...I'll either give it a good boil and/or bleach soak or put it in a larger container and pour boiling water over top and let it soak in the hot water. I had to do that with the rocks on the left side of the tank cause they wouldn't fit in my big stock pot.


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## Calmwaters (Sep 2, 2009)

It looks good. Maybe on the empty side you could add a few large plants like maybe a sword plant or two.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

YEah...hoping to fill in a lot of the area with plants. Not much going on with the tank at the moment. Cycling, growing algae, and watching hitchhiker snails crawl around. At least there is some livestock in the tank...lol


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## Calmwaters (Sep 2, 2009)

LOL snails are a start not to much action but thats ok.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

WOOOOHOOOO!!!! I HAVE FISH!!!!!

Cycle finished about 8 or 10 days ago...I've been feeding the bacteria ammonia all week...5ppm to 0 over night, nitrites zero too...so I did a 60% water change this morning and went fish shopping. Came home with 10 black neons, 8 Glowlight tetras, and 3 oto cats. The cats are working on my diatoms and the tetras are schooling together nicely. Very excited to have some life other than snails in the tank.

I would like to maybe add a couple more otos once these settle in, some more black neons and Glowlights, and maybe one more school of small fish. I also plan on getting a school of cory cats...possibly three line. That will likely do it for my stocking. Just looking for some suggestions on the third school. I'd like to get the first two schools up to around 12-15 each. I was thinking possibly some zebra danios, but something with nice color would be cool as well. I just like the zebras cause the pattern would be a nice contrast to the other fish, plus they just seem like neat fish to watch. Still working on planting the tank a little at a time too.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Oh...and once the tank is well established I'd like some shrimp as well if my parameters will support them.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Quick shot...


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## k19smith (Aug 19, 2011)

It's looking good I wish I had you aqua scaping talent, I'm never happy with my tanks. Hey were neighbors I'm in WV also thought I have no idea where your at I'm geographically challenged as I'm not from here. What kind of shrimp are you wanting to get? I have cherry reds, I love them though I'm thinking about starting a tank of blue ones.


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

Looking good :thumbsup:


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

That is nice. Floating plants (just a few) would help.;-)


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Byron said:


> That is nice. Floating plants (just a few) would help.;-)


Suggestions? Only floating plants I have ever had before was some hornwort. I liked it well enough.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Nubster said:


> Suggestions? Only floating plants I have ever had before was some hornwort. I liked it well enough.


True floating plants are best, something like Water Sprite. If that is unavailable, stem plants can work as you hornwort did but it can get messy. Brazilian Pennywort makes a lovely floating plant, the leaves face up like lily pads and the roots dangle down in the water. I like both and have either or both floating in all my tanks.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Cool...thanks...I like the looks of the Pennywort...I'll have to see what's available around here or in the FS section.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

One of my Black Neons...


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Got back from school...one fish dead, one fish dying...both Black Neons. Removed both from the tank and took care of them appropriately. 

Immediately did water testing...
Ammonia/Nitrite 0
Nitrate 20-25
temp. 78ish
pH 7.6

One fish has what appears to be ick, all others seem fine...so far. I figure the stress got them. Going to start treatment for ick...raising the water temp now and looking into best option for meds or salt. 

Two questions...with my stock tetras and oto cats...what would be my best course of treatment? And can anyone tell by the picture if this is in fact ick?


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Or is it perhaps mouth fungus or even body slime/eye cloud? There are now two fish that seem affected...both have the white patch just in front of the pectoral fin...looks like it is coming out from under the scales. This one has white stuff coming from the mouth as you can see in the pic. I can try to get better ones if needed. I also have oto's in the tank so I need to consider them when figuring out a treatment. Ideas?


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

I don't believe that it is ich. Ich will look like the fish has been sprinkled with salt, from the picture this looks more like patches. Also on the patches does it look fuzzy? I Posted in your other post in tropical disease. Believe that it looks like columnaris, which is also known as cotton wool, mouth fungus and flexibacter. You will want to keep the water pristine. As with all catfish you will want to be careful when using medications to trreat and will want to try to find something that is safe for scaleless fish.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Yeah...fuzzy but not fluffy if that makes sense.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Also...I have some Furan-2 on hand in case anyone thinks that it should be used. I am trying to read as much as i can right now to get this figured out and treatment started. There is another fish that looks fine but acting very strange...gasping and staying at the top of the tank. Doesn't look good.


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

Sorry that you are having so many problems with your new fish :-( From what I can see the Furan 2 should work, it covers a broad range of bacterial diseases. The one thing I would check is to make sure that it is safe with your otos.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

The gasping fish died. I'll make sure Furan 2 is oto safe and I'll start treating. Can't loose anymore fish.


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## Romad (Jun 28, 2009)

Sorry about your fish issues. I see you found some plants already but if you're looking to get more or even if it's somewhere down the road, check out *mikeswetpets* on e-bay and I'm pretty sure he sells on Aquabid too.

I've bought from two other places online before I found this guy and was underwhelmed. They weren't bad but his plants blew me out of the water (ha ha). 

Good luck with clearing up your fish problem.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Thanks...I'll check him out...definitely want more plants. 

I start Furan 2 treatment...hope I can find some locally or I'll have to order...any suggestions on from where? My normal place is BigAls or Dr. Foster though they don't have the Kanamycin, BigAls does.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I've never used Furan, so I'm not suggesting it will or won't work. When I had columnaris (at least I assume that is what it was) I used Maracyn and Maracyn-TC. It stopped the spread, though the infected fish died. If you can find either of these locally, it will be quicker than ordering online.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

From the research I have done...it seems that as far as antibiotics are concerned, the Furan 2 is the preferred choice and adding Kanamycin will make an even more wide spectrum treatment, especially for difficult cases of Columnaris. And since fugal infections seem to be the most common secondary illness associated with columnaris I figured Pimafix would be good for that since it is also found to be effective against the columnaris.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Lost another one...another black neon that appeared healthy. The two sick looking ones still alive though one of them is not looking so good. At this rate I'll wake up in the morning to a dead tank.


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## Romad (Jun 28, 2009)

Nubster said:


> Lost another one...another black neon that appeared healthy. The two sick looking ones still alive though one of them is not looking so good. At this rate I'll wake up in the morning to a dead tank.


Sorry  Do you have any good local fish stores in your area (not necessarily the chain stores)? They tend to have more in the way of quality meds on hand.

There's a pretty common med. called Bi-Furan that I'm pretty sure is the same or close to Furan 2. I found the Bi-Furan locally and my fish stores aren't that great.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Yeah...going to look tomorrow. Bad thing is...these sick fish came from the only non-chain store in the area...lol...I am definitely letting them know about this...hopefully they will give me a refund/credit but even if not...they at least need to know they have sick fish that are going to end up screwing up a lot of other people's tanks too.


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

I would definilty let them know about the fish. A good store will make it right one way or another. With only having the fish for a couple of days, they definitly have something going on in their tank. Hopefully they do something to right the situation.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

If this is columnaris, it can be in the fish but not show up for weeks. I had a bad run of this, always with fish from a certain store. They have a central water filtration system, by which I mean all the tanks are connected to the same water flow. Even tanks with no diseased fish get infected. I have since stopped buying fish from them, since every species did come down with columnaris after several weeks. You can't quarantine fish for months.

Byron.


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

I have had stores that I have passed on buying fish from, because I have seen things that look like ich in their tanks. Before buying fish I always check out all of their tanks to see how the fish are looking.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Went by the store today after work with a water sample and explained what happened. They gave me credit for the fish lost. I went and looked at all the fish in all the tanks and none look sick, not even the tank with the Black Neons that mine came from. I guess the stress of the new tank and/or something different about my tank set off the illness. At least they made it right and I let them know about the problem.

Got home to another floater. I just hope the deaths stay isolated to the Black Neons...the other fish to this point seem pretty unaffected. I was able to pickup more meds so I will continue treatment and hope that takes care of the problem.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Lost an oto and another neon. Down to 3 neons...started with 11. Now it looks like the three remaining have ick. I'm wondering if that's what is killing most of them at this point. They are probably so stressed and weak that the ick is getting them and killing them so fast they don't even have time to show the white spots. I am going to stop by the LFS tomorrow on the way home and grab a new tank (Petco is having their $1 a gallon sale right now) for hospital/quarantine duties. Also...I might try the salt/heat method but if I have to resort to meds, and I have to treat the remaining two otos, any suggestions on what meds are safe for them and if I have to treat the main tank, what will be safe for future additions of shrimp to the tank?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Nubster said:


> Lost an oto and another neon. Down to 3 neons...started with 11. Now it looks like the three remaining have ick. I'm wondering if that's what is killing most of them at this point. They are probably so stressed and weak that the ick is getting them and killing them so fast they don't even have time to show the white spots. I am going to stop by the LFS tomorrow on the way home and grab a new tank (Petco is having their $1 a gallon sale right now) for hospital/quarantine duties. Also...I might try the salt/heat method but if I have to resort to meds, and I have to treat the remaining two otos, any suggestions on what meds are safe for them and if I have to treat the main tank, what will be safe for future additions of shrimp to the tank?


The ich is likely secondary, as the black neon in the photo previously posted did not have ich but more likely columnaris as Barb suggested. Ich attacks when fish are weakened or under stress, which is why it is so common with new fish.

The best ich treatment is raising the heat plus Coppersafe. Salt also works but characins are particularly sensitive to salt so this is only going to add more stress. Coppersafe is a better treatment with soft water fish. Raise the tank temp to 85F and add one dose of Coppersafe (1 teaspoon per 4 gallons of water--water, not tank size). I always do a water change immediately prior to treatment with CS since the water change dilutes the CS and one treatment is sufficient without. I keep the temp raised for a week; I raise and lower it naturally by adjusting the heater. After the week, do a water change; I usually wait 10 days. I do not re-dose CS.

Do not use plant fertilizer (another reason for the water change before treatment) as the additional copper can be detrimental. It may affect invertebrates (snails); some of my small snails certainly made it through treatment, though I thought they were fewer afterwards.

The above is safe to use after treating with Maracyn according to Mardel. Normally, treatments should not be combined as certain medications can interact, but Mardel make both products and recommend joint treatments in their instructions.

Byron.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

4 more dead and 2 dying. Now the tetras are kicking the bucket. I give up.


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

Sorry that you have still been having deaths in the tank. It can be discouraging when experiencing so many deaths.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Yeah...the dying are dead. Not sure what to do at this point. Let them all die, nuke the tank and start over I guess.


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

Letting things run their course and than starting over will probably be best. I have read of others having bad columnaris outbreaks which have wiped out entire tanks. Not sure what is recommended for cleaning the tank after to make sure the disease is not introduced to new stock. With further reading had seen there are four different strains, 2 of them have high mortaility rates. When you do get new stock might want to consider getting them from another source.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Yeah...that's for sure. I have bought just a few fish from this place before but never had an issue. That was several years ago. The tanks are "clean" and it is a reputable store...but this bad experience is certainly enough for me to stay away from anything but dry goods. Bad thing is...only other options are Petsmart and Petco though I have always had good luck at Petsmart. If nothing else...this is certainly a lesson in the importance of a quarantine tank.

As far as cleaning the tank...I'd say a couple gallons of bleach and lots of fresh water and conditioner should do it. Let everything soak a couple days and go from there.

Here is a question though...bacteria...do I need to sanitize my filter sponges or will they possibly be safe to use so I can avoid having to go through another 6 week cycle?


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Todays deathtoll so far...at least 6...I found a couple sinkers behind the big rock on the left side of the tank when I removed it trying to catch the remaining live fish. All are in a bucket now with a small pump, heater, and sponge from my filter. Water is fresh and clean and conditioned. Debating on whether to continue treating the fish with the Furan or just play the wait game and see what happens.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Nubster said:


> As far as cleaning the tank...I'd say a couple gallons of bleach and lots of fresh water and conditioner should do it. Let everything soak a couple days and go from there.
> 
> Here is a question though...bacteria...do I need to sanitize my filter sponges or will they possibly be safe to use so I can avoid having to go through another 6 week cycle?


So yeah...I don't really want to bleach my tank...especially not that much. But seriously...the fish are out of the main tank and all that is left is rocks, sand, and a few plants. I am removing the plants but I'm not sure what to do with the rocks and sand. Does it need cleaned? Sanitized? Boil it? Bake it? BBQ it? Hydrogen peroxide? Leave it and just do water changes and maintain the bacteria? I mean is there really a point in doing anything since columnaris is supposed to always be present.

And again...do I need to do anything with my filter media or can I just leave it and continue to feed the bacteria so it is ready to rock and roll when/if I get more fish?


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

I think all my snails are even dead now. LOTS of them...dead. My java fern is turning black. It takes some effort to kills snails and java fern. I really did a number on this tank.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I would guess that this is due to the Furan. I know the Maracyn, also an antibiotic, will affect plants. Is there any chance you overdosed the Furan? I also cannot imagine Columnaris spreading to everything in the tank so fast.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Well...I dosed according to the instructions one cap full of powder per 10 gallons. I dosed about 60 gallons worth estimating the amount of displacement from the sand and rocks. I am doing a big water change today. I am just wondering if the tank will be ok for fish as is or do I need to do anything to it? By safe for fish...I do mean after further quarantine and all new fish are quarantined. I've always dodge that bullet...not quarantining fish but it finally caught up to me...definitely a lesson learn at the expensive of a bunch of fish and $25 worth of meds that really didn't help much.

So far the fish in the bucket seem stable...I have the temp up right now...lost one more this morning but I knew that one was in trouble last night. Hoping that the remaining fish will pull through. I'll do daily water changes in the quarantine bucket to keep that water nice and fresh and for now until I hear otherwise...I'll start feeding the main tank with ammonia to keep the biofilter alive and do several large WC over the course of the next week. After that I guess I'll play it by ear. 

If the remaining fish survive and show no more signs of illness...how long do they need to stay in quarantine? A couple weeks?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

If possible, I would get the filter running in the QT, even if it just hangs on the side. If those are all the fish you have, no harm can occur. Replace all the filter media of course; not just wash it--replace it. Stuff like disease organisms and medicatons can remain in media.

Byron.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Yeah...I have some of the media in the bucket with the fish with a small pump moving water through the media and also breaking the water surface.

Other than replacing the media...anything else I should do with the main tank? I kinda see it both ways...one that the tank is infected and I should either start fresh or nuke the tank and kill every last living organism in it...and start from there OR do some water changes, run some carbon, leave it as is because of the train of thought that all tanks are or will become infected with any number of things and theses illnesses are kept at bay by healthy fish...so there really would be no point in starting fresh since things will be re-infected anyways. I am leaning this way because for one...I don't want to start over and be fishless again for 2 months, and two, I really can't afford to start over. I will if I have to of course but I'd rather not.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Well...the last 5 Glowlight tetras seem to be holding on. I don't want to speak too soon but I think they are going to be ok. They are active in their QT bucket, eating, and most important...not dying. I am doing daily water changes, about 50% so they are in very clean water so I hope that allows them to fend off anything they may have. Only issue with the bucket is I can't really get a good view of the fish. I am going to try hard to get into town to get a new tank tomorrow. 

My tank on the other hand looks like crap. The water is still tinted yellow even after two nearly 100% water changes, my java fern is turning black, my amazon sword is kinda translucent, and the wendii is melting. The anabus is hanging in there though. Any ideas on what I can do to get the plants to pull through? I'm grabbing some carbon tomorrow as well to try and clear up the water and remove the last traces of meds that might be in the tank. I am hoping things are stable and I can get the fish back in the tank in the next week or so granted they survive and stay healthy.


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## k19smith (Aug 19, 2011)

I'm sorry to hear about all your troubles, hopefully you can get back up and running.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Nubster said:


> Well...the last 5 Glowlight tetras seem to be holding on. I don't want to speak too soon but I think they are going to be ok. They are active in their QT bucket, eating, and most important...not dying. I am doing daily water changes, about 50% so they are in very clean water so I hope that allows them to fend off anything they may have. Only issue with the bucket is I can't really get a good view of the fish. I am going to try hard to get into town to get a new tank tomorrow.
> 
> My tank on the other hand looks like crap. The water is still tinted yellow even after two nearly 100% water changes, my java fern is turning black, my amazon sword is kinda translucent, and the wendii is melting. The anabus is hanging in there though. Any ideas on what I can do to get the plants to pull through? I'm grabbing some carbon tomorrow as well to try and clear up the water and remove the last traces of meds that might be in the tank. I am hoping things are stable and I can get the fish back in the tank in the next week or so granted they survive and stay healthy.


This says to me the Furan was too much. The effects of an antibiotic is what you are describing here. I'm not blaming you for overdosing, the product may have been at fault (defective somehow). I've never used it. The only similar product i have used, and for columnaris, was MAracyn, and it did not colour the water but it did affect some of the plants. And I certainly did only the recommended dose. The pygmy chain swords all melted within a week. Floating plants did too. The larger swrods showed no signs.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

hmmm...that stinks. Hopefully I can get the plants to pull through. Maybe I should pull them and get them in QT too? Different QT than the fish though. I am grabbing some carbon today to hopefully further clean up the water in the main tank and I need to give it a really good vacuuming. Dead snail shells everywhere. I'm going to continue doing big WC's for another week or so and if the remaining fish live and don't show any signs of being sick I'll try to get them back in the tank.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Carbon in the filter now...hopefully that will pull out any residual meds and nasties in the tank. I'll be doing at least a few more complete water changes too before I even consider putting fish back in. The 5 survivors are still doing ok. I'm optimistic they will make it as long as returning them to the tank doesn't take them out again. I plan to do a slow drip acclimation with them and all future fish after proper QT...it might be a little much but after this incident...I plan to be overly cautious. I don't think I can stand to loose 20+ fish again in one fell swoop.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Just a quick update for anyone interested. I ran the carbon until a couple days ago...did a huge water change, probably 80%...and put the surviving fish back in the tank. So far everyone seems to be doing well. I think it's officially over. Learning experience in the books. Next time I go into town I want to pickup some more GlowLights to boost up the school...of course this time they will spend time in QT. I am also ordering some ferts to keep the plants going. My anabius looks like crap but my sword and wendii is coming back nicely. I added some new moss and Needle leaf Java fern, both doing well. Anyways...that's about it for now. Hoping things are back on track and I can move forward as planned.

Oh yeah...I also added some MTSnails and they seem to be doing great as well. Really doing a bang up job of cleaning up the left over food despite there only being 10 in the tank at the moment. Hoping they have a mini-growth explosion.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Nubster said:


> Just a quick update for anyone interested. I ran the carbon until a couple days ago...did a huge water change, probably 80%...and put the surviving fish back in the tank. So far everyone seems to be doing well. I think it's officially over. Learning experience in the books. Next time I go into town I want to pickup some more GlowLights to boost up the school...of course this time they will spend time in QT. I am also ordering some ferts to keep the plants going. My anabius looks like crap but my sword and wendii is coming back nicely. I added some new moss and Needle leaf Java fern, both doing well. Anyways...that's about it for now. Hoping things are back on track and I can move forward as planned.
> 
> Oh yeah...I also added some MTSnails and they seem to be doing great as well. Really doing a bang up job of cleaning up the left over food despite there only being 10 in the tank at the moment. Hoping they have a mini-growth explosion.


They will.:lol: Never fear. Glad to hear things are better.


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

Good to hear things are going better :-D


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## k19smith (Aug 19, 2011)

Glad to hear, what a nightmare.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Yeah it was. Hoping it is over and I don't have to go through that again. Hoping to get some more fish this weekend and I'd still like to get some shrimp from you soon.


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## gmate (Sep 19, 2011)

Do you think you stocked too fast initially? I read the whole thread, it seemed you kinda plunked a lot in at first. I usually start with 2-3, even if I'm going for a community or shoal.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Well...I know my biofiltration could handle it. It never registered ammonia or nitrites during the whole ordeal until the plants and snails started dying but by that time all the fish were already dead or moved to QT. And I can't imagine that many fish in the tank was stressful considering the fish were crammed probably 50(each species) or more in a space containing maybe 15 gallons at the store. Guess we'll find out cause I just picked up more fish today. 6 Glowlights to make an even 10 total and 10 Bloodfins. They are going in QT first though...floating bags and getting ready to acclimate as I type.


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## gmate (Sep 19, 2011)

Nubster said:


> Well...I know my biofiltration could handle it. It never registered ammonia or nitrites during the whole ordeal until the plants and snails started dying but by that time all the fish were already dead or moved to QT. And I can't imagine that many fish in the tank was stressful considering the fish were crammed probably 50(each species) or more in a space containing maybe 15 gallons at the store. Guess we'll find out cause I just picked up more fish today. 6 Glowlights to make an even 10 total and 10 Bloodfins. They are going in QT first though...floating bags and getting ready to acclimate as I type.


Ugh. So jealous. I wish I had fish acclimating as I typed this haha.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

haha...it's a good feeling but at the same time kinda bringing back bad memories from just a couple weeks ago. I am hoping this time it turns out better. I figure with QT and better acclimating I should be able to better control things. At least if they start showing signs of bad stuff it might be easier to treat them in only 20 gallons of water and a pretty bare tank. I'm also starting them off at a higher temp to try and ward off ich from the start. That's why I am going to float them for a while so they get used to the warm water and then I'll drip acclimate them to the tank water. Definitely fingers crossed. If this works out, I'll probably do 10 more of each for a total of two 20 fish schools, then start adding some cory cats and if I can find some ottos that are already on pellets, I'd like to get more of them too. I'd like to get more plants before I get them though.


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## gmate (Sep 19, 2011)

Well you're definitely right in taking it slow this time. Good luck, let us know how it turns out :-D


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Sure will.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Fish in QT all doing well. Active and eating and starting to show some color again. I am giving them no less than a week in QT but I want to go 2 weeks if I can be patient enough. Just gotta remind myself what happened last time...that should be enough.


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

Good to hear the new fish are doing well, and sounds like you have a good game plan :-D


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Thanks. One fish started acting weird day before yesterday, swimming oddly very much like the others did before they died. I went ahead and culled it...not taking any chances this time. All others doing well thus far.


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## k19smith (Aug 19, 2011)

Better go for that 2 week quarantine just to be safe. I've heard of people doing 3. I don't quarantine but if i bought from a local store I would. In the 8 yrs I've been fish keeping I have ordered almost every fish online and never had one single illness. The only thing I've ever bough local was a few guppies.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Yeah...I'm going to try hard to keep them in QT for 2 weeks...but you know how it is...lol...all fish are looking good except the one I took out. Hoping that one was a fluke and I caught it before anything else happens.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Shipping rant...how come I can order two things on the same day, both shipped on Monday...I live in West Virginia (eastern). One item I ordered comes from California, the other from West Virginia (western)...guess what, the item from CA arrived today, the item from WV did not. Wouldn't be an issue except the WV item is livestock. I hate USPS. I once ordered something from two states away one day, and item from China the next. Item from China arrive several days before the item from a couple states away. Ughhh...end rant.


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## k19smith (Aug 19, 2011)

I'm sorry but the China thing just made me bust out laughing. 

While every now and then USPS really makes me mad, I've had far better luck with them than Fedex, me and fedex do not get a long at all. 

What I can't figure out is when I shipped them on Monday it said they would be there on Tuesday, I think there off a little.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Yeah...ends up the package of live shrimp did arrive yesterday but not until after my carrier already left. But instead of getting them out for delivery they just let them sit at the PO all day and night. They were delivered today however. The kicker is...the tracking number says that delivery was attempted and a notice left yesterday...neither being true. Oh well. It's government...what can you do. Shrimp did get here safe so I guess that's all that matters. Thankfully they were packed very well. Thanks k19.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Just a little update...not much going on...I have recently ordered a CO2 reg., I have a 10# tank, I have some T5HO lights (2x54w) on the way, and I just finished building a CO2 reactor. I added a Betta last week and he is doing well...nice splash of color and a little personality to the tank. I am hoping to get a large plant package from a member on another site...it's a RAOK so I'll find out tomorrow. I will really go along ways in helping fill in my tank. Anyways...here's a few update shots...










Some of my new Betta...


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

And for anyone interested in the reactor...here is a little about it...

The parts










Primed, ready for glue










Glued and assembled










Took literally 15 minutes to build. I had the pipe already and spend about $20 for the rest of the stuff. I used 2" pvc and the pipe is about 18". Barbs are 1/2" and instead of drilling a hole and inserting the CO2 line, I went ahead and used a threaded T piece and got an actual screw-in barb to install the CO2 line on. Feel free to ask any questions about the build. I'll post up how it works once I get all my CO2 equipment. The frustrating part is that my tank needs hydro tested and the only place near me that does it is backed up 3-4 weeks. I might stop in there on Wednesday and see if they have a small 5# loaner tank I can use while waiting for my 10# to be tested and filled. I'd love to get CO2 in my tank this week. Lights should be here this week as well.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

This arrived this morning...too bad I don't have my tank back from hydro-testing yet...


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Little tank update...got the reactor hooked up temporarily just to see how it works. Need to figure out how I am going to dose the tank now that I have better (debatable) lights and CO2. Right now I am just using the PPS method. I also planted a bunch of stuff the other day. Doesn't look like much more than before but in person there is a difference. Here is a quick iPhone shot of the tank from minutes ago...










The clump of crypts to the left between the rocks...within a minute or two of turning on the CO2 is started releasing several streams of tiny bubbles non-stop from the leaves. What's that all about?


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

That setup looks good. Will look even better once everything has grown in. Usually when people have high tech setups and dose c02 they are after good fast growth. "Pearling" is something they look for. Now I don't know if that is exactly the case going on there or not. You have to look it up and ask more experience people. That's just the name of it.


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## Jayy (Dec 23, 2009)

Very nice setup. Hopefully you wont have another stream of deaths. What kind of plant is that in the front right corner?


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

It's a Kleiner Baer sword.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Quick shot from tonight...things have grown more than I thought. Have some algae issues and loads of snails but I am trying to iron all that out...


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

Looking good Nubster, honesty think the Kleiner Bear sword would look better in the back left corner though.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

YEah...no room for it there though without doing a big move of the hardscape and a bunch of plants. Really, the only spot for now is where it's at. I may do some rearranging of stuff over Christmas break though.


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## Calmwaters (Sep 2, 2009)

Wow thats major growth! I agree with moveing the Kleiner Baer but I would put it in front of the intake on the filter to hide it. It is really looking good!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

That is doing well indeed, very nice work. B.


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## Jayy (Dec 23, 2009)

Wow!! Very nice growth. I sure hope my plants take off.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

I have decided to try and do some rescaping week after next. I will get a new pic up this evening but I would like some suggestions if possible. I am also going to go out and try to scrounge up some drift wood...not alot but I think a medium size piece could really help the overall look. I may remove the rock on the left as well if I find some wood. The Kleiner Baer sword is out of control too...it's freaking huge. It is also sending up a flower stalk which is pretty cool. Anyways, not totally sure what to do with it...maybe more centered but off centered just a bit? I want to bring my Java fern up and forward as well. I may thin some stuff out too and stick in my newly setup shrimp tank which is pretty bare at the moment. I am completely up for suggestions....new pic to come this even when lights come on.


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Also...some new additions arrived today...Snails are to hopefully help with my ramhorn and pond snail problem and the crayfish are going to be a cool addition to my 75g planted tank. Hoping some breeding takes place with the crayfish. I know there is one sexed pair in the group and three other unsexed so I guess we'll see what happens.


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## Calmwaters (Sep 2, 2009)

I think crayfish are so cool but won't they eat your fish?


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Not these...they are dwarf crayfish and max out at around an inch to inch and a half with very small claws...too small to do any damage even if they wanted to. They are regarded as peaceful and do well in a community tank. Of course if there are shrimp or fish fry in the tank they may to the opportunity to chow on babies, but otherwise...they are safe.


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## Calmwaters (Sep 2, 2009)

Very cool, do they come in neat colors like the big ones or just the brown?


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

There are orange ones as well but they are a bit costly. I got these, 5 for $28 shipped. They run about $4-6 to buy each so I am hoping they breed so I can sell some. The orange ones are quite a bit more at $15ish each.


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## Calmwaters (Sep 2, 2009)

Ohh I like those! Good luck with yours and I hope they have some babys for you!


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Did a quick rescape this evening...

Before









After


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## magpie (Nov 7, 2011)

Are those assassin snails then? Have you seen them eating the others yet? 

Looking good... it's fun to watch as these things progress. I see the sword was trimmed and moved?


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## Nubster (Aug 1, 2011)

Yeah...It was so huge, I was going to get rid of it but decided to trim it and give it a second chance...lol...I moved to over too. I think it works better in this spot.

Yeah, assassin snails...I saw one take out a baby ramhorn within 5 minutes of being released into the tank. I have seen them eat MTS too. My snail population is way down already. I'll probably be getting rid a some of the assassins soon and just keep a few and try to balance the populations.


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## Calmwaters (Sep 2, 2009)

I like it but if it were me I would move the sword to the back corner of the tank because of the size they grow to.


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