# DIY Nitrate Filter



## AbbeysDad

Ref: High Nitrates in tap (well) water

I live in the country and right across the road is 95 acres of crop land that gets organic and chemical fertilizers... which translates into high nitrates in my well water. I don't really want to buy water for water changes or if I do, I'd want to scale back the volume or frequency and still have good water chemistry.
I studied the Aquaripure, but it's a little expensive for my 60g tank and the high nitrates I have.

So what follows is my DIY attempt at a nitrate filter using Seachem Matrix and Seachem De*Nitrate.
The container is a basic lock top kitchen canister:


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## AbbeysDad

More to follow.


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## AbbeysDad

Note: although I'm calling this a nitrate filter, it actually will be a complete bio-filter. The Matrix/De*Nitrate platform in the canister will support both aerobic and anaerobic bacteria colonies. I'm unsure of the Tome 3.5gph flow rate. I will begin at full flow, thinking that the Matrix/De*Nitrate pores will allow the anaerobic bacteria to develop. If necessary, I'll put a valve at the outlet to reduce flow to lower flow and create less O2 in the canister. Also note that even though I have been running my AC70 full of Matrix for a long time and will use this material in the canister (along with new De*Nitrate), I will also be using Seachem Stability to further seed the new unit and the tank for additional bio-kick.
I believe that the canister will allow approximately 4 liters of product. I have 2l of Matrix and have order 2l of De*Nitrate. In the lower portion of the canister, I'm planning to mix De*Nitrate with the matrix. The upper portion will be all De*Nitrate. In the end, I don't know that it matters and I may have it mixed throughout.


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## zof

Can't wait for your results, flow rate sounds about good but if you want you can baffle some of the denitrate so it receives an even lower flow rate, also don't know what your doing about media baskets but I'm thinking you should be able to find some plant baskets that will fit that pretty well.


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## AbbeysDad

Actually I'm not going to use any baskets. The canister is just going to be filled with the Matrix/De*Nitrate (2 liters of each) mix (over the filter batt). I figure when it's time for cleaning, the canister will be disconnected and taken to the sink and dumped into a kitchen cullender for rinsing.

I confirmed the filter plans with Seachem Tech Support regarding media and flow rate. They gave possitive feedback.
Seachem Discussion.

Today I performed a successful leak test (photo). Pump and media should arrive by the end of the week.


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## AbbeysDad

How it works is very simple, much like a commercial canister on a much smaller scale. An airline siphon tube from the aquarium runs to the top of the canister into one of two airline T's. The top was drilled with holes slightly smaller than the OD of the T's for a press fit, then sealed on the inside with GE 100% silicone (a very small amount just for insurance). A tube on the inside runs down to the bottom of the canister, under the drilled dispersion plate (which is simply the top of the 2 liter Matrix jar which just happened to be a perfect fit). The other T is in the center of the top. Airline tube will run from here to the Tom pump that will hand on the back of the aquarium. Very, very simple!
I already had the canister, T's, tubing and 2 liters of Matrix.

Tom Aqua lifter pump: $15.99
Tom hanger: $ 8.99
2 Liter Seachem De*Nitrate: $21.58
Seachem Stability: $ 8.66
S&H $ 0
Tax $ 4.42
Total $59.64


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## AbbeysDad

I was looking over the pics here and decided that the dispersion plate needed more holes so I drilled some more (both top and along the side for better water flow...


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## AbbeysDad

As I add to my rambling on here, I'll point out that my objective is dramatically reduced nitrates. In addition to this DIY filter, I'll have floating plants, monitor feeding closely to prevent over feeding and will maintain a high level of tank, filter, substrate cleaning to minimize nitrate creation. I've also been using external water sourdes for water changes to get the nitrate lower.
It would be nice to have a nitrate filter so efficient that no matter how much nitrate there is in the system, it's just converted to N2 in a flash. That's a long way off and perhaps just a dream.
Also, it may take some time for this new filter to cycle and stablize. It will have the advantage of the existing Matrix that's been in the AC70 filter for months AND I will be further seeding the system with Seachem Stability to 'kick it up a notch'... but time and test results will determine effectiveness.
Finally, it's my understanding that the anaerobic bacteria processes the nitrate to obtain the O2 it needs, but this is not food. The Aquaripure system adds alcohol or sugar water to feed the bacteria. Not sure how I 'feed' new friends in this filter???


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## zof

Were you able to get the silicone to adhere to the plastic container? I've had horrible luck with this and actually one of my water tight seals is just super glued lol.


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## AbbeysDad

zof said:


> Were you able to get the silicone to adhere to the plastic container? I've had horrible luck with this and actually one of my water tight seals is just super glued lol.


It seems to have adhered really well and I didn't even bother to clean with alcohol....but as I wrote, the smaller drilled hole size made for a good press fit, so the silicone is just a precaution in the event of a tiny pin hole somewhere. The leak test was good so I'm good for a trial when the order gets here.


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## AbbeysDad

AbbeysDad said:


> Finally, it's my understanding that the anaerobic bacteria processes the nitrate to obtain the O2 it needs, but this is not food. The Aquaripure system adds alcohol or sugar water to feed the bacteria. Not sure how I 'feed' new friends in this filter???


I posed this question to Seachem Tech support. They indicated that they do not recommend supplemental feeding with alcohol/sugar as there should be enough food for the bacteria in dissolved organics. I suggested and they agreed that I should discontinue use of Purigen for the time being to better ensure bacteria colony development in the new filter.


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## Mikaila31

Wouldn't it just be cheaper to go planted? I mean one mistake or accident and O2 gets into the reactor doesn't it cause a major die off?

Also if you really had 60ppm out of the well you know thats above drinking water standards?

At 40ppm in the tank I personally would not be worried at all. Thats fine IMO. Before I moved my 55 gallon ran 40ppm of nitrates constantly for years. I kept lots of fish in there and many spawned and were very happy. Along with rainbows, tetras, and angels spawning I had an unintentional spawning of GBR.


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## AbbeysDad

Mikaila31 said:


> Wouldn't it just be cheaper to go planted? I mean one mistake or accident and O2 gets into the reactor doesn't it cause a major die off?


Perhaps a good point, but a retrofit for new lights is about $100+, plus substrate, plants and ongoing fert cost. Maybe cheaper if I built a DIY canopy with a Lowes/HD type 4' florescent light. 

You're correct. Most nitrate reactors are dependent on low oxygen levels in the canister. Quite true in the Aquaripure filter, for example, that uses sponge material (graduated course to fine) as the bacteria platform.
In this case, the 'secret' is in the media. Seachem claims that the macro pore structure of matrix and de*nitrate promotes aerobic bacteria colonies on the surface and anaerobic bacteria colonies deep within the pores. This is why the larger Matrix supports faster flow rates, while the smaller de*nitrate requires a much slower (<50gph) flow rate.



Mikaila31 said:


> Also if you really had 60ppm out of the well you know thats above drinking water standards?


Yes, I think the standard for drinking water is like <=10ppm. However, My wife became seriously ill 20 years ago and as a precaution we began using bottled water (delivered) for drinking and have ever since.


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## AbbeysDad

I may have jumped the gun here. After a PM from Beetlebz asking about Matrix, I got to thinking...

I didn't know I had high nitrates in my well water. Long ago, Byron indirectly convinced me to do 50% water changes weekly...which I did like clockwork. Quite awhile ago I added another Aquaclear 70 filter filled with Matrix for no other reason other than increased bio-media capacity. Even though the Matrix may be knocking down my nitrate levels, I was pumping them back up every weekend with the 50% water change.
Making matters worse, a few months ago, I began using Purigen which removes organics in solution. The same material that serve as food for anaerobic bacteria. With prudent tank maintenance, no Purigen and reduced water changes (frequency or volume), my existing system (with 1.5 liters of Matrix in the AC70) may be able to handle nitrates.
Testing now. I pulled the Purigen out. I will perform modest water changes with good water and monitor nitrates before installing the new filter.

Living and learning ;-)


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## beetlebz

you and i are in the same boat bud. I tested my tap water today (also a well on farm lands) and realized it tested out with 0.25ppm ammonia and 30ppm nitrates.

I posted in the planted forum about my plants to make a DIY nitrate filter also. im considering a different approach however. I was going to take the outflow from my ehiem 2236, go into a bulkhead at the bottom of a 3 gallon bucket (sealed top) full of lava rock or something porus (not just textured) like matrix. then out the top using the head pressure from the canister, and back into the aquarium. My hopes is that the bio media in the ehiem will perform as usual, and then by the time it reaches the bucket the o2 will be used up before it reaches the top. Im still debating though. the 30ppm in my 55 and 20 long arent going to cost me sleep (though id like them lower), but the 60ppm in my 110 will definitely cost me sleep!

im afraid using an actual chemical media to absorb nitrates will keep me broke changing it out constantly.


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## Mikaila31

IMO you should both just toss your nitrate kits in the trash and chill lol. Very few fish are bothered by 60ppm and nitrate in general. Also remember nitrate test kits are extremely inaccurate. 

Or maybe I am just the weird one lol. I would rather have my old well water with its 25ppm of nitrates then my new city water with 0ppm. The GBR I moved should of loved the new softer, slightly more acidic, overall 'better' water quality at my new place. Despite that they decided to die after a month:roll:.


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## beetlebz

I dunno. Ive lost alot of fish recently, and alot of it (alot of tetras, most gourami, and a female betta) can be attributed indirectly to nitrates (dropsy, in a few cases). Now the params are perfect for the fish I keep in most cases, however the only fish im having issues keeping alive are the sensitive ones. Its like, its the only thing it could be! I know its not but...

Cories, and glass cats are both getting sickly in my 20 long at 30ppm, and I inexplicably lost a common plec in my 110g a month or two ago, WAY younger than he shoulda gone. He was only like a year old. I had trouble keeping firemouths alive in that tank for some reason too, one of the reasons I got the sevs instead.


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## Mikaila31

Dunno what to say about that, but I've kept things like rummy tetras in 40ppm and they had great colors and lived for a long time. My GBR I bought and raised from 1/4" fry in a tank around 20ppm nitrate. Two eventually paired and spawned in my 55 gallon community. That tank ran average of 40ppm with weekly 50% water changes. The rams decided it was best to spawn when I neglected to do a water change for two weeks. 

Just the way I see it... you know its not the nitrate, so what is the point in putting in all the effort to control the nitrate when you know that's not the issue? I'm not sure how dropsy is indircetly related to nitrates, since it can be caused by anything from constipation, bacterial infection, to organ failure. 

@Abbey it may cost you for lights and plants, but I highly doubt you would need a different substrate or fertilizers with that water. Plants have extra benefits as well. I honestly would of quit the hobby years ago if I hadn't gone planted. I'll convince you one day ;-).


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## AbbeysDad

I also initially questioned the accuracy of the test results which is why I also tested store bought bottled water and distilled water. Finding they were both zero for nitrates suggested that my well water and tank water are very high in nitrates. We could quibble over absolute values, but it wouldn't change the fact that based on comparative analysis the nitrates are way high.

It's generally held that aquarium nitrates should be less than 40ppm, preferably less than 20ppm. At some point, high nitrates causes problems - not as short term deadly as ammonia and nitrites, but general health and longevity. I too have had numerous fish losses that I could not explain. A couple recently due to dropsy or constipation. Of the first brood of some 20 Red Wag Platy's we raised, only two remain and before they passed, most showed signs of stunted growth. 
While some fish seem okay, others are lethargic and rest on the bottom or at the surface much of the time. I have a couple right now showing signs of shimmy. Of course, I can't be certain that the high nitrates are the root cause, but now that I know there's a water quality issue, I need to take steps to resolve it. 

I have read that by themselves, plants prevent nitrates better than removing them by using the ammonia...so nitrites and nitrates are not created. Plants can process nitrates, but in an environment where ammonia exists (like the aquarium) it will use ammonia instead as it requires more energy to process nitrates.
Lazy plants! :roll: So plants would help by otherwise reducing tank generated nitrates, but likely not solve the overall source nitrate water problem.

When you research lowering nitrates in an aquarium, the #1 solution is the water change - increased frequency or volume. But of course this is the last thing we should do if the source water is high in nitrates.
We would either need to use other water for partial water changes and/or find a way to keep nitrates in the tank low. Water is about $1 a gallon. I was doing a 30g water change on my 60g tank weekly. Even if I reduce to a 10g weekly change, it adds up. API makes a $50 tap water filter for nitrates (which I may also get), but the filter cartridges are expensive and some reviews suggest that the cartridges exhaust very quickly. It has to produce 50g+ to break even (over purchased water).
API also makes Nitra Zorb which is yet another synthetic adsorbant that removes ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. It can be recharged in salt water for numerous re-use (unclear how many times). I'm hesitant to use this as it upsets or circumvents the beneficial bio-filtration.
Then there is the dedicated bio/nitrate filter on the tank. 

The obvious solution to this problem is to remove nitrates from my well water...but shooting the farmer or moving just doesn't seem practical :lol: and a house system for nitrate removal is expensive. Although I'm usually against shot gun solutions, I think a combination of nitrate reduction methods may be the answer and may allow a prudent water change with my well water.


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## beetlebz

I wonder if there is a purely chemical solution. I wonder if it could really just be as simple as finding a chemical (that wont kill fish) that splits the nitrate and oxygen. For the life of me I cant find on the seachem site (ill email them) where it tells you exactly HOW prime detoxifies nitrates. I wouldnt even mind drip dosing prime, if they would explain to me why it would work 

in the mean time, Ill stop hijacking your thread until you get some test reults AD! :lol:

I finally found the information on the seachem website about prime lol this is priceless, but at least theyre honest. 

" The detoxification of nitrite and nitrate by Prime (when used at elevated levels) is not well understood from a mechanistic standpoint. The most likely explanation is that the nitrite and nitrate is removed in a manner similar to the way ammonia is removed; i.e. it is bound and held in a inert state until such time that bacteria in the biological filter are able to take a hold of it, break it apart and use it. Two other possible scenarios are reduction to nitrogen (N2) gas or conversion into a benign organic nitrogen compound.
I wish we had some more "concrete" explanation, but the end result is the same, it does actually detoxify nitrite and nitrate. This was unexpected chemically and thus initially we were not even aware of this, however we received numerous reports from customers stating that when they overdosed with Prime they were able to reduce or eliminate the high death rates they experienced when their nitrite and nitrate levels were high. We have received enough reports to date to ensure that this is no fluke and is in fact a verifiable function of the product."


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## AbbeysDad

Unfortunately Seachem is also quick to admit that Prime detoxifies for only 24 to 48 hours so unless you redose every two days, the detox wears off. Prime is great, but it's powers are limited for our problem.
The only 'chemical' solution I found was Nitra Zorb. In theory, I suppose if you used it constantly it might be an aid. However, it claims to remove ammonia, nitrite and nitrate... but if we truly remove ammonia, there is not nitrite or nitrate. I'm not really sure it will remove nitrate from the source water as opposed to preventing it????


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## beetlebz

oh no doubt prime would break the bank in pretty short order. Dont we have any chemists here than can destroy the nitrate molecule with some household chemicals and a few gigawatts of current through the flux capacitor?

MacGyver would know what to do.

Its all so daunting. For the last 2 days ive been reading everything there is to read about nitrates.


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## AbbeysDad

Well, I was gonna play 'wait and see' with my existing setup, but then changed my mind after the order arrived. After testing the Tom pump, I pulled the AC70, rinsed the used Matrix, rinsed the new De*Nitrate, Added 6 capfuls of stability to the filler, installed the pad, mixed and added the Matrix/De*Nitrate mix.
I filled the canister with tank water and let the Tom pump circulate to mix the Stability/water. After I time, I went ahead and hooked up on my tank - see pictures.
The Tom is pretty cool since it pumps water and/or air. I didn't have to start the siphon, it just pulled the air out on it's own.

So now it's a bit of a waiting game. Even though the used Matrix makes for a partial bio-seed, there's a lot of new De*Nitrate and the Stability in play, so there will be a cycle of sorts.
Time will tell.


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## Mikaila31

You both underestimate the uptake of plants. Yes they will use ammonia first, but do not disregard their nitrate absorbing capacity. If nitrate was a poor nitrogen source we would not dose it as fertilizer. Your right that the biofilter is basically a nitrate factory. IMO this is why my filterless tanks aways preform so much better then my filtered tanks. They uptake the ammonia preventing nitrate formation, but once the ammonia is consumed they WILL readily uptake nitrate. I was actually surprised how much my first soil filterless tank consumed. I expected that with the 25ppm out of my old well, the pounds of rich organic topsoil in the tank(nonmineralized), and a moderate bioload that nitrates would be considerably high. I don't test my tanks normally, I did my first nitrate test on this one when it was a few months old. I got a <10ppm reading which surprised me so much that I had to retest it and use controls from the other tanks to convince myself the reading was correct. The tank was very consistent about dropping at least 10ppm nitrate every week. 

Now that I am on city water after weekly 50% water changes I add ~20ppm of nitrates to my high tech 55 via fertilizers. According to aqadivser the tank is:


> Your aquarium filtration capacity for above selected species is *83%*. (Really? +6X turnover isn't enough lol)
> Recommended water change schedule: *82%* per week. (You might want to split this water change schedule to two separate 57% per week)
> *Your aquarium stocking level is 206%* .
> *Your tank is seriously overstocked. Unless this setup is temporary, you should consider a larger tank.*


I just tested my nitrate and its ~15ppm. I did a water change 4 days ago(City water has 0ppm). I don't actually measure my fertilizer I just eyeball it. My goal is to bump it to 20ppm right after a water change then I usually don't dose any more nitrate after that. The tank stays roughly stable to whatever the weekly starting value is. I'm not sure how much of a biofilter the tank has though. I don't agree with the common saying that plants will consume ammonia before bacteria. They will both consume it, it simply depends who gets to it first. I would _assume_ if you had a fast current and high filtration turnover the bacteria have the upper hand. Low filtration and its the plants. I know I can clone tanks from that canister filter but its been a long time since I have done that. You know how my filters looks too lol

However I will be blunt, when using plants what you NEED, NEED, NEED is growth. The more growth the more assimilation of nutrients. If you have little growth then yes plants won't do much at all. You don't need high tech, but you do need light. A lot on this site seem to stick to really low or low light. You need moderate/medium light and specifically fast growing stem plants or similar. 



> It's generally held that aquarium nitrates should be less than 40ppm, preferably less than 20ppm.


I vaguely agree with this. The limit for nitrate in safe drinking water is 44ppm, most we know have much less. IMO the only point of testing nitrates is to get a idea of the nutrient load/cycling in a tank, to me a nitrate reading is almost useless unless you compare it to the tap levels. Your tank IMO is fine. A tank with a heavy bioload and non-planted will produce about 20ppm of nitrate a week from my experience. As long as nitrate in the tank shows a reasonable increase for the given bioload things are fine. Its when you see elevated nitrate buildup compared to the tap levels it points to either lack of water changes or a feeding/waste issue. Its my belief that you need really high nitrates before most fish are effected, like +100ppm. Health issues are not always related to water quality. While water is a big factor in fish health you can have perfect water and still have fish get sick. 

Anyway I'll stop digressing on this lol. I just can't understand the reluctance to move to planted. Its when you first introduce fish that have never seen a live plant into a densely planted tank their bewilderment and initial fear of their natural environment always strikes me. 

If you are really insistent on removing nitrate from the tap why not just get a cheap RO filter. You don't need a house system and you don't need major capacity. You would need a large holding bin for the water and likely a pump unless you put the bin in a location higher then the tanks. I found this RO filter. Its cheap for an RO filter but I would not expect it to live up to all advertising values. Either way if you can get 1/2 that GPD thats still more then enough. Its 4 stage but 2 of those are simple carbon filters. The only one I would really change regularly is the first stage 5 micron filter. There is no reason to change the 3rd stage until you see nitrate levels increase. I'm sure you can cheaply change the first stage. It says they are a standard filter size. You can get cheap generic media replacements off ebay. You could replace the carbon filters with something more helpful like 1 micron filters. Its really just the membrane thats the expensive one to replace. That is also the one that is going to be removing your nitrate. None of the others really will, but they will protect the membrane.


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## AbbeysDad

Yes Makaila, plants are good...that's why I added floating (Anacharis) plants. But as I mentioned, I'd need all new lighting/hoods to support plants in this 24" deep tank. I did see an Aqueon retrofit recently at Petsmart for $90 (that would fit over my existing hood/covers.) Alternatively, I could build a canope with a 48" light set. Still $100+, not counting the plants and on-going ferts, etc.

I'm not sure I'd go with an RO unit when API has a $50 tap filter for nitrates which may be an option. My only concern are some reviews that suggest that in some cases, filter cartridges don't last very long at all. The replacement cartridges at $25 aren't cheap.

Perhaps my $50~ dedicated bio/nitrate/denitrator filter is an off base, knee jerk reaction. It surely is if it doesn't work....we'll see.

In the meantime, I am treating the tank/filter like a new tank. Not too far off since I tore it all down just a week ago.
I added 6 capfuls of Stability per the Seachem directions in the new filter and will add 3 capfuls a day to the tank for the next 7 days. I will report back on nitrate test results.

Btw, I think the flow rate on the Tom aqua lifter (3.5gph) is perfect in this application.


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## AbbeysDad

beetlebz said:


> oh no doubt prime would break the bank in pretty short order. Dont we have any chemists here than can destroy the nitrate molecule with some household chemicals and a few gigawatts of current through the flux capacitor?
> 
> MacGyver would know what to do.
> 
> Its all so daunting. For the last 2 days ive been reading everything there is to read about nitrates.


If I was you I just might give API's Nitra Zorb a shot.


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## AbbeysDad

Just a reference point of my 40-60ppm tank nitrates:


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## beetlebz

I have a well planted 20g mikaila, and im still showing tap levels of nitrates. Maybe in time as the plants get more and more substantial they will feed off the nitrates, but they arent yet. I only lightly dose flourish. I just set up an anchoring system for my 110g to hold clumps of water sprite until they get established, just to see what happens, but I suspect it will be the same. It will reach a point where it consumes ammonia and such but not enough to consume nitrates. But we will see. Thats the fun part about it, I get to learn something, if nothing else


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## AbbeysDad

As someone else in another forum suggested (and my PM to you Beetle) Fluval Lab Series Nitrate Remover may be the chemical you seek. 

_Fluval Lab Series Nitrate Remover is a high capacity, laboratory developed Ion exchange resin that is safe for fish, plants and invertebrates. Developed from a pure High Grade String Base Anion Exchange resin, Nitrate Remover rapidly and selectively removes nitrate and eliminates toxic nitrite within a matter of hours, resulting in a healthy environment for your fish. It removes up to 25 mg/L (ppm) of toxic nitrate per 50 gallons of water (189L). It does not contain phosphate, will not affect pH or Hardness, and can be recharged several times. The Fluval Lab Series Nitrate Remover is for freshwater use only._

I may get some to bring levels down until my filter kicks in and manages.
(I've tried a few water changes with 'good' water with negligible success.)


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## 1077

Studies I have seen/read on the effect's of nitrAtes on fishes health, were largely based on studies of a few game fish species.
My early expieriences with fishes were large waste producing cichlids, and in unplanted aquaria ,with no nitrates from source water,,the nitrates were end result of bacterial activity breaking down organic's, animal proteins,waste.
These south American,Central American cichlids, did much better for me with nitrate levels under 40 ppm with 20 ppm being even better.(above this,fish were sickly)
Now that I am running a couple three planted tank's, I add pottasium nitrate, KNO3 as macronutrient to these tanks each week, and believe there is large difference between the inorganic salt KNO3, and Nitrate levels as result of afore mentioned decaying or processesd organics, the latter being an indication of poor maint, with exception of situation where levels are recorded from source water.
If fishes exhibitied any abnormal behaivor from this inorganic salt,,I would cease and desist (trust me)
Brazilian Penny wort grows on surface of 55 gal tank I have holding five plecos, and some white cloud minnows,guppie fry, with nothing more than one 32 watt T8 bulb.
In fact ,,it grew fairly well with just light from north facing window, and it was then,, that I decided to give it some more light to see if it would not out grow the plecos attempt's at consuming it.
I now pull 3 gal bucket of this from the tank around every three weeks,(trade for store credit) and it sops up enough Nitrates that I have been able to go from two weekly water changes ,to once a week which pleases me.
Don't need full on planted tank to provide benfit's that plant's such as the floating plant's mentioned,provide with regard to reducing the nitrates from source water and or those from end result of nitrification.


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## beetlebz

Ive been trying to colonize my 110g with floating ceratopteris cornuta for just this reason. The blackbeard algae is getting unbearable in the 110g, and adding algaefix to kill it makes the fish look sickly for a few days. I might just buy a square foot or two from my LFS next time im there to just cover the surface. Im getting aggravated having everything ive bought for that tank completely covered in bba.


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## ashtricks

@beetlebz: I can completely sympathize with you. I had bba break out in my 6 gallon. I ended up throwing away my plants, and drying my decor in the sun! 
Algaefix is a double edged sword. I stopped adding it a while back to control algae. It leaves dead algae all over the tank and it is hard to remove! Plus it reduces the oxygen level in the tank. Never treated bba with algaefix though.


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## AbbeysDad

Dern threadjackers! lol

So yesterday I went to Petsmart looking for a [short term] chemical intervention to temporarily reduce nitrates (since my previous three attempts using store bought water hasn't done much). My thinking is that the nitrate filter will take some time to cycle and begin removing nitrates (assuming success/fingers crossed). In the meantime the nitrates are too high. (Seachem Tech supports suggested I could begin to see nitrate reduction in as little as 7 days with Stability).
I was looking for Fluval Lab Series Nitrate Remover, but they didn't have any. The closest I could come is Fluval Clearmax which is supposed to adsorb phosphate, nitrite and NITRATE. I added all three packets xfered into an AC70 media bag. I just did a test this am and so far NOTHING (still have way high nitrates). I may need a 50% store bought water change!

I continue to add three capfuls of Stability each day (to continue through Friday). I have been pulling the siphon tube to add the Stability/water mix right into the new filter inlet. Although much will migrate to the tank, hopefully some will remain in the intended target. Don't know if this is any better than just adding to the tank.
This morning, there was a tiny snail on the end of the siphon tube. I may need to get some sponge over the tip.


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## beetlebz

well, I can certainly start work on my anaerobic canister filter addition, if the chemical route isnt working like you had hoped. Im interested to see whats going to happen with your matrix filter too. Ill wait for your results AD. By my research, even without the nitrate absorbent media, should do a phenomenal job of reducing nitrates. My only concern is that its 'too good' and it can cause some nasty side effects for the fish, chemically. I just remember reading that if the tank starts to smell funny (or bad) you need to remove some media or speed up the water flow. Either way, I have my fingers crossed for it's success


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## 1077

beetlebz said:


> Ive been trying to colonize my 110g with floating ceratopteris cornuta for just this reason. The blackbeard algae is getting unbearable in the 110g, and adding algaefix to kill it makes the fish look sickly for a few days. I might just buy a square foot or two from my LFS next time im there to just cover the surface. Im getting aggravated having everything ive bought for that tank completely covered in bba.


Might try tank blackout,snails,shrimp, and perform water changes at night,or let water set to off gas CO2 before using and see if this helps.(couldn't hurt)
Some say BBA is more a CO2 fluctuation problem, than lack of CO2, or poor flow in their high tech tanks.
They are much more knowledgeable than I, and often suggest the above ,along with cutting away or removing what they can.

My aplogies for straying from topic or any such infraction percieved.


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## AbbeysDad

1077 - 50 lashes with a cold wet fish <hehe>

Okay, back to the fray....skeptic that is me, I took the Fluval Clearmax out of my tank filter and set up a test.
In my other AC70, I set it up in my 2 gallon bucket and let it run for hours. I tested the water when I set it up and as I knew it would be, there was 60+ppm nitrates. So I let it run from about 9am and I just took another sample at 1:30pm and there was no difference!!! This product does not really remove nitrates as indicated on the box - I suppose if it removes nitrites, one could say it eliminates nitrates....but not REMOVE.
A fool and his money are soon parted.

Now Beetle, back to you saying I hope it (nitrate filter) isn't too good - I'm not sure what you mean.
Fresh water in nature has little/no nitrates. Reading between the lines, I think you may have been referencing more conventional de-nitrator reactors. Reactors that have a trickle output to starve the canister chamber of oxygen...if/when there is an anaerobic die off, there can be some pretty foul odors.
In this prototype with the Matrix and De*Nitrate products the flow rate is maintained at 3.5gph. The system is dependent on the macro pores of the media to create the oxygen depleted areas for anaerobic bacteria. 

I got some 'city' water today for my next water change. Looks like it has 10-20ppm nitrates. Maybe I should be looking for distilled or RO to get the tank level lower...or bite the bullet and get the tap water filter.
Seachem Tech support tells me I'll just need to be patient for the filter to (cycle) mature before it will begin to lower nitrates. (c'mon...fast food, fast cars, fast women...I gotta wait for a filter!?!? <hehe>
[all for now]


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## beetlebz

I was reading up the other day (and of course now I cant find the website) and I found a gentleman who had used sort of a homemade canister filter (as you did) using a commercial denitrifying media as an anaerobic biological filter medium. What he found was that the right media, the right flow, and the right application worked wonders, but so well that it produced hydrogen sulfide, which is toxic to the fish. 

I found it..
Detritrification - How to Remove Nitrates from Aquarium Water.

If you follow the link at the bottom in interestingly suggests that just placing lava rock in your tank as decoration can remove nitrates. Hrm... to think of all those ugly lava rocks I thought looked cool, then got tossed a few years later.


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## AbbeysDad

beetlebz said:


> If you follow the link at the bottom in interestingly suggests that just placing lava rock in your tank as decoration can remove nitrates. Hrm... to think of all those ugly lava rocks I thought looked cool, then got tossed a few years later.


That's what 'live rock' is all about in SW where nitrates are even more critical. Which brings us to another possibility and that is a deep sand bed. If you by chance have a tank with a sand substrate, 3" or so of sand should produce anaerobic conditions that may help.

Still Beetle, we shouldn't rule out Fluval Lab Series Nitrate Remover. I'm thinking it should work where the Clearmax failed. Worth a try?


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## AbbeysDad

beetlebz said:


> If you follow the link at the bottom in interestingly suggests that just placing lava rock in your tank as decoration can remove nitrates. Hrm... to think of all those ugly lava rocks I thought looked cool, then got tossed a few years later.


Btw, this is exactly the principal behind Matrix and De*Nitrate - but I'll bet you knew that


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## beetlebz

I have a hard time with the fluval nitrate remover. One 'dose' I suppose, removes 25ppm of nitrate per 50g. I would need 2 doses to reach the 100g, and two more to double that nitrate removal. And I would have to recharge it every week when I did a water change (although with less, id imagine). 

Im not going to lie to you, Im half tempted to go to petco or somewhere similar and see if I can score some lava rock. I need to dig in my buckets of fish stuff too, see if I have any left somewhere. That seems to me an easier experiment than a sand substrate (which I do not have atm). Im redoing the substrate in my 55g, but that tank is planted, so the nitrates trail off anyway.


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## AbbeysDad

beetlebz said:


> I have a hard time with the fluval nitrate remover. One 'dose' I suppose, removes 25ppm of nitrate per 50g. I would need 2 doses to reach the 100g, and two more to double that nitrate removal. And I would have to recharge it every week when I did a water change (although with less, id imagine).


Now here's the thing with nitrate reduction... I'm thinking that one of the biggest reasons for water changes is nitrates. Oh, I know, there's other 'crud' as Byron would say. And I don't disagree with that, however, I think a lot of the crud is decomposed like other waste into relatively inert components. Assuming we can better manage nitrates, and assuming good mechanical filtration and possibly the periodic use of carbon, who's to say that a 10% or 15% weekly water change isn't plenty? Maybe even less?
Now I was doing 50% water changes weekly just like clockwork...but one way or another, with the awareness of such high nitrates, that changes with my 'tap' water. 
...just thinking out loud.


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## beetlebz

I am envisioning a bucket style filter, but not only using an anaerobic media, but also a buffering one, as my water is way too soft. I will start gathering supplies for this adventure this week, though I suspect youre correct. If I can get my tanks stable, I see no reason to do more than a 10 or 15% water change weekly. I believe personally that the added 'gunk' that we will be removing less of, will ultimately be far more beneficial to the fish than a larger, less stable water change regiment. 

To be honest, of all the chemistry nightmares im dealing with at the moment, increased nitrates isnt very high on the list. However, multiple birds with one swoop might make me a happy boy. I was shocked today to learn that my planted 55g nitrates were just as high as my unplanted 110g, btw.


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## AbbeysDad

By bucket style, do you me like the DIY filters I've seen using a 3 or 5 gallon pail w/bulkheads and a power head/pump?
I'm surprised you have the same (high) nitrate level in the 100g planted tank as the other. Maybe more bio-load and/or more detritus in the substrate? The plants 'should' use at least some of the ammonia so it never gets to 'trites 'n 'trates, so something must be off.

Well tomorrow will make the 7 day mark for the new filter. I've been adding the (3 capfuls of) Stability to the inlet stream everyday. Seachem Tech support suggested I could begin seeing nitrate reduction in 7 days, but I think they might have been 'over selling' the products - it could be weeks (or not at all).

I took the filter down last night. I replaced the dispersion plate with a thinner version and filled with more product to just below the top enough for a filter pad - this gives me about 2" more product in the canister <see photo>
After setting back up I had a leak at the top. May have had a bit of filter pad intrusion in the seal. I took apart, made sure pad was down and applied a bit of petroleum jelly around the seal. water tight now.


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## beetlebz

and it hasnt done ANYTHING yet? Perhaps im being as optimistic as seachem lol but I would have thought you would see something happening by this point. OTOH it can take 8 weeks for nitrification bacteria to fully establish, maybe im not being fair.

But yeah, I mean something very similar to what you have built. I would just make mine wider, so it would work with the higher effluent flow from my canister filter.


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## AbbeysDad

Okay, here's the nitrate test from the tank (not the effluent) this am. It is still reading high, but it appears more translucent to me than previous tests. We must be patient weedhopper.

Okay, if you'll hook your bucket into your canister, you could use just Matrix which Seachem claims works at any flow rate. If you were to use De*Nitrate, the flow needs to be less than 50gph - some say 30gph is best.
Since these flow rates are so much higher than my Tom 3.5gph, I put the question to Seachem Tech support and they assured me they felt my setup would work well:

_Q: Hmm...I was just reading another thread here regarding a De*Nitrate reactor and Tech Support recommended a flow rate of 30-50gph. 
Am I way off base using the Tom (3.5gph) Aqua Lifter pump? (I was looking to keep the flow rate slow, but with matrix/de*nitrate, much faster than drip de-nitraters.
(60g tank, filter has 1 liter Matrix / 2 liters De*Nitrate)._

_A: Matrix works well at virtually any flow rate to allow for the colonization of beneficial bacteria. de*nitrate, because of the smaller size of the internal pores, functions more efficiently to remove nitrates at a flow rate of less than 50gph. I honestly think that your setup will work very well._


Footnotes: a couple of days ago my tank water looked dull. Not quite cloudy, but not clear. Today the water is crystal clear and some fish seem much more active. I might also mention that when I dumped the DIY filter last night, the water inside (which I reused) was very murky, like stuff is happening in there.


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## beetlebz

Well that is certainly encouraging! I would be curious to see what the actual flow is after passing through the airline and through the media. Not that I think it would be or can be problematic, just out of morbid curiosity. I, sir, am extremely interested in how this is going to turn out. 

Will I be seeing the "AD special nitrate removal canister filter" in drsfostersmith.com anytime soon? :lol:

you know as I think about it, Im wondering if the porous tightly packed nitrate media is filtering out particulates as well.


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## AbbeysDad

Oh, but with respect to Matrix in your bucket, remember that I had an AC70 loaded with 1.5 liters of Matrix at about 100gph and I don't believe it did much to reduce nitrates since my tank was about the same as my well.
Now I also had two 100ml packets of Purigen in my other AC70 so the removal of organics from the water may have limited the food source for any denitrifying bacteria. 
Also, I never used Stability before setting up this filter (which seeds aerobic, anaerobic and facultative bacteria's). Maybe I never really had much anaerobic activity?


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## beetlebz

How was the matrix in your ac70? Was it just laying in there, or in a bag in the grey media cage? Im wondering that if you had too much flow, with an open top, and the media just laying in the bucket, if it wasnt circulating through the media like it should have been? Just offering suggestions.

Food for thought, the saltwater folks that use AC70s for refugiums put AC20 impellers in them to slow the flow. Apparently they are direct swapouts.


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## AbbeysDad

beetlebz said:


> Well that is certainly encouraging! I would be curious to see what the actual flow is after passing through the airline and through the media. Not that I think it would be or can be problematic, just out of morbid curiosity. I, sir, am extremely interested in how this is going to turn out.


I believe it to be 3.5gph - remember the Tom pulls air or water and it's a vacuum canister - I can break the siphon, but it will restart automatically as the air is pumped out (really pretty cool).



beetlebz said:


> Will I be seeing the "AD special nitrate removal canister filter" in drsfostersmith.com anytime soon? :lol:


 Oh you laugh now...but this thing could be bigger than the pet rock! LOL



beetlebz said:


> you know as I think about it, Im wondering if the porous tightly packed nitrate media is filtering out particulates as well.


 A couple of factors. The siphon tube is high up in the tank where the water is clear. In the bottom of the filter, just above the dispersion plate, there is a filter pad. So I think particulate matter shouldn't get to the bio-media. And we don't really want crud to get into media pores as this would likely negatively affect the process. As a matter of fact, this media will likely require some periodic rinsing to remove bio-slime that may likely cover macro/micro pores.


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## AbbeysDad

beetlebz said:


> How was the matrix in your ac70? Was it just laying in there, or in a bag in the grey media cage? Im wondering that if you had too much flow, with an open top, and the media just laying in the bucket, if it wasnt circulating through the media like it should have been? Just offering suggestions.


 The grey media basket was installed, then the entire chamber was filled with Matrix. I had tried a bag, but made for unfilled space along the sides. Anyway, I believe the water flow (and re-circulation) through the media was as good as it gets in the AC70.



beetlebz said:


> Food for thought, the saltwater folks that use AC70s for refugiums put AC20 impellers in them to slow the flow. Apparently they are direct swapouts.


Sure, now you say something! However, like I said, according to seachem, Matrix works at any flow rate so 100gph should have been just fine. On the other hand, I have the feeling that slow flow rates are much more effective for bio-filtration.


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## beetlebz

Well, so far the buffering substrate I have added to my 55g (That I want to mix with the denitrifying biomedia) is working (albeit slowly). Have you had any positive showing from your filter? Im itching to start on mine


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## AbbeysDad

Unfortunately I have no miracle to report. I did a partial water change of 20g on Friday with some city water. Sadly the city water was 10-20ppm so it had little, if any, nitrate reduction on my tank. 

I just tested the effluent and it is a good 40ppm, so I guess the filter is going to need more time to mature and we need to be patient.

Really, my hope is that the filter can ultimately manage tank generated nitrates and this current high level from my well needs to be brought down. With this in mind, since several partial water changes with purchased and hauled water has done very little, I went ahead and ordered 2 of the Fluval Lab Series Nitrate Remover. I also bit the bullet and ordered the API Tap Water filter. 

If I can manage low tank nitrates, I think I can cut back to say 10g WWC's or so and still have high quality water - however, I don't want to use my well water with such high nitrates - I'm thinking I'll use filtered water or a mix. IF my filter eats nitrates for breakfast, maybe I can use just my water, but I'm thinking that the modest use of filtered water probably makes more sense. In addition to removing nitrates, the tap water DI filter is also designed to remove other potential negatives (a somewhat long list), so it will be good on many levels.
My only concerns are reports of short filter cartridge life and the filtering process plus hauling 5g bottles of water.

Perhaps the next DIY project is to run a supply line and drain and use a trickle flow through the API filter to the tank - LOL


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## zof

Might look and lowering your flow through the nitrate filter to help reduce the oxygen levels even further to promote the growth of the bacteria, also whats your pH?


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## AbbeysDad

zof said:


> Might look and lowering your flow through the nitrate filter to help reduce the oxygen levels even further to promote the growth of the bacteria, also whats your pH?


Thanks. It's an option, however, I think I want to give it a chance at the 3.5gph. Seachem claims the media works~ Matrix at any flow, de*nitrite at flow rates less than 50gph. After reading a fellow that had success at 30gph (7 foot/4" tube), I questioned Seachem Tech support if my flow was too slow. They thought my setup with the Tom at 3.5gph would work well.
When you look at it, there is a lot of product in this filter and all things considered, it may take some time before the beneficial bacteria gets established in numbers large enough to do all that's required. Granted, the Stability should have kick started things. However, Since I tore the system down three weeks ago and had been using Purigen just prior to setting this up, the water column needs to develop some character to feed the bacteria. I also feel I need to get nitrates lower in order to truly measure the filters performance.
Like many things bio related in aquariums, I/we need to be patient.


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## AbbeysDad

As near as I can tell from the high/low API tests, my pH is about 7.6.


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## beetlebz

I agree. It can take 8 weeks for nitrification bacteria to become established, why shouldnt denitrifying bacteria? Personally, im willing to wager that after several weeks (6-8) you will have to remove some media. Now taking bets... :lol:


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## AbbeysDad

I'm not sure what you mean about removing media? 
According to the labels, Seachem claims that for both Matrix and De*Nitrate 1 liter treats 100 gallons. Okay, so my DIY filter has a mixture of 3.5~ liters of product... So for my 60g tank, technically, I have way more than enough media to do the job. On the other hand, the bacteria population rises and falls based on the conditions (food and oxygen [or lack thereof]) regardless of media volume. I shouldn't need to remove any media, so put me down for a dollar bet ;-)


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## zof

I think it was sarcastic, well I hope so cause I have about 200 gallons of media in my 90 gallon setup and I actually have some matrix in there.


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## beetlebz

Not at all. I have read a few times that over denitrifying can create h2s, which is toxic.


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## AbbeysDad

beetlebz said:


> Not at all. I have read a few times that over denitrifying can create h2s, which is toxic.


Better share a link homeboy cause I think yer blowin wacky tobacky smoke.


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## AbbeysDad

zof said:


> I think it was sarcastic, well I hope so cause I have about 200 gallons of media in my 90 gallon setup and I actually have some matrix in there.


Say what? So how do you get 200 gallons of media in a 90 gallon tank?... and why would you want to?


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## zof

Lol! not actually volume of filter material, just its filtration capacity.


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## beetlebz

the same link as i posted back in this thread. The guy had too much anaerobic media and the filter was producing h2s. ill find the link tomorrow


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## AbbeysDad

zof said:


> Lol! not actually volume of filter material, just its filtration capacity.


Ah, okay, so yer not a wizard after all! ;-)


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## AbbeysDad

beetlebz said:


> the same link as i posted back in this thread. The guy had too much anaerobic media and the filter was producing h2s. ill find the link tomorrow


Found it:
_Here's Nevin pointing to the third denitrifier that he built. This denitrifier is again contained in a 5-gallon plastic utility bucket. The water is pumped from the system into the bottom of the bucket and flows upwards through the denitrifying media. Near the top of the bucket is a threaded plastic L-fitting that screws into the bucket and connects to a piece of clear plastic tubing that returns the water to the system. This denitrifier is now working too well and removing all the nitrates, which may force some bacteria to use sulfates and produce hydrogen sulfide. When Tom inspected the system, he noticed a smell that my be partially hydrogen sulfide. The solution may be to remove some of the denitrifying media in the bucket. Incidentally, on the left in this photo is a commercial bio-wheel filter. _

Tom and Nevin Bailey (I presume no relation!) also claim that we want to maintain 20-40ppm nitrates in the system. This seems curious to me since in nature, unless polluted, fresh water has little/no nitrates. I wonder why would we want 20-40ppm nitrates in out tanks when we've all heard <20ppm (lower the better) is best?

I've studied many denitrator systems and this is the only place I've seen with such a claim or caution. I am uncertain what happens with the rise and fall of nutrients and/or available nitrates. I know that hydrogen sulfide can be created in deep substrates if/when detritus gets down there, however, it's presumed that this typically does not cause harm in the aquarium. Also, in the case of this filter, since the discharge is above the aquarium water level, any gases should release before re-entering the tank.
I/we can't measure sulfides, so I don't know how we could possibly judge any media volume relativity.
I'm thinking I/we just move forward and see how it goes.

I'm hopeful I'll receive the Nitrate Remover and API filter today as it reached my local post office yesterday. I have a 15g bottled water change ready and will do that just before adding the nitrate remover product. I'll also give the filter another shot of Stability.


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## beetlebz

youre going to take apart the filter again? fiddlesticks lol let her ride!

If you let h2s off gas into the room its just as bad for you as it is for fish! h2s is a fairly nasty gas that in any concentration will cause you issues. From wiki: "Hydrogen sulfide is a highly toxic and flammable gas (flammable range: 4.3–46%). Being heavier than air, it tends to accumulate at the bottom of poorly ventilated spaces. Although very pungent at first, it quickly deadens the sense of smell, so potential victims may be unaware of its presence until it is too late. For safe handling procedures, a hydrogen sulfide material safety data sheet (MSDS) should be consulted". Its nasty nasty stuff, I cant imagine what it would do to your poor fish.

Im almost thinking thats why they aim for 20ppm. Most people agree that 20ppm nitrates arent terrible for the fish, yet 0ppm could be in the danger zone for producing h2s. Just food for thought. Id rather have a few nitrates, personally. I am all for sticking to your guns and going forward, I just feel that it wouldnt be prudent to ignore the potential dangers (to your fish, if nothing else) of creating a 0 nitrate environment.

juuuuust saying. $.02


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## AbbeysDad

From the Seachem Website for Stability:

_The bacteria strains in Stability® have been in development for over a decade. The necessary conditions for growth of our bacterial strains encompass a very broad range. When other bacteria begin to die off (usually from high organic loads caused by the undetected death of an organism), Stability® simply works harder and grows faster! The strains function in fresh or saltwater. Stability® contains both nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria, a blend found in no other product. Additionally, Stability® contains facultative bacterial strains which are able to adapt to either aerobic or anaerobic conditions. *The bacteria in Stability® are non-sulfur fixing, another innovation in the industry. Most other bacterial supplements will form toxic hydrogen sulfide under the proper conditions. Stability® will not, ever.*_

Set fears aside weedhopper!

NO I did not take the DIY filter apart. 
My order arrived. I did a 15g partial water change and installed 1 of the Fluval Lab Series Nitrate Remover in the AquaClear 70 filter. I added another 6 capfuls of stability along with some filter sponge squeezings direct into the DIY filter inlet tube.

I put together and setup the API Tap Water filter to make some DI water for the next water change. Need to study up to see if I need to add electro-right and/or pH adjuster that came with the filter.

I'll do a nitrite test later or tomorrow and report back.


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## AbbeysDad

Correction: In the last sentence of my previous post I wrote that I would test nitrites when of course I meant nitrAtes.


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## AbbeysDad

Update: 24 hours after doing the 15g (bottled) water change and adding the Fluval Nitrate Remover, the tank nitrates have stabilized at around 20~ppm! 
I removed the nitrate remover and have started the regeneration (salt water bath) process. I will regenerate for 24-48 hours. It will be interesting to see what happens to tank nitrates during this period.


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## beetlebz

sorry I havnt been following, been a crazy busy week. 

this is certainly exciting news. How does the fluval stuff come? in a pillow? And did you recharge it just because or was it exhausted after 24 hours? Was that nitrate reading from the outflow of your filter or just the aquarium? So many questions. So little typing space.


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## AbbeysDad

The Fluval Nitrate Remover comes in a small plastic jar. The resin is sealed in plastic but includes a media bag/sock to use in the filter. I left it in the filter until the tank nitrates appeared to stabilize (weren't coming down any more), suggesting it was exhausted (remember I had very high nitrates). Nitrates remained at this 20~ppm level for two days after the product was removed. It's unclear if the nitrate filter is doing much for nitrates yet (trouble is the color difference on the chart between 10 and 20, like the difference between 40 and 80 are difficult to differentiate).

This afternoon (1pm) I did another 15g (deionized) water change and re-added the recharged Nitrate Remover to further bring the nitrates down. I just did a nitrate test (9pm) and nitrates are at about 5ppm!
As before, I will probably remove the fluval nitrate remover after 24 hrs.


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## beetlebz

How many times can you recharge that stuff? It only says "several times". You might be hitting the nail on the head with this one. My tap nitrates are significantly lower than yours were, which could make a weekly application of the nitrate remover a very real possibility. I still think I would prefer the continuous operation of a filter, but beggars cant be choosers. Im sick of losing fish inexplicably (or I should say for lack of another possibility).


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## AbbeysDad

I don't know how many times is 'several' or if the nitrate adsorbtion capability diminishes with each recharge. I have put the question to Hagen and we'll see what comes back.

I realize using this product relative to the thread focus of the DIY Nitrate filter may seem like a cheat. On the other hand, imagine trying to get a bio-filter going with a tank full of ammonia. My hope is to get nitrates down so the filter can manage tank generated nitrates (rather than chop down the nitrate redwood of my well water!).

I think you're right Beetle, with good tank/filter maintenance, modest water changes and the periodic use of products like purigen, activated carbon, and nitrate remover, it could be smooth sailing.

I'm [still] betting with the above and my nitrate filter, I'll be able to have less frequent & less volume water changes and have a better water chemistry than ever before in the process.

I'm excited to see what tomorrow and the next few weeks results will be!!!!!


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## AbbeysDad

Yesterday morning I tested nitrates at 8am and they were 5ppm. At 4pm, still at 5ppm so I removed the Fluval Nitrate Remover.
I tested at 9am this morning and nitrates are still at 5ppm.

From here forward, it's just a waiting game to see what happens with nitrates.

Seachems bit on de*nitrate:

_For best results, de*nitrate™ should be placed to assure the flow of water through it, such as in a canister filter, chemical filtration module, or box filter. Flow rate should not exceed 200 L (50 gallons*) per hour. If higher flow rates are unavoidable, use Matrix™ or Pond Matrix™. It is best to rinse off dust before use. *Once de*nitrate™ has been in use for several days, nitrate concentrations should start to fall and level off gradually at a concentration of about 4–5 mg/L as nitrate.* As long as nitrate concentrations remain under control, the product is not exhausted. Each 500 mL of de*nitrate™ treats about 100–200 L (25–50 gallons*), depending on initial nitrate concentration and the current biological load. Enough should be used to remove nitrate at a rate at least as fast as the rate of formation. If very high nitrates are initially present, they should be brought down to less than 20 mg/L with water changes._

Unlike commercial systems that use routine injections of nutrient (vodka) solutions and boast zero nitrates, perhaps the best this system can do is to maintain 5ppm (which would still be great anyway!) We'll have to see what happens in the coming weeks. 
I'll do my best to keep a running log here for inquiring minds ;-)

Oh, almost forgot...I kept getting tiny snails partially plugging the air line (water) inlet siphon tube. I dug out another regular filter inlet tube (from an old AquaTech 15/30 filter), pushed the air line tube through the 'U' and covered the inlet strainer with a Fluval pre-filter sponge.


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## AbbeysDad

Hagen's answer to Fluval Lab Series Nitrate Remover recharging:


The Question:
Followup question. Since the Clearmax did not work I ordered and see success with Fluval Lab Series Nitrate Remover. The documentation indicates that the product can be recharged in salt water 'several' times. About how many times is several and does the nitrate adsorbtion capability diminish with each recharge? Your response appreciated.


The Answer:

The Fluval Nitrate Remover resin (FNR) can and should be recharged until the ion exchange capacity significantly drops. This can be assessed with a nitrate measurement before adding FNR and up to three days after. Since there is no visible change in the resin appearance, the only way to really define the efficiency of the recharges is to test both before and after. 

What fouls the resin and makes it inefficient at removing the nitrate is that a fine organic and bacterial biofilm will obstruct the micropores of the resin. So, leaving the FNR the shortest amount of time possible into the filter and immediately recharging it into brine will prolong the effective life of the resin.

After recharging cycle is done (the brines stays colourless), leave the resin in fresh brine.

It is best to use the nitrate remover for a short period of time, using a nitrate test kit to determine when the media has been fully loaded, as there is no actual physical appearance change. Then recharge it immediately to prevent the growth of organic microfilm over the pores. Once the nitrate remover is recharged to cpacity, leaving the brine colourless when added, then move the media into a fresh brine solution for storage until required.
Thank you,
Sharon Emond
Customer Service Dept.
Rolf C. Hagen (USA) Corp.


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## AbbeysDad

*Another experiment*

So for my fine well water, my new API Tap Water Filter is only going to yield about 50 gallons per cartridge. At $25 per cartridge, that's $.50 a gallon. Half the price of store bought bottled water and so that's 'okay' although I had hoped for more. But then I had another thought. DI water is great, but all I really need to do (as far as I know right now) is to remove the nitrates from my well water. I wondered, what if I modified a spent API filter cartridge to only include the Fluval Nitrate Remover (FNR) resin? I put the question to Hagen and they said it might work but they had never tested the product that way and for a single pass trickle through, it would require a lot of resin...
So then I wondered, what if I set up a 5g pail with a small filter with the FNR and ran it for a few hours.
I had a spare AquaTech 5/15 filter so I set it up. I double checked the nitrates to confirm the 60+ppm and let it run (see photo). I'll report the results later.

Note: One might ask the question why not just do a water change and use the FNR in the tank filter? Hagen support indicated that the product should not remain in a tank filter very long as the pores of the resin become clogged with bio-film that brine solution may not remove and it will shorten the product use life. I asked if the resin would hold up to a 50/50 bath of chlorine and water (recharge for seachem purigen) and they answered "we don't recommend bleach for anything going in an aquarium". (I guess they don't get that chlorine can be treated). Anyway, if my experiment pans out, it's a way to filter out nitrates, avoiding a bio-film problem, extending the use life of the FNR product while providing an additional source of fresh, nitrate free water.


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## AbbeysDad

The experiment: by evening the nitrates were down to 10ppm from 60+ppm. I let run through the night and this am the nitrates are 0-5ppm. So the process is feasible, but perhaps not all that practical all things considered.


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## beetlebz

so let me see if I understand this. The FNR will last theoretically forever provided the pores of the resin media does not become clogged with muck. As a means of avoiding this muck, you are treating the CLEAN water before it goes into your tank in the first place, removing nitrates and not accumulating tank muck, thus extending the life of the FNR. The downside, would be you can only make 5 gallons at a time. Unless you got another cheap filter and more FNR. Even 5 gallons per day I could make work with my fish room, And it would give me an excuse to spend more time there :lol:

im STILL leaning towards your anaerobic bio filter (long term) but for the moment this is a fascinating prospect


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## AbbeysDad

I can't say it will last forever, only that it should last much longer. I got this idea after e-mails with Sharon Emond, customer service for Hagen. When I asked her about the claim that the FNR could be recharged in brine several times and I asked "About how many times is several?" A couple of facts came to light not mentioned in any of the product documentation. Her answer was rather vague in that she indicated the only way to tell is measuring nitrates before, during and after product use to determine if it is exhausted. 
She mentioned that the product use life is often reduced when the resin pores become clogged with dissolved organics and bio slime. She recommended that the product remain in the aquarium filter only long enough to remove the nitrates, then it should be recharged, then stored for next use in fresh brine solution.
So, it only makes sense that the product use life should logically be extended if/when it only sees fresh water.
I just did a 10g water change, 5g FNR filtered water and 5g DI water.

Also *regarding the DIY nitrate filter*, my 60g tank has been *stable @10ppm nitrates* for a week now. I was hoping to get to 5ppm (could still happen), but 10ppm ain't bad! Even using Stability, we're only 3-4 weeks in with this filter. I believe in the media because it shares characteristics much like live rock (SW), but I think it is a slow process to build a sufficient anaerobic colony. 

I'm thinking of adding a secondary canister (much like the first) filled with pool filter sand for ultimate filtration. (so water would flow from the tank, through the bio-nitrate Matrix/De*Nitrate, then through the sand and back to the tank. (the only out of pocket cost is for another lock 'n lock canister I've ordered.)


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## AbbeysDad

*Officially over the top*

I setup the old spare 10g in the garage to FNR (Fluval Nitrate Remover) filter fresh water for water changes (plan to use 50/50 with DI water as this extends DI filter life and balances water chemistry).

Tank nitrates had been holding at about 10ppm. I'm not convinced that the nitrate filter is doing this as the floating anacharis plants are doing very well and may be grabbing their share of ammonia and nitrates.
I have since added 12 young fry from the fry tank that are now big enough not to be lunch. All fish are doing well now that nitrates are reduced! The water is very clear.

In the interest of greater filtration and perhaps even lower nitrates, I added another canister with well washed pool filter sand. The canister setup is the same as the nitrate filter. The one difference is I used a hot glue gun to secure the fittings in the top instead of silicone.
The water (siphon) flows into the bottom of the nitrate (Matrix/De*nitrate) filter up through the media and out the top, over to the top of the sand filter chamber, down through the sand and out the bottom back to the tank.

(Note: the AquaClear 70 filter is setup with sponge, carbon and floss and is set to lowest flow <100 gph.)


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## AbbeysDad

Correction - after a day or so I noticed a bulge in the top of the sand canister. Apparently trapped air and/or gases. When I unhooked the hoses there was a large rush of 'air'. 
I reversed the flow through the sand so the Tom pump is pulling from the top of the canister. I realize now that this is the only way for this to work properly without some kind of venting (which could cause leaking).


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## beetlebz

Id personally like to see the filters separated once they have both had a chance to mature for a month or two so the nitrates in and out could be tested independently. My 110g is almost completely covered now with water sprite and so far the nitrates are still 'blood red'. Stupid tap water. I need to recheck my 20 long planted, ive opted for 2 small water changes a week instead of 1 big one every week or every other week to see if that would help too, ill test it tonight to see what comes up. So far, just plants to remove nitrates has been a bust :-(


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## skelator

i havent noticed any difference in plants helping yet either. if there is a difference its almost nothing as of now.


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## AbbeysDad

*Well the sand filter canister was a bust* as the flow rate through it slowed to nearly nothing. I suspect that with time and the slow (3.5gph) pump flow rate, the dense sand packed and if not plugged, severely restricted the flow. I tried a smaller canister with <= half the amount of sand, but after a couple of hours the flow reduced to drops again.
In thinking of what else might work, sponge came to mind, but I don't have enough on hand for that. Pot scrubbers, gravel?
Instead, I filled the canister with polyester fiber floss which should provide a satisfactory platform for beneficial bacteria and serve to polish the water before returning to the tank. 
With all of the swapping, one of the siliconed "T" 's in the original canister came loose, so I redid both fittings with the glue gun.


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## skelator

thats why i didnt use sand, that was my fear aswell. i just went with regular gravel as i had alot of it onhand. i dont know if i wasted my time and money as of yet its still very new. i figure worst case i can do dump some floss in there like you did.


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## AbbeysDad

skelator said:


> thats why i didnt use sand, that was my fear aswell. i just went with regular gravel as i had alot of it onhand. i dont know if i wasted my time and money as of yet its still very new. i figure worst case i can do dump some floss in there like you did.


Sand seemed like a good second stage. Not so sure the filter floss won't also restrict flow when it begins to load with 'stuff'. I may need something else like more open cell foam???

Gravel could work, but I think the flow rate would need to be very slow I think. The point of the Matrix and De*Nitrate is the macro/miro pores that may encourage anaerobic bacteria with faster (than trickle) flow rates.


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## skelator

i would have liked to use bio balls but i didnt have any and i was impatient. i read alot on the subject and from what ive read theres no reason the gravel shouldnt work but that remains to be seen.


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## AbbeysDad

Although bio balls are good for aerobic bacteria in a wet/dry sump to handle ammonia and nitrites, I don't think they'd be a good choice in a denitrator. You're better off with gravel or some other material that serves as a platform as there is much more surface area. 
(The Aquapure for example uses open cell foam - 4 tiers, coarse to very fine).
Still, with gravel, I think you'll need a trickle flow through there the get the oxygen level low enough to support anaerobic bacteria.


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## skelator

too bad i couldnt get my hands on that foam thay use. i also wouldnt mine feeding the coil if i coukd figure a way to do it without getting air into the system.


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## AbbeysDad

skelator said:


> too bad i couldnt get my hands on that foam thay use. i also wouldnt mine feeding the coil if i coukd figure a way to do it without getting air into the system.


You indicated you were using gravel - where does "feeding the coil" fit in?


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## AbbeysDad

Not really happy with the filter floss in the secondary canister, I got some AC70 foam (which fits really well) and re-setup the filter.


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## AbbeysDad

Just a quick update. Although the filter seems to be handling ammonia and nitrites fine, there is no evidence that it is processing nitrates. I added a valve and have reduced the flow through the chambers.


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## beetlebz

Unfortunately life has been busy lately preventing my incessant foruming  I'm happy to see you have not given up on the nitrate filter AD! Keep up the good fight hehe

Anywhoo which filter isn't showing a difference; the floss filter the matrix filter or did you mean the whole thing isn't reducing nitrates? That's sad but I'm not really surprised unfortunately. I'm still battling heater issues at the moment. Someday...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AbbeysDad

Actually Beetle, the second canister is mostly sponge (same type as in my AC70 filter) it just has 1" or so of polyester filter floss at the top (you missed the change). The water runs through the matrix/de*nitrate canister first, then right through the sponge filter. My thinking here was to have the bacteria in the first canister have first crack at any dissolved organics (food) and then polish it off in the second canister. Although one might visualize that at some point, the second canister may contain beneficial bacteria as well.
The effluent that I check is the water returning to the tank (which has gone through both canisters). 
According to Seachem, I should have seen lower nitrate results by now. But after adding the additional fish (large fry), the nitrates climbed to the point that I used FNR again to bring them down some. 
I've used plenty of Stability. 
If slowing the flow rate doesn't produce results (given some more time) I'm uncertain what the next steps will be.

AD


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## beetlebz

well thats certainly frustrating, and bassackwards from what I had expected weeks and weeks ago when you announced that you were building this filter. From the reading i had done (especially the stuff about lava rocks) I figured by now the nitrates would be gone, and in their place would be a black hole sucking in fish, gravel, and time. But no such luck. Ill get back to the books, hopefully I will be able to figure out not only how to make it work, but why it didnt in the first place. Im no rocket whiz, but I have a hard time understanding why that filter isnt producing H2S in WMD quantities.


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## AbbeysDad

Well Beetle, before you went all spacial, I was just looking to create nitrate eating nano bots! I haven't given up yet, but clearly the road to zero nitrates is not a super highway, but more like a back country loggin road in a beat up pickup!

I was doing some research on the Seachem forum and came across a fella that used a ton of product and just when he had all but given up, it started working for him.
I think the development of anaerobic bacteria, especially in the matrix/de*nitrate media is a very slow process...much slower than the Seachem folks suggest.


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## AbbeysDad

I went back to the Seachem discussion forum to recap this project and ask for advice. 
(About 8 weeks into this now and I was expecting to see some results before now).
They advised that I had plenty of product, the reduction in flow was likely good to promote anaerobic bacteria development, and that at this point, I just need to wait for the bacteria to develop enough to handle the bio-load.
So...on it goes.


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## AbbeysDad

skelator said:


> where did you find that type of sponge material that you are using?


It's the standard sponge for an Aquaclear 70 filter.


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## skelator

where did you find that type of sponge material that you are using?


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## skelator

i made another setup today. this one is a 4"X2' piece of pvc. i think im gonna fill it with matrix and de-nitrate. i may fill one tube with one and one with the other. my first tube is 3'x2'. 

i would think this should absolutly work the flow would befinatly be under the 50gph that they reccomend.


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## skelator

have you noticed any change whatsoever in nitrates comming from the diy filter?


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## AbbeysDad

skelator said:


> have you noticed any change whatsoever in nitrates comming from the diy filter?


I just tested the effluent and the tank water and can not detect any real color difference between the two. I'm convinced it's handling ammonia and nitrites, but can see no resulting evidence of anaerobic bacteria processing/reducing nitrates.
I lamented to Seachem Tech support recently that after 8 weeks I expected to see some, even slight results. (Going in they said that with my setup and using their Stability product, I should begin seeing nitrate reduction in a couple of weeks!)
They could only offer that the reduction in flow should help and I just need more time for the bacteria to develop. 

In all fairness, I may be guilty of a minor foot shot. The overall objective was/is to get and keep tank nitrates low. I added anacharis floating plants (which seem to be growing very well). After a few weeks, I began using activated carbon and Purigen in the AC70 filter. I've been careful with feeding. Water changes have been 10g weekly (60g tank) with a 50/50 mix of treated DI water and FNR filtered water (nitrates < 5ppm). The water change has included gravel vacuuming. 
Much of this reduces dissolved organic compounds which ultimately reduces nitrates, HOWEVER, it also reduces the food supply for the various bacteria. 
Perhaps inadvertently, I slowed the bacteria development process?


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## skelator

i looked into peoples reviews on both the matrix and specificly the denitrate. pretty much everyone said the denitrate really works. 

i understand the bacteria need to grow in the matrtix before it realy starts to do anything so i really wouldnt expect anything from that for some time. honestly im not really sure what denitrate actually is but mosty people claimed results fairly quickly. 

the filter i made is just full of regular aquarium gravel. its been up since 3/28 i believe and the entire time the flow has been 40-60 drops per minute. my tank water tests 0 nitrites and my efforts appear to be helping with the nitrates. my effluent tests a bright purple color for nitrites and the nitrate is much higher than my tank. so i assume something is going on inside my diy filter. i got the bigger one ready to go ill prolly just hook it up inline with the other one. i just gotta decide if its worth the money to order the matrix and denitrate


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## AbbeysDad

Actually Matrix and De*Nitrate are exactly the same porous media, the de*nitrate is just smaller is all. According to Seachem, de*nitrate only works for nitrates at flow rates <=50gph while matrix works at any flow rate (the larger size allows anaerobic bacteria to be further inside, where oxygen is starved). They both work for ammonia and nitrites at any flow rate.
In my case, 1.5 liter of matrix was in play in my AC70 filter for months before I combined it with 2 liters of de*nitrate for this filter attempt. It never seemed to develop anaerobic bacteria on it's own which is why I added stability in this attempt.

It seems very odd that you'd have such high nitrites in your effluent, with none in your tank...and with such high nitrites in the filter, where are the nitrates coming from - maybe things will settle out - right now it sounds like it hasn't fully cycled.


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## Alan8100

AbbeysDad said:


> Ref: High Nitrates in tap (well) water
> 
> I live in the country and right across the road is 95 acres of crop land that gets organic and chemical fertilizers... which translates into high nitrates in my well water. I don't really want to buy water for water changes or if I do, I'd want to scale back the volume or frequency and still have good water chemistry.
> I studied the Aquaripure, but it's a little expensive for my 60g tank and the high nitrates I have.
> 
> So what follows is my DIY attempt at a nitrate filter using Seachem Matrix and Seachem De*Nitrate.
> The container is a basic lock top kitchen canister:


Done nice job there....my friends tell me about this to see and
i see is really good....good for taking ideas.
I appreciate you...


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## AbbeysDad

Alan8100 said:


> Done nice job there....my friends tell me about this to see and
> i see is really good....good for taking ideas.
> I appreciate you...


Alan - welcome to TFK!

Thank-you, but so far the filter has not been successful in reducing nitrates. The anaerobic bacteria has not seemed to populate the Matrix/De*Nitrate media. I have now reduced the flow through the canisters to mere drops per minute (probably a drop per second or so). I'm hoping the reduced flow will starve the canisters of oxygen to promote the anaerobic bacteria growth.


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## skelator

i set up my other pvc filter today. it holds exactly 4 liters of denitrate. mines pumps water in the bottom and out the very top. the flow rate is 10gph with the pump at the bottom of the tank. i still have my original one running aswell. i decided not to run them in series. i also got the effluent from my original filter going into a 5 gal bucket as the nitrite and nitrate are off the charts when it leaves the filter for some reason. that filter prolly has 30 drips per minute if that. 

im going to just let them both go and see what happens. i have 4 liters of matrix and 1more liter of denitrate should i decide to dump out filter #1 as it is just filled with aquarium gravel.


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## skelator

one other thing i wanted to mention its kinda related i suppose. ive been growing some pothos ivy in my hob filter and i have some just sticking in the water here and there. this thing is growing like mad. i have some of the same plant growing in regular water and there is no comparison. it has to be feeding well off the tank. i actually really like the look of it on there too.


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## AbbeysDad

I think several separate bio-filters is potentially counter productive. You need a good colony of aerobic bacteria to use up the oxygen so anaerobic bacteria can thrive later in the flow in the chamber. If there is not enough of one, the other can't exist so spreading colonies out in separate filters may create an issue.

Also, Seachem warns that very high nitrates will inhibit anaerobic bacteria development. I'm not understanding why your one affluent is off the charts in nitrites and nitrates - what do you account for that?

Edit: Oh and I'm not sure you want the pump down on the bottom where detritus can get pulled in - you really don't want that - much better to pull water from near the top of the tank.


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## skelator

honestly i have no idea what the first filters effluent is totally different than the water in the tank. somethings going on in there dunno if its good or bad lol. this was meant as a denitrate coil. it had 50' of tubing aswell. 

the pumps have botht the pumps in a whisper bio bag that i sewn shut. i could raise it to the top if need be. i just put it at the bottom so i can hide it.


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## AbbeysDad

skelator said:


> the pumps have botht the pumps in a whisper bio bag that i sewn shut. i could raise it to the top if need be. i just put it at the bottom so i can hide it.


okay as long as the water is pre-filtered so as not to crud up the media.


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## skelator

i called seachem today and spoke with them for quite a while. they seem to think the gravel i put in my first filter had some crap in it causing the crazy numbers in nitrite and nitrate in my effluent. 

i went ahead and dumped it out rinsed it real well. i added a liter of denitrate and about 1 1/3 liters of matrix. its flowing just under 10 gph. i may try to get the flow higher but im going to leave it for now. 

i asked them specificly if a tank can have too much bio filtration. she said absolutly not the more thats there the better off the tank will be. 

ill prolly pick up some stability and dose for a week as they reccomend. they said its not necessary but it would speed up the process.


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## AbbeysDad

skelator said:


> i asked them specificly if a tank can have too much bio filtration. she said absolutly not the more thats there the better off the tank will be.


I wasn't talking about the volume of media, but rather the different filters. John Strawn of Aquaripure once reported that one of his customers couldn't get his new aquaripure filter to work because he refused to discontinue his other previous bio-filter - so the aquaripure filter never cycled. May or may not be an issue with this media at these faster flow rates, but is a possible consideration.


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## skelator

they knew my exact setup. they encouraged me to use everything i got and said it would all work well. 

anything from aquaripure i take with a grain of salt. its this guys claim to fame so hes always gonna find a reason it didnt work. 

we shall see if i get anywhere or not. so far im gaining on it with more water changes less feeding and added plants. i was 20-30 ish nitrate today


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## AbbeysDad

skelator said:


> they knew my exact setup. they encouraged me to use everything i got and said it would all work well.


LOL - that's what I heard too...
General Discussion - Seachem Support Forums


Edit:


skelator said:


> anything from aquaripure i take with a grain of salt. its this guys claim to fame so hes always gonna find a reason it didnt work.


Actually it makes sense when you think it through...if you have an established bio-filter in an established tank, it's already handling all of the ammonia and nitrate there is...right? So add another bio-filter, but there's no ammonia or nitrite for the aerobic bacteria to further colonize...and without the aerobic bacteria to use up the oxygen in the conventional denitrate filter, the anaerobic bacteria don't develop to process nitrates either. 
Much like live rock, even Matrix/de*nitrate rely on aerobic bacteria on the surface of the media to deplete the oxygen so anaerobic bacteria can develop within the pores... so you see the potential catch 22 here. Seems logical that one big bio denitrate filter is better than numerous separate ones.


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## skelator

yeah ive followed that ongoing discussion for quite a while now. hopefully your filter gets working soon.


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## AbbeysDad

Just a quick update, Following some flow problems I discontinued the secondary sponge canister so the flow is just through the Matrix/De*Nitrate canister.


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## beetlebz

How goes the good fight AD? Im assuming as a direct correlation my panda cories in my 20 long all died after a couple weeks of not getting their routine seachem prime dose. Just leads me to wonder if youve had further success in the last couple weeks :lol:


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## AbbeysDad

beetlebz said:


> How goes the good fight AD? Im assuming as a direct correlation my panda cories in my 20 long all died after a couple weeks of not getting their routine seachem prime dose. Just leads me to wonder if youve had further success in the last couple weeks :lol:


Hey Beetle - thought I lost ya! welcome back to nitrate city 

Well, your post prompted me to test the effluent which I haven't bothered doing in a long time. While I'm waiting for the results, I'll recap.

To make 'good' water for water changes, 1) I setup a 10g in the garage to filter water using the Fluval Lab Series Nitrate Remover. This gets my off the chart well water down to 5ppm nitrates; abd 2) I also make deionized water using the API Tap Water filter. The DI water requires minerals and pH balance so I'm using Seachem Replenish and Neutral/Alkaline Regulators. I mix these 50/50 to do a 10g weekly water change on my 60g tank.
In order to facilitate the reduced volume water changes (which have been in effect for 3 months now) I am periodically using activated carbon and Seachem Purigen. I also have a pouch of API Nitra-Zorb in there from time to time to keep nitrates at bay. To ensure ample trace elements, I'm adding Seachem Fresh Trace with each water change and am [still] using Prime here and there.

Okay, the timer rang and the effluent test is in and it's 10-20ppm, so there is little indication that the bio denitrate filter is handling nitrates. <colorful adjectives go here!> I believe it's handling ammonia and nitrites...but anaerobic bacteria are being stubborn.
I'm going to cut the flow back to mere drips and see what happens in time.

So I haven't given up, but this is far from the slam dunk I hoped it would be.

AD


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## beetlebz

sad story  worse still, in the last few weeks im racking up the list quickly of fish that cant handle the nitrates. Lost all of my new green tiger barbs after a few months in my 110g (had temp problems too, though), all of my panda cories bit the dust in a similarly timely fashion in my 20g, and I have a missing BN plec. Oh, and my flying fox wasnt more than a year (or less) for this world. Im sure there are alot of factors playing in, but it seems suspect that within a month of no longer dosing prime every other day in my 20 long my cories start dropping like flies...

fortunately my cichlids are all doing well, especially my 110g with my rotkeil efaciatus in my watery acid (I decided that below a PH of 5.5 its watery acid, not acidic water :lol

but never the less, thats a shame. Im still torn between just finding fish that can handle the chemistry and setting up a second tank in the other room, as you did, to filter the water before using it.

Have you seen a decrease over time in effectiveness with the lab series nitrate remover?


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## AbbeysDad

I continue to have success with the FNR and the API Nitra-Zorb in both the prep tank and the display tank. I would not do what your doing with Prime. Just use one of the nitrate remover products and recharge as necessary in warm salt water.

Edit: I just realized I didn't specifically answer your question about FNR in the prep tank. I'm using two batches of FNR in the AC70 filter I'm using on the 10g tank. I have been doing two batches (20g) then recharging the FNR in warm salt water. The FNR gets my off the chart nitrates down to 5ppm.
So far it's going strong. I theorize that because the resin is not seeing dissolved organics that plug the pores (as would be the case in a fish tank), the salt water continues to clean the resin of the trapped nitrates, making it ready for reuse (stored in brine until then).
I can't say that it will last forever, but it is going strong and is certainly a cost effective way of filtering out nitrates for water changes. 
My garage is unheated so come winter I will need to relocate, most likely into the basement. At that time, I just may switch to using my old 29g that's down there.


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## AbbeysDad

*Bust*

As much as I thought this DIY denitrate filter had potential, I never did get anaerobic bacteria to handle nitrates. In addition, the Tom Aqua lifter pump would seem to have 'issues' that required me to disconnect the tube every other day and alternate between pumping air and water to get working properly.

It's disconnected now as I try a new experiment with deep sand and a new bacteria product. I'll report details and findings in a new thread.


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## skelator

mines been working for a while now. problem is if i want absolutly 0 nitrates comming out of it the flow has to be a very slow drip. im sure it helps but its nothing that makes any huge difference. 

ive found using a pouch of purigen works awesome. i still do 50% w.c. every week or so as i always did but since the purigen my nitrates went from 80 or so after a week to maybe 20 if that. 

i would think that constructing a small canister out of pvc like i did for my other filters and filling it with purigen would work amazingly well. tha being said purigen is not cheap but at least its rechargeable.


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## AbbeysDad

I have taken one of my AquaClear 70 filters and replaced the impeller with an AC20 impeller, significantly reducing the flow. I have it set for max re-filtration so there's only a trickle flow through. The chamber is filled with the Seachem Matrix/De*Nitrate mix to serve as a bio-filter. I use a fluval sponge pre-filter over the strainer on the input tube.
My other AC70 is mechanical only with sponge and fiber and I routinely replace/exchange material to force bio-filtration in the bio-filter.


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## AbbeysDad

skelator said:


> ive found using a pouch of purigen works awesome. i still do 50% w.c. every week or so as i always did but since the purigen my nitrates went from 80 or so after a week to maybe 20 if that. .


Purigen is a good product that adsorbs dissolved organics. However, although I've used Purigen in the past, I do have some reservations using it when culturing (or attempting to culture) anaerobic bacteria for nitrates. It seems to me that these bacteria require nutrients that they would obtain from dissolved organics in the water column. I worry that the Purigen might remove the nitrogenous waste that is the sustenance for the bacteria. Of course, one could argue balance and if there are fewer nitrates, fewer anaerobic bacteria to process same is of no consequence.
I may need to ponder this further!


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## skelator

sounds logical. did the purigen help you with nitrates? 

honestly if the nitrates are low im happy. if the easiest most effective way of achieving this is say a 4"x1' pcv pipe filled with purigen then so be it. im sure ill try this at some point as i get these ideas and then have to see of they work. i could have easily bought a TON of purigen and made one of these. instead of using 5 liters of de-nitrate and 1 1/3 liters of matrix. 

it is working kinda but basicly the flow is so slow i almost consider it a failure. possibly after some time there will be enough bacteria in there and i will be able to crank up the flow. 

on a side note i just ordered a t-5 setup off ebay hopefully its not a piece of crap. my plants dont ever grow with a new 6500k bulb. they just sustain for a while then degrade. i figure this should make a big difference.


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## AbbeysDad

skelator said:


> i could have easily bought a TON of purigen and made one of these. instead of using 5 liters of de-nitrate and 1 1/3 liters of matrix.
> it is working kinda but basicly the flow is so slow i almost consider it a failure. possibly after some time there will be enough bacteria in there and i will be able to crank up the flow.


What have you used for a bio-seed? I tried Stability (with the Matrix/De*Nitrate mix) but didn't seem get anywhere. Now that I've switched to the AC70 with the AC20 impeller, I'm testing Aquabella right now.
I've also migrated to deep [pool filter] sand.

Another consideration is nutrients. The Aquaripure uses 5ml of vodka or grenadine syrup once or twice a week to feed/stimulate the bacteria. I may try a few drops of grenadine every few days _in the bio-filter_ just to see what happens.

I think any effort to reduce tank nitrates seems to be a multi-pronged effort. Plants, reduced/controlled feeding, tank/filter cleaning/maintenance, water changes....? along with de-nitrification.

_Footnote: just to underscore the 'problem', I have very high nitrates in my well water. This is most likely due to the 95 acre farmers field across the road that gets ample amounts of organic and chemical fertilizers.
Since I need special water treatment/handling for water changes, minimizing tank nitrates and volume of water for changes is important to me._


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