# new 10 gallon



## chromiskid (Mar 1, 2008)

hey i just set up a new 10 gallon on 9/17/08 
it looks good but i think my shark is lonely
i have 2 goldfish, 2 guppies, and 1 shark.
every one has a buddy but him (i know, but im worried about these things ) 
should i get another shark to be his pal?


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

Umm, what kind of shark? Frankly I can't think of any fish referred to as a "shark" that's going to do well in a 10 gallon tank. Also aside from Bala/Silver Sharks they are loners for the most part. Getting another one would be a bad idea.


----------



## Freddiesbuns (Oct 22, 2008)

Also, goldfishes are very messy fishes and they might suffer from the ammonia pollution in a 10 gallons. :-? From what I've read goldfishes need 30 gallons of water per fish to stay in good health


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

Ah, shows what I'm paying attention to.

Yeah, the shark is iffy but the goldfish are a definite problem. A single fancy goldfish needs something like 15 gallons of water at a minimum. They are large messy fish and require an overfiltered tank. Also goldfish are cold water fish and do best in the low 70's to high 60's water temp while the shark and guppies are tropical fish that need a heater and do best in the high 70's.

Could definitely use some more details about your set up or pictures.


----------



## chromiskid (Mar 1, 2008)

I get my water tested a lot, and yes, my ammonia is high most of the time. I just add prime then it's back to normal. It's not to messy... I have a Penguin 150 and it really gets the job done. I will try to post some pics... I just need to figure out how to! Thanks for all your help so far!


----------



## chromiskid (Mar 1, 2008)

I'm gonna try to post so here it goes!


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

Prime won't return things to normal. If added in the right amounts it will detoxify it but its still there.

Questions:
1) What kind of shark?
2) What kind of goldfish?
3) What are the sexes of the guppies
4) How "high" are these ammonia readings?
5) How are you measuring the ammonia, test strips, liquid test kit, fish store testing?
6) How do you maintain your filter? Cleaning, cartridges, et?
7) How often do you change the water?
8) How often do you vacuum the tank?
9) What temperature is the tank?
10) Do you have a heater?

I'm honestly not even sure where to start really.

The goldfish will outgrow the tank, RAPIDLY. It's too small to comfortably hold even a single gold fish much less two and other fish as well.

As far as I'm aware there is no freshwater shark who will do well in a ten gallon tank. Most of them get into the ~5" range with bala's getting to over a foot.

You've got cold and warm water fish in the same tank. This means one of three things. One the tank is to cold for the shark and guppies but just right for the goldfish. Two it's too warm for the goldfish but just right for the others. Three, it's at the perfect temperature to make everyone miserable.

Messy doesn't refer just to bits floating in the water. Goldfish make a LOT of ammonia waste, far more than other fish in their size range. Two goldfish in such a small tank will place a tremendous strain on your biofilter even if the water is crystal clear.

Ammonia is toxic to fish, it burns their gills. A high reading isn't something to dose a little Prime and be fine with, its a serious health concern for the fish.

From the pics you posted it looks like you've got a male and a female guppy in the tank. The female is likely to be harassed by the male, a lot. Typically you want to keep two to three females per male so that the males amorous attentions are spread around and some of the girls get a break. I wouldn't add any fish to your tank though. Also since you have a female and a male be prepared for them to start making babies. Lots of babies.

These questions are being asked because right now with the information you've given it looks like you're in for either a lot of dead fish or a lot of miserable ones.


----------



## Kim (Apr 30, 2008)

Yes, yes, yes, that advice is very good. Also, please don't feel that we are harassing you, we just want to make your experience with fish a good one, and unfortunately due to a lot of bad information out there the setup that you have now is really destined to fail. I just wanted to make sure that you realize that we are only saying these things because we want what is best for your fish and for you too, not to be snooty or mean. Can you return the fish or find new homes for them? The guppies are fine and would do well with other smaller tropical fish. If I had to make a guess, I would say that you have an irridescent shark (the type that is commonly sold in stores). These guys along with your goldfish get huge and besides their enormous waste production will simply get too big to move in that tank very fast. I'm sorry for your rocky introduction to the hobby, but if you make some changes it will turn out for the better.


----------



## chromiskid (Mar 1, 2008)

hi. sorry no response for a while. i went to see family for thanksgiving! i get my ammonia tested at a fish store. i'm not sure what type of shark it is. i have both a male and female guppy. my ammonia level is just a little high, but could be a threat if i don't do anything. i change the filter cartridge every month. i do 50% water changes every other week, i don't vacuum the rocks ever:-? i have no heater and finally the tank is kept roughly around 73 degrees f. its a bala shark. i think i answered all your questions. i will try to post some pictures soon!;-) oh and my goldfish are fantails! hope this helps!


----------



## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

Bala sharks get absolutely huge - over a foot and sometimes up to 16" in length. They're also active swimmers and need to be in a school to thrive. In other words, they need to be kept in a huge tank, much bigger than your ten gallon. They really need to be kept in a six foot (or eight foot, really) tank for long term care. 

There's no need to replace your filter cartridge unless it is physically falling apart. If you replace it, you're throwing away all of the beneficial bacteria that have built up inside of it. Instead, when it gets gunked up you can just swish it around in some of the water you remove during water changes. 

Guppies can definitely be kept in a tank your size, but goldfish cannot. You would really need something on the order of a 40 gallon breeder for two adult fantails. Also, as was mentioned, you can't house tropical fish (the guppies and shark) with coldwater fish (the goldfish) and expect both types to be healthy.


----------



## SolaceTiger (Oct 4, 2008)

I would _strongly_ suggest you heed everyones advice here chromis. Good luck. If I were you, I'd either get a bigger seperate tank for the goldfish, find them new homes, or give them back to the store. I'd also find a new home for the shark. And research what fish are compatible with one another and their needs, before buying any more on a whim.


----------



## mags2313 (Nov 25, 2008)

Those goldfish are just beautiful, and I can see why people would want goldfish... I was going to do a goldfish tank at first until I read more about them and saw all the other beautiful freshwater fish that wouldn't be nearly as difficult to maintain....


----------



## chromiskid (Mar 1, 2008)

Thank you so much for all your advice! I'm only 13 and I doubt my parents will let me get another tank, and my wallet has tumble weeds in it! I don't want to have an unhealthy tank, but I can't return the fish to the pet store! What should I do now?!?!


----------



## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

Any quality fish store (or even the big chain stores) should take the fish off your hands for you if you are unable to care for them. You might not get any money for them, but losing out on a couple bucks worth of fish is definitely less expensive than having to buy huge aquariums in order to house them appropriately. 

Or, if you've got a friend or relative with large tanks (or even ponds for the goldfish) then you could give them away. You could also post an ad on craigslist offering to give them away to a good home.


----------



## chromiskid (Mar 1, 2008)

I really appreciate all your advice, but I love my fish and I would be very sad if I of rid of any them! I have even taught them to do tricks. It turns of that I can give them back. I just don't have the heart to! I don't want them to be miserable but I just don't know what to do!


----------



## Sydneysider (Nov 30, 2008)

Hi, it is sad when mistakes are made in fishkeeping. The best thing you could do is return the shark and keep the goldfish. They both have totally different water requirments and should never be mixed. The tank is too small for either fish, but the goldfish will tollerate it better than the shark if you really must keep them.


----------



## SolaceTiger (Oct 4, 2008)

Give the goldfish back, your pleasure is not worth their misery, and you'll get over it.


----------



## chromiskid (Mar 1, 2008)

I'm sorry I'm in denial, but how do I really know that they are actually miserable? Once again, thank you for all your help/advice!


----------



## Freddiesbuns (Oct 22, 2008)

Right now they might look okay because you haven't had them for a long time. Ammonia works slowly, but it is damaging them right now. Also, Goldfishes and sharks gets big, and if they are kept in a small tank, their growth will be stunted and it will dramatically diminish their lifespan. Keep in mind, goldfishes can live up to 15-20 years, but in a small space they probably won't make it to 2 years-old, and the ammonia will more likely end them before that!


----------



## Kim (Apr 30, 2008)

Well, your tropical fish would probably color up more when placed in a warmer tank. Other than that your goldfish and shark will soon get too large to move much at all in a 10 gallon tank. It is really not much of a life to be hardly able to move around your home. Not to mention the crazy levels of ammonia they will generate. I know that you are attached to them, but giving them up would be much nicer for all your fish if you are unable to provide for them in the long run. Try craigslist, at least with that you would know where they are going and choose someone who you know will take good care of them. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

Miserable is sort of a catch all term.

Temperature wise, someone in that tank is unhappy. If you've got a heater the odds are the goldfish feel like they're sitting in a house in the middle of summer with no AC. If you don't then the tropicals feel like they sitting in a house in winter with no heater. They're not in danger of death due to temperature but they are out of their comfort zone and not happy. They'll be stressed, the temperature won't give them a disease but the stress on them will make them much more susceptible to catching something.

Space wise the fish will get crowded. You've got three fish in there that are going to get big. In fact the shark (can you get a picture of him?) if he's a bala (very shiny silver) could get big enough that his nose could touch one end of the tank and his tail the other. The goldfish are going to get big enough that they'll take up a big chunk of the space all on their own. They won't be able to get away from the other fish or relax. You're not likely to see any normal behaviors when they are this packed together. Some fish get more agressive, some hide more, none of them will be happy. This crowding will stress the fish as well. Stress weakens their immune systems and... disease. 

Waste wise, again you've got some very big fish in the tank that will make lots of waste. Now if your biofilter can eventually grow to handle them (and that is a VERY BIG if) you're going to be on a razor's edge. With that little volume of water per fish even the slightest upset in the biofilter can lead to a huge ammonia spike and potentially dead fish.

As it was said, happier healthy fish will be brighter in color, more active, and much more robust. We're not trying to be downers but what you've got going is not likely to end well and in a tank that size you're not likely to lose one fish you're likely to lose them all if something happens. The goldfish need to go back as does the shark. Guppies can make for nice fish to watch and if you don't want to deal with the babies then either the male or female need to go back as well. It's rough, its not fun, but its for the best. There's a lot you can do with a ten gallon tank that will still be sustainable and you'll enjoy. In a few years when you've got a few more bucks you can get yourself a tank and have some goldfish in an environment that can support them.


----------



## chromiskid (Mar 1, 2008)

Here are some pics I took the other day! 





































http://s435.photobucket.com/albums/qq72/apmfla/




































:-D


----------



## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

It's a redtail shark, right? I think that's what I'm seeing in the photo...
They don't get as large as the balas but he will be too large for your tank. Sorry....


----------



## Highland lake13 (Nov 16, 2008)

Your shark isn't infact a bala it is a red tail. So i believe they are solitary fish and don't need a partner to thrive. I also if i am correct they can be kept in a 10g but most not be kept with that many fish. they are also semi-agressive fish and should not be kept in a community tank. SO you not have to return him but you would probibly have to return the goldfishes and maybe/maybe not the guppies. Good Luck!

~Cam


----------



## chromiskid (Mar 1, 2008)

ok... :-( 
This is off-topic but the pots in there are clay, not terracotta. Are they the same thing or will they harm my fish? I just put them in 2 days ago. What do you guys think of them?;-)


----------



## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

I think they are one in the same. I've always called them terracotta clay pots. I *think* terracotta refers to the color of the clay?? I'm sure the pots you have in the tank are fine but someone else will have to confirm this. I know I have seen these pots being used by fish for spawning in cichlid tanks.


----------



## MBilyeu (Nov 25, 2008)

I am not sure, but it looks like from the picture that the tank is 78+ degrees, which I believe is much too warm for the goldfish to be comfortable....


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

Actually the shark is a rainbow shark, a redtail is the one in my avatar. Only the tail is read. His shark has all red fins. It doesn't change much though, it's going to get to be much larger, in the 6" to 7" range. They're listed as semi-aggressive but they get a bad rep. Like red tails they can be kept but you need to follow some simple guidelines. 

First, one shark per tank unless it is a BIG tank, 75+ gallons. They are anti-social loners and having more than one in a tank is a good way to wind up with one shark.
Second, they are territorial bottom dwellers. Don't add other bottom dwellers that are territorial or can become so unless it is a big tank. Rams I'm looking at you. Have lots of cover and hiding places in the tank. The shark will likely stake his or her claim on a cave and defend the area around it as their territory
Third, don't add them first or when they are adults. The best way to add a shark is last and young. If they are added last they are less likely to claim the entire tank as their territory and less likely to be able to boss around the other fish.

That being said it's not a suitable fish for a ten gallon tank as they can get to be 6"+ and there's just not enough room for them to stake out a territory and they'll likely fight a lot. However is this actually a ten gallon tank? I'm not getting a great sense of perspective from the pictures. What are the dimensions of the tank?


----------



## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

Good ID on the shark. I didn't even know there was such thing as a Rainbow Shark. You learn something new everyday. Thanks Tyyrlym!!


----------



## chromiskid (Mar 1, 2008)

thank you for the identification! I thought he was a Bala...ok so I believe you guys about everything you've said but I don't understand why the guy at the fish store says it's ok. I'm kinda confused....


----------



## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

I'm not sure where you purchased your fish but if it was at a chain store (PetSmart, Petco, Walmart, etc.) most likely the person selling you the fish wasn't fully up to speed on the requirements needed to take care of the fish they sold you. They usually are more concerned with making the sale than educating you on your particular purchase. 

You can rest assured that the advice that's been given to you here in this forum in regards to your particular fish is positively correct. You're going to have to decide what to do because as your tank stands now it's simply not going to work out in the long term. I know it's not what you want to hear but you need to do what's in the best interest of your fish. 

I know how you feel as I've made my fair share of mistakes stocking a tank and while it's never easy giving up something I know I did the right thing in doing so.


----------



## Freddiesbuns (Oct 22, 2008)

If there is one thing to learn in fishkeeping, it's to never, ever trust a pet store clerk without researching yourself first. It's sad but most pet store people are rarely trained in fishkeeping and they are after all SALES people, they want to sell fishes. When I bought my 10 gallons the pet store guy told me 3 days would be enough to cycle a tank, when it takes up to a month! It's a common beginner's mistake so don't beat yourself up over this. In the future just make sure to check online before going to the pet store.


----------



## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

Rainbow sharks are very cool fish but unsuitable for a 10g. I used to have one, but he jumped to his doom during a water change. He was only out of the water for about two minutes but he didn't make it. R.I.P. Mr. Grumpy.


----------



## SolaceTiger (Oct 4, 2008)

Made any decisions yet? I'm curious to know.


----------



## chromiskid (Mar 1, 2008)

I haven't made any decisions yet... All of the staff at the fish store are marine biologists. They really like me and my brother, we get a 10% discount off of every purchase. They are very nice and I doubt they just want to sell fish.


----------



## dallops_of_polyps (Feb 19, 2008)

Ya the fish store me and my sis go to is very good carl the owner is I marine biologist gradute from umass and he is very knowlegable. I don't think about his knowledge in freshwater but I told
My sister (chromis kid) it was a Bala I guess I was way off.


----------



## Freddiesbuns (Oct 22, 2008)

These guys are obviously not trained with some freshwater breeds then, because it's pretty much common knowledge amongst fish keepers that there is just absolutely no way a goldfish (let alone 2!) can thrive in a 10 gallons tank! But the belief that these fishes can be kept in bowls and small tanks is very much ingrained in popular culture so I'm not surprised it could happen even with someone who has studied fishes. It doesn't help that a lot of 5-10 gallons tank kits are shown full of goldfishes on the boxes!


----------



## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

dallops_of_polyps said:


> Ya the fish store me and my sis go to is very good carl the owner is I marine biologist gradute from umass and he is very knowlegable. I don't think about his knowledge in freshwater but I told
> My sister (chromis kid) it was a Bala I guess I was way off.


A friend of mine is a marine biologist and he could not help me id a freshwater plant that I found growing in my ski lake. Now that I think about it he probably wouldn't be able to id most of the fish in my tank at home. But, he's spot on when it comes to anything that requires saltwater. Remind me again why I decided to set up a freshwater tank?? lol....


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

chromiskid said:


> I haven't made any decisions yet... All of the staff at the fish store are marine biologists. They really like me and my brother, we get a 10% discount off of every purchase. They are very nice and I doubt they just want to sell fish.


I have serious doubts that the entire staff of the fish store are real genuine marine biologists. Even if they are there's a problem

...marine...

As in ocean, saltwater, etc. Given what they recommended to you I would say they either have little to no experience with freshwater or are just trying to make a sale. Either way from now on you should take the advice they give you with a serious grain of salt.


----------



## dallops_of_polyps (Feb 19, 2008)

Tyyrlym said:


> I have serious doubts that the entire staff of the fish store are real genuine marine biologists. Even if they are there's a problem
> 
> ...marine...
> 
> As in ocean, saltwater, etc. Given what they recommended to you I would say they either have little to no experience with freshwater or are just trying to make a sale. Either way from now on you should take the advice they give you with a serious grain of salt.


how do you really feel?

who are you to say that our lfs isn't qualified and im the one who said it was a bala shark i went to my lfs and it was labeled rainbow shark. i think its funny how you can make such an outlandish prediction about him and his store having never gone there before. every adult that works there is some sort of biologist. everyone else has been nice to my little sister but you it seems are trying to be anal about it? he has taught me basically everything i know about aquariums and i am doing well. once again i think its funny how you can say anything about our lfs and how its not qualified.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

Marine Biologists
I stand by my assertion, if everyone who works in the fish store I'd be amazed. Amazed in the same way if someone told me every bagger at my local grocery store was an industrial engineer. If they are, wow, incredible find, but I'm not expecting to find a four year degreed researcher netting fish at a local fish shop. Now if we're talking every adult in the shop, maybe just the shop owner I can believe that.

Qualifications
If someone gives you incredibly bad advice you have to question their knowledge on the subject. If the guys at the LFS really did tell your sister that it is perfectly fine to keep two fancy goldfish, a rainbow shark, and a pair of guppies in the same 10 gallon tank they're either incompetent or just trying to sell her as many fish as possible. Those are your options. No one who is giving out good advice or concerned about her keeping fish successfully would tell her that set up will work.
1) Cold water fish and tropicals in the same tank.
2) Not one but two gold fish in a ten gallon tank that would barely be big enough for a single goldfish on its own.
3) A rainbow shark in too small a tank guaranteeing problems when the shark grows as it gets territorial and starts to fight with the other fish.
4) Male guppy with a single female guppy. The male will harass the female and stress her and if his attentions aren't lethal to her they'll start to make lots of little guppies.
Four very bad, very wrong things with the set up that the guy at the LFS said was fine. I'm not saying he's not a great guy that he's not a wonderful person but if that's the kind of advice he's giving then you need to take anything he says with a serious grain of salt.


----------



## dallops_of_polyps (Feb 19, 2008)

ok first off we sell our fish back to the fish store when they get to big. secondly he told her it would be ok if she keep ammonia down and had her tank at 70 degrees. also why do goldfish need to be in freezing water? what were doing no is cooling some of her tank water and then putting it back in. and yes there two adults that work there and the rest are high school students. both adults are marine biologists and what wrong with selling fish theres plenty of money in it.


----------



## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

dallops_of_polyps said:


> ok first off we sell our fish back to the fish store when they get to big.


I sincerely hope you do since three of those fish will get far too big for that small tank.



> secondly he told her it would be ok if she keep ammonia down and had her tank at 70 degrees. also why do goldfish need to be in freezing water? what were doing no is cooling some of her tank water and then putting it back in.


Why do polar bears live in the arctic, why do alligators live in tropical climates, because that's the environment they are adapted to. Goldfish come from cooler waters, putting them in tropical waters is like putting you in a room that is kept at 85 or 90 degrees constantly. It's not going to be comfortable or good for you. You're not going to die immediately but you're not going to act normally and in the long term it can lead to health problems. And 68ish degrees is far from freezing.

Cooling the water for the goldfish is going to mess with the others in just the same way. They are adapted for warm tropical waters. Cooling their water down will only cause those fish the same problems as warming up the goldfish.

Inconsistent heating, like once a day cooling off a gallon or two of water and adding it to the tank will lead to temperature swings that will make everyone in the tank miserable.



> and yes there two adults that work there and the rest are high school students. both adults are marine biologists and what wrong with selling fish theres plenty of money in it.


Which is a far cry from everyone being a marine biologist. There's nothing wrong with selling fish, but most degreed people won't work for minimum wage as a fish netter and most shops won't pay a degreed individual what they want to be paid just to net fish. They hire people like highschool students to do the grunt work.

I'm not trying to tell you to go somewhere else, I'm not trying to say this guy is a horrible person. All I'm saying is that your sister got some bad advice and in the future you need to take whatever this guy says with a grain of salt. 

I buy fish and equipment all the time from people I wouldn't trust to tell the difference between a guppy and a betta.


----------



## Freddiesbuns (Oct 22, 2008)

dallops_of_polyps said:


> ok first off we sell our fish back to the fish store when they get to big. secondly he told her it would be ok if she keep ammonia down and had her tank at 70 degrees. also why do goldfish need to be in freezing water? what were doing no is cooling some of her tank water and then putting it back in. and yes there two adults that work there and the rest are high school students. both adults are marine biologists and what wrong with selling fish theres plenty of money in it.



*sigh* we are obviously not giving you the answers you want to read, but still what everyone said so far is true. Just check any good website on goldfishes and tropical fish care and they will say exactly what we said so far. What you are doing right now with the tank temperature is damaging to the fishes. Ammonia levels are hard to maintain when there's an overpopulation of fishes, especially in such a small volume of water, and chemical products can only offer minimal help. 

It's a good thing you will get the fishes back to the store once they outgrow their tank, I just hope it's not an habit.


----------



## dallops_of_polyps (Feb 19, 2008)

What do you suggest and I think that we have made the mistakes here so stop ripping on or lfs I realize that she needs to get rid of the goldfish but you try convincing her.


----------



## dallops_of_polyps (Feb 19, 2008)

I just rad on liveaquaria.com that fantails need 65-75


----------



## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

You could buy her a 60G for Christmas, after all, she is your sister... 
Well, maybe I'll try another PM her way....


----------

