# setting up an amazon biotope/habitat aquarium



## pandamonium

hi everyone, 

i have been browsing through all kinds of fishkeeping sites lately and was interested in starting up an amazon habitat. since i am going back to school shortly, i can't start it now but i wanted to make sure everything was set. that way i can probably start to set up this tank beginning in the summer. for now this is what i had planned.

*tank:* 40-55 gallon
*filter:* maybe rena xp1 or a fluval. i have looked at eheim but they seem pricey 
*substrate:* sand

*fish:* i want the fish to be from the amazon and its tributaries. i have looked at a bunch and i have narrowed it down to a few although i would love suggestions. 
-hatchetfish
-neons with possibly serpae or lemon tetras
-a suckermouth catfish (bushynose, gold nugget (L177 i think), butterfly, or zebra. one of them)
-a pair of german blue rams
-honeycomb catfish (oil catfish)

*plants: *i have a 10g tank now that has all fake plants but a LFS i visited had displays with live plants and i would like to try it. from what i looked up i wanted to use a few amazon plants. 
-echinodorus tenellus. they said it was a midground plant. is this true?
-stargrass. i dont know much about it 
-cabomba. i have heard it is more difficult to keep, especially since i am not well-versed in plants. 

so i was hoping you guys could throw some suggestions my way about lighting i should use or other fish species i should look at. basically anything would be awesome 

oh and one last thing. when i look at a lot of display tanks with amazon species (neons and angels especially), they are rarely blackwater tanks. always very bright, even though they are well planted. why is this? i have read that the species need dimmed lighting either from floating plants or tannin-stained water. 

any help is greatly appreciated 

EDIT: with lighting, i guess that would depend on the plants i used or the fish preferecnes so i am not sure of that yet.


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## Christople

I would get lemons instead of neons because to me they are nicer, plants have a few requirements: lighting, nutrients, and Co2 injection. Lights are very important, plants use blue and red light mainly so a good starting point is 6700 kelvin rating.


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## Jwest

I have bit of an amazon biotope but i cheated a lil on the plants. I really like neons in large schools. I have 38 right now hoping to get up to 50. The red on them really pops when they are in large schools. Plus large pet store chains like petsmart and petco sell them for $1.00 ea sometimes. If you do have a petco near by I would go there if you haven't picked up a tank yet. They're having $1.00 per gallon sale on all tanks. For plant's I would recommend amazon swords. Place some root tabs next to them and they will grow pretty big under the right lighting. That's just my two cents.


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## bigfish93

I am setting up a 40 gallon tank right now and I was in the same situation as you. I wanted to get an Eheim filter but they were to pricey so I was gonna settle on a fluval. Then I came across this site, futurepets.com. I bought the Eheim Pro 3 UltraG65 (2071) for $150. Sure, it is still a little more expensive than a fluval or rena, but the few extra dollars for a far superior filter is definitely worth it in my opinion. The filter arrived at my door step in less than a week, and that was with the standard ground shipping. Definitely worth checking out if you haven't bought your filter yet.


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## angella

Have you seen the black neon tetras? I have a school of 15 neon tetras that I ADORE  The black ones look cool too though, just throwing that out there for ya.


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## Byron

Welcome to Tropical Fish Keeping forum. I'm delighted at another Amazonian fishkeeper joining us.:-D I have 7 tanks at present, and most are geographically Amazonian. The photo attached is of my present 70g flooded Amazon forest habitat and the 115g Amazonian Riverscape; both use the natural method which means minimal light and no CO2. I'll offer a few suggestions here to get you started.

First, filter. A good canister rated to the tank size is adequate. I have Eheims on two tanks and Rena XP3 on the 115g. Eheims are more expensive, but the benefit here is that they will likely last much longer without problems. My two Eheims have been running non-stop for 12-15 years with never an issue. Rena does not yet have that sort of track record, but I am nonetheless happy with its performance after 2 years. In product reviews Fluval come third to the Eheim (first) and Rena (second). For media, I use the Fluval ceramic disks and biomax as it is cheaper but otherwise identical.

Light: sufficient for the plants intended, but no more. And always include floating plants. As you correctly said, Amazonian fish are mainly from very dimly-lit waters. And 90% of these waters are shaded by forest canopy, overhanging ground vegetation, or floating aquatic vegetation. Light does make a difference on the well-being of the fish. You can read some background on light and planted tanks in the 4-part series "A Basic Approach to the Natural Planted Aquarium" stickied at the head of the Aquarium Plants section. Over a standard 55g, a single or dual 48-inch T8 tube fixture would work.

Fish: From your list, I would forget Serpae Tetra. These are often nippy, and some will create havoc at worst, and restrict your selection of fish because of their nippiness. We have fish (and plant) profiles, under the second tab from the left in the blue bar across the top. Many species are included. If the scientific or common name is used in a post exactly as in the profile, it will shade, like Serpae Tetra, and you can click on the shaded name to see that profile.

Plants: Echinodorus species, several are in the profiles. The pygmy chain sword is an excellent substrate cover, you can see it in the photo of my 70g. The similar plant in the 115g is a related species, probably Hellanthium bolivianus. When I acquired it back in the 1990's it was Echinodorus quadricostatus, but the smaller chain species of swords have undergone a major botanical revision and are now Hellanthium with only two or possibly three species.


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## pandamonium

bigfish93 said:


> I am setting up a 40 gallon tank right now and I was in the same situation as you. I wanted to get an Eheim filter but they were to pricey so I was gonna settle on a fluval. Then I came across this site, futurepets.com. I bought the Eheim Pro 3 UltraG65 (2071) for $150. Sure, it is still a little more expensive than a fluval or rena, but the few extra dollars for a far superior filter is definitely worth it in my opinion. The filter arrived at my door step in less than a week, and that was with the standard ground shipping. Definitely worth checking out if you haven't bought your filter yet.


i will definitely look at that site. being a college student means i can barely afford food haha  thanks for the suggestion!



angella said:


> Have you seen the black neon tetras? I have a school of 15 neon tetras that I ADORE  The black ones look cool too though, just throwing that out there for ya.


i have and they are so cool. my roommate bought them at school and they seem to be a bit braver and hardier than the neons i bought. apparently they are a different species altogether? at least that is what the LFS owner told me. 



Byron said:


> Welcome to Tropical Fish Keeping forum. I'm delighted at another Amazonian fishkeeper joining us.:-D I have 7 tanks at present, and most are geographically Amazonian. The photo attached is of my present 70g flooded Amazon forest habitat and the 115g Amazonian Riverscape; both use the natural method which means minimal light and no CO2. I'll offer a few suggestions here to get you started.
> 
> First, filter. A good canister rated to the tank size is adequate. I have Eheims on two tanks and Rena XP3 on the 115g. Eheims are more expensive, but the benefit here is that they will likely last much longer without problems. My two Eheims have been running non-stop for 12-15 years with never an issue. Rena does not yet have that sort of track record, but I am nonetheless happy with its performance after 2 years. In product reviews Fluval come third to the Eheim (first) and Rena (second). For media, I use the Fluval ceramic disks and biomax as it is cheaper but otherwise identical.
> 
> Light: sufficient for the plants intended, but no more. And always include floating plants. As you correctly said, Amazonian fish are mainly from very dimly-lit waters. And 90% of these waters are shaded by forest canopy, overhanging ground vegetation, or floating aquatic vegetation. Light does make a difference on the well-being of the fish. You can read some background on light and planted tanks in the 4-part series "A Basic Approach to the Natural Planted Aquarium" stickied at the head of the Aquarium Plants section. Over a standard 55g, a single or dual 48-inch T8 tube fixture would work.
> 
> Fish: From your list, I would forget Serpae Tetra. These are often nippy, and some will create havoc at worst, and restrict your selection of fish because of their nippiness. We have fish (and plant) profiles, under the second tab from the left in the blue bar across the top. Many species are included. If the scientific or common name is used in a post exactly as in the profile, it will shade, like Serpae Tetra, and you can click on the shaded name to see that profile.
> 
> Plants: Echinodorus species, several are in the profiles. The pygmy chain sword is an excellent substrate cover, you can see it in the photo of my 70g. The similar plant in the 115g is a related species, probably Hellanthium bolivianus. When I acquired it back in the 1990's it was Echinodorus quadricostatus, but the smaller chain species of swords have undergone a major botanical revision and are now Hellanthium with only two or possibly three species.


thanks byron for the comprehensive answer. before posting my question i looked at your tanks and they look amazing! i will definitely consult the sticky and do some more research on lighting. i have some questions though. 
-so far i found that there is a rule that says there should be 2 watts per gallon of water for planted aquariums. is this true? it seems really bright for fish who like dim waters. 
-will floating plants interfere with light requirements for the bottom-dwelling plants? 
-what floating plants do you suggest for an amazonian aquarium? i looked at amazon frogbit and 1 other i think it was hornwort. i have had success with hornwort in the past but i am unsure if i want it in this tank.
- i just came to the thought of aquarium substrate for plants. there is a store near me that models its tanks after the work of takashi amano, the aquascapist. however, its really expensive and i was wondering if there are cheaper ways of providing substrate. fluorite i think is common in most stores. is that good enough? 

thanks again everyone for your help. this definitely helped me narrow my options


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## Byron

> -so far i found that there is a rule that says there should be 2 watts per gallon of water for planted aquariums. is this true? it seems really bright for fish who like dim waters.


Forget this "rule," it is not reliable. This did sort of work back when we all had regular T12 fluorescent tubes over our tanks, and for basic tanks around 20 to 100 gallons. But with the various lighting options within fluorescent tubes today this is completely unreliable. And, it was excessive even previously. Watts is only the measurement of energy a tube/bulb uses to produce the light. The newer T8 tubes (thinner than the T12) are more efficient at emitting equal or more light than the T12, and use less energy to do it. Then there are T5 tubes which are more efficient, though they produce too much light in many cases for freshwater. As an example, my tanks with fluorescent fixtures (all T8) have less than 1 watt per gallon, and no one is going to tell me the plants are not growing well.



> -will floating plants interfere with light requirements for the bottom-dwelling plants?


To some degree. However, one factors this in to the equation. As you've seen, I have floating plants in all my tanks; I consider it mandatory for the best health of the fish.



> -what floating plants do you suggest for an amazonian aquarium? i looked at Amazon Frogbit and 1 other i think it was Hornwort. i have had success with Hornwort in the past but i am unsure if i want it in this tank.


Amazon Frogbit [I have poor results with this, perhaps due to my tanks being covered; this plant seems to like air circulation more than others], Salvinia, Water Sprite, Duckweed of course though I wouldn't use this solely as it is less suitable on its own. Brazilian Pennywort a stem plant does extremely well floating. In all my tanks I use Water Sprite and Pennywort mainly, with some Duckweed, and Frogbit though it barely survives.



> - i just came to the thought of aquarium substrate for plants. there is a store near me that models its tanks after the work of takashi amano, the aquascapist. however, its really expensive and i was wondering if there are cheaper ways of providing substrate. fluorite i think is common in most stores. is that good enough?


I have used every substrate type except soil [won't get into that]. Sand, fine gravel and enriched. Flourite is the substrate in my 70g. The others have sand or gravel. The same species of plants grow equally well in all of these. Which only goes to show how un-important the substrate may actually be.;-) I used Flourite in the 70g because it was to be heavily planted as a flooded Amazonian forest, and I thought the benefit of the enriched substrate seemed suited. I'm somewhat disappointed; after nearly 10 months I am not seeing much of a difference. I won't waste the money on this again. I can't say other manufacturers are better/same as I haven't tried them. But given that plant roots assimilate nutrients from the water, always, it seems pointless to spend hundreds of dollars on one of these when plain sand with liquid fertilizer or substrate tabs for large plants will do the same. Another issue is roughness; Flourite and Eco-Complete are both rough, and substrate fish do not fare as well over these. I took my corys out of the 70g about 5 months after the Flourite because I sensed trouble; and given their behaviour now over sand, I think it was right.

Mr. Amano's style of aquascaping creates beautiful works of art. They are not natural aquaria, by which I mean replicating natural aquatic habitats. I have never gone hi-tech because I do not want to subject the fish to that much light (which is essential), nor do I want the expense and increased nutrient issues of CO2.

I have previously always used fine gravel, and I still think it is the best plant substrate. Over the past couple of years i have set up tanks with playsand, and I do prefer this look for most applications. Fine gravel is very effective in riverscapes such as SE Asian for loaches (Botia sp.) and Central American livebearers and cichlids.


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## pandamonium

ok i will look up T8 tubes for sure. i am looking at buying a tank through petco right now for their $1 per gallon sale. i think its a 36 inch length so ill have to lok for something along those measurements. luckily the lfs has a large selection of them. ill look up the lighting in your tabs and see. 

ill definitley search up those plants. i have a lot more time now than before. the pennywort, is it the same species that is sold in grocery stores? i know many produce markets have a pennywort that they sell. or is this a different species?

haha wow i did not think that substrate would impact the growth so minimally! so then it is safe if i use sand or gravel? i want the bed of the tank to be sand but should i have gravel underneath that?


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> ok i will look up T8 tubes for sure. i am looking at buying a tank through petco right now for their $1 per gallon sale. i think its a 36 inch length so ill have to lok for something along those measurements. luckily the lfs has a large selection of them. ill look up the lighting in your tabs and see.
> 
> ill definitley search up those plants. i have a lot more time now than before. the pennywort, is it the same species that is sold in grocery stores? i know many produce markets have a pennywort that they sell. or is this a different species?
> 
> haha wow i did not think that substrate would impact the growth so minimally! so then it is safe if i use sand or gravel? i want the bed of the tank to be sand but should i have gravel underneath that?


Never mix substrates, by which I mean different grain sizes. Sand will always sink to the bottom, being smaller grains, and the larger gravel will be on top. All sand to about 2 inches overall is sufficient.

No idea what the "pennywort" may be in the supermarket, but I doubt it is our beautiful aquarium plant.


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## pandamonium

so if i use the sand substrate, will i need to supplement with tabs still? i read the guide to natural aquariums and talked to some people and they said once in a long while, it could help to stick like fertilizer sticks into the sand to help with the root growth. should i do this? or will the plants be able to grow naturally without any human intervention?


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> so if i use the sand substrate, will i need to supplement with tabs still? i read the guide to natural aquariums and talked to some people and they said once in a long while, it could help to stick like fertilizer sticks into the sand to help with the root growth. should i do this? or will the plants be able to grow naturally without any human intervention?


On nutrient fertilization in general, it depends upon the plant species and the aquarium (fish load, feeding, tap water). Nutrients for plants occur from two main sources: tap water (the hardness is key) and organics (from fish foods and decaying plant matter). The plant species is important because some plants need more nutrients; generzally, the faster growing a plant is, the more nutrients. My tap water is near-zero in hardness so right away I need to supplement calcium and magnesium, and trace minerals too. I use Flourish Comprehensive Supplement because it contains everything in proportion. This is intended as a supplement in a natural or low-tech system. You can maintain a healthy planted aquarium with this alone.

Some plants are heavy feeders, and this usually applies to substrate-rooted plants such as swords, crypts, Vallisneria, aponogeton, Sagittaria, etc. Since these plants are rooted in the substrate, and their root systems are buried in the substrate, using substrate fertilizers like Flourish Tabs does improve growth because it targets the roots directly. But they will still grow without. I have experimented with this over several years, with the result that I now use Flourish Tabs next to the larger swords, along with Flourish Comprehensive weekly. I do this in both my gravel and sand tanks.


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> On nutrient fertilization in general, it depends upon the plant species and the aquarium (fish load, feeding, tap water). Nutrients for plants occur from two main sources: tap water (the hardness is key) and organics (from fish foods and decaying plant matter). The plant species is important because some plants need more nutrients; generzally, the faster growing a plant is, the more nutrients. My tap water is near-zero in hardness so right away I need to supplement calcium and magnesium, and trace minerals too. I use Flourish Comprehensive Supplement because it contains everything in proportion. This is intended as a supplement in a natural or low-tech system. You can maintain a healthy planted aquarium with this alone.
> 
> Some plants are heavy feeders, and this usually applies to substrate-rooted plants such as swords, crypts, Vallisneria, aponogeton, Sagittaria, etc. Since these plants are rooted in the substrate, and their root systems are buried in the substrate, using substrate fertilizers like Flourish Tabs does improve growth because it targets the roots directly. But they will still grow without. I have experimented with this over several years, with the result that I now use Flourish Tabs next to the larger swords, along with Flourish Comprehensive weekly. I do this in both my gravel and sand tanks.


i know that my tap water is medium to high hardness. i checked it a while back when i set up my 12gallon. i know this is not ideal for amazon fish since they like soft water. will the plants just absorb this out of the water column? or should i try to make the water softer?
and i will definitely take a look at the flourish supplement. i plan to have some swords in the background and possibly midground, depending on the size so once i have that finalized i will decide on which swords to use the tabs. 
on a good note though i have a clearer idea of what to do for my tank.
*tank size*: 40 gallon breeder (36x18x16 i think)
*filter*: an eheim fit for this size, i think 2271 or something like that. it was 150 online
the fish list stays the same i think. the tnak doesnt have a lid so i was gonna get an aqueon glass lid and cut out the back holes for all the media. 
however i still have questions for lighting. so byron you suggested t8 lighting and i didnt need to do 2 watts per gallon. in your tanks i noticed it was about 1 watt or less per gallon and it looks amazing. so should i have a grand total of about 35-40watts over 2 bulbs? or 40 watts in 1 bulb? and the plant species i aske dyou about earlier.


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> i know that my tap water is medium to high hardness. i checked it a while back when i set up my 12gallon. i know this is not ideal for amazon fish since they like soft water. will the plants just absorb this out of the water column? or should i try to make the water softer?
> and i will definitely take a look at the flourish supplement. i plan to have some swords in the background and possibly midground, depending on the size so once i have that finalized i will decide on which swords to use the tabs.
> on a good note though i have a clearer idea of what to do for my tank.
> *tank size*: 40 gallon breeder (36x18x16 i think)
> *filter*: an eheim fit for this size, i think 2271 or something like that. it was 150 online
> the fish list stays the same i think. the tnak doesnt have a lid so i was gonna get an aqueon glass lid and cut out the back holes for all the media.
> however i still have questions for lighting. so byron you suggested t8 lighting and i didnt need to do 2 watts per gallon. in your tanks i noticed it was about 1 watt or less per gallon and it looks amazing. so should i have a grand total of about 35-40watts over 2 bulbs? or 40 watts in 1 bulb? and the plant species i aske dyou about earlier.


The dimensions of your 40g are close to my 33g; same length and depth (height), your 40g is wider (front to back). I have a single T8 tube, 25w, 30 inch length, over the 33g. For your 40g I would up this, as I know I am limited in this tank with the single T8 tube. This is where a single tube T5 HO would work well, or a dual-tube T8. Single-tube T5 is not easy to come by, but Foster&Smith do have one for 36-inch tank:
Aquarium Lighting for Planted & Reef Aquariums: Hagen GLO T5 HO Linear Fluorescent Fixtures
And this is the tube:
Aquarium Lighting: T-5 Fluorescent Bulbs: Hagen Life-GLO T-5 HO 6700°K Bulb

A dual T8 would be something like this:
Fluorescent Aquarium Lighting: Perfecto Fluorescent Double-Bulb Strip Lights

Interestingly, the price on both fixtures is the same. The T5 is a "clearance" so perhaps they are discontinuing it. You'll have no trouble getting tubes, as T5 HO will be here a long time. T5 was introduced for marine tanks where more intense light with fewer tubes was the advantage, which is why one sees T5 in multi-tube fixtures more.

The tubes for the T8 would be standard T8 tubes, and there are plenty around:
Aquarium Lighting: Compatible Fluorescent Bulbs for Standard Fluorescent Fixtures
The 36 inch tubes are for the above T8 fixture, and I would suggest either the Life-Glo 2 or UltraSun as basic, plus (with two tubes) you can have a second with a different spectrum which can create good light together.

I won't suggest one over the other now, so think about this.

With either fixture, it is just the light so a glass cover unit would be needed; you can buy these, and they have a strip at the back that is not glass but plaqstic so you can cut out for heaters and filters.


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## pandamonium

since the t5 is hard to come by i would probably go with the t8. i want to make it easy to replace should something bad happen haha. while looking at the tanks, i noticed all these numbers like 6700k and such. i read through your sticky in the plants section (very clear might i add). so i should try to invest in a bulb with a 6000-7000k rating. but you also mentioned using another tube, both in the sticky and in your last reply. i dont quite understand the purpose of this other tube. will it add increase the wattage of the tank in a negative way? or will it just provide a section of the spectrum that a normal bulb does not?
with the glass covers i have looked around at those and i think i found ones that will fit by perfecto and aqueon. 
Aqueon Versa-Top? Hinged Glass Tops | Products
something like those. i heard perfecto is very good but this got me wondering. they sell the replacement hinges and back panels separately. if i go to home depot and have the proper size glass cut and assemble it myself, will that work just as well as buying a glass lid? or should i just not be stingy haha. my craftsmanship may not be up to par. i have also heard of plexiglass being used for the lids. will either glass or plexiglass warp under the heat of the light fixtures?


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> since the t5 is hard to come by i would probably go with the t8. i want to make it easy to replace should something bad happen haha. while looking at the tanks, i noticed all these numbers like 6700k and such. i read through your sticky in the plants section (very clear might i add). so i should try to invest in a bulb with a 6000-7000k rating. but you also mentioned using another tube, both in the sticky and in your last reply. i dont quite understand the purpose of this other tube. will it add increase the wattage of the tank in a negative way? or will it just provide a section of the spectrum that a normal bulb does not?
> with the glass covers i have looked around at those and i think i found ones that will fit by perfecto and aqueon.
> Aqueon Versa-Top? Hinged Glass Tops | Products
> something like those. i heard perfecto is very good but this got me wondering. they sell the replacement hinges and back panels separately. if i go to home depot and have the proper size glass cut and assemble it myself, will that work just as well as buying a glass lid? or should i just not be stingy haha. my craftsmanship may not be up to par. i have also heard of plexiglass being used for the lids. will either glass or plexiglass warp under the heat of the light fixtures?


The glass cover sets are not very expensive, and the benefit is they are easier to handle. I have one of the Aqueon ones linked, and my larger tanks have the sets that are glass panes in a plastic dual-rail strip that sits on the tank frame. Both have pro's and con's compared to each other. But on the whole I prefer the rail system. Sliding the front pane back a couple inches to feed is for me easier than lifting up the front half and opening half the tank. Just did a quick Google and can't see these; may not be around any longer.?? I would stay with glass for the cover. Easier to clean I would expect.

Light. With dual tubes you can mix spectrum. This is largely a matter of personal taste. I do not like warm white light over my tanks, but prefer cool white. I always have one full spectrum 6700K (within 5000K to 7000K will work), and when I can get them, a cooler (more blue, less red) for the second. I can no longer get these locally, so I'm using Phillips 6500K as my second tube. The plants do just as well under either, it is solely the hue in the tank, and I like a crisper cleaner white rather than the yellowish warmer white that something like a 4000K tube would emit. Blue also penetrates water better, so there may be a slight benefit with my larger tanks by having a blue-ish tube with the full spectrum.


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## magpie

I don't believe that the plants affect the water hardness, or if so, likely not enough... but I really don't know. I have very soft water out of the tap so that part is easy for me... curious what folks will have to say about your hardness. What are your parameters? 

I know some folks with harder water who want soft-water fish talk about using RO water, or adding peat or driftwood but I honestly don't know enough about it all to be of any help.


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## Byron

Got sidetracked on the light and missed the water hardness question. Sorry pandamonium.

Magpie is correct, plants have very little effect on hardness. But before we mess around with adjusting the water, what is the GH (geeneral hardness) and KH (Alkalinity) of the tap water, and the pH (tap, not tank, and let a glass of water sit overnight to test pH)? You can ascertain the hardness from the water supply folks, they mayhave a website; might also indicate average pH, that will be fine.

Byron.


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> Got sidetracked on the light and missed the water hardness question. Sorry pandamonium.
> 
> Magpie is correct, plants have very little effect on hardness. But before we mess around with adjusting the water, what is the GH (geeneral hardness) and KH (Alkalinity) of the tap water, and the pH (tap, not tank, and let a glass of water sit overnight to test pH)? You can ascertain the hardness from the water supply folks, they mayhave a website; might also indicate average pH, that will be fine.
> 
> Byron.


thanks magpie and byron for the insight. i just looked up the water quality reports for my city. unfortunately they only have one up from 2010 and previous so its not as recent as i want to show you guys but hopefully it helps. 

the GH of the water has a range of 8-104ppm with an average of 53ppm
the KH of the water has a range of 8-96ppm with an average of 49ppm
and i can't test the pH since i am at school in new york and i live in california. but according to the report, the pH ranges from 8.2-8.7 with an average of 8.5. 

in my past tanks i haven't had any problems with fish and this water, except for my first (and failed) attempt at keeping neons. since then i have not tried any fish that need acidic water except maybe for otos which were able to cope fairly well. i remember when i measured the pH of the water a year ago, it was about 7.5. up at school i used driftwood to lower the pH and stain the water.
other than that, i confess, i know little to nothing about water hardness so im hoping you can enlighten me 
i defintely do not want to kill any more neons because it was quite sad. 

and on another note, the tank i wanted to get was a 40 breeder but my father said it was too deep (front to back). the other option is a 38 gallon which has dimensions 36.5x13.5x19.8. i believe these are outside dimensions. would this affect me much at all? in terms of fish/substrate/rooms for plants to grow/etc? from the dimensions its slightly higher than a 40breeder tank but defintely thinner. any thoughts on this or am i overthinking it?
i wanted to set up a flooded forest tnak though a little different than your tanks byron. i will post an image when i can find it again. but i know i defintley have question about it.


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## DavidC

*Tank Lighting*

Hey Pandamonium, I am in the process of setting up a Amazon tank myself and Byron has been helping me a s well. I just purchased my lighting the other day. A lighting store in my area had a new type of T5 set up which does not have a ballast. With most florescents you will need to occasionally change the ballasts as they burn out. This new type has none and can be linked one to the other with simple plug connection. I am setting up a large tank, that will hopefully look half as good as Byron's 115g, so I am going with two of the T5's. One is around 6500k and the other is more of a cool white, around 4500k. I do not think they are HO's, but they put out more light than the T8's. Byron has his T8's sitting on top of his glass covers. My tank is going into a custom wall unit, so I can adjust the height of the T5's above the water in case they are too bright.
I went with this idea so I would not have to mess with changing out ballasts. Im not sure if this will actually save me money in the long run but should save time and effort which was what I was after. I will have them on a timer and probably start out with 8 hours a day based on my previous conversations with Byron. If you need more detail on these lights let me know and I will send it to you. I can give you the exact K ratings, etc, and you can see what Byron thinks. Hope this helps.
DavidC


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## MinaMinaMina

I just wanted to add-
Since you have a certain combination of aspects- tight budget, a heavily planted tank, a moderately sized tank... may I suggest considering a simple sponge filter instead of the canister?


----------



## Byron

> thanks magpie and byron for the insight. i just looked up the water quality reports for my city. unfortunately they only have one up from 2010 and previous so its not as recent as i want to show you guys but hopefully it helps.
> 
> the GH of the water has a range of 8-104ppm with an average of 53ppm
> the KH of the water has a range of 8-96ppm with an average of 49ppm
> and i can't test the pH since i am at school in new york and i live in california. but according to the report, the pH ranges from 8.2-8.7 with an average of 8.5.
> 
> in my past tanks i haven't had any problems with fish and this water, except for my first (and failed) attempt at keeping neons. since then i have not tried any fish that need acidic water except maybe for otos which were able to cope fairly well. i remember when i measured the pH of the water a year ago, it was about 7.5. up at school i used driftwood to lower the pH and stain the water.
> other than that, i confess, i know little to nothing about water hardness so im hoping you can enlighten me
> i defintely do not want to kill any more neons because it was quite sad.


Those are not bad GH and KH numbers, assuming it remains around the average. Something is raising the pH, but the low KH will allow that to lower. When you come to setting this tank up, I would recheck the GH and KH and if still low use a good pH adjuster to lower the pH initially; it will stay there with a low KH. I have done this in new tanks (without fish). If the GH and KH increases by then, you could also mix pure water (rainwater, RO or distilled) with tap to reduce these.

For more info on hardness and pH, see this article:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-articles/water-hardness-ph-freshwater-aquarium-73276/



> and on another note, the tank i wanted to get was a 40 breeder but my father said it was too deep (front to back). the other option is a 38 gallon which has dimensions 36.5x13.5x19.8. i believe these are outside dimensions. would this affect me much at all? in terms of fish/substrate/rooms for plants to grow/etc? from the dimensions its slightly higher than a 40breeder tank but defintely thinner. any thoughts on this or am i overthinking it?
> i wanted to set up a flooded forest tnak though a little different than your tanks byron. i will post an image when i can find it again. but i know i defintley have question about it.


Is there any particular reason why the 40 is considered too deep? Physical space in the intended room is a valid concern, but from the perspective solely of the tank itself, I would get a 40 over a smaller. One of the problems with my 3-foot 33g is the narrow depth front to back, 1 foot; another 6 inches would make a big difference aquascaping and give more surface area--on the substrate and at the water surface, and the surface area is far more important than the volume.


----------



## pandamonium

DavidC said:


> Hey Pandamonium, I am in the process of setting up a Amazon tank myself and Byron has been helping me a s well. I just purchased my lighting the other day. A lighting store in my area had a new type of T5 set up which does not have a ballast. With most florescents you will need to occasionally change the ballasts as they burn out. This new type has none and can be linked one to the other with simple plug connection. I am setting up a large tank, that will hopefully look half as good as Byron's 115g, so I am going with two of the T5's. One is around 6500k and the other is more of a cool white, around 4500k. I do not think they are HO's, but they put out more light than the T8's. Byron has his T8's sitting on top of his glass covers. My tank is going into a custom wall unit, so I can adjust the height of the T5's above the water in case they are too bright.
> I went with this idea so I would not have to mess with changing out ballasts. Im not sure if this will actually save me money in the long run but should save time and effort which was what I was after. I will have them on a timer and probably start out with 8 hours a day based on my previous conversations with Byron. If you need more detail on these lights let me know and I will send it to you. I can give you the exact K ratings, etc, and you can see what Byron thinks. Hope this helps.
> DavidC


hi davidc, thanks for the info. i dont know anything about lighting except what byron told me, which was about K ratings, and how the light penetrates water. so its very basic. other than that i dont know much about building lighting fixtures or lighting fixtures themselves (from a mechanical standpoint). anything you have would help a lot! 



MinaMinaMina said:


> I just wanted to add-
> Since you have a certain combination of aspects- tight budget, a heavily planted tank, a moderately sized tank... may I suggest considering a simple sponge filter instead of the canister?


i thought about a sponge filter but i dont know if it will circulate water enough. since i am getting a bunch of stuff either on sale or for cheap, money is not too huge of an issue. i have a feeling most of the money will be shelled out for the filter and maybe lighting. but as of now i am trying to do a lot of DIY, esepcially for lighting and lid. hopefully that helps 



Byron said:


> Those are not bad GH and KH numbers, assuming it remains around the average. Something is raising the pH, but the low KH will allow that to lower. When you come to setting this tank up, I would recheck the GH and KH and if still low use a good pH adjuster to lower the pH initially; it will stay there with a low KH. I have done this in new tanks (without fish). If the GH and KH increases by then, you could also mix pure water (rainwater, RO or distilled) with tap to reduce these.
> 
> For more info on hardness and pH, see this article:
> http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-articles/water-hardness-ph-freshwater-aquarium-73276/
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any particular reason why the 40 is considered too deep? Physical space in the intended room is a valid concern, but from the perspective solely of the tank itself, I would get a 40 over a smaller. One of the problems with my 3-foot 33g is the narrow depth front to back, 1 foot; another 6 inches would make a big difference aquascaping and give more surface area--on the substrate and at the water surface, and the surface area is far more important than the volume.


the only reason is because the places i wanted to put the tank were in my room or in a corner by the wall. the problem there is the 40BR is i think 16 or 18 deep. and 18 high or something. i am going to make a stand which would then be at least 18-22inches deep. this would stick out into a doorway. if i keep it in my room, then i would have to rearrange my room. so the depth is merely a size concern. 

when my dad spoke to the salespeople back home, they told him that to cover a 40BR in 1 inch of sand, i woul dneed about 50 pounds of sand. is this about right? and for 2 inches of sand, would that then mean 100 pounds of sand?


----------



## Byron

> when my dad spoke to the salespeople back home, they told him that to cover a 40BR in 1 inch of sand, i woul dneed about 50 pounds of sand. is this about right? and for 2 inches of sand, would that then mean 100 pounds of sand?


One bag will be more than enough. Playsand comes in 25kg/55lb bags. You should have about 1.5 to 2 inches depth throughout, front can be an inch and graded up slightly deeper in the back (use rocks) for the larger rooted plants, or leave it fairly even throughout. It will level itself in time due to water movement through the substrate and gravity.


----------



## magpie

I'd definitely go with the canister filter! I personally think it's worth the expense, particularly if you're saving money on other areas. I got my first Eheim and am in love. It is wonderful and just exceptionally quiet to boot.


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## pandamonium

thanks magpie and byron! now that i have heard a lot more about eheim filters i am more inclined to buy one. i didnt know that it was a brand before but i did my own research and it is looking good. 

also i found the tank that i wanted to model mine after. it was on another forum. the tank is a 29 gallon tank, amazon flooded forest setup as well. 
does anyone know what kind of branches they are using? i like the color and design but i am not sure there is driftwood sold in that shape. any place to buy driftwood online? i will check around my area as well. 
and for plants i would just assume the general amazon swords and e. tenellus as ground cover. im not sure about floating plants but i plan to use some as well. 
and last thing, would this type of setup be viable in a 38gallon or 40BR tank? i know the highs and depths are a bit different but that should not affect it much right?

here are the images of the tank i would like to emulate. 

















THESE ARE NOT MY TANKS. THEY ARE JUST TANKS I WOULD LIKE TO COPY SO CREDIT GOES TO THE ORIGINAL OWNER WHOEVER HE/SHE MIGHT BE


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## Byron

That is nice. Just use authentic SA plants and you're set. Echinodorus (swords) to replace the crypts and Java Fern. Water Sprite or Frogbit for floating.

Those branches may have been collected. Oak and beech are safe woods. Collect them dry (i.e., off the ground, not from the tree), and strip off all bark. May have a tendancy to float but there are ways to deal with that.

In another thread some driftwood sites were linked:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-aquarium/question-about-driftwood-91337/


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## pandamonium

ok i will look around for those pieces of wood. i imagine it would be hard to find ones that would look proportional with the size of the tank. 
is there any type of preparation i have to do if i use any wood that comes from outdoors? and also do you think mangrove would work? or like mangrove branches?


----------



## Byron

pandamonium said:


> ok i will look around for those pieces of wood. i imagine it would be hard to find ones that would look proportional with the size of the tank.
> is there any type of preparation i have to do if i use any wood that comes from outdoors? and also do you think mangrove would work? or like mangrove branches?


Mangrove is fine, years ago I used that because it was the most common in local stores. It is basically black in colour, very authentic.

Collecting wood can work, there is always a bit of a risk since we cannot know what if anything it may have soaked up. Collecting it in a forest would likely resolve this issue as far as chemicals and pesticides go. Hard woods like oak and beech, there may be others but I have often seen these two recommended as "safe" as far as the hardness and sap iisues go. It must be dry, i.e., off the tree for a while so there is no sap left in it. Remove all bark. Rinse it, in boiling water.


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## magpie

I'm excited to see your tank! 

I had good luck with this guy: 
The Driftwood Store

Good customer service, reasonable pricing and quite a variety. There are large stumpy pieces and also thinner more squiggly pieces (which is what I got).


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> Mangrove is fine, years ago I used that because it was the most common in local stores. It is basically black in colour, very authentic.
> 
> Collecting wood can work, there is always a bit of a risk since we cannot know what if anything it may have soaked up. Collecting it in a forest would likely resolve this issue as far as chemicals and pesticides go. Hard woods like oak and beech, there may be others but I have often seen these two recommended as "safe" as far as the hardness and sap iisues go. It must be dry, i.e., off the tree for a while so there is no sap left in it. Remove all bark. Rinse it, in boiling water.


i looked at mangroves yesterday night and it said that they were primarily saltwater or brackish plants. are there freshwater species? or are they able to adapt to freshwater in general? and i didnt look up where they are from but if they are not from the amazon i think its safer to use them as compared to the natural wood. i live by the ocean at home so not many fallen trees but a lot of saltwater logged driftwood on the beach haha  out of curiosity, would driftwood from the ocean be ok to use? or would it leak out salt and do all kinds of nasty things?



magpie said:


> I'm excited to see your tank!
> 
> I had good luck with this guy:
> The Driftwood Store
> 
> Good customer service, reasonable pricing and quite a variety. There are large stumpy pieces and also thinner more squiggly pieces (which is what I got).


thanks magpie! i really want to get it started. unfortunately it will be a few months before that can happen but when i do i will dry to post images of it step by step  aquarium log of some kind haha. and that store looks good. i will look into it but from the pictures i am not sure if they sell branches. maybe i will ask them sometime.


----------



## Byron

> i looked at mangroves yesterday night and it said that they were primarily saltwater or brackish plants. are there freshwater species? or are they able to adapt to freshwater in general? and i didnt look up where they are from but if they are not from the amazon i think its safer to use them as compared to the natural wood. i live by the ocean at home so not many fallen trees but a lot of saltwater logged driftwood on the beach haha  out of curiosity, would driftwood from the ocean be ok to use? or would it leak out salt and do all kinds of nasty things?


I was assuming you meant the aquarium wood called mangrove that one can buy (or used to be able to buy) in some fish stores. I have not seen it for some time locally, and now I use Malaysian Driftwood which is very similar though a tad more brown than black, but very natural.

If you actualy mean planting mangrove plants, yes, they are brackish water, but they grow into large trees.


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## pandamonium

i like the malaysian driftwood since it is denser. my roommate just bought some along with mopani. i had a slab of mopani before and i had no problems with it. the water stained really quickly which was nice especially since i was running neons in it before. i would like to buy driftwood that is straight up and down and looks like trees. so maybe i can find mangrove wood somewhere. i thought they only sold the plant but if they sell the branches alone that would be awesome 

on another note, so far with this amazon tank, my father wanted to buy a 38 gallon. it is 36 long, 12 deep, and 20 high as compared to the breeder which is 36 long, i think 14 or 16 deep, and 18 high. i told him about the surface area deal and the weight of the sand. right now im just in a waiting period. i woul dlike the 40 gallon tank. but ithnk he will end up getting the 38 gallon tank. 

in the meanwhile, i exchanged a 10 gallon tank for a 5 gallon tank (i bought both but am using the smaller one in my room at school). i was thinking of starting a little nano tank of sorts. i looked up some inhabitants and i came across badis badis. they look interesting so i was thinking about doing that. 

my question is 1) are there any other fishes/plants/invertebrates i can do here that would help me when i set up my tank in the summer? i want to prep myself like for plant care or aquascaping and lighting and such. essentially just ideas for a 5 gallon tank would be awesome.


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> i like the malaysian driftwood since it is denser. my roommate just bought some along with mopani. i had a slab of mopani before and i had no problems with it. the water stained really quickly which was nice especially since i was running neons in it before. i would like to buy driftwood that is straight up and down and looks like trees. so maybe i can find mangrove wood somewhere. i thought they only sold the plant but if they sell the branches alone that would be awesome
> 
> on another note, so far with this amazon tank, my father wanted to buy a 38 gallon. it is 36 long, 12 deep, and 20 high as compared to the breeder which is 36 long, i think 14 or 16 deep, and 18 high. i told him about the surface area deal and the weight of the sand. right now im just in a waiting period. i woul dlike the 40 gallon tank. but ithnk he will end up getting the 38 gallon tank.
> 
> in the meanwhile, i exchanged a 10 gallon tank for a 5 gallon tank (i bought both but am using the smaller one in my room at school). i was thinking of starting a little nano tank of sorts. i looked up some inhabitants and i came across badis badis. they look interesting so i was thinking about doing that.
> 
> my question is 1) are there any other fishes/plants/invertebrates i can do here that would help me when i set up my tank in the summer? i want to prep myself like for plant care or aquascaping and lighting and such. essentially just ideas for a 5 gallon tank would be awesome.


I have found some chunks of Malaysian Driftwood that were fairly straight, and when placed with the largest end in the substrate can resemble tree trunks. Check out the photos of my tanks ["Aquariums" below my name on the left] and see if that is what you are thinking.

On the 5g, depending upon light, for plants you could use pygmy chain sword, dwarf sword, various crypts, Sagittaria subulata, Corkscrew Vallisneria. For floating in a small tank I like Brazilian Pennywort because it is easier to keep it in check, though Water Sprite will also work but quickly one plant can cover the entire surface. For fish, consider the dwarf species like Ember Tetra, Scarlet Badis (not Badis badis which is too large at over 3 inches), one of the Boraras rasbora dwarfs, etc. And of course freshwater shrimp. One of the cory dwarf species if soft water.

Byron.


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## pandamonium

those are great suggestions. i was looking at the scarlet badis for a while and i read that they are not too keen with dried foods so i might have to grow live foods. lately i have been browsing aquabid to find good online deals on fish. the LFS at school where i am are really really low in diversity. are there any other sites that i can use? i like to browse in my free time between tests and stuff. 

also there is a new show on ABC called the river and its about the amazon so im pretty curious. of course its not about fish but its gotten some hype. just thought it would be cool to mention haha 

now a random question i just thought of with regards to a filter. i have noticed that some tanks have modifications on the outflow valve of the the canister filter that are supposed to moderate flow. will i need this for my tank? i was thinking of just attaching a PVC pipe to the output and drill some holes in it to create a spread out flow. is this necessary to keep the plants alive?
i hope my question makes sense. and if i do use these, how should they be positioned?


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## pandamonium

also byron, i know you like natural aquariums with minimal need for outside intervention. i saw this cool picture i came across of a natural CO2 system that is run by yeast. i thought it was so cool so i just wanted to share with you and get your thoughts on it 








the website that explains it is here.
http://www.qsl.net/w2wdx/aquaria/diyco2.html
just something i thought was pretty cool even though it is outside but its still a natural form of outside


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## Byron

> those are great suggestions. i was looking at the scarlet badis for a while and i read that they are not too keen with dried foods so i might have to grow live foods. lately i have been browsing aquabid to find good online deals on fish. the LFS at school where i am are really really low in diversity. are there any other sites that i can use? i like to browse in my free time between tests and stuff.


Don't know much about online fish dealers as I never use them. But if you're in the US one of the best is AnubiasDesign owned by Mark Denaro. They get some lovely fish from time to time. Website is 
AnubiasDesign.com which for some reason rarely works for me, there is also a Yahoo group here
anubiasdesign : Anubias Design



> also there is a new show on ABC called the river and its about the amazon so im pretty curious. of course its not about fish but its gotten some hype. just thought it would be cool to mention haha


I've not spotted this, when is it on ABC?



> now a random question i just thought of with regards to a filter. i have noticed that some tanks have modifications on the outflow valve of the the canister filter that are supposed to moderate flow. will i need this for my tank? i was thinking of just attaching a PVC pipe to the output and drill some holes in it to create a spread out flow. is this necessary to keep the plants alive?
> i hope my question makes sense. and if i do use these, how should they be positioned?


If you are still going with a 55g (4-foot tank) and a canister filter (you mentioned Rena, Fluval and Eheim in post #1) you will be fine with one of these that is rated for this size tank. Some of these may have flow controls, depends upon model I think. And they all likely come with a spray bar that I would place along the top of one of the end walls and direct the flow into and down the wall. The filter intake should be at the opposite end.


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> also byron, i know you like natural aquariums with minimal need for outside intervention. i saw this cool picture i came across of a natural CO2 system that is run by yeast. i thought it was so cool so i just wanted to share with you and get your thoughts on it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the website that explains it is here.
> DIY CO2 System for Planted Aquarium
> just something i thought was pretty cool even though it is outside but its still a natural form of outside


I can't comment as I've no experience with CO2 systems. Some other members do though, so they will jump in I'm sure.


----------



## pandamonium

ok i have seen a lot of settings for the spray bar. i just wanted to know what you thought because i like the way you set up your tanks. and the show was on yesterday at 9pm eastern on ABC. it was basically about an explorer who got lost and then his beacon went off again. pretty weird and pretty creepy. 

also do you know how reliable buying online is? or would you recommend that i ask my LFS to order the fish for me? the reason i ask is that the honeycomb catfish, your profile photo, is hard to find. i saw it once at my LFS but it was gone the next week. they stock some weird stuff in my LFS at home. there was a goliath tigerfish, a 3 foot nurse shark, some lung fish. pretty cool stuff but it goes in and out. so should i buy online and ship or call and ask the store to order it?


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> ok i have seen a lot of settings for the spray bar. i just wanted to know what you thought because i like the way you set up your tanks. and the show was on yesterday at 9pm eastern on ABC. it was basically about an explorer who got lost and then his beacon went off again. pretty weird and pretty creepy.
> 
> also do you know how reliable buying online is? or would you recommend that i ask my LFS to order the fish for me? the reason i ask is that the honeycomb catfish, your profile photo, is hard to find. i saw it once at my LFS but it was gone the next week. they stock some weird stuff in my LFS at home. there was a goliath tigerfish, a 3 foot nurse shark, some lung fish. pretty cool stuff but it goes in and out. so should i buy online and ship or call and ask the store to order it?


I've never bought fish online, but others here have so they can comment. AnubiasDesign is I would expect very reliable, Mark gets very rare fish when in season, and judging from the newsgroup does a good solid business. There are probably other places too. I've never used them because being in Canada, I have to deal with customs and holding at the airport, and I just don't want to be bothered with that. I also have some very good importers in Vancouver. The advantage of a good store is that they have to deal with the fuss of importing, fish dying, disease upon arrival, etc., not me. And many will replace fish that die within a day or whatever. I can also see the fish myself before buying.

If you have good stores even some distance from where you live, it is worth investigating them. Sometimes a drive of an hour or two is worth it if you can get healthy rare fish.

As for the Spotted Driftwood Catfish, these guys are very rare. I only once saw them locally, and grabbed three--at considerable expense. I've had them for 3 years now.


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## magpie

I've not had fish shipped, but I do know that my LFS ships fish. They have a nice variety and I can vouch for their health. They don't sell fish or even put them in their storefront until they are acclimated and healthy. I've read randomly about other people purchasing fish through them.
Fish


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## pandamonium

thanks magpie and byron. i looked at getting fish from aquabid. the thing is that they are really expensive espeically with shipping and the DOA policies are really convoluted as well. my roommate ordered many shrimp from online but shrimp tend to be hardier is what i was told. i may look to put some in a tank with scarlet badis. i will have to check if they eat each other or if there are shrimp in indian waters. im trying to start he 5g as a small indian river habitat. 

regarding shipping, i may have to purchase online when i get home and set up my tank. will i need to order heat packs and such? it will be shipping to california so the temperatures arent as cold as new york, where i am now. 

also byron, i looked up spotted driftwood catfish and i read a few of your posts on them in this forum. the honeycomb catfish term must be a common name. are there vast differences from species to species? the ones i was interested in were labeled as tatia at my LFS. i dont know if this is a genus name or species name so could you clear it up. i did read a post you made where they were largely nocturnal and will never come out. you also said they like current flow. in my last post you said to face the spray bar downwards so i should leave their wood tunnels facing the spray bar?


----------



## Byron

> also byron, i looked up spotted driftwood catfish and i read a few of your posts on them in this forum. the honeycomb catfish term must be a common name. are there vast differences from species to species? the ones i was interested in were labeled as tatia at my LFS. i dont know if this is a genus name or species name so could you clear it up.


The Tatia name is explained in our profile, click on Centromochlus perugiae. Fishbase lists 13 described species in Centromochlus. Most have no photos, though you might find them elsewhere online.
Fish Identification

I have only ever once seen the one species that I purchased.



> i did read a post you made where they were largely nocturnal and will never come out. you also said they like current flow. in my last post you said to face the spray bar downwards so i should leave their wood tunnels facing the spray bar?


Yes on everything here.


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## pandamonium

i talked to my fish store and they said they had previously ordered that same variety while i was back home for break. when i looked through the new selection they had a really large wood catfish. looked exactly the same but bigger so i was assuming it was probably a different species. ill defintely try to get them to order fish for me when this tank starts up. im doing research WAY early so that i can jump right in when summer hits  

in the meantime my roommate has actually started cultivating all kinds of shrimp and aquascaping his tanks and what not. it got me to thinking. is it ok to get branches out of a creek and use that in my tank? my dad works near a little freshwater creek in a park. the branches that have fallen off have been submerged already. is it okay to use these branches? as far as i know the branches are hardwood not softwood.


----------



## Byron

pandamonium said:


> i talked to my fish store and they said they had previously ordered that same variety while i was back home for break. when i looked through the new selection they had a really large wood catfish. looked exactly the same but bigger so i was assuming it was probably a different species. ill defintely try to get them to order fish for me when this tank starts up. im doing research WAY early so that i can jump right in when summer hits
> 
> in the meantime my roommate has actually started cultivating all kinds of shrimp and aquascaping his tanks and what not. it got me to thinking. is it ok to get branches out of a creek and use that in my tank? my dad works near a little freshwater creek in a park. the branches that have fallen off have been submerged already. is it okay to use these branches? as far as i know the branches are hardwood not softwood.


There is always some risk of course, but many do collect wood. I just got some myself this week, branches that I cannot find in any store or online.

First, the wood must be thoroughly dry, which means dead. Branches or wood that have separated from the tree long enough to comply dry out, containing no sap at all but totally "dead" dry wood. Picking up such branches is the easiest, unless you can ascertain that those in the water have no internal sap. Remove all bark. Some suggest boiling or baking to hopefully deal with parasites. And wood in water is more likely to have aquatic parasites and pathogens than dry wood on land.


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> There is always some risk of course, but many do collect wood. I just got some myself this week, branches that I cannot find in any store or online.
> 
> First, the wood must be thoroughly dry, which means dead. Branches or wood that have separated from the tree long enough to comply dry out, containing no sap at all but totally "dead" dry wood. Picking up such branches is the easiest, unless you can ascertain that those in the water have no internal sap. Remove all bark. Some suggest boiling or baking to hopefully deal with parasites. And wood in water is more likely to have aquatic parasites and pathogens than dry wood on land.


hi byron and everyone, its been a while since i have been on the forum. i was finishing up finals and now i am back home and definitely really excited about this project finally happening. anyhow, i walked around behind my school and picked up oak branches which worked great to create my tank up at school. boiled them about 10 times through to make sure everyting was dead. 

now that i am back, i had a few questions and stuff i wanted to check. 

tank: 40 gallon breeder. either trying to find one at petco for the dollar per gallon sale or going to get it from my LFS
lighting: my LFS sells a dual 36 inch fixture. probably going to use one full spectrum and one cooler spectrum like you mentioned in your sticky on lighting.
filter: found a nice eheim ecco 2234 for a good price so will be using that
plants: amazon frogbit for floating and e tennelus in the front. for right now, the back will probbaly be mostly driftwood (malaysian seems to be the best) covered in java moss i think? if i get better with plants, i will use some tall ones in the background. do you ahve any suggestions?
fish: i contacted a local GBR breeder and was going to purchase 4 of them, hopefully 2 breeding pairs. they were born in march and so are fairly young. i dont have the tank set up yet but is it ok to keep them in a tank with my platies right now for about 2 weeks to a month while i set up the 40 gal? the GBRs grew up in about 82-86 degree water at a pH of 7.6, acording to my seller. my water parameters are just that. the rest of the fish will come through my LFS probablly.
substrate: i'd like to use a dark sand substrate. is that ok with the plants i have chosen? and also, where would be a good place to get that? and are there any brands you recommend?

now that this project can finally get underway, im pretty excited. thanks again in advance for your help.


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> hi byron and everyone, its been a while since i have been on the forum. i was finishing up finals and now i am back home and definitely really excited about this project finally happening. anyhow, i walked around behind my school and picked up oak branches which worked great to create my tank up at school. boiled them about 10 times through to make sure everyting was dead.
> 
> now that i am back, i had a few questions and stuff i wanted to check.
> 
> tank: 40 gallon breeder. either trying to find one at petco for the dollar per gallon sale or going to get it from my LFS
> lighting: my LFS sells a dual 36 inch fixture. probably going to use one full spectrum and one cooler spectrum like you mentioned in your sticky on lighting.
> filter: found a nice eheim ecco 2234 for a good price so will be using that
> plants: amazon frogbit for floating and e tennelus in the front. for right now, the back will probbaly be mostly driftwood (malaysian seems to be the best) covered in java moss i think? if i get better with plants, i will use some tall ones in the background. do you ahve any suggestions?
> fish: i contacted a local GBR breeder and was going to purchase 4 of them, hopefully 2 breeding pairs. they were born in march and so are fairly young. i dont have the tank set up yet but is it ok to keep them in a tank with my platies right now for about 2 weeks to a month while i set up the 40 gal? the GBRs grew up in about 82-86 degree water at a pH of 7.6, acording to my seller. my water parameters are just that. the rest of the fish will come through my LFS probablly.
> substrate: i'd like to use a dark sand substrate. is that ok with the plants i have chosen? and also, where would be a good place to get that? and are there any brands you recommend?
> 
> now that this project can finally get underway, im pretty excited. thanks again in advance for your help.


The rams should be fine if maintained in the same water as they were raised in, good there. If the temp is at 82F, no less, they will be fine with the molly short-term. I would not maintain the molly higher, and not at 82F (the upper end of its range) any longer than absolutely necessary. The higher the temperature, the harder fish have to work. The ram is different, because it needs this temp normally.

Sand substrate is ideal. You can get black sand in some fish stores or online, it will be expensive. Black pool filter sand if you can find it also works, but do not get the white. I use play sand, Quikrete Play Sand, from Home Depot/Lowe's. It is very inexpensive, and very natural--many of the areas in Amazonia have similar-looking sand. It is not black, but you can have chunks of wood, lots of plants, floating plants. On background plants, swords (Echinodorus bleherae, Echinodorus cordifolius), Brazilian Pennywort; these are in our profiles, click the shaded names. Yu want lots of wood to break up the surface of the sand into territories for two pairs of rams. And last, when you buy the rams, make sure they are a bonded pair. Not all females will be accepted by the male.

Byron.


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> The rams should be fine if maintained in the same water as they were raised in, good there. If the temp is at 82F, no less, they will be fine with the molly short-term. I would not maintain the molly higher, and not at 82F (the upper end of its range) any longer than absolutely necessary. The higher the temperature, the harder fish have to work. The ram is different, because it needs this temp normally.
> 
> Sand substrate is ideal. You can get black sand in some fish stores or online, it will be expensive. Black pool filter sand if you can find it also works, but do not get the white. I use play sand, Quikrete Play Sand, from Home Depot/Lowe's. It is very inexpensive, and very natural--many of the areas in Amazonia have similar-looking sand. It is not black, but you can have chunks of wood, lots of plants, floating plants. On background plants, swords (Echinodorus bleherae, Echinodorus cordifolius), Brazilian Pennywort; these are in our profiles, click the shaded names. Yu want lots of wood to break up the surface of the sand into territories for two pairs of rams. And last, when you buy the rams, make sure they are a bonded pair. Not all females will be accepted by the male.
> 
> Byron.


the rams were pretty nice. they were tiny though. from a little smaller than 1/2 an inch to about 3/4 of an inch. i cant sex them yet, at least to my knowledge. im keeping them in a breeder box for now so my platies dont have lunch too early haha  
i went to home depot and looked at some of the same. they didnt have quikrete but they had sakrete, im assuming they are the same. luckily one of the bags was broken (lucky for me not for home depot) and the grain was really fine which was nice cuz i do plan on keeping some catfish. 
as for building my stand, i found plans online and picked up some spare wood to start this weekend. 
regarding the lighting, do you recommend that i use 2 lights? like t8s or t5s? right now 40 gallon breeders are hard to come by. there are 3 that i am looking at. 
1) petsmart - $120 which includes lid and lighting fixture, which has only 1 slot for a bulb, so i'd buy a $50 light fixture from LFS
2) LFS - $100 which includes just the tank. light fixture through my lfs would be $50 for a dual fixture. the lid i would either make or buy for anywhere from $10-$30
also im looking for other foreground plants similar to e tenellus but smaller. are there any other amazon plants that are good foreground plants that are shorter? in the end i will still use tenellus but i wanted some more variety. thanks


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> the rams were pretty nice. they were tiny though. from a little smaller than 1/2 an inch to about 3/4 of an inch. i cant sex them yet, at least to my knowledge. im keeping them in a breeder box for now so my platies dont have lunch too early haha
> i went to home depot and looked at some of the same. they didnt have quikrete but they had sakrete, im assuming they are the same. luckily one of the bags was broken (lucky for me not for home depot) and the grain was really fine which was nice cuz i do plan on keeping some catfish.
> as for building my stand, i found plans online and picked up some spare wood to start this weekend.
> regarding the lighting, do you recommend that i use 2 lights? like t8s or t5s? right now 40 gallon breeders are hard to come by. there are 3 that i am looking at.
> 1) petsmart - $120 which includes lid and lighting fixture, which has only 1 slot for a bulb, so i'd buy a $50 light fixture from LFS
> 2) LFS - $100 which includes just the tank. light fixture through my lfs would be $50 for a dual fixture. the lid i would either make or buy for anywhere from $10-$30
> also im looking for other foreground plants similar to e tenellus but smaller. are there any other amazon plants that are good foreground plants that are shorter? in the end i will still use tenellus but i wanted some more variety. thanks


As this is going to be an Amazonian geographic tank, I would not have bright light. So T8 is better; do you know the tube length that comes with the Petsmart tank? And the tank length for comparison? My last tank that I got from Petsmart was a tank/hood combo and it worked fine and saved money.

I myself would not try "carpet" type plants. Amazonian fish occur in streams with sand substrates littered with branches and leaves but very rarely plants. We use aquatic plants to represent marginal vegetation, flooded forest, etc. I also like seeing patches of sand, esp if you have substrate fish that will feed in these areas.

One good low sword that contrasts well with the pygmy chain sword is the dwarf sword in our profile. A trio of these would be nice.


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> As this is going to be an Amazonian geographic tank, I would not have bright light. So T8 is better; do you know the tube length that comes with the Petsmart tank? And the tank length for comparison? My last tank that I got from Petsmart was a tank/hood combo and it worked fine and saved money.
> 
> I myself would not try "carpet" type plants. Amazonian fish occur in streams with sand substrates littered with branches and leaves but very rarely plants. We use aquatic plants to represent marginal vegetation, flooded forest, etc. I also like seeing patches of sand, esp if you have substrate fish that will feed in these areas.
> 
> One good low sword that contrasts well with the pygmy chain sword is the dwarf sword in our profile. A trio of these would be nice.


the tube length of the petsmart tank is 36 inches, which matches the length of the 40BR. there is only one light slot though so i wasnt sure how to go about that. my LFS sells a cheap light fixture that has 2 slots for $50 but if one slot works then i'd do that. which one do you recommend and what type of lighting should i use? in your sticky you mention that 2 lights with one being full spectrum and the other being cool is the best. how would this work if i use only 1 light?
ill try to find the dwarf sword as well as the pygmy sword. ive seen them online and some in my LFS.
also my LFS had a single driftwood catfish, the same as your profile image. i asked them the species name and its centromochlus perugiae too. is care for these fish hard? i was gonna ask them to order a few for me (from 4-6). will they have territory issues with the rams i already purchased?


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## Byron

> the tube length of the petsmart tank is 36 inches, which matches the length of the 40BR. there is only one light slot though so i wasnt sure how to go about that. my LFS sells a cheap light fixture that has 2 slots for $50 but if one slot works then i'd do that. which one do you recommend and what type of lighting should i use? in your sticky you mention that 2 lights with one being full spectrum and the other being cool is the best. how would this work if i use only 1 light?


I must revise that article, with the tubes now available one can achieve the same result with one tube. And on that, one with around 6500K works. On my single-tube tanks I use the Life-Glo 6700K tube that fits. This is a bit expensive, compared to other brands, so if that is a concern, another good one is ZooMed's Ultra Sun at 6700K. Both of these will come from a fish store, or online. If you want to save more money (which is a fair consideration for many of us) you can use the "daylight" tubes with 6500K made by GE, Phillips and Sylvania. These you get in hardware-type stores. Having all of these mentioned, I still find the Life-Glo just a tad more cool than the others. But this is appearance, the plants we are discussing will be fine under any of these mentioned. A single T8 tube full length of the tank will work fine with the planned aquascape.



> also my LFS had a single driftwood catfish, the same as your profile image. i asked them the species name and its centromochlus perugiae too. is care for these fish hard? i was gonna ask them to order a few for me (from 4-6). will they have territory issues with the rams i already purchased?


This is a species with oddities.:lol: First, you never see it [except for the feeding trick mentioned later]because it is strictly nocturnal--it will only appear in total darkness. When I first acquired my trio, I had to inspect the tank after midnight using a flashlight in order to find them. 

Second, during daylight they remain in tunnels in the wood. And this is essential, without wood containing tunnels they will not be happy. Though this is easily provided, the Malaysian Driftwood so readily available now is ideal.

Third, they need some stronger filter current, but most of the other fish do not. In my 5-foot tank this is easily provided by removing the spray bar from the canister and using just the spigot, aimed at the end wall to create a decent flow out from the wall. I placed the standing piece of driftwood about 2 inches from the wall, and the three woodcats within a day were residing in it.

Fourth, feeding. It is difficult to know if they are eating when they only feed in total darkness, and the other catfish are nocturnal too. My corys are out and about at night with the woodcats. But twice a week I feed them frozen bloodworms, and they quickly learned this happens around 5 pm. If I slide back the tank glass around 5 pm, without fail the three woodcats will rapidly emerge from their tunnels and race around the wood in anticipation. You have to ensure they get the bloodworms, using a baster or similar.

They are such funny little fish, it really is a shame they are so secretive. I've had mine for over three years now, and another member Dawn has had hers more than 10 years.


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## pandamonium

so i should orient the tube something like this? i drew a picture just to be clear. pointing the outflow at the wall and having it push back, will that affect flow elsewhere in the tank? like will it be sufficient for plants on the other side? my tank will be 3 feet so a bit shorter than yours. and the intake should be on the opposite side of the tank? 
this reminded me. in your thread you said something about having no chemical filtration. could you elaborate on that? if i am using a canister filter, should i omit the activated carbon in favor of more biological media? 
lighting-wise i looked up the tubes and came across a comparison thread on this other forum. it showed what each type of light (4500K, 6000K, 10000K, actinic, etc) looked like in a tank so i could get a good feel of it. the prices shouldnt be too bad. ill just look around for a good deal somewhere.
yeah the driftwood cats are really cool. i just hope that i'll be able to ask the lfs to order some. i have looked up their breeding in the event that i have a pair or two. seems really similar to cory breeding.


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## pandamonium

this was hte image i forgot


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> so i should orient the tube something like this? i drew a picture just to be clear. pointing the outflow at the wall and having it push back, will that affect flow elsewhere in the tank? like will it be sufficient for plants on the other side? my tank will be 3 feet so a bit shorter than yours. and the intake should be on the opposite side of the tank?
> this reminded me. in your thread you said something about having no chemical filtration. could you elaborate on that? if i am using a canister filter, should i omit the activated carbon in favor of more biological media?
> lighting-wise i looked up the tubes and came across a comparison thread on this other forum. it showed what each type of light (4500K, 6000K, 10000K, actinic, etc) looked like in a tank so i could get a good feel of it. the prices shouldnt be too bad. ill just look around for a good deal somewhere.
> yeah the driftwood cats are really cool. i just hope that i'll be able to ask the lfs to order some. i have looked up their breeding in the event that i have a pair or two. seems really similar to cory breeding.


Picture didn't come through I guess. But if this is a canister filter, definitely the filter intake should be at one end and the outflow into the tank at the opposite. Then remove the spraybar so there is a stronger direct flow from the spigot. On my 5-foot tank I have the spigot about a foot in from the end wall, mainly because the filter tubing isn't longer, but it has worked well for this. The force goes into the end wall and then back into the tank. The standing wood is in the direct flow from the filter which they seem to appreciate.

Never use carbon or any chemical filtration with live plants. Carbon removes many substances, including DOC (dissolved organic carbon) and this is a major plant nutrient. Carbon is often in short supply as it is, the last thing you want is to be reducing it even further. Carbon will also adsorb other nutrients.

With a single tube, I would stay close to 6500K. This is actually the best spectrum for plants according to that study on full spectrum/cool white--this is roughly it. It also gives the truest rendition of fish and plant colours.

Edit: Saw the picture after posting. I would place the wood in the direct path of the flow from the filter.


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> Picture didn't come through I guess. But if this is a canister filter, definitely the filter intake should be at one end and the outflow into the tank at the opposite. Then remove the spraybar so there is a stronger direct flow from the spigot. On my 5-foot tank I have the spigot about a foot in from the end wall, mainly because the filter tubing isn't longer, but it has worked well for this. The force goes into the end wall and then back into the tank. The standing wood is in the direct flow from the filter which they seem to appreciate.
> 
> Never use carbon or any chemical filtration with live plants. Carbon removes many substances, including DOC (dissolved organic carbon) and this is a major plant nutrient. Carbon is often in short supply as it is, the last thing you want is to be reducing it even further. Carbon will also adsorb other nutrients.
> 
> With a single tube, I would stay close to 6500K. This is actually the best spectrum for plants according to that study on full spectrum/cool white--this is roughly it. It also gives the truest rendition of fish and plant colours.
> 
> Edit: Saw the picture after posting. I would place the wood in the direct path of the flow from the filter.


ok ill keep that in mind as i do that. with regards to the wood, i assume malaysian driftwood should be good enough? like close to the natural setting as possible. i have seem manzanita, cholla, and mopani woods, which all seem to be african and have some fungus problems. if i tie in some java moss to malaysian driftwood, do you think that will give it a flooded forest feel? or should i go for the more tree-like manzanita wood?
also, about plants, i checked online for dwarf and pygmy swords. the prices were reasonable, especially since the only store around me that sells swords are ADA stores so quite expensive. how many plants of each should i buy to start off? would 3 or 4 plants of each be good? and then maybe 2-4 pennywort or broad leaf swords as well? just wanted to know how many i should buy since they propagate through runners.


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> ok ill keep that in mind as i do that. with regards to the wood, i assume malaysian driftwood should be good enough? like close to the natural setting as possible. i have seem manzanita, cholla, and mopani woods, which all seem to be african and have some fungus problems. if i tie in some java moss to malaysian driftwood, do you think that will give it a flooded forest feel? or should i go for the more tree-like manzanita wood?
> also, about plants, i checked online for dwarf and pygmy swords. the prices were reasonable, especially since the only store around me that sells swords are ADA stores so quite expensive. how many plants of each should i buy to start off? would 3 or 4 plants of each be good? and then maybe 2-4 pennywort or broad leaf swords as well? just wanted to know how many i should buy since they propagate through runners.


The Malaysian Driftwood is ideal, I use this only in my tanks, and you can get chunks with scores of tunnels. My loaches have a field day with this stuff, playing tag through all the channels in the wood. And it suits the woodcats admirably. Being heavy, it sinks immediately so no problems holding it down.

Plants. For a 3-foot tank, one basic sword (Echinodorus bleherae), and a couple of pygmy chain swords (these once settled will send out runners and within a couple months cover the substrate with plants). If you can get the Dwarf sword, 3 is nice; these are slow-growing but their dark green is a nice contrast to the lighter chain sword green. Pennywort being a stem plant will likely be sold in a bunch, so one is sufficient; once settled, this will grow like mad, floating or planted; it makes a nice floating plant if you can't get Water Sprite which is my favourite floater.


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## pandamonium

ok my lfs sells malaysian driftwood for pretty cheap. i just hope i can find the right sizes. i bought the tank yesterday and i was wrong about the size of the lighting. the fixture itself is 36 inches but the light bulb it contains is only 24 inches. will this change anything? 
also, i have been so focused on the tank i forgot about the inhabitants. right now i only have GBRs and driftwood cats on my list. do you have any suggestions on other fish to use in the middle to upper parts of the water column? also, any small plecos or other type of catfish would be nice. i was thinking rafael cats or bristlenose plecos but if there are any others i'd defintely look into it.


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## Byron

> i bought the tank yesterday and i was wrong about the size of the lighting. the fixture itself is 36 inches but the light bulb it contains is only 24 inches. will this change anything?


That will be pushing it a bit. You can try it and see, no point getting another fixture if it works.



> also, i have been so focused on the tank i forgot about the inhabitants. right now i only have GBRs and driftwood cats on my list. do you have any suggestions on other fish to use in the middle to upper parts of the water column? also, any small plecos or other type of catfish would be nice. i was thinking rafael cats or bristlenose plecos but if there are any others i'd defintely look into it.


Rafael gets too large for what is being considered here. Corys are OK, in a smallish group (5+), but only a couple species will manage at the higher temps the rams need. Bristlenose pleco is OK but I would hold off until the tank is established; this fish eats algae and will acclimate better if algae is present, which it won't at first. Also, again the temp; while this is the high end for the BN, it is better not to keep fish in the high end of their range as it wears them out the warmer the water.

One issue with substrate fish, if you intend to spawn the rams, this is not advisable. Catfish are nocturnal and will readily devour eggs or fry in darkness when the ram parents are resting.

Plenty of ideas for upper fish, but the higher temp must be kept in mind. Have a look in the characins section in the profiles.


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> That will be pushing it a bit. You can try it and see, no point getting another fixture if it works.
> 
> 
> 
> Rafael gets too large for what is being considered here. Corys are OK, in a smallish group (5+), but only a couple species will manage at the higher temps the rams need. Bristlenose pleco is OK but I would hold off until the tank is established; this fish eats algae and will acclimate better if algae is present, which it won't at first. Also, again the temp; while this is the high end for the BN, it is better not to keep fish in the high end of their range as it wears them out the warmer the water.
> 
> One issue with substrate fish, if you intend to spawn the rams, this is not advisable. Catfish are nocturnal and will readily devour eggs or fry in darkness when the ram parents are resting.
> 
> Plenty of ideas for upper fish, but the higher temp must be kept in mind. Have a look in the characins section in the profiles.


ok i will try and see if i can do anything with the lighting fixture maybe expand it or something. worse come to worst i will buy the other light fixture. 
i may do cories. i like them and how quirky they are sometimes. i have had a few for quite sometime. ill look for some cories that can tolerate higher temperatures. and i will also no longer consider the rafael cat. i also read it burrows which may become problematic. 
i will browse the profiles as soon as i can. i was thinking maybe lemon tetras? the degree of their yellow color will probably be the make or break for me. pencilfish also are intriguing so i may try those. ill look them up.
ive gotten around to ordering the filter. i read through what you told me before and i think eheim is the way to go. there are three options though, the classic, the ECCO, and the ultra g. i think the ultra G is a bit too much for my needs so it boils down to the ECCO and classic. 
i dont know what kind of flow rate my tank would require. and i know the the ECCO brand is self priming as well as having media baskets. but the classic has higher flow. what criteria should i base my decision on?
btw the websites i am using to buy the filters is here
Eheim Classic Canister Aquarium Filters, Eheim Classic Canister Filter 2213 for the classic eheim
and Eheim Ecco Pro Canister Aquarium Filters, Eheim Ecco Canister Filter 2232 - 106gph for the ECCO pro.


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> ok i will try and see if i can do anything with the lighting fixture maybe expand it or something. worse come to worst i will buy the other light fixture.
> i may do cories. i like them and how quirky they are sometimes. i have had a few for quite sometime. ill look for some cories that can tolerate higher temperatures. and i will also no longer consider the rafael cat. i also read it burrows which may become problematic.
> i will browse the profiles as soon as i can. i was thinking maybe lemon tetras? the degree of their yellow color will probably be the make or break for me. pencilfish also are intriguing so i may try those. ill look them up.
> ive gotten around to ordering the filter. i read through what you told me before and i think eheim is the way to go. there are three options though, the classic, the ECCO, and the ultra g. i think the ultra G is a bit too much for my needs so it boils down to the ECCO and classic.
> i dont know what kind of flow rate my tank would require. and i know the the ECCO brand is self priming as well as having media baskets. but the classic has higher flow. what criteria should i base my decision on?
> btw the websites i am using to buy the filters is here
> Eheim Classic Canister Aquarium Filters, Eheim Classic Canister Filter 2213 for the classic eheim
> and Eheim Ecco Pro Canister Aquarium Filters, Eheim Ecco Canister Filter 2232 - 106gph for the ECCO pro.


Eheim are good filters. I've never used either of these, I have a couple of Pro II canisters. Looking at the data, I myself would like to have baskets for the various media, and the Classic seems to require you to just put the media in and separate it with the pads. I personally wouldn't want that, I can see all the stuff mixing up, and while that may not matter to some it does to me.:lol: So of these two I would choose the Ecco Pro 2232.

Just noticed they have different GPH numbers but that doesn't matter, with live plants this is not critical. You will still have sufficient next to the filter return for the woodcats.


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## pandamonium

thanks byron the help you give is pushing me along at a great pace. got a lot of stuff down and ordering things left and right  can't wait for this tank to start happening 
i meant to give the link for the 2234 which is a bit more expensive. would the 2232 suffice even though its rated for tanks 35 gallons and below, and my tank is 40 gallons?


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> thanks byron the help you give is pushing me along at a great pace. got a lot of stuff down and ordering things left and right  can't wait for this tank to start happening
> i meant to give the link for the 2234 which is a bit more expensive. would the 2232 suffice even though its rated for tanks 35 gallons and below, and my tank is 40 gallons?


I actually did spot that, they listed the three models, and I think you are OK with the smaller. Again, we have plants. A well planted tank actually needs no filter at all, so keeping that in mind you can go with the 2232 which will provide all that you need being water circulation through media to remove suspended particulate matter and carry water nutrients to the plants.


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> I actually did spot that, they listed the three models, and I think you are OK with the smaller. Again, we have plants. A well planted tank actually needs no filter at all, so keeping that in mind you can go with the 2232 which will provide all that you need being water circulation through media to remove suspended particulate matter and carry water nutrients to the plants.


ok i just bought the filter. it was 92 total including shipping which is a lot cheaper than places near me sell for. pretty much everything now is either shipping or on hold waiting to be shipped. im going to try to see what i can do about the lighting fixture today. you said it was minimal for growing anything which worries me a little. also, i would imagine that since the light is smaller than the length of the tank, it wont reach the far left and right ends of the tank as well . im going to try to work with that and see if it can be altered. if not, do you think lifting the light higher would help with this issue?


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> ok i just bought the filter. it was 92 total including shipping which is a lot cheaper than places near me sell for. pretty much everything now is either shipping or on hold waiting to be shipped. im going to try to see what i can do about the lighting fixture today. you said it was minimal for growing anything which worries me a little. also, i would imagine that since the light is smaller than the length of the tank, it wont reach the far left and right ends of the tank as well . im going to try to work with that and see if it can be altered. if not, do you think lifting the light higher would help with this issue?


No, because the higher the light source is from the water surface, the less intense the light will be. Fluorescent fixtures should sit on the tank frame (with a glass between to prevent issues with water) so that the light is directed into the water for maximum benefit. Of course, if one is using light that is greater than what is needed, it can be raised up and suspended over the tank. The farther the light has to travel, the weaker it becomes; and the dispersion of light into the air around the room when it is suspended will reduce the intensity significantly.


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> No, because the higher the light source is from the water surface, the less intense the light will be. Fluorescent fixtures should sit on the tank frame (with a glass between to prevent issues with water) so that the light is directed into the water for maximum benefit. Of course, if one is using light that is greater than what is needed, it can be raised up and suspended over the tank. The farther the light has to travel, the weaker it becomes; and the dispersion of light into the air around the room when it is suspended will reduce the intensity significantly.


ok that was what i thought would happen. im going to look at my light fixture today and see what i can do with it. if its unworkable then i may by a supplemental light on the side to be sure that i have beyond a minimal amount of light to the tank. when this tank is all done, hopefulyl in a week or two, ill defintely try to post pictures.


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## pandamonium

hey byron, if i can't find a t8 bulb through lifeglo, will a t5 work? right now i am gonn amodify by life fixture. im going to cut it down the middle and expand it to 36 inches. ill have to double check if this is possible but i think it should be. would a t5HO light work instead of a t8? both hopefully will be 36 inches.


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> hey byron, if i can't find a t8 bulb through lifeglo, will a t5 work? right now i am gonn amodify by life fixture. im going to cut it down the middle and expand it to 36 inches. ill have to double check if this is possible but i think it should be. would a t5HO light work instead of a t8? both hopefully will be 36 inches.


T5 and T8 require different fixtures, the tubes are not interchangeable.

In tubes of the same type (example, Life-Glo 2) and length, the T5 is about 1.5 times brighter than the T8.


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> T5 and T8 require different fixtures, the tubes are not interchangeable.
> 
> In tubes of the same type (example, Life-Glo 2) and length, the T5 is about 1.5 times brighter than the T8.


ok got it. i went to the fish store and i checked the tubes just to see. they did have a life-glo tube that was 6700K. now i just have to modify my fixture to work with that tube. 
about heaters, i looked on your tanks and 3 out of 4 of them use the fluval 150 watt heaters. 150 watt seems to be able to cover 30-55 gallons from what i saw online. can i use any 150w heater or do you have a certain favorite. im leaning toward the fluval because it is available locally, but it is $36


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> ok got it. i went to the fish store and i checked the tubes just to see. they did have a life-glo tube that was 6700K. now i just have to modify my fixture to work with that tube.
> about heaters, i looked on your tanks and 3 out of 4 of them use the fluval 150 watt heaters. 150 watt seems to be able to cover 30-55 gallons from what i saw online. can i use any 150w heater or do you have a certain favorite. im leaning toward the fluval because it is available locally, but it is $36


I should check the equipment data on my Log, not sure how accurate it now is.

I have 200w heaters on my larger tanks, two heaters on each. Except for the one with the Eheim that has a heating element built in [this is the way to go if you have the option]. But the 4-foot and larger should have two heaters, one at either end next to the filter intake and return respectively.

As for the Fluval, the ones I have are the expensive digital screen heaters. I have four of these, and two have already failed. I bought Eheim Jager to replace those that failed.

Heater is the one piece of equipment that we should never go cheap on. A failure can kill a tank of fish overnight, whether failing to heat or failing to shut off.


----------



## pandamonium

Byron said:


> I should check the equipment data on my Log, not sure how accurate it now is.
> 
> I have 200w heaters on my larger tanks, two heaters on each. Except for the one with the Eheim that has a heating element built in [this is the way to go if you have the option]. But the 4-foot and larger should have two heaters, one at either end next to the filter intake and return respectively.
> 
> As for the Fluval, the ones I have are the expensive digital screen heaters. I have four of these, and two have already failed. I bought Eheim Jager to replace those that failed.
> 
> Heater is the one piece of equipment that we should never go cheap on. A failure can kill a tank of fish overnight, whether failing to heat or failing to shut off.


i was looking at either the eheim jagers or this hydor inline heater. price wise they are pretty similar. the inline heater is 200W or 300W and the eheim jagers i was looking at 150W. im assuming the inline heater is like the one that is built into your filter? the canister i ordered, the ecco pro 2232, i do not think it has a heater built in. what would you recommend? from reading other people's thoughts on inline versus submerged, many like the inline because the tank temperature remains constant since water is heated before returning to the tank. but others like the submerged because accidents with the temp control knob are avoided more easily. here are the links to the inline one i am considering and the eheim jagers.
Amazon.com: Hydor ETH 300 In-Line Heater UL 300W f/16mm & 5/8" Hose: Pet Supplies = inline 300W
Amazon.com: Hydor ETH 200 In-Line Heater UL 200W f/12mm & 1/2" Hose: Pet Supplies = inline 200W (the difference is so minimal i might as well buy the 300W if inline heaters are the way to go.
 = submersible 200W

the heater i have on my 10 gallon right now is submersible and the temperature reamins constant but i also have good circulation where i placed it. what do you think? inline or submersible?


----------



## Byron

pandamonium said:


> i was looking at either the eheim jagers or this hydor inline heater. price wise they are pretty similar. the inline heater is 200W or 300W and the eheim jagers i was looking at 150W. im assuming the inline heater is like the one that is built into your filter? the canister i ordered, the ecco pro 2232, i do not think it has a heater built in. what would you recommend? from reading other people's thoughts on inline versus submerged, many like the inline because the tank temperature remains constant since water is heated before returning to the tank. but others like the submerged because accidents with the temp control knob are avoided more easily. here are the links to the inline one i am considering and the eheim jagers.
> Amazon.com: Hydor ETH 300 In-Line Heater UL 300W f/16mm & 5/8" Hose: Pet Supplies = inline 300W
> Amazon.com: Hydor ETH 200 In-Line Heater UL 200W f/12mm & 1/2" Hose: Pet Supplies = inline 200W (the difference is so minimal i might as well buy the 300W if inline heaters are the way to go.
> = submersible 200W
> 
> the heater i have on my 10 gallon right now is submersible and the temperature reamins constant but i also have good circulation where i placed it. what do you think? inline or submersible?




My Eheim has the heating coil in the bottom of the filter. In 14 years of continuous operation on my 90g tank, this unit has never failed (heater or filter).

The Hydor Inline heaters I have not used, but having checked their website it is something I would consider. Maybe other members with experience can offer advice. I like that it is not in the tank.

Just make sure you get the one that fits the diameter tube you have on your filter. The 200w is adequate, but it comes in two sizes.


----------



## pandamonium

Byron said:


> My Eheim has the heating coil in the bottom of the filter. In 14 years of continuous operation on my 90g tank, this unit has never failed (heater or filter).
> 
> The Hydor Inline heaters I have not used, but having checked their website it is something I would consider. Maybe other members with experience can offer advice. I like that it is not in the tank.
> 
> Just make sure you get the one that fits the diameter tube you have on your filter. The 200w is adequate, but it comes in two sizes.


i decided on a submersible heater that i may try to DIY into an inline heater after some searches on the internet. ill run a test on my empty 40 gallon tank first to see if it leaks/doesnt heat well etc etc. if either or those happen, then i will place the heater by the outflow of the canister filter.
i looked at DIY LED lighting as well since my bulb isnt bright enough (24 inches only over a 36 inch tank). problem is i know nothing about LED lighting. i have done soldering before on a pocket amplifier i built last summer but i dont get how LED lighting works and all those calculations (PAR, PUR, etc). so that will be next summer's project 
so i measured the t8 36 inch tube. it came to about 35 and 11/16ths. my hood is 35 and a half i think? or maybe 35. so what i am going to do is saw the center piece in half and cut the wires. lop off the sides of the housing and extend the bulb ends to that distance. then solder everything that needs to be soldered back in place. as far as i know, my hood should be able to power a 36 inch t8 as well as a 24 inch t8. i'll attach a picture. do you think its feasible?


----------



## Byron

pandamonium said:


> i decided on a submersible heater that i may try to DIY into an inline heater after some searches on the internet. ill run a test on my empty 40 gallon tank first to see if it leaks/doesnt heat well etc etc. if either or those happen, then i will place the heater by the outflow of the canister filter.
> i looked at DIY LED lighting as well since my bulb isnt bright enough (24 inches only over a 36 inch tank). problem is i know nothing about LED lighting. i have done soldering before on a pocket amplifier i built last summer but i dont get how LED lighting works and all those calculations (PAR, PUR, etc). so that will be next summer's project
> so i measured the t8 36 inch tube. it came to about 35 and 11/16ths. my hood is 35 and a half i think? or maybe 35. so what i am going to do is saw the center piece in half and cut the wires. lop off the sides of the housing and extend the bulb ends to that distance. then solder everything that needs to be soldered back in place. as far as i know, my hood should be able to power a 36 inch t8 as well as a 24 inch t8. i'll attach a picture. do you think its feasible?


I will definitely leave this for the DIY experts to answer.:lol:


----------



## pandamonium

Byron said:


> I will definitely leave this for the DIY experts to answer.:lol:


haha that is exactly what i did too  i put this question down on another forum to see what they thought of it. apparently it can be done but it is not very efficient. the main point was that the ballast could not support the extra wattage of a 36 inch tube. so they told me to either split and use 2 u-shaped tubes or use CFLs. the u shaped tubes i could not seem to find any that were 6500K or 6700K. CFLs i could find them. since i am aiming for lower light, i think you recommended a single 36inch t8 which would have been about 40 watts, i may try for 3 or 4 13-watt CFL bulbs. all i would have to do rip out the "guts" of my fixture now, get sockets, and then wire and solder those into the hood fixture. that was my first idea.
my other idea was LED light bulbs. not individual bulbs but like bulbs containing more than one LED in them. problem is i do not know much about LEDs and the light they emit. is it different than fluorescent lighting? it seems to be brighter. i was interested in it but not sure.

also my filter comes in tomorrow and heater soon. i am going to buy a backup heater tomorrow and use that to start warming my tank. once the temp is right and the filter cleans the water more, im going to move my rams in, when i place the driftwood and frogbit (which also comes in tomorw). i have a few quesitons here: should rams be put in first? or should i put in the hatchetfish i bought as well. i dont want to have the rams think that they own the entire tank then attack everything i put in after them
and the frogbit came with a warning that there may be duckweed, snails, or CR shrimplets. i will pick out the duckweed and wash teh shrimp off. is potassium permanganate the best way to deal with snails? or should that not be an issue for me?


----------



## Byron

> haha that is exactly what i did too  i put this question down on another forum to see what they thought of it. apparently it can be done but it is not very efficient. the main point was that the ballast could not support the extra wattage of a 36 inch tube. so they told me to either split and use 2 u-shaped tubes or use CFLs. the u shaped tubes i could not seem to find any that were 6500K or 6700K. CFLs i could find them. since i am aiming for lower light, i think you recommended a single 36inch t8 which would have been about 40 watts, i may try for 3 or 4 13-watt CFL bulbs. all i would have to do rip out the "guts" of my fixture now, get sockets, and then wire and solder those into the hood fixture. that was my first idea.
> my other idea was LED light bulbs. not individual bulbs but like bulbs containing more than one LED in them. problem is i do not know much about LEDs and the light they emit. is it different than fluorescent lighting? it seems to be brighter. i was interested in it but not sure.


It takes a lot of LED's to provide sufficient light for plants esp in deeper tanks. As you seem capable of building the hood, I would go with sockets and use CFL bulbs (screw-in). If this is a 3-foot tank, four sockets will work. Usually they are sideways, so the bulbs are parallel to the water surface; if vertical you will need plenty of room.



> also my filter comes in tomorrow and heater soon. i am going to buy a backup heater tomorrow and use that to start warming my tank. once the temp is right and the filter cleans the water more, im going to move my rams in, when i place the driftwood and frogbit (which also comes in tomorw). i have a few quesitons here: should rams be put in first? or should i put in the hatchetfish i bought as well. i dont want to have the rams think that they own the entire tank then attack everything i put in after them and the frogbit came with a warning that there may be duckweed, snails, or CR shrimplets. i will pick out the duckweed and wash teh shrimp off. is potassium permanganate the best way to deal with snails? or should that not be an issue for me?


I would not add the rams first; they will not be as stressed if the tank is established a bit. If you can keep them where they are now, I would wait until the other fish are in. Make sure all the plants are in and growing, and there are floating plants (these work faster at removing ammonia and keeping the water stable). Then add the fish, rams last.

I wold not try to "clean" the plants. Snails, shrimp and duckweed is not a problem, in fact all three are fine. The duckweed you can scoop out with a small net. No solution would kill it anyway, without killing the frogbit. And snail eggs are near impossible to kill without also harming the plants. Snails are your friends in the aquarium.

Byron.


----------



## redchigh

NMot sure why you'd wash the shrimp off- they sell for about $5-$10 a piece. Keep them. They'll probably get eaten anyway- they won't hurt a thing.

Potassium Permagranate will damage your plants- never use it for anything. Snails will not harm anything. I encourage them in my tanks. They will only overpopulate if you overfeed.

How are you cycling the tank? Is it cycled already? I'm pretty sure hatchetfish aren't too great for a fish-in cycle. (but I could be wrong)

Do you have plants other than frogbit in the tank right now? More plants will prevent a cycle, but it would probably take quite a bit of frogbit to absorb all of the ammonia.

As for the Co2, I wouldn't worry about it. Yeast-based systems usually do more harm than good due to their unreliablility. Their CO2 production peaks, then decreases, and can't be turned off at night. A healthy substrate (soil is only an example), combined with fish respiration, will produce plenty of CO2 for medium to low-light plants.


----------



## pandamonium

Byron said:


> It takes a lot of LED's to provide sufficient light for plants esp in deeper tanks. As you seem capable of building the hood, I would go with sockets and use CFL bulbs (screw-in). If this is a 3-foot tank, four sockets will work. Usually they are sideways, so the bulbs are parallel to the water surface; if vertical you will need plenty of room.
> I would not add the rams first; they will not be as stressed if the tank is established a bit. If you can keep them where they are now, I would wait until the other fish are in. Make sure all the plants are in and growing, and there are floating plants (these work faster at removing ammonia and keeping the water stable). Then add the fish, rams last.
> I wold not try to "clean" the plants. Snails, shrimp and duckweed is not a problem, in fact all three are fine. The duckweed you can scoop out with a small net. No solution would kill it anyway, without killing the frogbit. And snail eggs are near impossible to kill without also harming the plants. Snails are your friends in the aquarium.
> 
> Byron.


ok i will do that then. yeah most LED lighting that i have looked up has been primarily for heavily planted aquariums with CO2 supplement and all. im aiming for one that should establish its own harmony between plants and fish. im heading to home depot today to check out sockets and such and then probably gonna remove the tube lighting from the hood. 
my floating plants are coming in today. i got some frogbit for free from a guy near me. sending about 30 pieces. ill put those in today and then get my driftwood in as well once my filter comes, also today. 
ok i was told to use KMNO4 to clean the plants and seeing that i never have owned live plants (except some crypt lucens i bought the other day which looks and grows very nicely too haha), i didnt know that it would harm the plants as well.
ill wait a bit and use this cycle-helper stuff i have had and used in my other tank. its like bacteria solution or something. it helped me cycle my last tank.



redchigh said:


> NMot sure why you'd wash the shrimp off- they sell for about $5-$10 a piece. Keep them. They'll probably get eaten anyway- they won't hurt a thing.
> 
> Potassium Permagranate will damage your plants- never use it for anything. Snails will not harm anything. I encourage them in my tanks. They will only overpopulate if you overfeed.
> 
> How are you cycling the tank? Is it cycled already? I'm pretty sure hatchetfish aren't too great for a fish-in cycle. (but I could be wrong)
> 
> Do you have plants other than frogbit in the tank right now? More plants will prevent a cycle, but it would probably take quite a bit of frogbit to absorb all of the ammonia.
> 
> As for the Co2, I wouldn't worry about it. Yeast-based systems usually do more harm than good due to their unreliablility. Their CO2 production peaks, then decreases, and can't be turned off at night. A healthy substrate (soil is only an example), combined with fish respiration, will produce plenty of CO2 for medium to low-light plants.


this was really helpful redchigh  ok i wont use the KMNO4. yeah i didnt know that it had bad effects. my friend told me otherwise but he also is new at keeping plants. so i wont buy it. saves me money too  
cycling i started doing a fishless cycle with some plants in the bottom for a while. gonna move those out. also will transfer over some substrate or the filter from an established tank to help out and use that solution i mentoined earlier. i wouldnt put the hatchets in for a fish in cycle. i dont think they are hardy enough. was gonna do that with my zebra danio but he is old and really sick right now  and no CO2 either. this will save a lot of money i can use to modify other things. 

also for a backup heater, i am planning on getting a 50W heater to use in conjucntion with my 150W heater coming in in a week or so. just telling you guys my plans and if there is anything wrong, please let me know


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## pandamonium

also i just looked back at my tank after installing the canister filte.r its been running for about 4 hours now and the water is still cloudy. it was cloudy before when i dumped water into it to fill it. my substrate is sand. will the carbon filter pad that came with the filter be good enough to remove it? and is this harmless or harmful. its like a milky color


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> also i just looked back at my tank after installing the canister filte.r its been running for about 4 hours now and the water is still cloudy. it was cloudy before when i dumped water into it to fill it. my substrate is sand. will the carbon filter pad that came with the filter be good enough to remove it? and is this harmless or harmful. its like a milky color


If the cloudiness is due to the sand, it will settle; some will get pulled into the filter--this will be dirt, not sand unless the filter intake is too close to the substrate (it should be no closer than 4-5 inches) and you stir it up. What i sometimes do is after arranging the wood, rock and plants, (with no fish in the tank yet), I drain most of the water out and carefully refill it so as not to disturb the sand. This usually deals with cloudiness from the substrate.

Cloudiness in new tanks due to bacteria is very common, and a different issue. [We are not talking nitrifying bacteria here but other types.] When you add dechlorinated water, it contains organics and the various bacteria naturally reproduce very rapidly to deal with it. Once the tank is established biologically, these bacteria will remain in the substrate and on surfaces rather than invading the water column. It can take several hours, to several days, to several weeks for a bacterial bloom to work out; many factors unique to each tank are involved. You can read more on this here:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-articles/bacteria-freshwater-aquarium-74891/


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> If the cloudiness is due to the sand, it will settle; some will get pulled into the filter--this will be dirt, not sand unless the filter intake is too close to the substrate (it should be no closer than 4-5 inches) and you stir it up. What i sometimes do is after arranging the wood, rock and plants, (with no fish in the tank yet), I drain most of the water out and carefully refill it so as not to disturb the sand. This usually deals with cloudiness from the substrate.
> 
> Cloudiness in new tanks due to bacteria is very common, and a different issue. [We are not talking nitrifying bacteria here but other types.] When you add dechlorinated water, it contains organics and the various bacteria naturally reproduce very rapidly to deal with it. Once the tank is established biologically, these bacteria will remain in the substrate and on surfaces rather than invading the water column. It can take several hours, to several days, to several weeks for a bacterial bloom to work out; many factors unique to each tank are involved. You can read more on this here:
> http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-articles/bacteria-freshwater-aquarium-74891/


yeah i read that sticky right after posting that post. i think its due to bacteria. i did some looking around online and read up on it as well. my main concern was that i already put my platy in there to start cycling and a lot of sources said dont put fish in while there is a bloom. however those same sources said that if you use a safe start solution to kickstart the cycling, then its ok. i dumped a whole ton of it in yesterday before putting my platy in and today he is ok  i put my 3 woodcats in as well right before nightfall. they swam straight to my driftwood placed by my filter. then i left to go check some stuff and my room was dark. when i came back and flipped the lights on, they were EVERYWHERE. today however, they are all hidden. they arent eating yet which concerns me a bit. the platy is eating all the food i put into the tank. is this normal? 2 are in the current and one is squeezed into driftwood on the other side of the tank.
the cloudiness is noticeably less today and my water temperature is up to about 80. my goal is 80-82. im using a backup heater since my main one hasnt come in yet so its undersized for this tank. im expecting the full sized heater to arrive this week. 
about fertilizers, should i use those? i have seen that its only a small dose once a week and i dont know if i should do that.


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> yeah i read that sticky right after posting that post. i think its due to bacteria. i did some looking around online and read up on it as well. my main concern was that i already put my platy in there to start cycling and a lot of sources said dont put fish in while there is a bloom. however those same sources said that if you use a safe start solution to kickstart the cycling, then its ok. i dumped a whole ton of it in yesterday before putting my platy in and today he is ok  i put my 3 woodcats in as well right before nightfall. they swam straight to my driftwood placed by my filter. then i left to go check some stuff and my room was dark. when i came back and flipped the lights on, they were EVERYWHERE. today however, they are all hidden. they arent eating yet which concerns me a bit. the platy is eating all the food i put into the tank. is this normal? 2 are in the current and one is squeezed into driftwood on the other side of the tank.
> the cloudiness is noticeably less today and my water temperature is up to about 80. my goal is 80-82. im using a backup heater since my main one hasnt come in yet so its undersized for this tank. im expecting the full sized heater to arrive this week.
> about fertilizers, should i use those? i have seen that its only a small dose once a week and i dont know if i should do that.


Remember that the woodcats will only normally come out in total darkness to feed, so putting food in well after the tank lights *and* room lights are out is necessary as the other fish in room light will eat it.

Why is the temp so high? The platy will be better in the low and mid-range given for it in the profile (well below 80F) and the woodcats too.

Fertilization depends upon the sources of nutrients in your tank. The GH of the water (calcium, magnesium, some other minerals), fish foods and organics, all add nutrients. The level of nutrients must be sufficent to balance the light intensity, to benefit plant growth and avoid algae. A basic fertilizer like Seachem's _Flourish Comprehensive Supplement _or Brightwell Aquatics' _FlorinMulti_ is sufficient once a week, unless something else major is missing.


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> Remember that the woodcats will only normally come out in total darkness to feed, so putting food in well after the tank lights *and* room lights are out is necessary as the other fish in room light will eat it.
> 
> Why is the temp so high? The platy will be better in the low and mid-range given for it in the profile (well below 80F) and the woodcats too.
> 
> Fertilization depends upon the sources of nutrients in your tank. The GH of the water (calcium, magnesium, some other minerals), fish foods and organics, all add nutrients. The level of nutrients must be sufficent to balance the light intensity, to benefit plant growth and avoid algae. A basic fertilizer like Seachem's _Flourish Comprehensive Supplement _or Brightwell Aquatics' _FlorinMulti_ is sufficient once a week, unless something else major is missing.


oh ok i see. they were out and about yesterday which was good. i just didnt want them to all get sick and die after a day. 
the temp is high because i am planning on moving my rams into the tank after i get more plants. im expecting a shipment of pennywort tomorrow or the day after. once those plants are in then im going to switch the rams with the platy. is there a possibility that i can lower the temp of the tank to about 78? or will that be bad for the rams?
and i have seen the flourish comprehensive around so i will purchase that next time i visit the store. 
also, for lighting, im planning on a DIY CFL setup. i dont know how to determine the wattage though. if i buy a 13W bulb that has the wattage equivalent of a 60W incandescent, do i judge by the 13 or the 60? i know the real measurement should be PAR, PUR and all that but i dont have the means to do it


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## Byron

> the temp is high because i am planning on moving my rams into the tank after i get more plants. im expecting a shipment of pennywort tomorrow or the day after. once those plants are in then im going to switch the rams with the platy. is there a possibility that i can lower the temp of the tank to about 78? or will that be bad for the rams?


No, assuming you mean the common blue ram or one of the variants it needs warmth.



> and i have seen the flourish comprehensive around so i will purchase that next time i visit the store.
> also, for lighting, im planning on a DIY CFL setup. i dont know how to determine the wattage though. if i buy a 13W bulb that has the wattage equivalent of a 60W incandescent, do i judge by the 13 or the 60? i know the real measurement should be PAR, PUR and all that but i dont have the means to do it


If you have three sockets as mentioned previously, over a 3-foot 40g tank I wold use 13w CFL bulbs at least to start. The next wattage up might be necessary.

Watts is simply the measurement of the amount of energy a bulb uses. Watts is not directly related to light intensity. However, when dealing with the same type of bulb, as here with Daylight CFL bulbs, the higher the watts the brighter. As for PAR and PUR, I have never bothered with these measurements, and frankly I couldn't exsplain them if asked.:lol:


----------



## pandamonium

Byron said:


> No, assuming you mean the common blue ram or one of the variants it needs warmth.
> 
> 
> 
> If you have three sockets as mentioned previously, over a 3-foot 40g tank I wold use 13w CFL bulbs at least to start. The next wattage up might be necessary.
> 
> Watts is simply the measurement of the amount of energy a bulb uses. Watts is not directly related to light intensity. However, when dealing with the same type of bulb, as here with Daylight CFL bulbs, the higher the watts the brighter. As for PAR and PUR, I have never bothered with these measurements, and frankly I couldn't exsplain them if asked.:lol:


ok i turned the temperature down to 80 just now and it cooled fairly quickly. on the profile for the woodcat, the temperature range is 77-82. i think 80 might be ok and perhaps ok for the rams as well. if not then i will up the temperature back to 82. 
right now i am planning for 4 13W CFL bulbs. i bought them today and dual sockets too. in total then i will have 52 watts. the PAR and PUR maybe i can calculate after looking it all up haha. but will 4of them work? these are 6500K bulbs, 13W a piece. im not too knowledgeable on lighting at all really. 
on plants, im expecting my pennywort to arrive soon. i have read that it is both a floating and rooted plant. how should i start it in my tank? should i plant the stems or allow them to float?
and just randomly, the guts of my T8 24 inch bulb, i am using it as a cabinet light beneath my tank  so it doesnt go to waste.


----------



## Byron

pandamonium said:


> ok i turned the temperature down to 80 just now and it cooled fairly quickly. on the profile for the woodcat, the temperature range is 77-82. i think 80 might be ok and perhaps ok for the rams as well. if not then i will up the temperature back to 82.
> right now i am planning for 4 13W CFL bulbs. i bought them today and dual sockets too. in total then i will have 52 watts. the PAR and PUR maybe i can calculate after looking it all up haha. but will 4of them work? these are 6500K bulbs, 13W a piece. im not too knowledgeable on lighting at all really.
> on plants, im expecting my pennywort to arrive soon. i have read that it is both a floating and rooted plant. how should i start it in my tank? should i plant the stems or allow them to float?
> and just randomly, the guts of my T8 24 inch bulb, i am using it as a cabinet light beneath my tank  so it doesnt go to waste.


Four CFL bulbs is fine. I would start with the 13w. Pennywort will grow rooted in the substrate or floating. If floating, the leaves will naturally all face the surface, and if rooted they will be more "normal" around the stem. To start it off, you can float some and plant some. You can plant stems that have been floating, and vice-versa.


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## 50galkid

twig catfish would look great in this aquarium


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> Four CFL bulbs is fine. I would start with the 13w. Pennywort will grow rooted in the substrate or floating. If floating, the leaves will naturally all face the surface, and if rooted they will be more "normal" around the stem. To start it off, you can float some and plant some. You can plant stems that have been floating, and vice-versa.


i just finished my hood today. is there a place on this forum i can keep a tank journal? just to share the stuff i am making/doing? i used 4 13W bulbs and havent put in reflectors yet but maybe later once i figure out how good the light is. im having a problem with it reaching the front and back of my tank since the hood is only 2-4 inches wide and my tank is 18 inches front to back. is the only way to increase light "availability" to raise my hood?
and the pennywort should come tomorrow, i will probably grow it rooted since i want the normal looking array of leaves. some i will grow floating just to have a little variety. the frogbit so far is growing well. i already see much more roots than the day they came 



50galkid said:


> twig catfish would look great in this aquarium


i was looking at that but i dont know if it would be good with rams. i want to eventually breed rams so having a lot of catfish might be bad at night. but if i can find it in my area i will look into it.


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## Byron

> im having a problem with it reaching the front and back of my tank since the hood is only 2-4 inches wide and my tank is 18 inches front to back. is the only way to increase light "availability" to raise my hood?


You don't want to raise the light any farther above the surface than necessary, i.e., keep it as close as you can (with glass between water and light fixture) because the higher the light is above the surface the more light is diffused out and not down into the water. Most light fixtures only cover a part of the tank width. I find they work best about in the middle or slightly toward the back. It is better to have some less direct light at the front, for better viewing.


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> You don't want to raise the light any farther above the surface than necessary, i.e., keep it as close as you can (with glass between water and light fixture) because the higher the light is above the surface the more light is diffused out and not down into the water. Most light fixtures only cover a part of the tank width. I find they work best about in the middle or slightly toward the back. It is better to have some less direct light at the front, for better viewing.


ok i lifted the light so far about 6.5 centimeters about 2.5 inches temporarily. it gets light to the front and back of the aquarium and the light still hits the bottom of the tank fairly well. i will probably adjust it but i only did this to ensure that the light hit the entirety of the surface so that the frogbit could grow. on another note, my current keeps pushing the frogbit into a dead spot. i have it right now facing downward at a 45 degree angle pushing water towards the front center of the tank. i did this so that the water would hit the driftwood for the catfish. only 1 of them sits there now. the other 2 are on the other side. is there a way to position the water that ensures that it is filtered well, good for the catfish, and good for frogbit circulation? 
also really random but my woodcat is chilling upsidedown in a hole. can they get stuck in holes they go into?
and just bought java moss today. im gonna try to aquascape my wood to make it look more realistic. i am planning on using fishing line to tie it until it attaches. is there any other thing i could use?


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> ok i lifted the light so far about 6.5 centimeters about 2.5 inches temporarily. it gets light to the front and back of the aquarium and the light still hits the bottom of the tank fairly well. i will probably adjust it but i only did this to ensure that the light hit the entirety of the surface so that the frogbit could grow. on another note, my current keeps pushing the frogbit into a dead spot. i have it right now facing downward at a 45 degree angle pushing water towards the front center of the tank. i did this so that the water would hit the driftwood for the catfish. only 1 of them sits there now. the other 2 are on the other side. is there a way to position the water that ensures that it is filtered well, good for the catfish, and good for frogbit circulation?
> also really random but my woodcat is chilling upsidedown in a hole. can they get stuck in holes they go into?
> and just bought java moss today. im gonna try to aquascape my wood to make it look more realistic. i am planning on using fishing line to tie it until it attaches. is there any other thing i could use?


I would have the filter return under the surface if possible to minimize surface movement. Fish can dislodge themselves from crevices so I would let it be. On the Java Moss, I usually try to get a bit wedged in a crevice/splinter in the wood, and it will take root and spread.


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> I would have the filter return under the surface if possible to minimize surface movement. Fish can dislodge themselves from crevices so I would let it be. On the Java Moss, I usually try to get a bit wedged in a crevice/splinter in the wood, and it will take root and spread.


i just tied in the java moss yesterday. i was trying to create a kind of tree-like structure with one of my driftwood pieces so i tied that in. the other pieces i shoved into crevices in the wood. it looks pretty good so far. 
all my woodcats are not hiding in the furthest driftwood from my filter. and they weren't stuck like i thought (foolish of me). the minute the lights were out i threw in some bloodworms and all of them were out and about. 
my next step is to put in the rams. my question is my temperature is about 80 degrees (a hair higher than 80). will the rams be able to tolerate this temperature. they were raised in 84, i have them now in 82 for about 3 weeks and they are doing ok. also, i dont have rooted plants in the aquarium yet. those should arrive tomorwo. should i wait until tomorrow to put the rams in? or is it ok to do it today? i have a lot of floating cover so far. 
also just a progress update, the lighting fixture is done and it looks nice. i think i will elevate it a bit just to spread the light over the surface. im working on an inline heater right now. i sealed all the PVC parts yesterday and im letting it cure for a day or so before i make my test run. i need t ofigure out how to calibrate the thermometer though. first time i have ever seen that function on a thermometer ><
also for freshwater test kits, is there one (or several) that you recommend? i have only a pH kit so far. is there a brand that you like?


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> i just tied in the java moss yesterday. i was trying to create a kind of tree-like structure with one of my driftwood pieces so i tied that in. the other pieces i shoved into crevices in the wood. it looks pretty good so far.
> all my woodcats are not hiding in the furthest driftwood from my filter. and they weren't stuck like i thought (foolish of me). the minute the lights were out i threw in some bloodworms and all of them were out and about.
> my next step is to put in the rams. my question is my temperature is about 80 degrees (a hair higher than 80). will the rams be able to tolerate this temperature. they were raised in 84, i have them now in 82 for about 3 weeks and they are doing ok. also, i dont have rooted plants in the aquarium yet. those should arrive tomorwo. should i wait until tomorrow to put the rams in? or is it ok to do it today? i have a lot of floating cover so far.
> also just a progress update, the lighting fixture is done and it looks nice. i think i will elevate it a bit just to spread the light over the surface. im working on an inline heater right now. i sealed all the PVC parts yesterday and im letting it cure for a day or so before i make my test run. i need t ofigure out how to calibrate the thermometer though. first time i have ever seen that function on a thermometer ><
> also for freshwater test kits, is there one (or several) that you recommend? i have only a pH kit so far. is there a brand that you like?


I would plant the plants first, then when the aquascape is as you want it, move in the rams. The move will be stressful on its own without then adding to their stress by crashing about in the tank.;-) And when you do move them, do a partial water change in their present tank--if they are the sole fish or if all the fish are being moved over--using water from the new tank to help acclimate them. If only they are going, I would siphon half a pail of water from their present tank, net them into the pail, then slowly fill the pail with water from the new tank. Then net them out and into the new tank. Do not mix the waters in the new tank. I would raise the temp to 81F (before doing the afore-mentioned).


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> I would plant the plants first, then when the aquascape is as you want it, move in the rams. The move will be stressful on its own without then adding to their stress by crashing about in the tank.;-) And when you do move them, do a partial water change in their present tank--if they are the sole fish or if all the fish are being moved over--using water from the new tank to help acclimate them. If only they are going, I would siphon half a pail of water from their present tank, net them into the pail, then slowly fill the pail with water from the new tank. Then net them out and into the new tank. Do not mix the waters in the new tank. I would raise the temp to 81F (before doing the afore-mentioned).


ok i will do that. i tried raising it to 81 but i think i keep overturning the knob or overcompensating for my turn :evil: ill try to get it right this next time. 
since they are sharing a tank, ill do the latter of what you suggested.


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## pandamonium

just put the plants in my tank, the temperature is about 81 to 82 ish. the entire back half of my tank is planted. however im not sure i did it right. i broke the pennywort between the little root-like structures and then put them deep into the sand in the back. the plants are really crooked just by the stem structure. over time, since they are planted, will they grow straight up to the surface? in the back right now it looks like a tangled mess. i'd like to make it neater looking but the plant stems are crooked. haha ill learn to plant better soon hopefully.

also the rams are now in the new tank. they look pretty good. their blue is starting to show, much more than when they were in the 10 gallon QT tank. the two largest ones, about 3/4 of an inch now have a pink belly. im assuming that those two are females. they do not follow each other often either, just when feeding comes around. 

also the bacteria bloom i had earlier, it is still in my tank. the fish do not seem to be affected at all. my woodcats come out at night to ear (a lot i might add). the rams browse through the plants and are eating well. and the platy, which is my temporary cycle buddy (ill move her back to her 10 gallon once this tank is cycled) hasn't had any problems. i use nutrafin cycle, which according to other users on another forum who have used it actually works. they did ammonia tests and such. i will soon be on my way to get a test kit to report water parameters. im guessing according to your article, byron, that the bacteria bloom will subside soon enough?


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## Byron

> just put the plants in my tank, the temperature is about 81 to 82 ish. the entire back half of my tank is planted. however im not sure i did it right. i broke the pennywort between the little root-like structures and then put them deep into the sand in the back. the plants are really crooked just by the stem structure. over time, since they are planted, will they grow straight up to the surface? in the back right now it looks like a tangled mess. i'd like to make it neater looking but the plant stems are crooked. haha ill learn to plant better soon hopefully.


Yes they will straighten from the point where they are now. Plants grow toward the light, so the stems may twist accordingly. You can't straighten out the existing stems, but eventually when the new growth is substantial you can pull them up, trim off the bottoms, and replant the tops. But having them non-straight is more natural and interesting.



> also the bacteria bloom i had earlier, it is still in my tank. the fish do not seem to be affected at all. my woodcats come out at night to ear (a lot i might add). the rams browse through the plants and are eating well. and the platy, which is my temporary cycle buddy (ill move her back to her 10 gallon once this tank is cycled) hasn't had any problems. i use nutrafin cycle, which according to other users on another forum who have used it actually works. they did ammonia tests and such. i will soon be on my way to get a test kit to report water parameters. im guessing according to your article, byron, that the bacteria bloom will subside soon enough?


Cycle will quicken the establishment of the nitrifying bacteria, but with live plants this is a moot point. It will do no harm.

Bacterial blooms are generally harmless, and as the various bacteria establish in the substrate and elsewhere the water will clear. Depends upon this and that. I've had new setups clear in a few days, and some took weeks.


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> Yes they will straighten from the point where they are now. Plants grow toward the light, so the stems may twist accordingly. You can't straighten out the existing stems, but eventually when the new growth is substantial you can pull them up, trim off the bottoms, and replant the tops. But having them non-straight is more natural and interesting.
> 
> Cycle will quicken the establishment of the nitrifying bacteria, but with live plants this is a moot point. It will do no harm.
> 
> Bacterial blooms are generally harmless, and as the various bacteria establish in the substrate and elsewhere the water will clear. Depends upon this and that. I've had new setups clear in a few days, and some took weeks.


ok that sounds good. i like the twisted growth in the back but its a bit tangled so some straight ones would be nice, especially on the sides. and about the bloom im glad that it will eventually sort itself out. if anything i worry more about aesthetics, with respect to the bacteria bloom. if it will not affect my fish then i'm good. the longer this tank takes the more time i will have to play around with it


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## pandamonium

so today i was looking at my tank and noticed that some of the java moss that i tied down has this very thin blue/green kinda filaments coming off of it. i tied it to the driftwood with fishing line and it is in the path of my filter outflow so it has a lot of water running by it. is this normal? and will the java moss being in the water current affect its ability to take root? the other java moss strands have very little of this filament like extension on them. 
also some of my pennywort leaves are dying. just like 1 or 2 out of the entire planted group. is this just melting? i dont quite know what melting is yet but i have heard that it is like leaves just dying. i shouldnt be concerned yet should i?


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> so today i was looking at my tank and noticed that some of the java moss that i tied down has this very thin blue/green kinda filaments coming off of it. i tied it to the driftwood with fishing line and it is in the path of my filter outflow so it has a lot of water running by it. is this normal? and will the java moss being in the water current affect its ability to take root? the other java moss strands have very little of this filament like extension on them.
> also some of my pennywort leaves are dying. just like 1 or 2 out of the entire planted group. is this just melting? i dont quite know what melting is yet but i have heard that it is like leaves just dying. i shouldnt be concerned yet should i?


Most plants go through a set-back when moved to a new environment. It will rebound. And the Java Moss should be fine.


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## pandamonium

ok thats good. 
another different topic but i noticed that my tank often has this oily film on the surface. im not sure what it is but im assuming it is some kind of biofilm? it looks like oil on water. on my 10 gallon outside, this film is a lot less apparent, i think its because outside i have surface agitation (HOB filter and aeration). 
i read your sticky on plants and you said that aeration was not good in the planted tank because it hastened the release of CO2 into the air. i thought that the solubility of CO2 was greater in liquid than O2 is. like in the human body, only 2% of O2 is carried in plasma while 98% must be bound to hemoglobin. for CO2 the percentage is about 20% carried in plasma i think. 
i was thinking about adding aeration to my tank and i looked up a couple more posts on other forums. the results were very mixed. some people swore that aeration was amazing; others swore it's not needed; and some others said that running aeration at night, when plants are in the calvin cycle, helps to dissipate excessive CO2, then turning off the aeration in the day when plants photosynthesize. other people said they use some kind of supplement that adds a liquid form of CO2? im assumign its some kind of carbon?
so i was wondering about this entire idea of aeration in a tank. could you elaborate on it whether its good bad neutral? 
also, how do i deal with the biofilm like stuff on my tank?
and final question. im thinking about adding purple cabomba to my tank for a bit of color. on the plant profile it says it is more tolerant of basic, high temperature water than the green cabomba is. im still fairly new to planted tanks and i was wondering if that was a good choice to add some color to an amazonian themed tank.


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> ok thats good.
> another different topic but i noticed that my tank often has this oily film on the surface. im not sure what it is but im assuming it is some kind of biofilm? it looks like oil on water. on my 10 gallon outside, this film is a lot less apparent, i think its because outside i have surface agitation (HOB filter and aeration).
> i read your sticky on plants and you said that aeration was not good in the planted tank because it hastened the release of CO2 into the air. i thought that the solubility of CO2 was greater in liquid than O2 is. like in the human body, only 2% of O2 is carried in plasma while 98% must be bound to hemoglobin. for CO2 the percentage is about 20% carried in plasma i think.
> i was thinking about adding aeration to my tank and i looked up a couple more posts on other forums. the results were very mixed. some people swore that aeration was amazing; others swore it's not needed; and some others said that running aeration at night, when plants are in the calvin cycle, helps to dissipate excessive CO2, then turning off the aeration in the day when plants photosynthesize. other people said they use some kind of supplement that adds a liquid form of CO2? im assumign its some kind of carbon?
> so i was wondering about this entire idea of aeration in a tank. could you elaborate on it whether its good bad neutral?
> also, how do i deal with the biofilm like stuff on my tank?
> and final question. im thinking about adding purple cabomba to my tank for a bit of color. on the plant profile it says it is more tolerant of basic, high temperature water than the green cabomba is. im still fairly new to planted tanks and i was wondering if that was a good choice to add some color to an amazonian themed tank.


Try the Cabomba, a bunch won't be too expensive, but it may or may not survive, it needs light.

The protein film on the surface is normal, it will vary according to each aquarium. I have a couple tanks that get it and others that never do. Siphon it off during water changes (invert the siphon) and with some surface disturbance it will be less, or with a surface skimmer attached to the filter if that is possible. I used to use the latter, then the Boraras rasbora kept getting sucked into the filter, and surface plants too, so rather than fuss with screening I just removed them. If the balance is good, it should not be a problem.

Surface disturbance is debatable. Majority opinion is that it drives off CO2 and this is not good. I have some caused by the filters on each tank, but you don't want to go overboard. As for oxygen shortage, this is simply not going to occur unless something is seriously wrong. Aeration at night driving out CO2 means there will be less available in daylight for the plants. And with CO2 the nutrient that is likely to be in least supply anyway, you want to retain it.

As for liquid carbon supplements, I don't recommend them. They are chemical, they will melt (kill) some plants at normal dosage, at higher dose they will kill other plants, some algae and fish. There should be sufficient natural CO2 from the breakdown of organics.

Byron.


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> Try the Cabomba, a bunch won't be too expensive, but it may or may not survive, it needs light.
> 
> The protein film on the surface is normal, it will vary according to each aquarium. I have a couple tanks that get it and others that never do. Siphon it off during water changes (invert the siphon) and with some surface disturbance it will be less, or with a surface skimmer attached to the filter if that is possible. I used to use the latter, then the Boraras rasbora kept getting sucked into the filter, and surface plants too, so rather than fuss with screening I just removed them. If the balance is good, it should not be a problem.
> 
> Surface disturbance is debatable. Majority opinion is that it drives off CO2 and this is not good. I have some caused by the filters on each tank, but you don't want to go overboard. As for oxygen shortage, this is simply not going to occur unless something is seriously wrong. Aeration at night driving out CO2 means there will be less available in daylight for the plants. And with CO2 the nutrient that is likely to be in least supply anyway, you want to retain it.
> 
> As for liquid carbon supplements, I don't recommend them. They are chemical, they will melt (kill) some plants at normal dosage, at higher dose they will kill other plants, some algae and fish. There should be sufficient natural CO2 from the breakdown of organics.
> 
> Byron.


ok i will try the cabomba when the rest of my tank is set up. 
the CO2 with air pump deal i looked into a lot because its actually really interesting to me. i looked on a different forum and the general consensus was that an airstone would drive CO2 out but then they were trying to do an experiment to see if CO2 levels after would remain relatively constant. the concentration varies but some sources say 2-3ppm and others 0.7ppm. im not worried about lack of oxygen but more about enough CO2 for healthy plant growth. i want to see the results of that experiment but i think for the time being ill just keep an eye out for air pump deals. 
and going on the biofilm topic, the inverted filter seems like a good idea to get rid of it. i also read that surface movement (ripples and such) do as well. how could i get ripples in my tank since i have the outflow from the canister pointing down?


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> ok i will try the cabomba when the rest of my tank is set up.
> the CO2 with air pump deal i looked into a lot because its actually really interesting to me. i looked on a different forum and the general consensus was that an airstone would drive CO2 out but then they were trying to do an experiment to see if CO2 levels after would remain relatively constant. the concentration varies but some sources say 2-3ppm and others 0.7ppm. im not worried about lack of oxygen but more about enough CO2 for healthy plant growth. i want to see the results of that experiment but i think for the time being ill just keep an eye out for air pump deals.
> and going on the biofilm topic, the inverted filter seems like a good idea to get rid of it. i also read that surface movement (ripples and such) do as well. how could i get ripples in my tank since i have the outflow from the canister pointing down?


If you are considering adding CO2 diffusion, you are entering a whole new ball park. I'll stay out of that since I do not use it.

I was in that other discussion, in my view it has proven nothing, so the evidence not yet refuted still says that increased water surface disturbance drives off CO2. There is a lot of natural CO2 produced by the bacterial breakdown of organics in the substrate, much more than many realize. There are ways of testing this to some extent, not by numbers (which are somewhat meaningless) but by observation.

Plants can only photosynthesize in the presence of sufficient light intensity and provided all 17 nutrients are available. As soon as any factor is missing, photosynthesis either slows or stops altogether. We call this the limiting factor to plant growth. As soon as this happens, and if light continues to be present, algae will take advantage and increases. So keeping the light duration (assuming the intensity is sufficient for the specific plants) at the point where algae will not increase means that up to that point, all nutrients--including CO2--must be available. When we are not adding CO2, in a "natural" method tank, this means the CO2 is coming from the system.

On the surface issue, I have my spraybars directed into the end glass at the angle that provides a bit of movement across the surface as well as (mainly) down the wall. Floating plants obviously affect this, as they will impede surface movement. The protein scum is not bad, unless it is excessive--and that would mean the organics nutrient balance is out.


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> If you are considering adding CO2 diffusion, you are entering a whole new ball park. I'll stay out of that since I do not use it.
> 
> I was in that other discussion, in my view it has proven nothing, so the evidence not yet refuted still says that increased water surface disturbance drives off CO2. There is a lot of natural CO2 produced by the bacterial breakdown of organics in the substrate, much more than many realize. There are ways of testing this to some extent, not by numbers (which are somewhat meaningless) but by observation.
> 
> Plants can only photosynthesize in the presence of sufficient light intensity and provided all 17 nutrients are available. As soon as any factor is missing, photosynthesis either slows or stops altogether. We call this the limiting factor to plant growth. As soon as this happens, and if light continues to be present, algae will take advantage and increases. So keeping the light duration (assuming the intensity is sufficient for the specific plants) at the point where algae will not increase means that up to that point, all nutrients--including CO2--must be available. When we are not adding CO2, in a "natural" method tank, this means the CO2 is coming from the system.
> 
> On the surface issue, I have my spraybars directed into the end glass at the angle that provides a bit of movement across the surface as well as (mainly) down the wall. Floating plants obviously affect this, as they will impede surface movement. The protein scum is not bad, unless it is excessive--and that would mean the organics nutrient balance is out.


oh no i wasnt going to add a CO2 system. after reading your stickies on nonplanted tanks, i like the idea and i wanted my tank to be something like that. so no CO2 for me. only liquid supplements as you suggested me to use flourish comprehensive or something similar. i havent dosed it yet as i have my initial carbon filter still in to remove the last bits of gunk from the tank. i should be removing it tomorrow or monday. after that i think i will start dosing with the supplement. 
yes i understand the CO2 deal now, i have been looking back at that thread and reading through it. i had thought that the discussion was on whether O2 and CO2 but it was more on CO2 in water and out of it. so i understand that CO2 from breathing fish or decaying matter will increase CO2 concentrations. this wont be driven off unless there is surface agitation. 
will these CO2 levels ever be high enough to cause fish to be stressed?


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> oh no i wasnt going to add a CO2 system. after reading your stickies on nonplanted tanks, i like the idea and i wanted my tank to be something like that. so no CO2 for me. only liquid supplements as you suggested me to use flourish comprehensive or something similar. i havent dosed it yet as i have my initial carbon filter still in to remove the last bits of gunk from the tank. i should be removing it tomorrow or monday. after that i think i will start dosing with the supplement.
> yes i understand the CO2 deal now, i have been looking back at that thread and reading through it. i had thought that the discussion was on whether O2 and CO2 but it was more on CO2 in water and out of it. so i understand that CO2 from breathing fish or decaying matter will increase CO2 concentrations. this wont be driven off unless there is surface agitation.
> will these CO2 levels ever be high enough to cause fish to be stressed?


No--at least not with a natural method as we are taling here; adding diffused CO2 is another matter, just to be clear. With live plants and sufficient light (intensity) the plants in a natural system will easily assimilate the CO2. The issue would be more a lack of oxygen than an excess of CO2, but this can only occur if the tank is way overcrowded or some other biological mishap occurs.


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## pandamonium

ok i think i may skip on the air pump and just find a way to circulate water. on a completely different note, my GBRs (without my knowledge) paired up and laid eggs! i had thought they were both female but apparently i was wrong. the eggs are sitting on a pennywort leaf in the very back corner of the aquarium. as i have never raised them before, i dont know what to expect. i have raised livebearers before so if its similar i can adapt.
some questions i have i thought i would as here and maybe post on the fish section of the forum later if i needed more clarification.
1) how long will it take for them to hatch? (i have seen sources anywhere from 36 hours to 3-4 days)
2) what should they be fed? and how will should i do that? they laid the eggs on a plant leaf in the very back corner of the aquarium. will they graze on stuff that grows in java moss? i have a good amount of java moss in the tank. i read that newly hatched BBS should do as well as tiny other things.
3) should i move them to another tank like a breeding tank if they give birth? and when should i do that? 
4) the only other fish in this tank are some other rams (juvenile but there are plenty of hiding places) and some honeycomb catfish. i dont think those should be a problem should they?
5) should i worry about the parents not getting enough food? or should they feed normally?
ill put images too


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## Byron

> 1) how long will it take for them to hatch? (i have seen sources anywhere from 36 hours to 3-4 days)


I believe it is about 3 days. I had this species spawn back in the 1990's but I can't remember exactly. My Bolivians more recently were about 3 days.



> 2) what should they be fed? and how will should i do that? they laid the eggs on a plant leaf in the very back corner of the aquarium. will they graze on stuff that grows in Java Moss? i have a good amount of Java Moss in the tank. i read that newly hatched BBS should do as well as tiny other things.


Once they hatch, the fry are able to handle newly hatched brine shrimp. They will not likely find sufficient food in the tank without something being added. You can use infusoria, but the shrimp is better for cichlids. You can buy the eggs in fish stores, and hatch them in warm salt water (marine salt). An airstone to keep the water moving and tumble the eggs and shrimp is necessary. It's been years since I did this for Apistos, and I can't remember the hatching period, but the aim is to have some eggs hatching daily to provide a regular supply of brine shrimp.

You can also wean them onto prepared foods by crushing some flake food and mixing it with tank water, then squirting it into the shoal of fry.

Some of the other cichlid experts may have other suggestions. Interesting they used a leaf. Both species in Mikrogeophagus are substrate spawners, usually using a flat stone, sometimes wood, or they will dig a pit in the substrate.



> 3) should i move them to another tank like a breeding tank if they give birth? and when should i do that?


It might be best to let nature takes it course this time, and if the eggs/fry get eaten, prepare for the next spawning which will be in a couple weeks. For this spawning, you could remove the eggs to a small tank; the eggs must be fanned to prevent fungus (the parents fins do this) so a small airstone beneath the clutch of eggs can work. Some recomend methylene blue in the water to further avoid fungus, this used to be done for angelfish I know. Moving the parents with the eggs/fry now will almost certainly cause the parents to eat them, or just abandon them, from the stress. They may do this where they are, if they feel threatened by anything.

For future spawnings, now that you have a pair you can move them to their own tank, which is the preferred method. Then let nature do its thing. It is fascinating to observe the parents guarding the eggs and shepherding the fry around the tank.



> 4) the only other fish in this tank are some other rams (juvenile but there are plenty of hiding places) and some honeycomb catfish. i dont think those should be a problem should they?


The parents will likely defend the eggs/fry against the other rams, even though this is a first spawning for them. Catfish are different, as they are nocturnal--especially Centromochlus as we have previously discussed. It might be different, but I would not expect the fry to survive.



> 5) should i worry about the parents not getting enough food? or should they feed normally?


They will be fine. Feed the tank normally.


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## pandamonium

i just did a water change today but even before i did that, the parents seemed to be a lot more relaxed. a lot of the rams are now swimming around the eggs and there is no defending or no protecting or anything. im thinking that they may have abandoned the eggs but im not sure. ill keep an eye on them over the next few days.
also i read tat captive bred rams may not have as much success as wild caught rams. is this true?


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> i just did a water change today but even before i did that, the parents seemed to be a lot more relaxed. a lot of the rams are now swimming around the eggs and there is no defending or no protecting or anything. im thinking that they may have abandoned the eggs but im not sure. ill keep an eye on them over the next few days.
> also i read tat captive bred rams may not have as much success as wild caught rams. is this true?


On the last question, I don't have statistics but most of the rams are captive bred and any I've had certainly spawned fine from day one. Angelfish I know are different, the first several batches will often be eaten by captive-bred fish, whereas wild fish do not do this unless provoked.

The other rams may be "helping" in the care, or at least not willing to risk the ire of the parents by attacking the eggs. If the eggs were truly abandoned, they would get eaten fast by something.


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> On the last question, I don't have statistics but most of the rams are captive bred and any I've had certainly spawned fine from day one. Angelfish I know are different, the first several batches will often be eaten by captive-bred fish, whereas wild fish do not do this unless provoked.
> 
> The other rams may be "helping" in the care, or at least not willing to risk the ire of the parents by attacking the eggs. If the eggs were truly abandoned, they would get eaten fast by something.


ok the eggs are still there. they havent been fanned or cleaned in a while. it looks as if they are covered in some kind of film? i dont recall doing anything to stress the parents since yesterday but i guess if the eggs are abandoned then its the first failed attempt hopefully the ones following will be more successful. if the will hatch then ill be more than happy 
on another note, at night i cant seem to see my catfish roaming everywhere. ive kept the room in pitch black conditions and thrown in some bloodworms. the past nights, the bloodworms have been eaten but then 2 nights ago, they werent and when i checked on the catfish with a flashlight, they were still in their holes. i guess its a burp in their behavior, nothing to be concerned about. i am more worried they arent getting enough food.


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> ok the eggs are still there. they havent been fanned or cleaned in a while. it looks as if they are covered in some kind of film? i dont recall doing anything to stress the parents since yesterday but i guess if the eggs are abandoned then its the first failed attempt hopefully the ones following will be more successful. if the will hatch then ill be more than happy
> on another note, at night i cant seem to see my catfish roaming everywhere. ive kept the room in pitch black conditions and thrown in some bloodworms. the past nights, the bloodworms have been eaten but then 2 nights ago, they werent and when i checked on the catfish with a flashlight, they were still in their holes. i guess its a burp in their behavior, nothing to be concerned about. i am more worried they arent getting enough food.


If food is in the tank, they will get it. And they can go days without food anyway. I trained my woodcats to eat bloodworms around 5 pm, so twice a week I feed them then, and I know they are fine as I see them. During the week, what they eat at night, I've no idea.

The white sounds like fungus. You were doubtful about having a pair, maybe the female laid eggs but there was no male to fertilize them. Angels and discus will do this, I'm not sure about rams.


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> If food is in the tank, they will get it. And they can go days without food anyway. I trained my woodcats to eat bloodworms around 5 pm, so twice a week I feed them then, and I know they are fine as I see them. During the week, what they eat at night, I've no idea.
> 
> The white sounds like fungus. You were doubtful about having a pair, maybe the female laid eggs but there was no male to fertilize them. Angels and discus will do this, I'm not sure about rams.


yeah maybe that was what happened. do rams just lay eggs like this even when there is no male to fertilize? it seems like it would be evolutionary inefficient to spend those resources on eggs that would not hatch. oh well at least i know they are mature. ill wait for the other rams to catch up in terms of size and maybe they will have pair offs. 
on another note, i called my LFS to order golden pencilfish for my tank, a school of them. they just called me back and they said that they dont have any golden ones but they have the coral red pencilfish (they called them red arc pencilfish) for 10 dollars a piece. at other aquariums, its 20 per fish so i know the price is good. i have seen the coral reds in planted tanks in a store about an hour from me. will the coral red (nannostomus mortenthaleri) pencilfish be able to do in a community tank? i read that the golden ones are good community fish. i dont know much about the coral red ones though. and for 10 dollars a piece it is tepmting but i dont want to kill any fish by jumping into a buy too quickly.


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> on another note, i called my LFS to order golden pencilfish for my tank, a school of them. they just called me back and they said that they dont have any golden ones but they have the coral red pencilfish (they called them red arc pencilfish) for 10 dollars a piece. at other aquariums, its 20 per fish so i know the price is good. i have seen the coral reds in planted tanks in a store about an hour from me. will the coral red (nannostomus mortenthaleri) pencilfish be able to do in a community tank? i read that the golden ones are good community fish. i dont know much about the coral red ones though. and for 10 dollars a piece it is tepmting but i dont want to kill any fish by jumping into a buy too quickly.


You lucked out on this. The Golden pencil, Nannostomus beckfordi, is not a particularly peaceful fish. It is quite boistrous, and can get nippy to slow fish or surface fish like hatchets. I have this species in my 90g with the more active fish and it is fine, but not in with sedate fish.

Nannostomus mortenthaleri is a beauty. I have a group in my 33g and they are spawning regularly, and without my intervention a few fry do survive. I have two mature fry at the moment. A real gem. Must have soft acidic water. Unless there is a breeder supplying the store, they will be wild caught, and this is the season for them. They are always expensive, and get at least six. Here's my 33g which is a good aquascape for them, they live among branches and bogwood in dimly-lit streams, the Rio Nanay is their habitat in Peru. Check the profile for more.


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> You lucked out on this. The Golden pencil, Nannostomus beckfordi, is not a particularly peaceful fish. It is quite boistrous, and can get nippy to slow fish or surface fish like hatchets. I have this species in my 90g with the more active fish and it is fine, but not in with sedate fish.
> 
> Nannostomus mortenthaleri is a beauty. I have a group in my 33g and they are spawning regularly, and without my intervention a few fry do survive. I have two mature fry at the moment. A real gem. Must have soft acidic water. Unless there is a breeder supplying the store, they will be wild caught, and this is the season for them. They are always expensive, and get at least six. Here's my 33g which is a good aquascape for them, they live among branches and bogwood in dimly-lit streams, the Rio Nanay is their habitat in Peru. Check the profile for more.


geez i guess i did. i read the profile and it said that the golden variety was one of the best for community aquariums. ok i guess there is a reason the LFS didnt stock them. i really like the look of N. mortenthaleri after i first saw it in a store down south a week ago. i will probably start with 6 and if they work then maybe up to 10 or so? either way it goes, 60 to 100 dollars is a very steep price to pay for fish that might not survive. but i guess since i already paid 30 for the woodcats, im already a victim of some rare fish-purchasing illness  is there a way i could acclimate them to harder neutral-ish water? or would it be better to try to slowly change the water in my tank to soft water?


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## pandamonium

also, i just noticed that when my platy was removed my rams a lot more timid. right now its just them and the cats in the tank. would a lack of dither fish cause this? there should be some hopefully tomorrow or next week but the rams hiding in the plants or behind driftwood, could it be caused by lack of dither fish?


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## Byron

I will revise that profile to make it a bit clearer. N. beckfordi is a good community fish, as it is not as "delicate" as pencilfish generally, but its feistiness does have to be born in mind.

If you decide on N. mortenthaleri I would get 7 and leave it at that. However, this fish must have soft acidic water, it simply will not last otherwise.

On the rams, yes, you are correct. Most dwarf cichlids can be very shy and having other fish around them (dither fish) usually settles them. But don't jump into things, you want to carefully select tankmates.

Just thought of something else, you have warm water for the rams, 82F or so, and the Golden Pencil is not too good this warm. All water parameters have to be checked for a species, GH, pH and temperature.

Byron.


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> I will revise that profile to make it a bit clearer. N. beckfordi is a good community fish, as it is not as "delicate" as pencilfish generally, but its feistiness does have to be born in mind.
> 
> If you decide on N. mortenthaleri I would get 7 and leave it at that. However, this fish must have soft acidic water, it simply will not last otherwise.
> 
> On the rams, yes, you are correct. Most dwarf cichlids can be very shy and having other fish around them (dither fish) usually settles them. But don't jump into things, you want to carefully select tankmates.
> 
> Just thought of something else, you have warm water for the rams, 82F or so, and the Golden Pencil is not too good this warm. All water parameters have to be checked for a species, GH, pH and temperature.
> 
> Byron.


ok ill wait on ordering those fish til later. for now im going to order more hatchetfish for now. i have a few that i moved over yesterday so the rams came out a little more. they are doing fine today. 
as for water parameters, im going to order a test kit online through amazon as it is cheaper that way, along with other things that i think i may need. right now my temp is about 81-82 so it fits with the fish im trying to purchase. im not sure my exact pH but according to the water report its neutral to basic. and since the rams were local, they grew up in these water conditinos as well.
on another note, i noticed some brown algae spots on my tank wall. right now i am running light from about 11-12 in the afternoon til about 9-10 at night. about a 10 or 11 hour cycle. should i reduce this to limit the algae? im also thinking about getting otos for this tank. i have 1 in my other tank (had 3 before) and he is very efficient.


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## pandamonium

so i was thinking about the acid/soft water needed for these pencilfish and i saw some products at the fish store designed to reduce pH, not straight pH but more of a buffer which i assume is better. they were by seachem and it was a neutral, acid, and basic buffer (3 different ones). are these products safe to use/have you used them before? as they are buffers, my first thought is that they are ok, provided that the fish have enough time to adapt to the change. in my last tank i tried using straight pH reducer but that did not work well. water has 0 buffer capacity so it hovered for a while, then plummeted. thank god no fish were in there at the time.


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> ok ill wait on ordering those fish til later. for now im going to order more hatchetfish for now. i have a few that i moved over yesterday so the rams came out a little more. they are doing fine today.
> as for water parameters, im going to order a test kit online through amazon as it is cheaper that way, along with other things that i think i may need. right now my temp is about 81-82 so it fits with the fish im trying to purchase. im not sure my exact pH but according to the water report its neutral to basic. and since the rams were local, they grew up in these water conditinos as well.
> on another note, i noticed some brown algae spots on my tank wall. right now i am running light from about 11-12 in the afternoon til about 9-10 at night. about a 10 or 11 hour cycle. should i reduce this to limit the algae? im also thinking about getting otos for this tank. i have 1 in my other tank (had 3 before) and he is very efficient.


The brown "algae" is actually diatoms. In new tanks it is common to have this at some point during the first couple of months. As the tank's biology establishes this will disappear (not be increasing I mean). For now, keep it off plant leaves, it easily comes off with your fingers. And it will easily come off tank glass with a sponge scraper. At this stage it is not related to the light, but simply a fact of biological instability.


----------



## Byron

pandamonium said:


> so i was thinking about the acid/soft water needed for these pencilfish and i saw some products at the fish store designed to reduce pH, not straight pH but more of a buffer which i assume is better. they were by seachem and it was a neutral, acid, and basic buffer (3 different ones). are these products safe to use/have you used them before? as they are buffers, my first thought is that they are ok, provided that the fish have enough time to adapt to the change. in my last tank i tried using straight pH reducer but that did not work well. water has 0 buffer capacity so it hovered for a while, then plummeted. thank god no fish were in there at the time.


Bevfore you go down the road of adjusting water parameters, do a thorough bit of research. It is very involved, and dumping chemicals into the tank usually won't work, and these are very stressful on fish. If water has to be adjusted, doing it a natural way is the only safe way. As you say, the pH reducer didn't work in your other tank, and this is probably because of the KH (carbonate hardness or Alkalinity) which buffers the pH to keep it where it is. Have a read of this article:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-articles/water-hardness-ph-freshwater-aquarium-73276/

Then find out the GH and KH of your tap water from the water supply people, they may have this on a website. And test the pH of the tap water (shake a jar of water very briskly for several moments before testing to outgas the CO2).

Byron.


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## pandamonium

ok i see. i just looked up my water quality report. the most recent one was from 2010 so not too recent now i guess. im ordering a test kit online (the freshwater master test kit by API as well as the GH KH kit by them too). ill order tomorrow and test when i get it. 
as of 2010, the water quality was
TDS average: 95ppm, range of 27-174ppm 
hardness (CaCO3) average: 53ppm, range of 8-104ppm
alkalinity (CaCO3) average: 49ppm, range of 8-98ppm
pH average: 8.5, range of 8.2-8.7
calcium average: 12ppm, range of 2-26ppm
magnesium average: 4.6ppm, range of 0.3-9ppm

from these numbers and your sticky, i guess that my water is soft? but yet it has a high pH. ill have real number within a week hopefully. 
in the meantime, i was wondering. i have a few rams in the tank and they all get along. there are not many dither fish so they hide a lot but forage when the aquarium lights go out but my room lights are still on. some rams are larger than others. eventually, will they all reach the same size? or will some be stunted?


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> ok i see. i just looked up my water quality report. the most recent one was from 2010 so not too recent now i guess. im ordering a test kit online (the freshwater master test kit by API as well as the GH KH kit by them too). ill order tomorrow and test when i get it.
> as of 2010, the water quality was
> TDS average: 95ppm, range of 27-174ppm
> hardness (CaCO3) average: 53ppm, range of 8-104ppm
> alkalinity (CaCO3) average: 49ppm, range of 8-98ppm
> pH average: 8.5, range of 8.2-8.7
> calcium average: 12ppm, range of 2-26ppm
> magnesium average: 4.6ppm, range of 0.3-9ppm
> 
> from these numbers and your sticky, i guess that my water is soft? but yet it has a high pH. ill have real number within a week hopefully.
> in the meantime, i was wondering. i have a few rams in the tank and they all get along. there are not many dither fish so they hide a lot but forage when the aquarium lights go out but my room lights are still on. some rams are larger than others. eventually, will they all reach the same size? or will some be stunted?


From those numbers, yes, you have soft water. They are probably adding something to raise the pH, this is not unheard of. But with a low KH the pH should tend to lower (test the tank pH with your new test kit), and you could assist this by diluting the water with pure water. Rainwater works, if it is safe to use where you live. Or distilled water or Reverse Osmosis water.

I can't say on the ram size, there are many factors.


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> From those numbers, yes, you have soft water. They are probably adding something to raise the pH, this is not unheard of. But with a low KH the pH should tend to lower (test the tank pH with your new test kit), and you could assist this by diluting the water with pure water. Rainwater works, if it is safe to use where you live. Or distilled water or Reverse Osmosis water.
> 
> I can't say on the ram size, there are many factors.


i just ordered the test kits and all other aquarium stuff. also i just removed my carbon filter and dosed some fertilizers for my plants. im using the flourish comprehensive. i put in about 3 mL for a 40 gallon tank. i think i will start by dosing once per week and seeing how that goes. then doing it twice per week. frogbit roots are getting long, and i like the look of it. if i ever need to trim them, do i just break off a part of the roots and throw them away?


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> i just ordered the test kits and all other aquarium stuff. also i just removed my carbon filter and dosed some fertilizers for my plants. im using the flourish comprehensive. i put in about 3 mL for a 40 gallon tank. i think i will start by dosing once per week and seeing how that goes. then doing it twice per week. frogbit roots are getting long, and i like the look of it. if i ever need to trim them, do i just break off a part of the roots and throw them away?


I personally wouldn't trim roots of Frogbit. They will not get that massive, and even if they did, fish love to swim among these browsing for microscopic food.

That's about right for the Flourish. They say 2.5 ml (= 1/2 teaspoon) doses 30g. Once a week should be sufficient, but after a couple weeks see how the plants are doing. No point in overdosing.


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## pandamonium

so i read the article and i did a little research on altering pH in the natural way without buffers and all that, but i dont quite understand it. i get to raise the pH and hardness, you can use crushed coral or other similar materials. however to lower pH, all i found was peat moss. are there any other ways you know of to do this?


----------



## Byron

pandamonium said:


> so i read the article and i did a little research on altering pH in the natural way without buffers and all that, but i dont quite understand it. i get to raise the pH and hardness, you can use crushed coral or other similar materials. however to lower pH, all i found was peat moss. are there any other ways you know of to do this?


Peat works to lower GH and pH, but it wears out (how fast depends upon the initial GH and the water volume and amount of peat) and needs regular replacement. A safer way is to simply dilute the water with "pure" water such as rainwater, distilled water or RO (reverse osmosis treated) water.


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## pandamonium

just diluting the water will lower the pH? is this because you remove the buffering capacity?


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> just diluting the water will lower the pH? is this because you remove the buffering capacity?


Partly, and the "pure" water will also have a lower pH itself.


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## pandamonium

ok i see. that would make sense. 
out of curiosity byron, how did you train your woodcats to come out at 5pm every two days to get bloodworms? i would be interested in seeing mine a bit more during the evening


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> ok i see. that would make sense.
> out of curiosity byron, how did you train your woodcats to come out at 5pm every two days to get bloodworms? i would be interested in seeing mine a bit more during the evening


First, select a time when you will normally be there to feed them, it could be any time; but it will be bloodworms, or shrimp, other worms, whatever. Just their treat. Then the first day you do this, use a baster or similar to squirt the worms where they are, in their tunnel. If you do this at the same time each day you do it, they soon learn. I wouldn't feed bloodworms more than twice a week, but if you can get frozen shrimp or some other similar food, you could do this every day to get them used to it. All I have to do now is slide the cover glass back at that time and out they come. At other times, never see them.


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## pandamonium

crap i just found ich in my tank. i did a frantic search on every forum i knew and google as well to see the methods to use. i found you posts on another person's thread here byron. i am not resorting to medication, though i can see spots on 2 or 3 of my rams and on 1 of my catfish (i think he might die which is terrible  as i have grown quite accustommed to them). i started raising the temperature on my tank. being that my heater is an inline one, the temperature is going up steadiliy, maybe 1 degree an hour or a tad faster than that. im going to stop it at 86 as i dont think the other catfish can handle a higher temperature. 
while browsing i saw that you commented on another person who also had ich. you told them to raise the temperature to 85-86 and leave it there for a bit. im going to do that. i also bought coppersafe as you suggested that as well. my ich development is much further along, there are more than 10 white spots on some of the fish  i am doing a 50% water change now, then will adminster the coppersafe. i hope the fish survive. also, one of my woodcats is not getting enough to eat. how should i handle that? she is very skinny. im pretty much going to follow the thread as you had it.
Here is what you said:

That is ich, mild but present. I see this often on new fish. Removing the spotted fish is pointless as the ich is in the tank and will attack other fish, so treatment must occur in the tank with the fish when you first see it.

Sometimes you can let this go and the fish will fight it off. But if it were me and I saw what is in your photos, I would treat the tank. Best treatment for sensitive fish is heat and CopperSafe. I have never had issues with this treatment, and I have some very sensitive wild-caught fish.

Raising the temp to at least 90F will work, though I have never tried this since I have fish that cannot tolerate this. I use CopperSafe with the heat raised to 85F.

Do a water change [this is because the tank will not have another for 1-2 weeks] and raise the temperature to 85F partly with the water change and partly by raising the setting on the heater. Add the recommended dose of CopperSafe immediately after the water change; I believe it is one teaspoon per 4 gallons. Remember that substrate, wood, rock will displace some water, so in a 29g tank for instance there will likely be around 23 actual gallons of water, roughly.

Maintain the 85F temp for one full week, then turn the heater back to its normal setting and just let the tank naturally cool down. Do another water change 3-4 days after that.

Byron.
__________________

after the week, how concerned should i be of another outbreak?


----------



## Byron

pandamonium said:


> crap i just found ich in my tank. i did a frantic search on every forum i knew and google as well to see the methods to use. i found you posts on another person's thread here byron. i am not resorting to medication, though i can see spots on 2 or 3 of my rams and on 1 of my catfish (i think he might die which is terrible  as i have grown quite accustommed to them). i started raising the temperature on my tank. being that my heater is an inline one, the temperature is going up steadiliy, maybe 1 degree an hour or a tad faster than that. im going to stop it at 86 as i dont think the other catfish can handle a higher temperature.
> while browsing i saw that you commented on another person who also had ich. you told them to raise the temperature to 85-86 and leave it there for a bit. im going to do that. i also bought coppersafe as you suggested that as well. my ich development is much further along, there are more than 10 white spots on some of the fish  i am doing a 50% water change now, then will adminster the coppersafe. i hope the fish survive. also, one of my woodcats is not getting enough to eat. how should i handle that? she is very skinny. im pretty much going to follow the thread as you had it.
> Here is what you said:
> 
> That is ich, mild but present. I see this often on new fish. Removing the spotted fish is pointless as the ich is in the tank and will attack other fish, so treatment must occur in the tank with the fish when you first see it.
> 
> Sometimes you can let this go and the fish will fight it off. But if it were me and I saw what is in your photos, I would treat the tank. Best treatment for sensitive fish is heat and CopperSafe. I have never had issues with this treatment, and I have some very sensitive wild-caught fish.
> 
> Raising the temp to at least 90F will work, though I have never tried this since I have fish that cannot tolerate this. I use CopperSafe with the heat raised to 85F.
> 
> Do a water change [this is because the tank will not have another for 1-2 weeks] and raise the temperature to 85F partly with the water change and partly by raising the setting on the heater. Add the recommended dose of CopperSafe immediately after the water change; I believe it is one teaspoon per 4 gallons. Remember that substrate, wood, rock will displace some water, so in a 29g tank for instance there will likely be around 23 actual gallons of water, roughly.
> 
> Maintain the 85F temp for one full week, then turn the heater back to its normal setting and just let the tank naturally cool down. Do another water change 3-4 days after that.
> 
> Byron.
> __________________
> 
> after the week, how concerned should i be of another outbreak?


I concur with that process. Caught early it should work. Stay out of the tank, to keep the fish less stressed. Feeding once a day as normal. On the woodcat eating, just squirt thawed frozen bloodworms into the wood where the fish lives.


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> I concur with that process. Caught early it should work. Stay out of the tank, to keep the fish less stressed. Feeding once a day as normal. On the woodcat eating, just squirt thawed frozen bloodworms into the wood where the fish lives.


ok so i just finished day 1. the rams look fine, if not more active than normal. maybe its the increased temperature? and i bought a turkey baster to squirt the thawed bloodworms. the sickly looking cat ate a few (very few) and then returned to hiding. the other 2 did not seem interested. i have heard that these catfish relish bloodworms but its strange how mine dont. are there any other floating food options? since the catfish are surface feeders?


----------



## Byron

pandamonium said:


> ok so i just finished day 1. the rams look fine, if not more active than normal. maybe its the increased temperature? and i bought a turkey baster to squirt the thawed bloodworms. the sickly looking cat ate a few (very few) and then returned to hiding. the other 2 did not seem interested. i have heard that these catfish relish bloodworms but its strange how mine dont. are there any other floating food options? since the catfish are surface feeders?


Putting in some floating foods (flake, micro pellet) after dark might work. The fish are still new, and will take time to settle, so don't panic or rush them. They will eat if they are hungry.


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> Putting in some floating foods (flake, micro pellet) after dark might work. The fish are still new, and will take time to settle, so don't panic or rush them. They will eat if they are hungry.


ok i have the micro pellets. i may get some larger floating pellets as well as daphnia too. i figured i should vary the diet of my fish anyhow. 
oh here is a picture of my sick cat. it does not make me happy. she is defintiely not as thin as she was before (thanks for the turkey baster idea  ) but still does not look anything close to healthy. my other two are doing fine. not eating but still normal to chubby. the spots on her almost looked yellow, but im pretty sure they are white. i did a search on honeycombs and found that they are more susceptible to ich than other fish. do you think that this is true/why do you think that is?
also there is a funny yellow spot behind her eye. you can see it, its pretty large in the picture, about 1/4 body length from her eyes. any idea on what that might be? it hasnt moved or anything. just didnt look normal.


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## Byron

I will never guess on disease/health issues, I simply don't have sufficient experience [except with ich, we all have experience with that:roll:]. That could be a protozoan, or an external injury.

You might want to post the photo in the disease section.


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> I will never guess on disease/health issues, I simply don't have sufficient experience [except with ich, we all have experience with that:roll:]. That could be a protozoan, or an external injury.
> 
> You might want to post the photo in the disease section.


i may try that. unfortunately, she died last night  i fished her out to prevent anything from spreading. the ich seems to have hit its next stage as my other catfish are showing white specks. they are still full of color though and definitely well fed. the rams are showing some more white spots but not many. i dosed about 40 mL of coppersafe (fit for 32 gallons) instead of 50mL due to displacement. it is a one time dose, right?


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## pandamonium

the next shipment of my fish came in today, 7 more hatchets. i have them for the moment in the other tank until my ich is over. just to be safe. if i can move them sooner, please let me know but for the time being, they are not in the ich-treated tank. also, the next shipment of lemon tetras should come in i think next week. i also ordered another woodcat to bring my total back to 3. regarding the hatchets i got. they were very small, and almost transparent. im assuming they are probably young or still developing? i asked for silver hatchets and i do not think that they sent any dwarf or pygmy species. do you happen to know what developing hatchetfish look like?


----------



## Byron

> i may try that. unfortunately, she died last night  i fished her out to prevent anything from spreading. the ich seems to have hit its next stage as my other catfish are showing white specks. they are still full of color though and definitely well fed. the rams are showing some more white spots but not many. i dosed about 40 mL of coppersafe (fit for 32 gallons) instead of 50mL due to displacement. it is a one time dose, right?


Correct. Yu can also raise the temperature, the rams and woodcats will be fine, up to 86F which will speed up the ich cycle.



> the next shipment of my fish came in today, 7 more hatchets. i have them for the moment in the other tank until my ich is over. just to be safe. if i can move them sooner, please let me know but for the time being, they are not in the ich-treated tank. also, the next shipment of lemon tetras should come in i think next week. i also ordered another woodcat to bring my total back to 3. regarding the hatchets i got. they were very small, and almost transparent. im assuming they are probably young or still developing? i asked for silver hatchets and i do not think that they sent any dwarf or pygmy species. do you happen to know what developing hatchetfish look like?


Leave the hatchetfish in the other tank for at least 3 weeks, probably 4 to be safe. This fish is highly susceptible to ich, and it can be nasty. Also, put any other new fish (lemon tetra, woodcat) in this temporary tank too until the end of this period. Aside from susceptibility, any new fish will be stressed, and stressed fish are far more liable to contract ich whereas the fish in the ich tank will be fighting it off better. Adding new fish to them will also add stress, which is only likely to cause the ich to increase.

When ich is treated, it is not always the case that all of it is eradicated. Some may linger, unseen. Ich can remain in tanks for months and months without any visible sign, but as soon as fish are stressed, it breaks out. Many now believe ich is always present in all water--most every aquarium, every natural stream--and if the fish are in good health they fend it off.

On the hatchet species, regardless of size, they will have species-specific traits. The species in Carnegiella do not have an adipose fin, the others do, though in young fish this is very difficult to spot. If you could post a clear photo I might be able to ID it.


----------



## pandamonium

Byron said:


> Correct. Yu can also raise the temperature, the rams and woodcats will be fine, up to 86F which will speed up the ich cycle.
> 
> Leave the hatchetfish in the other tank for at least 3 weeks, probably 4 to be safe. This fish is highly susceptible to ich, and it can be nasty. Also, put any other new fish (lemon tetra, woodcat) in this temporary tank too until the end of this period. Aside from susceptibility, any new fish will be stressed, and stressed fish are far more liable to contract ich whereas the fish in the ich tank will be fighting it off better. Adding new fish to them will also add stress, which is only likely to cause the ich to increase.
> 
> When ich is treated, it is not always the case that all of it is eradicated. Some may linger, unseen. Ich can remain in tanks for months and months without any visible sign, but as soon as fish are stressed, it breaks out. Many now believe ich is always present in all water--most every aquarium, every natural stream--and if the fish are in good health they fend it off.
> 
> On the hatchet species, regardless of size, they will have species-specific traits. The species in Carnegiella do not have an adipose fin, the others do, though in young fish this is very difficult to spot. If you could post a clear photo I might be able to ID it.


ok thats good. my temperature right now is a hair under 86 (about 85.8 or so). i just did a read up on the ich life cycle. my rams look like most of the cysts are gone, my honeycombs i didnt check yet, i have to check tonight when they come out a little from their tunnels. two days ago, they had a few small spots. im assuming now that some of the parasite has gone into its encapsulated stage or is free swimming. the coppersafe, does it work by killing the free swimming ich? i have always been curious as to how this works. i understand the salt treatment as it is basic biology but i am interested in the copper treatment and why it works. i will probably search around for that. 
i also found a source that said that copper treatments will destroy the beneficial bacteria in the tank. will coppersafe do this as well? and if it does, how should i counter it? i read a study that another individual did with a cycle supplement, nutrafin cycle, and the numbers showed that the cycling process from dry tank to fish tank was shortened to 3 days (or he was able to add fish 3 days after starting a tank). i already own this stuff so will using it be pointless (as the copper would kill it)? 
ok i have otos and hatchets in the other tank. ill wait the time you specified under the ich is under control and hopefully gone. it would make sense that the ich remains in the water until stress returns. but if i have the coppersafe in the water, shouldnt all the ich eventually pass through this stage and eventually just die?
and i tried to take a clear picture of the fish. you can see all the fins on it. hopefully it is clear enough.


----------



## Byron

> ok thats good. my temperature right now is a hair under 86 (about 85.8 or so). i just did a read up on the ich life cycle. my rams look like most of the cysts are gone, my honeycombs i didnt check yet, i have to check tonight when they come out a little from their tunnels. two days ago, they had a few small spots. im assuming now that some of the parasite has gone into its encapsulated stage or is free swimming. the coppersafe, does it work by killing the free swimming ich? i have always been curious as to how this works. i understand the salt treatment as it is basic biology but i am interested in the copper treatment and why it works. i will probably search around for that.


The idea behind any ich treatment is the same, to kill the free swimming stage before they find a host. Copper is a toxic metal that in sufficient strength will kill any living organism, be it bacteria, fish, plants, humans, etc. What I like about CopperSafe is that it is not as strong as most other copper-based remedies, and I have never lost delicate fish when using it, whereas i have with other products. However, because it is not as strong, it is possible that some free-swimming ich may penetrate the barrier. Which is why I caution 3-4 weeks. By this time the fish will have basically recovered, built up their strength and immune systems and you won't have a problem. Also, spots may be visible several days into the treatment, so don't be discouraged by that.



> i also found a source that said that copper treatments will destroy the beneficial bacteria in the tank. will coppersafe do this as well? and if it does, how should i counter it?


I addressed this above.



> i read a study that another individual did with a cycle supplement, nutrafin cycle, and the numbers showed that the cycling process from dry tank to fish tank was shortened to 3 days (or he was able to add fish 3 days after starting a tank). i already own this stuff so will using it be pointless (as the copper would kill it)?


Cycling products will generally shorten the period for establishing nitrifying bacteria in new tanks, though not as much as claimed here. Several factors play into this too. I used Cycle many years ago, but now I use other products which are true live bacteria of the right sort. But these are not instant cycled tank products, they simply help seed the tank with bacteria. One still have to go slow. Having live plants, and fast growing/floating ones, all but eliminates this anyway and is much safer.



> ok i have otos and hatchets in the other tank. ill wait the time you specified under the ich is under control and hopefully gone. it would make sense that the ich remains in the water until stress returns. but if i have the coppersafe in the water, shouldnt all the ich eventually pass through this stage and eventually just die?


As I said above, CS is weak and some ich may get through, but this is not a concern.



> and i tried to take a clear picture of the fish. you can see all the fins on it. hopefully it is clear enough.


That looks to me like the Silver Hatchet, Gasteropelecus sternicla. I can't make out an adipose fin or not, but I'd be fairly certain there is one. Check yours with the photos in our profile. The other larger "Silver" hatchets are very similar, and can appear under the same common name. But care is basically identical whichever they are. These grow a bit larger than the species in Carnegiella, all four of which are in the profiles.


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## pandamonium

yeah i read that the ich life cycle accelerates past a certain temperature, which meant that all of a sudden, there would be like a "spike" in ich symptoms, which would mean that the heat treatment was working. im not too concerned about that. i am keeping a close eye on initial hatchets (present before the ich) and my woodcats, which i read are highly susceptible. i lost one, which may have been the ich vector but the other two as of now are still doing ok. they have color and are not skinny. the rams are eating and coming to the surface for food. maybe a single hatchet is an ok dither fish. ill have friends for him soon. 
and i agree with the cycling products. i use them to seed the tank. i have frogbit and pennywort now which apparently are both good plants to absorb ammonium and such so i feel thats ok.
about the two plants though. i am fertilizing once a week. the frogbit roots seem to have gotten shorter. and there are still some dying leaves. on the pennywort some of the roots off the stem are brown? is that ok? and the leaves are covered with a brown substance too, like brown algae kind of. im scared to brush it for a reason i will explain later. 
my java moss has been releasing some kinda of filament. its a brighter green than the moss itself and looks more like a plant than anything. is this normal? should i tie it down or let it float/sway in the current? here is a picture. the filament is going across the driftwood from upper left branch to lower right branch. it is attached to the upper left clump and is free floating. 








finally last issue. the reason i am scared is because i lost a hatchet today due to i think tank violence? but i was removing his body and all of a sudden, 1 more hatchet just died. out of the blue. i was adjusting my nozzle and before he had been swimming on the surface. i didnt touch him or anything. but it just dropped dead and floated around and died. is this a common hatchet occureence?
and thats good to hear that the hatchets i bought were silver hatchets. i ordered them. maybe they are just young. i hope they can grow up


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## Byron

Odd about the hatchet, may have been injured or something. Java Moss is fine, sounds like new growth. The brown is likely diatoms, if it easily wipes off with your fingers; common in new setups (2-3 months), will stop as things settle.


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## pandamonium

ok sounds good. i will leave the java moss strands floating then. another hatchet died today. i think it might be ram aggression? my two rams that spawned last time, they were both females, i found them in some sand pits they dug in the back of the tank? perhaps they are going to lay eggs again? even though they wont be fertile as i have no mature males? 
on another note i received my test kit today and did all the tests to finally have a legitimate set of numbers. 
ammonia: 0ppm
nitrite: 0ppm
nitrate: 5ppm
pH: 7.4-7.6 (will test again with high range pH tomorrow)
KH: 3-4 dKH
GH: 6 dGH (could this be higher due to the copper meds in the water?)

i'd still like to keep the nannostomus mortenthaleri. as the numbers stand, my water is soft but still has a higher pH than is optimal. if i use RO/DI water from those machines at walmart/safeway/grocery store that filter to DI water, will that help lower my pH?


----------



## Byron

pandamonium said:


> ok sounds good. i will leave the java moss strands floating then. another hatchet died today. i think it might be ram aggression? my two rams that spawned last time, they were both females, i found them in some sand pits they dug in the back of the tank? perhaps they are going to lay eggs again? even though they wont be fertile as i have no mature males?
> on another note i received my test kit today and did all the tests to finally have a legitimate set of numbers.
> ammonia: 0ppm
> nitrite: 0ppm
> nitrate: 5ppm
> pH: 7.4-7.6 (will test again with high range pH tomorrow)
> KH: 3-4 dKH
> GH: 6 dGH (could this be higher due to the copper meds in the water?)
> 
> i'd still like to keep the nannostomus mortenthaleri. as the numbers stand, my water is soft but still has a higher pH than is optimal. if i use RO/DI water from those machines at walmart/safeway/grocery store that filter to DI water, will that help lower my pH?


I don't know the machines you are mentioning. One has to be careful. "Softeners" and "filters" for tap water may add salts to the water and make it even worse than it now is. Besides this, with the GH and KH as low as you indicate, there are better and safer ways to deal with lowering the pH. But before starting that, get the present tank settled biologically so fish are surviving and not dying.

And on that, I can't suggest what may be killing the hatchets, diagnosing issues like this is not easy even if I were there to see everything. If the rams are managing and even spawning, this would suggest the hatchet issue may be with the fish, not the tank. Assuming they are recent acquisitions, will the store credit you for the losses (replace them later)? I wouldn't add any more fish now until everything is settled, but this is worth checking with the store.


----------



## pandamonium

Byron said:


> I don't know the machines you are mentioning. One has to be careful. "Softeners" and "filters" for tap water may add salts to the water and make it even worse than it now is. Besides this, with the GH and KH as low as you indicate, there are better and safer ways to deal with lowering the pH. But before starting that, get the present tank settled biologically so fish are surviving and not dying.
> 
> And on that, I can't suggest what may be killing the hatchets, diagnosing issues like this is not easy even if I were there to see everything. If the rams are managing and even spawning, this would suggest the hatchet issue may be with the fish, not the tank. Assuming they are recent acquisitions, will the store credit you for the losses (replace them later)? I wouldn't add any more fish now until everything is settled, but this is worth checking with the store.


they are like these machines. i know they put out RO/DI water and the TDS is very low. my friend used them at school for a shrimp tank he set up. 









i am holding off on fish for now. ich treatment is at the day 6 mark. i still see some on my woodcat's tails. my rams seem to be fairly free from it and my lone hatchet has not been affected yet at all (visible signs). another 4 days and i will let the temperature go down back to 81 and then do a 50% water change as you suggested in your other post. 

unfortunately the store will not refund any live merchandise once i step out of the store. they have very low prices, almost wholesale but they have a clause on their receipt that says no guarantees on live purchases. i usually ask them to bag the fish and i will take it straight home (the fish never stops in their tanks) because their water quality is not the greatest. i did this with the honeycombs and they were fine until one got ich in my tank almost 3 weeks later. but when the fish are in the tanks, the mortality seems to increase. ill hold off on other fish for now, at least until my diatom issue goes away. it doesnt affect my water i dont think but its still quite annoying to look at. what i am planning on doing is buying a PVC pipe or something similar and attaching a credit card or plastic card to the end as a scraper. i would buy one but i dont know if the magfloat or the toms scraper is better. figured i would save money if i just DIY the scraper. 
also just rechecked my water parameters. its about 7.4. would pH raisers eventually wear off so that the water drops to 7 or lower? or would addition of RO/DI water lower it to 7 or lower?


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## Byron

> also just rechecked my water parameters. its about 7.4. would pH raisers eventually wear off so that the water drops to 7 or lower? or would addition of RO/DI water lower it to 7 or lower?


What pH raisers is this?

To the second question, if the source water is not targeted somehow, the GH, KH and pH will be stable. The biological processes at work in an aquarium will tend to lower the pH, but this will be resisted by the KH depending what it is.

As soon as you start targeting the pH with any chemicals, this can affect the above. Again it depends upon the KH, and also how you are doing the targeting.

Assuming the tap water remains stable, then yes, diluting it with "pure" water would reduce the GH and KH accordingly. The pH might lower depending upon the pH of the "pure" water and the level of KH after the dilution.


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> What pH raisers is this?
> 
> To the second question, if the source water is not targeted somehow, the GH, KH and pH will be stable. The biological processes at work in an aquarium will tend to lower the pH, but this will be resisted by the KH depending what it is.
> 
> As soon as you start targeting the pH with any chemicals, this can affect the above. Again it depends upon the KH, and also how you are doing the targeting.
> 
> Assuming the tap water remains stable, then yes, diluting it with "pure" water would reduce the GH and KH accordingly. The pH might lower depending upon the pH of the "pure" water and the level of KH after the dilution.


in one of your posts above when i gave you my water parameters, you suggested that they may have done something to raise the pH of the water. i dont actually know what we would call that but i just picked pH raiser. not really sure what they would use, but i assumed thats the function it performed. 
im not sure what you mean by source water being targeted. do you mean that it has a set point that the water company is trying to achieve with water parameters?
i understand how pH and KH play together i think. basically KH is a buffering capacity to prevent the pH from decreasing. so if i reduce the KH, then the buffering capacity drops, therefore leading to a lower pH from natural biological processes. 
i may give this a try though it may be expensive for me. the one issue i came across when researching this was that if the pH fluctuates too much, fish will be stressed. the reason i want to change the pH to be lower is because you said that the red coral pencilfish thrives in soft acidic conditions. being that my pH is about 7.4 and my water is soft, do you think that keeping the pH stable (as opposed to adjusting it) would work with the pencilfish?


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## Byron

> in one of your posts above when i gave you my water parameters, you suggested that they may have done something to raise the pH of the water. i dont actually know what we would call that but i just picked pH raiser. not really sure what they would use, but i assumed thats the function it performed.


This is usually not a concern; my water board adds ash to raise the pH, but it does not affect the GH or KH, so in the tank, the pH naturally lowers quickly.



> im not sure what you mean by source water being targeted. do you mean that it has a set point that the water company is trying to achieve with water parameters?


Here i was meaning you targeting the GH, KH otr pH in the tank somehow. For instance, if you add calcareous substances (sand, gravel, rock made of calcium-based material like limestone, marble, etc) it will affect the GH, KH and pH and raise all three, depending how much there is. This is targetting. With inert sand/gravel and rocks, the GH, KH and pH will remain what it is in the tap water. The pH may naturally lower if there is no buffering KH.



> i understand how pH and KH play together i think. basically KH is a buffering capacity to prevent the pH from decreasing. so if i reduce the KH, then the buffering capacity drops, therefore leading to a lower pH from natural biological processes.


Yes. The lower the KH, the less buffering so the quicker and lower the pH will naturally fall.



> i may give this a try though it may be expensive for me. the one issue i came across when researching this was that if the pH fluctuates too much, fish will be stressed. the reason i want to change the pH to be lower is because you said that the red coral pencilfish thrives in soft acidic conditions. being that my pH is about 7.4 and my water is soft, do you think that keeping the pH stable (as opposed to adjusting it) would work with the pencilfish?


As this fish species will be wild caught, and it occurs in ver soft and acidic waters (the Rio Nanay in Peru is the only confitrmed habitat of this beautiful species), blackwater streams and flooded forest to be specific. Your GH is fine, but I would target the pH to lower it. [You now know what target means;-).] Once the pH is below 7, because of the low KH it will likely stay there. The tank's biological system will maintain it.


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> This is usually not a concern; my water board adds ash to raise the pH, but it does not affect the GH or KH, so in the tank, the pH naturally lowers quickly.
> 
> Here i was meaning you targeting the GH, KH otr pH in the tank somehow. For instance, if you add calcareous substances (sand, gravel, rock made of calcium-based material like limestone, marble, etc) it will affect the GH, KH and pH and raise all three, depending how much there is. This is targetting. With inert sand/gravel and rocks, the GH, KH and pH will remain what it is in the tap water. The pH may naturally lower if there is no buffering KH.
> 
> Yes. The lower the KH, the less buffering so the quicker and lower the pH will naturally fall.
> 
> As this fish species will be wild caught, and it occurs in ver soft and acidic waters (the Rio Nanay in Peru is the only confitrmed habitat of this beautiful species), blackwater streams and flooded forest to be specific. Your GH is fine, but I would target the pH to lower it. [You now know what target means;-).] Once the pH is below 7, because of the low KH it will likely stay there. The tank's biological system will maintain it.


ok so i will not be too concerned. my water comes out of the tap at 8.2 or something. the fact that is lowered to 7.2 in my tank is good in terms of how far i am from the ideal conditions. this is starting to all make sense now at least the interplay between different water parameters. 
supposing i use RO/DI water to lower my KH which would hopefully lower my GH, how much would i add? is there a specific way to add this in? or is it just throw it in and pray? (which i would hope its not haha)


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> ok so i will not be too concerned. my water comes out of the tap at 8.2 or something. the fact that is lowered to 7.2 in my tank is good in terms of how far i am from the ideal conditions. this is starting to all make sense now at least the interplay between different water parameters.
> supposing i use RO/DI water to lower my KH which would hopefully lower my GH, how much would i add? is there a specific way to add this in? or is it just throw it in and pray? (which i would hope its not haha)


Using "pure" water will dilute the tap proportionally to the amount. As an example, half pure water with half tap will reduce the GH/KH by half. The pH is a bit different, because the "pure" water will have a pH of its own and this will mix. It will be lower, and then lower more in time.

If this were me, i would tend to use rainwater. It is zero GH/KH and has an acidic pH. And it is inexpensive. Provided you live where you get enough rainfall.:lol: Which you do in SF.


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## pandamonium

ok i will start collecting rainfall. i live right by the ocean so if i leave buckets out, it will mainly be morning mist. ill probbaly have to be diligent about collecting actual rainwater. if the most efficient way to collect it is through gutters, should i run the collected rain water through a carbon filter to remove any metals? or should i collect it by leaving buckets outside in the rain

also, upon checking my tank, all the hatchets i bought have died which is bad but i am attributing that to fish store water. and one of my rams i just found dead. i know rams are a difficult fish to keep due to water conditions and such, but i have had these rams for over a month now and my water parameters seem appropriate. is it just because they are starting to mature and getting territorial? i have many hiding spots for them throughout the tank. i guess its just a size thing. this was the smallest ram.


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## pandamonium

i looked up two more plants that i was thinking about using in this tank (after my tank balances out): staurogyne repens and Heteranthera zosterifolia. 
i think both are from the amazon region or at least south america. i thought it would be nice to have some patches of s. repens near my driftwood and some star grass to look different from the swords that i am planning to have. i am still thinking about cabomba provided i can get some 
have you had experience with these plants before? will they be possible to add to my tank? also my frogbit has been losing its long roots. they are all very short now, though the frogbit is quite green and looks healthy. pennywort is still doing fine. they are almost growing out the aquarium so i will have to prune soon.


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> ok i will start collecting rainfall. i live right by the ocean so if i leave buckets out, it will mainly be morning mist. ill probbaly have to be diligent about collecting actual rainwater. if the most efficient way to collect it is through gutters, should i run the collected rain water through a carbon filter to remove any metals? or should i collect it by leaving buckets outside in the rain
> 
> also, upon checking my tank, all the hatchets i bought have died which is bad but i am attributing that to fish store water. and one of my rams i just found dead. i know rams are a difficult fish to keep due to water conditions and such, but i have had these rams for over a month now and my water parameters seem appropriate. is it just because they are starting to mature and getting territorial? i have many hiding spots for them throughout the tank. i guess its just a size thing. this was the smallest ram.


I would collect rainwater in clean tubs or buckets. One of those plastic garbage bin containers would be fine. Water off a roof might pick up chemicals from the roofing or eaves.

The fish deaths could be one of several things. Have you tested ammonia, nitrite an nitrate? Temperature? How long has the tank been running?


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> I would collect rainwater in clean tubs or buckets. One of those plastic garbage bin containers would be fine. Water off a roof might pick up chemicals from the roofing or eaves.
> 
> The fish deaths could be one of several things. Have you tested ammonia, nitrite an nitrate? Temperature? How long has the tank been running?


ok i will do that when it rains. since it is the summer right now, there wont be too much. would collecting morning mist be the same as rain? 
the ammonia and nitrite are both 0ppm so that is good. the nitrate i checked yesterday and it is still between 0 and 5ppm (closer to 5ppm). i did not do my water change this week as you suggested that i wait 10 days after the ich treatment began and then 3 to 4 days after that before making a water change. 
the temperature is about 86 as i am still dealing with the ich. i cant see much ich left on the fish so im praying for the best now. the tank has been up and running since about a month and 1 week so about 5 weeks since i filled it with water and plants (may 14th). my rams seem to be getting a little aggressive amongst themselves. i noticed two of them today flaring and attacking each other. one of them now seems to be hiding. it looks like s/he was injured so i hope s/he survives his injuries. im just hoping that once the rams pair off and mark territories that they will be able to avoid major altercations. losing fish is terrible.


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> ok i will do that when it rains. since it is the summer right now, there wont be too much. would collecting morning mist be the same as rain?
> the ammonia and nitrite are both 0ppm so that is good. the nitrate i checked yesterday and it is still between 0 and 5ppm (closer to 5ppm). i did not do my water change this week as you suggested that i wait 10 days after the ich treatment began and then 3 to 4 days after that before making a water change.
> the temperature is about 86 as i am still dealing with the ich. i cant see much ich left on the fish so im praying for the best now. the tank has been up and running since about a month and 1 week so about 5 weeks since i filled it with water and plants (may 14th). my rams seem to be getting a little aggressive amongst themselves. i noticed two of them today flaring and attacking each other. one of them now seems to be hiding. it looks like s/he was injured so i hope s/he survives his injuries. im just hoping that once the rams pair off and mark territories that they will be able to avoid major altercations. losing fish is terrible.


This is a very long thread and i've forgotten the tank size, but in my experience with several species of dwarf cichlids, aggressiveness is comon and fish die from it. We tend to forget that in their habitats, these fish never live in anywhere near so close proximity to each other as we force them into in an aquarium. They have a strong instinct to protect their territory and their brood.

You can leave the temp high for several days, just to be sure. Stopping treatments too soon can result in no cure and having to start all over.


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> This is a very long thread and i've forgotten the tank size, but in my experience with several species of dwarf cichlids, aggressiveness is comon and fish die from it. We tend to forget that in their habitats, these fish never live in anywhere near so close proximity to each other as we force them into in an aquarium. They have a strong instinct to protect their territory and their brood.
> 
> You can leave the temp high for several days, just to be sure. Stopping treatments too soon can result in no cure and having to start all over.


yeah it is. i have a lot of questions and i'm learning quite a bit from you through this thread about many aspects of fish keeping. 
the tank size is a 40 gallon breeder tank. i think i will keep my numbers at 4 at least until i can tell who is male and who is female. i know for certain my two most mature fish are both females. the other two could be 1 male and 1 female. 
i started the ich treatments on the 16th so i plan to keep them going until at least the 26th/27th which was the 10 days you recommended or a few days after i no longer see signs of the ich. after that i will let the temperature drop back down and do a water change 3-4 days after to remove the coppersafe. 
also, byron have you had experience with staurogyne repens and stargrass before? they look interesting and i would like to add them to my tank. just wondering if you had used them or know about them from a subjective point of view.


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> also, byron have you had experience with staurogyne repens and stargrass before? they look interesting and i would like to add them to my tank. just wondering if you had used them or know about them from a subjective point of view.


S. repens is apparently fairly new in the hobby. I know nothing about it. Here's a link to a site where they sell it, so i can't vouch for the info.
Staurogyne Repens Plant - Green Leaf Aquariums

Heteranthera zosterifolia [stargrass] I've never seen locally so haven't tried it either. Here's some info from Tropica:
Plant Details


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## pandamonium

thanks for the links byron. just an update. my package of plants came in yesterday so i rescaped my tank. it looks quite a bit better than it did before. i cut down on the amount of pennywort i had. i literally had enough to fill 2 40 gallons before this rescape. 
its lights out for my tank now, but i will post a photo of the tank tomorrow and definitely would appreciate any feedback you might have  
the S. repens, i planted it. i assumed that like pennywort, as long as you had enough stem, it owuld eventually grow roots. and since there are no roots in teh water column i think i have to go get root tabs tomorw. the package also came with some sunset hygro (i am in california so i believe it is legal here), blyxa japonica i think, and one more rare plant, but i think it died in shipment, which is just my luck. anyhow, though i wanted it to be an amazon tank, the seller was nice enough to give me all these other plants so i figured dont let them go to waste and just use them 
updates on the fish, the rams are doing well now and so are the two honeycombs. i dont visibly see any signs of ich so i will turn down the temperature thursday. then do a water change on sunday as planned.


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## Varkolak

Knuggs also sells repens if you want to get it from him, mine I got from him haven't decided if they want to take off or die yet but when they arrived they looked great :lol:


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## pandamonium

Varkolak said:


> Knuggs also sells repens if you want to get it from him, mine I got from him haven't decided if they want to take off or die yet but when they arrived they looked great :lol:


hey varkolak i just got the s. repens in yesterday. the plant looks great though i am unsure on how to propagate them. if you have any tips or know how to, let me know 
on another note, this is my tank now. comments on the aquascape are welcome


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## Byron

Hey, that is really very nice. Well done.:welldone:

My only suggestion to consider--I can't not make one:roll:--is to break up the curving line of substrate plants in a couple spots. I think I know what you were thinking, but it might look a tad more natural if it wasn't a solid line side to side but broken up in 2 or 3 spots. Yoou could have the plants sort of clumped in those places.

Byron.


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> Hey, that is really very nice. Well done.:welldone:
> 
> My only suggestion to consider--I can't not make one:roll:--is to break up the curving line of substrate plants in a couple spots. I think I know what you were thinking, but it might look a tad more natural if it wasn't a solid line side to side but broken up in 2 or 3 spots. Yoou could have the plants sort of clumped in those places.
> 
> Byron.


thanks byron  i am going to do that as soon as i finish dealing with the ich. i lowered the temp today so the tank is going back to its normal 81 degrees. after that and the water change then i will try that set up. 
i was thinking about my lighting and all the other day since i have plants now that require a bit more light. i dont want to do CO2 but i bought alternanthera rosafolia today and the lady said the colors will pop more with CO2. im scared to use it cuz of the pH swings and such esepcially if i use DIY yeast CO2. however, i figure with enough fish, maybe their respiration will provide me enough CO2? and i will turn off my airstone as well (turned it on through ich treatment since high temperature water has low O2 solubilty). should this be enough to have good plant growth? or should i cave and use CO2? 
lighting though was my main question. how bright can the light be before it becomes too bright for an amazon biotope. i was looking at some fixtures they sold in my area. some are 24 or 30 inch fixtures fit for t5ho bulbs like 60 or 72 watts or something. it would be an alternative to what i have now. what do you think about both the lighting and the CO2?
i have also heard that some people use flourish excel? what exactly does that do? i dont understand the website's description too well.


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## eaturbyfill

The tank looks great!


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## Byron

pandamonium said:


> thanks byron  i am going to do that as soon as i finish dealing with the ich. i lowered the temp today so the tank is going back to its normal 81 degrees. after that and the water change then i will try that set up.
> i was thinking about my lighting and all the other day since i have plants now that require a bit more light. i dont want to do CO2 but i bought alternanthera rosafolia today and the lady said the colors will pop more with CO2. im scared to use it cuz of the pH swings and such esepcially if i use DIY yeast CO2. however, i figure with enough fish, maybe their respiration will provide me enough CO2? and i will turn off my airstone as well (turned it on through ich treatment since high temperature water has low O2 solubilty). should this be enough to have good plant growth? or should i cave and use CO2?
> lighting though was my main question. how bright can the light be before it becomes too bright for an amazon biotope. i was looking at some fixtures they sold in my area. some are 24 or 30 inch fixtures fit for t5ho bulbs like 60 or 72 watts or something. it would be an alternative to what i have now. what do you think about both the lighting and the CO2?
> i have also heard that some people use flourish excel? what exactly does that do? i dont understand the website's description too well.


It's up to you if you want to go high-tech with diffused CO2. But that means brighter light, and significantly more nutrient fertilizing, perhaps daily. I have never done this and probably never will; I'm happy with the plants i have.

Not all plants will manage in all tanks. Not all plants will live together. Some of this is a bit trial and error.

This thread is so long i can't remember what was or wasn't covered, but I'm fairly sure lighting was discussed. I'm not going into all that again.

Excel is a liquid carbon supplement. I won't use it. It is a chemical, we discussed this toxic stuff in another thread, here:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/aquarium-plants/does-api-co2-booster-affect-nitrifying-105102/


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## pandamonium

Byron said:


> It's up to you if you want to go high-tech with diffused CO2. But that means brighter light, and significantly more nutrient fertilizing, perhaps daily. I have never done this and probably never will; I'm happy with the plants i have.
> 
> Not all plants will manage in all tanks. Not all plants will live together. Some of this is a bit trial and error.
> 
> This thread is so long i can't remember what was or wasn't covered, but I'm fairly sure lighting was discussed. I'm not going into all that again.
> 
> Excel is a liquid carbon supplement. I won't use it. It is a chemical, we discussed this toxic stuff in another thread, here:
> http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/aquarium-plants/does-api-co2-booster-affect-nitrifying-105102/


ok i think i may skip out on the CO2. i was told that using a paintball DIY setup (which was the only one i was considering) was not going to be sufficient. if my fish can provide enough to get the kind of growth your tanks have then ill be happy  since you have those results without CO2 then i am guessing i can as well if i can be as awesome as you. lighting i may buy just one more to spread the light evenly. we discussed that before in this thread. the front of my tank isnt getting much lighting, at least on the surface, so i may do that.


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