# fungus, pinned fin on gourami



## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

New tank is going through its ammonia spike, so I have been very diligent on water changes every day. Which is how I noticed this change in BoyCathy. I thought he had a lump on his gill at yesterday's water change and made a mental note to keep an eye on it. Today it's worse and his fin is pinned. He is still acting normal and even felt my fingers with his feelers earlier while I was on the phone. I looked online and it doesn't look like any of the symptoms of the common problems. I have kanaplex, jungle cure all in one tabs, aq salt and epsom salt if any of those will help. Right now he's freaking in his little cup while Cathy looks for a way out for him. 

Oh yea, and his belly is whiter than usual. I also added Nutrafin cycle bacteria to help bring the nitrites and ammonia down. 

1. Size of tank? 10 gallons

2. Water parameters
a. Ammonia? between .25 and .50 ppm but have been monitoring this and doing daily water changes
b. Nitrite? 1.0
c. Nitrate? it's between the o ppm and .20 ppm 
d. pH, KH and GH? pH is 7.8, hardness is 75 ppm, alkalinty is 80 ppm
e. Test kit? API and Marina

3. Temperature? 79°F

4. FW (fresh water) or BW (brackish)? FW

5. How long the aquarium has been set up? Going on 2 weeks now

6. What fish do you have? How many are in your tank? How big are they? How long have you had them?

2 adult honey gourami

7. Were the fish placed under quarantine period (minus the first batch from the point wherein the tank is ready to accommodate the inhabitants)?

This guy was the first

8. a. Any live plants? Fake plants? Both
b. Sand, gravel, barebottom? Gravel
c. Rocks, woods, fancy decors? Any hollow decors? clay pots and wood

9. a. Filtration? Marina slim 15 HOB
b. Heater? Not right now, the summer has been keeping it pretty stable and safe in the high 70's

10. a. Lighting schedule? What lights are used? pole light on canopy, on anywhere up to 10 hrs per day
b. Any sunlight exposure? How long? No

11. a. Water change schedule? Daily since it was set up 
b. Volume of water changed? about 4 gallons at a time (?)
c. Well water, tap water, RO water? conditioned tap
d. Water conditioner used? Aqueon
e. Frequency of gravel/sand (if any) vacuumed? Daily 

12. Foods? Frozen brine shrimp, frozen bloodworms, Omega one micro pellets, Marina flakes and Tetra flakes
How often are they fed? Once a day (except for today)

13. a. Any abnormal signs/symptoms? Nope
b. Appearance of poop? Not really, maybe a little bit of white stringy poop but it was dark and I had an appointment to attend so I didn't really pay attention
c. Appearance of gills? lump on one

14. a. Have you treated your fish ahead of diagnosis? Not yet. 
b. What meds were used?

15. Insert photos of fish in question and full tank shot if necessary.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I don't really see the bump. Is it behind the gill above his ventral/feelers? The little white spot in the second pic?


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

Yes. I think it's septicemia since the tank is all ammonia-y and there are nitrites. So he is acclimating to a small q tank now I added a touch of kanaplex based on what others online are suggesting. I have a strong suspicion it's because of the water params.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

It looks more like it could be Lympho. Septicemia or do you mean Saprolengia which is the fungus. Septicemia is a blood infection and you don't normally see pimple/bumps to go with it.


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

It doesn't seem like saprolengia- it's not fuzzy. After posting the "fungus" I realise it's not fungus like at all and it showed up quickly, his new tank has been running for 2 weeks and is pretty clean! It's like a little bump. He also has a white belly which I read is a common symptom of ammonia and nitrite poisoning (which I definitely detected). 
And with lympho I can't see how he would have gotten it in a clean tank. I do daily water changes and his old tank was pretty clean too. 

The only thing I can think of, since I had him for over a month now and anything wrong can not be blamed on the store), is that the new tank (new tank syndrome) is getting him.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Okay, everything is in the water whether you like it or not; bacteria, fungi, viruses (parasites are the only exceptions) so it doesn't matter if your tank is "clean" or not, everything is in there waiting for an opportunity to attack your fish. This is why it's essentially to keep fish as least stressed as possible, the white stomach is just like betta's; they pale up when stressed out and the stomach/chin area is what pales first before their body/fin color pales if they're too stressed. So it's quite easy for him and the girl to become infected with anything.

At this point, don't cross contaminate if possible, disinfect hoses/bucket/nets between use between the tanks if possible. You can just use boiling water for nets and bucket/container and the hose can be stuck in there if possible. You can use Rubbing Alcohol and then Bleach (NOT at the same time >.<) to fully disinfect if you feel the need.

Lympho is the easiest to get and transmit since it's a virus and there are no cures for it, only preventatives (vaccines, but our fish are too small and not worth the money)


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

Is powder oxygen bleach okay to use to disinfect?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Not sure! I've always used clorox bleach in liquid form. I would assume so though. Just make sure it's 1Bleach:19Water to get a 5% solution  you can do a quick google search to make sure though.


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

Thanks


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

I cleaned his water and added more kanaplex. I got a better look at his issue too, he is keeping his pectoral pinned and swimming quite well without it. He is active and eating, he has lost his lovely coloring though because of the stress. 

The lump is not on his gill but right at the part where his pectoral meets his body. It is a red lump, though not quite cauliflower shaped. 

I have added an IAL to the little tank to help boost his immunity (if it helps it helps, if not then it doesn't hurt).

I also went ahead and disinfected all the things that handled water from his tank. 

The 10g looks to be back down to 0 ppm ammonia!! WOO Does this mean nitrite is being converted? Because I ran out of strips and I cannot get a liquid kit until at least tomorrow.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Laki said:


> I cleaned his water and added more kanaplex. I got a better look at his issue too, he is keeping his pectoral pinned and swimming quite well without it. He is active and eating, he has lost his lovely coloring though because of the stress.


Why are you using KanaPlex? You can't use an Antibacterial on a Virus. That's why, when you get the Flu, they can't give you anything but you can get vaccinated against it. Antibiotics just make things worse unfortunately.



Laki said:


> The lump is not on his gill but right at the part where his pectoral meets his body. It is a red lump, though not quite cauliflower shaped.


It doesn't start off as Cauliflower shaped, it looks like a slightly larger form of ich and is usually white to pinkish red. It usually starts on the fins in a lateral fashion and can move around time to time. Unlike Ich where they are separate organisms, once Lympho infects; it infects the whole body so it can seem like the cysts are moving around but in reality, they kind of aren't. Here is a Tang with Lympho:












Laki said:


> I have added an IAL to the little tank to help boost his immunity (if it helps it helps, if not then it doesn't hurt).
> 
> I also went ahead and disinfected all the things that handled water from his tank.
> 
> The 10g looks to be back down to 0 ppm ammonia!! WOO Does this mean nitrite is being converted? Because I ran out of strips and I cannot get a liquid kit until at least tomorrow.


That's good.

If the ammonia stays at zero for more than a day, then yes. Nitrites have been converted all along though, Nitrosomonas do it immediately, but it just takes a while to build up a colony where the action is simultaneously instant.


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

I have been reading that fish can live with lympho as long as the tank is kept pristine. I have read it is like herpes virus in people in that they always have it but symptoms may not always show. If this is the case, then I can add BoyCathy back to the tank in a few days? I am reluctant to add him back but if lympho is so contagious then chances are Cathy has it too, and now the filter cartridge I was using to seed also has it. 

I have been using the kanaplex because I wasn't sure what he had at first and then I thought it was septicemia. Kana is supposed to be a blanket med so I figured it would be okay. Also, the only other med I have on hand is aq salt.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yes, you are correct. A good tank and the fish will be fine. Don't over do it on water changes though, a pristine tank doesn't mean three times weekly water changes, just calls for a nice cycled tank is all with your regular water changes!

Lympho is rarely ever fatal so you don't have to worry about it. And yes, Cathy would already have it so he can go back into the tank without a worry. It won't bounce off each other to keep reinfecting, they'll both get over it with time. It can take up to 3-5 months to go away. 

Yeah, I would not use KanaPlex as your go to med since it is antibacterial; it's going to be no go for true fungi (Columnaris is not a true fungus) and viruses. If you want to start something off, go for Methylene Blue baths first when you see something, that's really the blanket "med", it covers the basics of pretty much everything. KanaPlex is great, don't get me wrong, it's just not a good first response is all. But at least, now you know and it's okay


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

Thanks, that's comforting to know. I will put him back today if the ammonia goes back down- he will be happy to be back with her. The ammonia was .25 ppm last night a few hours after I did the water change, I noticed a metal stem in one of my plants and removed it. I added java moss and a few more small stems of java fern. I know these are not fast growing but it should help a little bit. After the metal plant was removed I added a little more conditioner as well.

It's too bad I basically gave my fish the perfect condition to get lympho :< I will order some Methalyne if I don't find it today .. I don't even know if I'm going to a pet store today though. It's such a trek :/


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Absolutely! It's a pain to have your fish sick of course, but at least it's rarely deadly so I usually don't worry about to much. You just want to try to avoid cross contamination is all. Make sure you monitor your other gouramis just to make sure. But hey, if they were sick then you don't have to worry about cross contaminating anymore! lol. Upside to everything...right? XD

Also, definitely watch his bump though, if it expands, we can consider other possibilities as well but for right now and how he's acting, it sounds too much like Lympho to be anything else.

And it's not your fault! Lympho can attach literally any fish it wants to! It doesn't wait for the immune system to be lowered like parasites or bacteria do, it just infects everything. Same thing with the Flu, healthy people can get it to, but it is easier to attack those who are less healthy, but just because you're healthy and you've got amazing body/mind, doesn't mean you can't get sick still!! So, as I was saying, it's not your fault at all!


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

It will be a pain to disinfect the stupid vacuum everytime :/ I will monitor everybody as usual. I'm pretty quick to pick up on odd things with my pets. Just this morning my cat burst into the room as soon as it was opened, bf was off getting a shower and Oliver was all meowy but more bitey than usual so then bf calls down the hallway that their water pan was upside down. They drink from a big casserole dish (a mimic of the wild drinking holes!) and somehow in their nighttime shenanigans they tipped it upside down. Oliver was super thirsty and letting me know. 

As for my fish, I will continue to blame myself but thanks for your kind words  It's like ignorance is bliss in some cases. I never had a testing kit so I never saw how this stuff fluctuates so dramatically and I never noticed my fish get sick with anything like this. Maybe it's that you have to experience everything once. My mom stopped taking care of her betta a few years ago and it got nitrite poisoning, the brown blood disease. That was probably the worst I dealt with.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Methylene Blue can cure Nitrite poisoning as well as Ammonia poisoning ^_^

If it were Ich, or Velvet, or even Fin Rot, you could blame yourself because those occur from not quarantining (at least from a non-reputable source) and poor husbandry, viruses just attack, they don't care. I don't really see a point in blaming yourself? Sh*t happens and as long as you learn from it and attend to your animals the best you can, then I don't see the point in blaming yourself for it. Maybe it's just me and I tend to have a more laid back attitude, I know everyone experiences things differently of course and we all have different personalities, but for certain things, yeah sure, go ahead and blame yourself if you want to. But for a virus that you have literally no control over, zero, zilch, nothing, I just don't see the point :-/

Anywho though, I'm sure your fish will be fantastic in a couple months ^_^ Honey's are quite the hardy little buggers!


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

You're kind. I'm not saying I'm beating myself up about it, but I accept responsibility for it. I'm over the moon that this is not something that will kill him! I'm also thrilled and cannot wait to introduce him back to the tank with Cathy. Right now his little hospital tank is outside the 20 gallon so he has been able to watch the shrimp and the 2 females left in there (who need ridiculous names too).

The folks over at reddit were giving me a hard time about BoyCathy so I have internalized that a bit. I'm fine, I am generally laid back as well because I am realistic. If you say lympho struck not due to wacky cycling parameters and not because a metal stem had found its way in there via my hand then I believe you


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Okay, good! Sorry, I just didn't want you to beat yourself up about it at all, so that makes me feel better ^_^

What were they giving you flak about??


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

It's all good. I'm a teacher so I get plenty of things thrown at me which I know not to take seriously or personally.

Oh, things like the fish is going to die in my care, I should have known better than to put him in a new tank to cycle it, I should expect to see injury and disease because of this, All non-helpful comments not having anthing to do about what I should do NOW it was all blaming me for what lead to it.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Seriously :roll: Reddit is...well, I'm not fond of them. I prefer Imgur even though it's turned into a bunch of Front Page seeking a$$es, but meh. I like that they upvote educational things like I want to make a post about common Fish Store myths so people can be educated! Of course, I can't figure out how to use Reddit so Imgur is easier for me haha!!


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

Ah! I'm the opposite because as far as my ignorant butt knows imgur is just pictures. Reddit has articles and discussions which I love to participate in. I'm currently participating in a reddit gift exchange, like a round robin gift exchange, this time with the theme of gifts for pets! It was fun buying dog toys for someone else's dogs 

So.. since you're online now I'll post this here.... Cathy might be a boy. I just went in to test ammonia and there are a few small bubble nests. I thought she was definitely a girl because, while all of them are yellows, she had a grizzle-y color and a horizontal stripe on her side. 
The 20 has 2 females because there are no bubbles. Can girls blow bubble nests? Ugh.. So much confusion about these fish! It seems Cathy and BoyCathy made a great pair, as did the 2 in the 20. All fighting ceased. BoyCathy has been the dominant bubble blower but he hasn't been in his tank for 3 or 4 days now and I have done a few water changes..


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah the horizontal stripe and color isn't indication of male/female. You have to look for an ovipositer and or the fins. Females have rounded fins and the dorsal usually doesn't go past the peduncle whereas the male may extend past and is pointed clearly. Male and female can show the horizontal stripe but even females will color up so the stripe is no longer visible. A lot of fish don't mind m/m or f/f. Many wild species of Betta will actually have two males practicing to wrap for breeding so you probably have two males that just don't mind each other because one is dominant and the other is submissive to him. 

And yes, Imgur is mostly just images with discussion in comments, but I like pictures soooo yep lol.


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

Cathy is still very submissive.. I hope he doesn't mind BoyCathy coming back.. I'm might change their names to another T & E reference as a result of this new revelation. BoyCathy is floating now in the 10. He almost jumped on the floor for goodness sakes. 

As for the dorsals, it's hard to tell with mine they all look the same :/ So maybe they're all male. The peduncle is so short on them, I was judging them on the color and bubbles.


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

So is a common symptom of lymphocystis itching? Maybe he's not itchy but his fin is now back to normal and there's a more pronounced white lump there but he is.. I don't know.. glancing off the plants like he's itchy. It's not ich as far as I can tell because there are not other rice-like spots on anybody in the tank and he only glances his lumpy fin.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Flashing? Yep, that's pretty normal.


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

Okay good, I kind of figured based on observation alone. Thanks.


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