# Algae Issues



## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

Well, I've had a small planted aquarium for over a year now, and it's booming. I just recently transferred all the plants (and bought a couple more!) to a ten gallon with better lighting, filtration, etc. I have quite a few plants, the get about 8.5 hrs a day of light, and "flourish" fertilizer whenever I remember. 

The issue I have always had with my planted aquariums is algae. Not the greenish/brownish type that slowly builds on aquarium glass either. And the three otocinclus I have in the tank won't touch it, or maybe the just can't take it out, I'm not sure. 

The algae grows in super bright green gooey mats and comes back quite quickly. It has been especially harmful to my feathery-leafed plants. I keep things maintained by removing the algae, but does anyone have a better solution? Different fish, different something else? Shrimp?

:thankyou:


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Your description sounds like cyanobacteria, but maybe brush algae, so let's positively identify what you have since methods to deal with these differ. Can you remove it easily with your fingers, and it slides off like a slimy mat?

Byron.


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## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

Byron said:


> Your description sounds like cyanobacteria, but maybe brush algae, so let's positively identify what you have since methods to deal with these differ. Can you remove it easily with your fingers, and it slides off like a slimy mat?
> 
> Byron.



Yes, it comes right off with a rub, and will float and I can grab it.


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

It may be of interest for you dealing with cyanobacteria to read over this thread http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-aquariums/blackout-35508/
I had the same issue as Hawkin last Nov and also for me, doing a full black out for few days followed by a good gravel vacuum eliminated mine for good since then (also as with Hawkin, it didn't upset my plants nor fish in this process.)
Once you've successfully battled your algae problem, I'd also suggest to dial up your lights to ~10hrs/day to help it be more balanced between your lights and fertilizer.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I would suggest that thread too, some members with good experience (not meaning me by the way) with this posted at length. I have no doubt whatsoever that it is an organics issue, as my experience related there also shows. B.


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Maybe to go into a lil more detail w/out trying to post you a book here from my experience with growing (unwillingly) several types of algae in one of my new tank....
It often then occurs when tanks are newly set up and the tanks are not established yet and/ or the needed balances is out of wack (between nutrition available, plants, light., fish).
It can then be negatively enhance by either no maintaining your filter at all; OR maintaining it too much, again its about the right balance.
It can further be negatively enhanced by the water quality; which means too much food you're giving your fish and/ or too little weekly water exchanges. The food can easly be controlled by simply feeding every 2nd day.
For your particular algae also poor water circulation in certain areas of the tank play a role.

So all these named factors must be evaluated carefully, you seeing your tank and knowing what you're doing (or not doing) can do this far better then us far away.

This particular type loves growing on the gravel and glass near the front of your tank, some people also had success taping the front of the tank 'dark' with some tape & newspaper to block out access lights; personally I wanted to remove the algae period and not upset the look of my tanks with newspapers.

When I battled mine, I brought in thick blankets and towels and covered it up entirely with lights off for 4 days. After that when I took the blankets off all spots that previously had the green slime now looked like lil gray dust bunnies. I super vacuumed ALL of my gravel which resulted in ~60-70% water change that day, refilled with conditioned water and its been gone since then.

Please let me know how I can help you best; I have walked several people through this process over the last month via PM's & posts and so far been successful (see Hawkins post being the latest "PM consultation" lol).


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

PS Maybe if you have the opportunity take a picture and post it for us; just so we can be 110% certain this IS indeed the type we're battling against


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## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

Wow!

Thanks for all the great info! I will definitely try a blackout on this! 

So the fish and plants won't be upset by this? My plants love the high light!

Unfortunately, I've already scraped the infestation today, so there's nothing to take a picture of. :|


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Kaddock said:


> Wow!
> 
> Thanks for all the great info! I will definitely try a blackout on this!
> 
> ...


What specifically is your light, by which I mean the type of tube/bulb, wattage and kelvin rating?

You need to find the source, which is organics/nutrients in excess, and the light is probably a factor.


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Sorryfor the long post prior...just wanted to hand you all info's I could :|

Like I said earlier on, you need to look at what's causing this imbalance in your tank. The blackout will eliminate it for now, but if the imbalance is not eliminated I guarantee you it'll come back (food light, water exchanges.....)

No nor plants or fish will get upset with a black out, apart from my statement feel free to read Hawkins post, no one upset there neither.

If yu have taken it off today: Go from there....Tell us about your food, lights, water changes and let's go from there to stop the cause of it for good.


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## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

I suppose it could definitely be the light... I use two sixty watt flourescent spiral bulbs in two dome lights designed for reptile tanks. I assume this is probably too much light, but the dwarf babies tears say it's not enough! I can't afford to change the lighting situation too much but I could drop the wattage to get less lumens... How do I calculate how many lumens I need? When I had the plants in a 2.5 gal, I was using 1 40 watt of the same kind, with no ill effects until a month or so before I switched to the 10 gal.

I wasn't having the cyanobacteria infestation for a very long time, and have been using these bulbs, so it must be the intensity. I have 3 otos in the tank, so the bio load is nil, and i rarely feed them anything. Since the bio load is nil, I do water changes maybe once a month in this tank. All levels (ph, GH, Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate) are checking out fine, and I will test again tonight. My tanks consistently have 40-65ish ppm on nitrate, it's our water I think.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Kaddock said:


> I suppose it could definitely be the light... I use two sixty watt flourescent spiral bulbs in two dome lights designed for reptile tanks. I assume this is probably too much light, but the dwarf babies tears say it's not enough! I can't afford to change the lighting situation too much but I could drop the wattage to get less lumens... How do I calculate how many lumens I need? When I had the plants in a 2.5 gal, I was using 1 40 watt of the same kind, with no ill effects until a month or so before I switched to the 10 gal.
> 
> I wasn't having the cyanobacteria infestation for a very long time, and have been using these bulbs, so it must be the intensity. I have 3 otos in the tank, so the bio load is nil, and i rarely feed them anything. Since the bio load is nil, I do water changes maybe once a month in this tank. All levels (ph, GH, Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate) are checking out fine, and I will test again tonight. My tanks consistently have 40-65ish ppm on nitrate, it's our water I think.


I said previously cyanobacteria is an organics issue, and you have just proven it. Nitrate at 40-65ppm is way too high. It should never exceed 20ppm, and preferably remain at 10ppm or lower. This tank is planted, correct? My tanks with large fish loads have nitrate at 5ppm, Kymmie's are zero. Nitrates should never be high in planted tanks unless they are coming from the water or the fish load. Test your water. If you use the API test kit, Regeant #2 has to be shaken 2 minutes, not 30 seconds as the instructions read, or you will get a faulty reading. Prime water conditioner detoxifies nitrates for 24-48 hours, so if the tank is balanced to begin with and you have nitrates in the tap water, Prime should handle them. This is the cause of the cyanobacteria, in the presence of light. Without addressing the nitrates, changing the light won't be a long-term solution.

Byron.


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## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

Byron,

Yes, I have been battling the nitrates for quite some time now... Ammonia and Nitrite are at zero, but the Nitrates are ever present... I will try to get some nitrate detox. Two minutes huh? Weird, I will do that when I test tonight, and let you know.


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Ok, several factors I also wanna comment on here: The light can be exchanges with a proper daylight rated at 6500K from Lowes or Homedepot or Walmart for like $5 for a 2-pack; which hopefully shouldn't break your bank, that'll take care of the light issue.

What you say about Nitrates and water changes...You have GOT TO do w/c weekly once a week and then about 40% of the tank volume usuing a proper water conditioner (eg Prime). This 1x a month is just not cutting it and most likly the source of your problem right there.
Apart from how much you feed, your fish still have to pee & poop and that is what needs removing by w/c and 1x month is just not enough sorry and that's also the reason you're not getting your Nitrates under control and you will not get them under control until you change your habit of w/c.

I don't mean to sound harsh or anything but I wanna help you and unless you change how you treat the tank this won't improve to be honest with you.


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## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

Angel079 said:


> Ok, several factors I also wanna comment on here: The light can be exchanges with a proper daylight rated at 6500K from Lowes or Homedepot or Walmart for like $5 for a 2-pack; which hopefully shouldn't break your bank, that'll take care of the light issue.


Hmmm 6500k would be a 15 watt bulb of the type I'm using, which would leave my tank dim and gloomy... Not to mention that my baby tears don't seem to get enough light even with the 60watts... I don't understand how this can work. 



Angel079 said:


> What you say about Nitrates and water changes...You have GOT TO do w/c weekly once a week and then about 40% of the tank volume usuing a proper water conditioner (eg Prime). This 1x a month is just not cutting it and most likly the source of your problem right there.
> Apart from how much you feed, your fish still have to pee & poop and that is what needs removing by w/c and 1x month is just not enough sorry and that's also the reason you're not getting your Nitrates under control and you will not get them under control until you change your habit of w/c.


I'll will start more frequent changes, but I don't want you to think that the load on the aquarium is excessive: this tank is less than a month old!

I will test, do a water change, remove as much algae etc as possible, and let you know how things go. You mentioned in a previous post that I should kick up the light to 10 hrs a day once this is controlled... Won't that just encourage algae to return?

Also, I just bought another gallon of stress coat... Does Seachem Prime do all the chores of Stress Coat, plus detoxify nitrate? I know Stress Coat does heavy metals, but I don't think nitrate.


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Ok, I have these "dim and gloomy" daylight bulbs from Lows over my tanks and be my guest to check it out, its anything but dim tank and the baby tears are thriving in 3 of my tank set ups like crazy right now, one of which has fluorescent on it that avg 0.5 watt per gallon.
Dwarf Baby tears often then don't thrive well when buried into gravel rather then attached to a screen or for lack of nutritions of which plants need some 17 different once.
Trust me I'm by no means trying to fool you hear I know my stuff if its coming down to planted tanks 

I can't comment on the load as I do not know what your tank size is and exactly how many of what fish lives in there. Lemme put it this way, my 45g has 4 Rummy nose and 5 Albino Corys and gets a weekly w/c of ~30-40% right now.

Algae grows in unbalanced tank set ups if you turn your light up or down will not matter for as long as all other factors in your tank are not in balance with the light. I have some tanks run 9hrs and other 13hrs and neither one got algae growing there.

Prime is your very best bet as it does all chlorine, metals, ammonia etc etc etc; all other conditioners I know of and have known over the years only do one part or another but not both.


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## stephanieleah (Oct 31, 2009)

hi Kaddock

Just wanted to jump in here and 1. say welcome because I haven't seen you around here before and 2. say that Angel079 and Byron are my personal plant god/goddess. So whatever they say, I won't argue. I just saw in my tank yesterday two new types of algae that have started to break out and I think one may be cyanobacteria. I'm just leaving it there because it's a small piece and I know that removing it is just a temporary solution. I'm watching it and seeing what happens because when I want it to be gone, I know what to do. Post about it on this forum!!! And I'm already experimenting with fertilizer dosages and lighting for other reasons so I'm slowly bringing my tank back into balance. I hope you find balance too : )

But the main thing I wanted to say is I was laughing my butt off when I read your signature

:-D


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## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

Angel079 said:


> Ok, I have these "dim and gloomy" daylight bulbs from Lows over my tanks and be my guest to check it out, its anything but dim tank and the baby tears are thriving in 3 of my tank set ups like crazy right now, one of which has fluorescent on it that avg 0.5 watt per gallon.
> Dwarf Baby tears often then don't thrive well when buried into gravel rather then attached to a screen or for lack of nutritions of which plants need some 17 different once.
> Trust me I'm by no means trying to fool you hear I know my stuff if its coming down to planted tanks


I'm not doubting you, just confused about lighting I guess! I will definitely try the 6500k.



Angel079 said:


> I can't comment on the load as I do not know what your tank size is and exactly how many of what fish lives in there. Lemme put it this way, my 45g has 4 Rummy nose and 5 Albino Corys and gets a weekly w/c of ~30-40% right now.'


It is a ten gallon with 3 tiny otocinclus in it.

Thanks for all this info, I will definitely be trying a few things over the next several days.


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Rather then repeating...this may help you understand better http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/aquarium-plants/basic-guide-natural-planted-aquarium-part-34862/
Plants simply need something similar (or as close to) as the natural set up they'd be in, which in tanks is achieved with full spectrum lights ranging from 5-6500Kelvin (or a mix of both where possible) and a proper wattage (which most folks, like 99.99% in freshwater have too much wattage rather then too lil which will indeed melt plants).

Here's a shot from my 2g, this is stocked with a Bright Effects daylight bulb @ 6500K and 7w (being CFL that's ~30watts) but its neither dim nor too bright and works fine for the plants.

Between Light- Nutrition- Fish- Water exchange....that's where your tank needs to be balanced.

PS its MUCHHH easier to actually balance a larger tank and maintain a larger tank then a small one; so upgrading may be a option to you down the Rd :-D


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## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

OK so I've been checking out light bulbs, do you think two of these would be good for replacing my current ones (which I looked up and they say N/A under Ks)?: Shop Bright Effects Daylight 40-Watt Replacement CFL Twist Bulb at Lowes.com

Oh btw, that tank and light fixture are the exact same ones I started my plants in! 2g right? LoL. 

Well, I did a water change, and treated with Prime. Guess what... No drop in nitrate levels. The test still came out red (and yes I shook reagent 2 for 2min). My ammonia and pH are fine, and I need a new nitrite test, but I've never had issues with nitrite, always 0 ppm. 

I've done the water change, treated with prime, scraped the bacteria again, added a bit o' flourish.

Now I need new bulbs, need to install an air pump as I notice a stagnant spot in my water circulation... 

So my only problem is nitrates. Nitrates, nitrates. Nothing makes me angrier in this hobby. I have _never_ been able to neutralize my nitrates in any of my tanks. Period. And Prime didn't help. Any other ideas? More Prime? I used 2 drops per gallon as directed. Help! I will do a black out soon, but as you said Angel, it won't matter if I don't eliminate the issues... ;-)


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## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

stephanieleah said:


> But the main thing I wanted to say is I was laughing my butt off when I read your signature
> 
> :-D


Hi Stephanie, thanks for the well wishes!


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Same as I got here, just I don't have the twisted one's I bought the normal tube looking one's you see in the picture. Two - Depends on the size tank you have there!? Like on my 10g I have 2x7w of the one's you see here (otherwise same specs as your link).

Airpump...careful there I thought you had planted tank? That's contra productive for a planted tank as it'll drive out your CO2.

Nitrates are built up out of leaf litter, food and fish waste; only if your bacteria is outta wack for one reason or another will it not break down you NO3 the way it should - How much in mg/l or ppm is your reading?
This can only be caused if you're not doing good enough WEEKLY w/c and / or mess with your filter pads/ sponges - Do you leave these alone???
And yea if you black out now it'll prop stop it for a few days and then grow back unless we figure out what's affecting it.


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## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

Angel079 said:


> Same as I got here, just I don't have the twisted one's I bought the normal tube looking one's you see in the picture. Two - Depends on the size tank you have there!? Like on my 10g I have 2x7w of the one's you see here (otherwise same specs as your link).


OK great, I have the ten gallon, so I'll go for 7w+ish. 



Angel079 said:


> Airpump...careful there I thought you had planted tank? That's contra productive for a planted tank as it'll drive out your CO2.


OK scratch that, no air pump. :doh!:



Angel079 said:


> Nitrates are built up out of leaf litter, food and fish waste; only if your bacteria is outta wack for one reason or another will it not break down you NO3 the way it should - How much in mg/l or ppm is your reading?
> This can only be caused if you're not doing good enough WEEKLY w/c and / or mess with your filter pads/ sponges - Do you leave these alone???
> And yea if you black out now it'll prop stop it for a few days and then grow back unless we figure out what's affecting it.


OK, I am confused yet again! A: I've removed all leaf litter that I could find B: I hardly ever feed the fish, as there is plenty of algae C: how much poo could 3 inch long fish really make in less than a month of living in this tank? So it must be D: my bacteria is out of whack! 

So, it's hard to tell from these color charts, but I would say still 30-40+ppm on the nitrates. I have just done a water change and will keep them up, and the filter was seriously clogged, so I rinsed with luke warm water to get the sludge out... Should I not do that? I have to to make the filter run, even if it does make the bacteria upset.This is the first time I've touched it though. 

How often do you recommend a carbon switch?


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Yea I'd then only get 1 or 2 lower watt one's.

Well see now that's why I told ya what causes it, you're at your tank not me...so you know best what's going on 

Honestly I'd not do a blackout on this tank at all for a while. You say "1 months living there" so this tank really only been running for ~4 weeks? Yes your bacteria is outta wack because its not fully established yet! So keep up weekly or 2x week w/c at around 40% until such point your NO3 comes back farrr less or 0 permanent. 
The bacteria you HAD established by washing it under tap water you killed it. IFFF your filter is really clogged and you have to clean it, so that when you do a w/c and then clean the pads in the tank water ONLY. And if you have 2 pads or 1 pad 1 wheel - Only clean 1 at a time and next week the other; but really only then when its near clogged not every week and ONLY in tank water so you won't kill the bacteria each time.

Is your tank having live plants? Then no carbon at all...If you don't have live plants; carbon really only works so long and generally used if a tank is medicated for some reason; i'd only then exchange pads when they fall apart and not exchange carbon 1x month or so that's silly IMO.

But that right here explains your issue: Careful how you clean the filter, do weekly or 2x w/c and only feed 1x day or every 2nd day and this algae will soon start subsiding as your bacteria builds up.


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## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

Well, the original water was from another tank with relatively stable water in it, and conditioned with stress coat and ph neutralizer and then set up for a week with the plants in it and good water circulation and (what I thought was) good light. I was adding stress zyme and flourish once a week or so. So I'm sure it's still a bit rocky in there, how long should I expect it to take to balance out? 

I'll make sure to rinse my sponges better next time, and will definitely take out the carbon and do weekly water changes. When a sponge is replaced, would it be best to add stress zyme to speed bacterial growth?

I will let you know what the results of my experiments are over here. 

I curious as to why the Prime did nothing however... Why no change in nitrate levels at all? :-?


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## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

Those bulbs look like they'll be pretty good. Just make sure that your hood has enough room for them, as they're sorta chunky.

Not sure if it works in the same way, but often chemicals that neutralize stuff will still result in whatever it is showing up on your tests. So it could be that the Prime is working perfectly but you're still seeing the detoxified nitrate on your test kit.

Remind me: what's the nitrate reading of the water coming out of your tap?


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

On a side note, what for are you using ph neutralizer in this tank??? These chems cause permanent swings to your fish and that's worst for their health then leaving the water as it is from your tap from the start.
I don't think adding Stress zyme will hurt....but i also doubt how much it'll do for ya as far as bacteria growth; I pers do not use it.

If you read right here, the very last Q&A on the bottom of the page about Nitrate Seachem. Prime FAQ To me that sounds that Prime is doing to Nitrate exactly the same then it does to ammonia - Meaning its not going to magically disappear but get's transformed into a not so harmful form to fish and this form will STILL make you get readings. (Makes lots sense to me)


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## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

Angel079 said:


> On a side note, what for are you using ph neutralizer in this tank??? These chems cause permanent swings to your fish and that's worst for their health then leaving the water as it is from your tap from the start.


I will try to get a hold of some peat moss so I won't need to lower the pH anymore... Also going to home depot today for other fun supplies!



I think things are coming together! I did another water change today, added more prime, sucked out all the cyanobacteria I could find. It wasn't as thick this time though, seems like it's pulling back! I'm crossing my fingers on this one. I just added three Black Skirted Tetras today, and they seem to be enjoying the setup. 


Here it is in all it's cell phone photo glory, LoL, you might be wondering what's going on in the bottom left corner... yes that is a bird foot in formaldehyde :twisted:.


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Neat tank!!!! You'll often find it subside once the tank is stable and starts establishing; patience is really rule no 1 in the tank world


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## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

Well, everything is coming together on this tank now! I have a much lower nitrate reading and the cyanobacteria is almost non-existent now. Everything seems to be doing great! I think next I will add some smaller substrate for the dwarf baby tears to root into... Any ideas on that? 

I was also wondering: What is the fury black stuff that grows slowly around the outer edges of aging plant leaves? I don't mind it, but it's definitely not attractive. Anyway to eliminate this stuff?

:yourock:

Thanks to you all for all input, I am very happy with my tank now, and have been keeping all of my tanks a little healthier thanks to the urging provided here!


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Kaddock said:


> for the dwarf baby tears to root into... Any ideas on that?


My pers 2 cents based of my dwarf baby tears: get a piece window screen, mesh of some type and sew it on there (carefully by hand not with the sewing machine ;-)) and it'll best root down that way.



Kaddock said:


> I was also wondering: What is the fury black stuff that grows slowly around the outer edges of aging plant leaves? I don't mind it, but it's definitely not attractive. Anyway to eliminate this stuff?


Googel image results for "black brush algae" if that's what you have too, read here(same issue so I don't repeat myself) http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/aquarium-plants/question-brown-algae-36702/


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## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

Thanks Angel, I read through that article... So it probably a balance of light/fish/co2 issue? Well, the two 5000k 9w's (40w equivalent) are what I'm using now, I have three black skirted tetras and 3 oto's in there, so I doubt if they do much for the co2 level, correct me if I'm wrong... So perhaps I need more fish to balance all this out?


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

That's in the 10g right? And you run these lights 8.5 hrs/day?

I think also here the issue is you just recently set this up; so not only is everything bland new and has to level itself out for one, but also yea the fish could me a lil too lil CO2....do you know your pH & KH so we can determine the CO2 ?

And you do weekly w/c right?

What get's me is that you have more then one type algae going, or better said (and correct me if I recall info incorrectly) you have one, battle it it subsides and another one starts.

What's the amount of live pants in relation to yur tank size and what/ how often do you use ferts for these?


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## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

Angel079 said:


> That's in the 10g right? And you run these lights 8.5 hrs/day?


Yes a little less than 10hr a day




Angel079 said:


> I think also here the issue is you just recently set this up; so not only is everything bland new and has to level itself out for one, but also yea the fish could me a lil too lil CO2....do you know your pH & KH so we can determine the CO2 ?


The black algae has been there for a long time, just barely growing on the edge of my anubia... it has spread a bit, now with hairs sparsely over the leaves, and has spread to a java fern too. pH is 7.0, KH is about 3...



Angel079 said:


> What's the amount of live pants in relation to yur tank size and what/ how often do you use ferts for these?


Yes on the weekly w/c, and I add flourish on each water change. You can see the amount of plants I have on this pic:


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

KH 3 pH 7 resulting in a CO2 of 10mg/l which is just about a lil on the low side so a lil extra with Flourish Excel daily wouldn't hurt (I'd do half dose of Excel was this my tank).

One thing that you said: You add flourish each w/c...what water conditioner do you use? I myself just recently learned that using Prime will partly also detoxify Ferts if added right after/ with the w/c...so adding it 1-2 days later would be much more sufficient.

When you hold the leaf between you fingers can you rub it off and suck it out with the next w/c?


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## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

Angel079 said:


> KH 3 pH 7 resulting in a CO2 of 10mg/l which is just about a lil on the low side so a lil extra with Flourish Excel daily wouldn't hurt (I'd do half dose of Excel was this my tank).
> 
> One thing that you said: You add flourish each w/c...what water conditioner do you use? I myself just recently learned that using Prime will partly also detoxify Ferts if added right after/ with the w/c...so adding it 1-2 days later would be much more sufficient.
> 
> When you hold the leaf between you fingers can you rub it off and suck it out with the next w/c?


Flourish Excel? OK, I will get that instead of just flourish then. 

I use prime water conditioner, I will try waiting a couple days, good idea. 

And no, I can't rub it off. It is firmly attached, and even scraping with a finger nail does little more than fragment the hairs a little, not the rooted area.

EDIT: Should I still use flourish along with the excel? It seems like the excel description is saying it only adds CO2, is that right?


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

No not instead; this will NOT replace your liquid plant food. Excel is a liquid Carbon form to help with your low CO2 there; the plant food you'd use ~1xweek the Excel you'd then does every day.
Here's links of what it is:
This is the normal plant food https://www.petsolutions.com/Default.aspx?ItemID=10105130
This is the Excel https://www.petsolutions.com/Default.aspx?ItemID=10104530

See that's the part no one talks about with using Prime....Since I never used liquid ferts till just recently (cause I didn't need to at all with the source water) I didn't know that part neither. So yea I for example do my w/c on Sat AM and then dose the ferts in that very tank on Mon AM.

Once you've changed these 2 things (adding liquid ferts later on and adding the Excel daily) I'd give that about 2 weeks; whenever then you do a w/c see if that BB stuff comes rubbing off....it sorta will still be somewhat attached when dieing off buy more like a dust bunny.
I'd try the Excel on half dose for 2-3 weeks; see what happens (keeping up other regular maintenance) and if you don't see a significant impact of the BB falling off/ reducing i'd go full dose (thou I doub't that'll be necessary)


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## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

Okay thanks! By the way, what's the calculation for CO2?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

After seeing your latest photo I read through this thread again. I don't see any algae issues. I would therefore not recommend using Excel. In my opinion it will do more harm than good because it will unbalance the nutrients again. This is a relatively new tank, less than 2 months, and algae of various types usually appear during the first 2-3 months. The best action is to work on balancing the biological processes in the tank, not to keep fiddling with this and that.

Anubias is notorious for attracting brush algae. I always have it on this plant, but it never goes anywhere so I leave it alone. I strongly suggest you do the same.

There still may be too much light. But before getting into that, what is your nitrate reading now?

Byron.


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Morning Kaddock here's what I use (there's many different one's on the web to chose from, but I find that easiest as it'll give you the color chart below)
Measuring CO2 levels in a Planted Tank


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Byron said:


> This is a relatively new tank, less than 2 months





Kaddock said:


> Well, I've had a small planted aquarium for over a year now......


Hi Byron, just wanted to dig up the OP for you again. I don't find this tank to classify for new set up and BB is well treatable with CO2 as you know.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Angel079 said:


> Hi Byron, just wanted to dig up the OP for you again. I don't find this tank to classify for new set up and BB is well treatable with CO2 as you know.


In post #15 he says this particular tank is less than a month old, so it is now less than two months by my reckoning. And notwithstanding, I see no algae issues in the last photo, so again using Excel is probably going to be detrimental.


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## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

Byron said:


> After seeing your latest photo I read through this thread again. I don't see any algae issues. I would therefore not recommend using Excel. In my opinion it will do more harm than good because it will unbalance the nutrients again. This is a relatively new tank, less than 2 months, and algae of various types usually appear during the first 2-3 months. The best action is to work on balancing the biological processes in the tank, not to keep fiddling with this and that.
> 
> Anubias is notorious for attracting brush algae. I always have it on this plant, but it never goes anywhere so I leave it alone. I strongly suggest you do the same.
> 
> ...


Uh oh! Split opinions... I won't be able to afford the excel at the moment anyway, so I take your advice by default Byron. ;-)

My nitrates are finally testing at 10ppmish, which I know isn't great, but it is much better than the dark red readings I was getting before. Hopefully with the water changes it will keep going down. As stated before, cyanobacteria is almost all gone, so things are balancing out it seems. The brush algae has just recently started booming in the last week though. That picture was taken over a week ago, but here is some detail of the anubia now:










I got the lowest bulbs that they had at home depot which were 9w 5k, I couldn't find the 7w 6.5k ones anywhere. 



Angel079 said:


> Morning Kaddock here's what I use (there's many different one's on the web to chose from, but I find that easiest as it'll give you the color chart below)
> Measuring CO2 levels in a Planted Tank


Thanks Angel, this is very helpful, after reading through this page though, it does seem like CO2 would unbalance my pH which is currently perfect. I think I will wait to start experimenting with this until I have those nitrates non-existent... Honestly the level they're at right now seems miraculous to me!


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## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

Oh and just to clear the air, the plants in the tank are from my smaller tank which was planted for over a year. I used the water from this tank and some from another semi-stable tank plus some new water when starting this tank, so it had some bacteria already aged in it I would assume, but the filter hadn't been used in a while and needed to stabilize. Hope that is clearer.

Another question on the recommendation from angel about the baby tears. I have some black plastic mesh with holes about the size of a fruit fly which is very flexible... Would this work for the sewing surface? And I assume after that I would bury the mesh under the gravel and just leave the foliage exposed? How much extra mesh should I use around a little two inch cluster of tears? Thanks!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Nitrates at 10 is fine. Most aquarists consider 20ppm the limit, not so much because of harm to the fish but more because the lower the nitrate remains the less likely there will be problems related to organics. Not guaranteed, but better. If you had more plants, you would see nitrate at 5 or even zero, but you don't have enough plants yet.

Moving water from established tanks does nothing good and could be bad. That may have contributed to the nitrate issue and the algae and cyanobacteria which is organics based. Bacteria colonize surfaces, so moving filter media, gravel, wood, plants from existing established tanks will transfer the bacteria. Water will also ring ammonia and nitrite with it which you don't want beyond what will naturally occur in the new tank from the fish and such.

I'm not sure what all the fuss over carbon/CO2 is about, but in this tank with the plants you have you do not need a carbon supplement. And as I said before, messing around with that is going to throw off the biological equilibrium again, which means unstable water quality/parameters and algae. Continue with a weekly pwc, add more plants, light sound fine now though the period may have to be reduced if algae persist, that's it. Let the tank settle.

Byron.


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Kaddock said:


> Another question on the recommendation from angel about the baby tears. I have some black plastic mesh with holes about the size of a fruit fly which is very flexible... Would this work for the sewing surface? And I assume after that I would bury the mesh under the gravel and just leave the foliage exposed? How much extra mesh should I use around a little two inch cluster of tears? Thanks!


That'll work as well.... I had found (which is purely pers laziness preference) if I add a flat rock to the bottom of the mesh and attach that all together I won't have to fiddle around getting it int he gravel and it'll root itself down.
I have tested both set ups with room around the actual plant and w/out and either case its rooting itself down nicely. Just gotta stay away with the gravel vac from it ;-) the root system is about as "big" as a hair.


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

@Byron the "fuss" as you expressed it is the simple known fact that A) BB growth is enhanced by low CO2 (which is a fact in this tank, link provided above, you can cross check) and B) Another known fact which you should recall yourself is that Excel works in eliminating BB

On a side note as you may or may not recall; my own 55g that had 5 diff algae growing at one point was more then a brand new set up to say the least and my "messing around" worked just excellent in stabilizing this tank rather then letting it go down the drain entirely ;-)


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## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

Angel079 said:


> @Byron the "fuss" as you expressed it is the simple known fact that A) BB growth is enhanced by low CO2 (which is a fact in this tank, link provided above, you can cross check) and B) Another known fact which you should recall yourself is that Excel works in eliminating BB


Angel, I do plan on eventually trying the excel, but how much of a drop in pH should I expect from daily use of this? I added peat to get my pH down to 7, so perhaps just removing the peat and adding the excel would keep things stable as far as pH goes?

And I am concerned about the BB, as it is spreading a lot now. It's on my feathery plants (which you know are almost impossible to clean without injuring) and it's also on my sword and my filter as well... Seems like it's going nuts! 

I appreciate both of your feedback, and take all of this into consideration. I am going to observe for another week or more, then perhaps start adding excel.


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

What are you housing int he tank that makes you need peat (sorry if you told me before and I forgot).

I use 1ml Excel on my 10g and the source water is pH6 and KH nadda and the tank measures pH 7 and KH 2 (if measured after w/c) and 3 the other days. which is the same test results I had in that tank from before the excel use.


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## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

Angel079 said:


> That'll work as well.... I had found (which is purely pers laziness preference) if I add a flat rock to the bottom of the mesh and attach that all together I won't have to fiddle around getting it int he gravel and it'll root itself down.
> I have tested both set ups with room around the actual plant and w/out and either case its rooting itself down nicely. Just gotta stay away with the gravel vac from it ;-) the root system is about as "big" as a hair.


So something like this?: 










And I use the peat to lower my GH and pH. I use it in all of my tanks, it works great. I keep my pH around 7 and GH <10 this way.


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

LOL nice drawing  
I find it easier/ prettier to use smaller rock & 4 of them (which really any half inch pebble will do) and attach them to th corners to hold it down....lemme try finding a good pic of mine I can upload you here.
Alternatively you can put it on the mesh and attach it do a piece driftwood, I done that too looks real nice (if you don't have no adult cory cats come in at night tearing it up anyway).

The peat works, no doubt about that, used it all the time for my killi breeding....Was just courious what fish you house there that you have the need to lower.


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Here's 2 semi-decent shots of mine in the 55g...still had looked a lil dirty at that point back in Dec as I had just overcome cyanobacteria (algae...was pretty nasty to say the least).


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Kaddock said:


> Angel, I do plan on eventually trying the excel, but how much of a drop in pH should I expect from daily use of this? I added peat to get my pH down to 7, so perhaps just removing the peat and adding the excel would keep things stable as far as pH goes?
> 
> And I am concerned about the BB, as it is spreading a lot now. It's on my feathery plants (which you know are almost impossible to clean without injuring) and it's also on my sword and my filter as well... Seems like it's going nuts!
> 
> I appreciate both of your feedback, and take all of this into consideration. I am going to observe for another week or more, then perhaps start adding excel.


Algae becomes a nuisance with too intense light and/or too long a light period. If the light is reduced (fewer hours per day) and more plants are added, brush algae will not be an issue. The siesta light scheme might do the trick. You can expect to have it on the Anubias, or on wood; that is quite common. I have it in my 90g on the wood, but rarely does it venture onto plants, and then ironically only on the leaves that are alreading decaying at the base.

While it is true that Excel sometimes has an adverse effect on brush algae, it is better to handle the cause so it won't return. Plus, this is still a young tank, and things are not yet settled.

Byron.


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