# possible to have too many bottom dwellers?



## Aquarius Keeper (Sep 22, 2008)

My 30g will be ready for fish next week and I've had a lot of time to think about what I want...

The one fish I have no doubt about is a kuhli loach (or three, they do best in groups, right?) - although I've also some interest in cory cats (also best as three or more?) and probably an upside-down catfish as well...

... so that's a lot of bottom dwellers. Is it possible to have too many? The tank is a 30h (i.e. it has exactly the same floor space of a 20h -24x12) so it might get crowded down there pretty quickly.

Is it possible to overstock one "level" of the tank even if you're not overstocking in terms of total gallons?


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## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

In that size tank I would probably just stick with one type of bottom dweller...either kuhlis or cories. They do best in groups of 6 or more. Not sure about the upside down cat. Maybe someone else can help you there.


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## Aquarius Keeper (Sep 22, 2008)

well, if I had to choose between kuhlis and corys, I'd go with the loaches.

But the corys do a lot of good actually cleaning the bottom, right? whereas the loaches just live there? So I'd have to find something else to help keep the place clean?


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## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

Cories are scavengers. They'll eat any food that makes it to the bottom but that's it. They don't eat everything that falls to the bottom of the tank.


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## Aquarius Keeper (Sep 22, 2008)

yeah, that's what I meant - someone to eat the scraps so the bacteria can focus on the waste. I'm not really worried about algae but if it starts to bug me I can always get a few snails, no?


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## mkirby258 (Sep 10, 2008)

Loaches will tear up the snails. That is one reason why a lot of people get loaches (for their snail problem). Not sure about cories


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## Aquarius Keeper (Sep 22, 2008)

I've heard that loaches eat snails, but I guess I assumed that meant small pond snails - will they go after those big monster snails too?


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## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

Nope. Kuhli loaches don't really do much at all when it comes to snails. Mine definitely don't touch my Malaysian trumpet snails or my mystery snails, and they even ignore the couple of pond snails that found their way into the tank. Kuhlis, like cories, will scavenge for food from the bottom of the tank. The kuhlis are *very* active fish, but are really only active at night so you might benefit from some moonlight LED's. My cories in a different tank are out more during the day.

Depending on your decor, the upside-down cat might not really be much of a bottom dweller. If you've got sufficient rocks and driftwood, they prefer to hang out upside down underneath overhangs. They'll even hang out under plant leaves, hugging the bottoms of the leaves upside-down. 

I wouldn't get both cories and kuhlis though, as then you'll definitely be pretty cramped for space on the floor of that tank.


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## qpc68 (Jul 14, 2008)

Kuhlii loaches won't go after snails. Yo-Yo's will devour snails however. And they're awesome fish.

Unless you have inadequate cover, if you have only 1 upside down catfish you will never see him. I literally had to pull my tank apart twice to make sure he was still alive after weeks of him disappearing. Added 2 more, and now they come out and swim around, day or night. Awesome fish, but I would suggest at least 3.


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## Aquarius Keeper (Sep 22, 2008)

I just got an upside-down catfish and he seems pretty adventurous so far.

I think I'm going to hold off on the cories until I'm ready for a betta setup... that could be a couple months, but I've heard cories and bettas do well together. I want some cories even more than I want a betta, so I'm definitely motivated to make it happen... I saw this awesome giant glass bowl at a world market last week - with heavy-duty planting and a good filter, it might be perfect...

In my 30g, I'll let the kuhlis and my Ctenopoma acutirostre have the floor, and the upside-down catfish can do what it likes...


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## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hmm I didn't realize that you were planning on having the kuhlis and leaf fish together. I would think the leaf fish would see the kuhlis as fish-spaghetti.


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## Aquarius Keeper (Sep 22, 2008)

Really? I just read tonight that ctenopoma acutirostre and kuhlis got together especially well ... so far I haven't read anyone contradict that the leaf fish won't go after anything it can't fit into it's mouth in one bite - an adult kuhli is pretty close in length to an adult ctenopoma, right? I agree, a full grown leaf fish and juvenile kuhlis might be risky. (besides, for the next few months at least, all of my loaches will be significantly bigger than my ctenopoma)

I don't know though, this is just from the research I've done in the last 24 hours - they're a bit of a mystery fish...
btw - thanks for the classification ctenopoma acutirostre - that opened up many doors of info...!


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## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

An adult kuhli is 3-4", while a full-grown leaf fish is about 6", but kuhlis are skinny little guys.

I'm not saying they'll *definitely* eat the kuhlis, so you should certainly consider the advice of those who've kept the fish together with more weight than mine.

I actually tried a similar experiment recently. I have a group of 5 kuhlis living with a pair of golden wonder killifish, which are also very predatory. These fish eat guppies like nobody's business and tried to eat some of my kribensis fry that were about half as big as they were, until the little kribs turned around and explained that they weren't willing to get eaten. However, the killies have completely ignored the loaches even though they could easily eat them if they wanted to.


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## Aquarius Keeper (Sep 22, 2008)

Well, generally I agree that a 6" predator could easily make an snack of a 3" Kuhli - but from what I've read about Ctenopoma, they eat by "vacuuming" a whole organism into their giant mouth, and a Kuhli would be too long to fit all at once, so wouldn't be targeted as a meal. Again, I could be wrong about that.

In any case, if as an adult my leaf fish becomes belligerent in the community, I'll move him (her?) to a more appropriate habitat. I hope I don't have to though.

This is off topic, but is it true that Killifish only live a year?


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

hi
yeah the life span is short.i think it's to do with the way the natural
drying of the streams they originate from.


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## kritas (Feb 29, 2008)

I would say that the Kuhli's are much too fast to be caught by nearly any other fish. Have you seen those guys move? It is highly unlikely they will be fish food, so I think you're safe to introduce the two species to each other.


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## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

Only annual killifish live for a year or less. There are non-annual species from permanent bodies of water that live for several years. The golden wonder lives for 3-4 years on average.


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## Aquarius Keeper (Sep 22, 2008)

kritas said:


> I would say that the Kuhli's are much too fast to be caught by nearly any other fish. Have you seen those guys move? It is highly unlikely they will be fish food, so I think you're safe to introduce the two species to each other.


Yeah, totally, I just picked up three today and they moved like lightening trying to get away from the net.

I'm worried about them though because they are really tiny ones (the smallest I've seen) and I have medium sized gravel which they are actually managing to squeeze inbetween/under/into in certain places - I'm afraid they'll be buried alive...


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## kritas (Feb 29, 2008)

Is your tank planted? Is there a need for gravel? If not, then change over to sand, as it will make the kuhli's happy. As you probably already know, loaches are bottom dwellers. As bottom dwellers, they need a substrate the wont get scratched on trying to dig, which unfortunately doesnt allow for gravel over 1.5 milimetres big. My suggestion to you would be to change to sand, unless your current financial status doesn't allow for it.

In my 55G tank, I intend to have it heavily planted, but bottom dwellers don't much allow for that now do they? So my plan is, to use eco complete and gravel on the back half of my tank, and where the open space is without plants, im going to use a dark sandy substrate, to give it that natural look of a dark waters like in the wild, as opposed to light colours like oceanic environments. That'st just an idea for you if you have plants and need the gravel to allow the to root properly.

Hope it helps


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## Aquarius Keeper (Sep 22, 2008)

I do have plants ... but I also have a shallow glass bowl buried in the gravel on one side of the tank which I've been planning to fill with sand, specifically for the loaches - they didn't have sand at the store I was at today, but they did have loaches, so I went ahead with the purcahse ... I'l give them some sand soon...


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## panamera (Jul 18, 2008)

Aquarius Keeper said:


> My 30g will be ready for fish next week and I've had a lot of time to think about what I want...
> 
> The one fish I have no doubt about is a kuhli loach (or three, they do best in groups, right?) - although I've also some interest in cory cats (also best as three or more?) and probably an upside-down catfish as well...
> 
> ...


way too many bottom feeders. stick with one type. and even with one type. any more than 3 would be way too much for a 30g. it will become a territorial battle and some will starve to death. if you have more than one type. there will be fights. and the dominant one will get the food leaving the other to once again starve.


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## Aquarius Keeper (Sep 22, 2008)

"stick with one type. and even with one type. any more than 3 would be way too much for a 30g"

I'll have to refer you to that guy who says I have to keep a minimum of six kuhli loaches if I want any loaches at all... you two can argue about it and let me know who wins. 

I have about 10 fish in the 30g so far - when I feed them, they all just eat happily, nobody bullies anybody else - I think it depends on the species... I'm trying to be pretty careful (although I did just put a ptenopoma acutirostre into a community tank, he's still practically a fry - I'll be keeping my eye on him to see how he does with other fish...)


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## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

panamera said:


> way too many bottom feeders. stick with one type. and even with one type. any more than 3 would be way too much for a 30g. it will become a territorial battle and some will starve to death. if you have more than one type. there will be fights. and the dominant one will get the food leaving the other to once again starve.


I disagree. A group of six of either species would be ideal. The loaches and cories are not at all aggressive fish, and there won't be any fights between them. They do a *lot* better in groups.

Since it is a 30g tall tank though, just in terms of general space I think only one type of bottom dweller that needs a school would be appropriate.

If you're just using a bowl for some sand, you definitely don't need a ton of it, but you can buy a big bag of play sand from Home Depot for about $4. Just be sure to rinse it really, really well before putting it in the tank or it'll look like you filled the tank with milk. Play sand is perfectly safe for your fish and is a heck of a lot cheaper than sand sold specifically for aquarium use.


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## Aquarius Keeper (Sep 22, 2008)

Thanks for the home depot suggestion! I was about to but a little 
5 pound bag for $4 from a local store - which is still about 40% less than what petsmart charges for freshwater-safe sand.

I do want a lot, because I also want to use sand as the substrate in my 15g...


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