# Diagnosis needed - Dawn??



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Appeared almost over night. No other signs of anything on other fish. No recent issues. Nickle size, shape, and width. The fish is behaving normally, acts as if nothing is wrong.

































Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate <5ppm undetectable
pH 8.2
8dkh
440ppm Calcium
1.024 salinity
78F

This is my 180 FOWLR.

A final thought. This is not a skin abrasion. What you are seeing has depth. It is literally exactly like a nickle on the body of the fish.


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## cerianthus (Jul 13, 2008)

Nothing out of ordinary was done to the tank? Any newbie added?

How long did you have the majestic?
Any expoure to low pH ?


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

I purchased the Majestic on July16th of this year. It was in Q for over 5 weeks, added to the display on August 24th. My last fish addition was a Kleins Butterfly, added on December 7th. It was in Q for 6 weeks.

No changes at all. No pH fluctuations that I am aware of. My first thought was also pH, but I test 2 times weekly for pH, alkalinity, and calcium. No unusual changes.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Can you get that fish out of the tank and into QT without over stressing it? That is going to be the safest way to treat it. I will pm you shortly with a list of suggestions for meds...


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## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

wow that looks like a crazy damage on that angel. I hope it gets better soon!!


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Thanks to Dawn for help in answering this thread. I understand why she asked to take this off line. The topic quickly became complicated and it would be easy for the casual reader to misunderstand the process. I do want to say, however, than anyone faced with uncommon disease outbreaks should consider Dawn a valuable resource.


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## cerianthus (Jul 13, 2008)

Pasfur said:


> Thanks to Dawn for help in answering this thread. I understand why she asked to take this off line. The topic quickly became complicated and it would be easy for the casual reader to misunderstand the process. I do want to say, however, than anyone faced with uncommon disease outbreaks should consider Dawn a valuable resource.


Looking forward to her insight as I am sure I would have no probelm comprehending the procedure. 
It is the another way to learn/increase ones perspectives in fish keeping and objective of fish forum.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Complicated is not the only reason for moving this answer to pm. The medications I suggested are not a safe thing for the average marine hobbyist to be messing with and could easily wipe out an entire tank in a matter of hours if used to treat the wrong illness or if not handled properly. Pasfur has enough experience I think he can handle it, but this is not a treatment method I would commonly suggest to just anyone.

Sorry to everyone who wishes for me to post the details here. All I will say here is that this appears to be a bacterial infection with a heavy fungal growth as a secondary infection, and was likely caused by a superficial wound obtained from a scrape on a rock or something of that nature.


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## mrdemin (Oct 4, 2009)

the DOC is back


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## cerianthus (Jul 13, 2008)

bettababy said:


> Complicated is not the only reason for moving this answer to pm. The medications I suggested are not a safe thing for the average marine hobbyist to be messing with and could easily wipe out an entire tank in a matter of hours if used to treat the wrong illness or if not handled properly. Pasfur has enough experience I think he can handle it, but this is not a treatment method I would commonly suggest to just anyone.
> 
> Sorry to everyone who wishes for me to post the details here. All I will say here is that this appears to be a bacterial infection with a heavy fungal growth as a secondary infection, and was likely caused by a superficial wound obtained from a scrape on a rock or something of that nature.


 
Nothing illegal, banned med???, I hope. I dont think it is the the infection from wound received from scrape on the rock. Well, I havent come across fish stupid enough to cause such on its own but have seen nemerous injuries from surgeon fish. And I dont think it's that either. Although pic is blur, it does not appeared to have secondary fungal infection yet. 

There is another possibility as far as how fish were caught. Something most rule out???

Anyway, good luck with treatment and hope Majestic fully recover very soon.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

I will say this, one thing to keep in mind is that this is my fish. Knowing this is my fish allows us to skip a few pages of questions and answers. These skipped Q&A could cause some people to jump to conclusions when faced with a similar (but different) situation in the future. So I do think it is appropriate to go offline with this discussion. 

I think both of you present possible causes and diagnosis. I considered several possibilities, including a skin abrasion from a scrape on a rock, a bite from the Hogfish, a slash from a Surgeonfish, a bacterial infection from high DOC's, and fin damage cause by a net in the shipping process. I was able to rule all of these situations out to my satisfaction. Unfortunately, it almost has to be one of these things, so it is most likely a result of aggression from other fish, despite my not observing such behavior. 

Regardless of how it occurred, it does appear to be fungal. However, I never saw signs of a bacterial infection, so I am still sitting tight before I treat. Today the infection appeared to be slightly reduced, so I am patiently considering options. 

This is why internet diagnosis is so difficult, we simply do not have lab equipment at our disposal.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

You make a wonderful point with internet making diagnosis difficult. I have the lab equipment, just not access to the animals to take the scrapings and biopsies that would lend full accurate answers without question.

One note about the bacterial possibilities... more often than not fungal infections are accompanied by underlying bacterial infections, it just is not as easily seen by the naked eye. Fungus tends to feed on dead skin tissue, and this applies to a wide range in species of fungus that are common in the fish world. It is often than the bacteria does the primary damage and the fungus then feeds on the damaged/dead tissue. Unfortunately, the only way to know positively if the bacteria is indeed present is to get a scraping under the scope. In situations like this all we can do is weigh the symptoms, examine what photos are available, and make the best educated guess we can, and try to safely treat for those things that may be there if we have good reason to believe they are. In this case, the symptoms for both bacterial and fungal infections appear to be present.

I also want to note, I did not make this diagnosis alone. I called my husband in to consult because marine fish disease and illness is his specialty. The photos were not perfectly clear, but they were clear enough for us to both recognize specific signs of both bacterial and fungal infections at work. My diagnosis and treatment suggestions were based on that consult and the lengthy discussion we shared about what we both saw.

My only goal is to help see this fish recover as quickly and easily as possible. Please keep me posted and let me know if there are any changes, I plan to follow this case closely.

Best of luck to you and your fish.


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## cerianthus (Jul 13, 2008)

Pasfur said:


> I will say this, one thing to keep in mind is that this is my fish. Knowing this is my fish allows us to skip a few pages of questions and answers. These skipped Q&A could cause some people to jump to conclusions when faced with a similar (but different) situation in the future. So I do think it is appropriate to go offline with this discussion.
> 
> I think both of you present possible causes and diagnosis. I considered several possibilities, including a skin abrasion from a scrape on a rock, a bite from the Hogfish, a slash from a Surgeonfish, a bacterial infection from high DOC's, and fin damage cause by a net in the shipping process. I was able to rule all of these situations out to my satisfaction. Unfortunately, it almost has to be one of these things, so it is most likely a result of aggression from other fish, despite my not observing such behavior.
> 
> ...


 
No one, including myself has to share something which took many years of schooling/very determined efforts but again I am only trying to assist to see your fish make a full recovery.
Another reason why I joined fish forum is to learn new persppectives in fish keeping by reading/listening to others' experiences. No one know all, even if I one is a Fish Pathologist/Marine Biologist.

Like you said it is your fish and your decision. No argument there. 
My intentions are to assist not create confusion. I am sure everyone wants to see your fish make a full recovery.

Although pics are very blur, first thing that popped in my head was early stages (no lesions yet?) of Mycobacterium Sp (Fish TB) and Nocardia Sp. infections which I have seen from my experiences. I'm tilting more toward former.
Google for info/images and also research data & Fish Pathology Books for comparison. You could also contact or e-mail clear pics to few Fish Phrmaceutical Co for advices. Fish TB is not that uncommon in captivity and as similar symptom(s) can mislead first timers towards fungal infection, one tends to overlook what could be simpler diagnosis.
By all means, I am not syaing it is or it is not, even with clear pics.
All I am trying to do is to open bigger horizon for most hobbyist for better and more accurate diagnosis.


Hope it is lot simpler than I am thinking.


Hope all goes well!


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Thanks for the input. Sincerely.

Today the white patch is gone. (no treatment yet) What remains is redness, with no texture or thickness. I am still sitting tight. I plan to begin treatment for a bacterial infection in the near future if no further improvement is seen. I still hold hope that the fish recovers on its own, which often occurs when I show extreme patience.


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## cerianthus (Jul 13, 2008)

Just redness? No lesion yet? What kind of antibiotics do you have now or what was recommended by BB?

Hope this can be reveresed/healed with improvement on water conditions. Small but frequent water changes. 
Never massive one in one shot. Even when ajusting pH or calc, mag, etc, etc, should be done gradually, letting fish adjust to gradually changing environment. 
Are you certain of no pH fluctuations and/or prolonged lower than usual pH exposure recently?

How is Butterfly? Is it eating well? How about majestic's eating habit?

I dont know if you know what Supreme Superking Filter looks like? I found that the Filter Box had numerous use in catching/dipping/isolating/even injection/minor surgery(?)/Photo taking/ HOB refugium to grow mangroves or macro, etc etc.
If you can get your hands on few of these, they may serve important tasks in fish keeping. So does Large plastic carbon Jar with few modifications. Well, IMO. 

I even used clear plasic jars with mod as Fish trap when catching s/w, f/w fish. I will share that some other time. Ever since reading about Lionfish in LI Sound, I'm dying to catch one although such news does prove global warming, at leat to some degree. Caught enough buterflies, Big eye, file, Web Burr, etc, etc during HOT HOtT Summer months.

Anyway, keep us posted.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

cerianthus said:


> Just redness? No lesion yet?


Not yet. And the skin appears to be closing over the wound. In other words, the size of the circle is smaller.


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## cerianthus (Jul 13, 2008)

bit concerned with rednes you mentioned which CAN lead to lesion.

Hope my assumptions are wrong .

Good Luck!


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

One day later and still looking better. No white stuff and the skin is healing.


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## cerianthus (Jul 13, 2008)

Any treatment given yet or actions taken to assist with healing?


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

No action yet. I stepped up the garlic feedings to reduce the risk of an ich infection. If you've followed my threads on ich you know how much I believe in garlic. 

Other than that, i've just sat back and allowed the fish a chance to heal. It is so much better today than it was a few days ago that I am not going to add any meds if not necessary. I am ridiculously patient when it comes to disease. I just hate adding any meds to a tank.


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## terryap (Sep 22, 2009)

Glad to hear your angel is doing better


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## cerianthus (Jul 13, 2008)

Pasfur said:


> No action yet. I stepped up the garlic feedings to reduce the risk of an ich infection. If you've followed my threads on ich you know how much I believe in garlic.
> 
> Other than that, i've just sat back and allowed the fish a chance to heal. It is so much better today than it was a few days ago that I am not going to add any meds if not necessary. I am ridiculously patient when it comes to disease. I just hate adding any meds to a tank.


Garlic, Not just for fish but on us too, IMHO

Glad to hear recovering on its own. Have you stepped up with maintenance since beginning of mishap?

Although pics were blur, those pic def refreshed my memory of Myco.

Anyway, keep us posted!


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

No, I haven't changed my maintenance routine at all. I'm already doing exactly what I think needs to be done. I don't fiddle around with saltwater. I stick to my routine, which is part of what I credit for the success I've had with my systems.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

It has been twelve days since my first post and the fish appears to be healthy again. Just the slightest bit of sensitive appearance where the white growth was. Assuming no secondary infections set in, it appears the fish recovered on its own. 

I am now of the opinion, after some offline conversations, that this was probably just an allergic reaction. Perhaps it was stung by the Rabbitfish or slashed by a Tang.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Fully "cured" with no signs of other infections. It is like nothing ever happened. Very odd, but I'll take the good luck!


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

I'm glad it's all resolved and that your fish has recovered.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Thats great news! Glad to hear it!


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I'm glad to hear that all is well with your fish.


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