# Ammonia how high?



## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

As many of you know, I am still trying to cycle my first tank. In the beginning I think I was doing far to frequent of water changes and nothing was changing. Now, the ammonia is finally starting to spike but I am wondering how high it has to get before the Nitrite will finally show up. Then how high does the Nitrite have to get before Nitrate is finally created? 

This morning the Ammonia is .50 but the Nitrite is still 0. I am worried about my fish. One of them, the one that was odd from day one, disappeared over night. I suspect that the other 2 ate him.  I don't want to stress the others out so I was thinking of doing another small water change but if I do, won't I just stop the cycle process again? How long can these little guys hang on in high Ammonia conditions? So far, they seem alright but I don't really know what normal is. They are active and eating meals. That said, the one that is now gone ate last night too. :-?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Water changes do NOT negatively affect the cycling. If ammonia (or nitrite when it appears) is above .25 a partial water change should be done, every day with 50% of the tank is fine. This is the only way to save your fish.

The nitrification bacteria live on surfaces covered by water; they live in the filter media, in the substrate (on every piece of gravel), on plant leaves, on tank walls, on wood and rocks--everywhere. They do not live in the water. When you do a water change during cycling, syphon out the water without vacuuming the substrate (to leave the bacteria there) and replace it. Use a good conditioner--Prime is one that detoxifies ammonia and nitrite so it is good during cycling.

Ammonia and nitrite are highly toxic to all life, and if not kept low can cause internal damage to fish that may kill them later if not sooner. Different fish have different tolerance levels to ammonia and nitrite, but it stresses all fish (at the very least) and will kill others outright.

Byron.


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## JohnnyD44 (Dec 5, 2008)

+1, great post B.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

Thanks Byron. I did what I thought was best and changed the water. About 50%. I am glad to get on here and read that it is the right thing to do. I was confused because others told me that if I kept changing the water, I would never get my tank cycled. 

The fish I thought had been eaten showed up again. Guess I have been successful in providing plenty of hiding spots. That or I am going completely blind with old age. Thanks again for all of your help. I am sure it is hard for some of you to remember what it is like to be a newbie but with all the differing opinions, it is hard to know what is right sometimes. I appreciate everyones patience.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

When I started in the hobby, all I had was the fish store (a department store in those days, no real "pet" stores around). And maybe a paperback booklet if one could afford them.

Now we have forums like this one, with many experienced members to help a newbie. How lucky we all are; not just you and other newbies, but I continue to learn a lot from this forum.

Byron.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

Yes and that is a huge benefit to all of us. The downside is that it is a lot of information to weed through. There are a lot of people that know a lot of valuable information to share and a lot of people who THINK they have great information to share. That is where I am having issues. I have gotten a lot of great info and some scary. 

Today I had a lady tell me that I should add a bunch more fish to my tank to get the Ammonia levels higher to speed along the cycle process. I also got the idea of adding a few live plants to my tank and a fun way to do that. I just have to keep weeding. I am still looking for fun rocks to add to my tank. I have to do something to stay busy while I wait until the cycle process is over. Can't find the nice slate in decent size pieces. Part of the fun is trying to find new things to add to my tank. Not to mention shopping for a larger tank.


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## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

plants actually would help the proccess a bit...

If you get enough plants, then you won't have to cycle at all...


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## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

Byron said:


> Water changes do NOT negatively affect the cycling.


I had a lengthy debate with Tyyrlym I believe a while back on this issue. I'm convinced that, if you're doing water changes with enough frequency and of enough volume to keep ammonia from ever reaching readable levels, you're probably limiting the potential growth rate of bacteria. If a bacterium is sitting there, it needs X amount of ammonia before it's able to divide, and if the ammonia is half as concentrated in the water as it was previously, that bacterium is only going to be able to grab an ammonia molecule half as often.

Whether that speculation is true or not is essentially a completely moot point, though. If you're doing a fishless cycle there's no need to keep ammonia levels low through water changes, and if you're cycling with fish the health of your cycling fish is more important than any extra time the cycle may take so water changes should be done anyway even if it does prolong the cycle some.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

iamntbatman said:


> I had a lengthy debate with Tyyrlym I believe a while back on this issue. I'm convinced that, if you're doing water changes with enough frequency and of enough volume to keep ammonia from ever reaching readable levels, you're probably limiting the potential growth rate of bacteria. If a bacterium is sitting there, it needs X amount of ammonia before it's able to divide, and if the ammonia is half as concentrated in the water as it was previously, that bacterium is only going to be able to grab an ammonia molecule half as often.
> 
> Whether that speculation is true or not is essentially a completely moot point, though. If you're doing a fishless cycle there's no need to keep ammonia levels low through water changes, and if you're cycling with fish the health of your cycling fish is more important than any extra time the cycle may take so water changes should be done anyway even if it does prolong the cycle some.


That's quite true. But how much water would one have to change to effectively eliminate the ammonia or at least reduce it to the point where it would not be sufficient for bacteria? Given that fish and other organic processes regularly produce ammonia, a 50% water change every day is in my view not going to eliminate it; it will reduce it, obviously, that's why we do it, for the fish as you mention; but if the reading is still above zero (which it usually would be until the tank is cycled) the bacteria will presumably manage.

We know that in a cycled and balanced tank, ammonia should never be detectable by tests, but always at zero. And yet one assumes there are bacteria present in balance with the fish. Plus of course the test kits we use are probably not fine-tuned as scientific instruments so a zero reading may in fact be showing when there is some ammonia present.

Plus the fact that if plants are present, they will generally grab the ammonia before the bacteria can, and then in acidic water the bacteria are naturally fewer.

And my short sentence perhaps needs expanding; in the context of the new tank with ammonia present at levels above what the bacteria can so far handle, the fish must come first, and the intended 50% daily water change will not affect the cycling as detrimentally as not doing the water change will affect the fish's health. As you correctly state, that comes first.

That other lady suggesting more fish be added while doing no water changes is clearly out of focus. This will result in stressed if not dead fish, which at least will increase their fish sales I suppose.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

I am actually thinking of puting some plants in pots in my tank. I am going to get a few of those small strawberry pots and put plants in those. I might add one larger pot on it's side for a cave too. Still no big change in the numbers in my tank. I will continue to search for decor instead of fish.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Inga said:


> I am actually thinking of putting some plants in pots in my tank. I am going to get a few of those small strawberry pots and put plants in those. I might add one larger pot on it's side for a cave too. Still no big change in the numbers in my tank. I will continue to search for decor instead of fish.


What type of fish will be going in this tank? And what substrate?

Plants in pots work well in tanks with large cichlids or plecos that might otherwise uproot the plants. But aside from this (or in "clean" breeding tanks) I personally do not recommend potted plants. Some of the plants have quite extensive root systems and if you have houseplants you will know about plants getting root-bound and needing transplanting. If the plants have open space, they will grow better root systems. Depends upon the plants, some won't care.

The pots are fine on their own for making caves and such, either whole or broken in half. Just so you know it's not the "pot" that I'm against, it's the plants in the pots.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

At this point I am thinking of adding 2 Blood Parrots and maybe a Butterfly Pleco and 5 more Tiger Barbs to make a school. 

If I add any plants, it will just be a few and I will chose carefully. I just thought a few real plants might be nice. So far, I have some plastic (which look crappy) and some silk which look slightly nicer but still fake.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Blood parrot cichlids are large fish, attaining 8-10 inches and live for 10 years. No mention is made of tank size in this thread, but these fish need at least 50g when small so they will develop properly. Which brings me to another issue, they are man-made and some people object to what has been done with/to these fish getting "bubblegum" colours and such.

They would need strong filtration, as they are heavy eaters and have a sizeable impact on the tank's biology. I don't know how they are with plants as I have never kept them.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

Hm, I wonder if there is a such thing as a Dwarf Blood Parrot? The fish lady who says she has raised several said they average 6 inches at adulthood. The ones I saw were a bright orange. My tank is a 60 gallon. I Hope to get a larger tank in a few years, maybe 150 gallon, not sure yet.

I currently have an emperor 400 which is for up to 90 gallon tanks and have plans to get a sponge, this week. My Tiger barbs are half again as big as they were when I got them. I am shocked at how quickly they are growing. I wanted them to be larger before I added the Blood Parrots, so that is a good thing. I am still thinking about the Blood Parrots. Just as with dogs, I am not a fan of engineered fish. The only reason I was thinking about them is because they are pretty, slightly larger and would more then likely get along just fine with the Tiger Barbs.

I was told that right before I add them, I should rearrange my tank so that the Tiger Barbs are not so territorial. Does that make any sense?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I would like to see a cichlid expert step in to this discussion; I've never had Blood Parrots, only know what little I know from research. But from that, I would certainly question the advice you were given by the store. And remember, it was the store lady that certainly mislead you on cycling.

I am wondering if these blood parrots might not be too "sedate" for tiger barbs? Iamntbatman and 1077 have kept large cichlids, as have many others here, and they keep close tabs on threads so they will probably be able to advise better than I can at this stage.

Byron.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

Alright, thanks Byron. It is always good to hear multiple thoughts on these things. What works for some might not for others etc... I am definitely NOT getting anything real quickly so I have time to research. It wasn't a fish I was thinking about before seeing them. I have read a little about them and at first was incredibly put off by the fact that they are human engineered breed. I tend to think God does it better then we do and avoid such things. After seeing these fish however, I thought it might be a possibility. It wasn't just one person that told me about the Blood Parrots but you are right, it was mostly people who work at the fish store so...

It sure would be nice to hear from someone who has actually owned them and in what type of tank etc. I can't wait to hear anything you all can tell me about them.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

I have not kept the Blood Parrot but folks I know have. I find them an abomination and it is reported that these fish suffer from developmental abnormalities of the spine and swim bladder along with a mouth that they seem unable to close which may or may not affect feeding capabilities.
The one thing I am near certain of, is that tiger barbs would surely hamper the blood Parrots abilty to feed for they are much quicker than the rather slow "waddling" Parrot.
Have kept the green, and gold variety of Tiger barbs along with the more commonly seen orange and black and found that in group of a dozen or more ,they usually confine fin nipping amomg themselves and it is much less an issue than when these fish are kept in smaller groups.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

I am getting a little frustrated. Again this morning my numbers are showing the Ammonia spike but still nothing for Nitrite. I am now a little over 5 weeks in and I have yet to see any Nitrite, is that normal? I have to do partial water changes to keep my fish healthy but my understanding was there would still be enough ammonia in rocks, plants and decor that the Nitrite should still be produced. Am I wrong? Any idea as to how long ammonia is present in a tank before Nitrite spike?

It's not that I am in a hurry, I just can't help but think I am doing something wrong. I think today I am going to go search out a sponge filter, should I hold off adding that?


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## sik80 (Mar 16, 2010)

Inga said:


> I am getting a little frustrated. Again this morning my numbers are showing the Ammonia spike but still nothing for Nitrite. I am now a little over 5 weeks in and I have yet to see any Nitrite, is that normal? I have to do partial water changes to keep my fish healthy but my understanding was there would still be enough ammonia in rocks, plants and decor that the Nitrite should still be produced. Am I wrong? Any idea as to how long ammonia is present in a tank before Nitrite spike?
> 
> It's not that I am in a hurry, I just can't help but think I am doing something wrong. I think today I am going to go search out a sponge filter, should I hold off adding that?


have you tested for nitrAtes yet? its probably worth doing


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

sik80 said:


> have you tested for nitrAtes yet? its probably worth doing


Yes, I got a reading of 0. The Ammonia keeps spiking every few days, then I do a partial water change to keep my fish safe.
It was my understanding that once I had Nitrates, the Ammonia would go down? I only have a few fish in a 60 gallon tank, so I doubt it is too much of a bio load for the filter.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I went back through this thread, but don't see any mention of which water conditioner you are using; could you tell us please?

Second, just confirm that no other additives are going in, other than the water conditioner with each partial water change. Or if something else is being added, what and how much. Want to make sure we have all the data.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

I have been adding the API Stress Coat to the water. In the beginning the API biological additives. (yes, the fish lady talked me into that) It is gone now, a small bottle doesn't go far in a 60 gallon with several water changes. I was thinking that once this bottle (a large one) is gone I will maybe try Prime? What are your thoughts? Thanks


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

API Stress Coat will do the job at present. The one aspect of it that some don't like is that it

forms a synthetic slime coating and replaces the natural secretion of slime that is interrupted by handling, shipping, fish fighting, or other forms of stress

[taken from their website], but I wouldn't worry over that at present. For the future, yes, Prime is highly recommended although I don't use it since I don't need/want the detoxifying of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate in my planted aquaria. But as a water conditioner for non-planted tanks, it is highly recommended.

Biological supplements are OK in new tanks, in one without plants I would always use it myself. Don't know which you used, but I do not recommend API's Stress Zyme because it fiddles with the natural bacteria and I don't think that is a good idea. I use Seachem's Stability which is 100% pure nitrosomonas and nitrospira bacteria and it does help establish nitrifying bacteria quicker, much like seeding the tank with bacteria-laden media, etc.

By the way, as long as you are using a conditioner that detoxifies ammonia, you needn't be too worried about high ammonia test readings. These conditioners work by changing ammonia to the less harmful ammonium; bacteria (and plants if there were any) use the ammonium just the same. Test kits read ammonia and ammonium as ammonia, so while it may still show in a test, it is probably ammonium and safe. If the fish look OK, not to worry. However, these detoxifiers only work so long, usually 24 hours, so monitor ammonia daily and observe the fish, and be prepared for a partial water change at the first sign of fish stress.

Byron.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

Thanks for all of your help. I have to admit, thus far, my fish tank has not been the relaxing experience I was hoping for. How do you feel about adding a Sponge filter to the tank? I was thinking of adding this

*Filter Kit #5C (For 40-60 Gallon Aquariums).*
Includes: Via Aqua 480 Pump, Hydro Sponge 5 PRO Filter (higher flow rates!), and Jungle Start Right Water Conditioner._ONLY $24.99 _







What are your thoughts on this? I currently have the emperor 400 bio-wheel hang on back type filter. I just thought adding the extra sponge would be a good thing and also help to keep the good bacteria in the tank.

I will be getting the PRIME and also the Seachem's Stability, if I can find it. My Mopani wood was smelly and had white fuzz on it, I took it out and scrubbed it and soaked it in boiling water for 1/2 hour, then returned it. The fish seem to enjoy hiding out by the wood so I didn't want to just keep it out but was worried about the fuzz after reading another thread on here. Also, the smell upon removing it was a bit much too. YUCK! Like Rotting eggs.

Is there anywhere else to get the sponge kits, If you recommend I should get one, that might be better? Also, how do you feel about adding aquarium salt to the tank for my Tiger Barbs to help with stress? It was recommended by a fish lady here but I wasn't sure if I should do that at all. I tend to find less is often best in dealing with all of my other animals, but I do not know fish.


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## amazon21 (Jun 28, 2010)

Inga said:


> Thanks for all of your help. I have to admit, thus far, my fish tank has not been the relaxing experience I was hoping for. How do you feel about adding a Sponge filter to the tank? I was thinking of adding this
> 
> *Filter Kit #5C (For 40-60 Gallon Aquariums).*
> Includes: Via Aqua 480 Pump, Hydro Sponge 5 PRO Filter (higher flow rates!), and Jungle Start Right Water Conditioner._ONLY $24.99 _
> ...


Have you tried bacteria supplement?? I was able to bring my ammonia and nitrate down to 0 after a week when I used that.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

amazon21 said:


> Have you tried bacteria supplement?? I was able to bring my ammonia and nitrate down to 0 after a week when I used that.


 
Is that the Seachem's Stability that Byron was talking about? I only put in some API stress coat in the beginning but now I am only using the chlorine reducer at water changes.


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## amazon21 (Jun 28, 2010)

Inga said:


> Is that the Seachem's Stability that Byron was talking about? I only put in some API stress coat in the beginning but now I am only using the chlorine reducer at water changes.


No, its this stuff that you can buy at your LFS. Its pretty much bacteria in a bottle. Most people put it in before they add fish, but you can also put it in during your water change. It speeds up your cycling process because you'll have enough bacteria quicker. Most pet stores I've been to have it.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

Oh, Yes, I did add some of that. I also went and got live filter media from an existing aquarium at the fishstore. The reason I am asking about the sponge is that once my tank is finally cycled, I don't want to lose that when I change the filter. Keeping the sponge in there would keep healthy bacteria in the tank. AT least that is my thought process. ha ha


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## amazon21 (Jun 28, 2010)

Inga said:


> Oh, Yes, I did add some of that. I also went and got live filter media from an existing aquarium at the fishstore. The reason I am asking about the sponge is that once my tank is finally cycled, I don't want to lose that when I change the filter. Keeping the sponge in there would keep healthy bacteria in the tank. AT least that is my thought process. ha ha


I've never had a bio-wheel but I know a lot about them and they are good. A sponge filter would help you, but I don't think it would make that big of an impact during the first few weeks.


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## amazon21 (Jun 28, 2010)

how many fish did you have when you started cycling, and what are they??


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## Austin (Feb 1, 2010)

You've tested both nitrate and nitrites but are still getting 0s? Seems rather odd.


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## amazon21 (Jun 28, 2010)

Austin said:


> You've tested both nitrate and nitrites but are still getting 0s? Seems rather odd.


thats normall if there isn't enough bacteria to convert the amonia into nitrate yet.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Inga said:


> Is that the Seachem's Stability that Byron was talking about? I only put in some API stress coat in the beginning but now I am only using the chlorine reducer at water changes.


Yes, Stability is one such product. Tetra also make one, forgotten its name at the moment. Tetra actually bought Dr. Tim Hovanec's formula, he discovered this process of bottling live bacteria. But Stability is the same thing (live bacteria).

Byron.


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## amazon21 (Jun 28, 2010)

Byron said:


> Yes, Stability is one such product. Tetra also make one, forgotten its name at the moment. Tetra actually bought Dr. Tim Hovanec's formula, he discovered this process of bottling live bacteria. But Stability is the same thing (live bacteria).
> 
> Byron.


Tetra's live bacteria is called safe start. Tetra's water conditioner with biopolymers is called aquasafe.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Inga said:


> Thanks for all of your help. I have to admit, thus far, my fish tank has not been the relaxing experience I was hoping for. How do you feel about adding a Sponge filter to the tank? I was thinking of adding this
> 
> *Filter Kit #5C (For 40-60 Gallon Aquariums).*
> Includes: Via Aqua 480 Pump, Hydro Sponge 5 PRO Filter (higher flow rates!), and Jungle Start Right Water Conditioner._ONLY $24.99 _
> ...


I like sponge filters, as sole filters on smaller (under 50 gallons) tanks, and they can be used on larger too. I say sole filter because I am not a fan of over-filtration. There is a definite limit to what more filters will accomplish. However, in a tank with no plants and if you are considering large fish like cichlids, both filters will be fine.

I saw the wood thread, I commented there, nothing more to add.

Salt is not something I would ever add to a freshwater tank. There are cases where it can be used as a medication, but only with certain fish--some are highly vulnerable to salt. At this stage it will do nothing beneficial anyway.

And you are quite correct; the less stuff that goes into an aquarium with live fish, the better. Absolutely. Fish are in a confined volume of water that is (for purposes of this discussion) self-contained and isolated. Whatever you put in the water is going to impact the fish, they can't escape from it. Think of it as someone pumping carbon monoxide into a closed room and you not being able to open a window or escape. The fish are in that situation. Anything that goes into the tank is going to affect them, sometimes beneficially but often not. The less the better, and only what is absolutely necessary in the specific circumstance.

Byron.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

Austin said:


> You've tested both nitrate and nitrites but are still getting 0s? Seems rather odd.


 
I thought so too. That is what is confusing me. It has been almost 6 weeks now. I should have thought I would be seeing some change other then just Ammonia. :-?

Well, fish are a lesson in patience so... I wait. :roll:


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## Castro235 (Mar 4, 2010)

I know you've already gotten plenty of good feedback and help on here, but I figure I might as well share my experiences too.

I had a 10 gallon with 3 goldfish, a normal HOB filter, and fake plants, I changed about 50% water every day to every other day, and for about 2-3 months, had zero nitrite/nitrates(from a strip test) and my ammonia was in the medium to low range from how often I changed it.

Then I became quite busy, and my water changes went from every other day, to 50% every week, sometimes less, and within a week or two, I had low ammonia and nitrates were in the tank.

I know its supposed to be that water changes dont affect it, and whatnot, but this was just my experience.

Then again, I had a 55 gallon tank, I haven't done any water changes since I set it up maybe a month ago, and I never saw the ammonia get anywhere above <.25, from when it was 2 goldfish, to now being 4, and I had nitrates within the first 2 weeks in that as well.

I personally won't be doing as many water changes when I set up new tanks from now on, but I also had goldfish which are hardy and able to cope with higher ammonia levels, so this may differ for everyone, and every fish.

Good luck either way though.

And in both tanks, i never saw a nitrite, so that I can't really comment on.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

Thanks for sharing that. I was beginning to feel like a total fish tank failure. I am still not getting any reading of Nitrite or Nitrate. The only reason I keep doing the partial water changes is because I don't want my fish to die off. 

I have Tiger Barbs in my tank and it seems like when the Ammonia gets high, their color changes. Their stripes seem to get lighter Grey and their orange all but disappears. At least on one of the fish, the others seem to do alright. Then after I change the water and the tank settles the fish color comes back. Today the Ammonia is testing .5 but their color is fine so far. Maybe I should wait until this evening or even tomorrow to do a partial change? 

I am still doing daily water checks and I always seem to have some Ammonia but have never had Nitrite or Nitrate at all. I tested my tap water before adding it to the tank and it showed 0 ammonia. I was just curious about the "before" quality of the water. I know it is not supposed to be this difficult, I don't know why my tank is not cycling properly? They say "a watched pot never boils" maybe I am checking it to often and being too concerned, but I am watching out for my current fish's welfare.


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## Castro235 (Mar 4, 2010)

Inga said:


> Thanks for sharing that. I was beginning to feel like a total fish tank failure. I am still not getting any reading of Nitrite or Nitrate. The only reason I keep doing the partial water changes is because I don't want my fish to die off.
> 
> I have Tiger Barbs in my tank and it seems like when the Ammonia gets high, their color changes. Their stripes seem to get lighter Grey and their orange all but disappears. At least on one of the fish, the others seem to do alright. Then after I change the water and the tank settles the fish color comes back. Today the Ammonia is testing .5 but their color is fine so far. Maybe I should wait until this evening or even tomorrow to do a partial change?
> 
> I am still doing daily water checks and I always seem to have some Ammonia but have never had Nitrite or Nitrate at all. I tested my tap water before adding it to the tank and it showed 0 ammonia. I was just curious about the "before" quality of the water. I know it is not supposed to be this difficult, I don't know why my tank is not cycling properly? They say "a watched pot never boils" maybe I am checking it to often and being too concerned, but I am watching out for my current fish's welfare.


It seemed to me like I was doing everything wrong for the month or so that I had 0 for everything but ammonia, but fortunately with the goldfish they were able to survive my busy spout, and managed to cycle the tank when I wasn't paying attention, I don't know much of anything still, so all I really know is goldfish seem to cycle my tanks well, and I love them so I love having them around after the cycle lol.

Hopefully everything works out soon, if you were in the local area I'd give you a couple chunks of lava rock from my sump tank to help the process, but for now I can only offer my wishes of good luck!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Inga said:


> Thanks for sharing that. I was beginning to feel like a total fish tank failure. I am still not getting any reading of Nitrite or Nitrate. The only reason I keep doing the partial water changes is because I don't want my fish to die off.
> 
> I have Tiger Barbs in my tank and it seems like when the Ammonia gets high, their color changes. Their stripes seem to get lighter Grey and their orange all but disappears. At least on one of the fish, the others seem to do alright. Then after I change the water and the tank settles the fish color comes back. Today the Ammonia is testing .5 but their color is fine so far. Maybe I should wait until this evening or even tomorrow to do a partial change?
> 
> I am still doing daily water checks and I always seem to have some Ammonia but have never had Nitrite or Nitrate at all. I tested my tap water before adding it to the tank and it showed 0 ammonia. I was just curious about the "before" quality of the water. I know it is not supposed to be this difficult, I don't know why my tank is not cycling properly? They say "a watched pot never boils" maybe I am checking it to often and being too concerned, but I am watching out for my current fish's welfare.


The change in the barbs is not surprising; that is in this case probably the effect of the stress of the ammonia (would be similar if stressed by anything else too).

If you're using a conditioner that detoxifies ammonia (as well as chlorine and chloramine), remember your test readings will still show "ammonia" although it will be ammonium which is basically harmless. But the behaviour of the fish is the best guide, if they get stressed, a partial water change will help.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

I will keep going with the partial changes each few days. Today I got my new sponge filter in the mail and added that. I also got some Prime, so I can start using that as soon as the API is gone.

Is there a such thing as too much oxygen in the water? When I go to the fish stores, they have so many bubbles in most of the tanks. Adding this filter adds some oxygen but I put it into the corner so the fish do not have to swim right by it to utilize the space in the tank. Right now they are hanging out in the plants at the far side of the tank. I just added it and am hoping in a little while they will settle in and not be nervous about the new monster in their tank. ha ha They did come from a tank at the fish store that had quite a few bubbles. 

When I was putting together possible fish groups on this site http://www.aqadvisor.com/AqAdvisor....AqSpeciesWindowSize=short&AqSearchMode=simple

I set up scenario's with the sponge and without. IT seemed adding the sponge gives me more choices for fish in the tank. I assume the extra filter plus the oxygen will make it easier for more fish to share the tank? 

Byron isn't it unusual for only 1 of the fish to get stressed or is it like people, some are more nervous then others?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I don't think Tiger Barbs would find it too much flow or oxygen, some fish would.

And let's separate flow and oxygen. Oxygen is in the water, it enters it at the surface through the gaseous exchange (CO2 driven out, oxygen in). Plants produce enormous amount of oxygen during daylight (photosynthesis) and consume CO2 so they benefit from that aspect too.

Water flow is quite another issue. Some fish need it, others do not. Depends upon where they occur in nature. This info is included in our fish profiles so you can check each species and find those that are compatible. Having high-flow fish and low- or no-flow fish in the same tank is not good, esp in smaller tanks. In larger you can have higher flow at one end and it dissipates through the tank. I have this in my 115g which is 5-feet long, and it is interesting to see the species that will remain well away from the filter flow and those that spend more time near it. But none of the ones I have are "extreme" high-flow, so it works out. But I could never have this mix of fish in a 3-foot tank, there would not be enough room for the variation and one fish or other would suffer. Fish fighting against currents never get rest, and that takes its toll on their health.

I am always skeptical of any "method" for determining the number of fish in a tank. Compatibility has many aspects, and filtration is only one. But, the more filtration the more fish is not true. Moving water around more/faster does not mean more fish can go in the tank. Fish release pheromones into the water and filters do not remove them; these can cause stress to other fish. Plus there is the aspect of "space" for different fish.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

Oh yes, I agree with that. I think that site is just sort of a nice starting point. I have thrown some real off the wall scenario's at it and it will say not compatible. I also noted that fish, like anything have a general similarity based on species but some are more or less outgoing then others within the species. 

The Barbs took all of 15 minutes of hiding in the plants before coming out to investigate. They are now swimming all around it and seem to be enjoying the bubbles. I didn't know fish were so playful but they seem to be chasing the bubbles. lol 

I might be way off but I am guessing the conditions are not the worst in my tank as these fish are growing very fast. More often then not their striping is dark and pronounced with bright orange on their fins and around their mouths. They look...happy, for the most part.

I am thinking I will still get a few more plants in the tank (fake) just to add more hiding spots but that will be it for decor for awhile. Hopefully soon, I can add a few more fish. 

Any suggestions on bottom feeders, algae eaters for a 60 gallon? Obviously they must get along with the Barbs.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Inga said:


> Oh yes, I agree with that. I think that site is just sort of a nice starting point. I have thrown some real off the wall scenario's at it and it will say not compatible. I also noted that fish, like anything have a general similarity based on species but some are more or less outgoing then others within the species.
> 
> The Barbs took all of 15 minutes of hiding in the plants before coming out to investigate. They are now swimming all around it and seem to be enjoying the bubbles. I didn't know fish were so playful but they seem to be chasing the bubbles. lol
> 
> ...


Keeping to SE Asia (like the barbs) some of the loaches would do. This is a 55g (going from memory) so a groups of 3-5 of the small loaches would be fine. Five would be best. They are very social, and some extremely playful. The "small" species are those that max out at 4-5 inches. Botia kubotai, Botia strigata, a couple others I can't remember. Check our profiles for info.


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## amazon21 (Jun 28, 2010)

Byron said:


> Keeping to SE Asia (like the barbs) some of the loaches would do. This is a 55g (going from memory) so a groups of 3-5 of the small loaches would be fine. Five would be best. They are very social, and some extremely playful. The "small" species are those that max out at 4-5 inches. Botia kubotai, Botia strigata, a couple others I can't remember. Check our profiles for info.


try clown loaches, they are extremely playful, and I think I read somewhere that they are supposedly the smartest aquarium fish. But they don't eat algae, the best algae eaters are S. American. And whatever you do, do NOT get Chinese Algae eaters.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Sorry, I do not recommend clown loaches for a 55g tank. These fish must be kept in groups to be "happy" as they (like most loaches) are highly social, and grow to 12 inches and thus need a much larger aquarium, 6 feet plus. They are not fish for smaller tanks. And not even when young unless you have larger tanks on hand or plan to, since fish grow all their lives and in small environments "stunting" can easily occur. The fish do not develop properly and health issues will plague them and usually early death. Potentially large fish must not be maintained in tanks that cannot accomodate their intended size.

It is a shame that so many fish stores will carry the clown loaches which are so unsuitable for the majority of aquarists, but not the smaller equally-beautiful loaches that would be ideal in "normal" size tanks.

I certainly do agree on not getting the chinese algae eater; when very small they nibble on algae, but they grow large (6 inches) and not only won't eat algae but becomes very aggressive to other fish. I would wait until you have plentiful algae before fussing over fish to eat it and then something like the Siamese Algae Eater would work, but they also get large.


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## amazon21 (Jun 28, 2010)

oh sorry, I don't know much about clown loaches, except for the fact that they're fun to watch. Had no idea they grew so big.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

amazon21 said:


> oh sorry, I don't know much about clown loaches, except for the fact that they're fun to watch. Had no idea they grew so big.


We're all here to learn; we never stop learning--at least I don't.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

Byron said:


> Sorry, I do not recommend clown loaches for a 55g tank. These fish must be kept in groups to be "happy" as they (like most loaches) are highly social, and grow to 12 inches .


 
I agree. My tank is only 4 feet long and that wouldn't give them much room to move. 

I did a partial water change yesterday (about 25%) and then used the Prime. This morning I checked and again have 1.0 Ammonia. The fish seem fine so I am going to just assume it is not hurting them and give it a day. I still get 0 readings on Nitrite and Nitrate. I think I am going with the "watched pot never boils" theory and I will quit doing the daily readings. Hopefully in a week I will take a reading and we will have progresses. Is it possible to not get readings on Nitrite/Nitrate and still have the tank fully cycled? I even went so far as to think maybe my API Mater test kit was faulty and got another one. The reading remain the same. Before anyone asks, Yes, I was following the directions each time.


I guess it can take up to 10 weeks to cycle (at least thats what some other fish folks told me) so I have a few weeks to go. 

I think my Barbs are pretty happy as I noted them sort of pairing up. One of the pairs hangs out by the Mopani wood and I can't help but wonder if they are not getting "Very Friendly" over there. I hope they hold off until the water levels settle down. I hope they do not breed in fact. I do not want a whole tank full of Tiger Barbs.:roll:


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

From what you've said in this thread, I would just monitor carefully the fish, and if they continue to be happy, leave well enough alone.

I alway shave live plants so when I set up a new tank I never have ammonia or nitrite above zero because the plants assimilate the ammonia (as ammonium) and do the job. So I can't say if one can somehow not get nitrite and be cycled without plants.

When you do test for nitrate, remember to shake the bottle of Regent #2 for 2+ minutes and not the 30 seconds in the instructions; otherwise you will likely get a false (high) reading if there are nitrates present.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

Byron said:


> From what you've said in this thread, I would just monitor carefully the fish, and if they continue to be happy, leave well enough alone.
> 
> I alway shave live plants so when I set up a new tank I never have ammonia or nitrite above zero because the plants assimilate the ammonia (as ammonium) and do the job. So I can't say if one can somehow not get nitrite and be cycled without plants.
> 
> When you do test for nitrate, remember to shake the bottle of Regent #2 for 2+ minutes and not the 30 seconds in the instructions; otherwise you will likely get a false (high) reading if there are nitrates present.


 
Ok, Thanks. Yes, I do tend to shake the bottle a lot more then it said. I started out with it exactly the 30 seconds, (I am a little Anal retentive) and then I tried shaking it more, and harder. What is the definition of insanity? Repeating a behavior over and over expecting different results? lol Well, in order to not feel insane, I shook more, waited a little longer to check the color against the card etc... 

One day, I left the test water in the tube and came back a few hours later. That is the only time the color had changed to show any Nitrate and that was only 5.0 ppm. That is why I thought maybe my test kit was old and had been sitting at the pet store too long or something. Desperation caused me to go buy another kit. Same results.:-?

Assume another week or so passes and nothing changes, do you feel it would be safe to add a few more fish? I really don't want these guys to become too territorial before I add anyone else. 

Byron and everyone else, I really appreciate your patience and willingness to share your knowledge. It is appreciated.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

I took water to get tested and got the go ahead to add some more fish. I added 4 Gourami's 2 Gold and 2 Blue. I had no idea how different fish can have such different personalities. My Barbs now look like bullies. They are not hurting the Gourami's just nit picking among themselves. The larger Gold Gourami's are sort of shy and hang about in the plants. The Blue however, has the cutest little personality. One of them follows me around, watching every move I make. It is not nervous about me at all. I REALLY like that little fish. 

I also added a few different plants and 2 flower pots for them to hide in. So far, they are not hiding in them but at least they have a few more options for hiding. lol Here are a few pictures of my new babies.

the blue


















The Gold









And not to let my Beastly little Barbs out. haha







Look at how big they got! 

And one more of my cute little Blue... Isn't that a cute little fish?









Now in my head, I am already planning a larger tank with a whole bunch of different Gourami. At first I thought their little tentacle things would gross me out but they are cute. They go around reaching out and touching things. Very curious little fish.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Gourami are interesting fish indeed. If you have a read of the profiles on these fish you will learn what they are doing when they use those "tentacle things" as you call them.;-) And also find out what you can do to make them really happy and healthy. We have the Blue Gourami now, [remember, you can click on shaded names to go to that fish's profile], but I haven't gotten the Gold added yet though there are several other gourami. [By the way, the plural of gourami is... gourami.]

Byron.

Edit: Silly me, the Gold Gourami is simply a colour morph of the Blue, same species. Sorry, the old mind wandered back there.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

Oh that *IS* interesting. They are tasting with those little "tentacles" My Barbs better look out. When one of them comes toward the curious Blue Gourami always puts up one of his taste receptors. 

It does say that they enjoy a heavily planted tank. I have a lot of fake plants that they are hanging about in but do they have to have real plants? They seem comfy but how do I know? They don't hang around the top as much as I thought they would. I do have a floating plant (fake) but I am not trying to promote breeding or anything. In fact, I do not want any of that going on.

Little Blue watched me while I am sitting here typing something on the computer, he is so cute.  I went to the store and checked out some plants. I might try to plant part of the tank with real plants to give them some options. One of my Blue ones tend to swim in the school with the Tigers, the other hangs out and stares at me. I think he is begging for more food. The yellow Gourami is a bit shyer and hangs out in the plants and chases anyone else away that tries to get near. They are the largest fish in the tank right now.

I feel so silly but to me they are just so exciting to watch. The naughtiness of the Barbs shows up a little more now that I have something to compare it to.

Edit to add: When I was at the store looking at plants for my tank, I stopped a person from buying a Pleco for his 10 gallon tank. It annoys the crap out of me that they will continue to see those fish off to anyone that asks without ever mentioning that in a very short time, they will be way too big for the persons tank. Grrrr!


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