# Cycling questions/troubles.



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

Ok, I'm new to the hobby and a bit confused on my readings for my currently cycling tank. I have a 75g long brackish tank setup. SG at 1.010, temp at about 84, and ph is 8. It was seeded with one bag of live sand and a fairly good size ornament from a full marine tank. I have used Stability and some other product (that said it promotes bacteria growth) on initial setup. I'm using clear ammonia for a fishless cycle and have been having to add rather large amounts to get my ammonia readings (15-20ml of pure ammonia) which have been 2-3 ppm. It has been only 3-4 days since I've started my cycling journey and even with the massive amounts of ammonia (much more that the 5 drops per 10 gallons I've read) and I'm already getting nitrAte readings? I tested for nitrite and none was present. Any ideas on what I'm doing wrong/right or where I'm at in the cycling process?


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Sit tight, this does not happen over night. You've got the ammonia in the tank, now let nature run out its course.
Tips for Cycling Your New Aquarium - The First Tank Guide - Getting Your Fish Tank Up and Running with Minimal Headaches


----------



## Tazman (Jan 15, 2012)

I would highly recommend dosing the ammonia up to 5ppm. With this method once the cycle is complete you can FULLY stock the tank straight away as the bacteria are in massive quantities.

I did that with my 75g freshwater tank and have zero ammonia / nitrite readings constantly and it is fully stocked.


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

But the nitrate levels were at 10 ppm already on the 2nd day. I thought once nitrate was present the cycling was almost over. My readings are just confusing from all the research that I've done.


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Not nessarily true. They may go up. Also, your dosing Ammonia and a Bacteria for a faster cycle, this usually leads to a longer one, because usually the dose gets botched. Your cycle may get shortened, wiat a week to see where its going. No one has the patience for this part of the hobby.


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

I'm a very impatient person, but I WILL have this right before adding my fish(es). Just curious as to what's going on in the microscopic world in my tank. But can you explain as to how I may have "botched" the dose? And by dose I assume you mean the clear ammonia and possibly the items used to seed? Sorry if I'm sounding rude, it's not that at all, just very eager to learn . This is the first step for me into, hopefully, a long and rewarding hobby. What should I be looking for in my readings and how long before I should see the changes to know that progress is being made. Also, I have one Penguin 350 HOB filter. My not so LFS told me that when dealing with a marine tank the filtration should be doubled. Does this apply to brackish, or did they just want me to buy another not-so-affordable filter? My funds have run out on this project at the moment.but for the sake of the length of this post I will include further questions (about acclimation) later on. I eagerly await responses of any kind, and appreciate any input anyone wishes to give me... I'm starting to love this site!


----------



## jeffnsa (Jan 3, 2012)

For filtration you should have a sump, refugium or skimmer and not another hang on back. lfs always want to sell you more stuff than you need so before you buy look around for a local saltwater club join for the information and usually good deals on equipment.
The botching the dosing comment is true because there is no perfect way to do it when each tank is different from another.Time is the best way to make sure your tank is ready but if you must test it do it every 2-3 days for at least another week and don't add anything else to the tank.


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

jeffnsa said:


> For filtration you should have a sump, refugium or skimmer and not another hang on back. lfs always want to sell you more stuff than you need so before you buy look around for a local saltwater club join for the information and usually good deals on equipment.
> The botching the dosing comment is true because there is no perfect way to do it when each tank is different from another.Time is the best way to make sure your tank is ready but if you must test it do it every 2-3 days for at least another week and don't add anything else to the tank.


 :thumbsup:


----------



## reefsahoy (Jul 16, 2010)

Jason4390 said:


> I'm a very impatient person,


 
one thing this hobby will teach you is to be patient. only bad thing happen fast, It's a slow process for good things to happen! if you go too fast you'll lose alot of $ and cause loss of live to aquarium stock. I hate to tell you but patients is key to success!


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

Ok, Thanks for everyone's input. As for filtration, which of the three would i need and how costly are they? A sump sounds possible, I do have an empty 10 gallon lying around. I've been browsing online and those three words are very expensive. So another HOB will not do, maybe a canister filter. If this is the route I have to go my porject will have to be put on a serious hold. What do you guys think I can get away with at first?


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Well, as far as I know, you don't need a skimmer on a Brackish tank. And thus a normal FW filter should get you by.


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

A sump is definitely out of my price range and will be for a while. I'm thinking of a HOB type of overflow, with a canister filter. I'm hearing good things about the Fluval 406, and it's a lot closer to my price range. I've read (on the internet) that HOB filters should turn 10x the aquarium size in gph. So this should be 750 for my tank. The same web page said it should be 5x the amount with a canister filter. Should this be enough? Maybe with certain filter media? I would love to have a sump, but it will have to be a later project. Any input? I hate to go against the advice I get here, but I'm hoping for another option for the time being.


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

Odyssea CFS500 Aquarium Canister Filter, any input on this filter?


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Jason4390 said:


> Odyssea CFS500 Aquarium Canister Filter, any input on this filter?


 :thumbsup:


----------



## jeffnsa (Jan 3, 2012)

Look for do it yourself refugiums and sumps on the internet you will be suprised how cheap and easily they can be made.


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

Ok, the Odyssea CFS500, an overflow, and 2 powerheads are on their way in the mail. As for setting the canister up. What filter media should I use and how should the circulation be set up to get the most out of the filter(keep in mind I'm both drawing water from the top and I will probably only be able to get the return about midway down into the tank)? Also, how will this addition fit into/effect my cycle? I would like to remove the HOB filter eventually, but this should be done after the cycling is complete, correct?


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

Did my thread die?


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Jason4390 said:


> Did my thread die?


 i don't do filters so can't tell ya what media to use. Filters catch and collect debre, and thus cause Nitrate issues. If you rgoing to use anything, its going to be a from of bioglass of some sort and filter pads in varying degrees. No, it won't hurt your cycle, as you rgoing to grow a huge colony of Nitrate eaters.


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

ok, is what can i do to get rid of the nitrate besides water changes?
and acclimation, my dragon goby is currently freshwater. how gradual should i adjust him?


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Jason4390 said:


> ok, is what can i do to get rid of the nitrate besides water changes?
> and acclimation, my dragon goby is currently freshwater. how gradual should i adjust him?


More water changes, or Denitrator or Sulpher Denitrator.
Do water changes every week adding more salt every time you do it, your in no hurry.


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

just did that today, very little salt thought. there's an albino frog in there i need to get rid of first...


----------



## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

Was reading through the thread and was wondering how your cycle was going on your tank? While reading through the posts a thought came to mind regarding seeing nitrates early in your cycle. Are you using tap water or ro/di water? If you are using tap water have you tested the parameters of your tap water? It is possible to have a nitrate reading on your tap water. As others have said patience is the main key in this hobby, as I have heard from others nothing good in this hobby ever happens fast.


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

Starting to see small traces of nitrites. Haven't tested in a few days though. Gonna test tomorrow. It was tap water and no, I didn't test before I added it to my tank. Sounds like a possibility of nitrates already present. check my log for updates on my parameters


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

Ok, so my ammonia is very low at 0.25 ppm. I'm guessing the nitrite at 5 ppm is the spike I'm looking for and my nitrate is going sky high at 60 ppm. I've added another "healthy" dose of pure ammonia. Any estimates on how long before it's fully cycled? Also, how much ammonia and how quickly will it dissipate when the cycle is complete? Maybe the amount of fish will be a variable? I will only be adding the dragon goby at first and probably no additional fish for at least a week or two.


----------



## Tazman (Jan 15, 2012)

The dose of ammonia should be half of what you initially dosed to..now that you have the nitrite spike.

Do not worry about the nitrates for now, this will be taken care of with a big water change ONCE cycling is complete.

There is no way to tell how long you have left before the cycle is complete. If you have been consistent in adding the same dose of ammonia from the start up to now... then once you see ZERO ammonia, your initial dose should be gone within 24 hours.

Wait for ammonia and nitrite to drop to zero (they will if you have not disturbed the cycle at all), once you see both at zero, wait 24 hours, dose your initial amount again and wait another 24 hours. If after that time you still get zero readings but high nitrates, cycle complete.

Once the cycle is complete, you need to do a large 70-80% water change to reduce the nitrates...you should see a 50% reduction in nitrates after the water changes, your aim is for 20ppm or less. Wait 24 hours before testing for nitrates and if they are still above 40ppm then perform a smaller 50% water change.

You are nearly there, so hang in and do NOT start rushing things now.


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

I haven't been very consistent in the ammonia dosing. just adding some whenever necessary to keep ppm above 2. Initial dose was very large to achieve 5 ppm. How much pure ammonia daily for the 75g tank? Also, what's the best method as far as keeping the salinity stable in a water change? I was thinking treated water left to dissolve over night in 5 gallon buckets, but I only have 4. How much does the salinity and temp have to change to hurt the beneficial bacteria? When my canister filter comes in can I just hook it up seed it with the filter pads or bio-wheel from my HOB filter? Will this cause another cycle or any spikes in any toxins?


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

no help :-(


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Jason4390 said:


> I haven't been very consistent in the ammonia dosing. just adding some whenever necessary to keep ppm above 2. Initial dose was very large to achieve 5 ppm. How much pure ammonia daily for the 75g tank? Also, what's the best method as far as keeping the salinity stable in a water change? I was thinking treated water left to dissolve over night in 5 gallon buckets, but I only have 4. How much does the salinity and temp have to change to hurt the beneficial bacteria? When my canister filter comes in can I just hook it up seed it with the filter pads or bio-wheel from my HOB filter? Will this cause another cycle or any spikes in any toxins?


 I got help for ya, but your dosing. My advise is to stop dosing, you can just mess up the tank. Just be patient, that won't hurt anyone or anything.
When you get you rHOB go ahead and throw it in, that won't hurt either. But my suggestion about a HOB Filter is, don't use it, that'll just mess up yor tank also, so thats not what you were getting after, thats why i haven't posted.


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

If I stop dosing completely won't that eliminate the food source for the ammonia eating bacteria, and in turn eliminate the food source for the nitrite eating bacteria (after it comes down from the sky high levels)? As for the filtration, a HOB rated for 70 gallons is the current, and only filter I've been running. My canister filter came in, all I'm waiting on is the bio-glass type ceramic media to put in it. I want to eventually get rid of the HOB all together, how when I know when to take it off after the canister is hooked up and running?


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Its all your choice, I just out lined what to do, its all up to you. I run a 240g tank, NO FILTER, NO HOB. You have dosed enough to get your system what it need to go through a cycle. If you wanted it to cycle right now, you could have used Fully Cured Live Rock. Next, when you add fishy slowly over weeks, after your Trates have come down under 40, those fish will keep the life long cycle going, and keep the bio logical load where it needs to be.
Live Rock organisms filter your water when you have enough of it, thats why its recommended to get 1.5lbs per gallon of water. HOB filters are not counted as flow in a tank, they just return water, and its usually just across the surface of the tank. The media which you plan on using is going to cause you a headache inthe Nitrate department, as it will trap and collect debre in it. they need cleaned out, which everyone knows, but what you don' tknow is you usually have to clean out the media of its collected debre, and by doing that, most kill the bacteria growing in it.


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

What's the going price of live rock? Closest place I've found it is about 2 hours away and costs about $6 a pound...


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Jason4390 said:


> What's the going price of live rock? Closest place I've found it is about 2 hours away and costs about $6 a pound...


 That's a pretty good price. Mine $8 a lb.


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

Anything specific I should look for in live rock? I was thinking small pieces to be stacked in cave formations for the 3 bumblebee gobies (that I got today!). I've acclimated them to the 10 gallon tank w/ my violet goby and they seem to be doing good(SG at around 1.0015 or so). So I plan to acclimate all 4 and add them after my final water change to the 75 gallon. Excitement is starting to build again, after it died during the cycling :-D


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

My nitrites have peaked at 5ppm+ and will not coome down! What do I do to facilitate the nitrite consuming bacteria's growth?


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Patience, Nitrates will grow on their own to eat up the Nitrites.


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

Nitrates consume nitrites?


----------



## Tazman (Jan 15, 2012)

The cycle is Ammonia gets converted to Nitrites which then get converted to Nitrates.

You want to have ammonia and Nitrite at zero and nitrates below 20ppm.


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Jason4390 said:


> Nitrates consume nitrites?


Yup. Without the long drawn out chemical explanation.


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

But there's bacteria that does this, correct? On another note, my acclimation tank is approximately SG 1.002. Can I safely drive the SG to 1.010 to match my cycling tank without any adverse effects? I read somewhere that the beneficial bacteria change/are different at lower salinities than they are higher up on the SG scale.


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle and cycling. Methods for ammonia, nitrite removal.

You can jump up the salinity to where yoiu need it to be inthe QT. Acclimation or QT tank? If your using it as a Medical tank for Parasites, I'd leave the SG at 1.009, or in a state of Hyposalinity.
Aquarium Ich: Ichthyophthirius multifilis & Cryptocaryon treatment, identification, life cycle.


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

As of now it's both acclimation and quarantine, as the new fish I've been adding are freshwater that I'm acclimating to my brackish setup. So far it's a violet goby, 3 bumblebee gobies, and 2 freshwater flounder.


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

My nitrites have stayed extremely high for about 2 weeks now, is this normal? How long does it take for the nitrite consuming bacteria to build up? I have 6 fish eagerly awaiting their new home!!!


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Jason4390 said:


> My nitrites have stayed extremely high for about 2 weeks now, is this normal? How long does it take for the nitrite consuming bacteria to build up? I have 6 fish eagerly awaiting their new home!!!


 Your Nitrates are the bacteria your looking for to eat Nitrites. What is that reading?


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

Nitrates are off the charts... a solid colored red is 160. Mine is a DEEP blood red...
:/


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

partial water change?


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Jason4390 said:


> partial water change?


 :thumbsup:


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

any tips on saltwater water changes? i got 4 5gallon buckets of treated tap water with SG ranging from 1.006-1.011 sitting in my basemeant for a day or so... any tips or tricks to help me with toting heavy buckets up my flight of stairs?!?


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Jason4390 said:


> any tips on saltwater water changes? i got 4 5gallon buckets of treated tap water with SG ranging from 1.006-1.011 sitting in my basemeant for a day or so... any tips or tricks to help me with toting heavy buckets up my flight of stairs?!?


 Yikes. Be careful?


----------



## Tazman (Jan 15, 2012)

If the buckets are able to take the weight, tie a piece of rope around the handles and strap it over your shoulder, *NOT* across your neck though!, This will take some of the weight off your arms.


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

Didn't really mean how to get them upstairs. More along the lines of how long to let them dissolve, how important is temp when there's no fish, etc. Anyways, just did the 20 gallon water change. Going to measure levels when I get up. This past week I've upped the salt in my 10 gallon (home to dragon goby, 3 BBG's, and 2 flounders) another 1.002. So it's at about SG 1.004.


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

Ok, new readings in the 75g brackish are: Ammonia 0, nitrite 2, nitrate 80, and ph 7.8... hopefully I will see the nitrites drop off soon!!!


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

ok, now that looks right in a cycling tank.


----------



## SEAWEED54 (Mar 8, 2012)

you know after reading this tread I'm a bit confused 
I have a brackish setup for over 25 years ,
When it was set up all I used was crushed coral substraight 
and a few corals and a chunk of rock from the beach , adding in just a small hand full of aquarium salt every so often after water changes , because the coral does the rest , the tank never was cycled other than the 3 days before I added my first fish , I never had 1 fish die until about 10 years later , never had 1 issue with nitrate ,ammonia or ph problems


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

SEAWEED54 said:


> you know after reading this tread I'm a bit confused
> I have a brackish setup for over 25 years ,
> When it was set up all I used was crushed coral substraight
> and a few corals and a chunk of rock from the beach , adding in just a small hand full of aquarium salt every so often after water changes , because the coral does the rest , the tank never was cycled other than the 3 days before I added my first fish , I never had 1 fish die until about 10 years later , never had 1 issue with nitrate ,ammonia or ph problems


 From your description of the whole thing.....You got lucky. Brackish water is between 1.005-1.010. Its not a guessing game. Also, what do you think cycled your water for yoiu so fast?? All the biologicals in the dead coral, and rock yoiu added. And when you say corla does the rest, what does that mean?? The rock is the biological filter in that tank, althoguh the coral will grow some, not nearly what the rocks account for.


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

Wish me a speedy cycle! I'm anxious now, hopefully it won't be much longer. I plan on adding live rock as time goes on. I may eventually turn this setup into full marine. I just cann't wait to see those nitrites drop off!!! Do you still recommend no further doses?


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

yup, no further dosing is needed, your ammonia has been takin down by the Nitrites, now your just waiting for the Nitrates to take those out.


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

Ok, that still confuses me a little and contradicts a few things I've read, but that's what I'll do! So, my tank will be fully cycled when my nitrites drop to 0? Or should I does a small amount of ammonia after they reach 0 to see how fast it gets processed?


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

by the way, will you check out my video Reefing Madness? the 2nd one without a thumbnail is the better of the two. Better camera than the 1st one that was on a cell phone. I would love input and ideas from you and anyone else that happens to read this!!!


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Jason4390 said:


> Ok, that still confuses me a little and contradicts a few things I've read, but that's what I'll do! So, my tank will be fully cycled when my nitrites drop to 0? Or should I does a small amount of ammonia after they reach 0 to see how fast it gets processed?


 Cycle= complete when, Ammonia and Nitrites are 0, and you can add livestock when your Nitrates are under 40.


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Dragon Goby home - 75 gallon Brackish fish tank

Look at this pic? I didn't see any vids on your Brackish tank, found pics though.


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

No, it was attached to my other tank. Acclimation/Quarantine Tank - 10 gallon Brackish fish tank


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

My tank is reading 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites! The nitrates are very high again, somewhere in between I'm guessing to be 80-160. API gets kinda vague in the higher nitrate levels My tank should be cycled, right? I'm preparing for my last big water change. What percentage of water should this water change should be? I've got 4 5 gallon buckets, 2 2 gallon buckets, and a 13 gallon trash can all with bubble stones in them to dissolve the salt.


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

WOW, thats high. 50% will knock them in half.


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

Yes, very high. But my tank is cycled, right? I've bought an additional 30 gallon tub. It's got a marine mix dissolving right now. I plan on lowering the SG in the 75g tank on this massive water change to get closer to the 1.004 in my other tank. then bring it up slowly once the fish are in. I just need to get them in there soon. I just bought a ropefish (he was bought in freshwater!) that is in a bucket(with a lid after a few attempted escapes!!!) with a heater and a drip coming from my 10 gallon of SG 1.004. So the grand total of fish is 1 Dragon Goby, 3 Bumblebee gobies, 2 Freshwater Flounders, and the Ropefish(as soon as he's acclimated). That's a lot of fish to have in a 10 gallon. That's why I'm in a rush to get them in the 75g. If I lower the SG in the 75g tank to around 1.006, and acclimate the fish over a few hours from 1.004, they should be fine, right?


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

THats alot of fish to throw in tnto a newly cycled tank. Hope your tank doesn't go into a mini cycle with all those fish. But to answer your question, yes, your tnak is done cycling, just knock those Trates down to 40, and you'll be ok adding fish at that time.


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

Did a massive water change and got the nitrates down to about 20. slowly acclimated the fish, one species at a time, to make up for the 1.0015 SG difference and any other variations in the water. All the fish are very small, and seem to be doing great. I realize that it's a lot of fish, but I'm prepared to do numerous water changes if the need be. I will be monitoring ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels closely. I have about 20 gallons of water brewing right now... I will get videos and some more pics soon. Had to take out one of the powerheads also... Too much current, the poor little Bumblebees were getting blown around like leaves. I've got it settled down now. Current is still strong enough to keep smaller particles in constant motion around to bottom of the tank.


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Right on. Sounds like you got it under control.


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

Thanks for all your help. I believe following your advice got me through this a lot better than I could've alone. It's funny though, the tank looks the same as it does a month ago. A little differently decorated and that's it. Everyone's found hiding holes except for the flounders, they just disappeared under the sand, lol. Maybe in a few weeks I'll get the archer pair I want to give me some fish that don't hide on the bottom.


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

:thumbsup:


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Jason4390 said:


> Thanks for all your help. I believe following your advice got me through this a lot better than I could've alone. It's funny though, the tank looks the same as it does a month ago. A little differently decorated and that's it. Everyone's found hiding holes except for the* flounders*, they just disappeared under the sand, lol. Maybe in a few weeks I'll get the archer pair I want to give me some fish that don't hide on the bottom.


 More than one? In a 75g? With your salinity at what now?


----------



## Jason4390 (Feb 22, 2012)

SG is approximately 1.005. Didn't include that they are freshwater flounders. They still get to be a decent size, at about 5 inches. Kind of worried about him being a fin nipper though...


----------



## Reefing Madness (Jun 26, 2011)

Jason4390 said:


> SG is approximately 1.005. Didn't include that they are freshwater flounders. They still get to be a decent size, at about 5 inches. Kind of worried about him being a fin nipper though...


 AH, got ya now. Whew. Had me going there.:thumbsup:


----------

