# Newbie running into MAJOR problems...



## Cheknnudol (Apr 13, 2009)

Alrighty, first off hello! This is my first post to this forum and man could I use some advice! My experience with fish is so minimal and my boyfriend and I have just invested in making this a new couple's hobby. Sorry ahead of time that the post is so long but I guess I need advice beginning to end...

This all started a couple of weeks ago when he decided he really wanted some fish, and inherited a 3 gal tank from his soon-to-be sister-in-law (tank, filter, air pump incl.). I was out of town at the time but apparently he bought a blue gourami and guppy for the tank and used super filtered water from the dispenser at the grocery store to fill it up. The gourami reportedly mauled the guppy (thus earning its name - Jaffar) so we opted for some hardier fish: an angel fish and a black molly named token. After floating for appropriate lengths of time we let the newcomers into the tank, but the gourami went after the angelfish. Back to the pet store. Swapped the angelfish for an african dwarf frogs, the gourami was still being feisty, so we gave up on it and traded it in for a spotted catfish. This is where the trouble starts.

Summary: 3 gal Tank with one black molly (Token), one spotted catfish (Meowth) and one african dwarf frog (Kevin) with a 25 watt heater and 1-3gal whisper filter with bio bags.

A few days ago we noticed what looked like a bite out of Token's lip (a white spot near his mouth that seemed like a chunk of flesh missing rather than a cottony something or another like we found Ich and Flex to be described as after some research). It started getting some stringy things off of it but we didn't think anything of it having had minimal fish experience before and assuming it was something food related. Yesterday he started acting really strangely, however. Chillin at the bottom of the tank or at the top rather than zooming around like his usual self. White thread-like stuff seems to be attached to his body and his tail looks shredded to pieces, though he wont use it or any other of his fins besides the arm ones (like i said ... fish experience minimal) for swimming. 

Today while at the store to grab something for him (at the time we thought it was Ich) my boyfriend fell in love with the ghost catfish and another angelfish, so we decided to go ahead and convert a frog tank we had into a new aquarium. We filled the new tank with treated water from what I think was a Glacier water machine at the grocery store, as well as about a gallon of water from their old tank (boyfriend said something about retaining some of their beneficial bacteria?). After heating this new water we floated the new fish and ziplocced (god that sounds horrible) the old fish into individual baggies to float them in the new tank as well. After getting everything we needed to deck out the new tank, the new fish, melafix for the Ich, and what I guess is a comprehensive water testing kit, we've come to the status described below:


1. Size of aquarium (# of gallons) : 
10Gal

2. Is your aquarium setup freshwater or brackish water? 
I'm not really sure what this means, sorry!

3. How long the aquarium has been set up? 
Less than a day, though the previous had been set up for a couple of weeks

4. What fish and how many are in the aquarium (species are important to know)
1-Angelfish, 1-Black Molly, 1-Spotted Catfish, 1-African Dwarf Frog, 2-Ghost Catfish
5. Are there live plants in the aquarium?
A 4" anubias(sp?) plant that we bought with the new tank pump and heater

6. What temperature is the tank water currently?
The temperature strip we borrowed from the smaller tank puts it at between 83-87 degrees though earlier it noted an even higher temp than that. Our heater has been turned all the way down now for several hours though so I find it hard for this to be correct.

7. What make/model filter are you using?
Whisper 10Gal with Biobags

8. Are you using a CO2 unit?
Since I don't know what this is I guess not.

9. Does your aquarium receive natural sunlight at any given part of the day?
Only as much as comes in through the tiny basement windows, so not much.

10. When did you perform your last water exchange, and how much water was changed?
All but one gallon of the current water is brand new

11. How often do you perform water changes?
Weekly at a minimum

12. How often and what foods do you feed your fish?
We had been hiding dried blood worms in a tic tac container for the dwarf frog as he didn't seem to like fighting the catfish for the sinking wafers, then dropping a pinch of tropical fish flakes for the molly. However, the blood worms ended up being a ton of trouble and the dwarf frog turned out to hold his ground against the cat fish when he was hungry, so we just stepped back to that. Now that we have all of the new fish though it's expected we'll be dropping a pinch of the blood worms (ghost catfish/african dwarf frog), a small pinch of the tropical flakes (angel fish and molly - if he makes it) and a sinking wafer for the spotted catfish.

13. What type of lighting are you using and how long is it kept on?
In the smaller tank we had been using an incandescent light during day time, then turned it off before bed. The larger tank has a flourescent aquarium light in it on the same schedule.

14. What specific concerns bring you here at this time?
The chemistry in our tank is BONKERS and one of our fish seems to be in deep trouble 

15. What are your water parameters? Test your pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.
pH: 6.6, Ammonia: 0.25, Nitrite: 5.0 (yikes!), Nitrate: 30 (eep!)

16. What test kit are you using and is it liquid or test strips?
API Freshwater Master Test Kit (liquid)

17. When was the last time you bought a fish and how did they behave while in the pet store tank?
We bought three of them today and the larger of the glass cats as well as the angel behaved fine. I wasn't watching when the pet store clerk grabbed the smaller of the glass cats, though none in the tank looked to be sickly/lethargic. The black molly looked great in the store... we picked him specifically because he was large and active (to keep his own against the vicious gourami). The african dwarf frog did what he did best and hid under a rock in the store tank. The catfish was super active... against, we picked him specifically for that purpose.


As I researched more over dinner tonight I thought that our molly more than likely had Flex than Ich, though that was after we dropped a dose of melafix into the tank. We're going to the store tomorrow to see about perhaps getting some kind of nitrite filter even if it's temporary, and investing in a digital thermometer. If you guys so advise we'll also be looking for Maracyn, I suppose. What can I do about these water conditions? How can I save my poor little Token?


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

hello and welcome.
:shock: you've got some things going on in there.
however don't panic,and don't worry about not knowing much,you'll soon
catch on,we all started out at the begining in this hobby ok. 
not all love and happiness i have to give you..sorry.
the fish you have for a new tank are not hardy enough.they will struggel with the toxins
that you have in the water.
here is a link for you to read through about the cycle.
http://www.fishforum.com/freshwater-aquariums/aquarium-cycle-252/
if you buy a dechlorinator from the store,you can use tap water.
water changes will be needed to help the fish.
do not touch your filter while the tank is in it's cycle,your bacteria need to grow and
go through their changes,also no to disturbing the gravel either.
keep food to a minimum,make sure all that you give them has been eaten,
if there is any left on the bottom of the tank remove it.
let me know how you get on with the artical provided,
and don't worry about asking questions,there are plenty of us around to help.


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## Cheknnudol (Apr 13, 2009)

Willow, thanks SO much for your response and that link. I'd heard the term Cycle several times poking around for Token, but none of the articles (supposed 'explanations') were very descriptive - mostly just one liners. I really appreciate that. 

I see that it's the new tank being problematic now, but could the old tank have actually been an instigator for Token's illness? That tank had been used previously and while my boyfriend presumably cleaned it out, I found last night that he hadn't swapped the Bio Bag in the filter of that tank between his sister-in-law-to-be's use of it and ours. From what that article says, it's the filter in part that accumulates colonies of these bacteria (or perhaps just the first bacterium mentioned in the article? I'm a bit unclear on that.); is it possible that her fish had established even small colonies of these necessary organisms to help out when we first got the tank? If so, these water parameters aren't really helpful in diagnosing Token are they? Also, I'm not sure the boyfriend cleaned the tank all too well (we inherited a snail which I found out later was the only survivor of an infestation that had led to the removal of the tank in the first place) - is it possible some bacteria had stuck around on the tank walls and whatnot?

You said that water changes are needed to help the fish; is there anything I can do or buy for them to help them through this mess we've created? The first three tank inhabitants we are really really attached to, and the newest additions are becoming family favorites. It would be a shame if we lost any of them, really. While we're a bit short on cash at the moment (poor college students just getting back from spring break and having already shelled out plenty on the new tank set up), I'm not going to skimp out on these little guys. Any solutions or possible facilitators for this situation would be much appreciated, and more points and gold stars to the person with the cheapest effective input 

Oh one more thing: Should I stop the Melafix? Not buy any Maracyn? Even though the tank is the serious problem at this point, I would prefer not to let Token continue to deteriorate if I can help it. We haven't returned the smaller tank yet and it would be possible (though not exactly ideal for space reasons) to move him back there as a small hospital tank to receive any potential remedies as an only fish, should that be a preferable route for application.

The other fish seem to be behaving much more lively as they get accustomed to their new tank. Yesterday was all hiding and stress and not eating (yes! we removed the uneaten food for once! I think this may have been a serious problem in the smaller tank. I must learn not to indulge the "om nom nom" face that Meowth makes at me.) but everybody is out and swimming about now as I wake up with the exception of our lazy frog and poor little Token. I will test our water again tonight so the timing is a bit more regular unless you think it would be a good idea to do one this morning as well as one this evening. Yes/No? 

Again, thanks a ton for your response!


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

hi
you are very welcome.
fish do beg and they make you feel bad for not giving into them 
but don't worry,you'll get hardened to it,otherwise they will eat all day !!
your tank is fresh water,brackish means it has salt mixwd in,which your s does not.
hang on,as i need more help from others to help you.


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

Welcome to the forum! You sure jumped into the hobby head first. I did the same thing.  Not sure I can add anything to what Willow has already covered. The link on cycling is informative and I wish when I started I would have had that info as I would have done a fishless cycle. I did exactly as you did; I got a tank and threw in a bunch of fish and then started asking my questions. 

Since your tank is not cycled you'll need to keep on top of your water parameters and do water changes every time you get a reading for ammonia and/or nitrates. When I was going thru this procedure I was sometimes doing water changes every day for days on end. Because you have so many fish in a small tank, until the tank is cycled you'll most likely see ammonia/nitrite readings on a daily basis. Due to the small tank size and the fact that the tank is overstocked it'll take a lengthly amount of time for your tank to finally cycle, if at all. (This was my experience and I ended the battle by making the switch from a 6gl to a 100gl) 

I'm sorry to be the party pooper but the fish you have chosen are not appropriate for a 10g. An adult angel is quite large and requires an absolute minimum of 20gl. Tall tanks are the preferred style for these fish. I wouldn't keep one in less than a 40g tall. Ghost cats are a shoaling fish and prefer to be in groups of four or more. If it was my tank (and it's not!) I'd rethink the setup and consider rehoming some of the fish. This would be the "cheapest & effective" solution. 

I'm not sure what is wrong with Token without seeing a picture. What type of test kit are you using?


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

White thread-like stuff seems to be attached to his body 

kymmie do you think that this could be columnarius ?


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

It sounds like it could be but it could also easily be something else. I hate to hazard a guess as I've no experience with columnaris. Ask me about ich; I know all about that.  Hopefully someone with experience with this type of disease will chime in with their knowledge. In the meantime I was reading this:

Fish Disease - Columnaris

Not sure if this link helps...:-?


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## Cheknnudol (Apr 13, 2009)

Columnaris is what we ended up thinking it was after all the research we did yesterday, which is why I was considering picking up the Maracyn-Plus from the store later. In what little expertise I have, I'm fairly certain having seen his condition that this is what he has, though I'm unsure what the best route for treatment is. Isolation and antibiotics? Treat the whole tank? I don't want to muss up the water chemistry too much with any meds we try for him but at the same time stressing him with another move seems risky.

Thanks for everyone's input and we'll take a look at our options with the tank size. All of these fish are fairly small at the moment (The body of the angel, no fins, is probably the size of a dime if not smaller and the next largest is the spotted cat which is probably only 2 - 3") so we have a little while to consider things.

ETA: We're using an API Master Test Kit for Freshwater, and I've just been informed that the boyfriend has a 20 gal tank on hand but he was saving it for the snake he wants to get. Would it be preferable to move them in there? I'm not sure how much larger of a tank we can accomodate here, though I will probably be setting up a 10 or 20 gallon of my own at my place which may inherit the glass cats. If we switch everyone to the 20gal that would have to be somewhat of a long-term solution as any money towards tanks at that point would have to go to a replacement terrarium for the snake-to-come. If we skip that and go straight to saving up for a larger aquarium, though, I feel like we could get something to accomodate all of our little guys by the time they completely outgrow this one. What would the smallest recommended tank size be for all six fish?

I'm not entirely sure how to judge how much space fish need either (obviously)... each of ours seems to have its own hiding space and swimming space and only interact with one another when they so choose. It's not crowded like the pet store tanks. Any insight on this?

Further ETA: I will do my best to grab some pictures later on today of both Token and the tank itself, though my camera isn't with me at the moment and it will have to wait until after work and school. Hopefully you guys will stay tuned to help me out  Thanks!


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

i was just thinking..............is your sister still running any tanks ?
if she is,get her to donate some filter media or even some gravel from her tanks,
that will help your cycle.


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

Because this disease is highly contagious I'd forgo isolation and treat the entire tank. If it was me I'd use antibiotics and hope for the best. :-?


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## Cheknnudol (Apr 13, 2009)

I was under the impression that columnaris was an ever-present bacteria causing infections in only injured/stressed fish... is this not the case? 

The only tank that the brother's fiancee had was the one she gave us to start up as far as I know though I can ask if she has anymore running. She was talking about switching to a salt water set up though. How would that affect things? If she has a saltwater aquarium running, I doubt it's cycled yet either since we would have started either at the same time or her after us. If it is cycled (by some miracle) then would we still even want anything from it? 

I attempted again this morning to feed a little bit as the angelfish was rummaging around the bottom looking hungry. It spat out the couple of tropical flakes I tried, but took to dried blood worms okay.Nobody else came up for food and nobody touched the sinking wafer I dropped in for Meowth, the spotted catfish. I understand that the glass cats will more than likely need live or frozen food (at least that's what I read), or is it that everyone's still stressed from the move? Last thing I need is starving fishies after I spent so much time spoiling them rotten.


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

Yes, it's true that it's an ever-present bacteria and is most likely too infect fish that are stressed. Maintaining good water quality keeps fish from being stressed and less susceptible to infection. Because your tank isn't cycled the water quality is an issue here, along with the fact that the tank is overstocked, which also stresses fish. You've got alot of issues as far as stressors that your fish are dealing with. :-(


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Aunt kymmie has hit the nail right on the head. The "new tank syndrome" is extremely stressful on fish. You have too many (or the wrong kind) fish in the tank as an earlier member mentioned, but in a new uncycled tank this is a real disaster.

I'll leave the disease to others more familiar with this, the main issue for me is getting your tank habitable for the fish.

Buy a small bottle of "Cycle" from the lfs and dose the tank as on the label, one capful (which is 10g, your tank size). Repeat this after one week. The "Cycle" is active bacteria that will greatly quicken the establishment of bacteria in the tank and relieve stress on the fish that are left. Perform daily water tests for ammonia and nitrite; these should drop to 0 fairly soon if you use the Cycle. Nitrate at this point is irrelevant. Depending upon the test results, I would not do water changes beyond weekly, and then about 25% of the tank and do not vacuum the gravel as you don't want to remove the good bacteria that are colonizing it. And do not clean the filter for a few weeks, same reason.

Do not add anything from other tanks. You may introduce more disease from freshwater, and anything from a saltwater tank is always no. The seeding idea behind the transfer of water or filter material from another tank is correct, but in this case you have problems in your tank that do not need to be worsened. The "Cycle' is the seed for the bacteria and I have used it and it works.

Do not add any more fish to this tank, that will only make it even worse. In my view there is a good chance the molly will not survive, and the others may not either if the bacteria cycle is not immediately established.


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## Cheknnudol (Apr 13, 2009)

Alright I'm back from my breakfast meeting and thanks a ton for all the great info you guys! I'm just waiting on my boyfriend to get back and we'll leave to the store for some Cycle, Maracyn (even if it's not for use in this particular instance it would be nice to have on hand), and MAYBE a 50gal heater since I just came across an excellent deal on a 50gal on craigslist with filter and pumps!  Things are looking up! Assuming the craigslist transaction goes through alright and we get that 50gal tank today, what should my first objective be after cleaning it? I want to set this one up right and DEFINITELY want the fish happy in a large area.

I definitely had no intention of adding anymore fish to the 10gal tank though Byron. I think my statement about moving the ghost cats to a separate tank might have confused you, unless you were just laying a general statement of advice out there  Either way, good advice all around!

Thanks everybody!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Cheknnudol said:


> Alright I'm back from my breakfast meeting and thanks a ton for all the great info you guys! I'm just waiting on my boyfriend to get back and we'll leave to the store for some Cycle, Maracyn (even if it's not for use in this particular instance it would be nice to have on hand), and MAYBE a 50gal heater since I just came across an excellent deal on a 50gal on craigslist with filter and pumps!  Things are looking up! Assuming the craigslist transaction goes through alright and we get that 50gal tank today, what should my first objective be after cleaning it? I want to set this one up right and DEFINITELY want the fish happy in a large area.
> 
> I definitely had no intention of adding anymore fish to the 10gal tank though Byron. I think my statement about moving the ghost cats to a separate tank might have confused you, unless you were just laying a general statement of advice out there  Either way, good advice all around!
> 
> Thanks everybody!


The "no more fish" was general, but added because in the original post you mentioned going to the lfs for something and your bf seing a nice fish so you bought it, or similar. We all have to resist those temptations unless we have the proper setup at home. And I certainly know how tempting it is to want to get some fish in a new tank, I still have that problem after 20 years of fish keeping.

As for doing it right with your 50g, that's easy. There was a link to a short article on cycling in an earlier post, but after reading it I think it needs a bit more explanation particularly on the timeline for all these processes, and when one can safely add fish and how. Over the past few weeks I seem to have posted quite a bit about cycling in response to several questions, so maybe its time I put it all together in one place. I'll work on that, but in the meantime, I hope you can get the Cycle and save your fish.

One thought on the heater, it is wise to buy the best. Heaters can malfunction, and you have to ask what is it worth if you lose some or all of your fish because the heater overheats or fails to heat. I've had it happen, so have many others. And with larger tanks like a 50g, it is better to have two heaters, one at each end. The heaters work less often and therefore perform longer and usually better. Two 100w heaters would be good in a 50g. The higher wattage heaters also have a better track record. I have two 200w heaters in my 70g tank.

Byron.


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## Cheknnudol (Apr 13, 2009)

Well after several trips to multiple pet stores, we've come home with Maracyn, Cycle, and a new thermometer. While the old temperature strip is reading somewhere between 83 and 87, the new digital puts the water around 76. BIG difference that I'm glad we now have a handle on. Also when we arrived, we found the smallest of our glass cats laying on his side on the bottom of the tank, gasping. I'm not sure what could have hit him so fast - do you think it's related to Token's illness or could it have just been the stress of the move? 

I've put an offer in on the 50 gallon and hopefully we will have a response from the seller within the next few hours. It comes with an under-gravel filter and a couple of air pumps but I'm not sure what kind these are or what good if any they will be. The photo makes the filter plate look much smaller than the tank by comparison which leads me to believe it is probably not meant for a tank that large. Would I need to buy an additional 50gal filter? Or would a smaller one in conjunction with this one be sufficient? 

As far as heaters go, I was planning on doing one at each end since it's just so darn wide (so yay! we agree!), though I was wondering, similarly, if two heaters graded for smaller tanks would be sufficient or if I would need two heaters rated for 50gallons.

Here's a tricky bit that I really shouldn't be thinking about yet as far as I'm concerned, but the boyfriend REALLY wants a black ghost knife fish because he saw some on sale for $expensive at petsmart. They get fairly large, I find, and I'm not sure if it would be 1) too large for a 50 gallon tank, or 2) a threat to the other fish in the tank as they would be much smaller over time (I've found stories preaching their peacefulness as well as others warning of their predatory behavior). Thoughts on the addition of one of these to the tank after a while?

ETA: Just received a phone call from the tank seller and heading out to purchase it now. woohoo!!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Cheknnudol said:


> Well after several trips to multiple pet stores, we've come home with Maracyn, Cycle, and a new thermometer. While the old temperature strip is reading somewhere between 83 and 87, the new digital puts the water around 76. BIG difference that I'm glad we now have a handle on. Also when we arrived, we found the smallest of our glass cats laying on his side on the bottom of the tank, gasping. I'm not sure what could have hit him so fast - do you think it's related to Token's illness or could it have just been the stress of the move?
> 
> I've put an offer in on the 50 gallon and hopefully we will have a response from the seller within the next few hours. It comes with an under-gravel filter and a couple of air pumps but I'm not sure what kind these are or what good if any they will be. The photo makes the filter plate look much smaller than the tank by comparison which leads me to believe it is probably not meant for a tank that large. Would I need to buy an additional 50gal filter? Or would a smaller one in conjunction with this one be sufficient?
> 
> ...


 
I hope you put the Cycle in the tank before you left. I'd bet the glass cat is expiring due to the ammonia and nitrite, whichever. A "move" from one tank to another is normally not that traumatic--provided the tanks are fairly equal in terms of water parameters (temp, pH, hardness) and are established biologically. We know the 10g is not, so that is probably the cause of the fish's state. If you added Cycle it may recover.

On the heaters, no, do not buy smaller ones. The point I tried to make earlier is that the heaters are both graded for the tank, and having two means less chance of malfunction and they tend to last longer; they are going on and off less, but have to be capable of heating the water volume. The smaller-wattage heaters are not meant to have to carry so big a tank, so its not a savings, and i expect they would give out sooner.

The knifefish is an avid predator that eats fish amongst other live foods, and can be intolerant of other fish. They grow to 12 inches or larger and would need a solitary tank. This info comes from Baensch/Riehl, Aquarium Atlas, vol. 1. Regardless of what fish you eventually get, it will be 8 weeks before a new tank is cycled and biologically established for significant fish to be added.


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## aquakid (Jun 22, 2008)

Fungus maybe


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## Cheknnudol (Apr 13, 2009)

Yes, we most definitely did put the Cycle in before we left. Token is looking a teency bit better (no longer motionless, but still not swimming around much), though the glass cat did not make it. I suspect he might have been sickly when we got him, however, considering his small size (probably half that of the other glass cat we got) and some weirdness on his antennae(?). The rest of the fish and the frog seem to be in their normal state minus the not eating which I (potentially incorrectly) have been attributing to the move.

My questions regarding the under-gravel filter seem to have been glossed over. Taking a look at the box it is in, it seems to be intended for use in tanks between 40 and 60 gallons, and my boyfriend's dad says that they work by drawing debris into the bottom of the tank where bacteria break them down, sort of like a septic tank. Is this the case? If so, is this preferable to using the typical bioBag-type filtration? I really don't know any better either way. Insight would be helpful.

Now that the Cycle has been in there for a few hours now, we went ahead and retested the water to see if there were any noticable changes. Here are the results:
Ammonia - Down to 0. Woot!
pH - steady at 6.6
Nitrate - Down to 10. Better!
Nitrite - Still testing at a full fledged 5.0 

We're pretty worried about the Nitrite reading so we went ahead and changed out a gallon of the water. It's not exactly the 25% change you indicated, Byron, but it's what we can do for now. Maybe it's jumping the gun, not giving the Cycle a chance to really affect things but with Token the way he is I want to do as much as I can right now. 

It's probably me being paranoid but went ahead and tested the water that we've been putting into the tank (The supposedly awesomely filtered stuff) to make sure it's not contributing in any harmful manner. 
Here are the results of that:
Ammonia - 0
pH - 6.0, oddly enough. Isn't water supposed to be neutral at 7.0?
Nitrate - Absolutely 0
Nitrite - Absolutely 0

I guess it's just fine for fishies...

Thanks for the info on the black ghost knife... I've read up about them a bit both in article/encyclopedia form as well as tried to find some 'testimonial' type information on forums and reviews. All of it thus far has been conflicting, so I guess the next step would be to get some input from someone with extensive experience with them if there is anyone like that here on this forum. 

With the 50gallon tank, do we need to set it up completely independent of the 10 gallon tank and fill it with new water and start completely over? or can we somehow just transplant what we already have? I'm not entirely sure what cycling it by itself will achieve I guess... maybe I'm being dense. The thick and thin of it is that we don't have a whole lot of space here and a 50 gallon tank with goldfish (or whatever it is you cycle a tank with) in it for 8 weeks seems just a bit silly while the 10 gallon tears apart our CRT monitor with the magnet in its filter. Perhaps I'm sounding like I want to rush things, which to an extent is true, though please don't misunderstand that I do want to do the best I can for the fish while maintaining a certain lifestyle of my own.

Thanks again for everyone's input!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Cheknnudol said:


> Yes, we most definitely did put the Cycle in before we left. Token is looking a teency bit better (no longer motionless, but still not swimming around much), though the glass cat did not make it. I suspect he might have been sickly when we got him, however, considering his small size (probably half that of the other glass cat we got) and some weirdness on his antennae(?). The rest of the fish and the frog seem to be in their normal state minus the not eating which I (potentially incorrectly) have been attributing to the move.
> 
> 
> My questions regarding the under-gravel filter seem to have been glossed over. Taking a look at the box it is in, it seems to be intended for use in tanks between 40 and 60 gallons, and my boyfriend's dad says that they work by drawing debris into the bottom of the tank where bacteria break them down, sort of like a septic tank. Is this the case? If so, is this preferable to using the typical bioBag-type filtration? I really don't know any better either way. Insight would be helpful.
> ...


 
I tried to insert answers under your questions, but didn't work, so hope you can follow this.

I don't advocate "Cycle" as a miracle cure, it isn't, but in my experience it really does lessen the stress on fish that are suddenly placed ina biolobically uncycled setup as yours were. If the damage was not too bad, the fish may recover now that there is some relief. Time will tell.

Sorry, missed these, more concerned with saving your fish. Undergravel filters do the job, no question, but not everyone recommends them. I've usd them, formerly a lot, now never. A big problem is that the substrate of the tank is the filter media, and that is where most of the biological action occurs. Which is fine as long as the undergravel filter doesn't get plugged (the gravel becomes packed with everything it draws into itself) and the water continues to pass through. Bacteria need oxygen, and if the water flow is disrupted through the bed, the bacteria will die and anaerobic bacteria will multiply. I had a bit to say about this in another thread, forgotten which one. To cut to the chase, the anaerobic conditions will cause nitrogen gas and hydrogen sulphide to form, and then more trouble for the poor fish. Merely vacuuming the gravel does not prevent it getting plugged. Your 10g would manage OK with an undergravel, but I wouldn't myself recommend one for the 50g. I would go with an outside canister filter. If anything goes wrong in one of those, the filter is outside the tank and you can disconnect the tubes and fix it. Plus they are very efficient and effective, and give opportunity for other media in the filter should you ever want to use peat to soften the water or dolomite to harden it, etc.

The water change is OK, just don't vacuum the gravel to avoid removing the bacteria you're trying to establish. You can overdose with Cycle, in fact I would if it were me, since you have a biological problem that is hurting the remaining fish. A second capful will do no harm. The nitrite will come down not immediately but it will. I think I said before, don't worry about the nitrates. A nitrate reading under 40ppm is considered OK by many aquarists, and several say a range of 10-20 is ideal. So you're OK on that.

It would be useful to know the hardness of this water, as I suspect it probably is very soft or so "pure" it could be distilled; many bottled waters are devoid of anything. The problem then is having to add mineral to it. What is wrong with your tap water? Check the pH and test for ammonia (don't bother with nitrite and nitrate), and we may have some more advice to better handle this.

Yes, the 50g will be a new tank on its own. Set it up, substrate, plants, whatever you want in it, fill it with water (we'll look at your tap water when you've answered my earlier questions), and then you need to decide how you are goin to cycle it. As you seem to want to move the fish from the 10g into the 50, we can discuss how this can be done. For now, let's save those fish, or the question will be academic.


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## Cheknnudol (Apr 13, 2009)

Byron said:


> I don't advocate "Cycle" as a miracle cure, it isn't, but in my experience it really does lessen the stress on fish that are suddenly placed ina biolobically uncycled setup as yours were. If the damage was not too bad, the fish may recover now that there is some relief. Time will tell.


Token didn't end up making it, and now the remaining glass catfish is showing some clouding in his body and odd swimming behavior. I read that they are very sensitive to both medications and water conditions, so I doubt he will fare too well either now that he's showing symptoms.



Byron said:


> Your 10g would manage OK with an undergravel, but I wouldn't myself recommend one for the 50g. I would go with an outside canister filter. If anything goes wrong in one of those, the filter is outside the tank and you can disconnect the tubes and fix it.


Great thank you. We are considering using the under-gravel filter temporarily while we are cycling and taking that time to save up money for a new filter like the one you described as well as the new heaters; would this be inadvisable since cycling is such an integral step in the process to getting our group into the larger tank? Could it work?



Byron said:


> You can overdose with Cycle, in fact I would if it were me, since you have a biological problem that is hurting the remaining fish. A second capful will do no harm. The nitrite will come down not immediately but it will.


We went ahead and did this. Hopefully I will find time tomorrow evening to drop by and retest the water. If so, I'll post the results up here. Perhaps they will be promising.



Byron said:


> It would be useful to know the hardness of this water, as I suspect it probably is very soft or so "pure" it could be distilled; many bottled waters are devoid of anything. The problem then is having to add mineral to it. What is wrong with your tap water? Check the pH and test for ammonia (don't bother with nitrite and nitrate), and we may have some more advice to better handle this.


pH: 7.0
Ammonia: 0
I am unsure of how to test for water hardness, though I suppose I will google it and pick up whatever is necessary to. We went ahead and picked up dechlorinator, though I am unsure of how to use this and what effect it may have on fish (I assume you put it in before any fish are added?).



Byron said:


> Set it up, substrate, plants, whatever you want in it, fill it with water (we'll look at your tap water when you've answered my earlier questions), and then you need to decide how you are goin to cycle it.


Something that we were considering (as a vaguely noted above) is setting up the 50gallon tank (we have rearranged some furniture in light of the recent deaths and come to terms with the fact that we may not be able to see our television from half of the bed) with nothing really in it aside from the substrate and some decorations that were given to us with the tank itself, then putting in some zebra danios. I was planning on having a 10g zebra danio tank of my own, so these would be used to first cycle the larger tank, then be put into their own tank entirely. Could this be workable? Comments much appreciated


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

In my view,your tapwater with the use of dechlorinator such as PRIME or AMQUEL+ would be suitable for most species of fish.And being as how you are considering a larger tank than the ten gal,it will be much more economical. The two water conditioners mentioned,detoxify ammonia,chlorine,and chloramines. If the dechlorinator does not address all three,,I would not use it. 
I believe that the fish will do much better with the tapwater than the pH you posted with store bought water. I am near certain mollies would. Your plan to use zebra danios for (cycling) or allowing the tank to mature,,.although frowned on by some,will work but the fish will be subjected to considerable damage and or death if too many fish are used or the fish are overfed. For 50 gal I would use no more than six zebra danios (not giant danios) I would leave these six fish in the tank for the duration of the maturing or cycling process. I would NOT add any more fish until the tank 's water parameters read zero=ammonia,zero=nitrites and you have some detectable nitrAtes. These readings should be taken every couple days during the cycling process to ensure that the ammonia and nitrite levels are kept below 0.25 on API freshwater master kit.You can help keep these levels low by feeding the six danios a tiny pinch of food once a day or every other day.The more you feed,,the more they poop,and that food which isn't eaten will surely cause ammonia levels to rise. Were it me,,(and it ain't) I would feed the fish every other day and only what I actually see them eat in one minute. You can increase the feedings after the tank has matured or (cycled)but for now ,very small and few feedings will help keep the fish safe from toxins that are caused by overfeeding and or overstocking.You must test the water as mentioned every couple days. And perform water changes of 20 percent if levels of ammonia,and or nitrites become dangerous. Course this can be avoided by feeding and stocking as suggested.Six zebra danios would not create lethal levels of toxins in 50 gal so long as no more fish are added until tank has matured or cycled,,and fish are not ovefed.To do otherwise,, will mean damage to fish and frequent (maybe daily) water changes to keep the fish alive.I have done what you are contemplating and never worried bout testing the water until nearly three weeks,and then I was testing for Nitrates to indicate that the biological bacteria was being established. But ..Fish were few,feedings were small and every two days. In that way, no frequent water changes or testing was needed. But if it pleases you feel free to test frequently.If you don't start with too many fish,too large of fish,, innappropriate fish, and you don't over feed ,, then you will have few problems.To do otherwise ,invites them.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I concur with everything 1077 has suggested for cycling the 50g, with one addition. When you add the zebra danios to the new 50g, use Cycle to quickstart the bacteria and lessen the stress on the fish even more.

I also agree there is nothing wrong with your tap water. In my view, it is better than using the other. First, it is readily available and less expensive. Second, it has good parameters for the fish, including (probably) trace minerals that would have to be added to the other water. Just use a good conditioner.

Now to your questions in your last post.

I would not recommend setting up the 50g with an undergravel filter and then disconnecting it later when you get a canister filter. To do that you would have to tear the tank apart and start over; I've done it. I explained previously that bacteria colonize the filter and substrate, and once established they need constant oxygen to survive. If you discontinue that supply of oxygen--which is what would happen if you turned off/disconnected the undergravel filter and stopped the water flow through it--the bacteria will die from oxygen and food starvation and then you have a mess of anaerobic conditions in the gravelbed that would have to be torn up. Do it right from the start to avoid more fish loss and frustration.

I wouldn't worry much about hardness, with a pH of 7 that probably isn't an issue. I was connecting your tap water with the bottled stuff, thinking the tap might be a problem, but its not. However, for your own info, taking a sample of your water to the lfs to test for hardness would be good.

One last thought, I would use caution moving anything from the 10g to the 50g, in light of the disease in the 10g. No point in transferring disease to a new tank and having that problem. And depending upon what it is, pathogens and parasites can be transferred on anything wet from the tank, be it plants, wood, rock, water, or fish.


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## Cheknnudol (Apr 13, 2009)

Alrighty, so last night when we got home the second glass cat was doing horribly and ended up not making it. Tests on the water at this point in time revealed my plaguing 5.0 nitrite levels, despite the water change we made earlier. Against advice we did another pwc because we were down to two fish from five in 24 hours and enough was enough, and Meowth (our favorite little spotted catfish) had started to act strangely. A water test after about a 30% water change - being as careful as possible with the gravel and whatnot - still revealed a 5.0 nitrite reading, so either the levels are astronomically higher than the test can react to, or something weird is going on. This was very worrisome and we found Meowth on his deathbed several hours later, only to have him pass before our eyes. It was at this point that we decided there was something horribly wrong in that tank and with the water and that nobody was going to survive it, so we went ahead and set up the smaller tank in which all had been doing relatively well before and spent an hour or so making the transition for DingDong (the angelfish) and Kevin (dwarf frog) smooth. DingDong has been practically symptom free unless I'm not imagining that the silver in his marbling has been subtly tinged (sort of like when you spray acid on copper sheeting). Behaviorally, however, he was and is doing rather well and is the only fish to actually eat. Kevin is similar as far as we can tell, but he hides so often that it's difficult to really know. Would he be far less affected by the water conditions since he is not breathing it?

After finding the glass cat and doing the initial pwc, we set up the 50gal tank with the undergravel filter inside and gravel over it just in case it would be alright to use. We probably jumped the gun by putting in that filter, the gravel, AND the water but we got news of an impending death in the family and really just needed something to do. I don't mind the extra effort it will take to remove any of it later (as long as there are no fish in it yet). Since you really don't suggest using it at all, can its presence in the tank be in any way detrimental since it holds some of the water away from the rest?

We went ahead and bought one heater for now, filled the 50gal with tap water, and treated it appropriately with TopFin Tap Water Dechlorinator which claims to remove chlorine, chloramine and heavy metals. It does not claim to neutralize ammonia in any fashion, but the heavy metals part makes me think that it might be a water conditioner of sorts which was also suggested. After letting that be for a couple of hours (it suggested a minimum of 15 minutes and we figured the tank was huge...) we tested the water for pH and ammonia, not bothering with nitrites and nitrates because I'd forced the boyfriend to test the water for those straight from the tap - both zero - and made the assumption that a dechlorinator couldn't really add either of those (is this wrong?). Ammonia was at zero and pH was closer to 7.0, so we ended up filling the small tank with this when we were getting it set up. The small tank is roughly 3gallons (small, I know), but since we're down to just the angelfish and the frog and it's only temporary I don't think that it will be too much of an issue.

Summary: I messed up pretty much everyone's advice at this point out of panic and while I understand it must be frustrating trying to help me, try to see from my point of view: things were going pretty great for multiple weeks with the exception of some finrot on one fish in the smaller tank. The move to the larger tank brought on crazy toxin levels and killed off not only all of the old fish, but every new one as well with the exception of one. No matter what we tried these toxin levels would NOT go down (After we moved the survivors into the small tank we did about a 50% water change in the 10gal and retested just to see if it was at all salvageable, and in fact there was absolutely no change). Perhaps we'll have to start over in this tiny tank but that's just as well at this point. At least DingDong has had a night without breathing poison.

The larger tank is what confuses me at this point in time...
"Your plan to use zebra danios for (cycling) or allowing the tank to mature,,.although frowned on by some,will work but the fish will be subjected to considerable damage and or death if too many fish are used or the fish are overfed." - 1077

Is it the use of live fish that is frowned upon or the use in particular of the danios? While using the danios would be extremely convenient since I was planning on keeping them anyway, I do not want to mess this larger tank up with fish that cannot get the job done. I simply went with them because I read that they would be alright to cycle with and I had wanted some. With this in mind, would any number of danios be suitable (on their own) in a 10gallon tank? If so, how many? You say no more than 6 should cycle our 50gallon, and I thought that might be an okay number considering their size to have in the 10gallon tank. I am probably wrong in this. Comments?

"I would NOT add any more fish until the tank 's water parameters read zero=ammonia,zero=nitrites and you have some detectable nitrAtes." -1077

For how long should the parameters read this consistently before we can reasonably assume that the tank is fully cycled?


"One last thought, I would use caution moving anything from the 10g to the 50g, in light of the disease in the 10g. No point in transferring disease to a new tank and having that problem. And depending upon what it is, pathogens and parasites can be transferred on anything wet from the tank, be it plants, wood, rock, water, or fish." - Byron

Since we are waiting to actually cycle the larger tank properly, we'll have several weeks to observe both inhabitants of the 10gallon as well as to observe whichever fish we end up with in that 50gallon for cycling. Both will undergo water changes in that time, obviously, that should cut down on any contaminants given they are not multiplying, though it would seem that with fewer inhabitants it will be much easier to keep such things under control. 

We did everything we could not to cross contaminate, but considering how tired, both physically and emotionally, we were, there might have been a gallon jug or something to touch water from both. It's hard to keep track of things like that around here. However there most definitely are not plants, wood, rocks, or anything else from the 10gallon that are going anywhere near anything in the near future. That thing scares me. As much as they probably hate it, DingDong and Kevin have nowhere to hide in the small tank for exactly that reason. We just don't have anything else that hasn't been in the water of that tank and I don't want to risk it. Would it be necessary to put in plants and things for the fish that cycle the 50gallon tank? Or could they make due without? Perhaps it seems a bit cruel not to provide anywhere to go but the only plants we've got at the moment are in the death tank or came free from the person we bought the tank from (which I don't trust). Either is going to take copious amounts of cleaning to put my mind at ease.

I hope I addressed everything for you guys and thanks for addressing all of my questions. I understand how frustrating it must be to hear about these things that we're doing, but we're new and doing everything we can in our better judgment, ignorant or not. It might seem like we're not listening (about moving the fish, doing water changes, etc.) but we mostly definitely are and everything is read, understood, considered, and remembered for future reference. The deterioration of conditions here has been so quick though we needed to make some decisions or lose everybody.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

It is indeed the use of live fish that some frown upon. But,,If done correctly as I attempted to describe.the fish don't suffer at all and the tank matures naturally.
Once the ammonia and nitrite levels read zero , and you have readings for nitrAtes, then you will want these readings to remain consistent for at least ten days. You can test every couple days to ensure that this is so. Then you may SLOWLY add fish at a rate of one or two fish per week. It is at this time that you will begin WEEKLY water changes of 20 to 25 percent using a dechlorinator for new water that goes into the tank before you add the new water. Leave the filter alone for the first month that the tank is maturing or cycling for this is where the beneficial bacteria gathers in numbers. If the filter becomes clogged(shouldn't if not overfeeding) then rinse the filter material out in old aquarium water that you take out during water changes and stick it back in but it should not give you cause to bother with this during (cycling). Can't stress the use of good dechlorinator such as the two I mentioned earlier with PRIME being the choice of many.To avoid ammonia, and nitrite poisoning you want no more than six small danios to do the job as described. If done as I have suggested,, they will remain healthy and also be suitable number for the ten gal at some point. You filter will build the needed good bacteria and frequent water changes and testing aren't necessary. Byron mentioned the use of product called CYCLE to help establish this bacteria and I shall let him address the benefit for my own expierience,,has shown that mileage vary's with these products.It certainly won't slow down the process.Patience is the key .


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I can imagine how frustrating this must be for you; I can recall similar episodes years ago. But we're all here to offer advice as best we can from our own experiences. 1077 has been giving very good advice, and we are basically saying the same things.

The trouble in the 10g was in my view the result of not cycling the tank and having too many fish in it during the cycling process. I mentioned in an earlier post that all of the fish might eventually die; ammonia and nitrite poisoning are severe issues, and some fish perish quickly while others "seem" to be able to withstand it for a while, but often not long. The frog will not die from this, amphibians extract oxygen from the air by breathing and also through their moist skins, and the ammonia or nitrite in the water will not affect this.

Cycling a tank takes 2-8 weeks. It takes 5-9 days for the nitrosomonas bacterium to establish itself at a level to handle the available ammonia (its food), and once it starts converting the ammonia to nitrite it takes several days for the nitrobacter bacterium to establish itself at a level to handle its food, nitrite. At some point these levels will be established and the ammonia and nitrite will from then on always be 0 when you test, and you know the tank is then cycled. *However*, you can throw the wrench into this process by adding more to the bio-load, as more fish, overfeeding, dead fish and plants not immediately removed, etc. Doing any of these things will produce more ammonia than the nitrosomonas can consume and they will start to multiply, and similarly the nitrobacter. Provided the increase is reasonable for the size of tank, the bacteria will be able to reproduce quickly and you won't notice anything. It's only when the extra load on the system is too great at once that a mini-cycle will occur, stress the fish and so forth.

The bacteria always exist at the number needed to consume their food (ammonia or nitrite). Adding a new fish increases the ammonia, and the nitrosomonas multiply to handle it, then the nitrobacter do the same when the extra nitrite appears. As 1077 said, you have to do this slowly and have patience.

I have (since I first was told of it) used "Cycle" in this process, adding it when I put in the first fish in a new setup. I believe it works to significantly reduce the stress on the fish. I have never had a problem when I've used it, never. But as 1077 correctly said, you have to put very few fish in, and six danios in a 50g is OK--6 danios to cycle a 10g is not OK as that is far too much bio-load for the system to adequately handle at the start. When the 10g is fully cycled, 6-8 danios would be fine.

Testing the tap water: ammonia at 0 is good, that means there is no ammonia source in your tap water (this can happen in some places). pH at 7 is good. The ammonia will only appear in the 50g when you put in biological matter that produces it, like the 6 danios. Then you start the cycle process.

Conditioner: I use (and have for over 15 years) Kordon's that removes chlorine, chloramines and heavy metals. I have never had a problem. The one you have should be OK as it seems to do the same. I know 1077 suggested one that removes ammonia, but in my personal view I don't think this is necessary unless you had ammonia in your tap water. I would agree that at the very start it may help, but as the cycle process has to start by feeding on ammonia, I would prefer to let it do so naturally from the ammonia the few fish produce and not mess with taking it out of the equation. Once the tank is biologically established (cycled) it should not be necessary to use a conditioner that removes ammonia because the biological filtration is doing its job and in my opinion should not be hampered with.

That brings me to your undergravel filter. I really don't recommend what you're doing. I've previously explained why this is asking for trouble.

Contaminants: If the problem you noticed at the start was due to a parasite or pathogen, without knowing what it was I would caution that it could remain alive in the tank for weeks. Water changes will not affect parasites or pathogens. As you have removed the fish and frog, I would simply pull the 10g apart and clean it--gravel, tank sides, any ornaments. Thoroughly. Let it all dry completely and in my view you will be rid of parasites and pathogens.

I think I've responded to your points. To emphasize one thing--all this occurred because you put fish in a new tank that was not biologically capable of supporting them. Please proceed slowly as 1077 and I have tried to explain, and this can and will be avoided in the 50g.


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## Cheknnudol (Apr 13, 2009)

Alright guys perfect advice  Thank you. It's exactly the information I needed to start feeling better. Last night I was so frustrated after Meowth died that I just sat down and said "I give up on this crap!" and the boyfriend stood there staring at me like "... we just bought a 50 gallon fish tank, hauled it two towns, carted it down some stairs, spent hours filling it with 1gallon water jugs that had to be carried from the laundry room to here, and spread 30 lb of gravel in it. I'm going to kill you." haha.

Anywho, a couple more questions. (I know, you're probably super sick of this)

The undergravel filter: I don't think I was really clear when I was talking about it simply being in the tank. Since there's quite a bit of gravel on top of it, would it be okay to leave it in the tank, but not actually USE it? If this is not alright then I'll take it out - no issue - but if I could avoid it (I'm only 5' tall and the tank is 25.5" tall, odds are i'd end up submerging my whole upper body to get it out if my boyfriend said no) then I'd prefer to. It's just plastic tubing afterall, yes? My only concern would be that waste somehow makes its way through the gravel and is trapped underneath the grate in that water, which is essentially stagnant (right? no?).

As far as cleaning the 10g and everything in it, what is the preferred/recommended way of cleaning things? I've heard of using really hot water perhaps with some salt, though I wonder if it is at all advisable to find a way of running these things through the dishwasher. Maybe that's really silly or really gross, but hey I'm new.

When is it that we are supposed to add the Cycle to the 50 gallon? Immediately before adding the fish? Some time ahead of that? I've decided that we are no longer allowed to spend more than an hour a night on the fish as we've both fallen behind on some important things dealing with this fiasco, so when we go to pick up our six Danio tonight I'd like to have a game plan in my mind so we can just go go go. The time limit may end up being unrealistic, but it will help us to keep organized. 

I think that's all for now... Thanks again everyone


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Cheknnudol said:


> Alright guys perfect advice  Thank you. It's exactly the information I needed to start feeling better. Last night I was so frustrated after Meowth died that I just sat down and said "I give up on this crap!" and the boyfriend stood there staring at me like "... we just bought a 50 gallon fish tank, hauled it two towns, carted it down some stairs, spent hours filling it with 1gallon water jugs that had to be carried from the laundry room to here, and spread 30 lb of gravel in it. I'm going to kill you." haha.
> 
> Anywho, a couple more questions. (I know, you're probably super sick of this)
> 
> ...


You've been through the frustration of dying fish in a new tank, and this happens to many people and they do just give up, thinking this is an impossible hobby. It isn't impossible, just takes time and patience and some knowledge, which you are now getting from this forum, and in the end you will have a beautiful aquarium (50g is a nice size tank, lots of potential). Now to the questions.

As long as you do not use the undergravel filter (i.e., connect a pump and pull water through it) it would be OK to leave it in the tank in one sense, but I would wonder why? As there are no fish or plants in the tank, I would take it out. Push the gravel to the front as much as you can, and lift the filter plate up from the back and out. Re-arrange the gravel and the cloudiness will settle out. To be honest, I don't know if the space under the plate could cause problems in the future even though not being used as filtration; bacteria will live there as it would in the substrate. But the plate is taking up some space, and plant roots will grow into it. The water in the substrate is not stagnant, or shouldn't be, and I don't know how much this plate with a heavy load of gravel on top would affect the normal and natural convection currents in the water column. For the minimal amount of work and to be safe, I'd take it out.

There is (or will be) biological action occurring throughout the aquarium, whereever there is water and this includes the substrate. The good aerobic bacteria colonize every surface area in the tank where there is oxygen for them, including in the gravel. There is a natural convection going on in the water column whereby water is slowly but continually moving around the tank, including down into and through the substrate. Oxygen in the water feeds the good bacteria. If that oxygen is suddently not available (as it would be if you used the undergravel filter for a time and then shut it off), the bacteria will die and pollute the tank. In most aquaria there are a few spots where the gravel compacts enough that water can't pass through and it creates anaerobic conditions (= devoid of oxygen). Another group of bacteria called anaerobic bacteria live in these spots, and some of them can produce their own oxygen while others source oxygen from the nitrates in the water. These bacteria produce nitrogen which the plants utilize, but some converts to nitrogen gas that is releasd into the water and into the air at the surface. The anaerobic bacteria can also release hydrogen sulphide which is toxic and can cause plant roots to rot and encourage algae, in addition to harming fish. Kept in moderation, all of these processes are natural and beneficial. As with the bacteria elsewhere, if everything is in balance the aquarium will flourish and be healthy.

Cleaning the 10g: don't use soaps and don't use the diswasher. Water is good enough, although some use bleach diluted in the water, but be sure to rinse very very thoroughly. I would never use bleach on the gravel, as it may be difficult to ensure it is all removed. Water and a thorough drying of everything will suffice.

Use the Cycle just before or when you add the fish. The bacteria that will be initiated by Cycle needs food, i.e., ammonia, and the fish produce it immediately by respiration and then as a result of the other functions. You can't overdose Cycle, so use a bit more rather than less, it won't hurt.

Don't add more than the six danios for three weeks minimum. Test for ammonia daily, and it will rise (spike) and then fall; at that point start testing for nitrite, it will do the same. Feed the danios normally but minimally, once a day is plenty, and only what they will eat in a few minutes. Excess food (and more food) will produce more ammonia, and you want to keep it in balance so you keep it to a minimum. Do a partial water change weekly, about 25-30%, but do not vacuum into the gravel yet (you want the good bacteria to colonize it) and do not clean the filter. Once you see ammonia and nitrite reading 0 for a couple of days, you will know the tank is cycled but remember, only cycled for the bioload it is supporting. Adding more fish or more food will increase the bioload, and this must be done slowly so that the bacteria can multiply and keep up with it. Good luck.


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## Cheknnudol (Apr 13, 2009)

Thanks 

We went shopping around for filters last night and found a Petco that carries Eheims, which I saw that you swore by in another thread. They were next to other filters by Cascade, which an employee at a different store swore by wholeheartedly. Each of these is quite a bit of money, but I'd like to know if it will be worth it to spend that kind of money as opposed to, for example, picking up the Penguin 330 with Biowheel I saw on craigslist for $20. Do you recommend Eheims over Cascades?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Cheknnudol said:


> Thanks
> 
> We went shopping around for filters last night and found a Petco that carries Eheims, which I saw that you swore by in another thread. They were next to other filters by Cascade, which an employee at a different store swore by wholeheartedly. Each of these is quite a bit of money, but I'd like to know if it will be worth it to spend that kind of money as opposed to, for example, picking up the Penguin 330 with Biowheel I saw on craigslist for $20. Do you recommend Eheims over Cascades?


I don't know "Cascades" or how they operate so I can't say how effective they might be. I have had Eheim for almost 15 years now, and no problms. But what is more, they do a super job. Understand, I am talking external canister type filters. 

"Eheim" is a brand name and they make several types of filter, some go inside the tank, some hang on the edge outside, and some are what we call canister that sit on the floor or on a shelf under the tank and there are hoses running into the tank. The canister in my view is superior filtering; it contains probably two baskets for different filter media plus one or two types of pads, all of which the water must flow through. Particulate matter is removed and trapped (this is what you rinse out periodically with water from the aquarium, never tap water to avoid killing the good bacteria on the media) and bacteria colonize the media. It is completely outside the tank, so in an emergency or when rinsing the media you aren't crashing about in the tank. You can add other media in the baskets (like peat to soften, dolomite to harden water) if that should one day be wanted. Canister filters cost more, but you have a very efficient and reliable filtration system and peace of mind. Fluval make canisters like Eheim, and there may be others.


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## Cheknnudol (Apr 13, 2009)

After what happened with our ten gallon we decided that unless an excellent deal came our way we were going to go with a canister type filter for exactly those reasons. We saw a fluval 304 on craigslist for like 40 bucks but weren't sure how well it would do, since one of the guys at a fish store we stopped at said he would never buy one and we'd probably never be able to find replacement parts for it should it break. Being that the craigslist one was heavily used, that seemed like a bigger issue to me than it might for someone buying one brand new. Plus there's the whole issue of priming, which I know nothing about. I heard that newer filters are self-priming, and was hoping that if we picked up an Eheim from the store that it would be as well. If not, I suppose it can't be too complicated as millions of people have probably done it. With your testimonial in my pocket I believe I will go ahead and invest in an Eheim once my clients pay up on my invoices.

The lady we bought the tank from gave us an air pump in addition to the under gravel filter grate/pipes/etc. I assume this was to actually make the under gravel filter work, but we hooked it up to "Scuba Steve" (our little scuba diver with a bubbling treasure chest. It did pretty much nothing in this capacity. It turns on, you hear the motor, and you can feel some air coming out; but when hooked up to anything its got probably half as much power to it as the dinky little air pump that powers our 3 gallon's filter. I played with the air volume knobs on the side and even took it apart to see if there was something keeping it from pulling air in, and I just can't figure it out. It's a Tetratec AP200, and there are repair kits all over the internet for like 9 bucks. Do you think it would be worth picking one of those up to get it fixed? I wasn't able to find too much information on this particular pump but it would be nice to have, if only to give Scuba Steve a purpose or maybe get a bubble wall (another one of the things my boyfriend was helplessly drooling over at the petstore). 
Also, it's quite loud. Could this be a sign of it being broken? Online blurbs regard it as being super silent but our experience is quite the opposite. If this is typical, though, is there anything we can do to make it a bit quieter that wont risk damaging it? My boyfriend wanted to wrap it in a towel but I was worried it wouldn't be able to get much air that way or that the motor would over heat. Thoughts?

Thanks


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Cheknnudol said:


> After what happened with our ten gallon we decided that unless an excellent deal came our way we were going to go with a canister type filter for exactly those reasons. We saw a fluval 304 on craigslist for like 40 bucks but weren't sure how well it would do, since one of the guys at a fish store we stopped at said he would never buy one and we'd probably never be able to find replacement parts for it should it break. Being that the craigslist one was heavily used, that seemed like a bigger issue to me than it might for someone buying one brand new. Plus there's the whole issue of priming, which I know nothing about. I heard that newer filters are self-priming, and was hoping that if we picked up an Eheim from the store that it would be as well. If not, I suppose it can't be too complicated as millions of people have probably done it. With your testimonial in my pocket I believe I will go ahead and invest in an Eheim once my clients pay up on my invoices.
> 
> The lady we bought the tank from gave us an air pump in addition to the under gravel filter grate/pipes/etc. I assume this was to actually make the under gravel filter work, but we hooked it up to "Scuba Steve" (our little scuba diver with a bubbling treasure chest. It did pretty much nothing in this capacity. It turns on, you hear the motor, and you can feel some air coming out; but when hooked up to anything its got probably half as much power to it as the dinky little air pump that powers our 3 gallon's filter. I played with the air volume knobs on the side and even took it apart to see if there was something keeping it from pulling air in, and I just can't figure it out. It's a Tetratec AP200, and there are repair kits all over the internet for like 9 bucks. Do you think it would be worth picking one of those up to get it fixed? I wasn't able to find too much information on this particular pump but it would be nice to have, if only to give Scuba Steve a purpose or maybe get a bubble wall (another one of the things my boyfriend was helplessly drooling over at the petstore).
> Also, it's quite loud. Could this be a sign of it being broken? Online blurbs regard it as being super silent but our experience is quite the opposite. If this is typical, though, is there anything we can do to make it a bit quieter that wont risk damaging it? My boyfriend wanted to wrap it in a towel but I was worried it wouldn't be able to get much air that way or that the motor would over heat. Thoughts?
> ...


Air pumps should be placed where air will move around them and they won't overheat, so no towels. I once placed one of mine on a piece of rubber padding and it was much quieter, didn't rattle like it did on the wooden shelf. Unless another member has advice on repair, I would forget the semi-working air pump and buy another, but before you do that, something else to consider. These bubble walls are snazzy, but all that motion drives CO2 out of the water. Were you intending on having live plants in this tank? If yes, I would not get bubble features; the plants need CO2 and while the fish produce it, there's not a lot of it, so you don't want to be driving it out of the water.

I've assumed Fluval to be fairly reliable, but of course a used one might have a very short life left and not be worth it. Perhaps Fluval owners can comment for our benefit. Here's a link to a site on canister filters I just came across with a Google search. Might be helpful; I know nothing about this site. Canister Filters - Top Picks in Canister Filters

Priming means how you start the water flow. My Eheims (bought 12-14 years ago) are not self-priming so if I stop them (to rinse the media) I have to physically start the syphon action when its back together by sucking air out of the tube from the filter into the tank, holding it over the tank obviously. It starts with usually one or two attempts if I fill the canister with water after I've put it back together and then I connect the tubing. You might get a mouthful or two of water (don't swallow it), but otherwise, not a big deal. The newer filters start automatically if they are self-priming.

Byron.


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

sorry to see that he died 
you are going to have a beautiful aquarium at the end of this really you will.
hang on in there,don't give up.
;-)


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## Cheknnudol (Apr 13, 2009)

Thanks, willow. Things are looking up a bit as there's nothing going bad in the little tank quite yet. DingDong the angelfish seems to be doing handsomely with Kevin Frog. I'm worried about the toxin levels getting bad in there since it is so small, so we've been/we'll be testing the water every day. Thus far there's been nothing really notable... If I remember correctly there was somewhat of a nitrite reading so we did about a 30% water change, but I thought it was weird if that was the case and there hadn't already been an ammonia/nitrate spike since they've only been back in there a day or two. (All the days run together, it seems. I'm super exhausted recently). Who knows what that's all about... 

Regardless, we're keeping a good eye on it this time and should have a nice powerful canister filter for the large tank soon  With all the stress in other areas of our lives right now, the death of almost all our fish hit us pretty hard. It was basically a death weekend as long term mild illness in my boyfriend's grandmother was finally diagnosed as pancreatic cancer that will probably take her from us within the next 6 months or so. In addition to all of that we're both going to school full time - the year is wrapping up and we are both very close to graduating from our respective programs so the pressure is on to do very well - and working part time, and my clients are roughly 4 months behind on paying me (I do web administration for non profits/youth organizations, and they seem to be hit pretty hard by the current economic state). We've got a lot on our minds.

I can't tell any of you enough, though, how helpful you've been and how much we appreciate your advice and insight. You've all been an invaluable resource in this spontaneous venture, as have the archived threads on this forum.


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

aww hun sorry to hear about your boyfriend grandma,
cancer is an awful thing,it took my step-daughter a few years ago,she was 21.
you have a platefull of stuff going on,and i wish you all the very best for the comming months,
i'll keep you all in my prayers. 
exhaustion is from all that is happening in you r life right now,a DRs visit may not be a bad thing.
if you wanna chat you can always PM me 
anyhoooooo.
i love the names you have for the fish and frog !! they fit so well,i love querkie things like that.
this forum is a life line to me,i would be lost without it,and all the people here.
oodles of information,and almost always someone here to help.
carry on,you're doing well.
:BIGwinky:


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I second Willow's thoughts. Keep us posted, we're all here to help out where we can. Take care, and best of luck, Byron.


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## Cheknnudol (Apr 13, 2009)

Alrighty! So it begins: I have just finalized an online purchase of an Eheim 2217...

"The Eheim Classic 2217 chamber canister design allows for the greatest flexibility in media set up for biological, mechanical, chemical and absorptive filtration. The flow rate has been calculated to provide the exact balance needed between mechanical/biological long-term filtration and water circulation and oxygen enrichment, resulting in optimum conditions for successful aquarium keeping. The 2217 is suitable for aquariums up to 160 gallons and has a pump output of 264 GPH. Comes complete with media (Ehfisubtrat, Ehfimech and fine and coarse filter pads) and quick disconnect valves. The manufacturer recommends this filter for both freshwater and saltwater applications."


woohoo!! Our tank is about a third of the maximum load of this filter, but I read that turnover should be 5-10 times the tank's volume per hour. Since we have a 50 gallon tank with probably 45 gallons of water in it, 225 gph was my minimum and I was stickin to it. Spoiled fishies spoiled fishies spoiled fishies! 

When we were at the store the other night to pick up tubing for that defunct airpump we spent probably 30 minutes loitering around and drooling over fish... I'm so excited to finally have a potentially successful set up. And a fairly large one at that. Getting into this we NEVER expected to have a tank this large, but the way we have it set up in the room, it actually works  

My boyfriend has been doing some research on the black ghost knife fish again (sigh) and still really wants one. The ones at the store are about 5 inches long, so it would seem that our tank has room but I read that they need as much as 75 gallons when they are full grown, if not more. How long would it be before this fish outgrows our tank? 
I've read in several places that they can be housed successfully with angelfish... could it be feasible once our tank is cycled to get one of these? We hadn't made any committed decisions on what fish to put in this tank yet aside from DingDong (we're not putting Kevin in the big tank as I'm worried it's too tall for him to easily come up for air, so he'll be in my little tank with the danios), so it would be easy to pretty much not buy anymore tiny fish that could end up as lunch. 

MORE cycling questions (yay! haha...):
Once the big filter comes, could we put the filter from the failed 10gal set up in as well so that it could cycle with the big tank? That way when we work on getting my little tank underway the filter would already be colonized and there would be less to worry about.
Do we need to clean out this smaller filter before exposing our 50gal? If so, how?
How do we sufficiently clean the gravel from this tank in case it was some sort of pathogen?

I think that's all for now...


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Getting a knifefish will certainly limit what else will go in the tank, but its your tank. Those who have or have had them say they can reach 18 inches, need a 6-foot tank, and they will eat the other fish that are smaller. Here's a link to another thread on this forum with comments from owners.
http://www.fishforum.com/freshwater-tropical-fish/black-ghost-knife-any-advice-23055/

I have already cautioned you about transferring anything wet from the 10g to the new 50g since it was felt there was some disease/parasite/columnaris in the 10g. If you thoroughly clean the filter in the 10g and dry it completely, I would assume it is safe to use. Once cleaned, yes it could be put in the 50g during the cycling and left in there (don't clean it during the cycling) right up until the moment when you put it in the 10g. The 10g tank will at that moment need ammonia in it or the bacteria in the filter will have no food and die off. One small fish in the 10g will provide this, and with the "seeded" filter (as this is called) and a dose of "Cycle" the tank should cycle fairly well in a couple of weeks.

I'm assuming there will be new gravel in the 50g, so the gravel question concerns the 10g. Remove it from the drained tank and put it in a bucket (not all at once, probably half of the gravel from a 10g at a time would be sufficient) and almost fill the bucket with tap water (warm) and just use your hand to agitate the gravel over and over, pouring out the water and refilling it several times. Its tiresome work and boring, I doubt any aquarist likes cleaning gravel, but it has to be done for new tanks, and this is no different. When thoroughly washed, lay the gravel out on a clean surface (brown paper bags cut open would work, don't use newspaper as the ink will get on the gravel) and let it completely dry--completely. If there isn't too much of it, you could put the washed gravel in the cleaned dry 10g and let it dry naturally, remembering to stir it up a bit each day to allow all of it to dry completely; this method takes a few weeks but as it will be a few weeks before the 50g is cycled, this is OK. I don't think anything will live through all this, whatever it may have been. Some people might say this is overkill, but...better safe than sorry.


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## Cheknnudol (Apr 13, 2009)

So since our tank is only 3' long we shouldn't get one of the knifefish? The thread you linked wasn't very detailed, nor was it commented on by people who actually own them. Seems like we'll just have to suck it up and either 1) get one against advice due to the tank size or 2) give up on getting one. Keeping my boyfriend happy has been quite frustrating lately =\

Wet things from 10gal bad! Totally get that  I was referring more to how in the world would I clean the darned thing well enough to cycle it along with the 50gal. I definitely don't want anything transferred, but it would be nice to get a head start on the status of the smaller tank. So i just remove the filter media, thoroughly rinse out the actual plastic, then either replace the media or wash it as well? 

The 50gal most definitely got all new gravel, but it would be nice to not have to buy anymore (40 lbs of gravel in one month is certainly more than enough to haul around - especially when combined with the tank weight, the weight of the thing we had to put the tank on top of, and all the other things). Would butcher paper be suitable for drying the gravel? (The stuff in the 2' wide roll). We've got some here that my mom has been trying to get rid of. 

Thanks for the insight. I'm off to the vet. Turns out I shouldn't have spent the money that I did on that filter yesterday... I need it to have one of my chinchillas looked at  His cage mate appears to have bitten him.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Were it me,(and it aint) I would wash everything (filter and media) from ten gal. in solution of bleach and water ,rinse well,and let dry completely befor reusing ,including media if you choose to reuse this. I have also found that a large colonder?(used to strain pasta) works well for cleaning new gravel. ;-)


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## Cheknnudol (Apr 13, 2009)

Alrighty  Thanks for all the input. The filter should be here next Friday so we'll start worrying about it closer to then. 

The pH in the small tank has dropped to 6.0. What could be causing this? The levels are as follows:
pH: 6.0
Ammonia: 0.25
Nitrite: 0.5
Nitrate: 5

I can understand the other values rising like this but the pH drop baffles me. Is this okay for DingDong and Kevin? I read that angelfish can survive in water with pH as low as 5.5, but I'm not entirely sure how to take that. I mean, some people can live in 110 degree weather while others have heat stroke. Thoughts?


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

what decore have you got in the tank with them ?


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## Cheknnudol (Apr 13, 2009)

None at this point, as we had moved everything we had into the 10gal and didn't want to risk moving it back with them if there was any kind of pathogen. It is just them, the filter, and the heater. Neither likes not having any cover, but it's the way things are for now.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Cheknnudol said:


> Alrighty  Thanks for all the input. The filter should be here next Friday so we'll start worrying about it closer to then.
> 
> The pH in the small tank has dropped to 6.0. What could be causing this? The levels are as follows:
> pH: 6.0
> ...


First, the ammonia and nitrite readings are a concern; this tank is not cycled or the readings would be 0 for both. If it was already established, adding one fish a couple of days ago should not have caused this mini-cycle. Add a capful of "Cycle" if you haven't already.

The pH of an established tank will tend to creep downward over time due to the biological processes going on, and unless there is something to prevent this such as dolomite or crushed coral or limestone rocks, all of which would tend to raise the pH depending upon how much/many of them [I know you have none of these in your 10g, I only mention it as info]. But it should not suddenly drop significantly. What was the pH before you tested it as 6? And how long has this tank been setup (sorry, but I've forgotten some of the details after everything else)? The angelfish will be OK at pH 6 but you don't want the pH fluctuating around so we need to find out why and (possibly) address the problem depending upon what it is.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

In my view, the possibilty is that fish are being overfed,water other than tapwater is being used,Dechlorinator ain't cuttin it ,or all three. Water tests should be performed at least twelve hours after a water change. Dechlorinator such as PRIME or AMQUEL+ should take care of ammonia and nitrite problems along with chlorine and chloramines As stated previously.Water changes using a dechlorinator such as the two mentioned should take place when ammonia or nitrites are at or above .50 
I am at a loss as to what could have reduced pH from 7.0 in tap to 6.0 unless tapwater is completely void of minerals that buffer it.


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## Cheknnudol (Apr 13, 2009)

> First, the ammonia and nitrite readings are a concern; this tank is not cycled or the readings would be 0 for both. If it was already established, adding one fish a couple of days ago should not have caused this mini-cycle. Add a capful of "Cycle" if you haven't already.
> 
> The pH of an established tank will tend to creep downward over time due to the biological processes going on, and unless there is something to prevent this such as dolomite or crushed coral or limestone rocks, all of which would tend to raise the pH depending upon how much/many of them [I know you have none of these in your 10g, I only mention it as info]. But it should not suddenly drop significantly. What was the pH before you tested it as 6? And how long has this tank been setup (sorry, but I've forgotten some of the details after everything else)? The angelfish will be OK at pH 6 but you don't want the pH fluctuating around so we need to find out why and (possibly) address the problem depending upon what it is.


We know this tank is not cycled. While there were fish in it before, it was prior to us knowing even what cycling was as well as prior to our possession of a testing kit. The switch back to the small tank from the 10 gallon was to remove them from the high-nitrite water as no matter how many water changes we did the nitrites would not go down. This was because we had so many fish in that 10 gallon before. With only one fish and a frog, it seemed to be a better option to put them in a tank by themselves and start from scratch. That way the waste accumulated was of a reasonable level, at least. 

As noted in the thread, we set up the small tank again on April 14th, and the pH at that point was 7.0. Here's the breakdown:
(First day) 4/14: 7.0
4/15: 6.8 - 7.0
4/16: 7.0
4/17: no test
4/18: 6.0
4/19:~ 6.2
(Today) 4/20: 6.4

We repeated the tests on our own to ensure they weren't erroneous for any reason. 



> In my view, the possibilty is that fish are being overfed,water other than tapwater is being used,Dechlorinator ain't cuttin it ,or all three. Water tests should be performed at least twelve hours after a water change. Dechlorinator such as PRIME or AMQUEL+ should take care of ammonia and nitrite problems along with chlorine and chloramines As stated previously.Water changes using a dechlorinator such as the two mentioned should take place when ammonia or nitrites are at or above .50
> I am at a loss as to what could have reduced pH from 7.0 in tap to 6.0 unless tapwater is completely void of minerals that buffer it.


We are feeding every other day and even then only small pinches that we watch them consume in a matter of minutes. I'm worried that this might mean Kevin isn't getting any food, but he seems to be okay. We most certainly did use tap water, though I am unsure of the mineral content of it. We did use the dechlorinator on the water (we picked up a syringe from the drug store that had increments of a milliliter so we could measure out the dechlorinator for each of our gallon jugs properly). We tested our tap water before deciding to switch over to it from the filtered/distilled water we had been getting from the dispenser at the grocery store. There was nothing in it, and the pH was solid at 7.0. Zeros across the board. 

Any ideas?


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Cheknnudol said:


> We know this tank is not cycled. While there were fish in it before, it was prior to us knowing even what cycling was as well as prior to our possession of a testing kit. The switch back to the small tank from the 10 gallon was to remove them from the high-nitrite water as no matter how many water changes we did the nitrites would not go down. This was because we had so many fish in that 10 gallon before. With only one fish and a frog, it seemed to be a better option to put them in a tank by themselves and start from scratch. That way the waste accumulated was of a reasonable level, at least.
> 
> As noted in the thread, we set up the small tank again on April 14th, and the pH at that point was 7.0. Here's the breakdown:
> (First day) 4/14: 7.0
> ...


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I must confess to being puzzled by a drop from pH 7 to pH 6 in a day (one day between readings), when there is only one fish in the tank. Did you do a water change on the day of or between the readings of 7 and 6? Something must have caused the pH to crash that much in one day. The only time I have ever experienced anything like this was when the tap water pH suddenly went from 6.8 to 5.6 and I didn't know it and did a water change and the tank was 6.0 immediately after. Check your tap water pH and let us know.

I concur with 1077's comments on water conditioners, it is OK to overdose them (but don't waste it, they're expensive as you know). I never measure conditioner, I just squirt some in when the tap water starts entering the tank (I use a "Python" hose connected to the tap directly) and I'm sure its two or maybe three times more than what is needed, but better safe than sorry. There's a lot of chlorine in my tap watyer (nothing else fortunately).


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## Cheknnudol (Apr 13, 2009)

Hey there everyone  Thought I'd pop in with a bit of an update and a couple more questions. The filter arrived on April 24th and we had time to set it up the following day. We put 6 zebra danios in, lost one (it had looked sickly since the drive home from the pet store) that evening, and another the following night after it had begun swimming odd. One of the remaining four began swimming funny in the same fashion a couple of days after that and died a day later, so we replaced the three danios with two tetras and moved our angel into the larger tank. This may not have been the best idea as I'm unsure of how hardy cardinal tetras and angelfish are, but its been two weeks and they seem to be doing great! We washed and placed all of our tank decor as well as placed a live plant, and the fish seem to really enjoy it all.

What brings me back today in particular is that yesterday we had drooled long enough over the BGK fish at the pet store and brought one home (naughty!), and let it loose in the big tank after floating (no quarantine! super naughty!). Everyone, including him, seems to be eating and behaving normally but we noticed today that the pH has been steadily climbing, and that the nitrites in the past few days have spiked. We did not at any point witness what seemed to be an ammonia spike, so this was rather unexpected; if this is not a typical cycling spike in nitrites, what could be causing it? Additionally, how worried should we be about the variations in pH (from 6.8 to 7.2 in about 2 weeks)? We got really worried since the BGK (Machete) is supposedly quite sensitive.

I'm not home at the moment so I don't have the measurements of the water (we have been testing a few times a week), but I should have them soon enough to post here for you guys. Thanks!

ETA: Everybody thank the boyfriend for his hardcore spreadsheet-making skills


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

The ammonia and nitrite readings you post look normal to me, in the sense that after two+ weeks the ammonia has gone up and now is "0" and the nitrite began rising during this period. It will (should) peak somewhere and then fall back to "0".


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## Cheknnudol (Apr 13, 2009)

Normal?! Yay! Do you think the increase in nitrites will hit the BGK or the angel particularly hard? Is there anything we can do to help? Thanks!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Cheknnudol said:


> Normal?! Yay! Do you think the increase in nitrites will hit the BGK or the angel particularly hard? Is there anything we can do to help? Thanks!


Any fish will be hard hit under the circumstances. You made the choice to put both of them in the tank that was not cycled, which in my personal opinion was not a wise decision considering all the advice several of us previously gave in 5 pages of posts. Dose the tank with "Cycle" to ease the stress and wait it out.


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## Cheknnudol (Apr 13, 2009)

I realize it was less than ideal. The BGK was an obvious bad decision but I guess we had a weak moment. The angelfish on the other hand was more of a safety measure, as several of you also warned against having him in such a small tank, let alone one that was not cycled. I think that six fish to 50 gallons with a great filter is a much better scenario than a fish and a frog to 3 gallons with a not so great filter, particularly when neither option involved a non-cycled tank. We got ourselves into a yucky predicament in the first place both with tanks and with the number of fish we acquired (BGK being the irresponsible exception), but are working to remedy it for the most part. 

We have dosed with cycle as a precaution, though I was wondering more than anything exactly how hard the changing tank conditions would hit the BGK and Ding Dong. Considering that Ding Dong was the only fish to survive our 10 gallon tank genocide (as we've been referring to it here), he seems to be a pretty hardy fish. Is this a total fluke or could he be the Super Man of angel fish?


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

No one would attempt to declare EXACTLY how a particular fish would be affected. Google info on NITRITE poisoning. Also know ,, (wasn't inclined to go back through thread),, NITRITE spikes are nearly ,if not always,, Preceded by AMMONIA spikes. Both are toxic ,,and fish that survive,usually have health issues and much shorter lives as a result.


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## Cheknnudol (Apr 13, 2009)

Well despite obvious opposition on here to how we handled our situation, the tank seems/seemed (more on this shortly) to be nearly cycled:
(Sorry for the formatting)
Date: pH/Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate
5/11: 7.2/0/1/5
5/12: 7.2/0/0.75/5
5/14: 7.2/0/0.35/7.5
5/17: 7.2/0/0/7.5


HOWEVER we woke up to the ominous sound of spraying water this morning from our filter being higher than water level. This made absolutely no sense since we had just put a couple of gallons last night. That was when we saw the steady stream of water shooting from 6" down the back corner of the tank onto the wall. We got the water level down to below the leak and I write this as my boyfriend is driving to his brother's to pick up a similar-height table to slide the tank onto (it is on a piece of - albeit soaked - particle board wrapped in fabric so it's a matter of putting the tables next to each other and pushing rather hard). 

We lost about 3 gallons onto the carpet so not moving the tank to clean up at this point is absolutely not an option, and 3 gallons were removed to get water level below the leak. My questions is obviously how do we fix the leak without harming the fish? I don't know anything about sealing agents or preferred ones or their affect on fish before they've set and whatnot, and I don't really feel comfortable putting our fish in our spare 20 gallon for very long. What would you guys do? Will this affect our cycling?


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

I would take the filter from the large tank and place it on the 20 gal and fill the twenty gal with water from tank thats leaking along with the fish. Watch the water parameters in the twenty gal.and change water as needed to keep ammonia levels and nitrites at safe levels. Remove the gravel from the leaking tank and place it in a bucket of the leaking tanks water or place the gravel in nylon stockings and place this too in the twenty gal with the fish. Let the leaking area dry and use aquarium safe silicone to repair the leak. Let the repair dry for 24 hours. Then fill the tank with tapwater to see that leak is fixed. If so,, then return the water,filter,and fish from 20 gal to the repaired tank.


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

oh no,how awful 
i'd go with 1077.


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## Cheknnudol (Apr 13, 2009)

2 month late update  fixing the leak went smoothly and we also purchased a couple of little algae eater fish (Swiffer and Bissel). Things went great for a while but a week or so ago our BGK went missing 
All this time you guys told me that he would eat our little fish but in the end it looks like they ate him. Very disappointing. D:


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Cheknnudol said:


> 2 month late update  fixing the leak went smoothly and we also purchased a couple of little algae eater fish (Swiffer and Bissel). Things went great for a while but a week or so ago our BGK went missing
> All this time you guys told me that he would eat our little fish but in the end it looks like they ate him. Very disappointing. D:


From previous posts, I'm assuming the "little fish" are zebra danios and cardinals. These would not kill a BGK. The angel might if it was full grown and the BKG was very small. What were the "algae eaters"? If ottocinclus, they would not kill a BGK. The asian "algae eater" might if it was big enough, they get 6+ inches and others have mentioned they can be rough. [ They also don't eat algae once they get larger.] It is more likely the BGK died on its own (the tank wasn't cycled, etc) and the other fish would scavenge it and it would quickly disappear. When any fish dies in an aquarium if you don't find it immediately it will not usually last long.


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## Cheknnudol (Apr 13, 2009)

From what I can recall the inhabitants of the tank right now are
1x Zebra Danio
1x Swordtail Lyretail
2x Angelfish (1x veiltail)
2x Fancy Guppies
2x Otocinclus

The BGK was around 5 inches. There's nothing big enough to kill it. The problem for me is that I have no idea what WOULD have. The tank is cycled. Water tests have been superb for quite some time now. There wasn't any nipping or chasing going on between any of the fish except with the danio and the guppies. None of the other fish died. It just seems odd to me that a baby BGK would just up and die after several months of being awesome and without showing any real signs of illness or upset.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

This was a 2-month update; it can take up to 8 weeks to cycle a tank. The BGK may have been weakened by being put into an uncycled tank (I checked back , this tank was definitely not cycled when it was added) and then sucumbed to any number of problems. As we mentioned previously, stress caused by fish having to fight against something frequently leads to internal/immune/health issues that sometimes surface weeks or even months later. Of course, there is also the fact that the BGK may have had something wrong when you acquird it; I'm sure others like me occassionally have a fish die for no obvious reason, sometimes after its been in the tank for months. Fish develop cancer, liver problems, nerve disorders, heart problems... who can diagnose all this? But I still think it stemmed from the original issue, which is why we all cautioned and tried to help as best we could.


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## Cheknnudol (Apr 13, 2009)

Based on the water test records we keep and which were published here, he would've been in nitrites no higher than 1ppm for no more than 7 days (decreasing in concentration substantially day to day). While I respect your advice and seniority on this subject and can understand exposure to toxins shortening an animal's lifespan and causing developmental problems in essential bodily organs and functions, I just don't see such low levels being that detrimental in such a short period of time. Chalk up this whole situation to newbie mistakes and irresponsibility, and make an example out of me all you want for jumping the gun with our fish as a beginner; I just don't see that being the cause at this point - especially since there was nothing different about his behavior or feeding the last time we saw him.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

With all due respect to your record keeping abilities, Nitrite spikes are nearly always preceded by ammonia spike. The fact that the levels you measured were in YOUR mind minimal,, does in no way bring comfort to the fishes ,nor does it mean levels of toxins were not higher at some point before your readings were taken. As you have conceded, nitrite and or ammonia poisoning, do damage to fishes internal organstThat damage is irreversible. Fish die within hours or weeks depending largely on length of time they were exposed to toxins. There are to my knowledge,, NO safe levels of ammonia,or nitrites in an aquarium. I refuse to believe that you believe,, the exposure to said toxins could not be contributing factor. In fact,, I shall go out on a limb and say that it was probable contributer.
We live ,we make mistakes, we learn from them.


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## Cheknnudol (Apr 13, 2009)

" With all due respect to your record keeping abilities, Nitrite spikes are nearly always preceded by ammonia spike. "

I never conjectured that we had no ammonia spikes. In fact I posted here when our nitrites rose because I hadn't been able to identify the ammonia spike in our records. Additionally, I believe it was you that identified the spike in our records. Regardless, the ammonia spike would have happened prior to our acquisition of this fish.


"The fact that the levels you measured were in YOUR mind minimal,, does in no way bring comfort to the fishes ,nor does it mean levels of toxins were not higher at some point before your readings were taken."

The readings I brought into this discussion are those taken when the BGK was added to our tank; as stated above, any nitrite or ammonia readings higher than what I described would have been prior to his introduction into our tank. My impression of these being "minimal" levels of toxicity is based on that fact that we joined this forum amidst a horrible newbie tank disaster in which there were MAX levels of toxicity - and even with that and losing most of our fish we still had survivors who were supposedly extremely sensitive to water conditions - and relatively these levels were a huge improvement for us. No, this does not bring comfort to all the fish, but we did everything we could to get this all figured out, and all the fish that were introduced early into this tank with the exception of the BGK and the cycling fish were added out of necessity because of the relatively MUCH HIGHER levels in their other tank at the time. I think at least some of our fish would be comforted by the fact we were trying to remedy our initial mistakes. As far as the BGK was concerned, I admit we jumped the gun. I've said that since our first post about him. However for less than a week he lived in water that was less than ideal and several months later passed away; our creatures that survived the '10 gallon tank genocide' as well as more or less the most stressful parts of the cycling of our 50 gallon are doing perfectly well and have been since day 1. 


" As you have conceded, nitrite and or ammonia poisoning, do damage to fishes internal organstThat damage is irreversible. Fish die within hours or weeks depending largely on length of time they were exposed to toxins. There are to my knowledge,, NO safe levels of ammonia,or nitrites in an aquarium."

My point is not that the levels are safe, but that I'm not convinced such low (comparatively) levels for such a short (comparatively) period of time could have caused the kind of damage that would have killed him in this way. After all of our mistakes with previous fish and small tanks I've seen what water toxicity does to fish in high concentrations. Aside from the fact that our larger tank didn't reach the ridiculous amounts of toxicity that our smaller tank did (and we still had fish survive), the larger tank didn't stand at higher levels for anywhere near the time our 'death tank' had before we lost a significant number of fish.
Additionally, several sources give between 0.2 and 0.3 ppm as an upper bound for nitrites in freshwater fish tanks. You may disagree, and i'll agree that 0.00000 is still preferable, but there would have to be reason for a widespread group of people to think similarly on that topic. Yes, I was at 5 times that for a day, but the amount of time that it took to dissipate that spike down to the somehwat safe level of 0.2ppm was only less than four days.


"I refuse to believe that you believe,, the exposure to said toxins could not be contributing factor. In fact,, I shall go out on a limb and say that it was probable contributer."

I believe that the brief exposure may have done some damage akin to the level of damage binge drinking at parties all summer long will do to one's liver. Something unhealthy, but not life threatening caused by exposure over time to a chemical that does damage to one's bodily organs and functions. I believe that considering the situation with the tank that this is a generous analogy. I do not deny that we did things poorly and I am the first one to admit my mistakes as you'll see throughout this thread. However, I just am not convinced that our initial bad decisions would have caused him to die unexpectedly after multiple months of pristine water conditions, an understocked tank, nutritious hand-delivered food, and tank mates he got along with. I'm sure deep down that there was more to it. 


"We live ,we make mistakes, we learn from them."

So I have, so I did, and so I'm doing.

Ultimately, you all are just giving me opinions and continuing to make an example of me which I don't exactly appreciate. Aside from this not even being the proper thread for the discussion (I opened up a separate one for ideas from throughout the forum), there's nothing anyone can prove about what happened now that he is gone. I asked on the other thread what people thought about how he had disappeared - not how he died; we cannot know how he died and I can't learn from something that may or may not have happened. I just wanted to hold out hope of finding our favorite fish. As far as making an example of me and giving probabilities that I killed him with poor choices- that's life and that's the forum mentality; but my purpose in bothering to delve into this and refute Byron's post was not to be in denial but to gather information. I was hoping that you would SUPPORT your opinions with actual evidence apart from experience that was so drastically different from my own. I'm here to learn, not get sassed for things I already feel badly about. 

The fact of it is that we went along our business for fourth of July weekend and never saw him again after that. He was showing no signs of distress and was nothing but playful, hungry, and energetic. Our other fish who were exposed to bad tank conditions are also still alive, as is our frog. Even if this does stem from this cycling issue, it was a newbie mistake which I came to this forum to attempt to remedy and learn from - not be torn apart for. I'm not whining about how he died and that I'm so upset and there was nothing I could do and whatever else; I know that there is a possibility that it may have been due to those brief water conditions, and that there is a severe probability it is my fault some how considering his entire ecosystem is under the control of my boyfriend and myself. These animals are under my protection when they are here and it is my responsibility to keep them safe and healthy. Sometimes I will go with the lesser of two evils with my pets (a 50 gallon tank cycling versus cramped and potentially uncycled tanks) and that is still not the best path for them, but it's the best decision I know how to make. Acquiring the BGK as soon as we did was a mistake and we did put him through some water conditions that were less than ideal, however it was a matter of days before that was remedied and he was with us several months before he went missing (not even sick). That doesn't sound like a secondary condition to water toxicity to me. Feel free to link me to threads about water toxicity to back up your statements, but don't hide behind your experience and seniority to mock my willingness to assert my beliefs and reasons for them.


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## Fishin Pole (Feb 17, 2009)

People on her have given you good advice and you come back and counter with i dont think short term exposure to the toxicity did the BGK in?.............What factual proof do you have in your statement?............No one is making an example of you........Your saying you dont think your BGK died from nitrite poisoning because he lived thru all the earlier trauma, the earlier trauma could have been the deciding factor in his death..............1077 and Byron are 2 of the more knowledgable members on here (amongst many others), take their advice and dont counter their opinions......Both these members are speaking from years of experience, although they might not have personal experience with BGK's, they both have given great advice on many other subjects and have been correct in their thinking.........Of course no one is always correct, but experience counts alot when it comes to fish keeping........What works for them might not work for you, but the general guidelines of fish keeping are always correct...........Ammonia and nitrite poisoning kills or shortens a fishes life......there is no arguing that, no matter how small of a dose you believe your fish lived in..........It caused them harm........period.........You claim to be a newbie fish keeper and i commend you for being here and seeking the info your looking for, but at the same time dont stand behind your beliefs and reasons and tell very experienced fishkeepers they are wrong in thier thinking


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## Cheknnudol (Apr 13, 2009)

I'm sorry. I didn't realize having a different opinion than them was telling them they are wrong. 

More specifically, I'm sure they don't need you defending them. They're mature and knowledgeable adults who have offered me maturity and knowledge most of the time. I've explicitly characterized the respect I have for both of them and their respective advice and experience. However, I have simply got a differing opinion on what happened. I think you may want to reread my last post. 


" People on her have given you good advice and you come back and counter with i dont think short term exposure to the toxicity did the BGK in?.............What factual proof do you have in your statement?"

The advice given was regarding my actions previously and it was followed with the exception of a couple weak moments and times when doing the right things was sincerely outside of my capacity; what was offered to me in the last couple of posts was opinions. And you're right- I don't think that it was the ultimate contributor in whatever happened. What factual proof do you have that the toxicity DID kill my particular fish? Like I've said, nobody can know. 


"Your saying you dont think your BGK died from nitrite poisoning because he lived thru all the earlier trauma, the earlier trauma could have been the deciding factor in his death.............."

I think he was affected by it and I think it would have contributed to his overall lifespan being shorter than expected, but I don't think it would've killed him so suddenly and without warning after only a couple of months. BGKs are known to live quite some time and get very large; such brief exposure in my opinion and from my understanding of fish shouldn't have caused his disappearance in this way without some other factor. I'm more than happy to read other threads and articles on nitrite toxicity if you would like to prove me wrong in that fashion, but I have never been one to take anyone's word on anything against my gut instinct. 


"1077 and Byron are 2 of the more knowledgable members on here (amongst many others), take their advice and dont counter their opinions"

And I'm sure that mindset would have done wonders during the holocaust and crusades. Please don't talk down to me for wanting substantial information on what happened with my tank and wanting a better understanding of things than just their opinions. No one is experienced enough and intelligent enough to dictate to me how I should be doing things without reasonable proof and support. I'm a scholar not a sheep. Regardless, I have taken their advice to the best of my capacity because many do agree with the advice they have given me and there is logical evidence to back it up; but my probem isn't with their advice but their opinions, which I have taken the liberty of challenging in a fashion that allows me to learn based on feedback.


"Both these members are speaking from years of experience, although they might not have personal experience with BGK's, they both have given great advice on many other subjects and have been correct in their thinking.........Of course no one is always correct, but experience counts alot when it comes to fish keeping"

They are very experienced and very reliable; as I've said, I do have respect for that. Whether or not their experience is with BGK's at this point is negligible. The advice given to me was in general for fish keeping, and the opinions they're giving is on the affects of nitrite poisoning of fish; both of these things are a part of learning the hobby and I'm convinced that they know what they're talking about. However, neither has given me any particular anecdotal or scholarly evidence to suggest that my line of thinking of incorrect on this particular occassion. Furthermore, neither have you.


"What works for them might not work for you, but the general guidelines of fish keeping are always correct...........Ammonia and nitrite poisoning kills or shortens a fishes life......there is no arguing that, no matter how small of a dose you believe your fish lived in..........It caused them harm........period........."

It isn't called "poisoning" or "toxicity" for nothing, shortcake. I have detailed over and over (and been ignored) that I agree it was detrimental to my fish. My argument is not that it doesn't impact the lifespan and overall health of the animal, but the EXTENT to which it affected my PARTICULAR fish. That's something we cannot know and something not worth condescending me over.


"You claim to be a newbie fish keeper and i commend you for being here and seeking the info your looking for, but at the same time dont stand behind your beliefs and reasons and tell very experienced fishkeepers they are wrong in thier thinking"

I am new to this, and I'm glad you acknowledge that I'm posting here to get useful information rather than a verbal smack with the respect stick. I'm using logical and deductive reasoning to pick apart their arguments and try to make sense of them, and haven't been convinced that their opinions are correct. I have not said that they are wrong - simply just that I do not agree. Nothing more, nothing less. No actual evidence (anecdotal or otherwise) has been offered to me on this front, however, to really explain their reasoning either. I'm here to learn, not have a pissing contest.


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## Fishin Pole (Feb 17, 2009)

My argument is not that it doesn't impact the lifespan and overall health of the animal, but the EXTENT to which it affected my PARTICULAR fish. 

How can you say that?.......It affected other fish before the BGK.......The extent is it killed the BGK

I'm using logical and deductive reasoning to pick apart their arguments and try to make sense of them, and haven't been convinced that their opinions are correct. I have not said that they are wrong - simply just that I do not agree. Nothing more, nothing less. No actual evidence (anecdotal or otherwise) has been offered to me on this front, however, to really explain their reasoning either. 

Arguements?................Nobody is arguing with you, they are giving you the reasoning why things are happening in your situation..........By thinking that thier opinions arent correct, you are arguing with them......You dont understand thier reasoning?..........Their reasoning is they know that nitrite and ammonia can and will kill fish.........Some in a matter of hours and other it could take weeks, but either way IT WILL l kill fish......

No one is experienced enough and intelligent enough to dictate to me how I should be doing things without reasonable proof and support. 

Their experience is their proof and support...............Read all you want about this or that, but it can never replace hands on experience

I don't think that it was the ultimate contributor in whatever happened. What factual proof do you have that the toxicity DID kill my particular fish? Like I've said, nobody can know.

Experience, experience, experience.........thats what allows the members to make statements about what happened to your tank.........The factual proof is that the said fish lived in poison for how long?..........You think living in poisoned water didnt do your fish any harm?..........It caused their death........Or, since you dont agree with that, what is YOUR reasoning why the fish is no longer with you? since you wont believe experienced fishkeepers why your fish is dead, what is your reason?


You keep talking about "our" opinions about your fish keeping and wanting factual proof that this caused your fish deaths...........What did you expect to get when you asked for help with your situation?..........Did you want documented proof?.............What would it take to convince you that it was the cause?..........Would a marine biologist need to confirm what everyone is trying to tell you?........What would it take?..........


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## Cheknnudol (Apr 13, 2009)

I think you may not have read the whole thread, Fishin Pole. That's not something that I'm not going to remedy myself by explaining the entire situation; there's a written record of it here on the forum. 

The thick and thin of it is that I didn't ask anyone what killed the BGK but in the end it 1) doesn't matter and 2) can't be proven. If you want to say that brief exposure to that up and killed the fish 2 months after that exposure, fine. Go ahead. I'm not convinced though. I'm telling you why I'm not convinced, you're whining that I should be convinced, yet nobody is providing the intermediary step of either an explanation or evidence of precedence. 

As far as whether people are arguing with me or not, I think you're misunderstanding the term "argument." That is also something I won't remedy here. If anyone is, though, it would be you Fishin Pole who at this point has jumped into a conversation without any prior knowledge of the situation and immediately displayed hostility. Good job maintaining and inviting atmosphere. 

As far as articles not being worth more than a person's experience, I can tell you that scientific studies with control groups and statistics are a lot more convincing to me than a couple of people from around the world who have had very distinct experiences. I had an angelfish survive a long time in extremely unsafe water, survive the cycling of a 50 gallon tank, and continue living and eating and growing faster than any of my other fish who had not been through that hellish journey. Does that mean I can go around peddling my experience to other people saying that they shouldn't cycle or filter their angelfish tanks? I think not.

Experience doesn't make you all knowing; it just makes you insightful. Without a body and a necropsy there will be no 100% answer as to what killed the fish. Experience can grant insight as to what possibly or probably happened, but in the end it's all just conjecture anyway. The factual proof is that the fish lived in poison water for about 3 days and tolerable water for 2 days. For over 2 months after that the water was flawless and the fish showed no signs of distress, physical ailment, or behavioral abnormalities. I believe that the poison water affected him, but none of us will ever know exactly HOW it affected him or if it was indeed the cause of his death. You can assume that's probably what killed him all you like, but we will never know for certain. And without proof, it doesn't really matter. For all I know it could've swam into the side of the tank and killed itself and been picked away by the other fish. Having not seen the body I couldn't tell you. 

I didn't ask for help with how the fish died; the forum jumped on it on their own accord and, while I appreciate their insight on it despite it not being requested, I simply just do not agree. That is all. I'm sorry you're so upset that I don't think exactly like you and trust these people without a hint of doubt in a situation where there isn't even a body or precedent of odd behavior to hint as to what was wrong with the fish. A necropsy of the fish would prove to me what kind of bodily harm had befallen it; seeing how it died (swimming funny, being lethargic, etc.) would have proven to me a line of symptoms that could be matched with known ailments. But we simple did not have those at our disposal.

I understand what you are all saying:
The toxins in the water did damage to my fish and it is probable (though Fishin Pole seems to be the only one who thinks it is definite) that the fish died from complications secondary to that toxic exposure. Poisons hurt fish. Cut and dry. Nitrite poisoning has symptoms. Also a known fact. Was I there to observe those symptoms in my fish? No. Was there a body when I returned home which I could examine to see if some horrible accident had befallen it? No. No there was not. 

I think this whole back-and-forth has gone long enough, Fishin Pole. You're not listening to reason and you're asking me to abandon reason myself and just climb on the fish-master bandwagon. I have respect for these folks' opinions and here you are making a spectacle of yourself in their defense when they never needed to be defended. It's people like you who jump on others for no reason that make forums a scary place for people new to hobbies. If I didn't have a thicker skin I'd have been out of here already, but since I do I have no problem telling you that all I've done here is ask for information all you've done is insult me. I'd be more than happy to have a mod come along and read this and get an idea of what kind of senior member you really are.

Forums are about sharing information and experience and opinions. I received experience and opinions, and I asked for more information. Instead of that I got reemed for not being some ridiculous cultish believer. That's something to think about.


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## Fishin Pole (Feb 17, 2009)

Yeah, your right.........Im' the one not listening to reason......Think what you want to think, no one is being hostile towards you.....We tried to help, but being contradicted at every turn by not having concrete proof is just enough for me.............

Who insulted who?...............I'm not known anywhere as shortcake.........Who is insulting who?.......

I have read the entire thread .......more than once and you are the one with the insulting, condescending attitude towards people who have tried to help you...........

There is no reason to worry, i will never offer my advice or experience for any of your future posts and i believe some other members will not take the chance to get in an debate with you, since the previous posted advice was and still is being questioned by you...........


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## Cheknnudol (Apr 13, 2009)

Shortcake, as far as I know, isn't a term of offense. It's like "sweetie" or "doll." Sorry if you don't appreciate nicknames but they tend to come out of my mouth (or fingers, in this medium).

I've been nothing but appreciative of the information given to me throughout this whole venture, both on this thread and others. The only thing I haven't appreciated is your interjections completely irrelevant to the argument. 

There was no debate here except regarding the words that I said which you so inappropriately dismantled, twisted, and redistributed to avoid the main issue which still remains that I would like more information on nitrite poisoning and nobody is willing to point me in the right direction.

I'm sorry you think that I'm being offensive by trying to defend myself from manipulative people like yourself who seem dead set on picking a fight. I've made it very clear that I have nothing but the utmost respect for the people you came here to support, and the only thing I haven't appreciated and the only thing i have remained defensive toward is your constant dereliction of my point. It seems that each post you make you accuse me of disrespecting or ignoring some one or some thing and when I assure you and even provide explanations as to why that is not the case, you find yet another thing to get on my case about.

I think we can both agree that your tone from the beginning of this volley between you and me was hostile and the only way to really respond to a post like that is defensively. I've repeatedly made my intentions, opinions, and reasons for those opinions clear and you've done nothing but disregard them and find new ways of harassing me on this thread and others. We will not agree on this. That's something I'm willing to let go if you're willing to mind your manners both here and elsewhere on the forum (as you've already shown you're willing to attempt to provoke me elsewhere).


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## velocitygirl (Oct 4, 2009)

make sure to remove the carbon from your filter before you use meds or they will get absorbed into it( the carbon) before they can work on the fish.


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## kenster (Jan 20, 2010)

Just read this post from start to finish ( took bloody ages) and I am staggered by the attitude of the initial poster by the end, talk about not respecting advice from those who have knowledge.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

I had nearly forgotten this thread. Did deteriorate rather rapidly didn't it?:roll:


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