# Danios are swiftly dying off, no tails, mass bruise-like discoloration



## Caveat (Jan 19, 2012)

Okay, so here's what's going on with our tank (pictures included);

*Please keep in mind that none of the rams, nor the Pictus, are displaying any symptoms are are healthy and swimming and eating normally and actively.*

The previous night (1/17/2012) we had moved seven (7) long-fin zebra Danios to the 55g from our already-established 20g that we've had them in for the past two (2) weeks with no problems. We previously had five (5) long-finned pearl Danios in the 55g tank, as well as fifteen(15) leopard long-finned Danios in the tank before we moved the long-finned zebras from the 20g to the 55g.

This didn't happen until this morning (1/18/2012), when we woke up to five (5) of our fish dead. We came home tonight after visiting a specialty fish store, and we're going to lose four (4) more by morning, possibly more.

We've spent the day monitoring our fish and there have been no signs of aggression, aside from the occasional chasing that happens among dithers. The rams school and stay towards the bottom of the tank, and wander around. They leave the Danios and the Pictus alone; just as well, the dithers leave the rams and the Pictus alone, and the Pictus hangs out at the driftwood. Keep in mind that this tank is also fully-planted.

Because three of our rams have ich, we've increased the water temperature to 88 degrees (we did it in small increments so that we didn't shock any of the fish with the temperature change), and so far the ich has been dropping off and the rams are improving. The leopard and pearl Danios have been in the tank with the rams for the entire week in this water temperature being closely monitored and have had no problems until last night, until after the zebras were introduced. So far none of the zebras have been included in the casualties. 

I don't know what to do, do you guys know what it is? Are the zebras bullying the rest of the Danios, or are they (*gulp*) being cooked alive? If so, I will remove them *right away* and get them their own tank tonight if need be. Please help! Details are below.


1. Size of tank: 55g

2. Water parameters
a. Ammonia? 0 ppm
b. Nitrite? 0 ppm
c. Nitrate? 0 - 5.0 ppm
d. pH, KH and GH? pH is 7.0 - 7.2, don't know about the other two.
e. Test kit? API master kit

3. Temperature: 87 degrees

4. Fresh water 

5. How long the aquarium has been set up: 4 weeks total, 3 weeks of a planted cycle before-hand with two pictus catfish

6. What fish do you have? How many are in your tank? How big are they? How long have you had them?:

1xPictus
1xElectric blue ram
2xGolden rams
3xGerman Blue rams
(currently)22xDanios, soon to be 18x, possibly lower by morning.

This is the first batch of fish in this tank; all of the Danios are their full-size, and the young rams are two or three months away from reaching maturity. The golden rams are already mature.

7. Were the fish placed under quarantine period (minus the first batch from the point wherein the tank is ready to accommodate the inhabitants)? No quarantine, first batch of fish in the tank.

8. a. Live plants: Micro swords and various stem-plants (anubias, ro-something...)
b. Sand, gravel, barebottom? Eco-complete substrate
c. Rocks, woods, fancy decors? Any hollow decors? A large piece of drift-wood, no sharp edges (on the outside), has lots of hiding areas, as well as leafy stem-plants and a thick carpet of micro-swords to hide in, and floating roccia.

9. a. Filtration? 70g biowheel filter from Marineland
b. Heater? 2x150w

10. a. Lighting schedule? What lights are used? 8 a.m. - 10 p.m., 4x6500 compact fluorescent (23w/bulb)
b. Any sunlight exposure? How long? No sun-exposure

11. a. Water change schedule? 1/week
b. Volume of water changed? 25%
c. Well water, tap water, RO water? RO water + Conditioned tap, aged
d. Water conditioner used? Prime
e. Frequency of gravel/sand (if any) vacuumed? 1/week

12. Foods? Nutrafin Max (Small tropical fish micro-granules)
How often are they fed? Feed for two days, skip the third, feed another two days, skip the third, so on and so forth.

13. a. Any abnormal signs/symptoms? Tail fins and sometimes the under-fins completely gone by the time of death, mass discoloration of the bodies that starts in small patches but quickly covers the body. Fins don't disappear before the discoloration moves over the body, all happens at the same time.
b. Appearance of poop? Normal
c. Appearance of gills? Normal

14. a. Have you treated your fish ahead of diagnosis? Heating the tank in case of ich.
b. What meds were used? None

15. Insert photos of fish in question and full tank shot if necessary.










This fish in the picture below, right under the leopard on the top, is showing the symptoms.















































Please help me.


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## angella (Dec 21, 2011)

Ohmygosh I'm sorry  Poor fish! I hope someone knows what's wrong. I'm just going to go out on a limb and say it's the temperature, but really I don't know so don't freak out... Good luck and I hope it's resolved!


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## Caveat (Jan 19, 2012)

Thanks. 

I'm getting so distressed, my husband just had to put another Danio out of it's misery. I don't want to lose any more of them, but it isn't fin-rot (it's starting in the middle of their backs and on one side or the other, not always at their fins), and it isn't any other disease we can find. None of the fish are battering them. Not even the specialty fish-stores we've visited have any clue; it may be a genetic defect. :c I don't want them to die... *sniff*


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## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

septicemia?


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## Caveat (Jan 19, 2012)

I looked up different sources online and none of the symptoms that they list for septicemia is being shown by any of the fish; even the ones close to death are still trying to swim their little hearts out. I don't know.


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## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

So you don't think the discoloration is hemorrhage? I can't tell from the photos.


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## Caveat (Jan 19, 2012)

No, there's never any red present on their bodies, and they're very active, even while they're dying. Also the septicemia is a bacteria (can be a virus), the rams and Pictus have not been affected by it. Husband just witnessed a zebra punching another fish though, that may be it. We're going to remove the zebras and see what happens.


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## twocents (Feb 22, 2010)

Best of luck. Unseen agression good possibility and I agree, 87 seems a tad high.

p.s.: I don't know how you euthanize your fish. I might recommend finquell. It is used to sedate fish, and, when overdosed, will kill. The fish just goes to sleep and does not wake up. Just a suggestion: I have a bottle at home; thankfully I don't have to use it often, but I have had to on a few occasions.


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## Spook (Dec 30, 2011)

Any updates?

I just got through battling this with a shoal of Bleeding Heart Tetras. It goes unbelievably fast. I ended up losing all but 3.

From what little I could scrape up by researching the symptoms, I think it may have been Neon Tetra Disease (it can affect Danios as well), but I'm not absolutely certain if that's really what it was or not. In either case, I hope you had better luck than me!


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

I believe it is the temp which is much too warm for the Danios who prefer much cooler water than Mikrogeophagus Ramirez (blue rams) if indeed they are the blue rams as opposed to the bolivian rams.
Would also wonder what water parameter's are with respect to ammonia,nitrites unless 55 gal is heavily planted as opposed to just five or six plant's.
Temp may not affect danios straight away but over the course of a few day's or a week, they would become stessed with temps much above 76 degrees F.
Some danios are reported to suffer from what is often called .."wasting disease or skinny disease " but i have no info to share on causes or treatment other than to quarantine any new fish before placing them in main tank.
Will say that Danio's often do better in hard,alkaline water with temps between 72 and 75 degree's from my expieriences with these fish.
Don't believe the danio's and rams to be a good fit together, and might move the danios back to 20 gal tank with cooler tapwater only,, rather than R/O tap mix that I assume is for the benfit of the rams.


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## Caveat (Jan 19, 2012)

*1077: If you read all of the details I provide, you'll find your answers as to the water conditions, and yes, it's very heavily planted. The entire floor is carpeted in microswords and stem-plants.*
*
Spook: I was under the impression that the disease came out later on through the fish's life? It's completely possible, I never considered it and I never knew it could affect Danios as well. But that makes total sense since Danios are largely inbred and are at high risks of genetic diseases and mutations. *

*Twocents: I had been dosing them with Oil of Cloves, then my husband made sure that they were out with a 'thump' from his forefinger and thumb. It sounds awful, I know, but we don't want them waking up later in the sewer wondering how much they had to drink. X3*

*Progression*::

We removed the Danios into a medic tank of 87-degrees (to match the 55g) and slowly decreased the temperature over the course of a day. However, even with the change of temperature and putting them in their ideal conditions, the Danios kept dying of the same symptoms. We gave it three days in hopes that it was the 55g's temperature that was affecting them in that manner, but it wasn't. It was simply Danio-on-Danio war; it sort of reminded me of Bloods and Crips. 

_We talked with various hobbyists, and every one of them had the same response: it's rare for Danios to get aggressive towards each other, but it does happen, so the only thing that can be done is to return the offending fish or isolate them (or the bullied fish) from the rest of the tank by giving them their own tank._

We've since then removed the zebras and have taken them back to the store that we bought them from, and unfortunately only three of the other Danios have survived. We also removed them and took them to the same store that we bought the zebras from, and saw that they got into a tank with the same breed. So the zebras are with other zebras, and the leopards are with other leopards. 

Unfortunately no pearls survived.

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*Conclusion*:

We've done more research on more dithers, and we've decided on coral red pencil fish. We'll set the tank at 83-degrees and call it a day, but we're going to give our tank another month before we introduce more fish to it. One, we want to make sure that all of the ich is gone, and two, we want to see some of our newly-added plants fill out first.


Thanks for the help and advice guys.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

My aplogies for missing your water parameter's whihc were indeed clearly posted:roll:
Pencilfish you are considering are another fish that does not appreciate warm water and thrives in temps cooler than the rams prefer.
Sparkling gourami, cardinal tetra's, could work in the warmer temps with the ram's.IMHO


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## Tazman (Jan 15, 2012)

2x150w heaters is a little too much for that tank as well.

It is never a good idea to raise the temperature unless you absolutely know it is ich. The effects can be devastating.

A large amount of aggression goes unnoticed as well, it is quite possible it was that.

Another method of putting fish to sleep along with the clove oil is to add a small amount of alcohol to the water once the clove oil has taken effect. The fish will fall asleep with the clove oil and the alcohol will ensure it will never wake up - vodka works best as it is clear and the fish if not totally asleep will not notice it.

Sorry for your loss.


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## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

I'm sorry about your situation, but its great that you're looking for humane options.

Info on euthanasia-
Aquarius Aquaria - Exploring Fish Euthanasia

This article rates each method on how humane it is.

I've found that the easiest, least stressful, least expensive and most humane method for me is catching with the least amount of stress/fuss possible, then inserting the fish headfirst into cold alcohol (70% isopropyl). But read the article, it was enlightening.


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