# Ich but can't med due to prazipro in tank



## p0tluck94 (Nov 27, 2017)

So I am in the process of setting up a qt tank but with black Friday sales I did a big mistake which I'm now paying for, I went to a lfs that isn't the one I normally go to but has higher ratings than the one I frequently visit, I bought 1 herbertaxelrodi rainbow, 2 crimson spotted rainbows, 2 sentani rainbows and one parva, well without an established qt tank I put them in my display (bad idea) but it was my only choice, I noticed tonight a few spots of ich on one of the sentai I believe might be the sentani they all look the same right now cause they are so young and small but none the less one does have ich im guessing from the store or maybe temp fluctuation from transportation (but people have told me ich has to be introduced via fish, plants contaminated nets etc etc), the issue I have is I dosed my tank 2 days ago with prazipro because my large boseman looked to have clear poop and i wanted to treat for internal parasites /worms just in case, now I have ich but only have rid ich plus which I read you can't use in conjunction with prazipro, my tank is as follows (with parameters)

55 gallon
Filters are 2 aquaclears 1/110 a d 1/70
Lightly/med planted
Temp is 77
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 15-20
Ph 7.3-7.5
Phosphate 1.2
Kh 6
Gh 6

Fish stock is
1 boseman rainbow
1 irani red rainbow
2 crimson spotted rainbow 
2 sentai rainbow 
1 parva rainbow
1 herbertaxelrodi rainbow
6 lemon tetras
6 candy candle tetras
1 calico BN

How do I treat this ich with the prazipro being in the tank? It's not super bad right now but it will be if I don't get on it, plus that little guy is getting chased around. 

Ich https://imgur.com/a/jBy48
This is the tank
https://i.imgur.com/X8nQsoc.jpg

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## aussieJJDude (Jun 9, 2012)

Maybe do a temperature treatment? Ideally, have good surface agitation - time to pull out the airstones or a well placed powerhead directed at the surface - and see how that goes?

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## p0tluck94 (Nov 27, 2017)

aussieJJDude said:


> Maybe do a temperature treatment? Ideally, have good surface agitation - time to pull out the airstones or a well placed powerhead directed at the surface - and see how that goes?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


I have 2 air stones in the tank a neo diffuser, and a 4" course airstone, I hate to do the temp as my first battle with ich in my 150 gallon that's empty right now I lost all my loaches and still grieving over that because with loaches you can't use most meds and they don't tolerate heat very well neither nor salt, I could do salt but only half rise as my tanks planted, I honestly don't want to raise my temp high again on the fact 2 species of my rainbows are actually cold water and I don't know how they will react to that, I was actually thinking about this earlier. Ty I will think on it and research it. 

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## aussieJJDude (Jun 9, 2012)

Weird.... for most loach species (except the hillstream 'loaches') they respond fine to temperature increase, infact many loach experts encourage so.

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## p0tluck94 (Nov 27, 2017)

aussieJJDude said:


> Weird.... for most loach species (except the hillstream 'loaches') they respond fine to temperature increase, infact many loach experts encourage so.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


I had clowns and they don't handle heat above 87° from a post I read when they had ich, still a hard subject to talk about as I did everything hobbyists recommended and they still died. 

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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

I’d hate to do any other treatment than heat for treating ick, ESPECIALLY in a tank of that size.

I’ve never lost any species of fish to a heat treatment, and I don’t do anything special like add air stones or whatever. I administer it to every new fish I get - probably 60-70 species including “cold water” fish and several loaches and several rainbows. 

It is entirely possible that there was more at work than temp change that killed the fish.


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## p0tluck94 (Nov 27, 2017)

jaysee said:


> I’d hate to do any other treatment than heat for treating ick, ESPECIALLY in a tank of that size.
> 
> I’ve never lost any species of fish to a heat treatment, and I don’t do anything special like add air stones or whatever. I administer it to every new fish I get - probably 60-70 species including “cold water” fish and several loaches and several rainbows.
> 
> It is entirely possible that there was more at work than temp change that killed the fish.


Well The first person that gave me advice told me to use half dose of rid ich +, I immidiately saw them come to the top of the water so that could of did them in, but even at 86° doing water changes every day with extensive gravel vacs the ich did not go away on my other fish at all it actually got worse, after 2 days of normal temp and dosing rid ich the infestation was gone, I know the heat method works but it just didn't work in my case, TTM us the best way to treat ich but I don't have a second tank to switch back and forth to 

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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Mixing treatments is a bad idea. If you’re going to use meds, don’t add salt or raise the temp. If you’re going to use heat, don’t use meds and/or salt too. Just one treatment at a time. With that in mind, do some massive water changes to get rid of the prazipro and get ready to deal with the ick - that’s the pressing issue at the moment. I mentioned how I administer heat to every new fish - I also give them prazipro treatments while they are in quarantine. I’ve never done them simultaneously.

I raise the temp to 88 and I don’t do any water changes or gravel vacs - both are unnecessary for the 2 week period. Based on what you’ve said I suspect the heat didn’t work for you because of how the treatment was administered.

Transferring the fish to another tank is not the best way to treat ick - not even a good way, in my opinion. Ick is either in your tank or it’s not, and if it is you have to assume that all the fish have it. Otherwise, you’re going to have a recurring issue. To properly eradicate it, you must treat the entire system including every fish, and then preemptively treat every new fish prior to introduction to the main tank. If you do not treat new fish before adding them to the tank, then you will be opening the door for it to come back with every fish you add.


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## p0tluck94 (Nov 27, 2017)

jaysee said:


> Mixing treatments is a bad idea. If you’re going to use meds, don’t add salt or raise the temp. If you’re going to use heat, don’t use meds and/or salt too. Just one treatment at a time. With that in mind, do some massive water changes to get rid of the prazipro and get ready to deal with the ick - that’s the pressing issue at the moment. I mentioned how I administer heat to every new fish - I also give them prazipro treatments while they are in quarantine. I’ve never done them simultaneously.
> 
> I raise the temp to 88 and I don’t do any water changes or gravel vacs - both are unnecessary for the 2 week period. Based on what you’ve said I suspect the heat didn’t work for you because of how the treatment was administered.
> 
> Transferring the fish to another tank is not the best way to treat ick - not even a good way, in my opinion. Ick is either in your tank or it’s not, and if it is you have to assume that all the fish have it. Otherwise, you’re going to have a recurring issue. To properly eradicate it, you must treat the entire system including every fish, and then preemptively treat every new fish prior to introduction to the main tank. If you do not treat new fish before adding them to the tank, then you will be opening the door for it to come back with every fish you add.


I did 30% per hikari and many high reputable fish stores in the United States, conditioned and temp matched, refilled left my temp at 77 dosed 1/2 recommended cause my fish are so small, fish are doing great, will up the dose today to 3/4 the ich isn't bad only 5 spots but I know 5 spots can turn into a thousand just the fish are so small I want to make sure they can handle the rid ich plus. 

TTM method is the best way to treat ich but I feel it's too stressful on the fish going back and forth from 2 storage tanks, if ich can't find a host it dies. 

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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Well it seems like you know everything - makes me wonder why you started the thread in the first place. We will have to agree to disagree about what the best method is. Good luck with your sick fish.


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## p0tluck94 (Nov 27, 2017)

jaysee said:


> Well it seems like you know everything - makes me wonder why you started the thread in the first place. We will have to agree to disagree about what the best method is. Good luck with your sick fish.


No bud I don't, I have an anxiety disorder that makes me always question so I ask many different people that's all, my main concern was the prazipro being in the tank and having to dose the rid ich, I stayed awake 28 hours just so I could call hikari to get information on their product, I dont like dosing meds but it's the fastest way to kill the ich as these fish are so small they would of died in the 2 weeks it takes to do the heat method, I don't do TTM because the fish are already stressed enough from the ich but most hobbyists do TTM, sorry if it came across that I was questioning your advice 

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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Ick is the most common disease we see in the hobby, and is the easiest to cure. It’s also a top killer, paradoxically. In 10 years of activity on several forums, I’ve never once seen anyone suggest that as a method of treatment. I must have seen 1000 threads on ick. So yeah, there’s a clear disconnect on that one. Only one of us can be right on that 

Let me explain my frustration - it’s not about the second guessing. It’s the incorrect assumptions you keep making about everything. My father is like that - comes up with reasons why something won’t work that are not legitimate problems, or that are based on a faulty or incomplete understanding of the subject matter. Literally every single issue you’ve raised with regards to the heat treatment falls under those scenarios. This latest one is just another example - the fish are too small to survive the 2 week treatment?? 

I’m not trying to be mean or anything, but you talk like you’re en expert on treating ick, but nothing you’ve said about it thus far supports that notion. Anxiety disorder or not, you gotta appear like you’re open to receiving new information or people will lose interest in trying to help you. I think that’s true of life in general. As an example, instead of incorrectly stating that your fish are too small to survive the treatment, I’d rather you second guess and ask if the fish are too small for the treatment. Myself and others are always happy to answer questions - that’s how dialog happens. What we don’t like to do is try to help someone who’s cup is already full.....

So back on point - unless you’ve heard otherwise from the manufacturer, I would remove the prazipro meds from the tank and treat for ick, resuming the prazipro treatment from the beginning once the ick is cured.


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## p0tluck94 (Nov 27, 2017)

jaysee said:


> Ick is the most common disease we see in the hobby, and is the easiest to cure. It’s also a top killer, paradoxically. In 10 years of activity on several forums, I’ve never once seen anyone suggest that as a method of treatment. I must have seen 1000 threads on ick. So yeah, there’s a clear disconnect on that one. Only one of us can be right on that
> 
> Let me explain my frustration - it’s not about the second guessing. It’s the incorrect assumptions you keep making about everything. My father is like that - comes up with reasons why something won’t work that are not legitimate problems, or that are based on a faulty or incomplete understanding of the subject matter. Literally every single issue you’ve raised with regards to the heat treatment falls under those scenarios. This latest one is just another example - the fish are too small to survive the 2 week treatment??
> 
> ...


I understand that and in my earlier post I stated I contacted hikari whom Makes prazipro, all fish are great except the jerks will Only eat my hikari tubifex, won't touch my omega I bought to hold me over until I get my new life spectrum on the 6th, I hope they eat that if not I'll have to choke some fish out lol, I've only been doing this 8 years I've had ich one other time besides this that killed 8 loaches because I was told on a forum to use rid ich plus so I hope you can understand my worries, I've not had many issues with my tank ich 2x now (second was my fault) as I couldn't qt due to my qt tank got ripped down after I lost my loaches and almost gave up the hobby, I take advice very well but from the eight years I've been doing this I've been told never to do more than 50% unless I have a catastrophic event like a chemical gets in the tank, I know people that do 70% in grow out tanks I am just personally not knowledgeable enough to trust myself to do that big of a water change, sorry again. 

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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

The only time you should be concerned about doing a very large water change is if you haven’t been doing water changes for a while. It’s not like 50% is a magic number or anything. If your tank water is similar to your source waters chemistry, then you can change as much water as you want without concern. If the pHs are way off then yes you should be mindful.

As with anything, there’s more than one way to change out a large volume of water without doing a large water change. A series of smaller water changes accomplishes the same thing.


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## p0tluck94 (Nov 27, 2017)

jaysee said:


> The only time you should be concerned about doing a very large water change is if you haven’t been doing water changes for a while. It’s not like 50% is a magic number or anything. If your tank water is similar to your source waters chemistry, then you can change as much water as you want without concern. If the pHs are way off then yes you should be mindful.
> 
> As with anything, there’s more than one way to change out a large volume of water without doing a large water change. A series of smaller water changes accomplishes the same thing.


So like my tap water is 7.3 pH and my tank is 7.4(because of my Texas holey Rock) I would have to do a large water change over say a hour or so period so the pH doesn't dip by 1 or is one fine as I believe that's what's allowed when using co2?

I do 30% weekly and my water parameters are always perfect
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 15-20(lightly planted)
Ph 7.4
Phosphate 1.2
Kh 6
Gh 6

But yes your right I didn't do 50% I did 30-35% , what I should have done is run carbon for 24 hours but after hikari said it would be fine I decided that in my fishes best interest to do the water charge and dose immidiately the rainbows I have are rare and can't find them anywhere. 

Wish they weren't so small and so hard to sex so I can see what my ratio is. 






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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

If your tank water is 7.4 and your tap water is 7.3 then you can do 100% changes without concern. They’ll adjust to the 0.1 as the tank refills.

If your tap was 7.3 and your tank were 6, then doing such a large change would probably shock the fish. A more normal change, like your 30%, would limit the magnitude and speed of the swing, allowing the fish to adjust. If you needed to do a huge change in this scenario, then a series of progressively larger changes would do the job. Doing a bunch of 30% changes will eventually clear the water of, let’s call it a contaminant, but the more small changes you do the less effective they are at removal. The series of water changes is for adjusting your fish to a much different pH - once adjusted a final massive change will clear the water while not shocking the fish.

Yes running carbon will do the trick too. In an emergency type situation though, I wouldn’t wait for carbon to do its thing.

50% and 35% is essentially the same thing. You aren’t going to shock the fish with that extra 15%. But again, because your pH is so close to your source waters pH, you really have nothing to worry about changing any amount of water.


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## p0tluck94 (Nov 27, 2017)

jaysee said:


> If your tank water is 7.4 and your tap water is 7.3 then you can do 100% changes without concern. They’ll adjust to the 0.1 as the tank refills.
> 
> If your tap was 7.3 and your tank were 6, then doing such a large change would probably shock the fish. A more normal change, like your 30%, would limit the magnitude and speed of the swing, allowing the fish to adjust. If you needed to do a huge change in this scenario, then a series of progressively larger changes would do the job. Doing a bunch of 30% changes will eventually clear the water of, let’s call it a contaminant, but the more small changes you do the less effective they are at removal. The series of water changes is for adjusting your fish to a much different pH - once adjusted a final massive change will clear the water while not shocking the fish.
> 
> ...


Okay I see now and yes that's why after hikari told me there would be no issue (anxiety mashed me over think), I said okay forget carbon I have to do this, these fish are only like 2-3 weeks old, just got them a few days before I posted, this was my own fault tbh as I should have my qt tank set up and established I should have never impulse bought them to put directly into my main. 

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## p0tluck94 (Nov 27, 2017)

p0tluck94 said:


> Okay I see now and yes that's why after hikari told me there would be no issue (anxiety mashed me over think), I said okay forget carbon I have to do this, these fish are only like 2-3 weeks old, just got them a few days before I posted, this was my own fault tbh as I should have my qt tank set up and established I should have never impulse bought them to put directly into my main.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Makes me over think* couldn't edit my post 

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## p0tluck94 (Nov 27, 2017)

I do have another question though, I know the directions on the bottle say do 25% every day before dosing, today I have a window company in my home replacing windows so it's quite cold in here, I do have heaters for my tanks but I unplug them when doing a water change, with it being so cold my tank temp would drop extremely fast, my water change is due in an hour as well as my third dosing, would it be okay to not gravel vac today and just dose (reason I ask is last time i had ich I was doing a pwc every other day not every day), or should I wait until the house warms back up and then do my pwc and treatment? Simply put can I skip the pwc today or just wait and do a pwc and dose the tank in 3-4 hours after the house regulates? 

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