# Dying fish and cloudy water



## Steph

I have a 29 gallon tank that has been establied for 2 months. The past couple of days it has gotten cloudy and last night my 5 damsels were all in a group. This morning they were all dead. However, I have a shrimp, anemone, and snails which are still alive. I checked my water and everything seemed fine. I took the water in to the pet store for a second opinion and they said it was good. Saliity was perfect. The temp. is 78-80. I got two new damsels because I was told the water was fine and three hours after putting them in the tank, they died as well. The fish were properly acclimated. Please help!! What is going on?  :-?


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## onefish2fish

could you please post more about your tank? filtration, water source, flow, lights, all livestock, how many inches your substrate is and what kind, what exactly were your test results and what test kit were you using, salinity? and hydrometer or refractometer? how much live rock, what was the last thing you changed in your tank? how often do you water change? feed? and what? and anything and everything else you can include.

welcome to the forum.


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## Steph

*cloudy tank dying fish*

ok, here are the specs of my tank. My filter is a Bio-wheel with two spouts coming from it with the filtered water. I used tap water to fill my tank , but did put a water purifier in it. I have two flourescent tubes that are natural dylight and I do turn the lights off at night. I currently have six snails, three hermit crabs, one peppermint shrimp, an anemome, and a live rock. I have coral substrate that is about 2 inches deep. Salinity is 1.023, ph is 8.2, Amonia is .6, nitrate is 40, and nitrite is .8 maybe 1.0. I have not made any changes of any sort recently. I change water 1 or 2 times a month. About 25%. I feed twice a day with Ocean Nutrition Brand- Prime Reef Flakes. Also feed brine shrimp. Hope this helps. :-? 

Thank You for helping.


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## Pasfur

{sigh}

Ok. Here we go again. This situation seems to come up every week. It is a real shame that we can't catch these mistakes ahead of time, but at least we can help fix them before you get to far along.

First off, you have to be very patient in the marine hobby. You have way to much livestock for an aquarium that is only 2 months mature. Your poor anemone has absolutely zero chance of survival in this system. The LFS employee should be slapped upside the head for allowing you to purchase this animal without asking a lot of questions about your system and your experience level. These are very sensitive animals and require advanced care. Not only are you missing the proper equipment to keep an anemone, you do not have a mature or even remotely stable environment.

First we need to address your filtration. The BioWheel is not an appropriate filter for a marine aquarium. This filter adds Nitrate to your water, and traps nutrients which cause phosphate buildup and a depletion of carbonates. Keeping a stable alkalinity in these type of setups is very difficult, and over the long haul extreme algae blooms usually occur. Additionally, your goal is to reduce Nitrate to zero, so why use a filter that adds NItrate to the aquarium? This just doent' make any rational sense at all. AGain, why did the LFS sell you this piece of equipment?

You say you have "a live rock." Did you know that live rock is the basic foundation of any marine aquarium system. You need between 30 and 45 pounds of rock, minimum, your size aquarium. Live rock creates the stability that you need for success in keeping these delicate systems. The live rock will actually serve as your only biological filter source, actually breaking down ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate into Nitrogen Gas, which is harmelss and leaves the system naturally. This is how we keep successful marine aquariums. Live rock. 

In addition to the Live Rock you have to have a protein skimmer. I can not say this enough. Your filtration system is grossly inadequate. The protein skimmer removes organic acids prior to being broken down biologically. When used along with Live Rock, the skimmer stabalizes the overall system. The removal of organics allows for stable alkalinity and calcium levels, which are the 2 most critical tests you should be performing weekly on your aquarium. If these levels are not correct, the ions which make "saltwater" will not be in proper balance and the entire system becomes unstable. These things do not show on an ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, or salinity test. It is a requirement to test and control your alkalinity and calcium levels. Additives will be needed and a routine should develop.

Finally, your sand bed is not the proper depth for long term success. You need less than 1'' or greater than 4''. Anyting between 1'' and 4'' will trap nutrients causing long term stability problems. This occurs because of oxygen flow, which is not correct at these depths to allow for denitrifying bacteria to grow.

Can you post some pics? {edit: pics of the tank, that is. I'm getting married sunday, no reason to get carried away.}


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## Steph

At this point, what is the best plan for me to do with this aquarium? Should I completely start over or what? My water is still very cloudy despite no fish in the tank and a new filter and water parameters are good. What should I do??


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## onefish2fish

what is a "new filter?"

honestly i think now is a great chance to get some solid research in.


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## Steph

My filter is a Marineland Eclipse Filter. I replaced the cartridge which has activated charcoal.


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## Pasfur

As I mentioned, the Eclipse filter is really of no use on a marine tank. The ONLY improvements to water quality are the removal of ammonia and nitrite. On the other hand, it makes the water quality worse in many other ways. (alkalinity, calcium, magnesium, phosphate, Nitrate) Given that we have other methods of eliminating ammonia and nitrite, there is just no reason for this filter selection on a marine tank.

If you gave me your tank today, I would break it down and start over, using the post above as a guide. I agree with OF2F that this is a perfect time to research. In the end, you want a beautiful marine aquarium. Lets make it happen. Lets just do it the right way so that you can truly enjoy the tank for many years to come.


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## Steph

What type of filter would you reccomend? I bought this aquarium as a package. The tank, filter, heater, it all was in the same box and stated to be for a saltwater aquarium. Also, you say now is a good time to do some research, ok, where can I get this solid research? I have been reading for the past six months about salt water tanks and so far all I seem to be getting is everyone contradicting each. I've been told can't use gravel, have to use coral substrate, then been told run tank for 24-48 hours and then go ahead put fish in other person told me no, no, no run tank for a month then add fish!??! If you can tell where to get the best info, would be great. Thanks.


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## onefish2fish

a local reefing club.

no filters, a hang on protein skimmer would work, personally i would make a DIY sump out of a use tank and i wouldnt use gravel or crushed coral...i would use sand ( less then 1'' or 4-6''s anything else causes problems ) 

everyones going to have their own opinions and ways of doing things, personally i suggest reading as much of anything/everything you can and make your own choices/ask questions.


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## Pasfur

I agree everyone is going to have their own opinions, however, when it comes to the basics of a successful marine setup, you will find a lot of consistencies. These include heavy protein skimming, live rock, and the proper depth of aragonite sand. There may be some small differences in the extras, such as the use of a UV Sterilizer or refugium. But you would be hard pressed to find experienced hobbyists who do not use these 3 items as the foundation of their success. (The only exception might be algae scrubbers, but these are not very popular in the U.S.)

In my opinion the best research is to read "build" threads and "tank of the month" type columns. These are generally found in the "pictures and videos" section. On this forum, the follow build threads are by experienced hobbyists who visit regularly:
http://www.fishforum.com/saltwater-fish-pictures-videos/pasfurs-180-reef-build-21979/
http://www.fishforum.com/saltwater-fish-pictures-videos/kellsindells-build-19093/
http://www.fishforum.com/saltwater-fish-pictures-videos/codys-40g-reef-build-20018/
http://www.fishforum.com/saltwater-fish-pictures-videos/onefish2fishs-new-one-round-2-a-20611/
http://www.fishforum.com/saltwater-fish-pictures-videos/skaustins-reef-diary-2790/
There are very many more that you will find if you browse the threads. These are just the ones that I have personally visited the most and enjoyed reading.

You will also benefit from certain web sites. You can tell the ones that are just trying to sell you something from the ones that are for informational purposes. Here are a couple that I really enjoy and visit frequently. I suggest reading the Tank of the Month columns.
Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine - Volume IV
2008 Monthly Index - Reefkeeping Magazine This one is my personal favorite. The past issues are easy to browse and you can learn a TON from reading the Tank of the Month articles. There are 8 years archived, so I would guess there are at least 80 tanks that you can read up on. 

As you do this, I challenge you to find a single person who uses a biowheel system. In fact, you will probably not find a single person who uses a biological filter of any kind, other than live rock.-)

As for books, I suggest going to the local library and checking out "The Reef Aquarium" by Jullian Sprung and Charles Delbeck. It is a 3 part series. Keep in mind, regardless of the type of aquarium you want, be it fish, fish and invert, fish only with live rock, or reef... they all follow the same basic principles and should be set up the same way. The only real difference is lighting.

For magazines, I personally subscribe to Aquarium Fish Magazine, Aquarium Fish International, and Freshwater and Marine Aquarium Magazine (FAMA).

Finally, do yourself a favor and read some articles by Randy Holmes Farley. He is the worlds expert on chemistry in the marine aquarium. You especially need to understand alkalinity, calcium, pH, and magnesium and how they all relate to each other.

That should help.-)


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## Steph

I was told yesterday that my whole problem could be my condy anemone. Is this possible? My water has cleared up and the levels are good as well as he salinity. However, my last damsel died. All my fish die at night time and I was told they are probably running into the anemone and getting stung. ??


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## Pasfur

Steph said:


> The levels are good as well as he salinity


This entire thread has been about LONG term success. Having zero ammonia and nitrite, along with a correct pH and low nitrate... these are a GIVEN. This is just the very first step. You have to look 6 months down the road at how the aquarium will progress. Having stable alkalinity, calcium, magnesium, and zero Nitrate are the long term concerns. 

Again, your tank is not set up properly for care of marine animals. I am simply being honest when I tell you that your lack of experience is very obvious. You need to start taking advice from people who have had long term success in this hobby, not from a guy who is paid to sell something to you.


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## joemac

I would start over with a new tank and proper equipment. Your tank you have now would make a nice fresh water system


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## Steph

Everyonr keeps telling me to get proper equipment. I bought this aquarium as a kit, it is a Marineland brand and has everything in it for a saltwater aquarium!! Please tell me what the proper equipment is?! Also, I did a whole new set of water tests and everything is perfect, so I hate to dump it out to to start over. Ex: ph 8.0, nitrites 0, Amonia 0, and salinity 1.023. Also the water has cleared.


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## wake49

To start:

The proper "equipment" is: 

If you click the underlined blue type, it will bring you to an example of each.

(1) protein skimmer This is the example I have, I like it.
(2) Deep Sand Bed This is aragonite sand. should be between 4-6" deep.
(3) Live Rock this can be bought at your local fish store, might need to cure an additional 2-4 weeks for die-off. I would suggest 1-1/2 to 2 lbs per gallon.
(4) Powerheads these increase water flow and oxygen flow in the water.
(5) Test Kits I linked you to KH/Carbonate and Calcium test kits, but you'll also need to test for Magnesium, Nitrates, Nitrites, Ammonia and pH, Temerature and Salinity.
(6) Hydrometer Tests Salinity
(7) Thermometer

If you plan on incorporating a sump, let us know. This equipment will get you started for FISH ONLY. If you want to start keeping corals and inverts, some other things are needed.


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## onefish2fish

personally i dont like that skimmer and i suggest a refractometer over a hydrometer anyday as the hydroms dont tend to be very accurate. ebay has refractometers for $20-30.


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## wake49

What skimmer would you see fit for a Fish Only tank? Or any tank for that matter?


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## onefish2fish

theres a few i like, just thats not one of them.


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## wake49

To each his own. I have been using it and find that it skims nicely. I get a full collection cup of dark skimmate every couple of days, and the controls are easy to adjust.

Have you personally had a problem with this skimmer? If so let me know what I should watch out for.


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## onefish2fish

yea if the things working for you why change it. ive just heard that these skimmers could be better.


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## wake49

Oh, I apologize. It sounded as if you were speaking from experience, rather than just regurgitating information you read somewhere else.


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## Kellsindell

I've never used it before either, but i can send you to many many members in my club that have used it and absolutely hated it if you want a personal ref en regards


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## wake49

Heresay.

The thing works fine, and I have given reason as to why it works. It skims good, has easy adjustments, and is easy to clean. Neither person posting about how they don't like it have given reason as to why. Just these "friend of a friend doesn't like it" stories. I would prefer someone who has PERSONALLY had a problem with it to post about the problem. 

Too many times on these internet forums there are people not speaking from experience, but from something they read; someone else's opinions. The idea of these forums is share our OWN experiences to help each other. For example, how can I honestly testify that a certain light has electrical problems if I have never experienced these problems? I simply couldn't.

And if people are so dead set against this skimmer, than why don't they suggest one TO use? (I am going to predict that the more expensive units get recommended here, because price OBVIOUSLY dictates quality) 

A proper way to have addressed my post (in which I was only trying to HELP the OP from my personal experience) would have been as follows: "I personally use the Berlin X2 skimmer, I like its turbo injector option...etc." 

I did like that 1f2f directed the OP towards a refractometer instead of a hydrometer. Since I have no experience with refractometers, I just suggested what I use.

thank you


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## onefish2fish

word of mouth is communication. the way i see it is, the more people post the more new ideas get introduced and points of view. 

as for the skimmer, yes i have heard that it could have better skimming capabilities. ive even seen it in person. that is why i steered away from buying it, i read about things to make a smart purchase. price isnt always quality but alot of times you get what you pay for. my skimmer is no where near the price of $1,000 ones which id love to have but still does a great job. its an MRC-MR2 skimmer and i have options to upgrade to all sorts of ways. i also have an ASM which seemed to work well, and an MTC skimmer. i really like the cone skimmers, but they arnt cheap. 
as for the hydrometer and refractometer, spending the $20 or so dollars for it is a must if you keep saltwater IMO because its way more accurate.


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## wake49

Is there some number of milliliters of skimmate a week a skimmer should produce? Or should I have to empty the collection cup a certain number of times? 

I have it set on the lowest setting, and get a cup full of dark skimmate once a week. I am generally happy with it. It works good as an in-sump model, like I have it.

I unfortunately do not have a limitless supply of my parent's money to just go on a spending spree for my tank. I have to budget accordingly. I did a good job of this; I bought a new HO T5 unit (to replace the MH I was unhappy with), the skimmer, a new 3-stage timer, and an additional powerhead. I had to buy a new 15 gallon to use for a sump (I cracked the last one), and added a check valve to my pump. I was lucky to stay within my budget, but I am now unable to buy anything but essentials for the next few months. If I can scrape up a few bucks, I am going to buy a refractometer; I am ultimately saving for a RO/DI unit.

My major point is that this is a VERY expensive hobby, and I have other responsibilities (a house, 2 dogs, 2 cockatiels, a fiance...). I am not the only person who has to buy a less expensive skimmer so I can buy a nice lighting fixture, and fix a cracked component, etc... There is no reason to deter anyone from doing this. At least I am using a skimmer, even if your friends don't approve of it.


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## Kellsindell

> I've never used it before either, but i can send you to many many members in my club that have used it and absolutely hated it if you want a personal ref en regards


I can get you to people in my local club that have had this issue. just let me know and i can have them pm you. 

I have used skimmers by aquaC and love them. they aren't expensive and are well made. Another that's a bit more expensive is the EuroReef but are very effecient, even moreso then AquaC, are self cleaning.


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## wake49

What issue are you speaking of?

And I am not buying another skimmer for a good while, I am saving for a RO/DI unit. So I don't care about whoever has a reason to badmouth this skimmer. I did my homework and read dozens of online reviews, and still felt that this skimmer would be a good fit for me. I'm not sure if you read through my post, but this skimmer works great for me. This skimmer produces a dark skimmate, at least once a week. What else do I need a skimmer to do? Feed my fish? Heat my tank? It skims organic compounds at a decent rate. 
It does its job.

At this point, it seems like someone is just bent on proving this is a bad piece of equipment. This skimmer is good for someone with the patience to set it up, and adjust it accordinagly after the break-in period. Maybe the people in your "reefing club" are just impatient. I don't know why you have such a vendetta against a skimmer that has done you no personal harm. It does me just fine.


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## Pasfur

Wow, I go away for 2 days and the regulars are in disagreement over a simple issue. What gives on this?

Steve Austin is one of the long running experienced hobbyists who post on this forum. He uses the Coralife on his 75 gallon reef, with very clear success. Just look at his build thread. At the same time, he has on this same thread, expressed numerous complaints about the skimmer. Again, just read the build on his 75 gallon reef, which I linked earlier. He plans to upgrade, but sees no urgency. 

Bottom line, the "user friendliness" of the skimmer often leads to complaints, but it is very adequate at doing its job, which is removing organic waste. I can express the same conclusion about the SeaClone skimmers, which I have personally used on many aquariums.


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## chrismcdonald

*29 gal kit*

I was at petco last night and i ran into one of these 29 gal "Saltwater water" Kits. The only thing that this kit has that you cant get in a fresh water kit is the salt water mix. Its realy sad that a big name pet store like Petco is selling this kit two new people looking to get into the hobby.:-(

My sad sister payed for this kit lol poor girl all she wanted was a tank for a clown fish lol. When you open the kit there is a howe to guide only 6 pages long. So this kit is trying to take all the info i have learned in hafe a year and crame it into a 6 page howe to guide am i missing some thing. The howe to guide dose not have any info on skimmers and realy tells you two use tap water for your salt mix with no filter.:evil: 

With kits out there like this no wounder people have a hard time in the Salt water Aquariums. My point is me being new two this hobby my self i feel when people fall for this type of scam. Look this gose out to any one new if you find a salt water kit for $400 dont get it you cant start any marien aquarium for 400. Do your home work and stay away from kits thats all you can do the KITS suck my sister paid all that money and the only thing in the kit she is going to use is the tank its self she could have gottin a nice 55 gal for that price.


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## Pasfur

I have often wondered why people treat animals different than other things in their life. If you see a sign that says "get rich in 30 days" you immediately ignore the sign and laugh at the stupid scheme. When you see a car commercial for 0% interest and $5,000 cash back you laugh and know it is a commercial.

But when it comes to pets people turn into 5 year old children and want everything immediately, without work, and without spending much money.

Someone explain this to me.


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## chrismcdonald

you want something fast save your money and get a dog no no no they need to bring back Geiga Pets remember them the lil key cain computer pets.


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## wake49

LOL, Mark. I have two dogs (mutts), two cockatiels, and my S/W Tank.

We installed a fence that cost us well over a thousand dollars to keep the dogs in the yard. I had to install a $500 door to keep the dogs out of the bird's ROOM (that's right, they get their own room). I have had to install timers for the birds to put them on a lighting schedule, and gates around the house to keep the dogs in check while we're gone. 

The Pet Budget is higher than the food budget. While I eat frozen and canned food, my fiance has spent twice as much on dog food for the natural stuff, to reduce scratching and shedding. 

And my saltwater tank. We joke because last year I put twice as much into my fish tank as my IRA; $4000+ to get the tank up and running. A few dollars were mistakes that could have been avoided. 

When I made the transition to saltwater from fresh, I bought a new tank, stand and all the accessories the Pet Supplies Plus manager could pawn off on me. For Freshwater these would have been fine. He sold me a Fluval 304 canister filter, 40 lbs of crushed coral, a glass hood and a regular flourescent light, like 24w. I went to my LFS and had to buy like 80 lbs of live sand, and let that cycle for 2 weeks. Then I bought 40 lbs of Live Rock and let that cycle for two weeks. Then I added a fish, a fairy wrasse. It was 3 weeks until I added a pair of percula clowns. 3 months after that I started putting softies in my tank with LPS a little while after that. 

I ditched the canister shortly after joining this forum, and added a continuous siphon overflow and a 15 gallon sump with an eheim compact+ pump. I added a Seaclone 100 protein skimmer, and a 2x250w metal halide w/ 2x65w PC actinics. I recently purchased a 6 lamp HO T5 because the MH was too much power in my opinion, and I feel a need to try and be a little responsible about energy consumption. I also bought a new protein skimmer.

Both me and my fiance feel an importance to making sure our animals our comfortable and cared for, no matter what the expense (in our budget of course). I have learned a lot on this forum, and from my LFS. I wished I had researched more before buying the tank, as 1f2f always says, but unfortunately I joined the forum after I bought. I would have gone with a reef-ready tank, and would have saved a lot of trial and error. Now I know when I upgrade in gallons what to do and what NOT to do...but until then, I am happy with what I have.


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