# These fish okay in a 75gallon?



## au01st (Sep 3, 2008)

I'm currently setting up a 75gallon reef system. I just ordered my protein skimmer and powerheads. I'll have the salt and other accessories next week, live rock within a month, some inverts, then hoping to have my first fish by the end of November or early December.

Here's a list of fish I was looking at, in the order I plan to add them to the tank at 3-4 week intervals, and the Mandarin sometime around the end of next summer.

2 Percula Clownfish
1 Banngai Cardinalfish
1 Firefish
1 Six Line Wrasse
1 Royal Gramma
1 Flame Angelfish or Coral Beauty
1 Mandarin Goby

How many hermit crabs and/or snails and/or shrimp for a clean up crew should I have in this setup?

4x54watt T-5 lighting, as I will want some corals/polyps, etc. I will have around 100-120lbs of live rock, and should have around 2200gph of flow around the tank (taking a 5ft head and everything into account, 2000gph flow minimum under worst conditions). 29gallon sump will house an 8gallon refugium and hold the heater, skimmer, and phosphate reactor. Dual 500gph pumps (measured 250gph each at the head) each with a check valve will pump the water back up and out of a spray bar. I think I've done my homework, but if I'm missing anything, let me know. How does the fish list look? Can I add any more?


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

i think that looks pretty good.. 

i would just recommend a QT for the fish before adding to your main tank.
and if you havnt already research drip acclimation theres a pretty simple video about it on saltwaterfish.com

as for snails and hermits and all the fun critters, id start with a small group of a little bit of everything.. you can always add more
the reason is because if you over stock the clean up crew you'll see die off due to lack of food. 
dont forget to add empty shells for the hermit crabs, or else they will kill and eat the snails for their shells. i also heard scarlet hermit crabs are better algae eaters then blue legged hermit crabs ( dont know how true that is )
an idea start up stocking suggestion:
5-10 astrea snails ( good for rock and glass cleaning )
5-10 nassarius snails ( good for sand bed cleaning )
5 cerith snails ( good for rock/glass )
1-2 emerald crabs ( most likely will eat anything it can get into its mouth lol )
2 peppermint shrimp (said to be a good aptasia eater, ive never witnessed it first hand - dont keep an odd number, the last man out usually ends up dead)
5-10 hermits ( good at scavenging around the tank, keep empty shells )
your eventually prob. going to want a cleaner shrimp (fish will swim right up to this guy and he will clean the fish!! )

like i said YOU CAN ALWAYS ADD MORE, so dont overload the tank at first.. build them up and add them as you go

ofcourse theres a number of things to get for a CUC and i think its all personal prefrence, some people keep 0 hermit crabs, some keep lots, i personally like ive stated.. like alittle bit of everyone .. sand shifting starfish can be benificial as well.. ( i would def. avoid the green star fish [known as the Death Star for eating fish! ] and the linckia starfish that usually will do fine for a few weeks but starve to death ) and theres sea slugs, and cucumbers and so on and so on.. look at liveaquaria.com to get some more ideas..


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## au01st (Sep 3, 2008)

Yeah, I was looking at the "build your own" reef cleaner pack, and had a good mix of snails and crabs.

I know all about a QT tank and have a 20gallon set aside for the purpose. It will be a FOWLR and just standard florescents and will remain running throughout the life of my 75 tank. I've done plenty of research on methods and what not, just wanted to make sure my fish won't have problems with each other.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

au01st said:


> Here's a list of fish I was looking at, in the order I plan to add them to the tank at 3-4 week intervals, and the Mandarin sometime around the end of next summer.
> 2 Percula Clownfish
> 1 Banngai Cardinalfish
> 1 Firefish
> ...


In looking at your selection, I would suggest that you add the Six Line Wrasse and your choice of Dwarf Angel as the last fish additions to your tank. Each of these fish are far more aggressive than the others on your list, and could cause problems if introduced first.

I would never recommend keeping a Mandarin Goby. Very few hobbyists have long term success keeping this fish. In a much larger aquarium, say 220 gallons or more, a single Mandarin would have a much better chance of success. This is due to the extreme numbers of copepods the Mandarin consumes daily. The other fish on your list also graze on copepods, even further reducing the necessary population.


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## au01st (Sep 3, 2008)

Ok. Thanks for the advice. I guess the Mandarin is out. I will add the wrasse and angelfish last. I've actually changed the list around a little bit.

2 Ocellaris Clownfish
1 Purple Firefish	
1 Chalk Bass
1 Powder Brown Tang	
1 Kaudern's Cardinalfish
1 Potter's Angelfish
1 Long Fin Fairy Wrasse

Dropped the Mandarin, different clownfish, added a tang, different angelfish, and different wrasse.

Let me know if these will work. Again, they're listed in the order I plan to add them, but I still won't have the clownfish for at least another 4-6 weeks. I'm in no hurry and would like to have a setup that will last a long time with no quarreling inhabitants.

On the Mandarin, suppose in the future, I wanted one in his own tank (already picked his name.......Jerry Garcia, lol), what would be the minimum size for a tank with him, and just him?


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

au01st said:


> 2 Ocellaris Clownfish
> 1 Purple Firefish
> 1 Chalk Bass
> 1 Powder Brown Tang
> ...


If you use a refugium to develop a strong copepod population and have considerable live rock, then i suspect a 125 gallon reef setup could sustain a mandarin. However, I have very little confidence in this and would not personally attempt it. This fish needs to be left in the ocean.

By the way, you fish list just went from VERY EASY to keep to MODERATELY DIFFICULT. The Potters Angel is much more difficult to keep than a Coral Beauty or Flame. The Kaudern Cardinal will be a good fish, provided you buy a tank raised specimen. Wild caught Kauderns rarely live. 

The real problem is the Powder Blue Tang. This is a VERY difficult fish to keep. In fact, i would avoid every species of Acanthurus Tang unless you have a 400 gallon aquarium or larger. If you insist on a Tang, i would stick with the Zebrasoma Genus. This would include the easy to keep Yellow Tang, Sailfin Tang, and Scopas Tang. By the way, Centropyge Angels and Zebrasoma Tangs are best added to the aquarium at the same time.


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## au01st (Sep 3, 2008)

I did more research on the Mandarin and will leave that alone.

I can go back to the Coral Beauty Angelfish, I was just trying to add some color variation, instead of all orange.

It's a Powder Brown Tang. From what I read, they are smaller than the Blues, but again, this is why I asked. Will a Purple Tang fit in my 75gallon? I was under the impression they were larger. Also, could I add an Yellow Pyramid Butterfly instead of a tang?


I know these may not be perfect beginner fish, but I'm a beginner by no means. Though this is my first saltwater tank, I have a 55 freshwater in my bedroom, another in the bar, and back home (I'm at college) I have a 55 Cichild setup and a 400gallon pond that has to relocate residents inside in the winter. I have no problem with special needs or difficult fish, but I just want to do enough research to know what they need.

I plan on buying tank raised specimens whenever possible, and found a local store who buys mostly tank bred fish. He is also the one who's been helping me design my setup and make sure it's sufficient, and he matches all drsfostersmith.com prices. Last time I was there, I spent an hour talking to him, and didn't even buy anything; he went to his drawing board and calculated flow rates for the pumps I was looking at and did all the calculations to make sure I would have a good setup. I'm lucky to have a store like that close by.


Thanks again for the advice.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

au01st said:


> I can go back to the Coral Beauty Angelfish, I was just trying to add some color variation, instead of all orange.
> 
> It's a Powder Brown Tang. From what I read, they are smaller than the Blues, but again, this is why I asked. Will a Purple Tang fit in my 75gallon? I was under the impression they were larger. Also, could I add an Yellow Pyramid Butterfly instead of a tang?
> 
> ...


I understand where you are coming from. As an experienced freshwater hobbyist you feel like you can handle everything. From my experience in helping fishkeepers over the last decade or more, extreme freshwater experience can actually hinder the ability to maintain a successful saltwater tank. I advise you to use EXTREME caution when it comes to leaning on your personal fishkeeping experience. There is almost nothing from your freshwater background that will helpful in saltwater, with the exception of basic aquarium maintainance, such as cleaning impellers, replacing ballasts, etc. 

On the good side, I really admire that you are researching and gathering knowledge. Here is something to keep in mind. In freshwater, when we speak of fish being "difficult" to keep, it basically means that they need special water quality and feeding. In saltwater EVERY fish needs special water quality and proper feeding. The step up in difficulty from a Centropyge angelfish to a Butterfly fish is almost impossible to describe. Even the most hardy of Butterfly fish need a significant amount of space to thrive long term. A 75 gallon is not a large aquarium in the marine hobby. It is small. You will need to adjust to this mindset, because it is very different from the freshwater side of the hobby.

Back to the Tang... i misspoke when i typed Power Blue. I was speaking of the Powder Brown. Both are Acanthurus genus, so the comments apply to both species. They are both incredibly difficult to maintain in aquariums under 220 gallons, preferably 400 gallons or more.

I would encourage you to stick to your original list, with the possible addition of the fairy wrasse. By the way, the Coral Beauty Angel shows different color variations depending on the actual location it was collected from. Some varieties are almost orange, but deep purple color is not uncommon. My Coral Beauty has almost no orange at all. It is very deep purple, sometimes almost black. In fact, the Potters is generally more orange in color, on average.

If you want the body shape of a Tang or Butterfly, I suggest you look at the Kohl Tang or the Pearlscale Butterfly. Both are a moderate difficulty fish that will fit well in your size aquarium, provided you allow the aquarium to mature for several months prior to adding them to the tank.

As you can tell, i am passionate about the marine side of the hobby. Far to many hobbyists ignore the warnings and try to push the limits. They simply are not successful. Long term success requires great discipline in selecting the proper fish and even greater patience in finding a healthy specimen prior to purchase.


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## au01st (Sep 3, 2008)

I completely understand and I'm very grateful for the knowledge. It's why I ask. My skimmer and powerheads came Friday via UPS, man, those powerheads are strong. I checked the fitment of the skimmer under the tank and it's perfect with just enough room to remove the collection cup (though I will use the drain into a milk jug to make it easier). I had to order the skimmer first to measure for fitment in the sump setup so I can make that this week.

Also this week I'm ordering salt, a bunch of test kits, overflow box, phosphate reactor, and refractometer, and maybe the T5 lighting. I may be able to have live rock in there in another 2 weeks...

Thanks again.

So, list now goes:

2 Ocellaris Clownfish
1 Purple Firefish
1 Chalk Bass
1 Kaudern's Cardinalfish
1 Coral Beauty Angelfish
1 Pearlscale Butterflyfish
1 Long Fin Fairy Wrasse


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

just wanted to say great job on doing your research!


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Go ahead and make it 2 Firefish. They do best in pairs.


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## au01st (Sep 3, 2008)

I'll definitely do that. One purple and one orange, or both the same? Any chance I can add a Neon Goby too? I know they're small, 2", but I want happy inhabitants.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

I'd be worried about the Chalk Bass eating the Neon Goby's.

By the way, Fire Fish are jumpers. This can pose a serious problem in an open top reef setup. I overlooked this fact in my earlier post. I don't think they will work for you. They spend every second of their captive life looking for any possible escape!


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## au01st (Sep 3, 2008)

I have glass tops. So Could I do two Neon Goby's instead of the Chalk Bass? Or a Blenny instead of either of those? I completely forgot about Blennies, and every time I go to the store I love looking at them... I'm just trying to avoid having too much orange.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

This is interesting and something that i've never heard mentioned on an internet forum. So lets see what type of reaction this gets...

You don't use hoods on a reef. All reef systems should be run open top. Glass inhibits light penetration and retains heat, both of which are detrimental in a reef system.


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## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

How, then, is one expected to keep fish that are known jumpers, such as firefish?


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## au01st (Sep 3, 2008)

Hmmm, good to know. I had not read that in all my research. The light I got says it's supposed to be used over a glass lid because it doesn't have a splash guard. What now?


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## au01st (Sep 3, 2008)

Well, after doing more research, I should be able to hang my lights at 10" without problems, and I can make a splash guard out of acrylic when I get a chance, then lower the light down. I do plan on eventually making a canopy because I will eventually need MH lighting, but this will do for now.


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## au01st (Sep 3, 2008)

Well I was measuring the light unit to get an acrylic shield made, and there's a large sticker on the back "Only use over freshwater" despite what the box says "Great for marine and reef aquariums"... I called DFS and talked to them. I upgraded to the Nova Extreme T-5 with Lunar lights, and they didn't even charge me for the upgrade, and they shipped it out already with a pre-paid postage label for the other light to get shipped back.

To keep the fish from jumping out, I got some egg crate from Home Depot to make tops that will breathe air, but keep fish inside.


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## Cymig (Oct 5, 2008)

*Tips and Advices for tank starters*

I bump onto this nice video link on tank starters for salt water fish, real cool! YouTube - Saltwater Aquarium Fish Selection Advice


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## au01st (Sep 3, 2008)

Good video. I have narrowed down my fish:

2 Ocellaris Clownfish
1 Purple Firefish
1 Orange Firefish
1 Zebra Barred Dartfish
1 Coral Beauty Angelfish
1 Pearlscale Butterflyfish
1 Long Fin Fairy Wrasse

I hope to add my CUC within the next month or so:

15 Scarlet Hermit Crabs
5 Blue Leg Hermit Crabs
5 Turbo Snails
10 Cerith Snails
10 Nassaius snails

Will that suffice for now? More or less?

My new lights are in and over the tank, and I've already set up the timers: 9:30am Actinics on, 10:00am Daylight on too, 9:00pm Daylight off, 9:30pm Actinics off, 10:00pm moonlights on.

Final supplies should arrive today from Fed Ex. I'm still waiting on one piece of acrylic from the shop (they're having a hard time finding a 5/8" bit for acrylic but they say it'll be done). Rock will be ordered next week hopefully. I'm ordering some "dead" rock and will seed it with pieces from my LFS (cheaper for a college student than paying $9/lb at the LFS), and will make sure I have CA, Alk, and Mg right before I go adding corals and what not, and hope to get some Coraline algae going.

I plan to add softies and zoa's for now, next summer I may add 4 more T-5's to this, or redo the lighting, and move this light to a FOWLR tank where I want some more aggressive fish.


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## au01st (Sep 3, 2008)

Just an update. Got my tank cycling currently. I have about 10lbs of live rock in the tank with another 60 on the way. The sump is finished and working great, just waiting for the protein skimmer to break in. Hoping to have fish in the tank before the end of November.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

The water level in your sump looks a little high. Have you tested it by turning the power off? You want to make sure the sump has enough room to hold the backflow of water that occurs during a power outage.

In terms of ease of care, your fish selection looks nice. The Pearscale is the most difficult fish on your list, so make sure that tank is at least 5 or 6 months mature before adding one. You may also want to add the Coral Beauty at the same time as the Pearscale, otherwise you may see some compatibility difficulties arise. For the record, the Pearscale is not reef safe. The Coral Beauty is 50/50, with some working ok and others nipping on soft corals. I have a CB in my reef and it is fine.

I am not familiar with the Zebra Barred Dartfish, so perhaps someone else can offer advice there.


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## au01st (Sep 3, 2008)

I have tested power outages. The check valve on the pump side means that the only water coming in is off the overflow side down to the level of the teeth in the overflow box. Surprisingly it only fills about half of the area you see, there is still 1 1/2" left. When I built the baffles for the sump I left room for 5 gallons to overflow into the sump in the event of a power outage, and it is more than enough.


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