# Disappearing Nitrites and still no Nitrates, please help!



## whitecloud34 (Feb 22, 2011)

I really don't know what to do now or even know what went wrong. My tank has been cycling for just over 4 weeks now and last Tues. I finally got a low NitrIte reading of .25. The ammonia, which had been steadily right between 1.0 and 2.0 became a definite 1.0 and the NitrAtes was 0. I left the tank alone until today...No water changes, no testing, no adding fish, etc.

Today I just tested again and the pH went to 6.0 from like 6.4 on Tues. The ammonia was back up at 2.0 and the NitrItes was back to 0. Still 0 for NitrAtes.

What is going on? When I saw the Nitrite reading on Tues. I assumed there was great progress but now it's at 0? And still 0 Nitrates?

I have some goldfish and paradise fish in there and they are doing fine. 20 gallon temp. 76 no live plants. I use Prime. Please tell me if this with the nitrItes is normal and what to expect from here?


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Can you tell me how many of each species of fish is in the tank? How often you're feeding them, how much each time, and what foods? Also, what kind of test kits are you using? Have you done any water changes at all since adding the fish? If so, how much each time and how often, and did it include any gravel vacs? And... what kind of filtration do you have running on this tank?


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## whitecloud34 (Feb 22, 2011)

bettababy said:


> Can you tell me how many of each species of fish is in the tank? How often you're feeding them, how much each time, and what foods? Also, what kind of test kits are you using? Have you done any water changes at all since adding the fish? If so, how much each time and how often, and did it include any gravel vacs? And... what kind of filtration do you have running on this tank?


 
I have 2 comets and 2 paradise fish in there. I feed them crisp flakes once a day in the morning like a pinch (they all disappear in under a minute). I use the API liquid test kits. I have done a few small 20% water changes once in a while,maybe like once a week.I've been relying mostly on Prime to keep ammonia levels down because there is ammonia in the tap water. I do water changes with a gravel vac. I have a Aqueon filter in the tank for up to 30 gallons and it has a single carbon catridge, nothing else. No sponges or anything like that.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

How big are the fish?


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## whitecloud34 (Feb 22, 2011)

bettababy said:


> How big are the fish?


Oh they're no bigger than an inch each, mouth to end of tail. They're all about the same size.


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## whitecloud34 (Feb 22, 2011)

Ok I was hoping perhaps there was an error I did with testing and that I'd test again and it'd be fine but that isn't the case  Still the same amount of ammonia, 0 nitrites, 0 nitrates. I'm really hoping someone can tell me if this is normal cycling behavior.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

It sounds as if something is hanging up your cycle... 
When ammonia is present and being depleted before it converts fully to nitrite, it will slow down the growth of the bacteria colony and also the amount of conversion happening. 
What water conditioner are you using? What filter media? Any water changes since your first post? 
The trick is going to be in finding what is interrupting the cycle... I will do what I can to help you sort it out and get it fixed.
Also, how old are your test kits?


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## whitecloud34 (Feb 22, 2011)

bettababy said:


> It sounds as if something is hanging up your cycle...
> When ammonia is present and being depleted before it converts fully to nitrite, it will slow down the growth of the bacteria colony and also the amount of conversion happening.
> What water conditioner are you using? What filter media? Any water changes since your first post?
> The trick is going to be in finding what is interrupting the cycle... I will do what I can to help you sort it out and get it fixed.
> Also, how old are your test kits?


 
I learned that lower pH can hinder the cycle and my pH has went down to 6.0 so I think that's what happened. All along the pH was 6.8-6.4 but when it tested 6.0 that's when the nitrite reading disappeared. I use Prime as a water conditioner because we have ammonia in the tap water. As for the filter it's an Aqueon with just a single carbon catridge, no sponges or anything. I do 20% water changes like once a week. The API kits are brand new, I got them when I set up the tank 6 weeks ago. Right now I'm considering getting plants in there for the ammonia.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Things make a little more sense now. Using the Prime to eliminate the ammonia in the tap water is also going to help eliminate it in the aquarium. If the Prime is handling the ammonia then there isn't anything left for the bacteria to convert. As the week progresses and the ammonia begins a slow climb (likely ammonia beyond what the Prime is handling) then the cycling process will begin, just in time for you to do another water change, add more Prime, and deplete the ammonia again.
I am concerned about your dropping pH. That is not normal or safe for the animals, especially if it happens frequently. What dose are you using of the Prime? What is the ammonia reading that shows up in your tap water? Any nitrite or nitrate in the tap water?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

bettababy said:


> Things make a little more sense now. Using the Prime to eliminate the ammonia in the tap water is also going to help eliminate it in the aquarium. If the Prime is handling the ammonia then there isn't anything left for the bacteria to convert. As the week progresses and the ammonia begins a slow climb (likely ammonia beyond what the Prime is handling) then the cycling process will begin, just in time for you to do another water change, add more Prime, and deplete the ammonia again.
> I am concerned about your dropping pH. That is not normal or safe for the animals, especially if it happens frequently. What dose are you using of the Prime? What is the ammonia reading that shows up in your tap water? Any nitrite or nitrate in the tap water?


Dawn, if I may ask a question here, so that I understand correctly... Prime detoxifies ammonia by changing it to ammonium (so Seachem told me when I asked them) and nitrosomonas bacteria will use ammonium and ammonia, so that part of the cycle should not be affected. But Prime also detoxifies nitrite, by binding it somehow; would this make it "zero" with the API nitrite test?

Byron.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

I can't say for sure that is what is happening, but that is what it sounds like, and yes, it is possible, I have seen it happen before and the info provided thus far is pointing in that direction. 

I am still concerned here about the dropping pH. One of the few things that drops pH in situations like this is nitrate, and that is reading zero on the test kit.... which means either something is really "off" in the water chemistry regarding ammonia and nitrite, or there is something off with the test kit showing no nitrate. It is possible to get a bad test kit... and they do have limited shelf life, although API is one that has a longer shelf life than most. I have an API master kit here that is at least 4 yrs old and I am still getting accurate readings from it when I compare it to the new one. 

There is still a piece missing to this puzzle, we just need to figure out what it is so we can help fix it.

Another concern I have is the use of the Prime. I know the company says it can't be overdosed, and I do know a few people who use it excessively without problems, but, with that said, I also know that overdosing any water conditioner opens the risk of it dropping the pH and making a mess of the water chemistry. This is one of those situations where we just have to keep checking everything, asking questions, and working on process of elimination until we find it.


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## whitecloud34 (Feb 22, 2011)

bettababy said:


> I can't say for sure that is what is happening, but that is what it sounds like, and yes, it is possible, I have seen it happen before and the info provided thus far is pointing in that direction.
> 
> I am still concerned here about the dropping pH. One of the few things that drops pH in situations like this is nitrate, and that is reading zero on the test kit.... which means either something is really "off" in the water chemistry regarding ammonia and nitrite, or there is something off with the test kit showing no nitrate. It is possible to get a bad test kit... and they do have limited shelf life, although API is one that has a longer shelf life than most. I have an API master kit here that is at least 4 yrs old and I am still getting accurate readings from it when I compare it to the new one.
> 
> ...


Could it be that I have soft water? Byron helped me out a lot with learning about that and has told me his tank is similar with trending towards low pH. I used to use Prime every day when the pH was 7.0 but since learning most ammonia is automatically converted to less toxic ammonium I have stopped using it and just use it for water changes. The fish are still doing great. I don't know what's going on and I joke a lot about draining the tank and getting a hamster :shock: But I will attempt the planted tank and just hope they don't die like they have in the past. I really dont' think the API kit is old because I bought it in a busy Petco. Oh and our tap water has ammonia in it like almost 1.0. I don't know if that says anything! And thank you for your info and help.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I will just toss out some thoughts on this.

The pH will lower over time in very soft water, but it will not fluctuate other than with a water change, and that will be minimal. These wild fluctuations are likely connected to the "chemicals" entering the tank, like Dawn said.

You should find out the hardness of your water; every aquarist should know what comes out of the tap. You needn't buy a test kit, you may only use it once. Contact your water supply people, many have websites with the water analysis posted, or if not they can tell you. Ask for GH (general hardness) and KH (carbonate hardness), and write down whatever numbers they have. If you can't make sense of data on their website, post the link and I will look at it. Hardness can be discerned from several things.

Prime should only be used at a water change, and the amount should be appropriate to the volume of water being changed. I believe it was previously being added daily to handle ammonia, etc., and that I think is dangerous. It is not meant as some form of "tonic" to fix things. You've stopped that now, so that's good.

Prime detoxifies ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. We know it does the first by changing ammonia to ammonium, which still reads on ammonia test kits. The binding of nitrite and nitrate--perhaps these substances no longer read as such with test kits? This would explain why both are zero now.

Byron.


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## whitecloud34 (Feb 22, 2011)

Byron said:


> I will just toss out some thoughts on this.
> 
> The pH will lower over time in very soft water, but it will not fluctuate other than with a water change, and that will be minimal. These wild fluctuations are likely connected to the "chemicals" entering the tank, like Dawn said.
> 
> ...


Oh I actually emailed Seachem's website and asked them if Prime effects the readings of nitrites and nitrates and they told me that whether Prime is currently in the water or not nitrates will still show up on the API test kit. I am going to test everything again today to see if there are any changes. I haven't checked them in a while.


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## whitecloud34 (Feb 22, 2011)

Ok I checked the calendar and it's week 7 since I started fish-incycling

pH: 6.4
Ammonia: 2.0
Nitrites/Nitrates: 0


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Have you tried filtering the tap water using carbon instead of Prime to control the ammonia from the tap? This can be accomplished by putting tap water into a bucket or rubbermaid tub with a HOB filter with a cartridge containing carbon. Water changes are done after the water has filtered for 24 - 48 hrs. This will help to provide you with "clean" water going into the tank. PuraPad is a great media to use for this as it removes much more than carbon can and it is safe to use long term, and it lasts a long time so is not overly expensive. 

This method would help to ensure that the ammonia you are detecting in the tank is coming from fish waste, food waste, plant waste, etc and not tap water, and would allow you to try a different water conditioner, such as Aquasafe, to treat for heavy metals, chlorine, and chloramines. Aquasafe is my favorite water conditioner over all others on the market. (do not overdose it and only add it to clean water that needs to be treated)

The other question I have... how are the fish reacting to ammonia levels of 2.0?


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## whitecloud34 (Feb 22, 2011)

bettababy said:


> The other question I have... how are the fish reacting to ammonia levels of 2.0?


They seem to be okay. Before the pH became acidic and before the Prime they were hiding and not eating for a while. Then I put in the first dose of Prime and the very next morning they were swimming around scavenging for food and finally eating. I've stopped using the Prime (except during water changes) and they are still doing really well.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Byron, while I can't say for sure that the binding is causing the reading of 0, it does appear that the nitrite is where the cycle is hanging up in this situation. My personal thoughts on it would be a little different than the way you describe it... let me explain.

When you chemically bind something you affect the normal/natural breakdown of it. Think in terms of algae removal products... when it binds the algae causing the green water, it does just that... but it isn't removing it. That algae can no longer go through its natural cycle of breakdown or growth at that point, so what happens to it? 
Another example would be a product such as Easy Balance, which binds waste. When it first hit the market people went nuts thinking they no longer had to do water changes because they now had a chemical to get rid of it. This chemical doesn't remove it, it binds it... which can buy a bit of extra time between water changes if needed, but its all still there... and no longer breaking down in its natural process. So, without water changes, not only does the waste build, but it no longer breaks down to provide plant food, which is eventually expelled safely in a natural way if the environment is balanced. 

Now, in this situation, if the nitrite is being bound by a chemical, halting its natural break down between water changes, that would certainly explain how ammonia goes to nitrite, nitrite goes up and then disappears, never getting to nitrate. 

What I am suggesting here is that the whole process of handling the ammonia in the tap water be changed, eliminating a chemical that will bind anything... to see if that allows for nature to run its course normally. The only way for that to happen in the tank and keep it safe for the animals is to remove the ammonia going into the tank with each clean water change, but at the same time not adding anything to the water that may alter its process of natural break down. Carbon and PuraPad are the 2 options that I prefer. If ammonia fluctuates to real high levels in the tap water over the course of a yr, then PuraPad would be the way to go, filtering the water so its "clean" going into the tank with each water change. 

So, the ultimate solution here may simply be to work with a different water conditioner and to pre filter tap water.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Thanks Dawn, that explains it more clearly. So how about this; if one has ammonia in the tap water, but nothing further, use a conditioner that handles ammonia only, not nitrite and nitrate. The ammonia is detoxified by changing it to ammonium so there is no immediate toxicity, and the bacteria and plants can use the ammonium so it is handled naturally. Is this plausible?

This I am only suggesting as an alternative to running buckets of tap water through carbon, etc. I would hate to have to do anything like this in my 115g and 90g etc. tanks every week:shock:. I don't have this problem by the way, my tap water has nothing in it except chlorine. No minerals, nothing.

And, I completely agree with you on those "miracle tank cleaner" products. Many a time I have recommended members to discontinue them because they mess up the natural biological processes and in my view make matters worse.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Byron, one of the reasons I suggested the pre filtering of the water is due to the size of the tank and the species of fish being kept. When working with goldfish in a small tank ammonia is going to build much more quickly than with fish that would call that size tank a permanent home. Ammonia converted to ammonium is still going to convert down to nitrate, but instead of the actual waste of the fish producing ammonia that gives an end result of nitrate at 20, add in the extra ammonia in the tap water converting to produce a nitrate of 40, 60... which then creates a new problem. I am trying to help avoid that new problem by eliminating the original problem. Ultimately it would be counter productive if all of the "clean" water contributed to a higher nitrate level. 

Unfortunately, not everyone has tap water that is suitable for keeping an aquarium without some sort of human intervention. While it can be a pain/hassle to pre filter the water, many people do it, such as discus keepers and reef keepers who use RO water and/or must pre mix salt water. Sometimes that is just what comes along with wanting to keep what we desire, and if we're not willing to deal with the extra inconvenience, then we either need to change what we are keeping to eliminate those extra needs, or to find another type of pet to keep. 

So yes, your idea could work to help complete the cycle, but it could also bring with it some heavy consequences.


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## whitecloud34 (Feb 22, 2011)

I wish we had chlorine in our tap water instead of chloramine. We used to but about 7 years ago the city converted it to chloramine and there was this big hassle at the pet store about the change and that the current version of Start Right would no longer work. Well prior to that, when it was chlorine in the water, I had a beautiful 55 gallon tank and NEVER had the problems I'm having now. I would love to be able to filter tap water but just don't have the time or room to do it. I was hoping that the ammonia in the tap water wouldn't be a problem in the future due to the established cycle but, well, that was just wishful thinking I guess lol

So would plants solve this whole fiasco? Because when you have a heavily planted tank the plants absorb the ammonia/ammonium and so they never convert to nitrites and nitrates. Given my situation, do you think that'd be the only route I can go at this point?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

whitecloud34 said:


> I wish we had chlorine in our tap water instead of chloramine. We used to but about 7 years ago the city converted it to chloramine and there was this big hassle at the pet store about the change and that the current version of Start Right would no longer work. Well prior to that, when it was chlorine in the water, I had a beautiful 55 gallon tank and NEVER had the problems I'm having now. I would love to be able to filter tap water but just don't have the time or room to do it. I was hoping that the ammonia in the tap water wouldn't be a problem in the future due to the established cycle but, well, that was just wishful thinking I guess lol
> 
> So would plants solve this whole fiasco? Because when you have a heavily planted tank the plants absorb the ammonia/ammonium and so they never convert to nitrites and nitrates. Given my situation, do you think that'd be the only route I can go at this point?


Yes on the plant question. Plants assimilate a fair amount of ammonium directly as ammonium if present or as ammonia which they convert into ammonium. This solves the nitrate end issue Dawn mentioned. Most planted tanks have very low nitrates, due to the plants not the bacteria.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

My husband helped me to find another possibility for what is causing the problem. I need to do some research into Prime before I know if his concept would apply or not. Does anyone have a list of ingredients for Prime? If not I will see if I can locate the msds sheet on it. If he is right we aren't too far off, and the problem still goes back to the basic of using the Prime water conditioner.

In regards to the plant question for using up the ammonia, ammonium, and nitrate... yes and no. Its not impossible to use plants to find a balance in water chemistry, however... in a 20 gallon tank with 2 very small/young goldfish and paradise fish, its not going to be that simple of a fix either. Goldfish are vegetarian and will eat most species of aquatic plants, which makes quite a mess and creates a lot of plant debris. Plant debris breaks down and becomes ammonia... Paradise fish will also chew on and eat some species of live plants, so same problem. The other problem is that it takes a large amount of plants to use a small amount of fish waste. This is why in a "natural aquarium", to find balance, it requires a mass amount of plant life with very few fish. This situation doesn't accommodate those things to create the kind of balance Byron mentions. 

Goldfish grow extremely fast and are one of the dirtiest fish there are. Even starting with a pair of 1 inch goldfish, if healthy, they should outgrow that tank in a matter of 6 - 8 months (or less). The bigger the fish get the more waste output is going into the water. 

Now, if this were a 90 gallon fully planted tank, then for the first yr or 2, yes, this could be accomplished using plants. I hope that makes sense? If not, let me know and I will break it down and try to clarify better.


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## Amethyst123 (Mar 4, 2011)

This is a fascinating discussion. I thought (have read elsewhere on the internet and in aquarium books) that plants absorbed the nitrates. I've never before heard of plants helping to absorb the ammonia or ammonium directly. 

As for prefiltering water - I was doing that for several months for my neon tetras and bettas, because my tap water is about 7.6 to 7.8, and I know that, while they can adapt if necessary, both neon tetras and bettas prefer a lower pH, as well as softer water. I discovered by accident that the water coming out of my Pur pitchers had a pH of about 6.6 - 6.8, and was in the "very soft" range as opposed to the moderately soft range before filtering. Since my Pur pitchers only hold 7 cups at a time, and I have two bettas in a divided 10g and a school of neon tetras in a 14g, that was a lot of filtering. I recently discovered that the water I had just removed from my betta's tank had a higher pH than the regular tap water. I have no idea why, but I decided that if the lowered pH from filtering wasn't lasting I was wasting my time doing the prefiltering. I started gradually adding a higher percentage of tap water (conditioned to remove chlorine, chloramine, and other heavy metals) during water changes, and am now using all tap water, without prefiltering. Everybody seems fine. 

To bring this back around to the issue in this thread, I was wondering is if the type of filtering used by Pur, or the other big names for filtered drinking water would remove ammonia, and if so, if someone with ammonia at a toxic level for fish in their tap water might want to invest in a filter on their sink, so that all the water coming out of the filter has already had the ammonia removed. This would make prefiltering a lot easier. Would it work?


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## whitecloud34 (Feb 22, 2011)

bettababy said:


> My husband helped me to find another possibility for what is causing the problem. I need to do some research into Prime before I know if his concept would apply or not. Does anyone have a list of ingredients for Prime? If not I will see if I can locate the msds sheet on it. If he is right we aren't too far off, and the problem still goes back to the basic of using the Prime water conditioner.
> 
> In regards to the plant question for using up the ammonia, ammonium, and nitrate... yes and no. Its not impossible to use plants to find a balance in water chemistry, however... in a 20 gallon tank with 2 very small/young goldfish and paradise fish, its not going to be that simple of a fix either. Goldfish are vegetarian and will eat most species of aquatic plants, which makes quite a mess and creates a lot of plant debris. Plant debris breaks down and becomes ammonia... Paradise fish will also chew on and eat some species of live plants, so same problem. The other problem is that it takes a large amount of plants to use a small amount of fish waste. This is why in a "natural aquarium", to find balance, it requires a mass amount of plant life with very few fish. This situation doesn't accommodate those things to create the kind of balance Byron mentions.
> 
> ...


Yeah that makes sense. I'm not sure what to do now. It sort of seems like maybe it's the hardness of the water. I've read different threads here and there about "buffering" and crushed coral and I am not sure at all what that means. Something about adjusting the hardness? I don't know if there is something I can buy from the pet store that I can add to my water or filter to change the hardness so perhaps I can get my pH a little less acidic and maybe the cycle will finish.


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## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

There's no simple harmless compound related to nitrite... Could the Prime be converting the nitrite back into ammonium to make it harmless?


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## whitecloud34 (Feb 22, 2011)

redchigh said:


> There's no simple harmless compound related to nitrite... Could the Prime be converting the nitrite back into ammonium to make it harmless?


Well I emailed them about this whole thing. I asked if Prime affects the readings of nitrites and nitrates and this is what they said:

*Thank you for your question and for using Prime. Though Prime will not halt your cycle in any way, it can yield a false positive result on a nitrite/nitrate test kit, as it binds to these things. When bound to nitrites and nitrates, Prime makes them non-toxic and therefore unavailable to harm your fish. When this occurs, you will get a reading on your test kit for nitrites and/or nitrates if they are indeed present in the tank. In any case, when you get a reading for nitrate, irregardless of whether or not Prime is on the system, you can safely assume that the tank has fully cycled. This time is quite variable, though adding a bacterial supplement, such as Stability, will expedite the process. I hope this helps and that you have a wonderful evening! 
Product Support
*


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

bettababy said:


> My husband helped me to find another possibility for what is causing the problem. I need to do some research into Prime before I know if his concept would apply or not. Does anyone have a list of ingredients for Prime? If not I will see if I can locate the msds sheet on it. If he is right we aren't too far off, and the problem still goes back to the basic of using the Prime water conditioner.
> 
> In regards to the plant question for using up the ammonia, ammonium, and nitrate... yes and no. Its not impossible to use plants to find a balance in water chemistry, however... in a 20 gallon tank with 2 very small/young goldfish and paradise fish, its not going to be that simple of a fix either. Goldfish are vegetarian and will eat most species of aquatic plants, which makes quite a mess and creates a lot of plant debris. Plant debris breaks down and becomes ammonia... Paradise fish will also chew on and eat some species of live plants, so same problem. The other problem is that it takes a large amount of plants to use a small amount of fish waste. This is why in a "natural aquarium", to find balance, it requires a mass amount of plant life with very few fish. This situation doesn't accommodate those things to create the kind of balance Byron mentions.
> 
> ...


I concur. I had forgotten the fish species in this specific tank, and I agree that this is going to offset the balance. My fault, and apology whitecloud for missing this. As I am (I hope) always careful to point out in my remarks on live plants and cycling, the balance must be weighted on the plants with few fish. I have done this dozens of times so I do know it works, but one cannot overbalance nature and expect it to be OK. 

Byron.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

whitecloud34 said:


> Yeah that makes sense. I'm not sure what to do now. It sort of seems like maybe it's the hardness of the water. I've read different threads here and there about "buffering" and crushed coral and I am not sure at all what that means. Something about adjusting the hardness? I don't know if there is something I can buy from the pet store that I can add to my water or filter to change the hardness so perhaps I can get my pH a little less acidic and maybe the cycle will finish.


Do not start messing with buffering. That is entering a whole new area, and as one who has done it I caution you. Once the tank is cycled and established, any adjustment of water hardness can be reviewed. This at any rate is my suggestion.

The subsequent post with the response from Seachem is worth bearing in mind.

Byron.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Redchigh, this is what I am looking into at present. I first need to know the ingredients list for Prime, as whether or not this will happen depends on the mixture of ingredients. If this is what is happening then we were not too far off the mark that the nitrite is prevented from being converted to nitrate. 

I also have to agree here with Byron about messing with the buffering capacity of the water, especially until we figure out why the tank is taking so long or is unable to complete the cycle. There is something "off" in the water chemistry and the more changes you make the harder it will be to find out the actual problem and fix it. If pH is fluctuating from tank to tap then there is a cause and that needs to be resolved. Altering the pH artificially at this point would simply cover up the problem and likely cause more, and more dangerous problems later. 

In regards to the sink filtration, I would have to look into what method these filters use to filter the water. I know that not all home water filters are safe for aquariums/fish due to the chemicals they use for the filtration process, I just don't know the details of each filtering unit. 

I guess I am a little baffled at the difficulty of prefiltering the water using filter media and a small HOB filter. Because this is only a 20 gallon tank, a bucket or small rubbermaid tub would be plenty to filter 6 - 10 gallons of water at a time. A 7 gallon bucket would work nicely. Walmart sells cheap HOB filters that would hang on the side of a bucket or easier on a small rubbermaid tub. When preparing for a water change, simply use water from the bucket/tub to do the water change. 30% of 20 gallons is just over 6 gallons. There should be no reason to do a larger change than that at a time. Once the change is done on the tank, simply fill the bucket/tub back up and walk away, letting it filter until you need it again. PuraPad is also quite cheap because it lasts a long time/goes a long way. It comes in pad form and you simply cut a piece and stick it into the filter alongside of or in place of the regular media cartridge. Because there won't be much for it to remove, it would only need to be changed every 4 - 6 wks. 

My method is meant to be temporary, to help figure out what is going on in water that we do not have access to for our own testing. I have used this method myself many times over the years for various reasons, including research and testing. This is the easiest, least expensive method I know to obtain the results needed for a situation such as this. Using the prefiltering method would allow the stop to using Prime, which, if either of the 2 things that appear to be going on here are the problem, it would resolve quickly and the tank would quickly complete its cycling phase. Once we know for sure what is causing the actual problem then other safe methods can be discussed if needed. If prefiltering the water does not fix the problem, then we need to continue working at this to find out what is going on so we can get it fixed. Left alone to run like this long term could be dangerous to the fish, frustrating for the fish keeper, and could further contribute to the problem. Adding chemicals is not often the solution to a water chemistry problem in an aquarium, and any chemicals should be kept to a bare minimum (for the health of the fish and the wallet of the fish keeper).


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## whitecloud34 (Feb 22, 2011)

bettababy said:


> Redchigh, this is what I am looking into at present. I first need to know the ingredients list for Prime, as whether or not this will happen depends on the mixture of ingredients. If this is what is happening then we were not too far off the mark that the nitrite is prevented from being converted to nitrate.
> 
> I also have to agree here with Byron about messing with the buffering capacity of the water, especially until we figure out why the tank is taking so long or is unable to complete the cycle. There is something "off" in the water chemistry and the more changes you make the harder it will be to find out the actual problem and fix it. If pH is fluctuating from tank to tap then there is a cause and that needs to be resolved. Altering the pH artificially at this point would simply cover up the problem and likely cause more, and more dangerous problems later.


I have the bottleof Prime right here and there are no ingredients listed. It just has a warning saying to keep away from children, contains complexed hydrosulfite salts but that's all. 

I did a water change today and I didn't use the Prime. I used Start Right instead since the pH has the ammonia at ammonium anyways and the fish seem to be fine. Well I learned that Prime treats ammonia for under 24 hours and I haven't added it in a few days so I know the Prime isn't really needed. Anyway, after a 20% water change today the pH is now at 6.4 and I'm wondering: if I do small water changes like this several times a week to keep the pH at say, 6.8, (the tap water is about 7.6 pH) will that be a way to solve my problem and allow the cycle to resume? And if so, what would happen in the future if I just don't have time to do these water changes and the pH drops to 6.0 again? Will the cycle stall and crash again and then I'll have to start over? I'm willing to do the small water changes every few days...if that will fix things.


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## Amethyst123 (Mar 4, 2011)

I'm confused about something. Why would the pH be changing, either in whitecloud's tank where it appears to be dropping significantly, or in mine going up so much when I was prefiltering the water?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I am only addressing the issue of pH, raised by both of the last two posts. And this is meant to be general, not specific to this issue, which Dawn is assisting you/us with so I am not meddling in that. And it will be very general, what I find sufficient to understand what is occurring in the aquarium, without getting into complicated chemistry.

The pH is a measure of the ratio of two ions in the water: positively-charged hydrogen ions (H+) and negatively-charged hydroxyl ions (OH-). A neutral pH of 7 means an equal ratio; more hydrogen ions means acidic, more hydroxyl means alkalinity (what we now call basic water).

The pH is closely linked to the level of CO2 (carbon dioxide) and usually to the hardness that can affect this. CO2 produces carbonic acid which lowers the pH. In a normal aquarium, the pH lowers over time due to the acids produced by waste organic matter, respiration, biological filtrations, etc. Higher nitrates also lower pH. The level of bicarbonates affects the rate to which this will occur.

Water contains carbonates, depending upon the hardness. Carbonate hardness is measured in degrees or ppm of KH. Carbonates reduce the fluctuations in hydrogen ions, thereby reducing the lowering of the pH. This is why knowing the hardness of the source water is so important. The harder the water, the more carbonates, and the more it will resist changes in pH. But if at some point the carbonates are exhausted, the pH can suddenly drop, what is termed a pH crash. Regular water changes work to keep the balance because they replenish carbonates and dilute acids; they also remove nitrates but in planted tanks this is usually irrelevant. This obviously is also in proportion to the hardness.

I have extremely soft water, GH and KH are both at or less than 1 d (17.8 ppm) out of the tap. The pH is 7-7.2 [raised by adding ash or something, I can't remember what the water board does], and in established aquarium lowers fairly quickly (within a couple weeks in new tanks) to 6-6.6 and sometimes it goes to 5. The biology in the tanks seems to create these differences between tanks. I have monitored pH for many years, and it is consistent and stable at these levels. My fish are not being adversely affected, there is zero ammonia and nitrite, so obviously this works. I have all soft water fish; I would raise the GH and KH (naturally, using calcium and magnesium rock/gravel) for livebearers, etc., if I had them, as I did years ago when I used dolomite.

The fluctuation in whitecloud's tank is as Dawn noted being caused by something. It is not "normal" as my experiences prove. That has to be resolved. Amethyst123, I don't know the facts of your situation.

Byron.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Ok, sorry for the delay but I think I have found the info I was looking for. The MSDS sheet for Prime does not contain the information it "should" with a list of active ingredients, however, it does identify the ingredients as "aqueous solution of complexed hydrosulfite salts". What I was looking for was the presence of hydrogen sulfide, which can, as was suggested, turn nitrite back into ammonia. 

Overall, eliminating the use of Prime and a series of water changes to dilute it, should be enough to help the tank complete the cycle. I think using start right was a good idea and would suggest you continue using just the start right. Be careful not to over dose the water conditioner. This can cause a rapid drop in pH... which is what we have already seen in your situation but don't know yet for sure what has caused it. I am still suspecting that the Prime had something to do with it, in which case, it is simply a matter of time and lots of small water changes to dilute the Prime completely.

When doing the water changes, keep them small due to the difference in pH from tap to tank. 10% each day is the safest way to go until we either figure out the cause and eliminate it, or until pH in the tank matches that of the tap due to the water changes and dilution of the Prime.

Can you tell us what is in the tank for decor, especially any pieces of wood? What is in the filter for media? I am looking for things that may affect the pH, buffering capacity, and/or overall water chemistry. 7.6 to 6.4 is a drastic jump and can cause harm to the fish. There is something causing it which needs to be resolved. Not only is the drastic change dangerous, but there may be other chemical changes happening that we are thus far not aware of... which can lead to a list of problems as things progress. Its difficult to treat a problem safely if we don't know the cause, especially when dealing with chemicals/chemical reactions.


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## whitecloud34 (Feb 22, 2011)

bettababy said:


> Ok, sorry for the delay but I think I have found the info I was looking for. The MSDS sheet for Prime does not contain the information it "should" with a list of active ingredients, however, it does identify the ingredients as "aqueous solution of complexed hydrosulfite salts". What I was looking for was the presence of hydrogen sulfide, which can, as was suggested, turn nitrite back into ammonia.
> 
> Overall, eliminating the use of Prime and a series of water changes to dilute it, should be enough to help the tank complete the cycle. I think using start right was a good idea and would suggest you continue using just the start right. Be careful not to over dose the water conditioner. This can cause a rapid drop in pH... which is what we have already seen in your situation but don't know yet for sure what has caused it. I am still suspecting that the Prime had something to do with it, in which case, it is simply a matter of time and lots of small water changes to dilute the Prime completely.
> 
> ...


I just have regular black gravel from Petco, a little castle and some plastic plants. The filter is an Aqueon and it has just a single carbon catridge, that's all.

The only thing that will be difficult about getting the pH back up is the ammonia in our tap water and without Prime I'm afraid my fish will die (about 1 ppm of ammonia present in tap). We don't really have the time or money at the moment to invest in filtration for tap water or to buy bottled water. That's why I'm a little reluctant to go above 7.0 with pH because I don't want the fish to die from ammonia poisoning. I had a fish tank years ago (before our city converted to chloromine) and I always easily kept the pH at 6.8 and my fish did well so that's sort of the "safe" pH I'd really like to achieve. I did a water change yesterday afternoon like maybe 20% and the pH lifted a little to 6.4 and I checked it tonight and it's still 6.4 so if I could tweak the volume and number of water changes a little to get it to 6.8 and then monitor to keep it that way, I'd be very happy. I'm just not sure if this is an okay way to do things.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

I understand your dilemma, however, without knowing why the pH is dropping so far in the tank, there is no way to keep it stable. Just as fast as it has gone down it also then has the ability to go back up again... which means not only concern for ammonia toxicity, but also pH shock, and a number of other things. 

If we knew what was causing the pH drop, then there may be a possibility of stabilizing it, but 6.4 - 6.8 is a bit low for goldfish on a long term basis. I am still working on this, so please be assured you are not alone. I do have some time constraints with the holiday weekend here, but I will be sure to check in as much as I can over the weekend. If I come up with more ideas or solutions for you I will be sure to post them.

Do you have the ability to check GH and KH in your tap water as well as your tank water? I am concerned with your tank water's buffering capacity, but knowing both tap and tank readings will also give us the info we need to help narrow down potential causes of the change in pH. In the mean time, keep the water changes small... no more than 10% at a time. If, as I fear, the buffering capacity of your water is even part of the issue, large water changes could cause deadly swings in pH while we are still trying to sort this out and get it fixed. In this case, 20 - 25% would be considered a large change because of the difference in pH from tank to tap. 

The smaller water changes will also limit the amount of ammonia from the tap water going into the tank at any given time, which also will help. 

If we can get your tank fully cycled and stable in that regard, it is possible, at least for a period of time (until the fish start to grow in leaps and bounds) that the bacteria culture in the tank can handle the additional ammonia in the tap water, thus breaking it down quickly enough to avoid harming the fish.

Please keep us posted of any changes along the way.


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## whitecloud34 (Feb 22, 2011)

bettababy said:


> I understand your dilemma, however, without knowing why the pH is dropping so far in the tank, there is no way to keep it stable. Just as fast as it has gone down it also then has the ability to go back up again... which means not only concern for ammonia toxicity, but also pH shock, and a number of other things.
> 
> If we knew what was causing the pH drop, then there may be a possibility of stabilizing it, but 6.4 - 6.8 is a bit low for goldfish on a long term basis. I am still working on this, so please be assured you are not alone. I do have some time constraints with the holiday weekend here, but I will be sure to check in as much as I can over the weekend. If I come up with more ideas or solutions for you I will be sure to post them.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for your help. I don't remember the exact readings but I posted them at some time or another on a different thread and it turns out our water is very soft and Byron said it's similar to his tank which also tends to go to acidic. I will keep up with the smaller water changes. After the 20% water change I did yesterday I tested the ammonia today and there was absolutely no change to it :-( still 2.0 ppm. Next time I will do a smaller water change like you said.


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## whitecloud34 (Feb 22, 2011)

Quick update: Still no improvement. For a while I was able to keep the pH around 6.8 through daily water changes. I've been doing 10% water changes. Yesterday I did a 20% water change last evening maybe around 4:00 pm and the pH got to* 7.0* and this morning it was already at* 6.6*! Just to show how quickly it gets acidic.:-( 

I've read about putting crushed coral in a nylon sock inside the filter. Clearly there is something crazy going on with my tank and I am wondering, would a little crushed coral help? I'm about ready to just give up because this is all getting to be too much. I'm really hoping I can try crushed coral and I'm looking at this as the final option. I don't know what else to do.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

whitecloud34 said:


> Quick update: Still no improvement. For a while I was able to keep the pH around 6.8 through daily water changes. I've been doing 10% water changes. Yesterday I did a 20% water change last evening maybe around 4:00 pm and the pH got to* 7.0* and this morning it was already at* 6.6*! Just to show how quickly it gets acidic.:-(
> 
> I've read about putting crushed coral in a nylon sock inside the filter. Clearly there is something crazy going on with my tank and I am wondering, would a little crushed coral help? I'm about ready to just give up because this is all getting to be too much. I'm really hoping I can try crushed coral and I'm looking at this as the final option. I don't know what else to do.


No on the buffering. Dawn is helping you with this, please bear with her. This quick a pH drop is not natural, whatever is causing it has to be found. Adding buffering agents, even calcareous rock or coral, might cause a rapid swing and be worse.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Sorry it takes me so long to get back sometimes, it can't be helped. Unfortunately, I have to ask more questions...
Do you have a quarantine tank available? 
Can you do me a favor and take a cup of your tank water, as close in temp as you use to put into your tank during water changes, test the pH and then let it sit out overnight, untouched by anything fish related, and then test pH again after 24 hrs? Bring those readings here. I am trying to determine if there is a buffering problem in your tap water (unlikely but not impossible) or if the problem is in the tank specifically.

I agree with Byron on the crushed coral... all you would be doing is masking a problem that would likely worsen because it hasn't been resolved. Crushed coral, at this point, is not your answer. Also, please remember that I still suspect the problem was the Prime water conditioner and it is going to take time to remove it all from your tank water, even with daily water changes. 

Each change dilutes it, but it is still in there and likely still at a somewhat high level. Seeing that your jump went from the 6.4 it started with to 6.8 now, that tells me you are making progress. Continue as you have been with the small daily water changes and no Prime. Continue tracking the pH shifts and reporting them here as things change in either direction. This is difficult because we are doing this via internet, I don't have the ability to see anything in person, test anything in person, etc. I am relying on you to keep us informed, and sometimes the best thing anyone can do is be patient and diligent. 

I'm also very sorry for your frustration, but things like this happen. When you work with an aquatic situation in any form you have an ever changing environment. There was a time when people thought that fish keeping was as simple as dropping a fish into water and watch it swim. Over the years people have learned a lot, including that fish keeping, when done right, is a little more complicated than first thought. 

Over those yrs many others have taken advantage of the still not widespread knowledge about this hobby and they create products to "help" us, though some of us are not actually helped by them. Buffering chemicals fall into that category. In all my 20+ yrs of working in this industry, keeping my own at home, etc, I have seen very few cases that actually required the use of buffering chemicals.... and too many cases where buffering chemicals/methods wiped out entire tanks of otherwise healthy fish, simply because the fish keeper was not patient enough to sort out the cause of their problems... 

Quick fixes, in fish keeping, are never the solution. Hang in there, please. Don't give up. Once we figure this out you will be on your way to enjoying the fish because the "work" part will be greatly reduced, as will the stress of the problems you face at present. If nothing else, at least consider this a good crash course in water chemistry, something every fish keeper should have anyways. Everyone's tap water is different. Every tank is different. You are doing all you can right now, and should be proud of yourself that you care enough to sort this out and not impatient enough to allow the fish to suffer needlessly. There is an end... we will get there, and I promise to stick with you until this is resolved. The best is yet to come!

I will watch for those pH results from the cup of tap water and we will continue from there.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

I just had another thought... what filter media is in your filter? Has any of it been changed since stopping the Prime? If not, its time to do so. Because you still have no nitrate I would not worry about depleting the bacteria culture at this point. There will be plenty of bacteria in the tank itself, in other areas of the filter, on the glass, decor, etc. for it to be safe now to change the media.


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## whitecloud34 (Feb 22, 2011)

bettababy said:


> Sorry it takes me so long to get back sometimes, it can't be helped. Unfortunately, I have to ask more questions...
> Do you have a quarantine tank available?
> Can you do me a favor and take a cup of your tank water, as close in temp as you use to put into your tank during water changes, test the pH and then let it sit out overnight, untouched by anything fish related, and then test pH again after 24 hrs? Bring those readings here. I am trying to determine if there is a buffering problem in your tap water (unlikely but not impossible) or if the problem is in the tank specifically.
> 
> ...


Thank you  I will get a cup of aquarium water in a minute and test it, then let it sit overnight and test it again tomorrow and post the results. I'm a little excited to see what happens actually. I definitely don't want to give up, I love having my aquarium again. I just wish I could give my fish the ultimate healthy environment and cycle as easily as everyone else on here. But you're right: everyone has different tap water, different tanks, etc. and I just have to work with what I have.

As for the filter catridge, no I have not changed it since I set the tank up (8 weeks ago?) I was always afraid of changing it in fear of wiping out the bacteria because it's the only media I have in there (no sponges) but yes like you said, there are still no nitrates so it won't matter. I probably won't be able to get a new catridge until the weekend and I hope to pick up some sort of sponge from another brand to slip in behind it for the future so I won't wipe everything out when I change the catridge again. But I will continue with the small water changes and keep monitoring the pH before and after. I was just so upset when I saw this morning how the pH jumped from 7.0 to 6.6 overnight. 

I don't have a quarantine tank available unfortunately. I have the tank on top of my beareau in my bedroom and it is very small in there and there's no room to set up another tank.

Now that I think of it, I think the whole thing with the pH and losing nitrites was around the time I began using Prime (just after I discovered there was nearly 1.0 ppm ammonia in the tap water and freaked out). But my fish have survived all along. I give them credit, they are hanging in there!

Thank you again for your help, I really appreciate it :-D I will post results tomorrow...


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## whitecloud34 (Feb 22, 2011)

Hi Dawn, 

pH Results:

Straight from the tank readings:
-Tuesday: 6.8
-Today: almost 6.4

Cup of tank water, left out overnight:
-Tuesday: 6.8
-Today: 6.8

Treated tap water straight from faucet, left out overnight:
-Tuesday: 7.6
-Today: 7.6

Ok so there is something going on in the tank then. I'm not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing!


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## whitecloud34 (Feb 22, 2011)

Ok, new update: so now that I know there is something wrong going inside the tank and it isn't the tap water itself, I've taken a handful of gravel and put it in a cup and will let it sit overnight and I'll see if the pH drops in there. I also took out the castle and have it sitting in water overnight so Iwill test that also. I'm really hoping it's the castle because that'd be the easier culprit, but I doubt it!:shock: I forgot-- I do have another filter that came with the tank set up and I've never used it and it has two different sets of catridges in it. I don't know what kind it is though; it has no name on it and it came with the tank setup and its box was just a cardboard box without anything written or pictured on it so that's why I chose to purchase my Aqueon filter. But if the pH doesn't drop in any of my new experiments I will try switching filters. I don't know if a filter is capable of crashing my pH though.

Just did a 15% water change and the pH is currently 7.0. Will post results tomorrow.


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## whitecloud34 (Feb 22, 2011)

Well I discovered the problem! :-D It's the gravel. I left a handful of the gravel in a cup overnight in 7.0 pH and this morning it was about 6.6. I tested the water the castle was kept in and it was fine. I went on Google and did a search and discovered someone else had my same problem with pH constantly crashing and they had the same exact gravel I had: black coated gravel from Petco. I am going to scoop it all out with a strainer today and do a 20% water change and hopefully the problem will go away. Hopefully the tank won't get too messy without gravel for a while as it will be a little time before I can get some new gravel. This time I am getting the natural un-coated kind. Hopefully there won't be a problem with it. I will post in a few days my pH results and I'm really hoping things will get better with my tank!


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## Electric (Apr 8, 2011)

I had a similar pH problem with blue coated gravel many years ago. Once I replaced it with uncoated gravel, things stabilized. Glad you found the source of the problem.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Sorry I was away for a few days, it couldn't be helped. I'm pleased to see that you discovered what was crashing the pH. Do you know the name brand of the gravel that was the culprit? It is important that the company making/producing this stuff knows that it is causing problems.... and its even more important to let others know what it is so that they can avoid it.


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## whitecloud34 (Feb 22, 2011)

bettababy said:


> Sorry I was away for a few days, it couldn't be helped. I'm pleased to see that you discovered what was crashing the pH. Do you know the name brand of the gravel that was the culprit? It is important that the company making/producing this stuff knows that it is causing problems.... and its even more important to let others know what it is so that they can avoid it.


It was Petco's brand.Black coated gravel. It even says on the bag, "Will not alter water chemistry." Thank you for all your help! I didn't even consider leaving aquarium water out in a cup overnight. Thanks again Dawn.


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