# 187 Gallon Help



## fishfreak2009

So I'm very frustrated with my 187 gallon saltwater tank. I've been fighting it for years to get my animals to live and when everything starts to go right something bad happens and most the animals die. It currently has 250 lbs. of live rock, a G200 protein skimmer, and a 30 gallon refugium containing Caulerpa racemosa and 10 lbs. of live rock. My nitrate is 2.5, and my ammonia and nitrite are 0. PH is at 8.3, temp is 78 degrees F, and there are 2 of the giant Koralia pumps on the wall. The tank currently contains the following organisms:
1 Heniochus acuminatus (eats great and looks good for about a month now)
1 Chaetodon madagaskariensis (same as previous)
1 Centropyge bicolor (had for about a year and it's very hardy; eats flake)
4 Chromis viridis (got 6 of them 3 days ago, 2 died the first night, the others now have ich:-()
2 Amphiprion percula (Healthy for over a year now)
1 Sphaeramia nematoptera (healthy for 2 years now; toughest fish I've ever owned)
1 Gramma loreto (Bought with the chromis, but looks healthy)
1 Pterosynchiropus splendidus (Bought with the chromis, but looks good so far; eats blackworms!:-D)
1 Diadema setosum (a nitrate spike made him lose his spines, so the butterflies picked at him. Now he's in a floating container with some grape caulerpa so they can't get to him until his spines grow back)
Caulerpa prolifera (I have large patches of it growing on my 200 lbs. of live sand and on an area of the Live rock.

3 days ago I bought the chromis, the mandarin, and the gramma, along with 2 cleaner shrimp. The shrimp died in hours. I found ine dead, and the other I found being carried across the basement by a 2 inch zebra striped crab. The shrimp was ripped in half. I've never seen the crab before, but I figure it was probably in the Live rock. I stepped in him and fed him to my FW stingray as revenge, but the $44 I spent on the shrimp was gone within hours. Set a bottle trap and caught some baby brittle stars and bristle worms, but thats about it. 

So I know this is getting long but I want in the tank eventually (it includes what I already have). I know anthias are more difficult fish to keep, especially the purple queen, but I think I'm up to the challenge and the store by me has some that are feeding greedily for sale.

1 Bicolor Angelfish (Centropyge bicolor)*
3 Purple Queen Anthias (Pseudanthias tuka) 
3 Dispar Anthias (Pseudanthias dispar) 
3 Bartlett’s Anthias (Pseudanthias bartlettorum)
1 Borbonius Anthias (Odontanthias borbonius)
1 Royal Gramma Basslet (Gramma loreto)* 
1 Pearl Scale Butterflyfish (Chaetodon xanthurus)*
1 Heniochus (Heniochus acuminatus)*
1 PJ Cardinalfish (Sphaeramia nematoptera)*
9 Green Chromis (Chromis viridis)****
2 Percula Clownfish (Amphiprion percula)**
1 Diamond Sleeper Goby (Valenciennea puellaris)
1 Mandarinfish (Synchiropus splendidus)*
1 Yellow Tang (Zebrasoma flavescens)
1 Hippo Tang (Paracanthus hepatus)

1 Long Spined Urchin (Diadema setosum)*
5 Cleaner Shrimp (Lysmata amboinensis)
1 Blood Red Fire Shrimp (Lysmata debelius)
N.A. Common Caulerpa (Caulerpa prolifera)*
70 Astraea Snail (Astraea tectum)
1 Fighting Conch (Strombus spp.)


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## Pasfur

Ok, we can fix this situation. No doubt about it. And i'm willing to walk through this process every day with you for the next year if necessary. But before we get started I need to ask you a question. This is important, so let me tell you why. 

I've been doing these internet forums since 1992, when you had to "telnet" from one intranet to another to establish a chat connection. In these 17 or so years, about every 2 or 3 months one of these posts comes along. The large majority of these threads become a total waste of time, because the person who asks the question is not open to change. From looking at your list of freshwater aquariums, I am willing to be you are quite the opposite and totally open to taking on new information and applying it where needed. Nobody becomes successful in a wide variety of freshwater systems without having patience, which is what you will need to follow this through successfully.

I have to warn you up front, some of the things I will have to say on this thread you will find frustrating. But we CAN fix this and WILL fix this if you are ready to take this on. So, that being said, are you honestly interested in having a successful marine system, and willing to make necessary changes to be successful?


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## fishfreak2009

I am willing to, and thought I'd add as a side note that today I bought 6 more green chromis, so now I have 10 of them. It's over what I had planned for, but I'll be plumbing the 25 gallon into this tank's sump and filling it with caulerpa, maybesome frags and some feather duster worms, so that should increase the gallonage. Just have to get dad to buy me the pumps... Also, I am not putting the Borbonius anthias in my tank, mainly because of the price... Does this sound like a better list?

1 Bicolor Angelfish (Centropyge bicolor)* 
3 Dispar Anthias (Pseudanthias dispar) 
5 Bartlett’s Anthias (Pseudanthias bartlettorum)
1 Royal Gramma Basslet (Gramma loreto)* 
1 Madagascan Pearl Scale Butterflyfish (Chaetodon madagaskariensis)*
1 Heniochus (Heniochus acuminatus)*
5 PJ Cardinalfish (Sphaeramia nematoptera)*
10 Green Chromis (Chromis viridis)**********
2 Percula Clownfish (Amphiprion percula)**
1 Diamond Sleeper Goby (Valenciennea puellaris)
1 Mandarinfish (Pterosynchiropus splendidus)*
5 Yellow Tang (Zebrasoma flavescens)
1 Hippo Tang (Paracanthus hepatus)

1 Long Spined Urchin (Diadema setosum)*
5 Cleaner Shrimp (Lysmata amboinensis)
1 Blood Red Fire Shrimp (Lysmata debelius)
N.A. Common Caulerpa (Caulerpa prolifera)*
70 Astraea Snail (Astraea tectum)
1 Fighting Conch (Strombus spp.)


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## Pasfur

Great, lets get started.

After having spent the better part of the last 20 years having these types of conversations on a weekly basis, there are a few common features that tend to occur on systems that are not having consistent success. That being said, let me start with a few observations, just to get some clarification.

First, I notice that you do not give test results for Alkalinity and Calcium. I personally consider these 2 tests to be the most important tests you will utilize. Interestingly enough, the impact of alkalinity and calcium neglect tends to occur slowly, with many months of success often preceding problems. I have posted some more detailed thoughts on alkalinity & calcium here: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...calcium-testing-important-every-marine-33079/

I also notice that you appear to be purchasing fish and then adding them directly into your display, skipping a quarantine period. Is this correct? I can not emphasis enough how important it is to isolate all new fish for 3 to 4 weeks prior to adding them to your display. These fish arrive at the LFS extremely stress from an overwhelming experience (capture, handling, and shipment). They need isolation time to regain their health, boost their immunity, and adjust to captive feeding and routine care. To skip this step on a large aquarium is especially risky, due to the extreme amount of live stock already in the display. I personally use a 38 gallon Q tank, and I would suggest you us a 20 gallon tank or larger for this purpose as well.

I also notice that your fish list is not by any means a beginners list. Your list is more like the list of a very experienced marine fishkeeper, someone who has had years of success. You are not a beginner, obviously, but it is still surprising that you would be attempting species such as the BiColor Angel, Anthias, Heniochus, Pearscale Butterfly, and Mandarine Goby. I bring this up because I wonder who is guiding you on these fish selections. Do you have somebody at an LFS that you are leaning on? Perhaps they aren't really up to task for this level of trust, if you know what I mean. On the other hand, if you are making these decisions personally, then I'd tell you to slow down and gain some experience first. If nothing else, your odds of success will greatly increase if the fish you select to keep in your tank have a reputation of being less difficult to keep.

Lets stop there and gather some feedback. Plus, my wife is calling....


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## fishfreak2009

I actually just took my water to 2 different LFS, and they told me that all my levels were perfect (Calcium was at 420, and alkalinity was at 8). The chromis had a mass-die off the first night and now I'm down to 4 (2 old and 2 new). I found another crab in the rocks today after taking out every rock and toothpicking every hole, but I killed it and found no more of them. As for my mandarinfish it is extremely fat, living off the extremely large population of copepods that breed in the refugium and in the Caulerpa growing throughout the tank. The Heniochus actually comes to the top and eats out of my hand, and is not afraid to try and clean my hand when I clean the tank. I did a 60 percent water change today, as well as pruning the grape caulerpa in the sump. I will admit that I have never had much luck with butterflies, however the madagascan pearlscale seems to be one of the hardiest fish I have ever come across.it is very fat and greedily eats all foods including color pellets and flakes. As for the Bartlett's Anthias, in the new Marine Fish and Reef USA they state that they are hardy fish as long as they have frequent feedings (I give 3+ feedings a day). I actually had a quarantine set up, but I changed it to freshwater for my 90 gallon (afraid of introducing diseases with the FW Ray). As soon as the green terror (who is currently in there for behavior issues) has his mini pond resealed I will reconvert it back to saltwater. I am hoping to get some biological cleaners for the tank so I made a new stocking list. Please point out any problems. I would normally only buy 1 Klein;s Butterflyfish, but right now they have a mated pair at the LFS.


1 Bicolor Angelfish (Centropyge bicolor)* 
5 Bartlett’s Anthias (Pseudanthias bartlettorum)
11 Talbot’s Damselfish (Chrysiptera talboti)
1 Royal Gramma Basslet (Gramma loreto)* 
1 Madagascan Pearl Scale Butterflyfish (Chaetodon madagaskariensis)*
1 Heniochus (Heniochus acuminatus)*
2 Klein's Butterflyfish (Chaetodon kleini)
4 PJ Cardinalfish (Sphaeramia nematoptera)*
4 Green Chromis (Chromis viridis)****
2 Percula Clownfish (Amphiprion percula)**
1 Diamond Sleeper Goby (Valenciennea puellaris)
1 Mandarinfish (Pterosynchiropus splendidus)*
5 Yellow Tang (Zebrasoma flavescens)
1 Hippo Tang (Paracanthus hepatus)

N.A. Common Caulerpa (Caulerpa prolifera)*
5 Common Cleaner Shrimp (Lysmata amboinensis)
70 Astraea Snail (Astraea tectum)
1 Fighting Conch (Strombus spp.)


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## fishfreak2009

Also, do you know if a stars and stripes puffer would be a good addition to this tank? I know that I couldn't add the shrimps and I would move the urchin to my sump, but would it go after the Heni's fns or the smaller fish? They have a 2 incher for $20 at the LFS right now. He's really tempting. I would not buy the Kleins Butterflyfish pair if I bought this fish.


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## mrdemin

I'd suggest you stop adding livestock until you get your problem worked out.


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## Pasfur

mrdemin said:


> I'd suggest you stop adding livestock until you get your problem worked out.


I agree. Whenever i have any issues I put all new livestock purchases on hold for a good 30 days. This hobby responds well to conservative decision making, which should always dominate your decision.

However, to answer the question, your tank is not large enough for a Stars & Stripes Pufferfish. I have a 180 and would love this fish, but my tank just isn't big enough. The pair of Kleins Butterflyfish would be awesome for you. They have a great reputation in the hobby. I have one in my 180 and it has been very hardy and holds its own very well with the other more "aggressive" fish in the tank. 

That being said, you are not ready for fish. Something is causing problems in your tank and you need to slow down. In fact, you need to STOP and wait. 

Can you post some pictures of the tank?


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## fishfreak2009

I'll try to post pics. I just got back from the ski hill, and when I looked in the tank another chromis was dead along with the madagascan pearlscale!  I really hoped that big water change would solve my problems. I just tested water and pH is 8.3, Nitrate is less than 10, ammonia is 0, and nitrite is 0. I do not have a test kit for phosphates though. I am going to go take some pics right now.


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## fishfreak2009

187 gallon, some tankmates and the stingray in my other tank for good measure.


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## fishfreak2009

Would it help if I told you that the specific gravity of the tank was lowered to 1.015 after I added the chromis because 2 showed signs of ich, but I brought it back up to 1.023 yesterday with the water change. Would this have killed the chromis and butterflyfish?


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## Pasfur

You're tank is beautiful. I really enjoy the old fashioned look of artificial corals blended in with the live rock.

Question: Is that silica sand? (swimming pool filter sand)

Lets go back a minute to the fish selection conversation. I think you misunderstood my point. I am not questioning at all the health of YOUR fish. I am simply saying that this hobby does not come easy. Experience is gained very slowly, and the ability to recognize problems BEFORE they occur only comes with years of practice. There are things that someone with a lot of experience will recognize in a fish that simply can not be learned from book knowledge. For this reason, I would suggest you begin to focus your fish selections on easier to keep fish. Increase your chance of success as you grow experience in the marine side of the hobby.

For example, the Centropyge angelfish are generally a very easy group of fish to keep. The Coral Beauty, Eibli, Flame, African Dwarf, and Vroliki are especially sturdy fish. On the other hand, there are species within the genus that are very sensitive. These include the BiColor, Lemon Peel, and Keyhole. You could have chosen an easy species, but instead were guided towards a very difficult fish in the BiColor.

These small decisions make huge impacts long term, and be be very costly to the wallet. By the way, one of the things you learn in time is that water changes are very stressful to marine livestock. A 60% water change in a tank with a Butterfly species was almost certain to result in problems. These are the types of things we need to discuss.

At this point, lets look closely at the tank parameters, your additives, and generally maintenance routine. Post as much information as you can about the basic routine you have for caring for the tank.


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## Pasfur

fishfreak2009 said:


> Would it help if I told you that the specific gravity of the tank was lowered to 1.015 after I added the chromis because 2 showed signs of ich, but I brought it back up to 1.023 yesterday with the water change. Would this have killed the chromis and butterflyfish?


Large decreases in specific gravity are generally harmless. Large increases are extremely stressful and can kill fish in short periods of time. An increase from 1.015 to 1.023 could kill a fish, yes.


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## fishfreak2009

The stingray's tank is silica sand, but the saltwater is live sand and crushed coral mixed (to create an excellent building substance for the diamond sleeper goby's burrow. I went downstairs this morning and my Heniochus has ich! So do the chromis. I gave them a freshwater/ malachite green dip for 5 minutes, then reintroduced them to the main tank. My dad is taking me to the store later to go pick up a cleaner shrimp and some freshwater fish (I got $125 worth of visa giftcards for christmas). I will also mention that about a month ago I had a horrible cyanobacteria outbreak, but I killed it within 2 days with the new cyanobacteria destroyer product (don't remember the name). After using it I did a large water change, but I was wondering if I should add a filter sock filled with carbon to my sump.


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## Pasfur

WARNING: the tone of this post is not warm n fuzzy. I can only ask you to trust me that I have your best interest at heart. So, be ready for some criticism. 

You are moving so fast. It feels like you aren't exactly sure why you are doing the things you are doing, but you have heard a lot of different ideas and are willing to try anything. I can't get over how all over the place you are with this tank. You have to slow down or you will not create a successful tank.

There are 3 topics in this last post. The first is ich. Why did you do a freshwater dip using malachite green? Seriously. Think about the question. WHY? What were you trying to accomplish? Do you have a specific plan of action that is proven to treat ich successfully, or are you just tying something, ANYTHING, in an effort to hope that the problem goes away. I can tell you that doing a freshwater dip and placing the same fish back into the display does nothing other than cause stress to the fish and weaken its immunity system further. Ich is not successfully treated in this manor. The life cycle of this parasite will simply represent itself within a couple of days, if not sooner. Ich treatment is a complicated topic, and you need a very specific strategy to cope with this infection. 

The next topic is the cyno outbreak. Again, you reacted to the problem with chemicals, as opposed to finding the cause of the outbreak and eliminating the underlying problems. The cyno went away, but unless you made other changes you can be assured the cyno will return. It is also likely that the problems associated with the outbreak will manifest themselves in different ways, such as rising Nitrates and phosphates, and difficulty in controlling alkalinity and pH levels.

Finally, you are considering adding a filter sock. Again, this is an action step. What is the underlying change in the environment that you are trying to achieve? Adding a filter sock will trap free floating debris and organic waste. It will not remove it from the water flow. It will simply give the organics a place to bond and break down into nitrate. In other words, adding a filter sock will increase the odds of a future cyno outbreak.

I am being critical at this point to a degree, I realize this. I am not trying to be rude at all. But in order to help you, I need you to open yourself up to a much greater level of thinking. The actions you are taking are very typical of the normal marine hobbyist, and unfortunately in this hobby "normal" in not "successful".

This ich situation is a huge concern. It will take the next 90 days at minimum to solve this problem and you need to stop adding any new livestock during this time. To resolve this issue we need to know exactly what livestock you have today, and what empty aquariums and other unused filtration you might have available.


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## fishfreak2009

I just got back from the ski hill and found out my parents bought a red pearlscale butterfly and added it to my tank:shock: ! They also bought 25 astraea snails and a cleaner shrimp. I had the water tested and all the levels are the same as before. The filter sock was only a place to put carbon, I have not added it yet. When I called the LFS they told me that I should give the fish a dip in freshwater/malachite green. Hopefully they are not too stressed. The Heni still comes right up and eats from my hands so I hope that's a good sign. The new animals all look good at least, not showing any signs of disease and moving around the tank. I also would like to know if it would be a good idea to move my UV sterilizer off of the 90 gallon and on to this tank to help kill off the larval stage. I currently have no empty aquariums, but I will in another day, because I will be moving my green terror into his pond. I will have 1 empty 10 gallon after this so I will use this as my saltwater quarantine (unless I can convince mom and dad into a 17th, 20 gallon). I had tried everything to get rid of my cyno outbreak for a long time, but it kept coming back. When I took the water in I had a very high phosphate level and this is not the tank's fault (the tap water has very high phosphates). Also, this is when I added the caulerpa prolifera to the main tank (I already had the grape caulerpa in the sump). How should I lower the phosphates? Algone Pads? Another Refugium? My dad and I are looking for a way to attach a 2nd one underneath the main tank. This is the current inhabitants as of about an hour ago:
1 Chaetodon paucifasciatus
1 Heniochus acuminatus
3 Chromis viridis
1 Pterosynchiropus splendidus
1 Gramma loreto
2 Amphiprion percula
1 Centropyge bicolor
1 Sphaeramia nematoptera
1 Diadema setosum
1 Lysmata amboinensis
25 Astraea tectum


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## Pasfur

These situations are impossible for me to help. I need to talk to the decision maker, and it appears your parents are calling the shots. Sorry man, but unless your parents are willing to educate themselves on this situation, then you are out of luck. Adding fish to a tank with ich tells me that they do not have much concern about the health of their animals.


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## bettababy

I think Pasfur has given some wonderful advice here so far, but I am wondering why it is being ignored? 

I noticed one thing mentioned that hasn't been commented on yet, and I feel it important to add. It was said that the substrate is a live sand crushed coral mix, and it was mixed to accommodate a diamond sand sifting goby? Crushed coral will cut up the gills and mouth of a sand sifting goby, and these types of fish should have a sand only substrate. 

Pasfur's request for your parents to contribute to these posts was a good one, is there any way to make that happen? I am very concerned about the number of fish that are being killed in this situation, and there seems to be little concern for the well being of any of these animals as long as they all eat well. There is more to keeping an aquarium and its animals healthy than eating good, and that is apparent with the number of deaths you are experiencing. 

I beg of you and your parents, please do NOT buy any more fish for this tank. Work on fixing the existing problems, which appear to be many, and saving the fish currently in the tank. Your stocking list is unrealistic to say the least. I don't say this to be mean, just to emphasize what Pasfur has already tried to point out to you. 

If you are not willing to do right by the animals I am afraid you are not going to find much help from anyone, and I don't mean just here at the forum. The LFS is going to see you as a money machine, nothing more... gullable and willing to spend spend spend at the expense of the lives of innocent animals. Their "advice" is simply going to empty your parents bank account and leave you with a constant mess in your tank. Other online forums and groups, especially the marine focused places are going to also find issues with the lack of concern for the death rate in your tank and lack of concern on your part in dealing with it.

Pasfur offered you the best advice anyone could have. Stop adding animals. Fix the existing problems and gain some experience in doing so, then move forward slowly later. The one thing he was nice enough to not say, I'm going to take the liberty to say myself... your other option is to take these fish all back to the store and turn that tank into a freshwater tank you can handle. Call it a trial/failure attempt at the marine hobby that you are not ready for yet, cut your current losses, and maybe try again at another time after you have done the research, studying, planning, and preparation needed to keep a successful marine tank. There is no shame in that. This sounds like it has become overwhelming and you're maybe just not ready for it yet. The marine world is very different from the freshwater world, and if you are not open to the way it works in the marine world, you cannot achieve success.

I'm sorry if I was blunt, I am not trying to be unkind or unfriendly, just honest. In order for anyone to help you, then you first must gain your parents cooperation and then listen to the things being told to you. Otherwise, everyone is just wasting their time.


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## fishfreak2009

So after 2 more chromis died last night my parents decided to listen to me. They have agreed not to buy anymore fish. Hopefully now they will keep their promise. I will be moving the green terror tonight so that way I will have a quarantine aquarium. I am not going to give up on this aquarium. I will keep trying until I finally get it right.


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## fishfreak2009

So my parents told me that they are buying me a U.V. Sterilizer big enough for the tank and anything else that will help cure the ich. I would like to ask you though if you think a garlic supplement would help cure the ich. I saw it on another thread here. What do you think? Will that help cure it? The quarantine tank will soon be up and running by the way. Apparently the silicone I used didn't work right and is still sticky, even though it's supposed to cure in 24 hours time. :roll:
By the way, in one of your earlier posts I saw that you called the corals "artificial". They are actually real coral skeletons that came with the tank when I bought it. Also I should add that the last chromis died. All of them developed bloody patches on their sides before dying. No other fish I have ever kept has got these patches except the chromis (from multiple batches and at different times).


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## Kelso

First off you don't need to go and buy all that stuff! Tell your parent too hold off. I know nothing about salt water, but I know a thing or two about pet keeping in general. I've been reading this and you need to listen to Pasfur and Bettababy...I haven't been here long, but I know these two know their stuff. Stop buying your way through this disaster! You need to figure out what's wrong before you do anything else! You need to stand back and look at everything in your tank. See what you have at your disposal and what can work with. What fish are seemingly in good shape? If you can't see anything visible for the time being, good. Next you need to get to the nitty gritty...and that's doing anything and everything Pasfur tells you. Stop acting and listen. Every post you've typed so far as you "doing" something...something that Pasfur never mentioned. Stop that now. Start from the basics, make sure you are doing the "normal" things right. Water params, w/c, even compailbilty among fishes. I don't know much about saltwater, but are you sure every fish you have is compatible? It's gonna take time, but for now DONT DO ANYTHING. When I was having problems with my freshwater tanks I found out the best tool is time...stop acting and observe. Figure out your root cause...and for me doing nothing has even saved me a couple of times. I gave my tank time and everything went back to balance. So for now...please stop doing and start listening...


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## Pasfur

Kelso, words of wisdom. Whenever I see a problem, my immediate reaction is to do nothing... wait... give it time. I can't tell you how many times over the years i've had a fish with a spot, rash, or discoloration. It happens. Fish get sick and fight off infections. It is just part of keeping living animals. Adding medications is very often the exact wrong thing to do, especially given that very few of us have the knowledge or tools available to correctly diagnose any disease.

I think buying a UV Sterilizer and starting a garlic enhanced diet is a perfect idea. This is EXACTLY what I normally recommend to people as a preventative measure and to boost a fish's immunity. 

"Artificial" coral and "dead" coral skeletons are the same thing. Just terms left over from the 1980's and early 90's when these decorations were commonly used, before live rock was available and affordable.


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## fishfreak2009

I will hopefully be going today to get the U.V. Sterilizer and the garlic supplement for the food. I have to pick up some other stuff anyways (Blackworms for the ray, nightcrawlers for the BPs, mysis shrimp, and bloodworms). The symptoms are definitely marine ich, and I have waited before doing anything else. All my fish are 100% compatible and and all my levels are in the ideal ranges. I will say that I had the tank looking very nice before with 3 Heniochus, a desjardin's sailfin tang, a yellow tang, a diamond sleeper, a racoon butterfly, 9 green chromis, 5 blue chromis, a black cap gramma, 3 Lubbock's fairy wrasse, a yellowtailed blue damsel, a pair of twinspot hogfish, my 2 clownfish and my PJ cardinl. I accidentally bleached the tank and everything died except the clowns and the cardinal. This is what is currently in the tank:
1 Bicolor Angel
1 Heniochus (with definite signs of marine ich)
1 Mandarinfish
1 Pearlscale Butterfly
2 True Percula Clownfish
1 PJ Cardinal
1 Royal Gramma
1 Long Spined Urchin
25 Astraea Snails
Caulerpa prolifera


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## Pasfur

fishfreak2009 said:


> I accidentally bleached the tank and everything died except the clowns and the cardinal.


???


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## bettababy

Pasfur, I would like to step in a sec here if I may. The comments about the artificial and dead skeletons being the same thing, I have to say I beg to differ there. Dead coral skeletons that have been bleached are just that... once living corals that have died and the skeletons get bleached and used as aquarium decor. Artificial corals are made of resin and "man made" in a factory as aquarium decorations. There are also silicone and plastic "artificial" corals that can look very real, but there is definitely a difference between dead and artificial.


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## Pasfur

bettababy said:


> Pasfur, I would like to step in a sec here if I may. The comments about the artificial and dead skeletons being the same thing, I have to say I beg to differ there. Dead coral skeletons that have been bleached are just that... once living corals that have died and the skeletons get bleached and used as aquarium decor. Artificial corals are made of resin and "man made" in a factory as aquarium decorations. There are also silicone and plastic "artificial" corals that can look very real, but there is definitely a difference between dead and artificial.


Good point. There are actually coral decorations on the market today that are synthetics. I forget about these because I almost never see them in our area, but do see them advertised in the fish magazines. 

I suppose if you wanted to be politically correct about this hobby, it would be a good thing to not buy dead coral skeletons and instead recommend to the LFS owner that they buy they synthetic artificial decorations.


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## Kelso

fishfreak2009 said:


> I accidentally bleached the tank and everything died except the clowns and the cardinal.


How does one accidentally bleach a tank with live fish in it...? Did this happen long ago?...Because the current stocking list you provided doesn't coincide with what you said in the quote.


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## fishfreak2009

About 3 years ago I forgot to rinse the barnacles and they had bleach in them. They were swimming erratically, but I put the fish in my refugium, which is separated from the tank when I clean it (I shut the pipes). However only my 2 clowns, my urchin, and my P.J. Cardinal survived. The cleaner shrimp I thought disappeared actually came crawling out of a cave today! I was so excited when I saw it! The ich seems to be disappearing. I have to check and see if the silicone cured. If it did I will transfer the green terror and set up my quarantine 10 gallon. I also have to say that the Astraea snails are doing an excellent job cleaning up the hair algae that started growing on the live rock. So this is the newly updated stocklist:
1 Bicolor Angel
1 Heniochus
1 Pearlscale Butterflyfish
1 Mandarinfish
1 P.J. Cardinal
1 Royal Gramma
2 True Percula Clownfish
1 Longspined Urchin
1 Common Cleaner Shrimp
25 Astraea Snail


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## Pasfur

fishfreak2009 said:


> The ich seems to be disappearing. So this is the newly updated stocklist:
> 1 Bicolor Angel
> 1 Heniochus
> 1 Pearlscale Butterflyfish
> 1 Mandarinfish
> 1 P.J. Cardinal
> 1 Royal Gramma
> 2 True Percula Clownfish
> 1 Longspined Urchin
> 1 Common Cleaner Shrimp
> 25 Astraea Snail


Are you ready for this. Sit down. You may want to bite into something, because this is going to hurt.

Ready?

You can't call a tank ich free for 90 days after the infection goes away. Yes, 90 days. Ich is a pesky little parasite and it almost always presents itself again if you add fish without following this rule.


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## bettababy

I am biting my tongue on this end. All I am going to say is to please listen to the advice Pasfur has provided, it is sound, good, accurate advice that will take you far in this hobby and save you a ton of money, not to mention animal lives.


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## fishfreak2009

I know, it's just that the fish seem to be fighting off the infection nicely. I will not add any new livestock for 90 days after all symptoms disappear. I had added the shrimp a while ago, but I thought it died since I couldn't find it anywhere. It must have been hiding in a hole in the rock.


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## bettababy

To contribute to your research and learning experience I'd like to note that ich is not an "infection" it is a parasite. If the cycsts have begun to drop from the fish this is just a sign that the life cycle of the parasite has progressed to the next stagel... free swimming. Watch your fish closely over the next week or so. It is unlikely that ich is going to "go away" on its own, as it needs a live host to survive and you have a tank full of those. 

A UV will surely help, but keep in mind that the water from the tank must go through the sterilizer to benefit from it, so really good circulation is important. Unfortunately, treating fish with ich in a marine tank that holds invert life is not an easily doable thing. Medications for the fish are not safe for the inverts, meaning someone would have to be moved to quarantine (either all fish or all inverts) in order to medicate. If inverts are moved to quarantine they would need to stay there for a few wks until the problem has been resoloved and any trace of meds is removed from the tank. If the fish are moved out to quarantine they would need to remain out of the tank for a minumum of 90 days to be sure the parasites are gone and don't reinfect the fish when they go back into the main tank. 

Watch them closely, and for sure do not add anything more to the tank... either fish or invert.


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## 6998

My coral beauty angel fish had ick, I used a tube of powder I disolved into the food and it didn't kill a single invertabrate, but killed the ick.


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## Pasfur

6998 said:


> My coral beauty angel fish had ick, I used a tube of powder I disolved into the food and it didn't kill a single invertabrate, but killed the ick.


Can you be more specific so that others may benefit?


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## fishfreak2009

I will not be adding anything new to my tank for quite a while. I got a U.V. Sterilizer today rated up to 250 gallons and added my smaller one from another tank rated up to 90 gallons for good measure. I also got the garlic food and am currently soaking some home made marine food in it (mysids, krill, blackworms, nori, clam, shrimp, and grape caulerpa). I will begin feeding it tomorrow. I'm hoping all will go well, seeing as the fish are all eating greedily. By the way, my current is amazing. I have 2 of the largest Koralias made, both the U.V. Sterilizers have nice pumps, the skimmer has an amazing pump, the overflow, and both returns. The large U.V. Sterilizer is in the main tank and the smaller one is in the sump.


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## 6998

it is called Metronidazole, it comes in a cylinder that is blue with an orange-brown lid.


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## fishfreak2009

No signs of ich so far, but the urchin died. The butterflies broke down the wall and got him when I was at school.:-(


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