# Small, daily water changes



## CelsB (Oct 3, 2012)

Hi, I have a 125 litre aquarium and have been carrying out 25% water changes every week. I have arthritis in my shoulders and have been finding this quite difficult for some time - the gravel syphoning and carrying heavy buckets of water. 
For the last couple of weeks I have been doing 10 litre changes every day and lightly syphoning a small section of gravel each time. I have found it much easier and I'm wondering if it will work in the long term.
As my tap water is high in nitrates (20ppm) I am even wondering if it will be more beneficial as I treat the new water with Prime at every change.
Any thoughts on this?


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## Romad (Jun 28, 2009)

I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't work ok. Your best bet is to check your water params. every few days to be sure that everything is on track.

Good luck and welcome to the forum


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## CelsB (Oct 3, 2012)

Romad said:


> I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't work ok. Your best bet is to check your water params. every few days to be sure that everything is on track.
> 
> Good luck and welcome to the forum


Thank you for your reply Romad. I have been checking my water params and both ammonia and nitrite have remained at 0ppm. My nitrates, which have always been a little on the high side due to the high content in my tap water have remained about the same, around 30 ppm. I have added lots of live plants to help reduce this and have also added a second nitrax sponge to my filter, although I have never been sure whether these are actually effective or not :-?


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

What about just filling straight from your taps into your tank, just pre condition your tank. It will cost you a few quid for th pipes, Probs 20/30, but over the long term probably be worth it for you with the shoulder. When I don't want to carry it out I siphon into a bucket and then have garden hose running from that bucket into my garden. Don't have to move an inch 

If you spend the time to work out where to put the taps so that you get the right temp water this is even better - I run my hot and cold both on full and get 26 degree water


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

What your doing is fine. When you think of it, the very best water change is no change at all...think of a drip system (like drip irrigation) and an overflow so a small amount of fresh water is constantly entering the tank and 'used' water is constantly exiting.

On the other hand, why use buckets? You could invest in a Python like device to siphon and put water back. 
I just insert the gravel siphon hose into a 5/8" garden hose and drain to the front lawn. For the refill, I bought a $5 hose adapter for the sink and use that same garden hose to refill - works great. This allows larger weekly water changes with no fuss.


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## CelsB (Oct 3, 2012)

Nilet699 said:


> What about just filling straight from your taps into your tank, just pre condition your tank. It will cost you a few quid for th pipes, Probs 20/30, but over the long term probably be worth it for you with the shoulder. When I don't want to carry it out I siphon into a bucket and then have garden hose running from that bucket into my garden. Don't have to move an inch
> 
> If you spend the time to work out where to put the taps so that you get the right temp water this is even better - I run my hot and cold both on full and get 26 degree water


That's a great idea, I'll give it some thought. I am open plan so I have taps in the kitchen part of the lounge 




AbbeysDad said:


> What your doing is fine. When you think of it, the very best water change is no change at all...think of a drip system (like drip irrigation) and an overflow so a small amount of fresh water is constantly entering the tank and 'used' water is constantly exiting.
> 
> On the other hand, why use buckets? You could invest in a Python like device to siphon and put water back.
> I just insert the gravel siphon hose into a 5/8" garden hose and drain to the front lawn. For the refill, I bought a $5 hose adapter for the sink and use that same garden hose to refill - works great. This allows larger weekly water changes with no fuss.


I'll have a look at the Python type pumps. I like the idea of not carrying buckets. On the other hand, I was thinking the small water changes might be a good idea because of my tap water nitrate problem. I believe Prime only locks in the nitrates for around 48 hours (I could be wrong here) so I thought the small daily dosage might be an advantage :-?


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

No your right about prime. How week planted is your tank? As if I hit 20/30 I'd be all over changing my water! Mines NEVER been past about 3. Lol. Lots of plants 

As per your last comment, might more water changes actually be Bad with such high nitrates as should be lower once in tank and the plants have at them????


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## CelsB (Oct 3, 2012)

Nilet699 said:


> No your right about prime. How week planted is your tank? As if I hit 20/30 I'd be all over changing my water! Mines NEVER been past about 3. Lol. Lots of plants
> 
> As per your last comment, might more water changes actually be Bad with such high nitrates as should be lower once in tank and the plants have at them????


About a dozen plants altogether plus some floating duckweed. I don't see how I can ever get my nitrates really low when I'm adding 20ppm in the tap water. I know Prime will bind it for a time and that plants will lower it somewhat, but I don't see how I could ever have levels as low as you. I always understood that below 40ppm was just about okay. Yes, I know 0ppm is desirable but what can I do when my tap-water is so high? I have read a little about reverse osmosis units but they are way beyond my budget.

I see what you mean about more water changes being bad :-(


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

CelsB said:


> Hi, I have a 125 litre aquarium and have been carrying out 25% water changes every week. I have arthritis in my shoulders and have been finding this quite difficult for some time - the gravel syphoning and carrying heavy buckets of water.
> For the last couple of weeks I have been doing 10 litre changes every day and lightly syphoning a small section of gravel each time. I have found it much easier and I'm wondering if it will work in the long term.
> As my tap water is high in nitrates (20ppm) I am even wondering if it will be more beneficial as I treat the new water with Prime at every change.
> Any thoughts on this?


first let me give you a really really nerdy equation:

amount just before water change=amount in replacement water+(buildup between water change)/(fraction of water change)

(this is after many many many water changes so that the value before each water change is the same)

So using your numbers:

So if you're say increasing nitrates at 1ppm/day and doing a 25% weekly water changes the nitrates just before a water change goes to:

(20ppm)+((1ppm/day)*7days)/(1/4)=20ppm+7*(4)=20+28=48PPM


10 liter per day:

(20ppm)+1ppm/(10/125)=20ppm+12.5=32.5ppm


So the key IMHO is to get the 1ppm/day down to 0. That way nitrates will always be 0 regardless of the water changes being done. Increasing the nitrate consumers with live plants does the very well.

I do not recommend prime or any other conditioners. Overdosed they kill the fish. Plus live plants control ammonia/nitrates with ver good side effects.


my .02


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I agree with those who have suggested that more frequent water changes but changing less water each time is actually beneficial in your situation with high nitrates in the tap water.

And I would use Prime in this case, since it binds the nitrates somehow [Seachem themselves are not exactly sure how] and this allows the plants and the special bacteria that use nitrates to have the time to take them up. An initial "shock" of high nitrates at every water change wold not be good for the fish.

Final comment on nitrate levels, we now understand that these should never be allowed to rise above 20ppm and preferably remain below 10ppm. There is sufficient scientific evidence that long-term nitrates above 20ppm do harm most of the fish we maintain.

Byron.


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## CelsB (Oct 3, 2012)

Byron said:


> I agree with those who have suggested that more frequent water changes but changing less water each time is actually beneficial in your situation with high nitrates in the tap water.
> 
> And I would use Prime in this case, since it binds the nitrates somehow [Seachem themselves are not exactly sure how] and this allows the plants and the special bacteria that use nitrates to have the time to take them up. An initial "shock" of high nitrates at every water change wold not be good for the fish.
> 
> ...


Thank you Byron. I will continue with my small, frequent water changes then and keep my eye on my water parameters. 

Thanks also for your reply Beaslbob. I embarrassed to say I didn't really understand it


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

CelsB said:


> Thank you Byron. I will continue with my small, frequent water changes then and keep my eye on my water parameters.
> 
> Thanks also for your reply Beaslbob. I embarrassed to say I didn't really understand it


that is understandable. :lol:

What happens is your tank will wind up at a point where the "stuff" you remove in a water changes equals the build up between water changes. A 1/10 water change the tank build up to 10 times then down to 9 times. 1/20 20 times down to 19. 1/3 3 times etc etc etc.

Byron is correct the small frequent changes will result in more constant parameters. but it is still very possible to have high values. But the after water change values will not drop as much.

For example assume you have a 1/day increase and the water changes have nothing and the amount of change is tied to the frequency. So that 10% every 10 days, 20% every 20 days etc etc etc

Here is where the tank winds up.


%____fraction____days____increase_____ beforechange_____after change

100____1/1______100_____100______________100__________00
_50____1/2_______50______50______________100__________50
_33____1/3_______33______33______________100__________67
_20____1/5_______20______20______________100__________80
_10____1/10______10______10______________100__________90
__5____1/20_______5_______5______________100__________95
__1____1/100______1_______1______________100__________99

continuous flow equally to 1%/day------------continuous 100

No that should really really confuse everyone. :lol:


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

beaslbob said:


> No that should really really confuse everyone. :lol:


I kind of got your last post more i think! Your right, now im thouroughly confused i think!?

There needs to be a ''for dummies'' version of this


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

Nilet699 said:


> I kind of got your last post more i think! Your right, now im thouroughly confused i think!?
> 
> There needs to be a ''for dummies'' version of this


 
sorry,That's the best I can do.

bottom line is it's better to balance out the tank then to rely on water changes. :shock:


my .02


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Now that works for me!

What determines a balanced tank then?

If my readings are Am-0 Nitri- 0 and Nitra- never been above 3,(closer to 1(its a 1-5 scale)) even with a longer gap between water changes etc - over xmas  - would i class this as having a balance? If thats the case, why do i change the water?


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

Nilet699 said:


> Now that works for me!
> 
> What determines a balanced tank then?
> 
> If my readings are Am-0 Nitri- 0 and Nitra- never been above 3,(closer to 1(its a 1-5 scale)) even with a longer gap between water changes etc - over xmas  - would i class this as having a balance? If thats the case, why do i change the water?


 for ammonia and nitrItes you woul dseem to be in balance.

Never heard of a nitrate kit with a 1-5 scale. The api nitrIte kit does max out at 5 but the nitrate test kit has color bars up to 160ppm.


a balanced tank to me is one where fish wastes are fully consumed balanced by plants and vice versa. A stable tank is where the values return to those values should something pull them away from that balance. (note stable can be varying but that variation is stable).

Perhaps if the tank just sets there and never tips over it is balanced also? :lol:

my .02


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

Nilet699 said:


> Now that works for me!
> 
> What determines a balanced tank then?
> 
> If my readings are Am-0 Nitri- 0 and Nitra- never been above 3,(closer to 1(its a 1-5 scale)) even with a longer gap between water changes etc - over xmas  - would i class this as having a balance? If thats the case, why do i change the water?


There are more things than just nitrates that build up in the tank, things that we don't measure for. Most of this has more to do with overstocking what the aquarium "system" can absorb and convert to something usable by something else in the "system" than anything else. If it were balanced and efficient then, like those ecoshperes posted about before Christmas here, you could seal it up and let it run on it's own for quite some time.

Jeff.


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

Nilet699 said:


> Now that works for me!
> 
> What determines a balanced tank then?
> 
> If my readings are Am-0 Nitri- 0 and Nitra- never been above 3,(closer to 1(its a 1-5 scale)) even with a longer gap between water changes etc - over xmas  - would i class this as having a balance? If thats the case, *why do i change the water*?


If the tank is balanced and stable then you change the water because people have told you to do so.

I don't change the water. :lol:


my .02


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

haha that was a cheap answer! I think you can do better 

Ok, so i change it to lower nitrates......if they never rose- ive obviously not tested this over a long term basis - i basically wouldnt need to change it for that.

What about other minerals etc etc that get used up in the tank? Doesnt a water change supplement these, how do you then deal with this - if we are going to go wildly of topic, i'd be happy to take this to PM. I dont want to ruin the thread.


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

Nilet699 said:


> haha that was a cheap answer! I think you can do better
> 
> Ok, so i change it to lower nitrates......if they never rose- ive obviously not tested this over a long term basis - i basically wouldnt need to change it for that.
> 
> What about other minerals etc etc that get used up in the tank? Doesnt a water change supplement these, how do you then deal with this - if we are going to go wildly of topic, i'd be happy to take this to PM. I dont want to ruin the thread.


sounds to me like this is a rather logical and natural continuation of the thread.

In Fw tanks you do have carbonate hardness (KH) (carbonate- ions) and general hardness (calcium,magnesium+ ions). Plus total dissolved solids as well.

I did have an increase in KH and GH in my tanks with a plain sand substrate but both remained constant and low in a tank with peat moss. And I did have problems with neon tetras with the plain substrate but all fish including neons lived for years and years with the peat moss. 

PH in both tank rose to levels of 8.4-8.8 (api high range test kits).

While a water change will limit changes it will not totally reverse the effects. As the really really nerdy equation points out.

so what you have to do is find ways of balancing out those things as well.

Fw I use the peat moss.

For marine I use the diy two part method to maintain calcium, alk, magnesium.


To me the only real alternative is to be honest and run a totally open system. Hook your tank up to a constant water sounce like the ocean, a pond, or stream. And constantly pump water to the tank and let the tank water return to that source. And you would have to do it at a level to where you have several water changes each day.

In that way what is going on with tank is not relevant.

But of course the input water becomes the only thing that is relevant.

With a closed sytem balanced out stabilized, the input water is not relevant only the processes at work in the tank itself.


my .02


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## Timjwilson (Dec 13, 2012)

I am in agreement that if a biological balance can be acheived that water does not have to be changed as much. Right now for some reason, in a planted tank (3.5 weeks old) I'm showing nitrates between 10 and 20 ppm and I'd rather show <5 ppm. 

Because of this I've been doing small water changes daily since observing the nitrates. I'm heating water to 21 in the tub (to avoid using hot water tank) so the largest change I've done is 18% today (12% the day before, 10%, 10%). 

For some odd reason the nitrate readings persist. I do hate reagant tests where the colour judgement can be subjective. I did check the tap water at trace so that does not appear to be the issue. In soil, it takes some time for nutrient cycling microorganisms (protozoa & nematodes) to establish for plants to uptake all nutrients and I suspect that may be what is occurring here but I'm unfamiliar with the waterplant microbial nutrient loop.

I'm tempted to use a product to lock up the nitrates. Prime has been mentioned but it also treats other things like chloramines which I do not need. Seachem recommends Purigen for this. Any thoughts...experience?


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

Timjwilson said:


> ... I'm heating water to 21 in the tub (to avoid using hot water tank) so the largest change I've done is 18% today (12% the day before, 10%, 10%)...


I chose not to use the hot water tank water either, over concerns of adding unnecessary calcium to the tank. Are there other reasons that it should be avoided?

I have since changed my mind as I am just going to cut in some RO water anyway so the added calcium at that point will be negligible. It would just make preheating the water a lot easier.

Jeff.


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

Timjwilson said:


> I am in agreement that if a biological balance can be acheived that water does not have to be changed as much. Right now for some reason, in a planted tank (3.5 weeks old) I'm showing nitrates between 10 and 20 ppm and I'd rather show <5 ppm.
> 
> Because of this I've been doing small water changes daily since observing the nitrates. I'm heating water to 21 in the tub (to avoid using hot water tank) so the largest change I've done is 18% today (12% the day before, 10%, 10%).
> 
> ...


 Tim

I would not use any chemicals expecially to lower nitrates.

An initial nitrate value is part of a planted tank cycle as the plants are consuming ammonia for nitrogen.

Just let things be and nitrates will drop down once the aerobic bacteria build up and consume the ammonia.

My .02


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

JDM said:


> I chose not to use the hot water tank water either, over concerns of adding unnecessary calcium to the tank. *Are there other reasons that it should be avoided*?
> 
> I have since changed my mind as I am just going to cut in some RO water anyway so the added calcium at that point will be negligible. It would just make preheating the water a lot easier.
> 
> Jeff.


 
Copper. From the hot water heater is another conceern. I always use straight tap water from a commonly use cold water faucet. And let the water run 30 seconds to a minute before collecting. (I also just top off). That way I reduce copper and other things that result for long hot water contact with the water heater tank.


my .02


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

Nilet699 said:


> haha that was a cheap answer!


 
Yea

I increased my .02 once and no takers. :lol:


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

> If my readings are Am-0 Nitri- 0 and Nitra- never been above 3,(closer to 1(its a 1-5 scale)) even with a longer gap between water changes etc - over xmas :smile: - would i class this as having a balance? If thats the case, why do i change the water?





> Ok, so i change it to lower nitrates......if they never rose- ive obviously not tested this over a long term basis - i basically wouldnt need to change it for that.
> 
> What about other minerals etc etc that get used up in the tank? Doesnt a water change supplement these, how do you then deal with this - if we are going to go wildly of topic, i'd be happy to take this to PM. I dont want to ruin the thread.


On the reason for water changes, I ask that you read my article on the subject as I see no need to repeat two pages here when it is all there.:BIGwinky: Here is the link:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-articles/regular-partial-water-changes-117205/

As you will see, water changes are essential in most fish tanks. There may be a few exceptions. But these are not the tanks most of us have.

Byron.


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## Timjwilson (Dec 13, 2012)

beaslbob said:


> Tim
> 
> I would not use any chemicals expecially to lower nitrates.
> 
> ...


Do you see any value in inoculating with Seachem Stability, supposedly aerobic and facultative anaerobic bacterial spores?


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

Timjwilson said:


> Do you see any value in inoculating with Seachem Stability, supposedly aerobic and facultative anaerobic bacterial spores?


 
no.


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

JDM said:


> I chose not to use the hot water tank water either, over concerns of adding unnecessary calcium to the tank. Are there other reasons that it should be avoided?


There should be little concern over using some hot water from a hot water tank as the amount of calcium and lime is so very small. It is always a good idea to let water run awhile before using for the aquarium to flush out water that has set in the pipes (copper, lead, etc)



beaslbob said:


> I would not use any chemicals expecially to lower nitrates.


There are no chemicals that remove nitrates. Prime binds nitrates which merely detoxifies them for 24-48 hours.



beaslbob said:


> An initial nitrate value is part of a planted tank cycle as the plants are consuming ammonia for nitrogen.
> 
> Just let things be and nitrates will drop down once the aerobic bacteria build up and consume the ammonia.
> My .02


This statement is incorrect. aerobic nitrosomonas bacteria oxidizes ammonia into nitrites and aerobic nitrosprira bacteria oxidize nitrites into nitrates....as a result, nitrates increase. There are species of anaerobic bacteria that will oxidize nitrates into nitrogen gas. However, these bacteria can only survive in an environment with little/no oxygen which is extremely difficult to create in a fish aquarium.

The notion that there is no need for routine water changes is equally incorrect. Oh with a lot of plants and very little stock, one might 'get away' with few if any water changes, but it's risky for the vast majority of aquariums. As Byron (and countless experts) point out, all aquariums with stock benefit from the periodic removal of polluted water, replacing it with fresh water...just as nature renews fresh water with rain. 

And to the OP, your water isn't so bad.... I have 60-80ppm nitrates in my well water from a 95 acre farmers field across the road!!!

Your plan to minimize water changes is good. Use lots of plants, even floating to reduce tank nitrates. Keeping the tank and filter clean and not over feeding really helps. 
Seachem Purigen can be used to adsorb dissolved organics, before they become part of the nitrogen cycle. Purigen can be regenerated several times in a 50/50 water/bleach mix.
Products like Fluval Lab Series Nitrate Remover (FNR) and API's Nitra-Zorb are synthetic resins that effectively adsorb nitrates. They are regenerated in a salt water solution. 

Keep us posted.

regards,
AD


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## CelsB (Oct 3, 2012)

Off into town today, so I'll go to my LFD and see what he has in the line of Nitrate absorbing filter media. I was always under the impression the nitrate removers were some some of liquid chemical you added to the water *doh* and I hate adding chemicals.

I know I'm also probably guilty of overfeeding so I'll cut back and miss out feeding altogether one day a week. I will get these nitrates down *stamps foot*

Thanks for everyone's help, even that which went over my head. 

This is a great forum and very friendly. I ventured into one or two fish forums before I settled here and found some of them a bit erm ... over critical ...not always helpful when you are genuinely trying to create the best environment for your fish.

I'll let you know how it goes :-D


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## CelsB (Oct 3, 2012)

Small update: I bought some JBL NitratEx as recommended by my LFD.

JBL NitratEX - Aquatis Fresh water - JBL

Some of the products mentioned are either not available in this country or only available online and I wanted to get something in today.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

It would be interesting to have tested prior to using it then test again afterwards and see the effectiveness. I assume that you you could just plop that into the filter after your water change, suck them up, then remove it for later use again.

... reactivation with common salt.... 

I don't know how this works but is there any chance that it uses salt to displace the Nitrates somehow leaving you with a sodium problem in place of a Nitrate problem?

Jeff.


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

AbbeysDad said:


> beaslbob said:
> 
> 
> > _An initial nitrate value is part of a planted tank cycle as the plants are consuming ammonia for nitrogen._
> ...


Well I do tend to (over)simplify things at times.

and your statment is correct.

But when you setup a planted tank there can be existing nitrate sources like from organic substrates, input water and so on. Not just the nitrates generated from the aerobic bacterial action.

In that case the plants will bypass the nitrates and consume the ammonia instead. So nitrates can initially build up.

I hope new hobbiest are not overly concerned by that as in a planted tank that actually is a good sign. Much better to have nitrates then ammonia in either a new tank or a mature tank that suffered some shock and is recovering.


And I have noticed very high nitrate levels in a marine system for months. Like red on the api test kit. Then in 3 weeks they dropped to 0. The tank was balanced out by macro algae which probably was not only consuming ammonia but also growing and expanding while bacteria consuming builds up (consuming ammonia) and finally dropping nitrates down.

Here are parameters I measured on a new 20g leiden I set up. It show the initial nitrate spike I mentioned.


Still just my .02


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## CelsB (Oct 3, 2012)

JDM said:


> It would be interesting to have tested prior to using it then test again afterwards and see the effectiveness. I assume that you you could just plop that into the filter after your water change, suck them up, then remove it for later use again.
> 
> ... reactivation with common salt....
> 
> ...


I did. I took a sample and thought it was about 40ppm. I can't really tell the difference between the 40ppm and the 80ppm on the API liquid test chart so I took it into my LFD and he did a dilution and said it was about 40ppm. I'll test it again in a few days. You soak it in iodine-free salt for a couple of days to reactivate it, then rinse it loads so you rinse all the salt out. I also found out my LFD sells RO water at 10p litre. He said you shouldn't use it all of the time through as it strips water of some essential stuff.

Interestingly, the leaflet that came with the NitratEx recommends that the nitrate content should not drop below 10mg/1 to avoid the risk of toxic hydrogen sulphide forming :-?


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

CelsB said:


> Interestingly, the leaflet that came with the NitratEx recommends that the nitrate content should not drop below 10mg/1 to avoid the risk of toxic hydrogen sulphide forming :-?


Right. H2S is a product of an anaerobic process which is not generally something that can happen unless you have some deep substrate. I'd take my chances.

Jeff.


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## CelsB (Oct 3, 2012)

JDM said:


> Right. H2S is a product of an anaerobic process which is not generally something that can happen unless you have some deep substrate. I'd take my chances.
> 
> Jeff.


Thanks Jeff, that confused me a little :-?


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## CelsB (Oct 3, 2012)

Update: My nitrate levels have come right down to 10ppm overnight. I can't really believe it. I am shocked, but in a good way :-D


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

CelsB said:


> Update: My nitrate levels have come right down to 10ppm overnight. I can't really believe it. I am shocked, but in a good way :-D


 
Good and amazing isn't it? :shock:


I remember my "fighting" nitrItes on my first saltwater tank. They lasted for weeks until I stopped adding food. Then a week later they dropped to 0 in a couple of days.

Who says good things don't happen fast. :lol:

The second most enjoyable shocking thing was when nitrates did as your's have.

congratues.

worth much more than my usual.

.02


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## CelsB (Oct 3, 2012)

They've come down even more now - about 5ppm. It's a great feeling looking at my fish and knowing they are swimming around in nice water.


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