# Need quick identification. SAE or flying fox



## hywaydave (Nov 19, 2011)

I bought two for my tank because I have a lot of BBA. They looked like true SAEs at the store. Black band goes all the way though the tail. They only have 1 pair of whiskers. It's just that it's very hard to tell if this is a gold band above the black one. The black band does look a little zig zagged. Please help, I'd rather not put them in the tank if they are flying foxes.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y158/jordan_fan/SAE2_zpsa700c7b5.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y158/jordan_fan/SAE_zps53cc7d04.jpg


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## hywaydave (Nov 19, 2011)

*SAE or Flying Fox?*

I bought two for my tank because I have a lot of BBA. They looked like true SAEs at the store. Black band goes all the way though the tail. They only have 1 pair of whiskers. It's just that it's very hard to tell if this is a gold band above the black one. The black band does look a little zig zagged. Please help, I'd rather not put them in the tank if they are flying foxes.


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y158/jordan_fan/SAE2_zpsa700c7b5.jpg


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y158/jordan_fan/SAE_zps53cc7d04.jpg


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I would say those are Crossocheilus langei which, as it mentions in the profile, is the actual species usually commonly called the SAE. The False SAE does not have the lateral band extending into the caudal fin. And the Flying Fox has coloured fins. Check our profile for more (click the shaded name).

Byron.

Edit: I came across a duplicate thread so I have merged the two into one. Byron.


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## hywaydave (Nov 19, 2011)

Thanks for the quick response Byron. I feel very confident now that they are true SAEs coming from you, so I released them into the tank. Lights are off now so they don't get stressed out but am excited to see them eat away at the BBA this weekend!

I've never been able to combat this bba balancing everything else out and I don't want to overdose my tank all the time with Flourish Excel. Might as well get some fish that enjoy this stuff. ;-)


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## hywaydave (Nov 19, 2011)

I know I posted twice. I had the fish in the bag getting acclimated to my tank and needed some quick responses. I didn't want to put them in my tank if they were not SAEs. These were hard for me to tell. In the store tank they looked like true SAEs but started doubting myself when I got home.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

hywaydave said:


> Thanks for the quick response Byron. I feel very confident now that they are true SAEs coming from you, so I released them into the tank. Lights are off now so they don't get stressed out but am excited to see them eat away at the BBA this weekend!
> 
> I've never been able to combat this bba balancing everything else out and I don't want to overdose my tank all the time with Flourish Excel. Might as well get some fish that enjoy this stuff. ;-)


Brush algae is caused by light, with nutrients obviously present. In planted tanks it is easy to control by simply keeping the light less. If the light is balanced with the available nutrients for the plants, this algae will not have an advantage.

SAE are OK, if youhave the tank space (check the profile). And given what is in Excel, I will never use it.


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## hywaydave (Nov 19, 2011)

Thanks Byron but you and I have discussed this before. I only have two T5 bulbs now, I run them 6 hours a day, do 20% water changes per week, and add Excel Comprehensive the day after the water change. Plus I put fertilizer tabs under the gravel near my 3 amazon swords (1 tab each) every 3 months. What am I doing wrong? Is there a test kit I can use to test the amount of micro and macro nutrients available in my tank? Should I stop using tap water and get a RO device? I do occassionally put the recommended dosage of Flourish in my tank when I think about it, maybe once a week. Do you think that fluctuation in carbon could be causing the BBA?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

hywaydave said:


> Thanks Byron but you and I have discussed this before. I only have two T5 bulbs now, I run them 6 hours a day, do 20% water changes per week, and add Excel Comprehensive the day after the water change. Plus I put fertilizer tabs under the gravel near my 3 amazon swords (1 tab each) every 3 months. What am I doing wrong? Is there a test kit I can use to test the amount of micro and macro nutrients available in my tank? Should I stop using tap water and get a RO device? I do occassionally put the recommended dosage of Flourish in my tank when I think about it, maybe once a week. Do you think that fluctuation in carbon could be causing the BBA?


First, generally speaking, any fluctuation from week to week with respect to plant nutrients (those being added) is going to cause problems for the plants, and algae is always waiting to take advantage of this. So the first thing, is a regular program of adding whatever one adds. Otherwise, you are always going to be basically fighting uphill. And I'm here obviously referring to liquid additives; the substrate tabs once every three months is fine, I do that for my larger swords and the lotus plants. But plants are continually assimilating various nutrients via their roots and leaves, and if these run out the plants have no option but to slow their photosynthesis and in severe cases even shut down. This is why the balance is so important between light and all nutrients.

Now to specifics, if the previous discussion was in this thread
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/aquarium-plants/what-should-i-doing-109345/
and the tank and light is the one mentioned therein, I must say that I consider this too much light intensity. Reducing the duration as you have done, and having a good layer of floating plants, is about all you can do. From what you say, this doesn't seem to be sufficient, or the brush algae would not be a problem. But here I should ask, just how much of a problem is it? If it is on the plant leaves, and increases on the plant leaves noticeably, that is a problem as it will suffocate the plants. But if it is just on wood or rock decor, I leave it alone. My wood in my tanks is covered in brush algae, and frankly it looks quite lovely; and the fish are forever browsing through it searching for microscopic live foods and finding them. So use the plants as the indicator.

I don't advise using Excel; Seachem admit they don't know why it sometimes kills brush algae, but if one considers the sole ingredient this is not too surprising. I wouldn't want this in my fish tanks. Flourish Comprehensive is fine, once or twice a week; with your light I would suggest at least twice, and maybe three times, but at regular intervals. I am now dosing Flourish three times weekly, two days apart for each. But I have less light intensity than you have over my larger tanks.

Byron.


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## hywaydave (Nov 19, 2011)

Byron, 

If you recall, I have a 45 gallon high tank. I believe it is 22" tall. Are you suggesting that I remove one of the bulbs? Right now I have 6700k and a colormax, both T5 standards. Should I remove the colormax? What about the duration, should I decrease it from 7 hours to 6?


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## Quantum (Jul 23, 2011)

Depends on the fixture.

Is yours High Output or not? Whether or not the tubes are HO or not is irrelevant (they will work in either type fixture, but as you experienced, problems can arise when HOs are used in non-HO fixtures and vise versa). As I've said before it is the ballast within the fixture that ultimately determines light output.

If your fixture is HO, that is what is causing the algae.


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## hywaydave (Nov 19, 2011)

They are non-HO tubes in a non-HO ballast.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Quantum (Jul 23, 2011)

non-HO T5s put out about the same amount of light per unit length as T8s, so two of these on that size tank should be manageable for a low-tech, natural set-up

floating plants could help, I have a dual 24" T5 fixture over a 25 gal (20" tall) with no algae issues at all, but it does have a thick layer of floating plants

if you don't like the three dimensionality of hanging roots, or floating stem plants, something like vallisneria allowed to grow up and across the surface could be an option


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## hywaydave (Nov 19, 2011)

What are some good floating plants? I have a lot of moneyworts, but they are buried, not for floating. I dont mind hanging roots cuz I have them on the moneyworts. How do floating plants combat algae? Just by blocking out light?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Quantum (Jul 23, 2011)

I have red root floater, 'dwarf' water lettuce, salvinia cucullata, and asian watergrass, I'm in the process of replacing the water lettuce with one of the last two mentioned or maybe both, the water lettuce roots are too long for my liking - some over two feet long in a 18" tall tank

primarily by limiting the light that makes it to the tank (which can be by a lot, so you would need to keep an eye out for signs that the plants below aren't getting enough light), but also my removing excess nutrients


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Quantum said:


> non-HO T5s put out about the same amount of light per unit length as T8s, so two of these on that size tank should be manageable for a low-tech, natural set-up
> 
> floating plants could help, I have a dual 24" T5 fixture over a 25 gal (20" tall) with no algae issues at all, but it does have a thick layer of floating plants
> 
> if you don't like the three dimensionality of hanging roots, or floating stem plants, something like vallisneria allowed to grow up and across the surface could be an option


I agree this (the T5 NO) should work. Given that T5 is more efficient than T8, it is likely that a bit more light output is occurring, but not so much that it can't be managed. So that leads me back to my comment on regular dosing of nutrients. Any irregularity can create these opportunities for algae.

On the floating, my personal favourite is Water Sprite. If allowed to spread, it can very effectively darken the tank. But it is easy to keep it in balance, by removing the largest/larger plants during the water change and allowing the smaller to grow, then next week or the week following, same thinning process.

Byron.


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## hywaydave (Nov 19, 2011)

I'll look into a floating plant or two. Do I need to dose anything additional to the flourish comprehensive? I will start doing my water changes on the same day every week and dose the flourish on a set schedule twice a week as well. Hopefully this will help and that my SAEs take care of what I currently have.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

hywaydave said:


> I'll look into a floating plant or two. Do I need to dose anything additional to the flourish comprehensive? I will start doing my water changes on the same day every week and dose the flourish on a set schedule twice a week as well. Hopefully this will help and that my SAEs take care of what I currently have.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That should work fine.


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## hywaydave (Nov 19, 2011)

Alright, so I bought a water sprite today and man are they big! All of my LFS water sprites were huge. If I had known about these in the beginning I would have stocked my tank with this buried in the substrate instead of waiting for a bunch of money wort to cover my tank. Anyway, all of their water sprites were buried but I'm going to leave it floating like you suggested. Some of the root is out of the water, will that be ok? What do you guys think? It does block out a lot of the light below but I still have half the tank without water sprite. Should I worry about this now or do you think this is enough? I know it will probably spread like crazy. 

What do you guys think of my landscape? When I first set it up, I was going for a pretty clean look but I wish I could start over. However I won't because I dont want to disrupt the fish and I would never be able to catch all of the cherry shrimp I have in there. I haven't seen too much BBA munching yet from my new SAEs but there is too much in there for me to tell at this point. I'm seeing some full stomachs on both.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y158/jordan_fan/20121230_190531_zpsc1300974.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y158/jordan_fan/20121230_190543_zps0f7300be.jpg

Byron, you might as well move this thread back to Plants since it have gone from indentifying SAEs back to solving my BBA issue. :-D


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

hywaydave said:


> Alright, so I bought a water sprite today and man are they big! All of my LFS water sprites were huge. If I had known about these in the beginning I would have stocked my tank with this buried in the substrate instead of waiting for a bunch of money wort to cover my tank. Anyway, all of their water sprites were buried but I'm going to leave it floating like you suggested. Some of the root is out of the water, will that be ok? What do you guys think? It does block out a lot of the light below but I still have half the tank without water sprite. Should I worry about this now or do you think this is enough? I know it will probably spread like crazy.
> 
> What do you guys think of my landscape? When I first set it up, I was going for a pretty clean look but I wish I could start over. However I won't because I dont want to disrupt the fish and I would never be able to catch all of the cherry shrimp I have in there. I haven't seen too much BBA munching yet from my new SAEs but there is too much in there for me to tell at this point. I'm seeing some full stomachs on both.
> 
> ...


From the photos you have Ceratopteris thalictroides which should be planted in this case since it was previously in the substrate. Otherwise it may die. As it settles after it is planted, new plants will appear on alternate fronds (leaves) and these can gently be removed and allowed to float and you will then have your floating plants. See our profile of Water Sprite for more info on the species.


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## hywaydave (Nov 19, 2011)

Crap, now I have to disturb the tank. Where do you think this beast will look good? Should I place it behind the driftwood in the middle of the tank?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

hywaydave said:


> Crap, now I have to disturb the tank. Where do you think this beast will look good? Should I place it behind the driftwood in the middle of the tank?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would use it to cover some of the equipment, so the right rear corner is one option.


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## hywaydave (Nov 19, 2011)

I was thinking that, but I cant block the powerhead near the top or the intake on the left side. I guess I could trim some of it. Ugh this is going to be a mess
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

hywaydave said:


> I was thinking that, but I cant block the powerhead near the top or the intake on the left side. I guess I could trim some of it. Ugh this is going to be a mess
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This plant won't be a problem with the filter. The filter intake can have plants very close, mine all do, leaves touching the intake basket. The powerhead will likely push leaves away anyway.


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