# Please help! Horrible case of Columnaris



## RackinRocky (Feb 11, 2012)

I am a newbie with a 55 gallon tank that has been cycled for maybe 6 weeks. Ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates average 10-20. I have unfortunately learned the hard way--QUARANTINE! I didn't heed the advice I had read over and over, and am now paying for it, big time. I have been adding fish gradually (3-4 every 2 weeks). No problems except ich at the beginning that elevated temperature and salt took care of. The last two fish I got, about 18 days ago, died within two days of each other. This was 3 days ago. One was puny looking and ragged fins with reduced appetite the last two days before death, but no other symptoms. She was dead within a day. That was a platy. My balloon Platy was next, and she died even quicker. I did see a "film" from her waist on back to her tail. I watch my fish closely, so it couldn't have been there for long before she became ill. They were both put into the hospital tank with aquarium salt and 80 degree temp. after they'd shown symptoms for no more than two days. 

In the last 4 days, I have lost 6 fish. After the first two died, it started spreading like wildfire. My dearly beloved female betta had a spot that was tannish on her side last night (only symptom) but I wasn't sure if it was her color changing or not, since she was marbling. She was FINE yesterday, eating and active as usual. I put her in my 10 gallon hospital tank last night when I saw the spot on her side and she became listless quickly. She was in the last stages of death this morning, so I euthanized her. Never thought I'd cry over a fish. . . meanwhile another platy I noticed had a spot of white on her mouth last night. No other symptoms with her either. So I put her in the hospital tank was well. Not long after, I saw yet another platy with a white mouth. In the hospital tank she went. Went to a vet supply store (after furiously researching online as to what they might have, and the best meds to use). 

My head was swimming after all that reading, and knew I had to move fast, but finally concluded it must be columnaris, considering the symptoms and how fast and furious it was moving The people I read about who had had the most success used Maracyn Two or Kanamycin and Furan. Some used both Maracyn and Maracyn Two concurrently. The vet store had the Maracyn Two, so I got it, and, after a big water change, added the first day's two packets. As I mentioned, the first platy was dead this morning. (After less than 12 hours of noticing the white spot!) and of course, the betta was upside down, on the bottom, gasping, and I ended her suffering. This morning another platy was listless and did not eat and was staying right at the top (although no spots or anything on her) so she's now also in the hospital tank. I am stunned. 

Now I still have the other platy with the white mouth, but she's on the bottom, breathing hard, so I suspect it won't be long for her. Managed to lower the temp last night to 75 (can't get it much lower than that with the hot weather right now), added 2 teaspoons of aquarium salt to start (will add more tomorrow) and the second dose of the Maracyn Two. Should I also get Maracyn? I know Columnaris is gram negative, but do I also need to be using Maracyn (because its gram positive) in case of a secondary infection?

I'm beside myself, and from what I read, it sounds like a severe case that is going to wipe out my entire tank, considering how fast they are dying. I still have one platy, 3 balloon mollies, four female bettas and a Bolivian Ram in the 55 gallon without symptoms. I will be devastated if I lose them all. Does this sound hopeless, considering how fast I lost two of them? And is there anything else (or betterthan I'm doing for them?) I'm going to order more Maracyn Two and Maracyn online today and should get it before I run out of my current Maracyn Two.


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Oh no. . . I'm _SO_ sorry for your losses. *HUGS* It sounds like you're doing everything you can. I don't know anything about disease and treatment, but my heart suck when I saw this thread with your name on it. . . 

Here's a *BUMP* to get your post to the top of the page - hopefully someone who can help you will see it and give you some advice. 

Good luck, dear. . . I'm so sorry!


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## RackinRocky (Feb 11, 2012)

Thanks so much, Ches. I've come to the conclusion, thru my readings that its a very virulent strain, or else the fish wouldn't be dying this quickly. I get the feeling from what I've read that if this is the case, there isn't much hope and that its probably not treatable. Its apparently the type that starts inside, ruining organs, and you don't see any symptoms until its already too late. I can't believe how much I've been crying over losing these fish. Two more female bettas are now hiding most of the time, so I suspect they will be next. Pretty soon my 10 gallon hospital tank will be way overstocked with sick fish. Well, that is, if I don't lose a few more tonight, which I'm afraid is going to happen as they all seem on a fast downward spiral. Someone please give me some input!


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## LyzzaRyzz (Dec 18, 2011)

Oh no! 
I really hope its not as bad as that!
I wish i knew more, but have you done a water change and good gravel cleaning since you started having dying fish?


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

GAH!. . . and it's the weekend, not as many people are active on the weekend. From the (very litte) I know about the disease, I think lowering the temp and salt was the way to go - you're doing your best, I'm so very very SAD for you! Not that it would make you feel any better, but I cry when I lose fish, too.


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## Snappyarcher (Aug 6, 2011)

To be honest you are doing as much as you can... Columnaris is a nasty disease and is often a tank wiper.... however try getting your tank up to 1% salinity, with the fish you have you are safe to do this and it may help the medications.... you have been given good advice on the medications and i would go with those. If I can help in any other way please do message me ok?


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Thanks, Snappy! I really appreciate your advice *hugs*

Any word on how it's going over there, Rocky? I hope things are looking up!


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## RackinRocky (Feb 11, 2012)

Thanks so much to you guys for your support and sympathy! I am grieving, and have lost 2 more fish as of this morning. Again, no signs except for a spot of white on the mouth the day before. 

I got the Maracyn from my local vet supply store, as Petsmart was charging $21.99 for it! And for the Maracyn Two they were charging $14.99! The vet supply store only charged $9.99 for each. This is fo r8 packets of meds. Talk about price gouging! I will not ever get anything from Petsmart again unless I just cannot find it elsewhere. I know I got the Columnaris from them, as it was the two fish I got from them that died first. Before that I had no problems. They only offer a 7 day guarantee, and these fish didn't manifest signs of the disease until after that. I realize its difficult for them to keep such a large number of fish healthy, but they HAD to have known about this Columnaris (or at least they should know by now).

Thanks so much Snappy, for offering for me to message you. I will if I have any further questions. The Maracyn and Maracyn Two can be used concurrently, as it says on the box, but it doesn't say anywhere if the full dose of each med should be used. I read the whole package insert, and it said nothing about that, so I went ahead and gave the full dose of Maracyn. I was so afraid of overdosing! But the fish seem fine. I also added a little over a teaspoon more salt this morning, for a total of about 6. I want to get it up to 1 teaspoon per gallon in the next few days. I added two more bettas to the tank this morning as they were not interested in eating. I know now how fast this disease can move,, so I didn't want to take any chances. I went back and forth, then decided I'd rather expose them to these possibly toxic meds than lose them for sure.

Ches, thank you for sticking by me. I knew you would.This is a nightmare that I just want to go away!

The fish in the hospital tank are looking good, and I did get them to eat some bloodworms this afternoon (their favorite, lol). So I felt that at least they have some nutrition in them. I'll give them bloodworms daily if that's the only thing I can get them to eat. The remaining fish in the 55 gallon are all looking good too. Even if I can only save a few, it would be so much better than losing ALL my little friends!


Yes, I do regular water changes, and check my water parameters and vac the gravel on a weekly basis. Actually, I check my nitrates 2-3 times a week as I tend to overfeed, trying to be sure everyone gets their share. I check Ammonia and Nitrites weekly. If the nitrates are higher than 20, I will do a water change more often than weekly. I am very particular about those things. And yes, I did a water change within a couple of days before the deaths started.

After the 5 days of treatment I will change 25% of the water as directed, then start the second round, as I feel its probably necessary. That is, if I have any fish left by then. . . I will keep you guys posted. I never knew fish could mean so much to a person, and how painful it is to watch them get sick and know you're probably going to lose them.


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Mixed news. . . but at least some of it is good!

. . . one thing I can suggest is to stop overfeeding (forever), and feed them lightly as they're getting through this ordeal. Keeping them eating _is_ important, but you also want to keep the water as clean as possible - especially if you'll be skipping water changes while treating the tank. It might be a good idea to keep your hood lights off as much as possible, as this will keep the fish calmer, and lower their stress level a bit. Hopefully these things will help them fight off this awful disease!

Snappy is wonderful, and he knows his stuff. Listen to what he tells you - he's never steered me wrong (and he's steered me through quite a few murky patches since I started keeping fish!).

Again. . . I'm so sorry you have to deal with this. I know how excited you've been about your tank. Hang in there, and keep us posted, k? *hugs*


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## Pearl2011 (May 21, 2012)

So that what my betta had . . . I got her for my sisters birthday and half her body had a coating on it the day after.
I tried Melafix but she didn't even try to eat and passed away. I'm so so sorry about your fish, I had a betta pas on the 13th (last Friday, figure that) and I cried, a lot.
To get rid of it you could boil the decorations and bleach them and when your done the the treatment you could do very small daily water changes to get the bug out of there. And (if possible) separate the healthy fish so they might not get sick.
Hope all goes well


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Aww, Pearl! I'm so sorry to hear! It's always upsetting to lose a fish. . . I'm new to Betta care, and I realize it's too late now, but did you adjust the dose of that medication? I've read that the oils in Melafix can be harmful to Betta's labyrinth organs unless very diluted?  Just wondering on the off-chance you (or I) will need it in the future.

Rocky. . . just keep on doing what you're doing . . . I think you've gotten good advice and are doing all you can to get rid of this awful illness. *sigh*


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## Pearl2011 (May 21, 2012)

Dont worry, that happened last August. Pearl jumped out last week.  And I had a lid . . . duct taped on . . .
This might be the only disease I hate more then Dropsy.


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## RackinRocky (Feb 11, 2012)

OMG, Columnaris. . . I *never, ever* want to deal with this again! I had no idea it could be so deadly. Ches, I do keep the light out all the time on the hospital tank. Only turn it on to feed. And yes, I'm trying to learn to feed less. You know how you worry about the ones that get pushed away at feeding time--my tiny baby Betta that I've only had for 3 weeks would never get anything to eat if I didn't drop some halfway down the tank. And the Bolivian Ram, well you know how they are. He'll come halfway to the surface, but no further, and the mollies, being mollies, gobble up EVERYTHING that comes anywhere near them, so that's the main reason I've fed a bit more than I'd have liked to at times. If only the little betta doesn't get it. She's had a rough time of it, being in Petsmart (you know how that is) and so skinny and tiny. Just in the last week she's been coming out of hiding and losing her fear of the other fish and me. Exploring and finally relaxing. She's so young, and I wanted so much for her to have a good life in that big tank. I'd like to save them all, it breaks my heart to see them in those jars, knowing that most people that buy them will not do them much better. But that's another post altogether. . . And I'm not playing favorites here, but the Bolivian Ram has been such a total and complete delight. I see what you mean, Ches. He's got personality and a half! I'd hate to see him go.

Sorry to hear about your betta, Pearl. I hear they are especially prone to this &&*$*%$$*$ disease! I HATE IT! Seeing that film, or patches on the body, or a white lip or red gills just chills me to the bone now, and I guess it always will. This experience I wouldn't wish on anyone. You never know what will await you in the morning, and you hold your breath, not knowing who might have left you during the night.


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## Snappyarcher (Aug 6, 2011)

Rackin I was gonna come on to what to do after treatment later but seeing as its been raised I'll comment now ... This disease can lie dormant on ornaments so you do need to take some action. What I'd suggest is washing all ornaments in distiller vinegar and changing half your filter media then in a months time changing the other half too. Do NOT USE BLEACH!!!!!!! Fis cannot tolerate chelated chlorine!!!!!! Betta are not the "beginners "fish they are made out to be and you are experiencing what can and does happen to virtually all fish keepers... It's not uncommon unfortunately and especially with anabantids. But don't worry it's not a frequent occurrence!!!
Golden rule .... Cheshi is totally and utterly right NEVER OVER FEED... I cannot stress this enough. You might like to consider how riverine fish feed in the wild... They don't have a supermarket or kitchen they can go to when they are hungry ... They have to wait for food to come to them!!!! As such they don't feed every day and often not for a couple of days... That's life in the wild... I personally replicate this opportunistic food supply because I feed when I remember to do so... And to be fair my parameters are always within a good safe level because the fish clean the tank up well. 
I agree with lowering the lights too it's a good way to reduce stress. 
Hope it works out... You know where I am.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

I hope I never have to deal with this one, its nightmarish! 

Glad to hear you've been keeping the lights out. And yes. . . lol, I know how difficult it can be to get a Bolivian their dinner with Mollies in the tank. I can't wait until my Mollies go into their species-only tank. I love them so, but they're definitely greedy! Have you tried the cichlid pellets by NLS? This has really helped me out quite a bit. The Mollies seem to have to 'chew' them more, while the Rams gobble them right down. Only. . . I'm not sure if Betta can have them, because of the vegetable and fruit content? I'm new to Betta (well, fish in general!). Maybe something to look into for you? (not that you need anything else to look into right now) It made me feel better to learn that the difference in the appetites of these fish is due to their very different digestive systems - Rams don't need as much food as the Mollies do, and I think it's the same with Betta. Your Mollies are also constantly at work 'cleaning' the tank of algae, so they'll always have enough. My rams are not shy and will come to the surface for food, which has made my life easier. Still, Snappy is right, they don't need to eat every day (though they do beg so! I feel so bad for them!), so less is more - especially right now.

I know a lot of people on here do use bleach, but personally - the thought terrifies me. Vinegar is a _great_ disinfectant, kills fungus and mold spores, doesn't leave a residue, and _far_ safer than bleach should it get into your tank. I actually use vinegar to clean all my fishy things, as well as my counter-tops and such around the house! (I don't like to have spray cleaners and such with so many small children about, and vinegar works just as well). If you don't already have a seperate siphon/vaccume and bucket for your QT/Hospital tank, I'd recommend getting one. Keeping the tank's 'tools' separate will go far in helping to prevent cross-contamination. . . especially with future new-arrivals.

I really hope the rest of your little ones pull through. I know how devastating all this must for you. . . you're doing an excellent job over there! Keep up the good work! Hopefully the worst is behind you - forever!




Pearl? With _DUCT TAPE?!!_:shock: He must have been a Houdini fish, poor little guy. I'm sorry to hear such sad news. . .


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## RackinRocky (Feb 11, 2012)

OK, I'll clean all the ornaments with vinegar. Soak them, I guess? And then rinse well and put back in. Does that sound good? I will change my filter cartridges. Luckily I have several replacements, so I'll replace one half now and the other half in a month.

I didn't feed today, although everyone was really begging. I'll just try to hold off feeding one or two days a week and feed less the rest of the time. I do use the NLS pellets, Ches. Both the betta and cichlid ones. I usually just mix them together and soak before feeding. That way hopefully everyone gets what they need as its impossible to make sure the Ram gets only cichlid pellets, and the bettas only betta pellets.

Question: I am on the 4th day of Maracyn Two, and the second day of Maracyn. Fish were put into the hospital tank at different times. Two were put in two days later than the others. How do I work that in terms of the Maracyn and Maracyn Two ? Its confusing, although I have it all written down. I guess I just have to dose a couple days longer for the latecomers, and the others will have to have 2 extra days? I also started the Maracyn two days later than the Maracyn Two, so that is making it even more confusing. Also, I know I need to do two rounds of treatment with both meds. Do I give the fish a day or two of clean waterand a break from meds before I start the second round? Or do I have to start it immediately, the next day after the first round? I can tell the bettas are not liking all the meds. They act annoyed and not as active, although not sick. I don't want the meds to kill them.


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## Snappyarcher (Aug 6, 2011)

Hey Rackin, good question and it actually ahs a very simple answer.... the medication works by concentration in the water.... so what you need to do is dose wit the meds for the times it states on the bottle or package and then take the fish out in the same order in which you put them in... and at the same time intervals.... that way they all have the same length of exposure to the meds at the full concentration..... the reason the dosages are as they are on the package is to make sure the meds are increased in concentration gradually, because, as well we know, fish CAN handle extremes but CANT handle shocks. Id give it 48 hurs before the second round and yes do a 10% water change on both days between the end of the first round and the start of the second round..... this is just to let them breath a bit easier.
The plan with the vinegar is good.... just rinse well because the acetic acid is not something they will have encountered before, however its not as lethal to fish as bleach. Bleach contains sodium hypochlorite which is lethal to fish even in small doses. Anyone who uses bleach anywhere NEAR their fish tank needs their head looking at because it really is dangerous and asking for trouble!
The fish wanting to be fed is a very encouraging sign and you should take heart from this, its good news.... however stick to your guns, sometimes you have to be harsh to be kind.
Well done ... you are doing all the right things and doing well.


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Rocky! It sounds like things are looking up over there! Keep up the great work, you're handling this so perfectly, I'm proud of you, hon! *hugs*


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## Pearl2011 (May 21, 2012)

Yes, with duct tape. He was suicidal, my other friend called him a penguin, tries to fly like a bird but needs water. Bad joke, I know.
Good to know about the vinegar, I HATE having to use bleach. Always creeps me out that I wont get all of it off. Only time I use it is if a fish had dropsy or buy a second hand tank. That had turtles in it, since they carry salmonella. 
Rackin I hope your fish get better!! I know how stressful multiple fish being sick is, I hate it! OMG i hope they get better.


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## RackinRocky (Feb 11, 2012)

Wow, three days with no deaths, and guess what happens this morning? You won't believe my bad luck. My pecious little blue female betta who was very tiny and terribly skinny that I rescued, was doing just fine (as are all the others in the 55) and had been coming out often and exploring for the last three days, losing her fear of other fish and people, and gaining weight and coming up to the glass to see me for the first time yesterday. I was thrilled.

Well, this morning I noticed she was head down (with tail straight up) with her face in the rocks (pea pebbles). I thought she was rooting for food at first, then realized she wasn't moving. I grabbed a bamboo stick and touched her. No sign of life. I separated the rocks and she floated right up, but lifeless. I looked on her face, and no white lips or spots on her anywhere. She had apparently been rooting around for food and gotten her little head stuck between two pebbles, and couldn't get loose! She wasn't stiff, so I knew it had happened very recently. I pressed her little chest very gently for a few minutes, then remembered to pull her backward in the water to force water into her gills. I tried for 15 minutes. No good.

Ironic, isn't it, that I'm fighting this awful disease, and this betta has not gotten it, and then has a freak accident that kills her? I really cried with this one. She'd been saved, was coming out of her shell and getting bigger and healthy, and then its over, just like that.She was still just a baby. I'm still stunned.

Snappy, I do understand what you're saying, but I not only added fish at different times, I also started the Maracyn AFTER I'd started the Maracyn Two. So in order to get the full 5 day's worth of Maracyn, the first fish added will have to have an additional two days of Maracyn Two. So I can't take them out until they've had their full coursee of Maracyn. Am I explaining this right? Its confusing, I know. I just don't want to expose them to any more meds than I have to. But looks like this is how it will have to go. I just want this over!


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## Snappyarcher (Aug 6, 2011)

Ok cool .... Good question and the answer is in the dosing.... The dosage reaches full concentration after 5 days and there after doesn't increase ... On the contrary it starts to decrease at a sim alar rate to the 5 days of increase. As a result if you dose them for an extra two days the extended period at full dosage will have no appreciable I'll effects.... Thus not really overdosing at all. Keep all fish in the medication until all dish have had full dosage for at least the intended time. 
You did very well with your Berra but I cannot honestly recall a single incident where CPR has worked on a fish... Sometimes these natural accidents do just happen and it's never at a good time!!!! 
Well done anyway. I'm always here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Oh, Rocky. . . I'm so sorry, dear. I know how much that little girl meant to you. . . You worked so hard to save her. . . and this? Gah, I'm just so sad for you . . .I wish it could have come out better for her.  Try to take comfort in the wonderful news that the rest of the tank seems to be on the mend, and doing well. Hopefully this nightmare will be over soon, and you can enjoy your fish again, instead of fretting and doing head-counts every time you look into their world. . . Hang in there, girl - this is almost all behind you.


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## RackinRocky (Feb 11, 2012)

Thank you, Snappy! Now I don't have to worry about overdosing anyone! I know you are always supposed to finish ALL antibiotics, in case resistance develops, so now I'll be able to finish it with everyone. 

As if all this wasn't bad enough, I am now seeing little white spots on three of my fish in the 55 gallon tank. Can you believe it? They are all white or light colored, but I see a few spots in their tails. I keep reading to keep the tank on the cooler side for Columnaris, but with ich, I've gotten rid of it by raising the temp and adding salt. So now what do I do? I am ready to tear my hair out--its just one thing after another. No one is acting sick, but I don't want to wait until they are covered in ich either. Plus there are lots of plants in that tank to complicate things, as far as temp and salt go. Holy Moly, this is all almost too much. If I'm not positive they have ich, am I safe to wait a couple of days and see if the spots increase?


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

If it isn't one thing. . . *sigh*

It does often happen that fish that are fighting a disease will come down with secondary illnesses due to their wakened systems, and the stress they're under. . . only. . . I was really hoping you'd get by without ANYTHING else to worry about.









I think, as a general rule, you don't want to treat anything until you're sure of what it is - especially with fish that are already under a lot of stress, as yours have been. But I know this isn't true in all cases. . . I'm just not positive which those might be! 

Don't worry about the plants. They might not appreciate the salination or increase in temperature, but they'll probably come through just fine - maybe a bit worse for wear, but they'll rebound. Plants are amazing. I've recently seen a few people go through ich treatment in heavily planted tanks with little or no repercussion in the greenery department (not saying that it can't happen). And even if you'd be sentencing them to death, I'd say it's better to kill the plants to save the fish any time...

I'm nowhere near qualified to offer any advice here, except to say wait and see what The Snaps has to say. He'll know just what to do, but we're all on different time-zones. . .I'm sure he will be back to check on you when it's morning there, but just to try to help him out. . .since you'll likely be in bed when he's around. . .and hopefully YOU'LL have a chance to stop by before he does, lol!

Can you clarify the situation as it stands now?

Which fish are in which tanks with which meds and in what conditions at this point?
You've seen Ich before, how sure (or not) are you that this is the same? 
White spots - on which fish (species), specifically? 
Any chance of a photo?
What temperatures are the tanks right now, and what are the current parameters (ammonia, nitrate, nitrite?)
When were the last water changes through all of this?
. . . and whatever else you can think of that might help out!

Hang in there, sweetie! This too soon shall pass. . .you're handling all this like a pro! You can ask Snappy - I'd be falling apart by now! If you need to vent, feel free to send me a PM. It sometimes helps. . .

*MORE HUGS*


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## RackinRocky (Feb 11, 2012)

Ches, you lifesaver, you! I feel like I'm just going to lose it with all this worry. When I had ich before it was in my 20 gallon, and the plants melted, and made a horrible mess. The turkey baster didn't cut it when trying to get it all up, and I'm STILL the mess up. I'm afraid of that happening again, as that will make the water quality bad! Then my fish will be even more vulnerable to getting something again. So that's mainly why I was worried about the plants.

I have 6 fish left in the 55 gallon. A platy, 3 balloon Mollies, an albino cory and the Bolivian Ram.
I have 5 fish in the 10 gallon hospital tank. 2 female bettas, 2 platies, 1 balloon Molly.

The 55 gallon is not currently being treated with any meds, as all the fish in there are showing no symptoms (other than the few white tail spots I just discovered yesterday).
The 10 gallon tank is being treated with Maracyn and Maracyn Two.

And yes, this does look like the ich I had before. Only I can't see any body spots, but its so much harder on lighter colored fish, and the fish affected are either white or light calicos, so I'm only seeing tail spots at the moment. One platy and two mollies have the white spots. There are only maybe 3 spots on each fish's tail.

Temps on both tanks are right around 75. I don't want them too cold, but I know the temp should be lower when fighting Columnaris. (I normally keep them around 79-80). The 55 gallon has Ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrates 15.

Just checked the 10 gallon today, and the meds have apparently killed off the BB. Ammonia, nitrites and Nitrates are all zero! And this tank was in the last stages of cycling when I started the meds, so I know its the meds that did it. I check with the API liquid test kit at least 2-3 times a week on all tanks.

As for water changes, they are done weekly (25-30%) unless I get a high reading of anything, then I do it sooner. But they are done religiously.

And yes, I'm falling apart, literally. I feel I'm becoming paranoid, constantly checking the fish for anything at all that looks unusual. The fish in the10 gallon (the bettas, actually) are acting very irritated and flashing. I feel so bad for them, as they have a few more days of treatment to go, and then I have to decide if I should put them through another course of treatment! Oh Lordy. . .


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## Snappyarcher (Aug 6, 2011)

Hokey dokey!!!!! Welll here we go..... Chesh is very right , secondary infections are usually and often seen after more serious afflictions like columnaris, so dont worry it not your fault.... the fact is that you never actually get rid of Ich...it lies dormant in the water and can show absolutely no symptoms on the fish until they become weakened by trauma like this, then it manifests its self with a vengence. The give away was the plants, you say your tank is well planted....and thats probably where the ich came in to the tank in the first place. 
Ok so now to the care plan..... I have two points:
1. treat the ich as you have done in the past, with the salt and temperature raising, along side the maracyn and maracyn 2 .... Maracyn is a stable med and not really reduced in efficacy by temperatures being higher.... the reason you normally lower the temps for columnaris is to slow down is reproduction and thus allow the meds to get a grip on the situation, this has now been done so now you can re-adjust the temperatures to treat for ich and add the salt etc. I hasten to add this will NOT likely kill of the Ich completely, but it will stave it off enough to allow you to deal with the columnaris first..... then we will deal with the Ich properly.
The Bettas that are struggling, keep a close eye on them, you dont know how old they are and they are a short lived fish so just keep a close eye on them but dont be disheartened if they do go. That rings me on to....
2. Im not sure how long you have kept fish but do expect some deaths.... its inevitable. The fact is you are trying to play god with both plants and fish, and we simple don't have the skills of the good Lord himself. Don't panic about the tank.... they do have a habit of finding a way of balancing themselves somehow, and often its not what you do that counts its what you don't do! So the general plan is this:
1. Treat fro columnaris
2. Treat Properly for Ich
3. sit back and watch the tank settle down again properly..

Oh one thig id suggest.... drop back to 10% water changes weekly instead of the 30%.... its a bit more gentle and for the fish you have still well within limits of safety.

Hope this helps.


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

So you want her to go ahead and treat both tanks for Ich? Both the medicated 10g _and_ the non-medicated 55?
Is the normal salt dosage going to be safe for her Cory?

Thanks, Snappy! *luffs*


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## Snappyarcher (Aug 6, 2011)

Yup on both counts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RackinRocky (Feb 11, 2012)

OMG, treating the 55 with Maracyn and Maracyn Two will cost a FORTUNE! I am treating the fish that act sick in the 10 gallon, and the ones that don't act or look sick are in the 55, just to clarify that. Can I just treat for ich in the 55? I'm glad the temp can go back up now, as I feel the fish were uncomfortable in such a low temp.

So Snapper, do i HAVE to treat with Maracyn and Maracyn Two in the 55, where I have the fish that show no signs of disease? And will 1 tsp. salt in the 55 per gallon be all right?


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

It's the wrong side of the clock where Snapz is, so I'll clarify for him - The way *I* read that was that he wants you to treat BOTH tanks for Ich, and continue treating the 10g for Columnaris, 

You shouldn't have to treat the 55, where the fish seem to be doing well - I doubt he'd tell you to do that, anyway - it isn't his style. I asked for clarification in my last post, and he said to go ahead and use the dosage on the package - that should be okay.

Since the fish in the 10g have already gotten half-way through treatment, the sickness shouldn't be spreading anymore, so on both counts you ought to be fine with upping the temps. I *think* 86 is the temperature you're aiming for while treating Ich (double check me on this, please). And the meds you're using for columnaris will not be effected by the raised temperature nor the salt, and so are safe to use together - in the 10g - only. 

But like he said, these poor little guys are under stress on top of stress on top of stress. Hopefully you get through with no more deaths, but there is still the possibility. *hugs* You're ALMOST THROUGH! And from now on I know you'll QT new fish AND plants for a month before adding them. It's a mistake we all have made, one of those 'it'll never happen to me' lessons, unfortunately. 

Just to let you know, in case you don't - raising the temperature reduces the amount of oxygen available in the water, so if you don't have bubblers in these tanks already, it's a good idea to go ahead and pop them in to help the finned ones breathe a bit more easily!

I'm sure he'll be by when it's daylight on his side of the world to check in  

You're almost done. . . just hang in there a little bit longer, and this will all go away and you can start rebuilding!!!


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## RackinRocky (Feb 11, 2012)

The more I thought about it, the more I realized he meant not to treat the 55 for Columnaris. Relief! I've got the tanks up to 84 degrees and added salt to both, so here's to hoping it works. I still don't know if I'll do a second course of treatment on the bettas, as they are not liking this at all, and I'm really afraid of pushing it too much, so when this course is done (today, actually), I'll put them back in the 55 tomorrow and just see how they do. I just don't feel its safe to do another course. I did the water change today, and they looked so relieved and like they felt they could breathe again!

Will this never end? You won't believe this, but today, I have a platy that is in the hospital tank that looks like a pinecone. I went to net her, and could see from above. I have read this is not good, and is a sign she has kidney damage (I'm guessing from the Columnaris) and won't make it in the long run. I treated her to begin with because she was listless and not hanging out with the others, and not eating well. So I guess I know why now. I feel so bad for her. She never got any white spots on her lip or elsewhere, so I guess it manifested itself internally. I feel very bad that there is nothing I can do for her. So its just one thing after another. Thanks so much for double checking with Snap.


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## LyzzaRyzz (Dec 18, 2011)

Oh no! Not another one!

Ugh, doesn't it almost feel like you should just start over?

I really hope she doesn't pass, and that your fishums come through this alright...

Wouldn't it be better if we could get them to take robitussin and call it a day? Lol


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Poor little Platy!  Hopefully he will be the last little guy to have a problem in all of this. . .
Here is some info I've found about temperature treating for Ich:


> "It has been found that Ich does not infect new fish at 29.4°C/85°F (Johnson, 1976), stops reproducing at 30°C/86°F (Dr. Nick St. Erne, DVM, pers. comm.), and dies at 32°C/89.5°F (Meyer, 1984)"


I just wanted to double-check because you said your tank was up to 84, and everything I've read has agreed that 86 is the temperature you're trying to achieve when treating for this awful yuck. I'm not really a trustworthy source, but I've seen the number repeated time and time again. Snappy was traveling yesterday (I think) so hopefully will have a chance to come back and clarify for us again sometime today.


This will be done soon, and happy fish will abound!



Liza, lol on Robitussin. . . wouldn't that be nice? Take two tabs and call me in the morning. . . the plus side, the ONLY plus side, is how much one learns through a situation like this one. It's just a shame that the price is so high. . .


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## RackinRocky (Feb 11, 2012)

The bettas are back in the 55, and I'm working the temp up to 86. Makes me nervous--I know cories and platies are uncomfortable in that much heat, but its the only way to get rid of it, and I sure don't want to be using any more meds!

The platy in the hospital tank just lays there most of the time, no energy. She doesn't want to eat, and I think she's miserable. I wonder if I should euthanize her in the freezer? I really, really don't want to, but if she's not going to recover, why let her go through prolonged suffering?


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Aww, sweetie *wince* I'm sorry! That is a torturous decision if ever there was one, made even more so by all that she (and you) have just been through. Whatever you choose, I'm sure you'll do right by her.

And I know. . ._ none_ of them are comfortable right now - with or without the heat, really. You're in a bind. . . darned if you do, darned if you don't. All you can do is the best you can do. . . until this is over - and you're doing that already. . .

Keep on keepin' on. . .it _WON'T_ be much longer, now. . .


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## RackinRocky (Feb 11, 2012)

Well, now one of my balloon Mollies is acting weird. No spots or anything on her, and her mouth looks fine, but she's hiding under some plants, and she NEVER does that. So I have a feeling she's going to come down with it very soon. Maybe she's just resting, I don't know. I've just never had a Molly that would go off by herself. Right now she's in front with the others, but her fins are clamped. I think she was shimmying while she was hiding. I've just about had it. Every time I think its over, something else happens. I could hardly be any more discouraged.


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Take heart, dear. . . think of the ones that are still fighting and winning! Look at _THEM_, and *try* to take encouragement. . . I know how upsetting all of this is for you, but I don't want to see you lose sight of what you love about keeping fish in the first place. I'm so sorry. . . I wish I had something more to offer you. *hugs*


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## RackinRocky (Feb 11, 2012)

Good news--the balloon Molly isn't sick after all. She was just wanting to go to "bed," as it was 9pm, her bedtime, lol. She's acting perfectly fine today, up front with the rest and eating as only a balloon Molly can!

As for my platy, I just didn't have the heart to euthanize her and now I'm glad I didn't! She looked better this morning, and I saw that her "pinecone body" was not as spikey. There was definitely an improvement, plus she was a bit more active. So I did a 50% WC on her tank today, vac'd the gravel and added salt (1 tablespoon per 5 gallons). I noticed her looking at little bits of debris after the WC, as if hopeful it might be food. So I thawed her some bloodworms, and she ate three! I was just thrilled. After that, she has much more energy, and is no longer mostly sitting on the bottom, but actually swimming, something she hasn't done since she went into the hospital tank. She hadn't eaten in over a week, so I can't tell you how happy I am.

I don't want to get my hopes up though, as I've read that once they pinecone, they usually don't pull through. But maybe she can get a few more good months? Let's hope so. 

All the others are doing great, and no signs of sickness at all. So I still have 11 fish--something I never dreamed would happen. I thought for sure the whole tank would be wiped out. Thanks so much to you guys who were so helpful and especially for all your support, Ches! Oh, I have added half dose of salt in my 55 gallon, and will add the other half tomorrow so they don't get too shocked. (I'm using a tablespoon per 5 gallons). Don't want to use too much because of the bettas and cory. The ich spots are already disappearing. I couldn't be happier!


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

HAPPY POST - WONDERFUL NEWS!!!

I'm _SO_ happy that things are looking up over there!


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