# Long Fin White Cloud being nipped?



## Ongaku (Apr 13, 2012)

So I've had the weirdest thing happen... 

I got 3 Long fin White Clouds and I have them in a 20 Long with some baby angels - 2" big at max top to bottom and a couple of balloon molly - and one small albino long fin cory. I had them for a week then I started noticing (only) their tails getting nipped. Other than that they're perfectly fine, eating, healthy.

I dont know who the culprit is. My guess would be the other clouds because its ONLY them and nobody else. My male molly was overly aggressive with just ONE angel back a few months ago and I had to separate him, but he doesnt bother anyone else like he did that angel.

I watch my fish as closely as I can for aggression but what I cant see, I cant know - ie night time.

Are Long fin clouds extremely fin nippy? they seem to chase each other around like my danios. Should I get like 3 more to dilute the nipping - if its them? I'm tempted to shuffle fish around to my 29 gal to weed out the culprit :-? though I fear accidentally putting the culprit in with my guppies...


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## lakemalawifish (Nov 24, 2012)

My daughter works at a LFS and she said that LF White Cloud males will nip each other. Here's a link to pics of male/female (scroll down to find the pics)

Miscellaneous oddball fishes XI with pictures


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## Ongaku (Apr 13, 2012)

lakemalawifish said:


> My daughter works at a LFS and she said that LF White Cloud males will nip each other. Here's a link to pics of male/female (scroll down to find the pics)
> 
> Miscellaneous oddball fishes XI with pictures


 =x Ill def check when i get home. is there anything I can do to dissipate the nipping? 1 male and 2 female? 2 male 2 female? such a shame cause they have such nice fins.


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## lakemalawifish (Nov 24, 2012)

My guess is you have more males, or possibly all males. Unfortunately in this case the males have longer prettier fins I think. I would think a group of all females might work out better if the males are picking on each other.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

This is a shoaling fish, meaning it must be in a group. Some species work fine with 6 in the group, while others need more. Generally speaking, any species that tends to fin nip will sometimes be less inclined to do so in larger groups.

I note our profile recommends 8 for this species [the long fin variant is the same species as the White Cloud Mountain Minnow, so click the shaded name for the profile].

Another issue is looming here though, and that is the angelfish. This sedate fish is likely to be targeted eventually by the minnows. And the active swimming style of the minnows is not a good thing for the angelfish, so before getting more and aggravating the issue you might want to consider changes. I assume the angels are "growingh out" in this tank, but a 20g long is insufficient for them and the minnows no matter what, as the angelfish are developing. Better to make changes now before the trouble increases.

Byron.


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## Ongaku (Apr 13, 2012)

Yeh the angels are just in there as a interm thing as I'm building my custom stand. I havent noticed any nips on them, but they'll be out of there as soon as i get that stand done. As for the LF clouds I tried sexing them but good lord I couldnt tell the difference. All had triangular anal fins. Only difference I noticed was that some of the anal fins had a SLIGHT sharper point, but they're all so bright and all so nipped they're prolly all males. Its odd that only their tails are nipped =\ I can go back to the store but idk if they'll have any left let alone be able to identify AND catch a female - i can only hope =[

I didnt even know you guys had a profile section for the fish, only thought this was forums =)
I might rehome the guys as I dont think I can get any females. I', also a little surprised the males will fight even though there is nothing to fight over - though maybe one of them is a female =[?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Ongaku said:


> Yeh the angels are just in there as a interm thing as I'm building my custom stand. I havent noticed any nips on them, but they'll be out of there as soon as i get that stand done. As for the LF clouds I tried sexing them but good lord I couldnt tell the difference. All had triangular anal fins. Only difference I noticed was that some of the anal fins had a SLIGHT sharper point, but they're all so bright and all so nipped they're prolly all males. Its odd that only their tails are nipped =\ I can go back to the store but idk if they'll have any left let alone be able to identify AND catch a female - i can only hope =[
> 
> I didnt even know you guys had a profile section for the fish, only thought this was forums =)
> I might rehome the guys as I dont think I can get any females. I', also a little surprised the males will fight even though there is nothing to fight over - though maybe one of them is a female =[?


The regular WCMM is difficult to sex unless in spawning readiness; males are slimmer than females, and a bit more colourful. Females are the larger when at about the same age. I've no idea if this applies to the long-fin form, but I don't see why it wouldn't; it is the same species, just modified with longer fins.

Fin nipping in some species is just part of their normal behaviour. It is not at all related to sexes or spawning. Maintaining a larger group sometimes reduces the nipping, but sometimes not; fish can be independant. It is surprising how many "peaceful" species will actually fin nip when the environment becomes stressful, or sometimes if temptation becomes great as when sedate fish like angels are present. Neon tetra have been known to nip angels. But as I said, some species just have this built into their nature. We know things that can cause it to occur or increase, but when conditions are ideal the fact that some will and some won't is a bit of a mystery.

Byron.


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## Aurie (Jun 22, 2012)

I have regular white clouds.. I bought 6. I lucked out to get 3 males and 3 females. I know I have 1 breeding pair, 1 male has 2 females and the other male is absolutely clueless.. (don't ask, I think he's confused)

All of mine looked identical when I got them. Just like at the pet store (I got mine from LFS) but after they settled about 2 months later I noticed the females developed the belly and it is white at almost all times when the males belly's are smaller and the grey goes farther down. 

I hope this kinda bland discription helps. If you don't see any sort of "fat" then it's a male and females do NOT flare. I'd get 3 more and try to pick out some fat ones. The worst that happens is that she's full of eggs.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Nearly all schooling fishes will nip at each other when kept in too small of number's,too many of one sex,while establishing pecking order,or just for fun in my expierience.
Minimum number's suggested for species such as white cloud's, (many other's)are just that...minimum .
In the wild,these fish school ,or shoal in hundred's or thousand's ,for there is safety in number's and it makes it more difficult for predatory fish,bird's,to single out one fish.
As for Angelfish and white clouds in same tank,, I would submit that the Angelfish prefer warmer tropical temps than the white cloud's who prefer cooler water, with moderate to strong movement.
White cloud mountain minnows enjoy fast cool water that flow's in mountain stream's hence their name.
Angelfish are big old cichlid's that are wholly capable of taking care of smaller fishes that may be bothering them by attacking the fish thus causing damage,or outright killing the smaller fish and eating them.
I have kept Angelfish many times, with nearly every kind of tetra species, and it is the smaller fish, that have cause to worry once the Angelfish reaches adult size (around one year).
Larger bodied tetra species I have kept with angelfish are..Bleeding heart,Lemon,Columbian,Pristella's,Emperor,and Serpae.
All of these fishes gave the Angelfish a wide berth,and any nipping I observed was confined largely among the tetra's.
Smaller tetra's,guppies,and similar fish are often NFL( not for long) in a tank with Adult angelfish.
Folk's will tell you Discus are sedate fish as well, but they can, and do, deal with pest's (smaller fish,or each other) in very quick manner if and when they choose to.


What is greater cause for concern in my view with keeping fast moving fish with fish such as Angelfish or Discus,is the smaller fishes ability to quickly grab lion's share of food's offered which in turn,, lead's many to add perhap's too much food to the tank trying to see that all fish get their's, and thereby causing water to become too rich in organic waste.
This is much more stessful for fish than the antic's of smaller fishes darting about.IMHO


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