# Starting new 20 gallon freshwater aquarium



## pillar (Mar 31, 2009)

Hello,

I am a relative newbie to aquariums, though I had one when I was younger, I don't think I did it very well. I want to have another aquarium now and do everything right, so I have come to you, the fish forum community to help me out!

A friend has offered to give me a 20 gallon aquarium with a stand, I have accepted, and started shopping around for components. I have also done a great deal of research on cycling, and I think I understand it.

Specifically, I want to get some expert advice on the equipment I purchase and compatibility issues on the types of fish I plan to get.

First off the equipment I plan to order from #1 Big Al's Aquarium Supplies: Fish Tanks, Stands, Decorations, Filters, Lighting (I am Canadian, this website had the best prices I could find):

*Aquarium Pharmaceuticals (AP) Master test kit: $39.99 CAD
* Marineland Penguin 100B Power Filter, bio wheel: $21.99
*Big Als 50 watt heater: $10 
* Tetra Whisper 40 Air Pump: $23.99

Of course I will also be getting gravel, decorations etc.

The fish I am thinking about getting are:
*Guppies
*Angelfish (not sure if they will be compatible)
*Neon tetras
*Mollies

Overall I am looking ot have an interesting and active tank. Thanks in advance for all your help!


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## MBilyeu (Nov 25, 2008)

What is the air pump for? The pump can run quite a big airstone, and is probably too big for most air driven decorations.

As for your stocklist, all the fish are compatible. I would only suggest one angelfish, and depending on how many of the other types of fish you get, you may have to end up moving it out of that tank. This is a standard 20 gallon correct? An angelfish will not work in a 20 long.


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## pillar (Mar 31, 2009)

That pump was only $2 more than the Whisper 40...so I decided to go for it. Would it be too much for a bubble curtain? I like the look of those.

Something I read indicated that angelfish and guppies sometimes do not get along...is this true?


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## MBilyeu (Nov 25, 2008)

Oh...ok then...go for the bigger one!! You can always get an adjustment valve for a buck or two if you need to turn it down(but I think all the whispers come with one anyway).

As for guppies and angels, it will depend on your angel. Mine get along fine with the guppies that I have in there, but angels are cichlids and one thing we know about cichlids is that their personalities are not able to be chosen! You may get one that works with guppies(which I think most will), but you may also get one that doesn't. Your LFS will almost always take an angel that is not working in your tank, and probably give you a couple bucks for it too.


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## pillar (Mar 31, 2009)

As for decorations, I really like the natural looking things like logs and rocks, though I had problems with my last tank because the rock i choose altered the water chemistry. I like the rocks in your 10 gallon tank, would they work for me?

By the way, your tanks look spectacular!


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## pillar (Mar 31, 2009)

Also, I notice that you like to use 2 filters. Is this something I should consider?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

pillar said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am a relative newbie to aquariums, though I had one when I was younger, I don't think I did it very well. I want to have another aquarium now and do everything right, so I have come to you, the fish forum community to help me out!
> 
> ...


Personally I would not include angelfish in this setup. They are fairly sedate fish and do not appreciate active fish in their environment. They also prefer warmer temperatures than neons (significantly so). They will also when grown eat (or attempt to eat) smaller fish. Other lively fish sometimes nip their fins. And while angels can tolerate alkaline water, they prefer slightly acidic which would not suit guppies and certainly not mollies. Some aquarists add aquarium salt for mollies; this should never be done with angels. Internal problems can easily result from inadequate water. And lastly, angels should be kept in groups, they shoal in nature; and a 20g is not sufficient size for angels, imho.


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## pillar (Mar 31, 2009)

Thanks for your input! I am leaning towards not including angels, as I want this setup to be as 'by the book' as possible, and even the risk of them not being well suited it enough for me.

Do you think I need more filtration?


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## Fishin Pole (Feb 17, 2009)

its just my opinion, but i would go for a more wattage heater...........Probably a 100 watts instead of the 50.........Heater wont have to work as hard to mantain a constant temp


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Fishin Pole said:


> its just my opinion, but i would go for a more wattage heater...........Probably a 100 watts instead of the 50.........Heater wont have to work as hard to mantain a constant temp


Good point FP. Also, buy the best you can--they are more reliable and there is nothing much worse than losing a tank of fish because it overheats during one night or cools down.

I have no direct knowledge/experience with the filter you mention pillar, but I am a fan of less rather than more water movement. If you intend to have live plants, definitely you don't want strong currents. And the majority of fish prefer less water disturbance, except of course for those fish from fast flowing rivers and streams. Guppies originate from slow water in Central America, and mollys from brackish water (influenced by tidal variations) which also means not strong currents like a river. Mollys can tolerate some aquarium salt in their water, some keeps say this is mandatory, others not. No characin (excpet a rare few like the Pristella) can tolerate salt over the long term. I mention all of this because it is important to consider the needs of various fish before getting them, so you can design the aquarium to suit them (keeping them happy and healthy) and make sure you will not create trouble down the road.


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## pillar (Mar 31, 2009)

Thanks for all the advice. I had chosen the 50W heater because I read that it is a good idea to get a lower wattage than usually recommended, because then you will have a wider margin of error before it 'cooks' your fish.

As for the fish compatibility, I have decided to focus my tank around guppies. To that end, I would like to have at least 5 guppies, and then some other fish as companions. What types of fish go well with guppies?

Also, what is the best online dealer of aquarium supplies in Canada? I have heard mixed reviews of bigals but it has better selection and prices than any fish store here in St. John's. Thanks.


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## JohnnyD44 (Dec 5, 2008)

pillar said:


> Also, I notice that you like to use 2 filters. Is this something I should consider?


If you have the standard 20G Long tank....you do not need two filters. I have a 20G Long right now (well, being disassembled, ignore the pic) and I run one Penguin BioWheel 200....It's "over rated" for my tank, it can filter up to a 50 gallon tank.... but generally that is the goal anyways. 

You do not need to run two filters on a 20L, like byron said, it will be too much current. If you want to run two (2) Penguin 100's...it's the same filtration as a Penguin 200....so why not just upgrade to a Marineland Bio Wheel 200 if you feel you need more filtration????

If you are going with guppies prepare for A LOT of fry....they are live bearers, as are you mollies you were talking about earlier.

Check out drsfosterandsmith for supplies, they're very reasonable, but not sure if they ship to Canada...


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

pillar said:


> Thanks for all the advice. I had chosen the 50W heater because I read that it is a good idea to get a lower wattage than usually recommended, because then you will have a wider margin of error before it 'cooks' your fish.
> 
> As for the fish compatibility, I have decided to focus my tank around guppies. To that end, I would like to have at least 5 guppies, and then some other fish as companions. What types of fish go well with guppies?
> 
> Also, what is the best online dealer of aquarium supplies in Canada? I have heard mixed reviews of bigals but it has better selection and prices than any fish store here in St. John's. Thanks.


JohnnyD44 has given a suggestion for online, you can email them to see if they ship to Canada, prices would be more of course than their US lists. I've never used online, I have two Big Al's stores here and frankly bought all my equipment through one of them.

Re the guppy tankmates, obviously other livebearers would work, some corys for the bottom level, a small pleco maybe...some limitations with a 20g and remember, as Johnny correctly said, with livebearers you will quickly have hundreds and either have to cull them or let the others eat them... . In a smaller setup maybe look at various non-livebearers? Lots of South American tetras and corys can be housed together, or SE Asian fish like barbs, gouramis, loaches (not all together necessarily, just giving some fish suggestions). Egg layers will often spawn if water conditions are to their liking, but in community setups like mine the other fish eat the eggs the moment they are discharged, which is nutritious food, and it would be rare for any to survive; with livebearers the young fish are there from the start and given some hiding places will manage to survive which only increases your fish load very quickly.


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## Fishin Pole (Feb 17, 2009)

with a 50 watt heater it will constantly be heating up causing the life of the heater to be drastically shortened.........I have heard of more heaters quit working and your water cooling down than having a heater going wacky and raising your water temp.......With a more powerful heater, it will click on for a few minutes and run and then shut off......with an underpowered heater it will probably run all the time.........i would be more worried about a heater that runs all the time frying your fish


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## MBilyeu (Nov 25, 2008)

The reason that I run two filters on all my tanks is because I am constantly needing to have temporary holding tanks that are cycled. With two filters, I can take one off and put it on another tank that I just filled that day and be able to put a fish in right away. I actually have 7 tanks, but the three that are in my profile are the ones in my house. The others are usually used for breeding or quarantine, and I keep them in my garage. They are not pretty, so I don't take pictures of them:lol:.

As far as a heater goes, after looking at the Big Als canadian site, the best heater for the money that I could find was this one: http://www.bigalsonline.ca/BigAlsCA...aquariumpharmaceuticalsrenacaltoplight150watt

You will be able to put it horizontally underneath the filter intake to get best chance at making sure there are no dead spots for heat in your tank. Also I would recommend you get a glass thermometer(not a stick on) because they are more accurate, and you wont be able to trust the numbers on your heater. Something like this: http://www.bigalsonline.ca/BigAlsCA...axthermatempfloatingthermometerwithsuctioncup

I also really like Byrons idea of something like a dwarf gourami instead of an angel as a centerpiece fish. It will allow you more room for other fish.


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## MBilyeu (Nov 25, 2008)

As far as the rocks go, I always use granite and slate for rocks in all the tanks I have. Usually you can go to landscaping/gravel supply and get a coupe small rocks for practically free. You then get scalding hot water and pour over the rock while you scrub and dirt and grime that they have on them. The ones in my 10 gallon are actually part of some scrap granite that was used on the outside of the newest Microsoft buildings. Whatever you do, don't use limestone. It will keep your pH very high.


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## pillar (Mar 31, 2009)

So i went out to wal-mart today and the prices were pretty good so I picked up the following:
*Elite 20 Hush filter
*Tetra 100 watt submersible heater
*Air pump
*Thermometer
*gravel

Think this is good? I still have the receipt if not. Also I got a hagen mini test kit.

Thanks for all the tips, I have learned a lot.


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## MBilyeu (Nov 25, 2008)

Looks good to me. One more tip- try to place your thermometer in a corner away from your heater and filter, and also move it to a different corner every few weeks or so. The reason for this is to make sure that your tank is being heated evenly and you have water flow there. In a smaller tank like yours, you shouldn't have any problems like that, but it's just a precaution.


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## pillar (Mar 31, 2009)

Great! I also noticed that there are all sorts of cool varieties of Tetra at the pet store. I still want to have guppies in the tank, because I find them very cool, but to minimize the number of live bearers I will go with a cory and tetras besides, if they are compatible. 

The compatibility chart Freshwater Fish Compatibility Chart - Rate My Fish Tank says that guppies are sometime compatible with tetras...could someone please elaborate on this?

Thanks again!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

pillar said:


> Great! I also noticed that there are all sorts of cool varieties of Tetra at the pet store. I still want to have guppies in the tank, because I find them very cool, but to minimize the number of live bearers I will go with a cory and tetras besides, if they are compatible.
> 
> The compatibility chart Freshwater Fish Compatibility Chart - Rate My Fish Tank says that guppies are sometime compatible with tetras...could someone please elaborate on this?
> 
> Thanks again!


I glanced at the linked chart but I would only take that as a very rough guide. There is much more at stake than what any single chart can explain.

One important thing is water parameters, and a second is behaviour. On water, fish with differing water preferences do not make partticularly suitable tank companions. For example, African rift lake cichlids prefer water that is harder and more alkaline than other freshwater fish, pH at 8 or higher is fine. Livebearers are close to this, prefering water that is slightly hard and slightly alkaline, say pH 7-8. Most of the SA characins (tetras, pencilfish, hatchetfish) and most SE Asian fish prefer soft water that is slightly acidic. These are generalities, and some (but not all) fish are a bit adaptable, but not to extremes. There is a good biological reason.

Both salinity and pH affect how hard a fish's body must work to maintain its physiological equilibrium--that is, the complex chain of internal chemical reactions that keep the pH of its blood steady, its tissues fed, and its immune system functioning. When pH and/or salinity stray outside the ideal range for any given species, the fishes' bodies must work harder and use more energy to maintain this equilibrium [cited from an article in TFH Dec 2006]. Making the fish work this hard is stressful, leading to disease vulnerability and even death sometimes. Myself, i would never mix fish from the three categories I have mentioned in the preceding paragraph because their needs are too far apart for their well-being.

Second issue was behaviour. A group of small tetras that spend their day racing around a tank will be stressful to slower fish like angels and discus. Or a fish that constantly nips at other fish fins will be stressful. Behaviour must be considered when deciding what to put in an aquarium. After all, in nature the fish can escape such things but in a close aquarium they are trapped. Imagine how you would feel if you were locked in a room with something that annoyed you constantly, and had no escape. And this analogy is good on the water parameter issue also, as again the fish cannot escape the unsuitable water we provide it. While some fish seem able to adjust, how do you know what it is feeling inside? How many times on this forum do we read something like "my fish suddently got sick and died..." and sometimes it is simply because the fish could not withstand its environment in one way or another.


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## pillar (Mar 31, 2009)

That makes a lot of sense. With that in mind, are there any non-live bearing fish I can put with the Guppies? Or should I just forget about the guppies all together and go with Tetras and a dwarf gourami (if that works). I would like that setup as well.


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## pillar (Mar 31, 2009)

The chart also indicates that a Betta would work in this setup. What do you guys think of my 20 gal aquarium with the equipment above, various types of tetra, a Betta and a Dwarf Gourami? This setup sounds really good to me.

Speaking of Betta, I have a betta now in a 3 gallon cycled tank (i know that is small to be cycled but i have tested it regularly and it seems to be good) with an undergravel filter. Is there a way I can use that betta (Jovi) or his water to cycle this tank more quickly? Of course I do not want to cause any undue stress on Jovi. Thanks again!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

pillar said:


> The chart also indicates that a Betta would work in this setup. What do you guys think of my 20 gal aquarium with the equipment above, various types of tetra, a Betta and a Dwarf Gourami? This setup sounds really good to me.
> 
> Speaking of Betta, I have a betta now in a 3 gallon cycled tank (i know that is small to be cycled but i have tested it regularly and it seems to be good) with an undergravel filter. Is there a way I can use that betta (Jovi) or his water to cycle this tank more quickly? Of course I do not want to cause any undue stress on Jovi. Thanks again!


Two posts here, first was:
That makes a lot of sense. With that in mind, are there any non-live bearing fish I can put with the Guppies? Or should I just forget about the guppies all together and go with Tetras and a dwarf gourami (if that works). I would like that setup as well.

The livebearers come from Central America and Mexico, and Carribean islands. There are (I would assume) non-livebearers from this region, but you know, I've never come across them. Others who know these locales/fish better than I do will probably have some suggestions. SA tetras and SE Asian fish will do nicely together because their water requirements are (in most cases) similar if not identical, soft and acidic. Shoaling fish from SE Asia are not as many as SA but would include rasbora: the familiar Harlequin (Rasbora heteromorpha or Trigonostigma rasbora) and the similarly-patterned and coloured rasbora Trigonostigma espei, the pygmy Rasbora maculata, Rasbora trilineata...the list is almost endless. I've attached some photos below for interest.

To the second post, I have reaqd from others about Betta being targets or being territorial, not sure how this goes with gouramis, so will leave this question to others with more knowledge.

As for cycling, I would not subject the betta to a new tank to cycle it. And the water is all but useless as there is little and more likely no bacteria in it (the bacteria colonize surfaces), it would be more useful to move the gravel into the new tank. But before you consider that--I would leave Jovi comfortable in his present home and cycle the new tank on its own. Using a biological product like "Cycle" significantly eases the stress on fish when cycling a tank (use only fairly hardy fish, nothing delicate) and you can cycle a tank with fish food (no fish, just put flake food in the tank as if you were feeding the tank inhabitants and it will start the cycle). 

Not that I'm suggesting you do it, but if you were to move gravel or a filter to cycle a new tank remember that for the bacteria in it to continue to live they must have a source of food (ammonia for nitrosomonas bacteria, nitrite for nitrobacter bacteria) sufficient for their numbers or they will quickly die off. This would result in no bacteria and the tank would still have to be cycled. Cycling is a tedious process--waiting 2-8 weeks before being able to start adding those fish you want--but it is necessary.


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## pillar (Mar 31, 2009)

Thanks for the info!

I have the aquarium cycling now as per directions here: Tropical Fish Centre - Fishless Cycling Revisited. I decided to try fishless cycling because due to my research it happens faster, and it reduces the risk of fish loss, and I feel a great deal of guilt when my actions hurt a fish.

I used the recommended dose of cycle and a decoration from Jovi's tank as my source of bacteria, and I will monitor the water parameters closely until the cycle is complete.

I am currently reading about Bettas and Gouramis, and they seem to be fine together most of the time. My plan is to establish the tank, add Jovi to it then get another betta once Jovi has (hopefully) been accepted by his new friends. This way I can guarentee that Jovi will have a good home, and my new Betta will too! If the Gourami doesn't like it I will abort the plan. I also plan to put one tetra in Jovi's tank to maintain the nitrifying bacteria.

Please let me know if this is a good plan! Thanks again!


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## pillar (Mar 31, 2009)

Also, the tap water here is slightly basic (pH 7.6) and what I interpret as soft (one drop changes color in the hardness test). My research indicates that tetra and gourami require more acidic water, so would I need to take action to alter the water pH?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

pillar said:


> Also, the tap water here is slightly basic (pH 7.6) and what I interpret as soft (one drop changes color in the hardness test). My research indicates that tetra and gourami require more acidic water, so would I need to take action to alter the water pH?


Some fish are more adaptable (with no "obvious" problems) than others. I would not try cardinal tetras in a pH of 7.5, although if the water is very soft it might work. Harder water can cause calcium deposits internally, leading to stress and usually death.

If you decide to alter the pH in your aquarium, do it with peat in the filter. Chemicals can sometimes cause fluctuations in the pH where it keeps going down and back up, depending upon the buffering capability of the water. I do not recommend altering pH with any chemicals. Aside from peat, using a RO system works; you would mix a bit of normal water with the RO treated water as you need to have some mineral content or the water is too sterile for fish (and plants). I'm lucky in having water out of the tap that is soft and slightly acidic at 6.8, and the biological actions in my two present aquaria keep the pH around 6.5 constantly (with the normal diurnal variation it goes from 6.4 to 6.6 and back every 24 hours, and this is natural and OK). In fact, I have a very small nylon bag of dolomite in both filter chambers to ensure the pH does not fall and in 12+ years this has never failed me.

A quick comment on getting a second betta--I understand this doesn't always work due to aggression. I will just mention this, and leave it to those with betta experience to explain, or correct me.


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## pillar (Mar 31, 2009)

Update: Its actually 3 drops that changes the color, I was confusing two different tests. According to the info that came with the test kit, that is still considered soft.

Just to be clear, the general hardness and Carbonate hardness are 30ppm and 40 ppm respectively.

So from this, it seems that the water is pretty soft, and ok for tetras, but the pH is still an issue. I have noticed that a lot of fish stores around here have driftwood in their aquariums, possibly to combat the high pH of the local water. Might I try the same?

Also, about the peat. Is this something I should buy at a fish store, or can I just pull some out of the ground? Near my house there is a large bog.

Thanks again!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

pillar said:


> Update: Its actually 3 drops that changes the color, I was confusing two different tests. According to the info that came with the test kit, that is still considered soft.
> 
> Just to be clear, the general hardness and Carbonate hardness are 30ppm and 40 ppm respectively.
> 
> ...


Bogwood when new will leech tannin into the water (turns it slightly yellowish-brownish, fine for the fish but not nice to look at for some aquarists) but once the initial period is over this dissipates and the tannic release is very slow. It does help to lower pH and hardness, but unless you had tons of it in the tank, or depending upon the type of wood, it would probably not be that significant.

I've read that peat collected from bogs can be used, if treated to remove critters, and I'm sure others on this forum have experience with this so I'll leave it to them to explain for you.


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## pillar (Mar 31, 2009)

Well I really like the look of wood anyway, so I think I will get a big hunk of it for the tank. If that doesn't work I will research using peat in the filter.

I have also read that you should soak the wood in aquarium water before putting it in the tank, which is no problem. It will also be a good opportunity to see how it affects the water chemistry.

Thanks!


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