# "Dirted" Tank



## PonyMan (Jan 13, 2012)

Anyone running a dirted tank? If so, how do you like it? Pros/Cons? Any problems etc?? I'm _thinking_ about it, that's all at this point. 

Steve


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Can't remember if I've welcomed you to the forum previously, but a second welcome won't hurt, so...welcome.:-D

I assume you are meaning a dirt substrate planted tank? I'll wait for confirmation before launching into it.

Byron.


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## PonyMan (Jan 13, 2012)

Yes Byron, to both, the warm welcome and to the dirted substrate. The idea is to add about an inch of "organic" miracle grow potting soil, NOT the other fertilized kind, and add an inch or so of gravel on top. I've looked into it extensively (dustinsfishtank etc) but am looking for others who may have any experience with it. 

Steve


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

PonyMan said:


> Yes Byron, to both, the warm welcome and to the dirted substrate. The idea is to add about an inch of "organic" miracle grow potting soil, NOT the other fertilized kind, and add an inch or so of gravel on top. I've looked into it extensively (dustinsfishtank etc) but am looking for others who may have any experience with it.
> 
> Steve


Steve I have Miracle grow organic choice potting mix in my tanks. Its about 1 1/2" and has about the same thickness of sand covering it.
What exactly are you wanting to know? I am still learning about soil substrates but will answer any questions I can.


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## PonyMan (Jan 13, 2012)

Perfect Boredomb bc one of my concerns was using a sand substrate over the dirt instead of gravel! How does it do? Is it hard to clean etc? Do the plants grow well through the sand substrate? Can you explain cleaning process? Is it basically the same as just having a gravel bedded tank?

Steve


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

I have two dirted tanks using just dirt I dug up from outside. One has a gravel cap and the other has a sand cap. Sand one did amazingly well for about 8 months till I moved, then it had some weird issues I'm still not sure what. It seems to be improving itself lately. I also have a fish back in it doing well again. Gravel capped one I have been having issues growing stargrass in and I am not sure why since I grow this plant in all my other tanks. I like the sand cap much better then the gravel cap. You don't clean either so I am kinda loss on your question there.


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## PonyMan (Jan 13, 2012)

you don't have to clean the bottom of fish and food waste in a sanded over dirted tank??


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## bigfish93 (Jul 7, 2009)

PonyMan said:


> you don't have to clean the bottom of fish and food waste in a sanded over dirted tank??


In a planted tank, the answer to that question most of the time is no. The reason is becasue the fish waste and food decompose and give off CO2. The plants then use the boken down organics as fertilizers. As long as you don't over feed and your tank isn't to over stocked, then all of the organics will work themselves down into the substrate and get used by the plants.


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

They may give off some CO2, but I doubt much. Most fish food gets broken down into simple components, ammonia, phosophates, and other things like that. 

You can brush a syphon over the top of the sand to pick up stuff if you want, but I normally don't even do this except like once a month.


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## PonyMan (Jan 13, 2012)

OK, thanks guys. I'm considering it still but don't know for sure just yet.


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## Stonesy (Dec 29, 2011)

*The subject of dirted tanks*

I'm very interested in this subject. I've never heard of this form of substrate before. Miracle Grow is safe? Is it because it's sterilized? And I was discouraged when I wanted to use sand, told by the LFS that it would ruin my filter mechanics. At some point I'll be moving and would like to have knowledge of this, sounds great for the well planted tank. I do have a well planted tank...two of them and both are doing fabulous. I just like the idea of plants in a soil. The fertilizer for plants is OK for fish? Just curious, for now.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Stonesy said:


> I'm very interested in this subject. I've never heard of this form of substrate before. Miracle Grow is safe? Is it because it's sterilized? And I was discouraged when I wanted to use sand, told by the LFS that it would ruin my filter mechanics. At some point I'll be moving and would like to have knowledge of this, sounds great for the well planted tank. I do have a well planted tank...two of them and both are doing fabulous. I just like the idea of plants in a soil. The fertilizer for plants is OK for fish? Just curious, for now.


I've kept out of this thread because the OP asked specifics and other members have experience and could better respond. But now that you have asked specifically, I am going to mention a couple issues with this method so you can best decide for yourself. Soil is without question the more involved type of substrate and there are risks that do not come with other substrates.

First consideration is fish; any fish that actively digs in the substrate is not advisable in a tank with a soil substrate. The muddy water will not hurt the fish, but it will be unsightly and constantly so. Small substrate fish like corys are usually OK with a sand overlay as they generally do not dig deep enough, but loaches and larger catfish will. My loaches and pleco tunnel and this would be disastrous with soil.



Soil can cause water quality issues. Most acknowledged planted tank sources using soil recommend running the tank for a few months with no fish to allow things to fully stabilize. Diana Walstad, a microbiologist and one of the principal proponents of using soil, mentions these issues [taken from her article in TFH, November 2009]:

soil can becomes anaerobic much faster than a pure gravel substrate, inhibiting plant growth and producing toxic compounds to fish;
soils will pull oxygen out of the water especially during the first 2-8 weeks;
the initial soil chaos will flood the water with nutrients that can stimulate algal growth, and this can inhibit plant growth, creating a vicious cycle, killing plants and making the soil even more anaerobic.
You asked about plant fertilizers being safe for fish, by which I assume you are referring to any fertilizer in the packaged soil: Diana recommends an organic potting soil as the best soil; inorganic soils may contain chemical fertilizers which will do even more harm. Soil depth should be no more than one inch. The gravel top layer should be an inch; sand less than an inch in depth. These are added after the plants are planted.

Nutrients are cited by most soil-substrate advocates as the benefit, but this is a bit misleading. Initially depending upon the makeup of the soil there will be nutrients, and the organic matter in it will produce more CO2 than in a newly-setup tank with just sand or gravel. Down the road there is no benefit to soil; nutrients will become exhausted just as they do in your garden. And CO2 production will occur from organics in the substrate no matter what it is comprised of, which is why we don't clean it. Nutrients in the aquarium as in nature only come from the water. The water percolates through the substrate bringing nutrients. Any substrate will achieve this. Your existing planted tanks are doing so, or they wouldn't be "fabulous." As are mine, check the photos under "Aquariums" below my name on the left.

There are many methods to set up a planted tank, and all of them will work. Some carry more issues than others, and they largely depend upon what the aquarist wants for the end result. It is your decision, but in your case from what you have written, I would venture to say you would see no benefit, but may see quite the opposite.

Byron.


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## PonyMan (Jan 13, 2012)

>>I've kept out of this thread because the OP asked specifics and other members have experience and could better respond.<<

No, no Byron. By all means pipe in! This is what I was looking for..."other" opinions about the subject. I should have maybe been a little more specific.

>>Down the road there is no benefit to soil; nutrients will become exhausted just as they do in your garden.<<

This makes perfect sense to me. Just like a potted plant on your kitchen table. Sooner or later the soil its' in will run dry of its' nutrients. I don't want to have to go back and "re-dirt" for sure, not even 10yrs down the road! 

Can you explain how, I mean exactly how, your best planted tank is set up Byron? Substrate type, depth etc? I'm wanting to set the 55G up planted, just a nicely planted soothing tank to relax and enjoy viewing. I could achieve this with plastic plants etc but am really interested in the beneficial factors of live plants.

Steve


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## Stonesy (Dec 29, 2011)

Thank you Byron, I agree with you. I would not benefit from delving into a soil substrate! at any time,:lol: I think it's a very interestig subject, a little over my experience level though.

Stonesy


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

PonyMan said:


> >>I've kept out of this thread because the OP asked specifics and other members have experience and could better respond.<<
> 
> No, no Byron. By all means pipe in! This is what I was looking for..."other" opinions about the subject. I should have maybe been a little more specific.
> 
> ...


In my 20 years I have I think tried/used all substrate types except for soil. I've had gravel-only tanks, gravel with a layer of laterite under it, sand-only tanks, and an enriched substrate (Seachem's Flourite). I supposed another I've never used is kitty litter, but when that fad came in I could not see any benefit, and few if any now recommend this so I assume it was not much to write home about.:lol:

If you've viewed my tank photos you'll probably agree that the plants look healthy in all of them. There are 3 different substrates among those. The 115g, 33g and 10g are playsand, the 20g and 90g are fine gravel [one specifically is slightly calcareous], and the 70g is Flourite. There are some identical plant species within all of these, namely Echinodorus (swords) and/or Hellanthium (pygmy chain swords, two species) that are substrate rooted. And light is identical spectrum. So this provides a reasonably good criteria for observing the difference due to substrate. And frankly, I see none.

I have a major issue aside from this, and that is my water. It is very soft, out of the tap the GH and KH are probably zero or at most less than 1 d. This is causing me issues with calcium deficiency primarily, but also magnesium and potassium deficiencies. These nutrients are included in Flourish and Flourite and Flourish Tabs, but minimally because Seachem naturally assume most users will have medium hard water which contains sufficient calcium and magnesium, and maybe some potassium. I mention this because this is the only major growth issue and it is fairly recent [I won't go into the details of how I was solving it, or am doing now].

The gravel substrate is 3 inches depth overall. The sand is 1.5 inches in the 33g, and 2 inches in the 115g, built up a bit in the back for the larger swords. From setup I use Flourish Comprehensive liquid once a week. And fish go in on day one so there is some initial CO2 and more as the organics accumulate in the substrate over the first weeks. I don't touch the substrates. I have Flourish Tabs next to the large swords in the 90g and 115g and they have helped, in addition to once a week dose of Flourish Comprehensive. The same swords and esp pygmy chain in the 70g with Flourite substrate are showing identical calcium and potassium deficiencies as in the other tanks, so this is not substrate-related.

Light is the most critical factor, and as I firmly believe in minimal lighting for the sake of the fish, I have plants that manage under that. Less light means less nutrients required.

I hope I've managed to respond to your question, but feel free to ask further.

Byron.


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

My soil tanks have never had any more issues then a regular planted tank. Anaerobic soil happens, I've never had issues with it being there other then slightly hindered plant growth. My one soil/sand tank has some issues but I sure those never would of happened if I hadn't moved the tank and disrupted its established balance. I guess it makes up for the tank being basically algae free till it was over a year old. 

I've never used a bagged soil though so I have no idea how that relates. 

This was my first soil tank, which did amazing until I moved it. The move disrupted its balance a lot(same with my non-soil tanks, but worse in this one). Its finally recovering and some plants did not make the switch. It was fishless for a couple months due to its issues the fish were having, shrimp were fine. A lonely 6 week old rainbow fry has been living in it for 2-3 weeks and is growing fast.


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## PonyMan (Jan 13, 2012)

>> I've had gravel-only tanks, gravel with a layer of laterite under it, sand-only tanks, and an enriched substrate (Seachem's Flourite). <<


So out of the gravel and the sand which would you say is better IYO Byron, if one can indeed be better than the other?


P.S. I have to say, this is a great forum! There are MANY out there that there's no participation and they are just simply dead. I have always been a "forum oriented" guy when it comes to any of my interests (and man do I have some varied interests! LOL). There is so much to be learned from others all over the world through forums like these! Thanks again for allowing me to be a part of this one! 

Steve


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

At the risk of disqualifying this (my) post, I must admit that I do not have a soil ('dirt') substrate tank. 
However, I have studied it some. Oh, and I have managed a 3000 sq. ft. organic garden for many years and made tons of compost and vermicompost (composting with redworms).
I think some of the comments that have been made are not quite accurate.

Growing plants in sterile sand using chemical fertilizer seems quite like hydroponics to me while the sand capped soil substrate seems more like an organic (biotope like) approach. I'd also challenge that the natural substrates of most streams, lakes, ponds, ditches etc. are more often soil and muck, rather than sand based.
Decaying plant and fish waste along with uneaten food break down in the upper substrate layers to feed the soil which feeds plants.

I think the real secret to success with a soil substrate in a fish tank is to have organic topsoil where the organic material is fully decomposed as you really don't want decomposition deep in the substrate. Mineralized top soil has been used very successfully.

Depth is another contention I have. Many suggest 1" of soil and 1" of sand (give or take). I can't imagine growing plants in 2" of "soil". A total depth of 4"+ (give or take) would seem more appropriate. 
Dustin of FishtankTV has very deep soil substrates, but his focus is plants more than fish.

AD


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

PonyMan said:


> >> I've had gravel-only tanks, gravel with a layer of laterite under it, sand-only tanks, and an enriched substrate (Seachem's Flourite). <<
> 
> 
> So out of the gravel and the sand which would you say is better IYO Byron, if one can indeed be better than the other?
> ...


You are quite right; there are a great many knowledgeable aquarists on this site. And while we may differ on our methods, we do so from the basis of our individual experience and research. And that is of great value to all of us.

To your question, the answer to which takes some thought, since it depends upon what you or I might mean by "better." 

With respect to the plants, they will grow healthy and well in either sand or fine gravel. Provided the light is sufficient (intensity and duration) and balanced with the 17 necessary nutrients in the water column. [On this point I respectfully disagree with Ms. Walstad, who has more than once written that you cannot have a successful planted tank with plain gravel or sand; my 20-year experience and that of many others certainly contradicts this.]

With respect to fish--and I always put the fish first, my plants are secondary--some substrate fish will be better off with sand. There are upper fish that are substrate sifters in feeding, and sand would be more natural for these too.

Then there is the biology of the aquarium. And here there are some important issues. Large gravel such as true pea gravel is not recommended for planted tanks. Some plants do have difficult anchoring in this [I tried it once]. More importantly, the large size means that water will flow through it too quickly, removing nutrients from the roots. Bacteria also have a more difficult time. Fine gravel (1-2 mm grain) is said by many sources to be the best planted tank substrate. The issue usually mentioned with respect to sand is compaction. But this is not a bad thing provided it is not widespread. You can read more on this here:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-articles/bacteria-freshwater-aquarium-74891/

I have switched 3 of my tanks, and intend to do a fourth next month, from gravel to playsand. I guess that says which I prefer.

Byron.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

A quick comment on AD's mention of substrates in the natural habitats. The majority of streams in Amazonia have a sand substrate. There are some with gravel and rock, and some with solid rock. Few contain any aquatic plants. But even those that do, such as the Rio *****, is sand, which can be replicated with playsand.

The plants we use in our aquaria that I refer to as substrate-rooted are often amphibious bog plants. These grow emersed half the year on the forest floor, which I understand is often thick clay or sand or a mix. I believe soil or dirt as we are using it here does not occur in any appreciable quantity, if at all. The organics are very prevalent from decaying plant and animal life, and in that environment breaks down rapidly and provides the nutrients to sustain the entire forest. The crypts in SE Asia grow in iron-rich clay. Vallisneria is a true aquatic plant, and it grows abundantly in the sand substrate in Lake Malawi.

Trying too closely to replicate a natural habitat with respect to substrate can be more trouble than good. Sometimes we have to make compromises to preserve the biological stability.


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

Steve sorry I haven't replied till now I have been haven problems and they just keep getting worse (non fish related btw). It looks like you are getting the info you were wanting. I will just throw this little bit in. 
When I first did my soil substrate and went with MGOCPM I was told to start off the tank planted and ready to go for fish. Let it run for 2 weeks or so testing the water every other day. By day 10 if there was going to be a problem you would see it then usually but not alway. After letting it run for 2 weeks I never saw a spike in Ammonia or nitrites. Nitrate went up but stayed at 10 ppm. Its still holding there. 
Also I found out that I am still having to use root tablets and Flourish comprehensive (1x week for that)
If you decide to go this way that's the best info I can give you.


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

Byron said:


> A quick comment on AD's mention of substrates in the natural habitats. The majority of streams in Amazonia have a sand substrate. There are some with gravel and rock, and some with solid rock. Few contain any aquatic plants. But even those that do, such as the Rio *****, is sand, which can be replicated with playsand.
> 
> The plants we use in our aquaria that I refer to as substrate-rooted are often amphibious bog plants. These grow emersed half the year on the forest floor, which I understand is often thick clay or sand or a mix. I believe soil or dirt as we are using it here does not occur in any appreciable quantity, if at all. The organics are very prevalent from decaying plant and animal life, and in that environment breaks down rapidly and provides the nutrients to sustain the entire forest. The crypts in SE Asia grow in iron-rich clay. Vallisneria is a true aquatic plant, and it grows abundantly in the sand substrate in Lake Malawi.
> 
> Trying too closely to replicate a natural habitat with respect to substrate can be more trouble than good. Sometimes we have to make compromises to preserve the biological stability.


Clay + sand + silt ~ humus = soil. Although 'soil' is not found in fast moving streams (I understand the Amazon pumps tons into the ocean) it is found in nearly all ponds, lakes, ditches and such. Bogs especially most often have a soil base with a lot of decaying organic muck.

It goes without saying that planted aquariums, given amounts of fertilizer additives can be done with a substrate of gravel or sand, just as we can do hydroponics...and perhaps this more sterile environment makes tank management easier. On the other hand, we can't discount the more organic biotope systems that use a soil base.
In your last statement:


Byron said:


> Trying too closely to replicate a natural habitat with respect to substrate can be more trouble than good. Sometimes we have to make compromises to preserve the biological stability.


If we would not also apply this statement to living plants and water chemistry (which we often do not) we probably should not apply it to substrate. I think it's at least possible that a soil like substrate may support a more diverse ecosystem resulting in an even enhanced bio-stability. I think that's what Diana Walstad was saying.
But it's all food for thought and again, as with many things, there are potential pitfalls if not done properly.
So maybe it's not something a new comer to the hobby should attempt right away.

AD


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I agree, which is why I caution others on the use of soil; I've no idea as to the experience level of most members, so must assume from the questions that it is likely minimal. Mikaila can have great success with her soil tank, as the photos clearly show she has, but she has the experience to recognize issues and deal with them. A beginning hobbyist does not have this. Like the adages: crawl before you walk; and you need to get your feet wet before you can swim.

On my last sentence about replicating the ecosystem. There is no way we can completely do this. The immense size of nature alone cannot be contained within any aquarium, and the effects of all aspects of nature are far-reaching in the environment. We can replicate the processes in controlled situations, but the control is vital to preserving the stability. The same principle applies in a much smaller way when we say that larger tanks are easier to manage than smaller.


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## PonyMan (Jan 13, 2012)

OK so I've pretty much decided to rule out the soil dirted tank idea for now. I think I may just set up a 5 or 10g tank as an experimental play time just for kicks and grins. 

So with that being said - gravel vs sand! I plan on using live plants so I want to make sure I understand this correctly, with sand, I will NOT be doing any substrate vacuuming like I do my gravel tanks now? You know, no sticking the tube down into the substrate to stir up the silt/junk to be sucked up while being siphoned like I do my gravel? 

And if I go gravel with live plants do I still do the ordinary gravel type cleaning as described above?

I'm going with sand or gravel subs, just trying to determine which right now. If this is not explained right on my part please ask away to clarify so I can get this stuff in my head once and for all! LOL

Steve (55G w-a-i-t-i-n-g on me! )


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

Steve in planted tank be it with whatever substrate you have it is not recommend to do "normal" gravel vacuuming. Most ppl don't even touch the substrate in planted tanks. Reason being (simply put) is the organics you normally want to get out of the tank gets broke down and becomes plant food. Now if you are heavily feeding your fish you might discover that you may need to do a slight gravel vaccuum if your water parameters are not where they need to be.


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## PonyMan (Jan 13, 2012)

aaaah Boredomb! I get it now, the fish waste etc is actually a "fertilizer" of sorts! OK thanks so much for all the responses to the post! 

Steve


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Agree with Boredomb.

Now its your decision, as either sand or non-rough fine gravel will work fine. The darker the better. At any rate, not white.


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## PonyMan (Jan 13, 2012)

OK thanks Byron and to all who helped me better understand this!

Steve


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