# Stinking Water New Tank



## zaitmi

I am from India, kolkata, the temperature here is 31 Degree celcius, i have new 29 gallon tank filled with saltwater from last 2 weeks, i have added last week some live rocks from my petshop which he said were cured, after smelling i found very light smell almost nothing, but after adding them in my tank, i have found that my water is stinking whenever i put my hand in the water, my hand stinks badly, but the water is ok when u smell it by putting the nose above the tank. Yesterday my nitrate is 10mg/l, my ammonia test is also 0 , and ph is around 6.5 to 7. No fish is added yet, i have 1 internal filter and 1 powerhead. I have the lights but i am switching them on for 3-4 hrs. every evening. I have changed 20% water today and the bad smell has gone down a bit. . My salinity is 1.022 (earlier it was 1.028 in 32 degree celcius temperature and I am using bottled mineral water and my home Kent RO water purifier. 

Plz help what is wrong why my water is stinking. Is my live rock dead. Should i replace more water.

Imtiaz Khan


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## mollies

Do you have a heater YOU should keep your tank at 74 to 80 Degrees celcius. You might have froz every thing in the tank. 32 degrees is freezing leavels. What kind of fillter do you have? What kind of substrate are you useing sand or crushed coral? Tell us more bout the tank.


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## Pasfur

You live rock is not dead, but you are having some die off from the transition to a new tank. This is not uncommon. Continue with a series of water changes until the smell goes away. 

I agree with mollies, we need some more information about your setup to really provide help.


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## zaitmi

*New Test Results.*

You live rock is not dead, but you are having some die off from the transition to a new tank. This is not uncommon. Continue with a series of water changes until the smell goes away. 

I agree with mollies, we need some more information about your setup to really provide help.[/quote]

Thanks for the reply.

Temperture here in India is done in Celcius not in farheniet. Its 32 degree Celcius. India is hot & humid so i am using a Fan from today on the cover. (Cant afford a Chiller).

Test Reults 
23rd Sep09

ammonia - 0.
Nitrite - no kit.
**Nitrate - 40mg/l (yesterday 10mg/l)*
ph - 7.8
salinity -1.022
Temp : 30 deg. celcius.

Is **partial water change* required immediately. Should i change water daily or on alternate days. 
Plz reply at the earliest. 

Thanks in Advance.

Set up information :Its an Internal Filter(Brand : Resun)(like a rectangle box) I am using LIVE SAND, 1 small *Bacteria Pack* was provided in the tank 10 days back with the internal filter on. My pet shop owner told me its sufficient for a 29 gallon tank. Everything is running the powerhead the filter from last 2 weeks. What else info. do you need. Plz tell me. How can i show u a pic. of my tank to you guys.

*Plz Help*.


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## Arkamaic

I would say water changes about once a week. And yeah, 31 C is about 89 F, Your Ph will need to be increased to about 8.3. Salinity may be low, my tanks are about 1.024, not sure how much a difference that makes so ask more on that.


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## Pasfur

There is a lot to discuss on this. First, I would suggest that you find a conversion table and post your parameters in the units of measure most commonly discussed. This will help you avoid confusion and allow you to better understand other threads and magazines that you might read. Generally speaking, you should post ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates, and calcium as "ppm" or "parts per million". In the near future, when you begin testing for alkalinity, you should post in DKH. 

As for filtration on a saltwater tank, I suggest you take some time to look at the "Pictures and Videos" section of this website. You will find many examples of successful marine aquariums. As you do, you will see that nearly all of these have one thing in common. They rely on live rock, live sand, and a protein skimmer as the method of filtration. Regardless of tank size, this method will allow you the greatest opportunity to succeed, and is BY FAR the least time consuming. Water changes will be minimal, as little as 3 to 5 gallons per MONTH.

The reason you should not be using any other form of filtration is simple. Hang on power filters, biological filters, internal mechanical and chemical filters, these all do things to the water which cause an increase in nitrates and phosphates. In a marine aquarium we are trying to eliminate nitrates and phosphates, so using a filter which INTENTIONALLY inputs these elements into the aquarium just doesn't make any sense. A protein skimmer will directly REMOVE the waste, without negative side effets.

Additionally, the long term stability of your system will depend greatly on your ability to manage the relationship between calcium, alkalinity, and pH. These levels are much easier to maintain when the organic acids (waste) are directly removed by the protein skimmer. When these acids are broken down, as occurs with other filtration methods, carbonates are removed from the buffer system, causing fluctuating calcium and alkalinity.

I strongly suggest that you replace your internal filter with an appropriate protein skimmer. We can discuss options for you if you like.


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## mollies

sory got them mixed up cel and ferin. Sorry you might want to leave your lights off for a day and open the hood so that some heat can excape. 89 is a little hot which will make the tank smell funny,. My tank is 1.022 as yours is. I would let your tank cool down a bit.


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## studman50

with temperatures like that, if your home doesn't have a/c you might have to invest in a chiller instead of a heater.


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## zaitmi

*Arkamaic reply* : I am using *Red Sea Saltmix {mod edit: language removal} (I wanted Coral Pro but due to ignorance and no knowledge i bought this). Is thr a chance to convert from saltwater mix to coralpro salt with the same rock and sand later on.* The pack says Salinity should be 1.019 for 30 deg celcius temperature. I didn't mix it in a *seperate* container. I thought it was not required. Just dropped it slowly from the top of my tank with the powerhead on. From now onwards i will do it in a seperate container. Tonight i will add more saltmix after mixing it in a seperate container to increase the PH.

*Pasfur reply* : Hey Bro, i found in the internet that *mg/l and ppm are almost same* (if tested in liquids). I also used a conversion calculator and found the results same. Protien Skimmers are very expensive here, they are charging me $60 at the least. Its pretty expensive. But sure Bro I might buy it a bit later on.

24/09/09 (DD/MM/YY)
Results :
Ammonia = 0 (ppm or mg/l)
Nitrite = No kit.
Nitrate = 15 (ppm or mg/l) yesterday 40
ph = 7.5 
salinity = 1.022
temp = 29 deg. celcius.

Should i check them daily or weekly.

*mollies reply* : A 4" Fan has been installed on the hood(cover) to run 6 hrs. in the afternoon.

*studman50 reply : *i have A.C. in my room but we switch it for 2 hrs every night and then we switch on the fan sothe room remins cool whole night. In the afternoon 4" fan runs for 6 hrs. 

*Chk. my pic.* in aquariums (beside user).

Thanks a lot to all of you for such a nice response. *Awaiting for your replies.*


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## mollies

has your tank cooled down any?


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## zaitmi

yes when running it comes down from 30 deg celcius to 28 degree celcius.


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## zaitmi

yes the temp. is 2 deg less.


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## Arkamaic

Yeah, for mixing your salt, since you have no livestock, you can mix in tank. But once you start adding things, mix your salt in a separate container, and let it set for like a day. This ensures that the SG level will stabilize at whatever level it does. (maybe all the salt didn't dissolve into the water). So for examples, the SG level rises over the day from what you saw as a good reading, it doesn't hurt any animals and kill things in your tank.


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## Pasfur

It is actually a pretty good practice to always have a 5 gallon bucket of water mixed and ready. Just keep a small power head circulating water. When an emergency hits, having that 5 gallons of water ready can save you a lot of heartache!


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## zaitmi

*27th Sept09*
*Test results*.
Ammonia - 0 ppm.
Nitrite - No kit
Nitrate *10 ppm (yesterday 20 ppm)*
ph - 7.8
salinity - 1.022
temp - 31 deg. celcius.

*Can i add fish now?* I hope Bro the nitrogen cycle is completed. it has has been 3 weeks since i started.

Just a couple of yellow tail damsels to start wth.

Future additions would be :
2 clown fish.
1 bubble/long tentacle anemone.
my LFS has a long tentacle anemone and false percula in his tank(they enjoy a lot together) i think i will buy that comnbination.
1 star fish.
Thats all.

Is this okay for a 30 gallon tank. Plz reply.


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## Arkamaic

You're ph really should be higher, around 8.3. Pasfur or someone else may be able to help more on this, but I think the low ph is a result from a low calcium level. Anyway that you can get ahold of a Ca test? And try to do a water change and get your nitrates a little lower before you add fish.

Definitely try to get that combo. Would be really beneficial to the fish.


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## Pasfur

zaitmi said:


> *Can i add fish now?* I hope Bro the nitrogen cycle is completed. it has has been 3 weeks since i started.


I almost feel out of my chair. NO you are not ready for more fish!! Your system is not stable yet. Your parameters are all over the place and we have no idea exactly why the pH is doing what it is doing.

The best thing you can do right now is begin monitoring pH, alkalinity, and calcium daily, and otherwise don't even look at that tank. Just let it be for 2 or 3 weeks. The more patience you have right now the better your long term success rate will be.

Look, have you seen my 180 build thread? My feature fish is the Majestic Angelfish. I had that fish in quarantine for over 6 weeks! SIX LONG WEEKS. Just be patient with everything you do in this hobby. When you think you are ready, wait a few more days. When it comes to marine, patience = success.


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## zaitmi

*Arkamaic reply : I will ask that with Pasfur. thanks for the combo reply.*

*Pasfur reply: Okay Bro, i will wait but i am just asking for 2 yellow tail damsels right this moment, i dont have any fish right now in my tank(did u forgot) as u have wriiten "more fish". *I will try to monitor pH, alkalinity, and calcium. 
*Plz reply at the earliest.*

*28th Sept09
Test results*.
Nitrate *20 ppm (yesterday 10 ppm)*
ph - 7.8
salinity - 1.022 (*the Red Sea salt pack says to keep 1.020 in 30 deg. celcius*)
temp - 31 deg. celcius.
After the test i replaced *20% water.*
*

*


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## Pasfur

Yes, I forgot that you are fishless. Actually, that is a good thing! If you add the YT Damsels and the environment is a stressful one, then you risk infection and a very long delay. Having no fish at all, I'd work on the pH, alkalintiy, calcium situation first, get it corrected over this week, and shop for fish this weekend.

By the way, your salinity is still to low. I would run 1.023 - 1.024 on FOWLR systems.


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## zaitmi

*29th Sept09
Test results*.
Nitrate *20 ppm (yesterday 20 ppm)*
ph - 7.8
salinity - 1.022 (*the Red Sea salt pack says to keep 1.020 in 30 deg. celcius*)
temp - 31 deg. celcius.

Why my nitrates are not coming down from last week? Plz help.


Let them be i will try my luck with 1 damsel or.........


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## Arkamaic

What kinda of water are you using to supply your tank? I noticed you said you were using the Kent RO system and bottled mineral water to fill your tank, are you still using the bottled water to fill it? *IF you are, test the water from the bottle.* As there may be nitrates in there.

Also, how much live rock do you have in the tank at this moment? LR is a big part of the filtration in any tank. At one point or another, most rock turns into live rock in aquariums.

If you try your luck, chances are itl be bad. Fish may be fine for a week or so, but then may die due to your water not being ready.


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## Pasfur

zaitmi said:


> *29th Sept09
> Test results*.
> Nitrate *20 ppm (yesterday 20 ppm)*
> ph - 7.8
> salinity - 1.022 (*the Red Sea salt pack says to keep 1.020 in 30 deg. celcius*)
> temp - 31 deg. celcius.
> 
> Why my nitrates are not coming down from last week? Plz help.
> 
> Let them be i will try my luck with 1 damsel or.........


Patience, my friend, patience. This first month is only a month. You want many years of success with this tank, which you will have! Just be patient.

Your Nitrates will only begin to drop after denitrifying bacteria develop in your sand bed and deep inside your live rock. You are not even close to this happening. You probably have 8 to 10 more weeks before you will see Nitrates begin to drop. 

Don't worry, you can add fish before the Nitrate drop. Your only concern right now should be with getting the pH and alkalinity stable. These 2 readings are the BIGGEST stress factor for marine fish. As soon as you have the pH stable at 8.0-8.4 and the alkalinity at 8-12 dkh & calcium at 400-460ppm, you are ready for fish. This assumes the Nitrites and ammonia are zero.

Another issue, your salinity is to low. Ignore the package. You want 1.023 to 1.024, which is natural seawater.


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## zaitmi

Arkamic reply : I am using Kent RO Water purifier. But small dead particles flying on the rocks 8kg rocks. I will add some more very soon. .

Pasfur reply : Thanks maaan. 
*27th Sept09*
*Test results*.
Ammonia - 0 ppm.
Nitrite - No kit
Nitrate 20* ppm (yesterday 20 ppm)*
*ph - 8.0 (Yahoo!!* 
salinity - 1.022
temp - 32deg. celcius.

My LFS says why *Calcium test* when u are not using any* corals* ? Not reqd. he is confusing me bro? Not getting alkalinity test kit here in India(Kolkata)  > But i will Calcium Test Kit.
Salinity is 1.022 

Now regarding the smell(odour in my tank) It is still there(comes and goes after water changing). Here is column i got from the net which says to keep your lights on to kill Hydrogen Sulphide (So i am keeping my lights on for 8hrs. daily (T5 + Aqua Coral). My LFS also insisted to keep the lights on for the bad smell to go away.

*Rotten Egg Smell – Hydrogen Sulfide*
Filed under: Aquarium Environment 
If your saltwater aquarium smells like rotten eggs (or eggs in general), you’re smelling hydrogen sulfide. In an aquarium environment, hydrogen sulfide is usually caused by organic material (i.e. food particles, feces, dead material) rotting in a place without oxygen.
Usually the only non-oxygenated area in your saltwater aquarium is beneath your substrate. Organic slipped beneath your substrate and is decaying without oxygen. This is basically the nitrogen cycle without the oxygen.
Hydrogen sulfide could occur if you’ve had a power failure and organic material left in the filter has started decaying without oxygen. Make sure you flush out your filter before starting it back up, in this case.
*Ways To Address Hydrogen Sulfide Problem*
The most common way to address hydrogen sulfide problem in your saltwater aquarium is to remove deposits in your substrate.
The first step is to remove all living organisms to another tank. That includes fish, living rocks and corals, invertebrates like crabs or shrimp, and everything else.
If there are organisms that you can’t remove (for whateve rreason), there are steps you can take to maximize their survival.
1. *Do the change the brightest lights possible. The lights drive higher oxygen concentrations and the oxygen will help neutralize hydrogen sulfide.*
2. Add iron supplements to the water. The iron will bind to the sulfide, making it neutral to living organisms. Where can i get iron supplements ?
3. Make sure there’s plenty of oxygen in the water. The primary way oxygen enters a tank is through oxygen exchange between the water surface and air. Run a powerhead to circulate water from the bottom to the top for several days before the change.
4. Before and during the substrate change, run your saltwater aquarium water through granular ferric oxide (GFO) and activated carbon.
*Ways To Prevent Hydrogen Sulfide Problem*
One of the best ways to prevent hydrogen sulfide problem in your saltwater aquarium substrate is to run an undergravel filterplate. This will circulate water from your tank through your substrate and properly oxygenating them.
Keep housekeeping invertebrates like hermits crabs or shrimp. They do a fantastic job of scavenging food from substrate surface, before they can slip between the cracks and into the deep.

Sunlight, both visible and ultraviolet, play a pivotal role in breaking down hydrogen sulfide to safe forms. Having proper lighting will go a long way to prevent future hydrogen sulfide outbreak:

Super High Output (SHO)
Compact Fluorescent Light (CFL)
Metal Halide
LED
Don’t bury live rock in your substrate. Otherwise, the portion that’s buried will die and start to rot beneath the surface. Rather, use dead rocks as a base and place live rocks on them.
*Final Thoughts*
Like keeping the nitrogen cycle in control (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate), controling hydrogen sulfide is a part of owning a saltwater aquarium. Proper maintenance will go a long way to prevent any serious conditions.


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## zaitmi

Aquarium (and Pond) Answers: Hydrogen Sulfides

Another study showed that when 300 ppb hydrogen sulfide was added to Biscayne Bay and Gulf Stream waters off of Florida, the half life of the sulfide was 49 and 147 minutes, respectively. Such studies found that sunlight (both ultraviolet and visible) was able to significantly accelerate the oxidation. 
This speaks “loudly” for strong lighting whether it be healthy 6400 K SHO lamps or Metal Halide (which my previous notes in reef keeping showed NO hydrogen sulfide production when these lights were employed). This also shows one more reason why a UV Sterilizer should be used, whether fresh or saltwater if they can at all be afforded (of which UV Sterilizers are not all that expensive, even for good quality models such as the Terminator).


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## Pasfur

zaitmi said:


> My LFS says why *Calcium test* when u are not using any* corals* ? Not reqd. he is confusing me bro? Not getting alkalinity test kit here in India(Kolkata)  > But i will Calcium Test Kit.
> Salinity is 1.022


By saying this, your LFS has given you enough information to make you no longer accept their advice as having any credibility. Alkalinity, Calcium, and pH are all connected, so to speak. You will work very hard to be successful in the marine hobby until you understand this relationship. The marine hobby is not difficult, and should not be overly time consuming, provided you use the correct equipment and understand what is happening with your water and how to adjust these parameters. If you are unable to purchase an alkalinity test kit in your part of the world, then use the internet. Here is the test kit you need:
Alkalinity Pro Test Lab | Alkalinity Test Kits & Refills | Test Kits & Refills | Aquarium - ThatPetPlace.com

On the next topic, you do not have a problem with hydrogen sulfide. This is a problem that occurs in established aquariums that are not set up correctly to begin with. You do not have this issue. You have live rock that is still curing. Your problem happens all the time with new live rock shipments. Let me put it this way... if you were driving your car and it suddenly began to sputter and then stopped, and the gas gauge said you are out of gas, would you continue to look for another problem? No, you would buy some gas!!! This is how easy your situation in the aquarium is. There is nothing to think about. It is obvious.

I agree with these comments that a UV Sterilizer is beneficial. I use one myself.


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## zaitmi

Thanks for the reply, so after checking the calcium test i will put a couple of damsels if the test are within normal range. i hope the stink doesnt bother them. but it stinks only bad when i smell my fingers very closely. yes my rock are curing. My LFS fooled my by saying it they are cured. damn it bro. 

Ok but petplace do they supply in india. let see. i will chk that ourt now.


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## Pasfur

If they do not ship to india, find another online supplier that does. There are endless internet sources to order supplies from, and the costs are much lower than at your LFS.

Not having an alkalinity test kit, we are going to have to "guess" at where things stand, after a calcium and pH test. Calcium will give you a pretty good indicator in a new tank of where the alkalinity is.

For the record, I am 100% against adding fish to this tank until after the rock is cured and the smell is gone. This statement gives me the right, at a later date, to say "I told you so".;-)


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## zaitmi

That petplace.com costs a lot bro to supply in india around $75 for the kit (freight is $71). Thats too high. I will find soon a dealer locally. Thats fine.

I replaced 25 ltrs. (around 30%) water from my tank today. The stink was still thr.
But i need to ask you something i am dying to put the fish in my tank. My whole family wants them. Everybody is tired waiting.
I have an idea. Can i put my rocks in another plastic tub in saltwater with a powerhead to get it cured for a month or so and in the meantime if the smell goes off in the tank by replacing some more water. i can add fish here in my tank after checking the calcium and ph. I have an internal filter which can take care for sometime. i will be getting the calcium kit by tomorrow or day after.

Have u seen the picture of my tank. 

plz answer.


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## zaitmi

Good News. I just caught my Live rock supplier and took him to my home last night as to why still stinking. He replaced my internal filterand said that is the cause. he then installed top filter with some Z*eolite* stones (will add charcoal and ceramic rings tmrw). *My God today when i put my hand in the tank the water, it smells fresh. Wow I am so happy. No bad smell at all.*
http://www.zeoliteproducer.com/aquarium.html

I think my problem was internal filter which was not cleaned since last when i bought it and installed it.

No test done yet. today i will chk Ammonia(again) Ph and Nitrates. I am still waiting for the calcium testkit thru my LFS.

Plz help whats next ?


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## Pasfur

Pasfur said:


> As for filtration on a saltwater tank, I suggest you take some time to look at the "Pictures and Videos" section of this website. You will find many examples of successful marine aquariums. As you do, you will see that nearly all of these have one thing in common. They rely on live rock, live sand, and a protein skimmer as the method of filtration. Regardless of tank size, this method will allow you the greatest opportunity to succeed, and is BY FAR the least time consuming. Water changes will be minimal, as little as 3 to 5 gallons per MONTH.
> 
> The reason you should not be using any other form of filtration is simple. Hang on power filters, biological filters, internal mechanical and chemical filters, these all do things to the water which cause an increase in nitrates and phosphates. In a marine aquarium we are trying to eliminate nitrates and phosphates, so using a filter which INTENTIONALLY inputs these elements into the aquarium just doesn't make any sense. A protein skimmer will directly REMOVE the waste, without negative side effets.
> 
> Additionally, the long term stability of your system will depend greatly on your ability to manage the relationship between calcium, alkalinity, and pH. These levels are much easier to maintain when the organic acids (waste) are directly removed by the protein skimmer. When these acids are broken down, as occurs with other filtration methods, carbonates are removed from the buffer system, causing fluctuating calcium and alkalinity.
> 
> I strongly suggest that you replace your internal filter with an appropriate protein skimmer. We can discuss options for you if you like.


Please read this again, because you are moving in a direction that is in complete opposite of what this hobby is all about. I am not sure how to help you at this point, because you are looking at the short term, as opposed to long term stability.


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## zaitmi

Where are you bro ? I am waiting.


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## Arkamaic

Pasfur is right. Patience is key, yes it is hard to have to wait. But it will be much more benficial to your tank.


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## zaitmi

*Protien Skimmer xptd soon.*

Please read this again, because you are moving in a direction that is in complete opposite of what this hobby is all about. I am not sure how to help you at this point, because you are looking at the short term, as opposed to long term stability.


I am not going opposite bro, the live rock and live sand is already thr in the tank, i just need a protien skimmer. I have already ordered my Protien Skimmer last week to my LFS. Will be getting very soon. As for this top filter it will be containing charcoal for 5 days, zeolite stone,ceramic rings for 6 months then to be replaced. But u say no to filters coz they r harmful. Bro let it run for sometime then i will take it out. I need long term commitment.:lol:


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## Pasfur

zaitmi said:


> I am not going opposite bro, the live rock and live sand is already thr in the tank, i just need a protien skimmer. I have already ordered my Protien Skimmer last week to my LFS. Will be getting very soon. As for this top filter it will be containing charcoal for 5 days, zeolite stone,ceramic rings for 6 months then to be replaced. But u say no to filters coz they r harmful. Bro let it run for sometime then i will take it out. I need long term commitment.:lol:


Very good. Glad you have a skimmer on the way. I misunderstood somewhere.

I am still not a fan of the zeolite, even in the short term. Zeolite will become biologically active, with an end result of nitrate and phosphates. The ceramic rings will do the same. There is just no reason to utilize these, and they are actually degrading to the water quality, and add no benefits at all to the system.

The charcoal or activated carbon will help, especially in the short term. These both will absorb organic acids, helping to reduce the buildup of organics that are being processed biologically. This will allow for some short term assistance until the protein skimmer arrives. The skimmer will do this same job (sort of), but will be much more efficient.


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## zaitmi

Thanks again for the reply. But can i use my top filter without any media.Please dont mind bro but I have added 1 yellow tail damsel just to test i.e. after 31 days. He is doing good from last 18 hrs. I put the fish packet on top of the aquarium for half an hour then i started to put some small amount water on the packet in a small cup after 10 mins for an hour. Then i added the fish in my tank.

Test Results :08/10/09 (dd/mm/yy)
Ammonia = 0
Nitrite= No kit.
Nitrate = <20ppm
Salinity = 1.022
Ph = 8.0ppm
Temp : 30 deg celcius.

Are my parameters correct. Is everything alright?


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## Pasfur

zaitmi said:


> But can i use my top filter without any media.Please dont mind bro but I have added 1 yellow tail damsel just to test i.e. after 31 days.
> 
> Test Results :08/10/09 (dd/mm/yy)
> Ammonia = 0
> Nitrite= No kit.
> Nitrate = <20ppm
> Salinity = 1.022
> Ph = 8.0ppm
> Temp : 30 deg celcius.
> 
> Are my parameters correct. Is everything alright?


Yes, you can run the top filter without media. The live rock and sand are the primary filtration on your aquarium. The top filter is a nice place for activated carbon, and provides good water circulation for gas exchange. 

Your parameters look good as posted, but keep in mind, these are just the most basic parameters. These are great for telling us that everything is ok today, but you really need to test for alkalinity and calcium for long term aquarium maintenance. By the way, I would raise the salinity to 1.024. Also, continue to monitor Nitrates weekly. Ultimately, you want Nitrates >5ppm.


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## zaitmi

Thanks a lot for the quick reply. u r a nice person :

Thanks for the media info. btw how old r u bro? R u from UK. is this site from UK.
Next week 1 Red/Blue star fish will be added in my tank. i was dying to add it. Wow. 
Might get 1 yellow tang after a week if i am lucky.

Calcium test kit next week.

India is hot & humid.


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## zaitmi

Pasfur said:


> Yes, you can run the top filter without media. The live rock and sand are the primary filtration on your aquarium. The top filter is a nice place for activated carbon, and provides good water circulation for gas exchange.
> 
> Your parameters look good as posted, but keep in mind, these are just the most basic parameters. These are great for telling us that everything is ok today, but you really need to test for alkalinity and calcium for long term aquarium maintenance. By the way, I would raise the salinity to 1.024. Also, continue to monitor Nitrates weekly. Ultimately, you want Nitrates >5ppm.


 
Hey Pasfur check out my tank photo of last week, just by clicking my user name and view public profile, to land in my album. (Progress Pics)
Are my Powerheads on right place or.... 
should i add more rocks now or wait for sometime. Its 8 kgs.
Tell me how it looks.


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## Pasfur

I checked out the tank pictures. I like the powerhead placement in pictures #1, it appears to give the best water flow without disturbing the sand to much. By the way, it appears that you have a venturi adapter on the black power head. Is this true? If so, remove it. You don't want all these bubbles blown into a marine aquarium.

Your system is extremely young, which shows visibly. You have no coraline algae growth at all. The sand is still very immature, showing none of the visible signs that appear after copepods and amphipods begin to flourish. This is very likely because of your limited amount of rock. You really need to triple this amount of live rock for your fish to feel safe and secure, and for a nice diversity of critters to spread. Plus, you need more rock for the filtering capacity of the rock.

Here is what I would do. Go to your LFS and ask to buy a handful of the crushed live rock from the bottom of the live rock vat. It will just be useless junk to them, but will be loaded with a diversity of copepods and amphipods. Take this handful of rock(sand) and just pour it across the back glass, hidden from view by your live rock. This will help tremendously and is a technique I have used to increase the diversity of life in my tanks.

You asked about adding a Yellow Tang. Here is a post I just posted in another thread. It applies to this discussion, so I just copied it:

I know most discussions focus on the cycling process, but the cycle is actually not very important in marine aquarium keeping. We take it for granted, so to speak, but it does not really give us any information that is helpful. When I discuss an aquarium being "mature", I am looking for a few things.

1) the diatom bloom has come and gone.
2) coraline algae is beginning to cover the rocks and glass.
3) Nitrate has reached its peak and began to fall. Yes, NitrAte.
4) Your glass and sand show an abundant supply of copepods and amphipods. This becomes very visible when you clean the glass, because these little critters and wiped off into the water column, and your fish love the snack!
5) your alkalinity and calcium test results have become somewhat predictable, and your dosing routine has become standard, with little variation.

These are all signs that your system is mature and your tank is ready to successfully keep all varieties of fish, invert, and coral.

Moving on, another issue you need to give thought to is your fish selection. In my opinion, you can not keep a Yellow Tang in a 29 gallon tank. Not at all. There is another thread running titled "15g difficult". I suggest you read along with that thread as well, because the information applies directly to your tank. Yesterday I posted a very long post about fish selection. Here is the link:
http://www.fishforum.com/starting-saltwater-aquarium/15g-difficult-30212/

Oh yes, I am 36 years old, live in the U.S. I started keeping fish at age 12, marines at age 16 or so. Also, both of those starfish you like are impossible to keep alive in captivity. They should be left in the ocean. You would have an impossible time sustaining any starfish in a 29 gallon tank. There simply is not enough life for them to graze on. You WILL kill that starfish, so don't buy it.


----------



## zaitmi

Yesterday i saw Deep Sea *3D* Movie (IMAX)in theatre. Wow that was good experience.

Test Result 

Ammonia = 0
*Nitrate = < 10 ppm. *3) Nitrate has reached its peak and began to fall. Yes, NitrAte.
Ph = 8.0
Took out charcoal after 3 days(activated carbon) from Top filter but it is still running with ceramic rings and zeolite stones.
Salinity 1.023
temp 30 deg celcius.
Yellow tail damsel is doing fine except she hides a lot under the rocks.


Thanks for watching my tank.

(it appears that you have a venturi adapter on the black power head. )
No it is just the top filter pouring from top of the cover.

Well Its pretty difficult to get crushed live rock since most my LFS are not using Live Rock in their aquarium. Still i will try to make it. I will add more rocks that will be easier for me, will try just to get the cured ones with copepods etc. running in their(LFS) tanks.

Okay No to yellow tang & star fish. but yes to clown fish and long tentacle anemone.

What type of fish can i add to my tank ?


----------



## Pasfur

A Clownfish would be a great starting fish for you. An anemone has a lot of other special needs. This could be a good long term option, but I would want the tank to be at least 6 months mature. Honestly, anemones are very difficult. Check out this web page for some tips: Caring for Rose Anemones the right way - INTRODUCTION

For other fish selections, I would try to stick with some of the "nano" species that you often see for sale. Fish such as Flasher Wrasse, some Gobies, and Blennies are the best choice for your tank size. Provided you stick with these small fish, you could have as many as 5 or 6 different fish. I suggest you look at some of the build threads for these nano systems.


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## zaitmi

Somebody is offering me 8 kgs of Fully Cured Live Rock from his tank. Should i go for it.

i think i dont have a choice. though its a bit expensive.

If i buy it and put it in my tank what will happen to the nitrogen cycle ?

What say Pasfur Bro ?


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## Pasfur

Why don't you have a choice? If you are buying live rock that is experienced, it is usually high quality. However, you want to find out why he is selling the rock. How long ago did he have his last algae bloom? Has he ever treated with copper? Do you have any reason at all to think the rock is not in perfect condition?

Adding this rock will do nothing to your nitrogen cycle. The rock sounds to be fully cured, and will have a significant ability to biologically process waste. This should be a good thing for you.


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## zaitmi

Caring for Rose Anemones the right way - INTRODUCTION. This was really good. Thanks. But 6 months 

Bro later my LFS told me that 8kg rocks are only 3 months old  Not fully grown.

Another LFS is giving me 2 kgs of Full Algae Hawain Live Rock with some of his tank sand. His tank looks very old with lots of algae. But selling me on a high price as they will flourish very fast on my tank.

Now tell me bro which one i should go for : *8kg 3 months old for $40 or **2kg 1 year old for $20.*
*or both ?*

I am confused.

Plz reply fast bro as his shop is closed tmrw. I am going tonight.


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## mollies

I would do both. i hope i answerd you fast enough as pasfur is probly asleep. An time diffrence from where you are to us when he gets up it would be to late. lol


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## Arkamaic

I say both. 
8kg=17.6 pounds, which puts it at 2.30 a pound, which is not bad a price.

The other is about 5 dollars a pound for matured rock. 

This is less than what I paid for just cured live rock.


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## zaitmi

Well Well thanks for your replies. Hey Pasfur Bro r u still sleeping. just kidding.

I bought just a small live rock weighing 300 gms and some sand from my LFS tank last night. Guess what, the sand green algae which looked dead last night have started growing when i saw them in the morninig. But no ampipods or copepods were seen in my LFS tank. Just green algae on the rocks. 

I am using 12 hrs. light with Philips aqua coral and t5.

i have noticed from last couple of days that small brown algaes in my sand covering 20% of the sand. what are these. diatom blooms. is this normal.is this useful? Should i buy more rocks now.


----------



## Pasfur

Yes, you are seeing a diatom bloom. No worries.

I agree, I would have bought both deals on the live rock.


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## zaitmi

*Diatom Bloooom*

how long the diatom will last? 
can i add 1 or 2 false percula at this moment?:-D


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## Pasfur

The diatom will last a few weeks. Yes, I think you can add a couple of Ocellaris Clowns. Keep them small!!!! Larger ones will become more aggressive towards future fish additions.


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## zaitmi

Thanks Pasfur. 
One more question : When should i do water replacement or how often i do water replacement? Is it required now in the beginning of diatom bloom, last water replacemant was done 25% around 10 days back. If yes how much quantity? 

Do i need to do top up with freshwater or saltwater coz my LFS says if u do top up with saltwater it will increase ur salinity.Right now the salinity is 1.023.

My yellow damsel eats a lot. I am feeding flakes (Indian Brand). Whenever i feed him he is ready to eat flakes and always searching for food. Are pellets reqd.? He is so small how can he eat so much ?

Take Care Bro.

(The tank is running with ceramic rings and zeolite stones from top filter).


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## Arkamaic

You should only need water changes once, maybe twice a month if the system is set up right. I do about a gallon a month, if that to my 14 gallon because it is all in balance for the most part.

For top off, use fresh water. You lose water to evaporation. But only water evaporates. The salt and everything else in the water remains. 

Glad to hear you finally have a fish. Pellets are not required, however it is good to feed your fish a variety of food. This keeps them from getting bored, and not eating the same food.


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## zaitmi

Thanks Arkamaic for reading my posts and replying but where is Pasfur.

What else i can give them apart from flakes?


----------



## Arkamaic

Is there any way that you can get some form of mysis shrimp, such as frozen?


----------



## onefish2fish

Arkamaic said:


> Pellets are not required, however it is good to feed your fish a variety of food. This keeps them from getting bored, and not eating the same food.


i havnt had a chance to read this entire thread yet but this caught my eye. the fish need a mixture of foods for their health and immune system as well as their protective slime coating, oily foods are best for that. think about it, in the wild your fish constantly swim on the search for food, but its all different kinds of things, like heres a crab, theres a patch of algae, theres a dead fish... and their diet changes. 

i personally dont use flakes at all. i will however use the hikari small pellets from time to time but for the most part its squid,clam,algae sheets,mysis,blackworms and things of that sort soaked in aminios and garlic and ALWAYS pre-rinsed prior to soaking then feeding. i make my own foods but frozen foods are jam packed with phosphates and nasties which only lead to algae outbreaks.

for the longest time i was feeding my fish every 2 to 3 days. my tank was algae free but my fish still well fed. recently ive been doing multiple very tiny feedings more often. im seeing a few spots of bad algae in my tank as a result but nitrates have stayed 0, which personally doesnt bother me the least bit as my nitrates havnt been higher then 0 for over a year.


----------



## onefish2fish

after skimming through this, i dont know why you went with a damsel. they are "reef safe," but not "fish safe" any fish you wish to add now will most likely run into territory and aggression issues.


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## terryap

the first time around I tried this hobby I had a domino damsel, extremely agressive, had to bring it back to the LFS, that is.....after 2 hours of trying to catch it, fast little guys.


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## zaitmi

*Blue Spots on the Yellow Tail Damsel.*

Pasfur Bro Whr r u ?

The sand(80%) and rocks(40%) is covered by the Deep brown algae . Hope it passes soon and turns into green.

Test Results :18/10/2009 (dd/mm/yy)
Ammonia = 0
Nitrite= No kit.
Nitrate = 20ppm (Water replacement 15%.)
Salinity = 1.023
*Ph = 7.8 ppm* (Should i add baking soda) Test done with New Tetra Test Kit. (Though fish looks okay BUT RECENTLY I HAVE NOTICED 2 BLUE SPOTS BOTH SIDES BELOW THE EYE). BLUE SPOTS ?
Temp : 87 deg farenheit.


Food provded Azoo Pellets and E-Jet Flakes.

New clown fish not yet added(not available). Will be available in a couple of days in my LFS.


----------



## Pasfur

zaitmi said:


> Thanks Arkamaic for reading my posts and replying but where is Pasfur.


I've been following along. Arkamaic has been guiding you perfectly, so I've really had nothing to add till now.

On the subject of your water tests, there are some issues beginning to present themselves. First, an isolated pH test of 7.8 scares me a bit. At what time of day did you take this test? How long had the lights been on (or off)?

For the record, not knowing your alkalinity makes this pH test even more concerning. ABSOLUTELY DO NOT ADD BAKING SODA. You do not have any test results that suggest adding baking soda would be helpful. Nothing. Who put this idea into your head? :roll: We need results for alkalinity and calcium. Find these test kits, especially alkalinity.

Your temperature is 87F???? Lets do something about that. WOW. I run my tanks at 76F. You can add a small fan to blow across the surface of the water if necessary.


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## zaitmi

*You can add a small fan to blow across the surface of the water if necessary.*

*mollies reply* : A 4" Fan has been installed on the hood(cover) to run 6 hrs. in the afternoon installed 3 weeks back. i will confirm the temperature again.:roll:


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## zaitmi

*Okay so you were following my thread thats gr8.:lol:*

*I can get Calcium Kit. But Alakalinity Kit is very difficult to get. I can get the test done of both by paying $6 in my Local Area Test Laboratory. Its a Multi-National Firm. They deal in all kinds of tests. Here is a link : http://www.mitrask.com/www/Contact.html. OR If i buy the Calcium Kit now it will cost me $8. Which one should i prefer ?*

*(my God doing FOWLR is so expensive, if i would have gone to reef tank what would have happend anyways now i am in it so i have to cross the river).*

*Ph Test time was afternoon 3.00 pm(lights were on from last 4 hrs.)*

*Search Baking Soda in Google to increase ph (its floooded on the net).:twisted:*


*You can add a small fan to blow across the surface of the water if necessary.*
Replied earlier : A 4" Fan has been installed on the hood(cover) to run 12 hrs. in the day time installed 3 weeks back. But i will confirm the temperature again.:roll:


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## Pasfur

This is ridiculous. I am ready to mail you an alkalinity kit. Send me a self-addressed postage paid package and a 16oz bottle of AmQuel and I will send you an alkalinity kit in return. Yes, seriously. PM me.

For now, get the calcium kit. This is a relatively new system, so the calcium result will give us a good indicator of the alkalinity levels, especially if we can test pH at the same time each day. But this is NOT a long term solution to alkalinity. In the short term, we can assume your other carbonate buffers are in the acceptable range.


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## zaitmi

*Its Brown Brown Brown*

The sand rocks and glass are all almost BROWN. It makes me Frown.

Thanks bro for doing this favour but what is 16oz bottle of AmQuel and where can i get it. Is it available in India?:roll:

First let me get the calcium kit and reply u with the results tmrw.:-?

India is hot humid and a 3rd world country.


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## zaitmi

More news ahead.

Just got Calcium Kh Kit (actually Alkalinity but nobody knows here).

Anyways the results are here.

Calcim : 440 ppm. Hope its normal.

Alkalinity : 8 dkh. (is it high?).

Well what now Pasfur or Arkamaic Bro.

Plz reply at the earliest. Yellow tail damsel is doing fine and 
alone coz no clown fish available here in LFS.


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## Arkamaic

Finally got a test, good. 440ppm for Calcium is a good number. I believe some like it higher. Mine is finally around 440 like yours. Most like it around 400-460 ppm

My Alkalinity is also 8. I aim for 8-12 dkh.

Pasfur or someone will help more with this, but I think that you need to add a buffer to get your Ph up. Dont go with what I say on that though, for I am still elarning the chemistry behind it.


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## zaitmi

*We have Arrived in a Damsel Kingdom.*

No clown fish available even after searching 3 weeks.:roll:

So last night i bought 1 Pakistani Red Tail butterfly & 1 Small Baby Sailfin Tang.:lol:
My LFS said butterfly is good algae cleaner.

The damsel initially started to fight but its becoming okay since morning. Though new comers are in one corner of the aquarium while the damsel rules the whole tank scaring them with his spiky dorsal fin. Hope they will be fine and soon be friends. (I did some modification on my rock due to the initial fight and gave some hiding place for the new comers).:lol:

But the new comers are not eating flakes nor the pellet. They were only grazing algae which is deep brown at this moment. Dont they eat flakes or pellet ?



I have iphone and i have downloaded a software Aquaria which says Butterfly & Tangs are comaptible with Damsels.:lol:

Someone should reply i hope ?


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## terryap

You should read this following link, I think your tank is way too small for a sailfin tang and a redtail pakistanti butterfly, hope the following info helps:


Sailfin Tang​(Zebrasoma veliferum)

 [URL="http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=15+25+268&pcatid=268"]
Pakistan Butterflyfish​(Chaetodon collare)​
[/URL]Pakistan Butterflyfish​​


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## zaitmi

No its okay for them. I have read other articles 125 gallon is fine. i am providing 130 gallon.

Just worried about the food. No algae food available here.


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## wake49

zaitmi said:


> No its okay for them. I have read other articles 125 gallon is fine. i am providing 130 gallon.
> 
> Just worried about the food. No algae food available here.


I have been stalking this thread lol, and I thought it was a 29 or thirty gallon tank? I am confused as to the size of the tank. Is it 130 gallons? If so, it's definitely big enough for both of those fish. 

A 30 gallon tank is pushing it for even one of these two fish, especially the Tang. The gallon reccomendations put on these websites are more of a generic tag than anything. These kind of fish need room to swim. They need an ample amount of live rock to graze on. They need a lot of places to hide. A standard 30 gallon is 12" x 36" x 17" I think. Fish such as Tangs, Butterflies, Angels, etc... are fish that like to roam and graze. These fish are at their happiest when they have the room to roam and graze, and happy=healthy.:-D

Fish like Clowns, some Gobies, some Blennies... these are more of the "gate-keeper" type. They like to hover in certain areas and protect small dugouts or caves they reside in. These types of fish are perfect for smaller tanks, 55 gallons or less. 

The 130 gallon tank, is that an idea for the near future? Do you plan on upgrading soon? I had a Hippo Tang in my 46 gallon Bow before I upgraded to the 150 gallon I have now. He was a baby, maybe 2-3". He has sprung up in size since the move, he's probably around six inches now at the least. I wouldn't reccomend that you buy smaller fish with the plan of upgrading, because if things come and plans change, that large fish is growing in a small enviroment. It isn't all that healthy for the fish.

So, when the website says 150 gallon minimum, they are kind of going along the idea that most 150 gallon tanks are 6' long. There is a 4' long 150 gallon that obviously wouldn't provide as much swimming room as it's 6' counterpart. I wouldn't say that those two tanks are of the same type. These internet sites should really say, "needs 6' of swimming room," or "tends to stay in one area, 18 inches of swimming room recommended"....


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## terryap

I swear I saw 29 gallon as well??? sorry if it is 130 gallon, I thought it was 29.......hope it works out well


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## terryap

I thought I was seeing things..... but your first posts mentions 29 gallon and 30 gallon a few times??
was it a typo? and you meant 130 gallon?


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## zaitmi

*Oh God....*

Yes it is typo mistake. Mine is 30 gallon only.

But the Small Sailfin Tang started getting *micro white spots* and *died* today morning. Last night after coming from my office when i spotted white spots and he was gasping near the sand falling from this side and that side, i immediately removed him to my fish bowl with the some tank water and tested for nitrates in the tank, it was 10 ppm. Fine..but ??. 

I knew he won't survive.

May be Sailfin Tang got stressed a lot due to the damsel annoyance and transportation. Poor Soul i feel so sad about it. God Bless his/her soul.

Pakistani Butterfly is doing well. :roll: But what about his food(always searching for algaes)? Can i give Live worms(Deep Brown Colour) which is fed to the freshwater fishes? Brine shrimp is not available here in Kolkata, india. I am still searching for hatching eggs? 

*How long it will take my algaes to grow ? Can anybody answer this one? :evil:*
Its been more than 2 weeks of the diatom bloom ? 12 hrs. light daily provided. Aqua Coral & T5.

Pasfur/Arkamaic r u guys concerned?:shock:


----------



## Pasfur

zaitmi said:


> Pasfur/Arkamaic r u guys concerned?:shock:


Concerned? I am beyond concerned. I have no idea why you bought fish, much less these specific fish. Anyhow, moving on....

On the subject of buffers. Calcium at 440ppm and alkalinity of 8dkh, with a pH on the bottom end of the acceptable range. I would expect pH to be higher with these levels of calcium and alkalinity, so lets do a water change. I would suggest changing 5 gallons of water, waiting 24 hours, and then testing again. Lets see how these levels respond. Adding baking soda would not do anything productive with these levels, but adding a true buffer, such as Kent Marine Super Buffer DKH, might help, because it contains buffering salts such as borate and magnesium, which appear to be lacking in your system. 

The goal is to get calcium, alkalinity, and pH all in the acceptable range. At this point you can test regularly and start to see trends, adding calcium or buffers as necessary.

Man, your fish selection was horrible. I mean HORRIBLE. You need to ask before you make these decisions. Right now, having a fish that died from ich, you need to wait 90 days before purchasing another fish.


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## zaitmi

wait 90 days before purchasing another fish.

Can i use a Quarantine bowl instead of tank forthe next fish. (i have a fishbowl).


----------



## terryap

you mean a glass goldfish bowl ???


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## zaitmi

Yes a glass fishbowl 5 gallon. 

What abt my damsel and butterfly fish? Will they get infected? 

Coz they are in the same tank without UV Sterilizer. (it was recommended by Pasfur). but its not available here now, but will be soon available.


----------



## terryap

I would definately not use a fishbowl, I think the fish would drop dead within a few days, at this point Pasfur has some pretty good advice on how to treat ICH if you read the post, maybe it will give you an idea on how to control it.
and if I am not mistaken, ich is extremely contagious, I would wait the 90 days to make sure the tank is rid of it, this hobby is expensive enough, you don't want to spend money to go out the window and for dissapointment do you?

Also have you read the diet for your butterfly fish? you mentioned algae, but these fish are carnivores, so if it isn't eating, maybe something is wrong? but I am not 100% sure, I am sure Pasfur can comment.


----------



## Pasfur

Honestly, I'm not sure how I can help at this point. The words that follow are not an attempt to bash you or be rude. But this thread can be helpful for others who are following along. 

I am only being honest when I say it is highly likely that your Butterflyfish will also die in the very short future. The tank is way to small and the aquarium is not mature enough to successfully keep this fish. Plus, you still have pH issues. To make it worse, you have introduced ich into the tank, which was a result of quick decision making, as opposed to careful planning. You skipped quarantine and purchased fish that are beyond the readiness of the tank.

Folks, saltwater is not hard. What is hard is controlling your personal behavior. Extreme patience is required to be successful. This thread has become a perfect example of what not to do.

Now, what to do from here? My advice is to immediately begin feeding garlic with every feeding. Garlic boosts the fish resistance to ich. Unfortunately, it will be very difficult to get your Butterflyfish to accept this type of food. You may want to purchase algae sheets that are garlic enhanced.


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## zaitmi

May be this thread help others to learn from my mistakes.:frustrated:

Well I have finally purchased more 18 lbs of *cured+MATURED Rocks* with some *green purple algae* and very few *tube worms* from my LFS. He bought it from one of his customers who wanted to sell the rocks. Well they look beautiful. Wait till i upload the pics.:notworthy:
Total *35lbs Live Rocks* in my tank now.
Made lots of aquascapes. (Picture will be updated soon).
Protien Skimmer xptd soon.

Pasfur. r u talking about the garlic which we eat in food. *White ones, 1 inch long*. Or fishes eat some special garlics mixed in their food. Plz reply fast for this one.
Algae sheets that are garlic enhanced not available here.


Butterfly is doing well always searching for algae or may be worms.


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## Pasfur

Many fish foods today have a garlic supplement in the food. I use Ocean Nutrition Formula Two Pellet food. You should buy the small pellet size, and be prepared to feed a little at a time. It takes a few feeding for most marine fish to accept pellets. The Butterfly will probably not eat them.


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## zaitmi

Should i keep the lights on? if yes how many hours ?


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## zaitmi

Everybody's Invited.

Latest Photo Uploaded. Just click on Aquariums - Tanking - beside Zaitmi.

More Pics Coming Up.

Plz comment.


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## Pasfur

You really need more of a rock structure, simply to help break up territory for compatibility issues with the livestock. A 25 pound order of dry rock for $75 from Marco Rocks The finest aquarium rock available, base rock, live rock, reef rock, marco rock, reef tank saltwater fish, live corals, Marco rocks, Fiji live rock, Tonga Live rock should do the trick.


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## zaitmi

Pasfur said:


> You really need more of a rock structure, simply to help break up territory for compatibility issues with the livestock. A 25 pound order of dry rock for $75 from Marco Rocks The finest aquarium rock available, base rock, live rock, reef rock, marco rock, reef tank saltwater fish, live corals, Marco rocks, Fiji live rock, Tonga Live rock should do the trick.


Which snail should i buy. My LFS has got after one month Cowry and Domo Snail. Which one is good grazer. Plz answer this fast today? Otherwise the stock might go. 


Bro My Bank Balance is in a bad shape. I have already spent a lot in my tank. For these Marco Rocks are beautiful but very expensive at this moment for me. $75 makes 4000 Indian Rupees. I will buy more Rocks after a month or so.

BTW U didn't comment on my tank looks.

(Please Note : My tank is running on Zeolite Stone and Cermic Rings).


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## Pasfur

Cowry snails are generally not reef safe. I have never heard of a Domo snail.

The tank appears to be coming along. The sand bed grain size and depth look good. I notice your water level is down. Keep an eye on that, because you don't want the salinity bouncing around. 

Why is there a strip of black tape across the top? What is the tape covering?


----------



## zaitmi

Pasfur said:


> Why is there a strip of black tape across the top? What is the tape covering?


That is no strip. Thats the cover of the aquarium. 

Any way light s are on for 10 to 12 hrs. everyday.


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## zaitmi

Thanks for commenting on my tank.

From day before yesterday both fishes are going in front of the Powerhead most of the times. R they enjoying the flow of air. 
or is it Ph problem. 

May be Ph is higher in front of the powerhead ? Mine is 7.8


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## zaitmi

Thanks for Not Commenting on my Tank.

From day before yesterday both fishes are going in front of the Powerhead most of the times. R they enjoying the flow of air. 
or is it Ph problem. 

May be Ph is higher in front of the powerhead ? Mine is 7.8

salwaterabout.com : The generally accepted pH level in a basic saltwater system is between 7.6 and 8.4, but reef tanks are a more sensitive, and therefore need to be kept at the higher end of the pH scale, 8.0 to 8.4. 

Mine is a fowlr.


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## zaitmi

Do i need to siphon the sand and clean fish detrius at this moment.


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## zaitmi

White spots found on both butterfly & damsel after coming back from office, gave them a medicine dip as told by my LFS. Let see tmrw. Damn it brothers. I am so sad. What will happen next? 

I will buy a quaratine tank soon.

Protein Skimmer arriving tmrw.


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## terryap

Well if you don't get rid of the Ich, your fish will die, and In my opion, if they pull through, I would get rid of the butterfly fish until you have a larger tank.......and get a fish suited to that size aquarium.


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## zaitmi

Hey Pasfur,

They say garlic is not effective with scientific reasons :

Please read :

http://web.archive.org/web/20080514060735/reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/index.phpasfur 

Only Hyposalinity and Copper Sulphate works.

Plz help bro.


----------



## wake49

This link is broken.

Garlic works as a great preventative measure. 

Garlic itself is not an anti-parasite medication, just as Vitamin C is not an anti-flu medication for humans. Garlic boosts a fish's immune system, helping it fight off infection and parasites. Also, feeding foods rich in oils helps a fish build it's slime coat. This has been noted as yet another _preventative_ measure of fighting disease in the home aquarium. Another benefit of Garlic is it increases a fishes attraction to the proccessed foods we feed them. Fish are more likely to eat and a well-fed fish equals a healthy fish.

Ask anyone who religously uses garlic about the health of their system. Twice a day I drop a small amount of Omega One pellets with a garlic ingredient. I haven't had an Ich outbreak since I started doing this. 

If Ich is in your system, you can use a UV sterilizer to kill the waterbourne parasites. But the infected fish (depending on how infected) are infected fish. UV's don't pull the Ich off the fish. How many spots are on the fish? How is his breathing? The further along the infection, the less likely he will make it.

Another preventative measure is purchasing a Cleaner Shrimp. These pick Ich and other parasites off the fish and help to avoid larger outbreaks. But again, too late is *too late*.

Medications like Pimafix and Copper Sulfates only stress the fish out. If your going to do Hyposalinity, you need to set up a seperate tank and Q these fish in a 1.013 water for a few weeks, then slowly raise the salinity until it is back to your Display salinity. But don't put any livestock back into the display for 90 DAYS.

Lastly, if a fish dies of Ich in your aquarium, get him out IMMEDIATELY!!! Once the Ich has killed the fish, it will be looking for another host.


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## Pasfur

zaitmi said:


> Do i need to siphon the sand and clean fish detrius at this moment.


You never siphon the sand in a properly set up marine aquarium. 

I am personally becoming lost in this thread. My guess is that you are getting some bad advice from some places (LFS?) and it is causing you to ask questions which don't fit the situation. Or, perhaps, you have not read enough threads, magazines, books, etc. I am trying to help, but I feel like we are loosing you. 

All of these problems can be summed up easily. Your pH was not stable and you still do not have a protein skimmer. Little mistakes led to big problems, and the problems are getting worse as the ich spreads.

By the way, ditto the comments Wake made about garlic.


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## zaitmi

*wake49 Reply* : Sorry for the broken link.

*Butterfly died this morning.* I immediately took it out on my fishbowl with some tank water, while he was lying flat and gasping on the tank. he died on fishbowl. i feel like killing my LFS.

No Way bro I am with the thread. yes very much.

Garlic fine bro, from day you Pasfur said to give it, i have started, though home garlic mixed with fish food twice everyday. *Damsel spots have come down a bit,* he is having home ginger mixed fish food. But colour of damsel has gone down a bit. But rubbing his body on sands and rocks most of the times.

*Pasfur reply :* *Protien Skimmer Installed* yesterday night though nothing brown is coming out yet. Okay Bro, No Siphon (Never). Plz don't get lost bro it was just a mistake, i got fooled by my LFS which most new beginners get.

Garlic products not available here so i am mixing fish food with home garlic paste.

No Way bro I am with the thread. yes very much.

All test will be repeated this Sunday and some Water replacement will be done. 


Now what do i do with the Yellow Tail Damsel now. He is alone Should i buy a quarantine tank or a big bucket would do? Do i need to remove him from the display tank?

Awaiting for your reply at the earleist brothers.


----------



## wake49

zaitmi said:


> Garlic products not available here so i am mixing fish food with home garlic paste.


This should be fine as long as there are no preservatives or foreign additives. Sometimes I chop up fresh garlic real fine to almost a paste to add to frozen food if I'm out of paste.



zaitmi said:


> Now what do i do with the Yellow Tail Damsel now. He is alone Should i buy a quarantine tank or a big bucket would do? Do i need to remove him from the display tank?


If he's the only fish in there, leave him in there. *DO NOT* treat with any copper or other chemical medication, as this will stay in your system even after you think it's gone. Keep garlic feeding and wait *at least* 90 Days after you have seen the last white spot disappear to put another fish in the Display. On the "should I buy a quarantine tank" question, the answer is *YES*. You will need this for any other fish you buy to avert this same disaster in the future.

p.s. Throw a UV sterilizer in your display tank to kill any waterbourne Ich.


----------



## zaitmi

p.s. Throw a UV sterilizer in your display tank to kill any waterbourne Ich.[/quote]

Thanks for the reply.

UV Sterilizer are very expensive here. What if i go with a quarantine tank and put my damsel over thr for a couple of weeks with hyposalinity. It will be a cheaper option and the ich will also die the main tank without fish for a couple of weeks.

Damsel colour is coming back, i think so...not confirmed.

More update tmrw.


----------



## Pasfur

zaitmi said:


> the ich will also die the main tank without fish for a couple of weeks.


Time out! This is a myth. A couple weeks is not nearly long enough for ich to die off. Recent studies are pointing to a period of nearly 90 days without a host.


----------



## zaitmi

I am so grateful to you guys for helping me.

But my question was whether to keep the Damsel in the QT OR in the display tank. You have replied for 3 months that is fine.

Damsel is doing good since yesterday with just a single ich on his dorsal fin.

Damsel Home : QT or Display Tank ?????

Plz help. Reply Today Only coz tmrw is sunday and i can only buy QT tmrw otherwise wait for 1 week. 

Thanks in Advance.


----------



## Pasfur

I would leave the Damsel in the display. You need to get a Q tank up and running anyhow, but there is no reason to move a single fish to a Q tank, introducing ich into the Q system.


----------



## zaitmi

Thanks for the quick reply. i will buy a QT tmrw. about 7 gallon paying Rs.350/- around $7 .

Hope the size is fine for a QT.


----------



## wake49

Seven gallons? I would say that's way too small. I use a 20 long.


----------



## zaitmi

*Small Room.*



wake49 said:


> Seven gallons? I would say that's way too small. I use a 20 long.


 
Well i have a small room. Should i go for it or not reply fast, a very small room i have and my wife will kill me if she finds a QT.(one more tank in my room).:twisted:

Does a UV destroys beneficial bactria alongwith the bad ones. 

What should i do plz reply fast. i can get the tank tomorrow only otherwise wait for a week.


----------



## Pasfur

I would not use anything smaller than a 10 gallon for a quarantine tank, at MINIMUM. 

No, a UV will not harm the beneficial bacteria in your aquarium. (short version of the answer to this question)


----------



## zaitmi

Thanks bro for quick. I lou u.

I will try to make a 10 gallon.


----------



## zaitmi

Bought Quarantine Tank of 11.5 gallon. 
Bought 2 thermostat heaters 1 for big tank. 1 for qt tank. 

Installed a heater in the tank with the 28 deg celcius temp. i.e 82.4 degree farhenhiet. Please note that previously no heater was installed on my tank as India is hot and humid but i used to swith on the A.C. at night and that time the temp used to come down so i decided to buy a heater. 

But now since winter is coming in Kolkata(India), i have installed a heater at 28 deg centigrade. The winter will start from December 09 till January 2010. India is hot and humid but winter stays for approx 2 to 3 months.

Damsel is doing good fed on home garlic mixed with fish food coz Garlic based fish not yet available here. Might get by the end of this week.

Hope everybody is happy.

One more thing i want to clarify that here in kolkata you dont get clown fish all the times, when it comes it gets sold too fast. So if i get a couple of ocellaris i will buy and put them in QT for a couple of months.


----------



## zaitmi

My Protien Skimmer is like Nona Air Stone Protein Skimmer. Actually this is what is available here. costed me $14 round about 700 indian rupees frommy LFS. Sufficient for 29 gallon i think.

It looks something like this.

Nano Air Wood Protein Skimmer - eBay (item 370284190406 end time Nov-09-09 00:00:37 PST)


----------



## zaitmi

*URGENT.*

Since Morning Damsel is behaving strangely rubbing his body everywhere and going in front of the powerhead frequently though i couldn't make out any white spots.

I think the ich is back. It might be the 2nd cycle of the ich. 

Pasfur why dont you allow me to put the damsel in quarantine tank for sometime. Will it be suitable to go for hyposalintity. or should i keep on feeding home made garlic mixed with fish food in the main tank only as you said earlier.

*Please reply fast as the white spots might come back when i reach home tonight from my office.*


*I have to take some actions.*


----------



## Pasfur

I see no reason to introduce ich into the Q tank. The behavior you are watching is expected. I have very little doubt that ich will make an appearance again as the Damsel fights off this infection. Personally, I would not be concerned at this point.

Moving the fish to the Q tank would be a stressful experience. Plus, the Q tank does not have a mature biofilter yet.


----------



## wake49

Pasfur is right. It is better to see him scratching than to stay in one spot laborously breathing. Keep up with Garlic feeding and keep the parameters stable in your tank. What kind of foods are you feeding? Make sure you keep your feeding pattern regular. I prefer to have my wife tap in a few pellets when the lights come on, I throw a little frozen food in when I get home, and tap a few pellets in at night. This would be overkill for one fish of course, so maybe a couple of pellets once a day, and maybe frozen or fresh every other day, for example. Keeping your fish on a schedule will help him stay healthy, IMO.


----------



## zaitmi

okay gr8.

but did u checked out protein skimmer, link to get the idea of my protein skimmer.


----------



## wake49

I did. I think it should do the job. I see it sits directly in the aquarium and uses the airstone to produce the bubbles for foam fractitioning. Is there an adjustment on the airstone to increase or decrease bubble production?


----------



## Pasfur

That skimmer is certainly smaller than what I'd normally recommend, but if you are sticking with a light fish load and very hardy fish, you should be fine.


----------



## zaitmi

plz answer this one : how do i start the Qt. is thr any link what do i need for a qt apart from tank and saltwater.

I cant afford more than this Protein Skimmer bro...

Mine would be :

Clown (Ocellaris), Chromis, Gobies, Psudochromis, 1 long tentacle anemone, 
(and later i will just try to squeeze in a red star fish if u guys allow).

Test results : 

Ammonia : 0 ppm
Nitrate : 25 ppm (Water replaced 10 %)
Calcium : 460 ppm
Kh : 9 dkh
Salinity 1.023
Temp : 85 deg farhenheit.
ph : 7.8 (added ph buffer 4 times but ph is not coming up it remains at 7.8.)
This is the italian product which is available here in India http://www.prodacinternational.it/english/index.php
*Why the ph buffer is not working even after 4 dosing after every 2 hrs as instructed in the product leaflet)?*

How r the results.

I can see lots of green hair type of algae on all my rocks .

UV Streilizer will be future purchase in December.


----------



## zaitmi

wake49 : No, bubble production is standard. it cannot be adjusted.

Aquarium Photo updated with Protein Skimmer. Plz have a look with zoooom.


----------



## wake49

This skimmer will be *very* dependant on the level of the water in the tank. You have to make sure that if you lose water from evaporation that you replace it regularly. It looks like the water in your tank is a little below the line as it is. 

As far as pH: Buy a new test kit. Maybe the one you have is faulty. All other results look fine; temp looks a little high. Are you dosing calcium & Alk? What do you use? 

As far as the Algae: You need to get more flow directed at your rocks. When they get dirty (detritus and silt settle on the surface), it makes a good place for algae to grow. Also, check your source water, is it high in Phosphate?


----------



## zaitmi

*No More Zeolite & Ceramic in Top Filter.*

i have 2 ph test kits both are giving same results.

Okay for rocks water flow. i would do that.:lol:

What abt QT how do i start that ? I have an internal filter in the cupboard (should i wash it and start using it), the last one pasfur knows about it.

How to chk Phosphate wihtout buying any kit?

*BTW I am removing the zeolite stones and ceramic rings from the top filter, leaving just the white sponge foam from tonight.(As Pasfur prescribed earlier). *

*They might increase phosphate which might lead to a lot of hair algae.*


*Or i will remove the top filter itself (Plz help) which creates a lot of problem to open the top cover and accidently twice switched on the power which made all my electrical outlets wet at the back of my tank.*

*Still to learn a lot......:roll:*


----------



## wake49

Actually, the Live Rock, Live Sand and Protein Skimmer are suffecient filtration for a 29 gallon tank. The HOT filter you are using most likely will just trap detritus and that eventually breaks down into Nitates and Phosphates. This is one of the causes of nuisance algaes as they feed on these nutrients. You will also have a hard time maintaing proper Alk and Calcium, as these nutrients intefere with the buffer system. 

The only way I know how to test for Phosphates is with a test kit. I had a hard time finding a Phosphate test kit on the shelf here in CT, I can imagine how hard it will be in India... What is your source water? Is it Well-water, or city processed tap?


----------



## zaitmi

What abt QT how do i start that ? I have an internal filter in the cupboard (should i wash it and start using it), the last one pasfur knows about it. Okay send me a link.

I use Kent RO/DI Water Purifier(for our drinking purpose) and for the tank too. But their is always a fight in my house regarding drinking water shortage. They shout on me and tell me to use tap water.

*BTW I have removed the zeolite stones and ceramic rings from the top filter, leaving just the white sponge foam from last night. *

*Should i remove this also, as recommended by you guys. *
*Okay i will remove the top filter from tonight.*


Lets search for phosphate test kit.

Mine would be :

Clown (Ocellaris), Chromis, Gobies, Psudochromis, 1 long tentacle anemone, 
(and later i will just try to squeeze in a red star fish if u guys allow).


----------



## zaitmi

Bought a book : 
*Saltwater Aquarium Setup & Care*

(Paperback - Dec 2005)
by 
*David E. Boruchowitz*

here is the link :

Flipkart.com: Saltwater Aquarium Setup & Care: David E. Boruchowitz: Books Buy David E Boruchowitz in India


----------



## Pasfur

Don't waste your money on a phosphate test kit. You don't need it.

I would use the hang on filter with ceramic rings for the Q tank.

STOP ADDING pH BUFFER!!!!!!!!!! You are scaring me on this. pH is the quickest and easiest way to make an entire system crash. If it isn't moving, do water changes. NEVER add anything to increase pH. Your buffering is to increase alkalinity, and / or calcium. If alkalinity and calcium are correct, then water changes are needed to re balance the buffering ions to increase pH.


----------



## zaitmi

Okay.

I will start my my QT Tank from tmrw addin a shrimp which is lying on fridge freezer since a couple of weeks in the saltwater Q.tank - salinity 1.023. then after checking ammonia first 3 to 4 days then i will go for nitrate test. 
Then after 10 days i will add fish in the QT. A couple of ocellaris (true percula in the tank). Those fishes are already in Quarantine Tank with my LFS from last week and he has promised me that he wont sell it to me until he finds the fishes are safe i.e. he will be selling me on the 14th November of this month as on 15th i will be leaving the city for some work and coming back on 24th November. *But i have to buy those fishes on 14th otherwise they might get sold*. Its so difficult to get saltwater fishes in Kolkata, India. In the meantime my younger sister will be taking care of both the tanks (QT and Display one).

*Buying fishes on 14th i have to speed up my cycle for which i am using shrimp. but what else to increase the nitrogen cycle. Help reqd.*

I have 2 filters (1 internal and 1 top filter) for ceramic rings i can use top filter but what about the internal sponge filter(which is lying in the cupboard dry for weeks) shall i use it for bacteria growth inside my tank. *or i should only use only one filter.*

*Plz help.*

Removed the top filter from the tank.

Damsel is doing fine.


----------



## zaitmi

my ph is 8 ppm at the moment.

Plz help with fastest QT Tank. Just 8 days left to add fish. ?


----------



## Pasfur

This isn't going to work. There are huge problems with this. First, the Q tank is not going to be ready in 8 days. Second, you can't buy fish and then leave town!!! You need to be home to observe the fish and react to the needs of the fish. The entire purpose of Q is to have an observation period, which means you need to be present to observe! Unless your sister is an experienced marine aquarist, then trust me, you do NOT want to go down this road.


----------



## wake49

Pasfur said:


> Don't waste your money on a phosphate test kit. You don't need it.


I usually test my source water every month with a TDS meter and Phosphate Kit. Since he mentioned algae I figured his best action was to look at his source water. What could this algae be attributed to? Just trying to nip it in the bud before it gets out of control.



zaitmi said:


> I will start my my QT Tank from tmrw addin a shrimp which is lying on fridge freezer since a couple of weeks in the saltwater Q.tank - salinity 1.023. then after checking ammonia first 3 to 4 days then i will go for nitrate test.
> Then after 10 days i will add fish in the QT. A couple of ocellaris (true percula in the tank). Those fishes are already in Quarantine Tank with my LFS from last week and he has promised me that he wont sell it to me until he finds the fishes are safe i.e. he will be selling me on the 14th November of this month as on 15th i will be leaving the city for some work and coming back on 24th November. *But i have to buy those fishes on 14th otherwise they might get sold*. Its so difficult to get saltwater fishes in Kolkata, India. In the meantime my younger sister will be taking care of both the tanks (QT and Display one).
> 
> *Buying fishes on 14th i have to speed up my cycle for which i am using shrimp. but what else to increase the nitrogen cycle. Help reqd.*


Zai, stop trying to rush this proccess. Fish come and go. Put a deposit on the fish at the LFS and leave them there. He has the saltwater experience to keep these guys alive for two weeks. There is an old saying in this hobby, "*Only bad things happen fast.*" This two weeks you are gone will be a perfect time for the Q tank to cycle, and the display to start healing from the recent ich outbreak. 

Your tank is a mini-enviroment. It takes time for it to mature. Our oceans took millions of years to mature. Give it time. I promise if you are patient that good things will come.


----------



## zaitmi

*Clowns Delayed*

I have 2 filters (1 internal and 1 top filter) for ceramic rings can i use top filter, but what about the internal sponge filter(which is lying in the cupboard dry for weeks) shall i use it for bacteria growth inside my tank. *or i should only use only one filter. Shrimp will be added tmrw.*

*Plz help.*


Okaaaay. guys thanks for slowing down the process:evil:. just kidding:lol:

Everything gets delayed.:thankyou:

Things will come UP after 24th Nov 2009.:greenyay: 

But i will be in touch with everybody.

Is thr a chat tmrw afternoon with Pasfur.

Observing Fish is very very important.
Paying LFS in Advance is a good idea.


----------



## Pasfur

wake49 said:


> I usually test my source water every month with a TDS meter and Phosphate Kit. Since he mentioned algae I figured his best action was to look at his source water. What could this algae be attributed to? Just trying to nip it in the bud before it gets out of control.


I'm an idiot. :frustrated: I didn't realize you were testing source water for phosphates. This is a good idea. I thought you were testing aquarium water, which really doesn't tell you much, because phosphates are often used up by the algae faster than they are input, resulting in a "false" zero test result.

No chat tomorrow for me. I will visiting the zoo with family. So, by the time I leave, I will be banging my head into the wall with frustration at the aquatics area.


----------



## zaitmi

is everything fine. Whom r u replying Pasfur.:roll:

i didnt understood anything.:roll::roll::roll:

I have 2 filters (1 internal and 1 top filter) for ceramic rings can i use top filter, but what about the internal sponge filter(which is lying in the cupboard dry for weeks) shall i use it for bacteria growth inside my tank. *or i should only use only one filter. Shrimp will be added tmrw.*

*Plz help.*


----------



## Pasfur

I would use the top filter with ceramic rings and use the sponge internally.


----------



## zaitmi

Okay. That means i will be using both my filters, internal filter(with Sponge) inside & top filter outside with ceramic rings media.

BTW i have liquid pouch pack which was provided with ceramic rings and it says happy bacteria swimming can i add that in the QT for fast bacteria growth.

Okay next saturday we all might have a chat enjoy the zoo and upload some pics from the zoo aquarium.


----------



## zaitmi

The STINK in Back just after removing the Top filter within a couple of days. The top filter was running with zeolite stones and ceramic rings. Should i put back the Top filter. Will the damsel suffocate and die due to stink? Urgent help reqd.

Dead shrimp added in QT with internal filter running. What abt Top filter, whr to put it(i.e. In Display or QT), i have only one, i cant buy anymore friends.


----------



## Pasfur

zaitmi said:


> The STINK in Back just after removing the Top filter within a couple of days. The top filter was running with zeolite stones and ceramic rings. Should i put back the Top filter. Will the damsel suffocate and die due to stink? Urgent help reqd.
> 
> Dead shrimp added in QT with internal filter running. What abt Top filter, whr to put it(i.e. In Display or QT), i have only one, i cant buy anymore friends.


This goes back to the original question on this thread. You should not have used the Top filter to begin with. Doing so, and adding the ceramic rings, disrupted the natural process of the live rock seeding in the aquarium. Are you getting an ammonia reading? If you are, then put the Top filter back on the display and slowly remove the ceramic rings and zeolite stones, a little each day.

Another possible issue is activated carbon use. Activated carbon removes odor causing organic compounds. Perhaps you simply need to add some activated carbon.

Honestly, these sort of issues are what happen when you do not set things up correctly to being with. This is what becomes frustrating to the new marine hobbyist, and certainly to those of us posting here attempting to help people.


----------



## zaitmi

Okay. Will check the ammonia today. if result 0 then i will install top filter with activated carbon for 3 days.:roll:

Sorry for the above but i am in touch with u guys every single day and almost doing everything what u (all) are recomending. If i did not followed up i would have left this forum much earlier.:-(

Thanks for the help.:lol:


----------



## zaitmi

Got a TDS Meter from a friend for 1 day. Will check for tankwater, tapwater, and RO Water. 

I will post the results tmrw.


----------



## wake49

zaitmi said:


> Got a TDS Meter from a friend for 1 day. Will check for tankwater, tapwater, and RO Water.
> 
> I will post the results tmrw.


Testing tankwater with a TDS meter won't really help. Salt is, at least in your tank water, a dissolved solid. Your tankwater will read through the roof. Test your source water (tap & RO) and post the results.


----------



## zaitmi

TDS Results : 

RO Water : *75 ppm*
Tap Water : *295 ppm*

*Is my RO water very high in TDS?*

Now regarding the smell which is thr sometime and vanishes sometimes but even if it is thr its a bit lighter smell unlike earlier. So i did not install the top filter.
Or should i run it for a couple of days for no smell at all? plz reply this one?
Powerhead was a bit lower earlier now i have tilted it towards the surface which is swirling a lot of water(Yes the left one as u can see in the picture is now tilted towards the surface). May be that is the reason that the smell has gone down.


Display Tank : Ammonia : 0.5 ppm but while swirling the chemical in test tube it stayed(very light yellow colour) for a minute then vanished and became milky white which is normal result. 

Same thing happend with QT, Does ammonia vanishes off after showing the colour in few seconds. I have taken out the prawn after 30 hours from the QT. The water is smelly in QT and light brown in colour due to prawn.

Now what. Plz reply all the answers one by one as i am eagerly waiting. I need help?

Most of the times bro, i find some of my questions are answered and some are not.Why Bro ?


----------



## zaitmi

TDS Results : 

RO Water : *75 ppm*
Tap Water : *295 ppm*

*Is my RO water very high in TDS?:-?*

Now regarding the smell which is thr sometime and vanishes sometimes but even if it is thr its a bit lighter smell unlike earlier. So i did not install the top filter.
Or should i run it for a couple of days for no smell at all? plz reply this one?
Powerhead was a bit lower earlier now i have tilted it towards the surface which is swirling a lot of water(Yes the left one as u can see in the picture is now tilted towards the surface). May be that is the reason that the smell has gone down.


Display Tank : Ammonia : 0.5 ppm but while swirling the chemical in test tube it stayed(very light yellow colour) for a minute then vanished and became milky white which is normal result. :roll:

Same thing happend with QT, Does ammonia vanishes off after showing the colour in few seconds. I have taken out the prawn after 30 hours from the QT. The water is smelly in QT and light brown in colour due to prawn. After test i threw some flakes (food) in QT.

Now what. Plz reply all the answers one by one as i am eagerly waiting. I need help?:shock:

Most of the times bro, i find some of my questions are answered and some are not.Why Bro ?


----------



## mollies

You also may want to check your water temp as if it gets to hot will start to stink. anything over 87 degrees fern.


----------



## mollies

I just sat here and read this whole Thread over the last Houre. And is all i have seen is, I want want want, Hury lets get it done. Ok from experince. Slow down a bit. Your shrimp Died because you rushed him into an uncycled tank. Your sailfin tang, and angel same thing. Now your damsel is paying the price. IN MY HONIST OPINION IS TO START OVER, LISTEN TO PASFUR. If i were you i would Unplug every thing, drain the tank. put your live rock in buckets with the tank water. Mix your water put it back in the tank. Listen to pasfur from there. Put your live rock back in with all of the test kits at hand. Absultly no fish yet. Plug everything in And keep your temp at 76 to 80 Degrees no higher or lower. Then you would wait at least 2 months before adding a fish. If you do all of this you will appreciat every thing you have worked for and stop wasting money. Pasfur is great at what he is talken bout. So are the others that have try to help you out............ 3 steps forward 12 back.......... Im not trying to be a A** but Some one needs to say it plane an simple to you befor you end up wasting alot of time and money. As you know everything is expensive. Sorry That is MHO. I hope the best of luck to you and your tank. But please indeed slow down and listen befor you make a fast unthoughtfull decion. 
BRAD/ mollies


----------



## wake49

Your RO water TDS reading is high. You want that number somewhere around zero. My RO/DI water is 0 ppm.

As far as the ammonia test goes, what brand are you using? I use API and my tests are usually a very pale yellow when they read zero, and move towards green as I get ammonia readings (which I haven't seen in a very long time BTW). 

As far as the top filter: run it with activated carbon, like Pas said. This should help with the smell and pull out any extra organic waste the skimmer didn't get.


----------



## zaitmi

I am going slow.

Okay I will try to change the membrane of my Kent Water purifier.

Ammonia Test Kit : Prodac International from Italy. Google it if u like.

Will run the top filter for 3 days from tonight.

Thanks everyone who is in this thread.


----------



## zaitmi

Last night Installed with top filter with only activated carbon. Will run it for 3 days.

What is this in my rocks? it is not hair algae. It is light brown in colour, covering the rocks like cotton thread or cotton hair ? cant explain it? whr can i get more info regarding bad types of algae.It is only in rocks not anywhere else.


----------



## wake49

Can you post some pics?


----------



## zaitmi

wake49 said:


> Can you post some pics?


 
Yeah sure, alongwith the QT .


----------



## zaitmi

Photos uploaded just have a look at them in aquariums. QT is also thr.

While watching rocks u guys can see it brown specially in photo no : 5. though not clear. its like dirty brown. 

I just removed some(a couple of small rocks) of them lightly with a brush and they started falling like dirty dust.

Activated Carbon running. the smell is gone and the water is crystal clear. Shall i remove it tonight or wait for 
1 more day that will make it 3 days. 

Thanks Pasfur. so that means everytime the smell comes back i need to run a carbon form a couple of days.


----------



## zaitmi

This algae is spoiling the looks of my beautiful rock. Plz help. As u can see in the tank the rocks are looking brown instead of real colours which purple and light green. R the algae temporay? did u guys make out anything?


----------



## zaitmi

Nobody replied so i removed the activated carbon filter last night which ran for 2 days. the water is fresh, 
clean and odourless.

Nobody replied regarding algae instead of posting the photos. i waited for 24 hours.

Let it be, let it run like that but it is covering my beautiful rocks like dirty mud type of algae which can be removed from a brush.

Shall i remove it. ?


----------



## wake49

It sounds like some kind of diatom bloom maybe? I couldn't quite make it out on the rocks in the pics. Have you seen a Diatom bloom yet? How long ago? You did have an Ammonia reading recently, maybe you had a mini-cycle...


----------



## zaitmi

Thanks. Yes Wake49, the diatom bloom has come and gone, didnt u read the whole post, its very interesting to read. U must do it if u didnt. Mini cycle might be ? No idea bro.

These algae are dirty green military dress in colour which is spoiling the look of my rocks as u can see the picture in the left.

BTW whr is Pasfur. I am worried. L.T.N.R.


----------



## wake49

I have read the whole post, I stalked it for almost a month before I interjected...

I am saying mini-cycle because there is no stability in this tank. Every time you change something, you compromise the stability. Taking off the filter, adding a filter, adding rock, dieing fish, etc...these contirbute to fluctuations in bacterias and levels of organic compunds.

The hair algae can be contributed to the HOT filter, as those filter pads break ammonias into nitrites and nitrites into nitrates. The nitrates stay in the system (what isn't broken down by the Live Rock) and are a good food (along with phosphate) for algaes. 

(Nitrates also have an adverse effect on the buffering system in your tank, read up on that here.)


----------



## zaitmi

Okay, i will read it.

BTW i am leaving tmrw and will be back by the end of next week but i will be in touch with u guys from thr also. The tanks will be taken by my younger sister.

Qt is running with internal filter and top filter with ceramic rings. Display tank is running with protein skimmer, live rock and live sand. though no copepods have been seen yet. it might take sometime.

Damsel is doing fine.


----------



## zaitmi

Hey guys, i am out of my city. 

Just to discuss that 2 powerheads would be too much in 10 gallon QT, i think 1 internal filter powerhead and 1 top filter powerhead,
The smell was coming back, i think u guys helped a lot specially Pasfur, i am really grateful to him, but my basic problem remains thr, the stink which is not solved till date. It goes when i run zeolite stone, ceramic rings or activated carbon but comes back after 48hrs when they are removed. Its 3rd month of my tank. God help me. I am really depressed friends.


----------



## Pasfur

This is just unheard of. I need a brainstorming session on this. Does anyone have any ideas on what is causing this smell? 

What is the ammonia test result?


----------



## mrdemin

Pasfur said:


> This is just unheard of. I need a brainstorming session on this. Does anyone have any ideas on what is causing this smell?
> 
> What is the ammonia test result?


I didn't read the WHOLE thread, but didnt someone attribute this to the high temp? Didn't see anyone disagree which is why I bring this up. (I have absolutely no exp btw)
And the OP said the carbon removed the smell, can't there be something in the tank bringing it back?


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## zaitmi

How can i ckh ammonia now, i am out of city will be back on 24th, but last i checked it was almost nothing 0.5ppm or not even that, d ammonia vanished within seconds. Read earlier posts.

Is thr a temp. concern, may be india is hot and humid. It will go beyond 100deg f during summer.

Temp stays almost 85 deg farhenheit most of the times.


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## wake49

How is your Protein Skimmer working? How often are you emptying the Skimmer? 

How new is the Live Rock? Was it cured?

I am still in belief that the tank is going through mini-cycles every time you remove the filter, then put it back on, then remove it again. I think that there is a certain amount of ammonias and dissolved organics that get mixed into the system (from the changing between filter and no filter), and bacteria die-off as a result of this.
Every time you use the carbon it is absorbing these organics and what not, just as a carbon filter on a tap system makes your water taste better.

I think you should run carbon almost religously, but make sure you clean the carbon out religously as well.


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## zaitmi

pasfur reply : plz start brain storming session at the immediately.

Wake49 reply: Protein skimmer no output only plain water white foam.
Live rock was stinking slightly when bought earlier. Mentioned on 1st page of this thread.
Okay might be mini cycle. Wat abt. activated carbon running religiously? R u telling me to run it 24hrs. Everyday.Or for how long?


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## wake49

You need to adjust that Protein Skimmer so that it is producing a thick brown muck in the collection cup. This is called Skimmate. Good Skimmate is coffee colored or maybe a little lighter, and kind of thick in texture. And it smells, when you empty the collection cup.


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## Pasfur

TerryAnn mentioned that hydrogen sulfide could be causing the smell. That is certainly possible, but the hydrogen sulfide would have to originate from somewhere. Possibly die off in the sand? Or rock? Could the rock have been live, then dry, then placed in water again? Perhaps some life still inside the live rock dying? A dirty sponge filter could smell of hydrogen sulfide. If there was an undergravel filter plate and the water flow was cut off, then hydrogen sulfide smell would certainly happen. Has water flow been cut off in some way? On this top fin, have you turned it on and then off and then on and then off? If water became stagnant and was turned back on you would get a hydrogen sulfide smell.


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## terryap

I noticed above you also mentioned the live rock smelled a bit when you bought it, so I am thinking it was not fully cured.....when I bought mine, I had no odor at all.
and am wondering since I deal with India all the time (Mumbai and Delhi most) I know that power outages and power irregularities are common ....unless in your part of India this is less common...we don't have many imports from Kolkata so am not sure of this region...., so am wondering if this added to the stink, adding more die off on the rock?

1) very warm temp (from your earlier posts)
2) uncured live rock
3) possible power outage or outages and irregularities.

I could see the above adding to the smell ?

Maybe try and rearrange your live rock, lift it and maybe move the sand under it.

Just a thought


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## zaitmi

terryap said:


> I noticed above you also mentioned the live rock smelled a bit when you bought it, so I am thinking it was not fully cured.....when I bought mine, I had no odor at all.
> and am wondering since I deal with India all the time (Mumbai and Delhi most) I know that power outages and power irregularities are common ....unless in your part of India this is less common...we don't have many imports from Kolkata so am not sure of this region...., so am wondering if this added to the stink, adding more die off on the rock?
> 
> 1) very warm temp (from your earlier posts)
> 2) uncured live rock
> 3) possible power outage or outages and irregularities.
> 
> I could see the above adding to the smell ?
> 
> Maybe try and rearrange your live rock, lift it and maybe move the sand under it.
> 
> Just a thought


 
i stay in kokata, a metropolitan city of india in the eastern side, u guys must be knowing the name Calcutta. 
Okay now regarding Power Cuts Yes they happen in india a lot, though last week i have connected my tank power supplies with the generator so if the current goes everything will be started within 10 - 15mins. 
My powercuts was sometimes 1/2 hour to 1 hour to 2 hr twice or thrice a week. Is this the problem.Might be.

Does a powerhead cannot be stopped for this much long? Okay now it wont happen due to generator.

Lets wait and see if this was the problem. 

Plz reply at the earliest.


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## willieturnip

I'm actually very angry having just read the whole thread and am amazed that people are still trying to help you. In actual fact I don't think anybody can, it's about helping yourself. 

You blatantly did NO research before plunging into the unknown and setting up the tank. I've been fish keeping for nearly 10 years and have had a genuine fear for saltwater tanks until recently!

Did you think it was going to be easy? 

Your far too impatient and it's cost several fish their lives. You take matters into your own hands, buy ridiculously unsuitable fish and listen to nobody until the inevitable happens. Then you come running back for advice with your tail between your legs. 
You even tried to blame your LFS for your tank crashing?!

Why on earth have you even gone marine? I know they're great, but you can't do it on a budget. As sad as it is, you need a decent amount of cash. I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was something integral to the marine system and you just flat out couldn't afford it. 

Sorry if I have come off as out of line or a bad guy, but I'm not. You are.



Now for something constructive.

Restart the tank again. Listen to the advice your given and stick to what the members here say RELIGIOUSLY. 

The members of this forum know more than any LFS and that's a fact with very few exceptions. The members of this forum aren't trying to sell you anything either. In fact pasfur actually tried to GIVE you an alkalinity kit!



Sorry if this has upset you in any way, and if I'm way off the mark I apologize. If indeed your LFS has completely done you over, then I am VERY sympathetic towards you. It's not unheard of and it's really not cool. 

I wish you the best of luck and would love to see the tank thrive!


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## zaitmi

Thanks a lot for readind the thread & Thanks for advice willieturnip(though very rude). But why should i start the tank again. Its okay. I just need to wait to add fish. Pasfur has told me that bro, so the ich goes away. Monetary i am giving everything i can, so whats wrong with d cash. My tank will be completing 3rd month and that would be great. I just wont start again. Pasfur never told me. What abt stink? Do u know d answer? U r in this profession for last 10 years. U must have gone this. Plz read again my thread and solve it out if u can. Let see how experience u r.

Can i add a couple of perculas in my QT at this moment for 1.5 month? Only after checking ammonia & nitrates.

Plz reply.


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## willieturnip

No no no.

If you could keep a pair of clowns in a small QT tank for an extended period of time then why the heck would you have so many problems with your display tank?!

WAIT 90 DAYS THEN GO FROM THERE!


In the mean time, research algae scrubbers. One would perfectly fit the bill here. They are cheap and easy to build and many people have replaced their skimmers with them. 

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...powerful-nitrate-phosphate-remover-diy-18000/


On the smell front, how deep is your sand bed? I'm thinking that if it's 2-4 inches it could be trapping detritus and generating huge amounts hydrogen sulphide, which flipping stinks!


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## wake49

I agree with Willie. Patience is one of the most vital tools in this hobby. Address the problems in the tank and then worry about fish. The stink has a root. We need to find that root.


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## willieturnip

Sorry about the blasphemy and thanks for sorting it aunt kymmie. Getting a bit aggravated and forgot it could be offensive.


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## zaitmi

90 days ich ends on 15th jan. Till then if i get fish now, i will keep them QT. 

Okay i just came back in Kolkata today and i can see again some brown algae in sand, glass and rock. Its diatom bloom again or its water quality concern. I am using RO filter purified water for drinking purpose in my home. The temp is 81.6 deg farhenhiet. Its winter here in India.

Plz help regarding brown algae, should i go for DIY.


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## molliefan09

i hav been following this thread since the beginning.....Willieturnip and pasfur have both told you to not get anymore fish until you figure out and get your tank straightened out. Why would you get a fish just to keep it in QT for so long ??? and how do you know everything is going to be stable enough in your display on january 15th to beable to move these fish over?????? I would NOT purchase anymore fish untill after your 90 day mark. I dont know how it works over there but here in the states you can put a deposit on a fish and the lfs will hold it for you. If you are rushing to buy fish because you arent sure when the next time they will be available then talk to them about putting a deposit down


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## wake49

zaitmi said:


> 90 days ich ends on 15th jan. Till then if i get fish now, i will keep them QT.
> 
> Okay i just came back in Kolkata today and i can see again some brown algae in sand, glass and rock. Its diatom bloom again or its water quality concern. I am using RO filter purified water for drinking purpose in my home. The temp is 81.6 deg farhenhiet. Its winter here in India.
> 
> Plz help regarding brown algae, should i go for DIY.


You know how to be successful in this hobby? Be patient.

You know how you get Patience? Wait for it.

Please. One step at a time. Stop worrying about Jan 15 and start worrying about today. Don't buy any fish. Get your tank stable. Mollie is right. What if something else happens?

As for the brown algae: I think that constantly messing with the tank is muddying up the water. Start addressing problems and leave it to heal.


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## zaitmi

Thanks guys. I luv u all bro for helping me.

The LFS here dont believe in any deposit. They will sell it immediately to any customer who is paying a bit more. They are totally cheaters when it comes to fishes. They will sell me an ill fish if i give advance and sell the good ones to others. Saltwater fishes are very difficult to get in India, specially in Kolkata. Even if u see it somewhere it gets sold very fast. Saltwater fishes are considered Rare Species in Kolkata. Try to understand friends. It not me here who is in hurry, but the circumstances makes me like that.

Can anyone suggest me a bottle of branded Phosphate Remover Kit.

DIY was cheap but my wife wont allow me. Short of Space in my home brothers.

Thanks a lot everybody who is concerned. BTW Whr is Pasfur? Long time no Post from him.


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## aunt kymmie

willieturnip said:


> Sorry about the blasphemy and thanks for sorting it aunt kymmie. Getting a bit aggravated and forgot it could be offensive.


No problem, thanks for understanding why I did the edit. 

Zaitmi: While S/W fishes are rare in India and I can understand you wanting to "jump" on the next purchase, what's the point if the *new* fish isn't going to do well in your tank? Another fish will come along, they always do...


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## zaitmi

*Can anyone suggest me a bottle of branded Phosphate Remover Kit.*
*or *
*a Brown Algae Remover product . *

*Can a UV sterilizer will solve algae problem.*

*What if i go straight and buy a UV sterilizer and not use these kits. *

*Awaiting for replies.*

More Photos will be uploaded soon.


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## zaitmi

can anyone suggest me a good book for FOWLR or Marine Aquarium.

How are these books : 











*The New Marine Aquarium: Step-by-step Setup & Stocking Guide*

(Paperback - 1999/05/01)
by 
*Michael D. Paletta*

(Author)Write a Review

*The Conscientious Marine Aquarist: A Commonsense Handbook For Successful Saltwater Hobbyists*

(Hardcover - 2008/06/03)
by 
*Robert Fenner*


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## wake49

I have never read either, but give it a shot. I tend to read articles by Randy Holmes-Farley, along with other online articles.


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## zaitmi

*Can anyone suggest me a bottle of branded Phosphate Remover Kit.*

*Can anyone suggest me a good book for FOWLR or Marine Aquarium.*

*Can a UV sterilizer will solve algae problem.*

*What if i go straight and buy a UV sterilizer and not use these kits. *

*Plz help.*


*Awaiting for replies.*


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## Pasfur

zaitmi said:


> Thanks a lot everybody who is concerned. BTW Whr is Pasfur? Long time no Post from him.


I have made a personal decision to longer participate in this thread. I am not enjoying the discussion, and am becoming frustrated by the progression of the conversation. It really does not appear that the experience of our team is being utilized.


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## zaitmi

Pasfur said:


> I have made a personal decision to longer participate in this thread. I am not enjoying the discussion, and am becoming frustrated by the progression of the conversation. It really does not appear that the experience of our team is being utilized.


didnt expected this. it came to me like a shock. i am so depressed that i think i will quit this hobby.

plz help me guys, i am broke.


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## molliefan09

you did this to yourself zatimi. pasfur and the others spent A LOT of time trying to help you. we would hate to see you quit this hobby. Marine aquariums are not cheap by any means and cutting corners isnt an option here. This is why i have yet to attempt marine, plus i am new to even the freshwater hobby. IMPO you need to not quit, but put it on hold, gather some books, do your research and re-read this thread as many times as needed to see what mistakes you have made and NOT make them again. Also in re-reading, take the advice given to you and use it. if you do all these things you may end being successful at keeping a marine aquarium. But if you dont it will fail again and again and it will be more money wasted.


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## willieturnip

How can you afford a UV sterilizer and not an alkalinity test?

I'm not surprised that pasfur has bailed and I'm not sure why you are either.

You don't need books, you have the internet.

Don't quit, just postpone things for a bit. You need to leave the tank for a few months for the ich to settle down anyway. 

Have you got enough rock (over 1lb a gallon) in your tank? If not this is a good time to add some ocean rock as base and let it seed for the next few months.


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## zaitmi

Okay guys thanks. i will stay.

*There is no smell in the tank from the last week since i have come back*. I think the die offs of rock are gone. Now water is fine with some ocean smell. Last day i scrubbed manually Brown algae from the rocks and stirred the sand a bit. They are beautiful rocks with some deep red algae growing in them as well as purple and green. Water replaced 10%. I do water replacement fortnightly. i.e. twice a month.

Damsel is growing bigger and eating more, doing fine.

Everything is going positive in the tank the rocks the smell the fish. I just need to wait. A bit.


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## zaitmi

1 strawberry dotty back is available with my LFS. 
1 green chromis is also available with him.


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## zaitmi

Plz read page 17 last post.


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## wake49

Nobody on this forum (who has read this post from the start) will give you a go ahead on that. You haven't shown any patience, haven't listened to anything we've suggested and you have a tendency to do things on your timetable. I understand why you are asking; because you want us to tell you "yes, add the fish." But we aren't going to do that. I will not endorse you adding a fish until somewhere in January. Period.


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## willieturnip

I agree with wake.


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## molliefan09

this thread is ultimately pointless at this point......the people who are most knowledgable on this topic have spent far too much time trying to help you to no avail.....after everything, here you are zatimi, once again asking about adding fish......it does not matter if your damsel is doing great and the smell is gone. unless you want to waste more money on more fish that will probably not make it....then by all means go a head....but not with the approval of anyone here. Like i said before, i know nothing about properly maintaining a marine aquarium....if i have learned anything from this thread it is how NOT to keep a marine aquarium. You made your first mistake when you decided to go marine without researching. Google is a wonderful thing and can give you lots of useful information right at your finger tips and you ignored it...

as said once....this thread is pointless


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## terryap

Zaitmi, why do you keep telling everyone about the fish available at your LFS, when it is clear, no one on this forum will agree that you should run and get it (them)
I am actually starting to find this whole thread comical, as you do the complete opposite that everyone tells you and then you write about it??? am starting to wonder if it is intentional?? would be the only explanation I can understand.


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## zaitmi

molliefan09 said:


> this thread is ultimately pointless at this point......the people who are most knowledgable on this topic have spent far too much time trying to help you to no avail.....after everything, here you are zatimi, once again asking about adding fish......it does not matter if your damsel is doing great and the smell is gone. unless you want to waste more money on more fish that will probably not make it....then by all means go a head....but not with the approval of anyone here. Like i said before, i know nothing about properly maintaining a marine aquarium....if i have learned anything from this thread it is how NOT to keep a marine aquarium. You made your first mistake when you decided to go marine without researching. Google is a wonderful thing and can give you lots of useful information right at your finger tips and you ignored it...
> 
> as said once....this thread is pointless


 
What is pointless. Everything is good overhere. i am not adding any fish now. i was just discussing to be in the thread. I am only waiting for the ich to go off. It will be worth the wait i know. Everbody learn from their mistakes. I just added once fish, thats all. Never again i would repeat that. 

I am not buying any fishes now, it was just a discussion.

Dont loose your temper, be cool guys.


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## zaitmi

1 red cucumber. 1 Green cleaner shrimp. Available with my LFS now but wont be thr lon enough.

I hope i can buy these now coz they are not fishes. If only u guys say yes.

I am not in a hurry guys.


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## wake49

No.

Are you mocking us? Why do you keep asking?


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## willieturnip

Yes you can add those. Your tanks in great shape and can support anything you want it to. How about a mako shark? Add a big shoal of yellow tangs, they would look good. Add some big emperor angelfish and some corals with large polyps too.

Is this just a big, elaborate joke? Please tell me it is..


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## terryap

Like I said, getting comical.....


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## zaitmi

Thanks everybody. Its fine i will wait. No more additions for the time being. But just dont be rude to me. I am a newbie in this profession.

Okay now for the phosphate, its coming back again slowly on the rocks. I think it will go, it all happend due to top filter running with ceramic rings and zeolite stones though Pasfur warned me but i didnt listen to him at that time. Now i am paying for that. Anyways hope it goes off soon. 

Can i use phosphate remover.


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## zaitmi

What abt my QT? it is running with ceramic rings from top filter and 1 internal filter. How do i know it is ready ? Should i add fish food to keep the bacteria alive? QT is 1 month old. i can see some brown stains in my QT.
Plz help in my QT


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## zaitmi

Nobody is replying on QT. Why ? I think nobody knows how to keep a QT 

Anyways. 

Phophate Remover(Paste) installed via top filter and filter floss. Filter floss will be washed everyday as per Pasfur. Last night i read the instruction of Phosphate Remover. It said it works for brown algae, red algae and slime algae as well as Phosphates. Though when i washed the granules they became like a paste so as per instruction i put it inside a cloth bag and inserted in the top filter. The pack says replacement required after 30days.

Well after installing Phosphate Remover the Protein Skimmer is making lots of foam, though still white but a lot. The cup is getting filled every 4 hours. Why ?


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## zaitmi

I will be adding some more 5kg live rocks tmrw as per prescribed earlier by you guys. Thanks. 5kg = 11.2 lbs 

Earlier Total Rocks = 35.6 Now added 11.2 lbs that makes it 47 lbs. (approx) in a 29 gallon tank. 

They say 1.5 live rocks per gallon that makes it 45lbs. Mine is 47lbs.

Is this okay or i need to add more & how do i seed it with live rocks.


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## Pasfur

After several days of consideration, I believe it is in the best interest of everyone if we lock this thread. The conversation has remained polite, but constructive discussion ended a long time ago and the risk of escalation is high. For this reason, I am locking this thread.

Zaitmi - you are welcome to continuing posting questions. Please start a new thread in the proper section of the forum for any further questions concerning specific issues. If you would like a continuous thread showing pictures and the progress of your tank, you can do that with a Build Thread in the "Saltwater Pictures and Videos" area.


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