# Possible revamp of my 120g, brainstorming stocking options



## VirgoWolf (May 18, 2012)

Hi, I'm new here! :-D

I have a 120gal that I am thinking about revamping for Christmas this year (so I have time to brainstorm! LOL)... I MIGHT downgrade a bit, but I'm not sure yet, so far we're leaning towards keeping the 120 for now. Main goal is making the tank into something more active and colorful that the kids can enjoy more.

I've thought about it for a little bit, and talking it over with a friend, but for now it's all kinda up in the air... Here is my basic idea for now...

I want to go low light planted.

4-6 Angels (not my first choice, but only decent sized, mid-level, least aggressive showpiece fish)
4-6 GBRs (Hoping for 2 pairs... although I wouldn't be opposed to an extra female or two)
6 Kuhli loaches
8ish Platties
20ish tetras (glowlites and black neons likely)
3 BN plecos (1M 2F)
Misc... shrimp and snails

I'm also considering setting up 2 smaller tanks. My ideas for those are as follows:

20g long, also low light planted.

3-5 ADFs
6-8 Celestial Pearl Danios
6 Otos
6ish guppies
Misc... shrimp and snails


And last but not least...

4-5gal, also low light planted.

Male betta
Misc... shrimp and a snail or two

So what do you all think?


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## TheFuzz16 (May 18, 2012)

Id worry about angels getting at the black neons. Rummynose is another option! Glowlites would be like target practice for the angels with the bright colors I think 


What kind of plants are you thinking? You would need something pretty thick or the angels will kill all the shrimp. You should look into crypt tanks, I have seen some really good ones in the past and theres various plants that will fit into each area in the tank (fore, mid, back)

And welcome to the forum


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

Welcome to TFK!

The site here has profiles for a lot of the fish you mention, you can get all kinds of information on them from care, to behavior, to water parameters. The link is on the top blue bar, second from the left. There are even plants in there so you can get information on them too.

Do you know your tap water pH, GH, and KH?

I ask because you have some mixed parameter fish. The majority of what you list are soft, acidic water fish but the platties (like all live bearers) need medium-hard to hard, and alkaline (basic) water.

Angelfish will eat any small torpedo like fish, so they should be avoided if keeping Angels. You can get these in a yellow color, a hint of blue color (these are kind of new to the hobby I think so hard to find), and some have a splash of orange like koi fish. You can also get black, white, marbled, and silver with horizontal black bars (zebra). The 'zebra' ones are more like what you would find in the wild.

The Bristlenose Plecos will need driftwood, so be sure you have some, along with some cave like areas to set up territories.

You mentioned wanting colorful tanks, but I thought I would mention that it's best to have a dark substrate, either black or a natural stone color. It brings out the fishes color best, and also is natural for the fish. With loaches sand is ideal because they like to dig and burrow. Avoid while sand, it will be very bright to the fish and create stress.


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## VirgoWolf (May 18, 2012)

Thanks for the imput... I am new to the forum, but not at all new to the hobby... I've kept all the fish on this list in the past, besides Kuhlis, and bred a few of them as well. At one point we had 17 tanks up and running LOL... I think that's when I got the 'crazy fish lady' title LOL. Although when I got the 220gal, people really thought I was crazy! LOL I miss that tank!  It was seriously maybe 10" from being on the stand when it got dropped... I still get sick thinking about it... especially since I was hugely pregnant and saw it slowly falling and had to stand back and do nothing but scream... ugh...

I do admit I'm not that informed on the angels, I've never liked them much, I've only had them twice. I had a couple dyed (ugh!) angels when I was a kid and they killed EVERYTHING and then turned on eachother... and I had a nice pair of jet black vieltails I got with a planted 150gal I 'adopted', they did well and I liked them, but then they just up and died on me... although this guy had them forever, so I guess they could have just been old... I don't know, but that's all my experience with angels...

Would the angels really be that hard on black neons and glowlights? The veiltails I had were fine with neons and cardinals that they came with. Ugh, I really don't like angels much... I wish I could find something better... Any ideas? LOL I only picked angels because everything else I like is more aggressive or bigger, etc... but I really want a mid-level fish that draws the eye in... It's a big tank for the biggest fish to be 3-4", I was hoping to find something a little bigger... Maybe even one big guy? That's something I hadn't thought about before... a single big fish instead of a few... now I have to go look at ideas with that in mind and see if there is anything... I'd be half tempted to keep my favorite Oscar... he's a WIMP anyway... I honestly don't think he'd even bother glowlights LOL... Although hubby might get mad if I keep my oscar and not his LOL. But they're paired, so keeping them both would mean once in a while they would get mean... when they spawn, his big girl gets kinda nasty all around and my boy guards the eggs like a hawk...

My water sucks right now, but we're going to have it professionally tested and we're looking into different options to fix it. We have issues with bathing and laundry and appliances and such as well from it, so it's a big issue... We're on a well and our water is SUPER HARD, we have a softener, but it's not working correctly, so maybe getting that fixed or replaced is all we need, but we're also looking into whole house filtration or we might spring and connect to city water... so it's all up in the air right now. One of the reasons we're waiting until Christmas.

I do go for natural tanks, when I said colorful, I meant the fish. I do not support the use of clown puke gravel! LOL I have never done sand, but I do love the look and was thinking about trying it this time... maybe a mix of sand and natural gravel... I'm still working on the idea of the setup. More driftwood and rocks for sure... I don't have much now because I have large fish, so everything is big and roomy... I might go with eco complete in the smaller tanks, but I can't afford to use it in a 5' x 18" tank! LOL...


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## VirgoWolf (May 18, 2012)

Ooo.. ok, since I still can't think of anything to replace the angels, what if I replaced the little tetras with Columbian tetras?


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

I guess I'm opposite 

Angelfish are one of my favorite.

They are somewhat picky though in that they do not handle stress well at all. They should live at least 10 years, so they are a somewhat longer living fish. Most tetras and such are half that.

You can read up about them by clicking on the shaded name for Scalare Angelfish, that's the most common ones you'll see in fish stores. They have to be kept in a group, unless you buy a mated pair (can't just buy a male and female and expect them to pair). Keeping one, or two that are not a pair, ends like you described. When stressed, fish can either turn aggressive, or get depressed and just give up on life and keel over (angels are somewhat famous for going on a hunger strike).

Columbian Tetras are not a good choice for Angelfish, they nip fins. Angelfish are very slow and sedate fish, and need to be kept with similar slow peaceful fish.

Honestly, if you want colorful fish I would really recommend African Lake Cichlids or go with livebearers (molly, platty, guppies, endlers, etc), they do very well in hard water. Some Rainbow Fish are also good in hard water (for example Boeseman Rainbowfish). To keep soft water fish, if you have really hard water, will require you to mix tap with RO/DI (or rainwater) to decrease that. You can not use water from a household water softener as it will contain salts that are very harmful to the fish.


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## VirgoWolf (May 18, 2012)

LOL Opposite we are! LOL Angels are definitely wayyyy down the list for me...

Like I said, I'm definitely not new to fishkeping, but I'm not big on angels. I did check out the profile, didn't really tell me anything I don't already know, but it does suggest congo tetras as tankmates? Are they less nippy than columbians? I looked at them first, but the columbians are SA, so I thought they would be a better option...

I've BTDT with Africans, I love the color and activity level, but I'm not looking to start an African setup right now, I want plants and relatively peaceful fish and I want a variety of types, not just rocks and bright colors. I don't want a tank full of livebarers either... I think that would be insane...

My water's current condition isn't really what I'm looking to match since it will be changing... if we go with a whole house filter, our water would be basically RO water, if we go city water, well I don't know what the water is like here since we have a well, but I'm sure it's not nearly this hard LOL. I can help decide what changes to make to our water based on what I need for the tank.

I'm a SA girl to the core, so I'm always going to favor the SA fish and I'll try to make my water favor that biotope. I don't know what all my options are though.

I did talk over the water softener issue when we moved here in 2010, with some very knowledgeable people in the hobby and I was told that it shouldn't be an issue for most fish, but could be an issue for some, like knifefish, etc... that are more sensitive to that kind of thing... my oscars and pleco don't seem to mind our water... I have also heard that there are saltless water softeners out now... I'll have to look into that option as well... I've never heard of them, so that's got me curious too...

I'm half tempted to just give up on having a big fish (or a few big fish) and just deal with the little guys... I'm trying to figure out why I'm trying so hard to fit a fish in the tank that I don't even like...


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

Congo Tetra can work with Angelfish, but only in 5+ foot tanks. They are an active swimmer and need the room. Without the Angel's, a 4 foot tank works.

Your city will have a water quality report, most have it online somewhere, otherwise you could call them. Ask/look for pH, General Hardness (GH), and Carbonate Hardness (KH).

Without knowing those three numbers it is kind of pointless in selecting fish. Putting software fish into hard water won't instantly kill them. It won't even kill them over a couple months. But it does greatly reduce their lifespan, there is no avoiding that. Salts from a softener add to the TDS (total dissolved solids) which is best if kept minimal. GH is only a measure of Calcium Carbonate, and not a measure of the total dissolved solids.

I'm not sure how a 'filter' could reduce the hardness of water without being an actual reverse osmosis system? If you have something like that, you'll be fine. You'll actually have to add in minerals to keep plants, getting your GH up to ~4-5 dGH as a minimum.

Most fish are carnivores, or omnivores, so you will not see big/larger fish listed as a 'community' fish because, by nature, they will eat fish who will fit in their mouths (Angelfish are no different).

Some Gourami get largish and some can be peaceful if kept as an individual or in a harem. Snakeskin Gourami, Pearl Gourami, etc. They come with the same restrictions as Angels though, no fin nippers.

There are also Bichir which get long (12"+) and can be peaceful ... to fish who won't fit in their mouth.


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## VirgoWolf (May 18, 2012)

My tank is 5' long.

I know I can get the city water report, I just haven't looked into it too much because that's kind of a last resort as it would cost thousands of dollars and we'd still need to invest in filters, although probably on a smaller scale... I will have to figure out the best options for us, but I will always keep fish, so I will be making the decision with that in mind... Either way, I'm going to do what makes the water suitable for the fish and us. The whole house filter we were looking at is basically a big RO system...

I thought about Gourami, but hubby doesn't want to try that again! LOL We had a big beautiful opaline that was MEEEEAAAANNNNN!!!! LOL I tried moving him to a more aggressive tank, but when he almost killed my green terror... we gave him away!! LOL Hubby hated him... LOL

I'm really thinking I might just opt out of the larger fish all together and get some of the larger small fish (if that makes sense? LOL) I'm still looking and I'll have to talk it over with hubby too... hummm...


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I concur with what's been said already. I find "large" fish in tanks with small fish are difficult to get right so my larger tanks are all full of small fish. The male Bolivian Ram is the largest fish in my 5-foot tank, and he is not really "large." If you click "Aquariums" below my name on the left you will see my tanks with fish listed and photos, they may give you some ideas.

Water parameters is crucial, not all fish can adapt much when it comes down to it. And I agree with your caution on water softeners, they can do more harm than good depending how they operate.

Last, welcome to Tropical Fish Keeping forum. Glad to have you with us.:wave:

Byron.


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## VirgoWolf (May 18, 2012)

Yeah, I think I've given up on the big fish at this point... I'm just used to big fish now I think! LOL It's been a couple years since I had anything under 8", so the idea of having a big tank and no big fish seems so weird! LOL But I just checked out your tanks and :yourock: I think I'm good with just smaller fish now! ;-) LOL 

Tell me more about your plants? I think I read no enriched substrates or Co2 and I don't see ANY algae... I'm intrigued! LOL


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

VirgoWolf said:


> Yeah, I think I've given up on the big fish at this point... I'm just used to big fish now I think! LOL It's been a couple years since I had anything under 8", so the idea of having a big tank and no big fish seems so weird! LOL But I just checked out your tanks and :yourock: I think I'm good with just smaller fish now! ;-) LOL
> 
> Tell me more about your plants? I think I read no enriched substrates or Co2 and I don't see ANY algae... I'm intrigued! LOL


The key is balance, at whatever level. I prefer natural with nature doing most of the work. Minimum light, for the fish, and then select plants that will work with that. I've never used CO2, probably never will. You might get a bit of a background to this method in the 4-part series "A Basic Approach to the Natural Planted Aquairum" stickied at the head of the Aquarium Plant section. And don't hesitate to ask questions.

Byron.


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## VirgoWolf (May 18, 2012)

OK, that approach to planted tanks makes me really happy! I've done plants before, but always med-high light and high maintenance. I'm LOVING the low tech natural approach! 

I checked the lights that came with my tank though and I'm seriously dissapointed! LOL I need new fixtures I think LOL... I have 0.3WPG LOL

I do think this project just turned into more than a Christmas project... We're working on a limited budget, so things will move slowly...

Here's my to do list so far:

1) Fix the water
2) Move the big fish
3) strip the tank of decor and gravel, strip down the filters.
4) add new substrate and decor and filter media
5) get new lights
6) add plants
7) gradually add fish and inverts

Do you think adding various particle sizes (sand, fine gravel, and some average size gravel) would help with not being too compacting, but not letting too much water flow through? Would it be worth it to get an enhanced substrate to just put under the more needy plants?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

> I checked the lights that came with my tank though and I'm seriously dissapointed! LOL I need new fixtures I think LOL... I have 0.3WPG LOL


What exactly do you have? Fluorescent tube, or incandescent (screw-in bulb) fixture? How many tubes/bulbs? If tubes, how long are the tubes themselves? And is it T8 (regular fluorescent) or T5?



> Do you think adding various particle sizes (sand, fine gravel, and some average size gravel) would help with not being too compacting, but not letting too much water flow through? Would it be worth it to get an enhanced substrate to just put under the more needy plants?


This is not so good. First, mixing different sized substrates will result in the smallest (sand) ending up on the bottom, with the largest on top. This is opposite to what one might want, but benefits of even that are null. I would go either with fine gravel (1-2 mm grain size) or coarse sand (playsand is cheap and works very well). If substrate fish like corys, loaches, etc, do sand.

Enriched substrates I would forget and save your money. I tried this in m y 70g a year ago and have been very disappointed. I honestly will not waste my money on this again. I'm seriously considering pulling it out and using playsand.

A sand substrate than is no more than 2 or 2.5 inches deep overall [= throughout the tank when level] with a good planting of substrate-rooted plants (swords, crypts, Vallisneria, etc) will not have issues. I now have this in 5 of my 7 tanks.

Byron.


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## VirgoWolf (May 18, 2012)

Cool! I like simpler/easier/cheaper!  Thanks! 

The lights are standard fluorescent tubes that came with the tank. They're are two 22" Marineland 18W T8 daylight tubes.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

VirgoWolf said:


> Cool! I like simpler/easier/cheaper!  Thanks!
> 
> The lights are standard fluorescent tubes that came with the tank. They're are two 22" Marineland 18W T8 daylight tubes.


As this is a 120g tank, I assume it is either 5 or 6 feet in length. I would definitely upgrade the light; low light plants will manage, but others will almost certainly not. A T8 fixture with two 48-inch tubes is best. I have this over my 5-foot 115g and it is perfect. Make sure it is T8, the dual T5 (which I tried for a week) will be too much light.

Byron.


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## VirgoWolf (May 18, 2012)

Yep, 5' long. Definitely need to upgrade the lighting LOL. Never even thought to look until now since I have oscars, so that means I rarely bother to turn their lights on since they prefer it dark anyway, and plants would be pointless! LOL

I have the center tank brace to work around, which is why I have the 2 x 22" bulbs rather than a longer one... I had a long light on my 75gal for a while and it warped the center support... that was a powerful light though, maybe that's not an issue with the simple T8s? Or could I do 2 separate smaller fixtures?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

VirgoWolf said:


> Yep, 5' long. Definitely need to upgrade the lighting LOL. Never even thought to look until now since I have oscars, so that means I rarely bother to turn their lights on since they prefer it dark anyway, and plants would be pointless! LOL
> 
> I have the center tank brace to work around, which is why I have the 2 x 22" bulbs rather than a longer one... I had a long light on my 75gal for a while and it warped the center support... that was a powerful light though, maybe that's not an issue with the simple T8s? Or could I do 2 separate smaller fixtures?


I'm not sure if 5-foot fixtures in T8 are available. I have one, it takes two 4-foot tubes as I mentioned, but I bought this in 1996. I've not seen them, not sure what I'll do when this one gives out. The T5 like the Hagen Glo series have extendible arms at the ends so a 4-foot fixture will fit across up to a 6 foot tank, but that is only T5 which is too bright.

Two smaller fixtures would work, but likely cost considerably more. Each would have to take two tubes in parallel.

A single T5 would work, but I believe they are no longer making these, no one bought them. T5 was initially developed for marine tanks to provide more intense light with fewer tubes than T8 could.


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## TheFuzz16 (May 18, 2012)

Could always do a canopy for aestetics and do some diy lights. Affordable and you can make it with perferted wattage and light type.

Sell your current light gathering dust and use that $ for setup


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## VirgoWolf (May 18, 2012)

I was thinking about a hood too. I have no issues with DIY and my father is electricity obsessed, so it would be a fun project for him to help us put together. That's a really good idea...

I looked through some lights online and it looks like 48" T8s are 32watts.... That still only puts me at 0.53wpg with 2 of them... Is that really enough? It's a fairly deep tank as well, so I assume I'd need something more powerful?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

VirgoWolf said:


> I was thinking about a hood too. I have no issues with DIY and my father is electricity obsessed, so it would be a fun project for him to help us put together. That's a really good idea...
> 
> I looked through some lights online and it looks like 48" T8s are 32watts.... That still only puts me at 0.53wpg with 2 of them... Is that really enough? It's a fairly deep tank as well, so I assume I'd need something more powerful?


No, those are fine. My two 48-inch tubes are 32w or 40w, depending. To explain: originally all 4-foot tubes were 40w, and T12 (T being the diameter in eighths of an inch, so 12/8 inch diameter). Then along came T8 (narrower obviously) and these are now being made more energy-efficient so they use less energy to produce the same basic light intensity, and you will see T8's in 40w, 34w and 32w. Watts makes no difference to the intensity here, but the lower watts will mean less cost in electricity to run them.

My Life-Glo tubes happen to still be 40w, but my GE and Phillips daylight tubes are both 32w. The light is basically identical. And two of these over my 5-foot 115g which is 2 feet deep is more than enough for a natural method tank.


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## VirgoWolf (May 18, 2012)

You may just be my new best friend! :-D LOL

If this all works out for me, I'm gonna owe you huge! LOL I won't hesitate to sell of my SUPER high end light (that's too big for this tank anyway) and my Co2 setup and everything that I've been hanging onto for too long! LOL


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## TheFuzz16 (May 18, 2012)

The leaves will be broader to get more light and ones below may not get a much. Having this issue with my crypts that dont get as much

Wish i had a nonbf tank so i could have a canopy. Help hide wires and lights!!


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

Those lights work wonderfully, and also proves that the watts per gallon rule is completely bogus 

I have a 6 foot 125 gallon, and for full coverage I use one dual 48" T8 fixture and one dual 24" T8 fixture. I also use the 32W 6500K GE Daylight bulbs in the 48" fixture, you can buy them at home depot/lowes for less than $10 for a two pack. The 17W 24" tubes I ended up buying online as that's not something hardware stores stock (they only had T12, I needed T8), and the ones at pet stores are far more expensive. For fixtures, I used shop lights. The 48" fixture was $17. The only 48" dual T8 fixture sold by pet stores that I could find were $110 I think which is madness.

Anyways, this is what it looks like. I have a thick cover of floating plants, so everything underneath are low light plants.


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## VirgoWolf (May 18, 2012)

Awesome!  I wonder if my dad has any extra shop lights... I know he had a few, but put some up in the garage and his workshop... hummm... LOL

I'm excited for this project now!  I wish we could get the water issue sorted out faster so I could get started on this! LOL


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## VirgoWolf (May 18, 2012)

So what should I be looking for with lighting on a 20L or a small (4g or so) betta tank?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

VirgoWolf said:


> So what should I be looking for with lighting on a 20L or a small (4g or so) betta tank?


Do you have a fixture, and if yes, what type--incandescant (screw-in sockets) or fluotresent tube, or something else?

Or do you want suggestions for a fixture? If yes, do you have a hood/cover now?


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## VirgoWolf (May 18, 2012)

As of right now, I don't have anything, just potential tanks I'd like to set up... I was looking at this for a betta tank though...

Marineland Classic 4 Gallon Hidden LED Desktop Kit at PETCO

but I have NO CLUE about LED and plants... and they don't mention wattage or anything from what I can tell.

So I'm pretty open to anything.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

VirgoWolf said:


> As of right now, I don't have anything, just potential tanks I'd like to set up... I was looking at this for a betta tank though...
> 
> Marineland Classic 4 Gallon Hidden LED Desktop Kit at PETCO
> 
> ...


First, I would avoid the linked setup. That blue light would not be good for plants, but even more it will distort the colours of the Betta (and everything else).

LED light can work, but it must be daylight only. I have seen small tanks (under 20g) with LED in a local store, and the plants are doing fine. And this after several months. On a really small tank such as a 5g or so for a Betta, LED is likely the best. Just make sure it is daylight with around 6500K.

On the 20g, I use an incandescent fixture (these are less expensive than fluorescent) with two sockets. For bulbs I use two 10w Daylight CFL (compact fluorescent) bulbs, GE brand in my case. Plants do very well. A single fluorescent T8 tube would also work, and use a bit less energy, though initially a bit more cost. Either will be fine.

Byron.


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## VirgoWolf (May 18, 2012)

Cool, sounds good! 

The tank I linked doesn't mention too much detail about the lighting (I'll have to check it out in the store and see if I can get more info off of the box) but from what I can tell, the blue lighting is just the moon lights, which I probably would never even use other than to flip on for a minute if the kids want to see the tank at night. I don't use tanks as night lights or anything, so I'd never leave the moon lights on.

I actually might have a light that would work for the 20L somewhere... I need to clean out my garage and sell some things... I have no idea what all I still have in there! LOL


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