# Minimum Hardware



## hamdogg08 (Feb 18, 2007)

I am an experienced freshwater owner and am ready to tackle a reef aquarium (eventualy). I have a 75 gallon with a bio whell filter, and a 29 gallon with a canister filter. What I am interested in is reaching the ultimate goal of a 125 gallon with corals, a sump, MH lamps... All of that stuff hits the wallet pretty dang hard, and I'd rather start making headway with some kind of fish-only setup in one of my current tanks and slowly add things as I go allong. 
I have an undergravel filter, lift tubes, air pump, and powerhead aswell but they are not in use. I also do NOT have RO water in either tank in case copper leaching is an issue with use of live rock now, and corals in the future.
I'm eventially willing to spend a bunch of money in the long run to set up a really nice reef tank, but have to chip away at pieces one at a time right now because I'm a poor college student.
The question is: With my current equipment, what is the minimum that I need to buy in order to get a saltwater tank going, and do I need to worry about the copper-laiden water wrecking anything for future reef use (the main concern would be live rock in a FOWLR-type setup)?


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## Melissa (Nov 28, 2006)

ok, well you would need some light to keep your live rocks alive, like a 50,50 bulb or if your have a double strip one of each. then maybe a skimmer, some sand and a filter for saltwater, like a canister. thats all i can think of for now, if i think of more i will add it.


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## usmc121581 (Jul 31, 2006)

hamdogg08 said:


> I am an experienced freshwater owner and am ready to tackle a reef aquarium (eventualy). I have a 75 gallon with a bio whell filter, and a 29 gallon with a canister filter. What I am interested in is reaching the ultimate goal of a 125 gallon with corals, a sump, MH lamps... All of that stuff hits the wallet pretty dang hard, and I'd rather start making headway with some kind of fish-only setup in one of my current tanks and slowly add things as I go allong.
> I have an undergravel filter, lift tubes, air pump, and powerhead aswell but they are not in use. I also do NOT have RO water in either tank in case copper leaching is an issue with use of live rock now, and corals in the future.
> I'm eventially willing to spend a bunch of money in the long run to set up a really nice reef tank, but have to chip away at pieces one at a time right now because I'm a poor college student.
> The question is: With my current equipment, what is the minimum that I need to buy in order to get a saltwater tank going, and do I need to worry about the copper-laiden water wrecking anything for future reef use (the main concern would be live rock in a FOWLR-type setup)?


Lets see what you listed as equipment that isnt being used. The only thing you can use is the powerhead, everything else forget about it. As for the canister filter which one is it. They are nitrate factors so it wouldnt be good to run one on a reef but fish only it really doesnt matter.Now if you have cooper pipes dont use that water for the saltwater tank. copper is the enemy of corals. If yoiu are going to turn one of the freshwater tanks into salty with fish only for now. Then you will need some rock (Live or base rock) sand, salt, and bulbs.


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## caferacermike (Oct 3, 2006)

Just do like I did. I bought my tank and stand, put it in the living room and let it sit for over 6 months while I bought everythign I needed. Patience will get you farther in this hobby than any piece of equipment. Set your goal, make your lists and chip away at it. One day you'll have everything. Constantly changing your route will only make it cost triple in the end.


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## hamdogg08 (Feb 18, 2007)

USMC: The filter that I have is a Fluval 205, and it's in the 29 gallon tank. My main concern with using my current equipment is getting copper stuck to the hardware, then killing my corals in the future. Is this an issue at all or am I worried about nothing?


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## Melissa (Nov 28, 2006)

im not sure it is a worry or not. but if you want to be safer than sorry, just buy new stuff.


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## hamdogg08 (Feb 18, 2007)

Has anyone here used their old freshwater tank as a reef tank without killing off a bunch of corals?


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## Sleepy (Feb 5, 2007)

hamdogg08 said:


> Has anyone here used their old freshwater tank as a reef tank without killing off a bunch of corals?


I did and it works fine. I think itÃ‚Â´s always easier to go from freshwater to saltwater with your old stuff. Especially with the tank itself. If it is cleaned there wonÃ‚Â´t be any problems. 
The other way around takes some more work.


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## hamdogg08 (Feb 18, 2007)

Awesome!! That was the testimony that I was waiting for. I was super worried about having to get a brand new tank filter, RO unit, and skimmer all before having a single fish in the tank. Knowing that my stuff's not wrecked is great news! Thank you


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## trreherd (Aug 7, 2006)

How do you know there copper in your water? But if you want to try and use your tap water, maybe you could test it out on a cheap peice of coral for a few months and see if there is any ill effects.


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## hamdogg08 (Feb 18, 2007)

The pipes in my house are copper. I'm not 100% sure, but I think that it's building code...where I live at least. That's a really good idea to test out an inexpensive coral though!


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## caferacermike (Oct 3, 2006)

Hamdogg I will attest that most freshwater bits have no purpose in a reef tank. Trust me you'll end up spending three times the amount necessary to warp a fish only into a reef. Not to mention your substrate and possibly your rock will be "spoiled" due to the excessive nutrient waste from a typical FO system. You'll end up replacing the sand as it'll be packed with algae causign nutrients left over from the fish themselves. 

It is your choice, and by swaying away from all advice given to justify the switch by the one answer that says do it, but it will be much better to pick one goal and follow it through. That being said, I don't think you like that answer.


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## hamdogg08 (Feb 18, 2007)

I have a feeling that I am coming across as less of a naive newcomer and more of an impatient college kid.

My thought process was that I could use the tank that I have right now (a 75 gallon glass tank that is currently set up for freshwater with a bio-wheel filter), and buy a protein skimmer, crushed coral, and live rock. From what I've looked up, you can run a fish only tank on that equipment. A local fish store uses the hang on back bio-wheel filters on their tanks so I thought that it would be ok.

The following purchases would go in an order like this:
-New filter (I'm still a little confused about the whole sump thing...)
-Powerheads
-Chiller (I don't have AC and it got pretty hot this summer)
-Metal Halide lamps
-Corals

I was under the impression that you'd need a certain number of pieces of equipment for a reef tank, and only a portion of that SAME equipment for a FOWLR. The reason for seeking out the minimum equipment is because I would like to at least start out with a saltwater tank of any type, and be able to slowly add equipment and the livestock each piece supports.

How does substrate get spoiled in a fish only tank but not in a reef tank? I was planning on stocking the FO tank with the same fish as the reef tank. I'm not trying to argue, I am just confused. I'm also completely open to any more explanations as to why this plan is not cost effective or smart.


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## trreherd (Aug 7, 2006)

Ok mike about the whole spoiling your substrate thing, iv heard you say it yourself that sand is sand, can be washed.


''My thought process was that I could use the tank that I have right now (a 75 gallon glass tank that is currently set up for freshwater with a bio-wheel filter), and buy a protein skimmer, crushed coral, and live rock. From what I've looked up, you can run a fish only tank on that equipment. A local fish store uses the hang on back bio-wheel filters on their tanks so I thought that it would be ok. ''

Mike is just triing to say that your gunna spend some more money if you do a fish only then transfer to a reef. But Your using most of your freshwater gear anyway..... and you can use the skimmer. You might want a sump setup if your gunna be into corals. Im not sure why you would want a sump on such a big tank thought, thats something mike will explain. But you could prolly do a reef with no sump, i see then all the time. With mh lighting and a good protein skimmer(assuming you clean all your filter media every day!!) i dont see why you couldent keep most corals you would want. By the way ditch the crushed coral, clouds water get a argonite instead.


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## musho3210 (Dec 28, 2006)

trreherd said:


> Ok mike about the whole spoiling your substrate thing, iv heard you say it yourself that sand is sand, can be washed.
> 
> 
> ''My thought process was that I could use the tank that I have right now (a 75 gallon glass tank that is currently set up for freshwater with a bio-wheel filter), and buy a protein skimmer, crushed coral, and live rock. From what I've looked up, you can run a fish only tank on that equipment. A local fish store uses the hang on back bio-wheel filters on their tanks so I thought that it would be ok. ''
> ...


a sump is not a filter, it is just a place to put a filter in and install a refugium. A reef tank does not need a sump although will benefiet from one


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## trreherd (Aug 7, 2006)

mosho i hope you were triing to explain to him what i sump is, Do you belive i dont know what a sump is?


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## musho3210 (Dec 28, 2006)

trying to explain, not dissing you or anything. I know you know what a sump is, ive seen you talking about one somewhere

Heres a thread where me, mike, mike, and ryan talk about sumps, good information.

http://www.fishforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4506


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## hamdogg08 (Feb 18, 2007)

What is the difference and similarities between the hardware of a FOWLR and reef tank?
FILTRATION-
SUBSTRATE-
LIGHTING-
WATER (RO NEEDED ON REEF, BUT NOT FOWLR, RIGHT?)-


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## musho3210 (Dec 28, 2006)

Reef filtration is to try and get rid of nitrates, berlin method most popular with NNR another alternative

Substrate is pretty much the same, aragonite sand, cc, or ls

lighting needs to be much much stronger

water, RO water needed on both to prevent unwanted algae growth


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## hamdogg08 (Feb 18, 2007)

If I were to purchase a filter for a reef tank, but had a FOWLR at the time of purchase, what would be the best choice? I was thinking canister...


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## musho3210 (Dec 28, 2006)

the best quality protien skimmer you can find

Venturi driven
Counter current


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## hamdogg08 (Feb 18, 2007)

I was talking about filters, not skimmers. Skimmers don't have any kind of bacterial filtration at all do they?


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## Melissa (Nov 28, 2006)

canisters are not really good for reef, but will be ok for fish only. the best thing to do for reef is a sump.


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## hamdogg08 (Feb 18, 2007)

OK, now I'm REALLY confused. I thought that a sump had no filtration use at all, and was only pretty much a tank to put all your ugly stuff into, and the hold a refugium in, which only really took care of removing nitrates. Not amonia or nitrites.


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## usmc121581 (Jul 31, 2006)

OK lets see If I can clear it up for you. A sump is a tank that you will either keep a refug/sump or just a sump. The difference between the two are just the refug. Yes you can keep all the ugly equipment in there. But for the filteration, the refug/sump will have an area that you grow micro algea and has live rock in it to filter out the water. The water will fall into another section that the skimmer is in and then fall into the holding area were it will wait to be be pumped back to the main tank. A sump will only have the skimmer and other equipment in it no refug.


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## musho3210 (Dec 28, 2006)

hamdogg08 said:


> I was talking about filters, not skimmers. Skimmers don't have any kind of bacterial filtration at all do they?


the skimmer, live rock, live sand, and power head is all you need, the skimmer is the mechanical form of biological filtration, it skims the tank of the dissolved fish waste before the bacteria has a chance to turn it into nitrates.


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## caferacermike (Oct 3, 2006)

You can add plenty of floss or sponges to a sump as long as you clean them regularly. In a fish only set up with out live rock you'd probably want a canister filter as you would have no other source of biological filtration.


Now TR you are taking somehting out of context that I said. Yes I said "old sand is just that, old sand and can be washed and reused". They key to what was just said was "WASHED". As in is this person goign to tear downt heir tank and completely start over when they go reef? Doubtful.

The question is how can you "spoil" the tank? Easy. Most people that run FO tend to like aggressive fish that pollute heavily. Also another observation is that by not having much rock work and zero coral the tendency is to keep more fish. A proper reef tank has very few, if any at all, fish. The fish we tend to keep are very small "light" fish that do not pollute quickly. 

The reason I'm telling you to pick one or the other is that as you "morph" over to the coral side you'll quickly understand how critical a clean and balanced sytem is necessary. 


An old Cash song is needed here. Remember the one that goes, "I got a 62, 73, 64, 66, 77, etc... Cadillac."? Who wants to drive a car made from several parts of different cars? Why build your tank like that? I'm saying start with the shell of a '55 Chevy and build it into the primer grey, tilt front, blown, quick pull trunk lid, rear gas cell Two Lane black Top racer of your dreams from the start. 

Or better yet, in English, "don't half ass it all the way through". Pick a goal, be it fish only, or a nice reef. You'll be quickly surprised by the amount of mistakes you make switching them over and realize that it would have been easier to cruise along until you have the right set up.

Of course this does not mean that you can't buy a nice tank, skimmer, substrate and rock work to get you by for a few months. On the contrary, you'll be ccling the tank and getting started. Add that one or 2 little clowns you want and begin addign your corals as you see fit. But I wouldn't hump along for a year or so with a canister and a tank full of fish only to switch gears that late in the game. At that point I'd say to tear it all down and start over.


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## hamdogg08 (Feb 18, 2007)

Well, after calling up the LFS to just get some quick general info, I came to the understanding that a plan would look like this (today at least....I learn new things faster than my plans actually unfold and keep changing them.):
P.1_______________________________________________________
The goal of phase 1 is to just have the future reef fish. Not stock it like crazy only to get rid of the fish a few months later....except the damsel. The tank will look the same as when completely finished just without corals.
-Use existing 75 Gallon tank
-Buy a RO unit and use it while the tank's a fresh until I get:
-Live rock(is there a different between "base rock" and "Live rock?")
-Venturi Protein Skimmer
-2-3 Powerheads
-1 tough little fish maybe a damsel (still learning about fish right now, and If they eat corals, then I'll give them away after the tank's cycled)
-A few weeks later 1-2 more reef safe fish (Psychodelic fish are reef safe right?)
-A few weeks after that, 2-3 more fish, then I'd be done (I heard that stocking light is important in a reef tank)
P.2_____________________________________________________
After that, I'd chip away at getting stuff to help the corals
-MH or CF Lamps
-Anything else I can think of
P.3_____________________________________________________
Many years from now after I can afford it:
125 gallon-ish reef ready tank
Sump with a refugium setup (I don't want to drill my tank or have that HOB overflow, I heard problems about them leaking and causing tons of damage
Maybe a calcium reactor and a chiller (again, still learning)
_______________________________________________________
So those are the newly proposed 3-phase purchasing plans that I have for the tank. As always, feel free to blast the ideas. That's why I posted it! :wink:


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## caferacermike (Oct 3, 2006)

"pschydelic" or better yet Mandarin Dragonettes will have no place in your tank for at least a year. The general concensus is that the minimum tank size should be no less then 75g with at least 100lbs of live rock. They tend to only eat micropods in the system. These pods must have room to regenerate fromt he constant feedings of the dragonette. In reality they should not be sold through hobby stores as their needs are very demanding. As has been said over and over again, "for the price and beauty, Mandarins are God's little joke on us reefers".


Your list looks a little better and will help keep the tank stable until you go the full blown route. What type of skimmer do you have in mind? Most are junk. Look into H&S, Deltec, Euroreef, or ASM for the most efficient and best skimmers you can buy. Alternates are forced venturi skimmers like PM (precision Marine), Trigger fish systems. Those styles are ok for large tanks but use a lot of electricty for smaller tanks. Buy a Euroreef or ASM and put your electrical savings into more wattage for your lighting. Same thing for return pumps from sumps, buy Eheim as you'll save double the amount of electricity over any other brands.

Don't waste your time with base rock. It is extremely dense and not very beneficial. In a large tank it makes a good support for your regular Fiji or Marshall islands rock. In such a small tank I'd get as much Fiji or Marshall as you can afford, you'll need the benefits from the good rock more then you'll need a support for the rockwork. 100lbs would be a great start. Look online at www.oceanhomesetc.com for a huge price break. When I bought from them I had $600 to spend and found myself buying almost double what my retailers sell for.

You are right that when you go to a 125 that buying a reef ready will make it much simpler. As far as drilling a tank or HOB overflows leaking, that's only as good as your plumbing skills. My 125 has had a dual 600gph, 1,200gph total, overflow on the back for almost 3 years without ever so much as a hiccup. It's all int he equipment you chose and how you install it.

Remember that cheap things in this hobby are only that, cheap. It might cost a bit more to buy a Euroreef skimmer or MH lights but in the end they are so superior to any other products that it does make a difference. If you are looking at a piece of recommended equipment that runs $400 and you find another "skimmer" that is only $100, then that products only design was to part you with your $100 before you go back and buy that right piece of equipment. Not to mention the possible livestock losses and economic loss from that.


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