# sand cleaning



## clint3240

my sand gets coated brown and i have to stir it up all of the time, is there a invert that will clean it? i have a bunch of snails, assorted kinds. pepermint shrimp. banded coral shrimp. brittle star.


----------



## Kellsindell

Welcome to the forum!

How deep is the sand bed and you should stop stirring it up. Also, how old is the tank, and what are the paramaters?


----------



## clint3240

the sand bed is about 1.5 inches, i plan on getting more. its live sand. im having problems with my ph not changing, its a little low at about 7.6-8...not sure if its the tester or what, iv been doing water changes and adding buffer....but no changes for a while now....also says my nitrite is .05-.1. no algae growth on anything else, nothing is dieing, i have a red sea kit where you add the chemicals and compare it to a collor chart.

why shouldnt i stir it up? the bed will almost look like some1 painted it brown, i didnt have this problem when i had crushed coral.

i tried to fix this by buying snals and such but they stick to the glass and the live rock in the tank. a lot of them do cross the bed but it does not help


----------



## onefish2fish

how long has the tank been set up? its possible to be diatoms which will come and go

1.5 is a danger when it comes to sand beds. its right around the mark were it traps nasties. your either going to want shallow sand, deep sand or no sand at all. its actually great you got rid of the crushed coral because that is worse with trapping things. 

what buffer are you using to dose? what are your ca, mag and alk levels? what kind of fish are in the tank? what color is the brittle star? what kind of protein skimmer? how big is the tank? what temp.? whats your ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, salinity? anything else you can add?

and welcome to the forum.


----------



## clint3240

its a 40 gallon, iv got a backpack skimmer, about 1000gph totall of jets, penguine bio filter, i actually have 40 more pounds of sand coming in the mail. temp is at 75, like i said above my ph wont change from 7.8 and the nitrite wont change from .05-.1, everything else is 0, i think it may be the tester its red sea marine kit...iv been doing water changes sometimes every other day and test 24 hours later and the readigns do not change, nothing i put in my tank dies except for a few snails and hermit crabs from shipping and what not. the brittle star is grey with black stripes. salinity is 1.022...i am using kent maine tech CB bottle a and b...it is a calcium and buffer controll...tank has been set up for about a year now...2 months of sand

oh yes and my fish, i have 2 clown fish and of course the snails that i got becuase i thought it would clean the sand and the shrip becuase i had a glass anemonie problem


----------



## onefish2fish

do you know your alk, mag, and ca levels? how much do you dose, how often? what time of day is your pH test performed? if you test your pH before your lights come on that will be your "lowest, low" and if you test before your lights go out, that will be your "highest, high" 
what kind of water are you using? there are no fish in the tank? corals? the reason i ask so many questions is because the more info you provide usually the more info can be provided in return.
your going to want to remove the HOB filter as they are nitrate factories and do more harm then good, this is prob. where your nitrate reading is coming from. your also going to want to slowly (over the next couple days) raise that temp to about 78-79 degrees. 

skimmer, flow, quality live rock, sand and water changes is plenty to keep your nitrates down.


----------



## clint3240

what do you recomend i get for a filter then? iv been looking at the cannister filters...i do not have a tester for mag and ca. my alka shows a normal 1.7-2.8 per the chart....i dose 1 time a week after a water change as it says to


----------



## onefish2fish

no filter. no canister either. 

average 1-2lbs quality live rock per gallon ( thats a general statement ) with good flow, a quality protein skimmer ( read reviews, some are golden and some garbage ) and even a DIY sump with cheato algae ( DIY because pre-builts are to expensive ) and even carbon/phosban reactors. really all you need is quality live rock, flow and protein skimmer with weekly water changes and a good feeding pattern and there shouldnt be an issue to have 0ppm nitrates. it is possible your test kit is bunk but i feel the nitrates are coming from the filter you have. 
alk, mag and ca all work together and effect pH. you need to *test before dosing ANYTHING*.
do you have corals? and again, what fish?


----------



## Pasfur

onefish2fish said:


> alk, mag and ca all work together and effect pH. you need to *test before dosing ANYTHING*.


100% accurate. You can't make adjustments to pH properly if you don't know what you are trying to adjust.


----------



## clint3240

so you are saying i do not need a filter in my tank? not even a sump? all i need is the water changes, skimmer, liverock and water flow?


----------



## conger

well the liverock and skimmer (and deep sand bed, if you go that route) IS the filter... good flow is important for (a) passing water around and through your liverock, which contains the various bacteria needed to convert ammonia->nitrite->nitrate->(possibly) nitrogen gas, and (b) preventing waste from settling on the bottom and keeping it in the water column to be removed by the skimmer and liverock. The skimmer of course removes dissolved organics before they completely break down into ammonia. Working together, that is the best filter a saltwater tank can have.

The canister, hang-on back, and even wet-dry sumps w/ filter pads and bioballs end up generating way too much nitrate, which is why they aren't recommended for saltwater tanks.

Sumps are nice, because they (a) provide a way to increase the overall water volume of your system, and (b) provide a convenient, out-of-sight location to house things like your skimmer, carbon/phosban reactor, refugium, UV, etc. The sump isn't NEEDED, but it's certainly nice to have. Its advisable to avoid any kind of mechanical filtration in the sump however, for the same reasons you shouldn't have canisters or hang-on-backs. By mechanical, I mean sponges and filter pads that trap particles... a skimmer is technically "mechanical" filtration too. If you DO decide to include a sponge or filter pad somewhere in your filtration, its highly recommended that you rinse it out daily, to avoid it becoming biologically active and generating nitrates. Since that can become a pain, its easier to just omit any mechanical filtration and rely on good liverock/skimmer/flow filtration + water changes.


----------



## onefish2fish

yes but a sump is very benificial as it will add more water volume. the solution to pollution is dilution. the more volume the more stable parameters are. 
its not required but def. is beneficial.

enough live rock, water flow, weekly water changes, a QUALITY protein skimmer and you shouldnt have an issue. read the reviews and feedback on skimmers as alot are not worth your time or money.


----------



## Kellsindell

clint3240 said:


> so you are saying i do not need a filter in my tank? not even a sump? all i need is the water changes, skimmer, liverock and water flow?


"The solution to pollution is dilution" That's basically what a sump is. Adding more water volume to the tank. If you have a 100g tank and have a 50g sump/refugium then it is 150g of water rather then 100g. It takes more pollution to cause any issues. This works well with small tanks and picotopes. It takes almost nothing to pollute a 2.5g, but if it has a 20g sump then it takes far more.

Hope that helps


----------



## clint3240

so is this what could be causing the top of the sand to go brown?


----------



## onefish2fish

im guessing high nitrates from the biological filter you have hanging on the back of your tank.


----------



## conger

onefish2fish asked this early on, but I don't think you ever indicated: how old is your tank?

if it's fairly new, meaning within 6 months or less, then you're just experiencing the normal diatom bloom that every new saltwater aquarium goes through. Once that finally dies away, you'll likely get an algae bloom of some kind too. The tank won't really be "mature" for several months to a year or more.

So if the answer to "how old is your tank" is that it is pretty new, then there's your answer right there for why your sand is being covered in diatoms... its supposed to (as ugly as it may be, you've just got to wait it out)! However if your tank has been around for a while, and you're getting a diatom bloom out of nowhere, then that's a little more concerning.


----------



## Tyyrlym

Kellsindell said:


> It takes almost nothing to pollute a 2.5g, but if it has a 20g sump then it takes far more.


It's also called cheating.


----------



## clint3240

my tank is about 1 and half years old, i will be removing my filter today.


----------



## onefish2fish

good move, what kind of powerheads do you have (brand/model) and how many pounds of liverock?


----------



## clint3240

i have 2 penguine 550 power heads, i will be getting another


----------



## Kellsindell

Tyyrlym said:


> It's also called cheating.


 
I was giving and example. I'm not doing that8)


----------



## clint3240

well i took out the filter and now my water is cloudy.... its been 24 hours


----------



## Pasfur

clint3240 said:


> so you are saying i do not need a filter in my tank? not even a sump? all i need is the water changes, skimmer, liverock and water flow?


This is an accurate statement.

However, there are certain benefits to a sump that make them highly desirable. The sump increases the overall water volume, helping to stabilize the system. It is an "out of eyesight" place to put your protein skimmer, dosing equipment, refugium, frags, etc. Most people prefer a sump if it is not an inconvenience.


----------



## conger

clint3240 said:


> well i took out the filter and now my water is cloudy.... its been 24 hours



I'm not sure what to tell you. Something must be wrong in the tank for the water to be cloudy without those filters, I've never run them in my tank and I've always had crystal clear water. I've never battled cloudy water in a saltwater tank, so I don't have much advice to give here. I've never heard of saltwater tanks being susceptable to algae blooms in the water like freshwater tanks, though I suppose I've never heard that they DON'T get them either. Either way, I wouldn't imagine you'd have a bloom immediately after removing a portion of your filtration, so I don't think its a bloom (just the only thing I know of that causes cloudy water).

What I do know is, in the long run not using the canister/hang-on-back sponge filter is a good thing. All of us who have posted in this thread follow our own advice, and have successful tanks.

We should try and figure out what is the cause of the cloudiness, then figure out what needs to be done to fix it. I guarantee the only solution won't be to put a canister filter back on the tank.

What are your nitrate readings?


----------



## Pasfur

Did you test ammonia and nitrite? I suspect they will be zero, proving that you did not get a bacteria bloom.

I think you simply disturbed some detritus or sand and caused temporary clouding.


----------



## Pasfur

Brainstorm...

The water is cloudy... not a result of the biological filter removal... not likely a result of particulates suspended...
cloudy water... what else causes cloudy water.... diatoms, algaes... but these don't tie into the filter removal...

what else do we know... pH is low and has stayed low.... possible alkalinity or calcium issues, which still have not been tested.... 1 year old tank starting to get brown algae growth on substrate... phosphate spike?... if phosphates are high, which is likely, a test kit could show zero if the phosphates were being quickly utilized... 

ok.... so we have assumed phosphates, low pH, hypothesis of low alkalinity and low calcium... but you are using a 2 part balanced buffer... so alkalinity and calcium should theoretically be within range... so why is the pH low?... we need to figure this out...

what else changed when the filter was removed?... water flow. We have less water flow and less surface agitation... possible increase in carbon dioxide... increase in carbonic acids... I wonder what impact the filter removal had on pH?... on alkalinity... could this be a precipitation you are seeing?

This is a brainstorm. Not a solution.

Have you tested pH again?


----------



## conger

atta way to use your noggin Pasfur! I'm really interested to follow this along and see what we figure out, this is solid gold as far as learning goes :-D


----------



## clint3240

not good, i just tested for ammonia and there is .25-1 in the tank and my snails are dropping like flys, just got an emergency at work i gota fly and ill test the rest when i get back....nitrates are 12.5 high range...nitrite is negative..


----------



## conger

good to know, it looks like your tank is going through a mini-cycle, the media in the filter that you removed must have had a lot of your bacteria population. In time the bacteria will replenish itself in your liverock, but let's figure out a short-term solution to save your livestock.

Pasfur, do you think it would be a good idea to place the sponge or whatever media was in the filter into the display somewhere (hopefully its not too late... i.e. dried out or thrown away)? That would place the bacteria back in the tank and consume the ammonia spike, while simultaneously seeding the liverock and speeding up the colonization of the liverock with bacteria (?).

I don't know yet whether or not the cloudiness is related to the mini-cycle that's happening, but either way lets get that taken care of to save your fishes and inverts!


----------



## conger

btw, IMHO I don't think the nitrate reading of 12.5 is bad, though it might explain the diatoms. My tank has nitrates that stay in the 5-10 range, and I have some diatoms that grow on the sand on each side of my tank where the flow is the lowest.

Anyways, the nitrates aren't high enough to cause a serious problem in the tank, so that's good news :-D.


----------



## clint3240

well atleaste my skimmer is going to work and i have more live sand coming in the mail to bulk up the bed a bit. also i have 1200 gph total of jets coming in the mail... .i have this skimmer, seems to work good. any way i can tell if it does not? Aquarium Filtration: Bak-Pak 2R+ Reef Ready Protein Skimmer

this picture is with the filter in it....thats now gone obviously...the snails pretty much cleaned the back glass so all that coraline isnt on there anymore. to bad they are almost gonners


----------



## clint3240

i thought my penguine 550s were 550 gallons...nope only 175...whats the point in that?


----------



## Pasfur

onefish2fish said:


> good move, what kind of powerheads do you have (brand/model) and how many pounds of liverock?


I don't see an answer to this question. Looking at the picture, i think this part of the issue causing the ammonia spike. You have about 1/2 the normal amount of live rock for a typical aquarium. This is not to say that you can't be successful with less live rock, but we would have been better off to remove the filter media a bit at a time over the course of a few weeks.

I advice placing 1/2 of the media back into the skimmer. Wait until the ammonia drops, wait 1 week, then remove 1/2, wait another week and remove the remainder. 

More on this tonight.

Again, what is the pH??


----------



## clint3240

to late to put the media back in, its all gross....shouyld i do daily water changes? or should i just screw it untill my sand and pumps get here and ill go buy some more rock... my ph is 7.4 now..it droped


----------



## clint3240

ammonia - .25
nitrate - 2.5
alk - 2.5
ph - 7.4

ill do a 5 gallon water change tonight


----------



## Pasfur

Your pH of 7.4 is just not acceptable. You have to do something more significant. I'm still in disbelief of this pH. How old is your salt mix? Have you tested the salt mix prior to adding it to the aquarium? I think your salt is not buffering properly.


----------



## Pasfur

By the way clint, i'm sorry you are in this situation. You are putting a lot of faith in people you don't know. I promise this will work out best in the long run. I take this personal when something like this goes wrong. It was very unexpected.


----------



## clint3240

my salt mix is 2 weeks old and its red sea, i purposly do not buy a large bag for that reason. when i do my water change i will test the ph in it and get back. should i buy a ph buffer as its self? or should the salt do it just fine? maybe ill try just getting a ph kit incase mine is bad.


----------



## clint3240

my live sand is coming with some macroalge...my skimmer has a section made for media...should i put that in there? good constant water flow.

thanks pasfur i really appreciate it


----------



## conger

either there, or tucked in a corner of your display somewhere (another thing a sump is good for!). What kind of macroalgae is it? cheato, caulerpa, etc... I think macro is best used in an area of slow, constant flow, so there might be more flow than would be ideal in your skimmer.

Also, the macro will need light to grow (like any algae!), does a significant amount of light from the tank make it inside the skimmer where the media chamber is? If not, I wouldn't suggest you put the macro in there, as it will wilt and die in the absence of light.


----------



## clint3240

i can rig something up to get light to it, the only problem is that i do not have a way to add a sump or else id have to stick it next to the tank, which i might just do in the future....

i tested the ph in the water before i added it to the tank...its about 8.4


----------



## conger

Lets see what Pasfur or onefish2fish has to say before you go one way or the other with the macro... I still think putting it in the display itself is a pretty decent idea. You definitely don't _need_ a sump, it just has some nice benefits to it is all. But if you can't put it under the stand or hidden from view, then it's really a judgment call as to whether or not you'd mind having a sump with all the equipment and tubes running to/from the display in plain view.

So the salt mix definitely isn't the problem! Something about your tank isn't providing the proper buffering capability to keep the pH up. Supplementation with a pH buffer wouldn't be a bad idea, but I still wonder why the pH drops so low in the tank. You did mention that you do a two-part supplement right? That should keep the alkalinity up, and help buffer the pH, so I'm personally at a loss right now as to the pH issue.

EDIT: I just checked the previous page, and you mentioned that your alkalinity reading is 2.5... that's way low, and explains the water's inability to keep the pH up. So that begs the question (thinking out loud), why is your alkalinity so low, especially if you are using a two-part additive? Let me think on this some more


----------



## onefish2fish

using a sump with macro and having a light on reverse cycle will help pH swings. by reverse cycle i mean when the tank lights are out the lights over the sump are on, and when the tank lights are on the sump light out.


----------



## clint3240

conger said:


> EDIT: I just checked the previous page, and you mentioned that your alkalinity reading is 2.5... that's way low, and explains the water's inability to keep the pH up. So that begs the question (thinking out loud), why is your alkalinity so low, especially if you are using a two-part additive? Let me think on this some more


 
my chart says
(milli equaivalents per liter)
Low = 0 - 1.6
Normal = 1.7 - 2.8
High = 2.9 - 3.6


----------



## conger

oh ok, I am used to the units of dKH, where 8-12 is the target range for saltwater aquariums. Sorry for the confusion!

I'm out of ideas, but as Pasfur and your pH test of newly-mixed water indicated, the tank is unable to properly buffer the pH and it drops significantly. My only guess there would be that the alkalinity is low... I know that pH, alk, calcium, and magnesium are all inter-related, but I've been under the impression that alk affects pH, calcium and alkalinity are effect each other, and magnesium affects calcium. I'll hold off until Pasfur, onefish, or someone else comes along with some ideas. Sorry I couldn't be more help :-(


----------



## onefish2fish

i dont know if this was asked, but what brand test kit are you using? how old is it and are you properly using it?


----------



## conger

sorry for the multiple posts, more thinking out loud here...

so I looked up the conversion from meq/l to dKH, and it's 2.8 dKH = 1 meq/l (someone please correct me if I'm wrong!).

If you've got 2.5 meq/l, then multiplied by 2.8 you get 7 dKH. That's still a little on the low side, but (a) i don't guess that it would be so low as to cause a drastic drop in pH from 8.4 to 7.4, and (b) why does your scale show that 1.7-2.8 meq/l is "normal", when that maps to 4.76 - 7.84 dKH? I pretty much know for a fact that dKH should be 8-12 for a saltwater tank, so somethings amiss here as well.

Anyways, still thinking, but wanted to add this info to the thread


----------



## clint3240

i am using a red sea kit and its 2 weeks old..i do not have a calcium and mag kit


----------



## onefish2fish

its possible the test kit was sitting in the store for some time, they do have a shelf life. if you still have the box see if you can find an expiration date and even though your salt is 2 weeks old doesnt mean thats not a bad batch either. idk if anyone asked but have you tested pH of the water you use to mix, the salt water prior to adding it to the tank and then after its added to the tank?

your going to want to pick up a ca and mag kit at some point. i personally like salifert (IMO the best one but expensive) and API (IMO a good one and cheaper) but elos is of equal quality to salifert too.
mag, ca, alk and pH are all tied together so having stable readings is key. it will be easier to adjust 1 if 3 are at normal level. the issue is you want to slowly buffer (over days/weeks) to raise the low levels to avoid shocking anything in the tank. pH buffers IMO are garbage, they will raise your pH then drop it causiing it to be all over the place. your best bet is fixing the problem at the source of the problem.


----------



## conger

onefish2fish said:


> idk if anyone asked but have you tested pH of the water you use to mix, the salt water prior to adding it to the tank and then after its added to the tank?


yeah, he tested newly-mixed water, and it came out with a pH of 8.4. So either the water or something else in the tank is unable to buffer that pH.

As we just found out, the alk is a LITTLE low, but not completely out of control. Do you think a dKH of 7 would be low enough to let water with a pH of 8.4 drop to 7.4 (assuming he's never had a bad batch of salt mix, and it always mixes to 8.4 to start with)?


----------



## onefish2fish

a 8.4 to 7.4 is a drastic drop. i feel alk at 7 isnt low enough to do this. in all honesty, im at a loss myself. if nothing mentioned already is going on, atleast at the moment i cant think of what else could possibly be the issue.


----------



## clint3240

after my water change tonight my water clearity has made a huge improvment...this is just looking at it with the room lights on...ill wait till the am when the tank lights are supposed to turn on, but i can definatly see a big difference

experation date is 11/09 on the kit


----------



## Pasfur

I agree with everything you guys have said in the thread over the last 12 hours. I am also very confused about this pH. I kid you not, i woke up in the middle of the night thinking about calcium. LOL

We need a calcium test result. It has become painfully obvious that we can't figure this out with only having partial information. If we can't get the pH up soon, I am going to reach out to others for additional help. I know if Austin was on this thread, he would be about to go crazy wanting a magnesium reading as well. At this point, i'm really wanting to know ph, alkalinity, calcium, magnesium, and phosphate. 

For now, i would continue to do 5 gallon water changes daily until these readings get within the normal zone. In this hobby, when all else fails do water changes.


----------



## clint3240

ok, i will go to my fish store and get a kit, its a hike but o well


----------



## onefish2fish

for a heads up, in this case your going to want Ca and Mag test kits as you've found they work together with alk and pH. in other cases i would double check information given, esp. from a fish store (as they usually tend to just look for a sale)

i must say, i applaud your will to take others advice for the benefit of your tank.


----------



## clint3240

i got the live sand and the pumps, now 1200 gph in tank and almost 4 inches of sand...it came with a bag of lava rocks and a small bottle of water... i thought it was going to come with macroalgae and i would have added it to my skimmer becuase it has a place for media.....should i put the lava rocks in there? and whats the water for?


----------



## clint3240

ph 7.8
nitrate 0
ammonia 0

water still cloudy but readings are getting better. still have not got a ca and mag kit, no time. shoulda orderd it online


----------



## Pasfur

clint3240 said:


> i got the live sand and the pumps, now 1200 gph in tank and almost 4 inches of sand...it came with a bag of lava rocks and a small bottle of water... i thought it was going to come with macroalgae and i would have added it to my skimmer becuase it has a place for media.....should i put the lava rocks in there? and whats the water for?


The water bottle is to help seed the live sand.

Glad to see the pH is at least at 7.8. Still waiting on calcium result before I am comfortable making any recommendations. I agree, you do not want to add a pH buffer. We will fix alkalinity and calcium together, which will fix pH the proper way.


----------



## clint3240

ok well i think my tank is a little to small for 800 gph jets, it mixes the sand around and clouds the tank so i put my filter on and i just use the filter cartirdge when needed...iv got a calcium kit and 400gph jets in the mail... i added 20 more pounds of live rock to the tank and now that should be plenty...i got a mag kit and some additive while i was there...place is a rip off so i got only what i needed...my ph is still 7.8...am im still getting the brown covering on my bed. diatomes? how do you stop this bloom

mag-1270
ph-7.8
nitrite-0
amon-0
nitrate-2.0


----------

