# Illness that doesn't match anything I find via research



## szurlo (Apr 11, 2008)

Hi all,

Fairly new to tropical fish, and have something going on that I can't quite figure out.
First, my setups is a 75 gallon freshwater tank, filtered with a Rena Filstar XP3 and heated to 79 F.
I have a test kit and every thing from water hardness to PH to nitrogen, etc is normal. 
The population is currently 4 Neons, 2 Black Mollys, 4 Platies, a Gourami, a pleco and 2 Mystery snails.
Plenty of elbow room for all in 75 gallons. This setup is about 2 months old and all the fish were introduced in the first 2 weeks and all came from the same source (Petsmart). I feed them TetraColor Tropical Flakes and algae wafers.
Here's what's going on. About 2 weeks ago, one of the Neons began just hanging out at the bottom of the tank and eating very little. In a couple of days he actually appeared to get smaller, and a couple of days after that he was dead. There was never any visable sign of illness, not spots, mucous, parasites, etc. Nothing. Just stopped swimming around, stopped eating, and died.
Now I have a female Black Molly that is doing pretty much the same thing. She almost always stays at the bottom of the tank, has reduced her food intake and appears to be losing weight. Additionally, she is doing what I could only describe as hyperventilating. It's almost like she has swim bladder disease AND gill flukes AND some kind of internal bacterial infection or something. But again, the ONLY indicator of illness is behavior. (and lose of weight).
I currently have her in a 10 gallon hospital tank with heat at 81. I am treating this as a parasite issue since I had to start somewhere. I am using some tablets I got from petsmart that contain praziquantel, diflubenzuron, metronidazole and acriflave. I guess if she doesn't respond to this, I'll try antiobotics next. Anyone out there that can take a guess at what might be afflicting my fish?

Thanks much in advance,
Steve


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## Amphitrite (Sep 8, 2006)

Could you post exact readings for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate please? And what sort of test kit are you using?


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## szurlo (Apr 11, 2008)

Amphitrite said:


> Could you post exact readings for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate please? And what sort of test kit are you using?


It's a "TetraTest Laborette" kit that uses liquid regents. It has no nitrate test, but ammonia is currently 0 mg/l and nitrites are <.3 mg/l.


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## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

Well, that's part of your problem, there should be absolutely 0 nitrites in your tank- do a 20-25% water change and keep monitoring. It's odd that you've had that many fish in your tank for 2 months and the tank isn't cycled though. Did you change out all the filter media or something? Add water without treating it first? Also, it would be very helpful to know your nitrates, as that is important in understanding where your tank is in the nitrogen cycle.


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## szurlo (Apr 11, 2008)

okiemavis said:


> Well, that's part of your problem, there should be absolutely 0 nitrites in your tank


The test kit I have has a color chart that you match to the vial. The lowest possible value is "<.3 mg/l" which means "less than .3 mg/l". There is no "0" value on the chart. My test sample looks to me to be about the same color as the "<.3 mg/l" scale. See below. The instructions that came with the kit said that nitrites just needed to be kept below .8. Since mine appear to be no greater than .3, if even that, I figured I was OK.
I always treat new water with a chlorine remover before I add it. I remove and set aside the bio-media basket from the filter when I clean it, so in theory, I should not be doing anything that would kill off the bacteria colonies. I vacuum the gravel once a week, but I adjust the suction so that it just lifts the debris off the surface without overturning too much of the gravel.
Also, can you recommend source for a kit that tests nitrates? I looked at all the ones on the Petsmart website and none of them appear to test for nitrates. Obviously time is of the essence, so I really was hoping for a brick and mortar that sells one. Don't want to have to mail order.
Thanks,
Steve


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## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

Ah, I see now. That looks to actually be zero, so all good there. API is the gold standard here for tests, I'm pretty sure API brand is sold at most PETCOs. While it is very good to know, I think you can pretty safely assume some, as your tank appears to be cycled (nitrates are the good ones, except in very high concentrations).

It is almost unfortunate that you have ruled out water quality issues, as this is the most easily improved and it accounts for ALL the symptoms. There are two diseases I can think of that most fit your symptoms. 

One is Neon Tetra Disease (I do hope I am wrong). Loss of color & appetite, emaciation unusual swimming behavior are all symptoms. There are some other symptoms like spinal curvature and finrot, which your fish may or may not be displaying.

The other is fish TB/wasting disease; the top symptoms include emaciation, listless behavior and possibly bulging eyes. Also, Mycobacterium will cause rashes if it comes in contact with your skin, so avoid handling any dead fish or anything.

Neither of these diseases have any proven treatments that I know of, although I'm sure if you look online you'll find many different theories. Definitely QT any of the fish exhibiting any syptoms.


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## szurlo (Apr 11, 2008)

Well, rats. None of what you describe really fits the symptoms exactly. The Molly has now been in the hospital tank for about 12 hours and I cant' honestly say that I see any improvement. I have noticed that she is pooping almost continuously since I put her in there. Maybe constipation? I hear that can stop the swim bladder from inflating and might explain the bottom dwelling. I just don't know. One other thing I forgot to mention that might be a clue... She spits back out 90% of what I see her eat. Every time I put food in the tank she comes to feed, but spits the vast majority of it back out. That sound like anything? None of the other fish are doing that.


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## herefishy (Dec 14, 2006)

TetraColor Tropical Flakes is not meant to be a staple food. but that hasn't anything to do with your problem. If the problem is constipation, feed spirulina flakes or fresh veggies like zucchini. You can get a leaf clip at your lfs. It is used mainly by SW keepers to feed sheet algae. They usually run $2-$3. They have a suction cup that attaches to the side of the tank.

Mollies and platys do like a little aquarium salt in their tank. You may want to add a tablespoon per 5g to your hospital tank. Do not use sea salt, different stuff all together.


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## szurlo (Apr 11, 2008)

Thanks for the advice on the flakes. After reading your post I read the can, and sure enough it says "for best results use in conjunction with yada, yada, yada". And of course the clerk at the Petsmart said "yeah, that's fine" when I asked her if this was what I should be feeding my fish. Lots of bad advice out there for us newbies. 
Also, I had been reading that plecos like zucchini, so I had planned to rig up some way to get veggies in the tank anyway. Now I just need to get this mystery disease under control so I can add a Clown Loach or two to get this damn nuisance snail issue in check. I can thank petsmart for that too. I'm guessing those little buggers hitched a ride on my Mystery snails.


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## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

Any loach will take care of your snail problem in no time. Clown loaches do best in groups (you'll hardly see them if you keep them alone) and easily grow over a foot in length, so I'd think twice about putting them in a 75G. And...obviously...don't add more fish until you know what's going on. But you already know that.


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## szurlo (Apr 11, 2008)

I didn't realize loaches got that big. Same thing with the pleco. Looks like I'm going to have an issue with him. He has doubled in size in the 2 months he's been in there. I guess I'll just cross that bridge when I come to it.


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## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

Yup- common plecos are problematic in the long run. They also stop munching on algae as they get older. There are some very good alternatives though. Bristle Nose Plecos are the most commonly ones used for algae prevention, as they're great cleaners. They only get to be 4 inches (give or take), which makes them perfect for all but the smallest tank! They may have a face only a mother could love, but I sure do love mine.

As for loaches, again, plenty of other kinds. A group of kuhli loaches would look great in your tank. Just make sure you do your research first on whatever kind catched your eye, as some are rather demanding and/or territorial.


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## szurlo (Apr 11, 2008)

Thanks for the advice on plecos and loaches.
I bought a nitrate test kit this AM. See image. Looks to me like about 10. That should be fine, right?
Also, no change in the Molly. No better, no worse. Just sits on the bottom of the hospital tank. Occasionally scoots around looking for food and eats a bit and then just goes back to sitting stationary. It's breathing doesn't seem to be as labored, but I might just be imagining that.


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## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

Your nitrates are perfectly in order! As for the Molly, I don't really know what to say, as we can't really come to a positive ID on the problem. Have you tried adding some salt to her water?

Also, is there a reason you don't think it is one of the diseases I suggested? I'm still leaning towards neon tetra, as it fits pretty well. Do you have a photo of the molly?


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## The-Wolf (Mar 15, 2007)

sudden weight loss and inappetence (along with the other symptoms you state) leads me to two possibilities

1) systemic bacterial infection, very serious and could lead to the entire tank being wiped out if not treated. you need a very strong broad range antibacterial medication, like pure Acriflavin.
In UK sold by NTLabs and found in the pond department of a good LFS
(dose at 1ml per foot of tank for 5 consecutive days)

2) internal parasites. again quite serious as healthy fish eating the dead fish
can then ingest the parasite. treatment for this would be with (believe it or not) pig wormer, currently under the banner of Flubenol 15.
this can be purchased in the UK from Devon Discus (check if allowed in your country if not UK).


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## szurlo (Apr 11, 2008)

okiemavis said:


> have you tried adding some salt to her water?


Yes.



okiemavis said:


> Also, is there a reason you don't think it is one of the diseases I suggested? I'm still leaning towards neon tetra, as it fits pretty well.


Well, from the reading I've done, the symptoms for Neon Tetra disease are/ can be restlessness, fish begins to lose coloration, as cysts develop body may become lumpy, has difficulty swimming, in advanced cases spine may become curved, secondary infections such as fin rot and bloating. The only symptom that really comes close to fitting is difficulty swimming, and even that is not really accurate. She swims fine when she does come off the bottom, she just doesn't do it very much. Otherwise, she is not restless, discolored, lumpy, curved or have any kind of observable fin or tail rot.

The only reference I could find for tb/wasting disease says the symptoms are/can be fin erosion, ulcers/holes, loss of appetite, reddened areas, and listlessness. She has no fin erosion, ulcers or holes. I'm really not sure she has an appetite issue at this point. She looks to me like she spits out most of what she eats, but she still poops several times a day so she must be eating. She has no reddened areas, although I'm not sure how that would actually look on a black fish. I guess listlessness fits, but that's about it.



okiemavis said:


> Do you have a photo of the molly?


I have made about a dozen attempts to take a pic, but she hangs out at the back of the tank and between that and the medication clouding the water, she winds up just looking like a black blob in the image.


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## szurlo (Apr 11, 2008)

The-Wolf said:


> sudden weight loss and inappetence (along with the other symptoms you state) leads me to two possibilities
> 
> 1) systemic bacterial infection, very serious and could lead to the entire tank being wiped out if not treated. you need a very strong broad range antibacterial medication, like pure Acriflavin.
> In UK sold by NTLabs and found in the pond department of a good LFS
> ...


Wolf,
Thanks for the input.

I am treating he tank now with an anti-parasite medication and it actually contains Acriflavin. See my first post in this thread for the other medications in it. They are tablets that dissolve in the water. The regime is every 48 hours for three doses total. So 6 days in the medication. Did the second dose this morning.


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## szurlo (Apr 11, 2008)

Well, there is now a visible issue. Her behavior is the same, but she is becoming bloated. The portion of her body immediately forward of her anal fin is almost square, and her scales are sticking out in that area. Based on my limited knowledge, my guesses would be either very pregnant or dropsy.
If she is pregnant, will it hurt her to treat the tank with something like Maracyn II on the chance that it is dropsy?


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## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

If all her scales are sticking out (not just on a lump on her body such as a tumor), then yes, this is the dead giveaway for dropsy (the scales on her tail may or may not be "pineconing". Maracyn II is a good, broad spectrum antibiotic, which is the best you can do for her at this point. I'd go ahead and use it and hopefully she'll respond!


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## The-Wolf (Mar 15, 2007)

any updates?


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## szurlo (Apr 11, 2008)

The-Wolf said:


> any updates?


Getting worse. More bloated and now she has developed a patch of what I assume is a fungal infection. White splotch with what can only be described as "fur" coming out of it. Not sure how that happened since the tank is currently being treated with Maracyn II, Maracide and salt. Just to be sure the hospital tank didn't have water quality issues I tested nitrates, nitrites and ammonia about an hour ago and all were fine. In fact, slightly better than the main tank she came out of almost a week ago. I don't know what has got a hold on this fish but I'm afraid she is not long for the world.


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## szurlo (Apr 11, 2008)

Well, she died last night.
The odd thing is that she had appeared to have made a full recovery over the past week. The white patch of fuzz was completely gone. The bloating had completely disappeared. She had stopped hanging around on the bottom and was eating like a horse. I was so confident that she was better that I actually put her back in the main tank two days ago. 
Then I get up this morning and find her dead on the bottom of the tank with absolutely nothing visibly wrong with her. 
I sure hope this is not the way it usually goes with sick fish. 
Anyway, thank you all for all your help and advice. 

Steve


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