# Ich keeps coming back



## Vpaw (Apr 21, 2013)

I brought home some cherry barbs about 2 months back, of course they had the ich. Ok I treated it, lost my beloved bs pleco to the treatment, and all that. Now, it's back! I did the treatment before, raised temp used product, removed carbon, and after I did a second round (probably nt a good idea but I thought I saw something) I thought it was gone. Got new pleco recently too. And today, one little barb is COVERED in white spots! I looked close and some other barbs have them too. Why is it back? Should I keep treating like before? How do I prevent it?

Tank:
30 gallon
4 cherry barbs
2 golden barbs
2 dwarf gourami
1 bs pleco
6 rc shrimp
I was gonna add tetras but then this happened. 

Nitrate: 40 ppm
Ph: about 7.8
Hard water
It's been running for years, maybe 4, so I'm pretty sure it's well established, got 2 filters running on it, and lights are on 10 hours a day, I think.

I also just realized that it was frogs, not pleco's that couldn't get ich.. Dang... I hope my 20 gallon isn't invested now..


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## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

What did you treat the tank with. If you used copper, you might have issues with low toxicity in hard water. In soft water copper is more toxic. Its very complicated and I am just learning about ich and how to treat/ prevent.
Seems that in hard alkaline water, you have to re- dose to keep copper level up or it can be absorbed/ locked up by hardwater minerals and organics. Your copper level may have dropped to below lethal dose before the tank was totaly cured. Just an idea.

Lots of people use heat treatment to completely cure ich in a fish tank. Raise the temp to 88°F for ten days. Supposedly 100% effective.

Good luck.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

It's effective as long as you don't reintroduce it to your tank. Just guessing the new fish wasn't quarantined.


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## Austin (Feb 1, 2010)

Do 50% water changes every day, vacuuming the gravel if possible and raise the temperature slowly to 86F. That's all the treatment you really need. You should notice the ich disappear and does not come back. Keep this temperature for a 7-10 days after the last sign of ich. Sometimes you may need a slightly higher temp. This method is 2 for 2 for me.

The treatment was effective but you brought in ich with the pleco. It didn't randomly come back. You can prevent it by setting up a quarantine tank. That's the only way, really. You can also buy from good sources and inspect all the tanks at the fish store... That will reduce your chance of getting ich. If your previous treatment was successful feel free to just repeat that treatment. I'd swear by simple heat and water changes, though.


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## Vpaw (Apr 21, 2013)

My parents are extremely against me getting anymore tanks, I have 4 currently. I wanted to get a quarantine tank but I don't like what I got. I have a 1/2 gallon with am under gravel vac. No light, but here is a lid, and no heater. I did use it, however to rid the Molly I bought of ich, I noticed it on her while floating in the bag for temp purposes. I also use it as an intro to water perimeters for new fish. I usually inspect before releasing as well. I buy from petsmart since here closer than the family owner lfs it could also go to petco, but they don't have bs pleco's. 

I also have a 5 gallon, whisper filter, sand substrate, heater, good and light. It's my ADF tank and I just recently ;0(less than a month) set that up, I was thinking I maybe could use it for isolation, since frogs don't get ich, but they could get other diseases and might not get along with some fish. Plus they're going through fungal treatment, should end today but the white spot is still on his mouth...

The first time I used rid ich+ and now and for the second treatment I used the API ich treatment. My air pump for that tank is pretty week so the oxygen level may not be great. I used half the dosage because the label recommended to do so if I have scaleless fish in there.


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## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

I used the heat treatment to great effect untill my wife bought Coppersafe and dosed the tank when I wasn't home. I swear the fish were almost healed before the medicine but she takes credit for healing the fish! If you do use chemical medicine be aware that most will kill plants and invertabrates.
I would recommend the heat treatment as I saw immediate improvment after only1-2 days and spots were vitrually gone after3-4 days.


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## Vpaw (Apr 21, 2013)

rsskylight04 said:


> I used the heat treatment to great effect untill my wife bought Coppersafe and dosed the tank when I wasn't home. I swear the fish were almost healed before the medicine. If you do use chemical medicine be aware that most will kill plants and invertabrates.
> 
> I would recommend the heat treatment as I saw immediate improvment after only1-2 days and spots were vitrually gone after3-4 days.



How high did you raise it? It's at about 83 right now and I had it up at 86 before.


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## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

Vpaw said:


> How high did you raise it? It's at about 83 right now and I had it up at 86 before.


I was at 87-89. Research says ich can't reproduce over85°F.
Hope you get clear of it soon.


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## Vpaw (Apr 21, 2013)

rsskylight04 said:


> I was at 87-89. Research says ich can't reproduce over85°F.
> 
> Hope you get clear of it soon.



Thanks, it's at 87-89 now... I don't know how well the heater controls range


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## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

Yeah my heater range was about 2.5°F. Plus my house gets a bit cold in winter. That's why I went with a slightly higher average temp. If you could maintain a precise 86° ... but iwanted to make sure I never dipped below 86 at any tmie, plus the gravel and tank bottom is not quite as warm as the water is when the house is cold. 
Good luck!


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## Vpaw (Apr 21, 2013)

Haha, living in AZ so cold isn't a problem, unless it's summer and I'm trying to cool off


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## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

Lucky you for the warmth! we were 5 below zero last week. This week 20-30. 
Did a little more research and it seems that lots of pro breeders and serious amateurs use the heat treatment as a first choice for ich. 
Best wishes for a beautiful and healthy aquarium!


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## Vpaw (Apr 21, 2013)

The heat isn't always good haha, but that's COLD!!!
Ok... Bad news... The ich is completely covering all my cherry barbs, one is dead, doesn't seem to be effecting golden barbs and gourami's or the pleco... They all probably have it though. I took 3 cherry shrimp out and dosed more than half the recommended dose, since I wasn't as worried. The heat is up, and it's just getting worst!

For the 20 planted, I still see no sign of it, and the heat is up. I hope my shrimp don't become infertile...


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## xfatdannx (Feb 11, 2013)

With the heat treatment, it gets worse before it gets better. 

The heat speeds the life cycle of the Ich so all the attached, microscopic 'cysts' (if you will) grow to a size you can see. When using the heat treatment i also dose aquarium salt. in MY experience, it has been 100% effective.

I was not aware of the heat making the Ich unable to reproduce. What I researched said the heat sped the life cycle up and the salt killed the spores looking for a new host.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

The use of salt has no impact whatsoever on the effectiveness of the heat treatment. Also, IME, water changes are not necessary during the heat treatment either. The idea behind water changes is getting the parasites out before they reinfect the fish.....but if the treatment kills off the parasites....dead parasites don't reinfect fish....


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## Vpaw (Apr 21, 2013)

That's good  I used salt and 80 degrees on a Molly once, It worked, I dosed meds too, but it was in the 1/2 gallon with that automatic 80 degree heater, so it worked but it wasn't very safe..


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## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

Did a bit more research... I am against using strong chemicals whenever possible, but....
The most effective ( and harshest, most dangerous) chemical treatment for ich is a combination of Malachite Green and Formalin. These are harsh, toxic chemicals that will stain your sealant blue and will kill plants, shrimp, snails... and maybe kill your fish too! but in severe infestations when other methods don't work, multiple sources say to use that instead of copper sulfate, methylene blue, or any of the natural remedies.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

I believe quick cure is the blue. That used to be how I treated ich, before I learned of the heat. I found it very effective, though it never killed any fish, nor did it kill my MTS, nor the bacteria colony. But it did stain everything with a blue hue.


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## Austin (Feb 1, 2010)

Yea as jaysee said you probably don't have to change the water. Maybe that's just my superstition. Though clean water is always good for the fish and can help reduce the strain on their immune system from any other nasties. I feel it should be the first line of defense.

I also didn't use salt and it worked. Somehow the heat does it on it's own.... Pretty amazing. The point of all these treatments is to do something that kills the ich but not the fish. Chemicals do that... Although they probably increase the fish's risk of cancer down the line (nobody would really notice that, but since M. Green is a carcinogen, I believe..., best not to even handle it yourself). Just because they survive doesn't mean it was a healthy thing for them. Heat seems the least damaging to the fish while killing ich. Maybe some stress to colder water tropical fish but very very minimal.


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## Vpaw (Apr 21, 2013)

Someone on another forum told me it only dies at 94 degrees, and at 85 just makes it worse.. I'm not sure weather or not to believe them.. My 2 shrimp are alive and the pleco.. But this morning all my cherry barbs were dead along with my blue dwarf gourami ;( I turned the heat up a bit too high... I guess.. (89 maybe)


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## Austin (Feb 1, 2010)

Noo! That's not good  I know nothing about barbs and little about gouramis! Mine got up to 88-89 at some points and I had guppies, neon tetras, a pleco, and blue rams/angelfish. :/ but 89 is pushing is. That person does not know what they are talking about. I'd keep it at 86 and see how it does. 89 is getting up there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Austin (Feb 1, 2010)

If 86-87 doesn't kill it we can talk about raising the temp higher at that point. That person does not know what they are talking about. 85 is supposed to kill it, but most people say 86 to be safe. 94 isn't required at all...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Vpaw (Apr 21, 2013)

Ya, I turned it back down.. The barbs seemed to be most effected as well. I don't really see it anymore, but it might still be there


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## Vpaw (Apr 21, 2013)

Well technically they said Ich won't die at all unless it's at 94 but that's too high for fish, so hear can't do it.. But idk, that's weird cause they're a pretty respected member!


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## Austin (Feb 1, 2010)

They have no clue what they are talking about, respected or not.


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## Austin (Feb 1, 2010)

If you have kept it at 86 for at least the last few days and the spots have disappeared, in my experience you may see a few new spots (from ich that has already infected the fish and is bursting out) but much much less and it should disappear and not come back.


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## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

So sorry to hear that your fish died. Mine were fine at 89°F. If anything they were more active and hungry. I guess different fish are more or less tolerant of heat, or maybe they were already to badly affected to recover. Warmer water has less oxygen and ich attacks the gills of fish.


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## Vpaw (Apr 21, 2013)

rsskylight04 said:


> So sorry to hear that your fish died. Mine were fine at 89°F. If anything they were more active and hungry. I guess different fish are more or less tolerant of heat, or maybe they were already to badly affected to recover. Warmer water has less oxygen and ich attacks the gills of fish.



I think cherry barbs in particular aren't good with heat. The golden barbs are all happy. I'm most disappointed about my blue dwarf gourami, I'm not sure what the problem there was. I had he water lower so that the two filters made a bigger slash for oxygen as well... And had an air stone, however he air pump is weak, it was letting out maybe 5 bubbles a second, but it's better now since I hooked up the strong air pump, and (I couldn't use it as it was powering my 20 gallon sponge filter and an air stone in the 5 gallon) that seemed to help the weaker one, maybe the stone was clogged. It's up to a reasonable maybe 15 bubbles a second


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

I've administered the heat treatment (88-89) to more than 50 species, cherry barbs included. Never had a problem other than a individual fish here and there that most likely had something else going on.


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## Ianwp (Jan 2, 2014)

So how long do you have to keep the heat up to get rid of Ich? I had an Ich problem recently and it has been almost a week of temps at least 85.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

2 weeks is the most common recommendation, but really the spots should be all gone by a week. The second week is just to make sure that they parasites have all died. Is it NECESSARY to wait the whole two weeks? Probably not. However, it's easy enough to do so I've never bothered to test it.

Does your fish still have spots?


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## Ianwp (Jan 2, 2014)

I didn't see any spots on him this morning but just to make sure i got out my led light, yeah he has a spot on his tail. I know the heat is working since when i first noticed it he was covered and big spots. So one more week for sure maybe 2 to be certain. I have had the temp at 88 steady. I originally wanted 86, I put in an extra heater i had so both are set to 86 but 88 is where its at and the fish seem to be fine with that. I have good aeration also.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

There ARE white spots that are not ich.... it's possible that that's what remains. Can you post a pic?


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## Ianwp (Jan 2, 2014)




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## Ianwp (Jan 2, 2014)

this one shows it better


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## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

Beautiful Rams Ian. Hope you get them healed up soon. 
Good luck!


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

I don't think that's ich. I don't expect treatments to take care of that.


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## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

What is that...velvet?
(


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

No not velvet. Quite possibly lymphocystosis - a viral infection. It doesn't usually kill, goes away on its own (in time) and is brought out with stress.

Sure is a lot of it. Usually there's only a spot or two.


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## Ianwp (Jan 2, 2014)

hmm, ok i thought it was ich. So i guess i should turn the temp down then right?


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## Ianwp (Jan 2, 2014)

I read a little bit about Lymphocystis, which it could be. I guess the fish will not die from Lymphocystis but i didn't read anything about it spreading. Does anyone know? Should i repost this in a new thread?

One thing to add, the ram did have spots on his front fins which have gone. The mild images of Lymphocystis look like Ich, but the najor ones are huge growths. Are you sure that this is not ich?


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## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

I think most if not all aquarium fish carry the virus that causes lympho. so don't worry about spreading. (Right?)


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

The virus is spread by other fishs injuries, so a fish that's been beaten up in a tank with lympho has a good chance of contracting it. I have it in a couple of my tanks. It's really not a big deal other than the aesthetics of an active infection. The only time it poses a problem is if a growth forms in a spot that inhibits the fishs normal function, like the gills or something like that.

I would lower the temp back to normal. In my experience it can take 3 months or so for the spots to go away. I'm 99% sure it's not ich - it's just too big. It's te size of table salt not kosher salt


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## Ianwp (Jan 2, 2014)

ok well I guess the silver lining is that its not Ich.


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## Vpaw (Apr 21, 2013)

That's a beautiful fish! What kind is it?

I'm seeing white spots appearing on my Cory catfish in the 20 planted... I've had the heat up but I think the heater is having problems, my electronic thermometer says it's at 80, while the heater is set at 86. I don't see any in the 29 gallon, but chemical treatment should be over tomorrow, however I had carbon in there the first two days, should I extend it?


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## Ianwp (Jan 2, 2014)

It is a German blue ram. He is usually more colorful. they are really cool fish, and he is social always comes up to me when I get near the tank.

As for the thermometer a trick someone told me is to but it near the outflow of your filter, that way the water around the heater is always moving and it will heat the tank more accurately.


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## Austin (Feb 1, 2010)

I'd maybe keep it a little warm for a bit. Blue rams like it warm and it'll improve his immune system.


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## Vpaw (Apr 21, 2013)

Austin said:


> I'd maybe keep it a little warm for a bit. Blue rams like it warm and it'll improve his immune system.



I noticed you have an angelfish, I was planning to get 2 for my 45 gallon. Did you get yours from the lfs or a breeder? What kind did you get? Any recommendations? I really like the colors of pinoy.


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## Austin (Feb 1, 2010)

I will PM you the information.


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## Vpaw (Apr 21, 2013)

Thank you. I think the ich should be out of that tank, I just don't know what to do about the 20 gallon...


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