# small breeding setup



## zof

Ever since midgem posted about his setup of a fish room, I've been thinking really heavily on setting up a small breeder setup...

Basic concept will be to use one of those heavy duty storage racks to hold most of it and plastic storage containers as the tanks, I think I almost remember someone on this forum setting up something similar for bettas but I'm too lazy to do a search. Tell me what you think of my design below, note the air pump isn't included along with the heater but these will be hooked up inside the sump.


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## zof

Just a price estimate for the heck of it;

Storage rack - $80
Containers - $75
Pump - $40 if the one I already have doesn't work 
Heater - $35 Again if the one I already have won't work
Air pump - $18 Again if the one I already have won't work
Fittings and tubing - $70
Random materials for the sump - $50
Auto Top off - $30

Total $398

But I'm hoping to keep it under $300


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## zof

Any comments, flaws, critiques anyone wants to add before I buy the stuff this week?


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## SinCrisis

Why bother with the auto top-off? Your going to end up topping off that top tank anyway, might as well skip it.

Your concept seems fine, but it would depend on what you are breeding since different fish need different environments. Your setup seems like it would work well in general (as meaning for most of the commonly traded fish) but if your were, lets say, breeding bettas, this would not work at all.

Also, have you thought of how the pump will return the water? are you going to be using 4 separate pumps? Water will go the path with least resistance so if you were thinking 1 pump, most of the water will not reach the 3rd level, running multiple pumps will cost you more.

Also running your quarantine on the same system seems counter productive since if the fish there are sick all your tanks are gonna get infected anyway since they all get mixed in the sump.


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## badxgillen

*hmm*

well i have pretty much this setup in my room next to my bed...i dont like the sump idea as mentioned before about quarintines...as well as allthe perameters would be the same for better or for worse most of the time worse on the fry..so i go with one air pump driving the 10 tanks...and dollar store tuperwares for tight squeezes of fry...as mentioned it also depends on the breeding project..it will work in theory.


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## zof

I'm actually looking to breed my Bolivian rams in this type of setup, with the auto top off I was hoping to have a constant water change going on, over the course of a week 20 gallons would come out of the slow drip and be refreshed by the 20 gallons attached to the auto top off. I also thought through the pump issue and decided the best way to use one pump over multiple levels will to bring the main line to the highest point on the system then distribute down from there. The lower tank will still receive more flow just based on gravity but should help equalize it a bit.

I didn't really specify but the quarantine tanks will be disconnected if being used as such. In fact I already have a 10 gallon tank that I will use on this rack but will not include into the sump system. I'm just trying to make this as low of maintenance setup as possible, hence the constant water change, and the fry will benefit from the extra water volume create through the sump system as long as all the tanks aren't crammed.


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## onefish2fish

to me, slow drip + pump = flood.
i suggest using gravity as your friend here. have a ball valve coming off one of the tanks. when it comes time for a water change, open the valve and have a bucket ready under, gravity will drain as much water as you let through the valve requiring you to only refill what was taken by pouring in a new bucket of water. hope that makes sense. if you are going to connect everything and have it how you do i still suggest using gravity, with one return pump to bring the water back to the top of the shelf..maybe like a mag5 pump or something?

just wondering what kind of fittings and tubing you'll be buying for $70?


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## SinCrisis

I think its just way more work than it needs to be. If your using a central sump to filter all tanks, you can just draw water out from the sump and add new water in for water changes, at least you wont be siphoning each tank separately and will be able to do all 4 at once. Plus if you free up the top rack you can add 2 more breeder tanks.


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## zof

I can kind of see what you guys are getting at with the pointlessness of the auto top off in this type of system. But a little confused on how a slow drip and pump might lead to a flood.

I like the idea of using gravity in the draining process but would be a little worried about creating too much turbulence for the fry of that tank.

I've attached my diagram with a shopping list for the hardware store, all my prices earlier were just estimates off the top of my head.


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## onefish2fish

im thinking the slow drip wont be as fast as the pump is pumping up, and when your filling more then your draining...well.. you get a flood. this may not even be noticable at first and overtime, the drain wont be able to keep up. another possible scenario would be the drain clogging/getting obstructed somehow? just trying to point out some real life situations.
if you do go this route, dont set your drain to low.. the day your out and your pump fails ( and trust me, one day it will fail ) your tank will be all over the floor. dont mean to scare you, but this could happen.
as for the ball valve drain, you wouldnt have to open the valve all the way.. but it only takes that one time to forget and flush.. there goes your livestock :shock: lol. i think your right, it may just be alittle to turbulant for fry.


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## zof

Ohh I see, no my slow drip will only be to remove water from the entire system so there is rooms for the automatic top off to fill it back up, the drains coming from the tanks will be huge 1" holes free flowing back to the sump. It will basically drain as much as is pumped in from the sump. I was also thinking about the power cutting off and some crazy chain of evens happening that causes the sump to over fill, was thinking about adding a drain hole on the sump to direct any sort of over flow of water like that.

And after thinking about it for a while I think I'm going to keep my constant water change auto top off system in the setup, in the past month or so there has been a ton of co2 in my water which has dropped my tap down to a pH of 7 from being at 8. I think the constant water change will adjust the water parameters so slowly there will be no tanager to any sensitive fry plus it will give the water a chance to let the co2 escape.

I was also thinking instead of hooking a valve up to a tank to drain you could just attach it to the pump return hose and let the pump do all the work.

I might go pick up the rack and some other stuff tomorrow, we will have to see but I already got some tools and clamps for the project today at harbor freight.

I appreciate all your guys input, its given me a lot to think about and plan, we'll see how this comes together now I just got to figure out what pump I want to buy... don't want to spend to much but I also don't want to be spending that money again a year from now to replace a bad pump.


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## onefish2fish

zof said:


> I was also thinking instead of hooking a valve up to a tank to drain you could just attach it to the pump return hose and let the pump do all the work.


glad i got you thinking. this is a great idea. please take pictures and post your progress on this build. im interested.


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## SinCrisis

just another comment, for most breeder setups i have seen, a lot of them use sponge filters in their tanks and the air comes from one powerful airpump. This should not be more expensive than a unified sump, and may actually be cheaper.

It will ensure that each tank is contained so if one crashes not all of them will crash. Additionally, the flow will be softer, which is better for most fry. The main con is that you need to top off all your tank individually and wont have an auto-drain system.


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## badxgillen

*yup*

thats what i run...a bunch of $5 dollarr spongefilters and a single air pump..you can get a larger rubermaid container for a resevoir that your pump goes into to fill the tanks ...just refill the resevoir before water changes and use a siphon tube attached to the pump to return water to the tanks you cleaned or need topoffs.


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## Christople

whats a sump


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## SinCrisis

Christople said:


> whats a sump


its the large wet/dry filters you see under larger tanks, often marine tanks use them too, kinda hard to explain, just google it.


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## onefish2fish

SinCrisis said:


> its the large wet/dry filters you see under larger tanks, often marine tanks use them too, kinda hard to explain, just google it.


not all sumps are wet/dry. this is pretty common in freshwater though, but since you mention marine, i wouldnt use a wet/dry sump. id just take a used tank and silicon my own baffles in. the pre-made ones are nice and look fancy but the bio-balls are not needed in marine, however on a freshwater tank, bioballs work well.


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## SinCrisis

well most sumps are wet/dry.. at least the ones ive seen are wet/dry. They're basically a tank that acts as a filter and allows you to put your equipment in there so minimize equipment in the tank. I see more marine tanks use it than freshwater, most freshwater tanks i see use canisters more than sumps unless its a very large setup.


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## zof

The reason I'm going after a sump is for a couple reasons, the extra water volume for tanks that might get heavily over populated (two tier, one is the extra water in the sump the second is to even out the fish load among many different tanks), easier to manage the biological filter as I don't have to move filters from empty tanks to occupied tanks to keep the bacteria alive (only helps in a multiple tank setup), and the ease of maintenance with a multiple tank setup.

Of course as others have pointed out in a multiple tank setup it has the downside of all the fish sharing the same water, but since this will be a breeder setup the risk is minimal as long as the breeding pairs are quarantined effectively.

Oh by the way I think I've decided on my shelving, going to get 48" x 24" x 72" shelving you use in the garage, now I need to decide on a pump this weekend and containers to be used as tanks, which is harder then it sounds as plastic storage containers come in weird sizes.


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## SinCrisis

How will you run 3 tanks with 1 pump? wont the higher level tank lose pressure?


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## Christople

Man I wish I could do this...


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## zof

SinCrisis said:


> How will you run 3 tanks with 1 pump? wont the higher level tank lose pressure?


It would if you directly tubed them to the pump but my main pump tube will go to the highest point on the setup before splitting off to all the tanks, which should help equalize the pressure (I hope anyways).


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## zof

Well so far spent $80 with tax on the storage rack, $40 on 6 58 quart storage containers (roughly 14.5 gallons). I still need to complete my order on fosters which is at $150 so far maybe more, find a larger storage container for the sump and buy my tubing and fittings. Looking like my new goal is under $400.... but I did decide to use 4 of these 58 quart storage containers instead of 2 bigger ones and 1 smaller one so I will get an extra tank out of it.


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## badxgillen

*wow*

how do they look on the stand...pretty legit?i am setting up another propagation/breeding stand of tanks myself and was wondering about the looks of the containers Vs ten gallon tanks as they are both pretty cheap and easy to maintain.i want mine to be cost effective and cant spend more than 200 but i want it to look decent and some of the bins dont look to hot and are a bit flimsy when you need to move em with a bit of water.did you go with rubbermaid.


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## zof

They will defiantly not be moving when water is present in them but I feel they will hold the water stationary, I was actually going to buy a 105 quart one for my sump but it felt to flimsy to support the weight of the water, so now I'm looking at a 90 quart thats out of stock. The main reason I went with 58 quarts is I could comfortably fit 2 per shelf, and I'm just buying the cheap sterilite containers as if I start spending the money on the rubbermaids I might as well just wait for the $1 per gallon tank sale at petco to come up.


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## SinCrisis

Post progress pics please! Im looking forward to seeing how you are setting this up.


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## zof

Pictures once construction starts, so far only thing assembled is the storage rack, and I even had to put it together twice due to lack of attention on my part.

Also I would like to hear some ideas of what else I should breed in this setup, I'm looking for fish that will do ok as a pair in a 15 gallon tank and will have at least a value of $4 selling to a local fish shop.


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## Christople

try the similar M. Ramzeri... I will try my hand at them and I love the way they look


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## zof

I just picked up a 50 gallon acrylic tank for $20..... thinking of how I could add this into my system.....

Oh and I would try the Blue Rams but my pH is probably too high for them, with the system I am developing I could easily change the pH but they wouldn't do well once at the LFS unless they used RO water.


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## Christople

Oh sorry... my ph is 6.0 and my lfs averages 6.8


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## SinCrisis

If you gave us your water parameters we might be able to give you better suggestions. Also, do you know your LFS's markup on fish? blue rams at my lfs sell for 6-7 dollars so they must be buying at around 2 or 3 dollars at the most.


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## zof

Tap is 7 after co2 escapes its up around 7.8 - 8, in my established fish tanks it drops back down to about 7.6, hence my want for a auto top off system, adds gradually and will give the water time to breath. I bought my Bolivian rams for $10 each so I'm hoping I can sell the matured fry for about $3-4 each. I need to run around and check the local stores and see what everyone is asking and what they are stocking.


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## SinCrisis

i bought my bolivians for 5 dollars each...


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## zof

Eh different areas, different prices I might still be able to get them for that if the supply isn't too great around here.


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## Christople

yeah it all depends on availablility for price... I am going for blue rams but I have to wait next weekend because my birf day party is today and my parents say I need some money to get them soooo


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## SinCrisis

happy birthday christople! 

Zof, you may be right, my lfs and petco and petsmart in my area all seem to use the same supplier so the supply of fish here may be cheap because of competition, but bear in mind that most fish stores buy cheap and spike their margin when supply is low. You should talk with your lfs and ask them which fish are more difficult for them to bring in, those would be the fish the lfs would be more willing to buy at higher prices. Bolivian rams, blue rams, are both already fairly common fish in the trade now. A uncle of mine lives in Australia breeding guppies for sale and they only go for around ~0.25usd per fish and the stores there sell them for around ~2.00-3.00USD. so think of the store's margin like that. the stores generally need to spike their markup because of loss, store overhead, employees, expected turnover, etc. Unless your selling a fish thats difficult for the LFS to find, its likely that a big supplier will be able to undercut you in pricing.

The advantage for you is that bigger suppliers sometimes shy away from the harder to breed fishes since they have difficulty maintaining higher quality control for those fishes when trying to breed in volume. For a setup like yours where you're personally monitoring the 4 tanks, your success will be higher and probably get more money for the fish.


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## Christople

yes and thanks... it's actually June 12 but my brothers graduation party is on th eleventh so two parties in a row would be a pain


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## badxgillen

*ahh*

happy B day as well...thanks for putting that so well sin...my friend breeds bangai cardinals wich are a salt water fish and he only gets about $4 dollars each and they dont buy as many as he would like ususaly like 6 - 10....i breed a number of fishes and i think the apistogramas and harder to find rainbows and tetras will fetch a higher price but still about a couple of bucks..if not under the dollar.do some homework on you area on whats hot and whats not.


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## zof

Ok been thinking through this and created a new image with the 50 gallon in mind, let me know what you think, on a side note I just realized a plastic container will bow to much to support baffles, so I guess I will be getting a 20 long for the sump (anyone know when petco is going to have another $1 per gallon tank sale). On the plus side most of my stuff will be here tomorrow, and I might go out and buy the rest of the pumping, also put together a basic design for a spray bar made out of pvc.


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## badxgillen

*hmmm*

now it looks like you just need to go into a good local fish store and check out there setup and tweak it to what you wanna do...its getting a little deep$$$$$


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