# Help a salt water newb?



## Carp (Nov 24, 2008)

This is a great forum glad I found it. I have been a lurker for a week and decided to get some feedback.

I bought a 36 gallon corner tank. I put in tap water, put conditioner in it. Also added 2 Aqua clear powerhead 50 and a tank heater. I added salt and let it sit for 4 days. Today I put in 41 pounds of live rock so far. I have sand being ship to me this week. I am going to buy Tunze Nano DOC Protein Skimmer 9002 since the reviews say this skinner is just as good as AquaC Remora Protein Skimmer but quieter. The quieter my tank is the better.

Here are my 1st test results:
PH 8.2
Ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 0
salinity 29.5
gravity 1.022
temp 78.5

Should I throw in a dead shrimp to help jump start my cycle? I am very new at this. All my limited knowledge on this subject has been gain by this forum.

Any suggestions of feedback would be greatly appreciated. Here is a pic of my tank.

BTW This is an expensive new hobby. I am doing a FOWLR.


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## conger (Feb 2, 2008)

welcome to the hobby! You're sure to find it is a continual learning processes 

To answer your question, I don't think you need to add any dead shrimp or anything to kick off the cycle. Your live rock will do fine to get the cycle going... even if it was fully-cured live rock, there will still be some die-off anytime it is put in a new/different tank, and that will be just fine to start and feed the cycle.

Another note, I would HIGHLY encourage you to not use tap water anymore. You shouldn't even really use it simply fill up the tank to begin with, but now that you have, try to avoid using it any more. Tap water contains all kinds of stuff that will feed really ugly algae growth in SW tanks (phosphates, silicates, etc), and conditioner for tap water doesn't remove any of that. It only neutralizes the chlorine and such to make it not toxic to living things. You should instead use RO or RO/DI (RO = reverse osmosis, DI = de-ionized) water, which you can get either at your local fish store, or you can buy a RO unit for your house for fairly cheap (relative to the cost of the rest of the equipment you already have or are going to buy ;-)).

What kind of fish do you plan on putting in the tank?

The setup looks great! Putting a new tank together and bringing it to life is so much fun, so enjoy, BE PATIENT, and once again welcome!


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## conger (Feb 2, 2008)

I just noticed something else in your picture that I thought I would mention: it looks like your tank is set up right next to a window... that could be a bad thing, as sunlight (especially direct, but even in-direct) can cause horrific algae growth in the tank, and possibly even contribute to heating up the water. I think you'll find that with saltwater tanks, you don't have a problem keeping your tank up to temp, but instead it can be challenging to keep it cool once you get all that equipment added in and running.

You might consider doing something to block any of the sunlight from that window from hitting your tank


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## Carp (Nov 24, 2008)

Thank you for the warm greeting. I will have to study the choices of fishes. Any suggestions? I would also like to put a small crab or shrimp in the tank. When the algae starts growing do I put in clean up crew? What do you suggest for the clean up crew?


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## Carp (Nov 24, 2008)

As for the window I will put up a thermal curtain also this corner of my house is never hit with direct sun light. It is shaded through out the day. Thank you for info.


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## conger (Feb 2, 2008)

Carp said:


> Thank you for the warm greeting. I will have to study the choices of fishes. Any suggestions? I would also like to put a small crab or shrimp in the tank. When the algae starts growing do I put in clean up crew? What do you suggest for the clean up crew?


You're welcome! As far as fishes go, you'll have a pretty decent number of options. I'd stay away from fish like tangs or trigger fish, as even though they are really beautiful, they need large and/or long tanks for ample swimming space. Since you don't plan to keep corals, you don't have to worry about whether or not fish you want to keep are reef-safe or not, but be sure to pay attention to whether or not they have a taste for invertebrates (i.e. clean-up crews)!

I'd suggest first letting your tank cycle, once you see the ammonia and nitrites rise then fall back to zero, do a water change and wait another week, then add your clean-up crew first. A couple/few weeks later, you can begin adding fish. Do so slowly, it can be tough to remain patient, but you'll have a much lower mortality rate, and end up wasting less money and fish lives if you take things slow.

Turbo snails are good, but are pretty big (along with a big appetite) so you might only get one or two of those. Nassarius snails are super-cool, but will need a decently deep sandbed... how many pounds of sand did you order, or otherwise how deep do you plan to make the sandbed? I'm not familiar with the specifics of other individual types of snails off the top of my head, but you can probably get around 20-30 snails total to eat away at your algae. Trochus snails and cerith snails will do a good job of eating algae off your rocks (nassarius will stay almost exclusively in your sand).

Hermit crabs are good too, but some people don't really like them so I don't think they are necessary, I guess its a matter of whether or not you want them. You might also look at getting an emerald mithrax crab, they are good algae eaters, and cool crabs to own. Maybe a skunk cleaner shrimp too, they will keep your fishes cleaned of parasites (though you might wait until you add fish before you get a cleaner shrimp!). Coral banded shrimp are really cool-looking, but can get aggressive towards other inverts, so beware if you go that route. I wouldn't suggest getting a skunk or peppermint shrimp AND a coral banded shrimp, as in a day or two you'll only have a coral banded shrimp ;-).

One random piece of advice relating to your clean-up crew, is that any new saltwater tank will go through one or more phases of algae growth in the first few months, so don't go and buy a large cleanup crew sized for the first algae explosion you see (and don't get frustrated by the large algae explosion! its expected), because after a while the algae will die off and then you'll have a cleanup crew too large for the long-term food supply.


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## Carp (Nov 24, 2008)

Thank you so much for the very helpful reply!! I will print it out. I ordered 150 lbs of fiji white sand. Probably way to much for my tank, but I want 6 inches for my sand bed since it is beneficial for the tank. (that's what I read)

Any more helpful hints so I do not make any rookie mistakes?


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## conger (Feb 2, 2008)

hey no problem. I was lucky enough to catch your post soon after you posted it, but I'm sure others will come along soon as well with much more info that I didn't think of.

150 lbs is good, or I should say having a deep sand bed is a good thing  4 inches is good, and I suppose even deeper can't be bad! Definitely get some nassarius snails then after a while, those guys are so awesome. They stay buried most of the time, with their "noses" sticking up out of the sand like snorkels... when you put food in the tank, they all come shooting up out of the sand and rushing around looking for bits of food that make it to the bottom! They do a good job of keeping the upper-layer of sand stirred up and clean too.

Since you're going with a DSB, I'd suggest not actually vacuuming or disturbing the sand bed when you do water changes. Let your snails and other critters do that for you. Once the sand bed matures and starts doing it's job, if you happen to stir up the depths of it, it could release some toxic stuff that might kill off your tank inhabitants (or so i've heard, I don't know that from personal experience).

Otherwise, I can't think of anything off the top of my head to suggest! Sounds like you're off to a great start. If you weren't already planning on it, you should use this thread or start a new one, and have it be your "tank diary." Lots of people do it on this forum, its a great way to record the progress of your tank, let others see and comment along the way, and especially let others learn who come and read!


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## Carp (Nov 24, 2008)

How often should I test the water?


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## Carp (Nov 24, 2008)

I retested my water and all the test results are the same. I have fully cured rock. So will I even have a cycle?


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## conger (Feb 2, 2008)

thats a good question (do you have a cycle if using cured liverock). My instinct tells me yes, you will still see a sequential rise and fall of ammonia and nitrites, though it may be quicker than cycling with un-cured or no live rock. I hope someone else with experience with this can comment.

I CAN tell you this though: when your tank is fully cycled, you will have a non-zero nitrate reading, and zero ammonia and nitrites. So if your nitrate is still zero, then it hasn't started yet.

You'll only achieve zero nitrates in the long-run, with good protein skimming and a mature deep sand bed (also helps to have a refugium with macro). So you won't bring your tank up immediately into nitrate consumption. So really, until someone else gives more pointed/correct info, use the nitrates as your barometer for when your cycle is done. If nitrates are steadily rising, and ammonia/nitrites staying at zero, then you're good


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## conger (Feb 2, 2008)

starting the cycle (in a non-cured liverock setting) can take a while, it can be a week or more before you start to see any ammonia show up. It will be another couple of weeks before it drops all the way to zero, during which time you will start to see the rise in nitrites begin.

So depending on how long it has been since you put the LR in, it could still be just starting up. Again, regardless of whether or not you see ammonia or nitrites go non-zero, until you see the nitrates going non-zero, you'll know you're not done.


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## Carp (Nov 24, 2008)

Thank you for the info you are helping me out a lot.


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## ajmckay (Oct 28, 2008)

Hey there, sounds like your tank is coming along nicely. I set up my first saltwater tank in September, and things have been going nicely. Sounds like you are taking the time to research things and get opinions so I will add my own. 

There are a few observations that I have made. First off, what is your lighting? Granted for a FOWLR you don't need anything crazy, but you probably want something a little more than a standard fluorescent hood (I can't tell what's on there). 

Next, I would be careful with how much sand you actually put into your tank. If you've done your research I'm sure you know about 'Deep sand beds' and the benefits they can provide. I would, however, be sure that you set it up correctly. You say you ordered 150 lbs? I have a 29 gallon, so thats 12x30 = 360 square inches of bottom and 20 lbs gave me roughly a 1 inch sand bed. I'm not sure what the exact dimensions of your tank are, but I found that a 40 gallon corner has 27" sides. So lets say yours has the same 27" sides and is just shorter than the 40 you have about 365 square inches to work with... similar to mine really. 

I would strongly recommend you do some research as to the types and methods of filtration you are wanting. I guess what I'm trying to say is that a sand bed deeper than 4 inches is usually asking for trouble. If you do want to go with a deep sand bed, then read about using a plenum (basically a system to create an empty space underneath the sand bed to allow a natural flow through it in order to prevent the buildup of toxic substances like hydrogen sulphide). Of course there's more to it than I can easily describe here (I am by no means an expert!), but it's something brought up in a lot of reputable aquarium books and is not an under-gravel filter in the traditional sense since it does not rely on air stones or power-heads. 

As for your clean up crew, I think you've gotten some good advice.. Start off small, maybe a dozen critters, and then add more over the next few months. I started out with 12 hermits about 2 weeks into my cycle. Since then I've added a peppermint shrimp, 3 turbo snails, a longspine urchin, and an emerald crab. I'll probably add some sand sifting snails, and that seems to take care of my tank quite well. Any algae gets taken care of quickly. 

And as stated with your cycling time, even though you bought pre-cured live rock you still have somewhat of a cycle because stuff always dies off when you transport it. Your cycle should be quick though, and you can probably start adding things a week after your sand arrives. As for fish, I would probably wait another 2 weeks and do a water change. With fish, start off slow and do your research (for my first fish I went tank raised, and I'm glad I did!). Don't add more than a fish or 2 at once, and I would stick fairly close to the 1 fish per 10 gallons rule. 

Lastly, how about posting some of your water parameters? Specific gravity/salinity, PH, alkalinity, nitrite, temperature, etc. Good luck, just remember to do everything slowly.


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## Carp (Nov 24, 2008)

Thank you for the information. Today my sand arrived and I added 5 inch sand bed to my tank and it is really cloudy water now. 



















I used 100 lbs of the sand.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

On the subject of sand, 4 inches is the ideal depth for proper denitrification. Deeper is not necessarily better, as the hobby has found out the hard way over the last decade of evolution of the live sand bed. The "acceptable" range is recommended at 3 to 6 inches. I have had the best luck with 4 inches and run my current system with 4 inches, and a zero nitrate reading.

I am a huge believer in hermit crabs and see a huge value. These little guys are always working and picking at the rocks and sand, which is beneficial to discourage detritus from settling. I would personally never run an aquarium without hermits, and suggest about 20-25 blue leg hermits for your size tank. They are only $1.00 each, so what do you have to loose?

I would add about 1/3 of your clean up crew within 1 week of adding your sand bed. The sand is capable of calcifying, so it needs activity to gently stir the surface. GENTLY is key, and you should not disturb the sand yourself. Allow the critters to do it for you.

I would quickly figure out how you are going to handle new fish purchases. Have you set up a quarantine tank yet? If not, this will be very simple. Purchase a small sponge filter and place it down into your live rock for the next week or so. You don't even have to turn it on. The bacteria which are ALREADY present in your live rock will migrate to the sponge. Take the sponge out and run it in your q-tank. A 10 gallon tank will suffice, with a small heater and some PVC pieces for the fish to hide. You should isolate EVERY fish purchase for a minimum of 10 - 14 days prior to adding them to your display. 

I would highly encourage the addition of a UV sterilizer on your display. They are inexpensive (less than $100) and can be a life saver. Literally. I know opinions are mixed on this subject, but I have personally had much better success on systems with UV's. For the record, my fish room at maximum capacity had 14 marine systems running, so my UV experience is vast and diversified. I even run one on my reef and the corals grow like weeds. (Soft coral system.)


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Sand depth and grain size look perfect. Isn't this fun!-)


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## Carp (Nov 24, 2008)

Yes this is very fun!!

My new test results

PH 8.2
Ammonia .25
nitrite 0
nitrate possibly 2.5 between colors I think
salinity 30
gravity 1.0225
temp 76.5

Thank you for all the replies they really help me.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

ajmckay said:


> Next, I would be careful with how much sand you actually put into your tank. If you've done your research I'm sure you know about 'Deep sand beds' and the benefits they can provide. I would, however, be sure that you set it up correctly...
> 
> I guess what I'm trying to say is that a sand bed deeper than 4 inches is usually asking for trouble. If you do want to go with a deep sand bed, then read about using a plenum (basically a system to create an empty space underneath the sand bed to allow a natural flow through it in order to prevent the buildup of toxic substances like hydrogen sulphide).
> 
> ...


There is a lot of great information here. I just want to make sure it is being interpreted correctly, because the first time I read this I wasn't so sure.

On the subject of Deep Sand Beds and Plenums, please realize these are not the same thing. They are 2 very different methods of nitrate removal with different setup and care requirements. I suggest reading anything written by Bob Goemans if you want clarification. The tank in this thread is using a DSB, not a plenum. From observing the pictures, i think he is off to a great start. I personally use a DSB and have found the installation and care easier than with a plenum. I run zero Nitrates in my reef.

On the cycle, I agree with everything said above about the cycle. This is in disagreement with some earlier posts in this thread. The cycle goes very QUICKLY when using cured live rock and it does not take any time at all to begin. Bacteria populations double every 30 minutes (reference: Moe, Systems & Inverts {the blue book}). Any amount of bacteria present on the live rock after transportation is going to very quickly reach a level appropriate for handling the bioload of the given system, IF THE ROCK IS CURED. If the rock is not cured, then the dieoff will be greater than the bacteria can handle and the curing process will determine the time it takes to "cycle". 

For the record... live rock also removes nitrate, although not as effeciently as a DSB system. Anoxic bacteria live deep inside the low water flow areas within the live rock. So, in systems with cured live rock and no fish, you may have zero Nitrate after the cycle.

On the subject of fish, i would ignore all rules of thumb regarding stocking levels. Aggression will limit your capacity long before biomass of livestock. Choose your fish carefully and add them in the proper order. Look for reasons NOT to buy a given fish, purchasing only the healthiest of fish. If your list says you are going to add a Six Line Wrasse next, then you should look at several different specimens and watch them over the period of several visits to the LFS prior to purchase. This will go far to ensuring success.

Finally, don't forget to test for calcium. This is often overlooked and is essential for LONG TERM success. The relationship between alkalinity, calcium, and pH are so closely linked that you must test them all to understand any individual reading with any degree of acuracy. Test calcium from day one and add calcium as necessary. On systems without corals, this will be considerably less, but is still needed. Alternatively, you may increase the frequency and size of water changes, but adding calcium directly is easier.


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## Carp (Nov 24, 2008)

Once again thank you for the replies I rely on your information to help guide me into a successful tank. I will go buy a calcium tester today. I just started to think about fish even though I will not add them till you tell me it is ok. The Yellow Watchman Goby interests me.

Just let me know when you think its safe to add the clean up crew. I will keep posting my water test results.


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## Carp (Nov 24, 2008)

One observation for other newbies, I made a minor mistake by leaving my power heads on while I actually added my sand. This made power heads very noisy. (was afraid I ruined them) They quieted down but I know this a no brainer for many to leave the power head off while pouring in sand. I just have happen to over look the situation.

Maybe it would be best not to add power heads until the sand is already added. 

I just wanted to add this so others do not run into the same situation I did early on.


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## Carp (Nov 24, 2008)

My tank is slowly clearing up. Here is an updated pic.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

You can hold a power head in your hand and gently blow the sand off the live lock.


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

^^ +1 or use a turkey baster or pipette


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## Carp (Nov 24, 2008)

My new test results

PH 8.2
Ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 0
salinity 30
gravity 1.0225
temp 79.5

Here's a pic of the tank it is totally clear and has white algae on the back glass.










Time to add clean up crew?


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## Carp (Nov 24, 2008)

Ok I have my clean up crew 8 hermit crabs, 3 Nassarius snails, 2 small fiddler crabs.

My nassarius snail ate 2 of my live crabs I thought they were suppose to eat only dead things?

Any suggestions?


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

fiddler crabs?

they need a place to get completely out of water.

the nassarious most likely ate a dead one.
i would slowly increase your snail count, with different kinds.
turbo snails, cerith snails, nerite snails, stomatallas..

and just so you know hermit crabs are known for eating snails out of their shells so keep plenty empties laying around the sand.


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## Cody (Dec 22, 2007)

Agreed. All you have is carnivorous inverts. Some Astreas and Turbos should help on the vegetation. 

And fiddler crabs are brackish and as stated, need to be able to get out of the water.


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## conger (Feb 2, 2008)

Any updates Carp? I'm curious to know how the tank is going


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