# What could be wrong with my Ram?



## RackinRocky (Feb 11, 2012)

My young GBR, Sweetpea, is not nearly as interested in food as usual, and is staying near the bottom most of the time, and comparing her to my other Ram, she's not breathing fast, just more heavily than he is. She hasn't lost any of her color though, nor the black line going through her eyes. She is staying hidden a lot too.

Cycled 20 gallon tank
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates 20


I did a 30% water change four days ago. She's in with two BN plecos, a Honey Gourami, some endlers and a Furcata Rainbow. Even when she swims around, now and then, she's just not "herself." I can tell just from her attitude that something is wrong.


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## RackinRocky (Feb 11, 2012)

Here is a pic of her, and this is where she stays most of the time. See the white splotch on her forehead? I don't think that was there before. My PH is 7.6. Forgot to include that. Also, I just checked nitrates again, and they are only 10.


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## angelcraze (Aug 31, 2013)

Is she eating at all? Nitrates of 10ppm aren't too high, but GBR are more sensitive to these things. How often and how much water do you change at a time? How young is she? Try coaxing her to eat with bloodworms or something really tasty like that. You can squirt some with a baster to her or pinch some with long planting tweezers in her hiding spot. 

If she is showing no other signs of disease, (I can't see that splotch you mention) you haven't added anything new into the tank, changed your cleaning schedule, it's hard to tell what's wrong.

If she's old enough, and getting pudgy, (she looks well fed) she could be getting ready to lay eggs. Usually they eat like crazy right before, but I might suggest adding a largish flat rock on the substrate somewhere (a corner maybe) in case she is trying to find a place to spawn. You have a male too, so you never know. Mine spawn on flat rocks. 

If you can, try adding some stem plants to use up the nitrate (as ferts) in between water changes. In my heavily planted tanks, my nitrate registers 0 at all times, just an FYI. (bad for plants good for fish, excellent for fry)

This advice is just general, since I don't know your schedule yet, I will try to help you more with more info.


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## RackinRocky (Feb 11, 2012)

Hi Angelcraze, No, as of this morning, she is no longer eating at all. I change 30-40% water once a week. I also siphon at the same time. She won't even LOOK at food. I will try the bloodworms tonight though. She's a youngster, between 6-8 months old. I forgot to mention the male is in another tank--they've never been together. Thank you so much for replying! I did go ahead and dose the tank with Prazi Pro this morning, since I'd had no responses, and I fear this is getting dire. I also just ordered some Metronidazole online, since, after researching for hours and hours, it seemed the most likely to help her if she DOES in fact, have Hole-in-the-Head disease. I don't know if she laid eggs a few weeks ago or not, but she was behind my driftwood, and coming out and attacking my hand when I did a water change! This only lasted for two days though, and I know they sometimes lay eggs without a male. I ordered the 500mg Metronidazole, not knowing what to get since they also offer 250mg and 400mg. Thank you!


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## angelcraze (Aug 31, 2013)

Sorry to hear she is not eating. PraziPro is a nice easy-on -the-tank dewormer, it can't hurt. I would try to remove the Prazi with carbon/water changes before you try another med though. That's just what I was always advised. You were thinking it was hole-in-the-head because of the lightish mark on her head? From what I can see Metronidazole is pretty safe too, just keep an eye on the ammonia/nitrite just in case. If you have a separate tank to treat her in, that would be better, I've read of fish being completely cured just by putting them into a tank with good water quality. (Not saying your tank has bad water quality, I actually am concerned about my one of my angels right now, and the conditions are perfect in that tank, just what I've read) 

Oh and btw, it sounds like she had eggs behind the wood, that's what the male does when they have eggs, they are VERY protective. The eggs would turn white and fungus up at about the 24 hour mark. 

Sorry you got no responses, I just found this yesterday. Let me know how things go, or if you notice anything else. Let me know how the bloodworm thing goes. If you can get her to eat, you can medicate the food too, I've done this with success for my fish before.


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## RackinRocky (Feb 11, 2012)

Thanks, Angel. You're a doll. She's still with me this morning. I was afraid I'd lose her overnight. Yes, I was planning on a big water change before using the Metronidazole. She looks pretty much the same this morning.

I'm almost 100% sure its hole-in-the-head disease now, after looking at pics online, where the fish has several spots on its head. Her spots look just the same. Now...if she can just hang on long enough for me to get the Metronidazole! I probably won't have it until Thursday or so. And yes, I'll keep an eye on the Ammonia and Nitrites! Thanks for reminding me about that!

I consider my tank to be like you describe yours--very clean. I never miss a water change, and I siphon thoroughly too.

So she* did* have eggs! I had a feeling that must have been what it was that she was all uptight about, lol.
As soon as the bloodworms thaw, I'm going to try to "shoot" some to her in a syringe. Thanks so much for your support. It means a lot. In this pic its easier to see the spots on her head. She has maybe 4 or 5 spots.


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## angelcraze (Aug 31, 2013)

Thanks for the pic, but I can't see them  Hopefully the prazi will do till Thursday, since hole-in-the-head is caused by a parasite Hexamita (at least I think the parasite is called Hexamita) She can go a while without eating, so hopefully she pulls through. Keep us updated!!!


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## angelcraze (Aug 31, 2013)

I meant to add, I've medicated food (pellets, spectrum works well). I let them soak in water (just enough to cover the pellets and half a packet of antibiotics for an hour or two, but what I wanted to say is that I crushed some garlic in there too. Just regular garlic bulbs. I picked the pieces out before feeling, but the garlic really stank it up. Apparently, garlic improves the taste of food for fish and encourages them to eat. A great side benefit is that garlic helps kill parasites.


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## RackinRocky (Feb 11, 2012)

Really? You can't see those white spots on her face? Anyway, the garlic wouldn't help at this point, as she won't even look at food. I think she's too busy just trying to breathe. I will try soaking some food in garlic tomorrow for the morning feeding. I'm willing to try anything!


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## angelcraze (Aug 31, 2013)

Oh, ok, I see them now that you say spots, sorry, I was looking for patches. It helps if I read :{ It's not ich right? Those spots have not moved or disappeared in a while? I think if she's not eating, you'll have to dose the whole tank with metro, but I think that was your plan anyway. It always helps to medicate food as well, maybe later on when she improves. Good luck. Wish I had more advice to offer, like I said, I am worried about one of my angelfish right now too with this. Maybe someone else has better advice?? Anyone??

And I am an idiot, Prazi is not for hexamita. You probably knew that from your research.


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## RackinRocky (Feb 11, 2012)

The spots are bigger than Ich. The spots just appeared about a week ago, when I thought it was natural, that she might be changing color or something. So it's been coming on for a while. Now, today, she is getting pop-eye! Both her eyes are bulging. Not real bad, but it sure worries me.

Yes, my plan is to dose the whole tank with Metro. Prazi, from what I read, is good for external parasites. I thought maybe that's what she had in the beginning. Now I know that something more must be going on. Here's a frontal pic of her from this morning. As you can see, her eyes are bulging. I fed bloodworms soaked in garlic, shot from a syringe right over her. It fell to both sides of her, and she just looked, but no effort to try to eat.

What's going on with your Angel? Does it have spots too?


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## angelcraze (Aug 31, 2013)

Awwwww. That sucks so bad. I don't what to suggest. I will say that I visited the LFS for my angelfish today. He has popeye too, but bloated as well. It's a classic sign of internal bacterial infection. I've been giving him marcyn 2 medicated food for a week because he was still eating, but then he stopped the last two days. I dosed the whole tank with Seachem Kanaplex today. I would have to do more reading to find out Metro helps with popeye or not. I can let you know how it goes with my angel for now, I know it's different, there are no head spots, but hopefully the feedback can help you later if not now. I really hope all goes well and you get your meds in soon.


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## RackinRocky (Feb 11, 2012)

I received the Metro today! Super fast shipping! I was so happy. I dosed the tank this morning, and now, only five hours later, she's more active. Not just sitting at the bottom all the time, but occasionally swimming around for a couple of minutes or so. It's the most active she's been in 4-5 days. I know it couldn't have worked THAT fast, but still... I am beginning to have hope. She still is not eating, but the spots have not grown or increased. She's still breathing just as hard.

I've used Maracyn, Maracyn II, Furan 2 and Kanaplex in the past, and lost all but one fish to what I thought was columnaris. Now that I know more, it could have been a parasite all along. Anyway, I know lots of people have had luck with it, so you might too. The trouble with these fish is, sometimes it's so hard to tell what the problem is! I know the Popeye can be secondary to something else, so really, the primary problem has to be addressed. This is driving me batty, reading about all the medications, and trying to decide what to use! Sometimes I wonder if some people don't over medicate their fish, trying to find the cure, and all the meds end up killing them! So frustrating.

I've read conflicting reports on if Metro helps with Popeye or not. Some swear it does, and others say it didn't help at all. I know that many people do the daily water changes and notice a huge difference in just a few days. I'm changing 30-50% daily right now, and I don't know if that has helped or not. I've seen too many of my fish seem to get much better, only to die not long afterward, so I'm trying not to get too sanguine. It seems they get an energy streak shortly before dying. 

I've noticed my Ram's fins are up more often today too. They aren't nearly clamped like they were before. 

I used 500mg of Metro (I got the pills, so I crushed them up) on my 20 gallon tank. And I will dose again tonight (Metro loses its effectiveness in about eight hours). I will do that for the next three days, then drop the dosing down to once a day until 10 days are up. 

I'm so sorry about your Angel. Sounds so much like my Ram. Eating and active, and then poof--not active and not eating. You really have to watch these fish like hawks to see any subtle changes when they start getting sick. I have not mastered that yet. It seems that by the time I see something is wrong, they are already pretty ill. 

My Ram is not bloated like your angel. Is your Angel breathing rapidly?


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## angelcraze (Aug 31, 2013)

I actually started a thread with all the things going on in my tank, and I don't want to hijack your story. Thanks for asking, but I was just using my angel (I have more issues than just that, unfortunately, to try to help you with your fish.

That's great that she seems to be livelier!! Idk, maybe the meds are making her feel better. Idk how long it takes for the them to kill the parasite or whatever is causing the hole-in-the-head. That's a good sign that she is holding her fins up a bit again too. 

Yes, I totally agree, the majority of people over medicate their fish because they just don't know what's going on, and it is so hard to figure out. I give you props by researching it extensively and observing carefully before making a diagnosis. I do not want to add countless different types of meds into my tank either, so I am waiting until I observe and figure things out. Lol, we are not doctors, but sometimes I feel I have to educate myself as one to take care of my fish. The environment they live in is so volatile, I have not had any problems for years, these are old fish, but then, without adding anything, crap just happened. It was because I haven't dealt with anything for such a long time that I let my guard down. I have only had fish tanks for 10 years. I haven't got to the point yet when fish get old and are just more vulnerable. So we have to watch new fish in quarantine like hawks (give in) but also old fish.

The good thing about your thread is that it will be documented, what you did, for yourself or to help someone else.

Good luck with her!!!!!!


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## angelcraze (Aug 31, 2013)

I accidentally posted twice, so I deleted the duplicate


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## Jasperdog (Jul 12, 2014)

WOW guys the spots are ich you WILL want to get rid of it immediately!!!!!!!!!! raise the water temp and add aquarium salt!!!!!!!!! lol


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## angelcraze (Aug 31, 2013)

Jasperdog said:


> WOW guys the spots are ich you WILL want to get rid of it immediately!!!!!!!!!! raise the water temp and add aquarium salt!!!!!!!!! lol


No offence Jasperdog, but I don't think it's funny. 

To make an assumption like that, you would have to know the temp already, because at higher temps the trophozoite stage would have already been completed by now and the ich parasite would have entered the tomont stage, divided and infected other fish or the same stressed fish at least in different areas. The post was started on the 15th, at temps of 80F, the ich parasite has already gone through it's life cycle and multiplied. Those 'spots' would have fallen off and reinfected. I also never had a fish hide and refuse to eat because of ich. Generally, the spots are smaller also, it sounds like RackinRocky was already familiar with ich anyway, as is the case with most new and experienced aquarist, and he/she claims that "the spots are bigger than ich". 

Have you even looked at what hole-in-the-head lesions look like? I will tell you RackinRocky has spent hours researching it, so I doubt you have.

But thanks for belittling us both. Sorry if I am touchy, just don't want to steer anyone the wrong way with uneducated answers.

If anyone has any constructive advice it is totally welcome.


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## RackinRocky (Feb 11, 2012)

I get you, Angel. I hate it when people make ignorant posts too. Thanks for standing up for me. Yep, my other fish in that tank would also have obvious Ich by now, and not a single one has anything on them. I've seen Ich, as I mentioned before, and these spots are MUCH larger than a grain of salt. 

Today is day two of the Metro, and she is looking much the same. Looked better last night, but today... not so much. Staying on the gravel and not moving much. I don't know what else to do at this point. Like you said, sometimes we just have to "wait and see." So there's really nothing new to report. I will check out your thread on your Angel. I'm routing for you and your fish too!


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## angelcraze (Aug 31, 2013)

Any new reports? How is she doing? It's been 3ish days of treating with Metro, on the bottle I have, it says "partial... water changes using 'ultimate' must be made prior to the beginning of treatment and every 24 hours for 5 to 7 days or until...healing of lesions occur."

I think Ultimate is just a "stress coat" type water conditioner, with aloe of something to help healing as well as removing all the ammonia/chloramine from fresh municipal water. Might be a good idea if you have some actually.

Edit: You already use a water conditioner that takes care of chloramine right? I read about it, because I use Prime, but that all it is. Hikari does have a product called 'Stress-X' which I thought is what Ultimate was. I may get some Stress-x for myself actually.


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## angelcraze (Aug 31, 2013)

Good luck


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## RackinRocky (Feb 11, 2012)

Just to let anyone know who has been following this thread, my Sweetpea died a couple of days ago. I was too upset to even post about it. There were no lesions or bloating or even fin rot, just the head lesions. Its good to put the conclusion on this thread too, in case it might help anyone else who has had a similar problem. I did all I could for her, but apparently I caught it too late. RIP Sweetpea.


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## Jasperdog (Jul 12, 2014)

no... no... NOOOOOOO OMG NOOOOOO0OO00O0OO0 DUDE THAT SUCKS SOOO BAD OMG I FEEL REALLY BAD! s.i.p


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## RackinRocky (Feb 11, 2012)

Thanks, Jasperdog. She's in a better place now...


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## Jasperdog (Jul 12, 2014)




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## angelcraze (Aug 31, 2013)

RIP Sweetpea.


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