# Starting Questions



## pretzelsz (Jan 14, 2010)

OK so I have wanted to start my tank for awhile now i bought live sand and have dry rock and I have all the necessary equipment to start besides LIVE rock and lighting(which I will be purchasing online very soon).

My question is if I can put in the DRY rock and the sand into the tank once I have my light and add Live rock as i get the money and be patient on the amount of time I wait to get fish and a CUC. The sand I have will turn dry rock to live rock slowly and it expires soon. Is it possible to start it?

Thank you


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

in short yes you can.... as you are not dealing with live stock yet toss a normal light on or even a grow bulb (6500K) and then you are on your way.....


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## pretzelsz (Jan 14, 2010)

I heard that you need a certain amount of k to have the live rock "grow"like the copepods.

Also Would I need to do the once bi-weekly changes after everything is in line still even without livestock?


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

nope if you are running a skimmer and at least a 6500K bulb just let it go it will be fine


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## pretzelsz (Jan 14, 2010)

OK thanks! The light I'm getting is this http://shop.aquatraders.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=52211 12000k.

Is that light system good? I'm not sure and I will order tomorrow hopefully depending on what I hear


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## outpost (Mar 30, 2010)

pretzelsz said:


> OK thanks! The light I'm getting is this http://shop.aquatraders.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=52211 12000k.
> 
> Is that light system good? I'm not sure and I will order tomorrow hopefully depending on what I hear


That would be a great light. aquatraders had a reputation in the past for being cheap on their products but they have really stepped up their game in the past year. With that light you will be able to keep sps no problem if your tank is a 55gallon. If it's bigger you will want to place the sps at the ver top of your reef structure. 

Also, don't run your skimmer during the cycle. That will defeat the purpose of the cycle. I really doubt that your "live sand" you bought is even alive by now. Your beast bet would be to go downs to your lfs and but a smLl piece if live rock and put your sand and dry rock in. The live rock will seed the sand also. 


It would be best to do a very thin sand layer in your tank. Your sand should have and average depth of a half inch to and inch.
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## pretzelsz (Jan 14, 2010)

Thanks ya my sand is dead but i have 40lb of non live with me too. I tried purchasing the light system and it said I had an unconfirmed address. I will try with another payment method. As soon as I have the money I will go out and buy the live rock needed to seed it and I have changed my plans to attempt to make it a mostly coral tank and make it look great and colorful. My Protein skimmer is really loud so any advice for that? it's a hang-on skimmer and a glass aquarium and I wanted an overflow system but they are out of my price range.


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## outpost (Mar 30, 2010)

What size tank do you have? Make sure you have a shallow sand bed. Depending on what skimmer you have I could help you with the noise thing. A reef tank will be Awesome. I have a 30 gallon reef with a 1 year anniversary tomarrow. It's come a long way. If you have and questions feel free to pm me. 
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## pretzelsz (Jan 14, 2010)

This might be a stupid question but I was reading an article on lionfish today and found a couple of them that were suited for my tank I came up with the Pterois antennata (Spot finned lion) and the Dendrochirus biocellatus (Fu Man Chu lion)would either of these beautiful fish be suited for my tank/experience? I would wait awhile to get corals in my tank first if that was a good idea. I have read they are disease resistant and are venomous and like to hide under rocks in cave and will eat ghost shrimp while adapting to the tank then will start to eat prepared food. Any feedback would be appreciated along with facts that would be helpful whether it be saying NO to the idea or a temp problem( I had been reading on cold water ones) :thankyou:


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## outpost (Mar 30, 2010)

A fuzzy dwarf lionfish is around the same size and is a lot less expensive than the Fu man chus I know for sure. I have a fuzzy dwarf in my 30 gallon reef and he doesn't bother anybody. He has been in there for about 8 months and hasn't bothered anybody or grown. He's about 3" long. 

It would he fine for you to have a lionfish but really limits the types of really cool inverts yu can have. Also you has to get your other reef fish at a bigger size so they don't get eaten. 


Again WHAT SIZE IS YOUR TANK?? !!!!!! 

Also corals aren't as hard to keep as everyone says. They are relatively easy if you know how to do a few simple things. You don't have to hold off on getting corals. Once your tank is done cycling you can go ahead and get a couple of sorties and see how you do with them.
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## pretzelsz (Jan 14, 2010)

I sent you a PM about it it is a 55 gallon tank 4 feet long I'll look into a fuzzy I read about them too. If I was to get one would I be able to buy a bunch of live ghost shrimp or would I have to raise them? or is there another way? How did you get yours(if you did) to get it to eat prepared food?


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## outpost (Mar 30, 2010)

I think it took mine a couple days to get acclimated to it's new environment but after that it started eating mysis shrimp right away. I never had to do live food for him. At your LFS (if they do salt) will most likely have silversides which are little frozen fish that you can feed him. Lionfish are very personable. He's like a dog and gets really happy when I come into the room. He is always hungry. Also I've never had any problems with him when my hand is in the tank. He swims right by me and doesn't give it a second thought. You still want to be careful not to come down on him from the top cause it's the dorsal spines that are venomous. If you did have to get ghost shrimp would definitely breed them. Just get a little 5 gallon tank and make lots of places for them to hide.
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## pretzelsz (Jan 14, 2010)

Thanks for the advice outpost. What else do you feed him besides mysis shrimp? anything? I would probably feed Mysis and silversides. is that good or is there other food they need in thy're diet? Also if he is my only and first fish do I need to QT him?


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## outpost (Mar 30, 2010)

Feed mine some bait squid sometimes. No you don't kneed to quarantine him of he's your first fish. I have never had to quarantine my fish. My lfs is super nice and clean. You can have other reef fish in there just nothing small enough to fit in his mouth like a clown goby
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## pretzelsz (Jan 14, 2010)

Thank you for all the help I hate to ask more questions but I was researching sumps(used the article) outpost provided me with a link to an external overflow http://shop.aquatraders.com/Continuous-Siphon-Overflow-Box-600-p/44011.htm I was wondering if and how I could make a sump out of that plus a custom built tank( i can fit up to 24in long 10ing depth and i have 20in clearance so 1 foot tall). I want to look at this concept and see if it will work better for me so if someone could help me I will make a sketch-up of the sump size.

Here's the sump dimensions I know a few things I NEED but I don't know how to set it up that's were I need help


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## outpost (Mar 30, 2010)

I think that is the same dimension of a 15 gal tank. If it's not the depth of the 15 is definatly 12" depth being the front to back dimension. If the 15 doesn't fit you could use a 10
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## pretzelsz (Jan 14, 2010)

Would it be better to custom build it because the baffles will go in easier. also a 15 gallon high would be the biggest to fit and it would leave me with 2" free to get my hands in but a 10 gallon would fit fine and would probably be the biggest I could fit at 24" long 8.5" wide, and 13" tall. But how would I build one? How would the overflow reach it(what piping/tubing is required) sumps, would it be quieter or louder then what I have already?


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## outpost (Mar 30, 2010)

You could definately muffle the nois of the skimmer complete enclosing the stand of the tank and putting some sound board on the inside but just the regular wood of the stand will help a lot. Sometimes the back of stands are , well there is no back. Based on your situation I think that you should custom build a tank. Search rickets reef k YouTube and go to his page. He has a vid that will show you how. If you have to get a new skimmer because it will go in the sump some like to be of the water only about 6 inches. Then you could build your tank height to about 8 or 9 in. 

Plotter better yet don't bother with a sump. They are not required to have a great tank. It seems like this is your first tank and I think it would be good to keep it simple. I don't even have a skimmer on my 30 gallon reef and all my SOS lps and sorties are doing awesome. You don't have to use your skimmer either. Activated carbon does the same thing that a skimmer does in theory. It absorbs nitrates and a skimmer removes them into a collection cup. 

If I were you I would have my powerheds in the tank and my heater and just deal with the skimmer and get it to be quiet. The deadline is a popular skimmer and I'm sure you could find a lot of help with it.
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## pretzelsz (Jan 14, 2010)

I will probably make a sump because it will take awhile to cycle the tank and because it seems more efficient and user friendly. Thank you for all your help outpost! I hate to ask but 2 more questions.

1.) If I build a sump do I need a heater running in the tank while cycling?

2.) What fish could I keep with the Lionfish? I thought that I could put a couple of Clowns in while the lion is a juvinile so he'll see them as friends not a nice snack. or some other +4" fish


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## outpost (Mar 30, 2010)

It would be best if you used a heater while cycling.you can keep whatever fish you want with the lion fish. They stay small. I eould say don't get a fish under an inch and a half. Feel free to ask as many questions as you want. I love to answer them.
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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

outpost said:


> Also corals aren't as hard to keep as everyone says. They are relatively easy if you know how to do a few simple things. You don't have to hold off on getting corals. Once your tank is done cycling you can go ahead and get a couple of sorties and see how you do with them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Like most other things in this hobby, it depends on the coral you choose to keep.  Some are indeed very easy to care for.

What size tank?


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## pretzelsz (Jan 14, 2010)

My 55 gallon tank I wanted to start before. I bought the lighting(shipping to me now) and have sand and dry rock. Will buy live rock when I get my light. while my tank cycles I want to make a sump to make my skimmer quieter and take care of the micro bubbles it makes. I just need a nice simple design. I will go measure my skimmer to see how I can build it because I have a clue on how to build one. When I have an idea I will draw it up and share for ideas and comments/suggestions.


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## pretzelsz (Jan 14, 2010)

So my protein skimmer(plus the pump) is 6in x 8in basically. To design the sump what should i have beside just the skimmer and the baffles? the tank would be 10 gallon long if I buy one or 24" long x 10" width x 12" tall(up to 16" for a 4" clearance) if I make it. What should I put in it? And ho much space should I have for my water flow in and my return? and with of2f's advice I will(if I make a sump) go with 700 gph Overflow complete kit - Glass-Holes.com dope aquarium stuff there is also a 1500gph one but that seems overpowered. Advice? Keep in mind I have a small budget I want it under let's say $100 excluding pvc pipes($20 I'm guessing for that)


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## outpost (Mar 30, 2010)

I don't know that much about sump design cause I don't have one. You could make a space in the sump for a refugium. I guess fkr the return section it would be good to have like an inch of clearance on each side. I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter that much.
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## pretzelsz (Jan 14, 2010)

OK then I need a model of a pump for the returning water to base a size from for making a picture of how everything will fit


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## outpost (Mar 30, 2010)

Just find the pum you want to use and find the measurements of it and go off that
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## pretzelsz (Jan 14, 2010)

*Sump design*

OK so I found the mag 9.5 pump(when ready will buy on ebay new) I got the measurements from the site and made a design of if I built a custom sump. If I built a sump from a 10 gallon tank I would still be able to fit everything I believe just 2" in width and height are removed. I have the measurements of all the sides and such for the tank to scale in pixels (20 pixels= 1") Please suggest things. ask questions point out problems. remember nothing is set in gold yet so please advise tweaks I am new so I think I have alot of things wrong. I might make a new thread for it as well for more attention from others but without further adoo the design








'Note: the pipes in the image are 1" pvc pipes and rock stands for live rock maybe with a sponge on it'


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

a few things










the drain pipe can go into a little box constructed on the side, shown in orange. this will allow the water to flow up and over said little box and slow the flow down allowing you to have a deep sand bed ( 4'' - 6'' ) if you wanted without the water blowing it all around. i dont suggest keeping rock in this area as the slow flow tends to allow debris to get caught within the rocks and gives it a chance to break down and turn into nitrates/phosphates. 
the bubble trap piece in the middle doesnt need to go all the way to the top. the ball valve coming back to the skimmer, or even back to the first chamber if you wanted it to allows you to fine adjust the flow of the pump to the display tank. youll want the pvc to come down farther then ive shown in the picture to prevent splashing ( which leads to more salt creep ) 
also dont be afraid to put unions on your plumbing to allow you to take things apart down the road, esp on the pump incase it needs to be changed or cleaned.

what are the sizes of each compartment?


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## pretzelsz (Jan 14, 2010)

the first compartment is 7 inches from the side to the 8" baffle. The middle section is 10" from the 8" baffle to the first 6"baffle. the baffles are 1" apart from each other adding up to 2". The last section is 5". I was also told on another forum that I need at least a 20 gallon and to take out the Live rock because it creates debris.


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## pretzelsz (Jan 14, 2010)

So I mixed the advice I got and made this design. Same thing with the LR and a sponge on it for more filtration and a light fixture for 6500k if that is enough for a sponge coral. here it is please give me advice and everything. It is the same scale in a 20 gallon tank that will go behind the stand. Also everything has a measurement that is needed. I do want to know if there is a pump other than the mag 9.5 that will work and be less noisy/heat generating.


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

an external pump would create the least heat. i personally would not do the live rock or sponge. both of these catch debris and allow them to break down. i would use chaeto algae in place of the rocks, with that 6500K light.
the middle baffle of the bubble trap does not need to go all the way to the top of the tank. this only needs to go above the other 2 baffles a few inchs. 

also keep in mind your water level will be 8inches high ( the highest baffle ) and evaporation occurs in the pump section of the sump.


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## pretzelsz (Jan 14, 2010)

Oh ya i forgot to mention it wasn't going all the way to the top I was doing that to keep it to scale. So what are your recommendations to change? I think I have a 20 gallon tank lying around up north were I am going soon and I can pick it up. So I should have the algae before or after the skimmer? I will start up a new design with an external pump and a refugium type section


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

if this was mine i would do it

| skimmer (inlet) | bubble trap | return pump | bubble trap | refuge( inlet) |

i would split the drain to go to either side with the return in the center. i would put the heater(s) and carbon/phosban reactors if your using them in the pump section ( center ) i would use chaeto as my macro algae in the refuge and also have a 4'' - 6'' sand bed there as well. the refuge side would need the little box ( illustrated in orange above ) to prevent the sand from blowing around. you could also add 2 - 3 live rock pieces here and rotate one a week up to the display. doing this will allow for micro life to journey up to your display. i would be very carefully about the placement of the rocks though as you dont want them to catch/start building up debris since its such a low flowing area. just an idea.


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## pretzelsz (Jan 14, 2010)

I like that idea I will look into it for space and get back to you. I also found Marineland Maxi-Jet Submersible Utility Powerhead Pump 4500, 1175 gph would that work? seems quieter and makes less heat. now to see if I can make your idea work. I like it.


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## pretzelsz (Jan 14, 2010)

New design hopefully I can conclude soon but I like this design very efficient and nice. One question though. Should I have the T and the ball valve. If so were should it lead? here is the image and it did work out BUT I don't know if it can hold a 4" sand bed unless I raised the baffles which is possible.


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

i would t and ball valve it back to the skimmer section.


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## pretzelsz (Jan 14, 2010)

How high should the baffles be. So this would still work with a power outage and whatnot.


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

the overflow really determines that as well as the return line. if and when the power fails ( and it will someday ) the water siphons back down until it catches some air to break the siphon. you can fix this by putting a tiny hole in the return line ( make sure its under water as to not spray everywhere ) and when the water siphons up to that hole it will stop the siphon. keep in mind its going to bring a few gallons from the tank as well as whatever water is still in your plumbing. 
after EVERYTHING is all set up i would do a test power loss to see what it would look like if you really did lose power.


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## pretzelsz (Jan 14, 2010)

So would it be ok to have the 6" baffles turn to 8" baffles and the 5" baffles to 7-8" baffles. Also does it need to be a 4" sandbed in the refuge? or can it be smaller? I will have rock solid plans hopefully by the time I get my light system and the 20 gallon tank.


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## outpost (Mar 30, 2010)

Put some Miracle mud in the place where you were going to put the sand. Look it up on YouTube. The tanks that use it are outstanding. They reccomend that you don't use a skimmer when you use the mud because it is unnecessary. Look it up.
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## pretzelsz (Jan 14, 2010)

I looked it up and found out what is was. THEN I looked up what people in the hobby thought about it. It was a mixed and from what I can tell I like the DSB idea more but I don't know if I have the space for one in the sump would one be recommended for the display and a 3" one in the sump with the algae in it? I am going to get the tank and the acrylic soon then I just need the overflow and the pump and I am ready to go. P.S. I am going to have my tank drilled by a glass company to be on the safe side. I can finally pcture my tank in my head! Happy days. So 1 1/2 PVC drain to sump 1" pvc leading to the tank in a tactical spot making another source of flowing water for corals. Thoughts/comments/ideas are helpful :thankyou:


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

id suggest the mud for mangroves but sand would be fine. if you do choose to use sand though, 4'' - 6'' for a DSB. in the display tank same thing, or an inch or less. any other depth seems to trap detritus and debris. 
it does sound like it is going to be a nice setup and i applaud you for taking your time to research.


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## pretzelsz (Jan 14, 2010)

What would you recommend for the display tank depth? What would you recommend for the sump a DSB or the mud? If I got the mud do I need the skimmer? I own the skimmer right now so yeah... And I need a final design soon because I am going to get the panels as soon as I get the cash for the overflow system. Yes it will hopefully be a beautiful tank. I am going to take it slow and once I get comfortable with it I will start getting nice corals. 

Also I want to get the lionfish and I am hesitant to look at other fish to get. I was thinking the classic clowns and I wanted a jawfish but since I am getting the lionfish it doesn't seem wise. And since I want it to be a reef less fish the better because the risk for disease needing medication.


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

i would go with the DSB in the sump and display personally. you'd need your skimmer either way IMO.


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## pretzelsz (Jan 14, 2010)

OK DSB it is! so with the sump how high should I have the baffles for the algae? 9" would leave 5" for the algae with a 4" sandbed in it. if I was to have a DSB everywhere I would have to get more sand all I have is 40LB of sand and the live sand I have is expired now(it was 40lb of live and 40lb of normal sand). I also have 60lb of dry rock so I would need to have either alot of live rock to seed it with or wait a long time for it to turn. Also I am going to let the coraline be my background.


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## pretzelsz (Jan 14, 2010)

Final design unless the tank is shorter than planned. Also where should I put the heater? Sump or Tank? Also since I am putting Rock in first and maybe the crate stuff to dampen the weight would a sandbed at 4" still be considered a 4" one?


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

just a question what the black things on the inlets are? i would just put the heater(s) in the return pump area.


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## lostperspective (Aug 24, 2010)

*I've bought my first tank & a few plants now..*

oops


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## pretzelsz (Jan 14, 2010)

they are just little things to lessen the flow stregnth initially.I'll have more later I have work to do right now


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## pretzelsz (Jan 14, 2010)

SO they make it so the pip will come down hit the bottom of the black piece then flow out the slots into the chambers. Benefits are no splashing the sand or the water, Won't push the Chaeto algae down. Cons: less flow into the sump(maybe). Sorry but one more question

1. Although I have done alot of research I do not have an RO system(might be able to get one but slim chance). If I cannot get one then what should I use to fill the tank?(preferably a cheap way not costing $100 to fill the tank and like $20 for water changes...if possible) I have heard distilled water(expensive) and RO water but where can I find RO water without an RO system?


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

pretzelsz said:


> SO they make it so the pip will come down hit the bottom of the black piece then flow out the slots into the chambers. Benefits are no splashing the sand or the water, Won't push the Chaeto algae down. Cons: less flow into the sump(maybe). Sorry but one more question
> 
> 1. Although I have done alot of research I do not have an RO system(might be able to get one but slim chance). If I cannot get one then what should I use to fill the tank?(preferably a cheap way not costing $100 to fill the tank and like $20 for water changes...if possible) I have heard distilled water(expensive) and RO water but where can I find RO water without an RO system?


this bring up some interesting debates and varying solutions
you can get an RO unit at home depot for half what they cost through hobby vendors
you can by all bottled salt water or bottled RO water
personally (and i know i get some slack for this) i use tap water treated with start-right (i prefer the powder) after treating the water and letting it sit i then mix my own salt into it (i like instant ocean but there are many to chose from and all have their benefits...

for top off i get water from a natural spring near by and add that with out treatment as it is not chemically enhanced.....


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