# Discussion: Fewer Water changes / No water changes



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Based of something that came up in another thread ~ Let's start a new discussion here:

*Fewer w/c OR no w/c*
* Factor no 1 coming to my mind for less w/c would be co2 in the planted tanks that plants need less w/c more co2 for the plants right?
* Another idea coming from my shrimp tank they do get little w/c and NO gravel vac (well sand) anyway that created a lot mulm built ups pretty quickly; judging from my set ups the plants love that sorta like manure on the garden I'd say.
* While giving all this some thought how about sponge filtration in small planted tank; would it then not also be beneficial to have the filters on a timer and not run them 24/7 to not run too much co2 out then

Coming to mind here as a advocate in the freshwater world for very seldom w/c would be Diana Walstad.

As a baseline for this discussion I'd like to focus on planted tank that are not overstocked as we know non planted tanks need different care, same applies to overstocked tank.

Everybody let's see pro's & con's for fewer w/c here please :-D
1) What's better smaller but weekly w/c?
2) Larger w/c but only every few weeks?
3) No w/c at all and let tanks do their natural thing?
Let's see what idea's we can come up with :-D 

For my end I have set up my small 2g now with gravel and lights and fully planted and a handful snails in there; no sponge filter nadda and I will not do w/c over the next weeks and see how this will develop and report back.


----------



## Mean Harri (Dec 14, 2009)

I think the determining factor would be nitrates. Once they build up to nearing unhealthy levels the water has to be changed. Apart from that what is the benefit? Most water contains the mineral, etc... that our plants need. Those will be depleted. But, I think most people with planted tanks fertilize. Of course there are those that never had to.

Additionally, doing no wc and adding top off water would add small amounts co2. Larger water changes add a lot more co2 to the tank and create swings. This should be interesting to discuss.


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

I think while "testing" my mini tank there i'd go based of the Nitrites (NO2) as in a tank set up a raise from NO2 to a concentration of 0.5 mg/l can already be bad. NO3 (on a cycled planted tank) to raise past 50mg/l is impossible IMO unless you REALLY screwed up something  

Huh I think I'm not all there with the more co2 when doing more w/c what you said? If I do a large w/c let's say cause I had to medicate then I see a LOT o2 bubbles in the tank afterwards?

I think its interesting too and personally I'd be willing to even "test" on my 55g - not that I like to use the word "test" on my live fish but you know what I mean - Check all water parameters regular and see what happens if I don't do a w/c in 2-3 weeks. But my 55g being MY 55g....How would that support alage to thrive is my question?


----------



## Mean Harri (Dec 14, 2009)

I believe the bubbles you see in that tank after a wc are co2 bubbles. Tap water has a lot of co2 in it. 
This all may hinge on individual tap water results as well. In my case, my nitrates are high out of the tap. I have been letting my tank water ride and not done a water change since a few days after adding fish when I saw the nitrites at .25ppm. All parameters have been stable since and the nitrates of 30ppm that my tap has, and consequently my tank, have reduced in the tank to 10-15ppm. That is surely due to the plants.

Good luck with your test. I subscribed to this thread. Let's roll


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Hm so in your new set up that's been up now what for ~8weeks? You only done 1 w/c right?
See I always cycle fishless as ya'll know and never do w/c until way later....so in a cycled tank obviously the bacteria is working and doing its thing once its cycled....

Well the non-filtered plant tank has been set up yesterday so let's see over the next 2-3 weeks what's gonna happen there.

The 55g I'd be afraid to "test" right this second until after I done all my reading (mainly algae concern here) AND I only have Ammonia & Nitrite test left; am out of my nitrate bottle...so I gotta buy a new one before any "test" on my fish along these lines would start. 

Hopefully any/ all others will chime in with their ideas; also thinking of the other thread hopefully Byron & Pasfur will join too....


----------



## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

This thread is certainly not helping my procrastination mind set. I've been sitting here on the forum for the last few hours, knowing I need to get off my butt and go do my water change on my display tank. Now I'm thinking, "Hey, I'll volunteer my tank as an experiment!". Interesting thread, carry on.


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Go for it; as long as you have a test kit on hand and can test regularly why not! You're is mildly stocked and well planted so why not


----------



## Mean Harri (Dec 14, 2009)

My tank was up and running with water only for one week. Valentine's Day weekend is when I got my plants and planted it. That was Sunday. I planted it Friday the 12th of Feb. Had .25ppm nitrites on Tues. or Wed, did a partial water change, and it's been fine since. No further water changes since then.


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

So 2 weeks without w/c then right? How long do you wanna go without doing one?


----------



## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

Angel079 said:


> So 2 weeks without w/c then right? How long do you wanna go without doing one?


A filterless tank without W/C's would be similiar to a biosphere...
Kind of how I was planning on treating my invert 5g tank, so I'm interested.

One note on putting the sponge filter on a timer-
I actually read one book that reccomended turning the filter/airstone off 2 hours before the lights come on, and on 2 hours before the lights go off.
The reasoning is that plants absorb 02 AND co2 during photosynthesis, but their O2 production is waegh more than their intake.
When the lights go off however, photosynthesis stops- no more CO2 intake and no more o2 production, but they still take small amts of O2.

At least, I'm assuming. I know terrestrial plants do. Thats why hydroponics has to have an airstone on the roots.

MAybe tap water does have CO2, but I would think the simple act of running the water into a bucket would agitate it enough to force most of it out. I think the production of CO2 in the tank would outweigh the CO2 from frequent WC's- ie you're taking out more than you're putting in..

Oh, and my 10gal with cichlid fry has been set up for about 2 months now...
I think I've probably done 2 WC's and gravel vac'd for 5 minutes the entire time.
I'm not sure where the nitrates are going- maybe the algae are using it?
There's some java moss and java ferns... that's about it for plants... 

Algae's not a problem for me anyway. I just scrape off the front glass, abd treat the rest as if it were a plant. It's not really ugly or anything.
Same with my guppy tank- I keep the front and side glass scraped, but the rocks and rear glass have a lot... The guppies like to eat it, and it filters the water. What's the harm?


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

redchigh said:


> One note on putting the sponge filter on a timer-
> I actually read one book that reccomended turning the filter/airstone off 2 hours before the lights come on, and on 2 hours before the lights go off.
> The reasoning is that plants absorb 02 AND co2 during photosynthesis, but their O2 production is waegh more than their intake.
> When the lights go off however, photosynthesis stops- no more CO2 intake and no more o2 production, but they still take small amts of O2.


Interesting assumption makes sense to me the way you explain it. Would be nice if I could figure out a way that when the timer clicks the lights on/off it'll do the opposite to the power for the air pump (for the sponge filter) will have to consult my McGiver here.

As for the planted shrimp tank that's pretty much the same set up then I have running now just w/out shrimp (for the moment anyway lol) so I'll keep you posted.


----------



## Mean Harri (Dec 14, 2009)

Angel079 said:


> So 2 weeks without w/c then right? How long do you wanna go without doing one?


Yeppers - 2 weeks. I don't know how long. My parameters are excellent. Nitrates holding at 10ppm from 30ppm. That's great news for me. I'm hesitant to do a wc because my tap water will take that back to 30ppm in the tank. Or at least 20ppm once diluted in there. I don't want that. I'm looking at a RO unit for drinking water and can use that to mix with the tap water.


----------



## stephanieleah (Oct 31, 2009)

okay, i've tried to read through and i just had one new thought to add to the table.

i recently came across a post by tom barr suggesting the relationship between algae growth and water changes. water changes supply CO2 rich water. As we know from the many, many threads on this forum, algae usually comes from lack of CO2 or too much light (maybe this is just my opinion here but this is what I've gathered from posts by Byron and several of Tom B's posts elsewhere). 

i hadn't thought of water changes supplying co2 before.

Well, i threw my back out last week and couldn't do my regular weekly wc on wednesday. this is after i had seemingly struck the perfect balance between frequency/quantity of water changes, frequency/quantity of ferts, and frequency/quantity of excel. well, three days after missing the water change, lo and behold there was a brand new type of algae in my ten gallon (which has too much light but algae has been in check nonetheless)...green fuzz algae!

i immediately drew the conclusion that because the plants were missing that fresh co2 rich water from the missed water change, that algae the opportunist came along and used the nutrients and light.

does that make sense? it does in my brain but i'm having a hard time typing because my hands are freezing cold.

: )


----------



## JasonI (Feb 17, 2010)

Okay Angel079 I have on my tanks a Coral Life Power Center which I have been using for a while with set timer to turn on lights at a given time and to turn off the air driven filter at that same time the lights go on. These timer's are set to turn certain things on while turning certain things off and also have other outlets to keep other items on constantly. I purchased mine on Drs.Foster&Smith.com I have the single digital it's in the area of $25.59 now or you can check your local fish stores to see if they have it's a great item to have and will save your McGiver ideas for something else. So with that said plus I change water in this tank every two or three weeks. I think that this experiment will go alright for you so no need to worry.


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

JasonI said:


> Okay Angel079 I have on my tanks a Coral Life Power Center which I have been using for a while with set timer to turn on lights at a given time and to turn off the air driven filter at that same time the lights go on.


For real :shock: I have been too old fashioned in the tank world to notice these things apperently came ont he market at some point, how cool, thanks for the info!!!



JasonI said:


> So with that said plus I change water in this tank every two or three weeks. I think that this experiment will go alright for you so no need to worry.


So what size tank do you have; stock; plants???


----------



## JasonI (Feb 17, 2010)

Angel079 said:


> For real :shock: I have been too old fashioned in the tank world to notice these things apperently came ont he market at some point, how cool, thanks for the info!!!
> 
> 
> So what size tank do you have; stock; plants???


 Yes I do stock plants. I have a 10, 20l, and a 90 gallon tank and there all planted tanks. I was mesmorized 1 day at a local fishstore that had a planted tank so I decided to invest in some plants and got hooked.


----------



## Mean Harri (Dec 14, 2009)

JasonI said:


> Okay Angel079 I have on my tanks a Coral Life Power Center which I have been using for a while with set timer to turn on lights at a given time and to turn off the air driven filter at that same time the lights go on. These timer's are set to turn certain things on while turning certain things off and also have other outlets to keep other items on constantly. I purchased mine on Drs.Foster&Smith.com I have the single digital it's in the area of $25.59 now or you can check your local fish stores to see if they have it's a great item to have and will save your McGiver ideas for something else. So with that said plus I change water in this tank every two or three weeks. I think that this experiment will go alright for you so no need to worry.


I like your approach. One thing that seems to resonate and always has, planted or not, is the more you can keep your hands off the better. let nature do its thing.

I saw one of the Coralife power center things with dual timers at my lfs. They wanted $80. Drs Foster and Smith the exact same thing was $35 or so. I forget exactly. My lfs is criminal i tell ya.


----------



## JasonI (Feb 17, 2010)

Yea, Mean Harri that's why it's important to go with the times and search via internet. As you can see some items are more costly to us if we go local. The advantage we have through the internet is we can also search for better prices and some stores even have free shipping which gives you more bang for your buck. I am into these sort of things for the knowledge and learn how. We can find out so much thanks to our computers that we were not even aware of without even stepping out of your place. Then we can explore this cruel world of ours and compare prices to what you learned at home through our amazing little personal computers.


----------



## PaperclipGirl (Feb 7, 2010)

while I do not have a planted tank (yet) - I am interested at least to see what reducing water changes does to the pH. So I'll be following this thread at least.


----------



## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

I think there are several factors that aren't being considered here:

1) Micronutrients - Water changes not only remove nitrates but also replace micronutrients vital to the health of your fish. If you never change the water, these nutrients are going to be removed from the water by natural processes and can't be replaced. I think this reason alone is enough to be doing water changes on tanks that don't have accumulating nitrate.

2) Other "invisible" things in the water, such as hormones. It's well established that growing fish fry give off hormones that inhibit the growth of other fry, which means that if you've got a ton of fry in a small tank growth is slowed overall due to this hormone buildup. I would be surprised if this were the only example of this type of chemical communication in our fish tanks.

3) The unquantified "fish like it." Even if you've got an incredibly lightly stocked, heavily planted tank with no visible nitrates and you just did a water change two days previous, doing another small water change has an observable effect on fish behavior. Fish swim into the new current, perhaps looking for food. Fish spawning behavior is often seen right after water changes. It could be something complex like hormone depletion or the addition of new micronutrients as I described above or it could be something as subtle as a slight temperature or pH difference or even just that slight moment of different currents in their home, but fish seem to appreciate water changes. So, even if there's no quantifiable reason to be doing them (though I obviously think there are reasons) it seems like something that would be beneficial anyway.

Just my two cents.


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

JasonI said:


> Yes I do stock plants. I have a 10, 20l, and a 90 gallon tank and there all planted tanks. I was mesmorized 1 day at a local fishstore that had a planted tank so I decided to invest in some plants and got hooked.


:lol: I hear ya I started with 1 tank back in the day then 2, 3, 4, till I had 7 or 8 set ups ....yea it does get addictive:lol: if you like Internet and good quality plants you may be interested int his site; the site ain't built very fancy or nothing but their plants sure rock and I like their prices too Aquarium Plants Pond Plants From Sweet Aquatics


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

@iamntbatman;335196]

Good points! 
But really HOW OFTEN will a w/c be necessary and then how much of its volume?
I pers wouldn't go as far as saying never do a w/c but what about scenario's like instead 1x week 40-50% only 1xmonth? Or 20% every 2 week....or ... or...or....


----------



## LisaC144 (Oct 22, 2009)

Great thread, Natalie. Thank you for starting this discussion. I am also curious about the different scenario's regarding how often and how much should be changed with a fully planted tank.. Looking forward to following this thread and learning from everyone.


----------



## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

Angel079 said:


> @iamntbatman;335196]
> 
> Good points!
> But really HOW OFTEN will a w/c be necessary and then how much of its volume?
> I pers wouldn't go as far as saying never do a w/c but what about scenario's like instead 1x week 40-50% only 1xmonth? Or 20% every 2 week....or ... or...or....


Impossible to tell, really. I think, even if there was no measurable reason to do a water change (i.e. nitrate levels aren't rising), I'd still want to do at least one a month. Since it's me and I'm paranoid, I'd probably do one once every two weeks. I don't have any tanks planted heavily enough to try this experiment though; I need to do weekly water changes to keep nitrate levels where I want them.


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Well let's keep the thread rolling, see who else would like to join the discussion and I will report back what's happening with my lil no-filter plant tank as well as the 55g's readings over time now 

@Iambatman I hear ya I'd prop also break down after ~2weeks and do a w/c. I'll keep a close eye on my readings meanwhile


----------



## LisaC144 (Oct 22, 2009)

Once my mini-cycle is complete (UGH!!) I'll monitor mine as well. With my non-planted tank, once a week was a MUST, sometimes twice a week. It was extremely hard to keep nitrates under 40ppm. It usually sat between 20ppm and 40ppm. 40ppm was certainly pushing it for me. My 5g fully planted tank sits at 5ppm, sometimes less. I'm hoping with how much I planted my 55g, I'll have the same results, if not 0ppm nitrate..


----------



## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

IMO/E-in the non planted tank or gravel based lightly planted tank with moderate stocking weekly water changes are needed of 25-75%, with a good gravel vacuum everywhere but around the plant roots or decoration for best water quality and best interest of the livestock. 
Being a responsible fish keeper IMO you need to look at what is best for the livestock overall health and well being and what is optimal for as normal growth and development that can be achieved in a closed system.
IMO to be a good fish keeper you must first be a keeper of water and understand the science behind it.
Freshwater fish need fresh water to thrive not just survive......

With that said.......

........ the game changes IMO/E in the natural planted dirt based tanks.......you can create a self sustaining mini ecosystem that needs little maintenance and still maintain optimal health, growth and development of the livestock

In keeping the walstad type natural planted tanks with a twist of my own I have found great differences in the two types of set-ups, the dirt based substrate and massive active plant growth can make a difference a big difference especially when it comes to water changes even in the closed system.
Water changes are intended to dilute/remove the ammonia, nitrite and keep nitrate at safe level as well as removing the DOC.
With the natural systems the plants do all of this, as natural filtration system once it has become stable and the plants are actively growing the plants remove/use ammonia before it ever has a chance to convert and often times you will not even have nitrate, the plants also use the DOC to a degree, it never leave the tank per se' it can be in/used by the plants so it is not harmful to livestock.

My 55g NPT has not had a water change in 11 months and it is stable, 0ppm on ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH runs 7.8 and this is down from 8.8 in the 17 months this tank has been running, it houses a breeding pair of Ancistrus sp and they currently have around 30 fry, 15 male guppies, 8 female Betta splendens, lots of RCS and pond, ramshorn, trumpet snail so it is lightly stocked, it did have a HOB running for the first 6 months and it is now off so no filter or water movement, lights are shop lights with 4 bulbs daylight 6500k 40w, 4 bulbs for 8h and 2 bulb for 12h (total 12h photo period), no CO2, no ferts, no excel. 
Substrate is sifted dirt from my yard 2 inches and play sand cap 1 inch. I don't have any algae problems to speak of, never have, I have 10 different species of plants most are stem type, and rosette type- crypt, sword, vals, sags, also have java fern and java moss on drift wood, floating plants are water lettuce, duckweed, I have to trim plants weekly and top off about 2-3 gallons of water due to it being open top for better light penetration....I am sure I am missing some information but the point being the set up can change water change needs IMO/E...when the plants act as the filter, fish as ferts a closed ecosystem can work with limited water changes.

I have 9 NPT set up and running some older than others at different stages and water change needs, but all have either organic potting soil or dirt with sand caps, some with filter some without, lights range from 1.5-2.5wpg, all of them are very heavy planted up to 90% plants, all have snails and shrimp but not all have fish, some are shrimp only.
The fish behavior in this type of set up is awesome too, I have seen behaviors I have not seen in the 30 years I have been in this hobby....just awesome......
Low tech, low cost, low maintenance (once established) and lots of fun.....


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Mean Harri said:


> I think the determining factor would be nitrates. Once they build up to nearing unhealthy levels the water has to be changed. Apart from that what is the benefit? Most water contains the mineral, etc... that our plants need. Those will be depleted. But, I think most people with planted tanks fertilize. Of course there are those that never had to.
> 
> Additionally, doing no wc and adding top off water would add small amounts co2. Larger water changes add a lot more co2 to the tank and create swings. This should be interesting to discuss.


This has been my argument on the marine side of this hobby for ages. Nitrates are removed by live rock and deep sand bed systems, so we generally run zero nitrate on a properly set up system. We then replace buffering salts with a buffer and calcium with a supplement. 

At this point the only real argument becomes trace elements, which most authors think are replenished with foods. This is, in fact, the #1 argument against adding iodine to a marine tank. The iodine is already introduced with food. I am just guessing, but I bet in freshwater live plant tanks this discussion applies. Aren't you already adding a balanced additive? 

I am a believer that fish do NOT appreciate water changes. I have never seen a fish that responds well to water changes. They generally freak out, run and hide, fade in color, breath heavy, and take an hour to begin behaving normal. What part of this is "appreciation"? Water changes are a stress factor that can be avoided in balanced systems. 

I honestly think the frequent water change recommendation one of the longest running myths in this hobby, *on live plant tanks and marine systems.* That being said, for freshwater tanks without live plants, water changes are a necessity keep nitrates low! Even then, I personally prefer very frequent smaller water changes. If you want to change 20% per week, then I say change 3% per day. It only takes a minute to do daily and it reduces the pH swings.

So, live plant folks, you have my vote for smaller less frequent water changes. Granted, I have no experience with live plants, so you get what you pay for reading this post. ;-)


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

@Oldfishlady
Priceless! That's the kinda people/ input I wanna read about :-D I wanna know all there's to know about your tanks, please!!!

From your exp then how do you think chances are with my lil 2.5g non filter -plants only tank with some snails will be?

What's your thoughts (on larger tanks) to keep the filter running but lessen w/c?
Example my 55g has 6 Cory Cats, 9 Albino Barbs and 1 Kissing Gourami and a Eheim 2213 except for a lil maybe 8" by 3" spot all is covered in plants by now, system was set up mid Nov last year.


----------



## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Gosh..I could go on and on about these awesome set-up...lol......I will be happy to share my experience and what an experience it has been...lol.....I love this hobby and I had to find a system that required very little care due to my recent health/disability issues so I could keep my aquariums running and the livestock alive all at the same time...lol......and I found it...however, these are still young set-ups (18mo) and I am still learning the planted tanks and still doing lots of research...but what an awesome 18 months it has been......

Part of the success in the natural planted tanks IMO/E is the Dirt, you need dirt for the ecosystem to go full circle to take care of itself. I used dirt from my pasture in some and organic potting soil in others and a mix of the two soil in yet another and top soil and kitty litter in one, plain ole play sand I got from wally world to cap the dirt and some gravel I had that I removed from the tanks to replace with dirt, cost $20
One of the potting soil I used had the vermictulite or perilite (spelling) the white stuff...anyway, I didn't remove it and it has not caused any problems other than looking ugly from floating, so if I had it to do over again I would have sifted it out or used a different potting soil or a top soil.
Another mistake I made in a set up, I used sand from my stock pond and the silts caused problems that took forever to fix.

Next come lights, you have to have enough light to make the plants grow, not fancy lights, but the right type and amount of light. I bought cheapo 48 inch shop lights from wally world and the bulbs, cost me about $60 to put lights over my two big tanks. 
The daylight bulbs 40w 6500k are great for the NPT as long as you replace them every 6 months, but at $5 each or $20 a tank, its affordable and I save them to use in my kitchen and barn so they are not wasted. 
Photo period is also important to keep the plants actively growing to out compete algae, I keep mine on 12 a day, I do a rotation of sorts by turning half the light off after 8 hours and so two bulbs are on for the full 12h, this is what has work for me the best and I do get natural sunlight but it really only hits my 25g tank.
I also removed all the hood on the tanks for better light penetration and on the smaller tanks 10, 20, 25g I use 2 light strips over them to get more wpg, I cut some yard stick to fit the inside lip of the tanks so the light strips sit safely and don't fall in the tanks and they are pretty strong too...my cats like to sleep on them...lol....

To be successful in the natural planted tank, you have to start off with lots of plants, you can't sparsely plant them, the active growth keep the water safe for the fish, so at least 75-90% of the tank has to have fast growing stem type plants and once the tank is stable they can be replaced with other rosette plants, but the stem plants roots are important to bring oxygen into the soil to prevent anaerobic soil, same with the live bearer trumpet snail, these guys help pull oxygen into the soil to keep it safe and from spoiling killing everything..it is a balance, you also need floating plants to help pull nutrients, ammonia etc....

You can set up this system and stock it all in the same day provided you have all the right ingredients, you still have to make some water changes frequently the first month or so until it settles and the soil becomes its submerged state.

I know I am forgetting some information....lol.....

On your 2.5g, that is a perfect tank to start your first NPT, give it a try and soon you will have your 55 planted....this is an awesome system....

When I first read about this system I thought "dirt" no way.....but when you think about it...what do plants grow best in....dirt......and they wont' be a dirty mess either, if done correctly....I can post some pic if you would like....I got lots of them....lol.....


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Hmm the soil part interested me the most...So which set up would you say worked the best???
The plant part alone I'm very familiar with  Had planted tanks for many many yrs now (just not with soil that's what setting us 2 apart right now) here's few my set ups you can click on each 1 and see more pic's http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/postBitTanks.php?userid=1029

I had tried organic top soil topped off with sand before and no filter but that didn't smell healthy at all after a few weeks. I hadn't "tested" the kitty litter yet but seen it recommended several times.

PICTURES yes pls pictures!!


----------



## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I can't really say which I like best or which is doing better, the plant growth is out of control in all of them to the point that I can't keep up and have run out of tanks....lol....so now anything that hold water around my house has plants in it waiting for spring so I can get them in my outside tanks and ponds....
But, I think the best one is the 75g with my "black gold" soil from my pasture with a little red clay mixed in for more iron.
The NPT should not have a bad smell, yes an earthy smell that to me is a clean fresh smell of good dirt, sometimes what will happen is anaerobic spot from a lack of oxygen from either a rock, driftwood or something that smothers the soil. Iin soil based tanks the decoration need to be placed first and then the soil to prevent this and if you don't have trumpet snail to borrow in the soil you have to poke the soil with chop stick or something to prevent the dead spots until the soil reaches its submersed state or water logged, also daily to every 2-3 day water changes for a while, the most I had to do was 6 weeks and then I went to monthly and 3 mo..etc.....
My first tank I set up with this method did the same thing and smelled like rotting..I don't know what...lol.....and soon learned my mistake after chatting with Diana Walstad on her forum AFC.

Here are some shots of some of my NPT with my own twist.....
75g right after a trim

















25g








10g before planting completed








55g








10g betta splendens spawning tank ans my #1 assistant 








20g day after set up


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

:lol: another addict AWESOME!!!
Yes rotten that's how it smelled, rotten something. I had no Driftwood or alike in that very set up as I wanted to test around first how to best go about this.

So you're saying yours was smelling this way at first too then you did a bunch w/c each day and then went to weekly, monthly and so on for w/c is that they key? 
I had prepped the organic soil first watering it draining the goop out and large debris pieces and water & dump etc and then added it to the tank topped off with sand.

What ratio do you use between soil, kitty litter and gravel (like 0.5" soil 0.25 kitty litter and 2" gravel )?

Do I see that correctly on the pictures that you have it set up with soil then sand then gravel?

I'm honestly just trying to figure the soil-no filter tanks out because I think specially for m small set ups like the shrimp farms what would be awesome and no more sponge filters in the way.


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

PS I am sorry I bomb you with questions like this I'm just VERY interested in these set ups


----------



## Mean Harri (Dec 14, 2009)

If I am not mistaken in an NPT tank if you smell rotten eggs it's sulfur. I don't believe it is supposed to happen that way. I do forget, however, why this is the case. Poor circulation through the substrate?


----------



## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

No, the one that smelled I tore down and started over and what I did wrong on it was no trumpet snail or poking of the soil in the beginning and the soil spoiled or became anaerobic, that yummy rotten egg smell..sulfur.....I also did not have enough stem plants, that active stem plant growth can help pull oxygen into the soil but you still need either the trumpets or manual poking....lol......

Addicted.....okay...I admit it.....I am an addict...natural planted tank addicted that is....lol......I love talking about what I have learned and still learning...understand I am house bound now from an 80+ hour 30 + year medical field work week....need human contact some way...lol.......

After the fist mistake I found out what I was doing wrong, water changes and yes, I did daily and every other day etc....water changes all the water so 90-95% water changes and did a lot of substrate pokin with chop sticks until I got a good colony of trumpet snails and now I have thousands and I mean thousands of these critters....lol....the soil has to become water log to start its submersed life and some soils resist more than others...lol.....one tank I tried the let the soil air out for a day or so and then cover with water and drain over and over for days...but I really couldn't tell much difference as far as need for water changes in the beginning.
The gravel, yes, I use gravel around the edges and to help keep plants in place, some of those pic are a several months old and I have since remove a lot of the gravel and sand for that matter and replaced with new sand, at about 6 months of set up, I often times will suck out the sand and replace with fresh sand on a couple of the tanks but only because it was looking bad or I had already sucked a lot out in the beginning and it needed replaced and I try to keep at least 1 to 11/2 in of sand cap. I drain (python) my tank in the yard or else you can clog the pipes/septic system.... FYI....lol.....

Kitty litter, I did a 100% with sand cap..OMG what a mess when you pull a plant or re-plant...the cloud that never goes away and settles on the plants, I found that doing a 25% KL to 75% top soil was the best mix, however, I like my natural red clay soil 20-25% mix in my dirt better, I still have one 10g tank with the 25% KL mix, but if I have to do a tear down I will not use it again, not that happy with it to be honest, my red clay is better IMO. I am experimenting with making clay plugs to see how they work, being a naturalist I look for methods that are more natural and at my finger tips...cost is also a factor...why spend when you can make it yourself for free....lol.....

I set up a shrimp only 20g tank for RCS and a 10g for the yellow morph, one with potting soil and one with my dirt, set up and shrimp added the same day....now I have hundreds of reds and 60+ of the yellows and have moved them to all my tanks in just over a year time frame. You rarely if ever have any nitrates due to the stem and floating plants using the ammonia for food before it can be converted.


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Mine really didn't smell like sulfur thou, more rotten like forgotten garbage or something like that!?
I only have normal snails, no trumpets; so I guess I'd need to get the stick out  How often and how long do you poke around like the whole substrate each day for 6 months or so?

Well I got plenty red clay out here lol (I'm in TN) so that should be NO PROBLEM to mix that up. So if I followed you correctly: 25% clay-yard mix and 75% top soil mixed in and that then topped off with gravel, right? And then the only think you really add would be a heater and lights right? Even on the larger set ups you have no other filtration of any kind but the plants?

Yea I hear ya about the ammonia or NO's. Any cycled or seeded tank upon set up I never get a reading here on my tanks; which I 'blame' the balance between the amount of plants vs fish in my set ups; works for me.


----------



## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Pasfur said:


> This has been my argument on the marine side of this hobby for ages. Nitrates are removed by live rock and deep sand bed systems, so we generally run zero nitrate on a properly set up system. We then replace buffering salts with a buffer and calcium with a supplement.
> 
> At this point the only real argument becomes trace elements, which most authors think are replenished with foods. This is, in fact, the #1 argument against adding iodine to a marine tank. The iodine is already introduced with food. I am just guessing, but I bet in freshwater live plant tanks this discussion applies. Aren't you already adding a balanced additive?
> 
> ...


 
In a moderately stocked, and moderately planted aquarium,indeed plants would use enough of the waste created by fish and exccess foods that most invariably throw in the aquarium, to possibly negate the need for frequent water changes, seems to be the pricipal behind the Natural planted aquarium. But I have not all that much expierience with planted tanks other than easy to grow low light plants.
As for water changes being stressful for fish,, I would agree only if temp,pH, was different and or proper conditioner was not used for change water or ,,if water changes are infrequent, resulting in sudden stress to osmoregulatory function of fishes from sudden change in Total dissolved solids or conductivity.
Have seen too many fish fall ill due to deteriorating water conditions,High Total dissolved solids due to lack of dilution through water changes,and the usual elevated levels of ammonia,nitrites,and nitrates.
Have also seen firsthand and heard ,of many fishes recovering from effects of poor conditions from afore mentioned as well as finrot,fungus,lethargy with only a series of water changes performed over a relatively short period of time and without the use of medications.


----------



## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

Mark, I've personally witnessed all sorts of fish jump into "breeding mode" following a water change. This could be as simple as slight temperature differences or even just slightly different water movement mimicking rainfall, but whatever the case may be, even if fish are stressed immediately by water changes (and not all of them are, some love the process to the point of swimming into the current of new water being poured in) they definitely seem to benefit as soon as they recover from the immediate stress.

So, the beneficial, visible effects on fish behavior brought about by water changes, plus the "unmeasurable" things I mentioned earlier (I'm thinking especially of hormone levels in the water and that sort of thing) make doing water changes, even if done less often than would be required if we had escalating nitrate to worry about (i.e. in a non-planted tank), seem like something that could benefit the tank.


----------



## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Angel079 said:


> Mine really didn't smell like sulfur thou, more rotten like forgotten garbage or something like that!?
> I only have normal snails, no trumpets; so I guess I'd need to get the stick out  How often and how long do you poke around like the whole substrate each day for 6 months or so?
> 
> Well I got plenty red clay out here lol (I'm in TN) so that should be NO PROBLEM to mix that up. So if I followed you correctly: 25% clay-yard mix and 75% top soil mixed in and that then topped off with gravel, right? And then the only think you really add would be a heater and lights right? Even on the larger set ups you have no other filtration of any kind but the plants?
> ...


I poke the soil for maybe a month more or less, once I have good active growth on the stems. I top or cap the soil with sand, I do use gravel around the edges and around some plants that needed weight to hold in place and remove later, and on the soil mix 25/75 is how I did mine I sifted all together outside in a wheelbarrel or my hubby did...lol.... 
I do have HOB on my 75g for water movement the only filter media I use is poly fill that I get at the craft dept, I don't have one on my 55g for quite some time, it broke and I just didn't fix it and the tank is fine and I don't plan on hooking one back up unless I see problems or a need. 
I do however like water movement in the larger tanks, I like how they make the plants sway and I think the larger tanks need the water movement in the beginning but once established and all is well..... what filters I use are not for filtration per se' they are for water movement, the plants are the filter....as far as heaters, I don't use them in the summer, only winter or when I am spawning betta or raising fry, I like a more controlled stable temp.

I did some experiments last spring and summer, one was on the stunting hormone issue and its effects on growth and development on Betta splendens fry, water changes and the NPT, understand this is a hobbyist experiment and not scienitific and I didn't have a control group, just 2 10g NPT, betta fry and on one I did daily water changes and the other I did none. I did get better G/D on the fry that got the daily water changes but it was not that big of a difference and once I moved them together in a grow out at 6 weeks they all looked the same by 12 weeks. I plan to do another experiment this spring to gauge the amount of natural foods the NPT will provide for fry.


----------



## JasonI (Feb 17, 2010)

O.F.S this information of clay and potting soil I've read this before. I had always wondered if someone had incorparated it into there tanks. In my view of your setups this is definetely something I would like to experiment with. I just have one question about the clay if not found locally do you know of a brand that you may recommend. I was also looking into trying maybe some maneur type soil which I also think that plants will thrive off of. Just wanted to ask if maybe you had tried this route before. I know you may have heard of a site called the krib before just checked the site it seems to have changed. Anyway the site had a lot of information as well as setting up your tank in layers as you are doing. Just thought I might mention this and as far as potting soil what type of soil would be good as one wouldn't want to introduce something with dangerous pesticides into an aquarium.


----------



## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I love the krib, haven't been on it in a while but it has lots of great information. As far a clay I really have no idea about the store bought type, but I have read that some of the clay intended for potting has additives that may not be aquariums safe.
Potting soil, look for organic type that has no added ferts or anything, I get mine from a green house that make there own.
And so true about the self collected dirt from your yard or anyplace for that matter, many can have pesticides or chemical that would not be good for the aquarium. I live way out in the woods on virgin land and being a naturalist we don't use anything not natural so I feel pretty safe in using my dirt as well as the collected oak leaves and mosquito larva I use in my tanks, as well as the fresh garlic ans fresh spinach leave I use in my homemade fish food that I get out of my yard/garden.
Be careful using manure based soil though, it can cause algae problems as it breaks down, same with big chunks of anything in the soil, I sift my soil three times and remove anything big.
You can't go wrong with planted tanks IMO/E no matter what direction you go, I like to little to no tech because of the low care and low cost and I want it to be fun and not a lot of work.
Mine are a mix of Walstad, Barr, Dan Q and my own twist...lots of fun.......so important.....


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Jason maybe the kitty litter-organic topsoil route would work better for you??? 
When I had set up the first one this way and actually tried shopping around the gardening centers you'd be amazed how difficult it can be to find plain natural stuff that's not having a ton of man made stuff added :shock: so really take your time when shopping.
Do you have plants already in your set ups??? Maybe for the beginning a normal planted tank with fine gravel would a option for ya too (gotta have plants IMO lol)


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

@Oldfishlady :lol: and another one collecting leaves from the yard for the tanks - Awesome!!! I actually always only used them on my shrimp farms but started adding them recently for the Tetra's too
Spinach and alike I'm familiar with feeding all tanks...Garlic is news to me tell me more about it; how do you prep it to feed it and how often do yours get it?


----------



## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

I never knew garlic served any purpose other than being extremely tasty to fish...

(When I go fishing, I rub my lures with a garlic clove. )

Also, I'm setting up an unfiltered 5G, will be heavily planted with snails and inverts. I'll keep you updated.


----------



## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I have been feeding my fish fresh crushed garlic daily for a long time, at one point I collected wild fish and I was having problems with internal/external parasites and then I happened on an article by a Discus guy by the name of Jack Wattley and an experiment he did with wild caught Discus and feeding fresh garlic and I have been feeding it ever since. I made my own fish food with fresh crushed garlic, fresh spinach, frozen shrimp all smashed up into a paste and I feed this to all my fish daily.


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

So just take some garlic through the press and feed the lil 'pebbles'? Just fresh not dried up or nothing?


----------



## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Fresh is best, I use a garlic press, blanch some spinach, chop some shrimp, I use the side of a knife and smash it all together and make a green paste and feed, I put it in a zip-lock and smash flat and freeze it, break off what I need each day. Most fish will go nuts over it and if they don't.....just saute it for yourself...lol.....I always use human grade products...but I have never eaten it myself.....but you could.....

You can also just use the fresh garlic or the juice on your regular fish food, plus the juice is great to use on the fish food medication to help get them to eat it and to soften it up or make a paste out of it for fish that don't want to take their meds......garlic is a really good appetite stimulator too

Garlic being a food product and not a medication you can't overdose on it.....


----------



## AaronCombs (Feb 26, 2010)

I've ran my 100g on a test run for about 6 months, with only adding water that evaporated. 
No live plants, about 30 comet goldfish, and some algae eaters (can't remember what)...
Fish didn't seem to have any issues, however I wish I did it longer for better results.

I've recently reset this model up but in a 10g with 7 or 8 comet goldfish, one 1/2 inch brown ramshorn black foot snail. I'll only add water as needed. I have setup a modified pump system to pull water from one side of the tank, with the filtered water coming out at the other end. Causing a current effect, with the filtration bonus. 

I'll keep you all posted on how mine turns out, if any fish die, etc


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Neat update there Aaron! Totally off subject but I think you should add some live plants to your set ups, helps with the filtration even better


----------



## stephanieleah (Oct 31, 2009)

fishlady...i am dying to see pictures of your tanks...and when you set up the profiles, can i make a humble request that you include panoramics and close-ups of fish and plants, please : ) really looking forward to the pics:-D


----------



## AaronCombs (Feb 26, 2010)

Angel079 said:


> Neat update there Aaron! Totally off subject but I think you should add some live plants to your set ups, helps with the filtration even better


Hmm, i think i will, but I'll wait on adding them until my current plants need to be trimmed, to lazy to pump money into the test system.


----------



## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

AaronCombs said:


> I've ran my 100g on a test run for about 6 months, with only adding water that evaporated.
> No live plants, about 30 comet goldfish, and some algae eaters (can't remember what)...
> Fish didn't seem to have any issues, however I wish I did it longer for better results.
> 
> ...


With no live plants and no water changes, how are you removing nitrates from the system? What are your current nitrate readings?


----------



## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Old Fish Lady, I kneel down at your alter of tanks.... amazing.

OK, my inexperienced two cents as I have greatly enjoyed this thread:

_I am a believer that fish do NOT appreciate water changes. I have never seen a fish that responds well to water changes. They generally freak out, run and hide, fade in color, breath heavy, and take an hour to begin behaving normal. What part of this is "appreciation"?_

I have a 50g planted tank. The plants are heavy in the back and offer a reasonably dense area to hide. When I do a pwc, the fish do not go and hide. They swim in the front, open area of the tank and enjoy (at least I think they enjoy) being in the stream of new water coming in. I pour it in from a pitcher of water. My fish really seem to enjoy the change.

I typically do 10 gallon changes on the tank about once a week or so. I am not always exact due to time restraints.

One thing I greatly enjoy, is sitting in front of the tank and watching my fish swim. I can honestly say, I do not believe they are stressed when I change the water. Some (molly) nip at me hand when I put it in, and they swim around the suction tube and for the most part, enjoy the stream, when it comes in. 

That doesn't mean, however, that there aren't fish that don't enjoy it. I am sure there are. I don't see it in my tank. I would strongly suggest they do, in fact, enjoy the change.


----------



## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

There is a great article in the April 2010 TFH magazine on plant filtration and a few months back TFH had a couple of article on water changes that were really good too. that compared percents, time lines etc.....


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

@Big Fish;338278
That's very interesting to read....50g tank 10g w/c once a week. So how heavily or not is the tank stocked; what fish do you have in there?
I recently came to find that it greatly dep on who the w/c are done. First when I set up my Tetra tank I did the normal "bucket dump" after filling them up, didn't appear to impressive with the Tetra's. Then I used a Phyton they def didn't appreciate that. Then I prepped the water several hrs prior to doing the w/c and added conditioner and then let it sit with a air stone in each bucket and 'gas it out' a few hrs and then heated it back up and added it THAT was the party kicker for my Tetra's so now that's how I'm doing the w/c on their tank they seem SO MUCH better when I do it this way.


----------



## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

When I had my Oscars they enjoyed the water changes and I made at least 3 a week of 90% or better due to their feeding and waste habits...lol.....I used two pythons, one hooked up to my sink to add water and one that I ran out my front door into my garden to drain. I would siphon and they would play with my hands and the tubes and I drained their tank to the point that they would be laying on their side when I turned on the fresh water (I have well water) and as it filled and they became upright they would play in the fresh water as it came in, but Oscars are kinda like puppies anyways.... they really did seem to enjoy the water changes and they never became sick from being stressed, they grew really fast and out grew my 75g within 8 months so they got rehomed to a 125g, and I got to plant their tank after they left......lol....

I raise Betta splendens and sometimes I will have 50-80 cupped males that I make daily 100% water changes on, at first they do seem a bit upset but after a week or so they seem to get used to the water changes and I never have issues related to stress.


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

I pers really think comparing all past & new set ups of mine and the fish that I housed: It greatly depends on what fish your dealing with. The Barbs had a BLAST with the python vs the Tetra's not so much...


----------



## Mean Harri (Dec 14, 2009)

I'm not sure about the wc thing. My tank has been up and running with plants since Feb. 12th. Just yesterday I did a water change and the water looks better. It looks clearer. I'm on the fence.


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Well Eric you really gotta consider 1 major factor IMO there: Established vs. new set up  
Also Fishlady said on her soil-non filter tanks she's done daily water changes at first then fewer & fewer and now every half year or something like that.


----------



## Mean Harri (Dec 14, 2009)

Oldfishlady said:


> Fresh is best, I use a garlic press, blanch some spinach, chop some shrimp, I use the side of a knife and smash it all together and make a green paste and feed, I put it in a zip-lock and smash flat and freeze it, break off what I need each day. Most fish will go nuts over it and if they don't.....just saute it for yourself...lol.....I always use human grade products...but I have never eaten it myself.....but you could.....
> 
> You can also just use the fresh garlic or the juice on your regular fish food, plus the juice is great to use on the fish food medication to help get them to eat it and to soften it up or make a paste out of it for fish that don't want to take their meds......garlic is a really good appetite stimulator too
> 
> Garlic being a food product and not a medication you can't overdose on it.....


Do you use ordinary shrimp the we people buy and eat? Like pre-cooked frozen shrimp? I suppose fresh and cooked my us would work.
DO you have a general measurement of the garlic/spinach/shrimp? Handful of spinach? I want to make this today if possible. Thanks oldfishlady.


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Mean Harri said:


> Do you use ordinary shrimp the we people buy and eat? Like pre-cooked frozen shrimp? I suppose fresh and cooked my us would work.
> DO you have a general measurement of the garlic/spinach/shrimp? Handful of spinach? I want to make this today if possible. Thanks oldfishlady.


:lol: You are turning 110% around Eric; first making fun of me naming plants left & right; now you start doing the same. First get some flake food now you're playing chef ... I love watching this kinda turn around from non-fish keeper to this :thumbsup:


----------



## Mean Harri (Dec 14, 2009)

hehe. i am going to make it tonight. fresh garlic and shrimps on the way. spinach is in the fridge ready to go. i might eat some myself. sounds good. throw it over linguine and baddabing baddaboom


----------



## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Mean Harri said:


> hehe. i am going to make it tonight. fresh garlic and shrimps on the way. spinach is in the fridge ready to go. i might eat some myself. sounds good. throw it over linguine and baddabing baddaboom



There ya go...it would make a great sauce.....laffs....


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Update after 'testing' to not do a weekly water exchange.

My last w/c on the 55g was March 6th, then non last weekend and I plan on a small one today.

Skipping this one week w/c as was to be expected with the heavy plant stock I have no NO's rising at a detectable level (using API kit here) and no Ammonia. pH and KH remain constant nothing changing there neither. Cory's don't seem to care at all neither still breeding as they always do.

While I personally provably wouldn't go as far as no w/c in months to come I do however thing I will shift my schedule to w/c ever 2nd weekend now as I can see it has no negative effects on nothing and no one why not lessen the work :-D

I know some of you were quite interested in it and I volunteered my 55g as usual so here's the update for you all :-D


----------



## LisaC144 (Oct 22, 2009)

Wait, I'm a bit confused. Last water change was on March 6th. It's only March 14. That's 8 days between the last water change....


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

LisaC144 said:


> Wait, I'm a bit confused. Last water change was on March 6th. It's only March 14. That's 8 days between the last water change....


:lol: sharp eyes so early in the AM I thought I had it right when I checked the calendar. I did NOT do a w/c last weekend but the weekend prior so that would be 27-28 Feb wouldn't it then? Of cause now I can't change the other post any more - Oh well let's hope people read this one :lol:

*W/c has NOT been done in 2 weeks!*


----------



## LisaC144 (Oct 22, 2009)

Ahh ha, now that makes sense ;-) Glad to hear youe parameters all check out and fish are happy. Once my tank gets heavy growth I'm going to try the same thing. A little afraid to try it just yet. How much of a pwc do you plan on doing today?


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

*Looking at my buckets how many gallon they hold* maybe around 10'ish I think if I ever get OFF here and actually get working on my tanks (gotta do plant maintenance again go figure)


----------



## LisaC144 (Oct 22, 2009)

So about 20%. Is that more or less than you normally do on your tanks?


----------



## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I think that was the hardest part for me....not doing water changes.....after years and years of weekly water changes burned in my brain....that habit was really hard to break......lol........and it took me a while to get over it and still feel that my tanks and livestock were safe.......I had to have faith in the plants and that they are doing the job that I used to do....giving that up.......very hard........
But now......I must say I am impressed with the work the plants do, however, I sure wish they would clean up the mulm that sits on the top a little better....lol.....still getting used to that and the temptation to suck it out....laffs..........


----------



## LisaC144 (Oct 22, 2009)

Actually I'll have to take my last comment back. When I get married next month I'll be on vacation for 10 days. I'll do a pwc the day before I leave, but the next one won't be until 12 days later (do another one the day after I get back). I hope I have enough growth in the next month for my fish to be okay without a pwc for 12 days. My goodness I just thought about this....:|


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

@Lisa before I used to do about 40% each weekend. Now I just done about 15% every 2nd weekend.
Hey that's good news from you & Pete right there. Where to will the party take you? If you feed them well and then do a good w/c before you leave they'll do just fine w/out you!!!

@Oldfishlady ohhh common some nice good mulm built up - Shrimp would go crazy for THAT :-D


----------



## LisaC144 (Oct 22, 2009)

We're getting married in Cancun, Mexico at the Sun Palace Resorts. We're taking a 10 day vacation/honeymoon. A few family members are coming too, but only for 5 or 7 days which will give us time to ourselves too. I do have someone that can come and feed the fish, but they are coming to Cancun for 4 days so in that time the fish won't be fed. I plan on just leaving her a bit more food for the last day she comes over before leaving for Cancun as well. Then a bit more for when she gets back.


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Alright - Party central - Well you have my email and I am awaiting pictures then please 

Not feeding for these 4 days will be no issue at all!!! 99.9999% of the time fish in aquatic set ups die due to overfeeding not due to starvation


----------



## LisaC144 (Oct 22, 2009)

There will be PLENTY of pictures. We're actually hiring a photographer to take pictures during the ceremony and for a photo session of us and family. Oh, I'm not worried about the feeding part. I know they'll be fine for several days without food. I was worried about the water change thing and going 12 days without one. I'm hoping the plants will grow some more in the next 4 weeks so I won't have a problem with elevated parameters.


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

I highly highly doubt you will see any issue there! Apart from coming home after 2 weeks and seeing that the plants have exploded in size lol


----------



## LisaC144 (Oct 22, 2009)

I'm happy to hear I shouldn't have any problems. I'm sure Pete wouldn't be happy to hear, "I can't marry you because I'm worried about my fish" HAHA! :rofl:


I know, right now I see them everyday so don't notice a huge difference. I try to use certain things in my tank to get a grasp of changes. Like the Pennywort I can tell grew some because it's nearly as tall as the rock cave now. The narrow leaf chainsword each have 1 or 2 runners with new sprouts  I can't even imagine what changes I'll see after not looking at it for 12 days!!


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

I can tell you I had my 55g Rainbow tank unattended for about 10days for a bus. trip which was well planted at the point kinda like my 55g right now. When I returned that thing had EXPLODED and the pennywort and random other plants where actually out of the water and beginning to lift up my lil hood there. That was a VERY noticeable difference. Then I once left all tanks behind with a 'fish sitter' for almost 4 weeks (good fish keeping friend of mine) who's come to feed every once in a while...needless to say I came home to JUNGLES she had called me in FL a lil after 2 weeks and said "Uhm well I donno but uhm there's so much PLANTS I donno if your fish are still in there" lol that was a BIG difference not seeing my tanks for so long and that was a LONG 4 days after my return home to get all these tanks trimmed down and back in check lol


----------



## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

LisaC144 said:


> There will be PLENTY of pictures. We're actually hiring a photographer to take pictures during the ceremony and for a photo session of us and family. Oh, I'm not worried about the feeding part. I know they'll be fine for several days without food. I was worried about the water change thing and going 12 days without one. I'm hoping the plants will grow some more in the next 4 weeks so I won't have a problem with elevated parameters.


Hey, do you need a flower girl at your wedding?? I'm offering my services...Cancun, man oh man, I'm sooo envious!!


----------



## rsn48 (Nov 26, 2009)

Thought I would throw out this article which is linked in Part two of this post by Carl Stohmeyer:

" It is also worth noting that most of these “Reasons for Water Changes” are inter related, so addressing one reason often has an affect on another and on the negative side of the equation ignoring one reason of has a domino affect on others
(1)* Nitrate control- A nitrate level of 15-20 ppm or less is best saltwater fish (1 ppm or less for Reef), 40-50 ppm or less for FW (you want a Nitrate level of at least 15 ppm for planted FW aquariums, as plants need some bio available nitrates in the water column). Use your nitrate level as a gauge (in an established aquarium) when to change your water. If your goal is to keep nitrates below 40 ppm, change water whenever nitrates reach this level.
I often have told my customers that Nitrate removal was an important reason (not the only) for water changes, and utilizing vacuuming as a method of removing organic mulm is an effective way of maintaining low nitrates (especially in the absence of nitrogen reducing anaerobic filter bed).
In freshwater aquariums (especially in the absence of a large amount of thriving plants), water changes using a gravel vacuum to remove ALL the organic mulm before it goes through the full nitrifying part of the nitrogen cycle is of the only sure way of controlling nitrates in a freshwater aquarium. The importance is amplified for tanks where Under Gravel Filters are employed (with these filters it is best to occasionally remove the lift tubes and siphon directly under the plate).
(2)*GH and Electrolytes ( positive mineral ions); this is related to the above point. Water changes will often replenish necessary electrolytes (when tap or well water are used). This is why RO water should ALWAYS be re-mineralized.
This is an important reason that is often missed in determining whether or not adequate methods, frequency, etc. of water changes are being utilized. If your aquarium GH (minerals/electrolytes) are falling, you are likely in need of a water change or should be employing products such as Wonder Shells and possible aragonite (although aragonite often will not respond rapidly enough to lower mineral levels as compared to Wonder shells, buffers or simple water changes).
Without adequate mineralization, your fish will suffer from poor osmoregulation and as well this will lower your Redox balance.
Importance of Calcium, magnesium and other electrolytes on aquariums(3)*Ph and KH control- Maintaining a proper ph (ph levels have a tendency to drop from biological activity), KH is the buffering ability of the water and that too can decrease. KH is VERY important and a major problem I have seen over the years in my maintenance business when calling on customers who seemed to always have problems with their aquariums and claimed cleaning their aquarium caused their problems, which of course is not true. Maintaining a proper KH between cleanings is important. SeaChem Buffers and to a lesser degrees aragonite or Wonder Shells may aid in this as well.

It should be noted that is large volumes of water changes are necessary for whatever reason, it is important to make sure that the new water added does not result in “roller coaster” pH reading, for which the osmotic stress on the fish is usually much harder than pH reading that is less desirable, but is usually tolerated fish more than many aquarists realize. This consideration is especially important with fish such as Discus where a water change may cause a sudden spike in pH (unless re-mineralized RO water is used that is also pre-adjusted to pH).

(4)*Lowering of DOC & Removal of Organic Mulm (Sludge); DOC stands for Dissolved Organic Compounds (some refer to the ‘C’ in this abbreviation as Carbon which would relate to carbon based molecules). This is inter-related to some of the other reasons such Redox, Bio Load, Nitrates, even KH & pH (has often high DOC will have an end result of lowering pH). This also includes removal of mulm/sludge from under under-gravel filter plates (placing a siphon tube directly under a plate often has worked well for me) as well as removal of this mulm/sludge from canister and sometimes even wet/dry filters.
This is one of the more important reasons from my years of experience as well as some controlled tests since DOC in the water column and Organic Mulm/Sludge under the gravel, decorations, rocks, etc. can have a profound effect on so many aspects of aquarium health such as the previously noted Nitrates, Redox, and even opportunistic diseases, in particular Saprolegnia/Fungus and Aeromonas.

This is achieved two ways in cleanings:
[1] Simply removing water on a regular basis removes DOC from the water column.
[2] The second aspect is surprisingly misunderstood, even by experienced aquarists and that is by thorough vacuuming of organic mulm, you remove a major cause/source of DOC. This is amplified more by the use of re-circulating micron filter cleaning methods such as the Aquarium Cleaning Machine where as you continue to vacuum the mulm and detritus even after you are finished removing water, after which you throw out the debris/mulm caught in the micron filter which would other wise add to the DOCs in the future. A Vortex Diatom Filter can perform this as well, although the gravel must be constantly stirred to make this device fully effective, which not only is this not usually possible, but this is also much more stressful to fish (I have used Diatom filters for years and they are still excellent devices, however when the Aquarium Cleaning Machine became available, it blew the Diatom filters out of the water).
Another device, the electric (battery powered) “Bag” vacuums do NOT compare to the Cleaning Machine or Diatom Filters. These use a bag that does not even trap 25% of the DOC causing mulm that a true micron filter can (such as the two noted above), my tests measuring Nitrates, KH, & Redox show this.
An exception to this would be the Eheim Sludge Remover Battery Vacuum, as it uses a much better reusable micron filter than the older style “Bag” battery Vacuums. Although the Eheim Battery Vacuum is not nearly as efficient as the Aquarium Cleaning Machine, it provides a reasonable alternative for small aquarium owner or those on a tight budget where the Aquarium Cleaning Machine is simply not practical. I should be noted that none of these devices still take the place of a water change in my experience/tests, however at least the Aquarium Cleaning Machine allows for discharge of water prior to switching to re-circulate.


----------



## rsn48 (Nov 26, 2009)

Part two of Carl's article, link at bottom:

(5)*Removal of harmful elements; There are many toxins that can be introduced, airborne or in other ways enter the aquarium that are not easily measured.
Carbon may help with this as well, but should not be over used.

(6)*Control of Bio Load; Although cleanings are not the long term answer to an over crowded, over fed, and under filtered aquarium, cleanings are certainly necessary to lower your bio load by removal of decaying organics in your gravel, under décor, and often in under maintained filters as well.
A common symptom of a high organic load is rapidly dropping pH and KH as well as sighting of Detritus Worms during cleanings or when oxygen levels drop (these worms will rise to the surface when oxygen levels are low seeking oxygen). These Worms are often misidentified as Planaria by many here on the internet, however they are not Planaria (which can be present too), Planaria are not a worm! 
(7)*Redox Potential ; this is an often unknown parameter to many aquarists but is actually quite important, especially with newer research I have uncovered. That said most freshwater aquarists usually do not need to worry about this if water changes and other aspects of good aquatic husbandry are observed (for marine aquariums this is even more important and is often not as easily maintained). However, I would recommend learning more about this parameter if you are a serious aquarist, and the purchase of a Redox meter if you can afford one (they sell for over $200) may be a useful tool as well.
Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle, cycling methods(8)* Removal of waste before it can go thru the Nitrogen Cycle. This is related to other aspects/reason for water changes, although here I specifically mean the removal nitrogenous waste molecules in the water column that begin with ammonia, to nitrites and then end up as nitrates.
Water changes can lower these nitrogenous molecules (ammonia, etc.) prior to the cycling process thus resulting on lower nitrates as noted in section #1.
(9)* Control of algae growth; this aspect is often missed, yet is very basic. Water changes (assuming replacement with water that has natural balanced nutrients) will generally return the proper balances of Macro nutrients (PO4, NO3, K) to a freshwater tank for plants to out compete algae. 
(10)* Rinsing of bio-sponges, media, etc. in used aquarium or de-chlorinated tap water (generally not straight tap water). This includes sponge filters, bio balls, and ceramic media in canister filters (canister filters need to be cleaned more often than many aquarists think due to nitrate producing and KH reducing mulm buildup).
Occasionally I do not use de-chlorinated tap water or used aquarium water to rinse all parts of a canister filter such as mechanical filtration poly pads, or even some sponges, the reason is if there is more than adequate amounts on ammonia/nitrite reducing nitrifying bacteria and nitrates are quite high (I always leave at least the ceramic, volcanic rock, SeaChem Matrix or other bio media rinsed in only de-chlorinated water so as to preserve nitrifying or de-nitrifying bacteria behind). As well either at the time of water change or a midway point (or similar) between water changes, chemical filter products such as Carbon or SeaChem Purigen should be changed.
Rinsing of filter media is not quite a “reason for water change” (more a reason for maintenance/cleaning), but is certainly a part of regular tank maintenance that should not be ignored.
(11)* Disease eradication; changing water for disease eradication may not solve the problem, but may be a step towards the problem when done in conjunction with medications/treatments (even bleachings and subsequent aquarium re-starts).
* All these reasons are based on 30+ years of professional aquarium maintenance with some of the largest accounts in Los Angeles, CA
The above section is the most objective aspect of this article, everything that follows is more subjective and utilizing what ever cleaning method, frequency, or combinations there of are all determined by achieving that above criteria which admittedly is not all as important as each other, however I would consider points 1-8 essential based on both experience and scientifically controlled tests/studies.

Summary of "Reasons for Water Changes;"
My point is that a 25% water change every month may be all that is required by one aquarist but not adequate for another aquarist!
Or one aquarist may do fine with the German or flow through method while another may fail and the use of products such as the Aquarium Cleaning Machine may be necessary for DOC control.
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_cleaning.html


----------



## LisaC144 (Oct 22, 2009)

Kymmie, you're morethan welcome! Everyone is invited! April 17-27, 2010...hurry! Good book it!

Natalie, I hope I see change like that! So much growth my hoos will be about to pop off! hahaha! Probably not in 12 days, but I'm expecting to notice a big difference


----------



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

*Checking flights as we speak* lol

Just wait & see what'll happen.


----------

