# African Dwarf frogs in unheated tank??? or white clouds....



## SST (Nov 17, 2007)

I have a golden apple snail in a 5 gal. filtered but unheated tank all by his/her lonesome. I'd like to add a few african dwarf frogs but I'm not sure how they would do in an unheated tank. The temp. runs 68-72. 

If the frogs aren't a good fit, I was thinking of white clouds. How many would work in this tank? 

The original plan was to put the snail and the frogs in the 5 gal. heated betta tank, but Mr. Betta turned out to be quite the bully and now we've two tanks in our family. Found a 5 gal. at goodwill for $4. Can't beat that!


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## tophat665 (Sep 30, 2006)

Frogs will not work. They're tropical.

White clouds would work, but they won't be really happy. 

If you were to make sure that the water were hard and alkaline, the snail would enjoy it, and some least killifish (which are actually livebearers - Heterandia formosa) would be just about ideal.


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## SST (Nov 17, 2007)

Okey dokey!

Thanks.


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## tophat665 (Sep 30, 2006)

Another good one for the unheated small tank are medaka ricefish.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Where to get the medaka ricefish? Those could be hard to find in many places. That's not a fish available anywhere around here. 
Tophat, can I ask why you discouraged the white clouds? 3 white clouds could work fine in a 5 gallon unheated tank with the snail, and would be low maintenance and pretty at the same time.

The killies are a good choice, though! You can get a lot of color and activity level with the killies, just be sure it's a species that stays small enough for a 5 gallon tank... because some, such as the golden killie and blue gularis will get too large for 5 gallons.


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## Falina (Feb 25, 2007)

bettababy said:


> Where to get the medaka ricefish? Those could be hard to find in many places. That's not a fish available anywhere around here.
> Tophat, can I ask why you discouraged the white clouds? 3 white clouds could work fine in a 5 gallon unheated tank with the snail, and would be low maintenance and pretty at the same time.
> 
> The killies are a good choice, though! You can get a lot of color and activity level with the killies, just be sure it's a species that stays small enough for a 5 gallon tank... because some, such as the golden killie and blue gularis will get too large for 5 gallons.


Probably because of the groups of 6 or more rule. 

I remember reading in a post by you a few weeks back about your sucess at keeping different fish in small grops or on ther own, when they are usually mant to be kept in groups. I don't doubt you at all, and I believe the fish were happy and healthy, but it is a sort of general rule that certain fish like to be in groups and many people stick with it, myself included. Just a matter of opinin I reckon.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Yes, it is a matter of opinion, but not all of these species *have* to be in a group.


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## tophat665 (Sep 30, 2006)

Actually, it's less about grouping and more about activity level vs swimming room. White clouds are, as I recall, stream and river fish and fairly powerful swimmers for their size. Can you keep 3 of them in a 5.5 with a mystery snail? Of course! I just think you would get better viewing and color out of something less active.

I mentioned medaka (which I wouldn't normally) because my LFS has them at the moment. I had not seen them available previously.

Now that I think a little more, a trio of CPDs (Galaxy Rasboras) would be even better, but they'd probably be even harder to lay hands on than medaka or least killies, and much more expensive.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

I have never seen the medaka's for sale anywhere around here, is why I had to ask. Yes, they would be a perfect fish for a small tank... but also... I can already hear a lot of customers complaining that they aren't "pretty" due to their sort of bland coloration. If color isn't an issue, male feeder guppys would be the absolute best inhabitant for such a small tank... not needing much of anything to thrive, and still a bit of color. 
As for the white clouds, even in larger tanks, I've always seen them sort of "hang out" in small groups, 3 - 5 in an average group, not the type of "pacing" or "overactive" habits that many stream fishes exhibit. I've always had great luck with them in small tanks in a group of 3, as have many of my customers.

The expense of the galaxy's would be a bit much for most people. Here they now sell for $10.99 each (down from the $13.99 they started out at), though they do seem to be rather abundant. Another problem with the galaxy's is that they jump a lot. I have already lost 6 of them when they decided to go tank hopping in my fish room. I started out with 7 (yes, I spent the money when they first showed up in the store here), and I found out where they went when I spotted the last one swimming in the tank down below, home to my 6 inch red tail shark. I have to assume he ate the others because I never found bodies anywhere. I rescued the last one, but recently lost it when it jumped out of the tank during the night. Like bettas, they seem to get through the smallest of places. Yes, my tanks were covered, and they were done so as tightly as possible. That was an awful expensive lesson learned. Those fish had a 55 gallon tank to themselves, only other tankmates were ram's horn snails and ghost shrimp, and the tank was planted so thickly, it was hard to find the fish. Just a note: The galaxy rasbora was found to actually belong to the family of danios, and has been renamed "celestial pearl danio". The scientific name has also changed from Microrasbora sp. to Celestichthys margaritatus. After having done a lot of research on what little is known about them, and having kept them for almost a year before the "accident", I would not suggest mixing them with any other danio species, and I also would not mix them with any real active fishes. Good tankmates for them would be black phantom tetras, lemon tetras, neons. While they're a beautiful fish, they're not so easy to keep.


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## SST (Nov 17, 2007)

male feeder guppies would be just fine...easy to care for and not expensive would be best for my house. This is kiddo's tank and right at his eye level so I'm just looking for some movement and something he can feed. And 68-72 degrees works for guppies?

How many is too many? How many is not enough?


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## Falina (Feb 25, 2007)

That's interesting about them habging about in groups of 3-5 Dawn. I didn't know that.

Guppies can be kept in any numbers really. I'd go for 3 for that size of tank.

That temperature range should be Ok for the guppies. I would try to keep it at the higher end of the scale, though I'm sure they would survive 68 no problem.


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## Lindsey88 (Nov 23, 2007)

Just wondering. Wouldn't an apple snail grow too large for a 5 gallon tank. They do grow to the size of an apple. I would think a mystery snail would be a better choice.


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## SST (Nov 17, 2007)

It is a mystery snail, pomacea bridgesii, also known as a golden apple snail. It won't get big. The cana's get big.


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## SST (Nov 17, 2007)

though apple snails come in different colors. mine just happens to be golden. I want a magenta one next. Too cool!


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## Lindsey88 (Nov 23, 2007)

oh ok sorry about that. I was just making sure. If you really want some Adfs you could get a small heater for the tank. They do well at 75-80 degrees and are very comical.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

tophat, I spend a lot of time just watching the fish to learn about them. At the store it isn't uncommon for me to go in, grab a book about something specific and then sit down on the floor and read the book and watch the tank for an hour or more at a time. At home, that is what I do for the first few months I have something "new". That's the one part of the hobby even most of the pros forget to do... you learn more from the fish themselves instead of the people who "think" they know it all. 

As for feeder guppys, I'd stick to all male, you don't want any breeding, and the females are very plain without any color and get much larger. 3 - 4 males would be fine in that size of a tank, as the males stay very very small. The other nice thing about feeder guppys is that they are very sturdy. Don't mistake these for fancy guppys, which need the heated tank. Male fancy guppys are about double the size of male feeder guppys at full grown, too. Feeder guppys tend to be more tolerant of less than perfect water conditions, are a great beginner fish... they don't die so easily if you make mistakes until you learn everything you need to know for a perfect tank. 

Apple snails grow to the size of softballs, quite a bit larger than any apple I've ever seen. Yes, I've seen them at this size... and they're also very dirty when they get big. The mystery snail is a relative of the apple snail, and they even share the same breeding habits. A full grown mystery snail is about the size of a golf ball, so yes, eventually the snail will become too big for the tank. I have never seen one adult size at less than 3 yrs old, so you'll have some time. Mystery snails are actually a tropical animal, and do much better with a heater in the tank. They can tolerate lower temps, but 68 is about their limit on the low end. Below that and they start to have problems.


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