# 10 gallon starting over build



## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

Well since my tank got either a case of ich or NTD. So I took everything out and let it soak in a bleach/water solution including the heater, filter and all the parts. Then i also put a bleach/water solution in the tank and let it soak till the next day. I had 2 kyoto plants, a crested java fern, some moneywort, and a java fern. I dipped each of them in the water/bleach solution and rinsed them all off but Im still kind of iffy on weather or not I should or can put them back in the tank. 

Here is what the tank had looked like:









I have already ordered:
1 - Bag floramax midnight
1 - T8 aqueon floramax bulb
3 - Dwarf subulata
3 - Corkscrew vallisenaria
1 - Rosette sword 
and some dwarf hairgrass. All of which should be here Tuesday! :-D

As of right now i have the tank empty with water in it the filter running along with the heater. I've added some microbe-lift and here's what my parameters look like so far. 

Ammonia: 2.0ppm
PH: 7.5
Nitrite: 0 
Nitrate: 0

Something doesn't seem right with the cycling. It has been running for 3 days thought I might see something already but im probably wrong lol. I also tested the water in the tank for chlorine which showed up as 0. Which is awesome!

Here is the tank now!









Any suggestions would be awesome!


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## SolaceTiger (Oct 4, 2008)

I would say scrap the plants you had before.


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

What is your ammonia source ....and even with a constant source of ammonia, it takes some time to establish the bacteria colony(ies) necessary to properly manage Ammonia to Nitrites and Nitrites to Nitrates of the ensuing bio-load to become an established system.


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

I'm not using anything as an ammonia source. I was going to do the pure ammonia method just waiting for more funds


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## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

Hi! If I could, I have some unrelated (to the cycle, at least) thoughts...

I would trash the kyoto grass. My understanding is that it is not a plant that can be grown fully submerged, and will just die in a few months. So you might want to look that up and then toss it in the trash.

Also, is the rhizome buried on the Java fern? I believe that they must have the rhizome attached to a rock or wood with fishing line above the substrate. If the rhizome is buried, I think it will rot and die.

I hope that helps, and I hope things go smoothly for you from here on out!


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

That was in the old tank I tossed all of the old plants today lol


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

Any suggestions on how I should set up layout for the plants? I'm going to try and get some Malaysian driftwood


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

If you intend to have live plants, my suggestion would be to plant the tank on day one and add a couple fish. With sufficient live plants, if some are fast growing, they will handle the ammonia. Messing with ammonia when you have plants is only adding problems. I can explain further if you ask.

Byron.


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

I'm just waiting on plants now and I'm putting in the floramax today and covering it with a layer of play sand which had been rinsed already. I know that the plants take in the ammonia but I'm kind of puzzled about the cycling with plants


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

ChrisK said:


> I'm just waiting on plants now and I'm putting in the floramax today and covering it with a layer of play sand which had been rinsed already. I know that the plants take in the ammonia but I'm kind of puzzled about the cycling with plants



With sufficient plants, there will be no "cycle" to speak of. Bacteria will still establish, but minimally due to the plants grabbing much of the ammonia. So there is no cycling problems for the fish. Fish must be minimal though, I can suggest possible ones when I know what fish you are planning. Also, the tank must be fairly well planted. A floating plant is especially useful as floaters are always fast growing.

The idea is that plants grab much of the ammonia, and they assimilate it as a nutrient (nitrogen). Nitrite is not a by-product of this, so there is no cycle. However, some nitrosomonas bacteria will colonize surfaces, but with enough plants they will be very few, and the secondary nitrite will be so low as to be undetectable with a test kit.

Byron.


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

Byron said:


> With sufficient plants, there will be no "cycle" to speak of. Bacteria will still establish, but minimally due to the plants grabbing much of the ammonia. So there is no cycling problems for the fish. Fish must be minimal though, I can suggest possible ones when I know what fish you are planning. Also, the tank must be fairly well planted. A floating plant is especially useful as floaters are always fast growing.
> 
> The idea is that plants grab much of the ammonia, and they assimilate it as a nutrient (nitrogen). Nitrite is not a by-product of this, so there is no cycle. However, some nitrosomonas bacteria will colonize surfaces, but with enough plants they will be very few, and the secondary nitrite will be so low as to be undetectable with a test kit.
> 
> Byron.


Hmm good to know! I did order a few plants but none of them are floating plants. The plants I ordered I posted above. As far as fish I was planning on some peppered/Juli corys and maybe a few glow lights nothing is set in stone yet though I'm open for suggestions as it is only a 10 gallon


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

ChrisK said:


> Hmm good to know! I did order a few plants but none of them are floating plants. The plants I ordered I posted above. As far as fish I was planning on some peppered/Juli corys and maybe a few glow lights nothing is set in stone yet though I'm open for suggestions as it is only a 10 gallon


Java Fern is slow growing, but it will look nice attached to the Malaysian driftwood. This is a nice bogwood in a tank, by the way; I have lots of it.

Does your local fish store, or one of them, have any plants?


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

Byron said:


> Java Fern is slow growing, but it will look nice attached to the Malaysian driftwood. This is a nice bogwood in a tank, by the way; I have lots of it.
> 
> Does your local fish store, or one of them, have any plants?


I have a java fern left over from the previous setup but I was advised not to use it. My lfs has some plants but a very very small selection which led me to get plants from a store on ebay. I also ordered a pieced of Malaysia driftwood today. Would you sell any of it? Lol


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

ChrisK said:


> I have a java fern left over from the previous setup but I was advised not to use it. My lfs has some plants but a very very small selection which led me to get plants from a store on ebay. I also ordered a pieced of Malaysia driftwood today. Would you sell any of it? Lol


My fault, I missed the plants in the original post. They will be fine. Plant them, make sure the heater/filter are running. Of the fish mentioned, glowlights would be best first.

Keep an eye out for floating plants, they are quite useful. Even some stem plants just floating work well.


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## KendraMc (Jul 20, 2011)

Byron said:


> Keep an eye out for floating plants, they are quite useful. Even some stem plants just floating work well.


a lot of people on this forum sell floating plants. i bought some water sprite from a person on here a while back and it is doing great.


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

Awesome best info so far thanks Byron! I just received my floramax bulb and substrate I have the substrate soaking in a bucket right now and I put the bulb in. It actually looks a bit dimmer than the original light I had in there. Is that how it's supposed to be? I plan on putting in about 2-3 inches of the floramax and a 1 inch layer of the play sand on top. Once I get my plants and driftwood ill be on business! Now another question I got some dwarf hair grass coming now will that spread out with good setting/parameters?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

ChrisK said:


> Awesome best info so far thanks Byron! I just received my floramax bulb and substrate I have the substrate soaking in a bucket right now and I put the bulb in. It actually looks a bit dimmer than the original light I had in there. Is that how it's supposed to be? I plan on putting in about 2-3 inches of the floramax and a 1 inch layer of the play sand on top. Once I get my plants and driftwood ill be on business! Now another question I got some dwarf hair grass coming now will that spread out with good setting/parameters?


Don't know what the substrate you have is, but be careful not to have too much depth. Two inches of the substrate with about half an inch of sand will be sufficient. And as they will mix if they are disturbed, lay the substrate first, add ythe woiod and plant the plants, then when everything is where you want it, sprinkle the sand on top. Planting through both will certainly mix them.


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

Byron said:


> Don't know what the substrate you have is, but be careful not to have too much depth. Two inches of the substrate with about half an inch of sand will be sufficient. And as they will mix if they are disturbed, lay the substrate first, add ythe woiod and plant the plants, then when everything is where you want it, sprinkle the sand on top. Planting through both will certainly mix them.


Good to know! I was wondering about mixing the sand or just layering it I was going to put all the substrate in then plant everything but ill take your advice lol i am a newbie! The substrate I'm using is called floramax its like an equivalent to eco-complete


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

ChrisK said:


> Good to know! I was wondering about mixing the sand or just layering it I was going to put all the substrate in then plant everything but ill take your advice lol i am a newbie! The substrate I'm using is called floramax its like an equivalent to eco-complete


Just have to ask LoL but why are going to cover the flormax with sand? I had eco-complete(which i still found i needed to use root tablets) and from my understanding Flormax is suppose to be better.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

ChrisK said:


> Good to know! I was wondering about mixing the sand or just layering it I was going to put all the substrate in then plant everything but ill take your advice lol i am a newbie! The substrate I'm using is called floramax its like an equivalent to eco-complete


I am not familiar with Floramax but I am with Eco-Complete and the similar Flourite. If you combine sand with either of these, the sand would work its way down and leave the larger grains on top.

You can use just the Floramax on its own, presumably. Or plant the tank as I mentioned and then sprinkle the sand. It still will mix down over time, and with substrate fish even faster.


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

I only wanted to put sand over it because I didn't think it would be good for Cories. They loved the sand in my old tank


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

ChrisK said:


> I only wanted to put sand over it because I didn't think it would be good for Cories. They loved the sand in my old tank


Ohhh well that makes sense. I have never used flormax just heard of it. I don't know what the texture of it is like but if it is as rough and sharp as eco-complete. Corys wouldn't be a good idea. Though from looking at pics of flormax it didn't look that way to me?


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

Boredomb said:


> Ohhh well that makes sense. I have never used flormax just heard of it. I don't know what the texture of it is like but if it is as rough and sharp as eco-complete. Corys wouldn't be a good idea. Though from looking at pics of flormax it didn't look that way to me?


Yeah its a pretty rough texture and kind of sharp lol that's why I figured some sand over it would work out better


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

LoL ok then I don't blame you for trying to put sand on top. I just took my eco-complete out altogether since it was shape and was still having to use root tablets(for my jungle vals.). So didn't see the point of it anymore and wanted sand so went that way.


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## jennesque (May 11, 2011)

You'll want to put some screen over it between the layers to stop the flormax from rising above the sand.. nylon screen or some sort of plastic.


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

What plastic would be safe in the tank? Like viscolyene?


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

Well here is what I did today first i received this!








and did some of this








and here is a picture of the floramax for reference









I figured i'd make kind of a hill/rise in the back right corner to make it a bit different also it will make a good spot for the driftwood i ordered and the plants/driftwood should be here Thursday!


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

Just waiting on plants:roll:


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

My plants have arrived! I will update later tonight!


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

Ok so all my plants arrived today which makes me happy! 








Plants and driftwood all from mikes wet pets on ebay great guy to have the pleasure of doing buisness with!
















And after an hour of moving stuff around I came out with this








I know I know it doesnt look amazing or even good lol but hey its my first real planted tank attempt


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

Think it will look good once you have some dritfwood in there. As you said this is your first attempt everyone has to start somewhere. Nice job and I am sure the end result will look good.


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

Thanks! I got the driftwood soaking right now it should be ready for the tank tomorrow. I definitely recommend mikeswetpets on ebay i have never had a smoother transaction he even wrote out personal instructions for each plant I ordered and for the driftwood.


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## KendraMc (Jul 20, 2011)

it looks good for a start, i bet it will look great once the plants start to grow in some more.


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

Thanks! I'm just waiting for the ammonia to die down lol


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

Ok so I'm finally done with planting/decorating here is how it looks now







it came out better than I thought lol. Now I just need fish I saw at my lfs they have dwarf cichlids I was thinking about it but I don't know much about them


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

ChrisK said:


> Ok so I'm finally done with planting/decorating here is how it looks now
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tanks is looking. May I make some suggestions. Hope you don't mind. I think if you add some more driftwood or some rocks to the right side of the tank it would look even better. Also might suggest moving the sword to the middle kinda like a show piece plant. Also once the plants grow in and fill out they will look even better. Have you thought about a background? Solid black will help everything pop the colors of the plants and fish. 

Now as far as the dwarf cichlids goes. There are many different types. That need different care. Do know what kinds they are? Also knowing your water parameters will help on deciding on the fish.


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

Boredomb said:


> Tanks is looking. May I make some suggestions. Hope you don't mind. I think if you add some more driftwood or some rocks to the right side of the tank it would look even better. Also might suggest moving the sword to the middle kinda like a show piece plant. Also once the plants grow in and fill out they will look even better. Have you thought about a background? Solid black will help everything pop the colors of the plants and fish.
> 
> Now as far as the dwarf cichlids goes. There are many different types. That need different care. Do know what kinds they are? Also knowing your water parameters will help on deciding on the fish.


I do have some rocks I was thinking about adding. And I'm definitely getting a background lol it was kind of a budget setup. I don't know what types of cichlids there are they were African kenyi I think. As of now my pH is 7.5
Ammonia is 2.0
Nitrates 0
Nitrates 0

And I'm in Florida we have pretty hard water


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

Knowing the GH and KH will help a lot not just hard or soft water. The best advice I can give ya is fine them out. Then find out what kind of fish they are for sure. Then research research research. LoL I don't really know a whole lot when it comes to certain fish species. So fine out that information and I am sure someone on here can help you out with.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

For the background, the cheapest is plain black construction paper. You can buy a sheet (or two, depending upon size) at a hobby, arts or craft type store and cut it to fit the back and tape it on. I use this on several of my tanks. It is black so it "disappears" making the tank look deeper, and being non-glossy it is un-noticeable.


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

I was planning on using construction paper lol. Now If I could only find south Floridas tap water parameters id be set in knowing what I need to do


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## jennesque (May 11, 2011)

Call them if you can't find it online. Hopefully they're not like my water company who won't give it out, at least through any easy method.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

65-80 mg/l
3.8-4.7 grains/gallon

I think this is it but I myself have no clue what it means lol


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

ChrisK said:


> 65-80 mg/l
> 3.8-4.7 grains/gallon
> 
> I think this is it but I myself have no clue what it means lol


Is that for GH? ?


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

It doesn't say at all lol


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

ChrisK said:


> It doesn't say at all lol


LoL well ok then. Might need a little more info to off of.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

ChrisK said:


> 65-80 mg/l
> 3.8-4.7 grains/gallon
> 
> I think this is it but I myself have no clue what it means lol


If this is related to hardness, it indicates soft water. What "words" were next to these numbers? If it is a website, post the link and I'll take a look.

Byron.


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

http://www.ci.boca-raton.fl.us/util/waterfaq.shtmI here's the link its all it says


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

ChrisK said:


> http://www.ci.boca-raton.fl.us/util/waterfaq.shtmI here's the link its all it says


That link doesn't work; I fiddled with it a bit, but couldn't get it to work.


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

I went on Google and typed in general hardness for boca raton tap water it should be the third link down it says frequently asked questions


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

They call it "hardness" so one must assume it is the general hardness. Which would be soft with those numbers.


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

I'm stumped as far as the hardness goes. But anyways my ammonia spiked to 4.0! Almost cycled?


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

Added the black construction paper and rocks!


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

Ok so for some reason after water changes everyday the ammonia isnt dying down and it doesnt seem like the plants are using up the ammonia either

heres what my ammonia test is showing 









its at around 4.0ppm

is this normal or is it just a spike that's lasting a while? the nitrite hasn't come up at all yet.

I am using API ammo-lock, and API stress coat with tap water for water changes. The water changes have been about 25% everyday


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

I would stop using ammo-lock. Not sure that is helping the case. Another thing have you check your tap water for ammonia? Also I start doing bigger water changes.


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## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

I don't know if it matters now, but the website is: City of Boca Raton - Utility Services

But, yes all it says is:
"What is the hardness of the City of Boca Raton's water?
65 - 80 mg/L or ppm
3.8 - 4.7 grains/gallon"

So yes, soft. That's weird! And I'm totally, totally sick with jealousy!  lol


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

Hahahaha let me get your address I'll send you some water lol. I tested my tap water and it does in fact have some ammonia in it about .25ppm. I did a 50% water change a few min ago. I was at walmart earlier and saw they had kenyi cichlids for pretty cheap lol they were dwarfs only get up to 4 inches, I also saw they had some dwarf gouramis for a good price too


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## Taivan (Oct 28, 2011)

Hm


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

ChrisK said:


> Hahahaha let me get your address I'll send you some water lol. I tested my tap water and it does in fact have some ammonia in it about .25ppm. I did a 50% water change a few min ago. I was at walmart earlier and saw they had kenyi cichlids for pretty cheap lol they were dwarfs only get up to 4 inches, I also saw they had some dwarf gouramis for a good price too


What are you using for a dechlorinator?


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

Api stress coat.


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

Not really sure what plants you have other then the sword in the middle there but they are look to be slow growing plants. My suggestion here would be get some Dechlorinator that detoxifies ammonia. Prime is one that does this (there is another brand that also does but don't remember the name of it). It basically turns ammonia into ammonium for 24hrs maybe longer I'm thinking I heard someone say up to 32hrs. I would also get some fast growing plants. Stem plants are good for this. They will grab the ammonia/ammonium faster then the rest of the plants. Though one has to be careful when choicing stem plants as some need moderate to high lighting. Pennywort would be excellent choice here. Also floating plants will us it faster. Pennywort once again works good for that. Some others would b Duckweed or Amazon frogbit, and/or water sprite just to name some. Any of those would work at grabbing the ammonia faster.

Oh also I might get rid of the airstone it might be causing to much surface disturbance. Letting the C02 out. In a natural planted tank you don't have that much to begin with so it is usually best not to cause to much surface disturbance.


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## n2fish (Sep 18, 2011)

ChrisK said:


> Hahahaha let me get your address I'll send you some water lol. I tested my tap water and it does in fact have some ammonia in it about .25ppm. I did a 50% water change a few min ago. I was at walmart earlier and saw they had kenyi cichlids for pretty cheap lol they were dwarfs only get up to 4 inches, I also saw they had some dwarf gouramis for a good price too


Chris - you might be running into the samething I am. I tested my tap water and it showed high ammonia as well, around 1.0 to 1.5. After talking to one of the better LFS here in the Deerfiled Beach/Boca area in South Florida, they tell me it's actually Chloramine not Ammonia which tests the same.

I don't have any idea if this is what your running into but you may want to visit your LDS and tell them about your high test results, you may find out it's Chloramine<sp> as well.


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

What is that better store around here? Also what's lds? Lol


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## n2fish (Sep 18, 2011)

ChrisK said:


> What is that better store around here? Also what's lds? Lol


LOL - I'm a pretty active diver and a moderator on a couple diving web sites so I default typed LDS rather than LFS

LDS = Local Dive Shop

Ah, I see you're in Boca.... call Barrier Reef up in Boca, their north of Glades Rd.


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

Hahaha gotcha im also on a drifting forum sometimes the lingo intertwines lol. Thanks alot i will definitely do so!


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

So I have suction cups on the airline to my airstone I saw this thing squirming aon it as I was doing a water change today so I tried to get it with the siphon turned out it was some kind of worm! I don't know where it went but what is it? Lol probably came from one om my plants. I guess I didn't rinse them enough. Also as of today I got the high ammonia problem under control it sitting right now at 1.0ppm


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

actually i just came home and the ammonia is back up to around 2-3 ppm should i clean the filter? maybe there is some decaying plant matter in there?


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

Anyway here's an update my nitrites started to climb and i went by barrier reef with a water sample of my tank water. They told me that my tank was still in the beginning of cycling and told me to add 2-3 fish to kick it in high gear. So add fish I did. I went to pet supermarket they had a really good sale on some fish. I saw they had buenos aires tetras 3 for 99 cents!!!! so I came home with three. 2 of them are about 2inches and the third is pretty small i read in the fish profiles that they are extremely hardy so it worked out in my favor! 

as of right now my parameters are 
Ph: 7.5
Ammonia: 2.0
nitrites: .25

here is a picture of my new fish


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Make sure you do water changes (half the tank volume) daily if ammonia or nitrite are above zero. No fish is so hardy that it can withstand poisoning by ammonia or nitrite without long-term issues.

If you use a water conditioner that detoxifies ammonia and nitrite--and I know of 2 that do, Prime and Ultimate--you can do alternate day water changes if a/n remain above zero. These conditioners are effective for 24-48 hours and both ammonia and nitrite will still register with tests whether they are toxic or not.

I trust you realize that a 10g is too small for this species Hyphessobrycon anisitsi long-term? It attains 3 inches and needs a group of 8 as it may nip.

Byron.


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

Thanks Byron yes I have been using api ammo lock and i know i won't be keeping these fish its just to get the cycle going


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

Ok so its been a while since I've posted but here's an update 

my tank is I think cycled?
from left to right ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate









other than that the two corkscrew vallisneria that i had, had melted away... also on of the dwarf subulata has melted too:-?

both were trying to grow back but started to brown and die already.Im thinking I may not have enough light


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

Well after doing some reading from my test results my tank is cycled. Since it has cycled I added 6 rasbora heteomorpha and a Chinese algae eater. I had some algae growing some green and some brown since I added the algae eater he actually got the situation under control.


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

Chris that algae eater will get to big for a ten gallon tank. Also they can get really mean when they mature. They will also stop eating algae when they mature. A "better" suited algae eater would be an Oto catfish for your tank. They do best in groups and I think 3 would be fine in your tank provide you water parameters are ok for them.


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

Cool lol that I did not know thanks! He's pretty small right now


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

Yeah they are kinda mean buggers. Have a read about them in the profile. It explains it really well.


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## ChrisK (Sep 14, 2011)

Yeah the thing was i was trying to get an oto and pointed out the one i wanted because the whole tank was otos but i wound up with the CAE.


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