# Sick and dying fish- multiple species



## jimmadsen (May 5, 2013)

Greetings all. I have a 50 gallon curved front tank with 2 aquaclear 50g filters on there. One has charcoal the other does not. Temp stays at about 70 deg. Lighting is a 50/50 Actinic daylight bulb. Light and bubbler with 2 8" strips on each side of the tank with large bubbles run on a timer from noon to 9pm.

Have currently:
8 neon tetras (a few weeks ago had 10)
6 tetra skirts (2 white / albine, 2 zebra striped, 2 glo)
5 male guppies (seems to be enough of a school they do not fight)
4 oto's
1 bristlenose pleco
1 other pleco type catfish that looks like a blackish white and brown with a horizontal stripe4" oto forgot his type

Substrate is about 3 inches of gravel. Have an algae ball and a live plant. Try and change weekly to two weeks at 20% always vacuuming gravel.

Few weeks ago had a third glo tetra seem to have swim bladder problems. Started to corkscrew, swim sideways float to the top and such. He eventually died and got pulled pretty quickly. Subsequent research leads me to fear it was a parasite.

In past 2 weeks have had 2 neon tetras die for no apparent reason. Nobody in the tank seems to be nippers and they were pretty safe in their school.

Today found a very lethargic oto lying on his back until disturbed then swims around. And a glo tetro losing the roundness over his eyes, now looks more angular. This poor guy kept getting stuck on the filter. No apparent discoloration or fin nips.

Did a 15 gallon change and replaced carbon and put in a ammonia absorber. Vaccumed out the gravel real good as well.

Further inspection shows 2 neon tetras with 1 bright white spot each on flank, one near gill the other at fin joint. This is a bright white. The type of bright white that you can spot across the room with the actinic bulb. I also say on 2 of my glo danios (blue and purple, supposidly the bigger hardier ones of all the colors) that their stomoach areas are losing their color and turning pale white. No noted swimming problems to these four fish. My other 2 glo danios do not appear to have same issue.

I will be working on getting all 6 into my 2 gallon hospital tank. But that is way to small for all of them!

Is this parasite? Neon tetra disese? My imagination? Thanks for the help.

Jim

1. What is the size of your tank? 50 gallon

2. What are your water parameters? State the brand of test kit used. Brought to petco and asked them to test to be sure, nitrates tad high, everything else normal (am getting my own kit soon)

3. Is your aquarium set up freshwater or brackish water? freshwater

4. How long the aquarium has been set up? 9 months

5. What fish do you have? How many are in your tank? How big are they? How long have you had them? fish as above, skirt tetras 8-9 months, guppies 4-5 months, danios 6-7 months, neons 3-4 months, otos 4-5 months, unknown pleco 4 months, bristlenose 3 months, neon tetras 2-3 months

6. Were the fish placed under quarantine period (minus the first batch from the point wherein the tank is ready to accommodate the inhabitants)? no, only the one tank except for a hospital tank at 2 gallons

7. What temperature is the tank water currently? 70

8. Are there live plants in the aquarium? yes

9. What filter are you using? State brand, maintenance routine and power capacity. 2 auqaclear 50 gallon filters. both with sponge cleaned weekly, one with charcoal, both with biomax tablets. Just put in new sponges new charcoal and ammonia remover to be on safe side to one without charcoal. These replaced per manufactorer

10. Any other equipment used (aside from heater and filter which are two very important components of the tank)? bubbler

11. Does your aquarium receive natural sunlight at any given part of the day? What is your lighting schedule (assuming you do not rely on sunlight for our viewing pleasure)? light on noon to 9 pm, some daylight when curtains open in living room same time frame. plenty of algae growth

12. When did you perform your last water change and how much water was changed? How often do you change your water? Do you vacuum the substrate? today, 15 gallon, 1-2 weeks, yes

13. What foods do you provide your fish? What is the feeding schedule? tropical fish flake, once a day at night

14. What unusual signs have you observed in your fish? see post

15. Have you treated your fish ahead of diagnosis? If so, what treatments did you use? State your reasons for planning ahead of proper diagnosis. no


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## GwenInNM (Feb 2, 2011)

jimmadsen said:


> Greetings all. I have a 50 gallon curved front tank with 2 aquaclear 50g filters on there. One has charcoal the other does not. Temp stays at about 70 deg. Lighting is a 50/50 Actinic daylight bulb. Light and bubbler with 2 8" strips on each side of the tank with large bubbles run on a timer from noon to 9pm.
> 
> Have currently:
> 8 neon tetras (a few weeks ago had 10)
> ...



Welcome to the forum! Sorry no one posted yet to help. Difficult when these things happen. :-? Your tank sounds like it's cycled, but something appears to have caused stress in your tank. The spots sound like ich possibly, which is easily treated with something like "Quick cure" (follow directions for tetras) and increasing temp. Your tank temp at 70 is too low. I'd raise it slowly to about 78 and keep it there. To treat for ich, you can raise your temp up to 85 as long as the fish don't show signs of stress. I'm guessing the temp of 70 may be the problem, but I could be wrong. 

You should not replace all your filter media with water changes, in case you are doing that. Media hold very benefical bacteria.

You should not have nitrate readings over 20ppm. I keep mine around 5-10ppm. Get a liquid API test kit asap. I would not trust Petsmarts tests, as they use strips which are not reliable. Make sure you don't have Nitrites, which are very deadly. If you have nitrates, you shouldn't be getting nitrite readings, unless your bacteria level can't keep up with the waste/bioload. I hope that helps a little. How are things going now?


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## MoneyMitch (Aug 3, 2009)

85 will not kill ich at all... 87 is the lowest temp for any control of the parasite... anything less just speeds up the life cycle and infection. ive also yet to come across anything about striops being more inaccurate then liquids. seems to come down to user perception more then anything


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## GwenInNM (Feb 2, 2011)

MoneyMitch said:


> 85 will not kill ich at all... 87 is the lowest temp for any control of the parasite... anything less just speeds up the life cycle and infection. ive also yet to come across anything about striops being more inaccurate then liquids. seems to come down to user perception more then anything


The temp doesn't kill the parasite, it just speeds up their life cycle and allows the medication or salt (many people use this, but since you have a plant, I didn't mention it) to work. Ich can only be killed when it's in its free swimming stage, and not while it is hosting the fish.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Heat alone cures ich, every time - no need for salt or meds or anything else. It kills the parasite by interfering with its life cycle.

86 is the magic number - it's what is most commonly quoted, and will do the job the vast majority of the time. MM - 87 is not the lowest. We have gone over this before. its only one degree, i know, but inaccurate is inaccurate. If you want to keep saying that, then say 87 is the lowest temp that YOU use.

However, some strains are more resistant to heat than others - occasionally you hear about a case where it does not work. Happened to me one time, so I kicked the temp up to 89 and it was gone. From that point on I just go right to 88. I give all new fish a heat treatment while in quarantine. 

Anyway, 85 may work as well, but the lower you go with the temp, the more likely it is not to work. The treatment time is 2 weeks. The spots should be gone after about 5 days, but maintain the temp. I don't know if its ACTUALLY needed, to maintain the temp for the full two weeks, but it's easy enough to do, and I've not found a reason to test it. Some people are concerned about the effect on their fish, but I have administered the treatment to close to 50 species, from tropicals to cold water to ancient fish, without a problem.


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## MoneyMitch (Aug 3, 2009)

jaysee said:


> Heat alone cures ich, every time - no need for salt or meds or anything else. It kills the parasite by interfering with its life cycle.
> 
> 86 is the magic number - it's what is most commonly quoted, and will do the job the vast majority of the time. MM - 87 is not the lowest. We have gone over this before. its only one degree, i know, but inaccurate is inaccurate. If you want to keep saying that, then say 87 is the lowest temp that YOU use.
> 
> ...


agreed, however 87 is not inaccurate as there have been setting of 87 on some heaters ive used in the past. the digital thermo that was also used read below 87.. sometimes it would sit at 86 sometimes lower then that. the ich did not go away but got worse in those tanks. personal experience is personal experience. some books will say 85 some will say 91, in MY personal experience 87 seems to be the magic number anything less just makes things worse not better.


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## jimmadsen (May 5, 2013)

Wow a whole bunch of replies all of a sudden!

Quick updates, I moved the ones that worried me to my 2.5 gallon tank. I used fresh water but the sponge and charcoal from my recent change. When moving them, the oto and glo skirt tetra were pretty lifeless so I euthanized them to be on the safe side.

I raised the temp to 88 using my imersible 300w heater. I have the gauge on the heater as well as a mercury thermometer on the opposite side of the tank. I do not have a heater for the 2.5 gallon tank. But the water is at room temp of 70. All four fish in the 2.5 gallon are very active.

I was also initially thinking about ick but I am not to sure about that. Here are some pictures I took:










Here is a good picture of the glo danio, he should be all blue. I am worried about the discoloration on his belly. My purple danio is having the same but his picture didn't come out as well. And nope I do not have gravel in this tank. Not supposed to be used long term!










This one is a very blurry neon tetra. The white spot is what concerned me. I realize it is hard to tell but I cannot really capture it on camera in the 2.5 since the actinic bulb is what made it stand out.

Before I put the 4 concerning ones back in the main tank, I want to make sure it is actually something that I don't have to quarantine for.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

MoneyMitch said:


> agreed, however 87 is not inaccurate as there have been setting of 87 on some heaters ive used in the past. the digital thermo that was also used read below 87.. sometimes it would sit at 86 sometimes lower then that. the ich did not go away but got worse in those tanks. personal experience is personal experience. some books will say 85 some will say 91, in MY personal experience 87 seems to be the magic number anything less just makes things worse not better.


The inaccuracy is saying that anything less than 87 does not work, because lower temps DO work. It may not have worked for YOU, but as I explained not every strain is the same. I can't even begin to count the number of times people reported success at 86. Granted we are talking about a 1 degree difference, but it's all in the wording my friend. There isn't anything anyone can say if you say "in my experience 87 is required".... But to say " 87 is the lowest temp for any control of the parasite" is a statement of fact, which is in fact incorrect.

While we are on the subject, one ting to keep in mind is that heater temp settings are not always accurate, as was mentioned. Setting it to a specific temp may or may not get it there, so until you know how accurate your heater is at that higher temp, it is best to raise the temp cautiously.


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## MoneyMitch (Aug 3, 2009)

ill be sure to word my reply's way more precisely. I tend to forget there are some that will dissect anything they can


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Jim, thanks for the pics, but they are too large to see anything. I'm not sure if that has an influence on the blurriness or not. If the spot in the last picture that you are referring to is on the side of the belly there, then that is most certainly not ich.


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## jimmadsen (May 5, 2013)

I tried to get the spots better on the neons but I am not seeing them now under direct flashlight. Still worried about the spots though. These were bright white spots as if I took a pin with white paint on it and put it there.


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## FishyFishy89 (Jul 3, 2011)

If there are ich strands that are more heat resistant, I'd rather use medication than taking the risk of just using heat to cure ich. I lost 90% of my stock treating ich with just heat! It didn't get knocked out until I started medicating with Kordon Rid-Ich+

You have 4 fish in a 2.5 gallon? That's overstocked. I suggest only stocking 1 fish in the 2.5 gallon.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

FishyFishy89 said:


> I lost 90% of my stock treating ich with just heat!


Sounds like there was something else wrong with them. You're experience is by far the exception.

Anyone who wants to know more about treating ich with heat can do a simple google search, and read the countless threads on dozens of forums on the matter. There are more successes than one can count.


Jim, if it looks like the fish has grains of salt on it, then it is ich. Anything else, is not ich, and raising the temp can be disastrous. If you can get a clearer picture, it would help immensely. In the first picture, I am pretty certain that there is no ich. It's clear enough to tell.


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## jimmadsen (May 5, 2013)

FishyFishy89 said:


> You have 4 fish in a 2.5 gallon? That's overstocked. I suggest only stocking 1 fish in the 2.5 gallon.


The 4 fish are the sick ones. I have a 50 gallon and a 2.5 gallon. The 4 in the 2.5 are the ones I worried were sick. I left the healthy ones in the 50 gallon.


They do not have anything that looks like ich type salt strands. I am not seeing the white spots at this point so I may put them back in the main tank. I tried shining a ultraviolet flashlight on them to see if it had the same properties as the actinic and did not see anything. Although the glo fish looked quite interesting!

Any thoughts on the discoloration on the danios? My reading on neon tetra disease showed that discoloration of the abdomen. Below is from fishchannel.com

_At very low levels of infection there may be no symptoms visible at all, and it is usually the case that the more obvious symptoms of neon tetra disease are only apparent on heavily infected aquarium fish a few days away from death. Infected aquarium fish will often spend less time with their schoolmates than normal, typically hiding away under aquarium plants and showing no interest in fish food. The aquarium fish’s colors fade, and sometimes gray or white patches on the flanks become apparent. In advanced cases the aquarium fish may have trouble swimming, and the fish may develop odd swellings or contortions indicative of damage to the musculature. Usually the aquarium fish dies within two or three days of the first symptoms of neon tetra disease becoming apparent._

I kinda want to leave them in isolation for a week to see what happens.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

In my experience, neon tetra disease kills pretty quickly once symptoms are exhibited. It's a terrible thing to have to deal with.

Just about all fish are susceptible to it - it is spread by consumption, whether a fish is eating an infected dead fish, or nipping an infected live fish. If you think it might be NTD, then separating the fish is the right thing to do.

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## FishyFishy89 (Jul 3, 2011)

No Jaysee, it was just ich. I'm not having any issues now that the ich is gone. 

If there is just 1 small spot, it sounds like it could be fungus. I agree that we need clearer pictures.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

As far as you could see. Losing 90% of your stock is a freak occurrence, which is indicative of an underlying issue.


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## jimmadsen (May 5, 2013)

Here are two videos. The first one is the ones I put into a quarantine. The second one is a neon in the main tank that is having that same color fading on his left flank as the danios. Turn your volume down, my kid wanted more cherios and he got his point across! At 13 seconds you can see the spot on the neon at its clearest. (video1)

MAH00875 - YouTube

MAH00876 - YouTube


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Not ich on the neons, and not NTD on them either. I didn't see anything wrong with the fish in the second video.

As for the glofish, it was tough to tell because of how much it moved around. What else is in that tank, besides the neons and the danio? Another danio? I'm not sure what's up with it's side....


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## jimmadsen (May 5, 2013)

Yes, it is another danio in there. It also has some discoloration but not as much.

Total of 2 neons with those spots and 2 danios in the tank.

This all came about after I lost 2 neons, 1 tetra skirt and 1 oto in less than 2 weeks. The first 2 neons I did not look into things that closely until the skirt and oto started dying at same time.

Glad to see it is not NTD, that had me worried.

Didn't think was ick but nice to have second opinion.

Thanks


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

I've seen those spots on fish before, but I do not know what they are. Could be a fungus, could be a bacteria, could be a parasite that isn't ich. Could be a pimple  j/k Hopefully someone will know what they are, and be able to help you with the danios, since that appears to be a completely different issue.


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## jimmadsen (May 5, 2013)

Well if it is just a pimple, I can always pop it!

Gonna leave them in the small tank until Sat I think then I will put the neons back in the main if all seems well. 

Still keeping an eye on those danios....


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

It's a risk to put them back in the main tank before you've dealt with/figured out what is going on. I wouldn't, if I were you. I'd go out and get at least a 5 gallon for quarantine, if not a 10. Being able to quarantine new fish, and separate sick/infected fish is REALLY important for long term success in the hobby.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I'm in agreement with what jaysee has posted.

I have had those white spots on fish, in fact one of my Roberti tetras got one just the other day at the base of the dorsal fin. They do not seem to spread, so I leave the tank alone. Sometimes the spots darken and become almost invisible over a period of weeks. I've no idea what they are. The fish can live on, eating normally; other times they weaken and die.

As this blotch appeared only on 1 fish, it may have nothing to do with what is killing the others. I would leave the fish isolated. They are obviously highly stressed, so can you throw in some floating plants? This may calm them a bit, which can't hurt.

The inability to swim described earlier for another fish can suddenly hit one fish; I remove it as they never recover. This does not appear to be contagious. I suspect it may be genetic, but it can be brought about by other issues such as protozoan.

Keep us posted on the state of the isolated fish.

As for the temp, it is a bit low, but these fish generally prefer it cooler than normal tropical temperatures. I would however raise it to around 75F. And water changes should be more regular and more volume; never less than once every week, and 1/3 to 1/2 the tank volume. It is quite amazing how beneficial these can be. I'm sure it is simply that the more water changed, the more active and healthy the fish remain, and fighting off this or that is easier. Works with humans, why not fish.;-)

Byron.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi jimmadsen and welcome to the forum. Chesherca asked me to take a look at your thread. Seems like you've had some problems with fish dying and you suspected neon tetra disease.

Neon Tetra Disease or the parasite plistophora hyphessobryconis is where sporozoan parasites eat away at the muscle tissue. This degradation then manifests itself in white patches or loss of color. In neons, one sure way to tell if this is the cause is if the blue strip along the side fades. As the muscle is eaten away, the fish often loses the ability to swim properly. While tetras are the most susceptible, other fish including guppies and rasboras (of which danios are related to) can also be struck. There is no treatment so euthanization is the best option. 

However, not all white patches are color loss. In some cases, fish can be struck with severe enough cases of other external parasites that they overproduce slime coat, causing a white matte patch. This could also be a possible cause for the white spots. 

Depending on the stress level of each fish, their immune system may or may not be able to combat an infestation. Sounds like the ones who are sick may have had suppressed or stressed immune systems. 

For treatment, I'd suggest increasing the heat to 86 F in the 50gal to speed up the life cycle of any present parasites. You may need to add extra aeration as warmer water holds less oxygen. One week of this will work. For the sick fish in the hospital tank, I would also increase the heat 86 F for them if possible and add 1/2 teaspoon of aquarium salt per gallon. 

This part will suck but do at least a partial water change and a vacuum of the bottom of the hospital tank every day to remove any spores or parasites that may have fallen off. Continue with this treatment for two weeks. If the fish start to improve, you can start doing fewer water changes in the second week.

Now, just a brief aside: high heat does indeed speed up the life cycle of most external parasites and in the case of ich parasites, it actually prevents them from completing their life cycle at all. (Fish Diseases, Noga, pg. 97) According to this book, at 44 F, it will take the ich parasite 6 weeks or more to reach the theronts stage, where it is most susceptible to treatment. At 86 F, it will only take 3-7 days. High temps must be maintained for at least a week though, as the life cycle as noted can be 7 days. 

Good luck and keep us updated. 

Sources: Fish Diseases, Noga; A-Z Tropical Fish Diseases and Health Problems, Burgess, Bailey, and Excell; The Super Simple Guide to Common Fish Diseases, Jepson


EDIT: I went back to doublecheck and see if I missed anything. The white pimple? Possibly the beginnings of lymphocystis. This is a viral disease and thus can't be treated but it is usually nonfatal and will go away on its own within a few months. The severity of the disease depends on the fish's ability to fight it off. A fish with a weak immune system will often get covered in cauliflower-like cysts but a fish who is strong may only get one or two. It is contagious but again, whether or not other fish get it depends on their immune system. Only real dangers with lymphocystis are if the cysts burst and become infected or if the cysts cover the head and impede eating. All you can do is keep an eye on that spot. 

Hope this info helps.


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## jimmadsen (May 5, 2013)

Thank you for the reply. I will bump up the heat to 86 in the 50 gallon and I will start doing 33-50% changes every Saturday. Guess I have a great excuse now to build myself a python.

Sounds like the neons should be ok if kept an eye on and kept non stressed. Since it has been just about 5 days with no apparent ongoing distress I am not as concerned as I was.

I do not have a heater for the small tank. It wasn't even really thought of to keep around as a hospital tank until all this happened. It has not had a problem maintaining room temp of around 70 degrees.

My thoughts now are to put them back into the main tank and turn the heat up. There is usually someone always home cause of our newborn so we can lay eyes on the 2 danios every few hours and scoop it out if there is any sign of trouble.

Any thoughts on that plan?

Idealy when space permits (in a small apartment now) I want to set up a 15 gallon for my kids that I am thinking could be a hospital / newbie tank. Although I woulnd't want it to be empty all the time either if I do not need it. Can I put some in there to keep it stocked or does that defeat the entire purpose.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

How are the danios acting right now? While I'm usually against putting sick fish back into a main tank where they can easily infect other fish, I also totally understand that it may be necessary at times.

I know that some people do keep a few fish in their hospital tanks to keep a biological filter going but the problem is what to do with the fish if the tank is needed for emergency service. As I learned the hard way, switching fish around from tank to tank is a great way to pass a disease or parasites around.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

I leave my quarantine/hospital tanks without fish in them for weeks to months on end. I used to leave a fish in them to "keep the cycle", but have long since found that unnecessary. I do have small MTS colonies in them all, so maybe thats enough. when i get new fish, all I do is add prime for the first couple days as a precautionary measure, and not feed for a few days. Then all is well.


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## jimmadsen (May 5, 2013)

Everyone is back in the main tank and the temp is at 86 degrees. Everyone is swimming around pretty well. The danios actually seem to be more active now in the heat. So I will have to find a happy temp for them. Only problem is that my heater is 300W! Ouch.

The neons are schooling down at the bottom which was their norm and it is hard to tell but the spots I was worried about are diminished. The danios are also doing fine. The blue one with the discoloration has me still concerned but I noticed that the white spot is pretty much equal on both sides. It just does not make sense that it would be a parasite since that would not be equal (to my line of thinking).

I am doing a water change in about an hour (need to finish changing the oil in my wifes car first) thinking about a 50% change. Built my python type syphon so no more lugging milk jugs of water back and forth.

I have the API Master Test Kit on the way from Amazon. Should have it tuesday. The prices around me were much higher.

After this is settled, I will need to look at my algae problem, growing faster than everyone will eat it. But that is a question for a different part of the forum.

Thanks all, will keep doing updates.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

It is to be expected that the fish are more active in the warmer water. 

The wattage of the heater shouldn't be a problem.

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## jimmadsen (May 5, 2013)

jaysee said:


> The wattage of the heater shouldn't be a problem.


Was thinking more of my power bill. But the thing is only on for probably a few minutes out of every hour. Actually I have a tool that will measure that, might as well plug it in and see what it says...


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## FishyFishy89 (Jul 3, 2011)

jimmadsen said:


> Was thinking more of my power bill. But the thing is only on for probably a few minutes out of every hour. Actually I have a tool that will measure that, might as well plug it in and see what it says...


hehe
1 fish tank won't make a noticeable impact in your bill. I might of seen a $1? increase in my electric bill for my 75 gallon. Runs 2 heaters/canister filter.


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## jimmadsen (May 5, 2013)

AGGHH dead guppy!









Showed no signs of any problems, got up this morning and everyone was chasing his carcas around nipping at the fins. Everyone else looks fine though.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

May have beena fish that just took more than it could handle. Keep an eye on the others, as previously suggested by us.


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## jimmadsen (May 5, 2013)

Lost a neon last night. It was one of the ones that I put back in.

Here are water test results:

pH: 8
Ammonia: 0
NO2: 0
NO3: 40

Going to be getting the pH taken care of asap, whats a good goal?

NO3, I have 2 aquaclear 50's on the tank running 24/7. Filter 1 has sponge that is 2 months old. Rinsed with every cleaning. Charcoal a week old. Biopellets about 5 months old (pet store was out of these). Filter 2 sponge 5 months old (still looks to be in great shape, rinsed every cleaning). Ammonia absorber week old. Biopellets 6 months old.

Every cleaning I vacuum the gravel. Have 1 live plant and a moss ball. Aeration was on 9 hours a day, took it off timer and now running 24/7. Aeration is 2- 8" strips on either side of tank with large bubbles using a tetra whisper60. I use topfin water conditioner with every fill.


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## jimmadsen (May 5, 2013)

Just checked my tap water. It has a pH of 8.4-8.8!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

> Just checked my tap water. It has a pH of 8.4-8.8!


Did you remember to shake the water in a jar very briskly for a few minutes to outgas the CO2? If yes, then this should be a fairly reliable number.



> Lost a neon last night. It was one of the ones that I put back in.


This is not really a surprise, if this was one of those with spots/blotches. Sometimes these last, sometimes not.



> Here are water test results:
> pH: 8
> Ammonia: 0
> NO2: 0
> ...


What do you mean by taking care of the pH? And as part of this, what is your tap water GH (general hardness) and KH (carbonate hardness, or Alkalinity) as these are closely related?

Nitrates at 40ppm is high. What is the tap water nitrate?



> NO3, I have 2 aquaclear 50's on the tank running 24/7. Filter 1 has sponge that is 2 months old. Rinsed with every cleaning. Charcoal a week old. Biopellets about 5 months old (pet store was out of these). Filter 2 sponge 5 months old (still looks to be in great shape, rinsed every cleaning). Ammonia absorber week old. Biopellets 6 months old.
> 
> Every cleaning I vacuum the gravel. Have 1 live plant and a moss ball. Aeration was on 9 hours a day, took it off timer and now running 24/7. Aeration is 2- 8" strips on either side of tank with large bubbles using a tetra whisper60. I use topfin water conditioner with every fill.


Nothing wrong here with respect to cleaning filter, etc. I would increase the plants, but given all this aeration and to allow you to keep it running, floating plants would be best. They assimilate CO2 from the air, not the water, so driving CO2 out with bubblers is not an issue, and it will allow more oxygen (sort of). Water Sprite is ideal, or Brazilian Pennywort.

Water changes (what you mean by "every cleaning" I assume) should be weekly, and change half the tank.

Now, a side comment. Soft water fish like neons will have some issues with a pH at 8. But I want to see the GH as this is even more significant. And any attempt to adjust pH must first deal with the GH /KH or it will almost always fail.

Byron.


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## jimmadsen (May 5, 2013)

Home NO3 is 0.

I will stop on way home from work tomorrow to get a GH and KH test kit. Unless the API Master Test kit will check this and I just missed those instructions. Anything else I may want to look at getting while I am there? 

Water changes are now being done on Saturdays at 50% with a full vacuuming of gravel.

Will look into the floating plants as well as I am not a huge fan of putting the plants into the gravel. Next time I start the tank (next time we move) I want to plan different and put down better substrate than gravel. I will be researching that when the time comes so I can have a game plan.

I will not change the pH until I get the results of hardness and alkalinity. After all, they have been in the high pH water for quite some time now anyways. I do however want to get it down to a better range for all of the fish.

Thanks


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

jimmadsen said:


> Home NO3 is 0.
> 
> I will stop on way home from work tomorrow to get a GH and KH test kit. Unless the API Master Test kit will check this and I just missed those instructions. Anything else I may want to look at getting while I am there?
> 
> ...


If you are going to be adjusting water parameters like pH, then the GH and KH will have to be dealt with, so the API liquid kit (GH & KH) is worth getting. But you can get the numbers from the water folks so we know what you may be facing. GH/KH may be high, or it may not; the pH is related and adjusting the pH must include KH particularly, but having said that the pH can be high with a low GH/KH.

Regardless, on no account get any of the pH adjusting solutions. They probably won't work, depending on the KH, and they are never the best way to handle this anyway.

Did I mention my article on how all this relates?
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/.../water-hardness-ph-freshwater-aquarium-73276/


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## jimmadsen (May 5, 2013)

I checked with all 3 of my area pet stores (petco, pet smart, pet supplies plus) and none have the liquid test kit for GH and KH. They did have the test strips for about $5 a test, but I wanted the liquid. Got them coming for Thurs from amazon.

No new changes in the tank, all seem to be doing well. 

Good read on the water, thanks


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## jimmadsen (May 5, 2013)

Tank:

GH 5 drops using API liquid test meaning 89.5ppm
KH 7 drops meaning 125.3ppm

Tap:

GH 3 drops meaning 53.7ppm
KH 3 drops meaning 53.7ppm

I think I read the results the way I should


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

jimmadsen said:


> Tank:
> 
> GH 5 drops using API liquid test meaning 89.5ppm
> KH 7 drops meaning 125.3ppm
> ...


Is there any calcareous rock/gravel/sand in the tank? Any of these made from limestone, marble, dolomite, aragonite or crushed coral? Just wondering about the rise between tap (lower) and tank (higher).

Aside from that, this is still soft water, which is fine for all named fish except the guppy that should be in a bit harder water.

How are things going on the health front now?


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## jimmadsen (May 5, 2013)

Have this, Top Fin® Starry Night Aquarium Gravel - Gravel & Sand - Fish - PetSmart

About 40 pounds worth.

Health wise everyone seems to be doing ok, everyone seems to be very active and no signs of distress. The danios still have the discolorations though but are very active.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

jimmadsen said:


> Have this, Top Fin® Starry Night Aquarium Gravel - Gravel & Sand - Fish - PetSmart
> 
> About 40 pounds worth.
> 
> Health wise everyone seems to be doing ok, everyone seems to be very active and no signs of distress. The danios still have the discolorations though but are very active.


That link doesn't seem to be correct... if it says in the info or on the bag that it will not affect water chemistry, you're fine. Isn't much anyway, it is still soft water so fine for those fishies.

Keep up with your weekly water changes, and monitor the fish. Might be fine now. Let's hope so.


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## jimmadsen (May 5, 2013)

Lost an oto this morning, did not appear to be nipped on. Was sitting at bottom of tank upside down. May have just died.


Water change tonight along with testing again. Should I do anything about the pH?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

jimmadsen said:


> Lost an oto this morning, did not appear to be nipped on. Was sitting at bottom of tank upside down. May have just died.
> 
> 
> Water change tonight along with testing again. Should I do anything about the pH?


Not at this time certainly. When fish are recovering from something, the less stress the better, and fiddling with water params is stressful. Something is being added to your source water to raise pH [this is common in areas with soft water, I have it here] but we can look into this later.

Otos are not hardy fish, so I wouldn't jump to conclusions over losing one. Again, stability is the key, until we can be fairly certain things are settled.

Byron.


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## jimmadsen (May 5, 2013)

Did water change last night. A lot of the gravel was pretty clean when I vacuumed it.

Just tested water now, figured give it time to equalize the new water. Some of these test colors are hard to tell apart but this is the best I got:

pH 7.4 not sure why it dropped, did not do anything other than water change
Ammonia 0
NO2 0
NO3 5


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

jimmadsen said:


> Did water change last night. A lot of the gravel was pretty clean when I vacuumed it.
> 
> Just tested water now, figured give it time to equalize the new water. Some of these test colors are hard to tell apart but this is the best I got:
> 
> ...


No problems here.


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## jimmadsen (May 5, 2013)

hmm lost another neon last night. Found him bifurcated on the inlet for the filter.

Will do another change tomorrow and do tests again. Eventually things should settle down and I won't have to keep putting up posts!
Thanks


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