# Very Cloudy Water



## Fishoutofwater (Feb 5, 2012)

So here is the layout:

I have 19 fish in my 29g. 10 zebra danios, 5 bloodfin tetras, 1 pleco, 2 odessa barbs, and 1 betta.

The lights are on a timer and are on 10 hours a day then there is a blue led light for night time.

I had a Tetra Whisper filter on it while it was cycling then replaced it with an Aquaclea 70 and put the cartridge from the Whisper at the bottom of the Aquaclear to make sure most of the bacteria transferred(it has been cycled for a few weeks now) The old cartridge was quite dirty however. I put a piece of driftwood in the tank.

The water started getting very cloudy and I thought at first it was the driftwood so i removed it and boiled it to leach it. It has not gone back in since yet. I also did a 35% WC at this time. The problem still persisted.

I then thought it was the old cartridge. I removed it and rinsed off the Aquaclear media in tank water and did a 45% WC. None of these tactics have proven to help whatsoever. It's like I never did them. I didn't even notice a difference in the clarity of water after each WC. I do not see any physical signs of algae whatsoever.

The water slowly gets more and more cloudy. It looks green in the tank but when i siphon it out it is brown and i can't even see the bottom of the bucket. Please help. I'd like to know what could be the cause of this and what steps I need to take to resolve this issue(non chemically is preferred). Thank you.


----------



## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Fishoutofwater said:


> So here is the layout:
> 
> I have 19 fish in my 29g. 10 zebra danios, 5 bloodfin tetras, 1 pleco, 2 odessa barbs, and 1 betta.
> 
> ...


What type of substrate? Some colored gravels are dyed to produce the color and this dye can leach off after some time ,even after rinsing the @$^%$ out of it.
What type and how large of Pleco? 
These fish can produce tons of waste, grow too large for 29 gal, and also root around in substrate and stir up crud unless you are on time with the gravel vaccuming= (regularly) in unplanted aquariums.
Could also be small bacteria bloom if borrowed material did not provide enough bacteria for fish load and this should clear as the bacteria multiply (Few Days).
Would watch water paramter's for any ammonia spike,maybe feed a little less for a few days.
Could also run some fresh carbon in the filter for a few days as well.


----------



## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

In addition to above post,, and more pondering,, Brown water does not sound like bacteria bloom which is usually described as white,grey,or milky looking, but more like increased flow from filter, maybe stirring up crud from the substrate or wood still leaching tannins.
Green water, would maybe give me pause to reduce lighting period in duration and or intensity.
I would try water changes and carbon for a few days were it me.


----------



## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

Since it's brown and there was wood in the tank, it sounds like tannins that leach from wood. Short of using something like Seachem Purigen, I think several water changes in time are the only answer.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I'd suggest there may be more than one explanation, but it comes down to what you can actually see in the way of colour. You haven't mentioned how long the tank has been running, but from your info I'm assuming it is not new and has been set up a few months; correct me if that is a mistaken assumption.

The described "cleaning" of filter, etc. would or could produce a bacterial bloom, which would be whitish cloudiness, something like a thin fog. This is common when filters are cleaned as significant bacteria (and I'm talking many different bacteria besides the common only-considered nitrifying bacteria) are lost. Changing the substrate will do similar. In these cases, riding it out is the best, as the bacteria simply has to re-establish, and more and more water changes are detrimental and can make it even worse. Not normally harmful, just unsightly, though it sometimes will cause ammonia to rise.

The wood would suggest tannins, if a brown/yellow tint. Having removed the wood and performed a water change, this should not return, so that is the key here. Harmless if this is what is is/was.

Green suggests an algae bloom, caused by too many nutrients in the presence of light. You have a lot of fish producing waste in a 29g, and the light is on a long period. Plants are not mentioned, are there any? This would or should help if there are, but there is still a heavy organics load and the light (depending its intensity) may be too much.

One unrelated comment on the night blue light. This is fine for a short period after the main light is out, but there must be a period of complete and total darkness. Eight hours is usually suggested. This means no lights in the room or over the tank. This is crucial to fish, also to plants if you have any.

Byron.


----------



## Fishoutofwater (Feb 5, 2012)

Thanks guys for the quick advice. The gravel is a natural stone no dye and You are correct my tank has been up and running for a couple of months now. I sihponed the gravel pretty good and placed a blanket over the whole tank. Going to go black out for a couple of days and see how things go. Will let you guys know.


----------



## Fishoutofwater (Feb 5, 2012)

Also, what would be a good amount of fish for this 29g? Small tropical fish.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Fishoutofwater said:


> Also, what would be a good amount of fish for this 29g? Small tropical fish.


It depends upon the species. The maximum adult size obviously impacts how many, but as well the interactive behaviours and traits of each species. Compatibility covers many factors beyond behaviour. The water flow from the filter affects this, as does the light. And the environment (rocks, wood, plants, sand...).


----------



## Fishoutofwater (Feb 5, 2012)

Ok so this is night number 2 with no feeding and total blackout. I did a slight peek at the water and nothing has changed. Still as cloudy and green as ever. What are my options at this point please?


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

So the cloudiness is definitely green, rather than whitish, yellowish or brownish?

Are there live plants?

What exactly is the light (fluorescent or incandescant, number of tubes/bulbs, what type, wattage, etc)?

How often were water changes being done, and how much of the tank at each?

What water cnditioner are you using? And are any other substances going in the tank?

Sorry for all the questinos, but we need to know the data since various things can interact in different situations.


----------



## Fishoutofwater (Feb 5, 2012)

yes the cloudiness is for sure green.

there is one live plant that is fairly big.

it's an Aqueon 8,000k fluorescent, T8, 17watts, 24" long, just one tube.

I was doing water changes about every 5 days about 15%

I'm using Prime and that's the only chemical. Have Algae wafers, Tetra Flakes, and Freeze dried bloodworms for food. Only 1 or sometimes half a wafer per day, feeding once a day only what gets eaten in 2-3min. and bloodworms once a week.


----------



## Fishoutofwater (Feb 5, 2012)

1077 said:


> What type of substrate? Some colored gravels are dyed to produce the color and this dye can leach off after some time ,even after rinsing the @$^%$ out of it.
> What type and how large of Pleco?
> These fish can produce tons of waste, grow too large for 29 gal, and also root around in substrate and stir up crud unless you are on time with the gravel vaccuming= (regularly) in unplanted aquariums.
> Could also be small bacteria bloom if borrowed material did not provide enough bacteria for fish load and this should clear as the bacteria multiply (Few Days).
> ...


It's a Bristlenose Pleco and he's about 2 inches right now and yes my goodness he poops a lot lol.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Yes, all pleco are heavy on the bioload.

Green water (cloudy due to unicellular algae) is said to be caused by high nitrates, high phosphates and high ammonia/ammonium; these can go back and forth as the algae uses ammonia/ammonium and then switches to nitrates, etc. And this requires light, the more intense/longer duration the worse it gets.

Blackout for 4 consecutive days may clear it. But then the source has to be addressed or it will just return.

One plant is not sufficient to help in this. A planted tank would deal with ammonia/ammonium and likely phosphates, and nitrates would be very low. Light can be controlled for the plants, in intensity and duration.


----------



## Fishoutofwater (Feb 5, 2012)

Well it has been nearly a week since the blackout and nothing has changed whatsoever so i've given up and taken the blanket off and fed the fish. Could it be possibly be high phosphates in the water causing this? If so what are some steps to reduce the phosphate levels?


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Fishoutofwater said:


> Well it has been nearly a week since the blackout and nothing has changed whatsoever so i've given up and taken the blanket off and fed the fish. Could it be possibly be high phosphates in the water causing this? If so what are some steps to reduce the phosphate levels?


Can you post a photo of the tank? [Don't use the flash, this usually makes something like this harder to see.]


----------



## Fishoutofwater (Feb 5, 2012)

Here some pictures that I just took. Hopefully this helps you to help me to help the fish lol.


----------



## Savannah (Mar 2, 2012)

Have you changed the substrate recently because I had that happen on a smaller scale when i changed my gravel.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Yes, I'm thinking along similar lines. I know there is a green hue here and there, but I am mainly seeing this as whitish, which is a bacterial bloom. This would explain why the light blackout had no effect. A bacterial bloom simply has to clear on its own. More water changes only make it worse--unless you detect a rise in ammonia which can sometimes occur, then do a 1/2 water change--but otherwise regular weekly changes are sufficient. More plants, even simple floating plants, will help by using nutrients/organics. A decent vacuuming of the substrate would also help. Bactgeria blooms are organics-related; the increase in bacteria (which is what turns the water cloudy) is due to an increase in organics. Minimal feeding (alternate days, and not more than needed for the fish) is also good.

You can read more on the background and causes of bacterial blooms here, there is a section in the second part:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-articles/bacteria-freshwater-aquarium-74891/

Aside from a possible rise in ammonia, and maybe a shortage of oxygen (though I wouldn't expect that here), this is harmless to fish. Unsightly I know, but given time it will clear.

Byron.


----------



## Fishoutofwater (Feb 5, 2012)

After reading your article. How aggressive should i get with the vacuuming of the gravel? Also, what is the best way to "clean" my filter media in an Aquaclear? I know to use the tank water but do i just rinse it or can i squeeze the foam pad lightly, etc. Would extra carbon help? I just checked the Ammonia and it's still reading 0 so that's good. Thanks.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Fishoutofwater said:


> After reading your article. How aggressive should i get with the vacuuming of the gravel? Also, what is the best way to "clean" my filter media in an Aquaclear? I know to use the tank water but do i just rinse it or can i squeeze the foam pad lightly, etc. Would extra carbon help? I just checked the Ammonia and it's still reading 0 so that's good. Thanks.


In this case (with the cloudy water) you want to do a good cleaning, so push the siphon into the gravel all over where you can reach it; leave the area around the plant for a few inches out. Normally, when this clears up, a light vacuuming of the open gravel area is sufficient; I would get more substrate-rooted plants though, like some swords, Corkscrew Vallisneria, etc.

Filter media should be rinsed as often as necessary, meaning when it gets dirty. The more dirt pads and sponges collect, the more the flow is impeded. Rinsing weekly when you do the water change won't hurt.

Neither the deep gravel cleaning with the siphon nor the rinsing of media will remove bacteria. All bacteria is sticky, it adheres to surfaces in what we call a biofilm. Normal rinsing is not going to pull it off. Using chlorinated water will.

Carbon at this stage might help. I wouldn't normally use it with live plants, but if you have some it can't hurt for a week or two. I wouldn't buy it just for this though.

Byron.


----------



## Fishoutofwater (Feb 5, 2012)

Thank you so much for all of your insight. I took another picture for you to take a look at with the tank lights off. I will do a water change today because it has been 9 days since the last one and will thoroughly vacuum the gravel and rinse the media. Let me know what you think of the picture.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Well, the light is off...mg:
Let's see a photo after you do the cleaning. Be thorough.:BIGwinky:


----------



## Fishoutofwater (Feb 5, 2012)

Will do. I will do all of this tomorrow after work. Also, I just thought of this. Could the dye perhaps from the fake plants be leeching, is this a possibility?


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Fishoutofwater said:


> Will do. I will do all of this tomorrow after work. Also, I just thought of this. Could the dye perhaps from the fake plants be leeching, is this a possibility?


Not if they are made for use in an aquarium, but otherwise possibly. Though I'm still thinking bacteria from earlier info and photos.


----------



## Fishoutofwater (Feb 5, 2012)

Ok, whew, done. I vacuumed every squar inch of that gravel. I rinsed off the foam pad and carbon from the Aquaclear REAL good in clean dechlorinated well water. I scrubbed the glass even though it's clean lol. And i did a 30% WC as well. 

About 10 minutes after all this was done there was no difference whatsoever. A couple hours later, MAYBE a little difference but not too noticeable. This picture is the water i siphoned out during the WC. If that's not green then i'm 7 foot tall lol. What options do you suggest at this point? Give it more time(The filter is flowing 100%, i had it turned down a littler before), try another blackout, UV, Phosphate remover, add more live plants, etc? Thanks.


----------



## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

I ,might consider UV sterilizer were it me considering blackout brought no relief.:dunno:


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Yes, that is green. Here is what Steve Hamilton (to give credit) writes of this:

*Green water (algae bloom)* Beautifully made photo by Ron© .
This is the most common problem if the cloudy situation extends beyond 10-14 days. Note that "green water" is not always green in appearance! Since green water is the most common problem and the most difficult to solve the answer needs to reflect several options. The situation that causes GW (Green Water) is usually a combination of high nitrates, phosphates, and mixed in some ammonia/ammonium. Substrate disturbance is usually the culprit. What happens is the algae (GW form) will flourish off of the ammonia/ammonium and phosphate, remembering that algae can consume phosphate easier than plants because of their thin cell walls, the algae uses up the ammonia/ammonium and phosphate, but it doesn't go away...because algae can quickly switch with nutrient it scavenges...it moves to nitrates. So you can see why water changes will not rid a tank of GW. Nutrients can be reduced very low in GW and fairly quickly by the GW algaes, but they can scavenge other nutrients...iron and trace elements. So, it's very common for the GW to solve the situation that causes it to begin with, but that won't eliminate the GW, for the reasons I've allude to. Five methods exist to eliminate GW. Blackout, Diatom Filtering, UV Sterilization, Live Daphnia, and Chemical algaecides/flocculents. The first four cause no harm to fish, the fifth one does.
*Method No. 1* The blackout means covering the tank for 4 days, no light whatsoever is allowed into the tank during this time. Cover the tank completely with blankets or black plastic trash bags. Be prepared, killing the algae will result in dead decaying algae that will decompose and pollute the water. Water changes are needed at the beginning and end of the blackout time and ammonia should be monitored also.
*Method No. 2* Diatom filters can usually be rented from your LFS. This is my preferred method. Personally, I use my Magnum 350 w/Micron Cartridge coated with diatom powder. Diatom filtering removes the algae and doesn't allow it to decay in the tank. You do have to check the filter often, if you have a really bad case of GW the filter can clog pretty quick. Just clean it and start it up again. Crystal clear water usually takes from a few minutes to a couple of hours.
*Method No. 3* UV Sterilizers will kill free floating algaes. They also kill free floating parasites and bacteria. They also can be problematic for extended use in a planted tank, as they will cause the “breakdown” of some important nutrients. They are expensive and don't remove the decaying material from the tank, if you can afford to keep one they are handy to have around, though not as useful IMO as a diatom filter.
*Method No. 4* Adding live daphnia to your tank. This can be a bit tricky. First you need to insure that you are not adding other "pests" along with the daphnia. Second, unless you can separate the daphnia from the fish, the fish will likely consume the daphnia before the daphnia can consume all the green water.

[Ed: I left the last method (#5) out, since I do not condone harming fish no matter what the problem.]


----------



## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

Byron said:


> Yes, that is green. Here is what Steve Hamilton (to give credit) writes of this:
> 
> *Green water (algae bloom)* Beautifully made photo by Ron© .
> This is the most common problem if the cloudy situation extends beyond 10-14 days. Note that "green water" is not always green in appearance! Since green water is the most common problem and the most difficult to solve the answer needs to reflect several options. The situation that causes GW (Green Water) is usually a combination of high nitrates, phosphates, and mixed in some ammonia/ammonium. Substrate disturbance is usually the culprit. What happens is the algae (GW form) will flourish off of the ammonia/ammonium and phosphate, remembering that algae can consume phosphate easier than plants because of their thin cell walls, the algae uses up the ammonia/ammonium and phosphate, but it doesn't go away...because algae can quickly switch with nutrient it scavenges...it moves to nitrates. So you can see why water changes will not rid a tank of GW. Nutrients can be reduced very low in GW and fairly quickly by the GW algaes, but they can scavenge other nutrients...iron and trace elements. So, it's very common for the GW to solve the situation that causes it to begin with, but that won't eliminate the GW, for the reasons I've allude to. Five methods exist to eliminate GW. Blackout, Diatom Filtering, UV Sterilization, Live Daphnia, and Chemical algaecides/flocculents. The first four cause no harm to fish, the fifth one does.
> ...


Thanks Byron for sharing that. Very informative!


----------



## SEAWEED54 (Mar 8, 2012)

that is horrible , most likely cause over feeding , lack of vacuuming gravel with every water change , to much direct sun light , not changing filter often enough . 

recommendations 3/4 water change including a major gravel vacuuming , use a green scotch bright pad on glass , add a small amount of aquarium salt 1 rounded teaspoon per 5 gal (Not table salt) it will help kill algae I wouldn't be surprised if you have those small nasty snails it will help kill them too also maintain your PH , repeat all above in a week but this time only use 1/2 of the amount of aquarium salt aquarium salt avail at walmart and your LFS and just a FYI the aquarium salt is for fresh water tanks I have used it over 30 years never had any annoying snails or algae and fish are as healthy and happy as could be 
best of luck to you


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I would not add salt to a tank with soft water fish no matter what the reason; the stress this places on such fish is not worth the risk. Also, snails will help to prevent this, since they consume a lot of organics and quicken the breakdown process for bacteria. Snails (those little Malaysian Livebearing and common pond types) are the aquarist's friends.


----------



## Fishoutofwater (Feb 5, 2012)

Ok so should go to my LFS and pick up 2 or 3 more live plants tomorrow? Also should I add a snail or two (The Malaysian Livebearers?) A blackout and UV might solve the problem but I'm looking to solve the issue causing that problem. Thanks everyone for your timely and informative responses


----------



## Fishoutofwater (Feb 5, 2012)

Well I went on a 4 day trip to NC. I did a WC before i left and had the lights on only 4 hours a day and fed them before I left. When I got back, it was actually worse. I just don't understand that, how could it get worse. Would getting a phosphate remover help with this such as (Phos-x). Do I just add more plants? I know this is becoming a broken record and I apologize here but i'm almost at my wits end. Would it help if I removed 2 fish? (They are my cousins anyway)


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

While you were gone, were the lights on (and for how long) or off?


----------



## Fishoutofwater (Feb 5, 2012)

they were on for only 4 hours a day. I bought some Acurel F today for a last resort. Do LFS carry phosphate tests to test tap/fish tank water? If my tap water is high in phosphates what would you recommend? Phos-x? or another media? Would 2 more live plants help at all? I almost bought two today but figured I'd ask the master first ;-D


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Fishoutofwater said:


> they were on for only 4 hours a day. I bought some Acurel F today for a last resort. Do LFS carry phosphate tests to test tap/fish tank water? If my tap water is high in phosphates what would you recommend? Phos-x? or another media? Would 2 more live plants help at all? I almost bought two today but figured I'd ask the master first ;-D


The more plants the better, no matter what the problem. In this case, floating plants will be most helpful. First, the cloudy water is so bad it will block light from lower plants, so getting floating plants solves this problem. Second, the floating plants can assimilate CO2 from the air, which speeds up their carbon intake (critical). Third, they assimilate a lot of other nutrients fast fro the water, while releasing oxygen via the roots. Water Sprite is perfect, Water Lettuce, or some stem plants left floating like Hornwort, Cabomba, Wisteria.

On the phosphate, before wasting money on a test kit you may never use again, see if you can find the water data from the water supply people. Many now have a website with data posted, and phosphates may be included. Aside from any in the tap water, phosphates are introduced via fish food, so minimal feeding will deal with this aspect. Was nitrate tested? And ammonia?


----------



## Fishoutofwater (Feb 5, 2012)

Well the Acurel F hasn't done a dime after 2 days. Something is feeding this algae in the tank or in the water. Amm. is 0 and has been every time I test it. Nitrates are always normal between 5-30. I will purchase 2 more live plants tomorrow really hoping this works. Otherwise might have to look in to something a little more drastic/expensive.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Fishoutofwater said:


> Well the Acurel F hasn't done a dime after 2 days. Something is feeding this algae in the tank or in the water. Amm. is 0 and has been every time I test it. Nitrates are always normal between 5-30. I will purchase 2 more live plants tomorrow really hoping this works. Otherwise might have to look in to something a little more drastic/expensive.


The nitrate is a bit high so that may be related. More plants.


----------

