# Please HELP!!! My fishes are dying left and right.



## madhu (Dec 9, 2009)

I first started my 10 gallon aquarium in August 09. I cycled the tank with a betta and 3 neon tetras. After the tank cycled, I bought 2 more neon tetras. The after a week bought 4 guppies. Then moved Betta to a bowl and bought 1 platy. All was well till recently One of the guppy gave birth. I put the mama guppy in breeder box and it gave birth to 24 fry..Phew...

Then next day morning all the fry were dead.. 

Since then 3 adult guppies out of the initial 4 died.

I kept reading more and more on the internet and decided to keep only 3 guppies (2 femal and 1 male)

So I bought 2 more guppies to replace the dead ones and 1 platy to give company to the first platy I had.

I was not able to understand why so many fish died suddenly. Then I realized that my pH was too low. So I bought a pH adjuster (API pH up). 

I added a couple of drop every day and monitored the pH even 5-6 hours once. My pH kept going back to 6.0 (or may be lesser).

So I read up some more on internet and figured may be my tank has too much phosphorus (recently algae problem has started). While reading I also came across a document which said that gravel should not be more than 1/4 inch as this will provide a place for dirt to collect. So I removed a lot of gravel from my tank. And kept up the 20% water change every 3 days once. 

Day before yesterday my pH was 7.2 and today its back to 6.0. Now my tank has ammonia and today one guppy dropped dead. All fishes that have died so far has died for no apparent reason. I am guessing its due to pH shock.

My tap water pH is 7.2 and I use water conditioner.
I use API master test kit
My tank stats now is 

6.0 Ph
1 ppm Ammonia
0 nitrite
10 ppm Nitrate
1.0 ppm phosphate (i got a phosphate kit recently)

I dont know what to do... why has my tank come to pre cycle state? why does my pH keep falling?? my poor fish... they keep dropping dead 

PLEASE HELP!!!!


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## rrcoolj (Dec 5, 2009)

WOw im really sorry for your loss! First there is no need to adjust the PH. Unless I read wrong the Ph out of the tap is 6.0? That's fine for the fish you have and they might actually prefer it. A deep substrate won't kill your fish but you should clean it reguraly. So stop adjusting your Ph is my first bit of advice. Stability is key and the fish are perfet for your Ph level. That's the only conclusion I could come too.


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## madhu (Dec 9, 2009)

My tap water pH is 7.2 and my tank pH is 6.0 ( or lesser.. APIs lowest reading is 6.0) In all the places i read, the ph that was good for the fish was stated as 7.2 - 7.4. 

are you sure 6.0 is a good ph??? I thot it is too acidic. Anyway I will stop adjusting pH. Thanks for the suggestion.


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## madhu (Dec 9, 2009)

I first started my 10 gallon aquarium in August 09. I cycled the tank with a betta and 3 neon tetras. After the tank cycled, I bought 2 more neon tetras. The after a week bought 4 guppies. Then moved Betta to a bowl and bought 1 platy. All was well till recently One of the guppy gave birth. I put the mama guppy in breeder box and it gave birth to 24 fry..Phew...

Then next day morning all the fry were dead.. 

Since then 3 adult guppies out of the initial 4 died.

I kept reading more and more on the internet and decided to keep only 3 guppies (2 femal and 1 male)

So I bought 2 more guppies to replace the dead ones and 1 platy to give company to the first platy I had.

I was not able to understand why so many fish died suddenly. Then I realized that my pH was too low. So I bought a pH adjuster (API pH up). 

I added a couple of drop every day and monitored the pH even 5-6 hours once. My pH kept going back to 6.0 (or may be lesser).

So I read up some more on internet and figured may be my tank has too much phosphorus (recently algae problem has started). While reading I also came across a document which said that gravel should not be more than 1/4 inch as this will provide a place for dirt to collect. So I removed a lot of gravel from my tank. And kept up the 20% water change every 3 days once. 

Day before yesterday my pH was 7.2 and today its back to 6.0. Now my tank has ammonia and today one guppy dropped dead. All fishes that have died so far has died for no apparent reason. I am guessing its due to pH shock.

My tap water pH is 7.2 and I use water conditioner.
I use API master test kit
My tank stats now is 

6.0 Ph
1 ppm Ammonia
0 nitrite
10 ppm Nitrate
1.0 ppm phosphate (i got a phosphate kit recently)

I dont know what to do... why has my tank come to pre cycle state? why does my pH keep falling?? my poor fish... they keep dropping dead 

PLEASE HELP!!!!


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

First of Welcome to the Forum!
I'm sorry for you losses, but I have to agree with what you already suspected: This up & down in pH, specially these high swings are an ENORMOUS stress for the fish and that's more then likely what killed them.
Also yu're Ammonia, in a cycled tank shouldn't be past 0 max 0.25. So for the moment with the Ammonia this high, do a large water exchange for starers. However test your tap water first, make sure you have no ammonia coming from the tap IF you do > buy a water conditioner tomorrow that also removed ammonia and then do a large w/c.

You said your tap water has pH of 7.2 which would be great for the Guppy & Platy. SOMETHING in your tank lowers this to 6 > What do you have for decor, plants, Driftwood? What other chem's do you maybe use for the water, plant fertilzier etc?
Stop usuing this ph up&down drops, that obviously doesn't help and on top stresses your fish to death. Let's figure out what causes this in your tank and change the causeing factor rather then masking it with chem's.
If you have a API set, test your KH and post it back that may also be a reason that's making the pH bouncy.
Do you have live plants in the tank?
(Sorry to answer your distressed question with MORE questions - but I wanna know all facts to properly help you throught this terrible issue).


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## madhu (Dec 9, 2009)

I do appreciate you taking out the time to help me. Please dont apologize for asking questions, you are trying to help me.

I dont know what kh is. My master kit tests for ph ammonia nitrite and nitrate only. Phosphate test kit is an addition that i bought recently. I will buy a kh test kit first thing tomorrow morning. 

My tank contains java moss (covers the floor sparsely) and one small rock cave that i bought in petsmart. I used to have a gravel of 1 inch depth. But i recently reduced a great amount of gravel and now i have sparse gravel (i can see the floor here and there) . I think removing gravel removed the good bacteria I had and that is why ammonia is soaring now. Please correct me if i am wrong. 

No i dont have any driftwood. 

I use Prime water conditioner. the bottle says that it removes chlorine, chloramine, ammonia. Detoxifies Nitrite and nitrate. Provides slime coat. I dont measure it accurately when i add it to the new water, approximately 1 teaspoon everytime i add new water to the tank.

I am going to add pics of my aquarium to my profile. You can take a look at it. I forgot to mention one more detail, today morning when one of my guppy was dead, I also noticed that the pale yellow guppy I have had RED gills.... it was glowing red. I remember reading somewhere that this happens when ammonia levels are high. So tested water and found ammonia was 1 ppm. I am not sure if this is that high. But nevertheless I did a water change. After changing water i tested the water ph and it was 6.8. But again in the evening its come back to 6.0


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## stephanieleah (Oct 31, 2009)

I'd definitely keep on with the water changes until the ammonia levels go down. 1ppm of ammonia is quite high. If my ammonia goes over .25ppm then I am stressing.


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## madhu (Dec 9, 2009)

Okay, I did a water change in the morning. I will continue the water change everyday till ammonia levels come down. Thanks for the suggestion.


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Kh - Hardness. Do you have any chance to get to the store and get a hardness liquid test (API sells them too) they're about ~$5?

If anything rocks or gravel make soft water hard (like in my case in TN I have no hardness and would need to use dolomite etc to harden it up).
The amount of gravel like I said will IF ANYTHING (and aquarium gravel from the pet chains do NOT do this) if anything they'll make the water harder and with harder water come HIGHER pH (its a chain reactions, I'll spare you the details).
Generally ~2" gravel is needed if you're going for planted tank. Yes this will explain at least your ammonia spike. The beneficial/ needed bacteria is found in 2 places in your tank: The Gravel & The filter. Removing so much gravel can cause this easily, but a few larger w/c will eliminate this (just keep doing w/c and test the water till Ammonia drops back to 0 again).

Prime removes Ammonia too, so this in combo with the w/c will DEF help your tank (on this matter) right now, that's a quick & easy fix, so that's a relief for you there.
I'm sure if anything you're 'by eye sight' adding too much rather then too little, which is no harm really (I do the same, I don't break out the ML syringes for conditioner lol)

So that's all explained and you can easily take care of it over the next days.

What still get's me is HOW your pH from 7.2 goes to 6 IN the tank....Only things like Driftwood, Leave litter or peat will lower your Ph like this inside the tank - There's gotta be SOMETHING inside your tank or filter that lowers the pH and/ or "eats up" the hardenss coming from your tap.

The red grills are more then likely because of the high ammonia (toxic to fish, pretty much like dumping poison in the tank).

I think for the moment, once you get the ammonia controlled, the fish are gonna be OK. I'd not add any new fish meanwhile till we've figure out what's lowering your pH like this.

Do you maybe dose with CO2 or some special substare under the gravel...anything??

I all these yrs with tanks and trying to help in forums, I've gotta admit you're the FIRST to say the pH drops this far in the tank...Usually the issue is low pH from tap get's upped (by rocks etc) in the tank....but we'll figure it all out :-D


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

I just looked at your pictures, I can not see anything in there that would lower the pH like this....dang this is starting to bugg ME now lol

For the ammonia/ Nitrate matter, another thing that's VERY helpful in tank if live plants. I don't know if you ever considered any for yours (apart from the Java I have seen on the picture) but plants pretty much act as a bio-filter if you will. Now they won't take 1ppm Ammonia down to 0 over night, but they sure help a long term stable bacteria system.
(Just a general thought from my end).


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## madhu (Dec 9, 2009)

I am very happy to hear you say we will figure it out somehow. you know.. today morning when i saw my male guppy dead... i lost all hope. 

My has a carbon filter and no CO2 and nothing under the gravel. The gravel is from petstore so I dont think they will increase the pH.. if they do I will be very happy .

I have a phosphate level of 1. ppm. I read somewhere that phosphorus is a buffer which will try to maintain the ph. do you think 1.0 ppm will stop the tap water ph to impact the tank ph??? 

When algae started, i read lots of stuff on internet about phosphorus. Everywhere it was written that BIG w/c and doing it often will bring the phosphorus down. I have been doing it for some time now. Phosphorus kit reached me only today. So this is the first phosphorus reading. Is it possible for phosphorus to have been very high and have reduced now?

Until 1 week back, i was pretty confident that i had figured everything out. After the death today  i am stumped.


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Ah naw.....don't be upset, its know its sad loosing fish BUT we'll all figure it out with ya, get you (and your tank) on the right track and all will be fine (just need patience lol)
Phosphate (PO4) is created by too much food (which also can up your Ammonia) and fish poo  also ph stabilizers can up the PO4. So feed some less (won't hurt in your case anyway) do NOT use any of this ph UP any more (I think I said this in my first post already didn't i lol) and with the w/c this reading also will come down. And yes po4 in excess will cause alage growth (which agin PO4 is too much organic matter like leaf litter and fish you know what and too much food, lower these, do proper weekly w/c it does go down).

Just don't give up! We'll figure it out, and not just me, tehre's many knowledgeable people on here that will glady help you too until such day that the issue is resolved


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

First comment is not to be adding chemicals to the tank before you know the cause of the problem. This usually (as here) makes it worse.

Ammonia is not your problem. First, because at an acidic pH the ammonia changes to ammonium and this is basically harmless to fish. Second, using Prime detoxifies ammonia by changing it to ammonium, same result. So the ammonia/ammonium is not the cause of red gills or fish deaths as you have explained things.

As for the pH, it will lower in all aquaria due to natural biological processes unless there is sufficient carbonate hardness in the tap water and/or the tank water to buffer the pH. When you have the water tested for KH (either with an API test kit or take some tap water to the store and get the number of the KH) it will be clear. I suspect you have low KH in your tap water. If yes, we can fix that, but later.

I suspect the low pH killed the guppies. You have five neons and no mention of any of them dying; neons would love acidic water. Which is why I suspect the pH. However, they will not tolerate swings from 6 to 7.2 very long before they will die from the sheer stress, as Angel mentioned. Leaving the pH alone until all questions are answered and then using a safe method* if* one is needed will be better.

Removing the gravel was a mistake, it was not necessary and it removed bacteria. But we all learn from our mistakes, I've made them too. One thing I can't stress enough on this forum is not to jump to conclusions and start fiddling with an aquarium when something "appears" to be wrong. Patience is a virtue. Many of these "problems" sort themselves out, or can be sorted out once we know all the facts.

Let's get the KH number and go from there. In the interim, do not add any pH adjusters to the tank, and be careful with water changes. The difference in pH between the tank and the tap water makes water changes risky; I would not do more than 25% once a week until this is sorted out.


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## madhu (Dec 9, 2009)

I went to petsmart and they dont have a kH test kit. I am going to go one more petstore near by. If I dont find it there then I have look for some fish specific store. I will keep you all updated on this.

I got live meter for ph ammonia and temperature. Just to keep an eye on all three. 

What I understand so far is, at very low pH i dont have to worry too much about ammonia so i should not be doing big water changes often. 

do you think i should add the gravel back?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

madhu said:


> I went to petsmart and they dont have a kH test kit. I am going to go one more petstore near by. If I dont find it there then I have look for some fish specific store. I will keep you all updated on this.
> 
> I got live meter for ph ammonia and temperature. Just to keep an eye on all three.
> 
> ...


Will Petsmart (or the other store) do water tests? If yes, take them a sample of your tap water (we need to know the tap water KH) and have it tested for KH, and get the specific number so we will know what we're working with.

The ammonia is not an issue so you don't need to do more than the normal weekly pwc with respect to ammonia; if this is something else, you may need to. But not due to ammonia.

The gravel is up to you, what you want in the tank; you don't have plants so it is purely aethestic. I would certainly have an inch or more and it is not a problem to vacuum it during the weekly partial water change. If you do this you will not have issues due to bacteria in the gravel. And there are plenty of good bacteria in the substrate.


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## madhu (Dec 9, 2009)

I finally found tetra test for kH in a small petstore. and the results are bad

my tank has 1/2 (0.5) dH (or lesser as i never saw blue even in the first drop with 10 ml tank water)

my tap water has 1.5 dH (took 3 drops in 10 ml water to change blue to yellow)

Is this the source of problem in my tank???


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Yup, that's why your pH keeps bouncing like this. 
Can you get your hands on crushed coral or dolomite - That will up your hardness and in doing so will provide a MUCH more stable pH. 

Now the problem is: The water your tap has is PERFECT for you Neon's - Just not for any other fish....So if I was in your shoes (and that's obviously up to you) I'd set up a 2nd tank simply with tap water for the Neon's. 
Then for all other guys up the hardness in the tank and they will be happy.
In general: I'd personally add plants as they'll help a stable eco -system in the tank (so less headache for you and no need for all these various chems you had)

If you chose to ulter your water: Please do not use chemicals they'll make it drop & rise too fast (and you already seen where this leads to). Adding types of rocks that will up your KH and so with stabilize your pH is much safer (and I'm sure Byron will comment on this as well, he's went by this method for many yrs).

I suspected it was your KH yesterday, which really is good in a way...Cause if you'd have come back now and told us your KH was like 6-7 then I'd need to get digging in the books here about a mystery lol

You already won the battle half way now, knowing what's going on and that you have fish that have entirly different needs. Now you can get to work, or also alternativly exchange the fish for others that will thrive in your water


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## madhu (Dec 9, 2009)

You are perfectly correct!! my tetra seems all happy and healthy. Guppies are the ones that are having a tough time. I have red mickey mouse platy.. so i cant tell if their gills are red or not. And they continue to eat well when i feed them. 

One of my guppy is not eating well. is this also due to low kh ph and high ammonia?

I dont know if the petsmart near my home has crushed coral or dolomite... i will go there tomo morning and check. If they dont have it.. i will hunt it in other stores that i visited today. If i dont get it anywhere i will have to order online. let me see...


and i am feeling much better firstly because i have support here that you guys provide me. So far i felt very much alone... and secondly finally some diagnosis...  

Thanks so much to you Angel and Byron!!!!!!!


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Any Livebearers such as Guppy, Platy Molly etc will simply be stressed out with the water the way it is right now, kinda like a shock if you will like if you were to fly in the middle of the FL summer into a blizzard in the Rockies, sorta like that 
Now if you leave the Neon's in the tank with them, you will soon find the opposite issuse that all others are ok BUT the Neons.

Crushed Coral you should be able to find at the store, dolomite more then likely at the home store... and you won't need much mayb elike 2-3 cups to add bit by bit into the tank/ filter.
Another thing that up's your hardness (which I learned the hard way on a totally different matter) look at the outdoor building supplies at your home store for stuff called "Paver sand" its really not sand but rather a bag full of different color & sized gravels, wash that stuff out (ideally outside) to get the fine sand out and keep the gravel rocks to either add to your filter (if you can/ have room) or get a sock or alike to fill some in and hang it in your tank (just use very little, this stuff can tuen water with no hardness at all to liquid concreate in 1 day lol)

We're glad to help any time! With all the folks on here - I guarantee you whatever problem comes up at least 1-2 folks had been there & done that and know how to fix it


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Oh hey one more idea..when you're at the store check the substrate for "African cichlid tanks" and read that lables I wanna say this also up's the hardenss (which is what cichlids need but can be "missused" in your case too)


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

I was just searching for more ideas what rocks you could use: Limestone is said to also harden your water, you're only like 4 hrs from me, so I bet ya you'd have Limestone laying around there somewhere outdoors that you can use. Just hammer it up in small pieces and again add into filter or a sock in the tank.


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## madhu (Dec 9, 2009)

Limestone... interesting!!!!

If i dont get crushed coral or dolomite... i am going fishing for limestone in my locality 

meanwhile, i remembered that i had a gravel bag which gave a disclaimer that the gravel contained may increase hardness. so i opened up that gravel bag and put half an inch of it in my aquarium. I was anyway planning to increase the gravel substrate. So thought it might not hurt.

I will keep you updated on what I find tomorrow in pet stores.


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## madhu (Dec 9, 2009)

I was looking up both crushed coral and dolomite on amazon (just in case nothing else works)

I came across 
*Dolomite Lime 4 lbs*

in the soil fertilizer section


Amazon.com: Dolomite Lime 4 lbs.: Home & Garden

Is this something that will work? If it will, I can check gardening stores as a last resort.


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Now with the stuff posted, you'll find that at the homestore: But read the label! Either get something that's organic and/ or since its for gardening, make sure there's nothing else in there like Miracle grow fet's etc 
Anything you'd wanna look at has got to be rich on calcium to avoid the acid that's currently there and harden the water - So what most fish keeping hobbyists AVOID to not have in the tank, that's what you'd want.
Its easy to test if whatever you get is rich on calcium or not: Either use your NO2 Reagen 1 or Vinegar that you hopefully have in the house. Drop some on the XYZ you find today if its fuzzing & bubbling up real nice - That's what you want (its a chem reaction between the acid from the vinager and the calcium). Normally this test is done to know what not to put in the tank - But works for your case too 
Dang I wish you were closer to me, I have a whole bag stuff sitting outside you could use right now to get the hardness up :-(


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

madhu said:


> I was looking up both crushed coral and dolomite on amazon (just in case nothing else works)
> 
> I came across
> *Dolomite Lime 4 lbs*
> ...


 
*No, don't use this in an aquarium.* 

You want plain crushed dolomite, crushed coral or marble chips. You can add these in with the gravel substrate, or preferably in the filter because then you can adjust the amount to get the hardness/pH where you want it. Once mixed in the substrate, you need to pull the tank apart to remove it. And limestone probably won't be adequate; in my experience limestone dissolves less that the other rock substances.

But before all that, consider what fish you want. Livebearers (all of them) need slightly basic (alkaline) water, some hardness and pH above 7.0. All other fish (except rift lake cichlids obviously) will be very happy with soft slightly acidic water. So consider what fish you want and plan. Many aquarists struggling with hard water would love to be in your position. The variety in soft water fish is astounding.

Byron.


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Non of the mentioned stuff was ever discussed to be used as substrate, it was discussed to be either added to the filter or in a sock (or alike) hanging in the tank of hers.
FYI - Its not about choosing what fish she wants, she's already got Livebearers (Platy & Guppy) and Neon Tetra's.


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## madhu (Dec 9, 2009)

Hi guys... good and bad news... 

remember i told one guppy had red gills and was not eating well. today morning it was dead   

About crushed coral..

I went to many stores today... every one had crushed coral in huge bags costing somewhere betwenn 20 - 25 bucks. One of the fish store "Marine and Tropical Fish" suggested that I can use Bone rock which they had. I bought 3 rocks of these as they were pretty inexpensive. I am not sure if this will help. 

If this wot help, I can anytime go to pet smart (very close to my place) and get the crushed coral bag.

Please let me know if this will help. 

And yes, I already have 5 tetras 1 guppy (2 yesterday) and 2 platy.


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Are you talking about these white rocks with wholes in them right!?
I don't know how much calcium or not they'd give off to harden your water - Did you the the vinegar test to see if they "fuzz"?
To be honest with you: Since you only got 1 guppy & 2 platy left, why don't you see if your LFS would take them and give you a better price on stocking up your Neon's there - They'd love your water as it is from the tap and you'd not have to go through all this hassle. 
And with these rock (or other stuff) once you do get the water right for the 3 guys you have left - Then you'll start having issues with your Neon's cause they will not tolerate this hard water, so be prepared they then may pass away on you slow or quick...


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## Fusion MK (May 25, 2009)

I believe your problem was that you put the Prime water conditioner into the water. Usually water conditioners that do e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g also kill off your cycling bacteria. Cycling bacteria also help stabilizing the ph. So check your tank again. My advice is to stop using the Prime water conditioner and try to cycle your tank again


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## madhu (Dec 9, 2009)

Yes I did the test with NO3 reagent 1. It did bubble but that too fast. 

I have attached the picture of my aquarium with the three bone rocks.

Meanwhile, I couldn't control myself and got the crushed coral as well. how much should I added (in a sock) to a 10G tank? 

And about the choice between live bearers and tetra... I love my platy and guppy :-(. Infact I loved Molly too, some day when I get a bigger tank I was planning to get molly. Now I am thinking more about getting a 5 G tank for the tetras and have all live bearers in my 10G tank. That way I can add Mollies as well. These are all plans for future once this tank stabilizes. Lets see....


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## madhu (Dec 9, 2009)

Small correction

* The bone rock bubble but not fast enough to call a fuzz


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Then I'd def suggest to find a solution for the Tetra before you loose them upping the hardness. If I would have another trip to the Airport down there I'd stop by and take 'em...but I'm not up for another day trip for a while now  (Atlanta traffic can really kill ya)

You had your KH reading from yesterday w/out the rock in there correct?
Test in the AM which will then give you a 12hrs span and see how much if any it went up.
Adding Coral I'd then determine off of that. If nothing measurable happened I'd start with a ~1/2 cup coral and up it a little bit each day till you notice a rise in hardness, but I'd add no more then 1 cup to the tank (well in a sock or alike in the tank, so you can easily pull it out if its rising too far). I'd measure 2x day to see how its rising.


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## madhu (Dec 9, 2009)

aahh.. I agree with you on Atlanta traffic.. I brave it everyday 

Thanks for the idea.. i will check the kH and pH tomorrow morning. I have a question. Initially Byron mentioned that at low pH levels Ammonia is not a problem. Now I do have ammonia in my tank. When I raise my kH (there by hoping to raise pH) will the current ammonia levels cause to problem to the survivors that I have???


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## TRIGGERMAN (Dec 2, 2009)

50% water change,add a good amount of aquarium salt and that will help reduce nitrates,about 2 teaspoons should suffice


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Lord no! Please do NOT add salt to the tank, that'll be a clean cut kill for the Tetra's!
Just keep up your regular w/c, if you make another large one now despite your readings going down already, you'll also remove the water that's (hopefully) hardened up over night some and that's obviously not what you want to replace it with more soft tap water.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

madhu said:


> aahh.. I agree with you on Atlanta traffic.. I brave it everyday
> 
> Thanks for the idea.. i will check the kH and pH tomorrow morning. I have a question. Initially Byron mentioned that at low pH levels Ammonia is not a problem. Now I do have ammonia in my tank. When I raise my kH (there by hoping to raise pH) will the current ammonia levels cause to problem to the survivors that I have???


Fist off, you are doing things that will definitely alter the water chemistry to some extent, so *be careful.* Rapid changes could kill the fish, or at the very least stress them to the point they are susceptible to other internal and external problems. These things have to be done slowly.

I've no idea the extent towhich that white rock may affect hardness. I would not add crushed coral until this has sat for a couple weeks to guage the effect, with hardness readings daily at first.

Second, subsequent posts have made a couple of very inaccurate suggestions. Prime is not going to affect the tank stability (nitrification cycle). Second, salt is not going to help, and it does nothing on nitrates. Salt will counter nitrite, but one has to assess the other ramifications of using salt beforehand

Third, my earlier comments on deciding what fish were intended to point out that you cannot keep fish of differing water parameters in the same tank and expect all to be healthy. These fish come from completely different habitats. If you could get the hardness and pH to the point where it results in a slightly basic pH (slightly above 7) the existing fish would probably be fine. But this has to be done gradually over a few weeks. And you need to decide what fish in future you want--if livebearers, then work towards that and forget more characins that will never be totally happy (=healthy) in such an environment.

Byron.

Edit: Forgot the ammonia question, sorry. Yes, this can be a problem. The ammonia produced by fish changes to ammonium in acidic water, but if that water changes to basic (alkaline) the ammonium changes back to ammonia. However, using Prime and similar detoxifying products changes the ammonia to ammonium in basic water. However, another reason to avoid too rapid a change. B.


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## Oldman47 (Sep 7, 2007)

The 6.0 pH is not the thing killing your fish, it is the 1.0 ppm of ammonia. I would do a couple of massive water changes on the tank and get the ammonia under control. With tap water at a pH of over 7.0, that should also help bring the pH up a little and get your biological filter working right again. At values below about 6.2 of pH, the biological filter's action will stall.


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## madhu (Dec 9, 2009)

Ok todays readings are as below

KH - may be 0.5 dH (i tested with 10 ML and first drop almost was colorless or a pale blue, second drop a pale yellow)

pH - 6.4

Ammonia - 0.25

Nitrite - 0

Nitrate - 10

As you can see I am not sure if the bone rock increased the hardness but the pH seems to gone up from 6.0 to 6.4. can a rock increase just the pH and not raise the kH?? If yes, I want to remove this rock. Moreover, pH change from 6.0 to 6.4 in almost 23 hours is not healthy right?? should i just remove 2 out of 3 rocks? or let them continue...??

Ammonia has definitely reduced... from 1.0 on wednesday to .25 today. Should I do a water change today??

Also.. Ammonia has reduced from 1 to .25 but nitrate has not changed at all... how is this possible??

Byron, I did notice the 2 posts that were misleading... thanks for addressing it.

Like I mentioned before I am planning to get a 5G for my tetra and keep all livebearers in 10G. 

May be sometime this week itself I might get it as I realize that raising the kH might impact tetra right away and I cant wait for this tank to stabilize.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

This is an identical thread (issue-wise) to http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-aquariums/please-help-my-fishes-dying-left-33595/ in the Freshwater section. But before dealing with combining them, some comments on the two responses to correct some misinformation.

First on the ammonia, at a pH of 6 ammonia is actually ammonium and this is harmless to fish. Doing massive water changes with tap water that has a pH on the basic/alkaline side could be death to the fish. As the water in the tank becomes less acidic and gets basic/alkaline, the ammonium changes back into ammonia which will harm the fish and if sufficient could kill them. Not to mention the shock of a relatively quick pH fluctuation from 6 to 7.2 which will at the least stress the fish and possibly cause severe internal damage and death. Each degree in pH (from 6 to 7 for example) represents a ten-fold change in acidity, and that is very significant.

Second on the pH for livebearers. A pH of 6 is not recommended for livebearers that need more hardness in the water to be healthy. The pH by itself is not so much the problem as is the lack of hardness. Livebearers require water that has mineral in it, calcium and magnesium creating some hardness, and the pH will normally be above 7 as a result. From the other thread it is known that the hardness in the tap water in this case is minimal, which is why the pH in the tank drops to 6 due to the normal biological action. The advice in the other thread from several members to correct the problem can't all be repeated here.

Byron.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

madhu said:


> Ok todays readings are as below
> 
> KH - may be 0.5 dH (i tested with 10 ML and first drop almost was colorless or a pale blue, second drop a pale yellow)
> 
> ...


The pH and KH are connected, so it may be due to a slight rise in KH (hardly discernable with our test kits reading in parts per million) caused by the rock. Without knowing what this rock actually is, and anyway not be a geologist, I can't answer more.

A pH rise of .4 in 24 hours won't hurt. In my planted tanks there is a natural diurnal shift in pH equal to this every 24 hours back and forth, as occurs in nature. I'm not aware of any problems for fish with this. Let's hope you're on the right track; time will tell. 

I assume you are not doing daily water changes; I wouldn't, as this will cause continual fluctuation in pH and the aim is to slowly raise it over a period of time. The tetras won't have a problem with this, and provided it is not much above 7.2 in the end they should manage--but only if it occurs over time.

Nitrate should remain fairly constant, unless something occurs to affect the biological stability in the tank. 

As nitrite is zero, I would not do a water change; if nitrite remains zero, regular weekly pwc is adequate. The ammonia is not an issue, Prime is handling it.

Byron.


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## madhu (Dec 9, 2009)

Thanks for the clarification. I did a water change on Wednesday. I will wait till next Wednesday to do 20% water change. I will do a water test again tomorrow.


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

What test kit are you using - Sure you use 10ML of water? Both I had always used 5ML (also the API I have now) just to be sure 
It is increasing & slowly, which is what you'd want, cause if it would have come back rock solid after 1 night, its safe to assume you'd have woke up to dead fish.
Pers I'd give it another day & retest again, then depending on it add the crushed coral you gotten.

I'd not do w/c neither with these readings

What'll help ya for setting up a tank for the Tetra: Use filter media from your existing 10G and "wash" it out in the new tank and put it back in your filter, that way you're adding some beneficial bacteria to the new Tetra tank at least (makes for quicker move in ready home for them guys).


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## madhu (Dec 9, 2009)

Thanks for the tip on setting up 5G. I was planning on moving some of my current gravel to the 5G... for the same reason of moving bacteria. I did not think about filter initially and now i will try that as well.

I use tetratest for kH. The testtube (i dont know what else to call it, its rectangular and tall) has 5 10 and 15 ml lines... The test kit suggests 5 ml and if more accuracy is needed 10 ml. 1 drop = 1 dH in 5ML and 1 drop = 0.5 dH in 10 ml...


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## madhu (Dec 9, 2009)

I am also planning to add some plants to both 10G and 5 G.

What will be the best time? wait till 10G and 5G both are stabilized or can I add now? If I can add now, what is a good plant for a beginner (I already have java moss).


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

When you test 2mrw do it with 5ml - To help ya see the blue-yellow swing better do it on a windowsill or close by a window with a white sheet paper/ paper towel underneath (to help ya see better  I had Tetra before as well and would be worried it throws the results off - Which it may or may not, I really don't know, I'd try it.

Yes gravel and/ or filter media both works, I just always used the filter as all my plants were so heavily planted I'd have torn it up getting gravel outta there 

For the 5g add plants right from the start, will help the new set up tremendously.
For the 10g its really up to you if you do this now or later, whatever fits your time & Budget.

In case you're running into the same problem then me in the greater TN/GA area...here's where I get my plants due to the non-selection at stores Sweet Aquatics


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## madhu (Dec 9, 2009)

Today's readings

kH - 1 dH (with 5 ml, the first drop itself was yellow, so I tried with 10 ml, the first drop was a clear blue and then the second drop was a clear yellow)

pH - 7.0 (yippee its raising )

Ammonia - 0.50 (increased from yesterday... :-( )

Nitrite - 0

Nitrate - 10

Phosphorus - 0.25

I am not sure why Ammonia is raising again..  I have not even been feeding the usual 3 times a day.. i have been feeding only 2 times a day)

I have some questions...
So will these rocks continue to raise the pH?? or will it stop by itself at some point??
:shock:
What is a good kH for the long term??

I want the pH to stay at 7.0 - 7.2 (till I get my 5G for tetras) as I read somewhere that this is a pH that is comfortable for both tetras and the live bearers. Please correct me if I am wrong.


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Feeding once a day or every 2nd day will be fully sufficient.
No the rocks will raise to point X and then stops, they can only give of so much.
I'd find a KH of at least 4 but rather 6 ideal IF you wanna keep your Guppy , Platy & Co
I'd give the rocks at least 1 week and then add the coral you also gotten.

The pH is really not the issue, as your water is, its perfect for the Tetra's - Just not for the Guppy - But when its starting to get prefect for the Guppy (higher KH) then its no good for the Tetra any more, like discussed before.
So ideally adding the crushed coral and going "full force" on hardening your water you'd ideally wanna do after you moved the tetra's out.


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## madhu (Dec 9, 2009)

Hurray... i got a 5G tank yesterday and have set up the tetras nice and comfy.... :-D

I got 2 new plants for my 10G tank Gold Ribbon and Peacock Fern. I want to make sure I can maintain simple plants before trying my hand at fancy ones.

Today's readings are as below

kH - 1.5 (steadily increasing :-D)
pH - 7.2 (steadily increasing :-D)
Ammonia - 1.0 (steadily increasing :-()
Nitrite - less than 0.25 but more than 0 (I guess my tank is cycling)
Nitrate - 10 (same as before)

I am feeding only twice a day and very little. Even then Ammonia is increasing. At 7.2 pH, isnt 1.0 Ammonia very high??? should I do a water change? If I do a water change that will reduce the hardness of water. But pH of tap water and tank water is same now. So should I do a water change or not?

I see some algae formation in the walls. Like small bushes, horizontally attached to walls. its there in many places small spots. java moss also has some of the algae on it here and there... should I be concerned?


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Def do a w/c with the Ammonia this high!!! Prep your exchange water as normal and maybe hang a sock in there with like 2-3 cups crushed coral for few hrs to increase the tap water hardness.
Algae often begins growing when the NO's go up. so I'd not worry too much about this right now.
I just do not get why your Ammonia & NO's are going up like this now, others then your tank cycling AGAIN. You hadn't washed your filter or anything have you? Just keep on doing w/c with a good conditioner until its down to 0 again, harder water won't help the fish anyway if the Ammonia keeps rising.

How as for the hardness: is that only with the white rocks in there or have you also already added crushed coral?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

In my opinion, the pH and hardness are rising too quickly. On Dec 12 pH was 6.4 and in three days it is 7.2, and KH has gone from .5 to 1.5. Were it me, I would want both to remain exactly where they now are; but the relatively quick increase suggests something is significantly altering the water chemistry, and there are (unless I'm mistaken) fish in this tank.

Ammonia is now toxic, unlike previously when it was ammonium. And algae will be more common in water with a higher pH and hardness.

I would remove some of the rock or whatever was added to raise the hardness. I cautioned before about this, and will say no more.

Byron.


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