# water quality and water change



## jamal6008

Hi

I've had a 230L aquarium for about 8 months now. The aquarium has reasonable amount of live plants.Over time the fish had a lot of fry so the biological load of my tank has increased with time but it seems like things have been okay. After a very long time I just tested the water and got the results: 

ammonia 0.25 ppm
nitrite 0 ppm
nitrate 0 ppm
pH 7-7.8 
Water temperature: 25.5C

I've previously not had time to do weekly water changes and have stuck to big monthly water change. I was wondering that now that I have more time should I do weekly water changes or just leave things as they are if water conditions are fine? I want my tank to be as self-sustainable as possible.


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## corina savin

How long after a water change did you measure this ammonia?


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## jamal6008

It's been 10 days. I also use liquid plant supplement


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## corina savin

Ammonia right after a water change might signal cloramines or even...ammonia in your tap water.
Some liquid fertilizers also have ammonia. I have a bottle of "Nitrogen" plant supplement by Seachem. It says on the label that it has half and half Potassium nitrate and Ammonia (in a form that is not dangerous to the fish)


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## jamal6008

Yup I thought that might be the case. But I am sure 0.25 ppm is not a big deal. It's only just after 0 level. Good thing is that there are no nitrites and nitrates right? What about water change duration?


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## corina savin

I'll rather have nitrates than ammonia or nitrites. 
Not big deal unless it persists. A properly cycled tank should clear it fast. I would keep an eye on it. There is no safe level for ammonia.
What tests are you using? The pH of 7-7.8 is quite a range...


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## jamal6008

Yeh I'll do the test again in few days. I wasn't sure about the pH because I am using API test kit and the colour scheme is a bit strange which makes it very hard to tell the pH. So I decided to put an estimated range instead...


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## jamal6008

Right I found a dead fish (molly) this morning. It has been a very long time since a fish died in my tank. It wasn't an adult fish but I would say it was just over half the size of an adult fish.

I have not tested the water again yet but I have a suspicion that it wasn't due to water condition. I am wondering could lack of oxgen cause a fish to die? I have my tank filled with fish to the max if not overcrowded and a lot of live plants which means at night time there is a lot of oxygen being consumed. 

Although I have an external filter that does break the water surface really well with its flow. I also leave the lid of the hood open all the time.


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## corina savin

Lack of oxygen will kill all your fish, not just one. Oxygen levels are lower but not zero before light are on. In heavily planted tanks, you can see fish at the surface, closer to air because of lower oxygen levels. Plants experts (with CO2, high light and tons of fertilizers) use airstone to bubble air at night. Again, to provide oxygen to plants (not fish). The loss of CO2 in this case doesn't matter, more will be injected in the morning.


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## jamal6008

So do you think its worth buying an air bubble? I have also noticed strange behavior in some fishes. Its not in all of them but in some of them, they just seem to stay still at random places of the tank and not move at all. Sometimes it would be in corners or sometimes even in the middle of the tank.


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## corina savin

Airstone in planted tank is a long controversy. I, for one, don't have any. It will drive more precious CO2 out than will bring oxygen in. If you ask me, no!
About fish that don't move much...I don't know. And when I don't know what's wrong with my fish, I always do a large water change. You can never be wrong by doing that (assuming it's not the first water change in months....)


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## Absntmind

"nitrate 0 ppm"

Nitrates shouldn't be 0 in a cycled tank.


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## jaysee

Absntmind said:


> "nitrate 0 ppm"
> 
> Nitrates shouldn't be 0 in a cycled tank.



Depends entirely on the bioload of the tank and the degree to which the tank is planted. It's very easy for a cycled betta tank to have 0 nitrates. Too, some people actually run Into a problem with Cyanobacteria because their nitrates are so low.


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## jamal6008

My university work load is driving me crazy and this is really bad time for fish tank to start acting up. Another fish was found dead  I am going to do a full water test later today after my exam, both before and after I do a water change and come back with results.


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## jamal6008

Okay I just tested the aquarium. Results are very similar to last time.

Ammonia 0.25 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate 0-5 ppm

I don't understand if water conditions are fine than why did 2 fishes die? Why do other fishes still seem to be hiding/staying still most of the time?

I am going to do a water change.


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## corina savin

That ammonia should not be there a week later. Either the plants or biofilter should have cleared it.
I would test ammonia against tap water or another tank water (if you have any). That's what I do with nitrates. I test at least 3 tanks at once and I compare the color side by side. I probably have a crappy color chart, I don't see the difference (looks a lot darker if touch the vial against the plastic card).
Now: having zero across ammonia, nitrite, nitrate does not mean perfect water condition. There are a lot more in the water that can go wrong and we don't have tests for everything. People realized they have soap, chlorine, nicotine, air fresheners, hand lotion, nail polish, leaching decorations unsafe for tank, electric shorts, etc. I know its not your case. What I mean is that perfect nitrogen cycle is not all.
Again. I suggest a water change (don't forget the de-chlorinator). Let me know


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## jaysee

Agreed, there's more to "clean" water than just ammonia, nitrite and nitrate - lots of things can harm your fish for which you simply can't test, which is why ANY time the fish start acting weird a water change should be the first thing you do. Even before starting a thread here 

And along the same lines - there are tons of reasons why fish die, many of which can have nothing to do with the water.


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## jamal6008

Thanks for the reply guys. With regards to ammonia levels, I put the plant supplements in every day so if supplements is the reason why its high it will not go away whether its a week or 3 weeks.


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## jamal6008

Update:

I just did 40% water change and cleaned the glass (got rid of algae etc). I didn't forget the de-chlroinator  

I found two more dead fish while I was cleaning the tank. They weren't visible before but somehow came floating to the surface after I took water out. One of the fish was full adult size neon tetra and second seemed like a few months old molly. 

I am going to test the water after few hours just giving time to tank to settle down. I have not put any plant supplements today. I am planning on doing another 40% water change in a weeks time.

Anything else I can do or any comments on this?


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## jamal6008

Test results after water change:

pH: 7.5
Temperature: 26C
Ammonia: Somewhere between 0-0.25 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 0 ppm


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## corina savin

When you are done with your exams, I invite you to do some reading on "fish pheromones". Just google it. It will give you a reason to do regular water changes despite "perfect water conditions" according to nitrogen compounds.
Very interesting, indeed. There are some good, well designed studies (something we desperately need in our hobby) that are using fish pheromones in a way to attract and combat invasive species like sea lamprey in North American Lakes. Its science at its best.


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## jamal6008

Okay  I'll look into that.

For now, I was thinking since I have a fluval 406 external filter they sell ammonia remover media for my filter. Shall I buy that?


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## corina savin

No. Just remove the dead fish. They are your source of ammonia.


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## jamal6008

Yeh, I removed them all yesterday. But behavior of some of the fishes still seem odd and I don't want anymore to die. The ammonia level is still not really 0. Should I do another 40% water change in few days?


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## beaslbob

Water changes will limit but not prevent build ups of parameter changes.

For instance, say your tank is building up say nitrates at one ppm/day and you do a 10% water change every 10 days with 0 nitrate water. The tank will build up to 100ppm just before a water change drop down to 90 ppm after the water change and then build up to 100ppm before the next change.

What you need to do IMHO is consume the nitrates completely so they are always 0. That way the tank just takes care of itself even with no water changes. In fact, once that point is reached, water changes can only degrade the tank.

I use plants to balance out and stabilize the tank and then just replace evaporative losses.

Plants also biolaccumulate all types of stuff like heavy metals like copper as well.

But that's just me and my .02


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## jamal6008

I completely agree with using plants to do that. My tank is also very well planted which is why I have 0 ppm for both nitrite and nitrate. I am not entirely sure what has caused the ammonia spike, maybe the dead fish or something else. I really want to get this to zero because I know once it gets to zero rest of the things should be okay.

This is why I suggested water change for now.


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## beaslbob

jamal6008 said:


> I completely agree with using plants to do that. My tank is also very well planted which is why I have 0 ppm for both nitrite and nitrate. I am not entirely sure what has caused the ammonia spike, maybe the dead fish or something else. I really want to get this to zero because I know once it gets to zero rest of the things should be okay.
> 
> This is why I suggested water change for now.


If you re using prime or another ammonia lock the ammonia could be all locked up. the seachem multitest can check for that

My .02
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jamal6008

beaslbob said:


> If you re using prime or another ammonia lock the ammonia could be all locked up. the seachem multitest can check for that
> 
> My .02
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not using any of them products. The only thing I am using is my standard external filter fluval 406. I have not changed any of the filter media and its all standard.


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## corina savin

Beaslbob: I understand your point regarding the accumulation of nitrates. You will never get them down to zero unless you do 100% water change (assume no plants). You assume however that the amount of nitrates you remove with a water change is equal or less than the amount of nitrates produced between the water change. Several large water changes will totally reset your nitrate count. If you agree that a 50% water change a week better removes nitrates than 5 water changes of 10% each (in the same week), you got my point.
Don't get me wrong. I am all for plants and how better filtration they provide(compared with bacteria) But we are not talking nitrates here. We are talking fish hormones. I do believe that fish release pheromones. 
I had an over crowded tank once. For some unknown reason, my fish went in panic mode. All hiding, heavy breathing, staying in group. They were not even eating. I could not find out why. After few days and several water changes, things started to improve. I have no other explanation than to consider stress hormones.


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## beaslbob

Corina:

the point I made was for when sufficient water changes had been conducted to that tank parameters were the same water change to water change. In other words where the tank winds up at.

At that point the amount of say nitrates removed is equal to the build up between changes.

Assuming a linear measure of anything (like pheromones) and a linear increase then the same exact logic applies.

IMHO you had to do the water changes simply because the tank was not balanced out.

And I have had 30 guppies in a 10g tank with 6 reproducing adults run for 9 years. The fish were descendants from the original cycle trio.

I also have had 4 5"+ fish in a 55g marine tank that ran for 6 years with no water changes.

And platies at similiar levels in another tank.

And have done those things in 1/2 dozen cities in the US when I moved around tin the air force. So it is not the quality of the tap water at any one location.

But all that is just my experience.

Which is worth at most .02


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## jaysee

beaslbob said:


> What you need to do IMHO is consume the nitrates completely so they are always 0. That way the tank just takes care of itself even with no water changes. In fact, once that point is reached, water changes can only degrade the tank.



Yes, once you've let things go to that degree you gotta stick with it come hell or high water! Speaking of which, still no pics of your no water change guppy tank?


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