# This is going to be my 1st setup, chime in!



## BillyVille (Feb 15, 2008)

This is going to be for my Communty Tank. What do you think?

75 gallon tank and stand
Custom blue rock background with caves and tunnels
White gravel
Holey rock
Canister filter
300w heater
Reverse underground filter system
Live and fake flowers
Drift wood
Bubble wand
I know Im leaving something out but ohh well here is the fish list:


1 Boesemani Rainbow
1 Red Rainbow
1 Praecox Rainbow
2 Skunk Cory Cats
1 Candy Strip Pleco
6 Clown Loaches
3 Pink Glow Fish
3 Orange Glow Fish
4 Angel Fish
1 Swordtail

3 Ghost Shrimp
1 Red Crystal Shrimp
2 Dwarf Frogs


Is that toooo many fish or do I have room for more?!?


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## BillyVille (Feb 15, 2008)

Im also wondering do I really need a pleco? I mean they dump alot of waste but they do help clean up, if I ditch the pleco could I add some silver dollars?


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## fish_4_all (Nov 13, 2006)

> 1 Boesemani Rainbow 1 Red Rainbow 1 Praecox Rainbow 2 Skunk Cory Cats 1 Candy Strip Pleco 6 Clown Loaches 3 Pink Glow Fish
> 3 Orange Glow Fish 4 Angel Fish 1 Swordtail
> 
> 3 Ghost Shrimp 1 Red Crystal Shrimp 2 Dwarf Frogs


Well, I think that once all the fish get full sizes it will be way overcrowded. The clown loaches like groups but get very large. The angels will too and will eventually eat smaller fish. The shrimp would not last long with those fish either. 

Might be a good idea to get some more replies about which fish to get as the list seems a little much.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

BillyVille said:


> This is going to be for my Communty Tank. What do you think?
> 
> 75 gallon tank and stand
> Custom blue rock background with caves and tunnels
> ...


I wouldn't keep 2 clown loaches in 75 gallons long term, they get way too big. The rainbows are likely to chew up on the glow fish and the swordtail, and the angelfish are going to need much more territory and space than 75 gallons long term, and can get quite aggressive as they mature. You don't want to mix ghost shrimp with the red crystal shrimp, they'll eat each other, and the dwarf frogs are likely to also eat the red crystal shrimp.
The rainbows get quite large, 5 - 6 inches for what you've listed, and those species can be quite nippy and territorial. My suggestion would be to work with the rainbows and find others more compatible with them, such as gouramis, some of the barbs... or work with the other smaller fishes and find others that would work with them.

I have to strongly discourage the glo fish. The color in these fish is injected with dye, and its a very inhumane procedure. The dye wears off over time, leaving you with a very plain bland looking fish with lots of health problems. When they inject these fish, the death rate is very high. The only way to work towards prevention is to discourage people from spending money on them and supporting the cause. 

Lupin I think had some links to some very informative articles about the glofish and the way they are injected... if not I can search it out for you here and post it. 

As for the number of fish you wish to keep in that tank, it will depend greatly on how big they get to be and how aggressive they each are. If you need help with more suggestions, let us know!


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## BillyVille (Feb 15, 2008)

The only reason I had 6 clown loaches is because I was told they wouldnt be aggressive if I had atleast 6 together? 

what about this...


2 Rainbow Fish 
2 Skunk Cory Cats 
4 Clown Loaches 
3 Pink Glo Fish 
3 Orange Glo Fish 
4 Angel Fish 
1 Swordtail
5 Ghost Shrimp
2 Frogs?

And about the glow fish, My girlfriend wants those so... How big do those get?


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Unfortunately, if this is going to be a permanent home for these fish, there is not going to be any hopes of keeping any clown loaches long term. A full grown clown loach can reach 16 inches, and yes I have seen a few over 14 already. 
Again, I can't condone glofish for any tank... and the angels will also outgrow 75 gallons within about 1 yr. Angels average 6 - 8 inches in diameter when full grown, and are quite aggressive. 1 Angel in 75 gallons might go 1 yr, but not much beyond that. There simply is not enough space there for an adult angelfish even alone.


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## Flashygrrl (Jan 18, 2008)

Are we talking about the tetra type glowfish (that are indeed injected), or the Danio type glofish that the genetics were "enhanced"?


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## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

> Im also wondering do I really need a pleco?


You don't really have to have a pleco. The cory cats do a great job as a cleanup crew for the bottom, although they don't eat algae. Shrimp will eat algae. You should up the number of the cory cats to maybe 4-6. They like to be in groups. 

The rainbows also should be in schools. If you stick with Praecox rainbows they only get to about 3". Boesemani and Irian get bigger, about 4-5". I've not kept Irian but my Boesemani so far have been good tankmates with my other fish. They display alot to each other but don't bother the other fish.


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## crazy4fish (Dec 31, 2007)

ok well i agree about leaving out the plec and uping the cories to 4-6. i would forget about getting clown loaches as they will get over a foot long. the ghost shrimp and frogs should be fine and although i am against getting glofish if you reall insist on getting them yourself 6 should be fine. 4 angelfish will be too much but i think a pair should be fine. but you should now that i am not an expert and bettababy has had a lot more experiance so you might want to take advice from her. the angels will get agressive so you might want to think about replacing them with something else. the swordtails will get agressive too and normally like to be kept in at least a pair. if you dont want the agression then you could swap them with mollies or platies. the boesman's rainbow fish get to about 4-5 in. and like schools. but there are others that are smaller.

ok so i think a better list would be
3-5 rainbowfish depending on the size
4-6 cories
3 pink glofish
3 orange glofish
5 ghost shrimp
2 frogs
2 swords/platies/mollies
and depending on wether or not you get some of the above fish you could also get a school of cherry barbs, neons/cardinals, rummynoses, white clouds, or harlequin rasboras. you could also get some gouramis.
if you still want a loach you should some kuhlis,dwarf chained loaches,zebra loaches,or skunk loaches.


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## BillyVille (Feb 15, 2008)

Ok im giving up the clown loaches =(

Here is my new list so keep the comments coming...


4 Rainbow Fish
4 Skunk Cory Cats
2 Pink Glo Fish
2 Green Glo Fish
2 Orange Glo Fish
5 Angel Fish
3 Ghost Glass Cats
2 Flame Dwarf Gourami
1 Siamese Algae Eater

5 Ghost Shrimp
2 Frogs
2 Snails

And when Im cycling I will add the 6 glo fish to begin it all.


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## herefishy (Dec 14, 2006)

One subject that no one broached was the color of the gravel. Light covered gravel has been proven to increase the anxiety in the piscivoric world. Darker gravel settles the fish down and gives them a sense of security. If you are going to use live plants in the tank, I would use Eco-Complete for Planted Aquariums or a mix of gravel and fluorite or laterite. My preference would be the EcoComplete.

Angels, gouramis and rainbows will also tear up the leaves of many live plants. Rather than the angels, I might try festivums, they do stay a little smaller, not much, and are not as aggressive except at breeding time. They are also a little easier on the plants, but will tear the leaves occasionally if not fed veggies from time to time. 

Glass cats like some current, gouramis like a more placid setting. If you are set on the glass cats, the gourami will have to rough it out. 

Rainbows can get kind of big, although there are now dwarf rainbows available in the hobby. They also prefer school of 6 or more. Four might be ok but I am sure that six would be better. They also like their water a little harder, higher pH than those mentioned before, save the glass cat.

Siamese algae eaters get large and belligerent. As they get older, they shy away from algae and may attack smaller tankmates. I would substitute flying foxes. Good little fish.

Glo-fish, another one of man's merchandising and sales at all cost ploys. Practices like this is what gives the hobby a bad name. I, personally do not like adding fuel to the fire of those who wish the hobby banned. Please, stay away from these fish. If it's color and action you are looking for there are hundreds of other fish to choose from. Get some edlers. Being new to the hobby, you have no idea how serious the anti aquarium people are. 

Everyone so far has given you very sound advice. Yet, you wish to dash around it with every new post. Take the advice of one with 46 years in the hobby. When in doubt, listen!!!!!! If you already have your mind made up, why ask for opinions to validate what you now know may cause problems in the future? I just don't understand it. I don't mean for this to sound vicious or create hard feelings in any way. Just giving you some advice, listen to what these members are telling you. They will not lead you astray. They will give you sound advice and help you to enjoy the hobby. They are actually helping to save you from headaches, heartaches, and wallet cramps.

There is a saying in the hobby. This looks like a good place to bring it out. In the hobby there are "havers" and "keepers". Havers put fish in their tanks to feed their egos and fill a need to possess for gratification. Keepers, on the other hand, possess fish to further their love of natural things and to bring a piece of that nature into their homes. They cater to the needs of the creatures they keep. Some of the plainest fish are the most fascinating. I would like for you to join us as a keeper, as would all who have posted in this thread. Will you join us?


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## Cody (Dec 22, 2007)

The Angels will get very aggresive with all the other fish and most likley eat the Glofish.

Cories should be in gropus of 6+, and Glass Cats in groups of 5+.

The SAE will get 9-12" long and get very aggresive.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Bob, very very well said, I applaud your last paragraph about the havers and the keepers. 

To contribute to the newest stock list, again... you can't put numerous angelfish into that size of a tank... plain and simple, it can't work. Take a saucer plate and hold it up to the tank. Imagine 5 of these in there... where on earth would they go? Add to the size the fact that they are aggressive, would rip up the dwarf gouramis quickly.... and the amount of waste they produce... 

I guess I also have to ask the same kinds of questions Bob has already asked... are you trying to create something that will work or something that will end in disaster with a lot of dead animals and a lot of expense? We really are not telling you to avoid certain fish and/or mixes of fish because we don't want you to keep them, we are telling you because we all know that this can't work and end nicely. 

If you were to take your last stock list, get rid of the dwarf gouramis, move into a 200+ gallon tank, yes, then maybe it could work for you. 

I am going to find a link for you explaining about the glo fish... will be back with it as soon as I find it!


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Here is one link for you to read:

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/show_article.php?article_id=72

And one more... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Painted_fish

I can only hope you will see the inhumanity in this process and reconsider your choices.


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## crazy4fish (Dec 31, 2007)

ok, you have to remember that you only have a 75 gallon. some of those fish get pretty big and when they are big AND agressive they will need even more room. the rainbow fish will be fine depending on what kind you get. what kind did you have in mind when you made the list? if you got celebes or threadfin you would be ok but the larger types might not fit. i would also change the algae eater to a flying fox because they both eat algae and lets face it the flying foxes are cute.  the gouramis should be ok if you leave out the angelfish because i *think* the angels will bully them.... correct me if im wrong. the ghost cats should be ok in that mix but they dont like a lot of light and if there is too much light they will spend most of their time hiding. i would up the cories to 6 and if possible the glass cats to 5 if space permits. i also think that changing the angels to festivums wouldnt be such a bad idea since festivums are not as agressive. and if you ditch the SAE and the angels you could get some type of schooling fish to go in there if you wanted


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## crazy4fish (Dec 31, 2007)

ok sorry to double post but as soon as i posted the last one i was thinking.... even though severums are les agressive than angels would they still be to big to put in a 75 gal?


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## BillyVille (Feb 15, 2008)

herefishy said:


> One subject that no one broached was the color of the gravel. Light covered gravel has been proven to increase the anxiety in the piscivoric world. Darker gravel settles the fish down and gives them a sense of security. If you are going to use live plants in the tank, I would use Eco-Complete for Planted Aquariums or a mix of gravel and fluorite or laterite. My preference would be the EcoComplete.
> 
> Angels, gouramis and rainbows will also tear up the leaves of many live plants. Rather than the angels, I might try festivums, they do stay a little smaller, not much, and are not as aggressive except at breeding time. They are also a little easier on the plants, but will tear the leaves occasionally if not fed veggies from time to time.
> 
> ...


Im sorry, I will join you! Sorry for not listening to everything you guys have told me. I would like some angel fish, so here comes my question... How quick do they grow? Cause I plan to have a much bigger tank when I move in the next year or so...

Sorry again if I made anyone mad


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## BillyVille (Feb 15, 2008)

Can someone please post a pics of some festivus?


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## crazy4fish (Dec 31, 2007)

no hard feelings  everyone makes mistakes. sometimes its hard not to get caught up in the excitment of fish keeping and go overboard :lol: trust me.... my head is in the clouds sometimes too. :wink: 

here are some pics of festivums. they arent great cause the internet didnt have much to chose from.

























here are some flying foxes just in case you were wondering about them.

















and again.... what kind of rainbows are you thinking about?


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## BillyVille (Feb 15, 2008)

Boesemani Rainbow 
Praecox Rainbow


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## BillyVille (Feb 15, 2008)

I dont want to affend anyone Im just telling what I just heard from my local pet store. They said you can put angel fish in 10 gallon tanks even, that a 75 gallon tank could hold 5 or more wil lots of other fish. They said they are just normal angel fish, that the ones that get big are called african angel fish. Im not saying I trust them im just sharing what I was told.


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## fish_4_all (Nov 13, 2006)

Well one thing can be said about them then. The care about the bottom line, $$, and not making sure you are happy as a keeper. Errornious information is one thing but that kind of information is simple ignorance or worse, they simply don't care. 

You are on the right track though. Even though it has been harped on a little too much you are doing the right thing by asking what fish to get before getting them. I think you will be much happier if you get fish that will work together in the long run and hopefully have a few less headaches from diseases and losses of your fish.


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## herefishy (Dec 14, 2006)

BillyVille, you have just learned one of the greatest lessons in fish keeping. LFS's are there to make money, for the most part. There are some, and I am blessed to have two, that truly take the hobby to heart. They are usually the small neighborhood, ma and pa type stores that don't have a lot of glitz. But they realize that their business puts food on the table and that they need you to come back long-term. In doing so, they will give you the information you need and provide you with honest information. They will usually become you best friend in the hobby.

I can imagine what you were told. If you could sit down and have a cup of coffee with me sometime(well, maybe a Bean and Coke), I will tell you stories that, after you get a little more acqainted with the hobby, will just shock the pants off of you.

You have made a great choice. To be a fish keeper is a demanding yet rewarding hobby. It will be more enoyable than demanding, let me assure you. The members here care about their hobby, for the most part. There are a very few that do not, but they usually aren't here long. Have fun with your new hobby.Enjoy the time you spend here. I invite you to post in the boards an to partake in our chatroom. You will make many friends here. You may even find someone who lives near you. Never know. Then the two of you can sit around and talk about fish.....

Welcome aboard.


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## BillyVille (Feb 15, 2008)

Thank You


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

crazy4fish said:


> here are some flying foxes just in case you were wondering about them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They're not flying foxes but true Siamese Algae Eaters. They're not readily available but are more useful than flying foxes and false Siamese Algae Eaters (_Garra_).


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

BillyVille said:


> I dont want to affend anyone Im just telling what I just heard from my local pet store. They said you can put angel fish in 10 gallon tanks even, that a 75 gallon tank could hold 5 or more wil lots of other fish. They said they are just normal angel fish, that the ones that get big are called african angel fish. Im not saying I trust them im just sharing what I was told.


I think your LFS more wants your money than anything else. Anyone who would put an angelfish into 10 gallons needs to be knocked upside the head. Also, angels don't come from Africa... none of them! Angelfish are from South America, and are based out of the Amazon River.

I can think of a few things I would like to say to those people at your LFS, but it wouldn't be polite enough to post it here. Africa? C'mon... maybe if they're imported or being raised by a breeder who's living there, but that is not nor has ever been even close to South America, which is where they are all from.

Now, there are different types of angels... but they all come from the same place of origin. Now that you know you can't trust the people at your LFS, I would strongly suggest doing plenty of research on anything you may decide to purchase there. Books, internet, and of course, here. This forum is a wealth of knowledge about anything fish. Here you will get accurate answers to your questions, and sooo much first hand experience that your LFS wouldn't have a clue. You'll want to prepare yourself to go in, ask for what you want, and leave, not relying on them to help you beyond that. I think we should also help teach you how to choose healthy fish, and what signs of illness to look for. Anyone talking about keeping angels in 10 gallons surely can't be taking very good care of their own fish... 

Sorry, but I couldnt let that one go, I have never heard of anything so outrageous... (well, I have, but that's in the top 5!)


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## crazy4fish (Dec 31, 2007)

sorry about the "flying fox" pics. the site i went to said they were flying foxes. i'll look into it more next time.


and i'm with bettababy on this whole angelfish in a 10 gal thing. who in the right mind could think a fish that big could fit in a tank that small! i mean you dont even have to be in the hobby to know that wouldnt work!


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## crazy4fish (Dec 31, 2007)

sorry about the "flying fox" pics. the site i went to said they were flying foxes. i'll look into it more next time.


and i'm with bettababy on this whole angelfish in a 10 gal thing. who in the right mind could think a fish that big could fit in a tank that small! i mean you dont even have to be in the hobby to know that wouldnt work!


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## SeaSerpant (Dec 9, 2007)

as from personal experience with angelfish, i think it will be fine depending on what kind your getting and if your getting female/male. i have no idea of how to sex angelfish right now but will pretty soon after the research. in my 60g tank right at the moment i have 

4 anglefish
2 gourmais
3 black skirt tetras
1 glassfish
1 kuhli loach
3 african dwarf frogs (not african dwarf clawed frogs)
1 albino pleco

and i have no aggression problems and my angelfish are at peak of health. It helps alot with what kind of fish your putting in with them. the aggression issues the territorie issues and once they get big enough, the eating issues. angelfish are the kind of fish you want good quality water parameters with. i do almost 50% water change every week and the only ill effects of that on my angelfish is if they swim into where i'm pouring the water in and there fins tear a bit otherwise it's all benefits form water changes. i have done some research on angelfish and they will only nip at your plants if their ill fed (don't eat enough to fill themselves) and their body structure is built for weaving in and through plants. IMHO angelfish will do fine in a 75g tank and will only turn on you if they pair up or in a to small tank.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

If 4 angels fit into a 60 gallon then they are young and not full grown yet. (or their growth was stunted due to poor water quality, though it doesn't sound like it).
Angelfish get 6 - 8 inches full grown and there isn't a dwarf species. While it takes a couple of years for them to reach adult size, considering the amount of growth, that is quite fast. Each growth spurt they go through increases the waste they put out and the agression levels, and the amount of territory they need to claim. 

Adding angels to a 75 gallon tank is only temporary, and knowing that they need a larger tank and being able to provide that are important before choosing them in the first place. That is what is called responsible fish keeping. A lot of disasters happen 1 - 2 yrs into owning a tank for reasons such as this... all of a sudden something larger is needed and can't be provided at that time...


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## LincolnS (Dec 24, 2007)

i never knew that angelfish required so much territory...im glad i returned my pair( they were in a 30 gallon)

Also the glofish(zebra danios variety). ive never heard anything about them being treated inhumanlly..i was pretty sure their dna was changed with that they shouldnt have go through injections or anything of the sort (so their spawns shouldnt have any problems besides possibly inbreeding) Sorry if im wrong, was just kinda curious as thats one of my areas of interest(genetics that is)


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## BillyVille (Feb 15, 2008)

LincolnS said:


> i never knew that angelfish required so much territory...im glad i returned my pair( they were in a 30 gallon)
> 
> Also the glofish(zebra danios variety). ive never heard anything about them being treated inhumanlly..i was pretty sure their dna was changed with that they shouldnt have go through injections or anything of the sort (so their spawns shouldnt have any problems besides possibly inbreeding) Sorry if im wrong, was just kinda curious as thats one of my areas of interest(genetics that is)


Why did you return your angels?


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## crazy4fish (Dec 31, 2007)

there are some fish called glo/highlight whatever that are just naturally bright and beautiful, but there are others that have been injected. i was extremely surprised to see pics like these when i searched the internet. :evil: i feel so bad for these fish but people still buy them because they look "pretty".


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## Falina (Feb 25, 2007)

LincolnS said:


> i never knew that angelfish required so much territory...im glad i returned my pair( they were in a 30 gallon)
> 
> Also the glofish(zebra danios variety). ive never heard anything about them being treated inhumanlly..i was pretty sure their dna was changed with that they shouldnt have go through injections or anything of the sort (so their spawns shouldnt have any problems besides possibly inbreeding) Sorry if im wrong, was just kinda curious as thats one of my areas of interest(genetics that is)


I'm pretty sure the ones you have, from their description, are the genetically altered ones. Just be careful - their fry are trademarked, so you cannot sell them.

I think you made the right choice by returning the abgelfish. IMHO, 30g is simply too small.


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## SeaSerpant (Dec 9, 2007)

30g is to small but there should be around 15-20g per angelfish.


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## crazy4fish (Dec 31, 2007)

how big of groups do angels *like* to be in? not how many can you fit in a certain size tank but what do they perfer?


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## SeaSerpant (Dec 9, 2007)

well they can be in a big group but once 2 pair up they will turn on the others but if you get 1 male for every 3 females i think you will be good.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Falina said:


> I'm pretty sure the ones you have, from their description, are the genetically altered ones. Just be careful - their fry are trademarked, so you cannot sell them.


There is no trademark on fish fry if the adult fish are purchased or collected somewhere legally. Due to the number of those fish in the open market and the ease at which they breed on their own, there would be no way for someone to control all of the breeding around the world and force some kind of regulation that would prevent the sale of the fry. Think about this for a sec... danios are egg scattering fishes, meaning when they spawn you are looking at up to 100 fry at a time. Where would all of these fish go if not allowed to be sold? How would they stay in the hobby, and who would buy something that if it spawned they'd be stuck with all of the fry? That wouldn't be practial or realistic. If you legally own fish, any fry they might have are in the hands of the owner, and what to do with them is also entirely up to the owner.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

SeaSerpant said:


> well they can be in a big group but once 2 pair up they will turn on the others but if you get 1 male for every 3 females i think you will be good.


1 male or 3 males, however many you have together, when 2 angels pair up, they will turn on the others. So, if you have 1 male and 3 females, once the male pairs with 1 female, the other 2 females are outsiders and subject to attack if they intrude on the pair's territory.

A good number to get is 2, 4, 6.... if you are sure of their sex (which can be very difficult to do in adults unless they spawn, and is near impossible in young angels) keep it in even numbers and don't crowd them.


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## crazy4fish (Dec 31, 2007)

how can you tell if it is a boy or girl?


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

The biggest difference is the shape of the vent, but quite often this isn't something that can be seen unless the fish are adult and spawning, where the female's vent is more exposed. 
In young angels, its pretty much impossible to know for sure, which also makes the idea of getting a pair or 1 male/3 females near impossible to achieve. Keeping them in even numbers will provide them the best safety from one another, never leaving an odd one out if 2 should pair up later.


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## SeaSerpant (Dec 9, 2007)

sorry but, vent?


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

vent = ovipositor, aka egg tube.

On the female, when the vent is sticking out, it is different shape than that same organ in the male which releases sperm. The shape of the opening on a female is oval or long shaped, the male is more round. Until the fish is mature and usually even then only when spawning is happening, will this "tube" be visible enough to tell the difference between the 2. Many breeders know male from female more because they watch who's laying the eggs.


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## crazy4fish (Dec 31, 2007)

do stores usually have more males than females or vice versa? or is it usually pretty even?


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Considering that stores typically only stock young angels, there is really no way to know which are which. When you work with young ones you sort of just take your chances and see what they grow up to be.

The only way to have a good chance of making sure you have both male and female is to start out in a very very large tank with a big group (even numbers) and grow them up until they are sexable, keep the pair and get rid of the rest. Again, this would require a very very large tank. 200+ gallons for something like this would be a minimum and only temporary.


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## crazy4fish (Dec 31, 2007)

well i wish i could have a 200 gal tank! :lol:


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