# Water Condition



## MetalArm3 (Jun 22, 2011)

I am writing in concern to the water quality of my tank, but first some info. I have a 27gal cube tank that has a Marineland bio-wheel 350 filter with heater set at a constant 77 degrees Fahrenheit. It is well decorated and has a 5inch stone bubbler. The inhabitants are: 3 Red Wag Platties, 3 LongFin Black Skirted Tetra, 2 Fancy Guppies (one baby) and 2 Cory Catfish. Their is ammonia in the tank that keeps returning. When there is ammonia present I add API Ammo Lock to clean it up. My question is, why does the ammonia keep returning? I have followed the rule of 1inch of fish per 1 gallon in tank. Also, every time i clean my tank thoroughly (usually once every 2 weeks) there is a white hazy cloud that fills the tank for days, and water clearifier doesn't seem to help. Could this be the tank cycling from the cleaning? I usually take out about 8 gallons of water with a gravel vacuum and wipe the glass down.

I hope you guys can follow what i wrote (kind of jumbled).
Let me know if you need more info.

Any help is appreciated,
MetalArm3


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

MetalArm3 said:


> I am writing in concern to the water quality of my tank, but first some info. I have a 27gal cube tank that has a Marineland bio-wheel 350 filter with heater set at a constant 77 degrees Fahrenheit. It is well decorated and has a 5inch stone bubbler. The inhabitants are: 3 Red Wag Platties, 3 LongFin Black Skirted Tetra, 2 Fancy Guppies (one baby) and 2 Cory Catfish. Their is ammonia in the tank that keeps returning. When there is ammonia present I add API Ammo Lock to clean it up. My question is, why does the ammonia keep returning? I have followed the rule of 1inch of fish per 1 gallon in tank. Also, every time i clean my tank thoroughly (usually once every 2 weeks) there is a white hazy cloud that fills the tank for days, and water clearifier doesn't seem to help. Could this be the tank cycling from the cleaning? I usually take out about 8 gallons of water with a gravel vacuum and wipe the glass down.
> 
> I hope you guys can follow what i wrote (kind of jumbled).
> Let me know if you need more info.
> ...


How long has tank been running with Fish? what water conditioner is used? are you overfeeding the fish? Have you tested tapwater if this is what you use for ammonia?
Ammolock has been reported to give false positive ammonia readings depending on test kit used.
Water changes of 50 percent once each week or perhaps twice a week if tank has not cycled should be favored over product like ammolock in my opinion.
Feeding fish once a day or every other day can also help keep ammonia levels manageable.
Leaving filter material in filter till it literally begins to deteriorate, and only cleaning this material in old aquarium water will help preserve healthy biological filter.
PRIME would be the dechlorinator I would recommend for anyone looking for full function water conditioner.


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## ladayen (Jun 21, 2011)

As 1077 said, stop using the ammo lock.

The white cloud your seeing is potentially a beneficial bacteria bloom. What are you using to wipe the glass down with? I would suggest leaving the glass alone right now anyhow as that is where alot of the good bacteria are.

Also on a side note, Black skirts and Cory's both do better when there are 6+ together.

I'm thinking even more frequent water changes then what 1077 suggested however, perhaps 30-40% every other day maybe even daily.


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## Romad (Jun 28, 2009)

Did you say you clean the tank thoroughly every few weeks? What do you mean by that? 

I'm guessing you're losing beneficial bacteria every time you clean and your tank will never completely cycle this way.


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

What are you using to test your ammonina? Is ammonia present after you change the water, if using tap water have you tested your tap water to see if ammonia is present? I agree with more frequent water changes, especially if your tank has not cycled yet. The reading that you are getting after using the ammonia lock could actually be ammonium, which if you are using a liquid test kit for ammonia it may read both ammonia and ammonium NH3 and NH4+. As someone else mentioned the white cloudiness in the water possibly could be a bacterial bloom, using a clarifier will not help, this is something that will clear up on its own.


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## MetalArm3 (Jun 22, 2011)

To Answer the Questions Above:

I am using the API liquid NH3 andNH4+ test kit. Ammonia is still present after a 25% water change with no ammonia coming from the tap. The current ammonia reading in my tank as of now is 4.0ppm. By clean "thoroughly" I mean I wipe the glass down with a papertowel when I seed excessive growth, take the plants out that have fish food and waste attached to it (black stuff), clean the suction cups on my heater, air pump and thermometer. When I add new water in I add in water conditioner by Aqueonn (not directly into tank). The tank has been running for about 2 months now with feedings taken place early more and at night, but now it's been once a night. 

If I cut the feeding down to once every other day will the baby guppy survive? I stopped using Ammo Lock today to (as I am all out) and won't buy anymore. I plan I getting a different test kit that also shows Ph levels. For now I changed the filters and we will see what happens. So are water changes recommend or should I let the bacteria grow for awhile?

I will add a picture today of the current state of my tank under my aquarium tab.

Thank you for all the help guys much appreciated.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I think you are doing too much "cleaning." A partial water change regularly, usually about 30% or 40% once a week, should be adequate; vacuum the substrate at the same time, unless you have live plants rooted in the substrate, in which case leave it alone. Filter media should be rinsed (in a bucket of water from the tank) when it needs it, so the water keeps flowing easily. Don't replace media unless it no longer works, i.e., the water can get around it.

Stop using the clarifier. These chemicals work by binding together minuscule particulate matter into larger particles that can then (theoretically) be removed by the filter pad/media. But these chemicals also bind the gills of fish, which is highly stressful. And stress weakens the immune system, leaving the fish more vulnerable to other issues. Cloudy water is usually harmless to fish and it is better to clear it naturally.

You mentioned the ammonia isn't in the tap water; have you test tap water on its own for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? Even though I suspect the ammonia is due to the rigorous cleaning, it is worth knowing this.

Byron.


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## ladayen (Jun 21, 2011)

You said you wipe the glass down with a paper towel.. something tells me you're not simply using a dry paper towl to wipe the glass. Are you wiping glass on the inside of the tank?(DON'T)

You mention black stuff in your tank... thats probably Algae. Not a major concern at the moment but how much light is your tank getting? EIther froma bulb or the sun.

Argh !! why did you change your filter.. 1077 specifically mentioned to leave it in. You're disrupting the bacteria buildup process, getting rid of the only thing that will take care of the ammonia.

Bacteria grow primarly on the on the surface of objects such as , the glass, your filter, plants and other decorations.

Without any fish in the tank you can change significant portions of water (50%+ ) with no worries. With fish I wouldn't do more then 50% a day, and only that much in an emergency such as this.

You said your ammonia is 4ppm? How the ..... are your fish still alive in that? That really makes me question the accuracy of that test. Perhaps bring some water to your LFS and have them test it. Most will do it for free or if not, it should be a very small fee.


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## MetalArm3 (Jun 22, 2011)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MetalArm3 (Jun 22, 2011)

I do question the accuracy of the tests too. I'm going to be purchasing a new test kit, any recommendations. Would like it to test ammonia and ph if possible, but nothing outragously expensive. In the mean time I will do 25% water changes, but should I leave the gravel alone? I heard a lot of beneficial bacteria growth is in the gravel.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

MetalArm3 said:


> I do question the accuracy of the tests too. I'm going to be purchasing a new test kit, any recommendations. Would like it to test ammonia and ph if possible, but nothing outragously expensive. In the mean time I will do 25% water changes, but should I leave the gravel alone? I heard a lot of beneficial bacteria growth is in the gravel.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is something of a catch 22. Organic buildup in the gravel obviously produces ammonia. But bacteria colonize the substrate and need ammonia. If you have live plants, I would definitely not vacuum the substrate. I'd like to track down this ammonia to have a better idea of what's occurring before going further.

The API liquid test kit is reliable; most of us here use it. The Master Combo includes ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH, and these are all you really need.

On those test results, if you are using an ammonia detoxifier, it works by changing toxic ammonia into basically harmless ammonium. Test kits read ammonia/ammonium as "ammonia" so it will still appear even though it will (presumably) be ammonium. And ammonia at 4 if it is real ammonia would kill the fish very fast and you would see signs of ammonia poisoning (red gills, very fast respiration, at the surface hanging or gulping air).

Are there live plants? These help considerably by assimilating a lot of ammonia/ammonium.

Byron.


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## MetalArm3 (Jun 22, 2011)

No I dont have live plants, all fake. I was afraid that live plants would make the tank more cloudy, the fish would eat them, and require more care. Is live plants a strong recommendation? If so what kind, are they difficult to grow, how long to they last..... answers to such questions would help considerably.

You've been great help, thanks a lot!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

MetalArm3 said:


> No I dont have live plants, all fake. I was afraid that live plants would make the tank more cloudy, the fish would eat them, and require more care. Is live plants a strong recommendation? If so what kind, are they difficult to grow, how long to they last..... answers to such questions would help considerably.
> 
> You've been great help, thanks a lot!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
I am less then a full year into live plants myself and thought they would be difficult but they are not at all. I have Eco-Complete substrate but you can use just normal gravel as well. I have mostly hardy plants in my tanks right now. Amazon Swords, Java Moss, Java Fern, Wisteria, Pennywort, Ludwigia etc... They are all doing wonderfullly and do not need a whole lot of care. I do dip out the leaves that break off with my net and I do add an aquarium plant fertilaizer called Flourish Comprehensive Supplement 2 times a week. Once when I forget. They grow beautifully, the fish seem to really enjoy swimming about In and around them. T hey didn't so much around the plastic plants.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

MetalArm3 said:


> No I dont have live plants, all fake. I was afraid that live plants would make the tank more cloudy, the fish would eat them, and require more care. Is live plants a strong recommendation? If so what kind, are they difficult to grow, how long to they last..... answers to such questions would help considerably.
> 
> You've been great help, thanks a lot!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have no fish that eat plants (there are a few that will), so all my tanks always are full of live plants. The benefits cannot be understated, but I won't get into all that now. Most aquarium plants are relatively easy; but they do need good light, and then nutrients. Many of the latter occur naturally in the aquarium and from water changes. Many plants will do fine in regular gravel or sand, with 8-10 hours of overhead light daily; assuming your tank has an overhead light fixture, just replacing the tube or bulb with a suitable spectrum one will be it. I have large swords that are now in their 13 or 14th year, my pygmy chain swords are descended from a single plant acquired in 1997, as are my floating Water Sprite plants.


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## MetalArm3 (Jun 22, 2011)

*Byron and Inga*

Good Advice. I had no idea the plants could live that long. I will have to do more research but you guys have lead me on the right path. I have the marineland day/night led light, would that be sufficient to grow plants in?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

MetalArm3 said:


> Good Advice. I had no idea the plants could live that long. I will have to do more research but you guys have lead me on the right path. I have the marineland day/night led light, would that be sufficient to grow plants in?


I am not personally familiar with any of the LED lights now available, but other members here are as they have commented on them in other threads. Youomight want to start a new thread under Aquarium Plants on LED lights to get more of feedback.


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## MetalArm3 (Jun 22, 2011)

Byron said:


> I am not personally familiar with any of the LED lights now available, but other members here are as they have commented on them in other threads. Youomight want to start a new thread under Aquarium Plants on LED lights to get more of feedback.


Will do. You have been of great help, very much appreciated. If I give you the dimensions of my tank would you be willing to suggest plants for it (small, medium, and large)? Like most members I find this subject to be quite overwhelming.

BTW I read your 4 part series on lives plants, very well done.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

MetalArm3 said:


> Will do. You have been of great help, very much appreciated. If I give you the dimensions of my tank would you be willing to suggest plants for it (small, medium, and large)? Like most members I find this subject to be quite overwhelming.
> 
> BTW I read your 4 part series on lives plants, very well done.


Thank you. Give me the tank size (20g long, 30g, etc).


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## MetalArm3 (Jun 22, 2011)

Byron said:


> Thank you. Give me the tank size (20g long, 30g, etc).


I have a Marineland(r) 27gallon Cube Complete Aquarium Ensemble. The dimensions are 20"W X 18"D X 20"H. I have a large hollow arch shape piece of driftwood that runs diagonally across the middle of the tank with a 5" disc bubbler that I would like to keep. The rest I would like to see live plants in. Please refer to my aquarium bio for info of what I have right now.

Big thanks in advanced for doing this, you are truly a great asset to the community.
-MetalArm3


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

MetalArm3 said:


> I have a Marineland(r) 27gallon Cube Complete Aquarium Ensemble. The dimensions are 20"W X 18"D X 20"H. I have a large hollow arch shape piece of driftwood that runs diagonally across the middle of the tank with a 5" disc bubbler that I would like to keep. The rest I would like to see live plants in. Please refer to my aquarium bio for info of what I have right now.
> 
> Big thanks in advanced for doing this, you are truly a great asset to the community.
> -MetalArm3


Thank you indeed for the kind words.

I checked your photos; once the live plants are available, I would remove the fake, they tend to look even more "fake" with real plants. And then shift that lovely chunk of wood to either left or right [centered makes the tank appear smaller and contrived, always best to offset wood or rock, and never have anything dead centre] and turn it just a tad so the back side is sort of directed towards the left or right rear corner of the tank, depending which way you shift it. That will open up the space.

Plants for behind the wood and the other rear corner: Corkscrew Vallisneria, Amazon Sword, or a stem plant like Brazilian Pennywort. For closer to the front, the pygmy chain sword. These are all in our plant profiles with photos, click on the shaded names.

I would suggest removing the "bubbler." With live plants, carbon from CO2 is a vital nutrient, and bubbling devices remove the CO2 from the water faster, meaning the plants get less.

Byron.


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## MetalArm3 (Jun 22, 2011)

Thanks! I will definitely have to further pursue this with all you suggestions in mind. I like how you mention my driftwood should be off center, your probably right. I always center things to make them equal when I shouldn't (OCD maybe, lol) 

If I may trouble you with one last question however. I have been doing the 25% water changes and now and the water is crystal clear. All the fish are acting normal yet my test kit still reads 4.0ppm. As we mention before, we suspect it's a false positive from Ammo Lock. When this clears up, will I be able to add more fish of the sane type without overstocking it, or am I at my limit?


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## ladayen (Jun 21, 2011)

When you get the ammonia sorted out(NOT BEFORE!!!!) you have a little bit more room. I would suggest adding some more black skirts for sure as having a good school tends to reduce the aggresiveness and the fin nipping from them. 3-5 more of those should work. Cories also do better in schools of 6+ so four more of them. This might be considered slightly over stocked but with the cories on the bottom you should be ok. Do you know what type of cory's you have?


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## MetalArm3 (Jun 22, 2011)

ladayen said:


> When you get the ammonia sorted out(NOT BEFORE!!!!) you have a little bit more room. I would suggest adding some more black skirts for sure as having a good school tends to reduce the aggresiveness and the fin nipping from them. 3-5 more of those should work. Cories also do better in schools of 6+ so four more of them. This might be considered slightly over stocked but with the cories on the bottom you should be ok. Do you know what type of cory's you have?


Sound good man. I'll buy some more of each once everything calms down. I brought the two Cory Catfish at Petsmart and that's all they were tagged as. 

Thanks for all the help,
MetalArm3
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MetalArm3 (Jun 22, 2011)

*Update*

My tank is once again foggy beyond belief. I attached two photos of my latest API Water quality test, The odd thing is my fish seem as happy as when i first got them. No strange or unusual behavior being experienced. So any thoughts on this latest occurrence, Is this the tank cycling finally?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I'm at a loss to offer suggestions. This ammonia test result is simply not accurate of ammonia (assuming the pH is above 7) if the fish are alive. Either something is interfering with the test, or something is faulty. I'm sorry I can't offer something.


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## ladayen (Jun 21, 2011)

bring some water into the LFS and get them to check it for you. If they get the same result you know it's not the test. Ammonia that high would kill fish VERY quickly. That would leave a "false positive", such as mentioned earlier. Ammonium I think it was called. Detoxified ammonia.

Ok just did some more research, and it keeps coming back to cleaners. I'm thinking some how one way or another cleaning solution is getting into your tank. I asked earlier but I'll double check, what are you using to clean your glass? You mentioned a paper towel but when I asked if it was simply a dry paper towel I didn't notice a response. Are you using windex to clean the glass?


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## MetalArm3 (Jun 22, 2011)

ladayen said:


> When you get the ammonia sorted out(NOT BEFORE!!!!) you have a little bit more room. I would suggest adding some more black skirts for sure as having a good school tends to reduce the aggresiveness and the fin nipping from them. 3-5 more of those should work. Cories also do better in schools of 6+ so four more of them. This might be considered slightly over stocked but with the cories on the bottom you should be ok. Do you know what type of cory's you have?


My tank seems to be becoming balanced. I had a white bacterial bloom for about a week and that cleared up. I'm still getting false readings but I expect that to clear up in time. I did some more research on the type of Cory catfish (x2) I have and I believe it's a bronze Cory catfish or also called a common Cory catfish. I am waiting to see the tetras and cories to go on sale then I'll buy them in stages. I was wondering if I need to by the same exact type of cories or would albino cories be ok to?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ladayen (Jun 21, 2011)

With cories you should have schools of 6 or more. You can have 2 species with 3 of each, but it's not recommended to get a bunch of different kinds. Do research on each specific kind you plan on getting and make sure this applies to them.

I'm still concerned about your false readings. Have you taken it to your LFS or gotten some kind of second opinion?


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## MetalArm3 (Jun 22, 2011)

ladayen said:


> With cories you should have schools of 6 or more. You can have 2 species with 3 of each, but it's not recommended to get a bunch of different kinds. Do research on each specific kind you plan on getting and make sure this applies to them.
> 
> I'm still concerned about your false readings. Have you taken it to your LFS or gotten some kind of second opinion?


I posted a new thread here: 

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-aquarium/abnormal-test-results-74187/

to get new community members opinions on the matter. 

I got a new API Liquid Test Kit thinking the old one might be expired, but even the new one gave the same results. I thought I would give it like a month for the Ammo Lock to filter out. I also thought about a 75% water change, but I don't want to remove all the good bacteria that came from the bacterial bloom. All the fish are still accounted for and are doing well.

MetalArm3


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## MetalArm3 (Jun 22, 2011)

*Update!*

WOOT My tank is finally giving me a nearly 0ppm ammonia reading after having 2 months of 8.0ppm ammonia readings. The only thing I changed was my filter. I took off the penguin 350 and installed an Eheim 2232 Ecco canister filter. How could my penguin filter not be sufficient enough for my rank (27gal)? It moves over 10X the necessary amount of water and had four legion filter mediastinum in it (max amount). I'm baffled yet extremely pleased!


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

Good to hear that things are finally getting to where they need to be. Maybe someone would have an idea about the filter :dunno:


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

MetalArm3 said:


> WOOT My tank is finally giving me a nearly 0ppm ammonia reading after having 2 months of 8.0ppm ammonia readings. The only thing I changed was my filter. I took off the penguin 350 and installed an Eheim 2232 Ecco canister filter. How could my penguin filter not be sufficient enough for my rank (27gal)? It moves over 10X the necessary amount of water and had four legion filter mediastinum in it (max amount). I'm baffled yet extremely pleased!


I have read that if the water flow through a filter is too fast, the bacteria cannot handle the ammonia. Just an observation.


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## ladayen (Jun 21, 2011)

Byron said:


> I have read that if the water flow through a filter is too fast, the bacteria cannot handle the ammonia. Just an observation.


 
Heh yeah what Byron said. It was more then sufficient.. too much so. Bacteria need a chance to consume the ammonia. Like trying to grab a burger at a drive through... while on a high speed train. Just doesn't work. Glad you got that figured out.


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

I highly doubt the penguin had too fast a GPH. Otherwise no one would be able to cycle with it =/


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

MetalArm3 said:


> WOOT My tank is finally giving me a nearly 0ppm ammonia reading after having 2 months of 8.0ppm ammonia readings. The only thing I changed was my filter. I took off the penguin 350 and installed an Eheim 2232 Ecco canister filter. How could my penguin filter not be sufficient enough for my rank (27gal)? It moves over 10X the necessary amount of water and had four legion filter mediastinum in it (max amount). I'm baffled yet extremely pleased!


Do be aware that if filter material in Eheim is new, that near zero ammonia levels may increase unless filter material from the Penguin was used to help seed the new filter.
I would NOT use ammolock in new filter, but rather I would use water changes and PRIME should ammonia levels begin to increase. If Decor and substrate were left alone,one may not see a rise in ammonia depending on number's of fish and or foods offered for there is much good bacteria on both plant's, decor,glass,wood,and first few centimeter's of substrate. But with new filter, with no borrowed filter media from old filter,,one may see a spike in ammonia until the bacteria can establish within the new filter.(again, depend's on stocking level's and feeding's)
If you did not add ammolock to the new filter,,then perhaps the ammolock was providing the false positive readings you were getting IMHO.
The less product's used in the aquarium,,the easier it is to identify/eliminate problems.


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## MetalArm3 (Jun 22, 2011)

I left my old penguin filter running for 4 day in tandum with the Eheim filter (is that seeding?). I was reading 8.0ppm for the first 2 weeks of running the Eheim, but am not at 0ppm. The way I feed my fish allows very little food to reach the substrate. I use small pinch at a time of pellets allowing them to eat everything before adding more. I used to use tropical flakes, but have stopped because they pollute the tank 10 folds in my experience. All I have now is a little white haze that should clear with weekly water changes.

I have not used Ammo Lock since early June. So I guess it was giving me a false reading the entire time, but isnt 2 months a really long time. Why would it take until now for the Ammo Lock to filter out? Could the penguin 350 media not handle this task like the Eheim filter media?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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