# Questions



## Fish-addict (Jun 11, 2008)

I had a few questions about the world of saltwater, and I thought I'd ask them all in the same thread.
-Does the need to replace test kits form one of the big costs of a saltwater system? I wanted to know so I don't go out and buy an expensive master test and have to replace it every few months.
-Do you know of any tank mates for a damselfish, that can be kept in a 20 gallon?
-Will dead coral skeletons become live rock?
-Is this all of the equipment needed for a fish only system?:
*Tank
*HOB filter
*powerhead
*rock
*live sand
*light
*hood
*heater
*thermometer
*hospital tank/Q tank setup
*test kits for ph, alkalinity, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate
-Does live sand contain calcium carbonate? Should I add crushed coral/aragonite too?

Sorry to ask so many questions at once, but I don't want to just jump right into a saltwater setup.


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## Fish-addict (Jun 11, 2008)

Also, can pumice be used in a saltwater aquarium?


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

You will only need to replace pH, Alkalinity, Calcium, and Nitrate kits, as a rule. Probably every 6 months or so.

As a rule it is a bad idea to keep any other fish with Damsels, especially in a small aquarium. However, i would personally feel comfortable keeping a Yellow Tail Damsel with a Clownfish or Dottyback. 

Your dead coral skeletons will not become live rock.

Every marine aquarium needs a protein skimmer. They are not option. Your hang on filter really serves as a place to run activated carbon and merchanical filtration. Do not use ANY biological filtration, other than live rock and sand.

You want to use aragonite sand only, at a minimum of 3'' depth, preferably 4''.


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## Fish-addict (Jun 11, 2008)

Okay, so I will pick up some aragonite for substrate base, and I will get atleast 10 lbs of live sand for biological filtration.

As for the skimmer, I am thinking of getting this one: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4392+14676&pcatid=14676


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## SKAustin (Aug 1, 2006)

Pasfur said:


> Your dead coral skeletons will not become live rock.


I have to disagree with this statement. Since some of the live rock you buy in stores is actually comprised of coral skeleton, It would make sense that, providing the coral skeleton is porous, in time, the skeleton would become home to the same organisms and bacterias that occupy your live rock. add to that a nice heavy coating of Coralline algae, and you have, for all intents and purposes, a chunk of live rock.




Pasfur said:


> Every marine aquarium needs a protein skimmer. They are not option.


Again, I disagree. I have seen a number of Fish Only systems (and even a few reefs) very effectively kept without the use of a protein skimmer. In fact, we have a very reputable LFS up our way that effectively runs a 10 gallon display reef with Live Rock, a few hardy soft corals, and a pair of small clownfish, equipped only with a small HOB bio-wheel filter. This tank has been in operation for several years and never looks as though it is unhealthy. I do agree in that, as personal opinion, I would highly recommend the use of a protein skimmer. It can however, be done without one. 




Pasfur said:


> You want to use aragonite sand only, at a minimum of 3'' depth, preferably 4''.


I'm curious as to the reasoning behind that statement. Would you mind providing an elaboration on that claim?


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

I'd be happy to elaborate. That is what i get for answering any question in a hurry...

On the live rock issue. As the question was presented, and after rereading the original question, it appears he is setting up an aquarium with artificial corals, a biological filter, and fish. In such a setup, even with the introduction of "live sand", the corals will never attain the level of microscopic life that is achieved in an aquarium which uses true live rock. That being said, i do agree with the concept of dead corals becoming "live", provided the corals are very porous, are introduced into an aquarium with high quality live rock, and a reasonable period of time passes. Even in this type environment, the artificial corals still never achieve the level of effectiveness of true live rock. You generally will not have very deep pores which allow for the growth of low oxygen bacteria inside an artificial coral, as you do in quality live rock.

On the skimmer issue, of course it is possible to maintain a system without one. In the 1980's it was stand place to use biological filters without skimmers. Unfortunately in that time there were massive system crashes and success was virtually unattainable for all but the most dedicated hobbyists. Given the low price of skimmers on the market today, i would consider it irresponsible to recommend that a beginner attempt to keep a system without one. And in this post, we clearly have a beginning marine fishkeeper asking the question. So yes, i do believe that every marine aquarium needs a skimmer and would never consider them to be an option. In other words, possibility does not negate need.

Ok, now sand. I'm not sure i understand exactly what to elaborate on. However, when reef systems first began they were run bare bottom with no substrate. Then the hobby "discovered" that denitrification can be achieved with the use of a plenum, which was achieved by raising the sand bed off the bottom of the aquarium using egg crate and screening. In theses systems, success varied, based on the types and depth of substrate being used. Different techniques were tried and different substrates were experimented with, nearly world wide. Magazine articles and internet chat rooms and forums were dominated by the discussion of the appropriate method. In the end, the best success rate has occurred with a 3'' to 4'' layer of sand of small particle size. Manufactures responded to the need, and today almost all aragonite sand is sold of appropriate grain size to achieve this success. My aquarium is a perfect example, testing zero Nitrate with a 4'' layer of aragonite. By the way, the plenum was discarded as unnecessary, and today the sand is placed directly on the bottom. Unfortunately, the almighty dollar and budget are still a consideration, and to many hobbyists today push the limits of what is acceptable. Meaning... they only use 2'' to 3'' of sand, which is simply not efficient depth to reduce water flow into the sand and provide areas of low oxygen craving bacteria to break Nitrate down into Nitrogen Gas.

So, overall we actually agree. I think.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Fish-addict said:


> Okay, so I will pick up some aragonite for substrate base, and I will get atleast 10 lbs of live sand for biological filtration.
> 
> As for the skimmer, I am thinking of getting this one:


I'm ok with that skimmer. It is very basic, but is a low cost option and better than nothing.

I would save your money on live sand and just buy aragonite and live rock. The extra expense of live sand is not worth the money, in my opinion.


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## SKAustin (Aug 1, 2006)

Pasfur said:


> I would save your money on live sand and just buy aragonite and live rock. The extra expense of live sand is not worth the money, in my opinion.


Motion seconded. If I might add, check your LFS, they may sell Live Sand by the pound. Ours here sells it for $3 per pound. If you can get a pound or two of live sand (real live sand from an established system) just add that into your new sand and viola! live sand. Okay, so it actually takes time for things to spread into and colonize the new sand, but it's a good start.


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## Fish-addict (Jun 11, 2008)

Pasfur said:


> Fish-addict said:
> 
> 
> > Okay, so I will pick up some aragonite for substrate base, and I will get atleast 10 lbs of live sand for biological filtration.
> ...


Live rock is tempting, but I am 100% against the harvest of rock from the ocean, as the ocean has a biological filter too. Soon, live rock could end up like oil and then it would become more expensive since people would have to aquaculture to sell it.


SKAustin said:



> Motion seconded. If I might add, check your LFS, they may sell Live Sand by the pound. Ours here sells it for $3 per pound. If you can get a pound or two of live sand (real live sand from an established system) just add that into your new sand and viola! live sand. Okay, so it actually takes time for things to spread into and colonize the new sand, but it's a good start.


I am going to setup the whole system that way, by using tufa rock/dead coral skeletons for rock, and getting live sand to get all that healthy bacteria that will soon grow onto the rocks.

As for the 4 inch sand bed, I am setting this tank up on a budget and I am probably just going with 20 lbs of substrate.

Oh, and I have one more question: Petsmart sells Caribsea live sand that seems to have alot of good bacteria in it, and Petco sells more expensive live sand that has lots of coralline algae on it, and other bright colors. (Caribsea=$18 per 10 lbs, Petco=$25 per 10 lbs)
Do the bright colors of Petco's live sand at all effect the amount of bacteria the sand has? Caribsea's sand seems to have all the necessary bacteria - http://caribsea.com/pages/products/ocean_direct.html


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Fish-addict said:


> Live rock is tempting, but I am 100% against the harvest of rock from the ocean, as the ocean has a biological filter too. Soon, live rock could end up like oil and then it would become more expensive since people would have to aquaculture to sell it.
> 
> I am going to setup the whole system that way, by using tufa rock/dead coral skeletons for rock, and getting live sand to get all that healthy bacteria that will soon grow onto the rocks.
> 
> As for the 4 inch sand bed, I am setting this tank up on a budget and I am probably just going with 20 lbs of substrate.


The large majority of fish are also taken from the ocean, with the exception of a few select species. As to live rock, a large portion today is actually biocultured. Rock is placed in the ocean and then removed at a later date for the aquarium hobby. So progress is being made in that area, although we have a long way to go. The only real way to protect our reefs is threw education, which is hopefully promoted by the hobby.

I do not envision you ever having the equivalent of live rock in your aquarium, unless you are willing to add some amount of live rock to see the system. The amount of life that springs from quality live rock is amazing and impossible to understand unless you witness the day to day changes that take place.

Finally, as i mentioned, one reason marine systems often do not succeed is that hobbyists cut costs far to often. If you want to cut costs, do so by purchasing inexpensive fish. But don't get off on a bad start by skimping on the aquatic environment.


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## Fish-addict (Jun 11, 2008)

Pasfur said:


> Fish-addict said:
> 
> 
> > Live rock is tempting, but I am 100% against the harvest of rock from the ocean, as the ocean has a biological filter too. Soon, live rock could end up like oil and then it would become more expensive since people would have to aquaculture to sell it.
> ...


I am trying to stop my dang impatience as much as possible, and I am often reminded not to keep cutting costs. 
You are the only person I know of who says a skimmer is a must for a 20g FOWLR, so I don't really think I need a skimmer if I use live sand and keep good water quallity in the tank. 
I also really do not know what a 4" sand bed will do for fish other than take up a gallon or two of swim room and aid biological filtration, but 4" just seems like a little much.
I know many people who have performed the tried and true technique of filling a saltwater aquarium with dead rock, and using live sand to get healthy bacteria/coralline algae to grow and colonize on the rocks, and they were all successful, with very healthy live rock.

I now have a question about stocking: I am planning to spend $25-$30 on live stock, and I am wanting to get 2 or maybe 3 fish. I had my eye on banggai cardinals,(I heard that they could be kept in 15+ gallons) and I was wondering if they needed to be in groups or not. Will two cardinals do okay with about 10 lbs of LR? (I do know that banggai cardinals get up to about 4/5 " in the wild, and I might have to give them up eventually.)


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Fish-addict said:


> You are the only person I know of who says a skimmer is a must for a 20g FOWLR, so I don't really think I need a skimmer if I use live sand and keep good water quallity in the tank.
> I also really do not know what a 4" sand bed will do for fish other than take up a gallon or two of swim room and aid biological filtration, but 4" just seems like a little much.
> I know many people who have performed the tried and true technique of filling a saltwater aquarium with dead rock, and using live sand to get healthy bacteria/coralline algae to grow and colonize on the rocks, and they were all successful, with very healthy live rock.


I think you are losing sight of the goal. Ask yourself this question... would you rather do large weekly water changes to keep Nitrates low, or would you rather have a deeper sand bed remove Nitrates from your system naturally? The cost of the sand will pay for itself in salt expense and saved time. Plus, the less you have to disturb the aquarium environment, the better it is for the fish. Without a skimmer and deep sand bed you will be changing large volumes of water regularly.

Unfortunately i have to disagree with your statement about the tried and true technique. I have been extremely active in this hobby for 18 years and i have not seen the success you describe, long term. Most of the systems you describe are "successful" on a temporary basis and then begin to have problems after 18 to 24 months. In fact, most of the systems set up with dead rock have non-stop algae problems and never see the rock become live, and certainly never have rock the quality of which is harvested from the ocean.

Please don't think I'm trying to be difficult or argue. I continue to post because this thread is a perfect example of what I am trying to prevent by taking the time to be here everyday. You are cutting to many corners and the odds of long term success are slim. The fish and your pocket book are at risk. I disagree because i have not only experienced these type of systems first hand, but have seen how easy a correctly set up system is to set up and maintain. And i have seen that a correctly set up system is more cost efficient over the long haul. My current system is very similar to the one you describe. But small details make a big difference in the marine hobby.

All of this being said, we are discussing aquarium set up technique as it should be applied in the hobby. In your very specific situation, you are considering fish that are almost indestructible. You could just about keep them alive in goldfish bowl. So, it won't be the end of the world for you to do what you are saying. PROVIDED that you stick with the fish you are naming. Do not try to push the bar. For example, a Coral Beauty or Flame Angel would be a very bad fish selection for you, despite their small size. 

At least i haven't been on the bully pulpit about the benefits of a UV sterilizer. 8)


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## Fish-addict (Jun 11, 2008)

Wow, thx. It's just that you were one of the only two people I know who said I'd need a skimmer, and I didn't know anyone who said 4 inches of sand was a must for adequate biological filtration. LMAO, I know someone who had success with just plain old aquarium decor, an HOB filter, powerhead, and freshwater aquarium sand. 

How does it sound if I get 15 lbs of live sand, stick with the two cardinals, and perform a 10% water change every week?


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

I want to be clear on this point. Traditional biological filtration does not require a deep sand bed. Your aquarium will process ammonia into Nitrite, into Nitrate effectively with less than 3'' of sand. However, to achieve denitrification, you will need a minimum of 3''. Denitrification completes the biological filtration process, with Nitrate becoming Nitrogen Gas.

Now, back to your question. My instinct is that 10% weekly water changes will not be sufficient to keep Nitrates below 20ppm, which is the general goal in a fish aquarium. However, this question can not be answered until you are testing Nitrate on a weekly basis and monitoring how fast it builds in your system. 

Using simple math, look at these examples: 

If Nitrates build at a rate of 10ppm per week, then a weekly 25% water change would allow Nitrates to settle between 30ppm and 40ppm. In such a system, a 10% weekly water change would allow Nitrates to settle between 90ppm and 100ppm on a permanent basis. Further, a 50% weekly water change would be needed to keep Nitrates below 20ppm.

If Nitrates build at a rate of 5ppm per week, then a weekly 25% water change would allow Nitrates to settle between 15ppm and 20ppm and a 10% weekly water change would allow Nitrates to settle between 45ppm and 50ppm.

Looking at these numbers, you can quickly see how the amount of livestock makes a huge difference in the amount of water that needs to be changed. The addition of a protein skimmer will dramatically lower the production of Nitrate. Additionally, the use of a deep sand bed will biologically lower the levels of Nitrate.


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## SKAustin (Aug 1, 2006)

Fish-addict said:


> Wow, thx. It's just that you were one of the only two people I know who said I'd need a skimmer, and I didn't know anyone who said 4 inches of sand was a must for adequate biological filtration. LMAO, I know someone who had success with just plain old aquarium decor, an HOB filter, powerhead, and freshwater aquarium sand.
> 
> How does it sound if I get 15 lbs of live sand, stick with the two cardinals, and perform a 10% water change every week?


I hate to say this, but you really do seem to be directing yourself towards a less than enjoyable hobby experience. While I personally disagree with the need for a DSB in the display, that may be because I advocate for the use of a sump with a refugium, in which a DSB can be incorporated and equally effective. 

Do you need a Skimmer? No, but again, as Mark stated earlier given the cost of Skimmers these days, and the benefits they provide, You would be foolish not to make the investment. I would highly recommend that you heed that piece of advice.

As for the use of dead rock coupled with Live sand, How much life do you really expect to find in a bag of live sand? By adding live rock, you are introducing a vast number of beneficial hitchhikers such as feather dusters, spionid worms, vermitid snails, spirorbid worms, forams, tunicates, amphipods, copepods, mysid shrimp, bristle worms, spaghetti worms, peanut worms, cerith snails, stomatella snails, mini brittle stars, asterina stars and collinista snails. I have every one of these in my system, all of which were brought in on live rock. All of these provide a very beneficial service for your system. None of these come in a bag of live sand. I'm not saying you need these in your tank to succeed, but they certainly make things easier, and provide you with a much more enjoyable experience in the hobby.


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## Fish-addict (Jun 11, 2008)

Now I see where you are going on the deep sand bed requirement. 3" it is. Do you think 30 lbs will provide a 3" sand bed in a 20g tall?
As for the live rock, I will probably get 5 lbs for bacteria/hitchhikers.

You guys have helped me alot, and I think I will have alot better of a saltwater aquarium because of your advice. Before I posted this thread, I was somehow wanting to have my tank up and running before the end of summer


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## SKAustin (Aug 1, 2006)

Fish-addict said:


> Before I posted this thread, I was somehow wanting to have my tank up and running before the end of summer


If you take a few extra months to prepare and research, you'll be far better off in the long run. 

Personally, I would give yourself an extra 6 months to research (and save up a bit), then start a reef instead of a fish-only. But that's just me. You do what will make you happy. 

Regardless, the more you learn before you start, the better off you are in the end. Thanks for giving us the opportunity to share our knowledge as well.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Fish-addict said:


> Now I see where you are going on the deep sand bed requirement. 3" it is. Do you think 30 lbs will provide a 3" sand bed in a 20g tall?


Yes.


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## Fish-addict (Jun 11, 2008)

SKAustin said:


> Fish-addict said:
> 
> 
> > Before I posted this thread, I was somehow wanting to have my tank up and running before the end of summer
> ...


I don't think I have the money to do reef. Reef will mean more test kits, a skimmer, light bulbs I will have to change constantly, more water circulation, a refractometer, UV sterilizer, more knowledge, and chemicals. Since I am a begginner, I want to try keeping a fish only system for atleast a year or two before I move onto anything fancy. 
Lol, a while ago since I didn't have much money to spend on saltwater supplies, I had TONS of time to research, as it was all I could do at the time that had to do with a saltwater tank. There's no such thing as knowing 'all about saltwater' lol.

Does anyone on this site use a Red sea hydrometer? I bought one recently, and the swing-arm will not even move, no matter how salty the water is. I followed the instructions EXACTLY, and the temp. is between 75 and 79 degrees F. (I am using Red sea salt) I contacted Red sea about this, but I haven't gotten a reply yet.
Oh, and no, I am not looking to buy a refractometer.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Fish-addict said:


> I don't think I have the money to do reef. Reef will mean more test kits, a skimmer, light bulbs I will have to change constantly, more water circulation, a refractometer, UV sterilizer, more knowledge, and chemicals.


For the reader... Although i personally use a UV on my reef, most hobbyists do not recommend UV sterilizers for a reef system. Additionally, the use of a refractometer is optional and not an everyday need.


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## SKAustin (Aug 1, 2006)

Mark, Just a quick Q on your use of UV. Have you noted any negatives to it's use? I personally don't use one, but have considered it. My hippo tang occasionally gets spots of ich among other things, but so far I've been lucky and it's cleared up in a day or so. Usually when I go messing with something in the tank, she pops up with it again for a day or so, but otherwise, she's fine. I have the UV here, just never got around to hooking it up. I don't know if I really want to go hooking it up if I don't need to. But I'm curious as to any obvious pitfalls to using one.


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## Fish-addict (Jun 11, 2008)

I finally managed to mix the salt water in a small bucket of about 2 gallons. I currently have the live sand at the bottom, which clouded up the water alot and made the water look like I had scooped it out of the ocean. How long do you think it will take for the water to clear up? do you think a powerhead would just aggitate the water, or help it clear up faster? The HOB filter died when I tried to use it, but there was way too much filter media inside. I will try it again with just a filter cartridge.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

SKAustin said:


> Mark, Just a quick Q on your use of UV. Have you noted any negatives to it's use? I personally don't use one, but have considered it. My hippo tang occasionally gets spots of ich among other things, but so far I've been lucky and it's cleared up in a day or so. Usually when I go messing with something in the tank, she pops up with it again for a day or so, but otherwise, she's fine. I have the UV here, just never got around to hooking it up. I don't know if I really want to go hooking it up if I don't need to. But I'm curious as to any obvious pitfalls to using one.


This is such a touchy issue i almost decided to message a response offline. But I decided that any free exchange of ideas is worth talking about.
So... warning to the reading. THE HOBBY DOES NOT AGREE WITH ME.

So, here goes. I do not buy into the concept that a UV is damaging in a reef system. I would challenge anyone to provide concrete evidence. My system is full of copepods, amphipods, feather dusters and spionid worms. I do not believe that anything beneficial to a marine system is floating in the water column. The UV can only kill what floats and is sucked into the intake. 

In fact, i would suggest the opposite to be true. If it floats, it is bad. The UV kills water born bacteria, pathogens, and parasites that are responsible for the spread of disease in the aquarium. It also eliminates any water born dinoflatiglates that could tint the water and reduce light penetration. 
(Off topic... I also believe the UV usage goes hand in hand with carbon, which removes acids that tint the water and reduce light penetration.)

That being said, I do take a few small precautions, just in case i am wrong. I use a very slow flow rate threw the UV, increasing the likelihood that what passes thew the unit is actually killed. I also only run the UV for 12 hours per day. I have it timed to function like the tides... only without the seasonal changes. 

Honestly, i can not even begin to express the quality of success I have seen in systems with UV's as compared to those without. At this point in my fishkeeping life, I won't even set up a delicate FW system without one.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Fish-addict said:


> I finally managed to mix the salt water in a small bucket of about 2 gallons. I currently have the live sand at the bottom, which clouded up the water alot and made the water look like I had scooped it out of the ocean. How long do you think it will take for the water to clear up? do you think a powerhead would just aggitate the water, or help it clear up faster? The HOB filter died when I tried to use it, but there was way too much filter media inside. I will try it again with just a filter cartridge.


Until the water clears, i would point the powerhead towards the surace of the aquarium, allowing dust to settle on top of the sand. Don't worry, this happens almost every time you set up a marine system. It should be crystal clear in 24 to 48 hours.

I'm not sure how the media inside your HOB could cause it to die. It could cause an overflow, in theory, or cause the intake to overflow back into the aquarium, but it could not cause the unit to die. It sounds like you need to clean the impeller. If you need help with this, just ask.


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## Fish-addict (Jun 11, 2008)

Pasfur said:


> Fish-addict said:
> 
> 
> > I finally managed to mix the salt water in a small bucket of about 2 gallons. I currently have the live sand at the bottom, which clouded up the water alot and made the water look like I had scooped it out of the ocean. How long do you think it will take for the water to clear up? do you think a powerhead would just aggitate the water, or help it clear up faster? The HOB filter died when I tried to use it, but there was way too much filter media inside. I will try it again with just a filter cartridge.
> ...


I just had a thick amount of filter fiber inside rather than a bio-bag, and the filter just couldn't take all of the detritus it was taking in along with working through more filter media than it was made too.
The foam seems to be gone from the live sand bucket, although I still can't see the sand at the bottom. I dropped in a few rocks to see if they'd 'come alive' over time.


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