# What do we really need?



## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Hi everyone! New here (came over from one of the sister forums- dogforum)... 

I hate posting stuff like this but I need some advice. My husband came home with a 20 gallon tank a couple of weeks ago (that he got for free) and is dead set on setting it up. He knows nothing about fish keeping and neither do I but I am the "googler" of the two so I am trying to help... Please excuse the totally silly questions but I need to be able to find out more so we know where to start. Talking him out of it is not an option.

A friend of ours who has a 100 gallon saltwater tank took us to a fish store and my husband fell in love with fresh water angel fish. I agreed that freshwater would also be easier and cheaper...somewhat. 

I read the stickies on cycling the tank and tried to explain to him it's not just adding water, plants and fish but I am still somewhat confused. Try to keep it as simple as possible because the most fish I've ever kept was a betta... Sad I know..

Would we be able to get gravel, 2 live plants and maybe one or two hardy fish to start the tank and get the angels later? Any recommendations on what type of plants? He wanted 6 angel fish at first but that's insane to me for a 20 gallon so I convinced him on 2 only and maybe a couple of docile bottom feeders?

What are your thoughts? What do we really need to start?

Thermostat? Any water conditioner? The fish store sells water that's de chlorinated already... Will it work to add plants and a couple of fish ? What kind of fish can we start with that will get along with 2 angel fish later? The tank has a light and filter (clean) already... Runs fine. We were also planning to get a timer for the light?

Anything else I need to know?

Like I said I am sorry for asking so many questions..just need some personalized advice. 

Many thanks! 

I also should mention I am trying to set it up as soon as possible just for the fact that it's been in our living room for a month and I'd like to see it set up since he's not going to sell it or give it away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

I suggest 20g for angel fish is way too small.

I plant the tank heavily with a mix of fast growing (anacharis/vals) and slower growing (potted, amason swords) plants. Then let the tank set a week. then add a single fish and not add food for the next week. then stock up more completely and start very light feedings. (1 flake per day).

With that method I have had tanks that ran from up to 9 years with descendants of the original cycle trio.


Just a thought.

Worth at most. 02


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Okay.. Thanks for the reply and advice. Makes sense. Do we need a thermostat that you stick on the side of the tank?
Also, I was under the impression that angel fish only grow to the size of the tank so 2 in a 20 gallon would be okay. Borderline but okay.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lucklein (Oct 10, 2012)

I agree with beaslbob. The fish profiles on this forum (click on tropical fish profiles above) suggest a tank length of 48 inches. That's about a 55 gallon, I believe. Angels can get quite large and a 20 gallon will not work for them. I got mine late last winter and they were about the size of a nickle. Now, less than a year later, their bodies are about three inches and then add to that their long fins, just to give you an idea of how quickly they grow. Hope this info helps. (they enjoy living with Amazon Sword plants)


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

hello and warm welcome :-D
it won't hurt to have a thermometer on the side of the tank,so you can keep an
eye on the temperature in the tank,instead of relying solely on the heater.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Fishybusiness said:


> Okay.. Thanks for the reply and advice. Makes sense. Do we need a thermostat that you stick on the side of the tank?
> Also, I was under the impression that angel fish only grow to the size of the tank so 2 in a 20 gallon would be okay. Borderline but okay.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No. There are fundamental reasons why fish are given minimum tank sizes and this is for the simple fact that putting fish in a tank too small poses serious health problems. Health problems caused by keeping a fish in a tank that is too small may include skeletal deformities, digestive problems, and weakening of the skin and scales. All fish will have their immune systems repressed when they are kept in a tank that is too small or too crowded. This results in more frequent outbreaks of disease, and to be honest, messed up fish.

I myself bought a 55 gallon tall tank as thats all i had room for in the cubby its in and i wanted balas and clown loaches. I really REALLY wanted them. i still do. But my tank just isnt capable of allowing me to have them. i nearly even went out and got them anyway, on the notion of 'I'll get a bigger tank in 6 months' But what if i dont? Might lose my job, blah blah, and i would have be lamped with fish that i would have had to give away in 3 months. 

So i took the other route, i researched and researched, asked a million questions on here and found other fish that i liked and loved. And i couldnt be happier with my tank now. Well, i want a Queen Arabesque Pleco right now, but my tank just isnt mature enough yet IMO. This is unfortunately the game we play with fish. Its a sucky hobby at times- you just cant have what you want always - but well worth it when you get things right and you see that happy little buggers swimming about. 

All in all, why put your fish in the absolute minimum they can handle and risk all the above, dont we all want happy fish?


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Fishybusiness said:


> Hi everyone! New here (came over from one of the sister forums- dogforum)...


Hello! Welcome to TFK! :-D



Fishybusiness said:


> I hate posting stuff like this but I need some advice. My husband came home with a 20 gallon tank a couple of weeks ago (that he got for free) and is dead set on setting it up. He knows nothing about fish keeping and neither do I but I am the "googler" of the two so I am trying to help... Please excuse the totally silly questions but I need to be able to find out more so we know where to start. Talking him out of it is not an option.


Free stuff is always good! Questions are good too! Better to have a good plan of what you are doing so you don't make any dumb mistakes!



Fishybusiness said:


> A friend of ours who has a 100 gallon saltwater tank took us to a fish store and my husband fell in love with fresh water angel fish. I agreed that freshwater would also be easier and cheaper...somewhat.


Haha! Not always the case! ;-)



Fishybusiness said:


> I read the stickies on cycling the tank and tried to explain to him it's not just adding water, plants and fish but I am still somewhat confused. Try to keep it as simple as possible because the most fish I've ever kept was a betta... Sad I know..


About the cycle... (copied from something I wrote up for betta keepers ) If there is anything in particular you are not clear on let me know..

*About the Nitrogen Cycle:
*There is tons of info on this, but I want to sum this up as briefly as possible. The nitrogen cycle is when you "grow" bacteria in your tank, on your filter and everything else in the tank. Fish produce ammonia, which is bad for them, it damages their bodies, causing burns and death. The bacteria consume the ammonia, and produce nitrite. Now, nitrite isn't any better and can do just as much damage as ammonia, so another type of bacteria consumes it to make nitrates. Nitrates are the last step of the cycle, and are much less toxic, but still hurt in the long run, which is why it's important to do weekly water changes of 30-50% in a cycled aquarium.




Fishybusiness said:


> Would we be able to get gravel, 2 live plants and maybe one or two hardy fish to start the tank and get the angels later? Any recommendations on what type of plants? He wanted 6 angel fish at first but that's insane to me for a 20 gallon so I convinced him on 2 only and maybe a couple of docile bottom feeders?


As has been mentioned, 20 gallons is simply too small for angel fish. :-( I _really _hate to say it, as you are basically being told "no!" before you even get started with your dreams, but a regular angel fish can reach 6" long with a height of up to 10", making it rather impractical for a 20 gallon tank. If you really want the angels you might consider selling the 20 gallon and making room for a 55 gallon (which would allow a group of 6 angel fish). You can read more about them here- Scalare Angelfish.



Fishybusiness said:


> What are your thoughts? What do we really need to start?
> Thermostat? Any water conditioner? The fish store sells water that's de chlorinated already... Will it work to add plants and a couple of fish ? What kind of fish can we start with that will get along with 2 angel fish later? The tank has a light and filter (clean) already... Runs fine. We were also planning to get a timer for the light?


*Substrate- *Thought aquarium pea gravel is a common choice, if you are planning on live plants, I'd highly recommend buying play sand (from a hardware store) instead. Plants just seem to do so much better with sand, and it allows you to have a larger variety of bottom dwellers (fish like corydoras and kuhli loaches do much better on sand). However if you are set on gravel, the plants will still do fine in it, Amazon swords should be able to handle it as well as floating plants.

*Lighting- *If you are planning on live plants a proper bulb is needed to grow them. Hopefully someone else can help as this isn't my favorite subject. Flourescent is most popular with plants, they do sell bulbs at fish stores but if you know what you are looking for a hardware store is a great place to get light bulbs. (Colour temperature of at least 5500 kelvins is required I believe!) A timer for the light is fine to have.. Generally with plants you are looking at 10-12 hours of light a day.

*Heater-* A good heater is useful for keeping tropical fish at a steady temperature (though some choose not to if their house can keep the water warm enough). Generally heaters will say what tank size they are good for. I would not go cheap on a heater bad brands (like "Top Fin") are much more likely to break and just be a waste of money. I use Fluval heaters but there are a few good brands out there. Be sure to have a thermometer in the tank as well!

*Water Conditioner-* Really any good old water conditioner will do here- they are all pretty much the same, but it's still important to have one! I wouldn't bother buying already dechlorinated water.. Much easier (and I'm sure cost efficient) to take home a bottle of conditioner than gallons and gallons of water.

*Water Test Kit- *Probably the most vital tool.. API Liquid Master Test Kit will cover you for testing all the basics. It does not come with tests for water hardness (dH) and carbonate hardness (kH), but you can find these out from a water report from you city. If you're on a well most pet shops will also test these for you free of charge.

*Filter- *Just want to make a note that if the filter has carbon in it, I'd recommend taking it out. The general consensus is that these days carbon is no longer needed (except when removing medication from water). Especially if you are planning on live plants-- the carbon will suck up any plant fertilizers you will use.

*Plants-* If you stock well with fast growing plants you technically can stock immediately. Plants such as Egeria densa, Hygrophila difformis, Hygrophila polysperma, and Ceratophyllum demersum, are some fast growing plants that will make it easier to stock fish immediately and go through a "silent" cycle, meaning you will likely not see any ammonia in the tank ever (if this method is done right). 

There are no guidelines for how many plants you need for however many fish. My advice, start as heavy on plants as possible and light on fish. Test water and if it stays perfect, you know your plants are doing their job and can slowly raise your fish amount up.




Fishybusiness said:


> Anything else I need to know?


I think you are good for basics.. Someone else will chip in if I missed anything.. Start having a look through our tropical fish profiles at the top of the page to maybe get some ideas on how to stock. 

If you keep the 20 gallon- I am wondering what the dimensions are? Likely 30"x12"x12" or 24"x12"x16"?



Fishybusiness said:


> Like I said I am sorry for asking so many questions..just need some personalized advice. Many thanks!
> 
> I also should mention I am trying to set it up as soon as possible just for the fact that it's been in our living room for a month and I'd like to see it set up since he's not going to sell it or give it away.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No worries. We are here to answer your questions. :-D


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Oh man... I just about want to hit my hubby over the head with a frying pan... Or better yet, put him in the tank! 

Thanks everyone for ALL the answers and comments!!! They are much appreciated. I am so frustrated. Olympia, special thanks for the "fish for dummies" detailed answers! 

For starters, the tank 24x12x16. It's on a stand, looks pretty etc. This is NOT my dream. I love fish..mostly looking at them. Caring for them is out of my league and I will the first to tell you I know nothing. Whatever I learned so far I learned by googling and answers like this. 

I honestly feel overwhelmed. He will NOT give away the tank and I am done trying to convince him of how much work it is. He's not the type to sit here and read about levels, nitrates, bacteria and all of the above. To make matters worse, our friend that he trusts (and ussually knows his stuff) insists that our tank can house 2 angels. I believe you guys and understand why it's not ideal or best for the fish, etc. I am fine with him picking up ANY fish that are low maintance. I do not see him doing water cycle changes, testing water or any of that. Guess who I see doing that? ME!

I am sorry if this is turning into more of a rant. I want to make this work because he's a kid at heart and really wants this but I want to make sure it's manageble. 

I have no clue whether the tank has a heater lamp..it does have a lamp.. Geez! (Feeling like an idiot).
I also have no idea if the filer has carbon. It does look brand new though (very clean).
I am assuming the people that gave him the tank couldn't manage the fish anymore and they all died (they probably put a bunch of angel fish in there!!!). It came VERY dirty...

Anyways... 
So I don't know if we have a heater (thermostat), or non carbon filter.

We'll need API testing and I have to google water harness from the city? SMH


We live in South Florida and the house temp is about 75F so do we need a heater? 

We can then add gravel, and a lot of plants... Ditto on the plants mentioned (thanks for that)... 

Let it run for a week like that? 
This honestly seems like a lot. I guess like anything we don't know, it seems hard at first. 

Hoping in a few months I'll be on here laughing at my own frustration. 

Any advice on the types of fish. I will try to talk him out of angel fish.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

Welcome from Ontario, Canada. We're so glad you ended up here looking for answers! 
You said your temperature is 75... what is the worst case scenario? If the temp in winter dropped outside? That will help us guide you whether you even need one. If members felt you did it would likely be one for back up, ie if it got really cold... or if you choose fish that need 80 degrees. 
We are all here to help you. Keep researching and asking questions.


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## Canadian Fish (Feb 12, 2012)

Nobody here is going to recommend a fishless cycle, but let me tell you how I cycled my first 20 gallon tank, so that you know it is not daunting. 

I live in Canada so I don't know if you can get away without a heater, obviously here we need them. They're not expensive for a 20 gallon. I would air on the side of caution and have one just in case, though someone here might from a warmer climate may confirm you don't need one.

You absolutely need a thermometer, otherwise, you won't know what the temp is in your tank.

Other than that, any filter rated for a 20 gallon tank. Options include Topfin 20 (petsmart), tetra whisper 20, or Aquaclear 20. I prefer the aquaclear. 

I just used regular aquarium gravel and the lighting that came with my tank. For the record, you can grow many low light plants with this setup. You will need to use liquid fetilizer and tabs, but if you want to keep it simple, get plastic, I did for my first tank. 

Then get a dechloriinator, Tetra Aquasafe, or Prime is the big one used around here. 

This is sounding complicated. This is what we did, in a nutshell:

*Added the substrate (gravel) to the tank. Added dechlorinated water. Put in the filter, heater, and thermometer (you may also want an air pump/bubble blower, up to you). Waited 2 days, with everything turned on. Added 3 platies. Got my water checked at the local fish store once a week, did water changes when they told me to. That tank cycled really fast (3 weeks), then I started adding more fish. *

I still have those platies, and that tank, it is on the left under "community". I have since added driftwood and decorations. But if you want to get started easy, just do the above. I know it can seem so complicated that it isn't worth it if you're not really into it. Start off this easy way, and eventually you will want to add more fish, and more fish, and that leads to more tanks. 

You'll need some sort of gravel vac/hose and a bucket to do water changes. Expect to do a 25-30% water change every one to two weeks for the rest of your life, lol. It's not as bad as it sounds, and it's quick with a 20 gallon. Just always make sure when you add new water you dechlorinate, and try to add water that is the same temperature as your tank. 

Everyone is correct about the angels being too large for a 20 gallon, sorry.


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## Canadian Fish (Feb 12, 2012)

Olympia said:


> *Filter- *Just want to make a note that if the filter has carbon in it, I'd recommend taking it out. The general consensus is that these days carbon is no longer needed (except when removing medication from water). Especially if you are planning on live plants-- the carbon will suck up any plant fertilizers you will use.


This is good to know, thanks. I knew carbon wasn't recommended anymore, (and I only use the one that comes with the filter, I have never bought and added one after that) but I did not know it would kill my ferts. I knew it would kill medication, but not the fertilizer. I'm lucky once I added plants my carbon was already spent.


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

We get maybe a week (split up) of "winter" weather outside which is about 60F. In the house, the coldest it ever gets is 75F. We run an A/C unit 24/7/365. 


Okay, so I calmed down a little and took a look at the filter... It's a Tetra PF10. Now I'm assuming that the 10 means it's meant for a 10 gallon, not a 20? Please tell me I'm wrong because now it would mean we'd need a filter... * I googled it and it's this: Tetra Whisper PF10 Filtration System at PETCO


BTW... it DOES have a separate carbon filter next to the white filter. I will take it out and will also get a thermostat just to monitor the temp.

Now, thanks for the explanation...and calming me down a bit Canadian fish. I had started feeling overwhelmed and I don't want him to kill any poor fish but it was a lot of info.

With the testing, what do I need to test for if I buy the tests myself? I'm assuming it depends on the type of fish we get? 

Regarding the plants, my hubby (and actually me too) really like the look of real plants. Hopefully we can manage to keep them alive! I don't really want to run a fish less cycle because I'm tired of staring at the empty tank myself so I'd be happy to get some starter fish.

My issue is now convincing him which fish he SHOULD get vs what he wants to get. There is just so much crap online and on youtube about being able to keep angel fish in small tanks. He did like some of the neon tetras and sharks...Sorry forgot the name of them.

I wish I could say last question but I can't...lol I know I will have more. What can I use to safely clean the tank before we start this ? He cleaned it but it's got scum still on some areas (from sitting water I'm assuming) but I don't want to use something that will leave residue.

BTW...nice tank!!!


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## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

Vinegar and a clean scrubby, the no soap kind, and NOT the metal kind. plastic fiber kind. 
Keep it with your tank supplies, you will need it again when you get some algae. 
Vinegar works wonders on calcium build up... then rinse, and rinse. 
Don't waste your money on water that is dechlorinated already unless you find your water to be really bad, extremely hard or has high ammonia out of the tap... we can decide that later once you get to testing your water. 
A Liquid Freshwater testing kit is the best, it comes with instructions, little test tubes, and you can test your tank's situation any time you need to, or regularly in those start up weeks. Test strips can become very unreliable especially when you live in humid climates and the container gets left open or not closed properly, false readings occur in them. My experience is cycling takes a big longer,... more to 6-8 weeks but this is all shortened to nil if you have a lot of live plants as the plants take up the Ammonia in their processes. And any water change needs De-chlorinator to take out or neutralize the Chlorine in the tap water. Prime is an excellent product, costs a bit more, but you use less of it.


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Okay so I am reading on fish profiles. There are SO many options. I think we need to go to the fish store, write down some of the ones we find interesting and then come home and look them up. Otherwise I'm going to be reading about fish for weeks.

So far I think I like (hubby is not here for input) platies, tetra, zebra danio.... I especially like the 
Electric Yellow Cichlids but the suggested tank size is 55 so that option is OUT!If you guys had a 20 gallon...what fish would you recommend? Something colorful... *:shock:
*


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

Welcome aboard!

"We live in South Florida and the house temp is about 75F so do we need a heater? "

Probably yes. It depends upon the fish as some are not tolerant of low temperatures. We had one fellow post here not long ago that he lived in Florida and they and a cold snap, he lost some fish due most likely to the cold over a weekend. He had no heater. Even just setting it slightly below your normal water temp it is a backup. 

I started looking at tanks, 20 gal was an early thought and I wanted angels... They do not fit as others have said already.

The route I am going is to set up the tank with plants and sand, letting it mellow, then testing to see what the water is going to be like. That will determine what sort of fish are likely to do well and let me just use untreated tap water for water changes. I got myself off of the idea that "I want this fish and that fish and maybe some of these". We'll end up going with what works. 

My trials and tribulations in setting this tank up are over here if you want to see how it goes. It's a 37 gallon which isn't too far off the 20 gallon considerations. 

Jeff.


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## Canadian Fish (Feb 12, 2012)

If you want live plants, add them right away, and that will really help with cycling.

I'm assuming the "10" in your filter name means it is for a 10 gallon. I would get a 20. 

I just ask my LFS which plants are low light, as I do not have any fancy lighting. I use Flourish Comp liquid fertilizer twice a week (when I remember). Decholinator kills the ferts so add them the day after a water change, not the day before or the same day. Also, you can get fertilizer tabs that go in the substrate next to your plants' roots. They last a few months. 

I had never kept live plants before September and they are super easy. Now I'm changing all my tanks over, including my 20. 

Just for the record, I have never had a tank take 8 weeks to cycle (I'm sure it does happen), usually 3 to 5. But like Jakie said, live plants will cut this down significantly anyway. 

Good luck! Looking forward to seeing how this progresses. Once you get it set up, it's a piece of cake. Water changes on a 20 are quick and painless.


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## Canadian Fish (Feb 12, 2012)

Canadian Fish said:


> Nobody here is going to recommend a fishless cycle


Nobody here is going to recommend cycling with fish, is what I meant to say, surprised no one called me on it, haha. 

EVERYBODY here is going to recommend a fishless cycle. Except me. I recommend it too, but if you're overwhelmed, throwing in 3 platies is easy, and with live plants, should be fine.

Without live plants will work too, if you go that way. The plants make it easier on the fish.


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Canadian Fish said:


> Nobody here is going to recommend cycling with fish, is what I meant to say, surprised no one called me on it, haha.
> 
> EVERYBODY here is going to recommend a fishless cycle. Except me. I recommend it too, but if you're overwhelmed, throwing in 3 platies is easy, and with live plants, should be fine.
> 
> Without live plants will work too, if you go that way. The plants make it easier on the fish.


OH!  We do want live plants and since it seems better for the fish, then we'll do that... started a new thread about fish recommendation (trying to narrow questions down).


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Live plants are definitely the way to go. They really are very easy to keep and the benefits are many.

As everyone has already pointed out a thermometer would definitely be worth the purchase, for the sake of 10/30 $ in a cold snap it'll save your fish.

Now, and this is normally a problem of mine and it gets me in trouble. I just tell it straight. But if I were you, I'd tell your husband unless he's willing to learn what you have about the nitrogen cycle/cleaning etc etc etc then he'll just have to accept the fish you pick, as this looks like its becoming your tank very quickly. :shock: I'm a big kid at heart too and this tank really is my fire truck, soon to be fire fleet :-D , and normally I dive into stuff headfirst and worry later, but tbh the more I learn in this hobby the more I want to. 

As for the cycling and work involved, my new tank has been up now for around 5 weeks and I kind of miss all the work. Early days I was on daily 120ltr water changes to keep nitrite levels down and it was a bit of graft but I loved it, whereas now I have to sort of force myself to just let it be for 7 days till the next change etc as once tanks start to stabilise they really become almost no work. It's all about them first few weeks where you work hard and fall in love though for me (probably why tank 2 is set up already!!!)


As another thing you have said about putting substrate in now- what is your substrate? Certain fish like cories and loaches require a much finer gravel, or sand to busy themselves in and protect the delicate barbells on them as they do so it's worth considering if any of these are on your shopping list before you do put it in. Changing later would be harder, but then there's other things to consider like ease of cleaning and water clarity that come with these too, e.g sand is a lighter and more likely to hang water espec early on and also what type- playsand is the recommended if you want it and much cheaper too. I yabbered on a bit there and want to continue to but I'll stop now.


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

Hey! I live in Florida too, so happy to find a fellow Floridian! Most of these people are Canadian, it seems 

On the topic of the heater - My house is kept at a toasty 82 degrees most of the time. I have a heater in my tank, to keep the water as stable as possible. However, a few weeks ago said heater broke, and I could not afford a new one. The water dropped to about 72 degrees, from the 79 its set at. Luckily I didn't lose any fish, but as you can see the water can get much colder than the outside air :/ I recommend a heater just to keep the temp stable, although you can get away with a smaller heater, say for a 10 gallon, since your house isn't kept very cold.

On fish - I know it seems SO tempting to just get what you like, but when you really think about it, how fair is that to them? I know your husband is probably really temped by those angels, but those babys can get about 8inches high. I've seen full grown adults at the petstore in 10gallon tanks, and those poor things can't do more than just sit there. They get positively massive.

I also just got into the hobby a few months ago. It is SO overwhelming, I know. I still haven't mastered it. I do suppose I had a bit of a jump though, I eased myself into it, and here you are thrown into it. It can sound daunting and hard and to be honest it can be, there have been times where I just want to throw in the towel and cry. But as I can see your an animal lover, I am positive you will fall in love with your fish and strive to do good by them.

I have a 35 gallon, not much larger than yours. There are so many options for us, of fish that will thrive and be happy in tanks our size. The site aqadivsor can be very helpful for you in giving you a 'rough sketch' of fish that will enjoy your tank.

I did a very similar thing to what you said. I went to all my fish stores and wrote down the names of every fish I even remotely liked, went home, and googled as much info as possible. It's a very good start. 

I live in Central FL, I'm not sure if we're close or not. I'm more than willing to lend a hand


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Thanks for the responses guys. Nilet... I haven't chosen a substrate or fish yet. I was considering gravel (pebble like) just because I like the look of them. I suppose that's one more thing to add to my list of things to research. 

I don't want it to become mine and neither does he but he's not doing any research so... You're right. Unless he is willing to sit here and google as much as I am, then I get to pick the fish. I refuse to let him just throw stuff in there and then they all die or it's a mess. I have a slight case of OCD so I "must maintain order". This "friend" of ours isn't exactly a good influence because instead of talking him out of the tank, he talked him into it even more and the advice is not what I expected. 

Jentrala, I am in South Florida... Glad to meet a fellow Floridian as well. Thanks for all the advice. 

We're suppose to get this done this weekend so tomorrow after work I'll go by myself, look at fish, write down the names, research and THEN go with him Saturday. Atleast I'll be armed with more info and know what we're getting, and he can feel like he's picking the fish and plants. SMH

I'll check that site out also. I've learned more about fish in the last few hours than I ever cared to know. Like I said, don't misunderstand, I love animals in general just didn't think I was up for this challenge so I never bothered to get into it. 


Sigh...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

Welcome to the basket of cats! (aka: crazy people's club) ;-)

Fishkeeping is one of those things I never thought I would do either! And then I had this friend yammering on and on about her tank and the individual personalities of her fish and I was like Wait! They have personailities?!? And then that faithful day I went to WalMart and got my Betta. It snowballed from there. I actually realized how much fun it was! Very relaxing. I now have a 10gal with a male Betta, 3 mystory snails, and a ghost shrimp. Did I make mistakes? You bet your aunt fanny I did! Goof ups, misstocking, and plane old how the heck did that happens. And before that faithful day comees and you start kicking yourself, you're gonna kill something. Or have something die for no apperent reason. Rather you're new or vested, we're all human and we all make mistakes, but we learn from them. And you are avoiding a lot of them just by asking all these awesome people ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

I understand, there is a lot of information about fish out there, and it can be very daunting if it's not something you had interest in, in the first place. I can understand that, as this tank has been just kind of thrown on your shoulders. 

The main thing right now is to just take it slow. Don't feel like you're in a rush to fill the tank, you really have all the time in the world  I'd just start slow and get the equipment you need, which so far I believe is
1) A new filter rated for 20 gallons. (A relatively cheap one can be gotten from Walmart, not the best but hey, it works. I have one.)
2) A thermometer. Can also be gotten at Walmart, very cheap.
3) A heater. Can be bought at many locations, check out online stores! eBay, Drs. Foster and Smith, etc.
4) A vacuum hose. These are about $10 at Walmart, as well. Depending on how you do your water changes, you may either need longer tubing or a 5/10 gallon bucket.
I actually drain my tank out my bedroom window into the plants outside, and fill my tank directly from the water hose after pre-conditioning my tank. We can get into that later, though.

It may take awhile to be able to afford some of these things, but trust me, it's worth it. It will save a lot of frustration.

Then you'll need to look into some of the specifics.
1) A water purifier/dechlorinator. I would just bite the bullet and get the best one you can instead of a Walmart brand, most recommend Seachem Prime. I actually have been trying out API StressCoat, and it's been working well for me so far. It's a bit cheaper, also.
2) A test kit. API Master Test Kit is a common one and is highly recommended. It's also very easy to use. Even I can use it and I almost failed chemistry class in highschool.
3) Substrate. I would go with gravel considering it's a bit easier to clean than sand. Your fishstore will most likely have a large variety. Try to go with something natural looking, fish will feel more comfortable.

I've left off plants for now as that can be a whole different ballgame with lighting, but I hope this was helpful. I also have a lot of OCD tendencies and I like to be in control and on top of my projects. If you need anything else let us know, as you can tell we absolutely love to help


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

Could she just get a 10gal filter and run both the old and new one?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Well yes, but d then imagine you'd have to consider flow rates from the 2 filters in a small tank.

As for the substrate I agree with jentralala and you should get gravel. I'd go for a very small, smooth and fine gravel as this should reasonably cover you through all eventualities. 
Also iv had a large pebble gravel and tbh it looked rubbish and dirty. Never again! 
A lighter colour will also be a better option aesthetically as darker colours will show us the dirt and poop much more.


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

And make sure that it's not all one color. Color varance will hide poop and such. My little shrimp were wonderful at snatching up food the others missed so my subtrate stayed clean. Got to admit, sand is a pain (I have PFS) but I have to admit that my plants are growing better. And I don't use ferts btw. Plants will grow, just not as fast. Make sure you pick out plants that are no other color than green because red and others usually need ferts and mid-high light.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Wow! You guys are just awesome!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

We know. Haha.

Iv got literally NOTHING to do at work today, so any Q's id Love to try and help, as it'd actually be helping me too! Haha.


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

LoL... Wish I could say the same but posting here is keeping me from complete and utter boredom!

Questions... Let's see.

Gravel vaccum... Do I need this only with gravel or sand as well. Any pros and cons? What's easier?

Another question.. How would I do water changes? Assuming we're using water from the tap. Do we treat it in a separate bucket then remove some old water, and add the new? A little confused about this process and what I need to get it done. 


I'm acctually getting excited about this. Who would have thought! By the way, as hubby woke up this morning I blured out; 
"Hey you know that tank has the wrong pump, you need a 20 gallon pump. You also need a heater, thermostat, water conditioner and some other stuff. Oh, and you can't have angel fish."
His response: "Why?"
Me: "Because your tank is too small. They need atleast a 50g. They grow"
Him: But (insert friend's name here) said they'd be fine.
Me: He was wrong. They grow. If they grow too big then what. If you don't believe me google it yourself. I'll find some fish we can have and you can pick from those.
Him: Okay. 

I think that went pretty well!!! LMAO

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

I just wrote an essay answer, hit a link by mistake and lost it all. SIGH!!!!! 
I'll rewrite... stupid phone.


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Oh man!!!! I'm sorry!!! Looking forward to your essay.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Haha that convo went awesome. He got well and truly told. You go girl! Haha

Anyway.....
Yes you need a Hoover no matter what as which ever substrate your fish are still going to poop, and it all.collects somewhere.....

Hoovering sand I have no idea about as I've not ha d it yet but I'm actually interested to find out as I'll be adding it to my 60ltr after the new year.

Now water changes are simple. You should effectively take care of the emptying part whilst you do the hoovering tbh in a 20 gallon. This will likely be into a bucket as I think it's easiest.

Now when it comes to filling it you have 2 main options. You can fill a bucket straight from the taps, add the conditioner and then add to tank.

Or you can pre condition the tank and fill straight from the taps to tank with extended hoses.

Some considerations here are water temp. I'm lucky that if I run both my taps on full the water comes out at 26.4 degrees. My tank sits at approx 26 so by time it's in its bang on. Worth checking yours to see how this goes. You obviously don't want to fill straight to the tank with 12' water into a 26' tank. Would cause your fish to go into shock. Other options if need it is you can stick a heater in the bucket for 10 mins which should get it right.

To get this done I'd say you realistically need 2 20 ltr buckets, a vacuum and a water conditioner. Oh, and an old towel, I always need one. Haha.

I used to use a jug to put the water back in as tipping in a bucket would obviously cause major disturbance, others tip it onto a plate slowly to minimise the disturbance. Nowadays I spent approx $30 on a eheim water pump which I throw into the bucket and it l pumps the water back up jmto the tank for me. Easies. Lol.


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Makes sense. Okay. That sounds doable. So in a 20 gallon tank, how much should I be changing the water? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Well early on if you put fish in with plants it could be anything up to daily. Up yo 50%. 

What your aiming for essentially is 

Ammonia- 0
Nitrites- 0
Nitrates 0 - 20max. People say 40. Lower is better.

If your ammonia/nitrites hit too high above 0 early on, say 2.0 for Am or 0.2 for trites you'll belooking to do a water change to lower them. The more live plants you have the lower these should be as plants absorb these. This is with fish in as these levels are harmful to them, and so whilst your tank is still cycling the workload will be more. One it's done your ammonia and nitrites should remain at 0 - plants and bacteria in your filter and substrate will do this - then your doing approx weekly 20-30% water changes to keep your nitrates down.


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Any starter fish recommendations? Since you're bored?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Angel fish?


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Really????? Haha seriously.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

Fishybusiness said:


> Makes sense. Okay. That sounds doable. So in a 20 gallon tank, how much should I be changing the water?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
I never change water in my tanks. :lol:


my .02


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## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

Well there are varying amounts of water changes depending on the member in here and what they believe... AND how OCD or lazy you are. Most will suggest 30%-50% weekly as your fish are living in their own pee. Ooops sorry is that a surprise? Well it's true. 
Fresh clean water is the best medicine and a good routine of weekly water changes will keep control of excessive amounts of Ammonia, NitrIte and NitrAte. More to follow on these once you setting up. Have you read the articles on Cycling a new tank? 
So... anyway... I am one of the lazy ones... ehhhemmmm. So I do about 25%-30% every 2 weeks. Yes I know it should be more but I also have a turtle that needs them almost 2 x a week so I have that darn hose laying about all the time. 
Water changes will require a thermometer for sure. Get the floaty kind, they bob about the tank, or you can put it into one of the filter chambers. You will need a separate bucket just for your fish, never to be used for anything else... ever, ever, never, never. I have a juice jug, marg container, cups and tubs, a couple of scrubby pads, pair of scissors, a turkey baster, set of measuring spoons, and small pocket calender.... kept all in a big tote (or cupboard in the stand under the tank) If you ever get another tank (he,he,he... !) you have a full set of these for each tank. No cross contaminating!! (get as much as you can out of your kitchen cupboards or the Dollar store!!)
(Wait till she walks past the Bettas at the local fish store (LFS) and he wiggles his little fins Hello at her!) :rofl:
When you are at the LFS this week, look to see if they have made things simple for you by putting red, green, yellow stickers on the tanks. Green is Community fish, Yellow is caution, and Red is doesn't play well with others!! (one species only tank).
Sorry back to water changes.... Starting out, you would open the lid, use one of your marg tubs, scoop water into the bucket and take it to a sink and pour it out. When you have removed 1/3 you check the water temp in the tank, go run the water in the sink that you can get your bucket under the faucet, and using as close as possible, within 2 degrees max, treat the water with de-chlor and take the full bucket back to the tank and pour directly in, or scoop the new water back in with the tub. When you are fully tired of that method.... next Christmas you will be asking for a "python" style hose that you connect directly to the faucet which uses siphoning to pull out the old water, close the shut off valve, put the de-chlor directly into the tank, set the temp at the sink, reverse flow..... open the valve and fill the tank. DO NOT go too far from the tank at this point... do not answer the door, go do laundry, go for a nap... etc. lol or you will have a rather wet floor! Ya I've done it!! Shut off the valve when full, run back to the sink and shut off the water. Does that give you a visual of the 2 processes? 
(by the way, you are almost at 15 posts which will get you any time into the Chat room to speak live with other members when they are in there! You can see if someone is in there down at the bottom of the main menu, it lists the names of those chatting at that moment). Come visit us some time.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

god no. never the angels. haha. TBH we really cant help you with these fish as what you get first could determine what you can put in the tank after, so really you need that list of what you want etc and from there people can help you make the right decisions.

bealsbub does his a little differently in that he's right, you can never change the water, but he effectively builds self sustaining eco systems which require a little more thought etc. I wouldnt have a clue on these though tbh.

and jakies given you a nice cheap way of doing it - though jackie - a marge tub to the sink and back constantly? No wonder its a WC every 2 weeks, that sounds like it would break me!!! 

Personally i still think the hoovering method is best, as effectively its a water pump, taking out your water, you just happen to be cleaning the gravel at the same time. But atbthe end of the day, you'll find a million different methods on how to do it, its what you find that suits YOU which will work best for you!

off to the LFS mow for a good peruse and to see if i can spend some of my christmas vouchers


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## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

No... hahahaha... water tub to Bucket! Bucket to sink. I have a 75 gallon. I have a Python hose!! OMG!!


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Phewww!!!!! That's a lot of info but it's a much more clear picture now of what I need to do... Notice the more this post\progress is moving along the less and less I'm using the word WE (as in me and hubby)... SMH. I'm acctually looking forward to checking out the fish tonight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Hahah, I'm sure the fish will grow on you. :-D
Fishkeeping gets very exciting, especially if you go have a look at what other people are doing with their tanks!


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Jakiebabie, I forgot to mention. I've had Betta's before... 3 of them acctually (separate times). I was thinking of filling the tank with plants and getting 1 betta but then it's a little too lonely in there... And probably boring to watch.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

The vac is a must. And if you go with sand, it wont suck up very much at all into the hose. Kind of just fluffs it IMO.

In the beginning, you can't overdo pwc. No good bacteria yet so the nasty stuff can build up fast. That's also a reason for having the tank understocked in the beginning and building it up over time. 

Once it cycled and is on it's way, the number of pwc depernds on the number of fish and their bioload. Also, don't do a gravel vac for the first few weeks as you want the bacteria to grow in the substrate. Get water off the top.

I pre-treat about 1.5gal of water in a contanier and have it a degree or 2 warmer than my tank. I turn off my filter and scoop out water with a mixing bowl and dump it in a bucket. By the time I'm ready to pour my fresh water in, it has cooled to tank temp. I don't pour it directly in the tank, but rather I pour it in the back of the filter canester. No current that way. I do it 3x a week.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

When looking at starter fish, the only thing I would recommend at the beginning stages would be smaller fish, with consequently lighter bioloads. But for now I'd just go have fun at the fish store with looking at everyone


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

So I went...and took down alot of names of "possibilities". They had some "dwarf angels"...that's at least what was on the label and I am sure if hubby sees those he's ask why we can't have those.

I like the fancy guppies...awesome colors, patterns and I love the way they swim...

I also looked at some tetra's (neon/glo are okay) , zebra danio's are the only one's I found nice.........just seem plain to me. I like different shapes.

The Gouramis looked nice...pretty colorful. I also like some pleco's but apparently some are not a good fit for our tank as they will get big. Platies also seemed plain to me.

They had a lot of types of sharks...but we can't have those...they need a 50 gallon tank.

It's a bit disappointing to see that the fish I do find "cool" are not a good fit for our tank.
For example, I love discus fish. I think they look so awesome but again, too big for our tank.









Anyway, a coworker is going to give us his 30 gallon filter (our tank is 20) and a heater that he has (he has a ton of extra's from his old tanks)...That won't be until Wednesday when I go back to work though. So until then we will clean the tank out tomorrow morning, get some gravel, add water, some plants. I am strongly considering adding a betta at first since I know from experience how hardy they are and I am sure it will do fine with a 10 gallon filter and it may help the tank cycle. We'll also get testing strips and next weekend depending where we are at we may be able to start adding fish.

My hubby seems to have the same tastes in fish as me and also found most of the ones I took pics of plain. 
I just wish we could find a COOL different looking colorful fish...even two would be fine but the little ones are not so fun to me. I don't know....


Regarding plants, they have a decent variety...although they didn't have anacharis. I did like the green cabomba, banana plant,java fern, wisteria...I think 4-5 plants will work well in our size tank without over crowding it.

Now, the gravel. I took a look at the small pebble like gravel and I had no idea that some come "wet" with "bacteria" already??? Most were wet. Now I have no idea which to get. I do know the color and that's it. Should I get the wet one and just add it or the dry and wash it then add it. A little confused here. Hope I get an answer by tomorrow because I hate to ask FS people questions since some have no clue. 

Anyway...sorry for the long post. Any advice is welcome...


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## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

Any idea what your PH is??


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Jakiebabie said:


> Any idea what your PH is??



Nope! 

I did find the report for our city..not sure if this is even relevant. 
http://fl-tamarac2.civicplus.com/DocumentCenter/Home/View/284


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

Well, before you add fish I would definitely check out your ph. Some fish prefer higher ph, some fish prefer lower. 
Either gravel should work fine, I would definitely go with something 'smooth' though. If its dry just give it a quick rinse, if it's wet (mine always was), I just poked a hole in the bottom with a fork and let it drain outside, then poured it in the tank.

Also, just a foreword. The tank will be cloudy for awhile after the gravel is added, a few hours at the most. This is totally okay. And when your bacteria is being 'cultivated', your tank will get cloudy then too. This is totally okay 

Also, most people prefer planting before the water is added. So perhaps buy the gravel and plants at the same time, plant the tank, and then add your water. I would do this after you get the new filter so you can begin getting good bacteria started. 

Honestly I wouldn't bother with test strips :/ They can be pretty unreliable. I got my API Master Test kit for $20 online at Drs. Foster&Smith, and it's more than worth the money. It will last a very long time, and is quite accurate. Your LFS may also sell them.

If you added the Betta, would he stay in the tank as a permanent resident? It can be a bit difficult to plan a tank around them, especially if they're the first introduced. They get territorial.


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

Do you have dechlorinator?


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

The betta was just a thought. May choose something else (or nothing but plants)... Would the test kit tell me Ph?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

I have nothing right now except a tank (light and pump\filter)...I Was planning to go buy stuff tomorrow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

If you like Bettas, you can always add a young male with a good size school of Cory Cats, some shrimp, and snails. You can also do a Betta sorority (sp?) which is a big group of female bettas. Lots of people enjoy those. Just make sure to get them young so they can grow up together. ;-)

There are LOTS of small colorful fish to chose from. And remember, those in the pet store are babies and will get bigger!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

I like Bettas and have had them before. They are some seriously strong fish that required very little care and very great to watch. I don't like females though so a sorority would be out...which means only 1 beta. Cory cats and cute and I like ghost shrimp. We'll see what hubby says. That and some tertas or guppies might be nice (if the Betta agrees). I'll let you guys know what we did tomorrow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

Well, if you go with a Betta, I would stay away from any Tetra. They are know fin nippers! And tetra can be a tad agressive, so be careful
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

Yep, the test kit will show PH, Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate. 

Shame you don't like the females, they come in so many different colors! You could look into a really fancy giant betta, although those can get a lot more costly than the average veiltail. Then perhaps some kind of bottom feeder, although you'd have to look into a very smooth fine gravel if not sand for Corys to be most comfortable.

As for fish...what about Honey Gourami, or an assortment of guppies? Lyretail guppies are absolutely gorgeous and could probably be special ordered for you. However these may not work, depending on the parameters of your water, but it's food for thought


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Well let me that part back... I had no idea female betta came in different colors (just googled them). The only ones I've ever seen were white.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

You off to the fishy shop today to make your list?


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Nilet699 said:


> You off to the fishy shop today to make your list?



I went last night by myself...today I take the kid (hubby)... Once we clean the tank we're off... Have no idea about the fish yet...well an idea but no definite. Maybe a betta... 

I do know we're getting gravel, plants, conditioner and probably a test kit. 

How much gravel would I need for a 20 gallon high tank? Looking to fill 2 inches or so with gravel.


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## Canadian Fish (Feb 12, 2012)

I used a 25 lbs bag of substrate in mine. Just the regular tacky colored and polished gravel stuff. I think some fancy eco or sand substrates may require a different amount. 

Good luck at the LFS! Setting up and stocking a new tank is so much fun, I'm jealous.

Looking forward to updates and pics later on!


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Canadian Fish said:


> Setting up and stocking a new tank is so much fun, *I'm jealous.*


Tanko numero eighto


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## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

Tanks multiply just like fish do!!


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## Canadian Fish (Feb 12, 2012)

Nilet699 said:


> Tanko numero eighto


LOL. In one month it will be two years since I quit smoking. In July it will be 14 years since I quit worse. I can totally go a year without a new tank, no matter how badly I want one. 

Now, if Jodie caves, that's another story. She quit smoking when I did, and went back after 6 or 8 months (not sure exactly how many, she hid it from me for awhile). 

Idiot. She had it beat. I'm too stubborn to back down and go back to a bad habit once I've gotten over the worst of it. Not that fish keeping is a bad habit, lol, but with our scant resources, when we're spending all our money on fish, we have no money left over for anything else. So tank moratorium it is.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Ahh don't pain me. I'm 25, last year developed asthma and now need to use an inhaler daily, and if I fall asleep on my back when I awaken my breathing sounds like I'm dying..... and breathing is actually a struggle. I want to quit so badly!!!!!!!!!!! I seriously don't have the will power though. And work kills it what else to do on breaks. But I'm really thinking soon it has to go, it's costs me nothing as I roll my own, polish golden Virginia tobacco which is dirt cheap but I just don't want to be on a dimmed air line in 10/20 years, which it feels like is going to happen.


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## Canadian Fish (Feb 12, 2012)

I put on 30 or 40 lbs when I quit, so now the heart attack is going to kill me before the lung cancer was going to (or the diabetes). One big incentive was I didn't want to smoke around Charlie, but Jodie still smokes around him. So basically all I got for my trouble was fat and easily winded. And I had to buy new jeans and TShirts. Thank God for the Salvation Army and Value Village.

Tip if you quit: Don't drink a pop every time you would have had a smoke. I did that for the first few months, and I ballooned up like Marlon Brando.


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Oh I wish I could quit... Hmmm... Soon. 

Back to fish (I'm in denial)...

Just cleaned and dried the tank... All set up. Will definetly post pics later. I'm addicted to my Nikon. Thanks everyone. Stay posted!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Yeah that's another thing I don't want either. Pros sand cons ay. Can't bloody win either way! But still going to have to quit! Here's to hoping.....


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Oh we'll be waiting! Get them pics up soon as your done! Haha


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## Canadian Fish (Feb 12, 2012)

Fishybusiness said:


> Oh I wish I could quit... Hmmm... Soon.
> 
> Back to fish (I'm in denial)...
> 
> ...


Nice. I just got a new cheapo camera and I'm hooked on that. Our old camera took pictures in any color you wanted, as long as it was orange, so it's a treat to get pictures of our tanks now that are closer to reality. I'm going through batteries like Zsa Zsa went through husbands. Where did THAT reference come from, the 90s? 

What type of gravel are you getting? Or color? I use the regular aquarium stuff in all my tanks. Nothing fancy. The last two I used black and now I wished I had used black for all of them. When we started we were into the tacky, showy, hideous colors, but now with the plants I like the black.

This is what I use:

http://www.bigalspets.ca/fish/substrates/special-spectrastone-gravel-black-25-lb.html

It's smaller than it looks in the picture, which is why the one reviewer gave it a crappy review, he thought it would be pebble size. There's no sharp edges and my zebra loaches and cories do not have any problem with their bristles, or whatever they are called. When I first got them I kept an eye out to make sure they weren't getting aggravated by the gravel.


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

Those "white" females probably aren't actually white. Bettas get pale and loose a lot of their color when they get stressed. I have a pic of Gus from WalMart in my album and pics of him later on. You can see how DRASTICALLY his color changed in just a few weeks. Amazing little guys they are :-D
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Canadian Fish (Feb 12, 2012)

Bluewind said:


> Those "white" females probably aren't actually white. Bettas get pale and loose a lot of their color when they get stressed. I have a pic of Gus from WalMart in my album and pics of him later on. You can see how DRASTICALLY his color changed in just a few weeks. Amazing little guys they are :-D
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When I bought my Blue, Red, and Bosemani Rainbows, they were all white. If it hadn't been for the labels at the LFS, I wouldn't have been able to tell which was which. They colored up a little the very first day of being out of there, and in a few days were quite colorful.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Hows it going fishy? Any dramas or smooth sailing?


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Canadian Fish- get rechargable batteries for that camera! Saves a ton of money. I use to have a camera (Kodak) that used triple A and I went through them like...well like u said. LOL but seriously go to Walmart (or whatever you Canadians have JK) and get some. The charger and 4 batteries (so you can rotate) shouldn't cost you more than $10. The Nikon I'm using is the AW100 (waterproof to 30ft)- I love it! It has it's own rechargable battery-thank God! 

Okay- back to fishies!!! So we're back and it's set up... I took some pics and will upload and post soon. It's SO pretty (to us)... Very cool. You guys will see soon. 

About the betta's- I had no idea the females lose color under stress. I know males who do (have seen some at big name pet stores unfortunetly) but I remember asking about females and the employee (who probably didn't know Jack) said they are always white. Hmmm...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Canadian Fish (Feb 12, 2012)

Nice, looking forward to seeing it!

The reason I never went to rechargables is because I read that the kind this camera uses lose 20% of their charge the first day _even if they aren't used_ and 5% per day after that. Which would be fine if it was for an event like Christmas, so I could charge the day before, but it means if my camera sat there for a couple of weeks and I grabbed it because my fish or the boy were doing something cute, they might be drained from just sitting there. 

I suppose I should use a combination of both, rechargables for when I know I'm going to need it, and regular ones for those spontaneous moments.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

WOW that was a quick response! Me thinks i asked just as you were about to post!!



Fishybusiness said:


> It's SO pretty (to us)... Very cool. You guys will see soon.


HAHA, your so doomed! february- thats when you'll want another ;-)

June- when you divorce your husband as the space his stuff uses could be better employed with more fish tanks. HAHA.
............................

But seriously, so glad your loving it- especially as in your early posts there was lots of this;



Fishybusiness said:


> Talking him out of it is not an option.





Fishybusiness said:


> Oh man... I just about want to hit my hubby over the head with a frying pan...


haha bet your secretly glad now he's a big kid :-D


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

I can't wait to see! I must have rearanged mine a coupple dozen times at least! It's fun to play with them. And glass jars were GREAT at filling in enpty spots. ;-)

Any live plants yet? What kind?

:lol: Yes. I think we all talked like THAT in the beginning. Then, we do the research, fall in love, and get hooked for life! :lol:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Hi guys...on my laptop now so I can post pics..etc. 

So...we got this brown/tan gravel. We got one 20lb bag (with live bacteria) and another 5lb same color but dry and a bit smaller pebbles. We also got Seachem conditioner, plants, API testing strips (question about this below) and fish food. Why fish food you ask? Because we got a Betta... I've kept them before so I know some stuff about them, one being that they are VERY hard to kill. So we will build our tank around him. Worst case scenario we'll take him back to the store and get other fish but hubby is attached already...he talked to him on the way home and is thinking of names now.. HAHA :shock::roll::-D He's been staring at the tank for the last hour...and so have I. I am glad we got it now..but what would he do without me! The logical one... ;-)

Anyways, the plants we got:
1 anacharis (they just got them in today- didn't have them yesterday when I went)
1 chilensis
1 banana plant
1 wisteria
2 cabomba

Some came with "babies" and we were able to separate those..They guy at the fish store was nice and threw some stuff in there for free even though the plants were pretty cheap. The most expensive was the banana plant at 3.99.

I have some questions (of course) but I'll post them after the pics. 























































































































Mr. Fish (no name yet) is LOVING the tank. I've never seen a betta play around so much. He zooms around going around the plants. Just generally looks really happy. I'm sure anything was better than that tiny container they had him in, but I'm sure he likes the tank. Hard to photograph as he moves pretty fast. His body is blue and fins are red.


First- the API test strips we got...well I think they aren't exactly accurate (as some of you have said). I'm going to post the results as of 5 minutes ago and you guys can maybe help me decipher them? Please. I don't think the ones we got test for ammonia either unless there's something I don't know.

GH-General hardness reads 0-30- more so on the 0 side (goes by color)

KH- Carbonate harness reads 0-40 - color is more in the middle of the two

PH- reads between 7.5 to 8 on the scale.

Nitrite - reads at 0

Nitrate- reads between 0-20 (very close to white which is 0)

Like I said, the test strips go by a color scale (good thing I'm not color blind) so they aren't very accurate. Let me know what you guys think.



We still need to get a thermostat, the 30 gallon pump and heater (from our friend), some plant fertilizer (tabs I guess? input welcome)...some sort of rock or drift wood...or even a decoration that provides some hiding places (maybe a broken vase)...The "no fishing" sign can always be moved to the side.

We rinsed the dry gravel (5lb bag) and the water is not bad but I'm hoping it will get more clear. Anything I need to do? 

ALL advice is welcome. I think that's all I had for now..I think.


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

Yeah new baby! Make sure to get him something hard he can hide in. Bettas LOVE their hidy holes and it makes them feel safe. They get very attached to them too. :-D

Yeah, test strips are a pain. You can cut them in half to give you double the strips so they can last a bit. Go on Amazon and look up API Master Test Kit. They sel them for $20 and it has EVERY test you could possibly need. Much cheaper than strips too. Using a turkey baster to get the water out will help with getting the right amount in the tubes. It's fun and easy and makes me feel like a scientist. ;-)

What kind of food do you have your little man? Try to avoid flakes as they are MESSY! Find a pellet with meat as the first 3 ingrediants. I use Omega One Betta Buffet. Gus loves um! Just feed him how many he can eat in a few minutes and scoop out the rest. I turn off my filter so they don't get pushed around. Bettas don't eat a lot, so splurge on a good food as it will last a year!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Bluewind said:


> Yeah new baby! Make sure to get him something hard he can hide in. Bettas LOVE their hidy holes and it makes them feel safe. They get very attached to them too. :-D
> 
> Yeah, test strips are a pain. You can cut them in half to give you double the strips so they can last a bit. Go on Amazon and look up API Master Test Kit. They sel them for $20 and it has EVERY test you could possibly need. Much cheaper than strips too. Using a turkey baster to get the water out will help with getting the right amount in the tubes ;-)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Thanks!!! Yea..he's a happy camper. I noticed he's been using the wisteria plant in the corner to "chill out" since it's kind of full and gives him space to be hidden. I am planning on getting something else though.

What do you think of the test results? It's not testing for ammonia right? :shock:
Good idea on cutting them but hopefully I'll just get the test kit instead.


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## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

Yeah for Bettas!! See what happens when you give a Betta a nice big home!? They zoom! I once had one in a 45 gallon. He was King of his castle!! Your story is a prime example of why we need to keep Betta's in bigger tanks. Cause they have big personalities!! And you are also seeing a difference because you have live plants over plastic. That makes a diff too. 
Good job!! (is hubby talking baby talk to him?)lol 
Be careful not to use a clay pot with a hole in the base.. they can get stuck trying to swim thru the hole. 
Yes the Ammonia test strips come separate I believe. You will get Ammonia first... but plants take up Ammonia so getting them is a big step to protecting him from Ammonia burn. You won't see NI or NA for a few weeks I imagine.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

IMO the API master tester kit is now singularly the most important thing on your shopping list. whilst you are right, as some one like byron can inform you better of, you may not kill your fish bad water conditions, especially during the cycling period can cause your fish long term unseen damage. 

So you need to keep on top of the testing especially early on to keep them levels safe.
As i think i've mentioned before i was doing 50-60% water changes a day early on to keep mine down, sometimes twice. 

What did you wash the 5pound bag in? dechlorinated waster? Just you dont want to have washed it in normal tap water and then effectively put chlorine in your tak and possibly killed some/all of your bacteria in the ''live'' gravel. I'm not sure if that would kill it, but i assume it would.

(sorry i just kinda posted the worst case etc on the aboves, but better than going blind IMO)

Now.....

YAY! loving the way it looks, and LOVING the fact that you have a small piece of cabomba floating about- that is the bane of my life! haha.


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

My goodness you're fast! I hadn't even edited my last post before you replied to it! :lol:
(btw, go back and read the rest)

So cute how he reclines on his plant! It's why Betta hamocks are so popular ;-)

The water is a little soft, but it will work. pH will work too. Between 6 and 8 is fine, but it is more important to have STABLE pH than perfect pH. Big swings (over 0.2 a day) will hurt and stress your fish. It can even kill them! :shock:

Now that you know your chemistry, you can narrow down what fish/inverts will work the best in your tank. Best of luck hun :-D
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

*starts handing out pins for AAA: Anphibious Adicts Anonomus* :lol:

And yes I know I can't spell! Sue me 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Thanks so much for your help everyone! I will be researching his possible tank mates in the coming days (probably tonight lol)... 

I'll get that test kit asap. I really don't like the strips. Too much of a range and guessing the #. As I'm sure you guys can tell I'm a bit ...OCD... So I need exact #'s! 

We did rinse the 5lb dry gravel several times in dechlorinated water. We added the live one first, then the 5lb cleaned one, planted and then poured dechlorianted water over a plate until we filled the tank. The process was a bit..crazy because we only had a 5gallon clean water bottle so he'd fill it and I'd add the conditioner to each one. Etc... It worked out though. I'm sure I will be there next week spending money on more stuff... Blue wind, I'll be needed one of those AAA pins I think.
Hubby loves his fish... The water got clear too. Seems to be pretty good acctually. I expected it to be a lot cloudier. 

Mr. Fish is swimming around zooming and fluttering his little fins. It's so nice to see him so happy. I have to admit I was one of those betta people that kept them in a 5 gallon bowl with a plastic plant. Now I feel bad. 

I love the look of the live plants. Would never buy fake now. I'm hooked and they're cheap! Cheaper than fake ones. 
Any recommendations on fertilizer? 

I'd like to get a timer for the light too. 

The background we're using was the old one that came with the tank. In the excitment we forgot to buy one while at the store. It works though. I acctually used vaseline to stick it on there. Any other ways of doing this if it doesn't come with adhesive already? 

Jackiebabie... What's the ideal #'s I should be aiming for? You mentioned I won't see Nitriate or Nitrate for some time? Do I want to see it? Still trying to understand this part. Have some more reading to do I guess. 

Sigh... Thanks for all your patience with my gazillion and one questions!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Bluewind- we got flakes... The large ones. Ooops! TetraColor plus tropical flakes. Fed him half of one (they're huge) a little after he got situated and the poor thing ate all of it. Honestly, most of the Bettas they had look sick. Very sad. They keep the other fish under great conditions (for a petstore) but the bettas were not looking good. He was the most active and healthy looking one. 
Once we get other fish would I still feed him his special pellet food or would there be a general food? I guess I need to wait until we find out what fish we're getting to work that part out?
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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Oh last thing (geez!)... Even though we're getting a new pump, I'm wondering if this is normal. The part where the filtered water flows back into the tank is kind of like a little waterfall causing current (and some bubbles). Is that normal or should that part be submerged? Maybe we have our water too low.
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## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

Awww don't feel bad! I once had a turtle in one of those tiny little pans with the itty bitty plastic palm tree. :shock:
My current turtle has a 45 Gallon and is getting a 75gal. :-D

You are looking for 5-20ppm for NitrAte when you get there. Anything higher needs a water change right away.
Yes you will want to set your lights on timers.. you may have to review your light bulbs too. 
Do a water changes on day one, then liquid ferts on day 2 and possibly on day 5. Start with once a week but you may have to go to 2 x a week if you are not seeing growth, new leaves or they seem to be melting away. Dechlor negates ferts so don't do them on the same day. I use Seachem Flourish. You planted and de-chlor'd today... so fert tomorrow.


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Got it. Great! Will send him to the store... Hehe
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

Yes take your water up to the top. A HOB, hang on back, is sometimes too much for a Betta for that very reason. Another reason why this 10 gallon filter might be fine for him on the 20 gal. He won't want much motion but you also need the water return to break the surface or it will/can go stagnant. The water surface must be broken in some way to prevent that. There are ways to slow the flow down even more... let us know if this 10 gal filter is still too much for him.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

No doubt you'll end up with about 12 different foods, i do alreasdy and they have a differign diet through the week- including on day they dont get fed at all.

Nice job on the cleaning and filling, it did look pretty clear straight up 

Oh, the flakes.... i have some rosey tetras in mine and they love the flakes...but they are too big....i simply crunch them up in my fingers onto the lid and then drop them in...

I spent the extra on a dig timer, well 3 for my main tank, and have a regular crappy one for my smaller tank, but i've wondered what the grinding was on the regular one today, basically its broke already but i already had it, so i will get another difital on my next day off too. I'd rather never have to worry it might stay on all night!

haha sounds like work- ask the lfs if they have any old buckets- mine are all old saltwater tanks salt tubs- nig 25 ltr ones that they had used for water changes too- i just cleaned them in old tank water again and again and again until i was happy to use them to fill my tank too. Plus if you have 2 one can dechlor'ing whilst your filling/ draining with the other. time is money baby! haha. one lfs charged me $2 for one, the other gave me 2 for free as i buy plenty there anyway.

i'd say good choice on the fish...i always look for the active and healthy looking fish.....and when they caught me one i wasnt happy with from the group i told him to put it back. SAYING that though, we also like to rescue things, so if you look in the 'loach fin' thread you'll see we added one more to our last purchase and got the one who had been bullied! couldnt be leaving him in there! he'd already lost half his fin, and now he's our favourite. ANYWAY.....

your background- some people paint their backgrounds permanent with water soluble paint- so if they ever want to change it it will come off with a little elbow grease. Obviously a few coats will stop any evaporation etc taking any off.
MINE- is simply selotaped on in 6 points, but this is probably because i'll no doubt change it for soemthing that i actually want at some point or just paint/stick on plain black to add a contrast and make the fish and whats actually in the tank stand out more.

Yeah them test strips are poo- as you can see the numbers could be ANYTHING. haha.

glad your happy with the plants, fish and tank as a whole though and glad we'll no doubt be seeing you around here plenty we hopes


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Lol theres been a bunch of posts why i was writing that.

i was just going to add- adhesive for backgrounds is available- BUT most if you ever want to change it are a nightmare to get off and need a lot of scrubbing/scraping...

*YOUR FLOW- if you think its too strong- turn it around and aim it at the wall...... this will take a lot of the force out of it before it hits the water.*


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

Bettas eat off the top of the water, so having a food just for him is fine. Tetras eat out of the water collumn (look at their mouth position to see where they eat), so you wil crumble up flakes and put your fingers just below the water so that they kind of float down. They will munch them that way.

If you go with Rosy Tetras, make sure you have a big enough group so as to not have to deal with agression and fin nipping. What's the minimum group size guys? Like 6 or 7?

And if you have a current, your water is to low. Fill it up to the lip for sure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Lol blue, think it was just me mentioning roseys as an example of using flakes too big but crunching them up, dont think she mentioned them, did she?

6 is the minimum though, and i have 6, and ive never seen any aggression from them.


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

Nilet699 said:


> Lol blue, think it was just me mentioning roseys as an example of using flakes too big but crunching them up, dont think she mentioned them, did she?
> 
> 6 is the minimum though, and i have 6, and ive never seen any aggression from them.


Oh  ! Give me a break here Nile :lol: I'm at home with a sinus infection, ear infection (BOTH EARS!), the flu, and a freakin migraine! Don't even ask me how I got all THAT at the same time :roll:

It's why I've been so active on here for the past few days. Me iz sick and bored! :'-(
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Awww bluewind!!!! That sounds terrible. You probably feel like you're in a bubble. Hope you feel better soon. 

Going to fill the tank more. I fiqured it was too low and that's why. It's not terrible where if he stays in one place it floats him away or anything but still. 

I can't wait to get more fish... Any idea when we can do that or it just depends on the cycle?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

You want to wait until you age your tank a bit to add more. The plants will suck up a lot of the Amoina, so it shouldn't take long. Just stay on top of your testing. ;-)

And yes, I feel like poo! I miss breathing out of my nose and I have that terrible sensation like someone put redhots up my nose and in my sinuses! :evil:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

Jakie sends Bluewind big hugs and chicken soup!!


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Try mucinex dm and theraflu. Both are awesome.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## djembekah (Feb 13, 2012)

very pretty betta  those guys are addicting...i have 9. and my 5 females (and the previous two i had) are all different colors, so idk what that guy was on when he told you they were all white, lol.

if the flow is too strong, you can also baffle the filter. there are several tutorials around the site, and they're really not that hard to make up on your own 

looks great! i'd recommend ferts for your plants too. flourish comprehensive is an awesome one


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

Awwww! Thanks guys! Too sweet :-D

I don't have any theraflu. I might give that a try. I can't drive atm because of the migraine so I have those darn sparkles in my vision, but I can ask my dad. Thanks for the idea!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

It tastes like shyt but it works.
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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Gosh this has turned into a long thread! 

So I'm researching tank mates just to narrow it down. Promised hubby I'm make a list (with pictures) of what he can have and he can pick from those. Funny right? SMH

Anyway... I found some info:

GOOD TANK MATES: 
Ghost shrimp
Snails
African dwarf frogs 
Cories
Loaches
White Cloud Mountain Minnows

POSSIBLY GOOD TANK MATES:
Neon/cardinal tetras 
Plecos (not common pleco) 
Feeder/Wild guppies 
Rasboras


Am I missing any or do you guys agree with the above *copied from another site*. I haven't researched them to see if we even like them but I just wanted to narrow it down. If I missed any, please let me know!

Could we get one of these? http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=1075+1642&pcatid=1642


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

i dont know much about shrimp as i dont want any yet tbh, i have 6 loaches, botia kubotai (polkadot loach) that i absolutely LOVE in my tank at the moment and id recommend them anyday!!! One thing you cant have with them though is snails....as they are a favourite food! I also think these will be much too big for a 20 gallon unfortunately.....but definitely something to think about for when you get your 55 gallon ;-)

coroes though i think you could put a decent group in your tank, BUT these require sand substrate really, so that would be a switch, but most people i think would tell you its worth the hassle as they are a great fish.

rasboras on the whole are quite small so you need to consider this when matching them with future fish, though again shouldnt be too much of an issue in a smaller tank- though i dont know how they fit with your betta.

there are quite a few plecos that are limited to around 5 inches that might be a possibility for you- bristlenose pleco, queen arabesque (which is what im getting later!), clown pleco, golden nugget (maybe 7 inches for that one off top of head) amongst quite a few others.

neons i just plain dont like because everyone has them. lol. But theres SO many tetras to look between. guppies, again, i just dont like them really. haha.

NOOOO idea about frogs either! lol


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

LOL @ the 55 gallon. If I go bigger I'm going BIG...think 100 gallon... Just kidding! Let me make sure we can manage this first. 

No frogs...I'm scared of them. HEHE but I LOVE the plecos you posted. SO pretty! I agree that tetra are just okay.. just wanted something colorful...and blue. I'd love if I can find something yellow too..


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

well cories are a definite for sand though, and you might actually like it if you got it, i CANT WAIT to get some sand for my 15 gallon and throw some barbs in! Play sand is like $2 as well!

You can actually get a blue tetra you know! As for the yellow, theres a tetras- lemon tetra? that has a silver body but a lovely yellow fin. something like my rosey tetras - only yellow. lol


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

OMG- Love this one- Green Fire Tetra- I would probably have to order them though...










EDIT: I think this particular pic was edited- other pics don't look nearly as colored. http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=830+890+1113&pcatid=1113

http://www.petco.com/product/114337/Green-Fire-Tetra.aspx


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

Is the gravel smooth? If so, I would go with some loaches and some kind of shouling fish to make them active (without it, they hid all day). There are many types of Kulii Loaches that are quite small so they will fit in just fine. They are funny little guys with little catfish whiskers! :lol:

If no to Loaches, shrimp are a lot of fun! Jumping over each other. Attacking their food. Cleaning the tank. Neat little guys. They play all over the tank. I've had Ghost Shrimp and they have a high mortality rate because they are bred to be feeders, so you might like Cherry Shrimp. You can get them for cheap at epicfish.net if you can get someone to order them for you. I have heard good things about his/her stock. :-D

Along with shrimp, you can add a couple snails if you like. I never realized how cool and pretty the little guys were until I had my own Mystery Snail. So much more personality than you would think!

The rest will have to be cratiqued by the others
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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

theres a nice little green rasbora too which shows up a great green


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## djembekah (Feb 13, 2012)

wouldnt do the gold nugget, they get too big for 20 gallons. but bristlnose plecos are so cute. i love mine  did just fine with bettas.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

yeah i thought the golden nugget got a little bigger than the others, i knew they were suitable for my 55.

the Bristlenose Pleco and queen arabesque though only attain around 5 inches tops, so good choices. And that queen is gorgeous! plecos though like loaches Prefer sand, as any sharp gravel can hurt them. (told you to get sand! nur! haha)

Looking forward to tomorrows advances


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Oh man!!!! I showed him the bristlenose and queen arabesque pleco's and the kuhli loaches and he LOVES them! So do I. Great! 
The gravel I got doesn't have sharp edges and the top layer is made of smaller pebbles. I'm wondering how far off it would be to add loaches or pleco's (when the tank is ready of course). 
I know they do best in sand but I've seen a lot of pics of them in gravel ...some acctually bigger than mine.
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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Your looking at waiting a few weeks really now before adding anything else. Let your tank cycle and the bacteria really start to establish in your substrate before more. If you rush you'll over tax things now. Patience is the name of the game


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

No issue in waiting. Don't worry. 

I'm just really considering them as an option with the gravel we have since I'm seeing lots of people who've done it online... Apparently with the loaches I'd have to make sure the intake and output of the filters are covered since they are prone to trying to go in there and end up dead...
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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I would carefully think through any of these fish. Now is the time to change the substrate if that is going to be better for the planned fish.

It is very true that many fish can cope with unsuitable substrates, but that shouldn't mean that any of us continue to do this. For years I kept corys in tanks with fine-grain gravel. They seemed OK, and for all I know they may have been so. But having changed to sand two years ago, and now seeing their behaviours, I wish I'd done it sooner.

A fish like the kuhli loach loves to burrow down into the sand; this is an essential part of its natural behaviours. If this species is intended, a sand substrate is best. And by the way, they spend a lot of time hidden. When you see them charging around in the bare store tank, that is because they are stressed out of their minds over their inadequate surroundings.

Byron.


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Thanks guys. Would adding sand to a portion of the tank work or would we have to change the entire thing?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Fishybusiness said:


> Thanks guys. Would adding sand to a portion of the tank work or would we have to change the entire thing?


This is possible, but substrates will mix together over time unless they are well separated in a permanent manner. 

When I was preparing to change the substrate in my 5-foot tank from fine gravel to sand 2 years ago, I considered something like this. I thought a deeper enriched substrate along the back (for the large sword plants) sloping down to a nice sand streambed along the front would be ideal to create an Amazonian riverbank setup. But the problem was keeping the two divided, and the only way to do this is with a barrier of some sort that is siliconed to the tank bottom glass and the side walls. There is a continual flow of water down through the substrate, and this plus the force of gravity will level out and mix the substrate. In my sand and gravel tanks, the nice terracing effect I create with heavy chunks of rock initially look wonderful, but within a few months the sand or gravel behind the rocks is lower and the front is higher.:roll: I end up with an even substrate regardless.


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

He's right. Unless you add a barrier, they eventually mix and the larger will end up on top. It happes no matter how careful you are. It ended up creating a neat effect for me when I added a couple handfulls of rainbow colored gravel to my sand which eventually ended up speckling the top of my substrate.
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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

Byron said:


> This is possible, but substrates will mix together over time unless they are well separated in a permanent manner.
> 
> When I was preparing to change the substrate in my 5-foot tank from fine gravel to sand 2 years ago, I considered something like this. I thought a deeper enriched substrate along the back (for the large sword plants) sloping down to a nice sand streambed along the front would be ideal to create an Amazonian riverbank setup. But the problem was keeping the two divided, and the only way to do this is with a barrier of some sort that is siliconed to the tank bottom glass and the side walls. There is a continual flow of water down through the substrate, and this plus the force of gravity will level out and mix the substrate. In my sand and gravel tanks, the nice terracing effect I create with heavy chunks of rock initially look wonderful, but within a few months the sand or gravel behind the rocks is lower and the front is higher.:roll: I end up with an even substrate regardless.


 
+1

I gave up the sloping substrate decades ago. I guess you could use some kind of barrier. I just dodn't

my .02


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

If we were to change to sand, what would it involve?

Draining the tank, uprooting the plants etc? Basically starting from scratch I assume?

I guess this w
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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

If we were to change to sand, what would it involve?

Draining the tank, uprooting the plants etc? Basically starting from scratch I assume?

What's involved in maintaing a sand tank? I know with gravel you'd vaccum, etc... I always thought sand was harder?

I guess this would all depend on how bad we want these specific fish.
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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

A good gravel vac will fluff sand, not suck it up, so same cleaning basically.

What I do is jar my fish (would be easy since you just have the Betta) and then scoop my gravel out of the tank with my hands. The plants just float in the water while I do it. Then, I take my sand (which was well rinsed and cleaned) and scoop it in the tank. When I get enough, I start putting in my plants. Finally, I float my fish in its jar so he can get use to the temp of the water and pour him in. All done! :-D
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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

Fishybusiness said:


> If we were to change to sand, what would it involve?
> 
> Draining the tank, uprooting the plants etc? Basically starting from scratch I assume?
> 
> ...


While that would be best some have had success just pouring the sand in. they usually pour it in through a pvc pipe and don't run filters or circulation then let it all settle down over a couple of days.

my .02


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Any recommendations on a good gravel vac and anything else I should know about sand?
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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

I actually have a thread up about changing my substrate from gravel to sand, if you would like to check it out. It's called Adventures of the 35G.


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Didn't want to start a new thread but I did want to guy everyone an update...

Got a thermometer, API master test kit, gravel vac and tomorrow I'll be getting another filter (30 gallon)...

Anyways- temp is at 76F

PH 7.5, Ammonia .25, NitrAte 0, Nitrite 0

Planning to do a water change and clean up tomorrow...also got some Seachem flourish to help the plants out a bit although they seem to be doing well.

Water got a bit cloudy about 2 days ago- getting different advice on how to deal. Some say change the water daily, some say leave it and it will clear. Not overfeeding..etc. Hopefully it will pass.


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

The cloudiness isn't something I'd be worried about, as that's most likely your bacteria getting established  I'd be more worried about keeping the ammonia down. After the water change tomorrow, check it again and then the day after. If it's at .25 again, I'd do a water change. Just to be on the safe side 

You still have the betta, if I remember correctly? And some anacharis? I'd maybe pick some more up next time you're at the LFS, as they suck up ammonia out of the water column. 

How are you loving the tank?


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

jentralala said:


> The cloudiness isn't something I'd be worried about, as that's most likely your bacteria getting established  I'd be more worried about keeping the ammonia down. After the water change tomorrow, check it again and then the day after. If it's at .25 again, I'd do a water change. Just to be on the safe side
> 
> You still have the betta, if I remember correctly? And some anacharis? I'd maybe pick some more up next time you're at the LFS, as they suck up ammonia out of the water column.
> 
> How are you loving the tank?



Thanks! Loving it so far (except for the slightly cloudy water now)... The betta is doing great- he's got such a personality! 

We have several plants...copying and pasting from the earlier post:
1 Anacharis 
1 chilensis
1 banana plant
1 Wisteria
2 cabomba


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

Bacteria cloud most likely. Could also be some of the finer sand particles. If you're worried, a pwc never hurts ;-)

I am so happy that everything is going well! How is your Betta? Did he ever get a name? And what did you finally decide for his tankmate? :-D
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Hopefully it will clear up on its own. 

The betta is doing great! He's got such a personality. He dances around, watches us and is super active. His name is MR. FISH.... Original right? My husband wanted to name him Mumphert. 
As far as tank mates we're still thinking. 
We like kulhi loaches, fire green tetras and dwarf gourami. Not sure how that's going to work but we have time to think about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Great news that your enjoying the tank!!! 

I ran the above fish through aqadvisor for you using a tetra whisper 30 as your filter and guessed your tank dimensions at approx 24 x 16 x 12...works out at 20 gallons.

Then added 2 dwarf gouramis, 6 kuhli loaches and 6 flame tetra..... couldn't find the green bit... are they a bred colour anyone etc so about the same as hyphessobrycon flammeus???

If so, and this is just a guide, rates your tank at 66% full with no compatibility issues..... however this is a computer programme and I'd opt to listen to people here about issues than that, but is a good 'guide' to stocking options, just not 100% fool proof.

I have 2 male neon blue dwarf gouramis and love them, always on show, not scared of anything nowadays and always come to see me  in a smaller tank I'd say a male and female would be better so hopefully they will pair up 


Also...mumphert!?! If he'd of found out about that he'd be sat in a corner sulking! With Mr Fish, he's a Boss! Haha


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Ahhh nevermind about the tetra Q I was looking for fire green tetra, found them as green fire tetra and out them in. Your capacity is now 67%. Rest of last post stands. Lol


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

lol! Lovin the name. That's Mr. Fish to you! :lol:

Kulhi Loaches will be fine. Not farmiliar with Fire Green Tetras (other than that all tetra are schooling and you will need 5+ to keep them from being fin nippers). The Gourami might be a risky addition with a Betta. Lots of horror stories out there about them attacking Bettas, especially if the Betta is a male! You might want to research that one a bit more :-/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## djembekah (Feb 13, 2012)

yeah. people dont recommend gourami with bettas, because they are fellow anabantids, and both pretty territorial.


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Oh I forgot to add in Mr Fish!

Including him.....

Your aquarium filtration capacity is satisfactory.
Your aquarium filtration capacity for above selected species is*100%.
Recommended water change schedule:*29%*per week.
Your aquarium stocking level is 71%.


*Warning:*Betta [Male]*is not recommended to be with*Dwarf Gourami*- further research is highly recommended.*

Though all this bas now been covered


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Thanks Nilet, BlueWind and djembekah- much appreciated. 

Yea the dwarft gourami's would be a risk ...kind of like the green fire tetras too IMO. If we do decide on them, we'll be taking MR. Fish out for a few, changing around a few thing and then adding him back after. We'll do that with each new species but the dwarf gourami would be laSt added. I guess we'll see. Still looking ...

And yes, Nilet those are the right dimensions. They were mentioned somewhere in here before but this became such a long thread I have no idea where...
Sorry about misnaming the fish- green fire tetras is the name not fire green..hehe

Aquadvisor is a good site (I used it) but some of the mixes that could work, the give a warning about. I guess it all depends on individual fish.

Planning to change some of the tank water (like 20%) and do another testing. It's still cloudy going on day 3 now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

Fishybusiness said:


> His name is MR. FISH.... Original right?


.... and they called him *MISTER* FISH. Nobody messed with him.

Jeff.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Fishybusiness said:


> Hopefully it will clear up on its own.
> 
> The betta is doing great! He's got such a personality. He dances around, watches us and is super active. His name is MR. FISH.... Original right? My husband wanted to name him Mumphert.
> As far as tank mates we're still thinking.
> ...


This thread is long enough that I can't remember what I may or may not have posted. But you have some issues in this planned stocking.

Betta are not community fish. I know some will say they have a Betta in with this or that and all's well, fine; individual fish may sometimes work, at least for a time. But all the pros who know will tell you what I maintain, Betta should be on their own.

This works two ways. Betta may decide that small fish are food; I had a beautiful Betta who ate neons easily. And othertimes the Betta will target bright fish as rivals. But there is also the reverse. Betta are sedate fish with flowing fins; to any characins (tetra, pencilfish) who have lots of teeth, this is like waving a red flag in front of a bull. Fin nipping is almost certain to occur.

In both of these cases, severe stress occurs to the targeted fish, even if no physical damage occurs.

Gourami and Betta do not mix because they are both territorial, as someone mentioned.

Byron.


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

In all honestly I am feeling fed up with the tank. My husband says he never expected it to be so much work- I told him if he can find someone -sell it! I just can't deal. I tested the ammonia this am and it was 1. The water still cloudy. Changed 50% of the water. Our puppy "helped", checked after- still 1. Water is still cloudy and two plants are dead.
I removed them but I just can't see this being something I want to do every weekend and I know he doesn't. It's his tank thoug! Sorry guys. Just feeling overwhelmed. _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Fishybusiness said:


> In all honestly I am feeling fed up with the tank. My husband says he never expected it to be so much work- I told him if he can find someone -sell it! I just can't deal. I tested the ammonia this am and it was 1. The water still cloudy. Changed 50% of the water. Our puppy "helped", checked after- still 1. Water is still cloudy and two plants are dead.
> I removed them but I just can't see this being something I want to do every weekend and I know he doesn't. It's his tank thoug! Sorry guys. Just feeling overwhelmed. _Posted via Mobile Device_


I understand the frustration, I have been there. I have had fish tanks for over 20 years, and currently have 7 running. I still see problems.

One thing to accept is that we are dealing with a very closed aquatic system, and there are many factors at work. Once an aquarium is established, things tend to remain stable. But getting to that point depends upon many things that interact.

First, remember that cloudiness is not a problem. It looks unsightly, but it will clear. I have had new tanks remain somewhat cloudy for several months, while others clear in a few days. It is almost certainly a bacterial issue, and it takes time to establish all this.

Ammonia at 1. Have you tested the tap water on its own for ammonia? Is there just the one fish in the tank now? What plants are dead (this is likely the cause of the ammonia if the tap water is zero)?

Byron.


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

I'm so sorry to hear that 

I know how it can feel. When I first started mine I got so frustrated sometimes, and kept thinking about scrapping it and throwing in the towel. Especially my first few water changes, I just got so irritated and upset.

I've learned to just take a minute to breathe, and go slowly. Work out the problems and don't freak out if something goes awry. I'm sure that in the beginning I was slopping about a gallon of water on the floor each WC, now after a few months I can do my 35% WC in about twenty minutes - filling time included. Now it's fun for me, because I've figured out how to always get the tube going without fishy water in my mouth (bleh!), and watching the Harlequin Rasboras play in the new water flow. 

I know at the beginning waiting for the tank to cycle is really hard. There is always going to be a problem or something happening. I learned not to freak out at every problem and to just handle them as the cropped up without worrying to badly. 

I hope it works out. If you end up selling the tank or not, I hope you had a least a little positive experience to look back on


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## Shewbert (Dec 16, 2012)

Enjoy your fishy experience, a 20gal tank is a good size for a beginner, relatively easy to maintain and there are a lots of nice sized colorful community fish you can buy, look at the guide on this site, then do some research on the fish that you fancy,
flip on to youtube and you can see may many aquariums with your choice of fish or search for 20gal community tank and you will see established tanks that will give you ideas of what your tank could look like.
Once you have made a choice get back on here where there are many people with many different types of fish to help you.
So for the moment just do your research, your tank can wait until you are ready to go,
it is so easy to make mistakes now,,,but regret it later when either your fish die or are in unsuitable conditions.
When you are ready to start we will talk you through your new experience.
You have power what fish go in a tank,,,but the fish have the power to what happens inside the tank.
Get it right first time
Ray


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Ahh fishybusiness I'm sad to hear this! All i can say is dont give up yet! The first few weeks are the hardest bit, getting your tank to cycle, and playing the patient waiting game with it. Once it all settles things will be easier! No one will sugar coat it here for you here, there will always be the chance of problems, sick fish etc, but if you look after them like i know you will from this thread your problems should hopefully be minimal through their lifetime! Though we never know....

Don't throw the stick in just yet, take it and swing it round your husbands bum! Force him to learn too how to water change etc and have him help out - or you refuse to cook for him etc - he'll soon get the point! trust me i know!


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

Don't let it all get you down hun! That 1st month is a doozie! But it gets better. ;-)

You can always keep the tank understocked and just have Mr. Fish in there. Later on, you can add some other fish when you get more experence. 

I would go with the Kulii Loaches later on. They tank frozen or fresh food, but boy are they cute!

If you decide that you just want some low mantenence additions, you can add some Cherry or Ghost Shrimp. They are little acrobats and lots of fun to watch. Low bioload, so no worries about them putting a burden on your tank. I would also add some Mystery Snails if you don't get Loaches because they are much more fun than they sound and they keep my glass perfectly clear! :-D
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AK Fresh Water (Jun 23, 2012)

The first few weeks can be extremely frustrating, especially for people just entering the hobby. Once your tank is established though, all you'll have to do is daily feeding and weekly water changes. Don't throw in the towel yet!


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

So I just wanted to give an update. I'm really sorry to dissapoint everyone who's helped me with this but my husband has come to his senses and will be giving the tank away. Lots of wasted money (and time) down the drain but he came to the realization that taking care of a tank and learning about it isn't something he wants to do. SMH. Thank you again to everyone!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

So sorry to hear that! Maybe sometime later down the road you guys might feel like giving it another shot? I understand though, it's not for everyone and you were forced in to it. I'm glad you gave it your best though.

Have you found someone who wants the tank?


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Yeah... I tried. Just not something I am ready for and he just liked the idea of having a tank, not the work. I'm so relieved.

A family member is going to take it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nilet699 (Dec 1, 2012)

Jennifer! Look at you trying to snag that tank already! :-D

I'm really sad to hear this fishy! I think you would have made a great fish keeper, and I hope one day you will. I can't blame you though, having it forced upon you and then not getting any help at home with it. 

And I hope you recommend us to your family member  And be sure to pass on what you've learnt ;-)

All the best


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

I wish I lived closer! I would have taken him in a New York minute :lol:

I am sad you gave up though. Most do. It's something you either love or you don't. Most of us never planned to be fishkeepers. It kind of just happens. I'm glad you gave it a shot though 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fishybusiness (Dec 27, 2012)

Nilet699 said:


> having it forced upon you and then not getting any help at home with it.


Ditto the above. 

Thanks again to all of you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

Nilet699 said:


> Jennifer! Look at you trying to snag that tank already! :-D
> 
> I'm really sad to hear this fishy! I think you would have made a great fish keeper, and I hope one day you will. I can't blame you though, having it forced upon you and then not getting any help at home with it.
> 
> ...



Guilty 

We'll miss you so much, I hope maybe one day we can see you here again, one day  I hope you can look back and smile on the experience!


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## Romad (Jun 28, 2009)

Better to admit that it's not for you rather than set yourself up for failure by not maintaining the tank.

If you decide to try it again, we'll be here. Good luck to you


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

And like someone else said, tell anyone who is interested in fishkeeping to come see us! And we will try to make sure Mr. Fish's new owner stays on her toes ;-)

Random Note: Why does his name make me think of Pumba from the Lion King? :lol:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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