# High pH Levels



## denrgb (Sep 14, 2010)

Hi everyone. I'm a freshwater beginner and I recently purchased a 45 gallon aquarium and set everything up to cycle (without fish). I let it go for about 5 1/2 weeks before finally putting in live plants and a few fish (2 Rainbow Sharks, 2 Angels, 2 Loaches, and a school of 6 Neon tetras). My levels all seemed pretty good. pH 7.0, Ammonia below .25, and low N2 and 3. 

I had the tank going what seemed really well for about 3 weeks. I did 25-30% water changes every week, and then all of a sudden a couple of my tetras died. I started testing the water and my pH shot up to 7.6. I tested my tap water and it has always been at 6.8. About a few days later one of my Angels died and then the other. I just did another 25% water change and my pH is still at 7.6. I made the mistake (or what i hear) of throwing in some pH down once a night for two nights. It obviously doesn't work. I've heard about the peat in the filter thing, but I'd rather not have yellow/brown water.

What are some other things I could do to slowly/safely lower the pH and get the aquarium stable again? Also, what would be the cause of the quick rise, and what can I do to not let it happen again?


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## zof (Apr 23, 2010)

Its going to help to know what kind of substrate you are using along with decorations in the tank. Also test your tap water again but this time let it sit over night before testing it again, sometimes tap will contain Co2 which will lower your pH until it leaves the water.

This is a good starting point but I'm sure others will come along with other ideas.


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## denrgb (Sep 14, 2010)

I'm using standard aquarium gravel for the time being. I wasn't too comfortable using sand just yet as I'm a beginner. It seems that sand is a little more hard to learn (or so I've been told).

I set some tap water out this morning, and I'll test it tomorrow and see what comes up.


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## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

I would assume that zof is right... Your water will probably be 7.6 after setting out.

The main problem is the fact that your tank isn't cycled. Aquariums won't cycle without something to produce ammonia.
Ammonia and nitrite is probably what killed your fish.
Ammonia and nitrite are also much more toxic when the ph is above 7, but there's not much you can do about your ph....

You could buy an R/O unit for a couple hundred dollars, and mix R/O water iwht your tap to reach your goal ph.
You could buy bottled water/purified water and mix with tap for the desired ph.

Both of these are expensive... Worry about cycling your tank.

What are ammonia and nitrite levels right now?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Agree with previous; let us know the pH of the tap water after 12-24 hours, that will tell us a lot.

And welcome to Tropical Fish Keeping forum.:wave:

Byron.


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## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

You can also just run an airstone in it for a few hours- that should drive all the CO2 out much faster.


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## denrgb (Sep 14, 2010)

Thanks for the welcome Byron. New hobby for me and the wife. We're lovin it so far. It seems we're at a different aquarium shop every other day learning this.

The 24 hour tap water has to wait another day (it got dumped by accident). Running an air stone in it now though.

I just tested the water again tonight (haven't done another water change yet) and here is what I have now.

pH: Still 7.6-7.8
High Range pH: 7.8
Ammonia: 0.50 (This shot up for some reason)
NO2: 0.25
NO3: 0.0

I'll let ya know the standing tap water ph test here in a few hours. Thanks for all the help!


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## denrgb (Sep 14, 2010)

OK I tested the tap water after letting it sit for almost a day and having air pumped into it for about 2-3 hours...

zof was right, the pH of the tap water is 7.6-7.8

What is surprising to me is the 2 rainbow sharks seem to be doing great. After a month, one of them is growing a ton. The wife and I noticed this tonight. The big one hides out in a rock all day and the other swims around the bottom. Otherwise they are always together.

What can I do now to get the pH down again to 7.0 so I can restock the tank with what I lost in the first place?

Thanks again for all the help. This forum is great!


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## zof (Apr 23, 2010)

Peat, RO/DI unit or a chemical reducer. Depending on your hardness the chemical reducer might or might not work well, but with how much your pH is fluctuating with co2 it may not be that hard so a chemical might work, but its highly recommended not to use such a product because you are adding unnecessary chemicals into your environment.

You also have to remember if your going to lower your pH its going to be much more work when you do water changes and monitoring your water.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Adding any chemical stuff to lower the pH will not work long-term, as I'll explain below. First more critical issue is the cycling.

Letting a tank "run" for 5 weeks or any period without a source of ammonia will not cycle the tank. There is a good article on the initial cycle at the head of this section of the forum, here is a direct link; please read it so you will have a better understanding of the "cycle."
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...inners-guide-freshwater-aquarium-cycle-38617/

Once you added fish, the cycle began, as that article will detail. With ammonia or nitrite above .25 the best action is a partial water change of half the tank water, using a good conditioner. Once a day will not hurt the fish--in fact, it will save them. Seachem's Prime is a good conditioner to use at this point because it detoxifies nitrite as well as ammonia, and as far as I know is the only one to do both. But the detoxification works for 24 hours, so a daily check is necessary.

Do NOT add any more fish until the tank is cycled; adding a fish means increasing the ammonia, and until the bacteria that handle the ammonia and nitrite are established, this will only throw off the cycle. You will know the tank is cycled when ammonia and nitrite both are zero for consecutive days.

I would also test your source water (tap water) for ammonia and nitrite; some tap water contains one or both, and this is worth knowing so you can be sure you are dealing solely with conditions in the tank. If there is ammonia or nitrite in your tap water, I can explain how to deal with that later.

Now, back to the pH issue. As your tap water test determined, the pH is 7.6-7.8 in your tap water. pH is connected to the hardness of the water. Hardness is the amount of dissolved mineral, mainly calcium and magnesium, in water. The hardness works to buffer the pH, keeping it where it is. When you add chemicals to lower the pH, they do temporarily, then the hardness buffers bring it back. The resulting fluctuations are far more stressful to fish than simply leaving it alone. So, do not use pH adjusters.

As for naturally and safely lowering the pH, this will depend upon the hardness. You could buy a test kit for hardness, but it is easier and less expensive to find out the hardness from your water supply people. Some have a website, or you can just contact them. We need to know the GH and KH if possible; GH is general hardness, KH is carbonate hardness. The KH is what does the buffering, but it is tied to the GH so knowing either will give us a good indication. Once you have the hardness, we can discuss ways of lowering the pH that will not be counter to the hardness. But without knowing the hardness we would just be stabbing in the dark.

Byron.


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## denrgb (Sep 14, 2010)

Ok I tested the hardness. 

GH 120
KH 100

I haven't lost any more fish as of now, and they look pretty decent. However I know most of whatever is left can take a higher pH.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

That's soft to medium hard, so quite good. Lowering the pH can be done by diluting the tap water with "pure" water such as RO [reverse osmosis] or rainwater (depending where you live, if it doesn't pick up chemicals it is fine). Peat in the filter will also work with this low a KH.


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## Chicklet (Feb 9, 2009)

> pH is still at 7.6.
> However I know most of whatever is left can take a higher pH.​


Nonsense. All my tetra's (Neons included are thriving in my High PH waters.
So are my Loaches, and when I had Angels they did great too.

Problem sounds like lack of properly cycling the tank. Not PH.
I'd Leave the Ph be and tend to the cycle, Messing with the Ph is gonna just cause more headaches then good anyways,..


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## Ostara (Sep 19, 2010)

I have to agree with Chicklet. My pH is around the same as yours and the neons I have in my tanks are in perfect health. Your high ammonia level is the likely culprit here, not your pH. Daily water changes while the tank cycles are a good idea. You can certainly work on lowering the pH if you want to, but concentrate on getting the tank cycled and the ammonia down first.


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## denrgb (Sep 14, 2010)

Thanks for all the replies and help. I've been learning tons over the past couple weeks. When I cycled my tank I did it fish less (fish food) and maybe didn't let it run long enough.

I'll keep up the water changes and checking the ammonia levels regularly for the next few weeks and see how it tuns out. 

The reason I thought the pH levels were high is that when I did a little research on the net the fish that were dieing had a typical pH level of around 7.0 (per wiki anyways) I really wasn't sure how that would work out as being a beginner and a perfectionist, I kinda wanted it to be pretty close, along with learning a bit along the way. I wasn't sure what kind of leeway I had on that. Then when it hit 7.8 and a few died, I started to worry.

Anyways, thanks for all the help and I'll keep an eye on it and try to get that ammonia down. Pics coming soon!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

A few things have been on-going in your aquarium, and it is not possible to rule out pH as one of the problems, though it may have been an issue more of fluctuating than stable if un-preferred pH. Characins are sensitive fish and while "this" or "that" on its own may bother them but not harm them, "this" plus "that" might do both.

In my experience the info on wiki species is fairly reliable. We have fish profiles here, second tab from the left in the blue bar at the top, and for those I have written (all the characins and cyprinids plus many others) the info on "preferred" water parameters comes from the majority of reliable and knowledgeable ichthyologists. When there are variations also from respected authorities, I say so to avoid any misunderstanding. As can be seen in several of the characins profiles, some species will "manage" in harder water but show clear signs that it is not "preferred" and we cannot always assess what damage may be caused internally by subjecting this or that soft water species to hard water. It is a fact that some species such as the cardinal will develop calcium blockages of the kidneys in hard water, and they do not live as long as they can in soft water, even though outwardly they "appear" fine. Many other species are undoubtedly similar.

This again is not saying that pH was the issue here; the cycling problems were probably more of an issue. But you are correct to research the needs of any fish you intend to acquire, and ensure they will be "comfortable" with what you can provide them. That I applaud; unfortunately many unknowingly acquire this or that fish without doing their "homework" and that is not fair to the fish which is a living creature that has certain limitations that must be recongized if we are to be responsible aquarists. 

Byron.


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## Chicklet (Feb 9, 2009)

Ph levels strongly effects how dangerous ammonia & nitrites become in your tank.

Basically it takes less ammonia to become more deadly the higher the Ph in your tank is.

You need to get the Ammonia under control, Get a proper cycle done.

To aid the fish during the ammonia and nitrite spikes you can add Aquarium salt to their tank, make it a tad easier for them to breath, And keep up the necessary water changes!,


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## denrgb (Sep 14, 2010)

Yeah, I understand totally. There are so many variations and ways things could go wrong etc. ie ammonia being worse in high pH levels. I have been soaking up information like a sponge through anything on the net and talking to people at my local store.

I'm learning a TON so far and I'm using this freshwater tank as a stepping stone to a saltwater and maybe even a reef. Before I take that plunge into my wallet though, I thought this would be a good start 

Back to the tank though. I tested it again tonight and the ammonia has dropped below the .25 which makes me feel a lot better. After testing I did another 30% change and cleaned the gravel a bit. I'll continue to test the ammonia and nitrite levels and hope it continues to cycle onward while I try to keep these guys alive. Overall though I don't see any signs of stress on the fish as of the last couple days. Going to cross my fingers.


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## denrgb (Sep 14, 2010)

Thought I'd share a quick pic of my setup so far.


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## Chicklet (Feb 9, 2009)

Very nice I'm sure the fishie are all gonna love it once things all settle down for them. 

"Remember, Less feeding during the time the tank is cycling and I would leave the gravel vacuuming alone until the cycles complete.


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## mdc928 (Sep 22, 2010)

Just a question on top of denrgb's question, what about driftwood and CO2? He said it is a planted aquarium and a DIY CO2 reactor is cheap and easy to build as well as good for the plants. I've read that they both play a part in naturally bringing down and stabilizing the pH levels. My tap water here comes out of the tap at about 7.8 but after doing both in my tank it hovers around 7.2.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

mdc928 said:


> Just a question on top of denrgb's question, what about driftwood and CO2? He said it is a planted aquarium and a DIY CO2 reactor is cheap and easy to build as well as good for the plants. I've read that they both play a part in naturally bringing down and stabilizing the pH levels. My tap water here comes out of the tap at about 7.8 but after doing both in my tank it hovers around 7.2.


CO2 lowers pH by adding carbon to the water. Driftwood also tends to lower pH by adding tannins, though this is usually minimally. Both are affected by the hardness, so the natural hardness of your source water (tap or well) has to be known and factored in. CO2 can cause significant and quick shifts, and as you don't normally run it at night, this creates further issues. "Stabilizing" depends upon both hardness and CO2 and how they react.

Personally, if the goal is to reduce water hardness and pH--and one must always remember that the hardness is key, lowering pH is not going to be easy in harder water--I would use RO. Plants will grow perfectly well without added CO2, and the issues CO2 creates is something I would rather avoid.


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## denrgb (Sep 14, 2010)

That was actually my next question mdc. One of my plants is starting to brown on a couple leaves. I know nothing about live freshwater plants, but I was thinking of killing 2 birds with the CO2. I could just have a bad plant.

Update though. Ammonia is down to 0 and everything is normal (cept for pH). I'm not really worried about pH anymore now though. Fish are great. No deaths or ich. I guess I just put everything in a week or two too early.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

denrgb said:


> That was actually my next question mdc. One of my plants is starting to brown on a couple leaves. I know nothing about live freshwater plants, but I was thinking of killing 2 birds with the CO2. I could just have a bad plant.
> 
> Update though. Ammonia is down to 0 and everything is normal (cept for pH). I'm not really worried about pH anymore now though. Fish are great. No deaths or ich. I guess I just put everything in a week or two too early.


Browning of plant leaves is most often due to a nutrient deficiency. CO2 is very rarely the solution, as carbon (CO2 or bicarbonates in harder water) is usually sufficient in most aquaria. But the other 16 nutrients may not be sufficient, and plants will stop growing (photosynthesizing) when one of the necessary nutrients is no longer available. Light may also ba the factor, either intensity or duration.

From the photo I wouldn't suspect light but nutrients. Are you adding any fertilizer, and if yes, which and how often?


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## denrgb (Sep 14, 2010)

No nutrients as of yet. However I did plan on it. Light COULD be a problem though as we might turn the light off more than often. I am getting brown alae (which I know forms in beginning tanks with low light). 

I'm thinking of getting a timer, to get used to a reef tank (which is my goal one day).


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

denrgb said:


> No nutrients as of yet. However I did plan on it. Light COULD be a problem though as we might turn the light off more than often. I am getting brown alae (which I know forms in beginning tanks with low light).
> 
> I'm thinking of getting a timer, to get used to a reef tank (which is my goal one day).


The problem is lack of nutrients. Plants need food every day, and their food is nutrients, 17 of them. Light will be of no value whatsoever if any one of the nutrients is missing. But algae will use the light and the plants will die off--and here I'm referring to green algae, not the diatoms you are seeing now. When the light tube diminishes too much, it is interesting that algae becomes more prevalent; the reason is that the plants can't use the light so they stop growing. Same thing happens with any nutrient. Plant growth is always as high as it can be with what is available in the necessary proportions. I go into this in more detail in the series "A Basic Approach to the Natural Planted Aquarium" at the head of the Aquarium Plant section if you're interested.

Some nutrients enter the tank via the water (calcium, magnesium, perhaps some others though water conditioners that detoxify heavy metals remove micro-nutrients like iron, manganese, copper, zinc), and fish food. But not sufficient to feed growing plants.

You need a comprehensive fertilizer, and I highly recommend Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium. It is the only one to my knowledge that has all necessary nutrients and in proportion to what plants need. Nutrafin's Plant-Gro also seems to do a good job from what others have mentioned here. Without fertilizer, your plants will not do well.


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