# My goldfish is gasping for air at PH 7.6



## virginiaholmes (Jun 11, 2013)

I have 2 comet goldfish. One is older. I just got another recently. The older fish always was gasping for air and I discovered my ornaments were rising the PH really high overight, so I removed all the ornaments and the ph is stable now around 7. THe old fish is happy. But the new fish is lethargic. I tested the water this new fish came in and the ph is rather high. So, When I raise the ph of the tank for the new fish, the old fish gasp for air and opens his moth really wide all the time. I tried putting the old fish in a lower ph (temporary smaller) tank with PH 7 and then this old fish is ok. I do not know what to do. I have a 10 galon fish tank and a smaller 5 gallon temporary fish tank. I would like to have both comets together but the ph is a factor of stress. The paramenters are fine. I keep my Ammonia levels in zero or 0.25. Doing water changes everyday. I do have a whisper filter with carbon included. I had been battling with PH increase still but not overnight. It always will go up, no matter what, even know there is no ornaments. only the filter runing. I use well water treated by a softener only, so it is soft well water. I use a water conditioner that removed toxic heavy metals (as my well water does have heavy metals) the softener does not remove. I am using, just today a PH stabilizer product but it sems does not work with my water, initially PH 10. Marineland, PH regulator. I tried it today. The old fish is not lethargic. He looks happy, but my old fish is struggling already. I will move him to a smaller tank with pH 7 again by himself if he continues to struggle. It is the only way to keep him happy. Why having fish is so hard?. Someone help me please!!


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## djembekah (Feb 13, 2012)

Your problem is probably tank size. ten gallons is so small, and goldfish produce so much waste, that they're probably being poisoned by themselves, to put it simply. Comet goldfish need VERY large tanks, and for a pair, i think you're looking at something more like 75, even 90 gallons. thekoimaiden has a lot of knowledge about goldfish, i will try and direct her to this thread
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I agree that two goldfish will very quickly need more space. But there is something else going on, even more urgent, with this gasping. And that is likely all the chemicals being dumped into the water.

Products that supposedly adjust water chemistry rarely work, and this is because of other water parameters that are all connected. And not only this, but these products cause fluctuating values which is even worse for the fish. So let's take a step back.

What is the pH of your tap water that you use for the fish? When testing tap water for pH, put some water in a clean jar with a tight fitting lid and shake it very vigorously for a couple minutes, then test the water. This outgasses the CO2 which can affect the pH.

Also, when you test the tap water, also test the aquarium water; no need to shake this, but don't test after a water change, wait 24 hours.

Once we have the two results, we can proceed. One other question too, are you using a water conditioner when you change water, and if so, which one? And are any other additives going into the aquarium?

Byron.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

You mention using softened well water... if you can get water from ahead of the softener and test it, you would be better to use unsoftened water or, if the water is too hard, cutting it with reverse osmosis or distilled water to bring the hardness down. I'm not sure what parameters are best for your particular fish.

The issue with softened water is that it has other minerals that replace the typical hardness, usually salt.

Between the softening and the other chemicals that you are adding this may just add up to too much in the water for the fish.

The tank is too small as well... but daily water changes can help at least with the water quality, which you are already doing. 

Jeff.


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## shireelf (Aug 19, 2012)

Everything that I have read is that the optimum pH for goldfish is 7.5. I agree with everyone else 10 gallon is way to small. I have kept a goldfish tank for about a year now and I've got 7 goldfish in a 55 gallon and I do weekly sometimes biweekly water changes on them to keep the water numbers where I need them to be. Remember comets can grow up to 12 inches if you keep them right so they will need that extra space.


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## virginiaholmes (Jun 11, 2013)

Byron, Regarding my comets goldfish. Here is how the water comes. I use well water. We do not have citiy water, so clorine is not an issue. 
-I use a softener for the tap water at home. The well water (before the softener) contains heavy metals and the water is very hard and the PH is high also. it measures (PH strip) about 10.
-The tap water after my softener is very soft, but alcalinity is 300 high and PH 9, the heavy metals are still present.
I make sure my water conditioner removes heavy metals. I lower the pH with PH down TOP FIN brand (which is sulfuric acid). I use a dropper. I dissolve 1/2 teaspoon of fresh water salt per gallon of water (sometimes less) as I learned the softener replaces the calcium and magnesium with salt. Should I stop the salt adding at all?
-I prepare a few gallons in a bucket adding water conditioner per instructions. I stirr well and let rest for 5-10 minutes. Stirr again and check pH. If pH is about 7.5 I do the water change. I add the nitrifying caterias in the tank after the water change. 
-My fish still gasp for air. I do water change everyday to my 10 gallon tank with 2 small comets I purchased at the store 2 months ago. 
-They just came back recovering from tail rot. They have lost their tail, but it healed with medication. They used to eat with apetite but I was concerned about the air gasping. Ammonia should not be an issue if I changed 3 gallons everyday. The filter is on track with weekly cleaning and montly replacings. 
-I do have a PH issue. My PH tends to go back high by itself after 12 hours. I tried lowering it back again but it comes back to high after 12 hours. If I do water change to control this, I am using lots of water and lots of PH down product and I practically live next to the fish tank, plus I am wasting the bacteria that I add to remove again after 12 hours. 
-I feel something is not right. I purchased a buffer product (proper PH 7 TOP FIN brand). It is a powder and it says it removes heavy metals and it is a water conditioner by itself. I used it, but the PH came back high again after 12 hours. This product claims to use salts to regulate the PH and alcalinity so I stopped adding salt to the water. 
- I purchased another PH Regulator (Marineland) it claims to keep the PH 7.2 - 7.8. but the PH keeps coming back high the next day. This is suppose to be used weekly only, but with my water changes 3 gallons a day, I need to replace it. I am not sure I can use it again in the same week. 
-Byron I am confused. 
For my comet fish that swim without tail but seem happy - because when they are in distress with all these products I just put them in a separate 2.5 gallon tank that I have prepared with just PH down product, water conditioner and a pinch of salt, they seem very happy. And the main tank (10 gallon) I just can not control. 
Sometimes I have had my fish in the 2.5 gallon tank for a couple of days recovering and doing twice a day 50% water change. and they eat and recover because they were not doing well in the bigger tank. I would like the can live in the 10 gallon tank, me do a 20% water change daily and see all the PH and alcalinity parameters on track plus see how the bacteria biofilter is working. All these water changes, do not let the bacteria work. I add bacteria and then I flush it and put new water and flush again. The water is on ZEROI ammonia because of my water changes, not because of the expensive bactreria I am adding and flushing. 

Please help me. - Virginia Holmes


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## virginiaholmes (Jun 11, 2013)

Byron, I sent you a detailed message about my tank and goldfish..


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## virginiaholmes (Jun 11, 2013)

Byron, I forgot to mention. For a while, before using my tap "soft" water, I used half Reverse osmosis water and half my tap "soft" water, with water conditioner and some salt. The fish was happy and It only needed one water change a day. The problem was that it was costly for me to buy water all the time for the water changes. We only buy this water for us to drink at home. So instead of making a montly trip to the water machine, I was going weekly and it was turning expensive. REcently I did buy RO water only for the fish while they were on medication for fin rot. Now that they are fine, I am going back to my own tap "soft" water and trying to fix it with products. 

Should I continue doing the Reverse osmosis water mixed with my tap water as best option?. If so, do I need to add salt?, buffer?. I still feel that I am flushing the bacteria by doing 3 gallon water change a day, but it scares me when I used to do 10% (1 gallon) water change a day, the ammonia raised and it seemed the bacteria were not working and my fished got ammonia burns. I started the 3 gallon water change and they never got those ammonia burns anymore. they faded. My ammonia measure is always Zero. is the bacteria needed at all with so many water changes and so much volume flushed everytime?

Thanks - I hope someone help me.


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## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

Hi Virginia
Can I just change the direction of this conv for a moment. The MAIN reason a fish will gasp on the surface is lack of agitation of the surface tension... Meaning when your filter is running on your tank, the "output" water must be above the surface of the tank's water and thus break the water tension when it is running properly. If an "output" is under the surface you will see an oily film look to the surface and all fish will start to gasp at the top. Water with a "still" water tension goes stagnant. As soon as this is corrected the fish recover.
Can you confirm that your filter is working correctly and that the water returning to the tank is above the surface? If not, or you cannot move it up, add an air stone and air pump to break the surface tension. 
Can you post a picture of your tank ?


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

virginiaholmes said:


> Byron, Regarding my comets goldfish. Here is how the water comes. I use well water. We do not have citiy water, so clorine is not an issue.
> -I use a softener for the tap water at home. The well water (before the softener) contains heavy metals and the water is very hard and the PH is high also. it measures (PH strip) about 10.
> -The tap water after my softener is very soft, but alcalinity is 300 high and PH 9, the heavy metals are still present.
> I make sure my water conditioner removes heavy metals. I lower the pH with PH down TOP FIN brand (which is sulfuric acid). I use a dropper. I dissolve 1/2 teaspoon of fresh water salt per gallon of water (sometimes less) as I learned the softener replaces the calcium and magnesium with salt. Should I stop the salt adding at all?
> ...


There seems to be a lot going on here, you need some simplification so you can get to the root of the issue.

Something not mentioned is water temperature, what do you keep it at? 

Seeing as the pH is already high AFTER the softener the first thing I would suggest is to ignore the pH as a factor initially. Also, seeing as the adjuster is not working, just stop using it, the swings are harder on the fish than a steady high pH is.

What is the GH and KH before the softener? I deal with hard water, as high as 23dGH (that's over 400 ppm) with a 18-19 dKH (over 320 ppm) and my pH rides just under 8. You can expect it to be a little high. If the water is too hard for the fish you would be better cutting it with distilled or RO water than running it through the softener. I just use it straight but I selected my fish accordingly.

Stop using the salt, although you already mentioned that you will, I thought I'd reiterate this point.

If your tank is somewhat established (anything more than 3 months perhaps) then you won't need to be adding bacterial supplements... particularly if you have plants... I don't recall, any plants in there?

If you are treating the water with Prime or something that deals with the heavy metals, that might be the only thing to keep up, although it really depends on what these levels are and I would suggest that you only treat the water that you are adding rather than the entire tank volume.... to be honest, I would sooner see you not treating the water at all, unless those levels are unusually high they are not of as much concern as all the chemicals and additives that you are already putting in.

If you are changing water every day, the surface will not stagnate and there should be no reason to worry about that even if your filter doesn't break the surface. Mine doesn't and I have next to no surface movement at all and no surface film layer develops to impede the gas transfer... so this depends on more than filter setup.

Basically, pull back to the simplest setup.Water changes with unsoftened well water. Let the water sit for a day before using it so the pH at least stabilizes and the CO2 off gases. Just do 10% to 20% changes for a week with this so the total water parameters going from the softened overly treated water to the well water are not too drastic for the fish. If your well water tests REALLY hard you can cut this with your bottled water if you need to, this will depend on the fish requirements though, but you need to know what it is first.

Stable is better than perfect.

Jeff.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Virginia, given what you tell us in posts #6 and #8, my surmise in post #3 was spot on. The problem is definitely all the chemicals and stuff being added.

[BTW, I didn't get any PM or whatever you refer to in your post #7.]

The pH adjuster is not going to work because the KH (carbonate hardness or Alkalinity) is high (300 is the number you give). KH acts as a buffer to resist pH changes, so the more "acid" you add to lower the pH, the harder the KH acts to bring it back. This continues until the point when the buffering capability of the KH is exhausted [I don't know how much acid has to be added, it depends, but if you just kept adding it this point would be reached at some time], and when that happens the pH will very suddenly "crash" and this would without question kill the fish as it would be very great. So stop using any pH adjusters.

Second, the salt (sodium chloride, or common salt). This is making things worse too, because salt affects fish metabolism and physiology; the more salt added, the worse it becomes. The fish have trouble respirating because the salt burns the gills, hence the gasping. Add to this the gill damage being done by the increasing pH acid, and you can imagine what the fish is feeling. Don't use salt. If it is marine salt, it is adding hard mineral salts as well as sodium salts, so this is just countering the effect of the softener and any attempts to lower the GH. I trust you can see what a merry-go-round this becomes. And again to repeat, because it is so critical in _any_ fish tank, never add substances to mess with water chemistry until you have determined all the chemistry issues, because they all interact.

Water softener. This is probably adding sodium salt to replace the calcium and magnesium salts. If you can use water before it goes through this, I would.

So, to the well water on its own (no softener, no substances being added). This will probably work fine for goldfish. In our goldfish profile, which was written by Lupin who has considerable experience with goldfish, he recommends a pH of 7.4 and above (no upper limit) and moderate hardness and harder (he says not soft water because of its effect on the goldfish scales). So I would just get to your well water and leave it.

Mixing with RO a bit would not hurt, and for some fish this would be necessary, but here I would not bother.

Byron.


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## virginiaholmes (Jun 11, 2013)

Thank you Byron. 

Sorry about recalling post #7. I wasn't complaining of you not responding, but I was testing why the post was placed at the end rather than under your post. 

I use sea salt water for fresh water fish tanks. I use it because it says that improves the gills function. I can discontinue. I thought I was doing a good to the fish by adding it to directions. 

I do not understand much the KH, and GH and I do not know how to measure it. The pet store only sells PH-Alcalinity- Nitrate-Nitrite-Chlorine strips and Ammonia strips. 

If you know the ideal numbers for a comet goldfish tank. Could you provide them for me, please?. PH range, KH or GH. 

Finally, the buffers they sell: I purchased a PH controller that claims to keep a PH 7.2 - 7.8 and that works no matter the initial water PH (be low or high). I tried it. It holds the PH for longer ( almost 2 days) but then the PH is back high. It claims to add escential electrolites and salts the fish needs. So, I stopped the sea salt as this buffer claims to add salts also. What do you think of this buffer product?. I agree, I do not want to keep adding acid to lower PH. 

Thank you so much. 
Virginia Holmes


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

> I use sea salt water for fresh water fish tanks. I use it because it says that improves the gills function. I can discontinue. I thought I was doing a good to the fish by adding it to directions.


I accept that there is a difference of opinion among freshwater fish aquarists on the use of salt. I am in the camp that says never use it, except to specifically treat a problem and then only with certain fish that can tolerate it. The majority of aquarists hold this view, but more importantly is the fact that the scientific community follows it. You can read more on salt in my article:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-general-articles/salt-freshwater-aquarium-188649/



> I do not understand much the KH, and GH and I do not know how to measure it. The pet store only sells PH-Alcalinity- Nitrate-Nitrite-Chlorine strips and Ammonia strips.


Unless one is adjusting the GH or KH, there is no need to be testing it, once you know the GH and KH of your source water (tap, well) because these values will not change much in an aquarium unless they are being targeted specifically (meaning, you are doing something to increase or lower them deliberately).



> If you know the ideal numbers for a comet goldfish tank. Could you provide them for me, please?. PH range, KH or GH.


I answered this in my previous post, at least partly. As it notes in our profile, the pH is fine above 7.4 and the GH is fine as long as it is moderately hard or harder. And yours is. KH has no impact on fish at all, but it does "buffer" pH. With your KH, the pH is not going to shift. 



> Finally, the buffers they sell: I purchased a PH controller that claims to keep a PH 7.2 - 7.8 and that works no matter the initial water PH (be low or high). I tried it. It holds the PH for longer ( almost 2 days) but then the PH is back high. It claims to add essential electrolytes and salts the fish needs. So, I stopped the sea salt as this buffer claims to add salts also. What do you think of this buffer product?. I agree, I do not want to keep adding acid to lower PH.


I do not recommend any of these products. The reason they are not working in your situation is the high KH/Alkalinity which is preventing the pH from lowering, as I explained previously. Leave it alone. I am not a chemist so I won't try to explain electrolytes and such, but believe me when I say that those that occur in your water are sufficient.

There is only one safe and effective way to adjust the pH, and that is by dealing with the GH and KH first. The pH is related to these. My article on this may help:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...water-hardness-ph-freshwater-aquarium-188705/

But as your goldfish will be fine in the water you have pre-softener, leave it alone. Messing with water chemistry is fraught with difficulties, and this fluctuating GH and pH will harm fish.

Byron.


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## virginiaholmes (Jun 11, 2013)

Thank you.

I'm trying this water pre softener with the water conditioner only (the one that eliminate heavy metals) and the nitrifying bacteria per directions. I have placed my fish in it.

Do you recommend to do not use water conditioner either?. This is well water straight from the well. It has no chlorine but it is PH 9 and Alcalinity 300 as the strip reading. (These are the highest readings the strip can read). I can not tell if the reading is higher.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

virginiaholmes said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I'm trying this water pre softener with the water conditioner only (the one that eliminate heavy metals) and the nitrifying bacteria per directions. I have placed my fish in it.
> 
> Do you recommend to do not use water conditioner either?. This is well water straight from the well. It has no chlorine but it is PH 9 and Alcalinity 300 as the strip reading. (These are the highest readings the strip can read). I can not tell if the reading is higher.


The water conditioner (which I believe is Prime, from earlier) will have no effect on the "hard minerals" that make the water hard, and a high KH and pH. Prime will detoxify heavy metals (irton, copper, etc) if any are present, along with ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Assuming you drink the well water, it is probably not contaminated with these. So, in this case, I would not waste Prime.


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## virginiaholmes (Jun 11, 2013)

Just for the record, the water conditioner I have and use for the fish: NovAqua Plus (Water Conditioner) - for fresh and salt water (KORDON brand). It says: 
NovAqua Plus adds: 
Protective skin slime coating, echinacea and natural electrolites and vitamins. 
Also DEtoxifies water by: 
Removing chlorine, Braking down chloriamines, Removing copper and other toxic heavy metals. 

Thanks for all the help and advice. 

Virginia Holmes


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## virginiaholmes (Jun 11, 2013)

Thanks Jeff !!

I had been discussing the topic of the well water and the soft water with Byron. You both are right. I am working right now with the well water before the softener and evaluating how the fish do. On a sad note. One of my 2 fish died today.

2 days ago I used a new PH buffer stabilizers powder (7.2- 7.8) range. It said it would keep the PH stable and it was a water conditioner also all in one product. I treated the whole tank and the one fish I had in it was letargic the next day. I moved it to a smaller tank without this product but he did not improve. Did not eat. Today, he died. 

Ny other fish is ok since I am treating him for tail rot. He is in another smaller tank. So, this is my last fish. I have placed him in the Well water tank and I am not using the PH buffer stabilizer ever again. I am evaluating him to see how he does. 

I wish I had never thought on trying to fix the PH. I remember I was using soft water mixed with RO water for a while and both fish were ok. It just happens that I have to take a trip to get this water and I thought I could just treat my water at home with products, that althought expensive, would last a long time. 

Thank for all advice Jeff, and Byron.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

You have learned the hard way that these quick fix chemicals rarely work, and even worse, they hurt the fish even so far as to kill them. There are so many products available for this hobby that are completely unnecessary; several are making a fortune at our expense.

Again, just in case it was not clear, there is absolutely nothing wrong with your water if you intend keeping goldfish, or any tropical hard water fish either. It is only if you decide to have soft water fish that something will be necessary.

On the tail rot, this is not likely fin/tail rot but more likely due to the chemical issues. Fraying fins results from a number of things. I would not use any medications (more chemicals) but just clean water. Regular water changes are the best cure for so much.

NovAqwua+ is a good conditioner, I used to use it and did so for years. But as I said before, with straight well water (assuming it is drinkable) this isn't needed. The less chemicals entering a tank, the better.

Byron.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

Byron said:


> NovAqwua+ is a good conditioner, I used to use it and did so for years. But as I said before, with straight well water (assuming it is drinkable) this isn't needed. The less chemicals entering a tank, the better.
> 
> Byron.


Virgina is concerned about the heavy metals enough that they don't drink the water. I doubt that the levels are high enough to affect the fish but I don't know what their tolerances are and don't know what the levels actually are either. 

Even so, I might suggest trying with no conditioners at all.

Jeff.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

JDM said:


> Virgina is concerned about the heavy metals enough that they don't drink the water. I doubt that the levels are high enough to affect the fish but I don't know what their tolerances are and don't know what the levels actually are either.
> 
> Even so, I might suggest trying with no conditioners at all.
> 
> Jeff.


Yes, this is the crucial issue, what exactly are the levels of any heavy metals. Fish have a lower level of toleranc e than humans when it comes to copper and such. But conditioners like Prime only work for 36-48 hours, then the toxicity returns, according to Seachem. Plants help as they can take up these metals.


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## virginiaholmes (Jun 11, 2013)

Wow, I did not know the toxicity of the metals comes back also !!!. So it does makes a Merry go round just like the PH when you try to fix it. 

THe fish was looking distressed in the 100% well water, so I did a 50% mix with RO water. He sems happy now. He ate with appetite and I am adding bacteria since I had to set up the tank again after my other fish died. That who tank was treated with the PH buffer stabilizer. 

Please advise me on the ciclying oon this tank. It is 10 gallon tank with one comet fish. The water is 50% well water (not softened) and 50% RO water. It has the NovAqua Plus Water conditioner only.

I am adding STABILIZER (Nitrifying bacteria) from Seachem Brand per directions: 
Rapid and Safe Establishment of Biofilter to Prevent "New Tank Syndrome" for Frshwater and Marine Tanks. 

It says: New fish can introduced at anytime as long as dosage is maintained for 7 days. 
I t also says I need to replace it whenever I do a water change. 

For my 10 gallon newly set up with only one comet (it is a one inch fish), how much water change should I do?, how often?. How long it takes to stablish the tank?.

I do check ammonia paramenters every day and since I do 3 gallon water change, my ammonia levelsd are always zero. I always replace the bacteria at every water change. I am not sure if my ammonia level is always zero (or almost zero) because of the bacteria is working or because I keep changing the water so much. 

This is how I do the water change: 1.5 gallons get flushed while using the syphon in the morning when cleaning the waste and uneaten food. And 1.5 Gallons get flushed during the same process at the evening. I feed my fish twice a day. Sometimes I use flakes but sometimes I feed peas I mash in the tank. THat makes the water very dirty. The syphon just gulps so m,uch water in so little time. So, I replace the water every time I flush it when cleaning. 

Please advice is this procedure are correct or what is the correct way to do it. 

Thanks again, 
Virginia Holmes.


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## shireelf (Aug 19, 2012)

Since it is only a one inch fish you can probably get away with a 20% change once a week, but keep an eye on your levels and adjust from there. Cycling the tank can take some time, once your ammonia and nitrite is down below 0.25(ideally 0) you know that it has cycled. The more experienced fish keeps may disagree with me but I've had four one inch goldfish in a 10 gallon and it was fine with a once a week change, so glad I've got my 55 gallon tank for them, since they are not an inch anymore. Sorry to here about your fish, but glad that things are getting sorted out. Good luck with everything.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

Your tank has an intact nitrogen cycle already, you don't need to add bacterial supplementation. Changing the water does not negatively affect this in any way as the ammonia and nitrite oxidization bio films are stuck on the surfaces of the filter media, glass rocks etc. You could drain it 100% and rinse it out and it will would still be fine.

Your cleaning looks great and if you clean it out twice a day and suck up the crap, that goes a long way toward eliminating ammonia sources before they become ammonia sources. 

Jeff.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I'm taking it that this is a new tank, a 10g with the one small goldfish. If this is a correct assumption, then I would use the Stability, I have used it in new tanks, and it jump starts the bacteria. With one small fish and using Stability you will not have any ammonia or nitrite issues, guaranteed.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

virginiaholmes said:


> -My fish still gasp for air. I do water change everyday to my 10 gallon tank with 2 small comets I purchased at the store 2 months ago.


I was left with the impression that the tank is at least 2 months old.

Jeff.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

If it has been running (with fish) for 2 months, then yes I agree there is no need to be adding bacterial supplement.

Virginia, perhaps you could clear up our confusion. I had taken it that you moved the surviving fish into this 10g and were asking how to cycle. Jeff thinks this is a tank that has been running with fish for 2 months.


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## virginiaholmes (Jun 11, 2013)

JDM said:


> I was left with the impression that the tank is at least 2 months old.
> 
> Jeff.


Yes, Jeff, I got fist comets back in April 4th. The second one I got it 1 month ago. I did notice that my fish were gasping for air even know I changed their water, but it started when I started trying to fix the PH adding Acid. The PH was about 7.5 - 7.6 and they were gasping for air. Before this episode, I was mixing soft water with RO and the never gasped for air. I just stopped doing this because it was costly to get RO water several times a week for me. 

Now, I have learned from all of you. I will stock up on several 5 gallon containers in one trip and mixed with well water (no softened). I will not adjust PH and I will only use conditioner and bacterias. I will focus on cleaning and water changes. 

Thanks to all. THe PH issue was driving me crazy.


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## virginiaholmes (Jun 11, 2013)

Byron said:


> If it has been running (with fish) for 2 months, then yes I agree there is no need to be adding bacterial supplement.
> 
> Virginia, perhaps you could clear up our confusion. I had taken it that you moved the surviving fish into this 10g and were asking how to cycle. Jeff thinks this is a tank that has been running with fish for 2 months.


 
Byron, 

The 10 gallon tank started runing with one fish in April. Then I got the second fish a month ago (4 weeks). The first fish died. The surviving fish is living in the 10 gallon tank. The tank never had been runing continuously. I never knew if my tank cycled because I was recommended (by the Expert at the Pet Store) to make 25% water change daily, 50% water change weekly and 100% water change monthly. 

So the tank had been empty and scrubbed with hot water at least 2 times. Not counting with this episode of my dead fish, I empy the tank again because it was treated with that PH buffer and I rinsed it, plus when the fish got fish rot, I was advised by the Pet store expert to clean the tank so once the fish be done with treatment, it does not get sick again. 

I do have a 2.5 Gallon smaller tank I use as hospital if I need to. The surviving fish was there on treatment for fin rot while the other died in the just treated 10 gallon tank with the PH buffer.

I was attached to my first fish. He used to swim to the surface when I talk to him over the open top of the tank. It looked like he was a puppy wagging his tail coming to me when he saw me. :-( . I never had fish before so I did not know they were so smart and affectionate. 

I have a note for you: My daughters (7 and 5 years old) won each one a goldfish at the school festival in February. I had no experience caring for fish. I put them in the 10 gallon tank with "softened water only" and TOP FIN water conditioner. I bought goldfish flakes and I bought a air stone. They died in 2 weeks. I never used bacterias or filter. I was changing 50% water once a week. It does not seem bad, but they died.

My kids begged for new fish, so I got really serious about it. So, I went and got only one fish in April (he died). I started measuring paramenters and I got confused with the PH. You know the rest of the story. I have one fish and I want it live the life it was meant to be.

I hope I clarify any confusion. 

Virginia Holmes 

P.S. I wrote a letter to PETA and to the School Principal for giving away live animals as prizes. After that Festival, I hear that most fishes died. A fish is a serious matter. Because it is a 1 inch fish, does not mean their lives are worthless. Animals are not toys or disposable.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

That clears things up.

It is unfortunate that the advice from the store was so inaccurate, about doing a 100% cleaning every month. This destroys everything you need in the way of bacteria.

In practice, the longer an aquarium is running, and assuming it is "balanced" to begin with and regular water changes are being done, the more stable it should be. All life on this planet depends upon bacteria, and fortunately the good ones appear where needed and do their thing without interference from us. We should encourage them, not do "100% cleanings" to destroy them. And this you have now learned, as we all had to learn.

If you aren't tired of reading, here's my little article on bacteria which may help in understanding how complex it really is, and how crucial to a healthy aquarium:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-general-articles/bacteria-freshwater-aquarium-185721/

There are other articles in our reference section that may provide assistance on various aspects of keeping fish. In time, all of this becomes second nature.

Byron.


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## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

Virginia, I'm so glad you ended up here and asked your questions!! Believe it or not we all started this way.... I can't believe what I have unknowingly put my fish thru! What they amazingly survived! And yet many did not! 
If you believe that while in your care that you should do your best for them, give them the biggest home you can, you are modeling for the kids and you will succeed. Sadly death is a part of their education even tho we don't want to think about it. And sometimes its just happens no matter what we do. Read lots!, ask lots of questions! pop into the chat room if you need help at night, that's when it's busiest. You are on the right track!!


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## virginiaholmes (Jun 11, 2013)

Thanks Byron. 

I am not tired to read. THe article is very interesnting and I can see how the nitrifying bacteria is affected by pH and temperature. I can see how the PH adjustments I was doing were so harmful and I will keep in mind that I should ensure stable temperature in the winter, since bacteria lower their efficiency 50% when it is less than 80 F. Will I need a heater?. 
I have a question: Is it true that you can never add too much bacteria to the fish tank?. 
Regarding my tank, I am checking ammonia levels.Will I see the ammonia rise and then drop in a few days as the literature says?. Will that harm my fish in it?. How long does it take to stabilize a tank? (10 gallon with one fish). The literature says that sometimes is better to stabilize (do the cycliing of the fish tank) without the fish because fish do not resist this. 
I am concerned about this. Do you have any information I can read about it, or your own experience?
Thanks
Virginia Holmes


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

virginiaholmes said:


> Thanks Byron.
> 
> I am not tired to read. THe article is very interesnting and I can see how the nitrifying bacteria is affected by pH and temperature. I can see how the PH adjustments I was doing were so harmful and I will keep in mind that I should ensure stable temperature in the winter, since bacteria lower their efficiency 50% when it is less than 80 F. Will I need a heater?.
> I have a question: Is it true that you can never add too much bacteria to the fish tank?.
> ...


Don't fuss over the temperature for bacteria, this is not important when it comes to your cool-water goldfish that do* not* need heat and should not have it. The bacteria will still be there, just more slowly. Things balance out.

As for your tank, you should not see any ammonia or nitrite. This tank has been running for 2 months with fish. And now there is only one fish, so the ammonia is not going to be enormous. And, you mentioned the bacterial supplement Stability and I said to use it as directed. It can do no harm.

Byron.


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## virginiaholmes (Jun 11, 2013)

Thank You Jackiebabie ! ..... I lke this site. Everyone is friendly and there is lots of knowledge. I am glad I found this site.


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