# One Angelfish getting aggressive



## HollyinWA (Dec 29, 2009)

Hi Everyone,

I have not been on here much....just too busy with things. My 56 gallon still has the same stock in fish. I am waiting for the smaller Angelfish in my daughter's tank to get big enough to be put in my larger tank that has the older Angels (2 of them - one larger young adult (not quite fullgrown) and one older teen that is not quite fullgrown). One of the other Angelfish in my daughter's tank may be large enough but I did not think it was a good idea just to introduce one new Angel...too much chance of aggression on one new fish. So, I am going to wait longer. Anyway, the two black Angelfish in the big tank have been together since the store. They were together in the store and have always gotten along real well...came from the same local breeder. The larger older one has always been Alpha but has never been really mean or nipped to the point of ruining the look of the perfect top fin. I just noticed yesterday that the smaller Angel's fins looked frayed from nipping and then later I notice him/her hiding. I went to bed concerned. I got up...same thing hiding and then when I fed them the smaller one came out to eat but is now having to hide again. I have seen the larger one chase the other one much more aggressive than ever before. I have never had a problem with Angels being overly aggressive, but I know that some can be. I think I read somewhere that the double black ones can be but I don't know what they are and if mine would be considered double black. 

What should I do? They have been living peacefully since January. If I go in and try to fine a couple more large Angel's (if any), than I won't have room to put the other two when they get too big for that othger tank. I am thinking maybe I should put the one that is getting picked on in the 14 gallon for now until I figure out what I can do. I hate getting rid of my fish (taking them to the fish store). He/she has been so happy in the tank up until now and who knows what conditions it can go to or what kind of owner he/she will get. 

Any advise? To me, the only thing I can do is remove him and then either chance putting him back in with the other one that is probably big enough at the same time after this one gets his pride back. And then just leave the small little guy in the 14 gallon to get bigger. 

What do you think? Thanks!


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## HollyinWA (Dec 29, 2009)

P.S. I noticed yesterday that the Papilla was very pronounced on the larger aggressive Angel but not as much today. The other fish still wants to hide. I just hate this. They have gotten along so well ever since I got them and nothing has changed in this tank. It was not like they were real small and then grew into dominent fish. They have always been the size to where they would already become aware of pecking order, etc. The larger one has always been Alpha since I have had them.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Hi Holly, nice to see you back, we've missed you. Hope all's well on the "ranch."

Angelfish are shoaling fish and are cichlids. With these two traits, they should either be in groups (minimum 4-5) or a mated pair. While certain fish may seem fine one day, their instinctive nature is still there and something is bound to trigger it at some point, as you've witnessed.

To avoid returning either fish, if it were me I would move the aggressor into the other (smaller) tank on a temporary basis, and up the group in the 55g with 3 more fish. Once they are settled, give them a couple months, put the larger back in. I suggest this rather than the reverse because if the aggressor remains, it will always be his territory and anything added will be second fiddle. Moving him out and getting another community established will result in his return being as the newcomer. I can't guarantee this, but it is worth the try, as the other option I see would be to return him and start with new fish.

Byron.


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## HollyinWA (Dec 29, 2009)

Byron said:


> Hi Holly, nice to see you back, we've missed you. Hope all's well on the "ranch."
> 
> Angelfish are shoaling fish and are cichlids. With these two traits, they should either be in groups (minimum 4-5) or a mated pair. While certain fish may seem fine one day, their instinctive nature is still there and something is bound to trigger it at some point, as you've witnessed.
> 
> ...


Hi Byron! Thank you for the return welcome.  I feel bad not participating much these days. I should have more time in the very near future. 

I agree with you. I ended up not being able to add more at one time because I was barely ready for the two that I got. I just had to have them. My tank was not cycled long enough at the time to put more in there. I was fortunate to get the two that seem to get along so well...almost like they are a pair but not sure. Sometimes, it is hard to find the larger juviniles so I ended up nabbing the two small ones one day -- one small and one very small. I probably should have just waited to see if I could have gotten two larger ones, but I love to raise them small and since the two black ones were doing so well for awhile I was not real worried about it. 

I agree with what you are saying regarding doing the reverse. I am such a softy and hate having to put any of them in the smaller tank. He will hate it in there! LOL I have the small angels in there too so not sure what he will do with them. Should I put the smaller ones in with the underdog in the bigger tank and move the aggressive one to the small tank? I am tempted to get a larger tank to replace the 14 gallon, but really do not have the right spot for it in my daughter's room. 

I have to go somewhere today, and now I have this on my mind. :-? Thanks for the advise. I will muddle it over.


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## HollyinWA (Dec 29, 2009)

P.S. I meant to say that since I had always been successful with two Angelfish in the past and since these seem to get along well I thought they would be fine until the other two small ones got big enough. But, now that I think about it, I know for sure my last Angels I had several years ago were for sure mates...they spawed. The two I had as a kid were mates as well. It was looking like these two could possibly be a mate but I have not been able to tell for sure. 

Yesterday, the larger one's Papilla was very pronounced.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I would move the smaller angels in to the 55g with the underdog, yes, and the aggressive angel on its own in the smaller tank. On a temp basis this will be OK. B.


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## HollyinWA (Dec 29, 2009)

Byron said:


> I would move the smaller angels in to the 55g with the underdog, yes, and the aggressive angel on its own in the smaller tank. On a temp basis this will be OK. B.


 
Thanks Byron. I am back home now and need to figure out what to do. The one is still having to hide except for during mealtime. I think I will try to put the smaller ones in the big tank with the underdog. The one though is still pretty small so not sure how well it will work out. I don't think I want to try just putting the one smaller one that is bigger in the bigger tank because than the underdog may get too aggressive towards the younger one. I do have another 10 gallon tank if worse comes to worse...can put the smaller ones in there if they can't work out well enough in the bigger tank. I feel bad though that the one that is being a stinker has to leave his home. I suffer over things like this. :roll: I will let you know how it goes.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

We can only do the best and then hope for the best. In your case I am hopeful that it will work, isolating the large bully on his own and putting the others together in a roomy (to them) 55g space.

Byron.


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## HollyinWA (Dec 29, 2009)

Byron said:


> We can only do the best and then hope for the best. In your case I am hopeful that it will work, isolating the large bully on his own and putting the others together in a roomy (to them) 55g space.
> 
> Byron.


Thanks Byron. You are right...we can only do the best we can for them. They are all transferred. I feel bad for the big bully being in a 14 gallon tank, but maybe when I try to put him back in it will all go better. I actually put the two small ones in with the Bully in the big tank just to see what he would do. I was hoping maybe it would take his attention off the other black one. It did but he went after the quarter sized bodied one. I then thought maybe I could put the little guy in the 10 gallon and see how he does with just the other smaller but not so small one along with the other black one he picked on. I decided not too because felt like by just adding one, that would not be enough. I went ahead and took the bully out and put him in the 14 gallon tank. He looks aright but I still feel bad. So far so good in the big tank. The bullied black one is out and about. He nipped at the middle sized Silver Angelfish once but no big deal. I certainly amount of pecking order establishment is ok. He has not gone after the little guy at all and they seem to be swimming together....all three. Things can change though. I will see. Hopefully, nothing will change overnight when I am sleeping and cannot keep watch. 

Thanks again!


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## HollyinWA (Dec 29, 2009)

How many days or weeks should I wait before I try to put the bully back in?


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## HollyinWA (Dec 29, 2009)

All three Angels in the big tank are still doing fine this morning.....larger black one, and two small silver angels (one being pretty small - body a little smaller than a quarter). 

The big black one in the 14 gallon is as pretty as ever but looks bored. I don't go in that room as much so I think he is lonely. He does not have any fish in there with him. I took the two guppies out and put them in the 10 gallon guppy tank in my other daughter's room. I feel bad for him. 

How long do you think I need to wait before I try to put him back in the 56 gallon? How many days or weeks?


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## HollyinWA (Dec 29, 2009)

P.S. Just posted, but reread your first response, Byron, and you said a couple of months. Gee, I hope I can hold out that long.  My heart aches for the happiness of the big bully. :roll:


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## HollyinWA (Dec 29, 2009)

I found this while reading online:

_Strains such as Double Dark Black angelfish tend to be very aggressive. Consequently, you see very few angelfish breeders offering this fish for sale. We need to breed for angelfish that exhibit good parental care and that are not aggressive towards their mates. This cannot be reliably judged in juvenile angelfish, so you must be willing to only breed angelfish pairs that exhibit the proper behavior._ 

I know for sure my black Angels are the double black from viewing pictures. They may be a pair. They always seemed to me that they were actiing in ways that pairs do or at least acted like they were trying to pair up, but have not yet spawned. The day that I noticed the real aggressive behavior was on a day that the large one's padilla was very prominent. If they are a pair or if the big black one wanted to pair up, I sure feel sorry for him/her...he/she is alone and most likely wondering where the "mate" went.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

As for how long, the point in this is to get the other 4 now-small angels up to a size that the aggressor can be put with them and because he will always behave the way he is programmed (does the leopard change its spots? they say) the idea is to have a group of 5 that will mean no one individual is picked on but it is spread around naturally. If that does not work, and one fish is still singled out, then the answer would be to get rid of the aggressor. Otherwise, you will have a tank of very stressed, and therefore prone to disease and health problem, angels.

This is the same strategy we use with difficult characins like Serpae, or with Tiger Barbs. A large group to avoid single fish being harassed mercilessly, and in sufficiently-sized tanks. Then the natural behaviours of the fish can play out with minimal consequences. As an aside, I read an article by Iggy Tavares in the current (May) issue of AFI on Serpae, and he recommends nothing smaller than a 90g aquarium, and a group of more than 8 (8 the absolute minimum) serpae, and well planted. Then, the aggression of the dominant fish will be spread around the group, and the plants will allow for periodic hiding or refuge places. And the 90g allows for other fish species which also helps to diffuse the bullying. 

But the fish are the way nature made them. We can't change that. We can provide an environment that will hopefully work to reduce the tensions. And some fish seem less inclined to act "naturally" than others, just as some dogs behave differently than others by instinct. And people too.;-)

Byron.


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## HollyinWA (Dec 29, 2009)

Thanks, Byron. I totally understand. I actually only have three Angels in the 56 gallon....three different sizes, black one is the biggest and then a very young silver and even a younger smaller silver. I would have to go get another one to make it 4 in there now and then 5 when I return the bigger black one. I may end up upgrading my daughter's tank to a larger community tank. If so, that would be better for the big black bully. In the meantime, should I get the bully a tankmate? Obviously, not another Angel but some kind of other fish? I don't want to chance bringing in desease though. He just looks so lonely. 



Byron said:


> As for how long, the point in this is to get the other 4 now-small angels up to a size that the aggressor can be put with them and because he will always behave the way he is programmed (does the leopard change its spots? they say) the idea is to have a group of 5 that will mean no one individual is picked on but it is spread around naturally. If that does not work, and one fish is still singled out, then the answer would be to get rid of the aggressor. Otherwise, you will have a tank of very stressed, and therefore prone to disease and health problem, angels.
> 
> This is the same strategy we use with difficult characins like Serpae, or with Tiger Barbs. A large group to avoid single fish being harassed mercilessly, and in sufficiently-sized tanks. Then the natural behaviours of the fish can play out with minimal consequences. As an aside, I read an article by Iggy Tavares in the current (May) issue of AFI on Serpae, and he recommends nothing smaller than a 90g aquarium, and a group of more than 8 (8 the absolute minimum) serpae, and well planted. Then, the aggression of the dominant fish will be spread around the group, and the plants will allow for periodic hiding or refuge places. And the 90g allows for other fish species which also helps to diffuse the bullying.
> 
> ...


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## HollyinWA (Dec 29, 2009)

P.S If I can find maybe two or three good sized Angels, I could put the two smaller ones back in my daughter's tank until I upgrade and then put the bully back in and he would have three or 4 to divide his attentions. If I would not have fallen for these black ones at the time, I would have gotten 4 or 5 young ones at one time. These double dark black ones are good looking!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Just make sure you let the new angels settle in well before re-introducing the aggressor. If the new fish are settled and form a group (and 3, 4 whichever is fine, I had earlier thought there were 4 for some reason), the re-introduction of the problem fish may work better as he will be the new kid on the block. And with comparable-sized fish, it is more of an even playing field.

Byron.


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