# I caused my two tanks to crash!



## barbaraanne (Mar 4, 2013)

Help, I am a brand new user and I have read a lot on here already, including the beginners guide to the nitrogen cycle, and many, many posts about how to lower ammonia in my tanks, but I now have a serious problem...

First of all, I started my first 10 gallon tank 8 weeks ago with a few guppies that my son had brought home from college, and basically no knowledge of cycling my tank at first. However, things seemed to be going along fine, all fish thriving, having babies, etc. I bought several live plants for the tank, then bought a second 10 gallon tank for the mommas to give birth in, which they did. Both tanks have live plants and they both have TWO filters each, one an in-tank model, one a hanging-on-the-back kind, figuring they were fairly small tanks with numerous fish. I then had 10 adults in one tank, two in the other with about 14 babies, and all fish were doing well. I was doing 25-30% water changes every week to 10 days.

Then, after the tanks were over a month old each, I stupidly changed all four of the filter bags/pads in each of the four filters at the same time, during a water change and gravel sucking, simply because the directions said to change the bags/pads each month. I immediately started noticing ammonia building up. I did water changes and added Ammo Lock to each tank. It was then that I realized that I had destroyed the beneficial bacteria by removing and changing all of the filter media.

It is now 10 days since I changed the media, and my ammonia levels (which include ammonium since I keep adding Ammo Lock with each water change, which I was doing every day at 30%) are above 8.0! The fish are still living because of the Ammo Lock, but sometimes seem a little stressed. I have cut my feeding way back to as little as possible and am continuing to do water changes at 30%, now every other day, adding a full dose of Ammo Lock each time, and also dosing with Quick Start and/or Stress Zyme with each change. Is there any difference between the bacteria supposedly in API's Quick Start and that in API's Stress Zyme, and which is better? Can I add it too often?

One tank is now showing a little nitrite and nitrate, and may be beginning to cycle again (I hope), but the ammonia/ammonium levels are still reading off the charts. The other tank is still not showing any nitrite or nitrate (maybe a trace of nitrate?) and seems to be stalled at off the chart ammonia/ammonium levels too. The fish in that tank don't seem as active as the fish in the other tank, and there are only six fish in that tank now, having moved four more adults over to the baby tank. After a water change, they seem even more stressed, sitting at the top.

I have read two opposing views as to what to do now. One is to stop doing the water changes so much because it is slowing the bacteria from growing. The other is to do more and bigger water changes, every day to get the ammonia levels down. I can't tell the bad ammonia from the okay ammonium with my API dropper test kit, so I keep adding Ammo Lock every other day to the water I am replacing.

My PH levels are 7.6
GHI 150
KH 180

Do I keep doing water changes, and if so, how much and how often? Should I keep adding Ammo Lock and either Quick Start or Stress Zyme, and which one? Should I still be doing gravel cleaning with each water change? I swished out the filter media in tank water this last time and put them back.

What will fix my high ammonia/ammonium levels and is there a test to distinguish the bad ammonia from the harmless ammonium? I have Accu Clear a couple of times too, does that hurt the cycling?

Thank you so much for your help in advance!!


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

I can't say anything as to the chemicals, but were I you I would do daily 50% water changes, just to be safe, even with the Ammo Lock. I'm not familiar with that product but I guess it's the same as Seachem's Prime, which converts ammonia to ammonium. Now, you say you have live plants? What kind? Live plants will help a lot in your situation, as they take up the ammonia as a nutrient. I would get even more live plants, and look for fast growing ones, such as anacharis, wisteria, dwarf hygrophilia, and look into floating plants such as water sprite and dwarf water lettuce, even duckweed.

What is Accu Clear? You're adding a lot of chemicals, and these may also be detrimental to the fish. IMO, I would stop using everything except for the Ammo Lock and whatever water conditioner you use to detoxify chlorine/chloramine, and do daily 50% WCs. 
I've never used bacteria in a bottle, but I know there are a lot of mixed reviews on them.


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

Also, yes, I would keep cleaning the gravel to remove any fish waste/uneaten food that is in there. I would also stop feeding the fish completely (they won't starve, they will be perfectly fine without food for at least a week) to prevent adding even more ammonia to the problem.


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

Hello and welcome to the forums. To answer your question about if there its a test kit for measuring ammonium or ammonia, test kits will read them as the same. If the pH is below 7 than the ammonia is in the form of ammonium above 7.0 and it will be in the form of ammonia (very simplified explanation). I would continue to do water changes on a daily basis of at least 50%, by doing this you at diluting the amount of ammonia that is in the tanks. Many use prime which also acts as a water conditioner. Also as the OP suggested adding more plants to the tank will help, floating plants being the ideal choice.

As for using something like Tetra safe start, I myself would advise st this point not to use it. I have used it on several talks that I started up and it had worked well, buti have used this right at the beginning. My reasons behind advising not to use it at this point is as follows, when using this product it advises you not to do any water changes, if I remember right they say for two weeks, sorry it has been a little over a year since I last used it so my mind is a little fuzzy on some of the specific details of the instructions. During this time there will be readings of ammonia nitrites and nitrates. When I had set up my convict tank I tested daily and tracked the numbers, can't remember if I recorded the numbers in the log on my deuteron page, might have I would need to take a look to see if I did or not. I did do my water change earlier than what the directions said but I waited for almost a week I believe again would have to check to see what I recorded. With the levels that your ammonia is at right now for the health of your fish and trying to get them through the cycling process I would definitely be doing daily water changes.


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

Had edited my above post to add more info, but it didn't seem to save. I did check my aquarium logs and I did record the results I was getting. I tested every day and when there was a change I recorded it here, I did start doing water changes about 7 days in, also recorded in the maintenance log. For another comparison if you want to look I used tetra safe start also on my 50 gallon tank. With this one I had added the safe start after the fish had been in the tank for a day out two if I remember right. Also if I remember correctly I was using test strips at the beginning if that tank. That was my first tank that I had set up and had made several newbie mistakes with, luckily with forums like this one I was able to get on the right track;-)


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

Welcome aboard!

You are on the right track. 

Changing water does not affect the bacteria as they reside on surfaces, primarily the filter media (as you well know now) and the substrate... which even gravel vacuuming doesn't really affect. Keep it up at 25% to 50%... or even more due to your current issues

Cut your chemicals down to either the ammo lock with de-chlorinator or just Prime, which does both. Fewer chemicals the better unless you are actively treating something.

The super high ammonia will inhibit the nitrite eating bacteria from propagating and doing what they do, so it will slow down the process, but as soon as the ammonia drops back to below 1ppm, they will start kicking in. So expect the nitrites to spike first. I don't know if ammo-lock will even help here as it may only be for ammonia but Prime also renders the nitrites non-toxic. As soon as the ammonia is steadily below 1, the lower the better, and the nitrites also drop off expect the nitrates to climb and continue water changes to keep them below 10ppm.

Plants will help with the ammonia, in fact enough plants will render the cycle process unnecessary... but for now they can just help the situation. The issue with plants would be that you need adequate lighting though. Stock starter kit lights won't always do so you would have to at least change out the bulbs for plant friendly ones (6000 to 7000 kelvin, which is the colour temperature).

Ammonia (toxic) and ammonium (non-toxic) remain in an equilibrium that is dependent upon the pH of the water. The higher the pH, the higher the ratio of ammonia to ammonium, the lower the pH the reverse occurs. What the ratio is and how much of each is present is less important than just getting the total amount down. The test kits typically test for a combined ammonia concentration. 

Oh, don't use accu-clear, just another chemical and all it does is helps to clear the water of particulate which is a non-issue as far as getting the tanks cycled again.

Jeff.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Welcome to Tropical Fish Keeping forum.:-D

I agree with the advice given by other members, totally.

Never use clarifiers (Accu-Clear or similar) as these work by binding particulate matter but also bind the fishes' gills, causing additional stress on top of everything else.

Byron.


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

Also, that tank will become cloudy as part of the cycling process, this is totally fine and means everything is going as it should. Don't worry about the cloudiness, it won't hurt anything and will eventually go away on its own.


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## barbaraanne (Mar 4, 2013)

JDM said:


> Welcome aboard!
> 
> You are on the right track.
> 
> ...


Thank you all so much, and for all the specifics, especially the explanation that the super high ammonia will inhibit the nitrite eating bacteria from growing....I was wondering if that could be true. Also I will get Prime to use instead of Ammo Lock, and stop using all the rest of the stuff. How my guppies are all still doing okay is a mystery to me, but I am thankful that they don't seem in bad condition. I do have to keep feeding the babies I believe, I don't think I can skip a day for them, can I? 

And I guess I will have to get new hoods with plant friendly lights--I am assuming florescent ones that you describe? I just have the old incandescent ones now. At this point I wish I had just bought a 20 gallon with the right hood from the beginning! I think I have spent $80 on chemicals, that could have gone towards a bigger tank....sigh. At this point would starting over with one twenty gallon instead of two 10 gallons (since the babies seem to coexist okay with the bigger fish, hiding in the plants) be a decent idea, or should I stick with the 2 10 gallons, get different hoods and lights, and try to ride out this huge ammonia spike?

Thoughts? Thanks so much everyone!!!

barb


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

barbaraanne said:


> Thank you all so much, and for all the specifics, especially the explanation that the super high ammonia will inhibit the nitrite eating bacteria from growing....I was wondering if that could be true. Also I will get Prime to use instead of Ammo Lock, and stop using all the rest of the stuff. How my guppies are all still doing okay is a mystery to me, but I am thankful that they don't seem in bad condition. I do have to keep feeding the babies I believe, I don't think I can skip a day for them, can I?
> 
> And I guess I will have to get new hoods with plant friendly lights--I am assuming florescent ones that you describe? I just have the old incandescent ones now. At this point I wish I had just bought a 20 gallon with the right hood from the beginning! I think I have spent $80 on chemicals, that could have gone towards a bigger tank....sigh. At this point would starting over with one twenty gallon instead of two 10 gallons (since the babies seem to coexist okay with the bigger fish, hiding in the plants) be a decent idea, or should I stick with the 2 10 gallons, get different hoods and lights, and try to ride out this huge ammonia spike?
> 
> ...


On the light, if you have an incandescent hood (one with screw-in bulbs) keep it. Get two 10w "Daylight" CFL bulbs. I use GE Daylight, with a 6500K rating. My plant growth is superb in this tank (a 20g) with no algae issues.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

I think that you do need to keep feeding the little ones, they don't have the stores built in yet to survive too long between feedings 

You could try the compact fluorescents for plants in those and keep going as you are, i would probably choose to do that if it were me. If you decide to upgrade the tank I'd suggest an LED light system and use a glass top rather than a classic hood. The LED come in plant and non-plant versions just like the tubes. 

I think that buying the largest tank that you can afford is the best course. The larger water volume is just easier to work with, more stable and allows for better numbers of fish. I started with my daughter wanting a 5 gallon and we ended up with a 37 gallon. We should have gone up one more size but that is another story.

Having said that, two tanks do let you have two varieties that might not otherwise be keep able in a single larger tank.

Cost considerations include right sized filters, new lighting (possibly plant friendly), adequate heater. 

If you were starting from scratch I'd suggest, and many others here would as well, to go with a planted tank... That $80 in chemicals would have gone a very long way in plants. Enough right from the start avoids the whole cycle. Tank + substrate + water + heater, light and filter then add fish. I don't have chlorinated water but I bought a small bottle of prime specifically in case of a spike. That has been my only chemical purchase, other than fertilizer. I haven't opened it yet.

Jeff.


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## barbaraanne (Mar 4, 2013)

I do have planted tanks, each with three-four plants, including Amazon swords and arrowheads, and some kind of bunch plants that are really fluffy and grow like crazy. I had java moss, but something about adding the bottled bacteria did them in, or caused them to go grey and icky looking, so I took them out. I'll get the light bulbs that were recommended, that's sure cheaper than a new hood and stick with the two tanks for now, I guess. 

As for all the babies...the LFS said they would take them when they are adults, but why I am raising guppies for the LFS? I love watching the babies grow. I bet I will end up buying a third tank because I feel bad parting with them, much to my husband's chagrin. Although some are certainly turning out prettier than others....what would the LFS do with not-so-striking guppies? I think they'd end up food for bigger guys.

If I wanted to stop having babies, could I just have a tank of male guppies? I know that isn't optimal, but I don't want to have to keep worrying about what to do with grown up fry...?


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

Just don't buy live bearers... but that's a personal thing. You could go with all male guppies but I don't know much about live bearers at all... maybe you can't.

Yah, it sounds like you might end up with another tank.:roll:

Jeff.


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

barbaraanne said:


> I do have planted tanks, each with three-four plants, including Amazon swords and arrowheads, and some kind of bunch plants that are really fluffy and grow like crazy. I had java moss, but something about adding the bottled bacteria did them in, or caused them to go grey and icky looking, so I took them out. I'll get the light bulbs that were recommended, that's sure cheaper than a new hood and stick with the two tanks for now, I guess.
> 
> As for all the babies...the LFS said they would take them when they are adults, but why I am raising guppies for the LFS? I love watching the babies grow. I bet I will end up buying a third tank because I feel bad parting with them, much to my husband's chagrin. Although some are certainly turning out prettier than others....what would the LFS do with not-so-striking guppies? I think they'd end up food for bigger guys.
> 
> If I wanted to stop having babies, could I just have a tank of male guppies? I know that isn't optimal, but I don't want to have to keep worrying about what to do with grown up fry...?



If you do decide that you don't want to raise fry any more doing a tank with just males will work out fine


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

You might be able to work out a deal with the LFS to get credit for the guppies you bring in. You could get free plants/supplies.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

barbaraanne said:


> As for all the babies...the LFS said they would take them when they are adults, but why I am raising guppies for the LFS? I love watching the babies grow. I bet I will end up buying a third tank because I feel bad parting with them, much to my husband's chagrin. Although some are certainly turning out prettier than others....what would the LFS do with not-so-striking guppies? I think they'd end up food for bigger guys.
> 
> If I wanted to stop having babies, could I just have a tank of male guppies? I know that isn't optimal, but I don't want to have to keep worrying about what to do with grown up fry...?


Unless the store intends selling the guppy fry as feeder fish, I suspect they will soon not be interested in more. A female livebearer will deliver a sizeable brood regularly for years. Have a read of ouor profile, click Guppy. There is also a bit more data in the Livebearer introduction in the profiles.


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## barbaraanne (Mar 4, 2013)

Byron said:


> Unless the store intends selling the guppy fry as feeder fish, I suspect they will soon not be interested in more. A female livebearer will deliver a sizeable brood regularly for years. Have a read of ouor profile, click Guppy. There is also a bit more data in the Livebearer introduction in the profiles.


Thanks all for the help with guppies, but because my son brought them home, I got into them and really love them, but I understand what you are saying about the LFS and them probably not really wanting my future fish. I will eventually move to a different collection, I am sure.

However, I am still struggling with both tanks with the ammonia issue, which is not disappearing in any way. Today I bought Prime to use with the water changes and even more plants, which is the most these 10 gallon tanks can take. I am tempted to completely empty the tanks, or change out 95-100% of the water to get the ammonia levels down to 1.0 or lower. I really think I will have to do that. The 30% each day is not doing it. Should I take all fish, plants, decorations out of each tank, change out the water completely, but not rinse the gravel or filter media, and just add Prime? (By the way, my tap water is 0 for ammonia.) Do I need to rinse out the filter boxes somehow, as well? I can rinse the media in the tank water I take out, and even the gravel.

Help, please!

Also the store keeps saying to add bacteria products, can they hurt?

thank you!


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

barbaraanne said:


> However, I am still struggling with both tanks with the ammonia issue, which is not disappearing in any way. Today I bought Prime to use with the water changes and even more plants, which is the most these 10 gallon tanks can take. I am tempted to completely empty the tanks, or change out 95-100% of the water to get the ammonia levels down to 1.0 or lower. I really think I will have to do that. The 30% each day is not doing it. Should I take all fish, plants, decorations out of each tank, change out the water completely, but not rinse the gravel or filter media, and just add Prime? (By the way, my tap water is 0 for ammonia.) Do I need to rinse out the filter boxes somehow, as well? I can rinse the media in the tank water I take out, and even the gravel.
> !


75% water changes are about as much as you need to do if you have added as many plants as you say. No sense in making more work than you already have. That let's you leave fish and plants in place during the process.... although if you want to go through such a large change, it won't hurt. Rinsing everything as you suggest is the recommended way, using old tank water or even treated (de-chlorinated) water.

Adding any products other than prime at this point is pointless. Your plants may be enough to consume all the ammonia as it is produced and your problem will most likely clear up right away, particularly if you go with a 100% water change. That's how I started, fresh water, lots of plants and add the fish. Even with a small amount of ammonia, say the 1ppm, the plants would soak that up in short order. 

What plants did you get? 

Jeff.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I am a bit puzzled, having read this thread through. I do not understand ammonia at 8 ppm with all these plants. Bacterial supplements can do no harm, but they should not be necessary with plants.

While it is true that changing the filter media would have removed the nitrifying bacteria in the filter, there are bacteria elsewhere in the tank, not to mention the live plants using ammonia/ammonium.

Maybe we are not clear...just how many fish are in the 10g tank? Assuming this is the problem tank.


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## barbaraanne (Mar 4, 2013)

Byron said:


> I am a bit puzzled, having read this thread through. I do not understand ammonia at 8 ppm with all these plants. Bacterial supplements can do no harm, but they should not be necessary with plants.
> 
> While it is true that changing the filter media would have removed the nitrifying bacteria in the filter, there are bacteria elsewhere in the tank, not to mention the live plants using ammonia/ammonium.
> 
> Maybe we are not clear...just how many fish are in the 10g tank? Assuming this is the problem tank.


Both tanks are problem tanks, neither one has ammonia levels below 8, and actually they are probably higher than that, it's off the charts.

First ten gallon tank has 6 adult guppies, roughly 15 baby guppies of varying sizes, most are still very little.

Second ten gallon tank has 6 adult guppies, 2 baby guppies of very small size. This tank used to have 10 adults, but 2 died and I moved 2 to the other tank.

For the first month I didn't test the water, as the fish all seemed to be fine and the store told me I didn't need to---big mistake, I know. During the first month I didn't really suck out the gravel, I didn't know how, I just ran the cleaner over the top of the gravel. I was probably feeding too much at first too. 

The first time I checked for ammonia was after I changed out the filter media and had finally decided I needed to buy dropper test kits. It showed .5 at first, then after a couple of days and a BIG gravel cleaning where I pushed all the gravel around like a novice and made stuff come up into the water, it ran up to 4.0, and then within a couple of days, over 8. And this is doing 30-60% gravel changes each day since the ammonia spike. It's like the bacteria product I was adding was made up of ammonia or something...API Quick Start.

Tonight I just changed out 50-60% of the water in the tank #1 with most of the babies. I carefully cleaned the gravel, after removing the plants and ornaments, most of which are potted, now that the LFS finally showed me how to do it correctly, but not all that much stuff was in the gravel at this point. I rinsed the media in the tank water. Then I retested the ammonia, and it was still 8.0! It must have been 16.0 before that, but I am still at a loss. This test works correctly, and tests 0 for our tap water.

As for the types of plants, three potted plants per tank--two swords and one arrowhead, or that's what I was told. Also two bunch plants per tank, not sure of the name, they are "fluffy," spread out in each tank, and one other "bunch" plant. No floating plants. I'm sorry I am not knowing the names of these plants yet. 

I haven't changed Tank #2 today yet, the one with the six adult guppies. Waiting for advice....

Thanks so much, I know this seems to be impossible, but I am looking at the test tube and shaking my head.

Also, a handful of tiny snails have grown in each tank, having hitched a ride in on a plant.


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

Two options.

If you want to test the test, cut the tank water agian witha 50% change. Retest. keep changing 50% until you get into measureable and much lower levels.

Or

Just go big and change 80% or more right off. I did that once for a nitrite spike... long story. The levels weren't as high as you are seeing but it made me feel better starting with a sunddenly way lower level.

Something does sound off with the amount of ammonia that you seem to be seeing. Any chance the testing is off... number of drops, 5ml of water, cleaning and drying the tubes between tests?

Jeff.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Yes, this is just not making sense. Sorry we keep asking questions, but we have no other way to pin this down.

Exactly what additives/substances are you adding, and how much and how often? Water conditioner, etc.


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## barbaraanne (Mar 4, 2013)

Before I bought the ammonia test kit, I wasn't adding anything but declorinator (API Stress Coat), and I occasionally added API Stress Zyme when I did a weekly water change.

Then I added more fish, stupidly, I know, until I had one tank fully stocked (10 guppies + a couple of plants) and had set up the other tank for mommas to have their babies in, with a couple of plants as well. Had several groups of three or four babies in that tank over a period of a few weeks.

After six weeks and what had been happy fish, I changed the filter media and bought a ammonia test kit. It showed mildly high ammonia at .5. Then after stirring up all my gravel in a cleaning that didn't go well, I ended up with ammonia at 4.0, then to 8.0 after a couple of days and a couple of 25% water changes. I added Ammo Lock at full strength during the water changes, on days 1,2, 4, and 6 and 8. (Today is day 10) I also began to add bacteria in the form of API Quick Start, at full strength with each water change, and I used Accu Clear two different times in each tank after water changes.

Tonight I changed 50% of the water in tank #2, added Prime at about 3 ml for my tank, which is higher than the basic dose of 1 ml, but I have such high ammonia, it says you can add up to 5 ml for my tank. I also added Quick Start (bacteria) one more time to that tank. Then the ammonia was still at 7 or 8, when it was perhaps twice that before, I don't know, the test doesn't go that high. 

I haven't done anything tonight to tank #1 yet.

Does this help you?


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

I'm also really puzzled. I think you're a bit overstocked but nothing crazy. I'm thinking of just doing a massive huge water change, like 90%, as low as you can get with the fish still being in. Also, you don't need to remove the decorations/plants when you gravel vac, the bacteria lives on the decorations and the plants can get hurt by drying out. Just vac around them. Do you have the proper lights for plants? (I can't remember, I might have asked this, sorry, it's late).

When you tested the tap water, did you shake the water before testing? Shake it for like 30 seconds vigorously to ensure proper test results.


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## barbaraanne (Mar 4, 2013)

Yes, I have been doing the tests correctly, correct ml, drops, shaking. 

Lastly tonight I did a complete 100% water change in tank #1, to see what happened and because I am practically losing my mind about this ammonia. I took the six fish out first, along with the ornaments and plants. I kept the things from the tank in a large bowl, and they didn't dry out. The fish went in a separate container with some tank water. I vacuumed the gravel, then swished it around in the remaining water before dumping all the water, but not the gravel. I didn't use clorinated water on anything, and quickly refilled it with water treated with Prime.

I replaced the plants and the fish, and added back the 1 tablespoon of salt that guppies like, and I did replace one of the two filter pads in the tank because it looked so brown and gross I thought it might be a source of ammonia, somehow. I did keep the other filter pad in the second filter and didn't touch it.

At this point I worried about there not being enough good bacteria and added a full dose of API Quick Start bacteria. I wasn't going to, but I did, can't remove it now.

Then I did an ammonia test. It read .5. Not sure why it wasn't 0, but it's a heck of a lot better than over 8! Is it possible that the Quick Start contains some ammonia as a 'start' for the backteria????? 

I think as an experiment I will also empty the second tank tomorrow, not add the Quick Start and measure the ammonia after the water change. If it is 0, then I can't help but to think it is coming from the Quick Start, although maybe I am crazy.

Do you all think I am crazy?? HA!:roll: I swear, I was happier before I bought the test kits and was ignorant! :lol:


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

That's the first that you mention salt. Guppies might be said to "like it" by some but they are listed as being able to "tolerate" it and "are best kept in freshwater", a far cry from liking it. 1 tablespoon is a lot of salt. Someone else can comment on how that might affect your tanks, I don't know. 

The prime breaks the chloramine into ammonia and chlorine so it is normal that treated water will result in a small level of ammonia. 

Jeff.


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## barbaraanne (Mar 4, 2013)

JDM said:


> That's the first that you mention salt. Guppies might be said to "like it" by some but they are listed as being able to "tolerate" it and "are best kept in freshwater", a far cry from liking it. 1 tablespoon is a lot of salt. Someone else can comment on how that might affect your tanks, I don't know.
> 
> The prime breaks the chloramine into ammonia and chlorine so it is normal that treated water will result in a small level of ammonia.
> 
> Jeff.


Yes, I forgot to mention that one of the fish stores recommended salt for the guppies from the beginning. The bag of aquarium salt says to use 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons for freshwater fish, so that is what I put in. Somewhere about guppies I read that they like up to 2 tablespoons per 10 gallons actually....they are still freshwater fish, but salt is said to help stressed fish who like somewhat brackish water--guppies. Am I wrong about this??

This morning the tank I emptied and refilled is doing great. All fish slept lower down in the tank, near the bottom, which is normal, I believe. When the ammonia was high, they were up at the top of the tank at night.

Today I am set to empty tank #2, but this is my tank of my best six fish and what now seems like even more babies than before....geez, there must be a total of nearly 20 now. I will have to try to net them all and remove them before emptying that tank and refilling it. Does anyone think that completely draining this tank is too drastic a measure before I do it? This tank #2 is showing normal levels of nitrite and nitrate in it now, but the ammonia is still off the charts, and now and then one or two of the fish hang around near the top, not moving around a whole lot, but not near death, either.

I know you all must think I am pretty boring just doing guppies, but I really think they are very active and pretty fish, and watching the males court the females, shimmying their big tails in front of them, is really an entertaining sight!

I hope I can get these tanks back in order! Please volunteer any further ideas or instructions you might have, I really appreciate all the input. I feel like I jumped into what I thought was a not too complicated hobby here, but boy was I wrong about that! I like Byron's message at the bottom of his page about being an aquarist...how true!


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## JDM (Dec 9, 2012)

Big change in #2 can't hurt. 

Keep in mind that nitrites are harmful to fish just as ammonia is so the same attention to keeping them as close to zero should be given. Prime will render these non-toxic for a day or two as well but you will rely on the bacteria cycle to consume them... plants won't look after this as much as they will for ammonia.

Once things are settled down, you should aim for a maximum 10ppm for nitrates and this is mainly managed through water changes... although I am having good luck with plants to some degree.

I don't think you should add the salt BUT I will defer that opinion to someone who perhaps has experience with guppies. You do want hard water though, you are around 8-9dGH. Perhaps if it isn't high enough salt is recommended if you don't keep other fish with them.

Jeff.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

The problem with additives to the water is that many will interact with others in ways that we can't always understand, not being chemists. The less added, the better.

You have live plants, including fast growing ones (floating) so ammonia should never be an issue. Thus, something is causing it.

Bacterial supplements will increase ammonia, so I would stop with those. While salt should not cause ammonia, as far as I know, it is another additive that is not necessary so stop using it. I have an article in the Freshwater Articles section that explains the problems caused by salt with all freshwater fish. While livebearers are better able to cope with it, they don't need it.

Add only the conditioner at each water change, and only sufficient for the volume of water changed (I would do half the tank). Remember that conditioners and additives that detoxify ammonia do so by changing it to ammonium which will still show in "ammonia" tests but be harmless.

Let us know what results from the above. And monitor the fish; even if ammonia shows in tests, use the fish as the guide. If they are behaving normally, don't worry about it.

Byron.


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## barbaraanne (Mar 4, 2013)

*Things improving*

Quick update...

I did an 75% change in tank #2, didn't want to try to net all the fry, so couldn't do a 100% change like I did in tank #1. Ammonia levels in tank #2 now below 2.0. In tank #1 they are still at .5. At least I am getting down to some numbers that make sense. For the tank with the 2.0 level, I will do another 60% water change tomorrow, hoping to get below 1.0 as well. Am just adding Prime now instead of the API water conditioners.

All fish are doing well...amazingly. If I can get a picture of one of my male guppies I will post it. He's extremely striking...navy blue metallic body with huge reddish orange tail with black mosiac design highlighted by yellow. 

Thanks for all the help! And if someone could answer the question about guppies needing some aquarium salt in the water, and how much, that would be greatly appreciated!


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## barbaraanne (Mar 4, 2013)

Byron said:


> The problem with additives to the water is that many will interact with others in ways that we can't always understand, not being chemists. The less added, the better.
> 
> You have live plants, including fast growing ones (floating) so ammonia should never be an issue. Thus, something is causing it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info on the bacterial supplements increasing ammonia--now I know. Also, thanks for the info on the salt...I guess I was misinformed. As far as the fish, they seem to all be doing very well now...no signs of stress, other than adjusting to the water going up and down in their tanks! I will keep monitoring the chemistry levels, doing partial water changes with just the Prime, and will give an update in a day or two.

Thanks all!


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## barbaraanne (Mar 4, 2013)

*Update*

Just a quick update to thank everyone who was helping me...

Both of my guppy tanks are now doing well. Ammonia levels are 0 in one tank, .25 in the other (which I will do a small water change in today), and there are low levels of nitrates showing up in both tanks, so it appears that have finally cycled through, I hope. I have been monitoring the nitrites and nitrates and will do more large water changes if the levels get too high. Nitrates are showing to be at 5, one tank has nitrites showing at .5 - 1.

I have stopped with the salt and also the bacteria in a bottle. I am convinced now that my adding that bacteria repeatedly during the ammonia spike was what kept making the ammonia go up, even after water changes, because I'd add it at every water change. 

My plants are doing great. Water is crystal clear, fish are active and fine. Now I just have to figure out what to do with all the babies and the female guppies! I don't want them to keep reproducing. I will see if the LFS will help me out somehow with taking them....or else I will have to keep adding tanks, and I'm not going to do that.

Thanks so much all.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

barbaraanne said:


> Just a quick update to thank everyone who was helping me...
> 
> Both of my guppy tanks are now doing well. Ammonia levels are 0 in one tank, .25 in the other (which I will do a small water change in today), and there are low levels of nitrates showing up in both tanks, so it appears that have finally cycled through, I hope. I have been monitoring the nitrites and nitrates and will do more large water changes if the levels get too high. Nitrates are showing to be at 5, one tank has nitrites showing at .5 - 1.
> 
> ...


Good to hear this.:greenyay:


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

Good to hear that things are coming along on your tanks :-D Now to get some of those babies homes ;-)


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## barbaraanne (Mar 4, 2013)

BarbH said:


> Good to hear that things are coming along on your tanks :-D Now to get some of those babies homes ;-)


YES, that is a big concern of mine. My LFS said they would take them, although maybe when the time comes, the will say no, and perhaps some would end up being food for larger fish there...but I cannot keep them in my 2 10 gallon tanks without destroying my water chemistry and ruining life for the 13 adult fish I have. Right now the babies are mostly all still quite little, but I have four that are approaching 1/2 inch and are probably adding to the ammonia of the tank...those I am hoping to find home for first.

If anyone reading these posts is looking for some free baby guppies in Central New York, Utica/Frankfort area, please post here! I'd love to hear from you. I will post this on another board here, any suggestions as to where, being I am a new user?? Is there such a board here??

Thank you so much!


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

barbaraanne said:


> YES, that is a big concern of mine. My LFS said they would take them, although maybe when the time comes, the will say no, and perhaps some would end up being food for larger fish there...but I cannot keep them in my 2 10 gallon tanks without destroying my water chemistry and ruining life for the 13 adult fish I have. Right now the babies are mostly all still quite little, but I have four that are approaching 1/2 inch and are probably adding to the ammonia of the tank...those I am hoping to find home for first.
> 
> If anyone reading these posts is looking for some free baby guppies in Central New York, Utica/Frankfort area, please post here! I'd love to hear from you. I will post this on another board here, any suggestions as to where, being I am a new user?? Is there such a board here??
> 
> Thank you so much!



Yes the aquarium classified section located in the aquarium resources section a little further down on the main page, I would just make sure to note that they are for local pickup if you don't want to mess with shipping


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## barbaraanne (Mar 4, 2013)

BarbH said:


> Yes the aquarium classified section located in the aquarium resources section a little further down on the main page, I would just make sure to note that they are for local pickup if you don't want to mess with shipping


Thanks for your help...I am still finding my way around here and I appreciate your input!


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