# Help! My African Dwarf Frog & Oto are in a Deathlock!



## Aoibhell (Jul 27, 2012)

(See pics below)

They both seem to be alive.. I suspect that the oto has sucked onto the frog's mouth- either to save himself from being eaten or to try to take the frog out. I can't separate them. I've tried squirting water onto the frog's face, taking them out for a minute to see if the oto would release, and holding them under the filter outflow to try to agitate them enough to release them. No luck. Currently, I have the light out and am leaving them be, but I really want to save at least one of them.

Please help!


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

OH MY GOODNESS!!!







I posted your link onto the ADF thread in the hopes someone there can help. . . I don't know _WHAT_ to tell you. . . what a disaster!
Have you tried feeding the Otto's fave food?


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## Aoibhell (Jul 27, 2012)

I tried giving them bloodworms but neither budged. I suspect the oto is dead.


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## Aoibhell (Jul 27, 2012)

Chesherca said:


> OH MY GOODNESS!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Forgive my newbness, but where is the ADF thread?


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Posted there already, nobody from there but me is on, and I have no idea what to tell you. . . I also posted on another forum I belong to, haven't heard back yet...

and it's here. . . 
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/betta-fish-compatibility/guide-proper-adf-care-84033/


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Gah! If the otto is dead. . . that's even WORSE! I really don't know ANYTHING about Ottos. . . I suppose he'll lose his suction eventually? This really is a terrible predicament! Leaving the lights off is the only thing I can come up with, too - but if the Otto is dead, there isn't much of a chance he'll calm down and release suction. The problem isn't with the FROG. The poor little guy just prolly accidentally chomped him thinking he was food. . . mine accidentally chomp each-other all the time, and just release. I'm thinking you were right, the otto instinctively 'fought back' and now is stuck. . . 

If he's dead, I imagine he *must* lose suction at some point? Just make sure the frog stays near the surface so he can breathe. . .


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## Snappyarcher (Aug 6, 2011)

Just gently squeeze the otto form its middle.... that should make it release.


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## Varkolak (Jun 9, 2012)

Pin the frogs jaw like its a catfish and just pull the oto out


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## Romad (Jun 28, 2009)

Yikes!! :shock: I'd try to gently remove the Oto at this point. Poor lil guy.


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## Aoibhell (Jul 27, 2012)

UPDATE:

Both the oto and the frog are very much alive.. I think the frog is just tired of fighting. I tried holding them upside down, with the oto halfway out of the water to try to coax the oto, but no luck. So now i'm working with 2 live guys.

If I squeeze the oto, will it kill him? 

I thought maybe if I dropped them in a cup of cold water, it might shock them and oto might let go... what do you think?


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Snappy wouldn't have told you to do it if it would cause harm. He knows what he's talking about. Try it, be gentle and see... Glad they're both alive still...


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## Snappyarcher (Aug 6, 2011)

Speed is important here or you will lose the frog... Just gently squeeze the otto.... Now!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Aoibhell (Jul 27, 2012)

Snappyarcher said:


> Just gently squeeze the otto form its middle.... that should make it release.


I squeezed him just below his pectoral fins, but nothing. I tried squeezing him at his back, above his fins, but no luck. I'm afraid that if I squeeze any tighter, I'll crush him.

Is the cold water thing a bad idea?


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Any word over there? I wish there was something more we could tell you. . . this is kind of unheard of, I think :/

ETA, I don't know... a sudden temperature change COULD kill them, too!


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## Aoibhell (Jul 27, 2012)

Nothing's changed. They are still attached and alive. I turned the light on to see what's going on (and because there are other fish and plants to consider) and the frog was still struggling to get away. It's such a freak thing.

My husband is going to try to push the oto in and then out to try to unhook him when he gets home tonight. He's more worried about losing the frog over the fish. I don't want to have to choose because I don't think either was the clear aggressor. 

Thanks for following up with me. If you think of anything else, please let me know. I will update with the end result.


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## fish monger (Dec 29, 2011)

Well, this is totally weird. Out of desperation, I'd put them on a plate and see if one of them gives up. You basically have nothing to lose. It has to be an uncomfortable situation for one or both of them before something will give.


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## Aoibhell (Jul 27, 2012)

fish monger said:


> Well, this is totally weird. Out of desperation, I'd put them on a plate and see if one of them gives up. You basically have nothing to lose. It has to be an uncomfortable situation for one or both of them before something will give.


I'm kind of just waiting for one of them to give up in the tank. Maybe we'll try the plate thing if we can't get him unhooked.


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## Aoibhell (Jul 27, 2012)

Update: My husband tried unhooking them by pushing the oto in and lifting out, but no luck. He put them in an empty bowl for a good 10 minutes, hoping one of them would give up, but nothing happened, except that the frog jumped out and onto the floor. They flopped around a little bit, then he put them back in the tank. 

The fish. is still. alive. I can't believe these two are holding on like this. Unreal. We don't know what else to try. :-(


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## fish monger (Dec 29, 2011)

The frog has to breath air from the surface. Can't believe it can with a mouthful of fish. Let me check with someone and get back to you. Crazy.


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## Aoibhell (Jul 27, 2012)

fish monger said:


> The frog has to breath air from the surface. Can't believe it can with a mouthful of fish. Let me check with someone and get back to you. Crazy.


He's been breathing at the surface all day- the oto just goes for the ride. I guess he's breathing through nostrils?


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

This is the most insane thing I've ever heard of! Hopefully FishMonger comes up with something!


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## Aoibhell (Jul 27, 2012)

I think the frog might be dead. I've made that wrong assumption many times today already, but he hasn't come up for air in awhile.. not sure how often they require air..


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

In THIS situation, I don't know, but they can stay down normally for 3 hours +
He's been under a LOT of stress, though - and probably pain, so. . . I have no idea.


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## fish monger (Dec 29, 2011)

I have sent a private message to a person who breeds ADFs on another site.


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

*crosses fingers for an easy solution*

I think we NEED people who know more about ottos. . . Where is BYRON!!?


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Have you tried squeezing the frog on either side of it's mouth to open it?
Otherwise I'd find something small and not sharp to pry the frogs mouth open.. Try and see if one person can keep the frogs mouth open while another takes something and pushes the oto out... Like a toothpick kind of thing but not sharp in any way.. If you have some nail cleaning metal tools, usually the ends of them are smooth and round.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Aoibhell (Jul 27, 2012)

Olympia said:


> Have you tried squeezing the frog on either side of it's mouth to open it?
> Otherwise I'd find something small and not sharp to pry the frogs mouth open.. Try and see if one person can keep the frogs mouth open while another takes something and pushes the oto out... Like a toothpick kind of thing but not sharp in any way.. If you have some nail cleaning metal tools, usually the ends of them are smooth and round.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The problem with that is that we think the otto is hooked onto the inside of the frog's mouth, so it wouldn't matter how much wider we could get the frog's mouth open.

Uptdate: Frog & fish are still quite alive.


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Yes. . . but Olympia is right, MAYBE if you could get something in to POKE at the otto with (without HURTING either of them) he might just. . . let go?

At least they're both alive. My goodness!


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Well my thought was more try and pry under the Otos mouth, even if a tiny air pocket gets through the suction would be lost immediately.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fish monger (Dec 29, 2011)

Aoibhell said:


> I think the frog might be dead. I've made that wrong assumption many times today already, but he hasn't come up for air in awhile.. not sure how often they require air..


My contact said that they had already sent you a private message. Sounds like your husband already tried the technique suggested. I would never have imagined that something like this would happen (except for in my household). It looks like neither the Oto nor the ADF have any control of the situation at this point. Wait and see is all you can do. Sorry you have to go through this with our "relaxing" hobby.


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## Aoibhell (Jul 27, 2012)

Olympia said:


> Well my thought was more try and pry under the Otos mouth, even if a tiny air pocket gets through the suction would be lost immediately.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My husband tried doing that by cutting up a straw like a spatula and slipping it in there but he said nothing happened. He may not have had it in the right place, though.


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## Aoibhell (Jul 27, 2012)

Olympia said:


> Well my thought was more try and pry under the Otos mouth, even if a tiny air pocket gets through the suction would be lost immediately.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




Outcome: 

My husband tried breaking the suction with a spatula fashioned from a straw again. He finally broke them free. Otto is dead  The frog is alive but his mouth is gaping open. Not sure if it was because it's just been open for so long or if he broke something. 

He appears to be conserving energy after all of that (it's been at least 13 hours). I put blood worms in there but I doubt he'll be able to eat right now. There is a red dot in his mouth.. not sure how serious the injury is. He better make it, though, after everything he's been through.

Thank you to everyone for their advice and suggestions.. better one than none. I'll update in the morning.


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

OH THANK GOD!!! I'm really sorry you lost the Otto, but I'm so happy you've finally gotten the frog free! 

My advice from here is to keep the tank lights off and the tank calm tomorrow. Your other fish and plants will be FINE with a day or two of lights off, and it can make the difference in the frog's life. Keep a close eye out for any infections and such to develop - you may want to go ahead and treat him in a QT tank with a small amount of salt as a preventative measure. Poor little thing - I hope he pulls through. What an insane day!


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

The frog is cold blooded, his jaw being that way for so long it may be temporarily stuck, but it should fix itself eventually. They are slower animals than we. 
Glad I could help. :-D
Sorry about the fish.. what a horrible way to go. At least one made it out of this though.


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## JennybugJennifer (Apr 16, 2012)

Wow!!! Crazy story!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Snappyarcher (Aug 6, 2011)

That's a very very unusual story and one I'm sorry you had to go through.... I'm sorry it worked out the way it did and agree with Cheshi entirely!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Aoibhell (Jul 27, 2012)

Yes, it was sad to lose the oto and the will that he had, but I'm really glad the frog made it through. He seems to be doing ok this morning. His mouth is still open but not as much as it was last night. 

I'm not sure if he was able to eat yet, this morning. I gave him bloodworms and left him alone. 

I willl definitely be sticking around on here, though... of the 6 forums I joined for advice on this fiasco, you all were the most concerned and most helpful. Made it easy to pick the community I would stay with. Thanks again.


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Thank goodness he made it through the night! I'm sure he'll be okay now. . . these little tiny frogs are really AMAZING in terms of healing, recovery, and survival! Please keep us posted on his condition - you're doing great, just leave him alone and in the dark and let nature do the rest. . . Does he have a name? I think he needs one! Something brave and tenacious!


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## djembekah (Feb 13, 2012)

oh wow this is super strange, and extra intriguing. Sorry to hear about the oto, but glad the froggy pulled through!


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## Aoibhell (Jul 27, 2012)

Chesherca said:


> Does he have a name? I think he needs one! Something brave and tenacious!


His name is Fred... lol. Oto's name (RIP) was Roland Worthington the First (don't ask me how we came up with these names... haha). He's actually a new addition to our tank, though.. I think we will have to rethink his name. He's definitely earned something distinguishing.


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## fish monger (Dec 29, 2011)

Aoibhell said:


> His name is Fred... lol. Oto's name (RIP) was Roland Worthington the First (don't ask me how we came up with these names... haha). He's actually a new addition to our tank, though.. I think we will have to rethink his name. He's definitely earned something distinguishing.


Patrick Henry..."as for me, give me liberty or give me death." Or Nathan Hale..."my one regret is that I have only one life to give to my country (aquarium)."


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Yea, what if the oto was some sort of evil mastermind and the frog just did a huge service to the tank?
:shock:


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## fish monger (Dec 29, 2011)

Olympia said:


> Yea, what if the oto was some sort of evil mastermind and the frog just did a huge service to the tank?
> :shock:


Dr Noto ?


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## Pearl2011 (May 21, 2012)

Dr Noto? That is so cheesy! Love it, though


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## Greylady (Jul 15, 2012)

Sorry about Oto. I think you should rename Fred to Jaws.


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## Aoibhell (Jul 27, 2012)

Olympia said:


> Yea, what if the oto was some sort of evil mastermind and the frog just did a huge service to the tank?
> :shock:


That's freaking hysterical. I will choose to believe this. It will help me to cope with the loss... lol


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## Pearl2011 (May 21, 2012)

Aoibhell said:


> That's freaking hysterical. I will choose to believe this. It will help me to cope with the loss... lol


I know what you mean. Think of something to make it seem less sad. Or just have your freind come over and spazz at that fish for being a . . . you get the picture.


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Man... I just knew this thread was going to turn silly!

Seriously though, how's the froggy doing today?


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## Aoibhell (Jul 27, 2012)

He seems to be doing just fine. His mouth isn't quite closed yet, but it's only open a little bit. We've decided to call him Tenacious Fred the Undead...


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

I LOVE his newly expanded name, and am SO happy to hear that he's doing better!!! Is he eating and behaving normally? Coloration good? Any signs of redness/swelling/infection?

Be on the lookout for a possible damage shed... the issue was on the inside of his mouth, so you may not see one, but he also spent some time out of the water and hopping onto the floor, so he may need to refresh. Just a warning, as when they do a forced shed, it tends to be a bit more . . . dramatic . . . than when they shed skin that is already due to come off - and that's violent enough! 

Sounds like he's recovering perfectly, I'm so happy! I'd continue to keep things as stress-free as possible for a few more days - just to be safe


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## Aoibhell (Jul 27, 2012)

There doesn't appear to be any infections or signs of sickness. His mouth is closed enough that I can't see inside, so I assume he's ok in that department, as well. His color looks good and he seems like he's back to his old self again. I haven't seen him eat, but he always eats on the sly, so that's not unusual.

I'll keep an eye out for his shedding.


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Sounds good, I'm so glad he's doing well! Keep us posted, please. What a crazy thing. . .


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Just wondering how Tenacious Fred is holding up after his day-long battle? I hope he's 100% recovered and all is well in frogland!


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## Aoibhell (Jul 27, 2012)

Chesherca said:


> Just wondering how Tenacious Fred is holding up after his day-long battle? I hope he's 100% recovered and all is well in frogland!


Thanks for asking! He is doing really well  Just trying to fatten him up a bit, but he's great. He might be getting some buddies soon, too...


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Oooh YAY! Glad to hear all is well over there!


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