# Warpig's 180 FOWLR Build



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

I should have started this thread a while ago. I have been working on this build for about 6 weeks so I'm going to have to post allot here to bring this thread to where I am at. 

Back in the last week of September after many months of research and looking I found a deal on a used tank setup i couldn't pass up. I wanted to go with as big a tank as i could fit in my small space available. I originally planned to set up a tank in my office at work but plans to do that fell through so I modified the plan and decided i had a space at home I could put a 150+ gallon tank. After searching for a while I ran across a craigslist post that seemed too good to pass up on a used tank in my area. I decided I wanted to go with either a 180 or a 210 but was not set on either, it would be a matter of which I discovered first.

I found a local craigslist listing where someone local was selling their 180G reef tank. I went to look at the tank and was very happy with what I saw. The owner was looking to sell his 180G tank 72" x 24" x 25" and all his corals and livestock as a complete setup. He wanted $1000 a very fair price for what he was offering. I went and looked at the setup and talked with the owner. I'm a newb so admittedly don't know too much but had been doing research for the previous 8 months waiting for the right deal to come along. All of the fish appeared in good health and the setup was quite nice. There were also a good number of fish I had on my list of fish I'd like to have that were included as well as everything I would need to get going. i agreed I would buy the setup for $1000 and gave the owner a small deposit. A couple weeks later my uncle and I (my uncle having over 20yrs experience in saltwater fish) went to pick everything up and get me started.

So on a Saturday at the end of September we went and picked everything up. Here is the large list of what was included. The tank 180G 72 x 24 x 25 an acrylic sump 40 x 16 x 16. A Reeflow Super Dart pump that was recently new. Hamilton technology 4 bulb light system as well as a some coral lighting. A Red Sea's Berlin skimmer. Various power heads and a few extra pumps for various things. the setup also came with a reverse osmosis water filter system. Also included was ~100lbs of live sand and ~150 lbs of live rock. two heaters and a moonlighting system. There were a few other hardware items included a half bucket of Instant Ocean a couple 44G cans for chores and moving, etc. The list of fish include A Purple Tang, two Blue Regal Tangs, a Foxface a pair of Diamond Gobies, a Tomato Clown and various corals. I want my first tank to be a FOWLR setup so I offered all the corals to my uncle for helping me out. My uncle also has an established tank that all of it's fish were recently removed from. So we formed a plan that he would take the corals and the coral lighting for them and he would take care of my livestock while the move and re-setup was going on. As such on moving day the current owner broke everything down and we prepared the fish and corals for the move.

On our first trip we took all the fish and corals to my uncles tanks and get them acclimated and into their temporary home and then off to my place with misc. hardware. and the 44G cans full of water, live rock and live sand. We moved the cans into my place and set them up with a pump to circulate the water to help keep the rock and sand alive. The second trip we moved the tank and whatever hardware would not fit in the van on the first trip leaving only the previous owners DIY stand. I didn't have a stand so I wanted to take the stand too. The stand was in pretty bad shape and was very rickety after the trip to my place in the van. After the stand sat in my house for a couple days while I was getting ready for what was to come I decided I didn't like the stand and didn't trust it and would build a new one. So off I went to accomplish that. I ran across this thread
DIY aquarium stand lots of photos - first ever woodworking project - DIY Aquarium Projects - Aquatic Plant Central and decided this would be the general way I constructed my new stand. The following weekend I built my stand. I tore down the old stand and kept only the front cabinet surfaces as I figure they will screw into the front surface of my new stand and help with the water noise and keeping things looking a bit nicer. I started shooting video's then too to document a few things. here is a link to my you-tube channel for everyone interested to see my videos. YouTube - 00Warpig00's Channel 

Working on various odds and ends during the week after work like cleaning out the tank and replacing the bulkheads. I positioned the stand where I want it and had a couple friends help me put the tank on the new stand. I shimmed the tank and made sure everything was level. I also used some of this time to install my reverse osmosis water filter system. I took a sample of the water from the filter to the LFS and had them test it. The results were acceptable. Starting with decent water.  The following week I started to fill the tank with fresh water from the RO unit. It took almost three days to fill the tank 2/3rds with fresh RO water. I got the tank filled to that point. i was not sure how much water the rock and sand would displace so this was a good starting point. I mixed my first batch of salt water in the tank. I decided to mix it to a specific gravity of 1.022 to get me started. At this point I didn't have a water test kit but took a sample of saltwater to the LFS and was told everything looked great. I then transferred my live rock into the tank to let it brew in there while I continued working on things. I spent the next week working after work on the sump and setting my live rock up in the tank how I want it. Currently there is 132lbs of live rock in the tank with another ~40-50lbs in my uncle's tank that needs to come back here.

I moved the sump into the bottom of the stand. I decided to buy a couple of cheap vinyl shower curtain liners and put them in the bottom of the stand in a fashion that would catch any water in the event of a leak. A cheap method to help keep the place dry in event of some water escaping. I had saltwater in the tank for a little over a week at this point and only had my initial water test from the LFS of which I don't have any parameters to share but was told by the LFS that everything looked great as far as pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. I finally picked up my water test kit and tested the water after the rock had been in the tank by itself for a week and a half. The results were as follows. Specific gravity 1.022, pH 8.2, Ammonia 0 ppm, Nitrite 0 ppm and Nitrate 5-10ppm (I cannot tell the difference in colors on the API test kits orange bars on the card they look the same color to me).

I decided it was time to add the live sand to the tank. After adding the live sand the tank was cloudy for 2 days. When all the silt from the sand settled there was an ugly 1/8th inch thick layer of silt on everything. this may have been a mistake, but since the water test before adding the sand revealed some nitrate and the layer of ugly silt on everything I decided I was going to vacuum the silt layer off the sand and pull some of the larger top pieces of rock out of the tank and bathe the silt off in a 5 gallon bucket of saltwater I scooped out of the tank. So I pulled the large top rock pieces out one ant a time and submerged them in the bucket and removed the silt from them and replaced them in the tank. I left the bottom pieces alone as they are providing the foundation to keep all my rock solid and did not want to pull them off the bottom glass surface. I vacuumed the silt layer off removing most of the silt as well as enough water that it just seemed natural to mix up some more saltwater and do a partial water change if you will. I replaced about 45 gallons of water that came out in the silt vacuuming process. pumped in the new saltwater and allowed the pump to circulate things for 24 hours before another water test. The results of this water test have me a little puzzled. They were as follows specific gravity 1.020 (after top off to start overflows) pH 8.2, Ammonia 0.25 ppm, Nitrite 0 ppm, Nitrate 5-10ppm. I guess the puzzling part for me is that there appears to be low levels of ammonia now (after adding the sand) and the same amount of Nitrate as before I changed the 45 gallons of water yet there are no nitrites. I'm not sure whats going on with my water. I have not seen a diatom bloom or anything noticeable about the water other than the dust cloud I made putting the sand in.

I started my main pump and started the water circulating through the entire system. It's been running for about 18 hours now and seems to be running ok. I plan to leave things run a little longer and do another water test today sometime. I will update with the results later. I did a power loss test to see how things settle in the event of a power loss. I made a few adjustments with how deep the return nozzles are set into the tank as when the power was removed the siphon sucked a bit more water back into the sump than I wanted in there.

I hooked up my skimmer and have it running. it seems to be foaming ok but needs to run for a few days and probably be tweaked as it seemed at first to be putting allot of foam and water into the collection cup after running for more than 12 hours the skimmer is producing less foam than at initial start up and the foam doesn't make it all the way over the top edge of the cylinder into the collection cup. There also seems to be a pulsation of the air sucking into the skimmer's open end of the air tube. I'm gonna let it run another day or so and see what develops. then probably tweak it.

Nick


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

WOW 10000 character post limit reached on that post.

Also here is a link to the Hofer gurgle buster I decided to try to help keep down water noise.

http://home.everestkc.net/jrobertson57268/HGB/HGB_construction.html

I think I will leave it at that for now and I'm sure there are a million things I forgot to mention. Take a look at my you tube vids (link above to my channel) for more babbling by me about this project so far.

Any comments/questions/advice is welcomed. i am sure i will add more to this thread after I get some sleep.

Nick


----------



## thefishboy (Aug 20, 2010)

Wow, long post!! Sounds like its going to be a very nice tank!1 What other fish are you going to have in there???!!


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

still working on the list of fish I'd like to have.. I really want a maroon clown but am concerned that the maroon and the tomato will not get along. I'd rather have the maroon but the tomato came with the setup... not sure what I want to do there. maybe I'll give it a try after I get things going and start moving fish in there. I could probably find a home for the tomato if needed. Ii also would like to get a flame angel eventually... time to go test my water...


----------



## thefishboy (Aug 20, 2010)

They sound cool, tomatoe clowns are about £129 here expensive!


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

Test results are in they are as follows

specific gravity 1.020
pH 8.2 hard to get the right colors.. I'm color blond I think
Ammonia 0.25 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate 20ppm


Nitrate up from 5--10ppm to 20ppm

everything else no change

not sure I like the colors of these tests some of them look different colors depending on the light...
ammonia and nitrite colors are easy to distinguish pH and nitrate some look the same depending on lighting


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

Alright tonight's test results.

specific gravity 1.020
pH 8.2
Ammonia 0.25 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate 20ppm



​


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

Tonight's test results.

specific gravity 1.020
pH 8.2
Ammonia 0.25 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate 20ppm​
Not much going on in my tank right now...
​


----------



## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

its a process LOL the hardest part is right now .. well now and after your first bits of live stock go in.. then you have the worst time going slow it really sux


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

Tonight's test results.

specific gravity 1.018 (I had allot of evap while gone today I put over a gallon of fresh RO water in)
pH 8.2
Ammonia 0.25 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate 20ppm

no changes otherwise...

However, I saw the first sign of life off of my live rock tonight.​​

Came home today to find this little creature on the front glass of my tank. It's really really small. My camcorder is against the glass and in macro mode. Kinda looks to me like what I imagine a baby star looks like. can anyone confirm what this is? good/bad? It's about the size of an pencil eraser in surface area.

Sorry the pic is so big.

{edit: Sorry Warpig, I had to remove this pic. The forum has rule on pic size limits and this was far in excess of anything reasonable. You need to resize the pic to fit within the forum limits. Thanks! - Pasfur}


----------



## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

yep its a star.. this one typicaly hitch hikes on LR and is not bad at all for your system .. they eat all sorts of algae and other left overs in the tank with out needing to be fed... they are kinda cool to watch and every now and again you can see them split....


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

Pasfur.. sorry about the pic size.. I realized it was huge but had nothing to resize it with. I have since resized it and cropped most of the fluff out. i was just looking for the size limits in the forum faq and rules but didnt see it. I may be blind but I looked tonight to avoid posting a pic too big again. I resized to about 800x600 down from 5 Megapixels. Hope that is enough. 

here it is again for anyone who wanted to see it (much much smaller this time)

On another note I cannot find him tonight in the tank... he's hiding. Also learned today that one of my diamond goby's in my uncle's tank is MIA hopefully he will turn up, but he hasn't been seen in over a week what a cool little fish. I hope we find him











Also bearwithfish thanks for the confirmation. That's what it looked like to me but I'm new at this and havent really gotten into stars...


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

tonight's test results...

specific gravity 1.019
pH 8.2
Ammonia 0.25 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate 20ppm

Still not much going on with the water... 

Is it possible my tank "cycled" from the live rock being in the tank for almost two weeks now, the first week with the water circulating with only power heads keeping it moving. I didnt have my test kit then so I wasnt doing daily tests last week. This week barely any changes from day to day, not like you see with other people cycling their tanks. never saw any diatom bloom or anything.

Trying to be patient...

​


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

Results just in...

specific gravity 1.020
pH 8.2
Ammonia 0.25 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate 20ppm

I'm tiring of copy/pasting results...
is anything ever gonna change besides small fluxes in my specific gravity... 
one week now with a small .001 flux down/up in SG everything else rock solid.
mind you the water and rock has been in the tank circulating since the weekend of haloween. did I start testing on the tail end of the cycle.

​


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

Remaining patient... it's tough... I'd like to see my nitrate and ammonia drop. I have spotted the first signs of life in the tank, but no coraline algae or diatom bloom yet  water and live rock have been together three weeks and counting. waiting... not so patiently...


----------



## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

keep holding out it will be worth it!!!! look at it this way wait a potential 3-5 more weeks ooooorrrrrr rick any live stock you put in and then have to fix all the crazy stuff that goes wrong???
i took option 2 and it was horrible took almost 3 months to get going again...


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

In Today's News...

specific gravity 1.020
pH 8.2
Ammonia 0.25 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate 20ppm

I spotted a second starfish  two on the front glass at one time...

still not sure the skimmer is right. sometimes there is foam just barely overflowing to the collection cup sometimes nothing. There does appear to be dark gunk caking inside the top of the skimmer... I wish I had a good video of exactly how the skimmer should look when it's running right to compare mine to... 

​


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

You want the paste coming out of the skimmers neck to be as thick as possible. If you notice that a thick paste is developing inside the neck when you clean, then allow the skimate in the collection cup to be more wet. It takes tinkering.


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

*Start of the diatom bloom?*

Things seem to be happening today in my tank.

It looked as if my sand has a bunch of red speckles in it and is more dull today. I moved a little bit of the sand to verify i wasn't seeing things. The disturbed spot looks bright. 

Here is a comparison pic


















I also noticed some coralline algae coming in on two of my rocks


















hoping that this is my diatom bloom starting up


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

No change in the water test results yet...

specific gravity 1.020
pH 8.2
Ammonia 0.25 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate 20ppm

Hopefully soon the nitrate and ammonia will start to drop




​


----------



## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

for what its worth i can not see the pix but is sounds like you are in the bloom!!!!!!!!!!! see waiting payed off.... oh man its not even my tank and i am getting excited!! lol


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

I've been topping off with saltwater for the last several days trying to start to raise my salinity otherwise no other changes to the water.

specific gravity 1.022
pH 8.2
Ammonia 0.25 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate 20ppm

if the following pics are my diatom bloom it looks to be ramping up.























​​


----------



## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

the first pic is pods they are great little critters and good indication that your system is healthy!!!! yeah thats the bloom alright...


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

I was wondering what those were. they are all stuck to the glass and waving around in the current so i cannot tell if they are alive and moving on their own or whether they are not. they are too small to see what they actually look like. There was allot of them this morning and this evening most are gone or not stuck to the glass anymore.


----------



## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

they will hide in the rock and sand while your lights are on but under moon lights or when you first turn a light on they will be every where.... kinda cool IMO


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

Still topping with saltwater every day... no other changes to the water. yet. how long should it take for the nitrate and ammonia to start to drop?

specific gravity 1.023
pH 8.2
Ammonia 0.25 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate 20ppm
​
set up my moonlights last night. no pics they are not very bright. I will see if I can take some low light moonlight pics. not sure I'm happy with them but they were included in the setup...

working on my stocking list and trying to figure out what I need for a clean up crew... another post on that hopefully later today. my LFS is running a 50% off sale this weekend only on all livestock and clean up crew members... I am VERY tempted by the prices but am trying to resist... I dont want to make any mistakes in my stocking list/order that i will regret. It's hard i have been going into this LFS nearly every weekend for 8 months and this is the FIRST sale of this magnitude... Still got to get my Q tank set up. maybe do that today... the list is at least getting shorter...


​


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

here's an update...

I went to Meijer the other day and picked up a new tank for my Q tank. Ii decided to pick up a 20 gallon high deluxe aquarium kit. it is in a "Tetra" box and actually has "Perfecto" all over the paperwork inside. It was on sale for $69 and comes with the tank the filter a heater a hood with light a small net and some other stuff only useful for fresh water. I didnt know how the filter was built but decided since it was on sale I would take a chance. The other option was a 20G high tank lid/light $60 + a $30 filter and a $20 heater at the LFS.

So I got it home hoping the filter would be useful. turns out I think it will work out great. the included filter is a tetra FS 20-40 HOB filter. I was disappointed with the heater. It seems nice enough but unfortunately it is preset and not adjustable. The setting is described in the paperwork as set at 76-80*f. I would like to have an adjustable heater so I can precisely match the temp in my display tank. I think I have a spare laying around I will use. I think the included filter box will work out well. I opened it up and it contains a removable filter cartridge. I removed the cartridge and left the physical filter media in for now just for the first couple days the water is running as I saw some large particles of something in the water. I will pull it out later. In the mean time i removed the cartridge from the HOB box and noticed there looked like enough room i could slide a few pieces of small live rock into the box. So i went to my sump and grabbed out a handful of small pieces. i dropped them into the filter box and the fit very well. i filled the box with rock and put the cover back on. i will use the rock in there for now. I will run out and get a sponge and stuff it in that spot shortly I think. Something I can easily throw away if I end up with a troubled fish in Q.

I filled the tank with RO water and mixed my salt. I put just a tad too much salt in. I was shooting for a salinity of 1.016 and ended up with 1.017. i dropped a few pieces of 4" pvc into the tank for refuge for the fish that visit there. I will probably come up with something better but this is what I had laying around.

Here are a few pics...


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

Just over two weeks in Quarantine Keeping an eye on my water parameters i realized that my live rock in the filter wasnt doing anything for me. never any nitrite's or nitrates just a steady increase in ammonia. So I have been doing 20% water changes just about every other day for the past week and my ammonia levels are still higher than i like to see. So I went out and bought a sponge filter. It seems to be doing a better job already Im seeing increases of nitrite and nitrate now but my ammonia levels are still higher than I like the sponge has only been in there three days and at least I'm seeing some things happen besides ammonia rising. I'm going to do a 100% water change just to get me back to some clean water. We will let the sponge seed for the duration of the damsels stay in the Q tank.










Also my main tank has sprouted what appears to me a green hair algae outbreak... not even any fish in there yet. My berlin skimmer that I wasnt sure was working properly has had the pump bite the dust and seeing replacement pumps were over $100 and I was not sure the skimmer was functioning correctly I replaced it. i picked up a new in box marineland Pro In sump skimmer 300 for ~$200 off ebay. It's breaking in right now. put it in a couple days ago.


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

NIce updates. A great example of setting up a Q tank. By the way, I think you will be very happy with your new skimmer.


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

as it has not broken in yet, I need to adjust the skimmer every day. It is already pulling gunk out of the water. My only problem is that I'm not sure exactly how it should be set. the instructions leave much open for interpretation. I'll play with it this weekend, it should be broken in by then according to the instructions. I'm also concerned about my algae issue. My coralline algae is starting to be covered by the green hair algae, and there are tufts of it in my sand bed too growing like grass. I'm afraid it's getting out of hand. I need to replace my T5 bulbs I'm sure but I am having a really hard time finding them locally they are longer than 48" (58" or 59" if I remember) NOBODY stocks them around here. Also in one pick there is some dark green algae on the tips of one of my live rocks that looks allot like corraline algae but is a almost flourescent dark green color. It can be seen in the center of the pic above the skimmer pic's on the very tip of one of my pieces of rock


----------



## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

i love following this thread... for some reason i cannot see the previous pix though.... are you uploading them or using photo bucket? i only ask as i can see those two forma of pix normally


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

hmmm if you can see any of the pics in this thread you should be able to see them all. They are all on my own webserver. anyone else having trouble seeing the pics? maybe my server is messed up.

Nick


----------



## james7139 (Jul 10, 2010)

I can see them all.i will steal this setup mind you.


----------



## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

Warpig said:


> hmmm if you can see any of the pics in this thread you should be able to see them all. They are all on my own webserver. anyone else having trouble seeing the pics? maybe my server is messed up.
> 
> Nick


no i do believe it is my work PC... i can see them fine from home!! i dont know why they wont show on the other comp but it does not matter you have some great pix!!!!!!!!!! (now that i can see them LOL)


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

Water tests....



The display tank...
two months and still no fish in there  One day I will have a FISH tank 

specific gravity 1.023
pH 8.4
Ammonia 0 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate 20ppm

It appears now I am starting to have a bubble algae issue as well and my pH is up some...
in a FOWLR tank what should I do about this algae if anything... See pics below

In the Q tank the sponge filter seems to be kicking into gear some. The fish are all doing well. They are eating like savages and whenever I turn on the lights and then open the lid to the tank they all come up toward the top center of the tank waiting for the feast. They have pretty much given up hiding from me unless i stick my hand in the tank. I think they have finally realized I'm not there to kill them. 

specific gravity 1.022
pH 8.2
Ammonia 0.25 ppm
Nitrite 1.0 ppm
Nitrate 5 ppm

I am wondering about a few things I have noticed looking into the DT. In the pic below I have green algae, what looks like some bubble algae on one rock and I have a bunch of pieces of live rock that seem to have a bright white powdery substance piling up on them. All three of these things can be seen in this one pic of one of my rocks... The only rock with bubble algae on it. Being a newb I'm reading several different opinions about the algae and would like to know what people here would do about it in a FOWLR tank if anything. I also am curious about the bright white powdery looking substance that appears to be piling in certain areas on some of my rock surfaces. the tank sure is looking ugly. I'm trying to not be a subscriber of the "everything needs to look sterile" school of thought. i must admit the tank i envisioned had none of this ugly green stuff and it also had fish in it. lol.

​









My pH has gone up to 8.4 but otherwise all my water parameters have stayed exactly where they are since before thanksgiving.

Thanks for any input anyone has.

Nick

​


----------



## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

I've always found the best way to prevent problem algae is to use a good water source and to encourage the growth of coraline algae by keeping alkalinity and calcium levels correct. You didn't post calcium or alkalinity results... are you testing these right now? From week 2 to week 6 I would test these almost daily!


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

No I haven't been testing for those two. Looks like it's time for another test kit... although I am far past the 6th week stage. Will bringing these two into check cause the current algae growth to go away or will I need to do something else do you think? I had a bad feeling you were going to say that very thing. At least confirms in my mind that I have been making the mistake I thought I might be. I just realized it too late. What would be the best way to bring these two parameters into check? Obviously my water has too much of something or not enough of something else for these to be out of balance?

Thanks for your reply, you have been very helpful as always.


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

picked up the API Reef Master kit to add to my test kits today.

Here is the complete rundown

specific gravity 1.023
pH 8.4
Ammonia 0 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate 20ppm
Alkalinity 12dKH
Calcium 340ppm
Phosphate 2.0ppm

By reading Pasfur's "Alkalinity and Calcium testing - important for every marine aquarium"
"http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...calcium-testing-important-every-marine-33079/ 

It appears as if my Alkalinity is on the high side of normal at 12dKH
but my Calcium is low at 340ppm.

If I am understanding his post correctly this means I need to do a water change.
I was digging through the box of goodies I received with the tank and found a brand new 16 oz. bottle of Kent Marine Liquid Reactor calcium buffer. Is this something I can/should use in a situation like this?

Nick



​
​


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

Changed out about 40Gallons of water from the 180 yesterday. Later more test results...


----------



## reefsahoy (Jul 16, 2010)

phosphate of 2 is WAY TOO HIGH! You have to get that down to as close to zero as possible. it should not even be detectable using a test kit. short of getting phosphate to undetectable there's nothing you can do to control the algae. That should be your #1 priority. It will take alot of patients, time, before you will be able to get to zero especially if it's been awhile that your tank has been high in phosphates. let me ask you, where did you get those rocks? phosphate may be coming from there. I know other reefers don't think they can act like phosphate sponges and then release it slowly in the tank but i would guess those rocks were high in phosphate before you even started your tank. one of the thing you can do is run phosphate remover in the tank on a 24/7, change water constantly until your rocks rid themselves of phosphates. You might want to run rowaphos 24/7/365 until the phoshpates go to zero. you also say you are topping off with salt water, i don't understand that, it should be topped off with fresh water otherwise sg will increase. BTW turn all yor lights off too. this will rid the tank of algae, however unless you get to zero phosphates and you turn the lights back on, algae will return.


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

reefsahoy said:


> phosphate of 2 is WAY TOO HIGH! You have to get that down to as close to zero as possible. it should not even be detectable using a test kit. short of getting phosphate to undetectable there's nothing you can do to control the algae. That should be your #1 priority. It will take alot of patients, time, before you will be able to get to zero especially if it's been awhile that your tank has been high in phosphates. let me ask you, where did you get those rocks? phosphate may be coming from there. I know other reefers don't think they can act like phosphate sponges and then release it slowly in the tank but i would guess those rocks were high in phosphate before you even started your tank.


I bought the whole setup used. The tank was a reef tank. the day the owner broke it down I didnt notice an ounce of algae in the tank before we started. I decided I wanted to do FOWLR and we put the corals in my uncles tank. I did have the rock circulating in a fish tank use only rubbermaid garbage can for about a month before I got the tank up and saltwater in it then moved the rock in the tank.



reefsahoy said:


> you also say you are topping off with salt water, i don't understand that, it should be topped off with fresh water otherwise sg will increase.


I do have some salt creep around the top of my sump. I have been topping mostly with fresh lately but after I started the tank my sg was low from the start . I topped with salt for quite a while just to bring the sg up slowly. there are also times that my sg was falling too. I dont have a clue why. It didnt make sense to me either. Allot of water was evaporating every day. I have since fired up the humidifier and there is MUCH less evap from the sump. I have the humidifirer set to about 50% humidity in the room and It puts about ~8 gallons of water into the air a day... good news is now most of it is out of the humidifier not my sump.




reefsahoy said:


> BTW turn all yor lights off too. this will rid the tank of algae, however unless you get to zero phosphates and you turn the lights back on, algae will return.


I have had the lights off on the tank most of the past several days since there are no fish in it yet and my new T5HO Actinic's and 10,000's are currently on order as I do not know how old the previous bulbs are but they are blackening on the ends so they are way too old. I have ordered replacements waiting for their arrival. otherwise the lights have been off for about 80% of the past several days and the algae seems to be going away a bit.


----------



## reefsahoy (Jul 16, 2010)

could you give me the run down on the rocks? meaning the entire process you went thru from buying the setup to starting and placing the rocks in your display tank with approx time frame and length of time? you probably had live rock from the previous owner and lots of stuff died off in the process so now the rocks are leaching phosphates into the water as the "stuff" deteriorates/rots inside the rocks.

Yeah water evaporates from the tank quickly especially in the winter! you should be topping off with fresh water. what are you using to test for SG? if it's a swing arm, make sure there are no tiny bubbles on the swing arm (and i mean tiny) when testing water, make sure the arm is clean by using vinigar every so often to get salt off the arm. Those SG swing arm devices can give misleading SG easily if you are not paying close attention to the quality of the swing arm. remember the accuracy of reading depends on the swing arm.

Run rowaphos to reduce the phosphates in the water, you can check the display tank water and the output water of the phosphate remover where is should be much lower. if not then re[lace the rowaphos with a new batch until your reading drops to undetectable.


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

reefsahoy said:


> could you give me the run down on the rocks? meaning the entire process you went thru from buying the setup to starting and placing the rocks in your display tank with approx time frame and length of time? you probably had live rock from the previous owner and lots of stuff died off in the process so now the rocks are leaching phosphates into the water as the "stuff" deteriorates/rots inside the rocks.


About the last weekend of 9/25 I picked up everything from the PO. that day he pumped his two 44 gallon water change garbage cans each half full with water from the tank while emptying the tank. We put as much rock in each can as we could and kept it under the half full water level. After putting half a can full of rock/water (couldn't fill the cans or we wouldn't be able to move them) we put the balance of the rock in several empty salt buckets filled with tank water and covered with the lids. We transported the rock and accessories first lighting pumps etc. All the rock arrived at my place and all rock from the second can and most of the rock from the buckets was consolidated into one of the 44 gallon cans and the water pumped in from the second can to cover as much rock as possible. If you watch the video's on my You Tube channel YouTube - 00Warpig00's Channel you will see the noob mistakes I have made.. I see some of them now but didn't at the time obviously... still learning... the hard way...

In Part 1 it appears as if the right thing to do would have been to not pile the rock out of the top of the water in the bucket, or leave some sand in the 2nd bucket and reuse it after not having any circulation in that sand bucket for over a month.

The rock was put in that can and water circulated through the can with a pump at the bottom and the open end of the hose at the top. Another issue is the first night I didn't notice the water temperature was rising from the pump motor running in the can when I went to bed... Not enough time had elapsed for the water to heat up. When I awoke in the morning the water temperature in the can was around 90 degrees. I unplugged the pump and let the water cool into the ~75 degree range then adopted an 8 hours on 8 hours off duty cycle to keep the water between 70 & 80 degrees for the balance of the time the rock was in the can.

The weekend of 10/2 I built my stand. Rock still circulating 8 on 8 off to control temperature.

The following couple of weeks I moved the tank onto the stand. Worked on tank plumbing. Worked on the sump. Installed my RO unit. Filled the tank 2/3rds full of RO water for three days. Mixed my first batch of salt in the tank to 1.022. measured from day 1 with a CScope refractometer. Moved the rock from the can into the tank and started my skimmer pump circulating the tank water 24/7. water temp stabilized in the 75 degree range due to the skimmer pump not being as robust as the pump in the can.

The first week of November I mixed a can full of RO water and salt and pumped it into the tank stopping just shy of the overflow point. I still needed to check all my plumbing for leaks. 

The second week of November I tested all my plumbing and set up my skimmer. I put the sand from both 44G cans into the tank. Looking back probably another mistake. I probably should have dumped the old sand in favor of new sand and a few big bags of new live sand as well. When I added the sand back a big layer of silt accumulated on all the rock and sand surface. I vacuumed as much of it out as I could.
I filled with RO water directly into the tank until the overflows were running how I liked. Then I started topping off any evap daily with salt water to start to raise my SG to 1.024 and set up the lighting. From this point I checked SG every couple of days prior to topping and if i was down on SG a bit I topped with Saltwater if not I topped with ro water.





reefsahoy said:


> Yeah water evaporates from the tank quickly especially in the winter! you should be topping off with fresh water. what are you using to test for SG? if it's a swing arm, make sure there are no tiny bubbles on the swing arm (and i mean tiny) when testing water, make sure the arm is clean by using vinigar every so often to get salt off the arm. Those SG swing arm devices can give misleading SG easily if you are not paying close attention to the quality of the swing arm. remember the accuracy of reading depends on the swing arm.


No swing arm. I went for the CScope refractometer from day 1.



reefsahoy said:


> Run rowaphos to reduce the phosphates in the water, you can check the display tank water and the output water of the phosphate remover where is should be much lower. if not then re[lace the rowaphos with a new batch until your reading drops to undetectable.


After my ~25% water change and waiting two days my numbers are similar than before the change they are as follows.

SG 1.022
pH 8.4
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 20 ppm
Phosphate 2.0 (still)
Calcium ~350
Alkalinity 10dKH (down 2 from 12)


----------



## reefsahoy (Jul 16, 2010)

i think you have 2 problems here. 1. when you put the rocks in the can you had some die off from heat, no lights hitting the rocks on the bottom and so you have dieoff there. 2. the sand, yes you should have gotten new sand. you definitely have lots of die off there. did you at least wash out the sand with fresh SW?
if you don't have any corals, don't get any and turn off all light to the tank so the algae can die off (will cause some phosphates). use lots of phosphate remover and water changes until you get to zero. i'd seriously consider removing the sand too and when you finally get to zero phosphates i'd add new sand. you're gonna need lots of patients on this one, sorry.


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

Formulating a plan... Any opinions...

Considering doing a few things to combat my phosphate issue. 

All DT lights have been off all week and the green hair is turning white and starting to go away.
I tested my RO water for phosphates and it's undetectable with my API kit. YAY! Thats the good news. the bad news is... that means my phosphates are coming from the rock/sand. My tank water is still at 2.0 phosphates. MY RO is doing it's job. I dont have a DI stage (currently on order) or a inline TDS meter (also on order) and will add these before I do any of the following.

Idea 1. Pumping some water out into one of my water change cans then pulling out all my rock one piece at a time and attempting to rinse/wash/remove all debris & hair algae off of it in a 5 gallon (wash) bucket full of saltwater then into the can until I get all pieces out and washed/cleaned/rinsed. While the rock is in the can I am considering removing and ditching the 4"+ sand bed out of my tank with god knows what dead and decaying in it for a new 1 inch sand mix of new live sand bags and base sand. Then the rock out of the can back through a 5 gallon (final rinse) bucket back into the tank. Dumping the (dirty) water from the can and buckets and pumping a 50% water change into the tank while at the same time adding two Phosban 150 reactors to my sump with rowaphos media. Keep one reactor as a phosban reactor but most likely change the media in the 2nd reactor to carbon after the phosphate issue is resolved leaving them both run all the time afterward in the sump. Adding Chaeto to my fuge in my sump in addition to the live rock that is there now. I think I can pull this off in a weekend.

Idea 2. Add the two phosban reactors and rowaphos and leave all the rock and sand alone. Let my skimmer and the Rowa take care of the phosphate issue. Will this be enough?

opinions please if you have any... I have 5 yellow tail damsels in Q that are a few days from ready to go into the big tank. They have been in Q for ~37 days. I can delay this if I do idea #1... if idea # 2 not sure there would be a benefit to delay moving them into the big tank. Any opinions on this would be welcomed too.

Am I crazy or are either of these sound ideas

Nick


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

Installed my TDS meter tonight. 115 ppm input to the RO filter. 9 ppm on the output of the membrane. DI unit is on order should be here soon.
I also replaced all four of my T5 HO bulbs since I do not know the age of the ones in the fixture when I purchased it and assume they are OLD. I replaced them with two Actinic's and two 10,000K's.

I'm still looking for feedback on my proposed methods for attacking my Phosphate issue in my previous post. anyone have any comments or suggestions... 

Nick


----------



## reefsahoy (Jul 16, 2010)

Warpig said:


> Installed my TDS meter tonight. 115 ppm input to the RO filter. 9 ppm on the output of the membrane. DI unit is on order should be here soon.
> I also replaced all four of my T5 HO bulbs since I do not know the age of the ones in the fixture when I purchased it and assume they are OLD. I replaced them with two Actinic's and two 10,000K's.
> 
> I'm still looking for feedback on my proposed methods for attacking my Phosphate issue in my previous post. anyone have any comments or suggestions...
> ...


are you sure the ro is set up correctly or did you make at least the first 10 gallons on the new membrane before measuring? most ro units have like 98 rejection ratio. this means if you have 115 going in you should have 115 ppm X .02 = 2.3 ppm out. so 9 is high out of the RO (not that it's not better but not in spec to the membrane). BTW make sure you change the carbon prefilter ( i changed both my prefilter to carbon) every 6 to 9 months because if chlorine touches the membrane it will be destroyed and that's the most expensive part of filtering and in doing this your membrane can last several years.


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

No new membrane yet... looks like it may also be time to replace my filter media in my RO unit. I'm getting the impression that the previous owner wasn't forthcoming with information on how long he let things go near the end. I should have just replaced some of this stuff from the start.

Ok replacing filter media... 5 micron sediment filter and carbon stages. will run several tens of gallons through the new stuff then change the membrane to insure no bad water is getting into it.

Nick


----------



## reefsahoy (Jul 16, 2010)

yeah, if you are going to change the membrane, replace the pre filters! i would go with 2 carbon filters instead of 1 sediment and 1 carbon. this way your carbon will insure that no chlorine gets to the membrane. i also added 2 di cartridges after the ro. when the first one changes color and is totally exhausted, swap the first to the second and refill the first so the new di is second inline so you will always insure goo di filtration. in other words the newest di cartridge is always the second in line. this way you will have no waste in di media.


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

reefsahoy said:


> yeah, if you are going to change the membrane, replace the pre filters! i would go with 2 carbon filters instead of 1 sediment and 1 carbon. this way your carbon will insure that no chlorine gets to the membrane. i also added 2 di cartridges after the ro. when the first one changes color and is totally exhausted, swap the first to the second and refill the first so the new di is second inline so you will always insure goo di filtration. in other words the newest di cartridge is always the second in line. this way you will have no waste in di media.


Can I pick your brain on my two proposed methods (a few posts up) of working out my phosphate issue? Do either of the above sound like they would be a workable way to work out my phosphate issue in addition to the RO filter media change and addition of a DI stage. I was thinking method 1 as I'd really like to replace the sand in the tank and go with a shallower sand bed. I figure while Im at it i will remove the algae from my rock and whatever else comes out of it. Do at least a 50% water change at the same time and set up a couple of PhosBan Reactors with some RowaPhos. There are a ton of snail shells in my tank that were/are part of the live sand. I honestly don't know if any of them have dead snails rotting in them, there are allot of shells and I have only looked into a few of them. I think getting rid of the sand and all those shells with whatever may be dead inside of them and laying down a fresh sandbed of 80lbs of aragonite and 40 lbs of new live aragonite would help. But I'm a newb so may not see some of the pitfalls to a plan like I have come up with.


----------



## reefsahoy (Jul 16, 2010)

Warpig said:


> Can I pick your brain on my two proposed methods (a few posts up) of working out my phosphate issue? Do either of the above sound like they would be a workable way to work out my phosphate issue in addition to the RO filter media change and addition of a DI stage. I was thinking method 1 as I'd really like to replace the sand in the tank and go with a shallower sand bed. I figure while Im at it i will remove the algae from my rock and whatever else comes out of it. Do at least a 50% water change at the same time and set up a couple of PhosBan Reactors with some RowaPhos. There are a ton of snail shells in my tank that were/are part of the live sand. I honestly don't know if any of them have dead snails rotting in them, there are allot of shells and I have only looked into a few of them. I think getting rid of the sand and all those shells with whatever may be dead inside of them and laying down a fresh sandbed of 80lbs of aragonite and 40 lbs of new live aragonite would help. But I'm a newb so may not see some of the pitfalls to a plan like I have come up with.


pick my brain? there's not much there! lol. Anyhow let me stasrt by giving you a history to my current tank. i upgraded to a new tank and did the following.

1. removed all live stock from the old tank and stored them in a 30 allon tank with a filter and some of the live rock for bio filtration.
2. removed all my rocks and used a steel brush scraping them completely clean and throwing them into a garbage can filled with SW and an air stone for a several days.
3. removed all the sand and tossed it into my garden.
4. used new sand and made a low sand bed in the new aquarium. never reuse old san otherwise major roblems!
5. re-scape the new tank with the rocks from the garbage can
6. took some left over rocks and threw them into the sump.
7. loaded up on rowaphos canister and ran it and is a constant in my new setup.
8. huge skimmer
9. in the process i lost one fish, a maroone clown. i had to seperate him from the rest of the fish because he was too agressive and forgot that he was in another tank so he froze to death.

i now have undetectable phosphates. 
so i would pick option 2. run rowaphos no matter if you can detect phosphates or not because algae can consume phosphates at the same rate phosphate is being released and you'll never detect it and can't figure out why algae s growing. just MHO

this is how my current tank look now at least the left side!


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

Being I didn't have any fish in the tank yet I decided to do a 99% water change and replace all my sand. I anticipate my live sand moved from the old setup and into the new setup had quite a bit of die off. and was probably leeching phosphates back into the tank. So I pulled out the rock water and sand and replaced the sand. I also didn't have a DI stage in my RO filter. I added a DI stage and a TDS meter and now am sure I am not putting nutrient rich water into the tank. I decided while I was at it I would add a pair of PhosBan reactors to the sump and run some RowaPhos. Tank has been running this way a couple weeks now and I have finally added my first fishes to the tank. 5 Yellow Tail Blue Damsels. Next up. A Diamond Goby a Yellow Headed Sleeper Goby and a Royal Gramma.

Here is a link to a video for anyone interested.






Water parameters are doing ok so far.

SG 1.026
PH 8.2
Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5
KH 8
Phosphate 0
Calcium 420


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

After 3 weeks in Q. all three eating aggressively and looking great I moved my newest additions to the display tank over the weekend. 






have some Cyano on the glass and it had speckled up my sand pretty good too. after just two days the gobies have most of the the sand cleaned up. My Yellow Headed Sleeper goby even likes to pick at the green hair algae on some of my rocks.


----------



## Warpig (Mar 6, 2010)

time to wake this thread back up...

So I've been heading down the road of stocking my tank. had some ups and some downs. The tank is really starting to look great. I have a little bit of hair algae nothing like 6 months ago. Coralline algae has been taking hold over allot of my live rock. My sump, skimmer, live rock is doing a fine job keeping the tank clean. i do have a small "bioload" if you will, on my tank as the 180 only has 7 small fish in it right now. 5 yellow tail damsels, a Royal Gramma and a yellow headed sleeper goby. Just to get an idea how well things were working with my filtering setup I did a test. Weekly complete water testing and no water changes, a little bit of calcium and alkalinity buffering here and there to keep it in the sweet spot as much as possible... I wanted to see the timeframe of my water starting to go downhill. With weekly water tests the tank went 4 months without a water change with all parameters good... 0 ammonia/nitrite/phosphate the entire 4 months finally after the nitrate got up to ~20 I did a 50% water change over the weekend. The remaining 7 fish in the tank seem to be thriving and all get along great so far. Thats it for the "ups"

as for the "downs"... there have been a few of those too. I lost my favorite fish, a two lined "railway" sleeper goby he had an awesome personality and I never got tired of watching him.. I goofed and left the center lid open on the tank one night and he jumped out of the tank. I found him dried up on the floor the following morning.  had some other downs. I have been trying to get a flame angel or pair and a coral beauty or pair into my display tank. Things went bad with both the flame angel and the coral beauty they died in the Q tank a rather quick death same symptoms for both. Fine and eating well one day... the next day not eating. i tried garlic laced foods but still no eating... I didnt see anything else wrong but they stopped eating and two days later or so each one died... same scenario for both it appeared. That was a very time consuming affair as they each lived in Q for at least three weeks each before they died. So, I have not successfully put a fish in my DT in over four months. After my experience with the Angels I figured i needed to break down my Q tank and washed EVERYTHING in/around the tank in a bleach/water mix and I was still down from my Angelexperience so I let the Q tank sit empty for a month. Then I filled it with fresh RO water and let it sit with all my goodies in it soaking in the tank but nothing running for another two weeks just to be sure there was no residual bleach in/on the goodies. Then emptied the tank again and filled it with salt water. I pulled a small piece of live rock out of my DT sump and put it in the Q tank to seed the tank and start the "Cycle". When the cycle is done that piece of rock is going from the Q into the trash. The Q has been running for almost a month now and is almost cycled and ready for fish again. Ammonia at 0 nitrites at 1 and nitrates at ~20 looks like it's almost "done" still hesitant to put any fish in q until my nitrites are at 0 and I do a 100% water change in the Q tank. Q tank has been down for several months whats another week or so for the cycle to complete.

Of course all this time has made me think of what I want to do next. I want to replace my railway goby but don't see them too often locally. Also still want to get a Flame and a coral beauty or pair of each in there. I am also giving serious thought to getting a porcupine puffer. they are just so neat I really want one. I do have some concerns with that. Not too worried about my clean up crew becoming lunch as I never put in a clean up crew, but I am concerned that there is a chance the puffer will see my gobies as lunch since they are kinda small still. Also would be worried about my Damsels if I thought a putter could actually catch one of them... Reading about them and watching some videos has scared me as I have seen some people for whatever reason they may have feeding goldfish to their puffers... Not sure why people do that but makes me worry about my other smaller fish in the DT. I do have a stocking list from several months ago that I am working down and still dont have any of my fish from my uncles tank home yet... i hoped I would long ago, but things are going slower than i hoped. 

Here is a link to my stocking list thread for anyone interested. http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...arpigs-180-build-pfirst-draft-stocking-56306/

Anyone have any suggestions/concerns advice on things I may be overlooking on my new desire for a puffer and when in my order of things he should be added?

Edit: I will post some fresh pics/video soon of the DT... the lights are off on the tank right now...

Nick


----------

