# New 29g planted log



## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

Well, I thought I'd make a log of my 2nd planted tank. This is a tank I got for my (early) birthday present.

I learned a lot from my first planted tank, and I really wanted to go for a more natural looking aquascape this time around.

So far, this tank has had its MAJOR ups and down.

I had the tank set up for 2 weeks and then last friday I woke up to a massive crack in my tank and water spilling on my floor. It was NOT a fun day. Here are some before and after pictures of that.


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

I replaced the tank, thankfully, just in time for my plant shipment to arrive.

So heres where I am now.

I've added 7 lemon tetra who I THINK are exhibiting spawning behavior. There are a couple who are chasing each other around the tank. They then will *almost* lay on the substrate in the front left corner with that needle-leaf ludwigia and rub up against each other. 

Is that what this is? Ive never seen it before in my other tank with my glowlights or blue tetra. Its very weird.

If they are spawning, what are the chances of any of the fry making it? All I have in the tank right now are these 7 lemons.


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

So Im worried about my tetra...

I added 7 lemon tetra on Saturday. They seemed okay that night and the next morning. 

On Sunday I noticed them all swimming in the bottom right corner..they occasionally will swim to the other side of the tank but the majority of their time is spent in the corner. They swim in the middle to bottom section of the corner so I dont think its an oxygen issue.

I came home today and found one of the tetra dead in the same corner.. Ive inspected them all for ich or any signs of illness and they all look healthy. Now there are 5 of them swimming in the corner and 1 of them is kind of hovering at the top of the tank in my floated plants near the surface. 

I tested my water last night and ammonia was 0, nitrite was 0 and nitrate was around 0. pH is about 7.4 and the temp is at 78. I have very soft water as well.

Tonight I tested my water and the ammonia was at about .025 ppm, nitrite was 0 and ph was still 7.4. I did a water change tonight just in case.

Im not sure what is going on. I'm wondering if the guy at the fish store might have hurt some of them. When he was catching the last 2, he sort of pinned them down against the gravel with his net...they seemed okay at the time, once he put them in the bag. Could this be a possible reason? Im really at a loss here. 

This was my second planted tank, and as Byron advised, you can add fish once your tank is heavily planted. I havent lost a single fish in my first tank with this method. Was it beginners luck?


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

When I woke up this morning I thought for sure I'd have at least 1 dead fish.

Turns out, they all seem fine.. 

Im really confused. The lights are still out in the tank, but none of them are in the corner, and the one tetra who was hovering diagonally at the top under the floating plants seems to have returned to normal... I thought for sure he wouldn't make it through the night.

I'm really puzzled at this... at ideas?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

First off, that is a very nice aquascape. Well done.:welldone:

Now to respond to your questions. What you describe in post 2 is likely spawning behaviour. Changes in water parameters such as what occurred from the store tank to your aquarium can often trigger this, because it replicates what occurs in the fish's natural habitat. Spawning with forest fish almost always occurs at the start of the rainy season when the streams are inundated with cooler water but also water with a very different pH. Difficult species can often be spawned by substantially altering the water parameters.

As for fry surviving, possible but unlikely. In very thickly-planted tanks [let those plants really grow in;-)] eggs will be scattered in vegetation [Java Moss is ideal for this] and often survive predation if the fish are few and well fed. Fry can find microscopic plankton in heavily-planted tanks and will suddenly appear. Usually just a few, unless you specifically work to raise them with infusoria, removing the other fish, etc. Some fish are more proficient at this than others. I have dozens of Emperor Tetra fry that have survived over the past several months from many spawnings. They just suddenly show up, usually 2, 3, or 4 at about 1/4 inch when I first notice them. I have had one fry appear from many species of characin over the years. Another benefit of well-planted tanks.

The fish sound fine. The one dead may well have been due to injury, it is very easy to injure fish with a net, I have done it. If the others do well, after a couple days i would see if the store will replace the one. Some stores ask for the "corpse" and a water sample, some don't. Worth a try; after all, they want your continued business.

Byron.


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

Thanks Byron! Ive learned a lot through your guidance. 

I have one more question, Should I try to get a few more Lemons? I only have 6 right now and I want to get more anyways, but should I wait for the fish to settle down or go ahead and grab a few more?

Id like to try to get at least 9.. so maybe 3 more?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Jbrofish8 said:


> Thanks Byron! Ive learned a lot through your guidance.
> 
> I have one more question, Should I try to get a few more Lemons? I only have 6 right now and I want to get more anyways, but should I wait for the fish to settle down or go ahead and grab a few more?
> 
> Id like to try to get at least 9.. so maybe 3 more?


When I lose a new fish from a group I usually wait a day or two to see if there will be more. Find out if the store will replace the one, and let them know you want to buy a couple more as well. So 3 more will be fine. When I can, I always buy shoaling fish in groups of 3 or more at a time, they settle better.


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

So I went today and got some more lemon tetra. I thought I was getting 4.. Turns out they gave me 1 very pale head and tail light tetra.

Now that I see him in my tank, his black spots on his head and tail are starting to come out. What do I do? I dont really want these fish in my tank.. Will he be fine by himself with my 9 lemon tetra? I know they need a shoal, should I just try to take him back? Its too late tonight and I'm really dreading trying to catch him in my planted tank. >.<


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

I went ahead and added the little head and tail light tetra to the tank. Hes shoaling tightly with the group of lemons right now..I feel terrible that hes by himself though. I just dont know what I should do..its a pretty long drive to take back just 1 fish, especially since I got all the Lemon tetra they had so I wouldn't even be able to trade him.

Id get a shoal of head and tail lights if they weren't almost the EXACT same color as lemon tetra. Plus I want a pair of dwarf cichlids of some type and I'm not sure if 2 shoals of tetra would work. 

So far my stocking ideas are:

Lemon tetra
3 otos (later on once established)
and im leaning towards a pair of apistos of some sort.

Anyone see any issues with my stock list? Would my tank allow for 2 shoals of fish along with the apistos? ( Sorry, i sort of got off topic here..)


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I've had this experience a couple of times, getting fish in the bag I didn't want. I've never taken them back, provided they are not a problem species. Obviously they should be in a group, but...

Yes you can have two groups, but make sure you really want the Head and Tail Light before getting more. They don't remain "small," check the profile. Not a problem fish with what you are planning. Shouldn't be the same colour though, Lemon Tetra will turn lemon yellow and the H&T is more gray with the brilliant eye and caudal patch. I have a group of the much rarer Hemigrammus pulcher, very similar but more colourful, one of my favourite tetra but not seen often (around here anyway). The H&T would actually be a nice dither fish for dwarf cichlids. But only if you like and want them.

I'd think again about otos, assuming you are getting them for algae.


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

I'd prefer to not have the head and tail lights. He seems okay so far, not being aggressive and like I said, hes sticking with the other tetra. Of course I know this can change over time so for now I'll just keep a close watch.

I wanted the oto's not really for algae, just because I really love them in my other planted. They're one of my favorite fish to watch. I dont have to have them though.

The profile for the apistos we have listed says that a harem will work in a 24in tank. Will 1 male and 3 females be okay with the tetra in the tank as well? Would I still be able to get another shoal, even with the extra 2 females?

Also, do the majority of the apistos species prefer a harem?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Jbrofish8 said:


> I'd prefer to not have the head and tail lights. He seems okay so far, not being aggressive and like I said, hes sticking with the other tetra. Of course I know this can change over time so for now I'll just keep a close watch.
> 
> I wanted the oto's not really for algae, just because I really love them in my other planted. They're one of my favorite fish to watch. I dont have to have them though.
> 
> ...


Otos are fine; I thought maybe the algae was the reason, and that is 3 more fish.

Some Apisto species are best in a pair, others in a harem. In a 29g you can still have another group of small peaceful characins whichever, depending upon species of both the characin and the apisto (thinking size and temperament of both). Your live plants help out too.


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

So I've ordered my first fish online.

A harem of double red Apistogramma cacatuoides. They are tank raised in 7.5 pH which will work great with my parameters. I'm really excited. The seller has sent me a picture of the male I will be receiving. Hes still a very young male so he'll color up nicely. He also sent me a picture of the father, who is gorgeous! I've been talking with him through email about the species and his experience with them as well as my newness to shipping fish.. hes defiantly made me feel more comfortable with the whole thing.

Here is my (soon to be) new male. The last picture is of the father.


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

Definitly a beauty. Just went through buying fish online for the first time myself, things went well even with the cold snap that we got here. One suggestion I would make is when you get your guy make sure to take time to acclimate him to your water and not just put him into your tank.


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## Sabledog (Sep 16, 2011)

what a gorgeous plant job you have! Hopefully my 29g will turn out to be half as nice as that!


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

Thank you!! 

This is my second planted tank, and I learned a lot from my first about plant placement and what not. Another thing I like to do is look at other peoples aquascapes. Google planted tanks and just look look look. It can really help you get some ideas of what works and what doesn't.

In my first tank, I was so excited to have plants I just sort of got whatever I thought looked pretty just to have a variety. In this tank I really held back and tried to get plants I knew would look nice in my tank and limit myself to just a few species. My tank isn't perfect by any means, but its definitely an improvement from my first, I think at least. =)


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## platyfishlover123 (Sep 1, 2011)

Your young male looks like a beauty and is going to be a great addition to your beautiful tank. Take some pictures when it is fully stocked! I got to see it


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

I will! Im very excited about my apistos. Ive got their cichlid flakes and a variety of frozen foods ready to go!

Heres a quick update on the tank, I added an ozelot sword and 1 more anubias.My star grass seems to have not done well through the shipping. Some of its leaves have been turning clear since I stuck it in the tank the first night. Is it done for or might it survive? (its the plant on the far right). I ordered some moss a few weeks ago that has apparently gotten lost in the mail. My plan was to cover the top of the cave with it, but I sort of like the color of the slate right now so I'm not sure where i'll put the moss. Any ideas?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

That is indeed a lovely natural aquascape. I do like that.

I've never had stargrass, I would leave it and see what happens, it may well recover. Shipping can really set back plants.


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

Thanks 

How do you decide when a plant is too far gone? There are still pieces of green leaves and stems more towards the center of the plant, so Im holding out that it might recover. Should I pull off all the clear leaves? There are quite a lot of them.


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## platyfishlover123 (Sep 1, 2011)

If you feel you need to pull hem off go ahead, I believe they are dead anyway.... Again OMG that is the most beautiful tank I have seen here so far! Not to offend anyone.


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

Thank you  Thats really nice! But there are tons of tanks on this site that look better than mine. 

Heres my problem, maybe someone can help me out, cause I'm sort of at a loss.

Last Monday I had 8 Lemon Tetra and 1 H&TL tetra (sold to me as a lemon). Im now down to 3 Lemons and 1 h&TL.

I dont get it, they are all acting "normal". Eating, swimming around the tank. Then the next day I come home from work and find 1 dead. I cant figure out what could be killing these Lemon tetra.

My parameters are : ammonia 0, nitrite, 0, nitrate 0. 7.4 pH, 78F. Soft water. I've tested my water almost every day since last Monday and I've had no issues with spikes. I did a routine water change yesterday.

The only things going into the tank are Flourish Comprehensive, Seachem Prime, and some root tabs made by Sera called FlorePlus.

One thing I will say is that I dont usually buy fish from the LFS I got these from. I got 3 otos for my first tank and 2 of them died. Thats the last I've bought there until these lemons. Other than the otos, in the 4 months that my first tank has been set up, Ive only lost 1 other fish.

Any ideas? Since my numbers have dwindled down, I've noticed an increase in "aggression" between the Lemons and Im wondering it maybe this might be the reason for the last few deaths. But just yesterday after my water change they were spawning in my plants again. Today I came home to one more dead tetra.

Hopefully someone can help me. There are no lemon tetras at any of the 3 LFS in my area so I cant increase their numbers without ordering fish. There are also no H&TL tetra at any of the stores either. What should I do?


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

Oh, Ive also added several pond snails from my second tank as well as a small mystery snail on Saturday.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Could be the internal damage issue mentioned previously in this thread. Or the fish may have had something. Or something in the water, though your numbers are fine. You're not overdosing Flourish are you? The amount on the label which is about 1/2 teaspoon for your 29g. once a week?

Check the tank pH prior to and then about an hour after the next water change to see if there is much of a discrepancy. Just a thought. Tap water can change suddenly.

The normal aggression for most tetra does not lead to deaths, and certainly not so fast. You would more likely see fish "hiding" from the aggressor first. I've had this with Emperor Tetra. No problems with the Head & Tail Light?


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

Once a week on the flourish, half a capful is what I've been doing. In a previous issue you had me set out my tap for 24 hours and then test it. It was around 7.5 out of the tap so I wouldn't think that would be the issue.

The Head and tail light seems to be the least aggressive of them all. He swims with the lemons so I don't think hes the issue.

It seems like this is the only LFS that gets the lemons in stock regularly. Id like to have the Lemons but I'm getting so tired of them dying I almost want to give up on them and get fish from the store I usually use. Which sadly is a petsmart but I haven't had any issues with their fish, yet.

What would you recommend I do?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Jbrofish8 said:


> Once a week on the flourish, half a capful is what I've been doing. In a previous issue you had me set out my tap for 24 hours and then test it. It was around 7.5 out of the tap so I wouldn't think that would be the issue.
> 
> The Head and tail light seems to be the least aggressive of them all. He swims with the lemons so I don't think hes the issue.
> 
> ...


My thinking on the pH was more in case the tap water changes; this can occur. It would have to be significant. As I said, just another possibility, ruled out but that's one less.

As you're not going to be able to up the Lemons anyway, consider another shoaling fish for the tank and try those. From a different store if possible.

Are there any signs of trouble with any of the fish before they die? I'm thinking of things like inactivity, lethargy, resting on plants or on the substrate or at the surface, eating differently or not eating, closed fins, loss of colour...


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

Some of the first few that died didn't really swim much or eat. They stayed put in the same spot in the tank. Maybe slightly rapid breathing? Color was fine, no signs of illness other than that. I thought it might be stress? These few died within the first 1-3 days of being in the tank.

The last fish that have died have seemed 100% fine. They were eating, swimming, acting like the tetra in my other tank, then when the light comes on they're dead. 

I know that this LFS adds some sort of stress coat to their bags. I dont think they measure it either, just pump it in from a large bottle. Thats the only thing I can think of that is different than my other LFS other than water/possible illness.

Also, should I try to return the lemons I have or will they be fine? Assuming they survive.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Jbrofish8 said:


> Some of the first few that died didn't really swim much or eat. They stayed put in the same spot in the tank. Maybe slightly rapid breathing? Color was fine, no signs of illness other than that. I thought it might be stress? These few died within the first 1-3 days of being in the tank.
> 
> The last fish that have died have seemed 100% fine. They were eating, swimming, acting like the tetra in my other tank, then when the light comes on they're dead.
> 
> ...


I would keep them, as you like them. If they pull out of whatever it is, or aren't affected, they'll manage.


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

Would you say this was most likely an issue with the LFS in some way?

Im worried because I have some apistos arriving Friday. My parameters are all good. The snails are alive as well, so I dont think its an issue of something getting in the tank that isnt supposed to be there. Should I just try some fish from a different store and see what happens?

Also, this may be a silly question. But what makes a good dither fish?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Jbrofish8 said:


> Would you say this was most likely an issue with the LFS in some way?
> 
> Im worried because I have some apistos arriving Friday. My parameters are all good. The snails are alive as well, so I dont think its an issue of something getting in the tank that isnt supposed to be there. Should I just try some fish from a different store and see what happens?
> 
> Also, this may be a silly question. But what makes a good dither fish?


I honestly have no idea what is wrong with the Lemons. It can be so many things. One tests the water and nothing is obvious there, unless there is something toxic from somewhere and our tests will not show this. I personally will not buy fish from most chain stores. But I am lucky to have a few good true fish stores run by hobbyists near me.

I recently bought 8 pygmy hatchets, wild caught. Within 3 days five had died. I waited a few more days, then went to the store and replaced them (I know the owner, she just replaced them) and got 2 more, so then I had 10. They are fine; active, interacting, eating like mad now for over 2 weeks...who knows. The others may have been still under stress from the shipping and another move was just too much for them.

I would not add more fish until after the Apistos settle, since anything new is always risking ich if nothing else. You can add other characins later.

Good dither fish should be peaceful, not prone to nipping, and not too active. Cichlids, except perhaps for the rift lake species which are something quite unique, are quiet, sedate fish. They can be easily intimidated and frightened, notwithstanding their usually larger size (thinking of many of the larger CA species). Pencilfish tend to make good dither fish for the SA dwarf cichlid species, and hatchetfish. Plus any of the quiet tetra.

Time for supper.


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

Thanks for your help as always, Byron.

I credit a lot of what I've learned these past few months to reading your posts on this forum. So thanks for that. 

Hopefully all will go smoothly with my Apistos and I can look into finding some pencil fish. I've never seen them in this area at any of the LFS around here. I was looking at trying harlequin rasboras or maybe i'll up my h&tl's if I can ever find them again.


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

Byron said:


> I would not add more fish until after the Apistos settle, since anything new is always risking ich if nothing else. You can add other characins later.


The apistos aren't going to be here until thursday/friday. If I were to add a shoal today, would it still be risky? Or would you wait still until the apistos come and are settled?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Jbrofish8 said:


> The apistos aren't going to be here until thursday/friday. If I were to add a shoal today, would it still be risky? Or would you wait still until the apistos come and are settled?


The only concern I would have is the Lemon Tetra issue. If we could be sure it was just the fish, fine. There are some left, plus the H&T, so that will keep the water good. If the existing fish are able to really settle in, there will be more stability when the Apistos are added. That's my thinking.


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

Okay, that makes perfect sense.

I guess what I am worried about is that it is something in my water. I guess trying the fish from my usual store and seeing if they do OK would ease my mind. But I came home today and all is well in the tank (knock on wood). If there were something toxic in my water, my fish now would likely suffer too, right?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Jbrofish8 said:


> Okay, that makes perfect sense.
> 
> I guess what I am worried about is that it is something in my water. I guess trying the fish from my usual store and seeing if they do OK would ease my mind. But I came home today and all is well in the tank (knock on wood). If there were something toxic in my water, my fish now would likely suffer too, right?


One would think so.

One thing to consider that I forgot is copper. If you have copper water pipes (I do), this can leech copper into the water. You see it in the bath tub if there is a blue colouration on white. But this is only an issue with newer plumbing. Aquarists who replace their water pipes sometimes have all the fish die within days after the next water change. If your plumbing hasn't changed within the past few months, or a new hot water tank, etc, I wouldn't worry. Water conditioners that detoxify heavy metals handle trace amounts as would normally be in some tap water; but new copper pipes would add more copper than the conditioner can handle. Plants also take up toxic metals, but this too is limited.


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

I live in a very old house and we have not changed any pipes since I've lived here. (Im renting) Also, the same water goes into my second tank and I've had no issues there. 

I'm REALLY hoping it was just a bad bunch of fish. I just fed the 4 that are left and they all ate like normal tetra (pigs ). So i'm hoping these will be alright. I just wasnt sure if I should grab some fish from another fish store before my apistos arrive in order to possibly eliminate an issue with my water before I stick these fish in, ya know?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Jbrofish8 said:


> I live in a very old house and we have not changed any pipes since I've lived here. (Im renting) Also, the same water goes into my second tank and I've had no issues there.
> 
> I'm REALLY hoping it was just a bad bunch of fish. I just fed the 4 that are left and they all ate like normal tetra (pigs ). So i'm hoping these will be alright. I just wasnt sure if I should grab some fish from another fish store before my apistos arrive in order to possibly eliminate an issue with my water before I stick these fish in, ya know?


What other fish are you thinking of for this tank?


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

I have the harem of apistos coming. 4 females and 1 male (they threw in a free female)..

And this is all I have set so far. >.< :lol:

When I was planning this tank out in my mind I wanted the apistos, a shoal or 2 of tetra/rasboras/something similar, a few otos (because I like the fish), and maybe a whiptail catfish.

Thats as far as its gotten. I wasnt really SET on which shoalers I wanted. I really liked the Lemons though, and when we started discussing the softness of my water in another thread, I thought about getting some rummynose to compliment the yellow of the lemons. However, my pH has not dropped enough yet (or at all, for that matter) so the rummy's are up in the air.


I decided not to get any more fish for now until after the apistos are settled. I realized im in no rush to stock this tank and I dont want to settle on a fish I dont really want because they dont have what I did want in stock.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Jbrofish8 said:


> I have the harem of apistos coming. 4 females and 1 male (they threw in a free female)..
> 
> And this is all I have set so far. >.< :lol:
> 
> ...


I think that's wise. Rummys would be good, you need a decent group, no less than 9. They are the only tetra I know of that always shoal together, and they do better in larger groups. Much like Rasbora (Harlequin, Lambchop, Hengels) in these respects.


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

Just an update:

None of my tetra have died, so all is well!

Bigger update! *My apistos have arrived!! I will take pictures when I get home** Woohoo!!


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

So excited they made it!

They are acclimating now, slowly. They are much smaller than I thought, but so cute!!

Here are a few shots!


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

They are now in the tank and so fun to watch! I cant wait until they are bigger! They all ate a piece of brine shrimp (the male ate 2 pieces!) except for one of the bigger girls, she seems a little more shy so far.

I will say, the Lemon tetra look like giants compared to some of the apistos! 

There is one girl who is concerning me, maybe some of you with experience in dwarf cichlids can tell me if this is normal or not. She is TINY, at least half the size of the other females, and she swims with her belly on the substrate. She swims around with the other fish, and she picks at the substrate like the other fish, she even ate some food tonight. Shes acting 100% healthy except that her belly rarely comes off the substrate. When she tries to swim quickly, she will rise off of it a little bit, but then she goes right back down and sits on it. She kind of reminds me of a mudskipper. I named her Bebe because she is so adorable.

Anyways, is this something I should be concerned with? Here are a few pics of them in their new home, and of the little girl Bebe on the substrate.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

They look good, especially in view of the ordeal they have been through.

I would keep an eye on the odd female, that does not sound normal, but she may just be slower to get settled.


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## n2fish (Sep 18, 2011)

Jabrofish8 - not to derail the conversation too much but I need to ask, in post #2, what are those floating plants in the photo with the beautiful hanging roots?


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

Water Lettuce 

It grows like a weed! Be warned.


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## n2fish (Sep 18, 2011)

Looks terrific!


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

They look very good, hopefully everyone settles in well.


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## n2fish (Sep 18, 2011)

Jbrofish8 said:


> Water Lettuce
> 
> It grows like a weed! Be warned.


Just got back from a new fish store (new to me) and asked about buying some Water Lettuce...it's illegal here in Florida!! I had no idea. I gues it's an invasive species here, choking out parts of the everglades. Well, at least I know where to get some now, as long as I can avoid getting eaten by 'gators or Pythons lol


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

That doesnt surprise me! It grows like crazy in my tank. You might try some of the other floating plants, they have the same root types that hand down like that. You could try Amazon Frogbit.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I had water lettuce in my outdoor pond. It is large when it gets going, I had plants that were nearly a foot across..

Frogbit is a smaller "version" in that it is similar in design but tropical and suited to an aquarium, but Frogbit does not grow easily for everyone, and it seems to have periods of die back. 

One of the best floating plants is Water Sprite [it's in our profiles, click on the shaded name], it will give the same general appearance. Many fish love this plant floating over them; they browse through the leaves and roots for food, and fry hide in them.


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## n2fish (Sep 18, 2011)

Yea - I actaully bought the last bunch of Water Sprite this morning from the fish store I mentioned. It's floating in my tank as we speak. :-D

I think I hijacked this thread...sorry


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

haha no worries! Enjoy your new plant  Post some pictures, too!


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## n2fish (Sep 18, 2011)

Jbrofish8 said:


> haha no worries! Enjoy your new plant  Post some pictures, too!


Will do! I just got this tank up and running two days ago so it's kinda bare but once I get it a little furthur along I'll snap a couple photos and post.


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

This may seem like a silly question, but I need to ask it.

I did my water change for last week on Sunday. I usually do them on Friday or Saturday but I was busy last week. Anyways, with these new fish having just arrived through the mail, should I hold out a few days on the water change to let them settle? I only had 4 fish in the tank and 1 snail, so I doubt a lot of waste has accumulated since last Sunday. What do you think?


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

Jbrofish8 said:


> This may seem like a silly question, but I need to ask it.
> 
> I did my water change for last week on Sunday. I usually do them on Friday or Saturday but I was busy last week. Anyways, with these new fish having just arrived through the mail, should I hold out a few days on the water change to let them settle? I only had 4 fish in the tank and 1 snail, so I doubt a lot of waste has accumulated since last Sunday. What do you think?


I think I would check the parameters and see if they are good if soo then I wouldn't worry about the water change and let the new fish settle in for a few days then do it.


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

parameters look great this morning so im going to hold off another day or so on the water change.

I did make a few changes to my scape last night, I ordered some crypt wendtii and i picked up some bacopa carolina to replace the stargrass who sadly did not survive the shipping.

I dont know how I feel about the crypt right now (bottom left). Its kind of all over the place, the problem is though, that I need a plant who can do well in lower light, because the floating plants shade that part of the tank. Maybe I'll like them more once the stems straighten up and aren't all bended from being shipped.

My moss arrives today, finally. It got lost in the mail the first time. I still dont know if I want to put in on the top of the cave, or on the wood in the right corner. Any thoughts?

OH and I also got a decent shot of my male apisto!


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## gmate (Sep 19, 2011)

Beautiful tank, Jbrofish. I am picking up a 30 gallon tank tomorrow. Unfortunately I have no place to set it up, so it's going to sit here until I can find a place. I'm upset that I'll have the tank but nothing to use it for :-(. We'll see. 

Good thread too, a lot of the discussion points you brought up with Bryon I've had in the past and, reminiscing, seem to answer some old questions for me. Best of luck


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

Thanks!!

That would kill me to have an empty tank sitting around.  Hopefully you can have it up and running soon!


My moss *finally* came in. Here's a few pictures of my new moss cave. I think I like it!

My glass looks really dirty >.< sorry about that. The water change is a few days overdue because of the new arrivals, I'll make sure I scrub it today!


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## n2fish (Sep 18, 2011)

Looks good!


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

Looking really good :-D


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

Well, Much to my surprise... Ive got eggs!!

I thought these juvenile apistos were too young to start breeding, but apparently not! I noticed one of my females tonight acting a little strange, her horizontal bar was faded and she would barely come out from under the piece large driftwood (forms a rather large cave underneath). Whenever my male would come near her, she would roll on to her side and show her belly to him and he would flare his fins.

I watched this for about a half hour before she finally let him into the cave and I watched them lay their eggs from the side of the tank that has a clear view into the cage. It seems like most of the visible eggs were eaten but she is still guarding the inside of the cave so perhaps there are still eggs in there?

One thing I noticed is that one of the other females came into the cave while they were spawning, which I thought was surprising. Ive never seen cichlids breed before but Ive read that apistos will guard the eggs very well. I was shocked that the other female just swam right in to the cave while they were doing the deed.

Anyways, it seems like they are done now, she is guarding the inside of the cave and the male is chasing away any of the other females who come near the wood. I managed to take a picture of a few eggs before they were eaten, you can see them hanging in the top of the side entrance to the cave! HOW EXCITING!

Btw, I have no bottom feeders in this tank (other than snails). And the only other fish are some tetra, what are the chances of any of the future spawns surviving? None of the tetra seem to be interested in any of the caves in the tank and mainly swim out in the open.


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

That's awesome! To answer your question if any eggs are left now or future spawns. Once there are fry swimming around I would think the tetra would get them if there isn't much places to hide from them. That's just my bought on it but by no means am I an expert so see what others say. BTW I love the way your tank looks!


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

Thank you!! 

My tank is very heavily planted, but maybe I should get some java moss for the driftwood cave, isnt it good for fry to hide in? Are there any other plants that are good for fry that will work with my low/moderate light req?


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

Jbrofish8 said:


> Thank you!!
> 
> My tank is very heavily planted, but maybe I should get some java moss for the driftwood cave, isnt it good for fry to hide in? Are there any other plants that are good for fry that will work with my low/moderate light req?


Having a heavily plant tank helps. Java moss is good for this and I am trying to think I know I have seen where certain plants were good for this but can't think of anymore right now.


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

I think camboba is good for it, but I have no space for camboba! !

I did a quick check this morning and she is still sitting in the cave guarding. Im going to assume there are eggs on the roof and walls of the cave that I cant see..I hope shes not spending energy guarding nothing.


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

Now that the light is on I've gotten a better look, I'm thinking that 2 of the females might have laid eggs yesterday. Both on the same piece of driftwood. One laid them under the wood, the other, I think, laid them inside one of the holes on the top side of the wood. I cant see into the hole, but she is VERY aggressive this morning and doesn't stray far from the hole in the wood.

The original egg layer is out an about more this morning, Im thinking her eggs may be gone now.

Heres a quick picture of the entire tank, everything is growing in nicely  I cant wait for the grass in the back to fill out more, its really beautiful and it sways in the light current. 

I added 8 Rummynose tetra last night too, I felt bad adding them once I got home and noticed all the egg laying, but they dont seem interested at all. They are really beautiful fish though.


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## jennesque (May 11, 2011)

The tank looks beautiful! Is that water lettuce floating? Whatever it is, I would assume the roots would help shelter any fry too.


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

I have quite the mixture of floating plants, haha. Some water lettuce, pennywort and some anacharis and thank you! 

Im going to be out of town from monday until thursday, my fish should be okay without being fed for this long, right?


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

Your tank is indeed very beautiful Jbro. Its filling out nicely. If the fish are healthy then they should be fine going that long without food. On Monday just feed them the normal amount you always do (if time allows) then it will only be 3 days without food which will/should be fine.


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## jennesque (May 11, 2011)

Yes, they'll be fine for a few days. Just make sure not to feed them extra as the Boredomb said, so there's no spike in the waste.
As long as your fish are already healthy and well fed, they'll be fine!


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## gmate (Sep 19, 2011)

Dude I've cover those eggs in moss ASAP, even if it's unsightly or doesn't go with the flow of how your tank is aquascaped. Live fry are so fun to watch and more fun to raise, you don't want to miss this opportunity. So jealous!


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

I plan on ordering some java moss as soon as I get back from my trip to california next week!

I have 4 females in the tank so Im sure this wont be the last time I see eggs.. I just had no idea they started so young!


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

Just thought Id post a quick update. The cichlids are still going at it.. but I have yet to see fry. I haven't lost a single fish since the initial loss of lemon tetra, which leads me to believe it was probably the fish and not my tank.

Heres a picture of my whole tank and my new favorite part of the tank, the lily's. I grew these from lily bulbs I bought at pet-smart. I didn't anticipate them to do much, but boy are they growing!

Also a few (bad) shots of a few of my fish.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

That is looking very nice. Good work I say.


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

Thanks again Byron.  That means a lot coming from you!


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

Jbro what are those reddish leave plants in the back of your tank?


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

Which side?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

Right side near the filter intake? I didn't even notice it on the left side but what are those? LoL


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

Btw I know I have said this before but I really do love the way your tank looks. Those pieces of driftwood are awesome and way you have the val(?) Coming up on that one side behind the driftwood looks good! Overall just a great looking tank!


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

The short ones are Tiger Lotus (I think) or Dwarf Lily. The tall ones behind the lily's are Rotala Indica. Those are also Cyprus Helferi not vals.  I really love the look of them though!

And thanks so much for the compliment! I really feel good about this tank, and I find myself lost for hours just looking at it. Amazing how something so subtle can keep you entertained for hours. haha!


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

Okay thanks wasnt sure what the Cyprus helferi was which is why there was a ? With vals with in the pic they kinda look like them. LoL I don't know how bright your lights are but on Rotala Indica if you have moderate lighting it might be a little better to separate then out just a little. I found out with mine they tend to grow better that way also the closer they get to the light the more color they get in the leaves. 

I thinking that was either tiger lotus or dwarf lily just wasn't sure. With those did you plant a bulb if so how long did it take to start growing?


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

I was worried about the rotala at first, but it seems to be growing pretty well now so Im afraid to move it. 

The lilys were bulbs, and I figured one of them would be a dud, so I planted them both and they both grew!


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

If the rotala indica is growing good the way it is no reason to move it. It maybe getting enough lighting that way. I only planted one bulb out of my package and I am afraid it is a dud. I still have the other one that I haven't planted yet but with my luck it will be a dud also. I am going to wait another couple of weeks if no growth then the sucker is coming out lol.


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

I started noticing small growths out of the bulb after about a week. I didnt see any leaves until about the 2&1/2 week mark, id say.

One did grow faster than the other, though. Make sure you have half of it buried in the substrate, not the whole thing.


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

I have just a little showing out of the substrate. The package said to bury it 3/4 of the way. I did that and after the first week I found it floating. So I replaced in the same spot just a little bit deeper. Still no growth out of it yet will wait a little longer and take it out and try the other bulb.


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

Ive heard of people placing the bulbs in a container with water in a window or well lit place to get them started. Maybe that would work for you, at least you could get your second bulb started while you wait to see if the first bulb is a dud.


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

Jbrofish8 said:


> Ive heard of people placing the bulbs in a container with water in a window or well lit place to get them started. Maybe that would work for you, at least you could get your second bulb started while you wait to see if the first bulb is a dud.



:hmm: well that's a thought. I might try that. Thanks Jbro!


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

Just wanted to post some updated shots of my male apisto, hes really getting colorful now.

I love the shot of him displaying for one of the females, hes a real stud!

Sorry for the poor quality.. they were taken with my phone.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Nice photos. And I like that substrate, probably asked what it is before but forgotten:roll:.


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

Thanks!

Its from substratesource.com. This one to be exact! substratesource - your #1 source for all things substrate


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## Only One Haze (Oct 4, 2011)

Hey JBro great tank! How are the apistos getting along with everyone else? May be looking at getting some myself.


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

Thanks!

They get along great! They leave everyone else alone, even during spawning. I have 1 male and 4 females and there is some light aggression among each other..but nothing terrible. They are really fun to watch also!

I recommend them!


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## Only One Haze (Oct 4, 2011)

Awesome, thanks! Do you mind sharing what you paid for them? Have an email in to my LFS and just wanted something to compare to.


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

I bought them online. I got them for $20 plus $16 for shipping. They are juveniles and I only paid for 4, they threw the 5th in for free.

Im sure adults would be more expensive, but these were literally less than an inch big when I got them.


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## Only One Haze (Oct 4, 2011)

Nice! Was that on aqubid? Do you still have the sellers name by chance? Sorry for all the questions.


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

Yep it was, and the seller is Mflash980. They do rams and apistos and they raise them around 7.4 pH so they are easily acclimated to most water.


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## Only One Haze (Oct 4, 2011)

I really appreciate it! Thanks again.


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

Just an update, my tank looks so sad since my massive crypt die off... most of them have not grown back much yet...keeping my fingers crossed.

My lily's are taking over, its one of my favorite parts of the tank, makes me want to pull up my crypt and plant another lily bulb and just have a wall of lily's! I think it might be a cool effect.

I also got rid of my water lettuce and got some pennywort.. loving it.

Heres what the tank looks like now:


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

Tank still looks good Jbro! Hopefully your crypts will start growing back. Also I am so jealous of your water lily I still can not get one to grow lol


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

Really?? Still no luck? I'll be honest I wasn't expecting my bulbs to do anything, but they were on sale so I gave em a shot. Maybe I just got lucky? I know if they dont grow I think there was an address on the back of the package that you can send them in to for an exchange.. if its the same maker as the ones I got from Petsmart you might try this?


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

LoL yeah still no luck. Yes it is the same supplier but I don't have the package anymore nor do I have the receipt. I thought about getting another package and try growing them but this time saving the package and receipt lol


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

yes dont give up!! I have faith you will have beautiful lily's soon! Give it another go.


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

I hope so I have the prefect spot for it in my tank. I might go out this weekend and get another package.

I got my second bulb in my snail tank now. When I first put it the tank (from the cup in the window) it looked it had a sprout coming out but the snails made quick work of that lol. So I don't know if it will grow but I haven't taken it out just out of curiosity.


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## Jbrofish8 (Jul 7, 2011)

Aww shoot! Those pesky snails...


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