# Emergency water change- what happened?



## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

As I type this my 75gl is draining, as I'm in the middle of doing an emergency water change. Did my routine water change yesterday, tonight I see my fish breathing incredibly rapidly, test the water parameters and have a .25 ppm nitrite reading, 0 ammonia and 10 ppm nitrate reading.
This is a cycled tank! What happened?? The only change was a brand new nozzle on the water change hose. I just checked my tap water- no nitrites in the tap. I'm really panicking as one species of dwarf cichlid in this tank can't be replaced easily as they are almost never available in the industry. I'm going to be gutted if I lose them.
Would there be something about a new nozzle that could cause this? Other than the huge water change I'm doing can anyone think of anything else I should be doing??


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

Crisis abated, for now. After a 60% water change all fish breathing normally, water tests show 0 ammonia, 0 nitrIte and 10 ppm nitrAte. What the heck happened?? I will not sleep easy tonight knowing there's the possibilty of another spike. I'll sleep six hours, instead of my usual eight, the sooner I can check on them in the am the better. 
The ONLY thing different was a new nozzle. Is it possible some sort of metal was released from this nozzle that caused a nitrIte reading?? I don't get it. :-?


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## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

Hey Kymmie, glad to hear the crisis is over. How frustrating to not know what caused it though. I don't know if a new nozzle would have caused that or not. May just be a coincidence. Hope you're able to get to the bottom of this. Keep us posted.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

aunt kymmie said:


> As I type this my 75gl is draining, as I'm in the middle of doing an emergency water change. Did my routine water change yesterday, tonight I see my fish breathing incredibly rapidly, test the water parameters and have a .25 ppm nitrite reading, 0 ammonia and 10 ppm nitrate reading.
> This is a cycled tank! What happened?? The only change was a brand new nozzle on the water change hose. I just checked my tap water- no nitrites in the tap. I'm really panicking as one species of dwarf cichlid in this tank can't be replaced easily as they are almost never available in the industry. I'm going to be gutted if I lose them.
> Would there be something about a new nozzle that could cause this? Other than the huge water change I'm doing can anyone think of anything else I should be doing??


 
I do not think the nozzle was/is cause of nitrite spike.It might be possible that recent die off of cyno, may have caused a small ammonia spike followed by nitrite spike.
Have you by chance cleaned the filter recently? Could dead organics from recent bout with Cyno have collected in the filter and perhaps had effect on biological filter in low oxygen area as compared to HOB filters? Low oxygen in filter such as might happen during power outage,,could starve bacteria and dissolved Organics that may get drawn into the filter in this instance(s) , along with dissolved solids ,might present problem.
Same thing could happen if filter media was perhaps cleaned a little too well. Sometimes we clean too much media at one time,vacccum the substrate,,clean the glass,srub decor. Is easy to lose beneficial bacteria and as a result see brief ammonia and or nitrites spikes as a result.
Also helps sometimes to think backwards,(I do this frequently according to girlfriend).
Proper amount of dechlorinator used at water change, no dead fish ,snails,etc. No dying plant matter,No chemicals introduced to the tank, No Cats, dogs, peeing in the tank, no well meaning nose picker's ,or significant other's helping to feed the fish.
I believe something temporarily, may have compromised the biological filter and might use double dose of Prime for next few water changes while adding some bacteria borrowed from another tank or sponge filter from another tank to maybe enhance the biological filter in the Discus tank.
Hope some of this helps. Lee.


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

If wasn't a moderator I'd be typing the worse curse words you've ever seen. Woke up to gasping fish (gasping hard enough to wake this sleeping old tired woman) and am doing another emergency water change. I've lost one Dension Barb and perhaps the last known female Dicrossus filamentosus I'll ever see again. 1077- this is not my discus tank, it's my 75gl community in my bedroom. I'm freaking out.


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

Water draining out now, getting ready to fill it with fresh, clean water. I woke up Wade and he started panicking too, screaming at me to get the fish out of the tank. I removed the fish I could catch to buckets, but now that they are "fine" they are all flipping out at being jammed into buckets together. (You don't think well at 2am) Should I put everyone back on the tank?

Water change was 8pm, nitrite spike at 2am?? Really? That fast? Six hours later?? Why????? Arrghh


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

Water change completed, two casualties so far. 
I put the fish back into the tank from the buckets. It has to be better to be in the tank than 20 fish crammed into a bucket?? Trying to figure out what could have happened....I'm coming up blank but will keep trying to figure out what's going on. I'm still on the verge of tears over losing the female Dicrossus filamentosus. *insert the worst strings of cuss words here*


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Did you happen to note another nitrite spike before you changed the water? (this A.M.)
Fish gasping sounds like oxygen depletion but I am at a loss to explain the nitrite spike other than what I already mentioned.(organics collecting in filter )
I might consider lowering water level to allow more surface agitation from spray bar on filter, or return from HOB filter.Plant's won't appreciate it long term ,but oxygen level's could be increased this way.
Could also purchase a small to medium size powerhead to create a ripple across the surface to aid in oxygen exchange but not allow CO2 albeit low levels,,to escape so easily. This might offer relief if oxygen depletion is contributing.
Sorry,wish I could offer more.:-(


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## Romad (Jun 28, 2009)

Oh no Kym. I'm so sorry to hear about your tank troubles.

The worst is not knowing what is causing it so you can get to the bottom of it. Hopefully putting more oxygen into the tank will help in the meantime.

Sending good fishy wishes your way. Hang in there and keep us posted. Hug ( )


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## iamgray (Jul 16, 2010)

Aw, kymmie... this made me go teary eyed. I wish I could offer some advice/ideas... instead all I can say is that I hope you find a solution soon.


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## SweetPoison (Jan 16, 2011)

Hey, Woman! I am so sorry, Kym! Good wishes your way for all the wet pets and hoping you find out what went down.

Once ~ I forgot to turn back on everything, after a wc with the discus ~ woke up at 2AM and all are lying on the tank bottom and my favorite was spinning around! It was horrible. He died, but I did an ER wc and they all popped up ~ Actually posted on SD during the whole crisis.

I cried the whole time. You go ahead and cry. We can swear here? I will swear for you!


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

AK- how deep is the substrate? it could have been the release of gases if its over 1.5 inches... if its deep mix it up a bit while removing the next batch of water that should help a lot. (be sure the fish are not in there BTW) another option is to look for missing members of the community or anything that could be leaching (dead plants, drift wood etc) 
just trying to think out loud here and see if any of this helps at all


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## Curt (Jan 13, 2011)

I am hardly an expert on any of this and while some of those items may be toxic it almost as if it seems the oxygen may be low. Even though your adding fresh tap water and while your readings may be high. They are not extreme enough to kill fish that quickly. I really do think the oxygen content of the water your using may be low if they are "gasping" for air. I have had tanks with elivated levels of all 3 of those items higher than you mentioned and never lost fish.

I could be wrong however just adding my 2 cents  Hope things get worked out for ya!


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

Curt you make a good point.. do you by chance have any suggestions for a solution? i am just asking so that when AK comes on she may have some ideas


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

I'm officially gutted. I woke up at 7am only to see the same thing happening all over again. Dennisons jumping so hard they were hitting the top of the hood, trying to escape. So far, three dead Dennisons and one (of only two females) dead Discrossus Filamentosus. 
After a 2am 60% water change I have another nitrite spike. I agree with Curt, I have had elevated levels for nitrite and never lost a fish before. Gasping for air = no oxygen. 
So, at 7am I do another 60% water change, it takes the nitrite level from .50 ppm to .25 ppm. I lowered the water level so water coming from spray bar is like a water fall. I added an airstone to the other side of the tank and a massive wall of bubbles is coming from that side. What else can I do??

At 7am I called Ron (my LFS guru and friend) and woke him from a sound sleep. I tell him what's happening and he asks if I can move the fish into my other tank (Discus tank). I tell him that if I do that it'll be tough to then catch them later to put them back in this tank. He says, "Better than the way you are removing them now, which is dead". Good point. I was only able to net out five Dennisons and one Columbian tetra. They are sitting in a bucket, filled with "Discus" tank water. Discus tank is 84 degrees, community tank is 78. Do I add them to the Discus tank or put them back in their tank, which so far, everyone in that tank is now comfortable, pecking the substrate for food. (They will not be getting any)
Should I add the five Dennisons and one tetra back to the tank, or put them in my 10gl QT tank for now?

Trying to work backwards. On Jan 3rd I did a water change, replacing the foam blocks in the Fluval. They were disgusting, like sludge, and couldn't get them rinsed in tank water, they were that dirty. 

On Jan 10th, basic water change, 50%.
On Jan 18th, basic water change, 50%.
On Jan 25th, basis water change, 50%, with new nozzle, and also added three handfuls of additional Eco-complete, to fill a "hole" that was left after I repositioned a Tiger Lotus and sword, who needed to "switch" spots, due to light/growth pattern. 

Tank has Eco-complete substrate, varying depths, 1" in some spots, 3" in other areas.

What I cried about this morning:


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

were it me..i would float and add them to the Discus tank for the simple fact that its running well and will have the room your fish need. 
also would take a net handle and poke around your substrate (pay particular attention to deep spots) and see if any bubbles get released if they do mix up the substrate a lit to get all of it out.....
lowering the level to get the water fall effect is a good idea. are you ok with it like this long tern? if not then perhaps the addition of a powerhead (with or with out the venturi feature) would be helpful for surface agitation....

i doubt your nozzel has anything to do with the current issues.....

as i am not familiure with eco-complete i will let other chime in here.... curriius however was there any cloudiness to the tank over the last 24-48 hours? i am wondering if an algae bloom could have sucked out so much oxygen?


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

bearwithfish said:


> were it me..i would float and add them to the Discus tank for the simple fact that its running well and will have the room your fish need.
> also would take a net handle and poke around your substrate (pay particular attention to deep spots) and see if any bubbles get released if they do mix up the substrate a lit to get all of it out.....
> lowering the level to get the water fall effect is a good idea. are you ok with it like this long tern? if not then perhaps the addition of a powerhead (with or with out the venturi feature) would be helpful for surface agitation....
> 
> ...


No cloudiness at all, will go poke around the substrate now. Long term I'd never be able to sleep in my bedroom again for all the noise the tank is now making. It sounds like Niagra Falls in my room right now. Not familiar with a powerhead. Bummer is that it's a planted tank and all that surface agitation will not make the plants happy, but the fish are first and foremost. I am so bummed out right now. 

Bear: info on Eco:
Eco-Complete description: 
CaribSea Eco-Complete Planted Aquarium Substrate: Contains Iron, Calcium, Magnesium, Potassium, Sulfer plus over 25 other elements to nourish your aquatic plants. Caribsea Eco-Complete Planted Aquarium Substrate contains all the mineral nutrients needed for luxuriant aquatic plant growth without nuisance algae! The Caribsea Eco-Complete Planted Aquarium Substrate is Iron rich which eliminates the need for laterite and is also Nitrate and carbonate free which will not increase pH or carbonate hardness. There is no artificial dye, paint or chemical coating because it's real!

The CaribSea Eco-Complete Planted Aquarium Substrate also contains live Heterotrophic Bacteria to rapidly convert fish waste into natural food for your aquatic plants. The Caribsea Eco-Complete Planted Aquarium Substrate also creates a natural biological balance which makes cycling in a new aquarium faster and safer. With it's unsurpassed MacroPorosity for healthy roots and bacterial efficieny - you would have to buy 4 bags of ordinary gravel to equal the surface are of this one bag of Caribsea Eco-Complete Planted Aquarium Substrate!


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

ok a few things here the bio balance to help the cycle faster is bacteria.. next is this looks like something that could have an expiration date on it.. does it? is it expired? was it stored safely with no way anyone or anything could have tainted it? next 

power heads are used to create motion in the tank and if directed at the surface will create a wavelike motion that assists with gas exchange...now as for the plants being unhappy they are from water and water moves in nature so in time they will grow stronger and deal with it....


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

bearwithfish said:


> ok a few things here the bio balance to help the cycle faster is bacteria.. next is this looks like something that could have an expiration date on it.. does it? is it expired? was it stored safely with no way anyone or anything could have tainted it? next
> 
> power heads are used to create motion in the tank and if directed at the surface will create a wavelike motion that assists with gas exchange...now as for the plants being unhappy they are from water and water moves in nature so in time they will grow stronger and deal with it....


The Eco was stored safely, I do not see an expiration date (bag is only a month old) and I even added additional handfuls of this to my Discus tank a few weeks back, with no problem.

I will look into getting a powerhead. This tank houses loaches and barbs, all who prefer lots of water movement. Screw the plants.


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

Also wanted to add one more pic. These are of the nitrite testing. Left, tap water reading, middle-taken before water change, right-taken after 60% water change. The furthest right is my nitrate reading, which is slight, but measurable. Just trying to put everything out there in case somewhere a cause comes to mind for my troubles. Is this amount of a spike enough to cause such trouble for my fish, or are we still thinking oxygen depletion???


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## Romad (Jun 28, 2009)

So sad    

Maybe you lost too much of your bacteria replacing all of the pads at once? 

Is is possible you had a spike since then and was unaware until the nitrites were present??


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## Romad (Jun 28, 2009)

aunt kymmie said:


> Also wanted to add one more pic. These are of the nitrite testing. Left, tap water reading, middle-taken before water change, right-taken after 60% water change. The furthest right is my nitrate reading, which is slight, but measurable. Just trying to put everything out there in case somewhere a cause comes to mind for my troubles. Is this amount of a spike enough to cause such trouble for my fish, or are we still thinking oxygen depletion???


 
Isn't oxygen depletion what nitrIte does? My guess would be oxygen depletion because of the nitrIte.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

I might try and borrow some filter material and or a cup of substrate from discus tank and add the borrowed filter material or gravel to the 75 gallon.Keep the water level as is for now and perhaps perform test every eight to ten hours for ammonia or nitrites.
Would in the future,,back flush the canister filter once a month and swish foam blocks around as well.
Oxygen levels in a sealed canister filter could be reduced considerably if organic solids or dissolved organics begin clogging the filter media. Bacteria need oxygen rich water passing over them to thrive.
Is one reason why HOB filters sometimes develop bacteria more quickly and tanks with these type filter's may cycle a bit quicker, filter media is exposed to more oxygen.
I personally don't buy the hype that canisters only need cleaning every three months,six months.
Would as mentioned earlier..consider a powerhead such as Koralia ll and place it so the flow from this powerhead is just below the surface of the water creating a rippling effect which will help with oxygen exchange.
Would look to see that filter hoses are clean and are not in a bind anywhere.
Might consider purchasing some more biological media ceramic,etc and once every couple months,remove half of the biological media from the canister and replace it with new while cleaning that which you remove with mild bleach/water solution to have ready for next time.
hope some of this helps and i am sorry for the loss of your fishes.:-(


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

1077 said:


> I might try and borrow some filter material and or a cup of substrate from discus tank and add the borrowed filter material or gravel to the 75 gallon.Keep the water level as is for now and perhaps perform test every eight to ten hours for ammonia or nitrites.
> Would in the future,,back flush the canister filter once a month and swish foam blocks around as well.
> Oxygen levels in a sealed canister filter could be reduced considerably if organic solids or dissolved organics begin clogging the filter media. Bacteria need oxygen rich water passing over them to thrive.
> Is one reason why HOB filters sometimes develop bacteria more quickly and tanks with these type filter's may cycle a bit quicker, filter media is exposed to more oxygen.
> ...


I bought the hype that the canisters didn't need to be cleaned as often, and when I did clean it I replaced all foam blocks. Those foam blocks looked black, there went all my bio. I have to assume this caused the tank to recycle, all my fault. Leave tank running as it is now, waterfalls and air bubbles, will get a powerhead and more ceramic media today. 
Will check hoses and also grab handfuls of substrate from discus tank. 

How do you back flush a Fluval 405??


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

Foam blocks were replaced back on Jan 3. Nearly three plus weeks later the spike?? Wouldn't it have happened much sooner??


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

a typical cycle can be anywhere from 2 to 6 weeks.... it is a possibility.....


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## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

There is no such thing as a coincidence- You used the nozzle, I say, blame the nozzle.

If mechanical tools like nozzles aren't meant for food or human potable water use, there can be all kinds of chemicals, dust, etc.
Wouldn't suprise me if it was a metal of some sort (copper comes to mind) in dust form from the machining.

Could have been traces of oil used in the machining

could have been anti-mildew treatment they did to the nozzle purposefully.


Unfortunately, if I am right, then the only solution is to break the entire tank down, rinse everything thoroughly with freshwater, and refill. (can move the canister to another tank once you (quickly!) rinse the media real well, so more bacteria won't die.)

I hope I'm wrong, but no matter the problem, my treatment would likely fix the problem. (The chemicals/metals could have easily killed some of the bacteria if my theory is right)


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

redchigh said:


> There is no such thing as a coincidence- You used the nozzle, I say, blame the nozzle.
> 
> If mechanical tools like nozzles aren't meant for food or human potable water use, there can be all kinds of chemicals, dust, etc.
> Wouldn't suprise me if it was a metal of some sort (copper comes to mind) in dust form from the machining.
> ...


This brand/make/model is the same one I use for my discus tank. I was tired of switching it out every time I did water changes so I bought another one for use on my 75gl, so each tank would have their own. I hope you're not right..breaking down the tank, oh noooooo. That would be such a nightmare but if I HAD to do it I would, but I don't want to. :-(


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

aunt kymmie said:


> I bought the hype that the canisters didn't need to be cleaned as often, and when I did clean it I replaced all foam blocks. Those foam blocks looked black, there went all my bio. I have to assume this caused the tank to recycle, all my fault. Leave tank running as it is now, waterfalls and air bubbles, will get a powerhead and more ceramic media today.
> Will check hoses and also grab handfuls of substrate from discus tank.
> 
> How do you back flush a Fluval 405??


 
I have an eheim 2217 on 80 gallon tank with plant's and aprox 75 small tetra's ,barbs,pencilfish,cory's,whiteclouds,etc.
I backflush the canister by closing the quick connects and then unhooking the filter from the hoses going back to the tank. I then take the canister to the sink in the kitchen and place a small plastic dish pan in the sink. I then open the top and bottom valves on canister and let the water from canister drain into the dish pan. I then open the top of canister and pour the water just collected in dish pan back into the filter and it once again runs out of bottom drain but thisd time the water goes down the drain.
You could use two dish pans and repeat the process a few times taking care to only pour aquarium water through the filter.(clean the impeller at this time also)
I also clean or replace mechanical portion of the media at this time and then close the valves.I then just take the filter back to the cabinet,hook the hoses back up,open the valves,and the filter usually start's back up after a couple minutes to re-fill.
At three months depending on fish load and how dirty biological media looks,,I pull half and replace it with new.
Same process as before ,only this time,,I dump the biological media into the plastic dishpan that water from canister was drained into after backflushing the filter.
Hope this makes sense.


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## Curt (Jan 13, 2011)

Also until you find out whats going on with your water I would not do a water change on your other tank. I have a feeling due to low oxygen or whatever issue may be occurring it soudns like there is with the "NEW" water and not the tank. 

This all seemed to start when the water was changed the first time. Perhaps something in the tap water changed..


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

aunt kymmie said:


> Foam blocks were replaced back on Jan 3. Nearly three plus weeks later the spike?? Wouldn't it have happened much sooner??


 
Wished I could answer that. Remember what Ty's signature used to say?'The only thigs that happen quickly in the aquarium, are bad things".
Whose to say that condition wasn't there before (nitrites,) but went unnoticed?


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## Curt (Jan 13, 2011)

I deal with problem resolution with my work and deal with some of the most complex issues. I may not be a expert in tank care. I have had a 55g 10 years ago and my 20g now. One thing is for suer is I have had fish in test results much higher than that. It sounds like the new water is contaminated.

Its the only thing that makes sense since it is a established tank.

This was from taking in all the factors you provided about what has occurred. I highly doubt the connection has anything to do with it. For the volume of water even if there were "dust" of any kind it would be unlikely in a tank that large to have that strong of an effect.


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

Curt said:


> I deal with problem resolution with my work and deal with some of the most complex issues. I may not be a expert in tank care. I have had a 55g 10 years ago and my 20g now. One thing is for suer is I have had fish in test results much higher than that. It sounds like the new water is contaminated.
> 
> Its the only thing that makes sense since it is a established tank.
> 
> This was from taking in all the factors you provided about what has occurred. I highly doubt the connection has anything to do with it. For the volume of water even if there were "dust" of any kind it would be unlikely in a tank that large to have that strong of an effect.


Great, today is Discus tank water change day. When I test out of the tap the readings are fine. If there was no oxygen in the tap wouldn't I see a reading for ammonia/nitrites out of the tap??
When I did the two emergency water changes fish were fine for approx. five to six hours and then nitrite spike happens. To me, it sounds like an uncycled tank. How the heck could my tap water be contaminated?? I know it could but how??


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

1077 said:


> Wished I could answer that. Remember what Ty's signature used to say?'The only thigs that happen quickly in the aquarium, are bad things".
> Whose to say that condition wasn't there before (nitrites,) but went unnoticed?


Yep, your signature line and Ty's are equally right on. It's possible on the nitrites since I hadn't tested for that on this tank in awhile, always testing for ammonia though. I can't say why I neglected to test for nitrites. Up until last night tank has been great so I suppose I figured there was no need. 

On another note, I just drove down the street to pick up some Stability from the LFS. 
Big sign up, "Buliding for rent", business is gone. :-( 
Ron works down at the LFS in San Diego (30 miles from my house) so I may end up running down there later today to get some Stability. I'll wait until 1pm, as that will mark six hours since last water change and make sure the fish are still doing ok and that the nitrite hasn't climbed. With my luck I'll be doing another water change at 1pm.


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## Curt (Jan 13, 2011)

aunt kymmie said:


> Great, today is Discus tank water change day. When I test out of the tap the readings are fine. If there was no oxygen in the tap wouldn't I see a reading for ammonia/nitrites out of the tap??
> When I did the two emergency water changes fish were fine for approx. five to six hours and then nitrite spike happens. To me, it sounds like an uncycled tank. How the heck could my tap water be contaminated?? I know it could but how??



Depending on your source water their could be minerals in the water when no longer under pressure causes the oxygen depletion. 

For example the water here in Orlando is extremely hard there are all sorts of things that can get stirred up. There are times when the water is not as hard and there is less in it.

There are a lot of things in public water that our test kits dont pick up on. There could be a contaminant that got stirred up in your local water supply. It could be temp. 

I could be completely wrong as well  Iit just sounds like there could be a issue with the source water. If your tests were showing higher then I would be more concerned. While those items can be toxic to fish. The fish are usually a bit more tolerant for such a short period.

I would just hate to be right and you do the water change on the other tank and then have the same issue.

The other thing might be perhaps they treated more of the local water with chlorine this can fluctuate quite a bit depending on where the source water comes from.


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## Calmwaters (Sep 2, 2009)

Kymmie I have no suggestions just wanted to offer my support. I hope you can figure out whats going on.


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## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

Wow, sorry to hear you're still having problems. What a nightmare! Between this and the cyano you have your hands full, don't you girl! Hope you get to the bottom of it.


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

jeaninel said:


> Wow, sorry to hear you're still having problems. What a nightmare! Between this and the cyano you have your hands full, don't you girl! Hope you get to the bottom of it.


LOL, it's enough to make one toss their hands up and say, "Okay, I give up. Done, finished, over it".


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## SweetPoison (Jan 16, 2011)




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## Calmwaters (Sep 2, 2009)

Sweetpoison I love the the hug thing! Aunt Kymmie I know you said you got the sam kind of nozzle you have for the discus tank but next time you change the water why not do it with the old nozzle that would rule out maybe some kind of defect in the nozzle.


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

Awww, thanks for the hug, Marie!!

Amanda, on the second water change I did use my "discus" nozzle and it didn't make a difference. 
I just got back from the LFS with a couple of bottles of Stability. Before adding the stability I checked the tank's water parameters. Now I'm getting zero for ammonia & nitrite, and 5 ppm for nitrate. (I performed each test twice, just to be sure) The fish look fine and don't seem to be bothered by all the air bubbles and huge water movement. They are poking the substrate for food but I'm not even considering feeding them until tomorrow.


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## Curt (Jan 13, 2011)

Awesome sounds good
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Calmwaters (Sep 2, 2009)

Wow this is weird well hopefully they will be okay this time around. Good luck!


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

Curt said:


> Awesome sounds good
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, but it still doesn't tell me "why did this happen". Curt, do you think I should call the city to come out to test the water? I had to do that one time before when I woke up to a tank of suffocating fish. That was many months ago, this same tank! (Ok, that's not a coincidence, is it?)
I just tried searching for that thread and can't find it. I wanted to compare notes. 

That incident was related to ammonia coming out of the tap. Right when I first started keeping fish I had tested my tap water, ammonia was zero so I thought, "good", and never tested it again. What was once always zero out of the tap was suddenly .50 ppm. Based on the tests the city did, they said .50 "within acceptable" levels. They tested for toxicity back then also, but had nothing to report "of any signifigance". Since then I have been using double the dose of Prime at water change time, and the .50 out of the tap hasn't been a problem. 

Do I/ should I call the city? I hate to be a pain, drag them out here and they find nothing and it's something I'm doing but can't figure out.


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## Calmwaters (Sep 2, 2009)

I would say if it keeps happening call them that's one of the reasons we pay taxes and water bills so they are there when we need them.


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## SweetPoison (Jan 16, 2011)

aunt kymmie said:


> Do I/ should I call the city? I hate to be a pain, drag them out here and they find nothing and it's something I'm doing but can't figure out.


Absolutely! Al @ Simply taught me that. I think we called the water dept and they would give us a print out of all the changes that they made. They are, surprisingly, pretty honest. 

They will tell you if they did anything dif to your water, K!

Do it.


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## Curt (Jan 13, 2011)

aunt kymmie said:


> Yes, but it still doesn't tell me "why did this happen". Curt, do you think I should call the city to come out to test the water? I had to do that one time before when I woke up to a tank of suffocating fish. That was many months ago, this same tank! (Ok, that's not a coincidence, is it?)
> I just tried searching for that thread and can't find it. I wanted to compare notes.
> 
> That incident was related to ammonia coming out of the tap. Right when I first started keeping fish I had tested my tap water, ammonia was zero so I thought, "good", and never tested it again. What was once always zero out of the tap was suddenly .50 ppm. Based on the tests the city did, they said .50 "within acceptable" levels. They tested for toxicity back then also, but had nothing to report "of any signifigance". Since then I have been using double the dose of Prime at water change time, and the .50 out of the tap hasn't been a problem.
> ...




Hmm if it continues to be an issue I would think so. The thing about city water is it can change by the day. Shoot by the minute. I used to have great water in the city from Detroit of all places. Had one of the best purification systems out there. (thats where aquafina comes from) one of the dirtiest rivers in america... turned pure. its kinda scary. Yet down in here in Florida you never know what your going to get. If they dont charge for it it may be worth having them run a test so you have an idea of what your water parms are. also if indeed its contaminated. If they charge to come out perhaps its not necessary. Although have you tried placing your tap water in a bucket by itself for 24 hours with a airstone and then running a test. This will give you better results of your tap water after it has had a chance to be out in the open. perhaps the elevated levels are there.


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## Curt (Jan 13, 2011)

One last thing... is your house a older house with older pluming? Some of the older pipes can change the water chemistry.


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

Curt said:


> One last thing... is your house a older house with older pluming? Some of the older pipes can change the water chemistry.


Built in 1972, pipes replaced in 1995.


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## Curt (Jan 13, 2011)

aunt kymmie said:


> Built in 1972, pipes replaced in 1995.


Well not the pipes then... (ahhhh running out of ideas!) lol


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

Curt said:


> Well not the pipes then... (ahhhh running out of ideas!) lol


Me too! I know everyone will think this is nuts but I did my water change on the discus tank today. I talked with Ron (LFS guru) and he's convinced it's something with the 75gl tank, and not my water source. Ron and I share the same county water source. He is so firm in this belief that if something went wrong he said he'd replace every fish in the discus tank. 

So far all discus are perfect, water params are perfect, so I think Ron may be right. He can't come up with what's wrong with the tank but he's convinced it's the tank. Aren't I going to be whacking myself in the head with a hammer if I wake up to struggling or dead discus.


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## tanker (Mar 13, 2010)

Could adding the eco-complete have something to do with it? Adding additional "whatever's-in-it" to the tank when you'd lost bacteria from replacing your filter media might have put things out of whack?

The first review on here says to wait before adding "sensitive items" Were your fish sensitive? Does this mean anything to anyone? 

Eco-Complete Plant Substrate

I'm so sorry you've lost your fish and had to deal with such a horrible stressful event.


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## eileen (Feb 24, 2009)

Kym what a nightmare. I just was reading about all the problems you are having. Sorry to hear about your fish losses. I think it might have been changing out that dirty filter block as it was loaded with good bacteria. Replaceing that and the 50% water change will make any tank spike. I read somewhere that you should never change your water the same day you change your filter pads. I alternate my dirty pads. I replace 1 in the filter and move the old one in front. It could be anything but hang in there. I hope everything gets better for you and your remaining fish recover.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

aunt kymmie said:


> Yes, but it still doesn't tell me "why did this happen". Curt, do you think I should call the city to come out to test the water? I had to do that one time before when I woke up to a tank of suffocating fish. That was many months ago, this same tank! (Ok, that's not a coincidence, is it?)
> I just tried searching for that thread and can't find it. I wanted to compare notes.
> 
> That incident was related to ammonia coming out of the tap. Right when I first started keeping fish I had tested my tap water, ammonia was zero so I thought, "good", and never tested it again. What was once always zero out of the tap was suddenly .50 ppm. Based on the tests the city did, they said .50 "within acceptable" levels. They tested for toxicity back then also, but had nothing to report "of any signifigance". Since then I have been using double the dose of Prime at water change time, and the .50 out of the tap hasn't been a problem.
> ...


 
Call em and ask them if they have increased chlorine,chloramines at treatment plant.(happens here twice a year)
As you have noted,, Prime will detoxify chlorine,chloramines,and ammonia from tap long enough for biological
filter,bacteria to process.
If bacterial activity has been compromised,interrupted,then lowl levels of toxins could be result until such time as bacteria can adapt to the level's present.


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## Plumkin (Jan 24, 2011)

I hope your troubles will be fixed soon and NOTHING HAPPEN to those gorgeous discus I LOVE THEM!


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## SweetPoison (Jan 16, 2011)

K ~ I just recalled how we use to get our current water status when I was on Simply. We went to our city's website and you just request there. It was hard to read though ~ Al would read mine.


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## Curt (Jan 13, 2011)

aunt kymmie said:


> Me too! I know everyone will think this is nuts but I did my water change on the discus tank today. I talked with Ron (LFS guru) and he's convinced it's something with the 75gl tank, and not my water source. Ron and I share the same county water source. He is so firm in this belief that if something went wrong he said he'd replace every fish in the discus tank.
> 
> So far all discus are perfect, water params are perfect, so I think Ron may be right. He can't come up with what's wrong with the tank but he's convinced it's the tank. Aren't I going to be whacking myself in the head with a hammer if I wake up to struggling or dead discus.



Lets hope this is the case I would rather be more cautious than not.


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

This morning's update: My discus are perfectly fine and my blues are in the middle of spawning as I type this, so....it's my tank and NOT the water. 

1077: Talked with the city's water dept this am and they tell me nothing has been changed in over six months, as far as our water supply. (six months ago is exactly when I experienced a prior water "problem")
Eileen: I did do a massive water change the same day I changed out the filter pads. 
Tanker: I only added two handfuls of Eco (rinsed very well) to a tank that already has Eco as its substrate, none of my fish in this tank are considered "sensitive", other than the otos.

The other thing I thought of is that I can account for every fish in this tank other than the otos. I have about fifteen of them in there and can never count more than 10 at a time. The tank is heavily planted so for me to find them all is impossible. Is it possible one perished somewhere that I couldn't see it and its decaying body caused this spike? Maybe a dead oto, at the same time I changed out the filter pads?? 

I tested the tank's water params this morning: zero for nitrite and ammonia, 10 ppm for nitrates. I slept in my room last night with ear plugs and still could hear all that extra "stuff" I did yesterday, lowering of the water level so the spray bar was gushing, the added air pump (it's huge) with all that vibrating (it was on a towel for noise reduction) and all those bubbles. 

Do you think I can now stop with all this extra air circulation or continue it for a few more days, to play it safe??


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## Calmwaters (Sep 2, 2009)

I would maybe turn the extra air off early in the am then check the water before you go to bed to see if there has been any changes if no changes then let it be if even a slight change turn the air back on for a few more days.


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## Curt (Jan 13, 2011)

Calmwaters said:


> I would maybe turn the extra air off early in the am then check the water before you go to bed to see if there has been any changes if no changes then let it be if even a slight change turn the air back on for a few more days.


agreed


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

Thanks, Curt & Amanda, that's just what I'll do. 
Oh, and just to add to my tanks woes, I just noticed that my 10 gl hospital tank is leaking all around the base of the tank. When it rain, it pours! LOL


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

but since its an empty tank it will be an easy fix..... should be back in operation in 24-48 hours.... seals are easy


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

bearwithfish said:


> but since its an empty tank it will be an easy fix..... should be back in operation in 24-48 hours.... seals are easy


You are so very right, my friend. Seals?? The only seals I know are down on the beach. I'll be stopping by the LFS and buying a new one. Knowing me as you do, you know I'm no DIY kinda gal and Wade is out of town, lol.


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## bearwithfish (Sep 29, 2009)

LOL you can do it either way.....


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## Curt (Jan 13, 2011)

LOL!!! Are you testing murphy's law? Seriously!


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## Calmwaters (Sep 2, 2009)

Don't worry Kymmie it will get better and I am no do it yourselfer either. I get ideas sometimes but have no idea how to get them from my head to being something real. LOL


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Wow...so sorry this happened...I just found your post and after reading...my first thought...pH swing-osmotic shock.....acute acidosis/alkalosis both can present S/S gasping darting, jumping generally trying to get out of the water and death-but so can poison, heavy metals...sometimes you will see edema/bloat/drospy symptom and gill damage hypoxia/gills can sometimes look grey in color...

This can happen in planted tanks naturally as the tank matures and all the organic matter goes through the normal decomp and make the water more acid...you make a big water change and you can have a big swing in usually both nitrate and pH and the tank crashes and you will see the behavior you described and nitrite/ammonia spikes

My other thought was a toxin or heavy metal

What was the pH before the water change, your source water pH, source water pH after 24h de-gas, tank water pH now

Well water, R/O water or city water

Water temp and did you check your heater and make sure it is not broken and it is a stray volt causing all of this......I had this happen once when I forgot to unplug my heater-it cracked when I filled the tank up and I didn't know it until all the fish started trying to jump out and dying....what a mess......

Hope you figure this out.....


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## jbonez (Dec 30, 2010)

thank god all is well good luck kymmie


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

Oldfisfishlady- all good ideas. Ph is same in and as going out, normally, but I'm not sure on this tank as I didn't test it prior as I've never had this happen before. I checked my heater, good to go. 
Did the discus water change the same day, all discus great. 
I think your idea of: 

"This can happen in planted tanks naturally as the tank matures and all the organic matter goes through the normal decomp and make the water more acid...you make a big water change and you can have a big swing in usually both nitrate and pH and the tank crashes and you will see the behavior you described and nitrite/ammonia spikes" 

totally fits and that's what I'm settling on as the reason. The tank is heavily planted, I let the decomposed leaves stay in the tank, as I have dwarf cichlids who prefer that type of set up for searching for food, spawning under the leaves. I didn't check the ph prior to the big water change. In the future I will be checking ph prior to water changes, and do much smaller water changes should I see a PH discrepany. 

Thank you to EVERYONE who contributed to this thread. I so appreciate all of your input, I consider each and everyone of you a great friend in my time of need. You guys ROCK!!


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## Curt (Jan 13, 2011)

aunt kymmie said:


> Oldfisfishlady- all good ideas. Ph is same in and as going out, normally, but I'm not sure on this tank as I didn't test it prior as I've never had this happen before. I checked my heater, good to go.
> Did the discus water change the same day, all discus great.
> I think your idea of:
> 
> ...


I know this sounds a bit overboard but I test my water before and after I do a water change just to see how the change affected everything.


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## SweetPoison (Jan 16, 2011)

aunt kymmie said:


> Oh, and just to add to my tanks woes, I just noticed that my 10 gl hospital tank is leaking all around the base of the tank. When it rain, it pours! LOL



So did things happen in threes, for you, during this incident?


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Oldfishlady said:


> Wow...so sorry this happened...I just found your post and after reading...my first thought...pH swing-osmotic shock.....acute acidosis/alkalosis both can present S/S gasping darting, jumping generally trying to get out of the water and death-but so can poison, heavy metals...sometimes you will see edema/bloat/drospy symptom and gill damage hypoxia/gills can sometimes look grey in color...
> 
> This can happen in planted tanks naturally as the tank matures and all the organic matter goes through the normal decomp and make the water more acid...you make a big water change and you can have a big swing in usually both nitrate and pH and the tank crashes and you will see the behavior you described and nitrite/ammonia spikes
> 
> ...


I have expierienced this scenario and have heard of other's who expierienced similar but in most cases,,,water changes have been ignored for sometime.
With regular water changes,this scenario does not happen often unless one has very soft water to begin with.


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

Curt said:


> I know this sounds a bit overboard but I test my water before and after I do a water change just to see how the change affected everything.


Not overboard at all. I do this for my discus tank, but none of the other ones. 
I guess I'm guilty of favortism. 

1077- That would make sense but I don't miss weekly water changes. I may never truly know what happended, only that I never want it to happen again! It was terrible to witness fish suffering to the extreme that they did. I'm sure most of them have had their life spans cut by half due to the trauma.


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## Curt (Jan 13, 2011)

aunt kymmie said:


> Not overboard at all. I do this for my discus tank, but none of the other ones.
> I guess I'm guilty of favortism.
> 
> 1077- That would make sense but I don't miss weekly water changes. I may never truly know what happended, only that I never want it to happen again! It was terrible to witness fish suffering to the extreme that they did. I'm sure most of them have had their life spans cut by half due to the trauma.


Hmmm Favoritism... I wonder... :err: LOL


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

Curt said:


> Hmmm Favoritism... I wonder... :err: LOL


LMAO! :lol:


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## Calmwaters (Sep 2, 2009)

Not favoritism just smart because discus are more delicate. LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## leogtr (Jan 19, 2011)

aunt kymmie said:


> This morning's update: My discus are perfectly fine and my blues are in the middle of spawning as I type this, so....it's my tank and NOT the water.
> 
> 1077: Talked with the city's water dept this am and they tell me nothing has been changed in over six months, as far as our water supply. (six months ago is exactly when I experienced a prior water "problem")
> Eileen: I did do a massive water change the same day I changed out the filter pads.
> ...


hello! I just read everything that went down..thats crazy I would be freaking out because I am a HUGE animal lover and if my fish were dying and stressed I would be so horribly devastated. 

have you ever seen the BIO-wheel filters? I exchanged the one I had for the other I was using( I noticed that the water was overflowing and it didnt go through the filter cartridge) when I exchanged it I was recommended the Marineland Penguin. there are many different sizes and they all have BIO-wheels. The large ones have four cartridges; two rows and 2 colunms on each side. It is recommended in the instructions that when you change them that you take out the ones in the back row and put the ones in the front row in the back row so the water hits those first(those that were in front are not too filthy and have good bacteria) then put new ones in the front row and when its time to change them again repeat the proccess. The BIO wheel is never changed (unless it breaks but its not likely)because it holds most of the beneficial bacteria. I think something like that can be reallyreally helpful in your large 75 gallon tank. 

here this is one of them. You probably have seen them but I just wanted to let you know since its such a neat fuction to have in a filter

this is the Marineland The Emperor 400. It works for aquariums up to 80 gallons

http://www.marineandreef.com/v/vspfiles/V4_Backup/other_pics/marineland_emperor400_diagram.jpg

like I said I just wanted to share it because its so neat you know? :neutral:


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## Tomsk (Mar 4, 2010)

I have only just seen this thread,sorry to hear about your losses and I hope the problem is found.this is a terrible thing to happen to anyone especially someone who loves their fish as much as you.

Tomsk


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## LisaC144 (Oct 22, 2009)

WHEW, Kym! I was off the forum all week while my brother was visiting from your neck of the woods and just came across your thread. Is everything back to normal now? No other losses? The break-down of organics seems to fit the bill. I used Eco-complete in my 55g and currently use it in my 125g and 5g never with any problems. I don't think it was that. As for the filter media, because my tank is heavily planted and well established, I go ahead and rinse all media in tap water when cleaning the filter. Byron told me it was safe and he always does that way. Although I was nervous doing that the first time, I've never had a problem with spikes. I don't think rinsing your pads caused this issue either. 

I hope things are better today. Keep us all posted. We're thinking of you!


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

LisaC144 said:


> WHEW, Kym! I was off the forum all week while my brother was visiting from your neck of the woods and just came across your thread. Is everything back to normal now? No other losses? The break-down of organics seems to fit the bill. I used Eco-complete in my 55g and currently use it in my 125g and 5g never with any problems. I don't think it was that. As for the filter media, because my tank is heavily planted and well established, I go ahead and rinse all media in tap water when cleaning the filter. Byron told me it was safe and he always does that way. Although I was nervous doing that the first time, I've never had a problem with spikes. I don't think rinsing your pads caused this issue either.
> 
> I hope things are better today. Keep us all posted. We're thinking of you!


Yep, it was a nightmare, all right. It's back to normal as of right now but I'm still walking on eggshells around this tank. Losing that female Dicrossus REALLY bummed me out. Not that losing the barbs was any easier, but that female will be REALLY hard to replace, if I'm ever even able to. 
You'd think a heavily planted tank that has been established for seven months wouldn't have this happen. This tank is so heavily planted I would think I could run it without a filter! 
Knowing me I'm sure you can picture Wade and I screaming at each other at 2am, tossing around hoses, buckets, nets and water conditioner. It was pure drama. :argue: 

I never knew how much he actually cared about my fish until this disaster happened. :love2:


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## Curt (Jan 13, 2011)

Good to hear things are under control. When I saw you posted here again im not going to lie... I thought there was another issue! I was like ohhhh noooooo.


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## LisaC144 (Oct 22, 2009)

Awww come on, Kym. He may act all hard and tough on the outside, but we really know he's a real softy on the inside. Remember, he's the one that suggested making your closet smaller to fit that 180g in there, right? ;-)


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

LisaC144 said:


> Awww come on, Kym. He may act all hard and tough on the outside, but we really know he's a real softy on the inside. Remember, he's the one that suggested making your closet smaller to fit that 180g in there, right? ;-)


You are so very right! I still haven't come across a good deal on a 180 though. Still looking. I wish there was a way to put an alert on craigslist, so that when a 180 does come along I'll see it before anyone else does, lol. 

I just found a seller on aquabid who has Dicrossus available. I may bite the bullet and order. The only problem is he can't guarantee me a female. They are amazingly beautiful, I wish I could get a nice clear picture of mine to post. No wonder I cried when I lost my female.


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## LisaC144 (Oct 22, 2009)

You just need to stalk Craigslist 3 times a day, minimum, until you find one. Make it your full-time job ;-)

How is your 75g tank doing today?


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

LisaC144 said:


> You just need to stalk Craigslist 3 times a day, minimum, until you find one. Make it your full-time job ;-)
> 
> How is your 75g tank doing today?


 
LOL, I am on that dang site, every single day! The 75 is doing perfectly well. I think it's over the "hump". I hope so anyway!! It's due for it's water change tomorrow and I won't lie...I'm very apprehensive over rocking the boat in that tank. I know it's not my water (did my 50% discus tank change last night) but I'm totally paranoid now. :-(


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