# Bolivian Ram or Blue Gourami with GBR??



## GwenInNM (Feb 2, 2011)

I'm down to one male German Ram in my well planted 30 gallon tank. I'm wondering if I don't get another female ... would anyone suggest me moving my female Opaline Gourami over to this tank, or my Bolivian Ram (not sure of the sex)??? 

The other option is I buy another female GBR, but he would not have "picked" her, so I'm not sure. 

I'm open to other fish selections. I'm keeping the temp at 83 degrees and the ph is 6.3

Thanks.

Gwen


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## jennesque (May 11, 2011)

Sorry to hear you lost a ram.. I have no luck with them either. :/

I'm no expert by any means, but just looking at temp requirements, I don't think a Bolivian Ram should be kept with a Blue Ram. I think Bolivian Rams like water much cooler and not really above 80 degrees, although some placed I've read even 80 is pushing it.

I've always been scared to try adding a female, especially since I got a pair (not know you should wait to see if they "picked" each other) and the male picked on the female until she starved herself and died of stress. I didn't know what was going on until it was too late -- I felt terrible!

I think the gourami and ram should be fine together, but I've never tried it and am not very familiar with gourami so don't take my word for it.  Just wanted to reply to point out the temp differences between the two rams.


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## GwenInNM (Feb 2, 2011)

jennesque said:


> Sorry to hear you lost a ram.. I have no luck with them either. :/
> 
> I'm no expert by any means, but just looking at temp requirements, I don't think a Bolivian Ram should be kept with a Blue Ram. I think Bolivian Rams like water much cooler and not really above 80 degrees, although some placed I've read even 80 is pushing it.
> 
> ...



Thanks, you're right. I didn't look at the profiles first, and it looks like the Gourami can handle the warmer temps. I just don't think I'll try another female GBR. My male has been hearty. My first pair where I believe I had a bonded pair, I lost the male. I've not since gotten two at the same time, and this male seemed to have bonded with a female I had bought, because they spawned a number of times. I'm pretty sure he did kill her though. I think I'm going to go ahead and move the Gourami over to that tank. Thanks!

Gwen


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I agree. First, because of temperature, the 82F for the Blue Ram might be tolerated by the Bolivian but is above the high end (profile gives 80F) and this means the Bolivian will be working much harder just to live, and that adds stress and shortens its life. As explained in my article on stress. And before anyone mentions it, yes, the profile notes a temp of 81F for the habitat, but one must remember this was only one day when the temp was taken, and in all parts of Amazonia the temperature varies considerably more than some realize, within each 24 hours by a few degrees but also seasonally.

Second, a 30g is not sufficient space for more than one cichlid species. There is simply not sufficient room for either to get out of the other's way. I have had issues with this in a 4-foot tank, resulting in the early demise of one of the cichlids. The continual stress is not good for either fish. One must bear in mind that in nature, these species never come across other cichlid species.

I've previously commented on pairing the rams. In this case, having a male and wanting to find a compatible female, the only way to do so would be to place the male in with a group of females (in another tank) and wait for him to bond with one of them, then move the bonded pair back into the tank. Otherwise, it is only taking a risk with both fish, he will be stressed by her, and she will be severely stressed and weakened and possibly killed by him. I had this occur with Bolivians.

While the Gourami generally is not recommended with cichlids, that is primarily due to the territorial/aggressive side of males, so in this case your female might be fine. I would try it.

Byron.


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## fish monger (Dec 29, 2011)

I cautiously stick my toe in the water here and say that there are many examples in "fishdom" of males killing their mates for not being willing or ready to breed. Equally, there are many examples of the breeding instinct providing the only bonding necessary (no matter the species). I don't see any problem with adding the gourami to the ram's tank. The males may be aggressive but, they're aggressive for a gourami. A tough little dwarf cichlid should be able to more than hold his own. I assume that these will not be the only fish in the tank. I have three blue gourami in a 30 gallon with much smaller fish and have had no problems. At first, there was a pecking order among the gourami but, even that has subsided greatly over a few months. Best of luck.


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## GwenInNM (Feb 2, 2011)

fish monger said:


> I cautiously stick my toe in the water here and say that there are many examples in "fishdom" of males killing their mates for not being willing or ready to breed. Equally, there are many examples of the breeding instinct providing the only bonding necessary (no matter the species). I don't see any problem with adding the gourami to the ram's tank. The males may be aggressive but, they're aggressive for a gourami. A tough little dwarf cichlid should be able to more than hold his own. I assume that these will not be the only fish in the tank. I have three blue gourami in a 30 gallon with much smaller fish and have had no problems. At first, there was a pecking order among the gourami but, even that has subsided greatly over a few months. Best of luck.


I'm keeping this tank very minimally stocked at this time. So, yes, if I add the female Gourami, it would be just her and my male German Ram. 

Gwen


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## fish monger (Dec 29, 2011)

GwenInNM said:


> I'm keeping this tank very minimally stocked at this time. So, yes, if I add the female Gourami, it would be just her and my male German Ram.
> 
> Gwen


I think it should be fine. Your tanks are well planted and these fish really don't have any real common interests insofar as territory or habits are concerned.It definitely should not be a situation where one is hunting down the other to bully.


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## GwenInNM (Feb 2, 2011)

*update*


Yesterday, I put my large female Opaline Gourami in the tank with my "little" male GBR. She looks so big, in comparison to him.:lol:

The Opaline, clearly is not as comfortable in her new digs. I feel kind of bad, but that tank is now a jungle of plants, and getting her out, won't be easy. She came out to eat, and gobbled much food. Sadly, though she stays hidden, and so does the GBR 

I notice the Gourami mildly chase the Ram, but very rarely. They both seem to lay low. The Ram used to swim eagerly to the glass when he saw me, now he takes awhile to do so.

What are you guys' thoughts about how long I should give them to acclimate? If they aren't swimming more openly in a few days, should I put the Gourami back in the first tank? Have you all seen this type of behavior?

Thanks!

Gwen


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## Tazman (Jan 15, 2012)

It is new to both of them so give it a week and then make changes if it is still behaving like that.


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## fish monger (Dec 29, 2011)

I agree with Tazman.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Likewise. Unless you see serious aggression.


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## GwenInNM (Feb 2, 2011)

Byron said:


> Likewise. Unless you see serious aggression.



Well, the gourami quickly got comfortable, and was not necessarily hugely aggessive, but she was clearly keeping the male GBR from coming out. Every time he did, she chased him, until he went where she didn't "see" him. Sadly, I wasn't seeing him either. I moved the Gourami back to the first tank. Now my GBR is back out and happy. Since stress can kill, I didn't want him enduring needless stress. 

FYI, the Gourami has sometimes chased the others in the tank she is back in, but it's a quick "move away", not really aggression. I'm guessing it's because there are more fish in this tank to disperse her need to be "top dog", that it's not causing stress on the fish. She's fine where she is, but now what to do with my sole GBR in the tank? 

Gwen


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## fish monger (Dec 29, 2011)

Well, I'm sorry it didn't work out. I kind of feel responsible, since I said it shouldn't be a problem.


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## GwenInNM (Feb 2, 2011)

fish monger said:


> Well, I'm sorry it didn't work out. I kind of feel responsible, since I said it shouldn't be a problem.



You said what everyone said. No worries. I just can't decide, do I dare try another female, GBR or try to figure which fish can go with him (beside Cardinal tetras). Thanks for weighing in 

Gwen


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## fish monger (Dec 29, 2011)

GwenInNM said:


> You said what everyone said. No worries. I just can't decide, do I dare try another female, GBR or try to figure which fish can go with him (beside Cardinal tetras). Thanks for weighing in
> 
> Gwen


I know what I'd do but, I''m gun shy at this point.


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## GwenInNM (Feb 2, 2011)

fish monger said:


> I know what I'd do but, I''m gun shy at this point.



And. . . what would you do? :-D Love to hear

gwen


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## fish monger (Dec 29, 2011)

GwenInNM said:


> And. . . what would you do? :-D Love to hear
> 
> gwen


Since you asked...I'd get a female ram. May even a few (what do they call them...busy fish or something ?) to take the pressure off of the female at first. Now this is just me.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I was going to comment why this is not advisable, but I see I already set out the safe way to do this, back in post # 4, so I won't repeat myself.

While I'm here, a comment on the gourami issue: I would have thought the female gourami might be safer, but obviously not in this case. I always say no to combining gourami and cichlids, now you see why. These things (the ram bonding, or combining gourami and cichlids) are not cut in stone, but they are the "norm" for the fish, and it is always wisest to follow the norm if you want healthy fish.


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## fish monger (Dec 29, 2011)

Byron said:


> I was going to comment why this is not advisable, but I see I already set out the safe way to do this, back in post # 4, so I won't repeat myself.
> 
> While I'm here, a comment on the gourami issue: I would have thought the female gourami might be safer, but obviously not in this case. I always say no to combining gourami and cichlids, now you see why. These things (the ram bonding, or combining gourami and cichlids) are not cut in stone, but they are the "norm" for the fish, and it is always wisest to follow the norm if you want healthy fish.


I tend to speak from experience when I add comments and I appreciate that it's not always the right thing to do. It appears that I have had great luck. I've only set out to breed cichlids on a few occasions; however, on all of those occasions, I purchased a male and a female. I'm speaking of rams, kribensis, and orange chromides. They were all successful. The orange chromide experience was especially educational. Back in the day, the water couldn't be pure enough, preferably distilled. I followed the instructions to a tee...nothing. I gave up and at some point, the water became cloudy and they bred. Food for the fry...right ? To add a little more info, I put up with a little more aggression than most folks do it seems. When I see stress and/or damage, I naturally do the right thing. At the end of the day, to error on the side of caution is probably the way to go.


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## GwenInNM (Feb 2, 2011)

Yeah, thank you guys. I just don't have a way for him to "pick" from a group of females. I found a very small "pitted spot" on top of my German Ram while he was in there with the Gourami. I think it could be the beginning of something (hole-in-head) that may have been stress related. I'm watching it and don't see it getting worse. I'm going to do a water change today. As far as his color, he is back to normal, he's black spot is nice and black he has his blues. With the Gourami, he was all faded, and I feel I did the right thing by taking her out. If he could describe what kind of female he's looking for, I'd try getting him one. ;-) LOL

For now, he'll remain by himself. :-D

Gwen


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## jennesque (May 11, 2011)

I thought they got darker when stressed.. mine did at least. Anytime I didanything in the tank they would get dark with sort of stripes and would nip at me. Too cute lol, even though I did feel bad. They'd also get dark defending their eggs at times, and also occasionally while.feeding.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GwenInNM (Feb 2, 2011)

jennesque said:


> I thought they got darker when stressed.. mine did at least. Anytime I didanything in the tank they would get dark with sort of stripes and would nip at me. Too cute lol, even though I did feel bad. They'd also get dark defending their eggs at times, and also occasionally while.feeding.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I was just referring to his black spot, it was all faded and you could barely see it, now he's back to normal. For mine, he never got "dark" if was more his colors got mute, and he became less bright. I guess he didn't want to draw attention to himself. 

Gwen


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## fish monger (Dec 29, 2011)

Have you thought about Harmony.com for your boy ?


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