# No water changes ever!!



## redthebetta (Aug 11, 2013)

I'm thinking about how I can lower my maintenance in my very well stocked community tank. I know this isn't new but hey, it works! 
What you need:

6 ft of airline tubing ($3)
2 airline valves ($2)
2 buckets ($10)
Sorry that I can't post pictures but here's how to make it:

cut the tubing in half
attach the 2 valves, one on each tube
fill 1 bucket
start a siphon bupy sucking on the end of the tube so water flows from the full bucket to the tank
do the same with the other one but make it pull water into the tank
adjust the vales so the flow slowly and at the same rate
Now all you have to do is fill one bucket and empty the other one each day! If you are smart, you could run a dedicated pipe to the bucket and an output directly to a drain so you have 0 maintenance! This works great on fry tanks!


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Let me get this straight - water flows from bucket A (which would have to be higher than the tank) to the tank, and then from the tank into bucket B (which would have to be below the tank). Is that right?


----------



## redthebetta (Aug 11, 2013)

Yes.


----------



## Ogre44 (Nov 5, 2011)

What about the buildup of solid waste at the bottom of the tank?


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

I don't understand how this is "no water changes ever". You are still changing the water, only now you risk overflowing the bucket and draining your tank, and are a slave to it. You are still required to carry buckets of water, but only now you have to put 50 lbs of water up higher than the tank (on a shelf??). That's a dangerous setup, just asking for trouble. I would never attempt something so risky, especially with no reward to be had.


----------



## redthebetta (Aug 11, 2013)

Ok, whatever, I still find this easier. And I may have exaggerated about the no water changes ever part. You still need to gavel vac.


----------



## UncleEasy3000 (Nov 5, 2013)

I would stress out over just one of these factors:

-Overflowing a bucket (Have you checked how long it takes for a bucket to fill up using an air tube? What if you got stuck in traffic on the way home or where delayed in any way?)

-Draining my tank and killing my stock.

- Overflowing my tank (which is likely if something like food or waste got caught in only one line and not the other) 

-Figuring out how to secure a bucket over my tank without the weight of a full bucket falling down. 

-Having to change bucket on the buckets terms and not my own. Nothing like a water change when you're in the middle of doing something.

-Still having to vacuum to substrate anyway.

Have you actually tried this? Do you have a picture of the above tank bucket? I would love to see this in action.

Personally I would just get some mossballs or plants to eat my Nitrate if I hated doing water changes.. It wouldn't eliminate the necessity, but it would reduce the amount some.


----------



## redthebetta (Aug 11, 2013)

-Overflowing a bucket (Have you checked how long it takes for a bucket to fill up using an air tube? What if you got stuck in traffic on the way home or where delayed in any way?)
_That's the point of the valve_
-Draining my tank and killing my stock.
_Once again, valve_
- Overflowing my tank (which is likely if something like food or waste got caught in only one line and not the other) 
_Use an airstone on the end of the intake_
-Figuring out how to secure a bucket over my tank without the weight of a full bucket falling down. 
_Use a shelf of to the side_
-Having to change bucket on the buckets terms and not my own. Nothing like a water change when you're in the middle of doing something.
_If you have the valves set pretty low, this should not be a problem_
-Still having to vacuum to substrate anyway.
_Yea_
Have you actually tried this? Do you have a picture of the above tank bucket? I would love to see this in action.
_Setting it up now_


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

If the flow is so slow, then what's the point?? ?? Hopefully the water changes faster than the rate of nitrate production.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think you really understand what's involved with that of which you speak.


----------



## redthebetta (Aug 11, 2013)

The point is that even though it's slow, it still changes enough water to greatly reduce water changes. Here's a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIX7HhIrj54


----------



## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

Well, rather than just telling someone who appears to me to be a bit new to ideas like this that it’s risky with no reward, and that they don’t understand what’s involved with this, why not offer a less risky alternative, along with explaining what’s involved?

I’ve done a lot of drip acclimating with air line tubing, with a 4’ drop wide open runs about 3gph. Seeing as a proper drip acclimation requires doubling the shipping water, which isn’t much, every hour for 3 hours this is way to fast. I’m cheap; tie knots, use clips & so on. It still isn’t a walk away long term thing, a half hour once it’s set sure, no way for 3 hours. 

Air line, as mentioned, is small bore, just begging to be plugged by the tiniest bit of debris. The valve you mentioned would be the place it plugs, as this will have the smallest passage in the system. Look into setting up a self leveling siphon overflow, for a few dollars of pvc parts you’ll have a drain that is ½” diameter, and will be much more difficult to plug than air line tubing. If your water feed from the bucket runs slower or faster it won’t matter, this device will maintain a water level in your tank. I’d run the feed bucket line down to the bottom of the tank opposite of the overflow.

If you want to ramp it up a bit hardware wise, and cost wise look into setting up a drip emitter from your water supply; 2 GPH PC Drip Emitter, Color Green 

Install a saddle valve on your water pipe, just like what’s used to install the supply for the icemaker on a fridge. Any cheap carbon block filter after the emitter will work on a flow rate that low, removing chlorine, chloramines, as well as other contaminants. This will work with the previously mentioned overflow, a step beyond that would be drilling the tank for an overflow. Run the overflow to a drain, depending on your tank & emitter size you could walk away from this for a few hours to most of the day.

These ideas are just smaller scale hardware setups of what is done in larger private & commercial fishrooms. This will eliminate many hours of hands on water changes, but as mentioned there’s still lots of other maintenance that requires a hands on approach.


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Tolak said:


> Well, rather than just telling someone who appears to me to be a bit new to ideas like this that it’s risky with no reward, and that they don’t understand what’s involved with this, why not offer a less risky alternative, along with explaining what’s involved?
> 
> I’ve done a lot of drip acclimating with air line tubing, with a 4’ drop wide open runs about 3gph. Seeing as a proper drip acclimation requires doubling the shipping water, which isn’t much, every hour for 3 hours this is way to fast. I’m cheap; tie knots, use clips & so on. It still isn’t a walk away long term thing, a half hour once it’s set sure, no way for 3 hours.
> 
> ...


You're right. I am always happy to thoroughly explain my positions and I failed to do so. Thank you for picking up the slack.


----------



## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

As someone who uses airlines as a siphone...
I've tried airstone at the end of the intake... it clogs sooo easily!

Mu friend built himself an automatic water change system which allows continuous water flow in from the faucet, but at a rate slow enough, he doesn't need to dechlorinate ^_^ I'm pretty sure it's a fairly large tank though...

Sent from Petguide.com App


----------



## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

Here's may take on painless water changes










R


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)




----------



## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

Some of us have way to much time on our hands.
R


----------



## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

It's a good thought, Redthebetta. If only there was a way to make something like this work.


----------



## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

Nice vid jaysee! There's something I forgot with projects such as these. You always need a dog to supervise. Always.


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Tolak said:


> Nice vid jaysee! There's something I forgot with projects such as these. You always need a dog to supervise. Always.


Wish it were mine...


----------



## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

*interesting*

While I would not be interested in trying this setup, its theoreticaly very interesting


----------



## stephyjohnson4 (Dec 17, 2013)

Good idea, I will definitely give it a try. I was lost on the idea, but watching the video helps.


----------



## Flear (Oct 5, 2012)

i'm skipping ahead

if the top of the drain bucket is above the water line, it will never overfill,

when the freshwater bucket is empty, there is all the water possible that has gone into the tank
excess being moved into the drain bucket
... lets say there's a major discrepancy one way or another, dono, don't care.

once the drain bucket filled till it's water line was on par with the display tank it will not drain any more.

the only issue is if the line plugs up or gets pinched going to the drain tank.

then you've got 5 gallons of water going into a tank that has no ability to drain off the excess, ... if your water level is low enough to handle an extra 5 gallons, your doing fine.

no leaks no mess, could have total mechanical failure for either bucket or display tank, ... and no excess water to pool up on the floor


----------



## Flear (Oct 5, 2012)

reading through the thread more now

regadless of peoples complains about if it counts as weater changes and nitrates building at a faster rate than the water is moving ...

-5 gallons a day
-gradual through the hours it takes, so no matter how extreme the difference is between the water in and the tank there is no stress
-there is zero time spent changing the water only changing the buckets

how many people do weekly water changes at 20% of their tank ?, even 50% of their tank

5 gallons a day for 7 days = 35 gallons of water changed in a week
20% = 200 gallon tank
50% = 70 gallon tank
math off the top of my head

lugging 35 gallons of water back and forth in a single day is a lot of work
i say kudo's to this idea, ... requires more space, but the effort is greatly reduced to how often your vacuuming the gravel (and occasional air/water lines plugging up)


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Those that don't use a water changer use buckets to change their water....

Have you heard of a water changer? If I had to lug buckets I wouldn't have my tanks.


----------



## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

I'm one of those weird people who actually enjoy changing water. And I lug buckets to do it.
As the water is siphoning out, I visualize all the crap and harmful compounds leaving my tanks, then as I add fresh tapwater, I think of it as fresh air entering a house that has been closed up for too long. Maybe its jist my overly fertile imagination, but it always seems like my fish are much more active and hungry after a nice water change. I can ALMOST hear them saying " thank you, daddy for the fresh water!"
Plus I like to.use the waste water for my garden.
I'm sure that as I continue to age, I'll eventually become unable or unwilling to struggle with the 40# buckets of water, but for now its a labor of love... no automatic waterchangers for me, not yet anyway!
Very nice idea though. It could be perfect for some people. I use 10 five gallon buckets to change all my tanks, probaly a huge challenge for many fishkeepers.


----------



## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

Flear said:


> reading through the thread more now
> 
> regadless of peoples complains about if it counts as weater changes and nitrates building at a faster rate than the water is moving ...
> 
> ...


More people do 50% weekly water changes then your probably aware of and for good reasons. Multiple water changes(daily or weekly) do not have an affect that is direct to their sum. Simply put you do two 50% water changes, the next effect is 75% of the original water is changed. 

35 gallons weekly
17.5% = 200g tank
50% = 70g tank

5g daily for 7 days, the overall effect is
16.2%=200g
40.5% = 70g

However the effect of controlling wastes is more disproportionate then this lets on, tho the degree varies depending on the variables. Lets say your tap water has 5ppm NO3 and your tank is stock in a way that the bioload produces approx. 20ppm NO3 per week(heavily stocked).

In comparison to 35g weekly:
-70g tank- Over one week of daily 5g water changes NO3 levels will be 33.5% higher.
- Over two weeks of daily 5g water changes NO3 levels will be 44.9% higher.
-200g tank- Over one week of daily 5g water changes NO3 levels will be 7.4% higher.
- Over two weeks of daily 5g water changes NO3 levels will be 8.9% higher.

You can certainly have nitrate build up faster then water is changed especially with the daily water changes given how this works and dependent on all the variables. No method works the same for every tank. Tank size, water changed, tap NO3, and estimated NO3 production are all variables here. The overall basic understanding is that multiple small water changes are not equivalent to the same volume single change. However understanding the % difference between these two methods will usually be smaller then the % increase in nitrates levels. This I have always been confident about just haven't ever bothered calculating it out. I had to seek help in calculating this and verifying that its (probably)correct and it only involved cookies, headaches, drugs, and murderous urges. On the bright side I have a pretty awesome excel spreadsheet now. 

Additional comparisons using 5ppm tap NO3 and approx 20ppm weekly NO3 production(regardless of tank size).
50% weekly water changes: nitrate will stabilize at about week 6 with 45ppm before a water change and 25ppm after a water change
25% weekly water changes: nitrate will stabilize at about week 15 with 84ppm before a water change and 64 ppm after a water change
Nitrate will always level out... eventually... given the math. The smaller the change the longer it will take and the higher the value at which it levels out. 

Also those carrying buckets are crazy, the hose was invented for a reason. 1/2" vinyl costs like 25cents a foot. Also the few minutes of dragging a hose around and doing things while it drains/fills counts as changing water, just like changing buckets counts too. 

Large water changes will not stress fish given they are fairly regular and your not changing source waters. Only temp and TDS really have the ability to stress/shock fish, and you still have considerable wiggle room there.


----------



## Flear (Oct 5, 2012)

Mikaila, thanks for the math 

i knew there was a difference that didn't quite add up, i just went with "it's gotta be close enough" so left it at that.
but yes, daily changes vs. weekly are going to be less effective, ... but daily changes of 5gallons is so much easier than 35 gallons once a week having that all at once
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/members/10458/


----------



## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

Flear said:


> Mikaila, thanks for the math
> but daily changes of 5gallons is so much easier than 35 gallons once a week having that all at once


Not really. Bucket users are already doing it the hardest way possible. Daily water changes simply spread out the work load but the net effect is less.

For those of us that believe in hoses the difference is an additional 5-20 min of sitting on the couch drinking. The physical labor of moving the hose is the same regardless how much you change. The more you change just adds additional time to gravity emptying the tank and water pressure or a pump filling it. 

Srsly the whole idea of daily water changes being less work is only true to those that do it in the way that requires the most work, then complain that its a lot of work....

I was changing water while I wrote that.


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Amen.

I change 80% when I change the water. Why? Because I can. I take it one step farther and throw a pump (firmly believe in pumps) on the end of the hose to further expedite the process. Too, that allows me to drain one tank while filling another. It's about working smarter, not harder. But some people like doing things the hard way and that's fine - we all get different things out of the hobby.


----------



## Flear (Oct 5, 2012)

i'm not a bucket changer, ... one of those people that doesn't change water, just replaces evaporated water, ... 

but i do use a bucket, i fill it with water, i have an air stone in it so it doesn't go stale. or whatever the truth behind it is, ... i believe it does it's part to gas off chlorine. the reality may be different, oh well.


----------



## jimscott (Jan 24, 2014)

The thing about having a fish tank is that it's an artificial environment, that we create, to mimic nature. Unfortunately, we have to help that along with some technology that nature doesn't need - filters, heaters, water changes,... 

As stated earlier, we do need to help things along with water changes to remove solid waste products. How much is dependent upon the variables of your particular fish tank. It's different than someone else's, depending upon size of tank, biological load from the fish, the filtering approach you have, etc... That's a judgement call on your part, through trial and error.


----------

