# Eliminating nitrates - water change frequency, bio balls, etc.



## Mike

Hi everyone,

My nitrates have always been somewhat high, even when changing 5 gallons of water out of my 55 gallon tank each week and putting bags of API Nitra-Zorb that are supposed to reduce nitrates in the wet/dry filter. (Speaking of which, in examining the bag to get the exact name just now, I noticed that it's "For fresh water". I hadn't thought to look since I assumed that the LFS employee I explained my _saltwater_ tank issue to would give me something for a saltwater tank. Do you think the fact that Nitra-Zorb says its for freshwater aquariums means it won't help in a saltwater aquarium or could somehow be harmful?)

Anyhow, we recently lost all of our fish because a tube came off of the pump that returns water from the wet/dry to the aquarium while we were away, and the oxygen in the water was depleted because there was no circulation. We had somebody checking on the fish, but they hadn't noticed there was an issue because the protein skimmer was still going, there was still water in the aquarium, and the fish were all still swimming and eating - until the day they weren't. :-( We were very attached to our fish, especially our large stars and stripes puffer fish, so it was a difficult thing to come home to.

Anyhow, we couldn't stand to continue staring at an empty tank when it was previously full of life and brought us so much joy, so after doing a water change and making sure the water was in reasonable shape (aside from the nitrates that are always present) we got some new fish. We also picked up some live rock since we'd never had any in the tank. We also got some type of red algae that looks like a plant because it supposedly helped absorb nitrates. Does anyone know it's name?









We got one piece of live rock from one LFS which was "90% cured" according to the employees who said it should be fine to put it in the tank in that quantity, and a few days later we picked up another piece from a different LFS that was fully cured. The employees at the "90% cured" LFS told us we should rinse the rock thoroughly under tap water to make sure it was ok which I did in addition to letting it sit in a bucket of tap water for a while to make "extra sure". The employees at the other LFS told me I likely killed off anything beneficial about the first piece of live rock that way. :-(

1) How long do you think it takes for live rock that's been submerged in freshwater to regrow beneficial bacteria?

2) How much live rock is necessary before it can make a significant difference when it comes to nitrates/how much should I add for this purpose?

I _really_ want to kick this nitrate problem once and for all. I read that small weekly water changes were not enough to make any kind of a difference because the nitrates will have only returned to the same level by the next week, and this seems to be the case based on my experience.

3) How much water is it safe to change and how often without causing the tank to cycle again or some other issue? 









Also, I've read some people say that bio balls are nitrate factories. I have never washed my bio balls because I've read that that would kill or remove the bacteria that makes them useful. However, I recently removed them from the wet/dry for a few minutes so I could clean some of the debris that's accumulated beneath them at the bottom of the wet/dry, and some of them had a lot of gunk attached to them. It looked like a really bad case of tartar/plaque.

4) Am I supposed to leave the bio balls alone no matter how much gunk is attached to them or am I supposed to wash them? Is this gunk somehow beneficial, or is it what's causing my nitrate issue? Should the bio balls be removed altogether? If so, what should they be replaced with? I had asked an employee at an LFS whether I should remove the bioballs altogether and he said that they were why the wet/dry worked and removing them would be a mistake. 

Finally, there is a large sponge that sits between the chamber in the wet/dry that the water trickles down to through the bio balls and the chamber that contains the pump that returns the water to the aquarium. This sponge accumulates a good deal of debris relatively quickly. I have always assumed I was supposed to wash this sponge periodically and have used the powerful bathtub faucet to do it. 

5) Is this sponge supposed to contain beneficial bacteria that breaks down nitrates as well, and if so am I destroying all of it by thoroughly washing it with tap water and then replacing it? Should I continue to wash it but use some water from the aquarium even if it couldn't be cleaned as well that way?

Thanks in advance for your help and I look forward to getting my nitrate issue under control once and for all,
Mike


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## onefish2fish

that is a great sump... for a FRESHwater tank. if this was my tank i would have held off on fish and worked on raising the sand bed to a 4-6 inch level. i would then get more live rock, lots more. the tank should be about halfway filled with it, give or take. not only will this help with nitrates, but will make fish feel more secure which ultimately leads to a healthier life. i would also add hydor K powerheads on either sides of the tank walls so no dead spots are in the display. a dead spot ( of no flow ) is just as bad as the bioballs as its accumilating debris.
i would remove the sponge and half the bio balls. by this time i would have plenty of live rock. a few days to a week later i would remove the rest. bioballs sitting like that collect debis and detritus spiking nitrates and even phosphates because it allows them to break down ( you want a GOOD skimmer so it will catch them before this happens, and lots of tank movement to keep them suspended) even if you put a bunch of live rock in the sump, it would end up acting just like the bioballs. your best bet is to use that sump empty or even get some chaeto algae in there with a clamp on work light that has a 6500K full spectrum bulb. chaeto is my personal choice for a macro algae that removes nitrates. alot of others have chances of going sexual or if they die will release what they've absorbed back into the tank. i cannot tell you what your algae is, atleast in that picture. can a closer snap be taken? red usually means it requires high lighting.
i would search for a local reefing club. join it! these are great places to pick up live rock and equipment and usually get some better advice then a LFS because no one is trying to sell you anything ( and they have tanks too!! )
after i had the tank full of sand and rock i would wait patiently watching all tank levels.salinity (with a REFRACTOMETER, look on ebay) , temp, amm, nitrite, nitrate, cal, alk and ph, mag, at the minimum. keep a notebook and write them down every time you check with the time and date. this way you can go back and see what started to go wrong and where and hopefully how to fix it. cal, alk and mag are important for fish health in fish only setups too. they wont be depleted as fast as a reef, but they need to be there.. and stable. 
this is ofcourse what i would do if it was my tank. before i left my reef behind it had a constant 0 ppm nitrate reading. 
i would also spray paint a few light coats ( not 1 or 2 heavy ) of black spray paint on the back of the tank glass to make everything inside stand out. hope that helps some.


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## Mike

Thanks, onefish2fish. That wet/dry was sold to us specifically for a saltwater setup and we were under the impression that we were graduating to the big leagues when we upgraded to it from a fluval, so it's dismaying to hear that it isn't that good for saltwater after all.

So we should have 4 - 6 inches of sand? We have one or two and in some spots none at the moment (just because of the way it's been blown around). I can always lift the two pieces of live rock that are in the tank now and buy a few more bags of live sand if that would help. Does bacteria in the sand help reduce nitrates?

You think the tank should be halfway full of live rock even though it isn't going to be a reef? That's the amount required for the live rock to have a serious impact on the nitrates?

You think we ought to remove all of the bioballs (a bit at a time as you indicated) and the sponge from the wet/dry and ultimately replace it with cheato and a light? I don't know if you can see from the picture, but the water level in the wet/dry is supposed to be just a half inch or so above the bio balls at the bottom of the wet/dry. Would you keep the water at the same level in the wet/dry if the bioballs were gone and there were cheato in its place?

When I get home I will take a close up picture of the red algae we were sold and post it.

Does anyone else have any thoughts about my questions or onefish2fish's suggestions?

onefish2fish, changing the aquarium the way you've described would take a bit of time. In the meantime, how much water do you think I can change at a time and how frequently to reduce nitrates without disturbing our new fish? 

Thanks again!


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## onefish2fish

the sump you have is a great freshwater filter and me personally, thats what i would use it for. as for a saltwater sump a 20 long tank would work good ( even better a used 55, as big as you can fit under the stand or afford ) then taking a few pieces of acrylic or glass sheets to make sections in the sump ( skimmer/heaters/ inlet, return pump.. whatever is needed) take a peek @ skaustins DIY sump thread in the member submitted articles.
the reason this type of sump isnt saltwater friendly because it is just as bad as a canister filter as the bioballs trap everything like the floss in the canister does. this is why it is not suggested to have hang on filters, canister filters, bioballs, filter floss, or anything that can build up debris ( un-eaten food, poop.. ) overtime allowing them the chance to turn into nitrates and even excess phosphates. these types of filters are freshwater based hence me saying your sumps great for a freshwater tank. in a saltwater setup you do NOT want to give things the chance to build up, break down, and pollute your water. a fish in the ocean ( and thats where most saltwater fish come from, not breeders like most freshwater fish ) never see any ammount of amm, nitrite or nitrate. to prevent this, we have lots of water circulation so there cannot be dead flow spots in the tank, this keeps the poop in suspension in the water, giving the skimmer time to skim it out. it is very important to have a good, quality brand skimmer as this is your heart of saltwater filtering. reading online reviews is a good idea, as some skimmers are just garbage while others are worth more then gold. dont take a fish store employees advice to seriously, atleast without doing your own homework. keep in mind at the end of the day ( or work week ) they just want to collect their pay check and not many people at the fish store care about your fish, which is a shame.
im not going to say your sump is complete garbage, but the bioballs def. are and shouldnt be there. your better off running it empty then having the bioballs and it looks like theres another sponge ( the black block ) under the bio balls? this is collecting debris just like that canister filter we discussed earlier. i personally would get a clump of chaeto in place of the bioballs, put a clamp on work light with a full spectrum compact flouresent bulb on a timer to turn on when your tank lights go out, and to turn off when your tank lights come back on. ( having the lights on a reverse schedule lowers any ph changes due to lighting )
im un-aware of how large your tank is, but yes even though it is not a reef you will want average pound to two pounds of rock per gallon. some rock is very porous while others can be dense. you want the most porous rock possible, which will weight less then the dense so it is hard to give an actual ammount. in the wild, not many of the fish we keep in tanks swim open seas. in other words, there is just sand beneath them. they stay close to reefs, rock structures, ship wrecks, and so on. mostly the larger fish take on the more open seas. this is another important reason to have a nice rock structure that your fish can swim in and out. a secure feeling with the fish will provide them with less stress, meaning healthier fish. ontop of all that, the rocks will be perfect breeding grounds for the pods i remember you attempted to culture earlier this year.
again i understand this is alot more work to put into your tank, not to mention the cost so please look into a reefing club in your area. im sure a member would be more then happy to donate a chunk of chaeto algae to you too. people break down their tanks because they are fed up with the work that must be put in, which they will sell their rock. setting up the tank right, practicing good feeding habbits, and some minimal water changes to replenish trace minerals should be all you need. ofcourse testing your levels, supplimenting cal, alk and mag and other maintnence practices shouldnt be neglected either.


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## Mike

Thanks, Jon. As I'm sure you gathered from my thread about the best lighting for coraline algae growth, you definitely got me thinking about stocking the tank with live rock and replacing the wet/dry's bio balls with cheato. 

I don't know if it was due to our elevated nitrates or the lack of sufficient lighting, but the coraline algae on the piece of cured live rock I bought that had it began to die off. I decided not to purchase any more live rock until the nitrate issue was under control and I bought the light.

Anyhow, I just wanted to report that after a series three 50% water changes, each spaced several days apart, my nitrates are finally at 20ppm.


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## Pasfur

I am totally on board with OF2F on this. In my opinion, bioballs never have a place on a home marine aquarium. Live rock, live sand, and protein skimming are the keys to successfully keeping nitrates low. Proper sand depth is a must, and proper time for the system to mature before adding a lot of nutrient producing livestock is critical.


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## Mike

Pasfur said:


> I am totally on board with OF2F on this. In my opinion, bioballs never have a place on a home marine aquarium. Live rock, live sand, and protein skimming are the keys to successfully keeping nitrates low. Proper sand depth is a must, and proper time for the system to mature before adding a lot of nutrient producing livestock is critical.


Thanks, Mark. So you also recommend a 4 - 6 inch sand bed? I just checked, and our sand bed appears to be less than an inch on average. Do you guys think increasing it to 6 inches would help significantly with our nitrates? 

How would it help? I was under the impression that nitrates were the end product of waste being broken down. Would a deeper sand bed somehow facilitate breaking nitrates down further into something else? If not, then wouldn't a deeper sand bed only allow more waste to get trapped among the sand?

How much better off would I be buying "live sand" in bags from my LFS rather than much less expensive dry sand from, say, Home Depot? If sand from Home Depot would do the job because it would eventually become "live sand" anyway, what specific type of sand should I ask for there?



onefish2fish said:


> im not going to say your sump is complete garbage, but the bioballs def. are and shouldnt be there. your better off running it empty then having the bioballs and it looks like theres another sponge ( the black block ) under the bio balls? this is collecting debris just like that canister filter we discussed earlier. i personally would get a clump of chaeto in place of the bioballs, put a clamp on work light with a full spectrum compact flouresent bulb on a timer to turn on when your tank lights go out, and to turn off when your tank lights come back on. ( having the lights on a reverse schedule lowers any ph changes due to lighting )


I have a question about this. I haven't made any changes to the wet/dry yet. When I look at the bottom of the wet/dry and on top of the sponge I see a lot of what looks like brown dust which I assume is detritus that was in the water and settled.









Currently I am able to vacuum it out periodically to remove it. If I removed all of the bioballs and the sponge, and replaced it with cheato macro algae instead, wouldn't all of that dust-looking detritus continue to settle at the bottom of the wet/dry and among the cheato where I could not remove it without removing and rinsing the cheato? Or would a copepod population in the cheato eat that dust-looking detritus so that it was gone for good? How do people avoid this?



onefish2fish said:


> im un-aware of how large your tank is, but yes even though it is not a reef you will want average pound to two pounds of rock per gallon. some rock is very porous while others can be dense. you want the most porous rock possible, which will weight less then the dense so it is hard to give an actual ammount.


My tank is 55 gallons. I added another 20 pounds of live rock to my tank. I'm not sure how much that brings me to altogether. I want to say between 40 - 50 pounds.









I couldn't afford to add anymore because I have to buy it fully cured since I can't setup the apparatus to cure it at home and they charge $8.99 a pound for "fully" cured live rock at the place I have access to. :-(

I have a question about adding more live rock. I am in the process of letting my tank run fish-less so that whatever parasite killed off all of my fish runs its life cycle and is gone. I've been fish-less since August 7th, so almost 3 weeks now. I setup a 10 gallon quarantine tank where 4 damsels will spend the next 6 weeks, after which I will move them to the display tank that will have not had fish in it for a total of 9 weeks by then. I have treated the display tank with PraziPro several times now, so hopefully whatever killed my fish will be long gone by then. I plan on putting every fish I add to the tank through a 6 week quarantine period going forward.

My question is, if I later add more live rock to the tank, won't I be undermining this painfully tedious quarantine process by introducing who knows what to the system along with the rock?


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## reefsahoy

first i want to say your tank looks to be the begining of a nice setup! IMO the sand bed is only for looks and can become a problem if too deep. It will and can accumulate detrius and cause phosphate problems if not maintained correctly with CUC and vacuuming. That being said i I keep mine shallow just for look. and IMO the depth of your sand bed is fine.

Live rocks will definitely lower nitrates, and keep your tank stable. If you bought cured LR you can add fish almost instantly as long as you don't add an overload of fish. you can add LR or Dead rock even if you have fish in the tank, assuming the LR is cured or if DR, you add slowly. I even have LR in my sump and nothing else.

I agree with the guys above, remove the bio balls slowly and remove the sponge. They are nitrate factories. keep your mechanical filtration clean. I've known reef keepers who don't even use mechanical filters, saying that i use one but will eventually remove mine one of these days. 

Please don't put damsels in your tank unless that's all you want in the tank, as far as fish, and plan to keep them until they die. they are agressive and will kill anything new you put in the tank unless you remove them all. and catching a fish in a reef is a pain.


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## bearwithfish

i can add to a couple of those questions.. for the sand you want Aggregate sand not the regular play sand or anything with silica in it as that will make algae grow out of control.... and only add a little at a time with like a piece of PVC or something to keep it where you want it and to avoid suffocating the sand bed yo have thriving now....

on one side yes you risk a little when adding live rock over time but generally speaking (depending on where you buy it) you largest risk is hitch hikers (which in it self can be a cool adventure)


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## reefsahoy

a word of advise, when adding fish, keep in mind what type of reef you are going to keep eventually. some fish eat certain types of corals, clams, and shrimp. when i first started i had a hog fish in the tank and bought a ornimental shrimp. when i added he shrimp he didn't last a second! that was a really expensive fish food i threw into the tank. even more expensive than my personal seafood dinner! I've had angels picking and killing my clams too. so stay educated to what types of fish and live stock that can coexsist.


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## Mike

reefsahoy said:


> first i want to say your tank looks to be the begining of a nice setup! IMO the sand bed is only for looks and can become a problem if too deep. It will and can accumulate detrius and cause phosphate problems if not maintained correctly with CUC and vacuuming. That being said i I keep mine shallow just for look. and IMO the depth of your sand bed is fine.


Thanks for the compliment. Now I'm thoroughly confused about how deep the sand bed should be. :-(



bearwithfish said:


> i can add to a couple of those questions.. for the sand you want Aggregate sand not the regular play sand or anything with silica in it as that will make algae grow out of control.... and only add a little at a time with like a piece of PVC or something to keep it where you want it and to avoid suffocating the sand bed yo have thriving now....


Thanks, Brett. So assuming I resolve the conflicting sand bed depth advice in favor of adding more sand, I should be just fine with Aggregate sand from Home Depot?



reefsahoy said:


> I agree with the guys above, remove the bio balls slowly and remove the sponge. They are nitrate factories. keep your mechanical filtration clean. I've known reef keepers who don't even use mechanical filters, saying that i use one but will eventually remove mine one of these days.


By a mechanical filter you mean a canister filter or hang on back filter, right? If so, I don't have either. Do you have any thoughts on the issue of the dust-like detritus that accumulates at the bottom of the wet/dry? Does anyone else?



reefsahoy said:


> Please don't put damsels in your tank unless that's all you want in the tank, as far as fish, and plan to keep them until they die. they are agressive and will kill anything new you put in the tank unless you remove them all. and catching a fish in a reef is a pain.


I didn't want damsels at all. I wanted to introduce blue/green chromis to the tank when it finishes it's fish-less period because I heard they were peaceful. The LFS didn't have any chromis when I went, though, and assured me that the yellow tail damsels they had were not among the aggressive kind. Does anyone know if there is any truth to that? There is no way they would give me a refund so I would hate to just "donate" them back to the store and start the quarantine period over with a new fish.



reefsahoy said:


> Live rocks will definitely lower nitrates, and keep your tank stable. If you bought cured LR you can add fish almost instantly as long as you don't add an overload of fish. you can add LR or Dead rock even if you have fish in the tank, assuming the LR is cured or if DR, you add slowly. I even have LR in my sump and nothing else.


My concern isn't with ammonia spikes, etc., but with the potential for adding back into the system parasites that I am currently running the system fish-less and quarantining fish to ensure I am rid of.

That said, how does live rock lower nitrates, anyhow? I understand it provides more surface area for the bacteria that breaks ammonia down into nitrites and then nitrates, but where does it go from there? If nowhere, how does it help reduce nitrates?



bearwithfish said:


> on one side yes you risk a little when adding live rock over time but generally speaking (depending on where you buy it) you largest risk is hitch hikers (which in it self can be a cool adventure)


I've had two complete wipe outs now in the last few months, one from a mechanical issue while I was away and the other seemingly from a parasite. I really can't afford to risk having it happen again. Adding dry rock to the system rather than live rock and simply waiting for it to become "live" would ensure a parasite is never inadvertently introduced by adding rock, right?


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## Mike

reefsahoy said:


> a word of advise, when adding fish, keep in mind what type of reef you are going to keep eventually. some fish eat certain types of corals, clams, and shrimp. when i first started i had a hog fish in the tank and bought a ornimental shrimp. when i added he shrimp he didn't last a second! that was a really expensive fish food i threw into the tank. even more expensive than my personal seafood dinner! I've had angels picking and killing my clams too. so stay educated to what types of fish and live stock that can coexsist.


Thanks. I'm not sure what kind of fish I'll want to add to it yet. I know I'll want an angelfish, though, so from what I understand I may not be able to keep coral at all. I think I'm alright with that - I just want to see the rocks covered with colorful coraline "algae".


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## reefsahoy

deep sandbed is old school thought just like bioballs are. it can work but it requires maintenance. alot of really beautiful coral tanks have little and no sand. the deep sandbed does the same thing as live rock. both if deep/big enough contains anarobic bacteria which lowers nitrates. that's why deep sand beds were the craze back in the days. but with LR imo there is no need for deep sand beds.


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## Mike

reefsahoy said:


> deep sandbed is old school thought just like bioballs are. it can work but it requires maintenance. alot of really beautiful coral tanks have little and no sand. the deep sandbed does the same thing as live rock. both if deep/big enough contains anarobic bacteria which lowers nitrates. that's why deep sand beds were the craze back in the days. but with LR imo there is no need for deep sand beds.


Thanks for your take on the matter. I thought that the anarobic bacteria broke down ammonia into nitrites and then nitrites into nitrates. Does it somehow break down or eliminate nitrates as well?


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## reefsahoy

Administrator said:


> Thanks for your take on the matter. I thought that the anarobic bacteria broke down ammonia into nitrites and then nitrites into nitrates. Does it somehow break down or eliminate nitrates as well?


The last step is when the anaerobic bacteria converts the nitrAte into harmless nitrogen gas that escapes via the water surface.


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## Mike

Thanks, I didn't know that. My LFS told me that the only wayt to get rid of nitrates, the ultimate end product of the nitrogen cycle, was to perform water changes. Thinking more about it, I suppose that doesn't make sense since in that case nitrates would only accumulate in natural bodies of water.

Does anyone have any thoughts on my other questions in this thread?


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## reefsahoy

Administrator said:


> 1) How long do you think it takes for live rock that's been submerged in freshwater to regrow beneficial bacteria?
> 
> 2) How much live rock is necessary before it can make a significant difference when it comes to nitrates/how much should I add for this purpose?
> 
> I _really_ want to kick this nitrate problem once and for all. I read that small weekly water changes were not enough to make any kind of a difference because the nitrates will have only returned to the same level by the next week, and this seems to be the case based on my experience.
> 
> 3) How much water is it safe to change and how often without causing the tank to cycle again or some other issue?


1. when ever your nitrite and amonia reads 0 then the rock is cured.

2. the more the merrier. however it gets ugly if too much rock IMO. soooo. put some in your sump and if you are concerned about cleaning below the rocks in the sump, throw a powerhead in the sump and it will stir it up, reenter the main tank then gets filtered again when it returns to the sump. eventually it will be completely clean.

3. IMO if your rocks are cured you can do a 100% change and nothing will happen, why would you do this when 10%/month will work wonders. i sometimes go 2 months without changing water.


you also want to consider that after you're sucessful with a FWOLR you will want to keep corals so beware of adding fish you may regret later (speaking from experiencing this). Usually LFS will take back any fish fo 50% off the price you'd pay for them and give you store credit to buy something else. normally tank kept fish are stronger than wild caught and reefers will normally be able to keep the fish alive more successfully.

cheers


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## reefsahoy

oh the mechanical filter is the filter floss you have just above the biio balls. btw here is a pic of my sump. notice all i have is a filter sock (mechanical filter), skimmer, and LR. i dont use it for more water, it's just a space for my skimmer otherwise the skimmer would have to be in my tank and that would ruin the look of it! if you look at my aquarium under my avatar you'll see how shallow my sand bed is too.


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## Mike

I meant to ask if anyone could answer the new questions I'd posted to the thread, but thank you all the same. 



reefsahoy said:


> 2. the more the merrier. however it gets ugly if too much rock IMO. soooo. put some in your sump and if you are concerned about cleaning below the rocks in the sump, throw a powerhead in the sump and it will stir it up, reenter the main tank then gets filtered again when it returns to the sump. eventually it will be completely clean.


I remove the large sponge from the wet/dry, how would the dust-like detritus get filtered out? The only other sponge in the system is the cylindrical sponge on the prefilter at the top of the tank, but the dust-like detritus gets through in order to end up at the bottom of the wet/dry in the first place.



reefsahoy said:


> 3. IMO if your rocks are cured you can do a 100% change and nothing will happen, why would you do this when 10%/month will work wonders. i sometimes go 2 months without changing water.


The usefulness of live rock makes much more sense to me now that I know that the bacteria it facilitates ultimately converts nitrates into gas that leaves the water.


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## Mike

reefsahoy said:


> oh the mechanical filter is the filter floss you have just above the biio balls.


I see, thanks. Since it looks like I'll be converting my wet/dry to a sump-like setup, I'll be removing that floss/pad along with the bioballs. I actually put a mesh bag over the pvc that returns water from the tank to the wet/dry, but I don't think the mesh is fine enough because a lot of dust-like detritus still gets through. I guess I'll need to get a proper filter sock like you have. Hopefully it will do a better job than the floss/pad did at trapping the dust-like detritus. 



reefsahoy said:


> btw here is a pic of my sump. notice all i have is a filter sock (mechanical filter), skimmer, and LR. i dont use it for more water, it's just a space for my skimmer otherwise the skimmer would have to be in my tank and that would ruin the look of it! if you look at my aquarium under my avatar you'll see how shallow my sand bed is too.


Interesting, thanks for sharing the picture of your sump. It looks like there is a lot going on there. Your tank is beautiful, of course!

I'll have quite a bit of room to work with in the wet/dry when I remove the bio balls and sponge and raise the water level.










We now have a HOB protein skimmer on the tank because the skimmer that came with this unit didn't seem effective, so the skimmer and pump in the first chamber on the left in this picture is empty. The second chamber will also be empty, of course. The return pump and the pump that pushes water to our HOB skimmer is in the third chamber on the right.

With that big blue sponge removed, though, might water go through the system too quickly for any rock I were to put in there to be effective? Thinking more about it, I suppose I couldn't put sand at the bottom either if I converted this to a sump-like system since the main chamber and the chamber where the return pump goes is connected at the bottom. :-( Would the water likely move too fast for cheato to be of any benefit as well? I would love to see more amphipods in the system, but amphipods could not make it from the sump, through the return pump, and back into the display tank in one piece, could they? With the HOB skimmer's pump in the same place, might pods end up in the protein skimmer as well in that scenario? :shock:


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## reefsahoy

fyi, i made my filter sock by buying material from a fabric store and just sewing it myself. i used a clothes pin to attach it to the side of the sump. as far as water traveling thru the sump the only consideration IMO is to have it slow enough so you don't pull microbubbles back to the tank but the rocks are always in the water and it will filter it no matter how fast the water travels thru the sump. IMO the success to a SW tank are.

1. surface skimming from the main tank
2. big protien skimmer for the water you have
3. carbon for water clarity.
4. water movement
5 live rocks
for reefs add
6. lights
7. supplements for MG, CA, ALK
8 make sure you use RO/DI water for topoff and making SW. (this will eliminate phosphate, silicates, and just give you good clean water. problems will brew undetected for awhile without ro/di then all of a sudden it will go out of control driving you crazy even if you do water changes because all the impurities are in tap water. yuou will keep at bay algae, red slime, coral health degrade if you use RO/DI)
9. some kind of phosphate remover( may not be necessary if you dose vodka! yes Vodka the type you drink, if you know what you are doing!)

number 8 should be used for any sw applications. it's not 100% necessary for FOWLR but it will keep you headaches to a minimum in the long run!

if i think of something else i'll repost.


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## reefsahoy

the stuff in my sump are a CA reactor which adds ca, mg, alk automatically, and ATO, and carbon and phosphate remover. that's it and nothing else.


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## Mike

I went ahead and removed everything from the wet/dry this morning except for the return pumps, of course. I added 5 gallons of freshly mixed saltwater to the system and slipped a finer mesh bag over the piece of PVC that returns water to the wet/dry (now a sump?) to act as a filter sock and hopefully catch dust-like detritus. 

I measured the nitrates before adding the additional water to see where they were so I could later compare them. My nitrates appear to be at 10ppm. I understand this is considered an acceptable level, but I have not had any fish in the tank for 3 weeks and I have performed a number of 50% water changes during the past few weeks in the interest of lowering nitrates and in the course of treating the tank with PraziPro. My nitrates have been consistently high otherwise. 

I have a few questions.

1) According to the manufacturer, the wet/dry was supposed to be filled to the red line in the picture below. It is now filled to the green line since the bioballs have been removed. Is there any chance that the acrylic box cannot take the added pressure of this additional water volume and will come apart, flooding my living room, or is there no need to fear such a thing?









2) I haven't had any detectable ammonia or nitrItes for a long time, so the wet/dry with bio balls was presumably doing a good job as far as they were concerned. With the bioballs removed, should I expect to see ammonia and nitrIte spikes? Again, there are currently no fish in the tank and won't be for another 5 weeks, otherwise I would not have "removed first and asked questions later."

3) Can the beneficial bacteria on/in live rock grow and do its job without any light in case I can't fit a light in the cabinet? Would it do its job any more effectively with a light, or is it indifferent to light?

4) How much rock should I put in the middle chamber of the wet/dry (sump?)? Should I fill the entire thing with rock if I can? Should I use big pieces or small?

5) If I fill the chamber with dry rock because I can't afford cured live rock and don't want to introduce who knows what to the system, how long do you think it would be before the dry rock cured and it was safe to add fish to the tank? 

6) Would filling the chamber with dry rock introduce enough ammonia, etc., to the tank to harm the hermit, emerald, and... spider looking crabs that are currently in the tank?

Thank you so much for your help, everyone! I feel like I'm almost "there". If replacing the bio balls with live rock proves to keep my nitrates low once I reintroduce fish to the system, I'll be a live rock evangelist.


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## bearwithfish

ok for 1 - that level was recommended so the bio-balls got air you should be fine
2 - if you see one at all it will be small as the parasites die off (if they are not eaten by the crabs!)
3 - yes they can grow with out a light but a simple clamp on fixtur with a 5500K full spectrum CFL bulb (or 6500K) will help if you want to grow Macro (very good for the system)
4 - it is a hard lesson learned from other members that LR in the sump is just about as bad as bio-balls i thought other wise and had a few issues , took some advice and removed the LR from the sump and no longer have any problems.. just stating my experience and the results based on advice received here that was GREAT!!!!!!
if anything in the sump a DSB or nothing but cheato 
5- put the base rock in your DT and let it go it will be fine and turn live in no time (also if you are interested Craigs list has people selling LR all the time cheep as they break down and move on)
6 - NO


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## Mike

bearwithfish said:


> 4 - it is a hard lesson learned from other members that LR in the sump is just about as bad as bio-balls i thought other wise and had a few issues , took some advice and removed the LR from the sump and no longer have any problems.. just stating my experience and the results based on advice received here that was GREAT!!!!!!
> if anything in the sump a DSB or nothing but cheato


Thanks, Brett. So I had this all wrong? I'm _not_ supposed to add the live rock to the sump where the bio balls had been? :question: Why? How is putting it in the sump any different from putting it in the display tank, other than being able to pile it to unsightly heights since it is out of the way?

Also, what's a DBS? How does cheato help?



bearwithfish said:


> 1 - that level was recommended so the bio-balls got air you should be fine


Thank goodness I just remembered before leaving for work that the water level in the wet/dry rises significantly when the return pump in the wet/dry loses power. At the water level I had it, if the pump had lost power for whatever reason it would have been a disaster and would probably have marked the end of my fish keeping days if the building and the people living in the apartment below had anything to do with it. I lowered the water level a few inches and cut power to the pump 10 or so times to confirm it wouldn't be an issue.

By the way, why do bio balls need air but live rock doesn't?



bearwithfish said:


> 3 - yes they can grow with out a light but a simple clamp on fixtur with a 5500K full spectrum CFL bulb (or 6500K) will help if you want to grow Macro (very good for the system)


Which type of bulb would be better for cheato if I put it in the sump instead of live rock, 5500K or 6500K?



bearwithfish said:


> 5- put the base rock in your DT and let it go it will be fine and turn live in no time (also if you are interested Craigs list has people selling LR all the time cheep as they break down and move on)


I don't think I'd want to buy live rock from Craigslist because I would have no way to know if it was coming from a tank that was treated with copper, was being sold because of some kind of wipe out - the cause of which was hitchhiking in the rock - etc. Of course, there's no way to really know for sure about the quality of live rock coming from an LFS, but presumably they're more trustworthy than the one off, pseudo-anonymous Craigslist seller because they want your repeat business. Or am I just overly paranoid? 

Does anyone have any additional thoughts about the answers to my questions, particularly whether or not I should put live rock in the sump?


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## onefish2fish

personally i would put the rock in my display tank. this provides a place for fish to swin through-out and hide in, which makes them feel more secure and less stressed. alot of the fish we keep in this hobby come from this enviroment and not an open ocean sand floor. 
having live rock in the sump wont be like your bio balls right away but give it time in a slow flowing area and there could be problems with debris and detritus getting caught in the nooks of the rocks. the filter sock you have will need frequent cleaning too or else that will allow for the debris and detritus to break down into nitrates/phosphates.
in my refugium section of my sump i would have 2-3 pieces of small live rock at a time. once a week i would rotate 1 piece up to the display allowing the micro life to make its way up to the display.
i would use a 6500K full spectrum bulb in one of clip on spotlight/worklight lights you can get at home depot for prob. no more then $10. i would put this on a timer to come on when my tank lights go out and off when the tank lights come back on or run it 24 hours. every few days give the ball of chaeto a rotate. the chaeto feeds off nitrates and unlike calurpa ( spelling? ) when/if it dies it will not release what it absorbed back into the tank or go sexual and start sprouting all over the place. ( california has an issue with this prob. because some not so educated hobbyist decided to dump their tanks that failed at the beach )
i think that is a good idea about craigslist, while im sure you can find some worth your time, you do never know. im going to again suggest a reefing club. you dont need to be invovled every week, even every month. mine held meetings every month and they werent mandatory. possibly a great place to pick up some live rock.


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## bearwithfish

ok so remember most of my answers are based in experience and research 
one thing at a time i hope this helps.....
bio-balls in a sump produce nitrates Live rock and or live rock rubble will do the same things due to the amount of flow in the sump and the lack of circulation within (based on what i have read and advice received i removed mine and consistently get a 0 reading)
a DSB is a deep sand bed 4+ inches this has some long standing research in its effectiveness to have both aerobic and anaerobic bacteria that each play a part in keeping a system healthy (i personally have a shallow sand bed in my DT and none in my sump ATM when i do add to my sump it will be in the 5 inch range)
the bacteria that grows on Bio-balls needs oxygen to produce its effects Live Rock on the other hand has different bacteria that gets it oxygen from the water much like our fish or corals do - same results different breed of bacteria
as for the bulb either will do the job! a person did a bit of an experiment and found that for what ever reason the 5500K light promotes greater growth of the Cheato and this has proven to be the case in my system as well i tried the 6500k (grow bulb) and got much slower growth - again i dont understand why but it worked!
as for buying from Craigs list when asking the potential seller about the system i ask whats living in it now typically those who have corals and inverts thriving have not used copper based meds and that is the sign you look for not the sellers word (people are looking to make a buck LOL)
oh before i forget Cheato removes phosphates and othe by products of waist so assists in filtration... also a great place for various pods to breed and thrive


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## reefsahoy

there are basically 2 types of bacteria. 1. anaerobic and 2.aerobic. 
aerobic is bacteria on bioball s and is one of the first steps in the provcess. they turn amonia to nitrite then nitrate and need oxygen to live and do it's job. this is the BIG difference between LR being submerged under water and bioballs with trickling water over them. anaerobic bacteria requires no oxygen and live deep within the rock and that bacteria change nitrate into nitrogen gas that escape thru the water surface. Hence you can put LR in the sump submerged. It will not act like bioballs if done so in this fashon.

the only requirement of water level in the sump is so the rocks (if you put them there) are submerged. otherwise the only level requirementsis is that the pump dont suck air or to make your skimmer work properly. now if you want to add water volume that's totally up to you. sumps is just a place to put ugly equipment in a hidden place that you won't see when looking at the DT. lr don't need lights to get bacteria otherwise all the rocks below the ocean where the light can't penetrate would be useless. As far as using dead rock you wont introduce hitch hikers but you can and probably will introduce alot of dead stuff which in turn will be a phosphate problem for months on end. don't believe me? try this- put some dead rock in your setup for a few days, then get a bucket of fresh SW that is known not to have phosphate. then take that same rock and put it in the bucket and measure phosphates again in a day or 2 and see what you get. bad lr can leach phosphates for months on end until it leaches all out. this is why they say as the aquarium matures it get's better and more stable. the older the rock the more stable the enviornment.


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## Mike

Thanks Jon, Brett, and reefsahoy. (What's your name again, reefs?)



onefish2fish said:


> having live rock in the sump wont be like your bio balls right away but give it time in a slow flowing area and there could be problems with debris and detritus getting caught in the nooks of the rocks.





bearwithfish said:


> bio-balls in a sump produce nitrates Live rock and or live rock rubble will do the same things due to the amount of flow in the sump and the lack of circulation within (based on what i have read and advice received i removed mine and consistently get a 0 reading)





reefsahoy said:


> sumps is just a place to put ugly equipment in a hidden place that you won't see when looking at the DT.


So if I shouldn't have bio balls or live rock in the sump, my protein skimmer won't fit in the cabinet, and my newfangled Fluval VueTech heater flashes the low flow alert when it's in the only chamber tall enough to accommodate it, then I can only use the converted wet/dry sump for housing macro algae? 



onefish2fish said:


> the filter sock you have will need frequent cleaning too or else that will allow for the debris and detritus to break down into nitrates/phosphates.


Without this filter sock, though, there would be no mechanical filtration other than the prefilter sponge and it would seem this dust-like detritus would never leave the water. Or am I missing something? If I were to add cheato to the sump, would copepods eat this dust-like detritus? Is there a name for what I keep referring to as dust-like detritus, by the way? Is it simply detritus?



bearwithfish said:


> a DSB is a deep sand bed 4+ inches this has some long standing research in its effectiveness to have both aerobic and anaerobic bacteria that each play a part in keeping a system healthy (i personally have a shallow sand bed in my DT and none in my sump ATM when i do add to my sump it will be in the 5 inch range)


So you would recommend adding sand to the sump, then? Unfortunately, the return chamber is connected to the main chamber of the sump at the _bottom_, which would mean sand would get picked up by the return pump that sits at the bottom of the return chamber, right?



bearwithfish said:


> the bacteria that grows on Bio-balls needs oxygen to produce its effects Live Rock on the other hand has different bacteria that gets it oxygen from the water much like our fish or corals do - same results different breed of bacteria





reefsahoy said:


> there are basically 2 types of bacteria. 1. anaerobic and 2.aerobic.
> aerobic is bacteria on bioball s and is one of the first steps in the provcess. they turn amonia to nitrite then nitrate and need oxygen to live and do it's job. this is the BIG difference between LR being submerged under water and bioballs with trickling water over them. anaerobic bacteria requires no oxygen and live deep within the rock and that bacteria change nitrate into nitrogen gas that escape thru the water surface.


So the aerobic bacteria on bio balls help break ammonia down into nitrite and nitrite down into nitrate, while the anaerobic bacteria on live rock helps the nitrate escape as nitrogen gas, correct?

Will the anaerobic bacteria on live rock _also_ break ammonia down into nitrite and nitrite down into nitrate before finally converting it to nitrogen gas? I hope so because I just removed all of my bio balls. :shock:



bearwithfish said:


> as for the bulb either will do the job! a person did a bit of an experiment and found that for what ever reason the 5500K light promotes greater growth of the Cheato and this has proven to be the case in my system as well i tried the 6500k (grow bulb) and got much slower growth - again i dont understand why but it worked!





onefish2fish said:


> i would use a 6500K full spectrum bulb in one of clip on spotlight/worklight lights you can get at home depot for prob. no more then $10. i would put this on a timer to come on when my tank lights go out and off when the tank lights come back on or run it 24 hours.


If I shouldn't put anything in the sump other then cheato and/or sand then I'll try to get my hands on a clip on work light and a 5500k bulb since that reportedly resulted in faster growth. 

​


bearwithfish said:


> as for buying from Craigs list when asking the potential seller about the system i ask whats living in it now typically those who have corals and inverts thriving have not used copper based meds and that is the sign you look for not the sellers word (people are looking to make a buck LOL)


Unfortunately, somebody could just as easily lie about what's thriving in their tank as they could about the source or condition of the rock, Brett. 



reefsahoy said:


> lr don't need lights to get bacteria otherwise all the rocks below the ocean where the light can't penetrate would be useless.


Good point, reefs. Based on everyone's feedback it sounds like I shouldn't add live rock to the sump regardless, though. 



reefsahoy said:


> As far as using dead rock you wont introduce hitch hikers but you can and probably will introduce alot of dead stuff which in turn will be a phosphate problem for months on end. don't believe me? try this- put some dead rock in your setup for a few days, then get a bucket of fresh SW that is known not to have phosphate. then take that same rock and put it in the bucket and measure phosphates again in a day or 2 and see what you get. bad lr can leach phosphates for months on end until it leaches all out. this is why they say as the aquarium matures it get's better and more stable. the older the rock the more stable the enviornment.


Perfect, because a phosphate issue that would take months to resolve is just what I want after two complete wipe outs, a chronic nitrate issue, and all this effort to get things right. 

It sounds like adding dry rock to the aquarium is not a good idea. At the same time, my "petition" to setup a quarantine tank was barely "approved", so setting up curing apparatus is not an option. Buying cured live rock from an LFS is cost prohibitive for now since I just used up my "you spent WHAT?" card on a new light fixture for the aquarium.

Do you guys think I can get by on the 40 or so lbs of live rock I already have in the tank, or am I going to have a problem unless I add more live rock soon since my bio balls are now removed and I have no other source of filtration?


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## bearwithfish

get by on 40 pounds - yes sir and if you buy a little at a time over the next few months you can add it slowly with little to no bad effect.... 

as for the return on teh bottom i was unaware sorry - one option is to not use sand (it works fine with out it) or add a baffle to hold the sand back from the pump ....


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## reefsahoy

40 lbs is good. just go light load until you get more. and yes lr will convert ammonia and ntrite to nitrate. lr is the best biological filter that i'm aware of. consider this. in your sump you probably will have 20 gallons of water max right? your skimmer if its in the sump is doing like 300 to 500 gals/hr so even without water flowing thru the sump your skimmer will filter out 20 to 40 times the volume of water in the sump/hr. if your display tank is 50 gallons your skimmer will filter at least the entire tank every 45 mins.at that point do you really believe your sump will be able to settle and collect detrius? thats why i said that the best thing to do is have an over sized skimmer. that i think is the major secret to keeping sw tanks. the bigger the skimmer the more room for error when feeding and polluting the tank with food and bio load. my skimmer is rated for 265 gallons and my tank when you compensate for rock is probably 80 gallons. i can throw food in my tank and the corals better eat fast otherwise they will have to wait till i feed again!

you can add dead rock but it needs to be really clean rock and i would do the test i mention above to check for phosphates. when i started i had major phosphate problems and i did that test and it ws an eye opener. i couldn't figure out where the phosphate was coming from until i did that test. at that point i use phosphate remover in the tub and ran it 24/7 until all phosphate was gone. then i loaded my tank up with those rocks i have now.


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## reefsahoy

i think i might get long winded here. there is 2 schools of thought and i believe you've got 2 feet in both so here goes. remember that i've always said there are many ways to do the same thing. you can use either method or a combo of both but there are draw backs no matter which way you go.

1st
you can do a SW tank without a skimmer by using your sump as a refuge and putting cheato and/or sand as you mention above. the draw back with this is that you don't have alot of room for error. the waste will have to turn to phosphate before cheato can remove it and cheato accumulates phosphates slowly, hence they grow slow, so you will have to have a light bio load on the tank,and be very careful feeding. you will also have to put a light on the sump to keep the cheato alive. the plus is you will have natural food feeding everything in the dt that lives in the refuge. but the minus which is big is that you will have phosphate in your water all the time, and the lr will absorb some, and you will have to have a small bio load with littler room for error.

2nd you can use a skimmer (preferably a big one) and the skimmer will filter out the waste before it can brake down and become phosphate. IMO this is a better way because you are taking out the waste before the LR can absorb the phosphates. another trick in useing a skimmer is to add carbon to your water and what this does is cause a bacteria bloom in the water. this bacteria bloom will consmle all waste in the water and the skimmer will go nuts and pull everything out of the wate before the bacteria dies, leaving the water crystal clear. if you choose this option we can start another discussion on how to accomplish this so dont dose it until you understand whats happening. Yes i do dose vodka into my tank and my skimmer goes nuts! 
3rd option is both but if your skimmer is big enough the cheato will not be able to live, you will get coralline on the pumps and skimmer and to me is not worth it. like i said if you dose carbon, feed lightly there will be undetectible phosphate assuming your skimmer is good and that causes cheato to not grow or die. if you can get cheato to grow then you have phosphate in the water which is a no-no.


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## bearwithfish

reefsahoy said:


> i think i might get long winded here. there is 2 schools of thought and i believe you've got 2 feet in both so here goes. remember that i've always said there are many ways to do the same thing. you can use either method or a combo of both but there are draw backs no matter which way you go.
> 
> 1st
> you can do a SW tank without a skimmer by using your sump as a refuge and putting cheato and/or sand as you mention above. the draw back with this is that you don't have alot of room for error. the waste will have to turn to phosphate before cheato can remove it and cheato accumulates phosphates slowly, hence they grow slow, so you will have to have a light bio load on the tank,and be very careful feeding. you will also have to put a light on the sump to keep the cheato alive. the plus is you will have natural food feeding everything in the dt that lives in the refuge. but the minus which is big is that you will have phosphate in your water all the time, and the lr will absorb some, and you will have to have a small bio load with littler room for error.
> 
> 2nd you can use a skimmer (preferably a big one) and the skimmer will filter out the waste before it can brake down and become phosphate. IMO this is a better way because you are taking out the waste before the LR can absorb the phosphates. another trick in useing a skimmer is to add carbon to your water and what this does is cause a bacteria bloom in the water. this bacteria bloom will consmle all waste in the water and the skimmer will go nuts and pull everything out of the wate before the bacteria dies, leaving the water crystal clear. if you choose this option we can start another discussion on how to accomplish this so dont dose it until you understand whats happening. Yes i do dose vodka into my tank and my skimmer goes nuts!
> 3rd option is both but if your skimmer is big enough the cheato will not be able to live, you will get coralline on the pumps and skimmer and to me is not worth it. like i said if you dose carbon, feed lightly there will be undetectible phosphate assuming your skimmer is good and that causes cheato to not grow or die. if you can get cheato to grow then you have phosphate in the water which is a no-no.


i opened a thread about the doseing as i am very curious and would like to learn more about it .. i am in no way ready to try it but i am open to learn anything!!


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## Mike

bearwithfish said:


> get by on 40 pounds - yes sir and if you buy a little at a time over the next few months you can add it slowly with little to no bad effect...





reefsahoy said:


> 40 lbs is good. just go light load until you get more. and yes lr will convert ammonia and ntrite to nitrate. lr is the best biological filter that i'm aware of.


Great, so it sounds like I won't be in bad shape with only 40 lbs of live rock for a while. Thanks, guys. 



reefsahoy said:


> you can add dead rock but it needs to be really clean rock and i would do the test i mention above to check for phosphates. when i started i had major phosphate problems and i did that test and it ws an eye opener. i couldn't figure out where the phosphate was coming from until i did that test. at that point i use phosphate remover in the tub and ran it 24/7 until all phosphate was gone. then i loaded my tank up with those rocks i have now.


Thanks for the heads up about the potential consequence of the dry rock, reefs. How do you make sure the dry rock is clean? Would running it under the bathtub faucet for a few minutes suffice? (I'm guessing not...)



reefsahoy said:


> consider this. in your sump you probably will have 20 gallons of water max right? your skimmer if its in the sump is doing like 300 to 500 gals/hr so even without water flowing thru the sump your skimmer will filter out 20 to 40 times the volume of water in the sump/hr. if your display tank is 50 gallons your skimmer will filter at least the entire tank every 45 mins.at that point do you really believe your sump will be able to settle and collect detrius? thats why i said that the best thing to do is have an over sized skimmer. that i think is the major secret to keeping sw tanks. the bigger the skimmer the more room for error when feeding and polluting the tank with food and bio load. my skimmer is rated for 265 gallons and my tank when you compensate for rock is probably 80 gallons. i can throw food in my tank and the corals better eat fast otherwise they will have to wait till i feed again!





reefsahoy said:


> 2nd you can use a skimmer (preferably a big one) and the skimmer will filter out the waste before it can brake down and become phosphate. IMO this is a better way because you are taking out the waste before the LR can absorb the phosphates. another trick in useing a skimmer is to add carbon to your water and what this does is cause a bacteria bloom in the water. this bacteria bloom will consmle all waste in the water and the skimmer will go nuts and pull everything out of the wate before the bacteria dies, leaving the water crystal clear. if you choose this option we can start another discussion on how to accomplish this so dont dose it until you understand whats happening. Yes i do dose vodka into my tank and my skimmer goes nuts!
> 3rd option is both but if your skimmer is big enough the cheato will not be able to live, you will get coralline on the pumps and skimmer and to me is not worth it. like i said if you dose carbon, feed lightly there will be undetectible phosphate assuming your skimmer is good and that causes cheato to not grow or die. if you can get cheato to grow then you have phosphate in the water which is a no-no.


I definitely need to allow for room for error so I choose door number two.  

I was about to post that unfortunately my HOB skimmer is too tall to put in the cabinet with the sump, but then I remembered that the pump that feeds it water is in the sump so it is effectively in the sump. I bought the Marine Technical Concepts TM3000 skimmer just a few months ago because my LFS told me it was much better than anything that was mass produced by a well known company. I've found it interesting that I can't find _anything_ about it on the Internet since, even at Marine Technical Concept's own website. :-( I called them, though, and they said it's rated for up to 100 gallons. Do you guys think it should be adequate for my 55 gallon display tank and 10-15 gallon converted wet/dry-sump in that case?

 After what happened this morning before I left for work, carbon dosing is sounding like a good idea. I stupidly didn't turn off the return pump when I vacuumed the dust-like detritus (did we decide on a better name for that?) out of the wet/dry after removing the bio balls. As a result, a lot of it got sucked up and spit out into my display tank. The ball of cheato in my display tank looks like it has scum all over it from all of the gunk that settled in the display tank. I sure hope the amphipods I see crawling through the cheato or something else eats this garbage. :-(
​


----------



## reefsahoy

to me, the most critical piece of equipment to sw keeping is the skimmer along with surface skimming.


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## Pasfur

reefsahoy said:


> i remember that i've always said there are many ways to do the same thing. you can use either method or a combo of both but there are draw backs no matter which way you go.


I would like to use this same disclaimer before my about to be long winded post. The "problem" with threads such as this one is that you have several very experienced people offering points of view. Often the slightest distinction can make a big difference, and although it may appear that the experienced are stepping on each others toes, in fact they are doing the same thing a different way. 

I have avoided chiming in so far because I have agreed with almost every last word posted by reefsahoy. He and I appear to have a few small differences in our setups, but the concepts are the same. We are both big believers in surface skimming, protein skimmers, live rock, alkalinity monitoring, and phosphate reduction.

That being said, I have a few comments. You may want a pillow handy for this if you intend to keep reading.

The first thing that jumps out at me is the difference in "dead" rock and "dry" rock. Dead rock is rock that has at some point in the past been live. Presumably it was in someones tank and for one reason or another allowed to dry out. Dangers exist that nutrients could be leached back into the tank, causing spikes in phosphates and potentially nitrates. Dry rock is a completely different story. When purchased, for example, from Marco Rockshttp://www.marcorocks.com, Dry rock is a nutrient free, phosphate free, inexpensive source of rock that will become "live" within a few short weeks to months, depending on the aquarium environment it is added to. My 180 http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/saltwater-fish-pictures-videos/pasfurs-180-fowlr-build-21979/ was created using nearly all dry rock, seeding the rock with only 10% or so of dry rock. You can read the thread to see this well documented with pictures.

On the subject of deep sand beds, I would not consider Deep Sand Bed (DSB) systems to be old school. I would consider plenum systems to be old school. The 2 are distinctly different in their design and potential drawbacks. I am a huge believer in DSB systems and have had great success maintaining nitrates at zero when using aragonite at a depth between 4 and 6 inches, with sufficient sand stirring critters and water flow. 

I feel that most negative feedback comes from people using calcium reactors or dripping kalk in conjunction with a DSB. I personally don't do either. I use 2 part additives to maintain my alkalinity and calcium. This point is key. I keep soft coral systems. Reefsahoy is keeping a drastically different type of reef livestock than what I keep. Systems with less than 1'' of sand have also been highly successful. I am a big believer that both schools of thought work well, and have supported this many times on this site. In fact, my 58 is a DSB system, but my 180 has less than 1'' of sand. I believe that levels of sand between 1'' and 4'' are the biggest concern and should be avoided.

Tying together the live (or dry) rock conversation and sand bed depth. When it comes to natural nitrate reduction both are effective. In true reef environments where the fish load is limited, live rock alone may be successful in accomplishing this task. In my opinion, when keeping heavier fish loads, having a DSB system can be very helpful. When asked how much rock to have in a tank, I always respond by asking "how deep is your sand bed". The reason is that I am trying to help achieve acceptable levels of nitrate reduction. In a fish tank I would personally keep far more than 40 pounds of rock. I would personally order an additional 25 pounds of dry rock from Marco Rocks. This will cost you about $75. Their Key Largo rock is what I typically use, as it is easy to work with and quickly covers with coraline.
{disclaimer: No, I am not affiliated with Marco Rocks.)

A couple random comments:

I do not find Yellow Tail Damsels to be aggressive when kept in tanks of 6 feet or longer. In fact, they tend to be somewhat wimpy.

Mike, the water level in your sump should be determined by the back flow from the aquarium. In other words, if the power goes out you need to make sure the sump can handle the back from from the drain and return lines. Your water level looks high to me. How do you know? You turn off the power and test it. But first, make sure the water level is low enough to be safe. 

Bioballs have no place in the marine hobby. Period. This, my friends, is when I would use the words "old school"!!! (Please read the conversation earlier that reefsahoy posted about how live rock breaks down nitrate into nitrogen gas.)

The debate over having sand in the sump again is case by case specific. If you want a refugium and design the sump accordingly, then you will want to have sand in your sump. If you don't have a refugium, then you won't have sand. 

I personally see live rock in a sump as being beneficial, provided that the flow rate is strong enough in the sump to prevent detritus from settling on the rock. I disagree strongly with the concept that live rock in a sump has the same negatives as bio balls. I'm not sure how to dispute this, because I simply don't understand where this is coming from. The sump is just a continuation of the tank. Suffice to say that any place detritus settles has a negative benefit, regardless of where this happens. 

Mike, I do not recall hearing anything from you about maintaining alkalinity and calcium levels. How do you intend to accomplish this?


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## Mike

Pasfur said:


> The first thing that jumps out at me is the difference in "dead" rock and "dry" rock. Dead rock is rock that has at some point in the past been live. Presumably it was in someones tank and for one reason or another allowed to dry out. Dangers exist that nutrients could be leached back into the tank, causing spikes in phosphates and potentially nitrates. Dry rock is a completely different story. When purchased, for example, from Marco Rocks, Dry rock is a nutrient free, phosphate free, inexpensive source of rock that will become "live" within a few short weeks to months, depending on the aquarium environment it is added to. My 180 http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/saltwater-fish-pictures-videos/pasfurs-180-fowlr-build-21979/ was created using nearly all dry rock, seeding the rock with only 10% or so of dry rock. You can read the thread to see this well documented with pictures.


Thanks for clearing that up, Mark. I didn't realize the term "dry rock" could be ambiguous and refer to two different things. If dry rock does not result in phosphate or other issues and becomes live within a matter of weeks then I think it may be my best option. 



Pasfur said:


> On the subject of deep sand beds, I would not consider Deep Sand Bed (DSB) systems to be old school. I would consider plenum systems to be old school. The 2 are distinctly different in their design and potential drawbacks. I am a huge believer in DSB systems and have had great success maintaining nitrates at zero when using aragonite at a depth between 4 and 6 inches, with sufficient sand stirring critters and water flow.


I have been reading more about deep sand beds and most of what I've read corroborates what you and others have said about them. However, it seems they can result in "toxic gas" issues if you don't have sand stirring critters. What types of critters are these? Can they be expected to propagate and replenish their own populations, or would having a deep sand bed dependent on maintaining a population of these critters mean yet another thing to have to worry about?



Pasfur said:


> Systems with less than 1'' of sand have also been highly successful. I am a big believer that both schools of thought work well, and have supported this many times on this site. In fact, my 58 is a DSB system, but my 180 has less than 1'' of sand. I believe that levels of sand between 1'' and 4'' are the biggest concern and should be avoided.


So you also feel that systems with less than 1" of sand can be successful. However, you then go on to say



Pasfur said:


> In my opinion, when keeping heavier fish loads, having a DSB system can be very helpful.


Does this mean that, as between a 1" sand bed and a 4-6" sand bed, both are good but the DSB is better for keeping nitrates low? I will most likely have a heavier fish load since I want to enjoy as many fish as I can for all of this effort and expense. Would you suggest I have a 4-6" sand bed in that case?



Pasfur said:


> In a fish tank I would personally keep far more than 40 pounds of rock.


I plan to. I just spent a lot on repopulating the tank after a full wipe out due to a mechanical issue (only to lose every one of these new fish to a parasite), the 40 or so pounds of live rock I do have, a bunch of test kits, a better light, and a 10 gallon quarantine tank setup, though, so I have to wait a while. :|



Pasfur said:


> I do not find Yellow Tail Damsels to be aggressive when kept in tanks of 6 feet or longer. In fact, they tend to be somewhat wimpy.


They'll be in my 4' 55 gallon DT in 5 weeks from now when their quarantine period ends. Hopefully I'll experience the same. The 4 of them have been living together in my 10 gallon quarantine tank for a week now and don't seem very aggressive.



Pasfur said:


> Mike, the water level in your sump should be determined by the back flow from the aquarium. In other words, if the power goes out you need to make sure the sump can handle the back from from the drain and return lines. Your water level looks high to me. How do you know? You turn off the power and test it. But first, make sure the water level is low enough to be safe.


Fortunately I thought of this yesterday before leaving for work, lowered the water level, and tested it 10 times by cutting power to the pump to be sure it wouldn't overflow if it lost power while I wasn't home. Thanks for the heads up, though. 



Pasfur said:


> The debate over having sand in the sump again is case by case specific. If you want a refugium and design the sump accordingly, then you will want to have sand in your sump. If you don't have a refugium, then you won't have sand.


I would like a refugium but I don't think my converted wet/dry-sump can facilitate it since the return chamber is connected to the main chamber by a generous opening at the bottom. I would imagine that water therefore flows through it faster than it flows through my DT, which is probably too fast for a proper refugium. Does that sound right? Also, because sand would have to be at the bottom of the chamber the return pump is in as well, the return pump would probably suck up sand, right?



Pasfur said:


> I personally see live rock in a sump as being beneficial, provided that the flow rate is strong enough in the sump to prevent detritus from settling on the rock. I disagree strongly with the concept that live rock in a sump has the same negatives as bio balls. I'm not sure how to dispute this, because I simply don't understand where this is coming from. The sump is just a continuation of the tank. Suffice to say that any place detritus settles has a negative benefit, regardless of where this happens.


I was thinking when advised not to keep live rock in the sump because of slower flow that, because the return chamber of my converted wet/dry-sump is connected to the main chamber at the bottom by a generous opening, water probably flows through it faster than it does through my display tank. In light of that, it would seem I shouldn't have an issue keeping live rock there for additional biological filtration, right?



Pasfur said:


> Mike, I do not recall hearing anything from you about maintaining alkalinity and calcium levels. How do you intend to accomplish this?


I had been dosing with Carib-Sea Purple Up daily but recently bought Seachem Reef Complete which instructs it should be used twice a week. I don't believe either product addresses alkalinity, though, so I may need to get something that does. I add Seachem Marine Buffer when I do water changes, so hopefully that has helped maintain the alkalinity.

I also bought Salifert Calcium, Magnesium, KH/Alk, and Phosphate tests. I have to start using them. Today seems as good a day as any.


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## reefsahoy

I agree with Pasfur and want to mention that you can use a combo of theories out there and get the same results. Yes Pasfur is right i keep a sps tank which requires that the water parameters be almost perfect and is the least forgiving of all the other tanks as far as water quality. So by definition you will need to keep the bio load relatively light to begin with. The lightig is itense so if there's a little phosphate, algae will go crazy in the tank. DSB i will agree can work for any applications even in an sps tank, but it will require you to vacuum and maintain the DSB. i can honestly say i haven't touched my sand in over a year and i really dont have much of a CUC. i probably have like 3 hermit crabs and 2 star fish and that's it and my sand is white without human intervention, and if you look closely i have almost zero algae in the tank. i use only LR for beneficial bacteria. on the other hand Pasfur is keeping FOWLR so yes i can see a deep sand bed, relative low lighting, and a possible need for more biofiltration due to fish load. in a sps tank even tho deep sand beds can work, i'd stay away from it just from the point of manitanance. . 

I want to thank pasfur for bring to my attention aboiut the dead rocks. i didn't even think of macro rocks but that when you said dead rocks i thought of rocks taken out of a tank and dried out to kill everything, then using that same rock in your tank. That type of rock will surely cause HAVOC in your tank for quite awhile. it contains dead animals, plants, bacteria etc. IMO a phosphate generator! so yes you can use Macro rocks for dead rocks and surely it will work but as you add corals that are attached to rocks you are also adding hitch hikers to the tank. now if it's a FOWLR then you have no danger of adding hitch hikers because you not adding rocks to the display.


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## reefsahoy

the biggest thing you need to do is determine what type of tank you're planning on keeping then deciding what method that best suits you, your pocket book, and your willingness to interfere and maintain. that way we'll be able to help you best.


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## Mike

Thanks, reefs. As far as my willingness to interfere and maintain, ideally I'd have to do as little maintenance as possible, though I am of course willing to go whatever distance is required; I used to vacuum up my stars and stripes puffer's excrement every morning so that it didn't have a chance to decay in the water. 

After doing more research, I am going to leave the shallow sand bed of less than an inch in place for now. It seems like deep sand beds can become an issue for a number of reasons. I'd prefer to minimize the number of potential problems. Hopefully removing the bio balls from the wet/dry-sump and adding a lot more rock to the system will do the trick and keep my nitrates low once I reintroduce fish to the system.


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## Pasfur

Administrator said:


> I have been reading more about deep sand beds and most of what I've read corroborates what you and others have said about them. However, it seems they can result in "toxic gas" issues if you don't have sand stirring critters. What types of critters are these? Can they be expected to propagate and replenish their own populations, or would having a deep sand bed dependent on maintaining a population of these critters mean yet another thing to have to worry about?
> 
> So you also feel that systems with less than 1" of sand can be successful. However, you then go on to say
> 
> Does this mean that, as between a 1" sand bed and a 4-6" sand bed, both are good but the DSB is better for keeping nitrates low? I will most likely have a heavier fish load since I want to enjoy as many fish as I can for all of this effort and expense. Would you suggest I have a 4-6" sand bed in that case?


Yes, Mike, would recommend a 4'' - 6'' sand bed for you. In my tanks I have done almost nothing to help maintain the sand bed, as the natural movements of fish & fish picking at the sand, along with a healthy population of copepods and amphipods have been sufficient to keep the bed stirred. All of the problems I hear about I have never personally experienced. I only used a shallow sand be in my 180 to save money. Today, with Nitrates being a challenge, I wish I had gone with a DSB to begin with. However, in a FOWLR tank, keeping Nitrates low aren't high on my priority list.



> I would like a refugium but I don't think my converted wet/dry-sump can facilitate it since the return chamber is connected to the main chamber by a generous opening at the bottom. I would imagine that water therefore flows through it faster than it flows through my DT, which is probably too fast for a proper refugium. Does that sound right? Also, because sand would have to be at the bottom of the chamber the return pump is in as well, the return pump would probably suck up sand, right?
> 
> I was thinking when advised not to keep live rock in the sump because of slower flow that, because the return chamber of my converted wet/dry-sump is connected to the main chamber at the bottom by a generous opening, water probably flows through it faster than it does through my display tank. In light of that, it would seem I shouldn't have an issue keeping live rock there for additional biological filtration, right?


Agreed on all points.



> I had been dosing with Carib-Sea Purple Up daily but recently bought Seachem Reef Complete which instructs it should be used twice a week. I don't believe either product addresses alkalinity, though, so I may need to get something that does. I add Seachem Marine Buffer when I do water changes, so hopefully that has helped maintain the alkalinity.
> 
> I also bought Salifert Calcium, Magnesium, KH/Alk, and Phosphate tests. I have to start using them. Today seems as good a day as any.


I would recommend that you log your test results. This will allow you to develop a pattern, based on your bioload and filtration, that helps you determine when to dose and how much. I personally at a buffer and calcium supplement. I aim to keep alkalinity at 10-12 DKH and calcium at 420-460pm.


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## Mike

I had mentioned that I had 4 damsels proving themselves in a 10 gallon quarantine tank. One or more of the 3 yellow tail damsels remaining picked the 4th to death. The remaining 3 look fine, though. Is it possible that this only happened because they've been crammed together in the 10 gallon during their quarantine period and will be fine once they go into my 55? Or do you think I can expect them to enact a campaign of slow death on each other and other tank mates in the future since they've killed their tank mate?

I would hate to have to "donate" them back to the store I bought them from 2 weeks ago and begin the quarantine process over with new fish, but I'd rather that than go through all of the effort to get my aquarium right only to be plagued by little monsters if indeed that's what these guys are.


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## reefsahoy

i know this answer will kinda be off topic but they usually say if you get 3 or more odd numbers tangs they won't fight either. but from my experience they will eventually fight till you have one remainding. I figured right then and there that tangs can't count and if they could they definitely can't distinguish even numbers and odd numbers. i even saw this in a 900 gallon tank with many tangs at a lfs who eventually lost almost all their tangs. so i'm betting that damsels will eventually fight to the death unless one is female and one is male or unless the tank is big enough where they can hide. another thing to consider is if you put damsels in the tank you won't be able to add any other fish in the future because the damsels will attack and kill them once the damsels settles into the tank and removing those fish is difficult.


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## Mike

Thanks, reefs. I wonder if the "rule" about an odd number of fish is so that an aggressive fish will always have multiple fish to chase and is therefore _somewhat_ less likely to "catch" and inflict harm on any. Your assertion that fish can't count is quite controversial. Next you'll be saying that the Earth isn't flat. ;-)

Yeah, these damsels are definitely going back to the store since I don't want to have to worry about other fish I add to the tank. I thought I'd give keeping them a shot because I read in a number of places during my research that yellow tail damsels were among the least aggressive damsels (liveaquaria.com says it as well), but them nipping their tank mate to death put things in perspective. Fortunately they weren't too expensive. 

I started a thread asking about non-aggressive fish I could add to to the tank (after quarantining each). Would you guys mind taking a look? http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/saltwater-fish/what-least-aggressive-saltwater-fish-50859/


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## reefsahoy

usually a good lfs will take back live stock for at least 1/2 price. the sell it at 100% markup. it not like you say is this fish "used" or has he been "opened" like a package, and to be honest with you , if i know a fish was from another hobbiest tank, i will have a better chance tol be successful in keeping him because he's used to captive life. So ask for credit you'll be surprised. the lfs loses alot of fish when they get them wholesale, your's have a much, much better chance to survive in the lfs tank!


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## Mike

That makes a lot of sense, reefs, but this particular LFS doesn't give any refunds or store credit.

Do you think it's possible that one or more of the three remaining yellow tail damsels only nipped the fourth to death because they are in this 10 gallon tank together, and that they won't nip each other or a tank mate once they are moved to the 55?


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## Mike

I actually got partial credit for the 3 remaining damsels yesterday. I got the impression that I wasn't supposed to, though. I brought home 4 blue/green chromis that are now in quarantine.

I've ordered 75 pounds of dry rock, so between that and the 30 - 45 pounds already in the tank (I wish I'd written down how much rock I bought each time) I'll have a total of 105 - 120 pounds of rock between the display tank and sump.


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## Pasfur

Glad to hear they gave you some credit on those fish. Nothing gets my blood boiling quicker than an LFS that doesn't appreciate the customer!


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## Mike

Yeah, I was glad to get at least some credit from them for the damsels. We've spent a _lot _of money at their store since we first discovered it, so it's the least they could do. 

I noticed when I got the chromis home that one of them had what appeared to be a large circular sore or wound on its side. At the time we weren't up to getting back in the car and making the hour long round trip again for a $5.00 fish, so I put it in the quarantine tank with the others and hoped it would heal up. I found it dead the next morning.

Anyhow, on the nitrate front, I went ahead and tested my water parameters again this morning, expecting to find my nitrates at less than the 10 ppm they were at when I tested the water before removing the bio balls from the wet/dry two weeks ago. I was under the impression that, especially without any fish in the tank producing waste, the bacteria in the live rock that is said to convert nitrates to nitrogen gas would have reduced the nitrates by some degree.

However, I found that the nitrates have definitely _increased_ over the last two weeks and are now closer to 15 - 20 ppm. :-( More concerning, though, is that the water tested positive for ammonia for the first time in years at .25 ppm. 

I attribute the presence of ammonia to the lack of bio balls and resultant lack of aerobic bacteria. I was under the impression that bacteria in the 40 lbs of live rock in the tank would handle the ammonia in the bio balls' absence, though. I was especially surprised to find ammonia since there haven't been any fish in the tank since 8/7/10, more than a month now, and there wasn't ammonia at that time. I was similarly surprised to find that the nitrates had increased. 

Since removing the bio balls, I have not added any additional rock or made any other changes except adding 2 peppermint shrimp. Does anyone have any idea why my nitrates have increased despite the removal of the bio balls and why I suddenly have ammonia despite the presence of 40 pounds of cured live rock and no fish producing waste? I am concerned that I may have made a mistake by removing the bio balls after all. 

It looks like I'll be doing a water change when I get home from work since I don't want the crabs and peppermint shrimp in the tank to die, though that will make the ultimate impact of removing the bio balls more difficult to determine.


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## bearwithfish

it sounds to me as though your tank is beginning to cycle again as you are now relying on LR vs the bio-balls.... i would think that in a few days time things should level out and drop ....


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## onefish2fish

bear sounds right to me.

trust me admin, getting rid of the bio-balls is the best thing you could have done with that tank to date and esp. since there isnt fish, now was the perfect time to do it.


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## Pasfur

bearwithfish said:


> it sounds to me as though your tank is beginning to cycle again as you are now relying on LR vs the bio-balls.... i would think that in a few days time things should level out and drop ....


I am inclined to agree.... but the testing of ammonia for the first couple of days after the removal of the bioballs would have been needed to confirm this. Something has happened here to create an ammonia spike, given that there are no fish in the tank. I am inclined to believe that something died which you were not aware of... perhaps something inside the rock. Isn't the rock a relatively new purchase?

By the way, it isn't a mistake to have removed the bioballs. A temporary unexpected result, perhaps, but not a mistake. We are after long term success here.

Also, in another pic, I noticed a lot of foaming action in that skimmer.... good brown skimate. Where is that coming from, given the lack of nutrient source? Something died. Talk more about the source of that live rock, how it was transported, and how long you've had it.


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## Mike

bearwithfish said:


> it sounds to me as though your tank is beginning to cycle again as you are now relying on LR vs the bio-balls.... i would think that in a few days time things should level out and drop ....





onefish2fish said:


> bear sounds right to me.
> 
> trust me admin, getting rid of the bio-balls is the best thing you could have done with that tank to date and esp. since there isnt fish, now was the perfect time to do it.





Pasfur said:


> I am inclined to agree.... but the testing of ammonia for the first couple of days after the removal of the bioballs would have been needed to confirm this. Something has happened here to create an ammonia spike, given that there are no fish in the tank. I am inclined to believe that something died which you were not aware of... perhaps something inside the rock. Isn't the rock a relatively new purchase?
> 
> By the way, it isn't a mistake to have removed the bioballs. A temporary unexpected result, perhaps, but not a mistake. We are after long term success here.
> 
> Also, in another pic, I noticed a lot of foaming action in that skimmer.... good brown skimate. Where is that coming from, given the lack of nutrient source? Something died. Talk more about the source of that live rock, how it was transported, and how long you've had it.


Thanks, guys. I feel much more confident about the decision to remove the bio balls again despite the temporary setback after reading your replies. 

I tested the tank for ammonia and other parameters on 9/1, 5 days after removing the bio balls from the system on 8/27, and there were none, so this is a relatively recent development. 

As for things that may have died, I found 1 of 2 sally lightfoot crabs dead a few days ago and removed it, and although I brought home 2 peppermint shrimp on Sunday I've only seen one in the tank since. I've also noticed the scattered remains of a hermit crab every now and then since it seems they eviscerate each other when they can, though there has never been ammonia present as a result in the past.

As for the live rock, I bought my first piece, which the LFS described as "90% cured", in mid July and added two more "100% cured" pieces from another LFS over the course of the next month or so. I brought each piece home from the LFS wrapped in wet newspaper. I believe I've had all three pieces in the tank for at least 3 weeks now. I have 75 pounds of Marco dry rock on the way, so hopefully adding it will provide more biological filtration.

As for handling the ammonia, I wasn't able to do a water change last night so I am going to change 10 gallons this morning.

Thanks again for your ongoing support, guys!


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## Mike

I decided to test the ammonia before performing the water change so I'd know the concentration before and after. Sure enough, the ammonia was at 0 ppm this morning. I tested it a second time and it was still at 0 ppm.

Either you guys are right that the tank cycled and I just happened to test the water at the tail end of it yesterday, or, less likely since I'm very careful when I test, I botched the test somehow, or misread the test results. Either way, today there is 0 ammonia present in the tank. :-D

The nitrates are still at 15 - 20 ppm, but hopefully that's nothing the dry rock that is supposed to arrive tomorrow won't help resolve. :thumbsup: Marc from Marco Rocks has said several times that his dry rock can go directly into a display tank after a rinse. 

How long do you guys think it will take for bacteria to form on/in the rock and begin converting nitrates to nitrogen gas?


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## bearwithfish

the older rock already has it present and the new rock will in time.. some of the rocks will be processing in a few weeks while others will take a few months .. not to worry however as you have enough to get things going and it sounds like the cycle has ended.. so you are looking good.... i would dare to say that as you slowly bring the bio-load up everything will keep pace and all will be well moving forward ... i know how much of a pain it is to basically start a tank over again (which you have) but in the long run the benefits are astounding.... i eagerly continue to watch for updates and the progression of this tank....


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## onefish2fish

well adding 75#s of dry rock to what you have will prob. start another cycle. atleast you've made a great choice on your rock selection though, its really some great stuff.


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## Pasfur

Administrator said:


> How long do you guys think it will take for bacteria to form on/in the rock and begin converting nitrates to nitrogen gas?


4 to 6 months would be typical, in my experience. Just don't get to hung up on it. 



onefish2fish said:


> well adding 75#s of dry rock to what you have will prob. start another cycle. atleast you've made a great choice on your rock selection though, its really some great stuff.


Ehhh.  I bet that given the source of rock, you won't see any ammonia spike at all. But it will take time for the bacteria to seed the dry rock, so don't expect to much to fast. In 6 months you probably won't recognize the dry rock from the live rock.


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## Mike

Thanks, guys. If anyone told me years ago that I'd be as excited as I am today to receive a box of rocks I'd of told them they were crazy, but here I am counting down the minutes until I get home from work so that I can start aquascaping. :mrgreen:

75 pounds was probably way too much since I already have about 40 pounds in my 55, but I figure I can just choose to use the best pieces if it won't all fit.

I know there was some disagreement about whether I should put rock in my converted wet/dry-sump. I ultimately decided to because it should have higher flow than most sumps by virtue of the chambers being connected by wide openings at the bottom of each chamber. Anyhow, should I have ordered rubble to add to the sump or are whole rocks just fine? If rubble would have been preferable, should I just break up whole rocks into little pieces?


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## Pasfur

Rubble is more likely to trap detritus. Just use the big pieces.


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## reefsahoy

hey administrator sounds like you had an eventful week. sorry i didn't get on the forum as i was in the middle of the ocean crusing the week and stress away on vacation with no way of getting online, phones,pagers, or messages! yeah!! now it's going back to work this week ho hum  . just got caught up on your post and sound like you had a mini cycle to me too. from the sounds of it you're going to be adding new rocks to you tank too. that can also cause a mini cycle because the rocks may contain dead animals within the rocks. one way to tell if the rocks are somewhat decent is to smell the rocks. if it has any bad smell you'll definitely going to get ammonia, nitrite and nitrates again. so before adding give it the smell test.


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## Mike

*Rock On*



Pasfur said:


> Rubble is more likely to trap detritus. Just use the big pieces.


Thanks, Mark. Big pieces it is.



reefsahoy said:


> hey administrator sounds like you had an eventful week. sorry i didn't get on the forum as i was in the middle of the ocean crusing the week and stress away on vacation with no way of getting online, phones,pagers, or messages! yeah!! now it's going back to work this week ho hum  . just got caught up on your post and sound like you had a mini cycle to me too. from the sounds of it you're going to be adding new rocks to you tank too. that can also cause a mini cycle because the rocks may contain dead animals within the rocks. one way to tell if the rocks are somewhat decent is to smell the rocks. if it has any bad smell you'll definitely going to get ammonia, nitrite and nitrates again. so before adding give it the smell test.


I hope you had a great time on your cruise, reefs! I received the rock as I describe below and found that it did not smell at all.

I received 25 of the 75 pounds of dry rock I ordered yesterday. I was disappointed that I didn't receive both boxes because I was looking forward to putting the rock in my tank after work. I called Fedex asking why I'd only receive one box when two were shipped together from the same place and was told that the 50 pound box of rock somehow opened during transit, which likely accounted for its delay. I was assured that nothing was broken, as if there would be any way to tell. 

Anyhow, the delay turned out to be a blessing in disguise. My wife had somewhere to be today while I put the rock in the tank and arranged it. Had I received both boxes yesterday and endeavored to aquascape then, she would have seen just how much water, rock dust, rock fragment, etc., got all over our living room, the hallway to the bathroom, etc. I finished and couldn't help but think of the ending of Ferris Bueller's Day Off as I raced to get the place back in order afterward.

Here are pictures of my tank and sump before the addition of the rock.

















Here is a picture of the boxes the rock arrived in. You really don't need to see this, but for the sake of completeness... :-?









Here is the rock I had to work with. I'm no rock connoisseur, but most of these pieces looked great and were full of nooks and crannies.









I wanted to put as much rock in the tank as I could to maximize the amount of nitrate converted to nitrogen gas, but at the same time I didn't want to forfeit aesthetics altogether. This is the compromise I arrived at:

















What do you guys think? 

I arranged the rock so that I could still get my magnetic algae scraper around the front and sides of the tank, and succeeded except for one small spot where the rock comes too close to the glass to allow the scraper to pass. From the side of the tank, you can see that the rock sort of divides the tank between front and back. I heard that current is good, so I have a Maxi-Jet pump sending a stream of water down the "front lane" from the left side of the tank to the right. Would the tank benefit if I bought another Maxi-Jet and set it up to send water back from the right side to the left via the "back lane"? If so, why?

Here's a picture of what I'm talking about in case it isn't clear.









I had ordered 75 pounds of rock and the weight of the two boxes I received totaled 81 pounds, including some rubble. I weighed the pieces I ended up not using, excluding the small fragments I'd consider rubble, and found it came to 18.4 pounds, which means I added about 62.6 of the 75 pounds of rock I ordered to the tank. I believe I had about 40 pounds of rock in the tank to begin with, so I suspect I now have between 100 - 110 pounds of rock in my 55 gallon tank.

If it's true that live rock facilitates bacteria that turns nitrate into nitrogen gas that leaves the tank on its own, then with this much rock there should be 0 nitrates in the tank in 4 - 6 months time if I keep a few small fish and a bunch of inverts, right?


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## Pasfur

Administrator said:


> If it's true that live rock facilitates bacteria that turns nitrate into nitrogen gas that leaves the tank on its own, then with this much rock there should be 0 nitrates in the tank in 4 - 6 months time if I keep a few small fish and a bunch of inverts, right?


In an oversimplified world, yes. But no two tanks really operate on the same time frame. I do think you have a great plan in place.


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## Mike

Thanks, Mark. Would you add another Maxi-Jet in the position I discussed?


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## Pasfur

Administrator said:


> Thanks, Mark. Would you add another Maxi-Jet in the position I discussed?


I tend to over do it on water flow. The less detritus that settles into the sand bed the better, so the increased water flow would have a benefit. So, yes I probably would.


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## Mike

Thanks, Mark. I'll add a Maxi-Jet to return water to the other side of the tank.

The right side chamber of my converted wet/dry-sump doesn't have much flow since water only spills over the lip of this chamber and into the chamber on the left, yet I stuffed it with rock anyway. While I don't suspect the rock in the center chamber will become a problem, do you think it's likely that the rock in the chamber on the right with less flow/circulation will? Would you just see how it goes?


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## onefish2fish

i would create gaps, arches, openings and such in the rock so its not just a solid wall. this allows fish to swim in and out of the rock ( which is natural for them ) and at the same time allow water to flow in through out the rock as well. 
as for flow, i had a 46 bowfront with 2 hydor k #2s, 1 hydor #4 and a mag #9 as my return pump from my sump. granted it was full of mixed corals, but had alot of water flow. 
i think i personally would put the sump rocks into the display and put chaeto algae with a 6500K clamp on work light where the rocks were. i would wait alittle bit on the chaeto though so it has something to remove from the water.


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## Mike

Thanks, guys.



Pasfur said:


> I tend to over do it on water flow. The less detritus that settles into the sand bed the better, so the increased water flow would have a benefit. So, yes I probably would.





onefish2fish said:


> as for flow, i had a 46 bowfront with 2 hydor k #2s, 1 hydor #4 and a mag #9 as my return pump from my sump. granted it was full of mixed corals, but had alot of water flow.


I'm definitely going to add flow in the other direction, then. I checked out exactly which pump I have in the tank now and it isn't a Maxi-Jet after all, but a Mini-Jet 606 rated for 82–153gph. Is that a strong enough flow/current to be beneficial? If not, how many gph of flow/current should the two pumps be?



onefish2fish said:


> i would create gaps, arches, openings and such in the rock so its not just a solid wall. this allows fish to swim in and out of the rock ( which is natural for them ) and at the same time allow water to flow in through out the rock as well.


I would have to take 1/2 of the rock I added to the display tank out in order to create more gaps arches, openings, etc. I would prefer to keep as much rock in the display tank as possible in hope that it will help me eliminate nitrates altogether. You can't see them very well in the picture I posted, but I just took another look after reading your post and there are a number of gaps for smaller fish.



onefish2fish said:


> i think i personally would put the sump rocks into the display and put chaeto algae with a 6500K clamp on work light where the rocks were. i would wait alittle bit on the chaeto though so it has something to remove from the water.


Thanks for the suggestion. Unfortunately, I couldn't move much of the rock from the sump to the display tank without making the display tank look more like a wall of rock and there being less open space for fish to ultimately swim. If in a number of months I find that either the rock in the sump is trapping detritus and causing nitrates after all or the tank would stand to benefit from more cheato then I'll definitely consider swapping the rock in the sump with cheato. In the meantime, though, I'm hoping to maximize the conversion of nitrate to nitrogen gas since that would seem to reduce the amount of work required in order to maintain the system.


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## bnhaus

Been reading this post and thought I would add a few points.

Here is a link to a guy who added a sump. It has no bio balls (nitrate magnets), a skimmer (Absolute must) and a refugium.

Melevsreef.com - Install a Sump in an Existing Setup

Looking at your tank it has great potential. Adding the rock will help with the nitrate after it has cultivated. I believe the rock in your sump is overkill. A skimmer, heater and cheato with live sand would work great there.

The coral and live sand have organisms that require lighting and water movement. The more pumps the better. A large die off may have happened to your existing rock and sand. This would explain a high nitrate level.

Have you tried another test kit? I use 2 types for nitrate test kits to get a better reading.

Good luck


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## Pasfur

bnhaus said:


> Been reading this post and thought I would add a few points.
> 
> Here is a link to a guy who added a sump. It has no bio balls (nitrate magnets), a skimmer (Absolute must) and a refugium.
> 
> Melevsreef.com - Install a Sump in an Existing Setup
> 
> Looking at your tank it has great potential. Adding the rock will help with the nitrate after it has cultivated. I believe the rock in your sump is overkill. A skimmer, heater and cheato with live sand would work great there.
> 
> The coral and live sand have organisms that require lighting and water movement. The more pumps the better. A large die off may have happened to your existing rock and sand. This would explain a high nitrate level.
> 
> Have you tried another test kit? I use 2 types for nitrate test kits to get a better reading.
> 
> Good luck


Good comments. Welcome to the forum.


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## Mike

bnhaus said:


> Looking at your tank it has great potential. Adding the rock will help with the nitrate after it has cultivated. I believe the rock in your sump is overkill. A skimmer, heater and cheato with live sand would work great there.


Thanks, bnhaus, I appreciate your input. As for the rock in the sump being overkill, my thought was that if the bacteria on/in the rock converts ammonia to nitrite, nitrite to nitrate, and ultimately nitrate to nitrogen gas where it leaves the aquarium without requiring a water change for that purpose, more of it could only be a good thing. In fact, I just added 2 of the 3 left over pieces of dry rock to the tank this morning and revisited this thread to post an update.









Is there any way the amount of rock I've added to the system between the sump and the display tank could be counterproductive, or can it only make the biological filtration that much more efficient?

As for a skimmer, a heater, and cheato, I have a hang on back skimmer on the display tank and a heater and some cheato in the display tank. Because the chamber in the sump where the return pump sits is connected to the adjacent chamber by a generous opening at the bottom where water passes through it freely, I don't think adding sand to the sump is an option because it would probably go right up the return pump.



bnhaus said:


> The coral and live sand have organisms that require lighting and water movement. The more pumps the better.


Is there a specific pump/powerhead you or anyone else would recommend for moving water around in a 55? Right now I have a single Mini-Jet pushing water around which is supposedly rated for 108 GPH full throttle.



bnhaus said:


> A large die off may have happened to your existing rock and sand. This would explain a high nitrate level.


Thanks but I had high nitrates for a long time and didn't have any rock for most of that time. Everything I've read suggests the bio balls were the issue... they did a good job of breaking everything down into nitrate but supposedly couldn't take the process the rest of the way by converting nitrates into nitrogen gas like live rock allegedly can. 



bnhaus said:


> Have you tried another test kit? I use 2 types for nitrate test kits to get a better reading.


Thanks for the idea. My nitrates are currently at around 15ppm, though, so I wouldn't say they're high anymore. Back when they were high, I brought in a water sample to confirm that my test kit wasn't the issue. 

At this point my goal is to see the nitrates reduced to as close to 0 as possible like I've read many other have achieved so that I can grow coraline algae on the rock, successfully keep some coral, not have any nitrate related issues with fish (though I understand they have a high tolerance for it), etc.

Thanks again for your input and welcome to the community!


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## bearwithfish

well if you are looking for inexpensive and still a good pump i would get the King 220 pump from petco .. it runs $20 and can move 280 GPH.... (i think) i dont remember exact specs but i run one for my return and one for my closed loop and they are great pumps for a good price..... for others i would say any of the Maxi-jets these are great pumps and you can do a small mod to increase their flow....


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## Mike

Hi guys,

In a week it will be two months since I added 75 lbs of dry rock to the tank. I had added about 40 lbs a month or so before that, so there is a total of 100 - 115 lbs of rock in the tank. My nitrates are still at ~15 ppm. There is just one small chromis, one small piece of xenia, two turbo snails, and a bunch of crabs in the tank. 

I'm always reading about reefs with 0 nitrates. I've added all this rock, but it's been two months and they're still higher than I'd like even with just one fish the size of a quarter. What's it going to take to get them down to 0?

Has it just not been long enough yet for the bacteria to colonize in the rock, and I can expect to see my nitrates begin to fall in another month or two? Should I remove all of the rock from the sump and replace it with cheato and a grow light instead? Wouldn't that deprive the tank of the additional rock/surface area for denitrifying bacteria, though?

Thanks!


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## bearwithfish

well first i would ask if you are getting a lot of build up on the rock in the sump... if you are then i would say try to place it in the DT if you are able to.... if not then i would leave well enough alone and check a few other things 1st being your test kit.. take a sample and test it and then have some one else (LFS perhaps) test the same sample to see if your test kit is good. 2nd how is your skimmer working is it getting a lot of junk out or just a little or none at all? have you had any type of diatom bloom? even a minor one that the crabs cleaned up fast? 
as for cheato i would add it any way as it is a good export device and is natural...


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## Mike

Hi Brett,

No, it doesn't look like I'm getting a lot of build up on the rocks in the sump. It looks to me like they are clean rocks. What would I see if they did have build up on them?

Unfortunately there isn't any room left in the display tank for rock, so if I removed the rock from the sump I would have to take it out of the system altogether. Do you think I should remove the rock and replace it with cheato even though it would mean having less rock?

I'll order another nitrate test kit to compare the results, but I'm pretty sure the API test kit I have is good. How much nitrate are you detecting in your system these days?

The skimmer is producing some skimmate each day. I want to run it "wet" so that it can skim the most possible, but every time I adjust the valve on the air pump that feeds it, I always seem to cause it to stop producing anything. Would adding another protein skimmer to the system help?

I don't think I've had a diatom bloom, but I've been fighting off cyanobacteria. I've been trying to suck it out and even left the light off for a couple of days, but a few days later it's back in full force. :-(


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## bearwithfish

i am interested as to what other will have to add to this .. but IMHO.. i would take out the rock and put in the Cheato...as for your skimmer i dont feel as though you can over skim and adding another or replacing the one in use with one larger certainly would not hurt....my test results from last week continue to be undetectable for nitrate...
far as i can tell you are doing everything right so far i am also currious as to the cause .. and more importantly the solution....


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## Pasfur

Administrator said:


> In a week it will be two months since I added 75 lbs of dry rock to the tank. I had added about 40 lbs a month or so before that, so there is a total of 100 - 115 lbs of rock in the tank. My nitrates are still at ~15 ppm.


I wouldn't be concerned at all. Natural nitrate reduction can be very unpredictable, even with established deep sand bed systems. If you asked me to guess, I'd say that sometime over the course of 4 to 6 months you will notice a difference. But keep in mind, the denitrifying bacteria on live rock are passive, meaning that the water is not forced to flow through the rock. It isn't like a freshwater filtration system with forced water flow. Local denitrification related to the breakdown of organic waste is much more predictable, which is why you are no longer seeing your nitrate increase... even if they are not decreasing as rapid as we would have hoped.


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## Mike

bearwithfish said:


> i am interested as to what other will have to add to this .. but IMHO.. i would take out the rock and put in the Cheato...as for your skimmer i dont feel as though you can over skim and adding another or replacing the one in use with one larger certainly would not hurt....my test results from last week continue to be undetectable for nitrate...
> far as i can tell you are doing everything right so far i am also currious as to the cause .. and more importantly the solution....


So you are also "living the dream", at least the zero nitrate dream. 

So that's one vote for removing the rock from the sump and putting cheato there instead. Do you have cheato in your sump with a grow light, Brett? I recall you saying that you used to have rock in your sump. Did you see a significant difference in your nitrates after removing it?



Pasfur said:


> If you asked me to guess, I'd say that sometime over the course of 4 to 6 months you will notice a difference.


I'll keep my fingers crossed that that's the case. I think you said not to expect a difference for 4 months initially, but patience has never been my strong suit (although building my tank back up and waiting to add fish has certainly exercised it).



Pasfur said:


> But keep in mind, the denitrifying bacteria on live rock are passive, meaning that the water is not forced to flow through the rock. It isn't like a freshwater filtration system with forced water flow. Local denitrification related to the breakdown of organic waste is much more predictable, which is why you are no longer seeing your nitrate increase... even if they are not decreasing as rapid as we would have hoped.


I wish it were the case that the rock was at least keeping my nitrates from increasing, but I actually do see my nitrates increase if I don't perform water changes. It starts to creep closer to 20ppm (orange) on the API test kit if I don't bring it back down with a water change. I also have only a single chromis in the tank and barely feed it, as opposed to the tank full of fish I used to have, which is why my nitrates haven't been as high or risen as quickly. 

I have cut up a silver sized and put it in the tank for the crabs to eat a few times, though. Is that a bad thing to do? If so, what should I be feeding them instead?

Do you agree with Brett that I should lose the rock in the sump and replace it with cheato and a grow light, Mark? Does anyone else?

Also, my tap water has tested 0 for nitrates and phosphates so I've been using it. Do you think it would help my "cause" more to get an RO/DI system, or a GFO/carbon reactor?


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## bearwithfish

yes i took the rock out (except for some rubble i am seeding for some one) and grow the cheato under a clamp on light with a 5500k cfl bulb from HD and it grows like wild fire LOL..... as for adding the silver sides i would only do that if you did not have any other things in the tank.. they are great scavengers and i have never fed mine with no ill effects.. the addition of those may well be the contributing factor in this mystery.....


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## Pasfur

Administrator said:


> I have cut up a silver sized and put it in the tank for the crabs to eat a few times, though. Is that a bad thing to do? If so, what should I be feeding them instead?
> 
> Also, my tap water has tested 0 for nitrates and phosphates so I've been using it. Do you think it would help my "cause" more to get an RO/DI system, or a GFO/carbon reactor?


For the most part Mike, these just aren't things that I would be worried about personally. Throwing a small slice of a silverside into the tank will contribute to waste, yes, but not to any real degree. The same can be said for tap water vs RO, if you are getting a zero nitrate reading from the tap, I personally wouldn't be concerned in a non-reef environment.

As far as cheato in the sump, it wouldn't hurt, so why not give it a try?

I keep a very simple approach to this hobby and try not to tinker much. Most of these things we are discussing will probably have very little impact on the long term success of the system.


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## Mike

Thanks, guys. I think I'll take the rock out of the sump and give cheato and a grow light a try. 



Pasfur said:


> The same can be said for tap water vs RO, if you are getting a zero nitrate reading from the tap, I personally wouldn't be concerned in a non-reef environment.


The tank is a reef tank, or at least it will be. So far there's some xenia in it, and plan to get more coral once I'm decreased my nitrates and beaten cyano.


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