# Surface skimming same as a protein skimmer?



## vashachiroku (Feb 3, 2011)

I've very new to salt water tanks. I have an intank pump style protein skimmer. I did noticed that the top of my water is sometimes hard to keep clean and was wondering if there is anyway to keep it cleaner. Searching around I came across a thread here talking about water skimming, but I wasn't sure my protein skimmer is already doing the same thing.

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...ance-surface-skimming-salt-water-tanks-55195/

If anyone can clear up my confusion that would be great!


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## reefsahoy (Jul 16, 2010)

it's not the same thing. but is most effective in conjunction with protien skimmers. surface skimming is what makes a reef ready tank different than a regular tank. basically water fills the tank and overflows into a box then goes to a sump or some sort of filter. if you look at the filterbox you'll notice water surface overflowing into it. the slime on the surface is lighter than the actual water so it floats. if you have a filter that draws water from the bottom the waste will never get filtered out off the surface simply because it never gets pulled into the filter, hence surface skimming.


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## vashachiroku (Feb 3, 2011)

Thought so from my reading, so can you recommend some to buy it would have to be hang on since I dont have a sump system.

Mine is a 260liter saltwater tank with an External eheim pump and inline water chiller (live in Singapore) I tried using a net, but that gets old and it doesnt seem to get most of it out.


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## reefsahoy (Jul 16, 2010)

vashachiroku said:


> Thought so from my reading, so can you recommend some to buy it would have to be hang on since I dont have a sump system.
> 
> Mine is a 260liter saltwater tank with an External eheim pump and inline water chiller (live in Singapore) I tried using a net, but that gets old and it doesnt seem to get most of it out.


do you already have a protien skimmer?


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## vashachiroku (Feb 3, 2011)

Yes I have a protein skimmer, its an intank with a internal pump, held on by a magnet.


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## reefsahoy (Jul 16, 2010)

i'll recommend one, however there's a catch if you don't have a sump. you will have to topoff evaporated water for it to work best, this is the reason it's highly recommended to have a sump because it will allow you to go longer periods of time without having to topoff evap water. here' a skimmer that uses an overflow box. it's called aquac remora. take note because there are several sizes with different pumps and you'll need to match the overflow box to the size of the pump.









and the overflow box option










there are other brand of skimmer that does this too.


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## reefsahoy (Jul 16, 2010)

you can also lay paper towels on the surface of the water and it will "catch" all the surface gunk. then remove the paper towel and all the gunk. this will take care of the stuff but you will have to do that on a continuous daily basis.


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## vashachiroku (Feb 3, 2011)

cool thanks I'll look for one of those this week! I do have another concern so here is what my setup has been.

Dec 1st 2010 got the tank running with just water and nothing else
Jan 20th 2011 Added live rocks 30kg roughly

My Sanity is 1.026
pH is 8.4
Amm = 0
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 25mg/l

That nitrate bugs me because it hasn't went down at all since I put the live rock in I thought it was suppose too? I still have no fish in my tank yet because of that. I do have two electric blue hermit crabs and two snails that made it home with the live rocks.

Am I not doing something rights?


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## reefsahoy (Jul 16, 2010)

vashachiroku said:


> cool thanks I'll look for one of those this week! I do have another concern so here is what my setup has been.
> 
> Dec 1st 2010 got the tank running with just water and nothing else
> Jan 20th 2011 Added live rocks 30kg roughly
> ...


no i think you're ok but i would guess your rocks are just new and not doing the job yet. here's a picture of the cycle process of an aquarium


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## vashachiroku (Feb 3, 2011)

Not that I dont think the rocks are good, but how do I know they are working? I bought them from the local shop the guy owns about 4 of them in the area.

I've also been adding this super battle bacteria 10000 the guy said i needed too.

SUPER BATTLE BACTERIA 10.000 • www.koipalace.net

I guess its just more of a waiting game from here on out.

thanks for your replies!


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## reefsahoy (Jul 16, 2010)

The significance of nitrates in the aquarium is arguably less understood by fish keepers than the effect of ammonia and nitrites. Although nitrates are not directly lethal in the way ammonia or nitrites are, over time high levels of nitrate have a negative effect on fish, plants and the aquarium environment in general.

*Effect on Fish*
Fish will feel the impact of nitrates by the time the levels reach 100 ppm, particularly if levels remain there. The resulting stress leaves the fish more susceptible to disease and inhibits their ability to reproduce.

High nitrate levels are especially harmful to fry and young fish, and will affect their growth. Furthermore, conditions that cause elevated nitrates often cause decreased oxygen levels, which further stress the fish.

*Nitrates and Algae*
Elevated nitrates are a significant contributor to undesirable algae growth. Nitrate levels as low as 10 ppm will promote algae growth. Algae blooms in newly setup tanks are usually due to elevated nitrate levels.

Although plants utilize nitrates, if nitrates rise faster than the plants can use them, the plants can become overgrown with algae, ultimately leading to their demise.

*Where Do Nitrates Come From?*
Nitrates are a by-product of nitrite conjugation during the latter stages of the nitrogen cycle, and will be present to some degree in all aquariums. Detritus, decaying plant material, dirty filters, over-feeding, and over-stocking the tank, all contribute to increased production of nitrates.

Water used to fill the aquarium often has nitrates in it. In the United States, drinking water may have nitrates as high as 40 ppm. Before adding water to your tank test, it for nitrates so you know if the levels are unusually high in your water source. If nitrates are above 10 ppm, you should consider other water sources that are free of nitrates.

*Desired Level*
In nature nitrates remain very low, generally well below 5 ppm. In freshwater aquariums nitrates should be kept below 50 pm at all times, preferably below 25 ppm. If you are breeding fish, or are battling algae growth, keep nitrates below 10 ppm.

*How to Reduce Nitrates*



Unlike ammonia and nitrites, the bacteria that remove nitrates do not like oxygen rich environments. Therefore, conventional filters do not harbor the bacteria that remove nitrates. Although special filters exist that will remove nitrates, such devices are usually expensive compared to other filtration units. However, there are some steps you can take to keep nitrates low.

*Keep the tank clean* – Waste ultimately produces nitrates. Cleaner tanks produce fewer nitrates in the first place.
*Don’t overfeed the fish* – Overfeeding is a significant contributor to excess nitrates and other undesirable wastes, such as phosphates.
*Water changes* – Performing regular water changes with water that has little or no nitrates will lower the overall nitrate level in the tank. RO/DI water is an excellent choice for keeping nitrate levels low.
*Keep live plants* – Live plants utilize nitrates, and will help keep nitrates in check.
*Use nitrogen removing filter media* – Instead of an expensive denitrator or special filter, use special media in the filter you have. Although they will not lower nitrates dramatically, if used together with other methods the net result will be beneficial.


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## SKAustin (Aug 1, 2006)

If I may add to the above, a DSB (deep sand bed) is another effective way of nitrate maintenance in reef aquariums. A sand bed of greater that 3" will create an anaerobic zone where de-nitrifying bacteria can develop and begin to convert nitrate into nitrogen gas. This nitrogen gas will then escape the aquarium (in bubbles) at the water surface.

and back to the topic at hand....

As stated previously, your best bet would be to convert to a more appropriate system via the addition of an external overflow box, a sump system, and relocation of your skimmer (and heater) to the sump.

If you have not yet read it, there is an article covering the use of a sump here: Understanding sumps


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## vashachiroku (Feb 3, 2011)

Thanks that was a good read. I'm not going for a Reef style to be honest figured just start with the basic salt water fish and live rock. I read around about a sump and it just didnt seem like the kind of thing I wanted to start with. The only thing I have in my tank are two power heads, protein skimmer, and the hoses for the pump which most is hidden or out of the way.

I have to have an external chiller because Singapore is damn hot all year round, no need for a heater.

If I enjoy this and it goes well then I focus on a reef ready tank next time get everything planned out and working!


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## reefsahoy (Jul 16, 2010)

did you test your topoff water for nitrate before adding it to your tank? just curious if thats where the nitrates are coming from.


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## vashachiroku (Feb 3, 2011)

I added water from my sink since I don't have one of those RO/DI setup at my house (YET). I checked the levels before and just assumed they would go down once I put the live rock in for a few weeks.

Here are images of the test I just did from the sink water I used, just took with my iPhone 4 camera, couldnt embed the images from MobilMe for some reason.

pH = 9.3

Ammonia = 12.5 mg/l
MobileMe Gallery

Nitrite 0.3 mg/l
MobileMe Gallery

Nitrate 12.5 mg/l
MobileMe Gallery

Here is how my tank looks right now (minus 1 Blue Hermit Crab, their was a fight, one lost, split in two and robbed of its shell)
MobileMe Gallery


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## reefsahoy (Jul 16, 2010)

i would highly recommend a RO/DI. If you don't i think you will have algae issues in a few months for sure. as you can see water quality issues in a new tank already. thats the best investment anyone can buy for their tank to avoid headache after headache.


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## vashachiroku (Feb 3, 2011)

Guess I'll try to source one out in Singapore. Are they complicated to hook up? I dont own my condo so that might be part of the problem. I read up on them and wasnt 100% sure if I should invest the money and time into setting it up.


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## reefsahoy (Jul 16, 2010)

if you are alittle handy it's easy. go here for one units simple instructions http://www.marineandreef.com/v/vspfiles/pdf/CorROtwostage.pdf or simply go here and select the owners manual hyperlink
Coralife Pure-Flo RO Systems Reverse Osmosis Aquarium Water 24 GPD 50 GPD II

this iste can be helpful as it has some of the users manual loaded for some of their products.
it may take a short time to download.


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## vashachiroku (Feb 3, 2011)

*Whats the difference in a 24/50/100?*
24/50/100 GPD TFC membrane


*Since I want to get rid of Nitrates, looks like I need one with a DI*
The Deionization (DI) cartridge found in RO/DI units removes some other chemical compounds often found in the water--primarily nitrates, phosphates and silicates.

*Not sure what this is though?*
GAC (granular activated carbon) cartridge


I've already started to source one out, most likely if I get this I'll start doing some water changes this week while I dont have any fish.


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## reefsahoy (Jul 16, 2010)

vashachiroku said:


> *Whats the difference in a 24/50/100?*
> 24/50/100 GPD TFC membrane
> 
> 
> ...


1. thats the amount of good water in, gpd= gallons per day ,made in a day. you must match the cartridge with the system for it to work properly. ie you cant put a 100 gpd in a 25 gpd system otherwise it wont work properly.

2. yes highly recommend it. the di part brings the water to zero tds (total dissolveed solvent)

3. that takes out chlorine out of the water before it gets to the membrane. real IMPORTANT. if chlorine gets to the membrane the cartridge is damaged. change those cartridge every year to prolong the life of the membrane (most expensive part of filter)


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## vashachiroku (Feb 3, 2011)

I found a local person but I don't think his units have the GAC, assuming I should get one with that. He emailed me this info below.

Here's what you'll get, first of all my unit are custom built one at a time, installations free.

stage one: 1 Um sediment filter - upgradeable to a .5 Um ceramic sediment filter (add S$20) 
stage two: Kemflo~T33 OCB GAC coconut carbon filter
stage three: the work horse (matrix CTO Carbon Block ~ KX) the best filter on the market
stage four: you can either have a 100 or a 75GPD membrane - Dow Filmtec (100GPD has a rejection rate of 90%* 75GPD has a rejection rate of 99.6%)
stage five: nuclear grade mixed DI resin
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## vashachiroku (Feb 3, 2011)

Wait just read stage 2 has the GAC so does this unit look good??
_Posted via Mobile Device_

.


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## reefsahoy (Jul 16, 2010)

vashachiroku said:


> Wait just read stage 2 has the GAC so does this unit look good??
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> .


 
_yes it looks like a very good unit. both the 2nd and 3rd stage are GAC. The coconut type carbon filter i heard is the best. the dow filmtec membrane is also the standard and considered the best. the first is a sediment filter. do you know if you will be able to see inside the cartridge on the di side? kinda important because the di resin changes colors when exhausted and that indicates it needs changing. since there are two types of di resin you also want the mixed version to take out both the positively and negatively charged _impurities. the two type of di resins are anion and cation types. so get both mixed in a cartridge to get H2O and nothing else! thats chemist grade water, pure, unpolluted "dead" water.

this is what i mean by clear cartridge. the canister is viewable so you can see the resin and the filter cartridge is clear. when the resin turns from greenish/blue to yellow it's time to change the resin!


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## vashachiroku (Feb 3, 2011)

He's coming over Saturday to install and show me how it all works I'll find out if it's clear or not.

BTW got my skimmer installed and the top of the tank is clean already!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## reefsahoy (Jul 16, 2010)

vashachiroku said:


> He's coming over Saturday to install and show me how it all works I'll find out if it's clear or not.
> 
> BTW got my skimmer installed and the top of the tank is clean already!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
which skimmer did you get? can i assume you are surface skimming? btw i use 2 di cartridges that way i can rotate which comes first after initally installing the filter. as the first chamber in line is used up i change the di resin and swap the second to now become first and the newest di cartridge is always second. this saves $ in the long run because the di resin can get expensive and this allows to exhaust 100% of the resin in the first chamber always!


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## vashachiroku (Feb 3, 2011)

Its a small surface skimmer that attached onto my external pumps outlet. Inside the fish tank where the water is drawn out it attached to that. I mean it doesnt do a whole lot of water per hour, but its doing the job! Top of water is already clean. I mean once i add fish this might change but something is better than nothing.


Good suggestion on the RO/DI I'll make sure I ask those questions when he comes over saturday!


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## reefsahoy (Jul 16, 2010)

vashachiroku said:


> Its a small surface skimmer that attached onto my external pumps outlet. Inside the fish tank where the water is drawn out it attached to that. I mean it doesnt do a whole lot of water per hour, but its doing the job! Top of water is already clean. I mean once i add fish this might change but something is better than nothing.
> 
> 
> Good suggestion on the RO/DI I'll make sure I ask those questions when he comes over saturday!


 
naw, the surface skimmer works 100% of the time! even if it's a small amount of water continuously overflowing into it. one other thing that can happen is that if the surface is not agitated then the water can become caught in a area where it countiuously rotate in the area and never gets to the skimming cup. if this happens you'll see the slime on a portion of the surface that never gets to the cup. what you do there is put power heads at the surface to create a current that mixes the surface continuously and direct the flow to the collection cup.


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## reefsahoy (Jul 16, 2010)

did you get the ro?


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