# How does Prime work?



## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

A knowledgeable keeper explained to me that Prime detoxifies ammonia (NH3) by adding a hydrogen ion, thus converting it to ammonium (NH4). I assumed, because ammonium cannot exist in a pH >6.5 or so, that it loses this ion and converts back to ammonia---faster, if the pH is higher.

However, on the Seachem Prime site, I came across this:
" Prime works by removing chlorine from the water and then binds with ammonia until it can be consumed by your biological filtration (chloramine minus chlorine = ammonia). _The bond is not reversible _and ammonia is still available for your bacteria to consume. Prime will not halt your cycling process."

The italics are mine. This oversimplified explanation does not square with my admittedly rudimentary understanding of the chemistry involved.

Can anyone set me straight?


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

So what's your question? 

Chloramine is NH2Cl so when the Chlorine (Cl) is stripped there is still Ammonia to deal with, which another chemical in Prime will make into Ammonium (NH4) regardless of pH for a period of ~24-48 hours. The Chlorine will never 'un-bind' and forever be 'safe' for the fish.

That 24 to 48 hours is usually long enough for bacteria, or plants, to consume it and thus no longer be a problem.

This is only if your water has Chloramine, if your water uses regular old Chlorine then no ammonia is formed, the Chlorine is just binded and the ammonia detoxifying chemical is doing nothing. This is a reason to consider not using Prime so you don't add chemicals that are not needed.


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

Thanks for the chemical type explanation of prime.

One of the considerations is to test a tank for ammonia then treat for that ammonia one time only per instructions.

Or as I prefer to just add fast growing live plants to consume the ammnoia quickly.

What can happen is that you add prime (or other dechlor/ammonia locks) then test for ammonia and find ammonia is still there. Because most test kits (exclucing the seachem multi test ammonia kit) test do not distinguish between the dangerous free ammonia and safer locked ammonia. 

So still having ammonia you add more prime and repeat.

All the while that first test locked up all the ammonia and all subsquet doses were unnecessary.

And all dechlor/ammonia locks have bad side effect such as locking up oxygen. So you can wind up suffocating your fish which gives the same symptoms as ammonia.

So IMHO the best thing for the fish is to simple start the tank with lotsa fast growing plants. That way ammonia is rapidily consumed which also reduces carbon dioxide and returns oxygen. So that each 24 hour period the tank actually becomes a net consumer of carbon dioxide and producer of oxygen. Then as the tank matures and ammonia is consumed by bacteria, the plants get their nitrogen from the resulting nitrates. And if something goes bump in the night later the plants rapidily consume any ammonia spike breaking up not only that spike but possible crashes as well.


my .02


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

Thank you both for your considered replies. But my question remains unanswered. 

The treatment of the chloramine and the treatment of ammonia are more properly dealt with separately, as Geomancer has done. I believe chlorine can forever be "bound," but I'm not sure that adding a hydroxyl to ammonia to create ammonium is a permanent change or why that should be.

API's explanation seems to concatenate these two processes, so their answer is more confusing than helpful. In their very next sentence, API admits to not understanding how Prime detoxifies nitrite. Admitting this on their company website, while admirably honest, does nothing to enhance their credibility when explaining other processes.

Nor do they detail why their ammonia-to-ammonium effect lasts 24 to 48 hours. That 100% margin of error makes me wonder what else they can't or won't explain.

I know about converting ammonia to ammonium; about salicylate test kits reading all NH3/4 as free ammonia (NH3); about percentage of free ammonia relative to pH. 

But what happens to the all that ammonium? Surely it doesn't remain ammonium at 7.6pH.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

I am great admirer of aquatic gardeners; dirt gardeners, as well. Unfortunately, some of us lack that certain feeling when it comes to green, growing things. I'm lucky to be able to achieve and maintain a secure and stable nitrogen cycle for the health of my fish. I can keep Anubias alive. That's about it.

People like beaslbob and OldFishLady and Byron, who have the capacity and feeling to grow things, are truly blessed.


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## Quantum (Jul 23, 2011)

the ammonia/ammonium ratio is usually pH dependent, what Seachem is implying is that their product converts ammonia to some compound other than ammonium that is harmless, stable and can still be acted on by nitrogen cycle bacteria


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I have corresponded with Seachem on the issue of Prime so perhaps this rather simple explanation may help. I told them I was not a chemist and didn't want to get bogged down in convoluted equations, so they kept it simple for me.

Prime "detoxifies" ammonia, nitrite and nitrate by binding them somehow. In the case of ammonia, it becomes ammonium, which is basically harmless. Nitrosomonas bacteria will use ammonia or ammonium, whichever is present, and live plants the same [plants prefer ammonium as their nitrogen source, and have the ability to take up ammonia and convert it into ammonium]. As for nitrite and nitrate, Seachem stated they are not really certain how this works themselves, but there is some sort of binding. And here again, bacteria can still take them up.

Second, Prime is effective for a limited period. Seachem suggested 24-48 hours, with 36 hours perhaps being safer. The idea behind using Prime if you have ammonia, nitrite or nitrate in the source water (or in the aquarium as during the initial cycle) is that it will render all three harmless for 24-36 hours. If the substances are still present after this period, they will "unbind" so to speak, and become toxic. But in a normal balanced aquarium the plants and/or bacteria should be able to handle the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate introduced in the source water at a water change by the time Prime wears out. In new cycling tanks, additional water changes using Prime perhaps daily will be needed until the bacteria is established sufficiently to handle the ammonia and nitrite. But here, if live plants are present in sufficient quantity with some fast grtowers, they will be able to deal with the ammonia [with a minimal fish stocking obviously] and nitrite is not a byproduct with plants, which is why live plants in new tanks are so important.

The chlorine and chloramine is a bit different; it remains detoxified.

A final few words on the ammonia/ammonium. The pH does affect this. At an acidic pH, below 7, the ammonia naturally occurring from fish respiration, breakdown of organics, etc will be in the "safe" ammonium form. Plants and bacteria will take it up. But the fish will not be affected because it is ammonium. But in a basic pH, above 7, it remains ammonia [except when Prime or a similar product is present]. So if Prime is used and the pH is above 7, the ammonia is bound into ammonium for 24-36 hours, after which it will "unbind" back into toxic ammonia in the basic pH.

Byron.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

The thing about chemistry is that it's not black and white. You can still have ammonium in your water at pH 7.5, and you can still have ammonia in the water at pH 6.5. These things work more in ratios.
Here's a cute little graph I found as an example:








The legend shows what your classic test kit would read, and the value of "true free ammonia" is the amount of NH3 actually in the water.. 

In regards to temperature.. I'll take a guess and say at higher temperatures, ammonium levels rise. Prime does say to use less in temperatures over 86F. :shock:

All I can say is Prime is a mystery. :lol:


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## Quantum (Jul 23, 2011)

If all prime did was covert ammonia to ammonium by adding a proton, it would have to be due to pH change and the resulting ammonium would be subject to further changes in pH.

I've never used Prime, but I assume the instructions or packaging makes no mention of the product affecting pH or that it's effects are only seen at certain pH levels so this suggests that something other than simple ammonia to ammonium conversion is occurring and that whatever compound is created is not pH dependent as is NH3/NH4+


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## Quantum (Jul 23, 2011)

double post


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

So, apparently, Prime does several things: separates chloramine into ammonia and chlorine in a reduction process, and "somehow" binds or otherwise renders the chlorine harmless; does something, unclear even to Seachem (sheesh!), to make nitrite harmless and, central to my inquiry, converts ammonia into ammonium.

The explanation on Seachem's website is ambiguous, unclear and, in fact, misleading: “...including an ammonia binder to _detoxify_ the ammonia.” The fact (?) that Prime converts NH3 into NH4 (not some unstated mystery compound) was confirmed by Byron in his correspondence with Seachem. Amquel and other conditioners do this as well, so there's no mystery there.

As far as I know, ammonium is ammonium is NH4+. There is no long-lasting, "non-reversible" form. It will remain NH4 at low pH and revert to NH3 at higher pH to a degree congruent with Olympia's graph and this table: CNYKOI - Ammonia calculator

There remains the 24 to 48 hour trope. Seachem uses vague wording, saying “Prime _dissipates_ from your system within 24 hours.” Does it keep converting NH3 to NH4 until it’s used up? Does this timing relate to the reconversion of NH4 to NH3 (and is, therefore, pH and perhaps temperature dependent)? There are at least two ways to find out:

Ask Seachem. But with their record of unclear explication, I wouldn’t trust their answer to be straightforward and unambiguous.

Purchase some Seachem Multitest: Seachem. MultiTest: Ammonia and test hourly for 24 hours. Repeat at at increasing pH in order to develop a chart that Seachem could, but probably wouldn’t, provide.

If this makes any sense to you, nod your head. If you generally agree with it, raise your hand.


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## Kim (Apr 30, 2008)

Wait- if prime removes the Cl from NH2Cl, then only an amino group would be left (NH2), not ammonia (NH3). Perhaps a hydrogen ion then binds to the NH2?


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

Hallyx,

I still don't understand what your concern is. Seachem never says anywhere that it permanantly makes ammonia safe.

It makes it safe long enough for either A) Plants to use it or B) Nitrifying bacteria to use it. So by the time the Ammon*ium* unbinds back to Ammon*ia* (based on pH) ... there isn't any Ammonium left in the tank anyways.

The exact same can be said for every single other conditioner that claims it works for Chloramine and Ammonia.

The conditioners that only say they take care of Chlorine and Chloromine ... don't do anything and leave the ammonia as-is.


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## Quantum (Jul 23, 2011)

You state that ammonimum is ammonium and it is pH dependent, so at higher pH levels ammonium will convert to ammonia. Then you claim that Seachem has developed some novel way of creating ammonium that behaves differently, that won't convert to ammonia at higher pH levels and you think that is plausible? If this isn't the case, then why use prime at higher pH levels, wouldn't the ammonium it creates convert to ammonia and wouldn't Seachem state that the product doesn't work at high pH? But you seem to believe that it won't, I guess because this is special ammonium that has some 'mysterious' properties. And this doesn't even address how it converts ammonia to ammonium with out affecting pH. If all it does is add a proton that proton has to come from somewhere, it necessarily would be by adding an acid.

Amquel (apparently Formaldehyde sodium bisulfite or sodium hydroxymethanesulfonate) does not turn NH3 to NH4+, the claim from Kordon (I haven't found it on Korndon's site, but have come across it on several others) is "The hydroxymethane end of the molecule reacts with ammonia to form a non-toxic, stable water-soluble substance which is acted upon by biological filtration", note that it say nothing of pH, which would be the case if it were just NH4+.

Nothing mysterious about it. In order for it to work as they claim, it must be something other than ammonium that is created.

As far as what they told Byron, so what? He stated in his inquiry that he was not a chemist. They also are a for profit business in a competitive market, you think they disclose proprietary (or licensed use of someone else's formula) info to anyone that asks?


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## Quantum (Jul 23, 2011)

Geomancer said:


> . So by the time the Ammon*ium* unbinds back to Ammon*ia* (based on pH) ....


so if it is pH based, how is it that Prime doesn't change the pH to achieve the conversion in the first place? or does it? if that is all it is doing (lowering the pH), why not just buy some HCl or some of the pH down stuff to do the same thing, the fish may not like it, but that is the only way to convert NH3 to NH4+ by protonation


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I only want to clarify a couple things so anyone reading this thread doesn't get the wrong idea.;-)

Quantum is not seriously suggesting you attempt to lower the pH [at least, I hope he isn't], as that is a very different set of issues. And fussing with pH can seriously harm fish, and kill them.

Prime clearly has a track record of working in any given tank, so I wouldn't worry about how it may be doing it. Understand what happens, and the 36-hour time frame for some aspects, and leave it at that.

My bottom line in all these products is, don't use what isn't necessary. Prime is a chemical soup and chemicals are going to affect water chemistry, perhaps plant growth, and likely fish. Don't add what isn't necessary. I never use Prime, and I never will, because I only have chlorine in my tap water and that is all I want to mess with. The biological system including bacteria and plants handle--or should if left alone without chemical after chemical--these issues. And nature usually does it better than our chemicals anyway. If you have chlorine and chloramine in your tap water, there are many water conditioners that handle these without going further.

Byron.


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## ZergyMonster (Feb 20, 2012)

I would like to add this, because it was mostly what I said that brought up this line of questioning.



> On Nov 26, 2012, at 2:06 AM "ZergyMonster" wrote:
> 
> > You have been contacted by Charles with regards to Prime by Seachem, their additional message is as follows.
> >
> ...





> Hello Charles,
> 
> Thank you for the email. Prime detoxifies ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate by converting them into a non-toxic iminium salt. If after 24-48 hours, the biological filter has not consumed the ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate, than yes, they will be re-released. This is why we always recommend during cycling to add Prime every 24-48 hours until the ammonia and nitrites are zero.
> 
> ...


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

I only raised the question here because a couple of friends may have incorrectly inferred that the detoxification of ammonia by Prime was a permanent condition. That inference was based upon information on the Seachem website, where they wrote,"Prime....binds with ammonia until it can be consumed by your biological filtration....The bond is not reversible...” This might suggest to some that, even if their readings indicate a rise in ammonia, it was still safe, because Seachem said their “detoxification” was “not reversible. I’ll bring that ambiguous and potentially dangerous phrase to Seachem’s attention. 

For me, the best one-line explanation came from a “reef” forum: “Prime is a hydrosulfide salt....which causes NH3 to pick up a hydrogen ion, forming NH4+(an iminium), which isn't really toxic. But the bond only last for about 48 hours.”

While a properly cycled and planted tank should be all that’s necessary to ensure healthy parameters, there are occasions—during the initiation of a cycle, during a minicycle, or some unforeseen occurrence---when a keeper might feel the need to resort to a chemical solution. 

As part of researching an answer, I thought to ask my question of the more experienced keepers who inhabit TFK. I thank you all for your for helping me clarify this issue.
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-aquarium/how-does-prime-work-120683/#ixzz2DWPuChi8
​


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## Quantum (Jul 23, 2011)

> “Prime is a hydrosulfide salt....which causes NH3 to pick up a hydrogen ion, forming NH4+(an iminium), which isn't really toxic. But the bond only last for about 48 hours.”


sounds familiar, funny how you liked this explanation, but felt my very similar one warranted sarcasm; note that an iminium salt (which is apparently more correct since it comes from Seachem product support) is not the same as ammonium


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

An iminium salt is a class of chemical compounds that includes ammonium.

I'm sorry I was unable to understand what you were trying to tell me in post #14. Perhaps, if you were to explain it to me in PM.....


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## Quantum (Jul 23, 2011)

if you can't accept that it is not an ammonia to ammonium conversion, there really is no point in trying to explain


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

Hallyx said:


> I am great admirer of aquatic gardeners; dirt gardeners, as well. Unfortunately, some of us lack that certain feeling when it comes to green, growing things. I'm lucky to be able to achieve and maintain a secure and stable nitrogen cycle for the health of my fish. I can keep Anubias alive. That's about it.
> 
> People like beaslbob and OldFishLady and Byron, who have the capacity and feeling to grow things, are truly blessed.


 
FWIW I find the less I do the better the plants grow.

From what I hear Anubias are slow growers so unless you have lotsa and lots of them you probably won't get the aquarium balanced out.

But that's just what I hear.

Worth at most.

.02


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