# 29 gallon planted nano



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

With my current tank doing amazingly well I've decided to start a new tank up and this time take the plunge and go planted. I'm planning to get a 29 gallon sometime this week and set it up with nano fish from Southeast Asia. There's so many choices for that, that I'm going to have to narrow them down some. Well actually a lot of narrowing down since I found a great store with a large nano selection.

I'm looking for small colorful fish so the favorites so far are:

Goldring danio
Glowlight danio
Hengels rasbora
Mosquito rasbora (how likely are Boraras to interbreed btw?)
Sundadanio axelrodi 'blue'
Yunnanilus cruciatus

Those are at the top and alread too many, although Dasiy's ricefish, Microdevario kubotai, and Horadandia aturkorali are also options for me. I don't even know if I'd do a centerpiece since I have a feeling any of the small, peaceful bettas or sparkling gourami would do well with the danios.

As for plants. I'm not sure. I don't know my hardness (need a test). I had thought maybe of a crypt only tank. The Sri Lankan species sound adaptable provided the tank is stable. I'm open to any ideas though.

Any suggestions for me in regards to either plants or stocking?


----------



## beetlebz (Aug 2, 2007)

i dont have much experience with nano fish, per se. But for plants... as long as your water isnt way off one direction or the other, theres lots of options if you wanted to stick to a SE asian biotope. Crypts are a blast, I love them personally, but most if not all of the rotalas will fit the bill, including wallichii, which I have and love. Most or all of the crypts, I believe wysteria (hygrophilia difformis) is asian, Java fern, java moss, dwarf hairgrass, im sure someone can point out 10 more i missed


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Those are some lovely fish, and I don't see any issues. But I would probably leave out any betta or gourami. When spawning these can be feisty.

On the Boraras interbreeding, yes, they will. These species should not be maintained together. I realize one could argue that in a home aquarium, who cares if they breed together or not. But random interbreeding is something that is discouraged among serious aquarists because there is always the danger that the resulting fry may get into the hobby. I have or have had three of the six Boraras species, and they have such a similar appearance that I would not want them mixed in one tank anyway.

Crypts would be ideal plants, along with water sprite floating. There are some aquascaping suggestions in some of our profiles for these fish, and I would be happy to provide further information if asked and assuming I can. The photo below is of myt former Asian setup that would suit these fish; this was a 33g but I had something nearly identical in a 29g.

Byron.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

beetlebz said:


> i dont have much experience with nano fish, per se. But for plants... as long as your water isnt way off one direction or the other, theres lots of options if you wanted to stick to a SE asian biotope. Crypts are a blast, I love them personally, but most if not all of the rotalas will fit the bill, including wallichii, which I have and love. Most or all of the crypts, I believe wysteria (hygrophilia difformis) is asian, Java fern, java moss, dwarf hairgrass, im sure someone can point out 10 more i missed


Thanks for the suggestions! 
I wasn't familiar with any ot the rotalas. I started looking them up and some of them do seem like possibilities. I'm hoping to go for medium light and avoid CO2 for the moment. Babysteps. If I have to I'm even willing to look at plants from other areas. I just decided to limit myself to SE Asian for both fish and plants in an effort to go crazy from all the possible choices.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Byron said:


> Those are some lovely fish, and I don't see any issues. But I would probably leave out any betta or gourami. When spawning these can be feisty.
> 
> On the Boraras interbreeding, yes, they will. These species should not be maintained together. I realize one could argue that in a home aquarium, who cares if they breed together or not. But random interbreeding is something that is discouraged among serious aquarists because there is always the danger that the resulting fry may get into the hobby. I have or have had three of the six Boraras species, and they have such a similar appearance that I would not want them mixed in one tank anyway.
> 
> ...


Thank for for the tip about the bettas. I had heard that some species like B. rutilans or B. coccina would work well in a communtiy of small fish, particularly Boraras and Trigonostigma. I had only worried about them being outcompeted for food by the danios.

I had just asked about the Boraras interbreeding since I had been told that if adequate shoals are kept of each that no hyrbids would occur. I was just curious if that was true. With all the options I have I'm certainly not going to go with species that are so similar looking. Speaking of all my options, do you have a suggestion as to the number of species that I should narrow things down to?

That is an absolutely beautiful tank! I was thinking I would need some taller plants that would nearly reach the surface, but the floating plants you have in there compensate for that and allow for more free swimming area...sorry just really new to plants and how you'd aquascape with them lol.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

blackwaterguy said:


> Thank for for the tip about the bettas. I had heard that some species like B. rutilans or B. coccina would work well in a communtiy of small fish, particularly Boraras and Trigonostigma. I had only worried about them being outcompeted for food by the danios.
> 
> I had just asked about the Boraras interbreeding since I had been told that if adequate shoals are kept of each that no hyrbids would occur. I was just curious if that was true. With all the options I have I'm certainly not going to go with species that are so similar looking. Speaking of all my options, do you have a suggestion as to the number of species that I should narrow things down to?
> 
> That is an absolutely beautiful tank! I was thinking I would need some taller plants that would nearly reach the surface, but the floating plants you have in there compensate for that and allow for more free swimming area...sorry just really new to plants and how you'd aquascape with them lol.


As all the regulars here know, I consider floating plants just about mandatory in almost any fish tank. Aside from their rapid use of ammonia/ammonium from the water and the fact they they release considerably more oxygen into the water (via their roots) than other plants, with the fish you are intending they must have cover. They spend a lot of time near the surface, grazing food from the plant roots and leaves, and they need the shade from the overhead light. Water Sprite is about the best floater; and fry can survive in its root masses. It also works very well if you can get a piece of wood standing so that it is close to the surface, then allow a Water Sprite to cling onto the wood and it will spread remarkably. Java Moss on wood also works.

You will want decent-sized groups of each species. These are small fish, and the more there are the better. I would say nine per species is the absolute minimum. Depending which ones you decide on, you could have 2, 3 or 4 upper-level species, plus the group of loaches. This all assumes lots of chunks of wood and branches.

If you can get one of the diminutive betta species, they will work. Earlier I jumped fast, when I see Betta I assume the worst;-) but some of the rarer species are fine with these others.

Inter-breeding can sometimes be prevented with sufficient;y-sized groups, but Boraras is a bit different according to my biologist friend, so I would stick with one of the six. I have not found these species easy, not sure why; my water parameters are ideal for these.

Hereès the same basic aquascape only in the 29g, I moved it from the 33g.

Byron.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Byron said:


> As all the regulars here know, I consider floating plants just about mandatory in almost any fish tank. Aside from their rapid use of ammonia/ammonium from the water and the fact they they release considerably more oxygen into the water (via their roots) than other plants, with the fish you are intending they must have cover. They spend a lot of time near the surface, grazing food from the plant roots and leaves, and they need the shade from the overhead light. Water Sprite is about the best floater; and fry can survive in its root masses. It also works very well if you can get a piece of wood standing so that it is close to the surface, then allow a Water Sprite to cling onto the wood and it will spread remarkably. Java Moss on wood also works.
> 
> You will want decent-sized groups of each species. These are small fish, and the more there are the better. I would say nine per species is the absolute minimum. Depending which ones you decide on, you could have 2, 3 or 4 upper-level species, plus the group of loaches. This all assumes lots of chunks of wood and branches.
> 
> ...


Yes sir, I've read your profiles enough and lurked on the forum to know how you like plants.  It really does seem pretty mandatory for nano fish, which is why I'm finally willing to take the plunge. The water sprite certainly seems perfect for what I'd like to do. Right now I'm thinking of that, crypts, java fern, and java moss. I'm unsure exactly which varieties/species I'll be able to find, especially of crypts.

I knew the danios and the Hengels were upper level, but was unsure of the others. So I picked only upper level fish? Did I miss any SE Asian species that would be midlevel? I've never actually seen any of these species in person (I'm ordering online), so I don't know if 30+ fish swimming in the upper half of the tank would make it look crowded.

Those diminuitive bettas would be ok when breeding as well? Or should I be thinking at max one fish so that there's no chance of breeding?

One last question if you don't mind me asking, what type of driftwood is that in your pictures? The Malaysian I have in my current tank is chunky and not what I would want. I've been debating either DYI or manzanita.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

blackwaterguy said:


> Yes sir, I've read your profiles enough and lurked on the forum to know how you like plants.  It really does seem pretty mandatory for nano fish, which is why I'm finally willing to take the plunge. The water sprite certainly seems perfect for what I'd like to do. Right now I'm thinking of that, crypts, java fern, and java moss. I'm unsure exactly which varieties/species I'll be able to find, especially of crypts.
> 
> I knew the danios and the Hengels were upper level, but was unsure of the others. So I picked only upper level fish? Did I miss any SE Asian species that would be midlevel? I've never actually seen any of these species in person (I'm ordering online), so I don't know if 30+ fish swimming in the upper half of the tank would make it look crowded.
> 
> ...


Small fish frequently tend to like it near the surface with the protection of floating plants. Of those you initially listed and I know of from personal experience, the Hengels Rasbora is mid-water, almost exclusively. They rarely go near the substrate, in fact I don't think I've ever seen my group of 10 near the bottom. The Boraras species will be among plants, but tend to stay in the upper half of the tank.

On the rare betta, having no experience myself I would refer you to those who do. Someone in the Betta forum may know of these.

That piece of wood is now collecting dust. I had serious fungus issues with it twice, and finally removed it. I thought it was Mopani wood, but in hindsight it might actually be grapewood which is notorious for toxic fungus. All the other wood in my tanks is Malaysian Driftwood, I've never had issues with it. It is hard to find branches though. I will be collecting some dry branches in the woods this Spring if I can find what I'm looking for.

Byron.


----------



## bigehugedome (Aug 2, 2010)

Byron said:


> Small fish frequently tend to like it near the surface with the protection of floating plants. Of those you initially listed and I know of from personal experience, the Hengels Rasbora is mid-water, almost exclusively. They rarely go near the substrate, in fact I don't think I've ever seen my group of 10 near the bottom. The Boraras species will be among plants, but tend to stay in the upper half of the tank.
> 
> 
> Byron.


Now that I think of it my Hengles Rasbora have never been near the bottom. Even when all my other fish pick at wafers and pellets the rasbora are always in the middle. Neat!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

I'm working on a list of lowlight plants from the region right now just to see what my options are. I have to do further research but right now this is my list:Cryptocoryne affinis, Cryptocoryne aponogetifolia, Cryptocoryne balansae, Cryptcoryne becketii, Cryptocoryne lutea, Cryptocoryne petchii, Cryptocoryne pygmaea, Cryptocoryne retrospiralis, Cryptocoryne spiralis, Cryptocoryne walkeri, Cryptocoryne wendtii, Cryptocoryne willisi, Cryptocoryne pontederiifolia, Cryptocoryne undulata, Java Fern, Java Moss, Watersprite, Rotala indica, Rotala rotundifolia, Rotala rotundifolia sp. 'Green', and Aponogeton crispus. Would a 20W Life-Glo T8 be sufficient to grow any of these? Or will I need a better lighting system for a 29 gallon? I have read the stickies here, but lighting still confuses me a little.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

blackwaterguy said:


> I'm working on a list of lowlight plants from the region right now just to see what my options are. I have to do further research but right now this is my list:Cryptocoryne affinis, Cryptocoryne aponogetifolia, Cryptocoryne balansae, Cryptcoryne becketii, Cryptocoryne lutea, Cryptocoryne petchii, Cryptocoryne pygmaea, Cryptocoryne retrospiralis, Cryptocoryne spiralis, Cryptocoryne walkeri, Cryptocoryne wendtii, Cryptocoryne willisi, Cryptocoryne pontederiifolia, Cryptocoryne undulata, Java Fern, Java Moss, Watersprite, Rotala indica, Rotala rotundifolia, Rotala rotundifolia sp. 'Green', and Aponogeton crispus. Would a 20W Life-Glo T8 be sufficient to grow any of these? Or will I need a better lighting system for a 29 gallon? I have read the stickies here, but lighting still confuses me a little.


I would say this should work. I've not grown Rotala myself, but it is reported as a moderate light plant and other moderate light plants do fine in my 29g with this tube.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

How many plants is too many? I have no clue when it comes to aquascaping with plants so I stole a design layout that was being sold and changed it for lowlight (can post it if anyone cares)...long story short is I have 11 plant species for a 29 gallon.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

blackwaterguy said:


> How many plants is too many? I have no clue when it comes to aquascaping with plants so I stole a design layout that was being sold and changed it for lowlight (can post it if anyone cares)...long story short is I have 11 plant species for a 29 gallon.


This is difficult to answer. In tanks where you want to create a swamp or flooded forest aquascape, more plants is ideal. In tanks where there are fish that are active swimmers, some open spaces is necessary. It also depends upon the plant species. Not all plants will grow together; some plants release chemicals that "attack" other species, what is called alleopathy. I have very little experience in this area, though I do know some plants never seem to do well together--and before you ask which, I honestly can't remember.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Byron said:


> This is difficult to answer. In tanks where you want to create a swamp or flooded forest aquascape, more plants is ideal. In tanks where there are fish that are active swimmers, some open spaces is necessary. It also depends upon the plant species. Not all plants will grow together; some plants release chemicals that "attack" other species, what is called alleopathy. I have very little experience in this area, though I do know some plants never seem to do well together--and before you ask which, I honestly can't remember.


I'm shooting for a flooded forest/lagoon. I thought it would both look nice and work well since I'm planning fish that are said to be more shy. The reason I had asked was that I had e-mailed a very good pet store about which plants they had, and was told my list sounded like a lot but could work. That just made me wonder. I have heard some about alleopathy, but like you can't remember which species. Mostly what I had heard was that with normal PWCs it wasn't ever a problem.

I think I've gotten more anxious about my ability to aquascape than I am about my ability to keep the plants alive, since I don't have any fear of that after plenty of research on here. I think I may just give the plan a go. If you're curious it'll look like this. Picture from freshwateraquariumplants.com










My changes:
V30- Cryptocoryne spiralis
R30- Rotala indica
H40- Cryptocoryne lucens
C321- Cryptocoryne willisi
H170- Cryptocoryne balansae
M40- Microsorium pteropus
B40- Aponogeton crispus
R10- Rotala rotundifolia 
C421- Cryptocoryne wendtii bronze
C406- Cryptocoryne wendtii green
Not pictured and floating- Ceratopteris thalictroides


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

The Aponogeton crispus front and centre will (should) get tallish, so you may want to reposition that more off to a side.

Something I forgot previously when commenting on too many plants, is that fewer species in an aquarium will look more natural. In natural habitats with very few exceptions, one generally finds no more than 1, 2 or maybe 3 main species in a stream. Having several crypt species is a bit different, though again this would never occur in nature. But then we do want a bit of "show" in a planted aquarium, so the degree to which the aquarist adheres to "natural" can vary a lot, from replicate to stylized replication. 

And many of the substrate-rooted plants will naturally spread via runners. For example, all those crypts will spread, slowly generally speaking with crypts, but they will if they are left alone. When I reset my 90g last April as a river habitat, I stuck maybe 5 Cryptocoryne undulata [I think this is the species, never sure with some crypts] along the right front half, and a few Corkscrew Vallisneria on the left side. The latter spread fairly rapidly of course, even for my very soft water, and this month I decided it was time to thin it out, as it had by now, a year later, spread right across the front of the tank and was thickly intertwined with the crypts. So a couple week ago I pulled up all the Vallisneria. I was amazed to find no less than 15 crypts, and all a decent size. The original plants had sent out runners though I had not really noticed due to the thick Vallisneria coverage.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Byron said:


> The Aponogeton crispus front and centre will (should) get tallish, so you may want to reposition that more off to a side.
> 
> Something I forgot previously when commenting on too many plants, is that fewer species in an aquarium will look more natural. In natural habitats with very few exceptions, one generally finds no more than 1, 2 or maybe 3 main species in a stream. Having several crypt species is a bit different, though again this would never occur in nature. But then we do want a bit of "show" in a planted aquarium, so the degree to which the aquarist adheres to "natural" can vary a lot, from replicate to stylized replication.
> 
> And many of the substrate-rooted plants will naturally spread via runners. For example, all those crypts will spread, slowly generally speaking with crypts, but they will if they are left alone. When I reset my 90g last April as a river habitat, I stuck maybe 5 Cryptocoryne undulata [I think this is the species, never sure with some crypts] along the right front half, and a few Corkscrew Vallisneria on the left side. The latter spread fairly rapidly of course, even for my very soft water, and this month I decided it was time to thin it out, as it had by now, a year later, spread right across the front of the tank and was thickly intertwined with the crypts. So a couple week ago I pulled up all the Vallisneria. I was amazed to find no less than 15 crypts, and all a decent size. The original plants had sent out runners though I had not really noticed due to the thick Vallisneria coverage.


I'm not very fond of where the Aponogeton crispus is in that picture. I had been thinking slightly to the left and behind the curved piece of driftwood I had. My hope was that it would serve as a good focal point if I placed it at a third of the tank's length. Or do you believe that would still be out of place?


I suppose I'm trying for stylized natural, unless by that you mean Amano. I was pretty excited at having a blueprint, but some simplification could be in order. You have me sold on the waterspirte so I'd like to keep that. I'm unsure if the spiralis and balanasae would be a bad idea with the watersprite as they would grow along the surface. Think that would be a mess? If not I could also lose the Rotala rotundifolia. In that case I could have the balansae and spiralis on either side of the back with the Rotala indica in between for some contrast. I could also just jumble up the smaller crypts randomly or get rid of some.

As for the runners...well this is me speaking right now, but I'd be ecstatic to have that problem. Ask me in a year though and my feelings might have changed lol.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

> I'm not very fond of where the Aponogeton crispus is in that picture. I had been thinking slightly to the left and behind the curved piece of driftwood I had. My hope was that it would serve as a good focal point if I placed it at a third of the tank's length. Or do you believe that would still be out of place?


I was just observing that it will get tall (or should). You can always move it afterwards.



> I suppose I'm trying for stylized natural, unless by that you mean Amano. I was pretty excited at having a blueprint, but some simplification could be in order. You have me sold on the waterspirte so I'd like to keep that. I'm unsure if the spiralis and balanasae would be a bad idea with the watersprite as they would grow along the surface. Think that would be a mess? If not I could also lose the Rotala rotundifolia. In that case I could have the balansae and spiralis on either side of the back with the Rotala indica in between for some contrast. I could also just jumble up the smaller crypts randomly or get rid of some.


I was only making observations, in response to your post about too many plants. And by stylized nature, I was trying to find a phrase for an aquascape based on a geographical area but not a true biotope. My tanks are all like this, my Amazonian have all fish and plants from the Amazon, but no where would you ever find this combination. A true biotope would be true to a particular stream or river, or some specific region. And in these you would never find so many plants and fish species.

I don't have particularly good luck with crypts. The runners mentioned earlier are quite a surprise to me. But that is a fairly hardy crypt, and once planted i did leave it alone, which is what crypts like.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

I've spent a few weeks now constantly looking up plants and pretty much driving myself nuts. On the plus side I think I might actually be able to start IDing some of the ones I'm constantly looking up. I'm definitely opening up to plants from other regions I just would like to try and simplify a bit at least. In that vain, and hoping to finally finalise the idea in my head I have some questions I hope someone on here might be willing to answer.

My only hardscape right now is a 6 inch curved, almost U-shaped, piece of driftwood. I should probably get more but as of right now that's it. I'm hoping to make it a centerpoint even though it is low to the ground.

Now for my questions.

1. I really like the Apogenton crispus and don't mind if it grows along the top. Would it be best placed in one of the back corners?

2.If I'm not using the crispus as a centerpiece are there any suggestions for something I can? For instance a lowlight sword that won't grow to big (yeah not asking for much there am I?) or perhaps a small lily, etc.

3.Would a group of one or two bunched plants like Rotala indica or Wisteria look out of place amongst a variety of crypts?

4.Speaking of the crypts would they look best in seperate groups or mixed together? By that I mean both varieties (wendtii green, bronze, red, whatever else I could find that isn't Florida sunset) and similar sized species (undulata, wendtii, ponterderiifolia, etc). 

I think with some answers there I might finally be able to come up with a plan to run by everyone.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

> 1. I really like the Apogenton crispus and don't mind if it grows along the top. Would it be best placed in one of the back corners?


I would say close to a back corner.



> 2.If I'm not using the crispus as a centerpiece are there any suggestions for something I can? For instance a lowlight sword that won't grow to big (yeah not asking for much there am I?) or perhaps a small lily, etc.


In small tanks (like a 29g) I tend to avoid any largish plants as it immediately encloses the space making it seem even smaller. My suggestion would be to make the wood the centrepiece (though not centred in the tank obviously) and plant around it.



> 3.Would a group of one or two bunched plants like Rotala indica or Wisteria look out of place amongst a variety of crypts?


Wisteria is higher light. Most stem plants are, and they are fast growing which can sometimes be more problematic in smallish tanks.



> 4.Speaking of the crypts would they look best in seperate groups or mixed together? By that I mean both varieties (wendtii green, bronze, red, whatever else I could find that isn't Florida sunset) and similar sized species (undulata, wendtii, ponterderiifolia, etc).


These are definitely grouping plants. They will look more "natural" in groups of the same species, but you can mix the species but still having 3 or so plants of each species. As mentioned previously in this thread, as they settle they will send out runners and form a natural clump as they do in nature.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Thank you very much Bryon 

Here's my almost complete plan. I'm going to have the driftwood at the golden ratio (1:1.62 I think) with the open end of the U facing the front of the tank. On the driftwood I will have Windelov java fern. Inside the framing of the driftwood I think I will put either a Echinodorus sword 'tropica' or a Nymphaea stelleta, since I think both stay small. If it's the lily I will train it not to grow to the surface.
On the short side (right of the driftwood I'll have C. undulata with a v-shaped grouping of C. retrospiralis behind it. 
On the longer side of the tank (left of the driftwood) I'll have the cripus towards the back corner. In the midground I will have C. wendtii bronze and green since I think the red might grow to large. If I am still in need of a foreground plant (no idea if I am) then it will be C. petchii. 

The center back is where I could still use suggestions. My thought was stem plants, since I could keep them trimmed lower than what I had to either side and hopefully create the look of dpeth. I had seen Wisteria listed on a plant forum as low light (no mention of how it looked in those conditions though  ). Perhpas something else though? The Rotala indica or maybe Egeria najas? Is there something else I could use to create a concave shape besides a stem plant? Everything I can think of would grow as high, but couldn't be trimmed except but cutting off the whole leaf.

Perhaps it's still too many species but at least it's better. Any thoughts from anyone?


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Sounds good. For the back, sometimes it is best to leave it open. Seeing through to the back, esp if black non-shiny like construction paper, can increase the sense of depth. Also, floating plants are in my view mandatory for forest fish, and Water Sprite with its dangling roots fills in spaces nicely.

When I researched Wisteria for our profile I took the majority opinion on light and it was moderate-bright. From my experience, I would agree. I don't have sufficient light to keep this plant beyond a few months.

Byron.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Byron said:


> Sounds good. For the back, sometimes it is best to leave it open. Seeing through to the back, esp if black non-shiny like construction paper, can increase the sense of depth. Also, floating plants are in my view mandatory for forest fish, and Water Sprite with its dangling roots fills in spaces nicely.
> 
> When I researched Wisteria for our profile I took the majority opinion on light and it was moderate-bright. From my experience, I would agree. I don't have sufficient light to keep this plant beyond a few months.
> 
> Byron.


Perfect. I did forget to mention the Water Sprite. I've long been sold on that and have found it on sale online. I'm liking the lily since in low light it should appear reddish and grow slow. I can trim it to make sure. I'm totally unsure of the size of the wendtii so I may put them more towards the back and have becketii in front. Now I'm just left to figure out the numbers of everything to buy.

When I hear lowlight I automatically (right or wrong) assume low tech. Researching further I'm thinking that was not the case with the list I saw. Seems as if some of those low light plants were grown with CO2. I'm definitely letting go of the idea of stem plants.

Is there a preferred method of cycling when it comes to crypts? Obviously I'd like to avoid crypt melt if I can (not sure if that's possible). I have the new media in my old filter so it's building up bacteria. It's my hope that since I'll be ordering online that I'll be able to order a decent amount of fish at the first go.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

> When I hear lowlight I automatically (right or wrong) assume low tech. Researching further I'm thinking that was not the case with the list I saw. Seems as if some of those low light plants were grown with CO2. I'm definitely letting go of the idea of stem plants.


Natural CO2 in a healthy aquarium will usually be sufficient to match lower light intensities. I had a discussion with Tom Barr about this once, and he suggested that in most moderately stocked and planted tanks the CO2 would be sufficient for several hours, and likely begin to wane by mid-afternoon. This is only an estimate of course. I have my lights on for 8-9 hours and so far this seems to be balancing the CO2, all natural. I use algae as the guide, since once the CO2 is exhausted and plants can't photosynthesize, algae will take advantage. But if the light is not intense, even minimal CO2 near the end of the photo period would presumably suffice.

You can add CO2 to a low-light system, but the plants can only photosynthesize if everything is available, up to the point when something is no longer there. If the CO2 continues past that point, it is being wasted, and I see no point in pumping CO2 into a fish tank unnecessarily. It can poison the fish if it increases too far. But in tanks with very low fish numbers, adding CO2 might prove beneficial. But I think most would agree that low light implies no added CO2 in most cases.



> Is there a preferred method of cycling when it comes to crypts? Obviously I'd like to avoid crypt melt if I can (not sure if that's possible). I have the new media in my old filter so it's building up bacteria. It's my hope that since I'll be ordering online that I'll be able to order a decent amount of fish at the first go.


There is no way to prevent crypt melt except by never disturbing the plants or allowing any changes to the environment (water, light, nutrients, pH, hardness, etc). Some species and even plants are more susceptible than others. I have moved crypts with no melt occurring; but the same crypts have melted within a day when the pH changed suddenly during a water change.

Remember that with live plants, you do not have a discernible cycle. When planted, add some fish and fertilizer and you're on the way.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Byron said:


> Natural CO2 in a healthy aquarium will usually be sufficient to match lower light intensities. I had a discussion with Tom Barr about this once, and he suggested that in most moderately stocked and planted tanks the CO2 would be sufficient for several hours, and likely begin to wane by mid-afternoon. This is only an estimate of course. I have my lights on for 8-9 hours and so far this seems to be balancing the CO2, all natural. I use algae as the guide, since once the CO2 is exhausted and plants can't photosynthesize, algae will take advantage. But if the light is not intense, even minimal CO2 near the end of the photo period would presumably suffice.
> 
> You can add CO2 to a low-light system, but the plants can only photosynthesize if everything is available, up to the point when something is no longer there. If the CO2 continues past that point, it is being wasted, and I see no point in pumping CO2 into a fish tank unnecessarily. It can poison the fish if it increases too far. But in tanks with very low fish numbers, adding CO2 might prove beneficial. But I think most would agree that low light implies no added CO2 in most cases.
> 
> ...


Tom Barr is a someone I need to read up on. I have heard mention of him many times before, specifically when it came to going higher light plants in a low light setup with CO2. I didn't think I'd ever be interested in live plants, but the more I study them the more interesting they become. I guess I'm growing as a hobbyist from the kid who had fish tanks but few books and no internet.

Another question if you don't mind, and I apologise for being annoying with all of them. The fixture I'm using is a single T8 that I already owned. I bought the 20W Life-Glo 2 bulb you recommended to go in it. I know this lighting will work. My question though is would I be better served by getting a dual T8 fixture? Would I see any difference in growth if doing that and still not using CO2? Many of the plants I'll be buying will be either bulbs or leafless.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

blackwaterguy said:


> Tom Barr is a someone I need to read up on. I have heard mention of him many times before, specifically when it came to going higher light plants in a low light setup with CO2. I didn't think I'd ever be interested in live plants, but the more I study them the more interesting they become. I guess I'm growing as a hobbyist from the kid who had fish tanks but few books and no internet.
> 
> Another question if you don't mind, and I apologise for being annoying with all of them. The fixture I'm using is a single T8 that I already owned. I bought the 20W Life-Glo 2 bulb you recommended to go in it. I know this lighting will work. My question though is would I be better served by getting a dual T8 fixture? Would I see any difference in growth if doing that and still not using CO2? Many of the plants I'll be buying will be either bulbs or leafless.


Tom is very knowledgeable on plants and such, but his approach is not my approach, we differ on many things, like water changes for one. Everyone has their particular take on planted tanks, but there are many ways to have a successful tank. I highly respect knowledgeable aquarists but I may not always agree with everything they hold; but I use their knowledge and expertise where I can to learn.

This is a 29g with low and moderate light plants. I would not add a second tube. I only have a siingle T8 tube, 24 inch, 20w over my 29g and it is doing very well. Doubling that would mean algae for sure, as the CO2 and nutrients could not balance.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Byron said:


> Tom is very knowledgeable on plants and such, but his approach is not my approach, we differ on many things, like water changes for one. Everyone has their particular take on planted tanks, but there are many ways to have a successful tank. I highly respect knowledgeable aquarists but I may not always agree with everything they hold; but I use their knowledge and expertise where I can to learn.
> 
> This is a 29g with low and moderate light plants. I would not add a second tube. I only have a siingle T8 tube, 24 inch, 20w over my 29g and it is doing very well. Doubling that would mean algae for sure, as the CO2 and nutrients could not balance.


Thank you once more. Lighting is still confusing to me, even after reading your articles and others. I know the watts per gallon rule is outdated. To be honest I'm not even sure if that rule applied to T12 or T8 as well. I thought the dual lighting would still have me in low lght, closer to moderate. Saving money is always good though. I will be fertilisizing. I have Flourish comprehensive now, but will be getting root tabs as well since I have many root feeders planned.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

blackwaterguy said:


> Thank you once more. Lighting is still confusing to me, even after reading your articles and others. I know the watts per gallon rule is outdated. To be honest I'm not even sure if that rule applied to T12 or T8 as well. I thought the dual lighting would still have me in low lght, closer to moderate. Saving money is always good though. I will be fertilisizing. I have Flourish comprehensive now, but will be getting root tabs as well since I have many root feeders planned.


The watts per gallon "guide" worked reasonably well when all we had were T12 (now T8) tubes in a basic spectrum, and over "average" sized tanks. [Though I never agreed with the numbers (2+ watts per gallon) and my tanks back in the 1980's were all below 1 wpg.] It never worked for small tanks (5, 10, 15, 20 gallon) or very large tanks. But today we have so many more energy-efficient types that produce more and more light with less energy--thus less wattage, because watts is only the measurement of energy used by a tube regardless of the light intensity. We have to consider the intensity and the spectrum.

The single T8 in a decent spectrum as you now have puts you in low to moderate, although these designations are debatable in themselves. My guide is always the fish; the less light the better, so start with the minimal light for the plants. And it is also less expense long-term, as less electricity is being used.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Now that I know my lighting is great I'm going to do some shopping online tomorrow. That should help prevent me from changing my mind again since I already found a hobbyist with C. willisii, lucens, and petchii for sale. The Aponogenton undulatus he has though is a tempting replacement for the Cryptocoryne retrospiralis I had been thinking. Fine they are all tempting and easy, but if I went that route I'd probably have a horrible aquascape.

Byron, I reread your profile for the Aponogenton cripus and you recommend them in a grouping. Would three be an ok number for a tank my size? I had originally been thinking one until I reread.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

blackwaterguy said:


> Now that I know my lighting is great I'm going to do some shopping online tomorrow. That should help prevent me from changing my mind again since I already found a hobbyist with C. willisii, lucens, and petchii for sale. The Aponogenton undulatus he has though is a tempting replacement for the Cryptocoryne retrospiralis I had been thinking. Fine they are all tempting and easy, but if I went that route I'd probably have a horrible aquascape.
> 
> Byron, I reread your profile for the Aponogenton cripus and you recommend them in a grouping. Would three be an ok number for a tank my size? I had originally been thinking one until I reread.


In a 29g I would go with one Aponogeton crispus.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Byron said:


> In a 29g I would go with one Aponogeton crispus.


Thank you. I'm going to assume the same would be true for the Aponogeton undulatus. Waiting on pics, but I'm thinking the plan is to order one each of the Aponogetons and the lily. Two java ferns. Three each of Cryptocoryne lucens, undulata, wendtii brown and wendtii green. Only thing I'm looking for yet is water sprite.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

blackwaterguy said:


> Thank you. I'm going to assume the same would be true for the Aponogeton undulatus. Waiting on pics, but I'm thinking the plan is to order one each of the Aponogetons and the lily. Two java ferns. Three each of Cryptocoryne lucens, undulata, wendtii brown and wendtii green. Only thing I'm looking for yet is water sprite.


This sounds good to me.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Bad picture but so far this is my hardscape. I hoping it looks like roots growing down, otherwise I should turn it the other way so it branches up. Not sure if that's sufficent, hardscapewise but it was all the driftwood I had that I liked for this tank.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

The first of my plants came in so I thought I'd show what I've done. I have crypt wendtii brown and green as well as crypt lucens. I think I planted everything correctly and put them in the right place (wasn't 100% sure which was which). Sorry about the flash in the first pic, that's why I'm putting in the second pic. Sadly you can see how I got water behind the background when I was installing the filter...ugh.


















The wendtii green looks bad, with almost no leaves but I expected that. The lucens though looks great and I hope it stays that way. I also received 4 extra apon bulbs ( no idea what species, probably a mix) that are going in the right back corner. I know Byron said to only have one, but they were free so I don't think it would hurt to try. I can always remove them.

Still waiting for delivery of water sprite (floating), C. retrospiralis (back left corner to help hide the filter), C. undulata (left side), and Nymphaea stellata (not sure where).

I could use a few suggestions. A good place for the lily, something nonsubstrate rooted to have around the base of the driftwood (think it would look better if it appears the driftwood is coming up through a plant as opposed to out of the ground), and what would look good if anything behind the driftwood.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I would space the crypts apart more. Also, if they came in pots, there is usually several separate plants bunched together, and these can be divided (when you remove the rock wool it will be obvious) and planted separately. About 1.5 to 2 inches apart works, the plants will get bushier and send out runners.

The shorter crypts I would have closer to the front or mid-tank. They will be lost in the back. Some of the shorter crypts around the base of the wood will look natural.

The lily could go in the right rear corner, or behind the wood if the wood is not too close to the walls. The floating leaves will grow up around the wood.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Byron said:


> I would space the crypts apart more. Also, if they came in pots, there is usually several separate plants bunched together, and these can be divided (when you remove the rock wool it will be obvious) and planted separately. About 1.5 to 2 inches apart works, the plants will get bushier and send out runners.
> 
> The shorter crypts I would have closer to the front or mid-tank. They will be lost in the back. Some of the shorter crypts around the base of the wood will look natural.
> 
> The lily could go in the right rear corner, or behind the wood if the wood is not too close to the walls. The floating leaves will grow up around the wood.


No pots, but they were in rockwool. I try to remove as much as I could without tearing the roots. I'll pull them up again and see if I can seperate them. The ones in the very front (i think the green wendtii) there isn't much too, very small roots as well as few leaves.

I think those are the brown wendtii in the back. I was told they get almost the size of the red variety, so I put them back there. I can move them front though if you think it would look better. I have no clue when it comes to this stuff.

The driftwood is partially buried. Would that affect something with a long root system like a crypt? Or would I be better off breaking the biotope and trying something like Anubias nana? Attached to a small, flat rock and placed around the wood. Also should I try growing something on the wood? No idea how that would look. I just like the idea of seeing the wood poking through some lush growth.

I got my second order of plants and seems like I got even more than I ordered, especially if I break down pots. I got 9 retrosprialis, 4 pots of undulata, 2 bunches of water sprite, and 2 lily bulbs.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Forget the anubias. I have a mess of plants and it looks like chaos. No need for more.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Not happy with the results and am unsure if I should let it grow in. More likely I want to move things around first. Right now it's giving me a petshop vibe.










As far as fish go, I saw Danionella translucida for sale. I've never heard of them before, but think they were be way too small. Thought they were interesting though.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Sometimes I fuss with layout for days.

On that (newish) fish, yes, it is not easy to combine with others, more info here:
Danionella dracula - Seriously Fish


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

After breaking apart the pots and groups I just have a ton of plants. I either need to get rid of some or plant them closer. There's no open space and things just look too orderly.

Thanks for the link. That's another new species to me. D. translucida seems to be even smaller than D. dracula. Wikipedia (if you want to trust it), says about 11 mm for the translucida. Here's the best page I could find about them. Danionella translucida: A Micro Glassfish | Details | Articles | TFH Magazine


----------



## Quantum (Jul 23, 2011)

I happen to be setting up a similar tank to what you are.

The crypts can be broken up into individual plants with just a few leaves per plant, I got about 20 plants out of one small bunch. Separated like this and planted more randomly will give a more natural look. This may be more difficult with your coarser gravel, I found that the long, angled forceps to be a big help.

Here are some of mine planted - not looking so good as they didn't like being uprooted - still have a lot more to add:


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Quantum said:


> I happen to be setting up a similar tank to what you are.
> 
> The crypts can be broken up into individual plants with just a few leaves per plant, I got about 20 plants out of one small bunch. Separated like this and planted more randomly will give a more natural look. This may be more difficult with your coarser gravel, I found that the long, angled forceps to be a big help.
> 
> Here are some of mine planted - not looking so good as they didn't like being uprooted - still have a lot more to add:


I hadn't realized that you could break them into that many plants. That is certainly a lot more natural looking then what I have going on right now. I hope I get to see your tank when you're done planting.

Sorry for the dumb question but where did you get the forceps? I've been just using my fingers. Long roots and the eco-complete are making that route difficult. Everytime I look in I notice some roots that I failed to bury enough.


----------



## Quantum (Jul 23, 2011)

I didn't either, I initially had them bunched together in clumps.

These make planting a lot easier, I have the curved ones:

Reef Aquarium & Planted Aquarium Care: Aquatic Forceps


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Thanks for the link. I'm going to have to order a pair.

I had been trying to do a checkerboard to start, but I had a ton of plants and that flew out the window quick. I ordered what the seller recommended and I certainly have a lot. I just have to make it work.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

I ordered the forceps Quantum recommended along with some root tabs. I know I'll be needing the root tabs eventually, but have no idea when I should start adding them.

The green wendtii is mush. The brwon wendtii is partial much. The lucens are show some holes in the leaves and a few tips of the retrospiralis are deteriorating. Totally expected and yet still annoying. If the plan is to add fish soon then I'll be lucky to have any leaves in the tank with them.

I'm not sure that a couple of days will make a difference, but I think I might try and aqascape again before the forceps arrive. That's a few more days for the crypts to be left alone. That's my thinking anyway, or rather my excuse for being impatient.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

When can I start to fertilize? Some of the water sprite fronds have turned brown, but I'm not sure if that's normal or not. I do plan to add a lot more water sprite to go through a silent cycle. I can always remove it later. I might have to remove some crypts as well, but for now they stay.

It is safe to order fish correct? I'm ordering from the Wet Spot since they have a seriously impressive list of fish I could be potentially interested in.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

The crypts will not recover soon enough to help in cycling, so the Water Sprite is it, and provided you cover the surface, it will do the job. I would make sure it is growing before adding fish, i.e., not dying but green. And yes, you want to fertilze as soon as plants are in, WS is a heavy user of nutrients which is why it is good for this. A liquid comprehensive is what you need for WS, prob mentioned this previously.

On the root tabs I would wait until you have the crypts where you want them. A few tabs spaced around the clumps of crypts (forgotten what the directions say, but don't overuse).


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Byron said:


> The crypts will not recover soon enough to help in cycling, so the Water Sprite is it, and provided you cover the surface, it will do the job. I would make sure it is growing before adding fish, i.e., not dying but green. And yes, you want to fertilze as soon as plants are in, WS is a heavy user of nutrients which is why it is good for this. A liquid comprehensive is what you need for WS, prob mentioned this previously.
> 
> On the root tabs I would wait until you have the crypts where you want them. A few tabs spaced around the clumps of crypts (forgotten what the directions say, but don't overuse).


 
Thank you. I only have two bunches of water sprite. I've already been looking into buying more. I was thinking four bunches, but can easily get mre than that. Maybe I will just to be safe.I have Seachem Flourish to use. Once week the day after the water change is what I think you said. Since I'll be waiting for plants to arrive should I be adding ammonia through any means in the mean time?Will I be able to see growth with just treated tapwater and fertilizer? 

Since I'm asking dumb questions like I'm clueless (wait I really almost am  ) I have another. I can get potted water sprite shipped to me probably quicker. Would I just cute the roots off if I do that or should I just look for bunches and wait?

I broke apart the crypts. I'm not entirely happy with where they are, but they are staying there until I see how they grow. It's much better than it had been, but I'm picky. I think it will look better once the grow in and I can rearrange/remove then. Now they are staying. Which means I guess I can add the root tabs when they arrive.

Byron, just on the off chance there's a fish you haven't heard of (besides my kitty tetras). I'm thinking about these guys instead of the dwarf hovering loaches. Hard to chose honestly but this was my new find of the day. "Tuberoschistura arakanensis" — Loaches Online


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

> Thank you. I only have two bunches of water sprite. I've already been looking into buying more. I was thinking four bunches, but can easily get mre than that. Maybe I will just to be safe.I have Seachem Flourish to use. Once week the day after the water change is what I think you said. Since I'll be waiting for plants to arrive should I be adding ammonia through any means in the mean time?Will I be able to see growth with just treated tapwater and fertilizer?


No on the ammonia. There actually is nitrogen in Flourish, though not much, but it will suffice initially. The fish and more than that the bacteria breaking down waste will soon supply ammonia.



> Since I'm asking dumb questions like I'm clueless (wait I really almost am  ) I have another. I can get potted water sprite shipped to me probably quicker. Would I just cute the roots off if I do that or should I just look for bunches and wait?


Not sure which species this would be. Planted in the substrate it will grow fast too, if it is the non-floating species. The floating is C. cornuta and it will grow planted but not as well. Don't cut off any roots of whichever.



> Byron, just on the off chance there's a fish you haven't heard of (besides my kitty tetras). I'm thinking about these guys instead of the dwarf hovering loaches. Hard to chose honestly but this was my new find of the day. "Tuberoschistura arakanensis" — Loaches Online


While Loaches Online is generally highly reliable, this entry is questionable. According to my biologist friend, this fish is more likely in the genus Yunnanilus, here's some info:
IG BSSW e.V. Eine Schmerle zum Züchten: die Myanmar-Zwergschmerle (Yunnanilus sp.) |
though the text is in German.;-) My German is not that good, so don't ask me what it says.

I have to go offline now, may be able to offer more tomorrow.

Byron.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Byron said:


> No on the ammonia. There actually is nitrogen in Flourish, though not much, but it will suffice initially. The fish and more than that the bacteria breaking down waste will soon supply ammonia.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Water sprite I have is C. thalictroides. It was just stems with no roots. The seller said it could be grown floating. The potted stuff would be the same speices. Is C. cornuta the only one that will grow floating?

My German is horrible. That loach was listed for sale as Burmese rosy loach-Yunnanilus sp. Loaches Online was simply the best page I could find on them, but it seems you've already heard of them.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

blackwaterguy said:


> The Water sprite I have is C. thalictroides. It was just stems with no roots. The seller said it could be grown floating. The potted stuff would be the same speices. Is C. cornuta the only one that will grow floating?
> 
> My German is horrible. That loach was listed for sale as Burmese rosy loach-Yunnanilus sp. Loaches Online was simply the best page I could find on them, but it seems you've already heard of them.


 
Sorry I found out about the Water sprite. Renaming and possible split of the old species, with most in the aquarium trade being C. cornuta but mislabeled as C. thalictroides?


----------



## CatSoup (Mar 1, 2012)

Byron said:


> Those are some lovely fish, and I don't see any issues. But I would probably leave out any betta or gourami. When spawning these can be feisty.
> 
> On the Boraras interbreeding, yes, they will. These species should not be maintained together. I realize one could argue that in a home aquarium, who cares if they breed together or not. But random interbreeding is something that is discouraged among serious aquarists because there is always the danger that the resulting fry may get into the hobby. I have or have had three of the six Boraras species, and they have such a similar appearance that I would not want them mixed in one tank anyway.
> 
> ...


This is beautiful. What is the long stemmed lily pad looking plant floating on the top? I would love to get some for my tank.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

blackwaterguy said:


> Sorry I found out about the Water sprite. Renaming and possible split of the old species, with most in the aquarium trade being C. cornuta but mislabeled as C. thalictroides?


As noted in the profile of Ceratopteris cornuta, there is considerable confusion over the species in this genus. But the leaf shape is usually the clue to the species. C. cornuta is the more common, whatever name it may be given, but both this and the two other sometimes encountered species C. pteridioides and C. thalictroides may be seen.

I have only maintained the C. cornuta myself, and grown it planted in the substrate as well as floating, so I can confirm what the other sources say that this species does grow better floating.

Having not maintained the other one or two species, I can't say but the sources say they do better planted. As i suggested to someone else in another thread a while back, try a plant floating and see. I would not expect it to not manage, so floating it is not likely to kill it.

Byron.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

CatSoup said:


> This is beautiful. What is the long stemmed lily pad looking plant floating on the top? I would love to get some for my tank.


That is the red tiger lotus, Nymphaea lotus, it is in the profiles (click the shaded name).


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Byron said:


> As noted in the profile of Ceratopteris cornuta, there is considerable confusion over the species in this genus. But the leaf shape is usually the clue to the species. C. cornuta is the more common, whatever name it may be given, but both this and the two other sometimes encountered species C. pteridioides and C. thalictroides may be seen.
> 
> I have only maintained the C. cornuta myself, and grown it planted in the substrate as well as floating, so I can confirm what the other sources say that this species does grow better floating.
> 
> ...


I'm not very good at botanical identification but the leaves do appear to me to be the same as the picture in the profile here. Some of the stems are doing better than others, but I fertilized yesterday so I'll see how that goes.

This is the best translation I could do of that German link that you posted yesterday, apologies that it's not better.

Loaches are a very successful fish family, the Europe, Asia and North Africa have settled with a variety of ways. Most species inhabit only small-scale habitats, many spacious common forms have been recognized as a complex of similar species. Constantly being discovered not only for the aquarium, but also for the new species. These discoveries include the kind presented here
Accompanying the fish recently described Zwergbärblinge Galaxy (Celestichthys margaritatus ROBERTS, 2007) is mentioned among other things, a loach from the genus Yunnanilus (Roberts, 2007, Evers 2007). In fact, were in an import shipment of nearly two thousand five hundred Celestichthys addition to a handful Microrasbora cf rubescens some small colorless fish. Three of them were in our home aquarium of 100 x 40 x 50 centimeters housed, which was already inhabited and six of 20 Celestichthys margaritatus jerdoni Hara. A head-strong horde of Shrimps (Caridina cf babaulti) are algae eaters than the green filamentous algae as short, but they grow in dense stands of Limnophila away, Vallisneria, and Pogostemon Moorkienholz.
The water of about 230 S / cm is moved by an external filter, the filter is equipped with the included masses of the company. The filter circuit is a UV clarifier. Carbon dioxide is added over a twelve-hour Sinterglasausströmer during the illumination phase (2 x 30 watt fluorescent tubes in the cover), the amount is adjusted according to the display of a CO2-duration tests with liquid indicator.
The pool in the wholesale colorless fish in an aquarium showed a drawing on a light background of small irregular points above a dense stationary points formed by dark lateral line. Without problems, they take everything in the appropriate size feed. We feed in the first place with a fine dry granules and small water fleas. On the girth, we tried to identify gender differences soon, but without success. So, but rather to clarify the question of identity: what we did there? Three pairs of barbels and fin rays, we had detected in one animal in the transport bag. Then it had to be an Loach. With the key on www.fishbase.org accessible for Asian Schmerlengattungen family Nemacheilidae we came up with the generic name Yunnanilus. This was confirmed by the first description of Celestichthys, are listed in the description in the accompanying fish habitat, and an article in the Amazon (Evers 2007), in which a male is depicted.
After a few days ago a co-worker encouraged the wholesale evident when cleaning a fourth loach from the filter of Celestichthys Basin. When this is set as described in the aquarium at night to the other animals, it was exciting. The newcomer was different in spite of its transport-related paleness by a yellowish coloration of the tail fin and its more delicate character of the three light-primed and quite plump now available. As one of these crossed his field, he followed her immediately. This was followed by hour-long hunting expeditions, which followed most of the new one of the ancients. If a sought and achieved, a followed nibbling "at the front shoulder of the dorsal fin on the belly or at the base of the anal fin, the, beknabberte" Loach sometimes presented by the stomach turns and S-Krümmugen. Once the new left here a sound like creaking leather hear what was indeed quiet but clearly audible. As the newcomer on the next day in a bright orange yellow showed and disappeared alternately with the other loaches in the overgrown by filamentous algae Vallisneria was clear that it was the lack of males to females of the three previously maintained.
Long evenings with magnifying glass pipette and followed in his hands. It was found that courtship and mating take place primarily in the evenings. Once the male encounters a female, it sips of this to the cloaca. In the majority of cases it turns off and then leaves the female alone. However, he has caught this action for a partner that already swims about frantically, instead of the other (s) slowly hovernd to explore the interior, he seems to like it. Now he begins to chase them frantically through the aquarium. On a tuft of algae or plants, they will at some point and curves are S-shaped. After further sips at the neck of the female - which can also fail - he overcomes them so that the sewers come to lie to each other and in this moment, under a trembling expelled to three eggs. Since the whole thing takes place with a "schmerlenartigen" rush into insane tempo, photography is very difficult. After several pairings takes the enthusiasm among the partners slowly and they get distracted and more often, especially Celestichthys of females, which follows the male and over again, or the desire to own caviar. Not only we observed the goings carefully, including the Galaxy barb was clearly expired well what so many of the eggs disappeared into the mouths of Celestichthys.
The transparent produced very weak greenish colored eggs have a diameter of about 0.8 millimeters. Expelled during mating, they quickly fall towards the ground and remain mostly lie there, rare in the algae. After a few minutes, they become sticky and then adhere to the surface. Repeatedly, blow on "Loosen it with a pipette can be a sticking place again only instead if at all, very weak. For lack of space, the eggs were placed in a floating Artemia sieve. The eggs develop very quickly. Hatch at 28 ° C water temperature, the larvae after 24 hours. As long as the yolk sac is still present, they are usually on the side or hanging out with a head on the wall or on plants. After 24 to 36 hours, the larvae begin to swim around. As a starter feed was sieved plankton (mainly rotifers and Cyclops nauplii) are offered and well received. First death suggested that the larvae respond to bio-films are very sensitive. Thorough cleanliness of rearing containers managed improvement here. The free-swimming juveniles shooting at disturbances around very hectic. After several such movements, they usually stop abruptly in the duff or plant parts and are visually very difficult to find. At the age of about six weeks, begins drawing the edge to form. The fry are then about eleven millimeters in size.
In the first description of Celestichthys margaritatus is the apparent close relationship with the Inle occurring "Microrasbora" erythromicron noted in this context, the thesis established that both forms could have evolved from a common ancestor. Due to the strong similarity in our opinion, it could act in the here described Zwergschmerle Myanmar and the Inle Loach (Yunnanilus brevis) in the same way an evolutionary split pair. A theory that could be confirmed but only after extensive investigations.

The Myanmar-Zwergschmerle to our knowledge not yet been targeted, but importing only as by-catch. After the government of Myanmar in early March 2007, a ban on exporting Celestichthys margaritatus imposed, it is unlikely to receive in the near future loaches. Therefore all the more gratifying to see the successful breeding is that hopefully allows the conservation of this species for the hobby and science.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

I seem to have the worst trouble setting up tanks, although this is nothing compared to the last. I can't find water sprite either at all or anywhere near the amount I need. I'm going to look go to my backup plan and try to find some wisteria to float.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

The wisteria arrived today. Really nice sized. I'm hoping I'll be able to keep it alive floating. Are freebies a common thing with online plant sellers? Third time I ordered plants, third time I got free ones. This time it was red root floater. I put that in as well. I need to research it again, because I hadn't been looking at it for this tank. Thought it was a bit harder to keep.

I found a snail today. I heard some people let them in and others say to remove them right away. Just curious what people on here usually do. I'm a softy at heart, yes it's a snail but I almost hate to kill it with no good reason. Do they actually eat plants or is it just dead/dying leaves? My guess since I didn't buy it would be that it's a pond snail.

So many centerpiece fish that would fit this biotope that I'd love to keep some day. Unfortunately I don't know that that day is soon due to most of them needing either lower ph than I have (I have the soft water but measuring the tank last night at lights out it the ph was neutral/ not sure if it would be lower at lights on since I forgot to test this morning) or being finicky eaters. I'm actually debating how a couple large shoals of nano fish (I've decided on Sundadanio axelrodi and a Boraras, most likely B. brigittae) would look with a smaller shoal of something bigger like Eiromotus octozona or Hylobagrus flavus.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

The pH will be highest at the end of the light period (before dark), and lowest when the lights come on (after the night), due to the diurnal fluctuation in all planted tanks. I always test fairly early in the morning to get an accurate idea of how acidic the tanks run.

Snails. Depends upon the type, but the small ones that would normally arrive with plants are most likely pond snails, ramshorn snails or if you're really lucky Malaysian Livebearing Snails. The latter I consider essential in a planted tank; the burrowing through the substrate is good for a healthy substrate. None of these three eat plants, though I will say that one member had ramshorn that she thought ate some plants. All three will eat decaying plant matter and all waste, and they assist bacteria by breaking down waste into smaller bits the bacteria can more easily handle immediately.

Byron.


----------



## Quantum (Jul 23, 2011)

our plans for our tanks are almost exactly the same, I think I'm going with _Boraras maculatus _and _Eirmotus octozona_, and either Scarlet badis or maybe one of the Licorice gourami, still looking for something for the substrate, will probably add some tiger shrimp as well

I believe the red root floater is new world, if you are trying to have strictly SEA species

here's my tank with some more crypts added, it's melted a bit and still has some algae from when it was in a higher light tank, hopefully it will look better when it gets established, still have some taller_ C. wendtii_ to add and some _C. parva_ I may add, thinking of _C. retrospiralis_ inthe rear corners


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

I found three snails and currently they are sitting in a glass of water beside the tank. According to what you said I don't see any reason not to add them back in. After looking up pictures, they are certainly pond snails. There tons of disagreement on the web about whether they are ok or not which is why I asked. They will only get out of control populationwise if I overfeed correct?

I'll look into Malaysian trumpets as well. I had looked into horned nerites before for algae eating, but that was as far as my deep snail research has gone. As you said, I don't know my ph but my water (if I calcualted right) is soft with a general hardness of 2.91 (calculated from 52 ppm). I didn't think that was the type of water needed for snails?


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Quantum said:


> our plans for our tanks are almost exactly the same, I think I'm going with _Boraras maculatus _and _Eirmotus octozona_, and either Scarlet badis or maybe one of the Licorice gourami, still looking for something for the substrate, will probably add some tiger shrimp as well
> 
> I believe the red root floater is new world, if you are trying to have strictly SEA species
> 
> here's my tank with some more crypts added, it's melted a bit and still has some algae from when it was in a higher light tank, hopefully it will look better when it gets established, still have some taller_ C. wendtii_ to add and some _C. parva_ I may add, thinking of _C. retrospiralis_ inthe rear corners


Great minds think alike? I had really looked in the scarlet badis and licorice gourami. Those were pretty much what I meant when I said about centerpiece fish. My problem is that frozen food means a two hour round trip for me. I get it but don't have a constant supply I feed daily. I'm not sure I want the hassle of culturing multiple live foods either to provide a varied diet. I was told on the betta forum that B. channoides would work as well. Have you looked into them?

I'm also planning on either the banded dwarf loach or the Burmese rosy loach. I don't know if they can interbreed or not so don't know that I should mix them.

I'm pretty sure you're right about the red root floater. I had looked into it when I set up my SA blackwater. That tank only has stock lighting though. I figure it can go in the new tank for now because it will only help me cycle. If it lives I can always get a new bulb and transfer it.

The tank is looking good. What kind of wendtii are you putting in the back? My retrospiralis is slowly melting. They came with almost no roots and have been hit second worst, with my green wendtii melting completely.

Here's a few more bad pics if you'd like to see how my tank is turning out. My aquascaping skills are lacking, everything is closer than it should be and my lilies can't be seen yet, but overall I'm happy with it.


----------



## Quantum (Jul 23, 2011)

yeah, I'm not sure about feeding, some sources say live food only for the gourami, still deciding

haven't considered the less common betta species, need to look into them more

I have some wendtii from the same petsmart plastic envelope the those came from, but grew taller, also may add the 'mi oya' variety that is supposed to get a bit taller

looks like you've managed to get your crypts arranged in a less orderly, more natural manner, looking good


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

blackwaterguy said:


> I found three snails and currently they are sitting in a glass of water beside the tank. According to what you said I don't see any reason not to add them back in. After looking up pictures, they are certainly pond snails. There tons of disagreement on the web about whether they are ok or not which is why I asked. They will only get out of control populationwise if I overfeed correct?
> 
> I'll look into Malaysian trumpets as well. I had looked into horned nerites before for algae eating, but that was as far as my deep snail research has gone. As you said, I don't know my ph but my water (if I calcualted right) is soft with a general hardness of 2.91 (calculated from 52 ppm). I didn't think that was the type of water needed for snails?


The Malaysian LS are unique in that they do very well in soft acidic water or basic hard water. My zero GH and pH below 5 tanks are full of them.:lol:

The pond snails I really like, but they tend to be better with some mineral. But, I have managed to keep them and a few grow to a decent size (3/4 of an inch) even in my soft water.

I do not overfeed, far from it. But I have hundreds of MLS--the other day for fun sitting in front of the 115g I counted the MTS that i could see and there were over 300. Plus whatever are down in the sand. This doesn't bother me, it actually delights me. I know they must be eating something, and that "something" is stuff I couldn't remove or process as well without them.

When it comes to snails, as indeed with much of this hobby, one has to separate the "opinion" from the facts. Aquarists are free to like or dislike snails. :argue: But when one considers the science of their usefulness in a healthy planted aquarium, there is no contest. No one can intelligently say they are bad and should be avoided and prevented.:nicefish:


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Quantum said:


> yeah, I'm not sure about feeding, some sources say live food only for the gourami, still deciding
> 
> haven't considered the less common betta species, need to look into them more
> 
> ...


Betta albimarginata was suggested as well to me. I had looked at B. rutilans and B. coccina but they require a lower ph, less than 6. I don't think I'll have that, don't know about you.

Your PetSmart is better than mine. Mine had Java Fern and...yeah that was about it, if I'm not counting mondo grass which shouldn't be counted. No crypts at all.

Thanks for the tip on the planting btw. I didn't realize when Byron said to break it into plants that he meant like that. It looks much better now.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Byron said:


> The Malaysian LS are unique in that they do very well in soft acidic water or basic hard water. My zero GH and pH below 5 tanks are full of them.:lol:
> 
> The pond snails I really like, but they tend to be better with some mineral. But, I have managed to keep them and a few grow to a decent size (3/4 of an inch) even in my soft water.
> 
> ...


Thanks Byron! I put the little guys back in the tank and I'll make sure I buy some MTS when I get around to stocking. They won't breed like the MTS or pond snails, but I'm going to keep the horned nerites in mind as well. Those guys though seem to be reluctant to feed on anything but algae. With any luck though I won't have much algae.

I've been thinking about possibly going with some soft water shrimp in my tank as well. I'm looking at all the possibilties still I guess. Small inverts (<1") don't really count towards any bioload caculations do they?


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

When should I add MTS? By that I mean do I wait to allow the roots to establish more or are they something I should see about adding right away. I've just been checking out aquabid and they seem easy to find so I was curious.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

blackwaterguy said:


> When should I add MTS? By that I mean do I wait to allow the roots to establish more or are they something I should see about adding right away. I've just been checking out aquabid and they seem easy to find so I was curious.


Assuming you mean Malaysian Livebearing Snails, now. They will burrow and scour every square millimeter of an aquarim looking for food.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Byron said:


> Assuming you mean Malaysian Livebearing Snails, now. They will burrow and scour every square millimeter of an aquarim looking for food.


That is what I meant, sorry. They are being listed as Malaysian trumpet snails so same thing. I've seen two different species listed on my quick search. Melanoides tuberculata and the spike tailed Malaysian trumpet snail (listed as Melanoides granifera but according to Wikipedia that's wrong and it's Tarebia granifera).


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

I've done fish in cycling and fishless cycling before this will be my first time silent cycling. What sort of initial stocking level do you aim for with silent cycling? Is it as low as regular fish in cycling or is it somewhere in between the two? Just wondering how many nano fish/shrimp I should add from the start.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

blackwaterguy said:


> I've done fish in cycling and fishless cycling before this will be my first time silent cycling. What sort of initial stocking level do you aim for with silent cycling? Is it as low as regular fish in cycling or is it somewhere in between the two? Just wondering how many nano fish/shrimp I should add from the start.


If this is your first, take it slow to be cautious. If well planted, a group of one of the fish will be fine, and shrimp.

I've done this often, the only way for years, and I can set up a 115g tank in one day with 90+ fish. But this can be nerve-racking if you are not comfortable with the method.:blueshake:

Byron.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Thank you. Nerve racking is something I certainly don't want. I've done fish in as I said and it's not something I really enjoyed lol. It worked, but without the plants it made me a wreck. The top is definitely well planted. The water sprite is growing well, but I need to wait to see how the wisteria does. It's still green at least.

I need to finalize my stocking list ( even if like my other tank I never get to that full). In a 29 gallon I can have about 40 fish less than an inch plus small loach correct?


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

blackwaterguy said:


> Thank you. Nerve racking is something I certainly don't want. I've done fish in as I said and it's not something I really enjoyed lol. It worked, but without the plants it made me a wreck. The top is definitely well planted. The water sprite is growing well, but I need to wait to see how the wisteria does. It's still green at least.
> 
> I need to finalize my stocking list ( even if like my other tank I never get to that full). In a 29 gallon I can have about 40 fish less than an inch plus small loach correct?


The fish size is only one factor, and sometimes the least important one. Depends upon the species.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

*slaps forehead* Yeah including that part helps. Not one hundred percent certain of which species. Small, peaceful cyprinids. Boraras and Sundadanio for sure. Possibly the addition of another species that will swim at a different level. A Yunnanilus species for the loach.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

blackwaterguy said:


> *slaps forehead* Yeah including that part helps. Not one hundred percent certain of which species. Small, peaceful cyprinids. Boraras and Sundadanio for sure. Possibly the addition of another species that will swim at a different level. A Yunnanilus species for the loach.


I won't comit until I know the stocking intention:smash: . But, depending upon species, 40 of fish like Boraras is fine...but only one species of Boraras--this is what I mean.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Finding something for the lower portions of the tank is proving difficult. It's only a 29 gallon so I've had to cross some species I'd like off my list due to room like Danio choprae and Trigonostigma hengeli. I think these are my top two scenarios with the second obviously containing fewer fish.

#1
Boraras brigittae
Sundadanio axelrodi 'blue'
Yunnanilus cruciatus
Neocaridina heteropoda var yellow or orange
Yunnanilus sp. Burmese rosy (if I can figure out if the two Yunnanilus will crossbreed easily or not. Boraras does, Corydoras doesn't so yeah lol)

#2
Boraras brigittae
Sundadanio axelrodi 'blue'
Yunnanilus cruciatus
Eirotomus octozona or Hylobagrus flavus


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

> Finding something for the lower portions of the tank is proving difficult. It's only a 29 gallon so I've had to cross some species I'd like off my list due to room like Danio choprae and Trigonostigma hengeli.


Why? Both of these will be fine in a 29g (30-inch length). In fact, I have a group of 9 T. hengeli in my 29g along with several other fish species. And the D. choprae are no more than 1 inch so a group will work.



> I think these are my top two scenarios with the second obviously containing fewer fish.
> #1
> Boraras brigittae
> Sundadanio axelrodi 'blue'
> ...


Ha, just noticed an error in the Y. cruciatus profile; must have been in a daze when I wrote it. A 10g is insufficient space, and this fish reaches 2 inches. I have a group of 5 in my 33g that have spawned even. It will still be fine in your 29g though, a group of 6. I just need to revise the profile.:roll:

I would be careful combining those two Yunnanilus species, not worried so much about hybridizing but the "Burmese" is a very delicate little fish. I would suggest on its own in a good sized group. I've no personal experience, never seen these locally, so this is just a caution. Having the Y. cruciatus for over a year now, I know they are somewhat typical of common loaches, and quite lively at times. May not bother the smaller species, I don't know, but I would hate to have the smaller beauty hiding all the time because of the playfulness of the larger species.



> #2
> Boraras brigittae
> Sundadanio axelrodi 'blue'
> Yunnanilus cruciatus
> Eirotomus octozona or Hylobagrus flavus


Don't know what Eirotomus octozona is... the Hyalobagrus [note spelling] flavus should be fine even with the above loach. Not sure about either frightening the other again as no personal experience of either species but from what Matt says I would think they should work.

I would increase upper water (=non-substrate) fish in both scenario. By which i mean more species. As long as we are talking these type of fish.

Byron.


----------



## Quantum (Jul 23, 2011)

Eirmotus octozona - Seriously Fish


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Figuring out what fish can live together is something I can do with not much trouble. Figuring how much to actually stock though always gives me trouble. My blackwater tank is not fully stocked and I've had it set up for about six months now. Sorry slight digression there. My thinking when I said I had to take them off was that the fish would be happier in larger groups (say a shoal of 20 versus 10). I could be completely wrong though and I'd be more than happy adding in other species because really who doesn't want more fish? 

I like both Yunnanilus species but I think if it came to a choice of one or the other than I would definitely choose the Burmese. They are such pretty little fish. Even with that German link you gave me info is hard to find on them. I'm basing their needed water parameters on your profile for the celestial pearl danio. My tank fits into those parameters, although if I picked a different Boraras species I could lower the temp a couple of degrees to be on the safe side. It's currently set for 77 degrees F.

I'm a huge lover of catfish and have never kept an of the Asian species. The shadow catfish (sorry about misspelling the scientific name, tried to do it from memory) seems to be the one one that would fit my tank. Doesn't hurt that it's nice looking either. 

Another misspelling for me. I think I was the one in the daze last night since that's two genus names I got wrong in one sentence. Eirotomus octozona should have said Eirmotus octozona. The false eight-barred barb. Eirmotus octozona - Seriously Fish (ninja'ed by Quantum)

For certain I would like the Sundadanio, the Burmese rosy loach, and 1 species of Boraras (based as I said on if I need to lower the temperature for the loach). Anything that will live peacefully with those three and help me for out the tank I'm all for.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Here's good info on the loach:
Shadow Catfish (Hyalobagrus flavus) - Seriously Fish

Not sure why I didn't find this previously...:question:

Thanks Quantum for the link. I don't know that genus, and with the mis-spelling couldn't find anything.:lol:

Some of these tiny fish do much better in larger groups, like the Boraras. But around a dozen (or say 9 with some of them) should be OK.

Byron.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Planetcatfish has a page for Hyalobagrus flavus as well (with a lower ph). http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/species.php?species_id=295

So far the best page for the loach that I've been able to find is Rosy loach, Tuberoschistura arakanensis | Features | Practical Fishkeeping


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

I love the Eirmotus octozona, but I don't know how they would do with shrimp and shrimp are something I'd be interested in keeping since I never had before. With that in mind does this stocking sound any better? I would certianly be colorful.

Boraras brigittae
Sundadanio axelrodi 'blue'
Microdevario kubotai
Oryzias mekongensis
Yunnanilus sp. Burmese rosy
Neocaridina heteropoda var yellow or orange


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

blackwaterguy said:


> I love the Eirmotus octozona, but I don't know how they would do with shrimp and shrimp are something I'd be interested in keeping since I never had before. With that in mind does this stocking sound any better? I would certianly be colorful.
> 
> Boraras brigittae
> Sundadanio axelrodi 'blue'
> ...


Looks good to me.


----------



## Quantum (Jul 23, 2011)

the _Sundadanio axelrodi_ is really nice, may have to add those to my list as well, what kind of numbers are we talking about?


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Quantum said:


> the _Sundadanio axelrodi_ is really nice, may have to add those to my list as well, what kind of numbers are we talking about?


Nothing is over an inch, so based on Byron said way back at the begining of this thread I thought maybe 10 of everything. 

I've seen both blue and green Sundadanio axelrodi for sale. Not sure about you, but I think I'm a bigger fan of the blue.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

I tried to take pictures today for an update and failed miserably. I'll try again tomorrow when I have some ambient light, but until then an update anyway.

All the plants have been in the tank for a week to two and a half weeks. Not long, but that's a new record for me. This might not be as hard as I thought.

Floating plants:
The water sprite (just like the profile says) suffered when I first intorduced it. The leaves turned brown, but fortunately since then it's growing good. I should remove the brown areas but they seem to be where new growth is occuring.
Wisteria? I am loving that stuff. I had worried about the lighting being too low, but with it floating that doesn't seem like it's a problem (granted it's only been in a week). Zero browning, new leaves, and new roots all along the stems. It's dominating the upper tank, but then the four plants I got were larger than the water sprite to begin with. Really happy with this.
Red root floater gets lost in all the wisteria. The roots haven't really grown, but the plants are growing new leaves. If it continues to grow well with this amount of light I just might need to put it in my South American tank. Might even try frogbit for the third time.

Crypts:
The green wendtii was hit the worst. I honestly didn't think any would survive since much of it was unattached roots (since discarded). A small number survived though with a couple begining to grow leaves.
The brown wendtii fared a lot better. It was hit with melt, but didn't lose all of it's leaves. Almost every plant has started regrowing leaves now of a nice brown color.
The lucens fared the best of any of my crypts. Not many leaves melted, on the other hand I haven't noticed much new growth yet. That should come in time.
The undulata is finally finished melting. It had a fair deal with the smallest plants melting completely, while the larger plants only lost some of their bigger leaves. I've noticed some new leaves growing though.
The retrospiralis is a total and complete mess. A lot of leaves melted completely. Others melted at the tip, or in a couple of instances at the base with the tip still being green. Every leaf left has some melt on it that doesn't seem to be progressing. I expected a leaf that started to melt to melt completely, but that hasn't happened. Very strange. Not really liking this plant. Considering actually removing it since I already have too many plants.

Bulbs:
The dwarf lilies are growing slowly as expected, but both already have three leaves. 
I received four Apogoneton bulbs and one plant. Two bulbs mildewed and were discarded. The plant without the bulb, is obviously the slowest grower. Not sure of any of the species, although I'm convinced they are all different. Odds are they probably aren't right for the biotope either, for the time being though they are staying since I have no where else to go with them. The one Apongeton I feel most confident in IDing is the fastest growing. I believe it to be A. longiplumulosus. Very pretty and very fast growing. The Aponogetons are too close with them being a mixture of species. I think if I remove the retrospiralis that I might move one of the Aponogetons to that side.

So far I'm happy. Just thinking of doing some fine tweeking with the backrow.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)




----------



## CatSoup (Mar 1, 2012)

Like a tiny Amazon.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Since this is basically a build thread I figure I should mention all my mistakes with my aquascaping. Looks good from a distance, but I'm picky and an amateur...not a good combo lol.

-Potted plants go farther than I thought. There's no real open space on the bottom. At the very least I should have gotten one less pot of undulata. Maybe less of others as well. The undulata though is taller and I have it placed in front of the driftwood because there was so much. That would have been a good spot for empty space with something like subwassertang around the base of the driftwood. Or else one of the lower growing crypts.

-Even forgetting the melt I had this vision in my head that retropsiralis grew more vertically. Even new it didn't stand completely vertical. The effect can look nice. My placement of it however sucked. I had invisioned it hiding the equipment. Placing it in the opposite corner and putting something bushy where it is now would probably have looked better.

-The wisteria was a late addition to the plan, but it coupled with the water sprite makes an effect I really like. Unfortunately that causes a problem with the two dwarf lilies. Allow them to eventually grow lily pads and I lose some of the dense overhanging growth look I currently have. Train them to keep the lily pads from forming and the plants will never been seen since they are behind the driftwood, which once again is behind the undulata. 

-The Aponogetons were free so putting them in wasn't that insane of a decision. From an aquascaping standpoint though it sucked. All three together are out of place. They just don't look right. I had thought about moving the one that's seen in the pictures in front of the filter, but if I am correct in my ID then it's going to outgrow the tank by a good ten inches. I swear I can almost see it growing, so that point in time might not be too far away. Beautiful plant, my favorite by far, but I just don't know of a way to make it work. The other two Apongetons I'm just kind of meh on. Not sure if it's having all those leaf shapes close togehter or the simple fact that the larger one is in between them and kind of overpowers them already. I'm completely ignoring the origin of these guys, because it's not a huge concern. Fitting the biotype is nice, but having a good looking tank tops it every time.

-Obviously I'm not very good at placing "specimen" plants.

Any thoughts for me?


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

To your last question...we learn as we go.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

The plants are proving to be a lot more fun than I thought they would be. Makes me wish I had space for a few more tanks to play around with and learn from.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Are crypt species relatively equal in their proneness to melt? I'm asking because the temperature in the tank rose slightly from the weather getting warmer. My wendtii and lucens lost a few leaves. The undulata on the other hand is in the process of completely melting, the entire stand of it. I realize that any change is going to cause crypts to melt, but I wasnt sure if some species handled changes slightly better. I'm debating if I should just get rid of the undulata and replace it with something else...maybe lutea?


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

blackwaterguy said:


> Are crypt species relatively equal in their proneness to melt? I'm asking because the temperature in the tank rose slightly from the weather getting warmer. My wendtii and lucens lost a few leaves. The undulata on the other hand is in the process of completely melting, the entire stand of it. I realize that any change is going to cause crypts to melt, but I wasnt sure if some species handled changes slightly better. I'm debating if I should just get rid of the undulata and replace it with something else...maybe lutea?


Most crypts melt but it can vary a lot. I have had the same plants melt in one situation but not in another near identical. As noted in our profile, the C. pontederiifolia is said to be less suceptible, and I have found this sometimes true. Also C. wendtii has held up better for me when I've moved it to another tank.

The temp would have to rise a fair bit to affect crypts, or so I would think, but of course there may be some other factor at play too.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Byron said:


> Most crypts melt but it can vary a lot. I have had the same plants melt in one situation but not in another near identical. As noted in our profile, the C. pontederiifolia is said to be less suceptible, and I have found this sometimes true. Also C. wendtii has held up better for me when I've moved it to another tank.
> 
> The temp would have to rise a fair bit to affect crypts, or so I would think, but of course there may be some other factor at play too.


The only factor I can think of is the heat. A rise of about 5-6 degrees. I haven't added any other plants lately or changed my fertilizing routine. Same lights and duration. My last water change was a week ago, days before this began occuring. I know though that I'm trying to find the needle in the haystack. Unless my surface plants have suddenly started shading too much light? lol Maybe crypts weren't an ideal beginner plant, but they were doing well for the first five weeks.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Forgetting about the biotope...are there any other midground plants that you can suggest? I just want a chance to look at my options.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

blackwaterguy said:


> Forgetting about the biotope...are there any other midground plants that you can suggest? I just want a chance to look at my options.


I always suggest pygmy chain sword.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Byron said:


> I always suggest pygmy chain sword.


Thank you for the suggestion. I put the air conditioning in as the aquarium rose 4 degrees tonight alone. Hopefully some of the undulata will be ok.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

No updates for a while, but I figure I should if anyone gives a heck. I've made/am making a bunch of changes, although still no fish yet. My hope is to order them when I'm off work at the end of July so I'll be home for them. I also found someone local that has most of the fish I'll want  That should save me tons in shipping.

I've removed all the bulb plants as well as the crypts I lacked patience for. Somehow I also managed to not be able to grow water sprite. That is all gone, with the exception of a few baby plants floating around (for however long they survive). That means that all the plants I had originally spent hours researching and fretting about are no longer in there...so much for planning.

The wisteria, red root floater, and Hygrophila corymbosa 'angustifolia' remain. To them have been added H. corymbosa 'Siamensis' and 'compacta' as well as H. polysperma 'sunset', H. pinnatifida, H. sp 'Aragaia', Lindernia sp. 'India', and some mystery plants I don't know what they are. I have a few more plants that will be arriving next week.

The 'compacta' came grown emersed and over a foot tall. I planted just the tops, but even still I'm not sure I like it as a foreground plant. I didn't trim off the largest leaves as I was worried about trimming it too much. Everything else is doing well with the 'sunset' showing a lot of growth in a week. The Lindernia has also shown nice growth, although lacking in the violet coloring it had when I received it as a gift.

This picture was taken a week ago after planting. I'll take new ones when I add in the other plants. I might need to move the polysperma since it stayed light pink and I'm not sure if it draws attention away from the driftwood. Still working on my aquascaping skills.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Lights are out now, but I'll try and get pics tomorrow. I got a few stems of Hygrophila lancea today and tons of Hygrophila sp 'bold'. I'm not exaggerating the tons comment. I ordered five stems and got another ten for free. They are crowded as a result and I'm hoping they will be ok. :/


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Any thoughts on the aquascape are greatly appreciated. Looks like it could uses changes/subtractions, but I'm clueless as to where and how.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

That's a lot of plants.

A suggestion for photos, don't use Flash. With just the tank light the photos will be nicer.

Byron.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Byron said:


> That's a lot of plants.
> 
> A suggestion for photos, don't use Flash. With just the tank light the photos will be nicer.
> 
> Byron.


 
Lose some of the plants? The jungle look I want kind of went even farther thanks to tons of free plants. Can problems occur from too many plants or is it just an aesthetic deal?

Simple things seem to elude me. Can't keep water sprite alive, fishless cycling without plants (never going through that again), and figuring out my old cam. I'll work on my picture taking skills though.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

> Lose some of the plants? The jungle look I want kind of went even farther thanks to tons of free plants. Can problems occur from too many plants or is it just an aesthetic deal?


I'd like to see how this grows. Once plants settle in, they can explode with new growth, runners, etc. I let the pygmy chain sword do this in my 70g, until one day I took a hard look at the tank and realized it was a mess. I began thinning out the plants. They will suffocate one another in time, but otherwise it is really up to what you want. Later you will likely want to thin them out. You won't be able to see the fish.:lol:


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Byron said:


> I'd like to see how this grows. Once plants settle in, they can explode with new growth, runners, etc. I let the pygmy chain sword do this in my 70g, until one day I took a hard look at the tank and realized it was a mess. I began thinning out the plants. They will suffocate one another in time, but otherwise it is really up to what you want. Later you will likely want to thin them out. You won't be able to see the fish.:lol:


 
I was forced to plant the 'bold' three stems to a hole to fit it all in. Even doing that I had to move all the 'Siamensis' closer together. It's no longer an inch apart like your profile suggests. I will keep my eye on it and let it grow out so that you can see. I mean at the very least with as many fast growing stems as I have I shouldn't have to worry when I add fish. Even without fish or feedings I can see nice growth, I think that's going to explode when I add fish.

I'm not sure I've mentioned it, and haven't been able to find what causes it on the net, but my red root floater has been flowering the last two weeks. I'm taking that as a sign that it really loves my tank.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Apologies for the pictures. I was playing around with settings to see which worked the best, hopefully these are a slight improvment. 



















I removed some of the 'compacta', moved the lancea in front of the driftwood, and planted the 'Araguaia' closer together to make a midground thicket. That's Staurogyne repens there on the left. A gift for me to try. Might look better without it, but I'll grow it for a while and see how it does. I'd still like to fix the background on the right, perhaps even tidy up the pinnatfida. Any advice on plants with runners? When can runners be cut off and planted, if runners are removed with the main plant grow taller?

What do you think Byron? Does that look a little better? Step in the right direction?


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

A couple quick questions I'm hoping someone could help me out with...

I have a mini canister filter that is only rated for 95 gph. That gives me a turnover of about 3.25X. That's a lot less than any other aquarium I've had. Should I add a second filter? It'll have to be a different brand, because the kind I have and am liking doesn't seem to be available any more.

What are the best and easiest to culture foods for scarlet badis? I would love to keep them, however I don't have easy/cheap access to frozen foods. I wouldn't mind culturing, I just need to find the right size food.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

blackwaterguy said:


> A couple quick questions I'm hoping someone could help me out with...
> 
> I have a mini canister filter that is only rated for 95 gph. That gives me a turnover of about 3.25X. That's a lot less than any other aquarium I've had. Should I add a second filter? It'll have to be a different brand, because the kind I have and am liking doesn't seem to be available any more.
> 
> What are the best and easiest to culture foods for scarlet badis? I would love to keep them, however I don't have easy/cheap access to frozen foods. I wouldn't mind culturing, I just need to find the right size food.


On the filter, no; what you have is fine. Planted tanks don't need filters at all, although some of us do like a mechanical filter for minimal water movement, and you now have that. Unless the fish are those that need stronger currents, obviously.

I cultured wingless fruit flies, mainly for my hatchets, but I expect they are small enough for Scarlet Badis. Daphnia is another; I have read articles on culturing daphnia outdoors in summer. Another is mosquito larvae, apparently simple to culture again outdoors in a pail of water. Then there is newly hatched brine shrimp.

Once you have an established and well-planted tank, especially with Java Moss on chunks of wood and floating plants like Water Sprite, you would be surprised how much microscopic plankton will be living in the tank and these small fish will eat this. I would supplement it with something else to be safe. Also, dried leaves (oak, popular, almond) will grow infusoria, more microscopic stuff for small fish to graze. And allow some algae mats to develop, like brush algae on wood or rock (but not on plant leaves), as this will develop biofilms.

If you have a garden, you may find those very small ants in hundreds, the ones that are about 2 or 3/16 of an inch. Drop some of these on the surface and i expect the fish will eat them.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Byron said:


> On the filter, no; what you have is fine. Planted tanks don't need filters at all, although some of us do like a mechanical filter for minimal water movement, and you now have that. Unless the fish are those that need stronger currents, obviously.
> 
> I cultured wingless fruit flies, mainly for my hatchets, but I expect they are small enough for Scarlet Badis. Daphnia is another; I have read articles on culturing daphnia outdoors in summer. Another is mosquito larvae, apparently simple to culture again outdoors in a pail of water. Then there is newly hatched brine shrimp.
> 
> ...


Thank you! The Scarlet Badis are such nice looking fish and it seems like they would work well with both my water parameters and the other fish I have planned. The dietay requirements have scared me away from them and a few other species. The wingless fruit flies, mosquito larva, and ants were things I probably wouldn't have even considered. I had been looking into things like micro worms, grindal worms, and banana worms. Are some more nutrious then others or is it just similar to how crickets are gutloaded for reptiles?

I don't have any moss (one of the few plants I haven't thrown in that tank lol) or wate sprite. No signs of algae yet, despite the months I've had the plants. I have Indian almond leaves and oak leaves in abundance, although none currently in the tank.

I don'tknow if Scarlet Badis eat snail eggs, but I do have a thriving population of pond snails. It might sound cruel, but I'm also considering a large number of Neocaridina shrimp, both because I think they would be interested and because I think some of the shrimplets could also serve as food.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

blackwaterguy said:


> Thank you! The Scarlet Badis are such nice looking fish and it seems like they would work well with both my water parameters and the other fish I have planned. The dietay requirements have scared me away from them and a few other species. The wingless fruit flies, mosquito larva, and ants were things I probably wouldn't have even considered. I had been looking into things like micro worms, grindal worms, and banana worms. Are some more nutrious then others or is it just similar to how crickets are gutloaded for reptiles?
> 
> I don't have any moss (one of the few plants I haven't thrown in that tank lol) or wate sprite. No signs of algae yet, despite the months I've had the plants. I have Indian almond leaves and oak leaves in abundance, although none currently in the tank.
> 
> I don'tknow if Scarlet Badis eat snail eggs, but I do have a thriving population of pond snails. It might sound cruel, but I'm also considering a large number of Neocaridina shrimp, both because I think they would be interested and because I think some of the shrimplets could also serve as food.


If the shrimp are small enough, they would be eaten by any fish, as crustaceans are usually in the diet of wild fish. I know of no fish that eat snail eggs. I havethe small pond snails in all my tanks and I see the small egg clusters on plant leaves and sometimes the tank glass, and nothing has ever even looked at them.

Worms are fine, but not as a sole diet due to protein and fat. Which is why I mentioned everything else i could think of. Once the fish start eating, it is often possible to slowly wean them onto prepared foods.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Byron said:


> If the shrimp are small enough, they would be eaten by any fish, as crustaceans are usually in the diet of wild fish. I know of no fish that eat snail eggs. I havethe small pond snails in all my tanks and I see the small egg clusters on plant leaves and sometimes the tank glass, and nothing has ever even looked at them.
> 
> Worms are fine, but not as a sole diet due to protein and fat. Which is why I mentioned everything else i could think of. Once the fish start eating, it is often possible to slowly wean them onto prepared foods.


I started reading up and found an article on culturing daphnia indoors in a gallon container. That seems to be the best bet, along with grindal worms. I might even have room on my fishstand then for the wingless fruit flies, if the fish will eat from the surface. Do nematodes have the same proetin and fat content as worms or should I consider that as well? Variety is good I know and I want plans in place for the colder months when I can't collect outside.

Not even sure on the shrimp. They are nice looking, but if I had the space for either them or loaches/catfish then I would chose the fish every time.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

I wanted to take a few pictures to show how the plant growth has been for the last couple of weeks. Of course my batteries died before I got any really good shots. I really need to buy some rechargeable batteries. Anyway, here are some lackluster pics for your viewing pleasure. The tank looks much better in person.





























The Hygrophila sp 'bold' has in thelast few days begun to shot up. It is growing fast all of a sudden which is nice. It appears taller than the H. polysperma only because the polysperma doesnt grow straight up, but instead grows towards whatever light the floating plants allow it to have. 

The red root floater has stopped flowering and lost all traces of red, which sucks a little.On the other hand it's growing even faster. It's probably time for me to cut back the wisteria and red root floater again. In about two weeks they've once more taken over most of the surface. I wish I could leave thm for a while, until I've gotten my fish, but I don't know that the entire left side of the tank gets much light. The Staurogyne repens have at least rooted, so they might not mind. No sure of the other plants on that side though.

In sad news I think my Malaysian trumpet snails are all gone. Even checking at night with a flashlight I haven't seen anyin a few weeks. No clue as to why. Shipping stress? I didn't have them long. The pond snails are all ok. 

My new goals are figuring out how much to trim back the floating plants, figuring out how to return the red root floater to red, updating my stocking plan (questions/thoughts on that tonight), and figuring out what happened to the trumpet snails so that I can get more.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Almost nothing will kill MLS. There may be some in there, just be patient. It took mine a few months before they multiplied to the extent that I began to see them, and now I have thousands.;-)

Red-leaf plants need more light and slightly higher nutrients. One reason they tend to be much better in high-tech tanks.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

I hope you're right about the MLS. They werent the most interesting thing to watch, but they were part of the ecosystem Were/are, you know what I mean.

When I upgraded to medium light, the red root floater grew very red. I definitely think it's nutrients, since it stopped being red after I added a bunch of fast growers. I already dose Comprehensive twice weekly, so I guess I'm going to have to live with them not being red.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

I had a stocking list many pages ago on here. I've had months to research other fish and in some cases foods so I'd like some thoughts on it again, if no one minds. I've seen all these for sale and they should work well with my water.

Shoaling fish:
Boraras-last week I saw every species but B. micros for sale. B, urophthalmoides seems to not be on sale this week. Regardless my first choice would be B. brigittae with B. naevus being my second choice.
Sundadanio-whatever species the blue ones in the trade actually are.
Microdevario kubotai-This would be my third overall choice in a shoaling fish if I picked that many.

My earlier stocking list had five shoaling species, but that was without the possibilities of some of the following. I have a long enough list for other fish in this catergory that I wish I had room for a bigger tank. I think that's always the case though.  Others include Trigonostigma hengeli, Oryzias mekongensis, Danio choprae, etc.

Centerpiece fish. These are dependant upon me doing live foods.:
Dario Dario
Dario Hysginon
Parasphaericthys ocellatus
I think any of those would work. Doubtful I could have more than one species. D. dario would be my first choice. If I can't find females though and could of D. Hysginon then the choice would be different. 
I've seen four species of Parosphronemus for sale, but have neither caves (or room to add them) or tannin stained water. That means those are out sadly.

Loaches:
Yunnanilus sp 'Rosy'- Still my top choice for here although I don't know if I have enough hardness for them.
Yunnanilus cruciatus
Pangio oblonga, Pangio anguillaris, Pangio semicincta
No order for the Pangio species since I like them, but don't know if I have floorspace for multiple loach species and am unsure how they would affect my bioload. They are thin, but still much bigger than anything else planned.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Byron- You were right of course. I saw an MLS last night, one of the bigger ones.

I yanked out handfuls of red root floater today. Since I only turn on/off the lights I didn't really notice how thick it had grown in just a few weeks. To put it another way I might have removed half of it, which in turn covered nearly a third of th surface of my forty gallon breeder. My blackwater tank suddenly has lots of plants at the surface. I wonder if I should transfer some snails to. Anyway I think I'd better make it a point to trim at least that plant on a weekly basis.

The angustifolia lost some leaves because of thelack of light it received. I hadn't even noticed the browning of them, with that area being so dark. It might be time to try my hand at actually trimming it and replanting the stems. I havent done any trimming really besides hacking at wisteria and the red root floater, neither of which I was concerned about screwing up. I might also try to find some more angustifolia for a more rapid bush/more hiding places. Hiding places were always the goal with all the plants I added, no idea if I over did it, but I like it. lol Let's see how I feel when I can't see the fish, although there is still plenty of swimming area.

Would 10 each Boraras, Sundadanio, and Yunnanilus with 6 Pangio loaches be ok? Fully stocked? Overstocked? I suck so bad at guessing stocking limits.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Update time. I've taken to keeping all the floaters in the front half of the tank and along the sides, not allowing them directly under the light. Seems to be working out great. I still have some shading while the rest of the plants get light. Some of my stems have reached the surface!

I put my first fish in the tank today as well. I believe 9 Yunnanilus cruciatus and 12 Boraras brigittae. The I believe part is due to several counts without fishy cooperation. I know there were extras thrown in. One of the dominant chili rasboras was bright red in the bag even after a day of shipping. Some of the others are already coloring up more. All of them are so amazingly tiny that I probably could have ordered even more. The rasboras are happily exploring the tank, while the loaches are in a group swimming in the filter current. Not a shy fish to be found, even when I approach the tank. I'm super happy with how this tank is coming out. I'm never doing an unplanted tank again!


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

The fish are all doing well, swimming at all levels. It's only been 4 days, but the tank conditions are still great. Given the two months I spent fishless cycling another tank this makes me unbelievably happy. Both species seem to really enjoy playing in the filter current.

Not sure if it's just that the plants have become established or because of the fish and feedings (I'd guess the latter), but my plant growth in most cases has gone up noticeably. The Hygro 'bold' stems have rocketed up and there are many of them. My expensive Hygrophila lancelota has grown four new leaves on each stem in the last four days. The Siamensis is finally showing growth with new leaves. The Lindernia 'India' is growing well and also branching. The Hygrophila pinnatifida I believe is growing, albeit slowly. No new runners with that one, but I think it might be getting taller. Could be my imagination though. The Hygrophila corymbosa 'compacta' is the only plant not growing at all of what I have left (the hygro 'tiger' died under all the shading). I'm being patient though because I have no clue how long it takes to get submersed growth from a plant originally grown emersed.

Still not quite sure what other fish I will add. I've narrowed my centerpiece into two choices: scarlet badis or pygmy sunfish (either Elassoma gilberti or E. evergladei depending on which I can find). Info on the scarlet badis is here, but for anyone that doesn't know about pygmy sunfish here's one of my favorite Youtube videos.




The pygmies aren't Asian, but would still work with my water parameters. No idea if I'd have to chose one or the other. If I got the pygmy sunfish though I would want them breeding since they only live for a year or so. Really cute fish though, both of them.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I know nothing about Elassoma gilberti aside from this brief account from Robert Paul Hudson
Aqua Botanic's Aqua Bloggin Elassoma gilberti
but as they seem to be substrate-huggers I would wonder about compatibility with the loach. The sunfish might be very frightened by these considerably larger fish. A real beauty though. Many years ago I had a group of the more common and slightly larger sunfish from Florida, forgotten the name now, this was back in the early 1980's.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Thank you I had seen that link before. I have a couple of books on keeping fish native to the US in captivity. There's also a website (I don't know if I can post the name since it has a discussion forum. I don't want to post it and break the rules here) that is solely for captive care of North American fish. I've been reading up and talking to owners and am still on the fence. Oddly North American fish are from my understanding more popular as aquarium fish in parts of Europe than in the US or Canada. 
Just out of curiosity, how big are your Yunnanilus cruciatus Byron? Fishbase lists them as 34 mm, about the same as you have here. Elassoms gilberti is listed there as 25 mm, while E. evergladei and E. okefenokee are both listed as 34 mm.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

blackwaterguy said:


> Thank you I had seen that link before. I have a couple of books on keeping fish native to the US in captivity. There's also a website (I don't know if I can post the name since it has a discussion forum. I don't want to post it and break the rules here) that is solely for captive care of North American fish. I've been reading up and talking to owners and am still on the fence. Oddly North American fish are from my understanding more popular as aquarium fish in parts of Europe than in the US or Canada.
> Just out of curiosity, how big are your Yunnanilus cruciatus Byron? Fishbase lists them as 34 mm, about the same as you have here. Elassoms gilberti is listed there as 25 mm, while E. evergladei and E. okefenokee are both listed as 34 mm.


My five are a bit larger I think. I would say 1.5 or 1.6 inches. I've had them 2-3 years now. They have spawned, or at least gone through the motions, but no sign of eggs or fry which would likely get eaten pretty quick with these plus five dwarf loach and the pencilfish.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

So big enough that I'd find it nearly impossible to raise Elassoma fry in the same tank. They apparently breed like crazy (the lady who shot that video went from 5 to over 85 in a year/year and a half before she started selling them). I'd want them to breed, just not to that amount. I think I was looking for an excuse to add them lol.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Oh yeah I was completely wrong about my Hygrophila pinnatifida. I found a nice size runner amongst the corymbosa where it is shaded. Leaves in areas that shouldn't be shaded are growing pale and falling off. I know that plant was going to be tricky.


----------



## nawilson89 (Apr 9, 2012)

Okay. I am in love with the Pygmy Sunfish. Since I live in FL I think I might start going out and looking for them, but alas I am a city boy and I don't know how well I would fare out in the wilds


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

nawilson89 said:


> Okay. I am in love with the Pygmy Sunfish. Since I live in FL I think I might start going out and looking for them, but alas I am a city boy and I don't know how well I would fare out in the wilds


Please tell me you found the courage to at least think about going to find some. I want to live vicariously though you. The alligators can't be that bad


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Bi-weekly update time. If anyone wants pics I will post them, I'm changing some things around later this week and was planning on picture taking then.

Critters- All is well and excellent with these guys. Last week I saw a ramshorn snail, or at least was certain I did. No sighting of any since, so I'm hoping it wasn't my imagination. I wouldn't mind a third snail species in the tank. BTW, I'm not sure if the loaches eat snails or not but I did see one gator rolling a trumpet snail. I'm not sure if the snail was alive at the time or even if the loach managed to get through the closed shell. I just thought it was interesting. I've only seen it once. 
Still no clue as to what other fish I will add, but I'm in love with the two kinds I do have. They're perfect for the tank and it's fun to see them swimming together.

Plants-More mixed results here. Half the Hygrophila pinnatfida was lost. The rest is doing alright, if by alright you mean not dying but not growing either. All of the new Hygrophila corymbosa 'angustifolia' has met the same mushy fate, although the stems I had previously are fine. The 'Siamensis' is finally growing quickly. Actually most of the plants are growing quickly. The green Hygrophila 'bold' (I see to have to form of this plant that differ in not only color, but also growth pattern from the same seller though) is once more in need of a pruning and has numerous side shoots finally growing. I should be able to get a nice bushy look from it. The sunset hygro is also going to a get a pruning. I had been waiting for it to reach the surface but it's more interested in blocking the light over the H. odora. I added Rotala 'Bangladesh' Thursday afternoon. Some of it already looks like it's double in length. The new growth doesn't show the red stems, but I can accept that since it's a lowtech tank and many of the other plants in there have the same "problem". I'm guessing the Rotala can be planted closer to each other than any of the Hygrophilas, at least that's what I've done. Finger crossed that there aren't any problems.

After the good luck with the 'Bangladesh' I have some other cheap Rotalas ordered to try, they will be replacing some of the plants that don't seem to enjoy my tank (anugifolia, compacta, possibly odora although that one is really pretty). I'll be getting a mix of Rotala 'green' and R. macranda 'narrow green' as well as R. 'yao yai' and R. macranda 'Japan red'. The last is not bright red, but reddish green so if I'm lucky that will stay that color. If not I'm not overly concerned as long as it grows.


----------



## nawilson89 (Apr 9, 2012)

blackwaterguy said:


> Please tell me you found the courage to at least think about going to find some. I want to live vicariously though you. The alligators can't be that bad



I did. I went out and searched and searched and caught a bunch of Mosquitofish... I can't find them xD

I want to see updated pics of your tanks!


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

nawilson89 said:


> I did. I went out and searched and searched and caught a bunch of Mosquitofish... I can't find them xD
> 
> I want to see updated pics of your tanks!


I might have something you can use to narrow your search. I found out about it, because i was someday going to collect here in PA. You can find collection data at FishNet2 Search and then you might be able to use Google Maps to narrow it down farther for accessibility. That was what I had planned to try anyway.

I was just digging around in the tank to do trimming. It's a lil cloudy even after a pwc, so at the latest I'll post pics tomorrow. The bad news is that my angustifolia was in even worse shape than I thought. I'm left without about five small stems. Looks nicer if I decide to keep it, but the left side of the tank looks so bare. I can't wait for my new plants. :lol:


----------



## nawilson89 (Apr 9, 2012)

Trying to use that site but its not giving me anything. Ill probably just save up and wait to buy 8 from the sachs site i found.

I had actually done some research earlier and learned that alot are up north of my area and farther south. If there are some spots here it would probably a bit west of me in areas that are inaccessible to me.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

There's some on Aquabid as well, or at least had been when I was thinking about them. Sachs seemed like my other choice, although both seemed to be only wild caught.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Here it is! Nothing special, but it's mine. Getting over my newbie nervous to trim is something I definitely need to do. It should look better if I trim more often. This is pre-trimmed so a comparison can be made later. Some of my pictures came out pretty good (for me lol).


----------



## nawilson89 (Apr 9, 2012)

That looks really good. So envious of your drift wood. I wish i could find some good looking pieces. And such an awesome selection of plants. I need more for all my tanks!


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Thanks! The driftwood is actually stuff I found outside. I have a small bin's worth now and thought those two pieces would work. I think I ended up with more of a garden than a natural looking tank, but the fish seem to enjoy it.


----------



## nawilson89 (Apr 9, 2012)

blackwaterguy said:


> Thanks! The driftwood is actually stuff I found outside. I have a small bin's worth now and thought those two pieces would work. I think I ended up with more of a garden than a natural looking tank, but the fish seem to enjoy it.


I wanted to grab some hardwoods from outside. but i read alot of stuff Byron posted and was kinda scared to. There's a nature sanctuary nearby that has actual hardwood trees that have since dropped branches and stuff. I wanna grab some but again. Kinda half and half about it. I could probably ask their office or something about pesticides and such.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

At first I thought there'd be no way they'd spray pesticides in a nature sanctuary, but then I thought about Wet Nile virus and all at that so now I'm not so sure. Definitely couldn't hurt to ask them. I spent a ton of money on driftwood for my other tank and just didn't want to spend all that again, so I just went out in the woods. Those two pieces were cured and soaked for almost a year (I kind of forgot about them lol). Past couple of days I've been debating whether to leave them in or not. Don't really work as a centerpiece feature, although that's because I suck at aquascaping.


----------



## nawilson89 (Apr 9, 2012)

What steps did you take to "cure" the wood. I am tempted to try it out, i usually just take byron's advise and play it safe but i kinda want to try this.

I was thinking of soaking in for a weak in a diluted vinegar solution (but i dont know what affect the vinegar would have on the hard wood) and then rinsing, baking and soaking in water for another week.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Now I'm going to have to search the forum, since I thought Byron used some himself?

I knew everything I had was pesticide free and none of it was green. I still let it sit in my backyard for a month just to be on the safe side. I would have done it a lot longer if it was green wood. Then I placed it all in a tupperware container and poured hot water on it every day for two weeks. Then I just weighted it down and that's when I forgot about it. It spent about nine months. I haven't had any fungus on any of that wood, unlike a certain piece of Malaysian in my other tank.

I'm not sure if I've heard of using vinegar or not (my brain doesn't seem to want to function properly right now lol). I have heard of using aquarium salt and many soaks after that to make sure it's all removed.


----------



## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

There is always a risk to using wood, any wood really. Yet my tanks are full of chunks of wood.

You want to be sure it is hardwood, that it is thoroughly dead and dry throughout (the larger the thickness the longer this takes). Then you want to do what you can to ensure it has never been exposed to toxins like oil, gas, pesticides, fertilizers, etc. Collecting from a watercourse adds possible issues with pathogens that might kill aquarium fish. Some of these things may be removed with extensive boiling, but some cannot.

Never put any wood you intend to use in a fish tank in contact with any liquid but water. Wood absorbs liquids, and they may leech out months later.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

My plants came today! So excited. Lots of them too. Not even sure what the one is Hygrophila 'tiger' maybe. I just have to wait for the lights to be turned on. It's like it being a kid at Christmas, opening the all toys, and not being able to play with them until later.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

The Rotala macranda was HUGE. I didn't trim it yet, but it needs it since some of the stems are along the surface. Anyway on to a pic...be as brutal as you feel.


----------



## nawilson89 (Apr 9, 2012)

blackwaterguy said:


> The Rotala macranda was HUGE. I didn't trim it yet, but it needs it since some of the stems are along the surface. Anyway on to a pic...be as brutal as you feel.


Brutal? That looks amazing!
I plan on stopping by that sanctuary tomorrow if I am not busy and talk to the office. Hopefully I can grab a bunch!


----------



## eug (May 18, 2012)

Hey you learned how to take tank photos properly.  Amazing jungle look, although I really think a bit of hardscape will give the tank some real dimension.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

nawilson89 said:


> Brutal? That looks amazing!
> I plan on stopping by that sanctuary tomorrow if I am not busy and talk to the office. Hopefully I can grab a bunch!


lol I meant the critiques could be brutal. I'm still trying to decide if I like the new look or not. I usually hate any changes i make for a few days and then it grows on me until I love it. I'm weird I guess.
Hopefully you can get some of that wood. I love everything about setting up a tank from researching all the plants and fish to even go to find the exact driftwood I want. To me that's a huge and fun part of having an aquarium.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

eug said:


> Hey you learned how to take tank photos properly.  Amazing jungle look, although I really think a bit of hardscape will give the tank some real dimension.


lol Only took me how many months of bad pictures to finally be able to take some decent ones. Just don't expect any of the tiny fish. I'm not pushing my luck.
Does kind of look strange/different with no hardscape, especially since my other tank is only hardscape. Have any suggestions for me? I liked the wood I did have in, but it was a real pita. The fish couldn't move it, but I sure could easily enough. Every time I cleaned the filter sponge, trimmed or planted something in the back, moved the floaters. Not sure what small matching pieces of driftwood I have lying around. Rocks might work, I've never done anything with those before.


----------



## eug (May 18, 2012)

It's a bit of a wall of background stem plants at the moment, with some foreground plants at the front that somehow feel like an afterthought. Maybe you can define the layers better by creating a middle ground - what if you had a mid-to-large sized chunk of wood in the midground, in such a way to give foreground plants a natural border?


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

It's actually more like a wall of background plants and a second wall of midground plants. The foreground is largely bare. I did plant haphazard and it shows at the moment. i put my favorite plants in the middle and worked out along to the sides in order of how much I liked them. Made sense at the time lol.
I do get what you're saying though. Now it's up to me to see if I can figure out how to implement it.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

No new pics, since I haven't changed anything yet. Just allowed it to grow in. The angustifolia is still giving me trouble. Seems shaded no matter where I put it. The big news is that I have fish arriving tomorrow. That will make my stock

22 Boraras brigittae
9 Yunnanilus cruciatus
6 Dario hysignon (2m/4f)

Super excited about the fish. The Darios actually eat flakes, pellets, and Repashy (got some of that to try since I've heard good things).

Is that fully stocked now? Or is there still some room? Yeah ok I might be greedy. The tank often looks empty with the 21 fish currently in it. Still so fun to watch though.


----------



## nawilson89 (Apr 9, 2012)

blackwaterguy said:


> No new pics, since I haven't changed anything yet. Just allowed it to grow in. The angustifolia is still giving me trouble. Seems shaded no matter where I put it. The big news is that I have fish arriving tomorrow. That will make my stock
> 
> 22 Boraras brigittae
> 9 Yunnanilus cruciatus
> ...


I would assume that you would be full stocked with those fish. So awesome to get your hands on Dario Hysignon. xD


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

nawilson89 said:


> I would assume that you would be full stocked with those fish. So awesome to get your hands on Dario Hysignon. xD


I thought it might be full, but it's so hard to tell. Nanofish plus plants as a partial filter...it's all brand new to me. I've seen people with nearly as many in tanks half the size. Just because I saw it doesn't mean it's right though.

The Dario hysginon were cheap (well I guess, never seen them for sale anywhere else). I've gotten all my fish from the same lady and she just got in Burmese rosy loaches. Part of the reason I wanted to know if I had more room.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Fish arrived today! I forgot that she sends extras so I got an extra chili rasbora (11) to go with the 12 I had. I also got 4m/2f of the Dario, but with the tank size not a big deal. I'm sure it's hard trying to net a tiny fish of a certain sex. There was a third Dario female, but sadly she died in transit.

That means that the tank total will eventually be 23 Boraras brigittae, 6 Dario hysginon, and 9 Yunnanilus cruciatus. Just for fun I tried putting all that in AqAdvisor. It's a tool only I know. The loaches weren't even listed, nor was the Dario. Also it seems to think the slightly smaller B. brigittae uses more space/bioload than B. maculatus. So my extremely fudged number was 74%.

I'll be mixing up some of the Repashy to give to both of my tank later. I'm really curious, because I've heard good things. A gelatin for fish is kind of unique.


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Haven't updated this in a few months, but there has been some really big changes. I tried taking pictures, pre-trimming but for some reason they came out greenish. I've had some small algae problems (nothing too bad) but green water wasn't one. Green dust algae on the glass has come and been defeated. BBA appeared and I've been brutal in trying to eliminate it. I do mean brutal. I've ripped out entire plants to stop it from spreading and that might have been enough to solve it. Well it might have, if I really want completely through with it. I'm loathe to rip out my sunset hygro given the difficulty I had in finding a legal source for it. 

To further prevent algae I'm only leaving the lights on 7 hours a day. I've also tried to adjust my two flow bars so that there are no dead spots (all the BBA occurred in the same area of the tank where the flow was poor). One more thing...I've added CO2. I was very nervous about that and the fish. The fish could seem to care less. There's enough fast growing plants in my tank that I'm guessing there's plenty of O2 even with the CO2. I've yet to see any red gills or gasping for breath. Just a lot of active fish.

Speaking of fish, I don't believe I have lost one yet. It's hard to try and count Boraras though. There's at least 20 of them still in there, possibly more of course. The Yunnanilus cruciatus and Dario hysginon are all accounted for at 9 and 6 a piece. I've controlled the urge to add any more fish, although I would certainly love to. Just am clueless if I have the space. Snails I have not been so lucky with. My pond snails are fine. Malaysian trumpet snails? I put them in, they dig into the substrate, the next day I find them dead on the substrate. No idea why and it seems cruel to keep trying.

Plant rundown since I tinkered of course
Hygrophila pinnatifida
Hygrophila polysperma 'sunset'
Limnophila aromatica
Heteranthera zosterifolia (Stargrass)-This one isn't Asian, but it's my second fastest grower so I hate to take it out.
Persicaria 'Kawagoeanum'
Rotala rotundifolia
Rotala 'green'
Rotala 'Yao Yai'
Rotala 'Bangladesh'
Rotala macranda 'Japan red'-really proud of myself for keeping something so hard alive and growing well for months
Rotala 'nanjenshan'
Rotala 'pearl'-well this one has been ordered

Not much for me to do at the moment aside from decide how I want to change things around, figure out if I can add more fish, and and enjoy the tank which I certainly have been.


----------



## nawilson89 (Apr 9, 2012)

Great! Good to know everything is going well with your tank!


----------



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Fish are easy! I was without an aquarium for almost ten years and only set up my first about a year ago. Sadly I've lost four fish in that time. I can live with that though as I still have 54. The plants I'm doing better with, but still have a ways to go. I'm definitely getting a lot better. Well aside from snails. I wish I could figure that one out. I wonder if ramshorn snails would be a good or bad idea.


----------

