# Fish are just dropping over :(



## Fishoutofwater (Feb 5, 2012)

Tank:
125gallon
Filtration: FX5
12 Assorted African Cichlids(about 2-3 inches)
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 20
Ph: 7.6
Lava Rock with sand

Fishless cycle took about 2 months and followed it to the letter. Tank has been up and running with fish for 2 months now.

Ok here is the scoop. About 2 weeks ago i had a nasty nitrate spike(over 100) I caught it fairly early. I did multiple water changes, added duckweed, and added 2 Fluval Clearmax media to the filter. Got it under control in under 48 hours. The tap water has about 10ppm nitrates.
One fish died during that time very slowly. Since that time, 2 fish have died almost instantly. I fed them in the morning and no one was showing any negative signs, then literally 2-3 hours later they're upside down and dead. Now another is dying very slowly. just sitting at the bottom mouth opening and closing. I don't get it, water chemistry is perfect and I have been very stickler about my WC for these 2 months. 
Please help as I don't like seeing fish that i picked out and spent a good chunk of change on die. Thank you.


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## Fishoutofwater (Feb 5, 2012)

Well I did a few more tests and found that my tap water is very high in ph(about 8.8). So by the time I do a WC each week the ph in the tank has dropped to 7.6, but when I add the new water it's at 8.8. Could this be the cause? If so, what is the best way to deal with this? Get the new water down to match the tank water ph? Or gradually raise the tank water ph so that is closely matches the new water?


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## Fishoutofwater (Feb 5, 2012)

Anyone?


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## corina savin (Jul 11, 2012)

Don't mess up with pH. But I am curious about what is it in the tank that is targeting the pH? I have some doubts about decorations and how safe they are for fish. I say that because I killed some guppies with plastic plants that were supposed to be aquarium safe.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

What percentage do you WC?

+1 above. I would only mess with the pH as a last resort.


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## Fishoutofwater (Feb 5, 2012)

30% and the ph is getting messed with regardless everytime I do a water change.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

When the city was messing with pH I started doing two 10% water changes per week to avoid pH shock. Don't know if that's what's going on here but it's my best guess. Check for symptoms and see if it fits.

Good luck!


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## Fishoutofwater (Feb 5, 2012)

Hmmm I might try that. If there a way to figure out how much RO or Distilled water I could add to the tap water to get close to the 7.6ph that's in the tank?


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Fishoutofwater said:


> Hmmm I might try that. If there a way to figure out how much RO or Distilled water I could add to the tap water to get close to the 7.6ph that's in the tank?


I don't know. I think the smaller changes will do the trick.


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## corina savin (Jul 11, 2012)

Distilled water will soften the water. Not a good idea for hard water fish like African cichlids. Fluctuating the hardness is worse for fish.


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## Fishoutofwater (Feb 5, 2012)

corina savin said:


> Distilled water will soften the water. Not a good idea for hard water fish like African cichlids. Fluctuating the hardness is worse for fish.


But if it's only enough to lower the ph and mixed with tap water which is hard would it be ok? Would RO water be the better choice here?


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## corina savin (Jul 11, 2012)

If you mix equal parts of RO (or distilled) water (GH=0, pH7) with tap water (say GH 200ppm, pH 8.8), the mix will have a GH of 100 ppm but the pH will not be 7.9 because tap water will have some carbonates that will buffer the pH toward the 8.8.

Natural waters are generally soft and acid or hard and alkaline. While it is true that moving fish from one to another will cause stress, it is the change in hardness that affects the osmolarity that the fish will have trouble adapting, not the pH itself.

People using pH controller to inject CO2 can tell how pH drops during injection a full unit in less than 30 minutes. In well planted ponds, pH fluctuates by 4 units of pH during the day because of photosynthesis, and that happens every day. Fish are not affected because osmolarity does not change.

For me, changes in pH killing fish is a myth.


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## Fishoutofwater (Feb 5, 2012)

So what would your suggestion be then?


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## Fishoutofwater (Feb 5, 2012)

I did a hardness test of the tank water and the tap. 4 days after my last water change and the GH is 6 while the KH is 4, the tap water is 3KH and 6GH. I used the API liquid tests. This seems low for African Cichlids. If so how can I raise it?


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## corina savin (Jul 11, 2012)

Crushed corals, cuttle-bone pieces or limestone rocks, all are high in Calcium carbonate and will raise both GH and Kh. Epson salt is Magnesium sulfate: will raise Gh only.


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## Fishoutofwater (Feb 5, 2012)

Thank you. How much crushed coral should I use If I use it inside my filter? Also, Any thoughts on the hardness, is it too low? Also, I put some untreated tap water in a bucket and let it sit over night. I tested the ph after about 16 hours and it dropped to about 7.9 so almost a whole point. The ph drops fast in the tap water. Does this help me at all?


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## corina savin (Jul 11, 2012)

I have no idea why pH drops in sitting water. It must be a gas leaving the water. If it were CO2, the pH will raise, not drop. Fresh RO water will acidify in minutes because of CO2 from air reaching equilibrium with water (but RO has no buffers). I hope others can help....

I don't keep African Cichlids but I know people using crush coral sand as a substrate in their tanks. Anything that fits in a filter cannot be too much...


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## Fishoutofwater (Feb 5, 2012)

I bought a 15lbs bag of Caribsea Crushed Coral. I've read that taking some pantyhose and making a mesh bag for the crushed coral will work. I want to place it in my FX5. Will any brand of pantyhose work? How much crushed coral should I put in the filter? It won't raise the hardness and ph too fast will it? Thanks.


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## Fishoutofwater (Feb 5, 2012)

I put two cups worth in 100% nylon 2 days ago. So far no change. Is this a very gradual thing?


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## Phae (Aug 13, 2014)

Your problem sounds like a buffering issue. Is your sand specifically Aragonite sand? A pH of 7.5 is too low for most African Cichlids, pH should sit between 8.0-8.6, depending on variety of cichlid, which, if you know, is IMPORTANT, with a hardness ranging from 9 to 16 DH, also depending on cichlid variety, which is, again IMPORTANT. Lava rock is inert and doesn't add any minerals (hardness) to the water, which cichlids need. You'd do better to add some Aragonite and Limestone rock decor. You may be using the wrong water conditioner for your needs (I'd say you absolutely are, but someone here will have used what you're using successfully, but there are much better options for cichlids). 

If you have fish dying, is getting them to a safe water parameters too fast an issue? Sounds like they are going to die if you don't. 

I also agree with whomever said take out ALL nonessential decor until you get this figured out. 

Changing PH/hardness via substrate is gradual, the minerals have to break down out of the coral/shell. Why do you not want to just use the whole bag of crushed coral as part of your substrate? CaribSea makes a Aragonite based african ciclid-specific substrate which is even better, it comes with the proper PH and hardness already in the bag, I suggest mixing both into your sand (or replacing part of it). Is there a reason not to change some of the substrate, other than a purely an aesthetics issue? (CaribSea's cichild substrates do come in various colors) 
I'd pour the whole darn bag of crushed coral in there right now (rinse it first), and in the meantime, order a bag or two of CaribSea's Eco-Complete African Cichlid substrate (CaribSea Eco-Complete? Cichlid) and then add all of it as well when it comes in (don't rinse that one, it comes complete/balanced). In the meantime, don't add any water directly from the tap, if the water is gassing off somehow in the bucket to what the tank sits stable at overnight, why not just buy more buckets and let all your water sit in them overnight before adding? This is actually a better way to do water changes anyway. You can buy rubbermaid tubs that hold 20 gallons of water. Mix all your water conditioners/buffers/additives into the water in the tub, then dump a cup or two of your tank's substrate into the tub as well, and let it sit at least 24 hours, test it before adding it to the tank (you'll need a small heater to get the water in the tub to the same temperature as is in the tank unless you live in a warm place - an air bubbler to oxygenate is also helpful in the tub, especially if it is gassing off something from your water). Bring the pH in the tub to the same as is in the tank before adding it to the tank (someone else said pH wasn't important, I disagree, if you are losing fish, and your only serious tank issue is wildly fluctuating pH at water changes, then worry about the pH, everything I have read says cichlids are sensitive to pH changes). Once you get a better substrate for the fish you have, it will correct/buffer to a higher PH and harder water for the fish you have, which do better in a higher PH and harder water than your tank currently settles into.
Now, about that buffering and water conditioning issue...
Here's a snippet I copied from elsewhere that explains buffering and what it means in the most simple terms I could find:
Carbonate hardness (DH), also known as “buffering capacity” or “total alkalinity,” is a measurement of carbonates and bicarbonates in the water. It is best described as water’s ability to keep the pH stable as acids or bases are added – almost acting like a sponge for those additives so they cannot affect the pH. Without adequate buffering, the pH in your aquarium will eventually drop because the end result of the nitrogen cycle is nitrate (nitric acid), which slowly builds up between water changes. With sufficient buffering the pH remains stable. For Rift Lake cichlids 10 to 14 DH. For Malawi cichlids from 6 to 10 DH. For Lake Tanganyika cichlids 10 to 12 DH. There are many African cichlid specific buffers out there. You need to know what type of cichlids you have, as they require specific buffers. Changing the substrate to a coral/shell/aragonite substrate, adding appropriate rocks/shells, and using the correct buffer and a cichlid-specific water conditioner will probably fix your issues. Here's a link to a small selection of many of the things you need to get there: Pet Supplies, Dog Supplies, Cat Supplies, Pet Meds & Pet Products - Search Results for cichlid conditioner (I have ordered here and had good results, but I am not saying these are the only options, there are MANY cichlid buffers, conditioners, and tank additives in many places, this is a starting point)


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