# 150g South American rainforest



## lesandjill (May 25, 2012)

Hi Bryon,

I, too, am interested in setting up a 150-gallon aquarium in a South American rainforest biotrope/biome; so I read your post with great interest.

I would like to add as the main occupants, small, peaceful South American "core" tetras, including both "schooling" and "group/pack" species (The terms in parenthesis are from Randy Carey's _Tetras and Barbs_, which I recently read. Here are my questions:

Which species of tetras would you recommend and how many of each would you include?

What other fish would meet the requirements and be compatible with these tetras that should be included in the tank?

Two of my favorites are tiger barbs (Puntius tetrazona) and harlequin fish (Trigonostigma heteromopha). Unfortunately, they do not meet the criteria due to their Asian origin. Furthermore, while I favor these fish because of their color, I debated tiger barbs in any community tank because of their reputation as nippers. Are there any South American counterparts that might be substituted to provide the same coloration patterns?

Thank you for your time and cooperation. I welcome your suggestions and recommendations and look forward to receiving your reply.

Les Taylor


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

First, welcome to Tropical Fish Keeping forum. Glad you joined us.:-D

Second, I moved this post out of the older thread to start its own, as I explained in my PM. Now more members will see it.

Third, to your questions. It would help to have your water parameters for the source water (presumably tap). GH (general hardness), KH (carbonate hardness or Alkalinity) and pH. Depending what these numbers are, I can suggest fish species. And, I assume you do want to stay with South America geographically?

Byron.


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## lesandjill (May 25, 2012)

Hi Byron,

I have not been an active aquarist for nearly 50 years, but this has always been a dream of mine. The complete aquarium setup will be done by a member of the Boston Aquarium Society who has been a long-time hobbyist who does this professionally. An added bonus is that he raises and breeds South American fish. So, I cannot provide the information you asked for. All I can say is that he will set the 150-gallon aquarium up to replicate a South American rainforest biotope with the appropriate strata, plants, temperature and water requirements. The only real input I will have is the fish selection. Thus, my post. Sorry I could not provide more information. 
Les


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

lesandjill said:


> Hi Byron,
> 
> I have not been an active aquarist for nearly 50 years, but this has always been a dream of mine. The complete aquarium setup will be done by a member of the Boston Aquarium Society who has been a long-time hobbyist who does this professionally. An added bonus is that he raises and breeds South American fish. So, I cannot provide the information you asked for. All I can say is that he will set the 150-gallon aquarium up to replicate a South American rainforest biotope with the appropriate strata, plants, temperature and water requirements. The only real input I will have is the fish selection. Thus, my post. Sorry I could not provide more information.
> Les


Well since your water will be taken care of professionally....have you considered Discus? They are my favorite amazon fish. I want them as my centerpiece for my dream Amazon tank. They are very peaceful.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Welcome to TFK. Glad you are getting back into fish! :-D
Do you know if you are getting an RO water system? You can get your water tested for free at most pet shops. This is pretty vital to choosing the fish. With an RO system you get control over parameters, otherwise we have to work with what's in your tap.

Sadly both barbs and rasbora are not found in South America. 
We have Tropical Fish Profiles found at the top of this page. The link has many fish organized into categories. You might want to look into the Characins section, which includes tetra and pencil fish, as most of these are found in South america. Coral red pencilfish is one you may be interested in, the closest thing to the barbs colourwise (click the highlighted names to visit the profile). A small, sensitive fish, I'm sure once we come up with a stocking plan your friend will help you out with parameter issues, but it's important to choose fish that all can live in the same range. The requirements for each fish are listed in their profiles. 
Besides the characins, you can look into catfish. Probably the friendliest and most varied catfish are the Corydoras, or cories. There's lot's of species, all from South America. They stay small and are active schooling fish.
For a centerpiece fish, there are rams, which I think are the most peaceful South America cichlids, but I don't know much about them so I'll leave that to someone else. :-D


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

I agree, knowing the water parameters such as pH, gH and kH are very important and will dictate what you keep.

If you don't know ask the person who will be setting this up. The fish you can keep will rely on this information.


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## lesandjill (May 25, 2012)

Hi Again Byron,

I e-mailed a request to the future installer and he simply stated that the water quality - "pH, gH and kH" - will be as close to replicating that of the South American rainforest backwater (soft and acidic) pH 6.0-8.0 and hardness 3 - 8 according to Randy Carey, _Barbs and Tetras_, which I have been using as a guide.
There is no problem with having the installer suggest what fish to consider. I was just hoping to get another perspective from someone like yourself who has the knowledge and expertise to offer what might be another opinion. 
I would also like to add that suggestions or recommendations from folks like Termato and Olympia who, I presume, are also interested in this topic have offered the names of fish that I might consider are appreciated. 
Since the improvement in technology and equipment in the interim since I was last active (beyond reading) is astonishing, I am leaving everything else to the installer. My only imput will be what fish - provided they fit the natural conditions - to include. That's why I am open to other ideas and suggestions. While the installer will ultimately decide whether or not we should include them, at least I can research the suggestions using various online fish profiles (as Olympia suggested) and compile a list of possibilities that I like.


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## lesandjill (May 25, 2012)

Hi Olympia,

Assuming that you have successfully kept the beautiful coral red pencil fish, which is close to many barbs, colorwise how difficult did you find it to keep? While there is no doubting that it is a stunner, the "profile" you linked it to indicates that "This fish may have multiple properties that make a fish moderately difficult to care for and is, therefore, only recommended to experienced fish keepers."


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

I personally have never kept any type of pencil fish as I have hard water and no control over it.
The profile does say that, mostly because this fish is sensitive about gH and pH. There may be a few other reasons, I think Byron has kept pencil fish in the past so he may have more insight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

lesandjill said:


> I e-mailed a request to the future installer and he simply stated that the water quality - "pH, gH and kH" - will be as close to replicating that of the South American rainforest backwater (soft and acidic) pH 6.0-8.0 and hardness 3 - 8 according to Randy Carey, _Barbs and Tetras_, which I have been using as a guide.
> There is no problem with having the installer suggest what fish to consider. I was just hoping to get another perspective from someone like yourself who has the knowledge and expertise to offer what might be another opinion.
> I would also like to add that suggestions or recommendations from folks like Termato and Olympia who, I presume, are also interested in this topic have offered the names of fish that I might consider are appreciated.


Discus are not the easiest fish to keep. They are beautiful and absolutely my favorite Fish in the Amazon. Their colors are vibrant and they are very peaceful. I am only suggesting it to you as this would be my dream tank. I will also make a second more practical stocking recommendation for you:



> Compatibility/Temperament: Should always be kept in a group of 5 or more except for breeding. Very peaceful, but will become territorial during all stages of spawning. A very sedate fish, that should never be maintained with active, boisterous or aggressive fish. Suitable companions are small catfish, characins (hatchetfish, larger pencilfish and splash tetras, medium tetra), rasbora (Trigonostigma sp), dwarf cichlids. Although they occur sympatrically in their habitat, discus should not be kept with angelfish primarily because of the more aggressive feeding habits of the angelfish that may prove detrimental to the health of the discus [Jack Wattley]. Do see that fishes selected for tankmates sharte similar water conditions with respect to warmer waters that these fish prefer.
> 
> Read more: Discus (Symphysodon aequifasciatus) Profile


With that information I would do this:

15 Discus
35 Cardinal Tetra
20 Sterbai Corydoras
20 Diamond Tetra

All these fish are compatible in their temperament, water parameters and beauty. Let me know what you think. You could lower the number of Cardinals to 25 and discus to 11 or 12 to minimize the bio load but I think that would be a beautiful tank.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Assuming now that the water will be very soft and slightly acidic, the choice of fish is limitless. I also recommend you browse the profiles, look at the fish species under Characins (the tetra, pencilfish, hatchetfish are there), and then the Catfish, and perhaps Cichlids (some of both categories are South American). The profiles suggest compatibility issues, numbers for each species, any special decor. The habitat info is also included, both source and specifics of the watercourse (quiet stream, flooded forest, fast river...these are critical as fish from each of these will not always work together).

On the coral red pencilfish, yes, i have a group of wild caught fish that have spawned regularly and I have fry developing in the same tank. I have kept most all of the pencilfish in the profiles. I can answer any questions on this group of fish though there is good info in the profiles (i wrote them).

Byron.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

Byron said:


> Assuming now that the water will be very soft and slightly acidic, the choice of fish is limitless. I also recommend you browse the profiles, look at the fish species under Characins (the tetra, pencilfish, hatchetfish are there), and then the Catfish, and perhaps Cichlids (some of both categories are South American). The profiles suggest compatibility issues, numbers for each species, any special decor. The habitat info is also included, both source and specifics of the watercourse (quiet stream, flooded forest, fast river...these are critical as fish from each of these will not always work together).
> 
> On the coral red pencilfish, yes, i have a group of wild caught fish that have spawned regularly and I have fry developing in the same tank. I have kept most all of the pencilfish in the profiles. I can answer any questions on this group of fish though there is good info in the profiles (i wrote them).
> 
> Byron.


Would the Coral Red Pencil fish be too small to keep with Discus?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Termato said:


> Would the Coral Red Pencil fish be too small to keep with Discus?


Perhaps, depending upon circumstances. When the discus begin approaching their 5-6 inch size, they should not have small torpedo-shaped fish present, but if the fish had all grown up in the same tank, the discus might not be inclined to regard them as food, since the other fish would be mature-sized too. After all, cardinal tetra are often suggested as suitable fish with discus, though I believe Jack Wattley has cautioned against this. I don't think this is as much an issue as it is with angelfish, which are more predatory by nature.


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## lesandjill (May 25, 2012)

Thanks again Olympia and Termato. At this point I am just looking for suggestions and recommendations to consider. How did you conclude that 90 fish would be the appropriate number to house in a 150 gallon aquarium? A long time ago, the rule of thumb was one inch per gallon. I'm assuming with all the new equipment and technology available today, that has changed?
My major dilemma is the ago-old one of wanting to include as many different varieties of small, peaceful, colorful "core tetras" (keeping in mind that there are some with "schooling" and "pack/group" habits) while having enough members of each variety for the proper visual affect. 
I'm also looking for other varieties of fish that meet the biotope conditions that will complement the tetras. Some that would swim at different levels such as hatchetfish and headstanders, but also some larger in size - without being so large that the tetras serve as tasty morsels. I was considering discus (not angels), but additional reading suggests that I might have to settle for one of the peaceful South American dwarf ciclids. 
Again, I am open to suggestions, especially from posters on this website who have far more expertise and experience than I.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

lesandjill said:


> Thanks again Olympia and Termato. At this point I am just looking for suggestions and recommendations to consider. How did you conclude that 90 fish would be the appropriate number to house in a 150 gallon aquarium? A long time ago, the rule of thumb was one inch per gallon. I'm assuming with all the new equipment and technology available today, that has changed?
> My major dilemma is the ago-old one of wanting to include as many different varieties of small, peaceful, colorful "core tetras" (keeping in mind that there are some with "schooling" and "pack/group" habits) while having enough members of each variety for the proper visual affect.
> I'm also looking for other varieties of fish that meet the biotope conditions that will complement the tetras. Some that would swim at different levels such as hatchetfish and headstanders, but also some larger in size - without being so large that the tetras serve as tasty morsels. I was considering discus (not angels), but additional reading suggests that I might have to settle for one of the peaceful South American dwarf ciclids.
> Again, I am open to suggestions, especially from posters on this website who have far more expertise and experience than I.


I'll answer this in general terms at this point.

The number of fish that any aquarium can accommodate is dependent upon several factors. A 150g aquarium might house 500 or more fish, or it may only house 1 or 2 and be maxed out. Depends upon the fish--and not just their size, but their temperament, behaviours, environmental needs, etc. The inch of fish per gallon "guide" is faulty at best if these other factors are not considered in the equation. And filtration [referring to your "new equipment and technology"] plays some part in this but a very small part.

The fish themselves are the significant factor. They must share near-identical requirements in environment: meaning water parameters (GH, pH and temperature) and aquascape--wood, rock, sand, gravel, plants, level of light/shade, water flow either minimal or stronger...fish have differing needs in all these areas. Then of course there is the natural behaviour which determines numbers, species that will co-habitat, etc.

All of the afore-mentioned factors affect fish significantly; stress is caused when any environmental factor required by the fish is not provided.

We can delve into specifics from here.

Byron.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

Byron said:


> I'll answer this in general terms at this point.
> 
> The number of fish that any aquarium can accommodate is dependent upon several factors. A 150g aquarium might house 500 or more fish, or it may only house 1 or 2 and be maxed out. Depends upon the fish--and not just their size, but their temperament, behaviours, environmental needs, etc. The inch of fish per gallon "guide" is faulty at best if these other factors are not considered in the equation. And filtration [referring to your "new equipment and technology"] plays some part in this but a very small part.
> 
> ...


Well said Byron, Thank you.

The one inch per gallon rule is really meant to keep beginners from overstocking their tanks.

With the fish I suggested and the full Amazon scape you plan, it would be fine having those fish. You could even bring each school of tetra down to 15 to have a nice schooling effect and have 4 different species such as cardinals, diamond, some pencil fish, and a species of hatchets. All possibilities.

*Honestly, it will be easier if you can name the species you would like to have in the tank from our suggestions, your research, etc. then we can give you some good stocking ideas.*

Stocking a tank is really based on the size of the fish, the plants in the tank and the experience level of the fish keeper (and a few other variables like Byron mentioned). When keeping bigger fish, they produce a higher bio load which means you can't have as many fish. 

--------

*Discus are Cichlids.* 
Scientific Name: Symphysodon aequifasciatus
Family: Cichlidae, Subfamily Cichlasomatinae

Heckel Discus
Scientific Name: Symphysodon discus
Family: Cichlidae, Subfamily Cichlasomatinae

Click the gray to see the profile.

They are actually, as far as I know, the MOST peaceful cichlids. Bolivian Rams are also peaceful, but they are not as big and require cooler waters than the Discus.


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## lesandjill (May 25, 2012)

There are so many small, peaceful, colorful tetras that I would like to include as many of these as possible while keeping the numbers of each large enough for the proper affect. So, here goes - green fire, blue, rummy nose, glowlight, pretty, blue king, bleeding heart, flame, lemon, Hyphessobrycon rosecus, Hyphessobrycon sweglesi, ornate, cardinal, neon, green neon, emperor and red-eye emperor. Habitat might be a better term than biotope, as I am more concerned that the fish selected have similar water and temperature requirements. Color contrasts and behavioral characteristics should also be a factor. So, which ones would you recommend and how many of each?
What tetra relatives would you suggest (hatchetfish and pencil fish) for the upper level of the aquarium? Which ones and how many?
What catfish would you recommend for the bottom level of the aquarium and how many?
Would either discus or angelfish provide the large inhabitants that seem to be missing or would they not be compatible with tetras because of either water and temperature conditions or because the smaller tetras might become fish food? Which and how many?
What about the smaller, peaceful South American ciclids? Which and how many? 
I hope that this provides some guidelines for your suggestions and recommendations. In any case, it should allow you to get more specific. In the meantime, I will continue to research the web for ideas and information before I go any further.
Thanks for your time and cooperation. I look forward to your input on this matter and am, at this point, open to your replies.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

lesandjill said:


> There are so many small, peaceful, colorful tetras that I would like to include as many of these as possible while keeping the numbers of each large enough for the proper affect. So, here goes - green fire, blue, rummy nose, glowlight, pretty, blue king, bleeding heart, flame, lemon, Hyphessobrycon rosecus, Hyphessobrycon sweglesi, ornate, cardinal, neon, green neon, emperor and red-eye emperor. Habitat might be a better term than biotope, as I am more concerned that the fish selected have similar water and temperature requirements. Color contrasts and behavioral characteristics should also be a factor. So, which ones would you recommend and how many of each?
> What tetra relatives would you suggest (hatchetfish and pencil fish) for the upper level of the aquarium? Which ones and how many?
> What catfish would you recommend for the bottom level of the aquarium and how many?
> Would either discus or angelfish provide the large inhabitants that seem to be missing or would they not be compatible with tetras because of either water and temperature conditions or because the smaller tetras might become fish food? Which and how many?
> ...


There are too many species listed here for me to dissect the issues, but I will say that some of these cannot be kept together. Please have a read of our profiles, these are all included as far as I know. Their individual traits and issues are documented there, and i would only be repeating what i put in the profiles if I were to spell this out. If you narrow things down considerably, I might have more to say.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

lesandjill said:


> There are so many small, peaceful, colorful tetras that I would like to include as many of these as possible while keeping the numbers of each large enough for the proper affect. So, here goes - green fire, blue, rummy nose, glowlight, pretty, blue king, bleeding heart, flame, lemon, Hyphessobrycon rosecus, Hyphessobrycon sweglesi, ornate, cardinal, neon, green neon, emperor and red-eye emperor. Habitat might be a better term than biotope, as I am more concerned that the fish selected have similar water and temperature requirements. Color contrasts and behavioral characteristics should also be a factor. So, which ones would you recommend and how many of each?
> What tetra relatives would you suggest (hatchetfish and pencil fish) for the upper level of the aquarium? Which ones and how many?
> What catfish would you recommend for the bottom level of the aquarium and how many?
> Would either discus or angelfish provide the large inhabitants that seem to be missing or would they not be compatible with tetras because of either water and temperature conditions or because the smaller tetras might become fish food?


Please read the profiles. Like Byron said, a lot of these do not go in the same water.

Before picking bottom level fish. Please choose the main fish in the tank.

Yes, Discus make perfect centerpiece fish. You can use any of the tetras I suggested or the pencil fish that Byron suggested along with them. They prefer water above 80F.



lesandjill said:


> Which and how many?


I have specified species in above posts same as numbers. At least 15 of each species would create a good schooling effect.



lesandjill said:


> What about the smaller, peaceful South American ciclids? Which and how many?


None that I know of will work with Discus. Water parameters and temperaments will cause issues.

If you choose not to keep discus then it is a different story. Discus in my opinion are THE amazon fish :-D:-D their just beautiful.

Byron, what do you think about the cichlids?



lesandjill said:


> I hope that this provides some guidelines for your suggestions and recommendations. In any case, it should allow you to get more specific. In the meantime, I will continue to research the web for ideas and information before I go any further.
> Thanks for your time and cooperation. I look forward to your input on this matter and am, at this point, open to your replies.


Please read what we have posted above in previous posts as many of the questions you have are already answer.

Thanks.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

> Byron, what do you think about the cichlids?


In general I never recomend more than one species of cichlid in a given tank--and understand, here we are talking South American cichlids, not African rift lake which is quite another matter. It can work depending upon species and in very large tanks.

Discus or angelfish (never together) would be a nice centrepiece, with suitable shoals of characins and substrate fish.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

Byron said:


> In general I never recomend more than one species of cichlid in a given tank--and understand, here we are talking South American cichlids, not African rift lake which is quite another matter. It can work depending upon species and in very large tanks.
> 
> Discus or angelfish (never together) would be a nice centrepiece, with suitable shoals of characins and substrate fish.


Yes so Discus OR Angelfish, never together, for Cichlids.

You could do Bolivian Rams but the problem with that is they are smaller fish and not really centerpiece. Their small and stay low.

Discus would always be my choice.


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## lesandjill (May 25, 2012)

Please be advised that I have read the previous posts. In fact, not only did I read the various tetra "Fish Profiles," but I printed them and added them to my growing notebook of information. However, some of them didn't come up when I typed in their scientific name and I didn't locate them until I discovered the "index" after the last reminder. Using Randy Carey's book, _Tetras and Barbs_, I was under the impression that the "core tetras," which were included on my list above had similar water requirements. So, my major decision - I thought - was to make my choices based upon visual contrast of color and behavior (schooling in synchrony, interacting as a pack/group i or schooling loosely (Mr. Carey's terms). 
In fact, I grouped the tetra profiles in three catagories: 1. very easy, will tolerate a wide range of water parameters, 2. easy, does well in a slightly more narrow range of water parameters and 3. moderate, may tolerate only a narrow range of water parameters. Further, I googled each tetra for more specific information and listed their temperature, pH and hardness requirements. It looked as though the varieties I listed fit within the ranges of each. I do, however, plan on making a chart to document and verify this observation.
Once I decided to add a larger species and asked for your assistance as to whether it should be discus or angelfish, I could eliminate the smaller tetras (under two inches) from the list. What am I overlooking? Which of the varieties listed are not compatible?
Speaking of the "Queen of the Amazon," remember, my main interest is having as many varieties of tetras in sufficient numbers - usually a dozen or more - that can be included in a 150 gallon aquarium. So, I am more inclined to have five or six small discus, rather than 15.
Finally, I am looking for suggestions and ideas, but plan to use any information that I receive to help make my final decision. 
Thanks to everyone for the input. I DO read andconsider all suggestions, recommendations and advice posted.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

lesandjill said:


> Please be advised that I have read the previous posts. In fact, not only did I read the various tetra "Fish Profiles," but I printed them and added them to my growing notebook of information. However, some of them didn't come up when I typed in their scientific name and I didn't locate them until I discovered the "index" after the last reminder. Using Randy Carey's book, _Tetras and Barbs_, I was under the impression that the "core tetras," which were included on my list above had similar water requirements. So, my major decision - I thought - was to make my choices based upon visual contrast of color and behavior (schooling in synchrony, interacting as a pack/group i or schooling loosely (Mr. Carey's terms).
> In fact, I grouped the tetra profiles in three catagories: 1. very easy, will tolerate a wide range of water parameters, 2. easy, does well in a slightly more narrow range of water parameters and 3. moderate, may tolerate only a narrow range of water parameters. Further, I googled each tetra for more specific information and listed their temperature, pH and hardness requirements. It looked as though the varieties I listed fit within the ranges of each. I do, however, plan on making a chart to document and verify this observation.
> Once I decided to add a larger species and asked for your assistance as to whether it should be discus or angelfish, I could eliminate the smaller tetras (under two inches) from the list. What am I overlooking? Which of the varieties listed are not compatible?
> Speaking of the "Queen of the Amazon," remember, my main interest is having as many varieties of tetras in sufficient numbers - usually a dozen or more - that can be included in a 150 gallon aquarium. So, I am more inclined to have five or six small discus, rather than 15.
> ...


I was just making sure you had read through it. My apologies.

Discus prefer warm temperatures of over 80F, while the angels have a little bit wider temperature range from 76 to 86F. Therefore angels give you a bit more options as to the tetras you can keep.

This is the main concern when stocking the tank with these main fish. Their water parameters must be taken into account when stocking the rest of the fish.

I would first pick Angel or Discus. Angels are naturally more aggressive and will be more likely to eat smaller tetras. From there we could move onto selecting the tetras to go with them. This way you can work the tetras schools based on the required parameters.

5-7 Small discus would allow you to have many more smaller schools of tetras, as you desire. That is a good idea. With this many discus you could probably get away with 4 schools of about 20-22 fish or 5 schools of 18-20 fish. I would not go under 15. This is mainly because you have a 150 gallon tank. Fewer numbers might cause the schools to get lost in the giant crowd and and size of the tank. I would suggest 18 to 20 to create a BEAUTIFUL schooling effect. At the least 15. With that said I think you can pick 4-5 species of tetras and 1-2 species of substrate fish.

This would stock the tank completely IMO.

So are you set on discus? If so, we can help you find some more species of tetras that are compatible.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

lesandjill said:


> Please be advised that I have read the previous posts. In fact, not only did I read the various tetra "Fish Profiles," but I printed them and added them to my growing notebook of information. However, some of them didn't come up when I typed in their scientific name and I didn't locate them until I discovered the "index" after the last reminder. Using Randy Carey's book, _Tetras and Barbs_, I was under the impression that the "core tetras," which were included on my list above had similar water requirements. So, my major decision - I thought - was to make my choices based upon visual contrast of color and behavior (schooling in synchrony, interacting as a pack/group i or schooling loosely (Mr. Carey's terms).
> In fact, I grouped the tetra profiles in three catagories: 1. very easy, will tolerate a wide range of water parameters, 2. easy, does well in a slightly more narrow range of water parameters and 3. moderate, may tolerate only a narrow range of water parameters. Further, I googled each tetra for more specific information and listed their temperature, pH and hardness requirements. It looked as though the varieties I listed fit within the ranges of each. I do, however, plan on making a chart to document and verify this observation.
> Once I decided to add a larger species and asked for your assistance as to whether it should be discus or angelfish, I could eliminate the smaller tetras (under two inches) from the list. What am I overlooking? Which of the varieties listed are not compatible?
> Speaking of the "Queen of the Amazon," remember, my main interest is having as many varieties of tetras in sufficient numbers - usually a dozen or more - that can be included in a 150 gallon aquarium. So, I am more inclined to have five or six small discus, rather than 15.
> ...


If you could post your final chart I would be pleased to offer any suggestions if I should see issues. Concerning the parameters, GH and pH will be relatively similar obviously, but temperature can vary quite a bit. Then there is the issue of having sedate fish (cichlids of any species) as some of the characins will fin nip these, or annoy them with over-active swimming. Not all tetra behave the same.;-) These issues jumped out at me in your first post mentioning so many species. Other aspects of putting together a community involve the environment: water flow is important (forest fish tend to prefer quiet water, but some fish will need a current), light is crucial for some species, wood/rock/plants may be relavant.

A comment on internet information. The reliability depends upon the source; as other members frequently mention, there is some quite conflicting data out there, and it can't all be accurate. I wrote most of the freshwater fish and plant profiles on TFK and I do extensive research among acknowledged sources when compiling the data. The water parameters and other information is reliable because it is data that is agreed upon by biologists, ichthyologists and similar. So you can feel safe here.

Byron.


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## lesandjill (May 25, 2012)

Termato, this sounds closer to the plan I have envisioned. Thanks for your input. The discus and angelfish each have their pros and cons as it applies to the South American rainforest biotope aquarium I hope to have setup, so I had to decide between them and chose adding five or six, small discus. Can you suggest a variety that would best fit this habitat? Four schools of 18-20 sounds like a good plan as I have not included the upper level (hatchetfish and pencilfish) and the lower level (corydoras, plecos) inhabitants.
Now, having made that decision, I am going to try and post my chart for his consideration.
I would like very much for your comments and corrections. Once the information is authenticated, I can than proceed with my selection of tetras. Please be advised that I plan to expand the chart to include some additional factors that might be useful. Should you think of any, kindly feel free to mention them. 

Core Tetra Temp  pH  U]Hardness[/U]

green tetra (Aphyocharax rathbuni) 72 - 80F 6.5 - 7.8 7 - 20
blue tetra (Boehlkea fredcochui) 72 - 82F 5.6 - 7.6 1 - 15 
rummy nose tetra (Hemmigrammus bleheri) 75 - 85F 6.0 - 8.0 2 - 12
glowlight tetra (Hemmigrammus erthrozonus) 75 - 82.5 6.0 - 8.0 5 - 12
pretty tetra (Hemmigrammus pulcher) 72 - 78 5.0 - 8.0 1 - 12
blue king tetra (Impaichthys kerri) 76 - 80 5.5 - 7.0 1 - 12
ornate tetra (Hyphessobrycon bentosi) 75 - 82 5.5 - 7.0 2 - 10
Copland's tetra (Hyphessobrycon copelandi) 75 - 82 4.5 - 5.5 0 - 4 
bleeding heart tetra (Hyph. erythrostigma) 72 - 77 6.0 - 6.5 4 - 8
black neon tetra (Hyph. herbertaxelrodi) 73 - 81 5.5 - 7.5 4 - 8 
black phantom tetra (Hyph. megalopterus) 72 - 82 6.0 - 7.5 2 - 20
rosy tetra (Hyphessobrycon rosaceus) 75 - 82 6.0 - 7.5 5 - 19
yellow phantom tetra (Hyph. rosecus) 74 - 80 5.5 - 7.5 1 - 20
lesser bleeding heart tetra (Hyph. socolofi) 72 - 77 6.0 - 7.2 1 - 10
red phantom tetra (Hyphessobrycon sweglesi) 68 - 77 5.5 - 7.5 4 - 20
cardinal tetra (Paracheirodon axelrodi) 73 - 81 4.0 - 6.0 0 - 10
red-eye emperor tetra (Nematobrycon lacortei) 73 - 80 5.6 - 7.2 1 - 12
emperor tetra (Nematobrycon palmeri) 72 - 77 5.0 - 7.5 5 - 12 
neon tetra (Paracheirodon innesi) 68 - 80 5.0 - 7.0 1 - 10
green neon tetra (Paracheirodon simulans) 73 - 80 4.0 - 6.5 0 - 8

I tried to use reliable online sites for the information above but, as Byron mentioned above, I'm sure that reliability and conflicting information is a problem. That's why I was disappointed that Byron didn't include this (specific) critical information in the "Fish Profiles." Hopefuilly, the data is correct and I typed it in the proper space (After a while, I was seeing numbers!!!!). It is obvious that the inclusion of discus will result in eliminating the smaller-sized tetras, perhaps those under two inches, and tetras whose temperature requirements are under 80F.
I look forward to any con structive suggestions, recommendations or comments that might assist me in the completion of this project.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

> I tried to use reliable online sites for the information above but, as Byron mentioned above, I'm sure that reliability and conflicting information is a problem. That's why I was disappointed that Byron didn't include this (specific) critical information in the "Fish Profiles." Hopefuilly, the data is correct and I typed it in the proper space (After a while, I was seeing numbers!!!!).


I'm a bit puzzled by this statement. The water parameters [GH, pH and temp] are included for every fish species in our profiles, under "Ideal Water Parameters for...[fish name]" which is the last category.:question:


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

lesandjill said:


> Termato, this sounds closer to the plan I have envisioned. Thanks for your input. The discus and angelfish each have their pros and cons as it applies to the South American rainforest biotope aquarium I hope to have setup, so I had to decide between them and chose adding five or six, small discus. Can you suggest a variety that would best fit this habitat? Four schools of 18-20 sounds like a good plan as I have not included the upper level (hatchetfish and pencilfish) and the lower level (corydoras, plecos) inhabitants.


Woa...how many total fish are you planning? the 4 schools pluss the hatchets and pencils AND the corys?

You can have 4 schools, if the hatchets and pencils are picked, then you can pick 2 more species.

If you do cories you might want to keep them between 8-10 so as to not overstock. One Pleco only, if Bristlenose of smaller species you can get away with a small group if you want to sacrifice the cories.



lesandjill said:


> Now, having made that decision, I am going to try and post my chart for his consideration.
> I would like very much for your comments and corrections. Once the information is authenticated, I can than proceed with my selection of tetras. Please be advised that I plan to expand the chart to include some additional factors that might be useful. Should you think of any, kindly feel free to mention them.
> 
> Core Tetra Temp  pH  U]Hardness[/U]
> ...


The ones I left are the options I think you can choose from. The rest would require slightly colder waters. You could try it but I don't recommend it.


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## lesandjill (May 25, 2012)

Sorry Byron, I did print out all of the species you had profiles of from Randy Carey's book, _Tetras and Barbs_, which I used as a species guide. I should have clarified my statement in that listing the ranges (minimum and maximum) for pH and GH (I learned something new) might have been even more helpful for a relative beginner such as myself. Or maybe its just me, who needs to have things spelled out exactly in black-and-white! In either case, I apologize for any misunderstanding as I have them in my notebook among the growing accumulation of reference materials that I plan to re-read during this rainy weekend. As I learn more, they take on greater meaning and become even more useful as a resource. In fact, I'm planning to re-read them today, as we are experiencing a rain-filled weekend. 
I'm interested in knowing whether or not you found the chart accurate and, if not, which listings need to be changed? More importantly, in your valued opinion, do you see any value in having and using such a chart as a reference? I plan to look the figures over again and re-check their accuracy now that I have a clearer mind this morning. I would not be surprised if I made some mistakes in transferring the information (Can I edit the post if that is the case?).
Based upon your post, Termato, I may have to reconsider the discus and go with four-six of one or two of the dwarf cichlids, such as Dicrossus filamentosus (checkerboard cichilid) or Apistogramma pandurini. I was thinking of perhaps a dozen hatchetfish and a dozen pencilfish - maybe a dozen each of two different varieties of pencilfish, a dozen corydoras (melini?) and perhaps one pleco. Are you saying that four or five groups of 12-18 tetras would be too much for the 150 gallon tank? If so, how would you par down the numbers? Do you think that using a dozen of this and a dozen of that would be too visually boring and that I should vary the number of each fish? And I haven't even gotten to the selection of plants!
Bryon and any other experienced aquarist out there is welcome - and encouraged - to chime in with your opinion, suggestions and ideas. I would certainly like to get all of my mistakes corrected - and I'm sure I've made many - beforethe installer comes in mid-June to set up this 150-gallon South American biotope aquarium! N.B. I'm using an erasable ballpoint to plan the fish and plant list for a reason.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

lesandjill said:


> Sorry Byron, I did print out all of the species you had profiles of from Randy Carey's book, _Tetras and Barbs_, which I used as a species guide. I should have clarified my statement in that listing the ranges (minimum and maximum) for pH and GH (I learned something new) might have been even more helpful for a relative beginner such as myself. Or maybe its just me, who needs to have things spelled out exactly in black-and-white! In either case, I apologize for any misunderstanding as I have them in my notebook among the growing accumulation of reference materials that I plan to re-read during this rainy weekend. As I learn more, they take on greater meaning and become even more useful as a resource. In fact, I'm planning to re-read them today, as we are experiencing a rain-filled weekend.
> I'm interested in knowing whether or not you found the chart accurate and, if not, which listings need to be changed? More importantly, in your valued opinion, do you see any value in having and using such a chart as a reference? I plan to look the figures over again and re-check their accuracy now that I have a clearer mind this morning. I would not be surprised if I made some mistakes in transferring the information (Can I edit the post if that is the case?).
> Based upon your post, Termato, I may have to reconsider the discus and go with four-six of one or two of the dwarf cichlids, such as Dicrossus filamentosus (checkerboard cichilid) or Apistogramma pandurini. I was thinking of perhaps a dozen hatchetfish and a dozen pencilfish - maybe a dozen each of two different varieties of pencilfish, a dozen corydoras (melini?) and perhaps one pleco. Are you saying that four or five groups of 12-18 tetras would be too much for the 150 gallon tank? If so, how would you par down the numbers? Do you think that using a dozen of this and a dozen of that would be too visually boring and that I should vary the number of each fish? And I haven't even gotten to the selection of plants!
> Bryon and any other experienced aquarist out there is welcome - and encouraged - to chime in with your opinion, suggestions and ideas. I would certainly like to get all of my mistakes corrected - and I'm sure I've made many - beforethe installer comes in mid-June to set up this 150-gallon South American biotope aquarium! N.B. I'm using an erasable ballpoint to plan the fish and plant list for a reason.


Just out of curiosity. Why would you have to reconsider the Discus? Is this beause you cannot keep as many schools of smaller fish?

How many TOTAL schools of fish do you want swimming through the tank? Not including cories or substrate fish, but ALL upper, mid and lower level non bottom feeder or algae eating fish.

I can give you a very good range of what to stock the tank with if you give me that information.


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## lesandjill (May 25, 2012)

The reason is that the discus' temperature requirements limit the varieties of tetras I can consider, although the adult size of the 5-6 discus, compared to the same number of dwarf cichlids would have to be considered - and that would affect the number. The more I read about the lovely discus also makes me wonder if I have the aquarium-keeping skills to meet their requirements (Mary Ellen Sweeney in _The Cichlid Room Companion_, said "Many experienced fishkeepers think of discus and groan that they are impossible to keep, make impossible demands and ultimately are simply not worth the effort"). So, I guess I could select discus and use temperature to limit the varieties of tetra or angelfish and limit the varieties based upon size (eliminating any under two inches). Or simply go with dwarf cichlids and have fewer, if any, limitations. Depending upon the number in each school (12-18 or various) , six or seven - hatchetfish; pencilfish; discus, angelfish or dwarf cichlids; and four different tetras based upon contrasting colors, i.e, cardinals, lemons, blue king, green fire, and/or black neon. 
Of course, I'm still waiting for evaluations of the chart, which I used to determine compatibility for my selections. 
Hope that answers your question?????


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

lesandjill said:


> The reason is that the discus' temperature requirements limit the varieties of tetras I can consider, although the adult size of the 5-6 discus, compared to the same number of dwarf cichlids would have to be considered - and that would affect the number. The more I read about the lovely discus also makes me wonder if I have the aquarium-keeping skills to meet their requirements (Mary Ellen Sweeney in _The Cichlid Room Companion_, said "Many experienced fishkeepers think of discus and groan that they are impossible to keep, make impossible demands and ultimately are simply not worth the effort"). So, I guess I could select discus and use temperature to limit the varieties of tetra or angelfish and limit the varieties based upon size (eliminating any under two inches). Or simply go with dwarf cichlids and have fewer, if any, limitations. Depending upon the number in each school (12-18 or various) , six or seven - hatchetfish; pencilfish; discus, angelfish or dwarf cichlids; and four different tetras based upon contrasting colors, i.e, cardinals, lemons, blue king, green fire, and/or black neon.
> Of course, I'm still waiting for evaluations of the chart, which I used to determine compatibility for my selections.
> Hope that answers your question?????


I want to note that her statement is mainly for wild caught discus. Captive bred ones are much easier to keep. Also dwarf cichlids in the amazon are almost half the size to an inch smaller than the discus cichlid. What about angels?


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## boxercrazy156 (May 7, 2012)

Termato said:


> Discus are not the easiest fish to keep. They are beautiful and absolutely my favorite Fish in the Amazon. Their colors are vibrant and they are very peaceful. I am only suggesting it to you as this would be my dream tank. I will also make a second more practical stocking recommendation for you:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I agree, My sister has a 200 gallon tank with now 5 discus 30 cardinal tetra and 8 clown loaches and 1 albino pleco she started out with 18 discus but they kep picking on the weak one untill she had 5 which she has had for quite some time its a beautiful tank she lives in the city and her water is good for discus I myself have very hard water and my parameters would not be good for Discu,s but if you can I think you would be very happy


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## lesandjill (May 25, 2012)

Once again, my focus of interest is primarily to have several schools of tetras of at least 12 or more, its not keeping discus. Which variety of tank bred discus are you familiar with? There is no way that I would consider 15 discus. I have my doubts about trying even five or six. As for angelfish, I know they are more predatory. Would five or six small angels with the four-six varieties of tetras be alright if I was to limit the size of the various tetra species to two inches or more? Again, I thought of the discus or angels as a centerpiece species to compliment my smaller tetras; but not to dominate the tank. I'm actually more interested in having my list critiqued as to why it would or would not work. Are you suggesting that I have too many fish? I've seen lists on other sites where the number of fish in a similar biotope was larger. I'm more interested in opinons on my selection of fish and why it will or will not work.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

The range for GH, pH and temp is stated in the profile info, so I'm still not following this. Sometimes it may be a specific range, example pH 6 to 7.5, whereas other times it may be something like pH < 7 which means any pH below 7, and so forth. Same applies to GH, e.g., hardness < 8 dGH means any GH below 8 dGH will work. Temp always has specific numbers.

The above is the first issue to consider. Then there are environmental factors like water flow. Most of the fish are forest fish so this is straightforward; minimal water movement from the filter will suit all species. Light will be minimal, sufficient for the plants, and floating plants will ensure the overhead brightness is restricted. And all these fish like wood, and plants for cover. So that brings us to temperament/behaviour. If you intend sedate fish like discus or angelfish [and never both together as previously noted], you must ensure that their tankmates are quiet fish and not active swimmers that can stress them out with their continual charging around the tank.

On the discus, it is true that this fish is more of a challenge. In my 20+ years I have still not taken this plunge. Primarily because I would need to alter one of my existing larger tanks to accommodate their specific temperature, and this significantly limits tankmates. My 5-foot 115g Amazon riverscape would be ideal for discus, but this tank contains my 30+ corys and they would have to go due to the high temperature. I've no where else to put them, at present; I have a Flourite substrate in the 70g flooded Amazon forest tank, and I've already had to move corys out of there due to the substrate. But that may be changing fairly soon, to playsand, which would remove one obstacle.

On temp, it is always best to stay in the mid-range of a species. The warmer the water, the higher the fish's metabolic rate will be, and several internal physiological processes are affected. And only a degree or two can make a vast difference to the fish in this respect.

Byron.


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## lesandjill (May 25, 2012)

Byron. Did you have an opportunity to look at the chart? Is the data accurate? If not, would you kindly "tweek" it? Now that I posted it, can you provide the suggestions and recommendations you were offering? I'm anxious to get your expert input on both topics.


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## Quantum (Jul 23, 2011)

> my focus of interest is primarily to have several schools of tetras of at least 12 or more



Since this is the case, I would forget either discus or angels, both would limit your choices for the reasons you mentioned.


You could always add interest and variety with small plecos like _Ancistrus_ _dolichopterus _or the common bristlenose and maybe farlowella or whiptail catfish, a single bolivian ram could be added as well.


To help narrow your choices for tetra first choose one of several similar species on your list and eliminate the others. For example: roberts, rosy, red phantom, black phantom, and to some extent bleeding hearts; another group would be cardinals, neons, and green neons, I personally wouldn't have neons due to health issues as well as their needing somewhat cooler temps. Also, keep in mind that the emperor tetras (both species) can be quite boisterous and choosing them will, to some extent limit your choice for tankmates. Same for the very active cochus.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

lesandjill said:


> Byron. Did you have an opportunity to look at the chart? Is the data accurate? If not, would you kindly "tweek" it? Now that I posted it, can you provide the suggestions and recommendations you were offering? I'm anxious to get your expert input on both topics.


I can't keep numbers for every species in my head, so I will have to check each one. But I can offer some comments on the species, below.

green tetra (Aphyocharax rathbuni) 72 - 80F 6.5 - 7.8 7 - 20
This is not a particularly good community fish as it is a fin nipper. All the species in the genus Aphyocharax are, so not good with any slow or sedate fish, which limits their use. Best on their own, or in a tank with similar feisty companions.
blue tetra (Boehlkea fredcochui) 72 - 82F 5.6 - 7.6 1 - 15 
This is another active fish, though less inclined to nip, but be careful. I had it once, got rid of it.
rummy nose tetra (Hemmigrammus bleheri) 75 - 85F 6.0 - 8.0 2 - 12
A true beauty, but must have quite soft acidic water; good with discus and the rams, not angelfish. Large group is necessary, I have 23 in my 115g. They are swimmers, but not rambunctious, remaining in the lower third of the tank, continually swimming back and forth in a fairly tight group. Very peaceful.
Glowlight Tetra (Hemmigrammus erthrozonus) 75 - 82.5 6.0 - 8.0 5 - 12
Not a problem, but not with angelfish.
Pretty Tetra (Hemmigrammus pulcher) 72 - 78 5.0 - 8.0 1 - 12
One of my favourites. As the profile says, somewhat active, but not too much for almost any community. Remains mid-water or slightly above.
blue king tetra (Impaichthys kerri) 76 - 80 5.5 - 7.0 1 - 12
A better community fish than the quite similar Emperor, as this one is less feisty. Active, but not overly-so, but not something I'd put with angelfish.
ornate tetra (Hyphessobrycon bentosi) 75 - 82 5.5 - 7.0 2 - 10
This is a real gem. Very quiet, mine (9) remain under large sword leaves, rarely swim, do not like water currents nor light. But a beauty, well suited to discus and angelfish. The naming of this species and the closely-related Rosy T is often confused so make sure it is this one, usually comonly called Robert's Tetra, as explained in the profile which also tells how to distinguish the two species as they frequently appear under the incorrect names.
Copland's tetra (Hyphessobrycon copelandi) 75 - 82 4.5 - 5.5 0 - 4 
I've never seen this species, except in articles. Appearance is very similar to the above and the Rosy, but some sources say it is more active. ??
Bleeding Heart Tetra (Hyph. erythrostigma) 72 - 77 6.0 - 6.5 4 - 8
Another near-identical to the Roberts, Rosy. Except this species gets much larger, twice the size at 3+ inches. Said to be good with angelfish, but one of our members found it nipped the angel's fins.
Black Neon Tetra (Hyph. herbertaxelrodi) 73 - 81 5.5 - 7.5 4 - 8 
Nothing bad to say here.
Black Phantom Tetra (Hyph. megalopterus) 72 - 82 6.0 - 7.5 2 - 20
Another beauty, if plain in colour, but the constant displays of the males is delightful. A good mix with the other Rosy clade tetras like Roberts, Rosy, etc. Similarly very quiet, likes staying under plants, out of the light.
Rosy Tetra (Hyphessobrycon rosaceus) 75 - 82 6.0 - 7.5 5 - 19
Another gem in the Rosy clade.
yellow phantom tetra (Hyph. rosecus) 74 - 80 5.5 - 7.5 1 - 20
This species [epithet is roseus] I have not personally come across, but it is much the same in needs and behaviours as the Rosy clade species above. Not ideal with angels or discus.
lesser Bleeding Heart Tetra (Hyph. socolofi) 72 - 77 6.0 - 7.2 1 - 10
This is the smallest of the three "Bleeding Heart" species, but otherwise much the same.
Red Phantom Tetra (Hyphessobrycon sweglesi) 68 - 77 5.5 - 7.5 4 - 20
This needs cool water; it would be lovely in a tank with neon tetra, the "Dwarf" species of cory, etc.
Cardinal Tetra (Paracheirodon axelrodi) 73 - 81 4.0 - 6.0 0 - 10
Another beauty. But very soft and very acidic. Good with discus, not angels. Nice with rummys as they share identical habitats.
red-eye Emperor Tetra (Nematobrycon lacortei) 73 - 80 5.6 - 7.2 1 - 12
I finally got hold of some of these, and they were a problem in 3 different tanks so I got rid of them. Prolific spawners, I now have 12 fry that have grown up in the tank in which I last had the parents, and so far, after several months, they are not as bothersome. However, this tank is fairly active, with Congo Tetra and Black Ruby Barb, so this may be it. In with my quieter characins they were something of a terror.
Emperor Tetra (Nematobrycon palmeri) 72 - 77 5.0 - 7.5 5 - 12 
These seem better behaved than the above, I had/have both together, but still very active and not best with sedate fish.
Neon Tetra (Paracheirodon innesi) 68 - 80 5.0 - 7.0 1 - 10
Needs cooler temps than some of what you're considering.
Green Neon Tetra (Paracheirodon simulans) 73 - 80 4.0 - 6.5 0 - 8
A very delicate fish. I have had several protozoan/pathogen issues with these beauties. They are very closely related to the cardinal, need very soft and acidic water. In one sense the lovliest of the three [available] Paracheirodon species as the "neon" line is perfectly straight and extends to the caudal peduncle unlike the other two.


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