# Mixed tropical fish not eating, acting lethargic



## steagle (Sep 7, 2011)

Hey everyone, first post here and hope to become an active member of the community. Like many other amateur aquarium owners I've run into my first serious problem and came here for help. A fish has died and others are acting sick. I've given up on my LFS providing me with the best advice. 

I have a 60 gallon tank with the following fish: 1 electric blue cichlid, 1 convict cichlid (dwarf size), 1 red tailed chalceus, 1 killi fish, 2 bala sharks, 2 german blue rams, 2 albino catfish, 1 pleco. I previously had 1 peacock cichlid who just passed away due to the condition in the tank. I have a large aerator providing lots of bubbles in the back, an Emperor dual-wheel filter, and keep the heat between 78-80 degrees. Plenty of lava rocks, [fake] plants and ornaments for hiding. No live plants. It's been established since February. Water conditions have remained relatively stable during this time, here's the most recent readings using Quick Dip 6-in-1 test strips: nitrate - 25, nitrite - .5 or .10, hardness - 150, chlorine - 0, alkalinity - can't get an accurate number from the color, but looks to be around 100, pH - same thing, hard to tell, but looks like 7.2 or 7.4 or so

It started a couple weeks ago when I noticed my Peacock Cichlid was not eating. At the suggestion of my LFS I treated the tank with Maracyn Plus as his condition seemed similar to dropsy. After the 3 Maracyn treatments, applied every other day as instructed, there was no change in his condition and he eventually passed away yesterday. Now my other fish are rubbing themselves against the substrate and rocks; could this be due to the slimy nature of the Maracyn? A friend suggested it might be Ich. As a test I turned the water temperature up to about 86 degrees and left it there for a couple days, then reduced back to 80. Behavior hasn't changed. The two bala sharks have been swimming around crazily for the last 2 days, and this morning were sitting on the bottom of the tank barely moving. When I went to test the water they swam away so there's still some life in them, but they definitely look lethargic. The convict & electric blue continue to rub against things. The 3 catfish, killi fish and german blue rams don't seem to be exhibiting any strange behavior at all. I put in another treatment of Maracyn this morning, not sure if this was a widespread case of dropsy, but that might not have been smart.

I unfortunately do not have a hospital tank or the ability (right now) to isolate fish. I will definitely invest in this when possible. For now, I am going to buy a Nitra-Zorb packet to put in my filter because I know my nitrate and nitrite are a little higher than they should be. Other than that , any suggestions?


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## steagle (Sep 7, 2011)

Wanted to add that I just got back from the fish store with some Rid-Ich, aquarium salt, and nitrate/nitrite reducer. Is it too soon to put in the nitrate/nitrite reducer considering I just added the Maracyn about an hour ago?


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

Hello and welcome to TFK, sorry that your first posts have to be because of problems that you have been having. You said that you added another dose of Maracyn, do not add the treatment for ich at this time with the other medication in the tank. Mixing medications can cause more problems, especially if they do not say that they can be used together. With ich the fish will look like they have been sprinkled with salt, are you seeing this at all? If not I would definitly hold off on using an ich medication. The flashing behavior that you are describing can be caused from several different things. Do you know what you ammonia level is? From the sounds of it you are using strip tests for checking your parameters. From my own personal expeience and from that of others these are usually inaccurate and unrealiable. I would highly recommend that you invest in a liquid test kit, which will give you more realiable results, and are a better value for your money. API master test kit is one that many of us use here, myself included. Some additional information would be helpful.

1. Size of tank?

2. Water parameters
a. Ammonia?
b. Nitrite?
c. Nitrate?
d. pH, KH and GH?
e. Test kit?

3. Temperature?

4. FW (fresh water) or BW (brackish)? 

5. How long the aquarium has been set up?

6. What fish do you have? How many are in your tank? How big are they? How long have you had them?

7. Were the fish placed under quarantine period (minus the first batch from the point wherein the tank is ready to accommodate the inhabitants)?

8. a. Any live plants? Fake plants?
b. Sand, gravel, barebottom?
c. Rocks, woods, fancy decors? Any hollow decors?

9. a. Filtration?
b. Heater?

10. a. Lighting schedule? What lights are used?
b. Any sunlight exposure? How long?

11. a. Water change schedule?
b. Volume of water changed?
c. Well water, tap water, RO water?
d. Water conditioner used?
e. Frequency of gravel/sand (if any) vacuumed?

12. Foods?
How often are they fed?

13. a. Any abnormal signs/symptoms?
b. Appearance of poop?
c. Appearance of gills?

14. a. Have you treated your fish ahead of diagnosis? 
b. What meds were used?

15. Insert photos of fish in question and full tank shot if necessary. 

Read more: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...orm-read-before-you-post-61135/#ixzz1XI08ekqX

Also if you haven't already had problems, there are some problems that will probably come up with your current stocking, the major one I see is the electric blue cichlid, which I am guessing is an electric blue jack dempsey. Jack dempsey are a very aggressive and territorial cichlid which do not do well with in community settings. More information can be found for your fish in the tropical fish profiles. The link can be found at the top of the page second tab from the left, or you can click on the shaded name like jack dempsey, or blue ram.


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## steagle (Sep 7, 2011)

Yeah I've been unhappy with the test strips, I should definitely get a better testing system in place. I'll check out the API kit you suggested. 

The electric blue is actually an ahi, I believe: http://www.aquariumlife.net/profile-images/blue-ahli-lg.jpg

Most of the stuff you listed I already put in my first post but I did miss the food, and lighting schedule. For food I feed them a mixture of blood worms, tetramin tropical flakes, tetracichlid flakes & pellets, and algae wafers for the pleco. For lighting, they typically have moderate light throughout the day from windows in the room and I turn on the hood lamp when i gets dark, let's say 7-8pm and leave it on till 11-12am, then total darkness from then till about 6am.


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## steagle (Sep 7, 2011)

BarbH said:


> With ich the fish will look like they have been sprinkled with salt, are you seeing this at all? If not I would definitly hold off on using an ich medication.


I don't see lots of white spots - I do see some bubbles attaching to the fish from the Maracyn, but no "sprinkle" of white spots. The only strange thing I can see is one of the bala's eyes is whitish gray instead of black, but it's been that way since I've had him, so I don't think it's anything related to what's going on now.



BarbH said:


> The flashing behavior that you are describing can be caused from several different things. Do you know what you ammonia level is?


Unfortunately no, I'll have to get a test kit for that. Having higher than normal nitrite usually means there is ammonia in the tank, right? 

I went to check on the fish again, and the electric blue and balas were hanging out near the surface, not moving much. Then the electric blue spazzed out and started flashing against the substrate multiple times in a row, then returned to the top of the tank. 

Some other info that might be helpful - the electric blue has only been in the tank for about a week. And the red-tailed chalceus has been in for about two weeks... I bought him when my bumblebee zebra cichlid got too aggressive towards the other fish - especially the peacock - so I traded him in. The peacock seemed to have stopped eating soon after I introduced the chalceus. I wonder if the chalceus introduced something to the water. As I mentioned before I don't have a quarantine tank so I introduce the fish by keeping them in their bags and floating them in the tank for about 20 minutes, then introduce some of the aquarium water to them, wait another 20 minutes, then release them. They have always seemed to adapt fine with this process but it definitely doesn't take into account possible diseases they may be carrying.


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## KendraMc (Jul 20, 2011)

steagle said:


> Having higher than normal nitrite usually means there is ammonia in the tank, right?


high nitrites can mean you _had_ high ammonia, since ammonia is converted into nitrites. it does not necessarily mean you do have high ammonia currently.


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## steagle (Sep 7, 2011)

Anyone else have any advice? Things are not improving after the nitrite/nitrate reduction... balas aren't eating, and continue to swim sporadically around as if trying to get out of the tank.


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## k19smith (Aug 19, 2011)

I would take a water sample to your local fish store and have them test it. I would do a 30% water change and not add anymore Maracyn as it doesn't seem to be helping. I myself would go ahead and add the aquarium salt. I would also drop your temp to 78. I myself would not use a nitrate nitrite reducer as I'm assuming this is something you pour in, I would do water changes.How often do you do water changes? I'm not sure on your stock list but I'm pretty sure you have fish that don't belong together.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Would be helpful to have answer's to question's BarbH posted above.
Best way,Fastest way, to deal with ammonia,nitrites,nitrates, and improve fishes enviornment,is to perform water change's perhaps twice weekly of 50 percent, and once weekly after level's have improved each and every week using dechlorinator such as PRIME.
Would withold foods from fish that are not eating/sick, for uneaten food will only foul the water.
Would add fresh carbon to the filter to remove any medication's and perform the water changes as described above. If water test's indicate anything other than ZERO for ammonia,ZERO for nitrite's,and NitrAtes no higher than 30ppm,, Then medication's will have little effect for stressful condition's will not allow fishes to regain their ability to fight off infection's,fungus,parasites, with or without medication's.
If using medication's ,best to remove carbon from the system before medicating and follow direction's on medication's more,,is not better.
Best not to mix medication's,Complete one dosing schedule,add fresh carbon for a day or two ,and then remove carbon before starting next round of medication.
Could be that water changes alone will bring quick improvement, and I might perform them as described above for a couple week's before proceeding with any meds but that's just me.
You have a bunch of fish that don't share same water chemistry need's, which in turn creates stress along with non zero ammonia /nitrites, which weaken's fishes immune system and this often result's in sick fish.


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## steagle (Sep 7, 2011)

Thanks guys... ok as for water changes, previously I was doing 30-40% water changes (always with dechlorinator) & vacuumed the substrate every two weeks, for a few months with no apparent issues in fish health. A few days after I noticed the peacock cichlid's behavior I did a water change and measured the water parameters. They looked fine and remained consistent from then to the next water change a week later. I just did a 50% water change two days ago after the peacock died. I'll do another tonight. 

@k19smith - funny, I added aquarium salt (about 12 teaspoons for the 60 gallons) last night as well as dropped the temp to 78 before reading your post. Unfortunately this morning there's been no change with the balas, who continue to float in a corner of the tank, occasionally swimming up and down the side or zooming the length of the tank and coming back to rest in that corner. Doesn't look good for them  I'll keep doing water changes but if I get the water parameters "perfect" and they still don't eat, what then? 

@1077 - If the root problem is the fish mixture what do you think would be some good substitutes? I assume I should be going all cichlid or cichlid mixes, or a passive community of sharks etc? I didn't set out to stock my tank this way, it just kind of happened over time as I came across interesting and laid back fish at the LFS. Like the peacock was super mellow with all the sharks and even the convict and rams. But if this kind of mixing is causing the stress then I don't want to put the fish through that much longer.


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## steagle (Sep 7, 2011)

FYI just added a few photos of the tank to my aquarium profile.


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## steagle (Sep 7, 2011)

Most of this was covered in my first post but I see you guys like your lists  So I'll put everything here for convenience's sake.

1. Size of tank? - 60 gal (4' W)

2. Water parameters
a. Ammonia? - did not test
b. Nitrite? - 20-25
c. Nitrate? - .5
d. pH, KH and GH? - 7.4, 100 alkalinity, 150 hardness
e. Test kit? - Quick Dip 6-in-1

3. Temperature? 78-80 F

4. FW (fresh water) or BW (brackish)? FW

5. How long the aquarium has been set up? 7 months

6. What fish do you have? How many are in your tank? How big are they? How long have you had them?
1x Convict Cichlid (dwarf/deformed size) - maybe 2", 4 months
1x Electric Blue Ahi - 4", 8 days
1x Pink-Tailed Chalceus - 5" - 2 weeks
2x German Blue Rams - very small - 7 months
2x Bala Sharks - one is about 5", the other 3.5" - large one 7 months, small one 4 months
2x Albino Catfish - very small - 7 months
1x Pleco - very large, probably 8 or 9" - 6 months

7. Were the fish placed under quarantine period (minus the first batch from the point wherein the tank is ready to accommodate the inhabitants)? No

8. a. Any live plants? Fake plants? Fake plants
b. Sand, gravel, barebottom? Gravel
c. Rocks, woods, fancy decors? Any hollow decors? Lava rocks, some decoration (see aquarium photos)

9. a. Filtration? Emperor dual-wheel bio filter
b. Heater? Generic tube heater attached w/ suction cups to inside of tank

10. a. Lighting schedule? What lights are used? Generic hood light - long tube bulb
b. Any sunlight exposure? How long? Indirect light from nearby windows for morning/afternoon, light turned on in evening for about 4 hours

11. a. Water change schedule? Every 2 weeks
b. Volume of water changed? 35%
c. Well water, tap water, RO water? Tap water
d. Water conditioner used? API Stress Coat
e. Frequency of gravel/sand (if any) vacuumed? With every major water change

12. Foods? Tetramin tropical flakes, tetracichlid flakes & pellets, blood worms (dried), algae wafers (pleco)
How often are they fed? Twice a day

13. a. Any abnormal signs/symptoms? Grouping in one area of the tank, bala sharks not eating or swimming much, cichlids rubbing themselves against substrate and rocks.
b. Appearance of poop? Fine
c. Appearance of gills? Fine

14. a. Have you treated your fish ahead of diagnosis? Yes with Maracyn Plus - 4 total treatments - then added nitrate/nitrite reducer (2 treatments), finally aquarium salt (1 treatment)

15. Insert photos of fish in question and full tank shot if necessary.- Tank photos are in my aquarium profile, can take close-up shots of fish later tonight.


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## tf1265 (Jul 26, 2011)

From what I can see, there are a couple issues that may be making the situation worse. 

1) I would do more frequent water changes of less volume. 20-25% weekly will likely make a bigger difference than 35% every 2 weeks. Gravel vaccuuming can be done once a month, however if your tank looks dirty it can be done more often. 

2) Adding aquarium salt wth medications can be extremely hard on your fish. Does your filter have a carbon insert? I'm unfamiliar with the type of filter you have. Carbon will filter out any chemical medications in your tank, and it's important to make sure all the medications are out before switching to a new treatment plan. 

3) If it is in fact ick, turning the heat up to 86 won't necessarily do anything in a few days. It doesn't kill the ick, it simply prevents them from being able to reproduce. As far as ick treatments go, it's either medication at regular temperature, OR aquarium salt with the heat turned up. Don't do both (not sure if you are, but when you get a lot of advice from different people quickly, sometimes you do some things from each person and make it worse). 

4) Water parameters are not normal. Nitrites, as previously posted, should be at 0. Parameters should be:

Ammonia - 0
Nitrites- 0ppm
Nitrates <40ppm

Ammonia is one of the most important and telling tests in terms of water conditions. Ammonia poison will silently but quickly kill your fish. High nitrites indicate that your ammonia levels are not balanced. 

The important things for you to do right now are do frequent water changes and keep the water clean. The med you were using doesn't appear to have done anything, so get that out of the tank through either water changes (if you change 20% of the water each time, in theory it will take at least 5 changes to get all the medication out. More to be safe) or by adding fresh activated carbon to your filter. It is OK to do small water changes daily if your fish are under stress.

Good luck!

PS - NOT all species are tolerant of aquarium salt. Your catfish will be definitively intolerant of it. Albino catfish will be extremely intolerant. Either remove them, or don't keep adding salt. Catfish are partial surface air breathers, they may be OK in a makeshift QT tank - large plastic container, etc. If you can add an airstone to the container, that will make a huge difference. Give them some hiding spots and change 100% of the water daily, and they could be fine for a week outside of the main tank (obviously watch for signs of distress, but if you must use aquarium salt they need to be removed).


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

There are a few issues that I see going on here. The first is the fish that are being kept together. The convict cichlid is from central america and is found is harder basic water. Convicts can be very territorial and can get rather nasty especially when spawning like most other cichlids. The electric blue ahli also known as blue hap comes from Lake Malawi in Africa. This is also another very territorial and aggressive fish. They need a ph of at least 8 and hard water. Blue rams need very soft acidic water if wild caught, if tank raised than they need to be kept close to within the conditions that they were raised. Bala shark will get too large for the tank that you have them in, they can reach up to 14 inches, and are a shoaling fish and need to be kept in groups of at least 5. Also the pleco that you have I am sure is probably the common pleco which also attains rather large sizes reaching up to 18 inches or more. With the mix of fish that you have right now I am sure that the fish are probably experiencing a lot of stress, even if you are not seeing aggression between the fish, there are chemical pheremones that are being released into the water that the fish will pick up on and will cause them stress.

Another issue that I see is the water change schedule. Water changes should be done on a weekly basis of 40 to 50% of the water being changed each week. This will help to remove the crud from the water that you filter is unable to remove.

The other issue is the level of your nitrites. In a cycled aquarium ammonia and nitrites should be 0, and nitrates should be 20ppm or lower, but a reading of nitrates. If your ammonia or nitrites are above .25 I would carry out water change of 40 to 50%.


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## steagle (Sep 7, 2011)

Thanks guys for the excellent advice. @tf1265 - It has two filter slots, currently both contain normal filters. I do have carbon salts that I can sprinkle in there. I did a 50% water change 3 days ago, so is it ok if I do another 50% water change tonight to remove any lingering medication? Or do a smaller water change and add some carbon? 

And you were right - I did take the advice of multiple people and added some aquarium salt before the Maracyn was completely out of the tank. I also added some nitrate/nitrite reducer (maybe 8 hours earlier) to try and get the parameters back in order. From now on, I'll make sure there is no lingering medication and will do more frequent water changes.

I think I agree with Barb that the fish diversity could be contributing to this stress. Considering this tank will soon be too small for the balas and pleco, perhaps I should return them to the LFS. I could use this opportunity to get more cichlids and optimize the water quality for them. I've got to stop taking advice from my LFS whenever I ask about fish ("Oh yes, they would get along great with the fish you have!" etc etc). Part of the problem is I didn't research some of these fish before bringing them home. 

So considering I am going to be sticking with this 60 gal tank for awhile, what would be some good tank mates for the convict & blue ahi?


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## k19smith (Aug 19, 2011)

I'm sorry I did not see the catfish when I recommended the salt. If possible I would try to get rid of your fish that do not belong and do not add anymore in till you get your water quality under control. I myself don't think the convict and blue ahi are great tank mates but I could be wrong. Once you get your water under control the 25% weekly will be great but with your issues now I would do more.


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## tf1265 (Jul 26, 2011)

Believe me, almost all of us (definitely myself included) have taken bad advice from a pet store and purchased fish that were BAD for our tanks. I've learned now to go the store and see what's available (or ask what might be coming in in the next week or so), if there is something new that I think might be a good addition to my tank I come on here, ask some questions, do a little reading, and then if all checks out I go back to the store and make my purchase. It takes more time, it can be a pain in the butt, but now I am extremely happy with my tanks and confident that the fish they contain are happy and healthy. 

It is definitely alright to do another 50% water change. As long as you are conditioning the water (and you've said you are, with api stress coat which is a good one), water changes are the single greatest component to healthy fish. Add some carbon as well, it will catch any traces of medication that might still be in there. 

The good news is that even though it took some mistakes and some casualties, you're learning a lot of lessons and the next time an issue arises in your tank you will be MUCH better equipped to handle it quickly and as stress-free on your fish as possible. 

Good luck! Once you've cleaned up the mess the pet store got you in, next step is to determine if there is still some kind of disease or fungus lingering in your tank that needs to be taken care of.


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## steagle (Sep 7, 2011)

@k19smith - That's ok. I should have been more careful yesterday - I was kind of panicking wondering what to do, and didn't take the time to filter out the Maracyn first. Lesson learned. Fortunately the catfish seem fine but I will definitely not be adding anything else until I've done a few water changes.


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## steagle (Sep 7, 2011)

@tf1265 - thanks, that makes me feel a little better. I am somewhat emotional about losing ANY pet even a tiny fish and I've been feeling kind of helpless in not knowing how to deal with it. After improving water quality further, I think I need to make the decision about what kind of fish to have in this tank and remove the ones that don't belong. 

On that note - I love my blue rams and they seem to have done great in this tank. If I did get rid of the balas and the pleco, and stocked the tank with more cichlids, do you think I could get away with keeping them? It seems cichlids are rather temperamental in what they like, water quality wise and neighbor wise - do I have to go 100% cichlid or is there an acceptable mix?


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## ladayen (Jun 21, 2011)

The one thing I can say about keeping cichlids is CAVES CAVES CAVES.... I'm currently re decorating my 75 gallon cichlid tank. I also stocked mixed fish and I'm slowly getting there now. I am finding having more caves and hiding places is stopping my cichlids aggression problems tho.


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## ladayen (Jun 21, 2011)

Also alot of the fish you have prefer to be in groups if you plan on having them you may want to look into this such as the corys you may want to add a few more as corys do best with at least 5 of one species or if you have multiple species group of 3 of a kind.


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## steagle (Sep 7, 2011)

Bad news - I just started the 50% water change, and one of the balas started swimming upside down. I took a look at him and the other bala up close and I do see white spots, mostly on their head. A few on their bodies. I don't notice it on any of the other fish. Is there anything else I can look for to confirm if this is ick or not? 

For now I am going to refill the tank and treat it with active carbon. But getting nervous - should I treat for ick or do anything else first?


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## k19smith (Aug 19, 2011)

Ich looks like salt you can google some pics or try to take some and post them here. 

I would confirm for sure you have ich before you start any treatment. 

I'm not sure what you mean by treat the tank with activated carbon.


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## steagle (Sep 7, 2011)

I just mean replacing the active carbon in my filters. 
Yes it looks like salt sprinkles. The balas continue to jerk around, just like I would if I had gnats on me. The electric blue has been frequently sitting on the bottom of the tank in a corner motionless. He's hovering now, but not swimming around like he used to. The other fish seem fine. If this is indeed ick, could it be the infection just hasn't reached them yet?

After water change I have 0 nitrites and nitrate looks to be 20ppm. pH has dropped to about 6.8. Hardness 100, Alkalinity 100. Chlorine still 0.


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## k19smith (Aug 19, 2011)

Sometimes not all your fish will get the ich. I don't know what the best cure for ich is as I haven't had it in 10 yrs, there are a lot of post on the forum I would do some reading. I myself don't use chemicals I would use salt but that is not an option with your catfish.


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## steagle (Sep 7, 2011)

I also should mention about the electric blue - he doesn't have the same vibrant, blue hue that he had when I bought him. Almost as if something is covering his scales... I don't see white sprinkles like on the balas, but his scales look kind of, I don't know, fuzzy in places. This mixed with his behavior, I know something is wrong with him too. 

Well I can't treat for ick right now anyways because I have to let the carbon filter out whatever was in the old water, but I do think I need to take action soon.


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

If you can post pictures of what the fish look like right now, that may help in trying to figure out what may be going on with the fish. The fuzzy spots sounds more like body fungus to me. But pictures will definitly help in trying to figure out what may be going on. Definitly keeping the water as clean as possible will help.


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## steagle (Sep 7, 2011)

Here's the smaller bala who seems to have more spots.


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## ladayen (Jun 21, 2011)

eww.. that almost looks more like velvet to me.


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## steagle (Sep 7, 2011)

it definitely looks more pronounced in that low quality photo - but he does have the spots all over and on his fins. his gills are also getting red.


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## steagle (Sep 7, 2011)

He keeps losing buoyancy and going upside down  And I just found the larger bala, nose down against the substrate in the other corner  Should I take them out of the tank and put them in a large bowl or something and try ich treatment??


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

I am thinking that it looks like it could be ich, will let someone else who has experience this confirm. If it is ich you will want to treat the entire tank. Slowly raising the tank temp to 86 degrees will help with ich. At this temp ich is unable to reproduce and it speeds up the life cycle of the disease. If you do decide to treat with medication you will want to make sure that what you use will be safe with the catfish. Catfish and other scaleless fish can be sensitive to different medications, and salt.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Looks like ICH to me.I would were it me,(and it ain't) treat with Quick Cure, found at walmart or fish store at half dose. For your tank,,that would be thirty drops each day for three days, and then perform 60 to 70 percent water change. Would see that carbon cartridges are removed for this treatment, and temp around 82 to 84 degrees F.(light's off)
After three day's of treatment, followed by the water change, I would observe the fish for a couple days, and if ICH is still present, or flashing ,rubbing is still taking place, I would repeat the treatment at half dose (30 drops) for another three days, followed by another 60 to 70 percent wwater change.
Would vaccum one half the substrate once a week at water change time, and the other half at next water change. This will help remove any cyst's from ICH parasite that may be on substrate.
Quick cure is Formalin,Malachite green, and will turn the water blue but it will dissipate with time/water changes. It is best med I have used for ICH and also helpful for mild fungus.
At the end of treatment ,, I would use new carbon cartridge (not one that has been exposed to ICH) to remove medication and then resume with WEEKLY maint, water changes ,gravel vaccuming).
I fear your tank will not be suited for African cichlids who need much harder ,alkaline water and instead, I would look to fishes that enjoy moderately hard, to acidic water that your tank will become over time with ph,hardness levels you posted.
Would steer clear of pH up or down product's for they can cause wildly fluctuating pH which fishes will find stressful, and would as mentioned,,,select fishes that will happily accept the water you have readily available from the tap . 
If tapwater is being treated with domestic water softener system, I would look and see if water from outside spigot (garden hose) is hooked up to the softener system. If not,then this is water I would use in tank which you could heat,and treat with dechlorinator before using.
Domestic water softener system's often remove mineral salt's (magnesium,calcium,) that fish need, and that also help buffer the water to prevent pH swings, and they replace these salt's with sodium chloride salt which most fishes find uncomfortable depending on species with prolonged use.
I only mention this due to drop in ph you reported above somewhere, which did not sound right to me .
Might test the ph of a bucket of tapwater after it has set for 12 hours and see if the ph is not closer to that which you report in earlier post's. this method would allow any CO2 from tap to off gas and perhaps the ph number would be more in line with that in the tank assuming regular weekly water change of 50 percent takes place.
Cichlids I might consider for this tank, Keyhole cichlids, Rams you have,Multispinosa (Rainbow cichlid),Nannacara,along with larger group of corydoras and perhaps a group of the many tetra species to act as dither fishes to help make the Cichlid's a bit less skittish.All of the above is only what I... might consider.Hope some of this helps.


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## steagle (Sep 7, 2011)

Velvet sounds just like what is going on with the electric blue, after reading this: Fish Disease - Velvet - He started rubbing, now is lethargic. 

The balas sound/look more like ich: jerking/swimming rapidly, then hanging out in the corner near the surface, labored breathing, no appetite, fins held close to body, and now, loss of balance. I'm worried if I leave them over night without any treatment they will be dead in the morning. 

Any last suggestions for the night? I want to do something, but don't want the jeapordize the rest of the fish with the wrong treatment.

Edit: thanks for the feedback 1077. What is the risk of using the medication I have (Rid-Ich) with my ablino catfish and pleco? Do I risk their health to save the balas? The pleco is a big boy, I've got nowhere to move him temporarily while I treat the rest of the tank. That would be a dilemma if I have to move them out. And is there any other risk to using ich medication on fish who are not infected?


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## k19smith (Aug 19, 2011)

Rubbing and lethargic are also ich signs. 1077 has great advise. If it is ich you will have to treat the entire tank because if a fish doesn't have ich today they may have it tomorrow it will also be present in the tank.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

steagle said:


> Velvet sounds just like what is going on with the electric blue, after reading this: Fish Disease - Velvet - He started rubbing, now is lethargic.
> 
> The balas sound/look more like ich: jerking/swimming rapidly, then hanging out in the corner near the surface, labored breathing, no appetite, fins held close to body, and now, loss of balance. I'm worried if I leave them over night without any treatment they will be dead in the morning.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, I have zero expierience with Rid ICH, Can only offer proper treatment with med I mentioned which I have used with catfish and plecos present.(half dose).


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## steagle (Sep 7, 2011)

Fair enough, thanks 1077. I'm taking the carbon out of my filters and preparing to dose the tank with Rid-Ich. It's all I can do at this point - I have to give it a shot.


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## k19smith (Aug 19, 2011)

Is this what you have? This one says safe catfish. 

Kordon LLC - Kordon - Rid Ich


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

steagle said:


> Fair enough, thanks 1077. I'm taking the carbon out of my filters and preparing to dose the tank with Rid-Ich. It's all I can do at this point - I have to give it a shot.


I understand, I might still use the med chosen at half dose, and do be sure to toss the carbon cartridge you take out away.
Would be shame, to clear the tank of ICH only to re-introduce it with cartridges that may have parasites present in or on them.
Though most parasites can't survive more than a day or two without fishes to feed from,i would not risk the chance by using old cartridge even if it were but a few days old.


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## steagle (Sep 7, 2011)

Yes was just reading that page too - hope that's the case! 
Last question - I have a dual filter that comes with the carbon cartridges, as well as blue filters with charcoal on one side. Should I turn off the whole filter system, or can I leave the filter pads in and just take out the carbon cartridges?


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

Just take out the carbon pads and let the filter continue to run. The carbon is what will take the medication out of the water.


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## steagle (Sep 7, 2011)

BarbH said:


> Just take out the carbon pads and let the filter continue to run. The carbon is what will take the medication out of the water.


Well there are the carbon cartridges (gray boxes), and then filter pads with charcoal that go in front of them. Will the charcoal in these pads be detrimental to the treatment? (Dumb question, but isn't charcoal essentially carbon?) I don't have any pads without charcoal on one side.


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## BarbH (May 23, 2011)

Yes the charcoal probably would not be good, is there a way that you could remove the charcoal from the pad? I know that when I had HOB filters running that the carbon was inside the cartridge, and you could cut the plastic on the one side to empty the carbon out.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

My apologie's I got side tracked here at work, in an effort to corral a Bat that was loose in the building:shock:.
You do not want any charcoal,or carbon in the filter while using medication's but can leave the filter running to provide circulation/oxygen exchange.
Might lower the water level in the aquarium by a couple inches to allow filter to create waterfall effect at surface and help with oxygen exchange.


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## steagle (Sep 7, 2011)

No apologies needed! Thank you for your thoughtful advice. I've treated the tank and turned on the filter (without the filter pads or cartridges) and fed the fish a little bit - everyone has a good appetite except the balas, but they are obviously in the worst condition so I'm not surprised. I'm a bit tired, so I'll see how things look in the morning.

Thanks to everyone who has been giving me feedback in this thread - it is hugely appreciated, can't thank you enough.


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## steagle (Sep 7, 2011)

After two treatments, the balas look significantly better... they are still not eating, but at least they're not showing the same behavior. The electric blue has actually become more aggressive during this time and is nipping at the chalceus and balas, and chasing the rams... once the tank is healed, I'm taking him back to the LFS pronto to restore some peace and order in tank. 

Also going to start researching which fish would like my water - I want to make a tank that doesn't require this much worry and maintenance in the future.


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## tf1265 (Jul 26, 2011)

There are 2 types of Kordon Rid Ich. Kordon Rid Ick is a natural product that IS safe for catfish (it's the malachite green, i believe, that is dangerous for them). Your bottle will tell you which one it is. Kordon Rid Ick + (this is the one that I have, because I wasn't aware of the different kinds when I bought it) is NOT safe for catfish at full dose. 

I have used rid ick+ with my cories at HALF DOSE with no adverse affects. I've had far more adverse affects trying to use salt. I believe the recommended dose is 1tsp per 10 gallons of water, so half dose would be 1/2 tsp per 10 gallons of water. The directions are pretty clear, so read through them. It even notes that the carbon should be removed from the filter. 

If I were you, I would remove the catfish and put them in a large bowl for several days to treat IF you have rid ick+. That way you can give them a half dose, and treat the rest of the tank with a full dose. If you do this, you will have to be diligent about the bowl or container you put them in. Change 100% of the water everyday, remembering to replace the medication you've removed each day. If you can add an airstone, the water quality will be better for them. Add some gravel and hiding places for them, even if you have to pull it out of the main tank to try to make it the least stressful on the fish as possible. They will be OK for a few days in a makeshift tank, and that way you will be able to treat the rest of the fish as effectively as possible.


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## steagle (Sep 7, 2011)

I just checked the bottle and it is indeed Rich-Ich +. Great, I've already done two normal doses in the tank. 
Edit: Fortunately just found something that would work perfectly as a quarantine tank. Going to get it ready for the pleco & catfish. When I do the 100% water changes, should I put them back in the main tank temporarily?


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

I would leave fish where they are and use meds at half dose when treating tank's with fishes such as tetra's catfish, plecos.I see no benefit in treating two seperate tanks if all fishes have been exposed to ICH which is probable.
Half dose will work ,just takes a bit longer and is a bit easier on the fish.IMHO


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## steagle (Sep 7, 2011)

Quick update: after 5 days of ick treatment, the balas are doing much better and finally eating again. I feel pretty proud saving them from near death, with the help of you fine people too of course. I've kept temps between 82-85 as much as possible. The catfish haven't displayed any aversion to the Rid Ich+ though the pleco has been camping out by the filter most of this time. He isn't eating his usual amount but I'm sure once I stop treatment and get everything back the way he was he'll return to normal. 

Powerful stuff that Rid Ich... I spilled some one night and it permanently stained the paint on my wall. Need to bust out the paintbrush this weekend :roll:


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## k19smith (Aug 19, 2011)

Glad to hear, that's awesome you haven't had any deaths.


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## tf1265 (Jul 26, 2011)

Great to hear! I've stained a loooooot of stuff with the rid ick+. I have a special set of measuring spoons now just for medicating my fish because I'll NEVER get the blue out and I'm fairly sure I'll poison myself with them. 

Stress and ich can present themselves in odd ways. What a lot of people don't realize is that by the time there are white spots on your fish, the ick has been in their systems for a while - the spots are a late stage in the life cycle, not the first sign. Congratulations on diligently observing and caring for your fish, you should be proud of yourself for bringing them back from that state. Many people would've let them die or tried 1 thing and if it didn't work, resigned the fish to dying.


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## steagle (Sep 7, 2011)

Thanks. I believe that as a pet owner, whether they're big or small, it's your responsibility to care for them. I know fish owners who have opted to let their fish die to save money and just buy new fish later. To me that's akin to cruel and unusual punishment and is a sign of a careless and selfish owner. Fish may not be the brightest bulbs in the shed, but they deserve a good life, especially when they're held captive in a tank many times smaller than their natural environment. 

Already looking forward to starting a second tank of more colorful & aggressive fish, now that I've realized how to stock a community tank. Going to start another thread on that soon


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## tf1265 (Jul 26, 2011)

As Albert Einstein said - "Everyone is a genuis. But if you judge a fish based on it's ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life thinking that it's stupid." 

So maybe they are the brightest bulbs, and they sit in their tanks wondering why we have so much trouble figuring out how to take care of them.


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