# HELP! fish dropping like flies



## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

stats: 
brand new 20 gallon high - (aqueon kit with power filter, 100 watt heater, fluorescent light which I keep on about 12 hours a day) a 6" airstone, 20 lb. generic black gravel, some rocks and fake plants 

set tank all up with conditioned water - filter/heater/bubbles running about May 22, - and on May 28th added 3 small spotted corys to get the ball rolling (if I knew I could have done that without fish I totally would have!!) 

temp hovers around 78-80º 

daily testing with API master kit is consistently: 

AMMONIA = .25 - .50 
NITRITE = zero 
(just for S&G I check nitrates once a week or so and of course it's always zero) 
PH = a whopping 7.8!

I do 25% water changes with bottled spring water as often as possible at the moment (about every other day) 

about two weeks ago I put my male betta in with the corys because I recently had a monkey wrench thrown into my life that was making the every other day bowl cleanings he required impossible - I figured he'd do better in the aquarium as his bowl was certainly LESS ideal (he was getting dull looking and fins were fizzling away from all the ammonia =( ) 

within a couple days the betta was looking MUCH better - got some pep back, was eating like normal, color started getting vibrant again, fins looked to be coming back 

BUT around the same time one of the corys started looking unwell - within a day or so he was dead 

removed him from the tank ASAP - but I was terribly sick so he may have been dead in there for like 12 hours before I managed to get him out - did a 25% water change at the time of his removal 

then 2 days later even though he WAS looking so much better for about a week, suddenly the betta started acting as the cory had before he died... then the betta died as well 

I noticed he was dead around 10pm so in there dead overnight (about 9 hours) before I was able to remove him - but when I did I did another 25% water change 

now I'm down to 2 corys... and one of them is looking a little off since last night 

when I say "off" they don't LOOK to have anything on them or be discolored or anything like that - they're just kinda lazing about, hanging out on their side, hiding behind a rock or plant, ocassionally moving from one spot to another until they finally die 

I'd REALLY like to not lose ALL of these fish - I'm wondering if there is anything I can do to keep at least the well looking one from dropping like the others 

also if they all do end up dead how do I go on from there in my continuing effort to get this thing to cycle (I've had it set up WITH fish for 4 weeks now and it's getting nowhere) 

it's been years since I've done this but I don't recall EVER having issues like this!! 

thanks in advance for any help or advice you guys can give me =)


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

I can't help you other then to offer encouragement. I am going through the same thing. I too am trying to cycle my tank with fish (didn't know there was another option) So far my fish are not dying but I am not getting anywhere with Nitrite either. I am over 5 weeks in and my Ammonia keeps spiking so I do partial water change to save the fish but never have an elevated Nitrite level. 

If my fish do die, I won't be adding any more until after the tank is 100% cycled and I have had good readings for a few weeks. I wish fish stores would not tell people they need the fish to cycle the tank.


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

Inga ~ haaa yeah so much for the relaxing hobby of fish keeping :/ 
I had one other aquarium about 8 years ago and did oodles of reading beforehand - none of which mentioned anything other than to let the tank sit running but fishless for a week before adding fish 
so that is what I did... then after a week I added 1 small pleco 1 cory and 2 angel fish - and I never had a single problem - I didn't even own a test kit so I never tested the water - I did monthly 50% water changes and that was it!! 
after about a month I added 2 swordtails - one of which died within a few days - the other was fine 

I only started having problems with that tank about a year in when I had to move into a house with mold issues which somehow crept into my filter  
I got rid of that entire setup and waited until my situation was better to start this new setup 
I started out just like I started my old tank only AFTER I got the 3 corys I started doing some research online to refresh my memory and learned there is A LOT more info out there now than there was 8 or so years ago 
but I'm afraid ignorance may have been the key with my previous setup 
it seems the more I learn the more trouble I seem to be having with this one 

I'm with you though... if all of these fish die on me I will be trying to continue the cycle without fish 
being that there is already ammonia in there I assume I only need to continue feeding to keep that going and hopefully start over with new fish within the next month 

I love my fishies and all this dying is making me sad and guilty feeling for not being smarter about this in the first place - although I was just doing what I had been told in the past 

I guess my previous tank was filled with lucky water or something haaa 

anyway - I'm not noticing any change in ammonia - I mean obviously it was zero in the beginning - but since then it's been hovering between .25 and .50 
I guess I need to be doing larger or more frequent water changes (currently doing about 25% every other day) 
I've been doing it with gallon jugs of water - this weekend I'm going to get a hose and hopefully that will make more frequent and larger water changes more doable 

but I'm afraid all my fish will be gone by then


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

Yup, I am really in the same boat. My experience with fish from years ago was a 55 gallon tank that my, then, room mate set up. She set the tank up, let it run for a day or two, got a handful of Banded Convicts and a handful of Bala Sharks, a Pleco and tossed them all in. I don't think any of those fish died. I know for awhile she was doing partial water changes but she soon lost interest and didn't do much after that. I bought food and fed them each day. The convicts started reproducing like it was going out of style, the Pleco grew to over a foot long, all seemed well. 

We moved out because I was buying a house and she was not coming with me. I don't know how it ended for those poor fish though. 

I guess we had lucky water for a few years as well. This time, I bought the tank, set it up, let it run for a week as recommended. Then while I was at the fish store checking out my options and purchasing more decor, I was told I needed a few hardy fish to cycle the tank. I listened and bought 3 Tiger Barbs as was recommended. Now I am thinking they were just trying to get rid of the Tiger barbs. lol

I have heard it can take anywhere from 6-8 weeks. I am at almost 6 weeks. I guess I just thought that I would have noted some changes in the Nitrite by now. I am a little frustrated because I really am trying to do everything right. I feel like I have gotten so much bad advice, it makes me wonder how people manage to be successful with fish. There must be a lot of lucky water out there. 

I was thinking of buying a Sponge filter today with a small air pump. I think that way even when I change my filters in the back filter, the biological stuff will stay in the tank. Lord knows once I finally get through this, I don't want to start all over when I do a filter change.


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

oh poor fishies!! I've seen lots of aquariums that seem neglected - sheesh once they're established these things are pretty easy to maintain - I don't understand why people just let them go... those ARE living creatures in there!! 
but I was just thinking about the filter situation too - the filter on this thing looks filthy - but I don't dare change it!! 
I remember changing out the filter cartridge on my old tank once a month when I did those 50% water changes 
but with all the reading I'm doing it seems to me that changing that filter cartridge will just take the thing a giant leap backward 
the more thought I put into this the more stupid I feel 
perhaps these things are better left to scientists haaa


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

brandelion said:


> but with all the reading I'm doing it seems to me that changing that filter cartridge will just take the thing a giant leap backward
> the more thought I put into this the more stupid I feel
> perhaps these things are better left to scientists haaa


I hear you. It doesn't help when people who are "in the know" are snotty with their answers either. I doubt anyone is born with the knowledge of how to properly set up and maintain a fish tank. lol

The more I think about it, the more I think a sponge is the way to go. I noticed in the fish store here that I felt was the most knowledgeable and had the healthiest looking tanks, they had sponge filters. The guy was very nice and didn't try to sell me anything but talked to me about the benefits of having them in the tank. I think he has managed a soft sell, as I really want to get one for my fish now.

I think it is a good idea to frequent these stores and just ask questions and listen to them answer questions that others have as well. Not to mention that looking at all of their tanks, gives you ideas.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

In smaller tanks (say under 50 gallons) sponge filters work very well, I always suggest them.

Brandelion, I am sorry you're having such trouble. Reading through your thread, I suspect the fish are suffering from ammonia poisoning. Ammonia at .5 even with alternate day water changes of 25% is still high and will take its toll in time. And particularly on Corydoras that are one of the most sensitive fish when it comes to water quality. And the "symptoms" you describe--lethargy, rolling over--are indicative of water issues, most likely ammonia.

What water conditioner are you using?

Have you tested your tap water for ammonia?

The tank is pH 7.8 you said, what is the pH of your tap water (I'm assuming tap water is your source water)?

Byron.


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## Calmwaters (Sep 2, 2009)

Just wanted to say I agree with Byron sounds like you have ammonia problems. I would listen and do what ever Byron says because he is very smart and has helped me alot.


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## TexasTanker (May 5, 2010)

I agree with byron, however I'm wondering why you're using bottled spring water?


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

Byron ~ to answer your questions the ph on my tap is 8! which is one of the reasons I've been using bottled spring water - the spring water has slightly lower ph of 7.8 

the tank WAS at 8 until a couple water changes using the bottled water 

BUT I can't continue to dump 5 gallons of store bought water in there every day or every other day so I'm going to switch back to tap water - the spring water didn't make that much difference anyway 

your other question is the other reason I've been using spring water... I was told by (who I'm learning to be an unreliable source) the chick at the store that I wouldn't need conditioner if I used bottled spring water 

this made sense to me as I distinctly recall with my last aquarium that I didn't use conditioner... I just filled gallon jugs and let them sit for a week or more before adding them to the tank (and that water was so heavily chlorinated it burned my eyes in the shower (my current water is unchlorinated well water) 

my NEW plan - since I'm down to ONE cory now is to take water straight from my tap (so's to best match temp) and use conditioner --- do you have a suggestion as far as what conditioner would be best? 

as for why the other fish died - I would have immediately assumed it was the ammonia if it wasn't for the betta -- sadly I was also misinformed about proper betta care (over the years I've had 4 different bettas... one that I had for close to 4 years) and was never told I should be checking their ammonia levels or changing their water practically every other day and when I learned this (through trying to figure out what was wrong with one of them... turned out to be a fungal infection, which I nursed back to health) I started testing their water and the ammonia was at 4.0!!!! - none of them acted strange in any way - except for the one that wound up with that fungal infection - they ate, swam, blew bubble nests, flared if they saw their reflection (or sometimes mine) 

of course once I learned that they needed more attention I gave them more attention!! 

but because I have had some issues with time (and sickness) lately - this betta was being a little neglected... he started getting dull looking and his fins started fizzling - because of the ammonia... which had gotten up to 4 again - so I put him in the tank with the corys and after a couple days he perked up, started getting color back and was acting more betta-y than I had ever seen him act 

then a week or so later is when the first cory started with the lazy, side flopping, no eating thing and died... and a couple days after that WHAMO - the betta starts doing the same thing 

since he never did any of that from even worse water conditions in his bowl I figured it must be something else - which is why I thought I'd ask in here to see if maybe it could be something else 

as for the corys being sensitive... the whole reason I got them was because I was told they didn't even require filtration!! I was originally looking for something to put in an unfiltered 10 gallon with the betta and that was one of the suggestions :/ 

apparently I was misinformed AGAIN!! 

what I don't understand is why the last time I set up an aquarium, I did NONE of this (just set it up, let it sit running for a week and then added fish... a cory, a pleco and 2 angel fish) and had ZERO casualties!! but like I said befire... must have had a tank full of lucky water or something hehehe 

anyway... Calmwaters & TexasTanker~ thanks =) I'm listening hehehe 
and see above for why I've been using spring water


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

OK, let's see what we can do to help. First thing, it is quite common to have issues vastly different from tank to tank. What may have "worked" once may not work a second time due to varying water parameters, different fish (Some fish are "hardier" than others, or physiologically they function differently), substrate, if there are plants or not, etc...so don't let that bother you. But there are some guidelines to ensure success.

An aquarium is an unique closed system. The fish depend upon the water for life as we depend upon air; but our air is (for purposes of this discussion) limitless--even in our homes, there is "fresh" air constantly coming in, unless you manage to have a completely sealed room. This is quite the opposite in the aquarium; the water is finite, and the fish cannot escape from that water no matter what may occur chemically to the water's physical properties. In nature, the fish can move elsewhere in the stream or lake if the temperature falls or rises, of something toxic enters the water; not in the aquarium, where the ration of fish to water is vastly higher than it would ever be in most natural systems. This is important to understand for all aquarists, because when we cause a change to the water it can have drastic consequences. And changes to the water usually affect the physiology of the fish. As one small example, when the pH of the water changes, the fish must change the pH of its blood to match, because water is constantly passing through the cells of the fish--we call this osmosis--and the fish has to regulate its pH. Same with temperature, and so on. This is why sudden fluctuations in these things can be dire for the fish.

I suggest using your tap water for the reason you give; a pH difference of .2 is not worth the fuss. And use a good conditioner [more on which below]. A comment on no conditioner with bottled water--that may or may not be sensible, depending upon what is in the bottled water. I won't get into all that as you're going with tap now. And as for the chlorine previously, yes, that works but only with chlorine. Chlorine forms a gas and it dissipates out of water. Letting water sit for 24 hours will cause most if not all of the chlorine to dissipate out. Vigorously agitating the water will dissipate the chlorine quickly, which is why some water boards have stations along long water routes to add more chlorine--the chlorine added at source dissipates out as the water travels through the pipes.

But nowadays there is usually more in tap water than just chlorine. Many places use chloramine, which will not dissipate out like chlorine, but instead is connected with ammonia. I am not a chemist and can't fully explain the scientific connection, but the only way to remove chloramine is with chemicals such as in a good water conditioner made for the aquarium.

Tap water may also contain ammonia, in some areas it is very high. Nitrite may be present, and/or nitrate. It is good to test the source (tap) water for all these before first using the water, just so you know the water properties and what has to be done (if anything) to handle it. I would never consider using tap water without a conditioner; even if it is OK today, there is nothing to stop the water supplier from adding something to combat bacteria or whatever, and you may not always know in advance. I speak from experience.

Ammonia at 4 is going to have a negative effect on the fish. They may live through it, but internal damage can occur which may manifest itself weeks or months later. This goes back to what I said at the start; the fish is trapped in the aquarium and anything in or added to the water is going to have some impact. If you had a molly and a platy in an aquarium and the ammonia rises, the molly will almost certainly die within days, but the platy may survive. Mollies are highly sensitive to ammonia, which is why those who add them to new tanks frequently have them die. We tend to label fish like the platy in this example "hardier" but that only goes so far.

Corydoras: I have maintained dozens of species over 20+ years, and I can assure you that they are very sensitive to water parameters and water conditions. They do not tolerate medications or salt. In my view salt should absolutely never be used with corys in the tank, and medications must be very carefully selected. I can honestly say that the fish with which I have had the most problems with respect to disease and health issues have been the corys. They are usually the first to get something, the first to die from it, and the first to show stress and even die from medications. Most of the catfish are like this too.

You asked about conditioners: Most handle chlorine, and now most handle chloramine. So this is basic. Depending upon what you have in your source water, one of these may be sufficient. However, many (but not all) will also detoxify heavy metals, and this includes iron, copper, zinc, manganese, nickel...and any or all of these may be present. Usually in "trace amounts" because these minerals are toxic to humans too, so water boards will monitor and treat their water accordingly. But the level of copper for instance that is accepted for humans--1.3 ppm is considered "OK" for humans--is quite a bit higher than what a fish can tolerate--copper above .002 ppm can kill fish. So metals in the tap water may be higher than fish will tolerate. A conditioner that handles heavy metals is advisable, and most will.

Beyond that, I don't worry because I have heavily-planted aquaria and thus ammonia, nitrite and nitrate is not going to be a problem and I know none of these are in my tap water. But without plants, any of these can be problematical. A conditioner that detoxifies ammonia is a good idea, and several include this property. One that also detoxifies nitrite and nitrate is probably good in new aquaria without plants, and to my knowledge the only one that does all this is Prime made by Seachem. Some aquarists use it regularly; I wouldn't because I don't want all that "detoxifying" in my planted tanks. Given that you are starting a new tank and thus will have ammonia and nitrite issues, Prime is a good choice at least until the tank is cycled. Or if these forms of nitrogen occur in your tap water.

Nitrate is less harmful and most advise keeping it below 20 ppm, and a regular weekly water change of 40-50% will normally achieve this--unless nitrate is in the tap water.

This is getting lengthy, so I'll stop. IF you have further questions, don't hesitate.

Byron.


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

_"there is nothing to stop the water supplier from adding something to combat bacteria or whatever, and you may not always know in advance." _

I have well water NOT municipal water - so nobody is adding anything to it... although it is VERY hard - we're always having issues with calcium and lime build up which is another reason I was using bottled water... trying to avoid getting hard water 'crust' in the filter and whatnot 

but I obviously can't afford to use 5-10 gallons of bottled water every day or every other day during this cycling process - so I'm using tap water now and I went this weekend and got a bottle of Prime 

so far so good with my one last cory *knock on wood* 

oh and the ammonia is not at 4 in this tank (it's usually at .5) 
it was at 4 in the betta bowl which is why I put the betta in this tank - I just assumed it would be better off in there with MUCH less ammonia - and he was doing much better until he up and died :/

I do have a couple questions though: 

1. if this fish doesn't make it, how do I continue with the cycling process without having to start from scratch (or am I basically nowheresville at this point anyway with zero nitrites/nitrates?) 

2. I assume at some point I will have to change the filter cartridge on this thing... won't THAT send me back to square one? 

thanks so much for all your help  

oh sorry - one more question: 
I noticed a suggestion of a sponge filter... if I'm thinking of the right thing, that is run on an air pump? 
the air pump I have is just 10 gallon as it's just being used for an airstone which was originally bought for a 10 gallon tank... will that work if I'm using the sponge as a secondary filter or would I have to get another air pump? 
I'm pretty well tapped out at this point - I've already gone WAY over budget and I don't even have fish yet :/


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

As long as there is a source of ammonia--from even one fish--the nitrification bacteria will appear in numbers sufficient to handle the amount of ammonia (and then nitrite). If the ammonia goes, then the bacteria will die, in a matter of several hours. You would then be basically at square 1, yes.

As for the filter cartridge, it may need rinsing (if it is dirty and begins to clog it becomes ineffective) but replacement of filter media is something I only do when it literally falls apart and won't function. Rinse filter media (cartridges) in tank water to remove the debris but not kill the bacteria--though your well water having no chlorine (if I read that correctly) wouldn't matter, but why risk something else, use tank water from a water change.

I would use a good conditioner with well water unless you know it contains no heavy metals (iron, copper, zinc, manganese...), and obviously one that detoxifies metals (not all do).

The well water has a pH of 8, and you said it is hard--any idea of the degree of hardness? Betta and corys are soft water fish, and while they have some adaptability the water may be too hard for them; calcium causes kidney blockages and other issues. Are these your first fish with this well water, or have others lasted over fairly long periods?


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

come to think of it I always used bottled water with my bettas (until this one went into the 20 gallon) although that was probably a good 50% bottled water too :/ 

other than bettas I haven't had any other fish at this house (with this water) 

the filter cartridge is looking pretty dingy - if I recall in the past on my old aquarium I changed the cartridge out once a month! so what you're saying is that unless the thing is falling apart I should just swish it around in a bucket of water I removed from the tank during a water change? 

what happens when it is falling apart and I finally do have to put a new one in? 

how would I go about finding out what other minerals would be in my well water? I have absolutely no idea what may be lurking in there - all I know about for sure is calcium and lime because it screws up my plumbing :/ 
I don't drink the water myself - I cook with it but for drinking I'm strictly bottled water


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

brandelion said:


> come to think of it I always used bottled water with my bettas (until this one went into the 20 gallon) although that was probably a good 50% bottled water too :/
> 
> other than bettas I haven't had any other fish at this house (with this water)
> 
> ...


Filter: don't know what type, but if by cartridge you mean some sort of "pad" then it will work until it falls apart. The water has to flow through the filter media, otherwise it is not doing its job. If the water can force itself around the media, the media is either clogged or worn out. Carbon and other substances in cartridges will give out quickly, depending upon the aquarium (fish load, water, etc). But some of this stuff isn't necessary anyway. We may have more (I or others) when we know the type of filter.

Re your water, you can have it tested by the fish store for hardness, but probably not much else (unless they are quite good). A lab could test for iron and metals. Public water supplies are naturally monitored for these things, so out of our tap with municipal water we are usually safe--touch wood.

I would be concerned over your hardness, and certainly get that tested. Ask them to do GH and KH if they will, and definitely get the numbers, not some vague "fairly hard." Hardness has an impact on pH adjustment in addition to being critical for some fish. Now that I know you've never had fish in this water previously, I am more inclined to think the hardness may be very high, and neither betta nor corys are going to like that. But let's get the numbers.


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

the filter I'm using is the one that came with the kit (an aqueon quiet-flow power filter) it has a white rectangular pad-like cartridge that slides into it 

I saw that somewhere along the way you (I think) suggested a sponge filter... if I'm thinking of the right thing, that is run on an air pump? 
the air pump I have is just 10 gallon as it's just being used for an airstone which was originally bought for a 10 gallon tank (THIS tank is 20) will the 10 gallon pump work if I got a sponge as a secondary filter or would I have to get another air pump? 

as soon as I get a chance I'll take some water to the fish store and ask for those tests - if the water is hard, is there anything I can do about that or would I just have to choose fish that would be ok with the hard water?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

brandelion said:


> the filter I'm using is the one that came with the kit (an aqueon quiet-flow power filter) it has a white rectangular pad-like cartridge that slides into it
> 
> I saw that somewhere along the way you (I think) suggested a sponge filter... if I'm thinking of the right thing, that is run on an air pump?
> the air pump I have is just 10 gallon as it's just being used for an airstone which was originally bought for a 10 gallon tank (THIS tank is 20) will the 10 gallon pump work if I got a sponge as a secondary filter or would I have to get another air pump?
> ...


OK, just rinse that filter pad out maybe weekly when you do the partial water change, in tank water to avoid killing the bacteria.

I like sponge filters, they create minimal water movement and do a good job of keeping the water clear by removing suspended particulate matter. In planted tanks under 50g they are the best filters in my opinion. A small sponge filter would do the job, and the air pump should handle it.

Before going into lengthy details on water softening, let's get the numbers. There are natural processes that help, depending upon the hardness.


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

awesome  thanks so much for all your advice!! 
I won't get to get the water tested for hardness until the weekend (I live 30 minutes from the nearest pet store) but when I find out, I'll come back and let you know 
one more question - eventually at some point it will have taken all the rinsing it can handle and the cartridge in my current filter will need to be replaced - how do I do that without losing all the bacteria??


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

brandelion said:


> awesome  thanks so much for all your advice!!
> I won't get to get the water tested for hardness until the weekend (I live 30 minutes from the nearest pet store) but when I find out, I'll come back and let you know
> one more question - eventually at some point it will have taken all the rinsing it can handle and the cartridge in my current filter will need to be replaced - how do I do that without losing all the bacteria??


When it is no longer working, you replace it and obviously the bacteria are gone. But by the time that occurs the tank will not be "new" but established, and in established tanks there is normally far more bacteria on the plant leaves, gravel grains, decor, tank walls, filter tubes, etc. than in the filter media. Bacteria colonize all surfaces covered by water and provided they can obtain oxygen from the water and ammonia (or nitrite) is available, they will live there.

The pad will be useless when the time comes that water can get around it. They sometimes shrink in area as they are rinsed repeatedly, or they develop "holes" etc. At that stage chuck it.


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

cool - that's what I figured  just wanted to be sure before I go ahead and screw something up hehehe 
now if I could just get this cycle moving - fingers crossed this last fish survives!!  
if not - will I just be able to continue putting food in in order the keep the ammonia up or is there something else I'll need to do if I find myself fishless to keep from having to start from scratch?? 
sorry I'm so full of questions - just trying not to screw up any more than I already have :/


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

brandelion said:


> cool - that's what I figured  just wanted to be sure before I go ahead and screw something up hehehe
> now if I could just get this cycle moving - fingers crossed this last fish survives!!
> if not - will I just be able to continue putting food in in order the keep the ammonia up or is there something else I'll need to do if I find myself fishless to keep from having to start from scratch??
> sorry I'm so full of questions - just trying not to screw up any more than I already have :/


Don't mind the questions, we are all here to offer assistance from our experiences and knowledge.

I have never done fishless cycling because I have planted tanks and the plants do the job as soon as fish are put in with them, provided there are lots of plants (normal well-planted aquarium) and not too many fish to over-balance the plants' capability of assimilating the ammonia/ammonium. But in fishless (and plantless) cycling, you have to provide ammonia, which can be fish food added daily. Some aquarists suggest bits of shrimp or prawn (dead of course), and pure ammonia (with no additives) is another method. If you ask about these, I will let those who have used them respond so I don't mislead.


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

thanks  
and hopefully I won't be doing it fishless either - so far so good with the last remaining cory - I shall name him SUPERCORY!! 
anyway... I've noticed that since I started using this Prime stuff that my water looks cloudy - do you suppose that is normal? and will it stop doing that once the tank is fully established?? 

as for the fishless cycling thing - I'll be sure to post that separately so it is titled appropriately


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

The cloudiness is probably a bacterial bloom, common in new tanks. Cloudiness should dissipate in a few days, it varies from tank to tank. If it is a bacterial bloom, frequent water changes will actually prolong it. Monitor the ammonia to keep it low (or if using Prime it is ammonium as I explained so that's OK so no need for extra water changes).


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

oh I don't have to change the water as often with the prime?? I've been trying to do at least 25% every other day - but yeah the cloudiness does tend to go away if it's more than a day or so between water changes 
how often should I be doing water changes now then? and how often should I add the prime? I assume it either has to be done WITH water changes to avoid overdosing the tank with it OR does it dissipate, making it possible to add more without changing the water? 
the bottle just says to add it with water changes 
how does one come to have all these answers? trial and error? haaa


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

brandelion said:


> oh I don't have to change the water as often with the prime?? I've been trying to do at least 25% every other day - but yeah the cloudiness does tend to go away if it's more than a day or so between water changes
> how often should I be doing water changes now then? and how often should I add the prime? I assume it either has to be done WITH water changes to avoid overdosing the tank with it OR does it dissipate, making it possible to add more without changing the water?
> the bottle just says to add it with water changes
> how does one come to have all these answers? trial and error? haaa


On the last question, yes.:lol: We all learn from going through this and most of us made similar or worse mistakes. We also learn from others to avoid those mistakes, which is the great benefit of this forum.

While most water conditioners say overdosing can't hurt, I prefer not using more than necessary. After all, they are chemicals, and while essential to detoxify chlorine/chloramine using more than required to do this is something I would avoid. Prime should be used when adding new tap water, and only enough for the volume of water added.

Prime will detoxify ammonia and nitrite, but in response to a direct question from me, Seachem indicated it is active for about 24 or maybe 48 hours, after which it will no longer detoxify anything. So my advice is to monitor ammonia daily, and watch your fish. If they show signs of stress, do a water change; in this case now I would say try 25%, using Prime. Monitor the results.

Were you using bacterial supplements, like Seachem's Stability? That will, in my view, help establish the bacteria.

And was your tap water tested for ammonia? Just to make sure we are not compounding the problem from there.


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

Byron said:


> On the last question, yes.:lol: We all learn from going through this and most of us made similar or worse mistakes. We also learn from others to avoid those mistakes, which is the great benefit of this forum.
> 
> While most water conditioners say overdosing can't hurt, I prefer not using more than necessary. After all, they are chemicals, and while essential to detoxify chlorine/chloramine using more than required to do this is something I would avoid. Prime should be used when adding new tap water, and only enough for the volume of water added.
> 
> ...


ahh well that's good - I was starting to feel like a huge moron haaa 
anyway - I've tested my tap water a couple times and gotten zero readings each time 
as for the prime - only enough for the amount of water I'm adding is GOOD to know!! I added enough for 20 gallons last night when I only added about 7 gallons to the tank!! I'll have to have the spousal unit do the math on that one or I'll never figure out what fraction of a capful is right for 5 gallons or so :/ 
being down to only one fish and considering the fact that the other fish went from normal to dead in about 24 hours - is it wise to wait until I see signs of stress before changing water/adding conditioner?? 
I guess so since that's what ya said - I just want to be doubly sure cause I REALLY don't wanna wake up and find myself fishless and back at square one in the cycling process after all these weeks!! 

as for the ammonia in the tank - for the first couple weeks it was .25 - then it changed to .50 and has been that way for like 3 weeks now no matter what I do :/ 
I did that water change at about 5pm last night and tested the water this afternoon around 1 and it was still .50
it never changes!! 
I suppose next time I should check it a little while after the water change - but I'm not made of money so I really don't want to be sitting here testing the water every 20 minutes hehehe 

oh and no I haven't been using any supplements at all - until Sunday I wasn't putting anything but water and food into the tank - is there a specific one you think I should try? I'm getting pretty eager to get things moving here - if for no other reason than to stop having to worry so much about my last little cory


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Given the "stall" in cycling, I would in this case recommend Seachem's Stability. The smallest bottle will do, they say to use it for 7 days but if you use it at the recommended dose and it runs out after 5 days or whatever, that's fine. It is live bacteria that will aid in establishing the colony of bacteria. I have used it and it does work.

Byron.


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

awesome - thanks!!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

In case you can't find Stability, another produce by Tetra is also good, it's called SafeStart. It is also 100% live bacteria. These two I recommend; some others use chemicals, not the same thing.

In either case, a small bottle will do you, once the tank is cycled this stuff is unnecessary and it has a shelf life, being live bacteria. If you don't use it all at first, it will not keep.


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## amazon21 (Jun 28, 2010)

safe start is hard to get though, I've never seen it in any of my LFS's. You could order it online though. Safe start bacteria has a high mortality rate, so use it as soon as you get it.


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

I live in the sticks - my choices are a petco close to an hour away (with dead fish everywhere and employees who couldn't find their a** with both hands) and a TINY hole in the wall strip mall pet store (the proprietor of which couldn't understand why I have ANY ammonia at all with 'only' 3 fish in the tank) o_0 
AND advised that it would be perfectly fine to have THIRTY fish in my 20 gallon tank :/ 

anyway - the point is I'm TOTALLY on my own when I step away from this forum... if these products are hard to find I kinda doubt either place will have them in stock 

but I'll definitely look!!


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## mweCH (Jul 3, 2010)

brandelion said:


> one more question - eventually at some point it will have taken all the rinsing it can handle and the cartridge in my current filter will need to be replaced - how do I do that without losing all the bacteria??


I think you can also put new filter media in the water someplace for a day or two before switching out the old. You can also do this to cycle a new tank (soak media in established tank and put in filter in new tank). 

Am I right in thinking this?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

mweCH said:


> I think you can also put new filter media in the water someplace for a day or two before switching out the old. You can also do this to cycle a new tank (soak media in established tank and put in filter in new tank).
> 
> Am I right in thinking this?


Yes, in an established tank placing filter media in the filter or elsewhere in the tank will allow bacteria to colonize it, since bacteria colonize every surface under water. Then the media can be used in another tank's filter. Provided the tank is well established (so there will be sufficient bacteria) and provided the media is left in it long enough (at least a week, a day or two might not achieve much depending upon the state of the tank), this works fine. Bacteria exist at the number necessary to use the ammonia regularly produced, and similarly the nitrite. The more fish, the more ammonia so the more bacteria. They do not multiply beyond the food source (ammonia or nitrite), and if this decreases they will die off accordingly. This is why I say it takes time for bacteria to colonize.

This works fine for new tanks, but I would not bother with this in established tanks. There will be bacteria everywhere once a tank has been running a few months and is stable (what we term established). Removing the filter media in such a tank will have minimal impact. In my tanks I never fuss over this, when I rinse the filter media I use warm tap water because I know there is so much bacteria elsewhere. Plus I have live plants so the bacteria is very secondary. But in newer tanks I do recommend precautions such as rinsing filter media in tankwater, etc.

Brandelion, a comment on your last post, Seachem products are usually regularly available in some of the pet chain stores, not sure which, but you will likely find it in at least one of the two; similar for Tetra products. If either store carries Seachem and/or Tetra, these products will likely be there. These manufacturers have been around a long time and have a large product list.

Byron.


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

thanks to the holiday last weekend I still haven't had a chance to get to the store for the stability or to have the hardness tested (def. this weekend!) 
but I have another couple questions... as suggested I added prime last time I did a water change and have been testing for ammonia (STILL .50 and ZERO nitrites :/ ) and monitoring the last remaining cory - you said if I see signs of stress to then do a 25% water change 

I haven't seen any signs of stress so I have not done a water change since that last one (a week ago) 
now that I think about it I'm confused as to whether you meant not to do any water changes unless I see signs of stress or not to do them as often as I was (which was every other day or so) 

if I am not supposed to do water changes at this point as long as the fish is looking good - do I need to add more prime at some point anyway? 

if I should be doing water changes regardless of how good the fish is doing, how often should I be doing them? 

also - if I should NOT be doing any water changes at this point, I assume I should at least be topping off the tank? it looks like it could take at least a gallon (it's about an inch from the bottom of the black rim) - when I do top it off I assume I need to use prime... how the heck do I add the prime for just ONE gallon of water??


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

In a 20g tank I would not worry about conditioning top-up water when it is only an inch or water more or less. However, having said that, a water change is preferable to top-ups. And a partial water change should be done every week. The amount depends upon the tank size and fish load. One fish in a 20g would be fine with a 20-25% water change weekly; 15 fish in a 20g should have 50% changed weekly. Live plants allow for less water to be changed, but I still do 50% of my tanks every week and have for 15 years and as far as I can tell the fish love it. Use Prime (or whatever conditioner one chooses) with every water change.

More frequent water changes are necessary for issues such as ammonia or nitrite above .25, and using Prime then is fine.

I do not advocate adding water conditioners at times other than water changes; they are not meant to cure problems, just condition tap water. Other products, or more frequent water changes, are intended to solve issues.

Stress with Corydoras begins with more rapid respiration (breathing) than normal. Regular observation of your fish will enable you to detect this fairly easily. But note that fish respirate faster when more active or eating, so don't jump to a conclusion that there is a problem. The second sign of trouble is lethargy; the cory becomes lethargic, just sitting here or there; sometimes in bad cases near the surface on plant leaves. Respiration will of course be rapid. An immediate 50% water change is advisable if you see this.

Byron.


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

UPDATE for Byron (and whoever else is interested) hehehe - as I expected petco was totally useless - the chick there was looking at me like I was nuts for even wanting to test my water hardness - apparently she couldn't (or didn't want to) test it for me -- so I just bought the only kit they had which she told me would give me the Gh/Kh numbers but it turned out to only give total hardness and alkalinity :/ 
both of which were at the max (out of my tap) 1000 ppm (hardness) and 300 ppm (alkalinity) - but I assume that information doesn't help... so I'm still on a quest to find the actual numbers asked for 
p.s. last cory is still alive & kicking *knock on wood* 
oh and I was so frustrated with the situation at petco that I totally forgot to even look for the Stability ~sigh 
and STILL no change in the numbers: ammonia STILL at .5 - nitrites and nitrate still at ZERO :/ 
I may have this 20 gallon tank set up with just one little cory in it for all eternity haaa


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

ugh! petco didn't have the Stability OR the Safe Start - I have ONE more place I can try but like I said before, they are a TINY little place so I don't have much hope that they will have them either :/ 

any other suggestions on what I can do to get this thing moving?? - it's been SIX weeks now - I tested again a few minutes ago and still NO nitrites - ammonia is down (from .5) to MAYBE .25 - I've given up testing for nitrAtes at this point as I assume no nitrites yet means no nitrates ??


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

With just the one little fish it may be long to cycle, or it may cycle without you noticing. Beyond what I have suggested I'm at a loss.


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

ok - well thanks =) 

I'm obviously kind of reluctant to put more fish in there to increase the load - aside from the cost I don't want to torture the poor things with the ammonia or whatever - plus I keep being told to not add any more fish with the ammonia where it is, so I guess I just have to wait it out - hope SUPERCORY doesn't get too lonely in there =( 

how would I know if it cycled without me noticing?? I've gotten somewhat lazy about testing because it seems like I'm pouring money down the drain (that kit wasn't cheap!!) so I'm testing pretty much once every other day - and I assume the ammonia would be at zero if there were any nitrates 
but my assumptions don't get me very far these days haaa 

I do have another question though... I WAS planning on getting a bristlenose pleco EVENTUALLY to help take care of the algae situation - but with this taking so long (and the fact that stupid petco doesn't ever seem to have them in stock... plus I'm concerned about the water hardness factor) I haven't been able to

but the spots that I assume are algae, on the glass have been slowly multiplying over the weeks and I'd like to nip that in the bud - any idea what I can do about that without someone in there to eat it?


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## tanker (Mar 13, 2010)

I'm no expert, but I think you'll need to add more fish. Either it's cycled because you've got such a low load with just the one fish (I never seemed to get any ammonia in my betta tanks with just the one fish) or you need to up the amount of waste so that your filter can increase its amounts of bacteria. 

I cycled with fish. I changed some water *every* day (one day I did it twice, when i couldn't tell the colour of the reading and was worried that it was high). It seemed to take ages for nitrites to appear, but eventually they did. My 35 litre took 5 weeks, 5 days and my 75 litre took 6 weeks 1 day. That's with several fish and daily water changes. From what I understand from reading, your fish won't be getting poisoned from ammonia if you keep changing the water to keep the concentration down. I don't know if changing the water so much extended the cycle time, but it did keep (most of) my fish alive. 

If I were you, I'd be adding some fish, testing for levels, and changing the water a lot to keep it down to the lowest reading possible. JMO. Maybe try adding one at a time?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Yes, I tend to agree with that. Sorry, I've forgotten the tank size and intended fish, but just a couple small ones of something you want as long as they are not super sensitive. A 50% partial water change every day is the worst it could get, but like tanker I somehow doubt this.


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

hmm ok cool - thanks =) I'll look into adding a fish or two this weekend - I initially had two more cories in there and the ammonia was no different than it is now (until yesterday it didn't go down at all after they died, which was a couple weeks ago) so I kinda doubt I'd need to increase water changes that much too 

eventually I'd like to replace the cories but knowing what I know now I'll wait on that until things in the tank are straightened out and we figure out the hardness situation... 

as of now I have been at a loss as to how to stock the tank and with the potential hardness issues I'm at even more of a loss 

fish I was originally considering are, as I mentioned yesterday, a bristlenose pleco (cause they're weird and cute and would help with the algae) 

also considering: tiger barbs, red wag platy, black neon tetras, cherry barbs, possibly some type of guppies 

obviously I'm looking for some color to contrast the otherwise darkness of the tank which has black gravel and a black background - but also something more active than my previous tank which held one cory, a pleco, two angelfish and two swordtails and was obviously a VERY mellow tank 

any idea if any of these would work or any suggestions for what else might work? 

oh sorry I forgot to mention it's a 20 gallon high


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## Calmwaters (Sep 2, 2009)

I have Cherry Barbs and Tiger Barbs, and Golden Barbs and they are all wonderfull and very active but they need to be in groups of at least 5 or more.


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## tanker (Mar 13, 2010)

My 75-litre tank (about 20 US gallons, I think) has high pH (and, I think, hard water as well, although I've never actually tested the hardness - a guy at the fish shop once commented that the water was hard "as expected"). I've got platies, pristella tetras and corydoras trilineatus in there and they are all doing well. The pristella tetras seem to be ok in the higher pH water than some of the other tetras which need soft water.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

brandelion said:


> hmm ok cool - thanks =) I'll look into adding a fish or two this weekend - I initially had two more cories in there and the ammonia was no different than it is now (until yesterday it didn't go down at all after they died, which was a couple weeks ago) so I kinda doubt I'd need to increase water changes that much too
> 
> eventually I'd like to replace the cories but knowing what I know now I'll wait on that until things in the tank are straightened out and we figure out the hardness situation...
> 
> ...


Please look up those fish in our profiles; they are all included. Barbs under Cyprinids, tetras under Characins, guppy and plat under Livebearer. Minimum numbers are given (the barbs and tetras are shoaling fish that must be in groups to be healthy), water parameters, compatibility issues, etc.

One comment I will make, forget the tiger barbs in a 20g. These fish are by nature feisty and nippy, and in a large group (9 or more) they sometimes simmer down at least with other fish. A 20g high is not adequate for them anyway because they need swimming room, a long tank is preferable than a high. Some other barbs and tetra are similar, some not; this also is mentioned in the profiles.

Also check the fish mentioned by subsequent posters. Pristella are good tetra, they do fairly well in hard water (they are the only species of characin I know of that tolerates brackish even). Again, all this is mentioned in the profiles so I needn't repeat all that.

Byron.


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

awesome =) thanks guys!! 
I'll look for those pristella tetras - they actually seem pretty perfect for what I'm after 

but I assume I should avoid the pristella tetra at the moment - I mean as far as for the purpose of adding more fish (as suggested) to help along the cycling process, since they need to be in a larger group? I'm guessing it would NOT be a good idea to put 6 or 7 fish in at once, particularly at this point? or if I find them, is it ok to just get a few and then complete the group once the tank is established? (I'm not sure I'll be able to find them at all as the two places that sell fish around here seem pretty limited in what they keep in stock... so I'm concerned IF somehow I do manage to find them and get a few now I might not be able to find them again in the future to complete the group) - especially since I'd REALLY like to avoid buying any fish at petco as each time I enter that store I get more and more disgusted :/ 

anyway - what I'm thinking now is: 6 or 7 of the pristella tetras (black neon tetras if I can't find the pristella tetras) and maybe 3 - 5 red wag or sunset platies (for color) - as far as the cory situation goes... the one I have left is doing fine all by himself NOW, but since they like to be in groups, should I expect this to change once I add other fish - or am I just kidding myself about him being fine now? 

I'd LIKE to add a few more corys to give him some friends - but I'm concerned about having too many fish in too small a space - although I AM planning to get at least a small sponge filter in addition to the power filter I have now - I assume that will help... hopefully 

I'd like to say I'm just about done with all the questions, but I wouldn't count on it!! hehehe 

p.s. that's good to know about the tiger barbs... I WAS planning on this being a long tank but I must not have been paying attention when we bought it... it didn't occur to me that the high tanks were even included in the sale - if I had been paying attention I would have grabbed the 29 gallon instead of the 20... but I guess I had something in mind and didn't take the time to look at what else was on the shelves


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

Well, my tank is finally cycled too and I think that adding a few more fish is what did it. After I added, I was checking water daily too. Finally it happened. I was also doing water changes each day of about 25% or so. Adding Prime every time. The next day, it would show Ammonia and Nitrite but Byron assured me that Prime was doing it's job and converting the Ammonia and Nitrite into less toxic form. The fish were thriving and all was well.

I have Barbs, and I agree that 20 gallon is too small for a school of them. I did want to tell you though, that I added 3 at a time until I had my school. 1 did pass on a few hours after I brought it home so I now have 8 Tiger Barbs. I would suspect you can do the same with your fish of choice. They school just fine even though they didn't come at the same time. They were from different batches at the store too, and they get along fine. As fine as Barbs get along. They are sassy but interesting little fish. 

Glad to hear that your Cory is still making it. He really is a SuperCory. 

Edit to add: Don't worry, you can alway add a second tank down the road. Maybe fill it with Barbs. LOL Good luck with that. I am already thinking of a second tank too, though it will be awhile.


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

*UPDATE*: 

as I said a couple days ago I had gotten lazy about testing for nitrAtes because daily to every other day testing of ammonia and nitrItes showed consistent numbers of .50 (ammonia) and ZERO (nitrite) 

but when I tested 2 days ago and got a lower ammonia reading of .25 and then another test today of .25 I decided just for s&g to test for nitrates again - it had been a couple weeks because I figured if I never saw nitrite it couldn't possibly have moved along to the nitrate stage... 

and GUESS WHAT!! 

I got a reading of 5.0!! - I even did the test again to make sure I didn't screw it up somehow the first time 

so now I have ammonia at .25 (it's really kinda hard to tell between zero and .25 but since there is an ever so slight tinge of green it must not be zero) 

nitrite = zero 
nitrate = 5.0 
ph = 7.8 

and I figured as long as I had my hands full of fishy water I might as well test it with that lame-o strip hardness test I got the other day... it looked to be closer in color to the 300 ppm than the 1000 - but it was probably somewhere in between - and the alkalinity was at the max 

so what does all this mean? shouldn't I be seeing ZERO ammonia if I'm seeing nitrate... or is it picking up ammonium from the use of the prime (it's been about 5 days since my last 25% water change and addition of the prime) 

p.s. in case you skipped to the end... I have a few stocking questions a couple posts up =)


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

Inga said:


> Well, my tank is finally cycled too and I think that adding a few more fish is what did it. After I added, I was checking water daily too. Finally it happened. I was also doing water changes each day of about 25% or so. Adding Prime every time. The next day, it would show Ammonia and Nitrite but Byron assured me that Prime was doing it's job and converting the Ammonia and Nitrite into less toxic form. The fish were thriving and all was well.
> 
> I have Barbs, and I agree that 20 gallon is too small for a school of them. I did want to tell you though, that I added 3 at a time until I had my school. 1 did pass on a few hours after I brought it home so I now have 8 Tiger Barbs. I would suspect you can do the same with your fish of choice. They school just fine even though they didn't come at the same time. They were from different batches at the store too, and they get along fine. As fine as Barbs get along. They are sassy but interesting little fish.
> 
> ...


------------------------- 

look! look! I have nitrates!! FINALLY!! WOO HOO!!! 

anyway... yeah I think I'm gonna steer clear of the tiger barbs for now - maybe I'll do them when I take out my second couch and put in the 150 gallon tank (ha ha) 

my house is TINY - I don't think I have any place to put another tank =( 
the one I have now is to the left of my tv... if I could convince my husband to get rid of his stupid cd rack I MIGHT be able to put another 20 gallon to the right of the tv haaa 

as it is now I find myself staring at the bubbles and SUPERCORY more than the tv anyway... and that's something because I am a tv junkie and the one we have is like 50 inches!! haaa 

I wouldn't count on another tank any time soon... I'm one of those freaks that is almost incapable of spending money... as it is it took me almost 5 years to bite the bullet and get this one - my husband actually made me get it because it was like ALL I've talked about since I had to sell my previous setup


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

LOL You are as excited about finally seeing Nitrites as I was. I got giddy. lol Now, On to the Nitrates. I had both Ammonia and Nitrite for awhile. In fact, even now that I have Nitrate of 10-20 ppm, Water still shows Ammonia and Nitrite on my tests (less each day) The fish have been just fine and Byron assured me that with the use of Prime, it was turning the harsh chemicals into less toxic forms. THANK GOD FOR BYRON!!! He was right, my fish are just as happy as can be and show no signs of stress other then when I stick my giant arm in there to change things around. lol

Here is to dreaming about that 150 gallon tank.


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

Inga said:


> LOL You are as excited about finally seeing Nitrites as I was. I got giddy. lol Now, On to the Nitrates. I had both Ammonia and Nitrite for awhile. In fact, even now that I have Nitrate of 10-20 ppm, Water still shows Ammonia and Nitrite on my tests (less each day) The fish have been just fine and Byron assured me that with the use of Prime, it was turning the harsh chemicals into less toxic forms. THANK GOD FOR BYRON!!! He was right, my fish are just as happy as can be and show no signs of stress other then when I stick my giant arm in there to change things around. lol
> 
> Here is to dreaming about that 150 gallon tank.


well at least I'm not the only giddy weirdo hehehe 
but no I'm seeing nitrAtes!! still have yet to see anything above a zero reading for nitrItes - maybe I missed it at a point when I went a few days without testing (after I started using the prime and the cory was looking good I kinda laid off the obsessive testing and went to only checking for nitrIte every couple days) 

for weeks my ammonia was consistently .5 until a couple days ago when it came up at barely .25 (I say barely because it's hard to really tell there's any green at all... but there is) 

so with that and since I hadn't tested for nitrAtes in a couple weeks I figured I'd give it a go (fully expecting a big fat zero as usual!!) but what I got was a big fat 5!! TWICE!! (maybe even somewhere between 5 and 10 but it looked closest to 5) all I know is it definitely was NOT ZERO hehe WOO HOO 

it's about darn time I say!! 

and yes - I think I ♥ Byron!! 

they should totally sell I ♥ Byron coffee mugs or something hehehe 

and yeah... a 150 gallon tank would be a lot more useful than... LOTS of the other stuff I have laying around here!!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

:thankyou: You're very kind.

On the suggested stocking, I would add the Pristella first; 6 of them even, if there is doubt you will get more in a week, but if the store will hold 3 and give you three now, fine. After a few days the other 3 can go in too.

Plan on more corys, 2 more to make a trio but 4 more to make five would be best, but wait a month before adding corys, they do much better in an established aquarium.

Byron.


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

Byron said:


> :thankyou: You're very kind.
> 
> On the suggested stocking, I would add the Pristella first; 6 of them even, if there is doubt you will get more in a week, but if the store will hold 3 and give you three now, fine. After a few days the other 3 can go in too.
> 
> ...


ok that is what I will do, assuming I can find them - will black neon tetras work in the event that I can't find the pristellas? 
I don't know if you noticed but I discovered nitrAtes (5.0) today - not sure what that really means as far as stocking goes as I'm only adding a few fish this weekend anyway, but I'm pretty happy about it =) 
I assume that means I can worry somewhat less about the fish now? 

I don't think black neon tetras will work in an uncycled tank (and I don't know if my new discovery of nitrates means it's cycled 'enough') so if I can't find the pristellas and I can't start with black neon tetras, would a few platies work for starters? (their profile seems favorable but I just want to double check) 

also, now that I have some nitrates - I assume I should not bother getting the Stability or SafeStart? 

alllllllsooooo - even though I'm FINALLY seeing nitrates, I'm also still seeing a bit of ammonia (maybe .25) - is that normal or is that possibly because of the Prime? (I haven't added any prime since my last 25% water change which was 5 days ago) - I never did see any nitrItes so I'm not sure what's happening is what's supposed to be happening... 

ohhh and while I'm at it - I just want to double check that the pristellas will be ok in my seemingly super hard water (still having trouble tracking down a test or someone who will test it for me) 

ok I think that's it (for now) -- going to the fish store tomorrow -- WOO HOO!! =)


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

If your water is quite hard, I would not risk black neons, for the reason noted in the profile. Platys are fine in harder water, as are all livebearers. Pristella Tetra manage in harder water as well.

On the cycling, an aquarium is "cycled" when the bacteria are present in proportion to the fish in the aquarium at that point. I think we can assume your aquarium is cycled for the fish in it now. It will remain at this level unless something is done to alter the fish load, either adding or removing. The bacteria will then multiply or die off respectively. Nitrosomonas and nitrospira bacteria only exist if they have "food" (ammonia and nitrite respectively). If this food increases, they will multiply; i f it decreases, they will die off.

Nitrosomonas bacteria take approximately 9 hours to multiply; they do this by what we call binary division, where each bacterium divides into two bacteria. So if the ammonia increases, as when you add new fish, or if you overfeed or a fish dies, the bacteria will multiply in about nine hours. We don't add too much ammonia at once (via many new fish) because there are only so many bacteria now and they have to divide so at the most they could double their number in 9 hours roughly, then those could double in another nine hours, etc., if the ammonia is present to warrant that. Similar for nitrospira, but they require about 20 hours to multiply.

The advantage of planted tanks is that the plants use the ammonia (as ammonium) for their nitrogen, and they are so efficient at grabbing it they out compete the nitrosomonas bacteria. And because plants do not produce nitrite when they assimilate the ammonia/ammonium, once they use the ammonia that is it. So theoretically speaking, there can be more fish added to a well-planted tank, and sooner, because there is in fact no "cycle" as such.

So without plants, you have to go slow. A few fish should be OK, but monitor their behaviour and check ammonia, and be prepared (though it may not be necessary) to do a partial water change. Using Prime will help, as by the time the ammonia detoxification by Prime is worn out the bacteria will be able to handle the increase.

Byron.


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## tanker (Mar 13, 2010)

As for getting the pristella tetras, ask at the shop even if they don't have them in stock. They may get them for you. My fish shop has got me things that weren't kept in stock. As long as their suppliers have them (at a reasonable price) they can get them for me.


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

ok you guys are probably gonna hate me for not doing what you suggested (I know you won't hehehe) 
but after a 5 hour wild goose chase yesterday I came across a 3rd fish store - and unlike the increasingly disappointing petco and the possibly puppy mill supporting hole in the wall joint I mentioned before, this place sells NOTHING BUT FISH and fish supplies!! they've been in business for several years and the place is clean and smells like nothing but proper aquarium water!! AND he says he can get ANY fish I want as long as it's legal haaa 

so I wanted to run by you guys what the proprietor there has suggested... and fill you in on the best I could do as far as GH & KH test results... 

so here it goes: after driving around for quite a while looking for said 3rd fish store I gave up (at first) and ended up reluctantly having petco test the water :/ 

they used a strip so I'm not sure how accurate it was but he said the GH was 150ppm and the KH was 180ppm 
I tested the ph myself the day before at 7.8 

after that I FINALLY found this other fish store (the guy at petco gave me the address) and after a very lengthy conversation the guy there suggested I hold off on getting any fish and keep doing what I've been doing for at least another week to see what the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate numbers do - to make sure they're stable I guess 

and he suggested I try doing my water changes or at least part of them with reverse osmosis water (which apparently can be bought by the gallon for round about the same price as spring water) to help reduce the hardness, so I don't have to be SO concerned about the hardness factor as far as fish selection and possibly switching over to live plants (which I'm seriously considering!) 

so any ideas on all of this? I have no idea what those numbers mean as far as the GH & KH -- or what I should make of this 3rd fish store's suggestions...


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

First on the hardness, those numbers indicate medium hard which is not bad nor unworkable. In our profiles the hardness uses the degrees scale (the numbers you have are ppm or parts per million) so this equates to around 9 and 10 dGH. So fish where the hardness is said to be < 12 dGH (= less than 12 dGH) would be OK as far as hardness. pH and temp also count of course.

With the hardness as above and a pH of 7.8, you will have basically no trouble with plants. As for fish, it depends what you want. Livebearers will obviously be right at home with no adjustment to your water from the tap (other than conditioner obviously). There are some other fish that also prefer water in this range, or can manage quite well (like the Pristella Tetras). Tank-raised soft water fish usually adapt fairly well, though some would be better with slightly acidic (pH high 6's). RO water would achieve this, mixed in with tap water.

You should take the time--and I have no objection to their advice to wait another few days, once the tank is cycled it will remain cycled with the fish now in it, as I explained previously, this is not going to change unless you do something drastic--to go through our profiles and select fish you might like to have regardless of their water requirements. Make a list, write down their water requirements and any issues under compatibility/temperament such as must be a group of 6, must have wood, or whatever. If you find something you really would like, find others that share those requirements and have suitable behaviours to be compatible. Fish that have very similar requirements is a key to success with a community tank (community meaning different species of fish as opposed to a tank with only one fish species). If you are unsure about anything as you do this, ask us; chances are each of the fish listed has been kept by one of us at some point in time.

Once you have your list, look at the water parameters; if soft acidic is mandatory for what you want, then RO is in the picture. At that point I would suggest getting a RO unit rather than buying water. The latter gets expensive, and you will need to have water for regular water changes plus emergencies. Only the other day I noticed something wasn't right in one of my tanks, not sure yet what it was, but obviously something, so I did a massive water change of about 75%. Right as rain now, no idea what, but these things happen and not having water available could mean the loss of fish. An RO unit is expensive, not sure exactly how much, but long-term the cost of buying water would surpass the cost of a unit and you wouldn't have that comfort of knowing you are prepared for anything. It's like buying high quality heaters rather than less expensive ones to save $30--when the night comes that the heater fails and you lose most or all of the fish the $30 saved on the cheap heater won't seem such a good idea.

Byron.


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

ok so then it seems like I'm on the right track - I KNOW I'm going to want something in there that will eat algae... I assume that will require softer water than what I have naturally - but I'm still trying to figure out exactly what to do as far as other fish go so I guess I'll worry about that later 

I did forget to mention that the guy at this 3rd fish store suggested that I not do any water changes for at least the next week - basically aside from feeding supercory, he thinks I should just pretend the tank isn't even there 

this kinda made sense since I think a lot of problems are caused by too much fussing :/ 

anyway... I was curious what you guys thought of that plan 

also... I tested the water again this morning just to double check that everything is as it should be (guess ignoring things will take a little getting used to) 

looks like nitrAtes are at about 10 - STILL not seeing ANY nitrItes - but today the ammonia is closer to .50 (where it was barely .25 a few days ago) - if the nitrAtes are there and seemingly rising, shouldn't ammonia levels be getting LOWER?? 

the only thing I can think is that I might be slightly over feeding... it's very hard to break off a tiny enough piece of a bottom feeder pellet for one tiny cory :/ 
but I do the best I can... and only feed him every other day - although he does seem to be constantly chowing down on SOMETHING in/on the rocks and gravel (if all that 'sniffing' he does is actually eating)


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

This thread is at 6 pages and I'm not going back through it all to refresh my memory, so if anything here is repetitious, sorry about that.

The tank may be cycled if nitrate show at 10. I would add a couple fish (think we earlier came to that decision). The ammonia at .5 I can't explain; did we eliminate tap water as a source of ammonia? When did you test the ammonia--time of day, after a feeding, after a water change can all impact results.

As for water changes, in a cycled normal aquarium, a water change once every week (on the same day of the week obviously) is recommended by almost every aquarist. The volume depends upon the fish stocking; the more and/or larger the fish, the more water needs changing. Plants (many) allow for less water, provided fish are in balance.

When ammonia or nitrite rises above .25 50% of the water should immediately be changed using a good water conditioner. However, if this reading is the same day as the water change and a conditioner that detoxifies ammonia/nitrite was used, it is fine; tests will still show the numbers. Observe the behaviour of the fish. At any sign of stress--in this case of ammonia or nitrite, red gills, very rapid breathing, hanging at the surface would each (or together) be signs of stress.

Byron.


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

Byron said:


> This thread is at 6 pages and I'm not going back through it all to refresh my memory, so if anything here is repetitious, sorry about that.
> 
> The tank may be cycled if nitrate show at 10. I would add a couple fish (think we earlier came to that decision). The ammonia at .5 I can't explain; did we eliminate tap water as a source of ammonia? When did you test the ammonia--time of day, after a feeding, after a water change can all impact results.
> 
> ...


 can't say I blame ya not wanting to go back through 6 pages hehehe 
I did the test this morning at about 9am (BEFORE I fed the fish) I actually hadn't fed him since Saturday (until this morning... I'm trying to only feed him every other day) I also have not changed or topped off the water since LAST Sunday - I've been on a weekly water change schedule for the last two weeks since the fish has seemed fine and I think you had said not to bother changing water every other day anymore at this point since the fish is doing fine and water changes didn't seem to be lowering the ammonia anyway 

I would have changed the water yesterday but was TRYING to follow fish store #3's suggestion of holding off for another week... but when I saw the ammonia back up at .5 that is when I remembered I never mentioned that plan here and wanted to get your opinion - now I'm thinking I should just scrap that guys plan and do at least 25% (by the way, his suggestion for regular partial water changes once everything is all fully established is once a month) 

I have tested my tap water and got zero ammonia but that was straight out of the tap - is that something that needs to sit over night to get an accurate reading? 

either way I have not changed or added any water since my last few ammonia readings of .25 

so I assume it has to be from food or waste 

as for getting a couple fish now - the guy at fish store #3 said he wouldn't even sell me any fish with my ammonia where it's at and it was only .25 at that point - now with it at .5 I don't think he'll be any more on board :/ 

of course I would love to add some fish... I'm getting kinda sick of running this thing with just one tiny cory in there - but just so I have this straight - you think it's ok for me to add a couple fish even with the ammonia at .5? 

oh and supercory is showing no signs of any problems - he's swimming around 'sniffing' at all the rocks and gravel as usual and I don't see any redness =) - knock on wood - 

by the way - sorry I'm so long winded... I'm just trying to be as thorough as possible


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

brandelion said:


> can't say I blame ya not wanting to go back through 6 pages hehehe
> I did the test this morning at about 9am (BEFORE I fed the fish) I actually hadn't fed him since Saturday (until this morning... I'm trying to only feed him every other day) I also have not changed or topped off the water since LAST Sunday - I've been on a weekly water change schedule for the last two weeks since the fish has seemed fine and I think you had said not to bother changing water every other day anymore at this point since the fish is doing fine and water changes didn't seem to be lowering the ammonia anyway
> 
> I would have changed the water yesterday but was TRYING to follow fish store #3's suggestion of holding off for another week... but when I saw the ammonia back up at .5 that is when I remembered I never mentioned that plan here and wanted to get your opinion - now I'm thinking I should just scrap that guys plan and do at least 25% (by the way, his suggestion for regular partial water changes once everything is all fully established is once a month)
> ...


That's fine, no problem ensuring everything is covered. Good policy.

Well, I wouldn't trust any "aquarist" who only recommends a 25% water change once a month. Little good that would be, unless you only have one fish in a large tank. But once a week, 30% I would suggest at this point in time.

And yes, I definitely say add a couple small fish, nothing too sensitive because while the tank is likely cycled (in my view) it is yet to become "established" and fluctuating water conditions can occur up to that point, which some fish find more and very stressful. Like cardinal tetras or rummynose tetras for instance, never in new tanks.

I am a bit puzzled by that ammonia, but I suggest the above knowing it is there.


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

ok you talked me into it... as soon as I can get somewhere I'll grab something - the profile says a platy will work so maybe I'll do a couple of them 

as for the water changes - his suggestion was more like 40% once a month - I told him I used to do 50% monthly on my original tank (20 gallon with 2 angelfish, a pleco, a cory and a swordtail... I know, unwise choices! but they were okayed and even encouraged by the OTHER pet store I'm trying to avoid) 

anyway - fish store #3 guy thought 50% monthly was great... but then he also said he has customers that haven't changed their water for years and he seemed ok with that, so I don't know :/ 

to be honest I'll probably end up doing 30% every other week once it's fully established unless I see some problem otherwise - until then I think I'll stick with your idea of 30% a week... that is just what feels right =) 

as for the ammonia - if you're puzzled then I am double puzzled... hopefully it will work itself out


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Most of us here will recommend weekly water changes. The volume can depend, and that is part of the issue of why do them at all.

Stuff gets in the water from the fish that cannot be removed by a filter, and not just waste. Bacteria breaks down solid into liquid and organics, and filters move it around the tank until you take it out. We generally have more fish in any aquarium than what "nature" can handle, even with plants. But a well-planted tank with a balanced (moderate) fish load can go without a water change period. But it has to be balanced. The more fish, or the larger the fish are, the more impact on the water and the more needs to be changed.

So while those who advocate no water changes (this must have plants), and those who say once in 6 months, or once a month, or weekly are all correct depending upon the specific tank. And those who say change 25%, and those who say 35%, and those who say (like me) 50%--are all correct but not in every case.

Then there is the indisputable fact that fish respond positively to any water change. You can induce difficult fish to spawn with a water change. Every week I do my 50% and the fish that evening are as frolicsome as ever. It just makes good sense; fish in nature do not live in the same water for more than a second; water is always flowing past them, even in ponds and lakes there is water movement due to thermal currents. And the fish have so much more "space" that if they don't like the water they are in they can swim elsewhere. In an aquarium they are captive, literally, and forced to tolerate what we create. They may want to escape, but they can't. The water change gives them some relief.


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

ok that is an extremely good point (about them being trapped in the conditions we provide) it's funny because I said pretty much the exact same thing to a friend of mine who keeps 3 goldfish in a bowl!! 

I guess I just figured that with the bubbles, the agitation that the filter causes and most likely weekly 2 gallon (probably more in the winter) top offs, that a monthly 50% water change would be good - though I suppose the top offs don't do much as far as improving water conditions - so I think you're right, I'll do more frequent water changes... I know I would hate to be trapped in a confined area with no fresh air for any length of time - and it's probably not much different for the fish =) 

especially since I will probably be pushing the limits are far as the number of fish I'll have 

my current thought is that I will either ditch my current filter and replace it with one suitable for more like 40 gallons and also add a sponge filter suitable for like 10 gallons (the pump I have is only good up to 10 gallons) - or just keep this filter and add a better pump/sponge filter 

because my HOPE is that I can manage - 7 black neon tetras, 3-5 platy, 4 cories and something that will eat algae - maybe a bristnose pleco if I can track one down (so far no luck there :/) if I COULD manage to swing a few guppies in there I'd like that but I feel like I'm WAY pressing my luck with what I'm already hoping to do 

I also want to scrap all the plastic garbage I have in there and go with all live plants... but I'm not sure I have sufficient gravel to support root structures :/ 

guess I'll worry about that later though... 

anyway thanks for the reminder on how important frequent water changes are =) and I'm sure my fish will thank you too... if I ever have any hehehe


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

brandelion said:


> ok that is an extremely good point (about them being trapped in the conditions we provide) it's funny because I said pretty much the exact same thing to a friend of mine who keeps 3 goldfish in a bowl!!
> 
> I guess I just figured that with the bubbles, the agitation that the filter causes and most likely weekly 2 gallon (probably more in the winter) top offs, that a monthly 50% water change would be good - though I suppose the top offs don't do much as far as improving water conditions - so I think you're right, I'll do more frequent water changes... I know I would hate to be trapped in a confined area with no fresh air for any length of time - and it's probably not much different for the fish =)
> 
> ...


My only follow-up on this is to recommend that if you decide on plants, filtration should generally be minimal. Plants do a better job than almost any filter, plus the water movement tends to increase with more filtration which is counter-productive to plants. All this I eexplain in Part 3 of the "A Basic Approach..." series at the head of the Aquarium Plants section.

It is a myth that more or stronger filtration is somehow better; in 90% of aquaria it is anything but. The fish (and plants) in the tank determine the filtration needed, not the tank. There are those who think they can double the fish load by simply adding more filters; that does not work. You might be able to double the fish load by doing 90% water changes every day, or several times a day, but not with any amount of filters.


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

Byron said:


> My only follow-up on this is to recommend that if you decide on plants, filtration should generally be minimal. Plants do a better job than almost any filter, plus the water movement tends to increase with more filtration which is counter-productive to plants. All this I eexplain in Part 3 of the "A Basic Approach..." series at the head of the Aquarium Plants section.
> 
> It is a myth that more or stronger filtration is somehow better; in 90% of aquaria it is anything but. The fish (and plants) in the tank determine the filtration needed, not the tank. There are those who think they can double the fish load by simply adding more filters; that does not work. You might be able to double the fish load by doing 90% water changes every day, or several times a day, but not with any amount of filters.


good to know... good thing I come here because that is obviously contradictory to what everyone else (in the fish stores) is telling me 

actually fish store #1 says I can have upwards or 20 fish in my 20 gallon tank the way it is now :/ hence my distrust 

so by sane person standards - no matter what I do - 6 or 7 back neon tetras, 3 platy and 3 or 4 cories will be too much in this tank - with say 30% weekly water changes?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

brandelion said:


> good to know... good thing I come here because that is obviously contradictory to what everyone else (in the fish stores) is telling me
> 
> actually fish store #1 says I can have upwards or 20 fish in my 20 gallon tank the way it is now :/ hence my distrust
> 
> so by sane person standards - no matter what I do - 6 or 7 back neon tetras, 3 platy and 3 or 4 cories will be too much in this tank - with say 30% weekly water changes?


You can increase the corys to 5 if one species, 6 if two (3 of each minimum). Aside from that, I would not add anything. And assuming the platy are all one sex so you will not have spawning and dozens of fry every few weeks.

I have a 20g which currently houses 11 Emperor Tetra, and I can assure you this tank is *full.* They are there out of circumstance, not planned, as they took to terrorizing the other tetras in the main tanks and had to be removed. I would not normally suggest this many tetras in a 20g; they need space. On the other hand, 40 Boraras brigittae and 9 Coyrdoras pygmaeus would be OK in a 20g. The number itself is not important, it is the type of fish both from water quality and "space" requirement perspectives.


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

Byron said:


> You can increase the corys to 5 if one species, 6 if two (3 of each minimum). Aside from that, I would not add anything. And assuming the platy are all one sex so you will not have spawning and dozens of fry every few weeks.
> 
> I have a 20g which currently houses 11 Emperor Tetra, and I can assure you this tank is *full.* They are there out of circumstance, not planned, as they took to terrorizing the other tetras in the main tanks and had to be removed. I would not normally suggest this many tetras in a 20g; they need space. On the other hand, 40 Boraras brigittae and 9 Coyrdoras pygmaeus would be OK in a 20g. The number itself is not important, it is the type of fish both from water quality and "space" requirement perspectives.


that's why I'm asking here because I have no idea what makes one 2" fish be harder on a tank than another - even if I read the profiles it doesn't seem any more clear to me... and those aquarium calculators don't seem very reliable - I'm more of a 'hands on' learner - reading about things (especially too many things at once) just makes my mind go fuzzy... but dealing with living creatures I'd rather minimize the trial and error 

if I could have found pygmy cories I would have been all over them!! but as of yet I haven't been able to find them - these stores around here suck... with a capital UCK!! 

ok anyway - so 6 or 7 black neon tetras, 3 platy (female I assume? I think I read that males won't get along well on their own), and 5 or 6 corys - I can totally live with that!! 

but how do I make sure the idi... err fine young person working at the fish store, doesn't sell me a combo? 

fyi - I'm not opposed to the eating of fry - this IS nature we're talking about... but of course I would like to avoid it in the first place... especially since there's no way they would ALL get eaten 

I had two angelfish, one of which was always laying eggs (not that it's the same thing) - I think she was trying to attach them to the heater and they would float away and the other angel would swoop under her and devour them like fine caviar haaaa 

anyway - I suppose you would suggest live plants to help control the algae situation - which by my standards is getting out of control at the moment... (if I can see it, it's out of control) hehehe I'm a bit of a neat freak 

there have been spots (like on a glass that wasn't dried properly) forming inside the glass since a couple days in and they are multiplying rapidly - it's REALLY starting to bug me!! - and I definitely see green algae forming... and there are thin hair-like strands attached to one of my silk plants that are getting thicker and greener and fuzzier looking - obviously I can pick that off but it will just keep happening if I don't have something in there to control it 

my goal... crystal clear (or as close as possible) water and glass!!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

You've loaded that post with issues.:shock: I'll try to offer what I can on each.

Knowing how many of, and which species of, fish will work in this or that aquarium cannot be absolutely guaranteed, by any formula or even an aquarist who knows. But we can come pretty close, and avoid problems, and that is the important thing.

Livebearer fry will appear in numbers like 60+ every few weeks, from each inseminated female. Some will survive, that is probable in a planted tank, and unlike egglayers the fry of livebearers have a real advantage, they are "large" by comparison right from birth and grow fast. In no time you will have a biological issue if they are not all removed.

Livebearers have a modified anal fin on males called the gonopodium. With same sized fish it is easy to spot the difference. However, males become sexually active very early on, even before the fish get their colours, and one male can impregnate a tank of females. And each female can produce several broods from that one insemination. The best way to buy livebearer females that are virgin is to buy them from a reliable breeder who separates the fish from the first. This is how they cross fish to obtain colour variants. Or buy females and if they do produce fry cull them out until such time as the female is no longer capable.

Angelfish are known as bad parents for the first several attempts, and will frequently eat the eggs or the fry; wild fish are not the same, interestingly. And if frightened during one of these stages, the same can occur. They seem to prefer eating their own eggs rather than something else getting the nourishment. And in community aquaria, it is rare for even cichlid fry to fully survive. I have had experience with both rams; the eggs get eaten, or if they don't (and the eggs are easier than the swimming fry to protect) the fry will, as the concerted efforts by half a dozen fish in a feeding frenzy is not going to be thwarted by one female.

Algae is a natural part of an aquarium ecosystem and cannot be totally absent; if it is, I would suspect something is wrong with the biology. But we ensure it is controlled, by plants. If algae appears in excess, reducing the light will control it. Usually the duration, as I reduced my tanks from 12 to 11 hours and that ended a bout of increasing hair algae.

On no account use one of the chemicals to rid the tank of algae. These usually contain substances that will harm some or all of the plants, and chemicals always affect the fish so the fewer the better. Plus, the sudden dead algae can poison fish.

Spot or dot algae on the glass is easily removed with a good aquarium scraper.


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

Byron said:


> You've loaded that post with issues.:shock: I'll try to offer what I can on each.
> 
> Knowing how many of, and which species of, fish will work in this or that aquarium cannot be absolutely guaranteed, by any formula or even an aquarist who knows. But we can come pretty close, and avoid problems, and that is the important thing.
> 
> ...


sorry for the overloaded post - fish keeping seems to be like LOST - get one answer and 4 more come up haaa 

let me just start by assuring you I would NOT use chemicals to rid the tank of algae... I try to minimize the use of chemicals in all aspects of my life 

of course I expect SOME degree of algae growth in a box full of water with a light on top - but without live plants (for now) or anything in there to eat the algae, I foresee problems 

especially considering how much I'm seeing in there now after barely 2 months!! 

last night I noticed green growing on the walls - THAT just ain't gonna fly with me!! haaa 

I can reduce lighting time - I usually keep it on for about 12 hours a day - but with just the cory in there at the moment I don't suppose it needs much light at all... I'll knock it down to 10 hours or less for now 

I assume I should not go scraping algae off the glass without doing a water change? 

I bought a scraper last night on my trip to the fish store to buy my platy - which is a whole 'nother story in itself... needless to say, guess who came home fishless AGAIN haaaa 

I THOUGHT I was set on my plan - until I fell in love with some neon blue dwarf gouramis!! 

I'm thinking of scrapping the platy idea and going with 2 of those instead... everything else the same (black neon tetras and corys... but 2 dwarf gourami instead of the 3 platys) - would look WAY cooler AND eliminate the potential fry issue - since I don't trust any of these places to sell me virgin females 

so far everything I've read seems favorable... anyway - I have until Saturday to figure it out - I am buying SOMETHING on Saturday - PERIOD!! hehehe


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

First on the algae, if there are no live plants, there's the problem. Plants use the nutrients and light (if they are balanced) and algae doesn't stand a chance of becoming a nuisance. Only when the light exceeds what the plants need, or in your case all the light is there free for the taking, will algae increase. As you only need the light to view the fish in the absence of live plants, I would adjust your light schedule. I don't mean to keep turning the light on and off, that is disquieting for the fish, very much so. But only have it on when you normally view the aquarium, and try to keep the same schedule; a timer is best. Fish are living creatures programmed to a day/night of 10 hours daylight and 10 hours total darkness with the other 4 being dusk and dawn. While this does not have to be rigorously followed in the absence of live plants that have a definite need for specific periods of light and dark, a regular schedule will at least not be disruptive. With light over the tank, and nutrients inside (from the fish, fish food, water, organics, etc) algae will be there and proliferate if not kept in check. And without plants, that means less light, scraping the glass, etc. during a water change (to remove the algae scraped off, absolutly).

On the dwarf gourami, please read the profile before you decide on this fish, it has some issues as noted there.


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## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

You can get a simple mechanical timer for only about $5 at Target, Wal-Mart, or your super store of choice. My fish get their dawn light because the room is occupied and going well before the tank light turns on at 11:30 in the morning and they get dusk because I'm usually up after they turn off at 11:30 at night. Never had an algae problem in that tank and I have zero plants.

Well, now I have one that I added last week.


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

Byron said:


> First on the algae, if there are no live plants, there's the problem. Plants use the nutrients and light (if they are balanced) and algae doesn't stand a chance of becoming a nuisance. Only when the light exceeds what the plants need, or in your case all the light is there free for the taking, will algae increase. As you only need the light to view the fish in the absence of live plants, I would adjust your light schedule. I don't mean to keep turning the light on and off, that is disquieting for the fish, very much so. But only have it on when you normally view the aquarium, and try to keep the same schedule; a timer is best. Fish are living creatures programmed to a day/night of 10 hours daylight and 10 hours total darkness with the other 4 being dusk and dawn. While this does not have to be rigorously followed in the absence of live plants that have a definite need for specific periods of light and dark, a regular schedule will at least not be disruptive. With light over the tank, and nutrients inside (from the fish, fish food, water, organics, etc) algae will be there and proliferate if not kept in check. And without plants, that means less light, scraping the glass, etc. during a water change (to remove the algae scraped off, absolutly).
> 
> On the dwarf gourami, please read the profile before you decide on this fish, it has some issues as noted there.


in my other tank I never had this problem... but I had a pleco from day 1 that must have taken care of all the algae 

I currently keep the light on about 12 straight hours but I'll I'll just turn it on a couple few hours later in the day - I usually turn it on and off on the 8:30's - I guess I'll just start turning it on at 10:30 or 11 - I'm hoping to get some live plants this weekend 

I'll scrape what I can, do a water change and plant some plants 

and of course I'm holding off on getting the gouramis until I do a good amount of reading and thinking on it =) 

but I'm thinking I have to take a chance on SOMETHING at some point :/


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

Tyyrlym said:


> You can get a simple mechanical timer for only about $5 at Target, Wal-Mart, or your super store of choice. My fish get their dawn light because the room is occupied and going well before the tank light turns on at 11:30 in the morning and they get dusk because I'm usually up after they turn off at 11:30 at night. Never had an algae problem in that tank and I have zero plants.
> 
> Well, now I have one that I added last week.


cool - thanks =) 
I'll have to check that out!


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## OscarLoverJim (Jul 20, 2010)

brandelion said:


> your other question is the other reason I've been using spring water... I was told by (who I'm learning to be an unreliable source) the chick at the store that I wouldn't need conditioner if I used bottled spring water this made sense to me as I distinctly recall with my last aquarium that I didn't use conditioner... I just filled gallon jugs and let them sit for a week or more before adding them to the tank (and that water was so heavily chlorinated it burned my eyes in the shower (my current water is unchlorinated well water) my NEW plan - since I'm down to ONE cory now is to take water straight from my tap (so's to best match temp) and use conditioner --- do you have a suggestion as far as what conditioner would be best?


 
Hey Brandelion
I would strongly suggest using Prime as your water conditioner. Not only will it take care of clorimines if that is what your local water principality uses rather than regular chorine (more common nowadays and many conditioners won't break the choramine bond) but it will convert the ammonia to ammonium which is much less toxic to your fish while still consumable by your biological filter.


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## Tyyrlym (Jun 1, 2008)

I have to suggest Prime as well. It's a very good product. Most of your "Spring," waters and such aren't what you think they are. Tap + conditioner is just for your fish most of the time.


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

OscarLoverJim said:


> Hey Brandelion
> I would strongly suggest using Prime as your water conditioner. Not only will it take care of clorimines if that is what your local water principality uses rather than regular chorine (more common nowadays and many conditioners won't break the choramine bond) but it will convert the ammonia to ammonium which is much less toxic to your fish while still consumable by your biological filter.


I do use prime (now) - that quote is from a post like a month ago... somehow this thread has gone on and on and on :/ 

I have bigger fish to fry now... like which fish to buy!! hehehe


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## OscarLoverJim (Jul 20, 2010)

brandelion said:


> I do use prime (now) - that quote is from a post like a month ago... somehow this thread has gone on and on and on :/
> 
> I have bigger fish to fry now... like which fish to buy!! hehehe


 
Well cool


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

Hi Brandelion I see you are making some headway, good for you. I just noticed you are thinking of getting some live plants and some Gourami maybe this weekened. That is awesome but I have to warn you to maybe only go with 1 Gourami. The issue that I am having is not worth going through. I had 4 and I am down to 2. One of the Gourami killed the others. I didn't see it happen but I am sure of it because she keeps chasing the other remaining Gourami and she always chased the others. She seems to target one and go after them and then move to the next. I guess it is common that they can be territorial. It was another case of listening to the wrong folks, which is why I got 4. 

Also, people on here seemed concerned about them being with Tiger Barbs. The pet store also told me that was fine. So far, it is, hopefully it continues to be fine.

I do think the Gourami is pretty cool fish but maybe just stick with one. I wish I could send you one of mine, that would solve the Gourami war in my tank. lol Just thought if I could save you the hardship with telling you of my experience, it would be worth it.

I hope you will post some pictures of your tank and fish once you have it all planted and full. What kind of plants are you getting? If you do go with Gourami, they like floating plants too.


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## brandelion (May 17, 2010)

Inga said:


> Hi Brandelion I see you are making some headway, good for you. I just noticed you are thinking of getting some live plants and some Gourami maybe this weekened. That is awesome but I have to warn you to maybe only go with 1 Gourami. The issue that I am having is not worth going through. I had 4 and I am down to 2. One of the Gourami killed the others. I didn't see it happen but I am sure of it because she keeps chasing the other remaining Gourami and she always chased the others. She seems to target one and go after them and then move to the next. I guess it is common that they can be territorial. It was another case of listening to the wrong folks, which is why I got 4.
> 
> Also, people on here seemed concerned about them being with Tiger Barbs. The pet store also told me that was fine. So far, it is, hopefully it continues to be fine.
> 
> ...


I thought of you when I started considering the gourami - they were totally not even close to being on my radar - I swear I went into the store fully prepared to buy 3 red wag platy - my husband brought me over to show me the sunset platy tank and was like ooh look at THIS fish (the neon blue dwarf gourami) 

and I was like... whoa! gotta rethink my whole plan now!! haaaa 

I just think they would look SO COOL!! 

yours aren't dwarf gourami though, right? 

I have a little time to think about it because I don't even want to get ANY gourami until I have some decent plantage in there 

I also have to think long and hard because they are pretty darn expensive!! ($8 and change a piece!!) 

so for now I'm gonna concentrate on live plants and just putting a couple other fish in there and see how things go... since I've changed my mind on what to do at least a half a dozen times in the last 2 months I wouldn't be surprised if I don't wind up with the gourami 

but for now I'd really REALLY like to try!! 

as for plants - I really have no idea... I'd like some floating and some other stuff - my current thoughts lean toward: pygmy chain sword, brazilian pennywort and water sprite - but something a little tallish would be good too - and I'll probably wind up with a piece of driftwood with some sort of something attached to it (can't remember what it's called) haaaa 

live aquarium plants are TOTALLY foreign to me!! it's actually scarier to me than the actual fish for some reason - maybe because I don't have a history of killing animals haaaa 

and of course I'll post pics when I get everything up and running!!


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

Brandelion, You and I couldn't be more alike in this if we tried. I always went to the fish store with something in mind as well. I left with something different that they talked me into. Now, I have learned... stick to the plan. ha ha 

Now you know why I loved my little Blue Gourami, it was the cutest, sweetest little fish. I still have the one Blue left and though not quite as pretty his/her color is getting brighter each day. Now if Big Bertha can leave him alone, we will be getting somewhere. I really like the Gourami but again, I would recommend you only get one. 

I have a couple of pieced of Mopani wood in my tank and it is really nice but if you get some, boil it first to get some of the tannins out of it. It is easy to deal with. 

I am just going through my plant experience and everyone here can attest to the fact that I was a wee bit stressed on planting day. The Amazon Swords I got were from the fish store and they were easy to plant and look Awesome in the tank. I recommend them for you. 

I love the Anacharis, it is easy to plant and a really cool green. It would grow up enough to float some on the top and Your Gourami, should you go that route will love it.

The Pennywort I got from Angel is cool but I think my fish are a little too hard on it and it is getting smaller and smaller as time goes on. AT this rate, I have another week or two of it left. ha ha It isn't supposed to work like that but I accidentally fell for a plant eater when I went off my plan. (don't get a Leporinus cute but they get huge and eat plants) I also love the Camboba but it is a wee bit touchier it seems and needs a bit more light then some of the others. I also got a Java Fern from Angel and it is on one of my pieced of Mopani wood. It looks pretty cool and if that fills out, will be one of my favorites. I guess they grow very slowly. 

There are so many different kinds of plants, I think it is fun to try a few different kinds. Some of the kinds do best in groupings, from what I read. I do agree they look best in a group of 3 or so depending on tank size. Even 2 would look nice. 

If I can give you one word of advice, Have a large glass of wine before planting. ha ha Now that they are in my tank and seem to be staying put I will tell you it isn't that hard but on planting day, I was manic. ha ha

Thanks again to those on this forum who laughed with me and helped to talk me down.


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