# What to stock my 40gl



## AYE RUSS (Oct 18, 2009)

So im pretty much done with my cycle and water is where they're suppose to be. So far i have a pair of clowns plus a cleaner shrimp.
What should be my next addition or better yet
what do you guys recommend or suggest i can stock a 40gl with? thanks


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

The next thing I would be adding would be the cleaning crew... snails, hermit crabs, starfish, etc. 

How much live rock is in the tank? Is it a sand substrate? Are you running a skimmer? Planning corals?


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Agreed, although use caution with starfish. Most of the recent studies are finding that starfish are not able to sustain their dietary needs in smaller sized aquariums, and will far to often slowly starve to death over a period of many months. 

Welcome back Dawn! Hope you are doing well.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Thanks Pasfur, I am doing well and appreciate your warm welcome! If you haven't yet, be sure to check out my reef tank pics I put up the other night... its thriving.

I would like to add that I agree with watching starfish, but more watching the species of starfish instead of avoiding them all together. Just like with the other animals, some are more suitable for some situations than others, and that includes tank size. There are a number of starfish that could thrive in that size tank as long as their condition requirements are met. There are also starfish that will accept prepared foods, such as the brittle stars. Button brittles stay small enough for a 40 gallon provided there is only 1 in the tank, but also tile stars (not the easiest star to keep, not suggested for beginners), sand sifting stars work well if there is a healthy amount of sand bed, and if there is enough alage growth a blue linkia could also be worked into the mix later when the tank is mature. Check stats on the species before considering or purchasing a star, by all means. A note about the button brittles... they are great maintenance animals but be careful not to overfeed them. They will eat until they rupture the disk if allowed to.


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

bettababy said:


> Thanks Pasfur, I am doing well and appreciate your warm welcome! If you haven't yet, be sure to check out my reef tank pics I put up the other night... its thriving.
> 
> 
> > Hummm, the pics won't open for me and also let me say: Welcome back, Dawn. Nice to see you on the forum again.
> ...


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Thanks for the heads up on the pics Kymmie, and also the warm welcome. Gorgeous double yellow head parrot in your avatar photo, is it yours? 

I will see about fixing my pics asap.


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## AYE RUSS (Oct 18, 2009)

well right now i have about 30 lbs of live rock with 4'' live sand bed so far along with the fish i have i already have some snails (5) and some hermits (4) intrested adding some real nice looking fish now =)
i am running a protein skimmer also.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Great. It sounds like you have a nice setup in place. What fish do you have your eyes on?


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## AYE RUSS (Oct 18, 2009)

Well i really did want a snowflake eel but just not sure if my tank will be big enough especially in the future. Im really more into aggressive fish are they're any thatll fit in my 40? im really open to suggestions. Just want my tank to look more alive with color and action.


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## Cody (Dec 22, 2007)

If you want a snowflake, go ahead. Just know that you will never see the thing. "Action" and "Eel" should not be put together.

I would add more rock, too. In my 40G I have 75lbs ish of live rock, and that is low.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

AYE RUSS said:


> Well i really did want a snowflake eel but just not sure if my tank will be big enough especially in the future. Im really more into aggressive fish are they're any thatll fit in my 40? im really open to suggestions. Just want my tank to look more alive with color and action.


This concept does not apply at all to marine fish. First, the term "aggressive" does not apply in saltwater. ALL saltwater fish are highly territorial, but you can not determine the compatibility of marine fish based on how aggressive they are. Compatibility is based on similarities, which is exactly opposite from freshwater. In saltwater tank, the more similar the behaviors and dietary needs of a fish, the less likely they are to get along. You can take a highly aggressive species and mix it with a passive species, and if the passive species is not a "threat" then the two fish are generally fine together.

Further, most Predatory species are far less active than species which graze on algae and micro life. So, saying that you want a tank which is alive with color and action.... LOL. Welcome to the marine hobby, because these are the ONLY type of tanks we deal with.


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## AYE RUSS (Oct 18, 2009)

ahhhhh i see. So what do you suggest i get for my next fish that would be a good addition to my tank?


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Almost anything will work with 2 clownfish, so long as you choose fish which stay small.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Cody said:


> If you want a snowflake, go ahead. Just know that you will never see the thing. "Action" and "Eel" should not be put together.
> 
> I would add more rock, too. In my 40G I have 75lbs ish of live rock, and that is low.


Cody, I'm not sure where you got your information, but a snowflake eel cannot stay in a 40 gallon tank for very long. Simply put, they get way too big.
Also something to keep in mind... while alot of live rock is always a good thing, when dealing with a smaller tank, it must be remembered that live rock, sand, etc will replace water volume. Water volume is going to be just as important as having enough rock and sand. The key to success is balance.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

bettababy said:


> Cody, I'm not sure where you got your information, but a snowflake eel cannot stay in a 40 gallon tank for very long. Simply put, they get way too big.
> Also something to keep in mind... while alot of live rock is always a good thing, when dealing with a smaller tank, it must be remembered that live rock, sand, etc will replace water volume. Water volume is going to be just as important as having enough rock and sand. The key to success is balance.


There is a magazine in our hobby which is exclusively devoted to the saltwater hobby. The articles are the most up to date information available in the hobby, with the rare exception of some online published literature. You can subscribe to Coral magazine here:
Coral Magazine | The Reef & Marine Aquarium Magazine

The September/October issue of Coral magazine is devoted to the keeping of Moray Eels in captivity. The magazine opened my eyes to the requirements of these animals in captivity. One of the publishing authors, Dr. Marco Lichtenberger, would agree with Cody that a Snowflake Moray is an excellent choice for a 40 gallon tank. 

The Snowflake Moray only reaches a maximum length of 30 inches, making it one of the smaller Moray's available in the trade. 30 inches may sound large, but keep in mind the behavior of these fish. They spend almost all of their time curled up, hidden in a cave, just waiting for food to be presented. They may come out and forage about near dusk, but then rarely swim in the open water. 

The biggest challenge is the structure of the live rock and filtration of the aquarium. A considerable and sturdy live rock bed would be desired to form the cave structure that this fish would spend its life living in. Most likely you would choose to utilize large pieces of PVC to create the cave, covering the PVC with live rock that has been tightly bonded together with epoxy or cable ties to prevent tumbling. 

Filtration would be a huge key, as like most saltwater fish Moray's are sensitive to dissolved organic compounds. The use of an oversized skimmer would be desired, probably something rated at 75 to 90 gallons. Morays produce an extreme amount of waste and would require the large skimmer to maintain lower levels of nitrate.

On the subject of live rock addition, the amount of rock will greatly depend on the visual appeal to the aquarist. However, keep in mind that rock breaks up territory. 30 pounds of rock is not much, and you could easily add another 20 to 30 pounds without taking up much of the open swimming space. The species of fish will be critical as well, as many fish require more open swimming areas. However, in a 40 gallon tank, you are going to be limited to reef dwelling species, so concerns for open water will not be as important.


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## Cody (Dec 22, 2007)

I have too seen that article above, and I am basing this off that as well as other's personal experience. One can keep a snowflake in a 30G, with corals if they keep the filtration up. They are a good reef choice, saying they wont touch corals unless accidently bumped into. 

Also, going off what Pasfur mentioned, 30" is rare. I personally have never seen one go above 2 feet. 

My water displacement in my tank is less than 4 gallons. Maybe even 3. But saying my Clowns and Goby don't move from their homes, and my Angel has a "territory," I don't see much wrong doing. It all helps in the biological filtration. Plus, sand is gross. I wish I had gone bare bottom. I use it for pure aesthetics, because anything under 4" doesn't work in a DSB effect.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Cody said:


> Plus, sand is gross. I wish I had gone bare bottom. I use it for pure aesthetics, because anything under 4" doesn't work in a DSB effect.



LOL :-D

Yes, "sand is gross." My suggestion is to use a larger sand grade for systems that do not have 4'' of sand, AND to use less than 1''. My 180 FOWLR has just under 1'' of sand. The grade is a "reef grade" sand, with a particle size just large enough that it does not easily get stirred up when I am messing in the tank.

For true DSB systems, a 4''-6'' depth is ideal for denitrification. This would be my suggestion for anyone setting up a tank from scratch.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Rather than debate this issue, I am going to instead email Dr. Marco Lichtenberger for clarification. I cannot understand why someone like him would suggest such a thing unless he was implying it is ok to start out with a 40 gallon tank (and very young eel)... which would then, of course need to be upgraded as the eel grows. 
I say this because I have raised a snowflake moray to full grown, the store still had this very eel in the tide pool the last time I was there a few months ago. There is no way that animal would fit into a 40 gallon tank. It was moved to the 300+ gallon tide pool because it was impossible to keep up with the waste levels in a 92 gallon tank, and that was with running a large skimmer, sump system, and twice weekly water changes. 

Keeping that eel in 40 gallons would compare to keeping a St Bernard in a closet. 

I will come back and contribute again once I have heard from Dr. Lichtenberger.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

bettababy said:


> Rather than debate this issue, I am going to instead email Dr. Marco Lichtenberger for clarification.
> 
> I will come back and contribute again once I have heard from Dr. Lichtenberger.


This is awesome. I really love this part of our hobby, as it is often possible to reach out and obtain answers from the people with a great degree of expertise. 

Dawn... just to clarify. Dr. Lichtenberger does not give tank size recommendations in his article for every different species of Moray. However, he goes into great depth as to their care and needs in captivity. He also posts many pictures in the article of Morays living in captive aquariums, as well as discussing tank sizes for some of the species, allowing us to infer what would be practical.

I would really enjoy hearing from him as to what size tanks he feels are the minimum requirement for many different Moray species. I think this was missing from his articles and would prove to be extremely helpful.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

While I was searching for an address to write to Dr. Lichtenberger I came across the September 2009 issue of TFH Magazine on my shelf. This issue also has done a large write up about keeping various species of moray eels, including the snowflake. The reason I feel this is relevant to this topic is because it does map out in here proper tank size for a moray eel. On pg 103 it states..
"A reasonable rule of thumb for a minimal tank size for any species is: a minimum width of more than the length of the fish so it doesn't have to fold itself in half to turn around, and a length of several times the length of the fish so it can swim a bit before hitting the end."
The maximum size they offer for a snowflake is 40 inches. This is a very informative article and one I would suggest for anyone who is considering keeping any species of moray.

Simply put, a 40 gallon tank does not meet those minimum requirements. I am off now to seek out Dr. Lichtenberger.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Ok, I did as I said I would, and I emailed Dr. Lichtenberger. I am going to first post my letter to him, and follow it with his reply to me that I received tonight.

_"Dear Dr. Lichtenberger,
__
My name is Dawn Moneyhan, I am an aquatics specialist & nutritionist 
in Wisconsin. I frequent a number of online forums to help people 
with their many fish & aquarium questions and problems during my spare 
time. 

The reason I am contacting you is in regard to one such forum and your 
recent article in Coral Magazine about Moray Eels. While I have not 
personally yet read your article, (can't afford the magazine 
subscription at this time) apparently some of these people in the 
forum have. In reading your article they have formulated for 
themselves what is a proper environment for a snowflake moray eel. My 
concern comes from finding out that many of these people believe and 
accept what others believe, that based on your article, it is 
appropriate to raise and keep a snowflake moray eel in a standard 40 
gallon tank.

While as I have stated, I have not read your article yet, I have 
raised and kept a snowflake moray eel. I am very aware of their needs 
and requirements, thus I am very sure when I advise others that a 
standard 40 gallon aquarium will not house an adult snowflake moray, 
nor will it support that particular fish's needs with the extreme 
amounts of waste they accumulate in their water. 

Unfortunately, my word alone is not enough for the people of this 
forum, and I am very disturbed by their encouragement for someone else 
to go ahead and raise a snowflake moray in a 40 gallon tank. My 
concern is for the fish, not the pocketbooks of these people. I ask 
if you would please take a few minutes of your time and reply to my 
email with a quote I can offer at the forum, on behalf of the well 
being of this fish. I work very hard to prevent cruelty to all 
animals, especially fish/aquatic species, and I know that a letter 
from you would be enough to convince these people that what they are 
about to do is just not practical or safe for the animal.

I thank you greatly, in advance, for any assistance you are able to 
offer. I look forward to your quick reply. 

Sincerely,
Dawn Moneyhan" _

The reply:

_"Dear Dawn,

I believe something might have been mixed up here. I have had a look at 
the Coral magazine article (German original versions, I have not seen 
any English version so far) and have found no note on 40 gallons. But 
I've also written a small book on morays for the same publisher, and 
noted there that small specimens should be kept in a minimum tank size 
of 40 gallons. This refers to the pencil-like or even smaller specimens 
you can find in the stores frequently. For larger specimens over 1-1.5 
foot a minimum tank size of 80 gallons is recommended by me, which 
refers - like all minimum tank sizes I note - to keeping just a single 
specimen (of course no other fish) and being able to provide an adequate 
water quality by sufficient filtration methods.

I know a lot of controversity about minimum tank sizes of moray eels 
exists. My own recommendations are not based on a public opinion, but on 
observations of their lifestyle in nature, not only by me, but mostly by 
a number of scientists, that published numerous articles in various 
science journals. They are also based on my own experiences with a 
number of morays from keeping them at home and in trade for many years, 
as well as monitoring filtration methods and their results. A moray eel 
needs a safe cave system (PVC pipes, rocks, clean bottles etc.) where it 
spends most of its time. You cannot place a cave system of adequate size 
for an adult Echidna nebulosa in a 40 gallon tank. This is the reason 
for exclusion of 40 gallons as a minimum tank size for this species to 
me, not only water quality, which you might be able to keep spotless 
with adequate techniques.

My recommendations on feeding are based on what was found in moray eel 
stomachs in nature, and their growth which can be determined by 
examinations of the otoliths. I believe that many eels in captivity are 
overfed to keep them from eating inadequate tank mates. Such a diet can 
result in health problems and too fast, partly irregular growth (also 
compare to Purser's moray eel book). Even when feeding similar amounts 
as they catch in nature, I believe most juvenile Echidna nebulosa 
specimens will have grown out the 40 gallon tank in 2.5 years or less.

I hope this helps to clarify my opinion. Feel free to write back if you 
wish to discuss this further. Would it be possible to send me a link to 
the forum where such topics are found?

Kind regards,

Marco._"

I think it important to let everyone know, in my reply to Dr. Lichtenberger
I have included a link to this forum and to this thread, and welcomed him to 
contribute anytime he is willing. Having him here would be a wonderful asset
to this forum if he is willing to come.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Dawn, thank you for taking the the time to do this. I find a lot of time we are at a cross roads on this forum. We are faced with moral issues of keeping fish in captivity and providing for their needs, and with what is practical and reasonable for the home aquarist. 

I know that often we (aka "the internet experts behind the mighty computer screen") advise people to not buy a particular fish because it has needs that the fishkeeper will not be able to provide. We do this based on the moral standard that many fish should probably not be collected to begin with, and we hope that eventually the LFS will stop ordering the fish and the collectors will stop collecting them. I personally believe that this approach is similar to telling your bank that you do not want a credit card and hoping they eventually stop offering credit cards. The hobby is far to large for us to impact what fish are collected and then sold at an LFS. 

I personally take a different approach. Rather than discourage someone to keep a fish because they do not have all the perfect tools for its care, I prefer to explain the challenges and care needs. I sincerely believe that most people who reach out for help and go to the trouble of learning how to take care of an animal will then upgrade their level of care in the future when the needs arise. I would much prefer to see a fish in the hands of a caring fishkeeper, than in the hands of the average customer at an LFS. 

All of these comments above have led to a slightly different approach that many members may have seen from me over the last several weeks. I have suggested to a member that keeping a Hippo Tang in a 65 gallon tank may be a reasonable option, so long as they understand their growth needs. This is clearly a crazy stretch, given that the fish reaches 14'' in adult length and probably "needs" 220 gallons or more to live a normal life. But the truth is these fish will never live a "normal" life. We are participating in a hobby which guarantees this. 

I believe it is best to get these fish in the hands of people who care, arm them with information, and if the worst thing that happens is they are kept in systems which are smaller than the ideal, then this is much better than being sold to the typical customer who will put a Snowflake Moray in a 75 gallon tank with a couple of Trigger Fish, Lion Fish, and Porcupine Puffer. 

I do not believe Cody was at all out of line in his recommendation on this thread. I believe Cody is a caring fishkeeper who has a similar moral code to myself. I do not believe Cody was far out of line in his original response to be approached with the tone that was taken in response to his advise. This is what inspired my inclusion on this thread.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Pasfur,

While I greatly respect your hope in people where animal care is concerned, please understand that what motivates me to discourage some things is more the well being of the animals. When someone states that they can afford to do this or that, but beyond that is not practical or expected... then I feel it my responsibility to the animals to discourage what is impractical and in many cases, impossible. 

Your example of the hippo tang is a very good one to use. When someone tells me they have a 65 gallon tank and desire a hippo tang, my next question is always the same... "when do you expect to be able to upgrade and how big can you afford to go?" If what they offer is still unsuitable for keeping that animal, I discourage it and if possible, offer alternative choices. 

Rather than hoping and wishing for the best, I face the reality that many of these animals simply suffer and die because the person who purchased them for an improper environment simply can't afford the level of care or space needs that are needed for survival. That is another reason why so many species of fish are left as homeless once they reach adulthood... and find their ways into our local rivers, streams, lakes, etc. where they destroy/invade a natural habitat, where they don't belong in the first place. This often leads to a ban on the keeping of these animals by anyone. The state of Florida is a good example, the keeping of snakeheads anywhere in the US is another. The few who act responsibly are left then to suffer the consequences because of those who do not. 

I call it responsible fish keeping, but this applies to all pets. I would no sooner encourage someone to purchase a horse if that person lived in an apartment building without a barn and couldn't afford oats, hay, etc... unless there was some indication that they were expecting to provide for this animals needs for a full and healthy life, long term. I would instead be suggesting they seek out an animal better suited to what they can afford and provide for. Human greed is not an acceptable excuse for abuse, neglect, or inhumane conditions for an innocent animal. 

Please do not assume where I am concerned. I do not expect that just because I warn against the keeping of some animals that they will disappear from the industry completely, at any point. I am real and practical enough to know it isn't that simple. But, what I do know, from first hand experience, is that when the needs of the animals are approached as most important, many animals that would otherwise not be accommodated, can often be accommodated if the specifics are mapped out and care is taken in suggesting who should be keeping any of various animals. These animals are then also more inclined to be purchased by those who can already accommodate their needs, which may not result in their disappearance from the hobby, but it can slow down the rate of neglect and abuse, and death rates.

Being practical and honest about the situation, it is clear that most people do not go into this hobby with the intent of causing harm to these animals. It is also very clear that many people are sold inappropriate animals for their situations, which gathers expenses that are impossible to meet in so many situations, and also gathers frustration that they are now attached to an animal that they can no longer provide for. Their end choice is either to find a suitable home for this animal, which isn't always possible or practical, or the animals suffer, become sick, and eventually die needlessly. That tends to include expensive and sometimes dangerous medications be administered without proper professional guidance, adding to suffering and expense. 

While our overall goals may be similar, our methods are obviously very different. For me to suggest that it is ok to put a snowflake eel into a 40 gallon tank for any length of time would be my idea of promoting the abuse of that animal, and thus would leave me feeling responsible for an ugly outcome, either for the fish keeper, the animal, or both. 

I find it my responsibility as a human being to work within a basic moral standard to see that all pets, fish or otherwise, if considered for purchase, and questions are put to me as to what I think of it... I have to be honest and consider the health and well being of the animal long term. I also have to consider what the keeping of this animal is going to bring to the person who has so much time, money, and effort invested. 

Ask yourself, if you continuously approached a situation such as with this eel, in the same regard... and the people who are asking for your opinion are going ahead with putting this eel into a 40 gallon tank, the outcome can be no more than destructive... how does that really help anyone? When someone else reads that it is ok to do this... figures they have all of the needed info, and then do it for themselves with a disasterous outcome, how has that helped anyone? The way I see it, all that has done is to misinform people, which causes innocent animals to suffer further at the hands of unknowing people. With that type of approach, the problems in this hobby will only continue to worsen as time goes on. With that type of approach, there is no hope of positive change.

Let me ask you... how would you respond to someone asking about keeping a leopard shark in a 30 gallon tank? Then let me ask... what is the difference?

I hope you are able to see my point, and I hope that this brings a bit more clear understanding between us in the future. Please always remember that all too often, the worst of things happen with the best of intentions. Assumptions are dangerous and should be avoided whenever possible.

I did not mind writing to the good Dr. He is a very kind and incredibly smart and experienced individual. I have a great deal of respect for him and his work. I am enjoying our continued emails and what appears to be a newly developing friendship. For that I must thank you and Cody, for the inspiration in my contacting him in the first place. In the past 48 hrs I have learned even more about snowflake moray eels, as has the good Dr, through our shared information and experiences. 

Education is so important! Passifying someone's personal and sometimes selfish desires comes at a very high price to many more than most people would ever imagine. I will continue to do what I see as right, moral, and responsible when I offer suggestions and advice, even if it isn't always what someone really wants to hear. There is something to be said about honesty.


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## terryap (Sep 22, 2009)

Just so I am reading this post correctly:

_ I believe most juvenile Echidna nebulosa 
specimens will have grown out the 40 gallon tank in 2.5 years or less.
_
so if he decides to keep this specimen, and upgrade to a bigger tank size...say in a year, it would be ok then? as the above statement suggests it will outgrow the 40 gallon in approx.2.5 years? am I reading it correctly?

From reading the above from Dr. Litchenberger, what I am understanding is, as a young eel 40 gallon is ok for a start, assuming you will upgrade within 2.5 years?

the above article is referring to an adult size eel is not appropriate for a 40 gallon but that a young and smaller specimen would be ok, as long as you are planning an upgrade in the 2.5 years to come...., sorry I don't have that much experience, but in reading the above article, this is the message I would understand.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

terryap said:


> Just so I am reading this post correctly:
> 
> _ I believe most juvenile Echidna nebulosa
> specimens will have grown out the 40 gallon tank in 2.5 years or less.
> ...


Yes, this is correct TerryAnn. I think the point Dawn (BettaBaby) is making is that further questioning of the individual prior to the purchase, ensuring that the individual has plans in the future for an aquarium large enough to take care of the animal, should take priority. I understand this point of view. 

I have also think the definition of success is up for debate. I look at examples of what I consider success, such as Austin's 75 gallon reef with a Hippo Tang that is thriving, and I think we are often far to conservative in our recommendations. I think it is a delicate balance between putting fish in the hands of qualified intelligent individuals, versus the long term needs a fish may have to live out its full life span.

Dawn and I will agree to disagree on this point, as there is really no method of judging this situation outside of ones moral standards.


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## terryap (Sep 22, 2009)

ok thanks, so if I am to understand...,once again....If my intention is keeping a snowflake eel ( while juvenile) in a 40 gallon tank, and then planning to upgrade to let's say 150 gallon within the next 2 years..,this would then be ok?

WELL, what if between now and 2 years, my circumstances change and I cannot affor a 150 gallon anymore?
I don't think this would make me an unresponsible fishkeeper?

if my intentions from the beginning sound reasonable, and then circumstances change and I cannot fulfill my intentions...does this make me a poor fish keeper??

I am only asking because we all know in real life, NOTHING is for sure, I am planning on stocking a 65 gallon...and YES with a hippo tang, and YES my intentions are to upgrade within the next year to year and a half to at least a 125 gallon, but if my personal circumstances change within this time period....{edit by moderator} but I don't think this would make me a poor fishkeeper so to say, or anyone else for that matter with proper intentions.....

am I wrong for thinking this way?


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

I don't think it makes you irresponsible at all. I do think that as hobbyists we need to do our best to prepare for the long term. But as you mention,sometimes the long term changes.

{By the way, as a moderator I had to remove a portion of your post. Any reference to inappropriate language, even in good fun, is against the rules.}


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

In answer to what if circumstances change...

I guess defining who is and who isn't a responsible fish keeper at that point would depend on how the situation is handled. Is the fish forced to live in unhealthy conditions because of these circumstances or is it found a new home with appropriate conditions?

In regards to the hippo tang in a 65 gallon tank... the same thing applies. When that fish outgrows the 65 gallon tank, what is then done about it? If someone shrugs and says "oh well, it happens" and leaves that fish there to die... then yes, I would have to call that an irresponsible fish keeper. If that animal is instead found proper conditions somewhere else... I would call that a responsible fish keeper.

I understand that circumstances change. When I help someone in stocking a tank I will typically suggest that the animals going in should not have to outgrow their current conditions. Preparing for the animal's full size is part of proper care, and makes the most sense. It is quite often that I run across someone who wishes to start a very large fish out in a very small tank, and then chooses to upgrade as the animal grows. I often wonder at this, because most of these situations cost a tremendous amount more in money than has to be. 

If a fish needs a 75 gallon tank to accommodate its adult size, and is put into a 10 gallon tank as a baby and waits to grow into a larger tank... 6 - 8 months later it needs a larger tank, so a 30 gallon is purchased... and then a yr later it outgrows the 30 gallon so a 55 gallon is purchased... and on up to the 75... consider the expense involved in purchasing each of those tanks with the needed equipment to run them properly. Then take a look at the expense of starting with the 75 gallon tank and its equipment, a 1 time only purchase and the fish grows into its environment. To me that doesn't even make much sense. Unless someone is looking for an excuse to buy all of those extra tanks and equipment, has plenty of money for it... it would seem to be an awful waste of money and very risky to come up with that amount of money so many times. 

When we figure out tank sizes for fish in the freshwater side of the hobby, we advise people to calculate adult fish size when populating their tanks. Why, then, would we do differently for saltwater? The reason behind it is still the same concept/principal.


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

Pasfur said:


> I do not believe Cody was at all out of line in his recommendation on this thread. I believe Cody is a caring fishkeeper who has a similar moral code to myself. I do not believe Cody was far out of line in his original response to be approached with the tone that was taken in response to his advise. This is what inspired my inclusion on this thread.


 Pasfur, I'll be a little blunt on this. You do have to realize your judgment based on what Cody recommended for snowflake morays is not shared by some people who are after the welfare of the fish, not merely what you considered a challenge attempting to keep a fish successfully regardless of the conditions provided to them, whether it will cause them sufferings or not. You have to realize that the advice pasted here by Dawn and written by Dr. Lichtenberger himself has more merits than advice from another person who may have never kept the particular fish before. If I were to choose whom to believe, I'd believe someone with first-hand experience, a scientist with PhD and who has studied eels immensely even writing a book about them than someone who just assumes keeping them in cramped quarters without reasonably considering the adult size is okay.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Lupin said:


> You have to realize that the advice pasted here by Dawn and written by Dr. Lichtenberger himself has more merits than advice from another person who may have never kept the particular fish before. If I were to choose whom to believe, I'd believe someone with first-hand experience, a scientist with PhD and who has studied eels immensely even writing a book about them .


Without question you would. There is no debate that a Snowflake Moray, or almost any fish which grows to a considerable size, would benefit from a larger sized aquarium and be more likely to live out a more natural lifespan. This is not at all the point I am trying to make. As I have this discussion I realize the difficulty in communicating the written word, so let me give an other example.

Take a Niger Trigger for example. Lets consider any random Niger Trigger for sale today at an LFS. This particular fish has already been collected and is going to be sold to an at home fishkeeper. This fish has, for all practical purposes, a zero percent chance of being purchased by a zoo or public aquarium. In my view, the question for this fish is not what the ideal conditions are. The question is a matter of what is the best option that this fish currently has available. 

In this particular situation, there are only a select number of customers who are available to purchase this fish. Of these, we can make some educated guess as to the sizes of the tanks that the public has, based on experience. Lets be bold and say that 500 customers will come into the LFS each week with fish only systems to consider a purchase of marine fish. I would suspect the breakdown of tank sizes to be something like this:

125 people with aquariums under 55 gallons.
250 people with aquariums between 55 and 90 gallons.
110 people with aquariums of 125 to 180 gallons.
14 people with aquariums of 220 to 280 gallons.
1 person with an aquarium larger than 280 gallons.

I think these numbers are being extremely generous. This assumes the LFS is open 12 hours per day and averages 1 saltwater customer per 5 minutes, which is almost never the case in a typical LFS. These numbers could be reduced by 50-75% in many LFS across the country.

Anyhow, my point is that there are not many options for the specific fish that are being sold. Our Niger Trigger has only 15 customers with the ability to maintain this fish in captivity long term, based on their current tank sizes. Of these 15, we have to realize that only a couple may even be interested in keeping a Niger Trigger, and hopefully they have not already purchased a Niger Trigger in the past.

In the real world that we live in, we are hoping that someone with a 125 to 180 gallon tank purchases this fish. But our odds are still slim. In the real world, the world that the hobby lives in every day, the majority of Niger Triggers are going to be placed into aquariums of 55 to 90 gallons in size. 

Again, my point behind this long post is that we live in the real world. We live in a world where Steve Austin has a Hippo Tang in his 75 gallon tank. I would challenge anyone to suggest that this individual fish, this specific Hippo Tang, could have had a better option. If you were a fish, if you were this exact fish, this Hippo Tang that Steve purchased, what tank would you want to live in? I would choose that 75 gallon tank of Steve's any day of the week, regardless of the long term consequences, because I know that "long term" rarely happens in this hobby. Most fish don't make it past 2 years in the hands of their fishkeeper, and if that Hippo Tang lives a short life span of 7 years in Steve Austin's tank, then I think that Hippo Tang had a nice long life in captivity. Because the public aquariums and zoos are no knocking on the door of the LFS to purchase that fish and place it in a 400 gallon tank.


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

i just want to throwout there the responsibility behind the tank owner. if you stop buying them, they'll stop supplying them.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

onefish2fish said:


> i just want to throwout there the responsibility behind the tank owner. if you stop buying them, they'll stop supplying them.


I guess this is the basic idea that I don't really agree with. I don't think it is possible, given the size of this hobby, for any of us to impact what species are offered for sale. If an LFS stocks a fish, then SOMEBODY out there is going to buy it. 

The real solution to this entire conversation would be to start a mass movement of serious hobbyists who are vocal and refuse to do business with LFS that stock these animals. But at present time, I don't know that the mass market can be influenced to avoid buying these fish.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Pasfur,

Maybe something that would help you to understand better would be to let you know that each lfs is different, and their local customers control the supply/demand where anything is concerned in their area. I have attempted to explain this a number of times in the past, but I don't currently have those links on hand, so let me try again. 

Having worked in the retail lfs industry for more than 20 yrs now, and in various locations, I can assure you that this does indeed apply. When a store buys anything, be it livestock, dry goods, etc. if there is not enough demand to move those items from the store quickly to make a fair enough profit from it, the store has to assume the support of the animals and supply tank space, and also shelf space for products. The longer anything is in the store the less money the store makes on it. In order to survive, the store must then cater to the needs of its customers. 

For example, if a lfs in a small town caters primarily to customers who own smaller tanks, they would then primarily stock smaller fish appropriate for those customer's needs and leave other fish as special order only. There are lfs's here local to me who can order nearly any type of fish desired... but they do not have the space or the right type of clientel to keep those types of animals in the store to just sell to whoever walks through the door. 

A successful lfs has to be practical about what it is able to sell at any given time, otherwise they run themselves out of business. The store I mention does not stock anything other than a few clown fish and a few types of damsels at any given time, along with maybe a few various types of inverts... and when those animals finally leave the store, then the store orders more, taking into account what has been requested by their customers.

That is normal practice for a lfs regardless of where it is located, as space is always limited. If a store were to purchase a hippo tang and that fish didn't sell for 6 months, the store would be responsible for keeping that animal alive and thriving until it sells... otherwise the money they spent to purchase it in the first place is lost, as is all of the money spent to keep it alive and thriving during that 6 months. That is space and money that could have instead been used for something like clown fish, which would sell much faster and easier. There are many stores that do not stock those animals, ever... they are provided by special order only, at the request of a customer who can afford to buy it and keep it long term.

While there are "bad" stores out there, more so than there are good ones... it is still a basic business practice if they wish to stay in business.

So, if, as suggested, customers only purchase what they can safely accommodate, the stores must cater to those needs to keep their doors open, and thus the customers do greatly control the stock in any lfs.

The same principal applies with stores who sell sick animals. If customers demand healthy animals and refuse to purchase sick animals, the store has no choice but to either offer healthy animals, stop stocking/providing those animals, or lose their money on the sick ones... which in turn means they would stop offering them if they lose money on them repeatedly. Otherwise they are simply wasting their own money, making no profit, and have no way to continue their business. 

The aquarium hobby is more dictated by the customers than by anyone else. If a store stops offering specific species for sale because of lack of popularity with the customers, for whatever reason, that means the wholesalers must cater to what the lfs's will actually purchase from them, or they themselves would make no money. Think about it for a minute... if the the wholesaler for a local area buys hippo tangs from the collectors, yet none of the lfs's in that area have a market for hippo tangs... the lfs's are not buying them... why then would a wholesaler continue to purchase them from the collectors? When the demand from the collectors changes, what they collect will also change. Collectors are very limited on what they are allowed to take from any given location, and they are limited on how many they can collect during a given year. It would make no sense for them to collect a lot of something that won't sell easily, when instead they could decrease the collections of a given species and fill the gap with something else that will sell easily. The whole thing is a chain reaction. 

While 1 person in a local area may not directly impact the entire industry on a whole, they can impact their local area, which does affect the industry on a whole to some degree. This is true of any retail industry and why small retail stores such as lfs's and clothing stores, and trinket shops, craft stores, etc. are continuously going out of business and then new ones are popping up here and there, or the stores are moving to different areas to cater to customers who actually want what they have to offer. The entire retail market is dictated by the customer. 

Our country is in a lot of financial trouble at this point today, and the government is telling people to spend money in retail stores to boost sales and keep these stores open, which keeps jobs for the people who work in them. When the customers have no money to spend in these stores, the stores are then forced to close, and the unemployment rate rises further because those jobs are lost. That is how the retail industry works.

Wholesalers provide the products for retail stores. When the retail stores close due to lack of business, then the wholesalers are in trouble because they have no outlet for their products. The car industry is a very good example of this. When not enough people purchase a specific type of car, the companies eventually slow down production and/or stop making those cars because it costs money to make something that nobody is buying. 

I don't know how else to explain this to you. It is a basic principal of retail, regardless of what industry we speak of. The only other way I can think of for you to understand is to visit your lfs, wander through the tanks and find a species you don't see there for sale, and don't remember seeing there for at least a long period of time. Ask them why they don't have any of that animal available anymore, and let them explain to you that they didn't have enough demand for that animal to warrant stocking it continuously. At that point they may offer to order it for you special if it is something you truly desire, or they may go on to explain to you that the wholesalers they deal with do not offer it to them, which would be for the same reason.. not enough demand to warrant stocking it. You know enough different species of fish that I am sure you would have no problem walking through their tanks and finding something they don't have, something that doesn't have a name listed on an empty tank because it has sold out for that given week. Try asking them for a baby squid for your tank... or a green moray eel, or a black tip reef shark. Those animals are readily available in the retail market via collectors and some wholesalers... but the lfs doesn't stock them. Ask yourself why... or ask them why. It is all based on supply/demand.

I hope this has helped to clarify this for you, I have tried my best.


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## terryap (Sep 22, 2009)

and again, being in the "real world" this isn't going to happen, the only place this would happen IMO, is in the makebelief fishkeeper world.....there will always be people buying the fish that are supplied, regardless of voiced opinions or not. there are a ton of websites stating that it is no problem to house a tang, or similar fish, in a 70 gallon or even smaller , take live aquaria for example which suggests the blue tang is an appropriate beginner fish and fine for a 70 gallon, there are millions who visit this website, I have seen it mentioned in multiple forums.....not everyone joins a forum to get their information, there are plenty of books and sites to describe the needs of these fish and I am sure not ALL of them are wrong, they simply suggest the basic needs of different fish species.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

I thought of another good example to offer you and wanted to add it here.

The sale of Oceanic tanks. Oceanic has now stopped making all bowfront, tech series, illuminata, and ultimate tanks. Those are tanks that a few years ago were found everywhere you went. Customers have stopped purchasing enough of them now that the company can no longer warrant the making of them, it is too costly. That doesn't mean everyone has stopped buying them, or stopped wanting them... but not enough of them sell to warrant the continued making of them... so the company has stopped them completely. This is first hand information that I received from my husband who works there. Once the stores sell what remains of the tanks already in their stock, thats it... they can't order them, can't get them because these tanks are no longer being created. If someone were to call the company and try to special order one of these tanks, they would be told thats not an option because the company no longer orders the supplies to make them... all that glass is ordered in bulk. The company cannot order a bulk shipment to create 1 tank, nor do they have the space available to stock/store all of that glass for the 1 or 2 people in a year who special order one. That is space they could be using for something else that makes money now... to keep the company in business. 
Supply/demand... it controls everything.


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## terryap (Sep 22, 2009)

This is normal for material items, they sell big for a limited time, and if there are too many problems with them people stop buying, I am assuming the tank you are mentioning above had "deffects" which is the reason people stopped buying them, but when you are talking about livestock, and not just fish...this is a totally different ballgame, I know this is offtopic, BUT, how many bad reviews do Pitbulls get?? millions....and as far as I know, people have not stopped breeding them or even slowed down, despite the fact that they are illegal is many cities....many people have these dogs and they are great pets, it's all in personal opinion and actual experience for people who have owned them who can give an honest opinion.
the point being is that popular fish such as hippo tangs or snowflake eels, butterfly's, angels and others, will always be in demand, so what is hoped for is the best possible care they will get once bought.
let's be honest here, none of these fish.... once plucked from the ocean will ever have a normal natural life.
Please don't take me the wrong way, I am not trying to argue with you, but, I do strongly believe that these fish are better off in the hands of someone who will do their absolute best to try and accomodate these fish rather than in the hands of ALL LFS, as most of the ones I have seen (in Canada anyways) house these fish in very small aquariums, and they ALL sell and very quickly.
I'd also like to mention about the comment about listening to someone who has a PHD, again, just because you have a degree does not make your opinion right all of the time, I think most of us have had experiences with doctors who DO NOT give the right information or diagnosis or medication all of the time..., at least I know I have had my share of wrong information given by very qualified persons, it is impossible for someone to be "right" all of the time.......


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Terry,
Let me be sure I am understanding you correctly. What you are saying, essentially, is that if I live in a small apartment and buy a pitt bull puppy and small crate, which has plenty of space in the apartment, with plans to buy a large house which would accommodate a larger crate for the adult dog... but then I lose my job and can't move... its ok to keep that adult dog in a puppy size crate? 

And the puppy size crate is ok because others told me it was better that I do this and love the dog and have good intentions, than to risk someone else buying that puppy where it may have been abused worse? 

And all of this happens because nobody told me that a pitt puppy would not do well in a small crate long term, or neglected to offer me better breed options? All of this because someone who knew how large this puppy would get didn't simply tell me no... 

Is that correct? 

That is essentially the same situation that we are talking about, only now its a dog instead of a fish. The other difference is that the laws protect dogs from this sort of thing, and were I caught doing such a thing to a dog of any breed, I would likely go to jail. So its ok to do this to a fish because the laws won't send me to jail for it...?


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

terryap said:


> I'd also like to mention about the comment about listening to someone who has a PHD, again, just because you have a degree does not make your opinion right all of the time, I think most of us have had experiences with doctors who DO NOT give the right information or diagnosis or medication all of the time..., at least I know I have had my share of wrong information given by very qualified persons, it is impossible for someone to be "right" all of the time.......


I never implied all opinions stated by someone with a degree will always be right nor is it possible to be always right.:wink2: Reread my post. Rather than believing someone who simply assumes keeping a fish in a particularly cramped quarters is all right, I choose to believe someone who actually has experience and studied immensely the fish. There is a big difference in how you understood my post than what I was trying to convey across.

This is _deja vu_ all over again. Bottom line, the primary concern here is how a fish is properly accommodated.


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## terryap (Sep 22, 2009)

I agree, no offense to your post, just trying to get some points across, I just think there are many different opinions out there, depending on who you talk to or what you read about different successes.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

terryap said:


> I'd also like to mention about the comment about listening to someone who has a PHD, again, just because you have a degree does not make your opinion right all of the time, I think most of us have had experiences with doctors who DO NOT give the right information or diagnosis or medication all of the time..., at least I know I have had my share of wrong information given by very qualified persons, it is impossible for someone to be "right" all of the time.......


Let me speak on behalf of Terry and say that she did not mean this comment in a degrading way. I think the point being made is that this is more of a moral discussion, as opposed to a discussion impacted by ones experience or degree.

Let me speak on behalf of Dawn, when Dawn says "I don't know how else to explain this to you. It is a basic principal of retail, regardless of what industry we speak of." she is not being degrading to me. Dawn and I have mutual respect and would not insult each other with any intention. Dawn is just communicating with enthusiasm.

Dawn, I think what is missing from your explanation of supply and demand is how demand is created. Demand is created with advertising, salesmanship, and display, and impacted greatly by the emotions of the consumer. Fish which sit for long periods are the LFS are fish that lack color, hide a lot, or are over priced for the demographics. Fish which are colorful, such as a Hippo Tang, almost never have difficulty in being sold. Despite the success of the internet, most people rely on their LFS as their sole source of information. The ones that do turn to the internet quickly find websites that make recommendations on tank sizes for given livestock.

I think Terrys reference to a Pitt Bull is perfect. There are examples all over the pet industry of these types of standards. Finch are kept in small bird cages. Snakes are another example, especially large Boas. What about your typical Macaw, which not only has little room to spread its wings, but will form an emotional bond to its owner than then outlive them by 30 to 50 years. I do not understand why the moral debate in the fish hobby receives such great emotions.


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## wake49 (Jul 2, 2008)

This is a tough debate. My LFS (and local is a 40 minute drive...) is pretty good about being knowledgable and fair to his animals. That being said, I saw one of his workers scoop a dead anemone out of one of the large reef tanks yesterday. I work in retail lumber & millwork sales and customers (more likely than not) will not take my advice. If I tell them they need a certain window to meet escape egress, and they can only fit a smaller window, they give the reasoning: "what the Inspector doesn't know..."

My point is just as Terry said, the responsible fishkeepers are on this forum, or any forum, and we don't make up the entire population. Even I took my LFS's advice and put a Hippo in a 46 gallon tank, only to find that was way too small...so I upgraded to a 150. Still might be too small, but I ran out of room (my wife gave me 6 feet x 24 inches to work with). 

My wife is a very responsible animal activist...we have two rescue dogs that she centered us buying our home around, complete with fenced in yard and quiet neighborhood for walks. She recently alienated her Best Friend because of the way they treat their dog (keep it crated all day, haven't gotten her spayed yet). She will tell people off if they buy dogs from breeders or pet stores. She sounds like Bob Barker some days, "remember to spay or neuter your pets!" When Michael Vick signed with the Philedaphia Eagles, my wife wanted to ban Dunkin Donuts, because they were a corporate sponsor. Do you think that Dunkin felt that impact? I doubt it. They still sold coffee and Vick still signed with the Eagles. The efforts of a few are always outweighed by the ways of the many.

Back to my LFS. A lot of what he buys is stuff that will attract customers to look. He'll have Naso Tangs and Achilles Tangs, while the average fishkeeper in my area is 29 gallon-90 gallon tanks. And I know that he'll tell someone that 90 is fine for a Naso tang. And at the size they are now, maybe that's true. Maybe for a little while, until with one whip of its tail the tang is already across the tank. But he has stock that he has to sell. If he sells someone a Tang and it passes on due to inexperienced fishkeeping, he sells another one. I know that it sounds barbaric, but the LFS owner needs to feed his kids, and keep his business moving along.

This brings me to the responsible fishkeeper. I now make sure that I am providing the correct enviroment for my fish and inverts. I learned that here. My LFS has personally told me that forums are too opinionated and often give false info. I know that when my friend bought two seahorses and I told him they wouldn't last a week, the LFS told him these were the "hardiest seahorses he has ever seen. Eating like crazy." They died two weeks later. I tell my friend that a Tomini and a Kole won't survive in a 75 together, and low-and-behold, they fought until they were too stressed to live. My LFS told me that a Desjardini and a Purple would get along fine in my tank. I am not going to try.

There will always be irresponsible Fishkeepers, Dog owners (Vick), Cat owners that keep way too many cats to feed, Reptile keepers...etc. Mark and Terry are right. Some people just want what they want. In a perfect world, everyone would stop buying Moorish Idols (for example). But people LOVE the way these fish look, and as a centerpiece to their aquarium, will take the risk of them not surviving. Tons of Fish every year are flushed because owners aren't properly educating themselves before purchasing them. 

But if I don't buy that Achilles, that is one less that is taken out of the Ocean to replace it.


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## onefish2fish (Jul 22, 2008)

the shame of the game is, we do it to ourselves. this is where i disagree with everyone who believes 1 person cant make a difference. it has to start somewhere, and it has to start with 1 person. correct, we most likely wont be able to keep every un-educated fish keeper from buying marlins for their 5 gallon tanks but if enough of us start educating ourselves and talking with others thats the best we can do. just like you cant take all the bad drivers off the road, im sure it doesnt stop you from driving to work. 

now put it in this perspective. fish die by the thousands in just poor collecting techniques. if the fish stores arnt importing as much the demand wont be as high. if we are able to save 2 fish out of those thousands that leads a chance for those 2 to breed producing another few hundred. i know im guilty of killing atleast 2 fish, so if we educate, stop buying livestock that you know wont work for our tanks and until we all make an honest attempt we wont know what will change.
we can start by cutting back on poluting. this ties back in with my opening sentence, "we do it to ourselves,"
heres the shame of the game,
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6652866.ecehttp://www.enn.com/top_stories/article/40175


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

Onefish, the article you linked to points to the year 2030 as the year of extinction for our coral reefs. Very recently I read an article where scientific experts predict by the year 2030 our oceans will have been completley depleted of food fish with no hope of recovery if something isn't done *today*. :-(

America's Oceans in Crisis (ActionBioscience)


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Pasfur, thank you for clearing the air with anyone who may not understand our "unique friendship and mutual respect" for each other. Of all things debated here, I don't want anyone to think I am bashing or insulting anyone on purpose. If it happens, I apologize to anyone, that is not ever my intent.

Its a scary world out there, in many respects. Onefish2fish says it very well, and I thank you greatly for your recognition that 1 person CAN make a difference, somewhere. Any change that happens in our world, it all starts with 1 person, 1 idea, 1 goal. It may not always turn out the way we'd like, or that 1 person intended, but change always starts with 1. I like to believe I help by being 1 of those people, and I hope I am able to inspire others along the way.

The real world has shown us all that many things need to change for the simple survival of our planet and everything that exists here. This is but 1 change on that long list, and its a change we can all contribute to. 

We are all familiar with fads... how quickly they start and change. I see this as a fad, as I have seen over the yrs how aquarium pets have changed in popularity. When the Nemo movie came out, there was a clown fish and anemone fad. When Shark Tales came out in theaters, there was a shark fad. Why then can't we start another fad when it comes to protecting our planet and the animals on it? One person can make that kind of difference, all it takes is the support of others to really catch on.

I recently made a phone call to the owner of the company that produces the "fish toilet". Not sure if anyone here has seen those online yet... but I called and asked this guy some very pointed questions, until he admitted he knows very little about any species of fish. I told him "shame on you" and asked how he felt knowing now that he was promoting the abuse of animals with his advertising of his invention, all so he could line his own pockets. It was a very interesting discussion, and in the end, he finally agreed I had some valid points and he was willing to consider some changes. He even asked me for some suggestions on how to improve the situation that I pointed out to him, to which I freely offered a few. That is 1 person making a difference. I maybe have not saved all goldfish from his toilet tanks, but I have saved a few. I slept better after that night, knowing that its an uphill battle but I was able to advance 1 step closer to the goal.

All I am asking for others to consider is that each of us can be that 1 person who makes 1 difference somewhere, and together that adds up to the many that are presently seen as undefeatable. There is power in numbers, nobody here has denied that. That tells me that at least the thousands of people on this forum offer a beginning... and if each of the thousands here can reach 1 or 2 others... that is another step. 

I am very passionate about this topic, and I ask forgiveness from those who don't understand that passion. I cannot change who I am, how I feel, or why I feel the way I do. All I can do is try to open the door of understanding to others and hope that along the way someone else will either step up and help, in their own way... or walk through that door with me and actively help in the battle to save helpless animals as often as possible.

My friends continuously remind me that I can't save them all. I know thats a reality I can't beat, but like I respond to them... "I can at least die trying, and in the process, save as many as possible." That is my overall goal... to save as many as possible and encourage others to use what power they have to do the same thing.

As Onefish2fish said.. each one we don't buy is 1 less they take from the wild to replace it.


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## wake49 (Jul 2, 2008)

That is a shame. I do believe that one person can make a difference. I just don't believe that difference is strong enough too offset the millions that don't know or don't care to know. The groups like PETA, CALA and the like have slowed the proccess, but many view them as extremists. Last year they wanted Fish to be renamed Sea Kittens; they said it was a cuter name, and people wouldn't want to eat them. Even my activist Wife laughed at that. It's hard to take a group like that serious. 

We are the problem. We will drive one species after another into extinction, and when we aren't sastified killing species, we'll kill ecosystems. Pretty soon there will be another Ice Age or Giant Metoer or the Sun will explode and this will all start again. I know, dismal.

I wish that I made enough of a difference myself by not littering and making responsible fish choices and saving homeless pets. But the truth of it is that having an aquarium is a very selfish act of mine. If I didn't have the aquarium, then that's $10,000 the industry wouldn't have seen. It's not like this is Fish Rescue. I pay for these fish, corals and inverts. I supply the corporate with profits. At least with my pups, I just saved a stray mutt that would've been put down otherwise. Nobody profited from that but the mutt.

This might sound ridiculous to say on a fish only forum, but if we want to stop coral and fish collecting, we have to stop giving the industry money. Not enough of these creatures breed in captivity for us to go that route. If an owner of a LFS needs a pair of clowns, I would assume he would order a tang, a couple gobies, a few angels, some inverts to pad that order. My buying one fish may have resulted in placing a stock order. 

I know OF2F. It's sad the state of our oceans and ecosystems. I wish there was more we could, but it looks inevitible...

Hate to sound so grim...


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## terryap (Sep 22, 2009)

"Terry,
Let me be sure I am understanding you correctly. What you are saying, essentially, is that if I live in a small apartment and buy a pitt bull puppy and small crate, which has plenty of space in the apartment, with plans to buy a large house which would accommodate a larger crate for the adult dog... but then I lose my job and can't move... its ok to keep that adult dog in a puppy size crate? "

Ok please clairfy me on this, you mention a small crate in an apartment with plenty of space, being realistic once again, an adult dog should not be crated, this is ok as a puppy, for housetraining purposes, but normally once the chewing stage and housebreaking stage are over, there is no loner any need for a crate.
and do I think a dog whether big or small is good for a small apartment? again depending on the caregiver...,dog has sufficient food supply, clean water, and goes for regular walks, and gets needed attention, then absolutey do I think this dog is in good hands, small space or not.


I think we are going off topic here, and all I am saying is that, if a fishkeeper buys a fish and houses it in a smaller sized aquarium than recommended, and later upgrades to accomodate this fish, I don't see any fault at that, and yes I agree, that if circumstances change between "now and then" that there is a responsibility to act on this and any creatures needs.
I am an animal lover, and have many....my intentions are the best care I can give, and I do believe I give the best care possible within my means.
so if I were to house a tang in a 65 gallon while small and later upgrade to a larger size to accomodate, I don't see anything wrong with this, I never said, that if circumstances change and I shrugged my shoulders and said oh well, things happen, that this would be ok, of course I would either accomodate or do my best to find a proper accomodation.
All I am saying is that if I don't buy that fish in the LFS, I can guarantee you someone behind me will, with or without the proper care and space required.
Which brings me back to the original point, is that most people do have good intentions from the start, but what happens after that is what will determine whether this person is a responsible fishkeeper or not...
I do not believe in judging people until they have proved wrong is all I am saying


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## terryap (Sep 22, 2009)

Dawn,

and by the way, I hope you are in no way taking this to offense, as I do happen to think you give great advice, as I have read some of your posts and think you are highly knowledgeable...but I do feel I can express my opinions and thoughts in this forum, and again, hope you are not thinking I am trying I am trying to argue with anyone. We all have different thoughts and opinions, but I do appreciate your advice and input


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

terryap said:


> so if I were to house a tang in a 65 gallon while small and later upgrade to a larger size to accomodate, I don't see anything wrong with this


I understand the point you are making with this, but I do want to point out something for the casual reader. In the wild it has been reported that Tangs reach 70% of their adult size within 1 year. Anyone buying a Tang should carefully consider the species of Tang you are purchasing and its growth needs. This applies to any fish.

I recently considered the purchase of a Naso vlamingi for my 180. After researching its adult size and growth rate, I realized there is no possible way for me to rear this fish properly in a tank this small.


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## zeal (Nov 2, 2009)

valintini puffers are good


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