# Aquascape Idea



## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

Planning out my 125g aquascape, this is my idea so far. Please give me any ideas you may have to improve upon it, this is a first attempt at trying to make any kind of a look rather than just random placement.

For dimensions to give scale, the length is 72.5" and the width is 18.5".










The idea is the tan area will be a 'river' and the rocks will form a terrace, so the 'river' will be exiting out of a valley of sorts.

Overhead will be the floating plants indicated, going for a dense cover as I'll be keeping Angelfish in this tank. The light will be a dual T8 48" fixture. Not sure how much will make it down below so I went with mostly low light stuff.

Thoughts to improve?


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## Kim (Apr 30, 2008)

No suggestions from me....I love it!

Sounds like it will come out great. Post some pics when you set it up please


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

More Java Moss!

I would also consider some dwarf hair grass or some kind of carpet plant.

Otherwise. NICE!


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

Not sure if I would put some many swords on the left side as they can get Hugh. As just wanted to throw in I have the "same" lights over my 55 gallon tank and I can't get pygmy chain sword to go for me. Now tank is different but just thought I would throw that out there. I do think it will look good though.


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## lorax84 (Nov 3, 2010)

Even in a 125 that is way too many swords. Most sword need a good 7-10" around them to grow healthy. Other than that it looks great. As someone who has done a number of planted tanks I will say that your plan is ambitious. You may want to consider future growth when placing your pygmy chain sword and wisteria. Both grow really fast and can get out of hand quickly if you start with too many stems/plants, too close together.


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

Termato said:


> More Java Moss!
> 
> I would also consider some dwarf hair grass or some kind of carpet plant.
> 
> Otherwise. NICE!


I don't think they would do well under a cover of floating plants. They need rather bright light if i remember correctly, otherwise they just kind of sit there and do nothing instead of carpet. I will not be doing a 'high tech' setup (no CO2).

Originally that's what I wanted to use though, it's the perfect looking lawn.



Boredomb said:


> Not sure if I would put some many swords on the left side as they can get Hugh. As just wanted to throw in I have the "same" lights over my 55 gallon tank and I can't get pygmy chain sword to go for me. Now tank is different but just thought I would throw that out there. I do think it will look good though.


Really? I've heard from several people that it grows like weeds in their tanks :-( I've tried microsword in a 10g and it did absolutely nothing but grow algae on its leaves. It's still there, hasn't grown one bit in a couple of months. Thinking of trimming it to see if it does anything.



lorax84 said:


> Even in a 125 that is way too many swords. Most sword need a good 7-10" around them to grow healthy. Other than that it looks great. As someone who has done a number of planted tanks I will say that your plan is ambitious. You may want to consider future growth when placing your pygmy chain sword and wisteria. Both grow really fast and can get out of hand quickly if you start with too many stems/plants, too close together.


You sure? I have three in a 20 gallon, only for about 4 months at this point but they haven't spread out anywhere near that much. They've gotten pretty tall, but not too large in the width area.

That left area is about ~24" in length which would give each ~6" of space. But maybe just three back there and one in the center on the terrace. Until I build the hardscape, I only really have a 'ballpark' of how big each area will be.

For stem plants, I've found they don't 'bush' out if you remove the bottom portion and re-plant the tops, they just keep growing up as a single stem.

On the Pygmy Chain Sword, I'd probably only buy 1/2 or 1/3 of the indicated spots, with the expectation that over time they'd send runners out and populate all the open spaces (I would prevent them from growing in the 'river').



Thanks everyone! I appreciate the comments.


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

I was told that Pygmy chain sword did well in low setups (and it very well may). It just won't do anything for me except die. LoL Now I have Microsword that has grown and actually sent out runners but it hasn't down much lately its kinda staled out. If I was you I would still try with the exceptions it won't grow and be shocked when (if) it does.


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## redchigh (Jan 20, 2010)

my only reccomendation is to throw in a some vallisneria somewhere... more contrast would also be good-

echinodorus var 'vesuvius' = contrasting shape
Crypt Wendtii 'bronze' or 'red' = contrasting color
both do ok in low light.


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

redchigh said:


> my only reccomendation is to throw in a some vallisneria somewhere... more contrast would also be good-
> 
> echinodorus var 'vesuvius' = contrasting shape
> Crypt Wendtii 'bronze' or 'red' = contrasting color
> both do ok in low light.


Don't Vals need somewhat hard water? I have pretty soft water, around 2 dGH. I actually want a tall stringy like plant but have heard vals don't do well in soft water. I've thought about some Cryptocoryne spiralis though.


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

Geomancer said:


> Don't Vals need somewhat hard water? I have pretty soft water, around 2 dGH. I actually want a tall stringy like plant but have heard vals don't do well in soft water. I've thought about some Cryptocoryne spiralis though.


Yeah I have heard the same thing about the vals.


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## lorax84 (Nov 3, 2010)

Geomancer said:


> You sure? I have three in a 20 gallon, only for about 4 months at this point but they haven't spread out anywhere near that much. They've gotten pretty tall, but not too large in the width area.
> 
> That left area is about ~24" in length which would give each ~6" of space. But maybe just three back there and one in the center on the terrace. Until I build the hardscape, I only really have a 'ballpark' of how big each area will be.ops
> 
> ...



Sounds like you have it under control.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

Geomancer said:


> I don't think they would do well under a cover of floating plants. They need rather bright light if i remember correctly, otherwise they just kind of sit there and do nothing instead of carpet. I will not be doing a 'high tech' setup (no CO2).
> 
> Originally that's what I wanted to use though, it's the perfect looking lawn.
> 
> ...


You should get 3x the amount of Java Moss stated there. This way you can kind of fill stuff in where you need to.


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## fish monger (Dec 29, 2011)

Are you going for a Dutch Aquarium setup ?


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

fish monger said:


> Are you going for a Dutch Aquarium setup ?


What's that? Haven't heard of that before ... so I'll say no


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## lorax84 (Nov 3, 2010)

Geomancer said:


> What's that? Haven't heard of that before ... so I'll say no


There are two main styles of planted aquariums (basically) the DUtch style and the Natural (iwagumi) style. Most people tend to gravitate towards one of these two styles. Dutch is the traditional style with rows of well trimmed thick colorful plants. This is a dutch tank.

Here is a dutch tank:










The natural style (iwagumi) has become popular, especially in japan, in the last 10-15 years. It focuses on integrating plants and hardscape to create a snapshot of a natural environment in your tank.

Here is a Natural style tank:


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

The second picture must not of made it, at least I can't see it.

But I think I know what you mean. I've seen ones for example that look like a grassy hill with a very real looking tree on the top. Those are beautiful ... but they're made for the aquascape and not for actual fish. My primary concern will be the fish but I want the tank heavily planted so that they do the filtering and I never get Nitrates above 5 ppm. So I guess that means a Dutch style for me.

I wish I could have one as nice as the picture you linked, but my fish would not like that bright of a light (and I won't be using CO2).


I probably will cut down on the number of plants. The more I look at it, the more over crowded it looks.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Boredomb said:


> I was told that Pygmy chain sword did well in low setups (and it very well may). It just won't do anything for me except die. LoL Now I have Microsword that has grown and actually sent out runners but it hasn't down much lately its kinda staled out. If I was you I would still try with the exceptions it won't grow and be shocked when (if) it does.


We should explore this, as all the green-leaf swords will do fine in moderate light. But they are heavy feeders, so nutrients may be the issue. If you do want to continue this discussion, give me the water params (GH and pH), light, tank size (length and volume), and nutrient fertilization. Substrate doesn't matter but if it is an enriched one mention it as this is a nutrient source. Also your water change schedule, and if you vacuum the substrate in any way.

Byron.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Geomancer, there are two issues in this thread I'll comment on.

First is the mix of substrates. Sand and gravel will mix unless they are permanently divided, as with some form of solid divider (can be glass, plastic, rock, wood) that is completely sealed to the tank bottom glass and the side glass at that level. Otherwise, the sand will shift under the gravel and so forth.

Second is your GH. You will need to raise this to at least 4 dGH, but 5-6 would be better. The Echinodorus and Hellanthium will not do well in very soft water, neither will most other plants for that matter. I've had this problem for years and have tried various methods with varying degrees of success. You have to be careful, as some methods will affect pH which is not always good, depending. And I agree, Vallisneria would struggle in soft acidic water. I've dealt with this too.

Byron.


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

For the gravel 'river' I was just planning on putting some small (<1/2 inch) river stones on top of the sand. I think they should stay on top and not 'sink' although I suspect long term they'll end up partially buried which is okay.

For the GH ... I've thought about using Equilibrium but I've been hesitant to do so. My 20 and 10 gallon have been doing okay so far. I would just be concerned about the dosing of it. Would the swings in GH during water changes be a problem for the fish? I plan on using an Aqueon water changer (similar to a Python) to just add water directly to the tank. So the GH will fall, then rise in the span of ~30 minutes.

I'm also concerned with the water conditioner, how much to add when doing this. Hate the idea of chlorine being in there even if only for a few minutes.

Thinking about this more, I may drop the Hygrophila so I don't block the view of the driftwood.


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

An updated plan, a bit less busy. I need to remember that it's only 18.5" wide which dosen't leave all that much room front to back.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

Geomancer said:


> An updated plan, a bit less busy. I need to remember that it's only 18.5" wide which dosen't leave all that much room front to back.


Do you already have the driftwood?

More Java Moss


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

Yes, I have 6 or 7 pieces in a box waiting in various sizes. I'll try and fit as much as I can in.

With the Java Moss ... we'll see. I have to order it online, no one anywhere around here sells it. I don't like the idea of ordering it online because most who sell it just cut pieces out of their home tanks that are full of fish and it makes me leery of disease.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

Geomancer said:


> Yes, I have 6 or 7 pieces in a box waiting in various sizes. I'll try and fit as much as I can in.
> 
> With the Java Moss ... we'll see. I have to order it online, no one anywhere around here sells it. I don't like the idea of ordering it online because most who sell it just cut pieces out of their home tanks that are full of fish and it makes me leery of disease.


That is true, well if you initially get a good bundle...get a good amount. 

Look here though: ThatPetPlace.com


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

lorax84 said:


> There are two main styles of planted aquariums (basically) the DUtch style and the Natural (iwagumi) style. Most people tend to gravitate towards one of these two styles. Dutch is the traditional style with rows of well trimmed thick colorful plants. This is a dutch tank.
> 
> Here is a dutch tank:
> 
> ...


I missed this earlier, sorry. I would expand this definition. The two types of planted aquarium illustrated here are both high-tech styles. Planted aquaria can be some other types. I go for natural planted tanks [this is not the same as Amano's "Nature" tanks which are not replicas of nature nor are they natural] which are low-tech. And there are many variable between these two methods.

Below is one of my natural tanks. These rely on nature mainly; I provide light, and with my very soft water I need to add some nutrients, but not CO2 which is completely natural.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

Byron said:


> I missed this earlier, sorry. I would expand this definition. The two types of planted aquarium illustrated here are both high-tech styles. Planted aquaria can be some other types. I go for natural planted tanks [this is not the same as Amano's "Nature" tanks which are not replicas of nature nor are they natural] which are low-tech. And there are many variable between these two methods.
> 
> Below is one of my natural tanks. These rely on nature mainly; I provide light, and with my very soft water I need to add some nutrients, but not CO2 which is completely natural.


Byron,

My biggest question with this is the water current. Do you use anything to get the water moving?

With the plants I am sure the water has enough O2.

I want to try a set up like this eventually.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

> For the GH ... I've thought about using Equilibrium but I've been hesitant to do so. My 20 and 10 gallon have been doing okay so far. I would just be concerned about the dosing of it. Would the swings in GH during water changes be a problem for the fish? I plan on using an Aqueon water changer (similar to a Python) to just add water directly to the tank. So the GH will fall, then rise in the span of ~30 minutes.


I do not have any issues here. My tap water GH is near-zero (around 12 ppm or less than 1 dGH) and I now keep the tanks at 5-6 dGH with Equilibrium. I change half the tank volume every week in all tanks. I add Equilibrium after the tank is filled, up to an hour later depending how I'm doing the changes (I have 7 tanks). I don't know how long it takes Equilibrium to completely raise the GH.



> I'm also concerned with the water conditioner, how much to add when doing this. Hate the idea of chlorine being in there even if only for a few minutes.


In my small 10g tank, I use a bucket so obviously add the conditioner to the bucket before the water goes into the tank. I do this because the Python fills the tank too fast and it will easily overflow. On my other tanks, I use the Python and I start the water fill at the faucet in the utility room, walk back to the fish room, squirt in conditioner. It might be 30 seconds. And my tap water is heavily chlorinated.

As for amount of conditioner, I know many say with this method (in the tank) you need to dose for the volume of the tank, rather than the volume being added. I don't and never have done this. Though I admit that by squirting it in I may be adding far more than the amount for the added water. But over the past few months I was using a different conditioner as an experiment and I had to measure it in teaspoons (no squirter jar:lol and I never added more than for the replacement water. Fish seemed to love it, either way, I've had them swim into the stream and a couple times into the Python.


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## fish monger (Dec 29, 2011)

I do all water changes with a bucket since I don't have any very large tanks. I dose each bucket full. For example, dose for 3 gallons for each 3 gallon bucket of water.


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

Byron said:


> We should explore this, as all the green-leaf swords will do fine in moderate light. But they are heavy feeders, so nutrients may be the issue. If you do want to continue this discussion, give me the water params (GH and pH), light, tank size (length and volume), and nutrient fertilization. Substrate doesn't matter but if it is an enriched one mention it as this is a nutrient source. Also your water change schedule, and if you vacuum the substrate in any way.
> 
> Byron.


Hey sorry for the delay as I just saw this post. :-? My PH = 7.4, GH = 9. These numbers are from back in December as I don't check the them anymore (I still check for ammonia and nitrites and nitrates. NH3= 0, NO2 = 0,NO3 = 5 were the last numbers I had on those). Lights are Two 48" T8 GE Daylight bulbs @ 6500K. They are on for 8hrs a day. I dose Flourish Comprehensive 1x a week ( also to be completely honest I would forget sometimes) and have FLourish root tablets as well. Will say this as well I do have black sand over a soil for a substrate. Water changes are once a week @ 50%. I do hover over the substrate in the open areas. I don't ever touch the substrate with the siphon cup though. I also have lots of plant cover from my Vals and Pennywort that I have floating so my tank isn't very bright. 

Oh the tank is a 55 gallon. 48x12x21


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Termato said:


> Byron,
> 
> My biggest question with this is the water current. Do you use anything to get the water moving?
> 
> ...


All my tanks have filters. The smaller (10g, 20g, 29g and 33g) have a sponge filter, the larger (like the 70g in the photo) have a canister.

I did an experiment with my 10g a year back, had it sitting in front of a west-facing window, no filter, no light. It was fine for several months, but the lack of an overhead light made is difficult to enjoy the fish and setup, and I felt the water was not crystal clear, so I added a single sponge filter and a light when I moved it.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Boredomb said:


> Hey sorry for the delay as I just saw this post. :-? My PH = 7.4, GH = 9. These numbers are from back in December as I don't check the them anymore (I still check for ammonia and nitrites and nitrates. NH3= 0, NO2 = 0,NO3 = 5 were the last numbers I had on those). Lights are Two 48" T8 GE Daylight bulbs @ 6500K. They are on for 8hrs a day. I dose Flourish Comprehensive 1x a week ( also to be completely honest I would forget sometimes) and have FLourish root tablets as well. Will say this as well I do have black sand over a soil for a substrate. Water changes are once a week @ 50%. I do hover over the substrate in the open areas. I don't ever touch the substrate with the siphon cup though. I also have lots of plant cover from my Vals and Pennywort that I have floating so my tank isn't very bright.
> 
> Oh the tank is a 55 gallon. 48x12x21


I see nothing here that would cause problems for pygmy chain sword. What other plants are in the tank? I don't know a lot about allelopathy, but I am just wondering. And I assume the other species are all fine?

Can you post a photo of one of these plants? What exactly are the symptoms? Have you tried Flourish twice weekly? I'm thinking the nutrients may be a bit weak for the light; the fish load and feeding can impact here.


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## angella (Dec 21, 2011)

I love it when other people enjoy making lists, diagrams, and planning these things out like I do xD
Haha I do this all the time, mostly dreaming. I really hope your tank turns out as awesome as it looks and I get to see it. Good luck, I read through the posts and it looks great!


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

Thanks, I should be making the first steps in 1 week. The new carpet has arrived and the installers have set a date. Once they're finished I'll be spending the weekend ordering plants and doing the hardscape. Then the slow process of adding the fish over a couple of month period to ease them in.


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

Byron said:


> I see nothing here that would cause problems for pygmy chain sword. What other plants are in the tank? I don't know a lot about allelopathy, but I am just wondering. And I assume the other species are all fine?
> 
> Can you post a photo of one of these plants? What exactly are the symptoms? Have you tried Flourish twice weekly? I'm thinking the nutrients may be a bit weak for the light; the fish load and feeding can impact here.


I don't have the plant anymore as I threw it out. I can tell you after several months the plants leaves turned transparent and fell off. It was similar to when a crypt melts. Will as say this the roots never seem to grow any bigger then when I first bought it. The others plants that are in the tank are Jungle Val, Amazon Sword, a couple of dwarf swords that I can remember the name of. A crypt that I bought at Petco simply tagged crypt. So have no clue what it is. Java moss and Pennywort. Also have 3 Anubias in there. When I get a chance I'll find the names of.the dwarf swords. Here is a pic of the entire tank.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Don't need the names, there is nothing you have that I don't, and in with the chain sword.

Well, all I can say is it must have been missing nutrients. The light is identical with mine, and even in my slightly larger tanks with two tubes I have no issues in that regard; this plant does grow like a weed, and I have it in every tank but one.

You are sure it was Hellanthium tenellum (or formerly/sometimes still called Echinodorus tenellus)? And not some other plant labelled with the common name? I've seen various odd plants called "swords" in stores.

I'm having some issues with mine getting holes in the leaves, by which I mean the cell tissue basically dissolves leave the cross-ribbing. This may be potassium-related. I've also had lack of calcium and magnesium and recently started using Equilibrium which has absolutely solved this problem; the larger Echinodorus species are increasing in size by 1/3 and sending out leaves like mad. The Hellanthium tenellum has improved too, but in two tanks I am still having the one issue, so I've upped the Flourish to twice instead of once weekly. [It is interesting that one of these tanks with the Hellanthium issue is the one with Flourite substrate.] If this doesn't work, Flourish Potassium will be the next step in those two tanks. There is Potassium in Equilibrium too, so I'm thinking with the chain sword that this slightly improvement may be due to the additional potassium. Sometimes one just has to experiment to find issues.


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

I can not be absolutely sure it was the "true" Pygmy chain sword. As I did get it from Petco but from pics I have seen it look like it. I may try getting this plant from online sometime in the future. As for now I am to the point that I realize this is just one plant that won't grow for me.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Boredomb said:


> I can not be absolutely sure it was the "true" Pygmy chain sword. As I did get it from Petco but from pics I have seen it look like it. I may try getting this plant from online sometime in the future. As for now I am to the point that I realize this is just one plant that won't grow for me.


Now I'm almost positive that the plant was actually microsword, or _Lilaeopsis brasiliensis_ [this is the most common species, there are some others]. Grown emersed, as most aquarium plants are, they are nearly identical in leaf structure. In fact, in another thread, i identified the plant in a photo as Hellanthium tenellum until zof corrected me and i took a second look and agreed with him. 

This plant is much more difficult; mine [which were labelled "Tenellus sword" even] yellowed and melted within a couple weeks in 2 or 3 different tanks. I kept one "root" in the 70g and left it alone, and it has now after several months spread a bit, but it is feeble.

If you were in Canada I would mail you a bucket of Hellanthium tenellum, I'm tossing out plantlets every week. And I'm not kidding. If you can find it in a reliable store or online, or from another member in your area, I would try it.

Byron.


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## Boredomb (Feb 21, 2011)

Byron said:


> Now I'm almost positive that the plant was actually microsword, or _Lilaeopsis brasiliensis_ [this is the most common species, there are some others]. Grown emersed, as most aquarium plants are, they are nearly identical in leaf structure. In fact, in another thread, i identified the plant in a photo as Hellanthium tenellum until zof corrected me and i took a second look and agreed with him.
> 
> This plant is much more difficult; mine [which were labelled "Tenellus sword" even] yellowed and melted within a couple weeks in 2 or 3 different tanks. I kept one "root" in the 70g and left it alone, and it has now after several months spread a bit, but it is feeble.
> 
> ...


 Byron I would like to discuss this a little futher if you don't mind. :-? I started a new Thread called "Microsword and or Pygmy Chain sword" just so I don't highjack Geomancers Thread anymore.


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