# Types of Fish for Each 10gal Nano Tank Biome



## Squatchmen

I'm in the Beginner Freshwater Forum section, simply because I don't know where else would be better for this post, luckily I'm a beginner, so at least half of the title is acceptable. This might take a while, so lets start. I had this really awesome idea, I've had my big premier tank for a little while now and was thinking of different ways I could go about in the future such as these options:

- One Big tank w/ optional quarantine tank
- Two half size tanks example - Planted tank, Reef tank
- Several smaller nano tanks 

Then all of a sudden I decided I could keep my big tank (which I would have anyway) and thought of having several nano tanks based off the three main biomes: Freshwater, Brackish, Saltwater, and I have a really long table behind my couch I could use the space for. These are the different separate biomes I'm doing:

*Freshwater*

- Lakes/Pond (Arctic)
- Rivers/ Streams (Tropical)

*Estuary*

- Rivers to Oceans (Arctic)
- Brackish Marsh (Tropical)

*Saltwater*

- Ocean (Arctic)
- Reef (Tropical)

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So not to bombard everyone with so many biomes, but I would like to have AT LEAST three different fish for each biome that can get along, I like to slightly overcrowd my tanks, so five different fish for each biome (a fish per gallon) would be much appreciated.

Also, what kind of aquascape could I do for each one? I already know I have to get 3 chillers and 3 heaters.......

Another thing I might have to point out, I'm a noobie when it comes to Brackish water and have NO clue what I'm doing in Saltwater, I know my stuff in Freshwater at least.

Any small input will be greatly appreciated!

Thanks


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## thekoimaiden

Welcome to the forum! 

I can't speak for the brackish and salt, but I can tell you, you'll have a lot of trouble keeping true arctic freshwater species. The temperature will be the largest issue and your other issue is size. Most of those fish are pretty large. You'd have better luck going for temperate, northern hemisphere fish. But even then, your options are SEVERELY limited with a 5 gal. Most north american natives I know of require 40+ gal tanks. Stunning fish, but not for small tanks. For your freshwater tank, I'd advise going with tropical/subtropical fishes.


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## Squatchmen

Well not to confuse anyone, or you in particular. I wrote Arctic because it was simple and basically just stated that it's the opposite of "Tropical" so yeah - Hmmm, so if I do temperate or just northern fish in general, what can I be looking at for the lakes/ponds?


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## Chesh

Your idea is amazing, and I'm thinking that many of us have dreamed of something similar at some point! Hopefully some of our members will be able to get you get the input you need to get started. . . 

Questions for YOU first. . . 

Is there _ANY _chance you can try this amazing setup with slightly larger tanks?!! Just upping them from 5g to 10g or 15g will give you _so _many more options. . . and make your life much easier as far as maintaining consistent parameters (including temperature!). Especially with saltwater. I'm not terribly familiar with the salty side, but from what I've seen poking around, you may find it fairly difficult to maintain a nano tank of this size as a beginner. . . Personally, I'd rather go down to ONE tank of each type and have it be larger/healthier - Though that kind of kills the idea of tropical/temperate tanks for each! :/ 

Do you have the tanks already? If so, wondering the dimensions - the difference between a standard 5g and a 5g hex (or whatever!) can make a big difference in the suggestions you will receive!

What is your water hardness? Knowing your kh and gh will help us out a bit as far as offering possible suggestions. . . 

Along the same lines - how willing/experienced are you with shifting and maintaining water parameters in tanks of this size? Most of the smaller/nano fish tend to be very sensitive, and as the tiny tanks are so subject to flux. . . it can be very dangerous for them, unless you have a fair amount of experience with these things. . .

I'm wondering how set you are on _FISH _- or would you be willing to go with other fun things, like shrimp, frogs, crabs, even maybe a coral (if that's possible, idk!!!) would make a pretty cool display, and could be far easier for you to maintain. 

Does it _HAVE_ to be 3-5 DIFFERENT species? Speaking from a freshwater perspective, there are probably a few nano fish that can be kept in a well maintained 5g (10 would still be much better!), but some of those need to be kept on their own as specemin fish, and most others require a shoal - in both cases you'd be stuck with a species-only tank. I'm not really coming up with many _COMMUNITY_ nano fish that you'd be able to stock in a 5g tank, unfortunately. :/

As far as setups/aquascapes - that's always fun! But this will likely be directly related to the animal(s) you end up with - so better to figure that part out first, and in the course of researching, you'll begin to form a clearer image of the needs of the creatures who will be living there, and can set the tank up as a biotope to best suit both them and you!

Welcome to TFK, by the way! Glad to have you - and I'm not trying to rain on your parade!!! Hopefully we can all work together to find something that will work for both you and the animals, so everyone can be happy! In the meantime, I suggest that you pop over to our Beginner Saltwater area, and set up a thread there to get more input on what you'll need to set up and maintain nano saltwater tanks of this size!

Really looking forward to seeing this dream develop, and wishing you the best of luck on this fun project! ^__^





ETA: I'm going to move this thread into our advanced discussions area! This setup is going to require quite a bit of discussion, and a skill-set that's more advanced than what your average beginner has to properly maintain! Typically, our suggestions for beginners wanting to set up tanks of this size would be good ol' Betta splendens, and I'd hate for a true newbie to see a recommendation for a more sensitive fish and not have the experience to keep it well!


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## Squatchmen

Hey Chesh - well I'm getting better with my main freshwater tank day by day, its been about 9 months now doing this and I'm really happy with my progression. I almost feel like a pro....but sadly I'm not, but getting there!

Anywho, I was just thinking the same darn idea before I could go to sleep was instead of having six 5gal nano tanks being Arctic/Tropical - I could if I really, really wanted to, I could sacrifice the Arctic side and basically half my biome environments for the sake of management and upkeep - but I keep going back to the fact it wouldn't be as cool, not as stellar to look at, not as impressive. I'll keep my wits about me maintaining 5gal tanks.

Nope, I don't have the tanks, I'm thinking of starting this project in a couple years because you know, I have other stuff I have to do and such. But when I get around to it, definitely square or cubed tanks. OK, and to clear things up, I'm really only looking at getting 3 fish per tank, I mean if the selection is narrow I will sacrifice the amount of fish. It's fine.

These are my water parameters

- Nitrates: 0 - 10ppm (in my 60gal aquarium)
- Nitrites: 0ppm
- Hard/Soft: 180 - 300
- Alkalinity: 120 - 180
- PH: 7.8 - 8.4

Ha, oh man - no. I have virtually no (zero) experience with this kind of stuff......

3 fish per tank (5gal) is where I'm looking at, I mean I would really, REALLY like it to be consistent throughout the 6 tanks.

Lastly, I'm most certainly fine moving away from just strictly fish, I can do other aquatic animals or even as far as amphibians, yeah I ok with that

Also, thanks for the warm welcome!


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## Flear

i'm always surprised when people want tanks under 10gallons

Dwarf Pigmy goby - Pandaka pygmaea - under 1cm freshwater
stout infantfish - Schindleria brevipinguis - under 1cm marine
there is a smaller freshwater, but that wants a PH of about 3

just my opinion, get a larger tank
such a small tank, even 2x the recommended max bioload, 3 fish for small, 5+ fish if you can find something like the green neon or other very small fish. measure based on adult size, and suddenly 5gallon tanks are suitable for solitary fish only. community fish your looking at 3-4 fish minimum, 5+ preferred

the small 1cm fish i mentioned, when i looked for the freshwater one, for diet it said "plankton", ... phytoplankton, zooplankton, either/or, ... dono

can you get the fish, ... probably not
can you feed the fish, ... if you can't feed it, don't get it.

for small tanks, if you insist, ...

design the substrate, sand, for more beneficial bacteria. to keep ammonia & nitrites down
add lava rock to keep the nitrates down (same process as life rock for marine)

add plants, moss, (freshwater)
macro algae (marine)
-to keep nitrates down

stay away from stem plants if only because they can overgrow the tank easily if it's that small (or your pruning lots - not that it's a bad thing)

and i don't know squat about sizes of different macro-algaes
i would recommend ignoring the lighting recommendations for marine tanks (the 10,000K lights), even coral that lives down lower (still plenty of light) i've heard benefits from 6500K lighting, ... then your only looking to take care of the symbiotic algae it lives with (if you have coral)

i would/could easily recommend coral in such a tank, ... but then you've gotta deal with nutrient issues that can cause algae blooms which are a good sign your going to loose your coral

worry less about the fish & compatibility for such small tanks (and at that size, your either stuck with solitary fish (1, maybe 2 - would likely turn into one fish doing the backstroke while you flushed him down the toilet), or your dealing with community fish, which a single species will require enough same species your back to one species for the tank.

worry less about compatibility and more about building a sustainable tank, that size tanks are far less stable, i think that's a far larger goal & priority.

or could skip the fish and look for bio-luminescent plankton, ... a disturbance and the tank will glow in the dark, not enough to read, but enough to know where the tank is in the middle of a moonless night


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## BWG

This is an interesting idea in a hypothetical way. I don't think it is possible to met such exacting requirements for each one though, namely the three fish per each five gallon tank. I could however name several that might work, but instead want to focus on something you mentioned in passing.



Squatchmen said:


> - One Big tank w/ optional quarantine tank


I understand wanting to keep lots of different fish, believe me I do. You want to use every available tank and all the space to do it. I have the urge too. The problem though is that you should not sacrifice keeping a quarantine tank in favor of this plan. You want long term success in this hobby then you need to start thinking of QT tanks as mandatory and not optional.


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## Squatchmen

@Fear - There must be a compliment in there somewhere! Talking about my 5gal tanks.....

Thanks for the tiny list of fish I can keep, Well because I'm doing so small of tank sizes, I COULD maybe do RO water....

And here is the part everyone needs to listen to and not just to you Fear, I've decided I wanted to do three 10gal tanks, I can group the lake/pond into the river/stream and the same can go with the Estuary and Marine - I was thinking of doing something like a main freshwater tank that would perfectly illustrate that biome of that part of the world with mainly just a really well done hardscape, same with the other two - no plants or corals. Just a very pleasing overly done hardscape. Moving on, I still want to keep the idea of a cold/warm concept, so I decided I want to do an "Arctic" theme for my strictly freshwater tank - than a "Temperate" or seasonal theme for my Estuary tank - finally a "Tropical" theme for my marine tank.

I wander if the fish would only eat live plankton or frozen? I'll see what I can do

Well I know I'm doing sand for my marine tank, and I'm going to do a 50/50 with my estuary tank, and I'll look into another substrate for my freshwater which is a lake/river hybrid......this'll be interesting 

Thanks for the plant plant list, I might do plants, but to a minimum for all my tanks, simply because, and this the other piece to my concept, I would love to have my biotope nano tanks be the hardscaped version to my large tank, My large tank would be heavily planted - so it's like Yin and Yang - I could see if I can do a tank without such plants or corals.....I mean I don't know, this is my first

I think that's a good idea - I'll probably do 6500K LED for all my tanks, but I'm still wondering if I HAVE to plants, because I would kind of like it more without, maybe if you or someone could recommend an idea without plants for equipment or the hardscape that'd be awesome - or you could say the opposite, why I would need plants, I dunno 

About the fish - what would be the perfect stock number for a ten (10) gallon tank? Because I could do three fish in a 5 gal, could I do seven in a 10gal tank? And then what would be my options for 7 fish, species only, schooling, I should be able to do more variety

Hmmmm, bio-luminescent plankton - I could do that, I stated before that I can move away from just strictly fish, so you never know, options are open


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## Squatchmen

@BWG - Hmmm, yeah, I have heard a ton of people recommending the quarantine tank for at least my main aquarium, well I'll probably keep that as mandatory then


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## Chesh

_SUPER_ relieved and happy to hear your plan has shifted to allow for bigger tanks! This is going to make your life so much easier, and go a long way in ensuring whatever animals you end up with are safe. . . as well as opening up many options to you that were closed to a 5g tank. A VERY wise decision. I commend you! (if you'd like I'd be happy to edit your original post to reflect the tank size change, I'm fairly certain that you'll get more information if this is made clear from the beginning - just send a PM letting me know what you'd like changed, if anything, and I'll take care of it for you!) 

As for stocking - there IS no 'perfect stock number.' lol. Each fish has it's own unique bioload, and THAT is what will determine how many you are able to keep in a each setup. Going for the 10g tanks is going to give you MUCH more room to work with stocking-wise, but there truly is no 'hard and fast' rule for stocking. . . once we pin down the animials that will be living here, THEN the answers to many of your other questions will begin to fall into place and become more clear. 

BWG brings up a point that is incredibly important, and I REALLY encourage you to put a lot of thought into this. A QT/Hospital tank is unfortunately one of those things that people often don't feel is necessary until their fish find themselves in a life or death situation. PLEASE don't let that happen to you! If you have to choose between this project, or having a QT - QT wins, hands down! Will you have room in your home for these three setups, in addition to a QT tank?

Flear brings up several valid points here, too - tank size aside. Smaller fish tend to have very specific requirements/needs - in feeding, water quality, water chemistry - the list goes on. Nano fish are *typically* what I would consider 'advanced' fish. Not saying that you don't have the skill to handle them, but that you should be prepared to do all sorts of things that you may not have thought of yet to ensure that they thrive. . . lol, it is NEVER a bad thing to learn as much as you can - but I wouldn't worry *TOO* much about plankton just yet. You have a bit of a way to go before you're ready to truly settle on any fish, and when you do - you'll have to learn about their needs too!!!

Not in agreement about the addition of plantlife, however! Not saying you have to agree with me, lol, but many of the nano species that I know of would feel quite stressed in an environment without plants, and the benefit plants bring in terms of helping to maintain water quality will go a long way in helping you to keep the pristine conditions that most nanofish require, as well as giving you that biotope feel that you seem to be looking for (depending on the fish you end up with, of course >.<). To be HONEST? You need to FIRST figure out which fish you want to keep - and THEN build the tank around their needs. Again, many of these nanos are specialist fish, often require species-only (something you may wish to think on further - there is nothing, in my opinion, that is more beautiful than a rare fish species in an environment built exactly suited to it's needs). And as far as creating a TRUE biotope, well - to be authentic, it kind of_ has_ to be centered around the where the fish you end up with live. . . we need to get some suggestions in here!!! ^__^

lol, I hope you realize that you aren't asking easy questions here!!! I'm not the most experienced with nanos, but all those I'm familiar with are fresh and tropical - so don't match ANY of your criteria for these tanks! >.< BWG knows his nanofish (sorry to put you on the spot, BWG!!!) If anyone can find what you're looking for, I'm betting it's him! He's never let _me_ down, but my questions seem so simple compared to yours!!! >.<

Our NUMBER ONE GOAL on TFK is to give the BEST input that we are able to ensure the safety of the animals in our care. A 5g tank filled with nano fish is something that many of our most experienced members 20+ years!) would steer away from, and I suspect this is why you've seen very little in terms of *actual* suggestions as of yet. . . just wanted to put that out there, so you understand why you aren't getting a straight-up list of tinyfish (and also why I suggested you may want to edit your original post/title). This project is going to require a_ lot_ of time and research on your part to get started! Seems to me like you realize that, and I commend you for taking the time NOW to learn as much as you can _ before _bringing these animals home. . .this amazing concept may not be *quite* as easy as it seems at first glance! But hopefully together we can get this sorted and you on your way!

I WANT BIO-LUMINESCENT PLANKTON!!!!! How cool. . .

Oh, and out of curiosity. . . would something like a paludarium be an option for you with this? Or ONLY underwater environments?


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## Squatchmen

Wow, 3 posts in a row - I'd really like a reply after I make this one, but anyway, this is what I've come up with for today's research. It's mostly just the ground work, the foundation, I can always add stuff to what I already looked up....or get rid of stuff.

*Freshwater Arctic Nano Biotope*

Moss / Driftwood / Rock

Dirt, clay, sand or gravel (substrate)

River rock, slate, lava rock 

Suggestions on type of Driftwood (?)

Calliergon Giganteum (plant)
------------------------------------------------------------
*Fish*

- Northern Leatherside Chub
- Two-horned sculpin
- Lake chub
- Ninespine stickleback
- Slimy sculpin
- Spoonhead sculpin
- Threespined stickleback
----------------------------------------------------
*Other animals*

- Wood frog
- Siberian Salamander
- Lymnaea Elodes
- Murray crayfish
- Callinectes sapidus
- Northern map turtle
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

So yeah, that's it - I kind of decided I want 7 critters in it, mostly the fish, and then the rest is filler space.

On a side note, I know I have amphibious animals on the list, but I would like this biotope to be 100% aquatic.

So feedback - I need it, please


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## Squatchmen

@Chesh - You can change the title, and whatever else you need to change to reflect my change for this concept, most definitely

So you're saying, when we (or just me) find out the specific fish/animals I would could possibly have, the stock list will basically show itself, because of those specific needs the fish and or animal has to have, got it

Yeah I have room for a QT tank and the 3 nano tanks...... *whispering* barely (lol)

I have a couple of advanced fish in my big tank, namely rams, but ok for the plankton, when it gets closer to actually doing the project I'll let you know

I can do plants, but I would like it to be at a minimum, I mean I don't want a heavy planted tank, but I can put some plants here and there, yeah. Also I need to find more arctic aquatic plants other than the moss I found.....

I can most certainly do a paludarium! But can only be for my Estuary tank....... haha

So BWG - he's the guy that COULD potentially help me the most? Sweet!

Lastly, I can't find a way to edit my original post, I'm brandy new to this site, so forgive me, also, I would LOVE to have bio-luminescent plankton in my marine tank


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## BWG

Actually I've been watching since your first post, but you told me to hustle so here I am. 

My first bit of advice is that you really have to dial back on your expectations. You're excited I get that. I promise you though that neither species of ram is all that advanced. Your idea of 3 ten gallons with different looks and fish is doable (and kind of awesome!), but that's as far as I'll go.

You keep saying artic, which I take to mean cold water. How do you intend to achieve that? Chillers are costly pieces of equipment. Subtropical is going to be much easier to achieve.

Where are you planning to get the fish you listed? I don't know what state you are in so don't know if they are present AND legal to catch.

Many of the things you have listed so far get too large. You only have a 10 gallon. A blue crab for instance can reach a width of 9 inches!

What is the insistence with 7 fish per aquarium? I could easily stock more than that in a freshwater 10. I know very little about saltwater, but I'll be amazingly surprised if anyone can name 7 tropical saltwater fish that will be fine together in a 10 gallon. 

I could design more than 3 ten gallon freshwater biotopes for you, but honestly with all criteria it's just impossible.


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## thekoimaiden

I'm going to go through your 'arctic' fish list (of which most you list are temperate fishes). I'm not trying to be a party-pooper. I'm just being realistic. 

*Northern Leatherside Chub* --> entirely too large for a 10 gal. Typical size for this species is 8.5cm. A 10 gal is 25 cm wide. Chubs (like most cyprinids) are shoaling fish meaning they like groups of more than 6 fish. It's a common trend with small fish.
*Two-horned sculpi*n --> not actually a freshwater species. While this is a true polar species, it's marine. 
*Lake chub* --> Same issue with other chub. This fish gets 10.5cm long and should be in groups. 
*Ninespine stickleback* --> Might actually be small enough for a 10 gal at 6.5 cm, but judging from distribution data this is probably an estuarine species that can move back and fourth between fresh and salt. 
*Slimy sculpin* --> another species that travels between fresh and brackish, so likely an estuarine species. Would be pushing it in a 10 gal with a length of 7.5cm. 
*Spoonhead sculpin* --> Length might actually work in a 10 gal as it averages 6cm, but this species appears to need high flow as it inhabits fast flowing streams. Good unidirectional flow is difficult to accomplish in a 10 gal. 
*Threespined stickleback* --> Snother estuarine species. Averages 5.1cm so probably the most viable of the list for a 10 gal. However, I cannot speak to it's conspecific requirements like I can for the chubs. 

BWG brings up another good point. How are you going to acquire all of these fish? Some are from the central US, others are coastal Europe (which incidentally also means it's not a biotope). 

If you are really interested in temperate (cool-water) species, I highly recommend you check out the profiles on this site: Biology and Captive Care - Captive Care 

My personal choice for a 10 gal temperate tank would be darters that don't need a lot of flow like johnny darters or swamp darters. Honestly, darters are some of my favorite temperate fish, but a lot of them require high flow which is more easily attained in longer tanks.


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## Squatchmen

@BWG - Ahhhh, I don't want to dial back, and thanks, it will be awesome

Well I need to look up the chillers, and I keep saying Arctic, because I mean Arctic - it's freeze your bottom off cold - than my Estuary tank is subtropical/temperate - My Marine tank is going to be purely Tropical.......Hmmmm, I'm thinking - If I wanted to, I COULD dial back a smidgen and have my "Arctic" freshwater tank be a 50/50 being a little bit of arctic fish and a bit of temperate fish. Than I would like my Estuary tank to be MOSTLY just temperate fish, and then my Marine tank could be 50/50 of temperate and tropical fish......I'm just throwing it out there. I need feedback, what could I sacrifice a little for to get more of - how would _you_ do it? 

Well I live in NJ (USA) and I knew to begin with that the cold water fish would be hard to get, I know that a whole lot of tropical fish are really easy to get a hold of. 

Well yeah, I threw in a few of those that I knew would be too big, I don't know why I even put them on the list, I know the turtle couldn't work..... C'mon, I'm pretty sure those fish can be just fine in a 10gal, I hope

It doesn't have to be 7 fish, it's whatever that can be justified in a 10gal, I just picked 7 because it just felt right (I dunno) 

You really could design all three? Wow, that'd be awesome

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@thekoimaiden - Damn Wikipedia, Y U NO TELL TRUTH!!!!!!

Alright, well what other kinds of true freshwater arctic fish are there, if most of mine are temperate? 

Thanks for the link

I am interested in temperate fish, but for my freshwater tank, I'd really, really like it to be true arctic......so I need true freshwater arctic species that are really small and can fit in a 10gal tank

Thanks for the Darter fish, they look really sick!


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## Flear

10 gallon tanks, could start looking at 1" fish (adult size), these are hard to find as our aquarium fish are rarely rated /listed by size, ... there are not many 1" fish, shrimp are an option

dwarf puffer fish are an option if you want snail, snail are then live food to the puffer fish, they are territorial, so at best a breeding set, i've heard 1 per 5 gallons, i stayed away from these as they are reported to be single species tank type fish, the otto. can work (another small fish) because it's very quick to get out of the way. the dwarf puffers are also reported to have lots of personality, which can be fun, but you'll only have a couple in 10 gallons

could look at the otto itself, _ottocyclis_, 

green neon tetra, other tetras range from 1", and larger
nothing against the traditional neon tetra at 10 gallons, but the market is taking it's toll on them genetically, they getting unhealthy deformities due to bad breeding practices by some... also larger than an inch

celestial pearl danio looks nice, new to the hobby, so healthy, hard part is finding them, 1" in size, good enough for 10 gallons.

1" fish are out there, but again, our fish are not rated by size anywhere i've seen (i've looked lots, and lots more, not sorted by size anywhere) but this is what your looking for at 10 gallons. there are not many 1" fish, but they are out there 

thekoimaiden brings up a good point
the fish i mentioned are small, i have no idea about there swimming behaviors or water current preferences


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## Chesh

Just stopping in with another random thought from the peanut gallery. . . 

As far as biotopes are concerned, one of my FAVORITE types (that unfortunately I see very little of) are local ones. >.< Several of our members (including some of the commenters on this thread ) are fairly familiar with the native fish that live in your (our!) area. I have no idea, personally, if there is anything woObie enough to fit into a 10g tank, but would you consider doing a temperate local setup if it proves possible?

Just curious, cuz' _*I*_ think that would be fun ! ^__^


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## Chesh

Some good points, Flear. . . shrimp WOULD be ridiculously awesome (and active), and there are a lot of 'specimen fish,' like the (omg adorable!) dwarf puffers that would be perfect~ ^_^

But Squatch - these aren't arctic animals, and how opposed are you to shifting your ideal of many creatures in one small tank, to just one or two - but super cool - critters? >.<

Nothing wrong with a bustling community tank, they're gorgeous to watch (you know this, you have one already!) - but there is a certan charm that comes with tanks that cater to the needs of one specefic animal, too. When you're talking about biotopes. . . you have the option of getting far more specific when you're building a tank to reflect the habitat of only one or two creatures. . . 

lol, just a few more idle thoughts.


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## Squatchmen

@Flear - 1" fish, geez, well I don't know if this is out of the question, but could I POSSIBLY do up to 3" ? I mean, it might be a tiny cramp for them, but could it be done? I would like shrimp, they're cool.

Dwarf puffers, which type of water do they live in, fresh, brack, salt? I wouldn't mind having a couple of those, and about the Ottocyclist, are you saying they can be with the puffers or are you saying its just a totally different fish I could do by itself?

- Green neon tetra
-Celestial pearl danio

Got it, what about rosy barbs or something in the 1" category?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Squatchmen

@Chesh - Darn you, just had to throw a curve ball saying if I was interested in doing a Paledarium, now I can't get it out of my head!

I'd be ok with doing a couple awesome critters in my tank, yeah, I'm ok with it.

I don't want to do a local biotope, meh. Not interesting.

Well I need to do arctic, or really close arctic as I can, I'll do more research and even get a book from the library if I have to

Also, I guess I'm not going to be doing a true biotope to one specific habitat, but the GENERAL habitat to all arctic in freshwater...... I would like to have a community

Lastly, I don't know if you guys would hate me or something, but I'm at my LPS and they do mostly fish, she said she has a 10gal and I could definitely do 3" fish and possibly stock up to 5 of them


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## Chesh

Not trying to throw curve balls, lol! Only trying to help get a feel for what you want, lol. You could take this in so many fun ways, you know? lol. . . key is keeping the animals safe while you're at it.

Have you looked into the specifics of setting up a 10g salt tank yet? I'm wondering how much more difficult it would be to run a cold arctic tank than to run a trop one. 

If you could do the salties cold, then it won't be nearly as difficult to get you the nano community that you seem to really want, I think. That leaves brackish, neh? Something species only for this, I think - there are a ton of amazing brackish creatures - I dunno much about NANO ones, lol, but we can find out.

Plaudariums are awesome!

Gah! Not interesting!?? To each his own, lol. I find them kind of fascinating! >.<

Books are awesome. Get some anyway ^_^


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## Squatchmen

What happened to my fixed reply to you? Well anyway, you saw it and understood it, Peludariums seem really cool, but I'm set comfortably in doing just aquariums, you know? lol.....I always keep my critters safe

I haven't looked up the specifics for the salt tank, no. I don't want to switch hemispheres because I purposely made the freshwater biotope an arctic hemisphere because my main tank is also freshwater, but its in the tropic hemisphere, see, I need it to be different - also, if you didn't know, its the two opposite biotopes combined

Yeah, I'll find out more about brackish critters. I'll talk to my LPS, read their books, get recommendations, all that good stuff
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BWG

"Arctic" isn't possible. You won't find the fish for sale. You're not going to be able to get the needed "freeze your butt off" temps without a larger chiller. That might run you a grand and take a lot of space. Not to mention I have no clue if it could be used safely on such a small aquarium. 

If you would be willing to dial things down a little, then the people here will be able to help you. I hate to be blunt, but it really is not possible for you to do "arctic" species.

It is your tank. If you wish to stock 5 3" fish in a 10 gallon, no one here will be able to stop you. However, I am telling you that it is a bad idea.


----------



## Agent13

Squatchmen said:


> Lastly, I don't know if you guys would hate me or something, but I'm at my LPS and they do mostly fish, she said she has a 10gal and I could definitely do 3" fish and possibly stock up to 5 of them


You do know how notoriously inaccurate advice from most pet stores can be? Also you can't say 1 fish needs the same as another. You can have a 1 inch fish that *needs* a 30g or larger tank and another that singly can be fine in a 5 or 10g. Without telling your LPS the specific fish there is no accurate answer for how many you're going to fit in your 10g. 
If I put 3 of my Pseudotropheus demasoni's (who have finished growing at1.5- 2inches) in a 10g or worse yet 5.. I think they'd most likely all be dead in 1 month tops. 
However this is an interesting thread to follow! And the Bioluminescent plankton.. I love that stuff! I have always gone for late night swims at the beach just to watch the waves glow in my path.


----------



## Flear

dwarf puffers are the only true freshwater puffer fish there is (as far as i've heard)
the ottocyclist isn't so much as compatable as it's the only fish talked about that will survive the nipping the puffers will do, it makes sure it swims out of the way before getting it's fins nipped unlike other fish that may not handle the abuse so well

the puffer/otto match, isn't so much of a compatibility match, as your choices of mixing puffers are limited to what other people in the hobby have found survive. ... doesn't sound like the puffers are overly aggressive, nothing like the fighting betta, but sounds like they are agressive enough on other tank-mates to make life difficult for everyone else in the tank.

could do a search for the puffer fish on youtube, there's a video out there somewhere that shows the puffer chasing a laser pointer.

---

pet stores trying to sell you 3" fish in a 10 gallon aquarium, ... if they've got the metabolism and activity of a sloth, then they don't need the space to move around with.


----------



## Chesh

(my darn thank button vanished! I over-use the thing and it runs to hide >.<)

Good thoughts, Flear - but none of these suggestions will work if OP Squatch wants both his freshwater tanks cold. . . :/


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## Squatchmen

@BWG - just you wait boy, just you wait - I'm gonna so find me some arctic fish......maybe

I could go temperate, I guess, if I have to - but they have to be really, really cool (aesthetics) for me to be happy with them

I think you're right about the stock - Hmmm, it's whatever species and type of fish I pick that'll determine the stock. I'm just so new to this hobby I always think something is always concrete and its only one way or the highway type of mentality I have to change

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Agent13 - Same with the stock, alright I'm going to do a 180 with my mindset and go back to what you guys said originally. Species = stock

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Flear - Alright, so i could _potentially_ pair the dwarf puffer with the otto. Got it - are they temperate fish at least?

Well hmmm, I dunno, would it be a wise decision to do 3" or bump it down an inch to 2" max?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


----------



## Squatchmen

- Snip -


----------



## Squatchmen

Agent13 said:


> You do know how notoriously inaccurate advice from most pet stores can be?


That's good point - I asked Chesh this question and I'll _maybe_ make it short, no promises. 

So I've been doing 50% water changes (most people from other forums think that's fine and or perfect) so after I do the initial water change I run a test to do any further adjustments, blah, blah, blah

Anyway, a couple days later my water get a little cloudy and my severums, uaru start breathing heavily, go down to my LPS, said you took out too much beneficial bacteria - also said to ONLY do a once a week 10% water change. They insisted that I buy the API quick start, bla, bla, bla

So anyway, weekend is like now and I would be doing a 50% water change, most people think that's perfect, also I'm doing a planted tank and I read that the plants give off some type of compound or substance that when it's in large quantities basically kill the plants....that's why I do the 50% 

Also, if I didn't do the 50% than I don't know how much more ferts I could put in there and the Amazon river extract (this additive is in question) 

So yeah, what the bleep do I do????????


----------



## BWG

If the goal is to have three separate tanks that look completely different, then you honestly don't even have to leave freshwater or tropical. Want some super quick examples of what I mean? Well I'm bored so in my mind you said yes. 

I'm ignoring your specific parameters to make things easy on myself and because these are just examples.

*South American blackwater:*
Playsand substrate, a number of driftwood branches, plenty of dried leaves, optional floaters like Amazon frogbit or dwarf water lettuce.
Some fish options-ember tetra, green neon tetra, ruby tetra, dwarf corydoras, pygmy corydoras, salt and pepper corydoras, red lizard whiptail

*Asian stream:*
Oversized filter to provide some flow, but not torrent conditions. Sand and rounded river rocks of varying sizes to create the look of a stream. Smaller varieties of Vals or other grasslike plants in small groups. 
Some possible fish options:Lepidocephalichthys annandalei, Hara jerdoni, Akysis vespa, Danio tinwinii, Microdevario kubotai, Microdevario nana, Microdevario gatesi, neon yellow white cloud
The fish require clean water as they are from flowing streams. The catfish in particular need live or frozen foods. Cooler temps might be needed (not cold).

*Southeast Asian forest:*
A more typical planted tank including floaters. Dark substrate. Crypts, Java ferns, mosses, Rotalas, Hygrophilas, watersprite.
Possible fish choices: Boraras brigittae, Boraras maculatus, Boraras naevus, Boraras urophthalmoides, Boraras merah, Dario hysginon, Dario dario, Dario kajal, Indostomus crocodilus, Brachygobius mekongensis, Rasbosoma spilocerca, Brevibora dorsiocellata, sparkling gourami, Sundadanio axelrodi, Pangio piperata, Pangio malayana, Pangio cuneovirgata
Many of these require live or frozen foods. Many also require soft acidic water. Some are going to be next to impossible to find, but you said freshwater fish were easy to find and I'm a sadist.

Those are three quick examples of different looking biotopes and not even all the fish from them. I got bored of finding links. There are other biotopes though that I could list, these are just three of my favorites.


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## Chesh

Replied with more detail via PM, but. . . 

. . .When in doubt, do a water change. Clean water is magic, and it won't cause harm. ^.^

I do 30-50%, I know people that do more, but 50% seems to the the average, from what I see around...


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## Hallyx

I've been reading this thread with some trepidation, and have finally gotten tired of biting my tongue. 

Sasquathcman, my friend, with all due respect, please take a deep breath and get yourself organized, You have set yourself a complicated, extravagant goal without understanding the requirements that have to be met. This goal would be a major challenge for a keeper with at least ten solid years of experience in a variety of disciplines. Even to fully understand the advice given to you here, requires basic knowledge and background that would take years of dedicated practice and hands-on fishkeeping. You won't get this education online, and you especially won't learn what you need by listening to employees of a general pet-store. I'd think twice about following advice from a dedicated LFS. Look at the years of experience these helpful members here have accumulated. Even they would have second thoughts about building your project. 

You have a 60g tank to maintain? What's in it? How's it going? When you can appropriately stock (and know why); plant effectively and keep them growing; understand the nitrogen cycle and it's subtleties; maintain water parameters without strain for a year or more with healthy unstressed livestock, then...you can stock another tank, perhaps a tropical biome. If that's successful (and if you can afford it), maybe try a saltwater tank. Not a "barrier reef" biome, but a suitably large, compatible, thriving tank.

By the time you've done that, you'll know the answers to your questions and also know why it's difficult for us to answer them in a manner that you'll truly understand. you'll also appreciate the considerable cost of what you're trying to do.

You wouldn't take driver's training in a Ferrari. You don't learn to fly in a fighter jet. All you'll do by biting off more than you can chew is to kill a bunch of innocent fish. And that's the reason I've been biting my tongue and not saying anything until now.

Around here, we put the fish first. All our help for new members is directed towards the safety and well-being of their pets. That's what we're trying to do for you. But first you have to decide on realistic goals, which match your experience, aptitude and pocketbook.

I hope you found this helpful. It was not in any way intended to embarrass or discourage you. Fishkeeping is and enjoyable and fulfilling hobby, which many of us practice for our whole lives. We start slowly, learn and grow, and achieve our goals incrementally, as befits a lifelong practice. We sincerely hope you will do this as well.


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## Squatchmen

@Chesh - I did a 50% water change, apparently it was crazy high, because after I did the water change, I still had pink - like 15ppm in my tank.......Is that normal for a bacterial bloom to do that, tomorrow I have to do another 50% after everything has been cycled through.

Feedback please

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Hallyx - This message won't just go to you, but I think everyone needs to hear this, I'm pretty sure you've read my first post on this thread stating I was a noob and you basically get the picture, that guess what, I'm a noob......

So what you're saying, and I think a lot of the others will agree with you that I should just take a chill pill and relax, I should at least become an intermediate fishkeeper before doing something with tremendous skill that this project will require. Alright, I see your point really clearly - So 10 years is the minimum in order to do this project, got it.

Alright, so come here or another good forum to talk about legitimate questions about anything I need to know and stay clear of any LFS - simply because they aren't trustworthy - also I know what you mean about being book smart and street smart, reading about it is a WHOLE lot different than experiencing first hand, got it

In my 60 gallon tank I have these fish, it might seem a tad overcrowded, but if I took a video it wouldn't look like it:

- 1 Uaru
- 2 Red Spotted Severums
- 1 Geophagus Brasiliensis
- 2 Spotted Gourami
- 3 Cobalt Gourami
- 1 Bolivian Ram
- 4 Boesemani Rainbow
- 3 Common Pleco
- 8 Corys

Plants

- Nesaea Sp. Red
- Rotala Wallichii
- Alternanthera Reineckii Roseatolia
- Cabomba Paleaformis
- Dwarf Onion

I have slate and driftwood, the slate was there mostly just to be dividers so I knew where to put the plants evenly and I have about 10 pieces of small driftwood ranging from 5" to about 12" and that's placed vertically on the left and right sides of the tank where some of the plants are nestled in. I have a GIANT piece of driftwood that floats in the corner of the tank but it makes it look like there a thick branch coming into the water hanging. It looks cool.


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## Agent13

I think the idea you have is great but perhaps there is a better way to tackle this more realistically. I'd say pick one tank *personally I'd do the salt but up the gallons to at least 30-40... if anything will teach you patience and the expense of the project that one will do it!* Work on that one over a couple of years then work on the next. The arctic as BWG said will just never be, but by the time you get there you'll have figured out something else equally as cool but actually possible. 
You don't want to load yourself up on too much at once where you're current tank may suffer from lack of attention. The knowledge needs to become your own in a sense so that when an issue arises the answer is already there and you were prepared.

Wait..rewind.. did you really mean to say you have 3 common plecos in your tank? I hope you mean some other kind of pleco. Not even 1 common pleco will fit in a 60g once grown. (they are a large 2ft fish)


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## Chesh

Squatchmen said:


> @Chesh - I did a 50% water change, apparently it was crazy high, because after I did the water change, I still had pink - like 15ppm in my tank.......Is that normal for a bacterial bloom to do that, tomorrow I have to do another 50% after everything has been cycled through.
> 
> Feedback please


15ppm of what, dear? Bacterial bloom was a guess - more information on the tank was needed to be sure of anything. 

I hope you don't feel as if we're putting you down or anything! I'm a total beginner myself! We all have to start somewhere, and you WILL get your dream tanks!!! 10 years isn't a rule or requirement, lol. Hal was just hoping to help you understand the perspective of our more experienced fish-keepers - these projects require a fairly advanced skill level, and we want to be certain you understand that before committing. You've learned how to crawl already - but have to learn to walk before you take off running!!! That in no way means we can't start researching in preparation for these future tanks! 
^__^


That being said - we're starting to veer off topic. . . If you would like input on stocking or issues regarding your current 60g setup, it is probably best to start a new thread in beginner freshwater devoted to those questions, and keep THIS thread about this project! 

*hugs* Thanks for understanding what we've been trying t say. I STILL can't wait to see this project take shape for you!


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## Chesh

I hope you don't feel as if we're putting you down or anything! I'm a total beginner myself! We all have to start somewhere, and you WILL get your dream tanks!!! 10 years isn't a rule or requirement, lol. Hal was just hoping to help you understand the perspective of our more experienced fish-keepers - these projects require a fairly advanced skill level, and we want to be certain you understand that before committing. You've learned how to crawl already - but have to learn to walk before you take off running!!! That in no way means we can't start researching in preparation for these future tanks! 
^__^

*hugs* Thanks for understanding what we've been trying to say. I can't wait to see this project take shape for you - never stop learning! 


Squatchmen said:


> @Chesh - I did a 50% water change, apparently it was crazy high, because after I did the water change, I still had pink - like 15ppm in my tank.......Is that normal for a bacterial bloom to do that, tomorrow I have to do another 50% after everything has been cycled through.
> 
> Feedback please


15ppm of what, dear? Bacterial bloom was an arbitrary guess - which is why I requested more information on the tank. Without the details, pinpointing an issue can be very difficult, I'm afraid. *

That being said - remember to stay on topic!
If you would like input on stocking or issues related to your current 60g setup, it is best to start a new thread in beginner freshwater devoted to those questions (feel free to link to it here!). 
That way more members will see it and be able to help out based on their own experiences. . . 
THIS thread is about the nano biotope project! 
(Sorry! We mod types get fussy about thread topics sometimes, it's kind of our job, lol)
~.^*


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## Squatchmen

@Agent13 and Chesh - Alrighty, I'm hopping back on this wagon, how long do you think I need before venturing off to new lands, so to speak? 10 years is what Hallyx said, so yeah....

There is however, one MORE concept I can do with this......get ready, it's gonna blow your socks off. So I was thinking, I could, theoretically do this, have my main tank, the big pretty one be the Brackish/Estuary tank while having two smaller tanks, each being half the size of my main tank one being a planted freshwater aquarium and the other be a saltwater aquarium.

I still would LOVE to do the hemisphere zones on the earth play a role with the tanks too, but that could, _maybe_ be sacrificed. I could do my main tank be a temperate estuary/brackish swamp - while one or the other (my freshwater and saltwater tank) be the arctic, cold water tank, and the other be a tropical, warm water tank - whichever one would be easier to achieve.

So yeah, here's the third concept in a nutshell

*Example *

60 gallon - Brackish water
---------------------------------------
30 gallon - Freshwater
30 gallon - Saltwater

Optional, if I could still do the hemisphere zones as well - just a thought, what do you guys think?


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## Chesh

lol, venturing off to new lands. . . XP
Tank inspiration is such a lovely thing, isn't it!??? Don't lose your enthusiasm, we love it!

. . . there is no number of years experience requirement, hun. It depends on how committed/focused you are to doing the research and learning - both about your current tank, and future ones. . . 

One of the best bits of advice I can give regarding ANY tank is to _go slowly_. 

Those tanks that have been grown bit by bit over time, and with a lot of prior research put in - are ALWAYS the best and healthiest. Taking the time to learn and do it right REALLY shows in the end result, and brings much more satisfaction to the owner. 

I know it's hard! Believe me - there are so many fun things I want to do with tanks!!! I just have to remind myself that I've got YEARS ahead of me to explore this amazing underwater world! For right now, I'm thrilled to learn all that I can from my current setups - I've had some of these animals for almost two years, now - and I'm still learning more about them every day!


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## Flear

instead of biotopes, i've been looking up self-sustaining aquariums

first, ... there is no information on self-sustaining aquariums

over the last year and a half i've found enough basics to think (or delude myself) that maybe i'll be able to do this

it took me 9 months to find a fish i am hoping i can try, the florida flagfish, ... right diet type i am looking for, unfortunately it's known for not knowing when it's eaten enough, it is known for eating food just because it's there.

it's a constant mix of what do you want and what do you end up with.

i've been looking for over a year and a half, and there is still more i need to find

it's plenty alright to take a long time to find what your after for your tanks, ... but there is no rush, and what you are searching for now may not be what you settle on.

unlike my idea, your idea has lots of options, ... find a fish you like, 10 gallons i do believe you're going to have a species specific tank, as far as fish are concerned, you could have lots of other inhabitants in the tank you don't realize now.

take it easy on yourself, ... if you want a cold-water tank, ... i've heard of one that 12celcius is summer tempurature for the fish, i do not know if it's salt, fresh, or brackish. (i don't remember anything more than this about the fish)

find the fish you want, then look up what it wants, what tempuratures, salt/fresh, diet, etc.

if your going to settle on a 10 gallon for each type, ... look up only one fish at a time so you can focus on it

maybe you will have 3 freshwater tanks, or 3 brackish, or 3 salt, maybe 3 cold or 3 warm, maybe the tanks will be the same in this regard, but you are stuck on 2 or more different fish that are not compatible, and you don't want to turn your back on either.

just find a fish, then build your tank around it.

deciding what you want the fish to live in, then searching for the fish, is a little harder unless you want someone else to decide your fish for you.


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## Squatchmen

Flear said:


> instead of biotopes, i've been looking up self-sustaining aquariums


Ah! Dude, that's sick! You gave me another idea - I could make my main tank a self sustained aquarium! 

I could have the 3 smaller tanks be biotopes that I'd always have to maintain, but my main tank could be self sustained. 

.........But than again, this might turn into something Chesh said.....a Paludarium

That was a curve ball, but luckily I dodged that poo HAHA

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So you're saying, for as long as I've been fishkeeping, it took you the same amount of time to find a fish for your experiment? Yeah, you're right, it's not like there are in fact deadlines, so I could take a breather and just enjoy what I have in front of me

Thanks for the support on my cold water biotope tank - I know I can get strictly cold water fish, and not just seasonal fish (temperate) 

Got your point about looking at fish first before doing the tank itself, and I think I might just decide for myself what's best (or at least most of the time) and then come here and filter my results. I think that could work


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## Flear

a self-sustaining tank is a precarious goal
a set of tanks is easier
what i've heard, (for seperate tanks), ... your looking at 6 tanks total to cover if anything crashes and to make sure there is enough to go around), ...

i've heard on persons arbitrary desicion to have a regular tank, not vacuum the bottom and let things do their stuff for a year (so enough detritus accumulates in the substrate) before thinking of trying self-sustaining

i've heard lots, i've been searching for a year and a half, ... you could probably get away with things like shrimp or clams and invertebrates a lot easier, ... but even at flagfish size, ... algae is your friend, smaller than flagfish algae may be your only plant that won't overgrow your tank, ... snails are nice as they will eat dead leaves and such, ... there's a whole lot to consider if your seriously thinking about a self-sustaining tank. 

not to tell you 'no', ... but i'll tell you no for now, get your small biotopes going, learn, experience, learn more, and then do lots of research, and more research


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## Chesh

+10 to poo ~.^ 

Flear is right, absolutely. Leave yourself open to new ideas, take the time and do the research before settling. It's going to be a fun ride, and if you pull this off right, whenever these tanks go up, it's going to be pretty awesome 

Everything depends on the animals you end up with for this setup. You need to do a LOT of research before deciding on just any old fish!! A 10g tank offers you FAR more options than your 5g dream did. If you choose the right fish, you actually can have a community tank - I think BWG put up quite a few suggestions. Nano fish are AMAZING. But they are so very frail and sensitive. Some of them make our rams look tough as goldfish! >.< So you'll want to be sure you have the skills to maintain these small tanks perfectly before bringing them home. Smaller tanks are always more difficult than larger ones by default.  Species only, or specimen tanks are another really neat way to go - I have the feeling you may ultimately end up with both - but am thinking it's a way off yet. That's okay! In the meantime we dream and learn all we can, neh?

As far as the self-sustaining aquarium is concerned, be wary. As Flear eluded to above - this may be a myth! Just learn what you can. And? AND?! Paludariums = awesome. There are SO many different options. Half the fun of setting up a tank is learning about them!


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## Tolak

Ten years ha! It all depends in what sort of education you pack into the time you have available to dedicate towards seeing your end results. It reminds me of the story of the two young guys, the summer before they go into high school. They both want to try out for the basketball team. One guy practices granny shots over his head, 10 hours daily, every day. The other guy plays with & against his older brother & his friends for 5 hours a day. Who do you think has a better chance of making the team?

Don't be granny shot guy. All knowledge is not found online. Get involved with a local club, several if possible. The folks heavily involved with multiple tank fishrooms, breeding, buying & selling, coming up with innovative ideas & seeing them through don't have the time for online nonsense. I'm one of the few that was brought up with electronics, so naturally fell into computers among other gadgets. I can name a dozen local guys with 20-40 tank fishrooms who rarely even bother with e-mail, but are seriously my go to guys when an idea or some such pops up. Find these folks, I have yet to find one that isn't willing to talk shop, some for endless hours. Plan on spending some serious cash on gas driving to events, besides the knowledge available you'll get great deals on gear & supplies. Grab a friend, in a few years you'll be telling us how things should roll, as well as having an endless supply of fish road trip stories. I'm surprised none of mine have involved the cops, yet, it's been close that's for sure.

For your arctic idea find a used lobster tank. These are double pane tanks, many have an integrated refrigeration unit. They won't be cheap, even used. I wouldn't consider anything smaller than a 50 gallon for this project. They cost money to run, and weigh as much as a volkswagon, these things turned me off from the idea years ago.


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## Squatchmen

@Flear - Meh, self sustaining tanks don't interest me anymore......maybe one day I'll find a way to do that, maybe when I'm older and wiser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Chesh - Thanks, I try, and this I'll be short and sweet (technology = huge lifespan increase)

I hope I live long enough to try out other great stuff and maybe I could even be pioneer in a new technique for say fishkeeping, or something outside the aquarium (still animal based)

Who the bleep knows! I would be ok having my tanks be a species only, I'll look at my options, would be cool to have my main tank be a community tank while my biotope tanks are species only - nice contrast

I thought about that too, could be a myth
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Tolak - Ok, I'm definitely going to be the guy plays with & against his older brother & his friends for 5 hours a day. 

I'll look into going to events, clubs, and get my hands dirty with this stuff, that's funny because I was brought up with electronics as well, and my second biggest hobby are video games, can't wait for the 22nd for the Xbox One!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As of right now, before I go head first into another day looking up fish, this is the list of fish that I looked up so far, I need to filter out any and all fish that might be arctic (not doable) and any temperate (subtropical, I don't like) so only coldwater, nothing more, nothing less.

- Two Horned Sculpin
- Lake Chub
- Northern Leatherback Chub
- Darter Fish
- Ninespine Stickleback
- Slimy Sculpin
- Spoonhead Sculpin
- Three-spined Stickleback
- White Cloud Mountain Minnow
- Sunfish (?)
- Shiner fish
- Minnows
- Bitterling fish
- Archer fish
- Gudgeons
- Gambusia
- Dace fish
- Hillstream Loach
- Rasbora fish
- Gobies (?)

Other critters

- Lymnaea Elodes snail 
- Murrary Crayfish


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## BWG

Subtropical is an aquarium running from 64-72 and varying a bit due to the seasons. No idea what YOUR definition is for half the things you say. Best of luck though in your research.


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## Squatchmen

BWG said:


> Subtropical is an aquarium running from 64-72 and varying a bit due to the seasons. No idea what YOUR definition is for half the things you say. Best of luck though in your research.


Thanks......


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## Flear

technology doesn't = life span increase
if you are choosing technology to replace something biological, it's a loose-loose-loose
more expensive initial, more expensive to maintain, does not do as good a job. may make your fish more stressed
takes a great deal more time

if you are choosing technology to satisfy something that cannot be done biologically, it's win-win

if you are choosing technology for convenience, ... just don't
there are automatic fish feeders, great for vacations, ... but then you don't pay attention to the eating behaviors of your fish as much.

some places technology is good, other times not so much, ... just be careful


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## Tolak

Tech is a judgement call once you get more advanced. Biologically I can feel the tank temperature, and judge close enough the replacement water I'm hosing in. When I find a digital herp thermometer with an external probe I can duct tape to my faucet & monitor refill temperature when I do other things, well, it is technology for convenience when I've got 20-30 tanks running. That $12 thermometer is a time saver, time is money. There are no big tricks to this aquatics nonsense, just a million little ones.


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## Chesh

Squatch? May I ask what criteria you're using as you're digging up these fish suggestions? . . .some of these seem really far off target for any of these setups, though I admit to not being terribly familiar with all of them. 

There are a_ LOT_ of fish in the freshwater sea. . . you have to narrow things down a bit! O.O

May I make a suggestion? 

I think it will be MUCH easier for you if you focus on ONE tank at a time. . . 

Pick a tank, any tank. Figure out the basics, and then start doing research into what fish would meet the requirements for it - be sure to check the size of the fish as well as the recommended tank sizes, temperature range is important, space requirements, water hardness. . . there is SO much to look into before setting up any tank, even more so when they're very specialized like what you're trying to do.


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## Squatchmen

@Flear - No, you didn't get what I meant, I made it really vague, sorry - human augmentation - is that more specific? 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Tolak - Same as Flear
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Chesh - The criteria that I'm using while digging around? Nothing. HAHAHA

Down below is a pretty good size list that's narrowed down, also I AM working on one tank at a time, I'm working on my Arctic/Freshwater tank (I say Arctic because it's cool nickname but is soo not true at the same time)

I know, I have a very narrowed down list of pure coldwater/freshwater fish now, and all I have to do is pick which ones and than look up their requirements
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is my list so far for fish:

- Lake Chub
- Northern Leatherside Chub
- White Cloud Mountain Minnow 
- Banded Sunfish
- Blue Spotted Sunfish
- Black Banded Sunfish
- Bigeye Chub
- Torrent Sucker
- Black Jumprock
- Stoneroller Minnow
- Redside Dace
- Rainbow Dace
- Gambusia
- Hillstream Loach

Others

- Lymnaea Elodes
- Murrary Crayfish
- Micro crabs
- Ghost Shrimp


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## Squatchmen

So I have a HUGE list of coldwater fish, but I narrowed them down to the general fish and need to know if they are compatible or not, here they are:

Fish

- Chub
- Minnow
- Sunfish
- Dace
- Loach
- Shiner
- Darter

Other animals

- Ramshorn snail
- Ghost shrimp
- Dwarf Mudpuppy
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks


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## Flear

for community friendly,
-some are community friendly provided the other tank-mates look different (territory/competition instincts kick in)
-some are species specific
-others are open to everything (provided they won't get eaten or eat other fish)

snails, be carefull as what was 5 turns into 1000 before you know it, and without anything to eat the snails you'll always have 1000+

loaches, are usually community friendly

the smallest loaches i know of that will eat snails that are community friendly and not on the endangered species list, the zebra loach, adult size 4" ... don't get a clown loach as they reach 16", ... unless you have a tank large enough, (150 gallon or larger)

the other fish i'd have to look up and don't know anything about by heart


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## Chesh

Squatchmen said:


> @Chesh - The criteria that I'm using while digging around? Nothing. HAHAHA. . .
> . . .all I have to do is pick which ones and than look up their requirements


*giggle* You're doing this BACKWARD from the way I would!!! FIRST get the requirements, then find the fish to match!!!

You *think* you've narrowed your list down, buuuuut. . . hrm. 

. . . there are many, many fish that fall into each category you have listed here, and from fish to fish the differences can be huge! I'm not the best (okay maybe the worst!) when it comes to fishy classification, so consider this as an example to try to get you to understand (and forgive any errors). . . a super easy example to pick off your list is "Minnow"

There are literally THOUSANDS of different species that can be referred to as minnows! I think true minnows are members of the cyprinid family - but so are daces, at least some chubs and shiners - along with so many others - so many that it isn't even worth trying to name them all, and many members of this group are found commonly enough in the fish shop! I'm pretty sure cyprinids is one of the biggest (if not THE biggest) fishy families there are! Soooooo :/ Just saying 'minnow' isn't really saying very much, unfortunately. 

Do you happen to know which fish you're referring to specefically? I can help you to check and see if it will be okay for your setup, but you need to narrow this down to one or two specific fish minnows, loaches, darters, etc. While you're looking them up and getting names, take a few to look into their requirements - how large do they grow? What temperature water are they comfortable in? Most of the time you'll find a minimum tank size listed for the species, too. 

If I were you, I'd spend a bit of time digging through our freshwater fish profiles. You should easily be able to verify the basic requirements of many of the fish you're looking into - and to be honest, most of them will likely to be crossed off the list with very little research.

Again, back to the criteria! You_ need _some, or you'll NEVER get anywhere!!! So think about what you want from this particular tank, and as you read through the profiles, take note of the specifics, for example, keep your eyes opened for this type of information:

* Max Size: is this fish small enough to comfortably live out it's life in a 10 gallon tank (20" x 10" x 12" L/W/H)
* Temperature requirements: Does this fish fit into the temperature range you have chosen for this tank (BWG has posted saying that 64-72F is considered 'subtropical,' which I think is what you are going for with this particular tank?)
* Water hardness: Even if you're willing to shift water paramaters, it's easiest to go with animals that will do well in the water you have in-tap already
* Social Requirements: Does this fish need to be kept in a group (if so, how many to a minimum group, and can you keep a group in a tank this size). Is this fish best kept alone, species-only? 
* Aggression: Will this fish do well in a community with other types of fish, or will it need to be kept alone
* Dietary requirements: Some fish require live foods, or only eat algae - be sure to pay attention to this!
* Water flow: Does this fish come from a rushing river, or the calmer waters of a lake? This will make a very big difference on how you set up this tank, and what animals are able to live here - mixing the two will lead to unhappy fish. . . !


This is really just a quick list written down to help give you an idea of the kinds of things you need to be paying attention to - I'm sure I've forgotten some! But if you keep these in mind as you search through the profiles, you'll hopefully begin to narrow your list down to a few possible candidates - and from there, we can better help you based on our own experiences and understanding of these fish in particular. . .

Hope that helps??!


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