# 40 gallon reef



## fishesfriend

I got a 40 gallon breeder.


These are stocking *Ideas !!!! *not the stocking list.

a goby shrimp pair
royal gramma
Mandarin goby
clown pair
firefish
yellow headed jawfish
yellow headed sleeper goby
trio of banggaii cardinals
cintron goby
green clown goby
I think I will order 50 pounds of key largo dry rock. Then seed it with base rock


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## Pasfur

You need to eliminate the Mandarin Goby from your possible fish list. This fish will not survive in a 40 gallon tank. The extreme amounts of copepods & amphipods consumed by this fish in a day are not practical for a small tank.


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## fishesfriend

Ok the list is down to

a shrimp goby pair 
clown pair
firefish
yellow headed jawfish
yellow headed sleeper goby
banggaii cardinal trio of youngsters
cintron goby ( what is the proper spelling) 
clown goby

I know this. The tank sould be here on tuesday.
the tank stand is not done.
I can't have an external sump. maby an internal.
I need a type of food that can be used like flake food.(can I use flake food if it is not the staple in the diet?)


I don't know
Where should I get my water from.
Pasfur, Is key largo rock ok? I will proably get 50 pounds and seed with live rock.


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## JohnnyD

fishesfriend said:


> Ok the list is down to
> 
> a shrimp goby pair
> clown pair
> firefish
> yellow headed jawfish
> yellow headed sleeper goby
> banggaii cardinal trio of youngsters
> cintron goby ( what is the proper spelling)
> clown goby
> 
> I know this. The tank sould be here on tuesday.
> the tank stand is not done.
> I can't have an external sump. maby an internal.
> I need a type of food that can be used like flake food.(can I use flake food if it is not the staple in the diet?)
> 
> 
> I don't know
> Where should I get my water from.
> Pasfur, Is key largo rock ok? I will proably get 50 pounds and seed with live rock.



I don't want to answer for Pasfur, but I do know he often recommends the Key Largo rock from marcorocks to many people, including me.


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## fishesfriend

I am mainly focusing on making my list of fish smaller.


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## Cody

o hai there...

I have a 40G as well, and keep the following:
-2 Clowns
-1 Mystery Wrasse
-1 Bicolor Blenny
-1 Yellow Watchman Goby
-1 Cherub Pygmy Angel
I love my setup. They all get along great and each have amazing personality. 

From your list, I would eliminate/select... (Personally) 

-a goby shrimp pair = Would work Great. Yasha Hashe's or high-bandes are my personal favorites. 
-royal gramma = 
-Mandarin goby =* Eliminate*, for above reason. 
-clown pair = Obviously great.
-firefish = Great. 
-yellow headed jawfish = Needs a DEEP sandbed in order to thrive, unless you make a custom burrow.
-yellow headed sleeper goby = Hard to keep. *Eliminate.*
-trio of banggaii cardinals = You will most likely get fry eventually. 
-cintron goby = Size issue (Small). *Eliminate.
*-green clown goby = Stays too small for a 40G in my opinion. *Eliminate*

I would get the clown pair, goby shrimp pair, a firefish, and the trio of Banggaiis personally.


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## fishesfriend

Cody I like that stocking idea! Could I switch the firefish for a royal gramma, without problems?


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## fishesfriend

Could a long spine urchin survive in my tank?


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## Pasfur

All of the advice above is fabulous. Thanks Cody for catching the Citron Goby...definitely not a fish for this tank.

I used Key Largo Rock in my 180. I have been very happy with it and found it very easy to work with.

Flake food is fine. As for a staple, i don't believe anything should be a staple. You need 6 to 8 different foods and should just rotate. I feed frozen Angel Formula, Brine, Squid, Marine Cuzine, Plankton, plus Garlic enhanced pellets and several different flake foods. Plus algae sheets daily.


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## Cody

Yep, the Gramma is a great substitute for the firefish.

I would also like to direct you to Purple Firefish, or even the expensive Helfrich Firefish ifyou are into purple. All four choices (firefish, firefish, firefish, gramma) would work great.


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## fishesfriend

Ok I think I will ... choose later but it is between firefish and royal gramma. Only time will tell.

Will a long spine urchin servive? I've been gathering data on the banggaii cardinals and they release there young into them.

Would these lights be ok? Click Here


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## wake49

fishesfriend said:


> Would these lights be ok? Click Here


The 156 watt (36" x 8") will be a better investment.

AndI would forget the urchin.


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## Cody

The urchin is fine, but I honestly wouldnt do it. They get HUGE.

I actually have three sets of the 36" 72W lights of that you just posted. I can grow pretty much whatever I want, and I have seen growth on everything. I love them, and I get a lot of variety in the bulbs because they are T5.


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## onefish2fish

the bangaiis will most likely kill the weaker of the 3 in time. in the wild large groups of these fish is common but in tanks i suggest a mated pair. try to find an already TANK BRED pair. this is your best bet for breeding.

as for urchins, alittle aqua putty stuck with a few toothpicks works best.


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## fishesfriend

ok, banggai's are my favorite fish and I have an exra tank to put the weaker one in.


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## fishesfriend

what type of clown fish can I get? What invertibates can I get? How many invertebrates do I get?

Can I use tap water, if I use a decloranator?


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## fishesfriend

Tank is delayed intell next teusday. The stand looking good. Just needs to get the legs atached to the top, and get painted.


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## Cody

Clowns: Most are fine, but I would personally stick with Percula or Occelaris. They are the most common, and least aggressive.

Inverts: Shrimp, Snails, Hermits, Urchins, etc. Amount depends on what you get.

Tap water: NO. You need RO/DI water.


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## fishesfriend

What is RO/DI? I think I will get occelaris.


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## fishesfriend

So what is RO/DI water?


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## wake49

RO/Di water is water that was purified first by Reverse Osmosis (hence the RO), and then run through a DeIonizer (the DI). This is one of the more pure forms of water, without contaminants.


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## fishesfriend

so if I got water from a petstore would that be ok?


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## fishesfriend

would this be a good cleaner crew?

1-2 fire shrimps
1-1 coral banded shrimp
4-5 turbo snails 
4-5 nassaruis snails

other inverts 
1-1 scarlet skunk cleaner shrimp
1-1 pistol shrimp

Is this a good invert list?


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## Pasfur

I think you have to many snails. I would expect them to slowly starve to death. I would cut the numbers in half.

Also, be cautious with the Coral Banded Shrimp mixing with other shrimp. They can be aggressive. Some hobbyists have even reported CBS attacking fish. I have personally witnessed very aggressive pursuing of small fish, but the CBS is never quick enough to catch them.


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## fishesfriend

so drop the snails number to 3 or 2 of each and drop the coral banded shrimp and I should be ok with the inverts being peiceful to each other and the fish? If i decided not to get clownfish what could I add? I will be making a build thread later.


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## fishesfriend

Can I use an under ground filter?


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## Pasfur

fishesfriend said:


> Can I use an under ground filter?


I hope this question is not serious. If it is, then you have not even started researching a complicated project. 

Here is a good place to start:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...-filtration-101-how-differs-freshwater-31955/

You are joking, right?


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## fishesfriend

I misread something, sorry bad question.


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## Pasfur

Pasfur said:


> I hope this question is not serious. If it is, then you have not even started researching a complicated project.
> 
> Here is a good place to start:
> http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...-filtration-101-how-differs-freshwater-31955/
> 
> You are joking, right?



Reading again this morning, sorry if my response was harsh. Hang out here for a while and you will see that some people post these types of questions just to be rude. I would never expect that from you, which is what got my blood boiling a bit. Again, my apologies.

Now, back to the question. I have seen some applications of undergravel filters modified for other purposes. Purposes which I personally disagree with, but at least that make the question a little more reasonable. Were you reading on plenum systems? Or was this just one of those brain dead moments? Hey, it happens. For about 10 seconds last Saturday I thought that Louisville might upset Kentucky in Rupp Arena. Yeah. Duh, brain dead.


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## fishesfriend

It was a dead brain moment. Your response was fine. Back to stocking.

1-2 fire shrimp
2-3 turbo snails 
2-3 nassaruis snails

other inverts 
1-1 scarlet skunk cleaner shrimp
1-1 pistol shrimp

so these inverts should be fine with these fish?

3 banggai cardinals
2 oellaris clowns
1 YWG
1 royal gramma

are all of these are reef safe?


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## Pasfur

Looks fine to me. And generally speaking the livestock is easy to keep as well. You should know that Royal Gramma are ich magnets until established, so do NOT skip the quarantine. Once established, they are very easy to keep.


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## fishesfriend

ok. Do I have to get my lights that can have corals to start with?


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## wake49

If you are not doing corals right away, then buy a simple fixture. You can always upgrade your lighting when you decide to start adding corals. Don't forget that water quality is more important than light if you are considering corals, and different types of corals require different lighting parameters.

WHat kind of corals would you plan on doing?


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## fishesfriend

zoas, mushrooms, polyps, what is a kenya tree?


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## wake49

Those are all soft corals, or "softies" in the trade. These corals rely more on outside food sources, such as Marine Snow and Oyster Feast. Great beginner corals, and although light isn't vital, it always helps to have a good light source when doing any type of coral.


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## fishesfriend

So do I need to feed them? If so what do I feed them? I also plan for an anenome.


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## fishesfriend

ignore the post above.

Can I feed rotofiers? I also plan for an anenome


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## fishesfriend

how do I use activated carbon, I have a penguin bio-wheel 150?


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## Pasfur

fishesfriend said:


> how do I use activated carbon, I have a penguin bio-wheel 150?


Before we continue forward, can we see some pictures? We have been doing a 3 page long Q&A session, but after reading this entire thread I don't feel that we have given you much important information. It has just been very random. A picture of the current set up would really give us what we need to give you some guidance.


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## fishesfriend

I'm in texas to see my bro graduate from basic training. He is going to be in the airforce. I will be back on monday I will get pictures then. To catch you guys up. The stand needs to be painted and the tank is empty.


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## fishesfriend

can't get the pics for now. I was reading a thread on the fish selection ( by Pasfur), and in which order should I add my fish. 

I'm at 
1. clean up crew
2. clowns
3. goby pair
4. royal gramma/firefish 
5. banggai cardinalfishes

is this good?


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## wake49

fishesfriend said:


> can't get the pics for now. I was reading a thread on the fish selection ( by Pasfur), and in which order should I add my fish.
> 
> I'm at
> 1. clean up crew
> 2. clowns
> 3. goby pair
> 4. royal gramma/firefish
> 5. banggai cardinalfishes
> 
> is this good?


I would say this is good; the royal gramma and the clowns are probably the most aggressive on this list. I would add the CUC, (is goby pair=shrimp/goby pair, or pair of gobies? and what kind?) goby, banggais, clowns and then the gramma.


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## Pasfur

I agree with Wake. Also, make sure to give that Gramma a good 3 weeks minimum in Q. They are very ich prone, but very hardy after acclimation to the display.


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## fishesfriend

It is a goby with a shrimp. What size Q. tank should I use? How long should a Q. period on my other fish be? Pasfur would a six-line wrasse be an acceptable in this size of tank, if I drop the gramma?


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## wake49

A six-line will be _extremely_ aggressive in a tank this small. I had trouble with one in a 46 gallon tank. He chased out a fairy wrasse, a firefish, and was overall just mean to everyone else. This is a Reef-friendly fish, but unfortunately just not a _fish_-friendly fish. I would put this fish either alone in a 30 gallon to 65 gallon, or in an aggressive tank over 46 gallons, or in a tank over 125 gallons with peaceful fish.


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## Pasfur

wake49 said:


> A six-line will be _extremely_ aggressive in a tank this small. I had trouble with one in a 46 gallon tank. He chased out a fairy wrasse, a firefish, and was overall just mean to everyone else. This is a Reef-friendly fish, but unfortunately just not a _fish_-friendly fish. I would put this fish either alone in a 30 gallon to 65 gallon, or in an aggressive tank over 46 gallons, or in a tank over 125 gallons with peaceful fish.


I agree 100%. The Six Line Wrasse in my 54 reef is an absolute terror.


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## fishesfriend

I'm going to take that as a no.

So moving on what size Quarantine do I use.
How long do I use it on just any fish.


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## Pasfur

I like a minimum of a 10 gallon Q. I keep all fish in Q for a minimum of 3 weeks, with 4 being more often than not. I really observe the fish for the last week or 2, and want to see it become very confident and eager to feed prior to placing it into the display.


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## fishesfriend

So with my tank stocking. Would a 10 gallon be good. Do the banggais need to be seperated?


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## Pasfur

A 10 gallon is fine for most fish in display tanks under 6 feet in length. You will be fine with a 10 gallon. I personally have no issues adding multiple fish to a Q tank at the same time, and would personally buy the Bangai's at the same time.


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## fishesfriend

Ok thank you. So do I start with a silinaty of 1.016 and rase it up slowly to whatever the diplay is, or just stat with the display's salinity?


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## Pasfur

fishesfriend said:


> Ok thank you. So do I start with a silinaty of 1.016 and rase it up slowly to whatever the diplay is, or just stat with the display's salinity?


I start at 1.016. After 2 weeks with a new fish, I then begin 10% daily water changes until the salinity has reached 1.024, matching the display. Keep in mind, there are many variations on this idea, this is just my approach.


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## fishesfriend

Ok sounds good. Can't wait to start! I will make a build tread.


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## fishesfriend

One more question how long do I extend the quaratine pariod if a fish gets ick or and sickness.


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## Pasfur

fishesfriend said:


> One more question how long do I extend the quaratine pariod if a fish gets ick or and sickness.


It depends on what is wrong with the fish. For ich, I generally wait 4-6 weeks after the fish is "cured" and shows no further symptoms prior to introducing it into the display. 

If you do a good job in selecting healthy fish, hopefully this will not be an issue you deal with often!


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## fishesfriend

Do I quarantine the first fish I add.


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## Pasfur

fishesfriend said:


> Do I quarantine the first fish I add.


Yes, but I generally only Q the first fist for 10 to 14 days, so that I have time to observe the fish to ensure there are no parasites carried from the LFS to my display.


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## fishesfriend

ok my first fish is going to be the goby shrimp pair do I seperate them?
Can I feed ghost shrimp and guppy fry?


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## fishesfriend

At what levels do I keep the calcium and alkanity?


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## Pasfur

fishesfriend said:


> Can I feed ghost shrimp and guppy fry?


I don't understand why you are asking this question? Feed to what???

Alkalinity should be between 8 and 12 dkh. Calcium at 400-460ppm.


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## fishesfriend

Forget the gupppy fry. Can I feed my fish ghost shrimp?


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## Pasfur

Ghost Shrimp have almost no nutritional value. They should only be used to incite a predator to eat if the predator absolutely refuses to eat all other offerings.


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## fishesfriend

Ok.


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## fishesfriend

So do I seperate the goby and shrimp? Goby will be first fish. I plan for yellow watchman goby.


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## Pasfur

I would not Q the shrimp, due to the stress of variation in specific gravity. This applies if you are using my technique for Q.


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## fishesfriend

I won't be changing the salinity. So will the shrimp be ok and I think I will get black saddle back clowns.


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## Pasfur

fishesfriend said:


> I won't be changing the salinity. So will the shrimp be ok and I think I will get black saddle back clowns.


If you are not going to change the salinity, then I would Q the shrimp with the clown. 

For the record, I strongly recommend starting with a lower salinity. This is one of the primary advantages of a Q, in my opinion.


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## Bluetangclan

In place of the gramma I would suggest its cousin, the Blackcap basslet, cool purple and black fish, same requirements.

When you get to the cards, make sure they eat flake at the store before you buy them. A good number of them wont.

Get your clowns at the same time and get them young. Stay away from maroon and tomato clowns, too aggressive.



Ooops didnt notice there was more than one page. If any of my info is out of date with what you have already done, then ignore it heheh


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## fishesfriend

Ok, I think I will get a fire fish, do I add him before the clowns, or banggais


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## fishesfriend

would black saddle clowns be acceptable?


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## Pasfur

fishesfriend said:


> Ok, I think I will get a fire fish, do I add him before the clowns, or banggais


Yes, add him first.



fishesfriend said:


> would black saddle clowns be acceptable?


I wouldn't try it. They are a bit more aggressive and you just don't' have the space to take any chances.


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## fishesfriend

So i add the firefish as the very first fish or before the banggai cardinals?


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## Pasfur

fishesfriend said:


> So i add the firefish as the very first fish or before the banggai cardinals?



I don't think it will make a difference either way. The Banggai Cardinals are one of the easiest of all fish to keep, being mostly captive raised, so it might be smart to add them first.


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## fishesfriend

ok. I will be goin to my lfs to get a heater korla 1 and a glass top.


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## fishesfriend

I went to my lfs and got a heater and sand. I also need to get a my Q tank setup. I have serveral 10 gallon tanks how do I clean them out. Like just water, water and viniger... etc.

On the bright side I have water in my tank. My stand is awesome! The best is my lfs will order in a trio of banggai cardinals in for me! Pics and build thread soon.


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## Pasfur

I just clean tanks with hot water and a razor blade to scrape the inside glass of any heavy calcium buildup.


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## fishesfriend

How mush sand will I need?

sorry if this has been posted allready.


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## fishesfriend

Could I replace the 2 fire shrimp with a pair of harlequin shrimp?


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## Pasfur

For a sand bed, you will want to use 1'' or less, or a depth of 4-6''. I try to avoid anything between 1'' and 4'', as it often causes more harm than good, with detritus accumulation and inefficient denitrification.

Harlequin Shrimp do not live in captivity due to dietary demands.


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## fishesfriend

ok, Fire shrimp it is. How many pounds sand do I need to get four inches? I have 20lbs for now.


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## fishesfriend

I forgot, there was a minor set back so the tank can't have anything that does not eat algea ontill some time in april.


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## Pasfur

fishesfriend said:


> ok, Fire shrimp it is. How many pounds sand do I need to get four inches? I have 20lbs for now.


I don't know. There is a formula out there somewhere. I can generally eyeball it when looking at the bags. Measure what you have and go from there.


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## fishesfriend

Ok, pics tomorrow I hope


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## Highland lake13

For the sand bed depth: Sand Bed


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## fishesfriend

sorry about the pics tomarrow post and no pics after. There is a chances there will be pics tomorrow.


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## fishesfriend

Pictures!!:-D


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## Pasfur

That's what i'm talking about! There is nothing like the fresh smell of a new saltwater tank, just after the salt is mixed.


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## fishesfriend

What would my options be if I didn't get clownfish( like what fish)? Every one and there dog has a clownfish.

Any way I went to a place today and they had 3 fish tanks from what I could tell there were 2 180's and 1 50 gallon cube.

In the first tank (? 180)there was a reef set up contaning 1 unicorn , 2 yellow, and 1 regal tang, 2 heniochus black & white butterflyfish, 1 six line wrasse, and a sand sifting goby.

In the second tank (? 180)it was fish only w/ a snail, contaning 1 porcupine puffer, 1 blonde Naso tang, 1 pink tail trigger, and a lion fish ( type unknown), and this snail which was 3in in diameter.

in the third tank( 50 cube) it was a species tank with just clown fish. 9 clowns is what I could count.


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## fishesfriend

I will not be putting fire shrimp in this tank as of my thoughts now. Any thoughts on what fish could replace the clowns?


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## fishesfriend

I think I will put a longspine urchin in and take some snails out, and replace the fire fish with an orange line cardinal.


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## Pasfur

Do you have the skimmer or live rock purchased yet? Keep in mind, the tank won't begin to mature until you get the rock in place.


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## fishesfriend

Yes, I am aware that it won't mature. No, I don't have rock or a skimmer. I plan on getting rock as fast as possible.


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## Pasfur

You should at least seed the sand bed. This will help with maturity. Did you do this already? I can't remember.

If not, just ask your LFS for a handful of live rock rubble at the bottom of the live rock vat. It will be very crushed, almost sand like, and totally useless for them. My LFS gives it to customers for free. It will be loaded with copepods and amphipods, etc, to help bring life to the sand. This would go a long way to helping the tank during this slow breaking in phase. And it will give you some life to look at... with a magnifying glass.


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## fishesfriend

No I have not done that next on my list tho. How much do I need is more better.They had uncured live rock and it had little white worms on they bigger rocks. Is that bad?


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## Pasfur

Given that you have no life in the tank, adding uncured rock won't hurt. Just don't do much. A few pounds, preferably of very porous rock.


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## fishesfriend

I went to my lfs and got a cup of live sand out of there coral tank for $3. I added it to the tank as soon as I got home.


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## Pasfur

fishesfriend said:


> I went to my lfs and got a cup of live sand out of there coral tank for $3. I added it to the tank as soon as I got home.


Perfect.


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## fishesfriend

And now I wait to get rock.


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## fishesfriend

On the rock matter I will get key largo, Should I get the 50 lbs of rock or the 40lbs of rock and 40lbs of sand? They are both the same price.


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## Pasfur

You already have sand, right? Am I lost? If you are satisfied with the existing sand bed, then just get rock. If you want a full 4'' to 6'' sand bed and you need more sand, then get rock and sand. But yes, i think you will eventually need 50 pounds anyway, using Key Largo. If you do Fiji then 40 pounds might be enough. I like the Key Largo better. It is easier to work with when designing the reef structure.


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## fishesfriend

Ok I will get 50lbs of key largo. Yes, I have a very thin sand bed for now. I think I would be happy with an inch sand bed. Would the goby( yellow watchman and pistol shrimp) survive in that depth of sand?


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## Pasfur

fishesfriend said:


> Ok I will get 50lbs of key largo. Yes, I have a very thin sand bed for now. I think I would be happy with an inch sand bed. Would the goby( yellow watchman and pistol shrimp) survive in that depth of sand?


It would, yes. But it would thrive in a deeper sand bed. You should order the 40/40.


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## fishesfriend

I will get that and maybe get 15-25 more lbs of rock when it is all established. I think a trio of peppermint shrimp would look good. Chances are I will not add the orange cardinal, but I will leave the urchin in my plan. I am dropping out the cardinal, because water quality should stay more stable yes? If not I will add a fire fish.


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## Pasfur

I don't see fish load as having a lot to do with water quality, especially in smaller aquariums. Before some one thinks I'm crazy let me explain. Generally in a marine tank the behavior of the fish will limit the number of fish long before you would even approach the limits of the filtration. So, if you want to eliminate the cardinal because you prefer other fish, then fine, but I don't think it will really impact water quality either way.


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## fishesfriend

Ok I thought it would. So, I think a firefish will look nice.


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## fishesfriend

Is there an articall out there about how to stock saltwater?


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## fishesfriend

Would an algea screen here, Be helpfull?


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## Pasfur

fishesfriend said:


> Is there an articall out there about how to stock saltwater?


Not that I'm aware of. But that can be taken care of. ;-)



fishesfriend said:


> Would an algea screen here, Be helpfull?


Algae scrubbers are popular with a select group in this hobby. You will find that very few people have much experience with them, and that purchasing one is more expensive than a protein skimmer.

However, if you are handy they are not complicated to build. Of course, protein skimmers are also pretty simple to build.

If you add an algae scrubber I would encourage you to run both a skimmer and scrubber. Perhaps this will give you some motivation to do just that:
http://www.ultimatereef.com/TOTM/2007_jan/


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## fishesfriend

ok I will build one. That tank is stunning.

Do I need to get 4" sand bed all at once?


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## Pasfur

I would add the sand bed all at once, yes. It will allow for the proper bacteria to develop at different depths within the sand.


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## Pasfur

fishesfriend said:


> Is there an articall out there about how to stock saltwater?


Let me know if this helps:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...h-compatability-creating-stocking-list-38579/ 8)


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## fishesfriend

Thank you, It helped.


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## njudson

Are you running a skimmer on this tank yet? I am considering a 40g breeder for my first tank so I've been keeping up with your thread. Just sent a guy an email responding to a craigslist post about an AquaC Remora hangon a few minutes ago.


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## fishesfriend

I don't have a skimmer yet. I just have sand. I will get rock soon( I hope )
I like the tank and what my stocking will be.


Sadly there is a chance that this tank my have to be freshwater.


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## fishesfriend

Will hermits eat corals, snails, or shrimp? If not I think I will get 7 or 8.


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## n1zjd

fishesfriend said:


> Will hermits eat corals, snails, or shrimp? If not I think I will get 7 or 8.


I cant say whether or not they EAT snails, but they are notorious for ripping snails from there shells for a new home. And I believe that they are reef safe, meaning they dont harm corals but Im not positive.


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## fishesfriend

Ok.
Is it possible to have

A pair of scarlet cleaner shrimp
A pair of fire shrimp
A trio of pepper 

in my tank( there will be a pistol shrimp)? This sounds like a lot to me, but I won't know if I don't ask.


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## fishesfriend

(see post above) Is that to many shrimp for my tank?


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## Pasfur

fishesfriend said:


> (see post above) Is that to many shrimp for my tank?


I am not the person to answer questions on shrimp compatibility. I will pm Wake49 and see if he can help.


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## fishesfriend

ok


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## wake49

fishesfriend said:


> Ok.
> Is it possible to have
> 
> A pair of scarlet cleaner shrimp
> A pair of fire shrimp
> A trio of pepper
> 
> in my tank( there will be a pistol shrimp)? This sounds like a lot to me, but I won't know if I don't ask.


I see no problem with seven shrimp in a 40 gallon tank. All three species are non-territorial, and overall peaceful. The "Fire" Shrimp is also called the "Blood-Red" or "Scarlet Cleaner" Shrimp. There are also "Scarlet Skunk Cleaner" Shrimp, which have the same basic fuction as the Fire Shrimp. They feed off of parasites that cling to fish, such as Ich and other nasty parasites. When they are not feeding from cleaning, they will eat anything else, such as microfauna, detritus and uneaten food. The Skunk Shrimp have a tendency to be more out in the open than the Fire Shrimp; I have had both and enjoy watching the Skunk more than the Fire Shrimp.

As far as Peppermint Shrimp go, they are really not a necessary addition to reef aquaria. Most people buy them as aiptasia control. Although sometimes a good form of aiptasia control, you have to buy them from the correct region and sometimes it takes half of a dozen or more to control it. They are a nocturnal shrimp, so you will not see them at all during the day (although sometimes they "hide" in the open if you are lucky).

What is the fish stocking list, to see if there are compatibilty issues there?


----------



## fishesfriend

It is

A pair of clowns
a trio of bangaiis tank bred or pair of tank breds hopefully
a Yellow watchman goby w/ pistol shrimp
a firefish or royal gramma.


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## Pasfur

No problems with the fish & shrimp. Just be aware that you do not want to substitute a BiColor Pseudochromis for the Royal Gramma. Very similar looking fish, but the Bicolor Pseudo will often nip shrimp.


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## fishesfriend

ok great


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## fishesfriend

one or two of these fish be a good replace ment for the gramma?


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## wake49

fishesfriend said:


> one or two of these fish be a good replace ment for the gramma?


You should be fine with just one of those. Blennies are moderate when it comes to aggression (I had a lawnmower bite me when I was siphoning out detritrus). I think he might want to tango with the Yellow Watchman, but most likely will be peaceful.


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## fishesfriend

I goin to wear gloves lol they have wasp like sting with there fangs.

I don't mean to be igornant but so I couldn't get a pair.


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## Pasfur

Yes, you should be fine with this fish. They are active and visible, but more of a rock dweller so they won't really be at odds with your current livestock. And they tend to be very sturdy fish.


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## fishesfriend

How many one or a pair


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## fishesfriend

I think 1 will be good


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## wake49

fishesfriend said:


> I think 1 will be good


I agree


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## fishesfriend

I can't decide on what fish to get ether

a firefish
a royal gramma 
a striped fang blenny


Ideas welcome.


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## wake49

I would go with the Fang Striped Blenny. That is one that we hear of less than the other two around here. It'll give you a little more uniqueness in your tank...


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## fishesfriend

When I get corals where do i put them (levels in the tank)?


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## wake49

What kind of corals?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fishesfriend

I will most likely get mushrooms, rics, zoas, softies.


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## wake49

These are placed generally anywhere. Mushrooms should be more shaded, and zoas and rics are medium light. Any placement you do should be fine
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fishesfriend

Were would A birds nest go. Is that a begginer coral?

Are clams easy to keep?


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## wake49

fishesfriend said:


> Were would A birds nest go. Is that a begginer coral?
> 
> Are clams easy to keep?


 Clams are not easy to keep. They require a LOT of light and are filter feeders. Most hobbyists are not set-up to care for clams.

Birdsnests are SPS. They require a lot of good light and spot feeding and pristine water conditions. This is a more experienced hobbyist's coral.


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## fishesfriend

Oo ok


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## fishesfriend

would this be good for lights if I get 2? here


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## n1zjd

While it may work for some softies, you can do alot better. I have 130 watts (2x65W) on my 29G reef. You want to aim for a minimum of 3 watts per gallon. I think you would be disappointed with two of those lights personally. You would do much better with one of these, http://www.marineandreef.com/Aqualight_Compact_Fluorescent_2X96W_36_Coralife_p/res53104.htm And its cheaper. This is the same light I have on my reef just bigger, http://www.marineandreef.com/Lunar_Aqualight_36_inch_Coralife_p/res53404.htm I love the lunar lights!


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## fishesfriend

I would like t-5 lights.


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## n1zjd

Then this is the minimum I would go with, http://www.marineandreef.com/WavePoint_36_HO_T5_Aquarium_Lighting_Fixture_p/rwp01002.htm


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## wake49

What are the dimensions of your tank? 

I know that there is a 40 breeder (36"x18"x16") and a 40 long (48"x13"x16"). I only ask because there is a T5HO out by Current USA, the Nova Extreme. This is an 8-bulb unit w/ Lunar lights. I know its pricey, but you can keep almost anything under it!


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## fishesfriend

it's 36"x18"x16"

Could my tank hold a pair of YWGs and a pistol shrimp, with all of my other choosen fish


Pair of clowns 
Trio/ pair of bangai cardinals
striped fang blenny


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## fishesfriend

Live rock/ 100lbs of sand is 10 days from being put in I hope.


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## wake49

fishesfriend said:


> it's 36"x18"x16"
> 
> Could my tank hold a pair of YWGs and a pistol shrimp, with all of my other choosen fish
> 
> 
> Pair of clowns
> Trio/ pair of bangai cardinals
> striped fang blenny


I see no problem with the pair of Watchman's and the Pistol with the other inhabitants.


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## fishesfriend

ok.


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## fishesfriend

Would this be good lights. @


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## wake49

This is a nice unit, I am more of a fan of the Nova Extreme SLR Fixture. You get more light output because of the Single Light Reflectors at the same wattage. Fluorescent tubes are only as good as the reflector, considering the bulb itself blocks 50% of the light. The single reflector directs that blocked light back towards te aquarium. I think the fixture you posted is one reflector for the four bulbs.


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## fishesfriend

You mean the 36" x 8" fixture right?
I'm also looking for good moon lights.


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## wake49

fishesfriend said:


> You mean the 36" x 8" fixture right?


Yes. 

The Nova extreme is a 4-bulb with moonlight's and I think contoured reflectors. I'll check when I get to a computer...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wake49

This fixture is put out by AquaticLife. My buddy has the HID version. This has indivually contoured reflectors, like the Nova Extreme or Nova Extreme Pro. It has moonlights and an integrated digital timer with one power cord. I would probably go for this version, or the 6-bulb version if I were looking for a new T5 light...


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## fishesfriend

I think I will go with the Nova Extreme SLR Fixture.


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## wake49

That SLR unit does not have moonlights though. That was why I suggested the AquaticLife Fixture. I personally would buy the Nova SLR fixture and add after-market moonlights.


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## fishesfriend

What are some after market moon lights.


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## wake49

Like these.


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## fishesfriend

How many would I need to get the shape of the fish, rocks, etc, to be visable.


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## wake49

It says every two feet so I would use two. (In fact, I used to use two on my 46 bow, a 36" long tank)


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## fishesfriend

Rock/sand ordered.


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## fishesfriend

Can mushrooms/ rics be placed on the sand or on rocks?


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## fishesfriend

If run into some money would these replace a watchman goby and the striped fang blenny?


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## Highland lake13

Unfortunately these aren't tropical fish so..... I would skip these, plus they are super expensive.


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## fishesfriend

Ok


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## fishesfriend

What temperature should I keep my tank at?


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## fishesfriend

could I get a jaw fish or is my sand bed to shallow?


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## Highland lake13

As for the temp that depends on what your want to keep but I keep my tanks between 77 and 81. If you REALLY wanted to keep the Brachiosaurus Blenny pair you couls keep your tank at 74-75, this however would probably not be a good solution because you might stress the other fish and corals. As for the jawfish I am not entirely sure but I think you can have one if your sandbed is more than 4". This is a guess that I think that I have heard somewhere but I am not entirely positive it is true so don't take it to heart.


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## fishesfriend

Highland, I don't mean to ignore you, i just want some with more experence to answer that perticular question.

Will my sand bed be deep enough for a yellow headed jaw fish?


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## fishesfriend

Highland lake, I don't mean to be rude. I would like someone with more experince.

Pasfur or Wake, Will my sand bed be deep enough for a yellow headed jawfish?


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## wake49

They like to burrow. You want to create a natural environment for your inhabitants. I would personally go for a deep sand bed, like highland said.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fishesfriend

I'm going for 4" sand bed.


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## fishesfriend

Will a jawfish be good in a 4" inch sand bed. To minamize fights I will not add an goby that digs.
I will ethier add
A pair of scooter blennies eating prepared foods
A pair of Mandarins eating perpared foods (there is a method to this "madness")

The "Madness"
First you suspend the Mandarin in a suspended breeders net in the quarentine tank. Then, you feed them copopods live brine shrimp. When or if they dicide to eat it the frozen brine very actively, you move on to frozen brine. Again when or if they dicide to eat it you move to a variety of frozen food. You releace them in to the quaritine to start there normal time. 
To answer the questions, yes not all mandarins dicide to eat the food at first, if they don't they simply stay in to the net or are take back to the store.


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## wake49

fishesfriend said:


> The "Madness"
> First you suspend the Mandarin in a suspended breeders net in the quarentine tank. Then, you feed them copopods live brine shrimp. When or if they dicide to eat it the frozen brine very actively, you move on to frozen brine. Again when or if they dicide to eat it you move to a variety of frozen food. You releace them in to the quaritine to start there normal time.
> To answer the questions, yes not all mandarins dicide to eat the food at first, if they don't they simply stay in to the net or are take back to the store.


This seem like a very stressful method to get a fish to do what you want it to do. A Mandarin's natural feeding habits are not only about what they eat, but also how they eat. They spend all day, grazing on rock and out of sight. I have a Mandarin. I barely ever see it. They keep to themselves and are mostly in the caves of your rockwork. 

I cannot condone the method as to how you plan on "train" a Mandarin. I feel it would be very stressful to both the fish and yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Highland lake13

+1 on the idea of not doing the mandarins. I think you will find it very hard keeping one nevermind keeping two. I have heard of people using this method to have mandarins eat prepared food but it can be so stressful that the fish develop an ich. So I would pass on the pair for this tank. sorry i am sure thats not what you wanted to hear and i hope i am not being to harsh.


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## fishesfriend

Ok so would the scooter blennies be ok?

I so the stocking list would be 

3 banggai cardinals (tank Breed)
2 Clowns (tank Breed)
2 scooter blennies
1 yellow headed jawfish


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## njudson

wake49 said:


> This seem like a very stressful method to get a fish to do what you want it to do. A Mandarin's natural feeding habits are not only about what they eat, but also how they eat. They spend all day, grazing on rock and out of sight. I have a Mandarin. I barely ever see it. They keep to themselves and are mostly in the caves of your rockwork.
> 
> I cannot condone the method as to how you plan on "train" a Mandarin. I feel it would be very stressful to both the fish and yourself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


An alternative to this would be to wait until this summer and talk to your LFS about captive breed Mandarins. ORA recently announced they are successfully breeding mandarins and raising them on pellets and other prepared foods.


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## wake49

fishesfriend said:


> Ok so would the scooter blennies be ok?
> 
> I so the stocking list would be
> 
> 3 banggai cardinals (tank Breed)
> 2 Clowns (tank Breed)
> 2 scooter blennies
> 1 yellow headed jawfish


Scooter Blennies have a diet similar to Mandarins, along with the way they are finnicky eaters. I think that you would have the same problem with the scooter blenny.

I think the rest of the list is fine, although some people think that two of those three bagaiis will kill each other.


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## wake49

njudson said:


> An alternative to this would be to wait until this summer and talk to your LFS about captive breed Mandarins. ORA recently announced they are successfully breeding mandarins and raising them on pellets and other prepared foods.


If that is the case then they have the biggest money maker on their hands since the invention of Microsoft! (maybe not that big, but it is huge...) This is a fish that a lot of people want, get, and then it starves to death. I hope that this is the case, do you have an article or link to reference this?


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## njudson

ORA Captive Breeding Mandarins

I didn't originally post a link because I don't know how this forum feels about linking to other forums. I know sometimes it is frowned upon.


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## wake49

I would think the responsible thing to do would be to sell G2 or G3 of these guys, as 1st Gen CB doesn't give you a whole lot of time to find the drawbacks. Live foods are higher in nutrients than frozen and pellets, along with the natural oils and lipids that cannot be transported via frozen or freeze-dried foods (such as pellets). I have had a Mandarin in my 150 Reef for well over a year that does fine eating pods and whatever other live foods she can manage (Synchiropus splendidus with the smaller dorsal fin). I think that there is more research to be done and we will see how responsible ORA is...


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## fishesfriend

I read that Along time ago in a article where the guy used the method of madness, and spawned them on a diet of frozen foods. @ 

I'm aware of the third banggai being killed I have another tank to move it to. I am also looking for a tank breed pair to avoid the issue all together.

I think the jaw fish will be good.

Read post below


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## fishesfriend

I think I will leave the gobies out in case the mandarins are truly eat prepared foods


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## wake49

I don't know if his success will transpose into your success. I think that people that get Mandarins that accept frozen and pellet food are lucky. The author of that article is also an experienced breeder, who has been fishkeeping for over fourteen years (as far as I can see from the article...). He has experience and patience with these kind of things and is operating out of an Institute Breeding lab. 

I still think that the fish will do better with it's natural eating habits. Like I had said before, Live Foods contain the proper fatty acids needed for this fish to thrive, and I do not think they ae preserved in frozen or freeze-dired foods.


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## fishesfriend

I am looking at other fish that just came to mind.

Any suggestions


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## Highland lake13

I would take a look at Royal Grammas, Bicolor Blennies, and the various types of Dwarf Angels.


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## fishesfriend

I'm looking for 2 fish that stay in or very close to the rock. 

The gramma and bicolor blennies are on track tho.


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## fishesfriend

I got the rock and sand. The sand is 4" on one side and 3 1/2" on the other should I get more sand?


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## fishesfriend

I hate posting twice and arguing. But, in my 75 gallon tank I have a male scooter blennie. He is eating frozen food. But, he has to compete with a dwarf angelfish, a clown fish, and a salfin tang. Would he be better competing with the fish I have choose?

He they are

2 clownfish
3 banggai cardinals
1 yellow headed jawfish.


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## wake49

Considering the feeding habits of Scooter Blennies and Yeloow-Headed Jawfish, I would assume these two would compete for food. They both depend on Live Foods near the surface of the sand. I actually think that the Jawfish would do better in the 75 and the Scooter would be fine in the 40. That is my opinion.


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## fishesfriend

I like jawfish more for this tank.


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## fishesfriend

I think I found my skimmer! or do I? skimmer

good or bad if bad any other recomidations on a HOB skimmer?

Would an emperor shrimp and a sea cucumber be ok?
I have done little research on this species.


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## fishesfriend

I think after some thought I will move the scooter blenny over to my tank and leave the jawfish out.
I also think I will get him a mate and maby get a watchman goby shrimp pair.


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## fishesfriend

I feel that I am over stocking and will not act with out a possitive note.

So my stocking would be at:

fish


2 black clowns
3 bangaii cardinalfish
2 scooter blennies
1 watchman gobies
inverts


2 nassarius snails
1 turbo snail
1 long spine urchin
8 reef hermits
2 skunk cleaner shrimp
2 fire shrimp
3 peppermint shrimp


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## wake49

fishesfriend said:


> I feel that I am over stocking and will not act with out a possitive note.
> 
> So my stocking would be at:
> 
> fish
> 
> 
> 2 black clowns
> 3 bangaii cardinalfish
> 2 scooter blennies
> 1 watchman gobies
> inverts
> 
> 
> 2 nassarius snails
> 1 turbo snail
> 1 long spine urchin
> 8 reef hermits
> 2 skunk cleaner shrimp
> 2 fire shrimp
> 3 peppermint shrimp


I like this list for compatibility, but make sure that you feed sinking foods, as 3 of your fish are bottom feeders. That along with the CUC will drive competition for food on the sand's surface. I also do not know how I feel about the 3 cardinals. I have heard they will pick off the weaker one until only two are left. 

Wait on the Turbo snail until the tank is at least a year mature. They are voracious algae eaters and need a steady diet. I slack on cleaning the glass just to provide my turbos some food.


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## fishesfriend

I'm aware about the 3 cardinals will kill the weaker one. They kill the weaker one when 2 pair up. I will get them small or just get a pair fish. If I do get them small when they deide to pair up the weaker one will be moved.


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## fishesfriend

Please read post above. I now remembered the order of stocking is important.

I will add

*Fish:*

1st: scooter blennies
2nd: watchman goby
3rd: cardinals
4th: clowns

*Inverts:*

1st: 2 Nassarius snails ; 3 hermits
2nd: 5 hermits ; 3 peppermint shrimp
3rd: 2 scarlet cleaner shrimp
4th: 2 fire shrimp
5th: 1 turbo snail

Long spine urchin will be added along with banngaii cardinals.
Pistol shrimp will be added with yellow watchman goby.


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## onefish2fish

im not sure if anyone said scooters can eat like mandarins, but they are pod hunters.

i personally would skip the longspine. they are big due to their spines and this also means they will be knocking rocks and corals over constantly. you will also need to feed algae for it in the long run. if you want the longspine solely because you wish to eventually breed your cardinals, roll up a ball of aquarium putty and stick it with a few toothpicks.


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## fishesfriend

ok urchin can go. I have one scooter in another tank, he is eating frozen food. I won't buy another one ontil it is eating prepared foods.


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## wake49

onefish2fish said:


> im not sure if anyone said scooters can eat like mandarins, but they are pod hunters.


This has been mentioned in this thread, but if I recall he told us he owns the scooter and it eats prepared food. They do belong to the Dragonet genus, scientific name : Synchiropus, the same genus as Mandarins.


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## fishesfriend

They are more easly feed prepared foods.


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## fishesfriend

hey, I just got back from dallas. So the first time I added sand I got 4" in one corner and 3 1/2 everywere else so I got 40 more pounds! That will bring the total to 160 lbs. YA!!


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## fishesfriend

I'm thinking again. So, I think an urchin may come as all my rocks are zipped tide together, plus it eats algea, they look nice to. Second, I'm thinking of a pair of yasha gobies or a high band goby.


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## wake49

I think your urchin will starve. You can't rely on algae as a food source because if your water is clean and use are using the necessary equipment, you will be free of algae.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fishesfriend

Can I feed sheet algea?
Will the yasha goby pair be ok?


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## fishesfriend

Ok never mind the urchin.
Will a pair of yasha gobies be ok?
If I got metal halides how many watts would I need?


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## fishesfriend

Whats with the no posting?

any way I still have questions.

Will a pair of yasha gobies be ok?

If I got halides how watts would I need?


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## wake49

If you got halides, I think that a 150w bulb would be fine, with maybe two T5HO actinics. 

A pair of Yasha's should be fine, but I do not think they will "pair up" as clowns do.


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## fishesfriend

I will buy they yasha gobies as a pair.


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## fishesfriend

It's been a long time since i posted. Times are bad now, I plan to just let my tank have an extended cycle period.

If i do have to take it down is there a better methed to store the sand and rocks than in a plastic tub?


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## aunt kymmie

fishesfriend said:


> It's been a long time since i posted. Times are bad now, I plan to just let my tank have an extended cycle period.
> 
> If i do have to take it down is there a better methed to store the sand and rocks than in a plastic tub?


Really sorry to hear this. I hope it all gets better for you real soon!


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## wake49

fishesfriend said:


> It's been a long time since i posted. Times are bad now, I plan to just let my tank have an extended cycle period.
> 
> If i do have to take it down is there a better methed to store the sand and rocks than in a plastic tub?


Unless you plan on keeping a powerhead in the containers with the sand and rock, you should just let it all dry out. It will smell for a few weeks, but you would get the same result if you stored that rock and sand without current...


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## fishesfriend

ok it is in a tank with a powerhead for now. 

Thanks.


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## fishesfriend

Hi i"m back with more stocking but the tank is almost cycled! I redid the stocking for the upteen time, I came up with

2 bangaii cardinals
2-3 african flameback angelfish or coral beauty angelfish
2 skunk cleaner shrimp
2 blood red fire shrimp
8-10 hermit crabs
5 astrea or turbo snails
5 nassarius snails
corals


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## fishesfriend

Is this list OK? 
What type of corals can I keep with 300 watts of halides


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## njudson

You can keep anything your water quality will allow with that much light. Some SPS or other high light corals will probably need to be closer to the top but thats plenty of light for anything.


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## reefsahoy

you might want to check but i think the angels will kill each other. you should only have one angel unless they are a mated pair.


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## fishesfriend

The funny thing about dwarf angels is that there like clowns kinda, They can change there sex and juveniles have no sex as they mature they take a sex on depending on the sercumstance. If I get one anglefish larger than the other one or two they should for a pair/harem. harem being 1 male and more than one female.


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## reefsahoy

i'm almost certain they will kill each other if they are not paired before hand or unless your tank is huge but a 40 gal tank is certainly gonna cause problems because pairing does take time and that size is not enough forthe submissive one to run and hide.


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## fishesfriend

New stocking list of fish is called for.


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## fishesfriend

Or can I pair the angels in a 75-100 gallon tank than move them?


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## fishesfriend

ignore the post above.
I would rather have only bangaii's.


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## fishesfriend

I have made a new list.

*2 bangaii cardinals
*2 ocellaris clowns
*2 Heniochus Black & White Butterflyfish


----------



## fishesfriend

Is panty hose and bambo scwers "safe" to put in water?


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## bearwithfish

as long as they are clean yes .. if i may ask for what purpose LOL i do crazy stuff with DIY but i just want to know


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## fishesfriend

IT's goining to be an urchin. anywho, the tank is coming along great seting up the halides and only thing out of whack is nitrates at 10pp- 20 pp ph is a little low at 7.8 still its comin along


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## fishesfriend

Halides are working but I don't wan't to spend 50 bucks on each bulb then fry my tank.
I want to use LEDs but don't know how many to get.
Would this work (the biggest one)?


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## reefsahoy

fishesfriend said:


> Halides are working but I don't wan't to spend 50 bucks on each bulb then fry my tank.
> I want to use LEDs but don't know how many to get.
> Would this work (the biggest one)?


those leds are for viewing purposes only. they cant keep any corals alive that may need light. i doubt even mushrooms could live under those leds.


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## onefish2fish

aquarium putty and tooth picks make a good urchin.. im guessing for the bangaiis


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## fishesfriend

new stocking list.

1 Flame Angelfish
3 Striped Fang Blennies
2 Bangaii cardinals
2 ocellaris clowns
2 heniochus black and white butterflies ( This is a maby)


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## fishesfriend

I got a hang on the back sump for $20!!! It just needs lights and a return pump ( which I have the lights return pump maby an issue) lol


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## bearwithfish

sweet deal .. any pix of it and plans????


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## fishesfriend

Its 4in deep at the water entry. 11 in long and 4 in wide. I see no problem with an inch of sand with cheato or some algea any elses opinion. posably a clown gobie?


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## bearwithfish

i would personally not do a fish in there but rather the cheato as stated and a snail or crab perhaps...


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## fishesfriend

ok sounds good


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## fishesfriend

I got this pump check out this deal. Reef Aquarium Filtration: EcoSystem Hang on Back Wet/Dry System


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## fishesfriend

Can I keep a bicolor angelfish in a tank this size?


----------

