# Help Help..Please HELP



## sprmankalel (Aug 9, 2013)

I have posted about this before but my Crowntail's tail has been "rotting" then not back and forth for a while now. He has been eating voraciously the whole time. He has been in a 10 gallon by himself for about 3 months now. It is planted. A while back I had done a round of Furan-2 but honestly the only thing that seems to stop or at least delay the process was API Aquarium Salt. Tonight I noticed that there's a fuzzy patch on his tail. Never a good sign. What should I do? 

Don't worry about his belly looking so big. He just finished eating some frozen Brine Shrimp.


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## Jasperdog (Jul 12, 2014)

uh u shouldn't feed him that much raise the temp of the tank? thats all i know, sorry


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## sprmankalel (Aug 9, 2013)

Why you think he's had a lot to eat? He only had about 7 brine shrimps. 

No other suggestions?
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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

Daily 50% water changes for a week, every other day the second week, wait 10 minutes before adding dechlor.


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## sprmankalel (Aug 9, 2013)

So you're saying to put new water in without dechlorinator then wait 10 mins and then add dechlorinator? Can you explain the benefit?
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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

Free topical antiseptic included with your tap water.


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## Lucillia (Apr 29, 2013)

Ahhh, use your dechlorinator. Cholrine and heavy metals will not help him and likely stress him much more. Normally for fin rot you would do daily 50% water changes and you can add AQ salt as will if you like... Make sure to dissolve the AQ salt in a seperate cup of tank water first before adding it into his tank. 

Are there any sharp objects at all in his tank? Plastic plants, plastic rocks.. Its weird but anything with an edge can catch his fins. 

What temp is his tank right now? Have you tried anything besides AQ salt? What are your parameters currently? How often do you do your water changes? 

Is it a grayish fuzz or a bright white fuzz?


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

The chlorine does help. The small amount that comes from your tap won't hurt the fish. It works the same as Maroxy, which is a stabilized form of chlorine. I've dealt with more angels tore up in pairing incidents than you want to know of. The rot/infection/yuck is common, and fresh water with a bit of antiseptic action often gets them back in better shape than they originally were. 

By design all my tanks with the exception of hatching tanks get hit with untreated tap, most all the tanks in my setup are drilled with overflows for water changes. I do this mainly with angels, as my setup is designed for production breeding of them, but I've also got a handful of species from common livebearers to zebra plecs that I do the same thing with. They all get 5-10 minutes of untreated tap with every water change, no issues. 

You'll find old school fishkeepers will do 25% water changes without using any dechlorinator, figuring the chlorine will gas off. They have no clue that over the past couple decades most municipal water suppliers have been adding chloramine. They also have no idea that the water suppliers are in a constant battle with bacteria growing in the system that have evolved to being able to split the chlorine/ammonia bond in chloramine, using the ammonia as food. One last thing they are clueless about is that they are growing these very same bacteria in their nitrifying filtration system, so the fish they work with do just fine.

Some suppliers will do seasonal or quarterly breakpoint chlorination, this is where they totally jack the disinfectant for a day or 2. This is an effort to combat those chloramine eating bacteria, and they wil usually publish a notice in advance of doing this. Things like this are why as an aquarist it is in your best interest to know everything you can about your water supplier.


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## sprmankalel (Aug 9, 2013)

No sharp objects just plants. I started this 10 gallon with overgrowth from my 50 gallon. He had this problem before moving him. I have tried Furan-2 but that seemed to only turn the water yellow. It was recommend that I use a certain type of antibiotic and this is what had it. The fuzzy sop has gone and at the end of his body there is a swollen part and then what little is left of his tail. I also tried BettaFix to no avail. I change the water about every 7-10 day. I just started a new job so it got pushed back by a coupe day. 

Could I use Tolak's method and add salt? My main question is will the salt hurt the plants? I am not overly worried about the plants but there is one that I would like to not kill. I could move them to the my 50 gallon if needed.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Good info on that Tolak, thanks for popping in!

However, sprmankalel, do you have well or municipal water?

The salt, if it is in a low enough dosage won't harm the plants immediately, however if there is one you'd like to not hurt then it might benefit to move it while you treat or treat your fish in a separate container to avoid that completely.

This isn't fin rot but either Saprolgenia or Columnaris starting up, though Saprolengia is pretty common with tail biters and planted tanks.


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## sprmankalel (Aug 9, 2013)

He's always been alone so it wasn't a tail biter unless he did it to himself. He just went into the 10 gallon planted tank in mid May. Prior to that he was in a 2.5 gallon with plastic plants. I make sure that were no sharp edges as well as I could. I thought that I observed some regrowth with salt. I discontinued treatment and moved him to the 10. I guess I could opt him back in the 2.5 and treat with salt. Could I move my 8 Black Neons to the 10 or is this not advisable because he is sick and there is something in the tank? I could also move the plants to my 50 and put the plastic ones in and leave him in the 10. Would any efforts be futile or is this something that can be successfully treated? I really like this guy. I picked him because he was the feistiest and his colors were different than the standard blue or red.
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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks lilnaugrim, I don't do plants at all, and have no idea of what a low salinity level will do to them. I've had buddies do brackish tanks, plants are always a tough thing, there's very few plant species that can handle a more elevated salinity level. I would advise keeping the ailing fish as separate as possible from other fish, this means no fish switchery to avoid cross contamination.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, some of the more hardy plants like Java Ferns and Anubias don't mind an elevated saline level but the sensitive ones and finer leaved plants don't like the increase of salt at all and will practically instantly melt.

He definitely bit his own tail, he has the classic U shaped marks and large chunks missing. Fish do it for various reasons, it all comes down to stress though in the end, whether it be from annoyance that he can't get at other fish or because he doesn't like the items in the tank being moved around, each fish is different. There's no cure for tail biting so you just have to deal with it and keep his water clean to avoid infection like this. For chronic tail biters I suggest the preventative use of AQ salt in the aquarium at all times, a dose of 1 teaspoon per ever five gallons is low enough that all plants can tolerate but enough change in salinity that it will help keep bacterial infection away for the most part--granted, it doesn't kill everything but it does help in the long run. It also helps improve kidney and liver function as well. And that dose can be used for an indefinite time period without issue.

However Tolak, I'm not too certain about the use of chlorine as an antiseptic for fish. I know it works fine on humans but I know chlorine destroys their slime coat and can cause damage to their gills as well with irritation. Granted, this is in more concentrated dosages so to really be recommending a treatment like this, you'd have to know the concentration of chlorine and chloramine in the tap water, correct? This is not a treatment that should be done when the city bumps up their chlorine to make the water "safe" for us, yes?

I know most places, you can look up city water information online?


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## sprmankalel (Aug 9, 2013)

I have never heard of them biting their own tails. That's interesting. Like I said, he's only lived alone. He doesn't have a view of other fish. Maybe his feistiness (the reason I picked him) is his demise. In the smaller tank, and sometimes now, when I approach to feed he would swim towards me and flare his gills. I took this as personality and not stress or any kind of issue. I've never observed him biting himself. I don't want to move him if I don't have to. So I guess I'll try the salt route. Should I maybe start with a half dose and monitor plants then increase?
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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

It's very common, in fact, so much that I wrote an article to differentiate between fin rot and fin biting since so many people mistake biting for rot. Here's the link: http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=346377

Generally you will never see them actually bite their own fins, it's a rarity if you actually do catch him biting. As I said, it could be anything, I had a case once where the fish hated the heater light turning on at night. I don't remember how the person figured it out but she spray painted it with Krylon fusion he stopped biting. Other times it's because he can see his reflection, sometimes for heavy finned males they just want to swim faster so they give themselves a "haircut" if their fins are too much for them. Another time it was because the fishes environment wasn't changed frequent enough so he became bored, it was solved with changing up the tank each week or so. Another hated when things were moved out or into his tank, he liked it just the way he wanted it and if anything would change, he'd bite his tail for it. So there are many possibilities for tail biting.

Since I suspect Columnaris or Saprolengia, salt isn't going to be enough. I suggest getting some Clear Water by Jungle if you have it in your wal-mart's or pet stores. It contains Potassium Permanganate and when used for a 30 minute bath for your fish, double dosed, it helps cure a lot of things. It's not a miracle drug but I do suggest it for your fish.

Instead of adding salt to his tank it would be better if you did the PP and the AQ salt in the same bath so you'd use 1 teaspoon per gallon of salt and double dose the Clear Water in a smaller tank, preferably a 1 or 2 gallon. Then you can scoop him out in a cup and acclimate him to the QT water, if possible and it is highly suggested, use water from his tank so he's already used to the basic chemistry. Then after 30 minutes, net him out instead of scooping him out since you don't want any of the bath water to go into his normal tank. Throw away the bath water and repeat each night.


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## sprmankalel (Aug 9, 2013)

Thank you, lilnaugrim for all the info and help. I was looking up the Clear Water. It seems it is indicated to help with discolored water and odor. Is this what you are referencing?


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

Excellent link lilnaugrim, you can see how they tend to nip away at the webbing, leaving the rays alone. Very species specific, I learned something today, TY! 

PP is a great thing when used properly, make sure the treatment tank is squeaky clean, as it is an oxidizing agent that will not discriminate between bacteria on the fish, and ambient bacteria in the substrate, as well as the filter. You want it to do its thing on the fish, not your deco's & hardware.

By law municipal water suppliers do have to publish a yearly report, here's the one for my water; 
http://www.evergreenpark-ill.com/DocumentCenter/View/360

The maximum chlorine level detected for the year was 1.02ppm, legally they can bring it up to 4.0ppm. Minimum was 0.30, a pretty low dose, almost nothing to worry about. Looking as Seachem's site, Prime in a regular dose will neutralize 4mg/l chloramine, & 5mg/l chlorine, mg/l being close enough to ppm for aquatic use. I chose Prime due to it being such a commonly used product, and my water report because it's what I get to work with. You can find most any of them online thanks to Google, city & state then Water Quality Report.

Bottom line is the disinfectants in your water supply are an oxidizing agent, working much the same as PP, but no doubt PP will work better. Tap water is quick, easy & cheap, PP is a more controllable treatment. I've got a link somewhere to mixing it from powder, from an angel forum, I'll have to dig that out as I should be heading to work, Mondays, ugh.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yes, they nip at the webbing but they will also tear the rays right off as well, they aren't a solid bone like in larger fish but softer and rip just as easy as the membrane does. 

I'm still not quite sold on the idea of using the chlorine in the tap though, as Lucillia and I were talking she was saying about how chlorine is not stable where Maroxy is a stable form. It can randomly burst and become gas so wouldn't that not be helpful in the long run but detrimental to the fish if it is so unstable? Again, it goes back to knowing your water but I don't think this is something that should be recommended to just anyone; it's bound to be misinterpreted somewhere and then blamed for killing their fish without knowing. I realize in your description post you say that but I think if you're going to suggest it in the first place, best to elaborate why it would work is all.

And @sprmankalel, yes that is the stuff I'm referring to  you can buy it in powder/crystal form online but I always found it easier to dose the drops instead


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## Lucillia (Apr 29, 2013)

It's more based on how it's unstable which is why is dissipates within 24hrs. The other version is chloramine which is essentially chlorine piggy backing on ammonia to avoid going into molecular detail. Depending on what you use for conditioner the chlorine will go leaving ammonia or take both out. However chloramine are very destructive to the Bene bac of a cycled tank. Repeated amounts will harm the fish slime coat, gills and even possible internal organs. Granted 5 minutes once a month will not disrupt your cycle. I understand what tolak is saying, it's essentially the same. Most times it's either treat the fish, they fish may not survive treatment. Or don't treat the fish and they will not survive. It's a lesser of two evils and if it came down to it and I has nothing else, I would try chlorine as an antiseptic. Again, chlorine does not break down through organic compounds. So it may not even get to what ever it is you are targeting. This is why when you 'disinfect' surfaces they must be free of all debris first. Chlorine is always looking to bond with another structure, and it doesn't know how to differentiate. 

In the end, could it be useful? Yeah, I could see the application of using it as a one time thing that might target the issue at hand. But again I wouldn't use it if you have other options at hand that will be much more controllable. But I do appreciate the application here and never would have thought about it that way. 

--as a fun fact, my water supply comes from Providence and has had chlorine react with organic and inorganic structures to create chloroform, bromoform, bromodichloromethane, and dibromochloromethane which are all volatile organic compounds. 
I also hate autocorrect. I apologize for the grammatical errors. 
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## sprmankalel (Aug 9, 2013)

I don't know when/where I will get my hands on the Clear Water so last night I started with Furan-2 again. I thought something is better than nothing. I got it on the recommendation to use Nitrofurazone. I have to get to the store to see if I can find the Clear Water.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, if it's columnaris then Furan-2 should work fine. You can still do the baths while you dose the Furan-2, though it may become too stressful for the fish so just keep an eye on him. If he's too stressed out then don't do baths, just keep him in the furan-2, but if he seems fine then it wouldn't hurt to do a bath one night.


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## sprmankalel (Aug 9, 2013)

Getting ready to do the 2nd 25% WC after the full Furan-2 treatment. The hornwort didn't make it through treatment. No big I have plenty from my 50 gallon. What would be suggested next step to help promote regrowth?


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## sprmankalel (Aug 9, 2013)

I was wondering if a salt bath would be ok. Like maybe empty a gallon of tank water, treat with salt, let Nemo in there for like 15 minutes and return to tank. Would this be too much? His tail seems no better after the Furan-2 treatment.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

You can but salt doesn't do anything that medication wouldn't do better. Salt is good for sterilizing but fin rot and melt is generally a closed rotting wound, not open like a gash is so it won't do anything for him. Can you get any new pictures?


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## sprmankalel (Aug 9, 2013)

Here are 2. Don't mind the algae on the front glass. I am trying to just do water changes without scraping to see if it eventually dies off.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Ehh, yeah he doesn't look so great. Still looks like Saprolengia to me but the meds should have helped it out. You don't have carbon of any sort in your filter if you have one, right? Followed the directions on the meds?


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## sprmankalel (Aug 9, 2013)

I used the Furan-2. Dosed with one packet then another 24 hours later. Then 25% water change and repeated. I do have carbon in the filter now because I finished the dosing. 

He's been eating like a champ and swimming around well. Normal except for this tail. Are my efforts in vain?
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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

No I don't think they're in vain at all, it's just not going to be easy to get him back to health is all. You only went one round of Furan-2, correct? He's been acting normal all this time?


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## sprmankalel (Aug 9, 2013)

Yes. One round and he's been acting normal the whole time.
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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Alright, it may help to go another round then.


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## sprmankalel (Aug 9, 2013)

I'll have to acquire some more but I'll give it a try.
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