# New Tank - Cloudy Water Trouble



## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

On my new 60g aquarium I setup on Saturday, I was attempting the fishless shrimp cycle with one frozen raw shrimp. I had fashioned a bag of gravel from my 10g tank and used it in the new Aquaclear filter in place of charcoal (so filter has sponge, gravel, then ceramic). I added 4 capfuls of Topfin bacteria supplement and 4 capfuls of Jungle Start Right. (These are quantities are less than recommended for 60g new tank, but was taking a modest approach to these additions).
Also note that I believe we rinsed the gravel very well in colander as I realize that new gravel can often carry a lot of 'fines'..

By Sunday, the water was very cloudy and a bit foul smelling so I removed the shrimp. I added my Aquatech 5-15 power filter to the tank with a fresh filter cartridge for some extra filtration (yes I know a 5-15 is too small to carry a tank this large, but it flows a a good rate and is extra along with my AquaClear 70).

At this writing, the water is still very cloudy.

I'm thinking this may just be a bacteria bloom and I should be patient, but if it doesn't seem to clear soon, I'm thinking of partial water change or starting over!

Thoughts?


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## Thoth (Mar 16, 2011)

Fine substrate particles will not foul the water. I would defiantly do a water changes until it clears up and recommend that you do not use either additive... cycle the tank"el natural". Just use prime and be mindful of the nitrogen cycle.


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## whitecloud34 (Feb 22, 2011)

I had the same exact problem. My tank's been set up for about a month now. I started with the fishless cycle but through fish flakes. Big mistake. I can't imagine what the shrimp method smells like because the flake method smelled horrible! The tanks in my bedroom and I coudln't even sleep at night. It was horrible gunky and dirty and cloudy. Well I just started over. I did a complete water change, filled it back up and cycled with feeder goldfish. I guess it isn't recommended to use goldfish if you plan on going tropical because they might carry diseases and don't do well with tropical fish or the higher temperatures but they were the only fish that survived. I tried Zebra Danios because I've read they are very hardy but they died over night. So the goldfish worked for me. Then I discovered a lot of people on here use Seachem's Prime, a water conditioner that detoxifies ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates and doesn't interfere with the cycling process. It converts toxic ammonia into harmless ammonium. My goldfish were alive and well but a bit sluggish, not eating very much and hiding most of the day. The next day after putting the Prime in they were active and eating and doing a lot better. The only thing is the Prime wears off after about 24 hours (found that out thanks to this site). So you would have to add it every day. I can't do water changes to get ammonia down because my tap water has ammonia in it :-? so I have no choice but to use it every day but it seems to be working ok for now. But when I got my goldfish the tank was cloudy for like a week and then one day suddenly it was crystal clear like literally over night.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Cloudiness may occur from several factors, some are bad, most don't matter. The more important thing is the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.

I am not a fan of putting dead matter into a tank to cycle it. I prefer seeding the tank with live bacteria (with fish in it) or live plants, or both. They never fail, and the fish are never stressed if it is done properly.

If you ask, I will go into the method more.

Byron.


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

Byron said:


> Cloudiness may occur from several factors, some are bad, most don't matter. The more important thing is the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.
> 
> I am not a fan of putting dead matter into a tank to cycle it. I prefer seeding the tank with live bacteria (with fish in it) or live plants, or both. They never fail, and the fish are never stressed if it is done properly.
> 
> ...


Bryon,

Yes, Id appreciate your further input. 

I only tried the fishelss shrimp method because it was posted here and 'seemed' as viable as 'feeding' the empty tank with fish food. On the other hand, I think this tank is large enough so that starting with fresh water, I could transfer my 6 neon tetras and 2 platy's from the 10 gallon tank and never see an ammonia spike (as I installed gravel from the established tank in the filter...)

Anyway, please describe your process.

Thanks,
-Mike


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

whitecloud34 said:


> But when I got my goldfish the tank was cloudy for like a week and then one day suddenly it was crystal clear like literally over night.


Yes, my research on the web suggests that often a new tank in cycling will have cloudy water as the result of a bacteria bloom and that once compete, the water will clear, often overnight.
I just wasn't expecting it and perhaps am being too impatient..However, in hindsight, I wish I had NOT put the shrimp in there.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

AbbeysDad said:


> Bryon,
> 
> Yes, Id appreciate your further input.
> 
> ...


When you set up the tank, plant it. Lots of plants, by which I mean not just a couple. Floating plants and stem plants are good because being fast growers they need (= use) a lot of nutrients, one of which is ammonia/ammonium, essential for plants. Put in a fish or two, something you want in the tank, but a hardy species preferably. Don't know what you want in your 60g, but in that size tank you could have a group (7-9) of tetra for instance, or rasbora. With live plants they would be fine.

Seeding is also an option, with the plants or on its own. If you have an existing established tank (established meaning fully cycled, and then running a couple months after that), you can use the filter from it, or media from the filter, or some of the substrate, or wood, rock, decor from the tank. Don't wash any of these, and keep them wet, or the bacteria will die; also make sure the water in the new tank is conditioned to get rid of the chlorine etc before adding these items. Bacteria colonizes hard surfaces under water, so there will be some attached to any of these items, and in the new tank with the few fish, the ammonia from the fish will feed the bacteria and they will multiply according to the available food (ammonia and nitrite). Another seeding method is a bacterial supplement. I have used Seachem's Stability, and there is also Tetra's SafeStart. Both these are 100% live bacteria, and they work. They do not miraculously "cycle" a tank, they merely seed it with live bacteria to start the cycle faster with no impact to the few fish.

I have set up many new tanks and had fish in them from day one with never an issue. Only this past month I tore down and reset 5 of my tanks, each in one day, using new substrate and filter media in all of them, moving all the fish in the same day (80+ fish in the 70g for instance) and not one loss.

Byron.


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

Byron said:


> When you set up the tank, plant it. Lots of plants, by which I mean not just a couple. ...
> Seeding is also an option, with the plants or on its own. If you have an existing established tank (established meaning fully cycled, and then running a couple months after that), you can use the filter from it, or media from the filter, or some of the substrate, or wood, rock, decor from the tank. ...
> I have set up many new tanks and had fish in them from day one with never an issue. Only this past month I tore down and reset 5 of my tanks, each in one day, using new substrate and filter media in all of them, moving all the fish in the same day (80+ fish in the 70g for instance) and not one loss.
> 
> Byron.


Bryon,

Thanks for your feedback. I hate to, but may drain and start over. Although I may add some floating plants, I don't really want to plant real plants at this point. I'd prefer to use plastic for decor allowing me to aggressively perform gravel vacuuming, rearrange at will, not worry about light and plant fertilizers, etc...

I can't really say that my 10g is well cycled. Prior to two weeks ago it contained goldfish (UGF). I tore the tank down and 'cleaned' the gravel in hot tap water (well water, no chlorine) then put it all back together with a heater and a power filter (in addition to the UGF) and added 2 red wag platys and 3 neon tetras. I have an ammonia alarm in the tank and it has been fine for these two weeks. It is difficult to know to what degree bacteria survived in the hot water 'cleaning' process, although most bacteria is pretty resilient.

I think I'll drain and see if I can get the bacteria starter you recommend, then add my hearty platys, perhaps along with a pair (or 3) new swordtails and go from there.

Thanks again,
Mike


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

AbbeysDad said:


> Bryon,
> 
> Thanks for your feedback. I hate to, but may drain and start over. Although I may add some floating plants, I don't really want to plant real plants at this point. I'd prefer to use plastic for decor allowing me to aggressively perform gravel vacuuming, rearrange at will, not worry about light and plant fertilizers, etc...
> 
> ...


Rather than drain it, just clean out the shrimp bits. There is probably some bacteria in there. Unless there is another reason I'm not aware of for tearing it down.

A few livebearers will work, you have space. Don't overdo it with fish. Has to be slow so the bacteria has time to multiply. Nitrosomonas bacteria takes 9 hours in optimum conditions, nitrospira about 20 hours, to multiply which they do by binary division if ammonia/nitrite respectively is present. Nitrifying bacteria will be present at the level needed to handle the available ammonia/nitrite; if it increases they multiply accordingly, if it decreases they die off within hours. Which is why one always adds a few fish at a time.

Live plants of course negate all of this, as they assimilate ammonia/ammonium fast, and in their case there is no nitrite/nitrate resulting. Provided they are sufficient in number to balance the fish load.


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

Byron said:


> Rather than drain it, just clean out the shrimp bits. There is probably some bacteria in there. Unless there is another reason I'm not aware of for tearing it down....


Well there are no shrimp bits as I had it inside a nylon stocking tied on a string for easy removal.
I'm reluctant to put a couple of fish in such cloudy water, hoping it will clear up. If I do and a week later it's still cloudy, what then...? 
I'd think, as much as I don't want to haul another 120 gallons of water, I'd rather start with clear, clean water and then go slow adding fish...?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

AbbeysDad said:


> Well there are no shrimp bits as I had it inside a nylon stocking tied on a string for easy removal.
> I'm reluctant to put a couple of fish in such cloudy water, hoping it will clear up. If I do and a week later it's still cloudy, what then...?
> I'd think, as much as I don't want to haul another 120 gallons of water, I'd rather start with clear, clean water and then go slow adding fish...?


Ah, I'd forgotten about the cloudy water. That qualifies as the "another reason...". And that may be due to bacteria from decaying shrimp.

You need a Python. The water changer I mean, not the reptile. With my 7 tanks including a 115g getting 50% water changes every week, I'd give up on the hobby without a Python.


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

Byron said:


> You need a Python. The water changer I mean, not the reptile. With my 7 tanks including a 115g getting 50% water changes every week, I'd give up on the hobby without a Python.


Yes sir, it's on my wish list and will happen soon (never an issue with 10g, but this tank is a whole new ball game - I have two dedicated buckets and lost count of the number it took to fill this tank!) ...along with the longer gravel cleaner tube/wand (this two foot deep tank is a real shirt wetter!) I need to measure to see if 25' will reach the kitchen sink (don't wanna pay for 50' if I don't have to).
:smile:

Dang-just measured and need like 35', so will have to buy the 50' python version which pains my wallet backside!!! I may be haulin until I'm more rich 'n famous!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

AbbeysDad said:


> Yes sir, it's on my wish list and will happen soon (never an issue with 10g, but this tank is a whole new ball game - I have two dedicated buckets and lost count of the number it took to fill this tank!) ...along with the longer gravel cleaner tube/wand (this two foot deep tank is a real shirt wetter!) I need to measure to see if 25' will reach the kitchen sink (don't wanna pay for 50' if I don't have to).
> :smile:


May I suggest you consider the Aqueon changer rather than the Python. I have had my Python since 1995, and the part that attaches to the faucet has broken (threads strip out) and had to be replaced 3 times. The last time, I had to get an Aqueon part (it will fit) because that is all they had in stock, and in my view it is better made. It also has a valve arm (to switch from draining to filling) rather than the Python format.


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

Byron said:


> May I suggest you consider the Aqueon changer rather than the Python. I have had my Python since 1995, and the part that attaches to the faucet has broken (threads strip out) and had to be replaced 3 times. The last time, I had to get an Aqueon part (it will fit) because that is all they had in stock, and in my view it is better made. It also has a valve arm (to switch from draining to filling) rather than the Python format.


Will do - same company that manufactured my new 200w heater. I'll be sure and look for it.
Thanks again,


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## GwenInNM (Feb 2, 2011)

AbbeysDad said:


> Yes, my research on the web suggests that often a new tank in cycling will have cloudy water as the result of a bacteria bloom and that once compete, the water will clear, often overnight.
> I just wasn't expecting it and perhaps am being too impatient..However, in hindsight, I wish I had NOT put the shrimp in there.


I just want to share I had great results with using shrimp to cycle, but also saw cloudy water. I pulled the shrimp out, and it did clear on it's own, which amazed me. I did put in lots of live plants, that may/may not have contributed. My tank is almost done cycling now, which is so shocking because when I did it with fish in it took about 4 weeks. This happened in 5 days. 

I agree with Byron, if you can be diligent about watching your ammonia, you can cycle without losing fish. I did not lose one fish, (Danios) doing fish in cycling. 

Gwen 

Gwen


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## GwenInNM (Feb 2, 2011)

AbbeysDad said:


> Will do - same company that manufactured my new 200w heater. I'll be sure and look for it.
> Thanks again,


FYI - you can get that on Amazon 20' hose for $24.00. I want one too and have had my eye on getting it. 

Gwen


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

GwenInNM said:


> FYI - you can get that on Amazon 20' hose for $24.00. I want one too and have had my eye on getting it.
> 
> Gwen


Thanks, but sadly I need about 35' to comfortably make it to the kitchen sink, which means I need to buy the 50' version for about $50....jeez....I could get alot of neat decor and fish for a fifty!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

You can buy extensions. I need three 25-foot lengths to go from my fish room to the utility room sink. Check into prices, not sure if getting a 50-foot is less or more than getting a 25-foot plus a 25-foot extension.


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

Well I did the deed and changed the water!!! Now get this...I put my gravel filter hose inside a length of garden hose and ran the hose out the front door onto the front lawn. Even though it's new, I vacuumed the gravel in case there were any trapped fine particles. And in using the garden hose, it hit me that with an adapter for the sink (not unlike what is used for the Python/Aqueon and what I had a century ago for my water bed), I could use the garden hose to gravel siphon water off and hookup to the sink to refill.
Prolly cost me $5 instead of $50 :smile:
Water is now crystal clear. Admittedly, my cycle starts over, but I'll go slowly with fish this time.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

AbbeysDad said:


> On my new 60g aquarium I setup on Saturday, I was attempting the fishless shrimp cycle with one frozen raw shrimp. I had fashioned a bag of gravel from my 10g tank and used it in the new Aquaclear filter in place of charcoal (so filter has sponge, gravel, then ceramic). I added 4 capfuls of Topfin bacteria supplement and 4 capfuls of Jungle Start Right. (These are quantities are less than recommended for 60g new tank, but was taking a modest approach to these additions).
> Also note that I believe we rinsed the gravel very well in colander as I realize that new gravel can often carry a lot of 'fines'..
> 
> By Sunday, the water was very cloudy and a bit foul smelling so I removed the shrimp. I added my Aquatech 5-15 power filter to the tank with a fresh filter cartridge for some extra filtration (yes I know a 5-15 is too small to carry a tank this large, but it flows a a good rate and is extra along with my AquaClear 70).
> ...


Bacteria blooms can last a week or longer.Much happens in the aquarium during the cycling process and those who believe the water should remain gin clear during this time are often dissapointed.
Patience is needed,plenty of time after the biological filter has developed to address water clarity which often resolves itself.
Removing the shrimp, stops the beneficial bacteria from developing,smell can be dealt with by performing water change. So long as filter,shrimp,substrate, aren't disturbed,,the process will continue.
Fishless cycling can also be done with pure liquid ammonia.
No need to subject fish to maturing(cycling) process.
To use fish is leaving one with ZERO margin for error. Too many fish,too large of fish,too much food,will result in a cycling tank of sick fish.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Byron said:


> Cloudiness may occur from several factors, some are bad, most don't matter. The more important thing is the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.
> 
> I am not a fan of putting dead matter into a tank to cycle it. I prefer seeding the tank with live bacteria (with fish in it) or live plants, or both. They never fail, and the fish are never stressed if it is done properly.
> 
> ...


 
While I appreciate,respect your view (always),
We put dead matter in the tank every time we feed our fish, Bacteria makes no distinction between cycling time, or any other time.It will consume what Food is available.(no fish are harmed)
Not all are ready for planted tank effort, or have access to seed material from existing tank, and shrimp or fish food method in my view,,is safe way to avoid burning up gills of fishes by those who insist on using fishes with little knowledge of proper stocking /feeding for the fish in method. Other's simply don't care.They use fish to cycle,,,fish die,,,and they replace them with more fish.
Eventually through attrition,the tanks biological filter develops.
These folks would be just as well off letting the dead fish rot to feed the bacteria but no,,,they purchase more.
Smell associated with dead prawns,or fish food method is easily addressed with water change that does nothing to slow the process assuming the filter and or substrate is not disturbed IME.


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

1077 said:


> Bacteria blooms can last a week or longer.Much happens in the aquarium during the cycling process and those who believe the water should remain gin clear during this time are often dissapointed.
> Patience is needed,plenty of time after the biological filter has developed to address water clarity which often resolves itself.
> Removing the shrimp, stops the beneficial bacteria from developing,smell can be dealt with by performing water change. So long as filter,shrimp,substrate, aren't disturbed,,the process will continue.
> Fishless cycling can also be done with pure liquid ammonia.
> ...


Thanks for your feedback.
Food for thought - I saw an interesting video on youtube from a fish store called instant cycle. The fella took a sponge filter from an established tank and squeezed it into a glass, then poured it into the newly setup tank - instant cycle. I will add 4 or 5 fish in this 60g along with gravel (in the filter) from my existing 10g and will be sure not to overfeed. I don't believe I will see an ammonia spike, but I'll monitor. I also don't expect water so cloudy I can't see through it or a foul odor.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

AbbeysDad said:


> Thanks for your feedback.
> Food for thought - I saw an interesting video on youtube from a fish store called instant cycle. The fella took a sponge filter from an established tank and squeezed it into a glass, then poured it into the newly setup tank - instant cycle. I will add 4 or 5 fish in this 60g along with gravel (in the filter) from my existing 10g and will be sure not to overfeed. I don't believe I will see an ammonia spike, but I'll monitor. I also don't expect water so cloudy I can't see through it or a foul odor.


What you saw on video would work for a VERY small number of fish in same size or a larger tank.
Bacteria develops in direct proportion to available food. If the tank he took the sponge filter from held but five or six small fish,, he could add no more than five or six small fish to the same size tank or a bit larger tank. He would no doubt boost the development of bacteria by what he did but the tank in question would be far from instant cycle. He would have been better served by adding the sponge filter to the new tank rather than squeezing water from it.
If he added more fish than the bacteria he squeezed into the tank, he would no doubt measure ammonia levels dangerous to toxic depending on numbers of fish.
If you borrow material from a tank holding five or six fish,,you cannot add more than that to the new tank without expecting ammonia levels to increase.


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

1077 said:


> What you saw on video would work for a VERY small number of fish in same size or a larger tank.
> Bacteria develops in direct proportion to available food. If the tank he took the sponge filter from held but five or six small fish,, he could add no more than five or six small fish to the same size tank or a bit larger tank. He would no doubt boost the development of bacteria by what he did but the tank in question would be far from instant cycle. He would have been better served by adding the sponge filter to the new tank rather than squeezing water from it.
> If he added more fish than the bacteria he squeezed into the tank, he would no doubt measure ammonia levels dangerous to toxic depending on numbers of fish.
> If you borrow material from a tank holding five or six fish,,you cannot add more than that to the new tank without expecting ammonia levels to increase.


I think you are incorrect in your thinking. This seeding of a bacteria culture from an established tank is a viable shortcut vs. cycling from ground zero. You are correct that the bacteria colony population will rise and fall in accordance to the environment, but the point is that this seeding transfers an established colony from a 'cycled' tank to a new fresh install which will likely prevent the dreaded ammonia spike. This is same as adding substrate and/or decor from an existing tank to a new one and very similar to the many start-up products available for this same purpose.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

AbbeysDad said:


> I think you are incorrect in your thinking. This seeding of a bacteria culture from an established tank is a viable shortcut vs. cycling from ground zero. You are correct that the bacteria colony population will rise and fall in accordance to the environment, but the point is that this seeding transfers an established colony from a 'cycled' tank to a new fresh install which will likely prevent the dreaded ammonia spike. This is same as adding substrate and/or decor from an existing tank to a new one and very similar to the many start-up products available for this same purpose.


 
No I am clearly thinking. What he did was introduce a small amount of bacteria from an established tank.
Let's say I pulled a sponge filter from a five gallon tank holding four or five tetra's and squeezed the sponge into a new tank and then added a dozen tetra's.Even if I added the sponge filter rather than squeezing the sponge,there would not be enough bacteria to support a dozen fish only the four or five tetras from the donor tank. Unless the new tank was considerably larger, allowing for ammonia created by the dozen fish to be diluted in larger body of water, you would still have less bacteria than is needed for a dozen fish.(even with seeding a new tank slow and steady stocking is the way)
Seeding of bacteria is indeed a shortcut that can save time but it does not create an instantly cycled tank. If too many fish exceed the amount of bacteria present, ammonia levels WILL increase.
Adding as much material as you can is wise for this reason when seeding a new tank.
Fishes produce ammonia through respiration and waste.Add to this frequent overfeeding and,overstocking,and biological filter is taxed until such time as the colony can multiply to adjust to the load present.
As for the start up products you mention,, views on these products and their effectiveness are mixed at best. If they worked equally well for everyone,you could not keep the junk on the shelves.Many of them are little more than dead organics in a bottle in mmy view.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

This point about bacteria versus number of fish is flawed. Let me explain. In an established tank, the level of bacteria will match the amount of ammonia and nitrite available. These bacteria are everywhere, not just in the filter. Moving the entire filter to a new tank does not mean you can add the number of fish that were in the established tank and expect the bacteria to be sufficient to handle them; it will not be. Because transferring just the filter is only transferring the bacteria that colonized that filter. The other bacteria left in the established tank might well have been the majority, and these are not in the new tank. So the number of fish the bacteria in the new tank can handle will be significantly less than what are in the established tank.

In all cases of "seeding," however it is accomplished, one adds some bacteria to the new tank, in the expectation that it will multiply as ammonia and nitrite increase in the new tank. One should only use a very few fish in the new tank to avoid overwhelming the introduced bacteria. It takes time for bacteria to multiply. The number of fish in the new tank should always be much less than the number that are in the established tank. Unless one has live plants, which is a whole different thing.

As for squeezing water from a filter, that in my view is likely to achieve nothing but stressed fish. Bacteria colonize surfaces. And I admit I cannot say if it is possible to "move" them in such a manner, but it seems highly unlikely. I would not risk the fish.

Byron.


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## DKRST (Jan 11, 2011)

AbbeysDad said:


> I think you are incorrect in your thinking.
> 
> 
> 1077 said:
> ...


Gentlepersons ;-), what we have here is a semantic argument - you are both correct. Yes, using items with bacteria from established tank(s) will absolutely help establish a new tanks bacteria faster. And, as 1077 indicated, it does not instantly fully cycle the tank since the bacteria will reproduce based on the amount of resources, that "building" to the level of your stock in the tank. 

I have never added anything but fish and food to start my tank cycles. Mainly because I always had only one tank at a time! Others do it differently and everyone has their preferences. The common goal is to have a happy, healthy tank. Increase stock slowly, monitor water conditions as you go, and the outcome will be good.

Posted before seeing Byron's response. I think bacteria would be transferred, but less through water than using some solid media.


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

Byron said:


> This point about bacteria versus number of fish is flawed. Let me explain. In an established tank, the level of bacteria will match the amount of ammonia and nitrite available. These bacteria are everywhere, not just in the filter. Moving the entire filter to a new tank does not mean you can add the number of fish that were in the established tank and expect the bacteria to be sufficient to handle them; it will not be. Because transferring just the filter is only transferring the bacteria that colonized that filter. The other bacteria left in the established tank might well have been the majority, and these are not in the new tank. So the number of fish the bacteria in the new tank can handle will be significantly less than what are in the established tank.
> 
> In all cases of "seeding," however it is accomplished, one adds some bacteria to the new tank, in the expectation that it will multiply as ammonia and nitrite increase in the new tank. One should only use a very few fish in the new tank to avoid overwhelming the introduced bacteria. It takes time for bacteria to multiply. The number of fish in the new tank should always be much less than the number that are in the established tank. Unless one has live plants, which is a whole different thing.
> 
> ...


The dialog here is exciting and reveals some interesting points. 
Although it would seem that bacteria colonies inhabit surfaces, they really require the nooks and crannies (can you say 'English Muffin') to adhere best to - which is why gravel and rough ceramic and the cells in foam work so well. But I'm betting if we examine the resulting slurry from the squeezed sponge under a scope, we would see a plethora of bacterium that now needs to find a new home.

To a degree we would likely agree that the overall bacteria population is somewhat relative to the available resources in the water (predominantly food and O2), however, we might also agree that if a fish or two were removed from a tank, it would not necessarily mean that a corresponding million or so bacteria would perish.

Further however, consider this... lets say I have an established tank with existing bio-media (say a sack of ceramics). The new tank with a few fish is moving along, perhaps into week 2 or 3 and ammonia begins to rise. What if I take that sack of bacteria loaded bio-media and put it in the newer tanks filter... seems to me ammonia and nitrites get processed and all is well.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more this 'cycling' is a bunch of nonsense <hehe>
We could make the case that if a new tank is not overcrowded and/or overfed and/or subjected to bad tank maintenance from the get go, the beneficial bacteria population should increase very nicely...naturally and not require any special cycling routine.

Come to think of it, back in the day (not long after we emerged from the primordial slurry) I had some 8 aquariums going breading live bearers. In those days we never knew anything about cycling a tank and I rarely if ever lost a fish - and some of those fry tanks had no gravel, decor and only very simple bubble up filters. I wonder how I managed :smile: (okay, it was a trick question as the answer of course is not over feeding and routine partial water changes).


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

> To a degree we would likely agree that the overall bacteria population is somewhat relative to the available resources in the water (predominantly food and O2), however, we might also agree that if a fish or two were removed from a tank, it would not necessarily mean that a corresponding million or so bacteria would perish.


Yes it would, though not a million, no idea on numbers. But it is a fact that nitrifying bacteria in an aquarium only exist at the level required to handle the ammonia and nitrite. If either of these toxic substances increases, the bacteria will multiply accordingly by binary division; if either substance decreases, the existing bacteria die off in proportion. It takes only a few hours for the latter to occur. Without their "food" (ammonia or nitrite) these nitrosomonas and Nitrospira cannot live. To multiply, it takes approximately 9 hours for nitrosomonas and 20 hours for Nitrospira, under "optimum" conditions (temperature and pH).



> Further however, consider this... lets say I have an established tank with existing bio-media (say a sack of ceramics). The new tank with a few fish is moving along, perhaps into week 2 or 3 and ammonia begins to rise. What if I take that sack of bacteria loaded bio-media and put it in the newer tanks filter... seems to me ammonia and nitrites get processed and all is well.


Yes. Provided the bacteria added is sufficient to handle that ammonia.



> Actually, the more I think about it, the more this 'cycling' is a bunch of nonsense <hehe>
> We could make the case that if a new tank is not overcrowded and/or overfed and/or subjected to bad tank maintenance from the get go, the beneficial bacteria population should increase very nicely...naturally and not require any special cycling routine.


No, in most scenarios. In a new tank just set up, there are no nitrifying bacteria present (unless added via seeding). They appear once ammonia is present, then nitrite. But it takes time, and any fish in the tank may or may not be seriously affected during that time. In a large volume of water and with minimal fish, it would (should) work, as the ammonia from the fish has a large area to spread out in, and the fish is able to "get away" from much of it, but the nitrosomonas bacteria will settle in and consume it. Same with nitrite and Nitrospira bacteria. But in a smaller space, and with more fish, the fish are exposed quicker and to much higher levels, and it is well documented that as little as 1 mg/litre (1 ppm) of ammonia can kill plants and fish. This is when applied directly; as I said, the more water volume, the more this is spread out. The damage done to the fish however is permanent. The immune system is weakened, more by the stress this causes; internal organs can be harmed. Even if the fish appear to "survive" the initial ammonia/nitrite, it is almost always the case that they develop health issues down the road that would otherwise not have occurred, and frequently have a much shorter lifespan due to the initial poisoning.

Fish in a closed artificial system, which is what every aquarium is, are significantly affected by everything--good or bad--that occurs in that system. They cannot escape. Their water environment causes this.

Byron.


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

Thank-you for the feedback/input.

I think I will add fish slowly in this new tank, with the advantage that 60 gal is more forgiving than smaller tanks. I added my two Red Wag Platy's last night. I think they became comfortable in the 10g and seemed initially confused by the much larger world they live in now. Today they seem to be enjoying the bubble wall on the left side of the tank and swimming all over. 
I'm reluctant to add plants at this time as my distant past experiences with plants was not very good.
Floating plants may be an option if they would hold up, but still represents a risk of bringing in unwanted elements. Not sure I want much to do with cut bundles.
As this tank gets a bit further in the cycle process, I may bag gravel from the 10g which is way ahead in cycle and has a UGF to encourage bio substrate. I think this may jumpstart the bio-bag in my AquaClear 70 filter. I also picked up an ammonia remover insert for the AquaClear for a contingency in the event of excess ammonia. I think by slowly adding fish and a strategic 'seed' of bio material, I should be able to cycle w/o difficulty - we'll see.
My plan right now is to add just a few more hearty fish, leaving the neon tetras in the 10g along with the 20 or so platy fry (still in breeder net). I believe the neons should come later in the 60g cycle.
(this 60g tank is awesome! Looking forward to building the community)


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## BradSD (Jul 26, 2010)

I purchased this same tank however I used the water and filter from an old 50 gallon. Everything else in the tank is new including the rock and decor. I had about 12 mature ciclids that I moved from old tank to new. My water is also partly cloudy however no fish deaths and they seem to be doing okay. Id hate to lose some of these mature ciclids as the are large and gorgeous. Im guessing that I moved approx 40 gallons of my old water and added 20 gallons of new, much the same as a water change. What should I expect, is this the same as a new tank?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

BradSD said:


> I purchased this same tank however I used the water and filter from an old 50 gallon. Everything else in the tank is new including the rock and decor. I had about 12 mature ciclids that I moved from old tank to new. My water is also partly cloudy however no fish deaths and they seem to be doing okay. Id hate to lose some of these mature ciclids as the are large and gorgeous. Im guessing that I moved approx 40 gallons of my old water and added 20 gallons of new, much the same as a water change. What should I expect, is this the same as a new tank?


Transferring water is more detrimental than beneficial--except in cases where there would otherwise be a very significant and sudden pH or hardness shift. But in terms of bacteria and cycling, there is no real benefit. The additional ammonia, nitrite, pathogens, waste, pheremones, etc. are not beneficial. And nitrifying bacteria colonize surfaces, so they will only be transferred if hard objects containing a colony of bacteria are transferred (filter media, substrate, rock, wood, decor, even plants).

When I set up new tanks, or reset existing ones, I always use fresh tap water entirely, with conditioner of course. Wood/rock and plants from the existing tank to the new tank are sufficient. Without live plants, I would also recomend a good bacterial supplement. Tetra's SafeStart and Seachem's Stability are both 100% nitrifying bacteria and they work to seed the tank.

Byron.


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

BradSD said:


> I purchased this same tank however I used the water and filter from an old 50 gallon. Everything else in the tank is new including the rock and decor. I had about 12 mature ciclids that I moved from old tank to new. My water is also partly cloudy however no fish deaths and they seem to be doing okay. Id hate to lose some of these mature ciclids as the are large and gorgeous. Im guessing that I moved approx 40 gallons of my old water and added 20 gallons of new, much the same as a water change. What should I expect, is this the same as a new tank?


You may be fine as long as you transfered the filter media along with the filter??? 
A few water changes will remove the old water (as though they never moved). On the other hand, if you also replaced the filtering media, you may need to monitor closely to ensure the ammonia & nitrites are being managed. You may need some extra water changes as things get settled in ~


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Byron said:


> Transferring water is more detrimental than beneficial--except in cases where there would otherwise be a very significant and sudden pH or hardness shift. But in terms of bacteria and cycling, there is no real benefit. The additional ammonia, nitrite, pathogens, waste, pheremones, etc. are not beneficial. And nitrifying bacteria colonize surfaces, so they will only be transferred if hard objects containing a colony of bacteria are transferred (filter media, substrate, rock, wood, decor, even plants).
> 
> When I set up new tanks, or reset existing ones, I always use fresh tap water entirely, with conditioner of course. Wood/rock and plants from the existing tank to the new tank are sufficient. Without live plants, I would also recomend a good bacterial supplement. Tetra's SafeStart and Seachem's Stability are both 100% nitrifying bacteria and they work to seed the tank.
> 
> Byron.


 
Agree with much of this, When moving fish from established tank to new tank with or without seed material from established tank, one must not only consider the size and numbers of fish moved,,but also waste created by same and frequency and amount of foods offered along with volume of water.
Best in my view, to use as much borrowed seed material as possible and reduce feedings both in frequency, and amounts offered for a week or two and or,, simply perform smallish frequent water changes perhaps twice weekly for the first couple weeks (more often maybe without seed material).
Ammonia from fish waste ,fish food,and as by product of fish respiration will ALWAYS increase much faster than bacteria develops and is how so many wind up with problems when starting a new tank.
Lot's of seed material and water changes are your friend until the bacteria can multiply to accomodate the load.
Bacterial supplement's, or cycle in a bottle products, are in my view/expierience,a hit or miss proposistion and I stopped using ,suggesting, these product's long ago.
The bacteria needed (nitrifying) needs oxygen and product in sealed bottle and possibly setting on store shelf for weeks,month's, cannot in my view be of any real benefit but other's feel differently.
For myself,,I use only tapwater and dechlorinator period.


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

I think Brads mistake was not so much in the water transfer, because as he points out, it was much like a water change. However, if I had a tank with cloudy water and was upgrading to a larger tank, I wouldn't transfer the problem water. He does need to be concerned about the biology since an upgrade like this may lose much of the bio-filtration that was going on in the original tank and the new cycle could be detrimental to the fish relative to the population and the tank size. So take heed Brad. Monitor your new tank closely and be prepared to perform more frequent partial water changes (and seek to seed some biology) until the tank stabilizes.

1077 - I'm uncertain about your theory regarding the bio additives. Here's why...I do a fair amount of organic vegetable gardening, so I make lots of compost and vermicompost annually. I live in the Northeast and come winter, instead of disappearing forever, the decomp bacteria goes into a status like suspended animation and when the temperature warms in the spring, things pickup where they left off. Oh, I'm sure some bacteria perishes, but certainly not all.
Similarly, I debunk the theory that if/when a tank with a UGF filter suffers a power outage, all of the aerobic bacteria dies and is quickly replaced with anaerobic bacteria and the tank fouls. In reality, it would take a very long time for such a thing to happen.
Likewise is the theory that since bacteria colony populations are directly proportional to the food source, if the food source is depleted, there is genocide. Perhaps in time, but it would take a very long, long time.

Bacteria has survived eons of adverse condition and is a much 'tougher customer' than some believe.

So the biology in the bottle will reduce over time and become somewhat less effective...but it will or should have value well into the future. Instead of relying on the scant few bacteria that come along for the ride on fish and plants and rocks, it makes good sense to me to seed the new system with biology to jump start the process. But I don't think I'd do it with a brand new setup...but rather wait a couple of weeks (depending on the fish population) to allow the environment to enrich some to develop a food source... this is not unlike hot composting, where you need the right (green/brown) food source, air and moisture and get a resulting firestorm of biology (which is always much faster when seeded with culture). 
Just some food for thought. :smile:


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## BradSD (Jul 26, 2010)

I been changing about 30 to 35% ever three days or so. The fish seem okay but the tank still has a slightly cloudy look to it, not terrible though. The water from old tank was fine, I guess I should have done some reshearch before making the change but I had a guy wanting to buy my old tank and the timing was right for a quick change. I had seen the Pet Smart ad and jumped on it, a much more beautiful tank and stand plus an extra few gallons of space. Anyways, no fish loss so far and I am happy as some of the cichlids I have are larger than the $25 ones at Pet Smart. 12 * 25=$300 would be a costly error.
Thanks for all the information you guys on this site are a huge help and it keeps if fun. I been a lurker mostly of late maybe I will get more involved with the site again.
Brad


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

AbbeysDad said:


> I think Brads mistake was not so much in the water transfer, because as he points out, it was much like a water change. However, if I had a tank with cloudy water and was upgrading to a larger tank, I wouldn't transfer the problem water. He does need to be concerned about the biology since an upgrade like this may lose much of the bio-filtration that was going on in the original tank and the new cycle could be detrimental to the fish relative to the population and the tank size. So take heed Brad. Monitor your new tank closely and be prepared to perform more frequent partial water changes (and seek to seed some biology) until the tank stabilizes.
> 
> 1077 - I'm uncertain about your theory regarding the bio additives. Here's why...I do a fair amount of organic vegetable gardening, so I make lots of compost and vermicompost annually. I live in the Northeast and come winter, instead of disappearing forever, the decomp bacteria goes into a status like suspended animation and when the temperature warms in the spring, things pickup where they left off. Oh, I'm sure some bacteria perishes, but certainly not all.
> Similarly, I debunk the theory that if/when a tank with a UGF filter suffers a power outage, all of the aerobic bacteria dies and is quickly replaced with anaerobic bacteria and the tank fouls. In reality, it would take a very long time for such a thing to happen.
> ...


 
Would suggest some reading on Beneficial and detrimental Microbes in aquaculture paying particular attention to Anerobic,and aerobic bacteria.
Bacteria needed to oxidise ammonia,and nitrites(nitrifying) cannot develop in absence of oxygen.
It is recognized Science, not theory.


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## AbbeysDad (Mar 28, 2011)

1077 said:


> Would suggest some reading on Beneficial and detrimental Microbes in aquaculture paying particular attention to Anerobic,and aerobic bacteria.
> Bacteria needed to oxidise ammonia,and nitrites(nitrifying) cannot develop in absence of oxygen.
> It is recognized Science, not theory.


We were talking about survival in shelf life, not development.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I'd like to offer a few comments on the issue of how long it takes before the nitrifying bacteria will die off, since this is a reality that should be understood by aquarists.

Nitrifying bacteria require oxygen constantly. Nitrification cannot occur if oxygen levels are at 2 ppm or lower. The autotrophic bacteria (nitrosomonas, nitrospira, etc) cannot multiply or convert ammonia or nitrites in the absence of oxygen. When the oxygen is depleted, the bacteria enter a state of "suspended animation" so to speak, or dormancy. During periods of adverse conditions they utilize stored materials within the cell. But once those reserves are depleted, the bacteria die. From my reading it seems this occurs within a matter of a few hours. Some sources say 6 hours, some are more general and say within a day at most.

Aside from the actual die off, there is another concern, and that is the explosion of heterotrophic bacteria (such as the denitrifying bacteria, anaerobic bacteria, etc) that occurs when oxygen is depleted in the filter or substrate. "In an extended power outage, the oxygen content of the water inside the canisters will expire resulting in the beneficial bacteria shutting down and entering hibernation. In addition, many species of heterotrophic bacteria can continue to function in an absence of oxygen. Since these bacteria can multiply quickly, they can easily over run the autotrophic nitrifying bacteria we are trying to preserve. It is entirely possible, depending on the amount of organics contained within the filters, that these heterotrophic bacteria will cause putrification, which will result in the death of the autotrophic nitrifying bacteria within the canister. If nothing else, remove the media from the canisters and place it into the main tank, where the autotrophic nitrifying bacteria stand a better chance of survival." This citation comes from: Autotrophic Nitrifying Bacteria and Their Practical Application in a Freshwater Tank

With respect to the effectiveness of bacterial supplements, rather than cite individual studies by scientists, here is quite a good summary posted on Aquarium Wiki.
Bacteria bottles, do they work? - The Free Freshwater and Saltwater Aquarium Encyclopedia Anyone Can Edit - The Aquarium Wiki


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

AbbeysDad said:


> We were talking about survival in shelf life, not development.[/quot
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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