# finaly gonna start my new tank



## teddyzaper (Aug 30, 2009)

ok so im starting a new reef tank and i have some questions. i made a post a while ago about thinking about it but i wasnt to serious at the time. 

ok so im gonna either start out with a 10gal or a 20gal, because i already have both those tanks and a very small budget. i also have a light that fits both and is very nice.

the light specs are: 6700k 65 watt... will this be adequite in either of the tanks for some corals of some type? please say what type of corals.

ok so for stocking the tank, we have a VERY nice salt water fish store, and not to be rude im kinda hoping it will close so i can get sales :lol:. i will probably buy the skimmer and the sand and maybe a heater online. for that i have a VERY tight budget and will be looking for stuff on ebay and some other auction stores. i need a skimmer that can hang on back and has all that good stuff for the tank for $35..... i know, but ive seen them before for like $20.

the rest of the money will be spent on high quality rock, that i like the look of. i am planning on making a bridge and a cave, and some nice flat areas for some corals. the best part is that i can pick out the rock myself. i think im only gonna start out with 5lbs because the rocks at the store are very light.

what depth sand bed should i get, because if i get a 6inch sandbed that is almost 1/4 of the 10gal tank and then i would only have 7.5gal of water which seems like VERY little.

as for stalking, i would like a goby and a shrimp. i think it was the watchman goby and the pistol shrimp that team up together or something? i really like that type of group. also, i would like to have a crab, although not a HAVE TO HAVE, i think they look really cool. got any suggestions on stalking other then what i said?

i will be working a lot for my mom so i can get money, but currently i have $36 so what would be the best thing to buy to start off with? i know i need to buy salt, a salinity thing, and a water tester, i got freshwater and it also has PH for saltwater, but no calcium or any of that good stuff. could u tell me what tests to get and what to buy first?

also, im in no hurry so i can take this tank very slow if needed to, ofc everyone wants its done so they can look at it but i think half the fun is the making of the tank :lol:

long and confusing post but please if you could help me on this it would be greatly appreciated, i will post a build when i start to put it together:lol::lol::lol:


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## teddyzaper (Aug 30, 2009)

ok so i got some more questions now that ive surfed the web for a bit.

do i need a cover on the tank so the water doesnt eveaporate making the salnity spike?

i saw these skimmers for in my price range: Aquarium Water Quality: JBJ Lighting Protein Skimmer Kit for 28 gallon Nano Cube

Visi-Jet Protein Skimmer

although the secod one is in the tank and looks a bit big. 

would the first one be any good? its well within my price range.


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## mrdemin (Oct 4, 2009)

With a 10 or 20 gallon tank you will probably lose more money than with a bigger tank. A decent skimmer goes for over 100 bucks, so I would not recommend one for 35. I'm not sure if corals REQUIRE actinic light, but 6700k is daylight, not for corals. As for sand you would need between 4-6 inches. Live/dry rock needs to be present in 1 lb/gallon. You need a calcium test, alkalinity test I believe, buffers, the salinity thing is called a hydrometer. All this will add up in the hundreds of dollars.
Based on your post I would recommend using your 36 bucks to invest in a book on starting and maintaining saltwater tanks.

Pasfur should have a more interesting and helpful answer for you


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## teddyzaper (Aug 30, 2009)

i understand i cant get the bist stuff, but i cant afford $100 on a skimmer alone. would that skimmer at least SKIM stuff?


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

mrdemin said:


> Pasfur should have a more interesting and helpful answer for you


Thank you, but honestly folks, we have a lot of great experienced hobbyists on this site. Don't loose track of OF2F, Wake, BettaBaby, Kellsindell, and others who provide a ton of great advice. Sometimes to much of one person can be a bad thing.

Anyhow, the best advice I can give on this thread is to be extremely patient. I realize you have a small budget, but small tanks need a long time to mature, and you will have no problem buying things as you go along. Most test kits can be purchased gradually, such as Nitrate, alkalinity, and calcium. The same with your buffer and calcium supplement. 

Up front, you will need to get salt, a hydrometer, ammonia and nitrite kits, a couple power heads, live rock, and purchase 10 gallons of RO water. This will probably max out your budget for now. A skimmer won't be necessary for several weeks. 

For the record, both of those skimmers that you posted are horrible models. The VisaJet is possibly the worst skimmer ever made. The other has an extremely thin neck, which will allow very minimal water to bubble contact time. Here is a better option:
Nano Protein Skimmer Reef Aquarium Nano Reef Tank Nano Cube Aquapod

I would prefer a hang on skimmer, so let me also check on eBay and see what I can find for you. I didn't see much at first glance just now, but I'm home dealing with a knee surgery and nothing better to do, so I will keep a look out and try to find something that works for you.

Again, the biggest key will be patience. Also, you want to stock this tank VERY lightly to allow room for grow out. Corals grow a lot faster than you think. For a 10 gallon, I think your light will be fine. You should stick with mostly soft corals to get your feet wet. Polyps, mushrooms, zoanthids, that sort of thing.

For sand, I would suggest a very thin layer, under 1'' of sand, for a 10 gallon tank. If it is 20 gallons, then consider going 4''. In my experience, this will provide you the maximum denitrification benefits.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

This isn't a very good skimmer, but for a 10 gallon would be within your budget and with soft corals and routine water changes would get the job done. It also holds about a gallon of water, which increases your water volume by about 15%. The chamber would also allow you a place to put a small bag of activated carbon, which i'm a fan of in a reef. Finally, it pushes some water flow, which would really be helpful in a small tank to save some space, allowing you to only use 1 powerhead. So, it does provide some benefits. Protein Skimmer TAAM Rio Nano Skimmer for Coral Reef - eBay (item 220545492182 end time Jan-30-10 16:55:51 PST)


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## mrdemin (Oct 4, 2009)

See zapper I was way off 
And pasfur, I have only seen wake and bettababy around a few times, you're always on here, thats why I mentioned you lol.
This should be an interesting thread, and I'm curious the outcome since every other thread I have seen til now recommended different things. As for buying LR, I wonder how much is it in that store of yours? I have seen it here at one store for 10 bucks per pound, sounds like overkill... is it?


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## teddyzaper (Aug 30, 2009)

well at the store it was about $6-$10 depending on the "quality"... this makes me laugh, because its all in a giant tank all mixed together, how do they tell?

first off, thank you for understanding me and my budget.

so all those skimmers are within my budget but the first link had one for $140? is that the one your recomending? are is it the other two?

i can do up to a water change a day XD i dont think that will be necesary though....

so do i need to change the buld or will it do for soft corals?

are kenya trees soft corals? i think they might get to big for the tank though... i also like polyps, although i love natural color, so the more color the better 

im thinking of going with the 10gal, because im afraid the shape of the 20gal will make me go crazy (its pretty tall).

i think my dad has an R/O machien sitting in the grage somewhere. could i use that? and also there is a big one and a small one. which one should i set up, i can get some specs on it tommorows (its cold outside and dark and im being a wimp)

ok well i think the live rock will be the end of my budget due to the price of the stuff.... also is there any type of salt or can i just stop by petco on the way to check out the fish store again. (i wont buy anything at the fish store unless i could buy the LR the same time as the salt.

do they give u LR out of the water or in a baggy or sumthing? that would be a heavy baggy. im just trying to think of everything before i go, cause its a long drive. 

i could go there tommorow or thursday because i got half days (finals). but i still dont understand about the skimmer. i thought u would need it at the beggining like in a FW tank, cause its like a filter. although the LR does filter i would think it needs a break in time....

i got powerhead that i use in freshwater, although im not sure how well they would do in salt water, is it worth a try? would they break down? also i think i can find a hydrometer in the big pile of fish stuff..... are old ones accurate enough, it would be like 5yrs old....

i also prefer hang on skimmers, maybe not for the same reason, but i like them cause they arent in my beutiful tank XD

i just found those skimmers online through price range check so i wasnt really looking at the quality, and to tell you the truth, websites are pretty convincing XD

i like the one you found on ebay, i might just snag it before someone else buys it, because i can wait to set up the tank.


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## teddyzaper (Aug 30, 2009)

ok well my mom says we can go to petco tommorow, just wondering, how much sand should i get to make a 1 inch sanbed, and how much salt, and they are clearing out thier SW section so they might have specials, the LR is pretty bad but i mean if its for a good deal i could get some?


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

teddyzaper said:


> so all those skimmers are within my budget but the first link had one for $140? is that the one your recomending? are is it the other two?


I gave you the wrong link. This is the skimmer I was looking at for you: Nano Protein Skimmer Small Aquatic Life Internal Mini Skimmer 115 Protein Skimmer



> i can do up to a water change a day XD i dont think that will be necesary though....


I don't consider water changes to be an alternative to skimming. A 10% water change will reduce the nitrate buildup by 10%. You are trying to prevent the buildup of nitrate and depletion of carbonates, which is what the skimmer will help achieve.



> are kenya trees soft corals?


Yes. I would think this is along the lines of what you are looking for. OF2F & Wake have more experience in coral selection than I do. They can help you a lot on this. 



> im thinking of going with the 10gal, because im afraid the shape of the 20gal will make me go crazy (its pretty tall).


Is it a 20 X-tall, or a 20 regular? A 20 x-tall is the same as a 10 gallon, but 2 times the height. This would be ideal for you to use with a nice 5'' deep sand bed!



> i think my dad has an R/O machien sitting in the grage somewhere. could i use that?


I have no idea. Ask Dawn. (BettaBaby)



> is there any type of salt or can i just stop by petco on the way to check out the fish store again.


I use Instant Ocean.



> do they give u LR out of the water or in a baggy or sumthing?


They will box it for you and should wrap it in wet newspaper. 



> t i still dont understand about the skimmer. i thought u would need it at the beggining like in a FW tank, cause its like a filter.


The skimmer is really the exact opposite of a filter. It is REMOVING nutrients. A filter breaks down nutrients or traps nutrients. The live rock will serve as your only source of biological processing of waste. Again, not having a skimmer for a few weeks will not hurt at all.



> i got powerhead that i use in freshwater, although im not sure how well they would do in salt water, is it worth a try? would they break down? also i think i can find a hydrometer in the big pile of fish stuff..... are old ones accurate enough, it would be like 5yrs old....


The powerhead should be fine for saltwater, unless it is a very generic brand. Rinse the hydrometer in vinegar and take it to the LFS. Test it compared to their hydrometer to see if it is still giving an accurate reading.


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## Bluetangclan (Jan 23, 2010)

A one inch bed mightl cause you issues in the long run. Just get a 20 pound bag and use it, thats probably the minimum you will find at petco anyway. You want aragonite sand, with that tiny a tank you want every advantage you can get because realistically, as a new saltwater guy, you are fighting a steep learning curve as it is. 

With the LR, its easy to go cheap if you have patience. Although with a 10 gallon you wont need a bunch anyway. Get a decent sized chunk of LR and then use base bock for the rest. Within a few months, the good stuff on the LR will migrate onto the base rock and most likely the base rock will be out of sight under the LR anyway.

LR for 10 bucks a pound? That better be premium reef stuff that was pulled and overnighted the day before and shipped in water. 6.99-7.99 is the normal I see with rubble much cheaper at like 2.99 a pound. Speaking of which thats another route you might want to take for that small a tank, get LR rubble, some marine epoxy and build whatever you want your rock work to look like. 

Your lighting needs to be at least 10k color rating if your set only has one bulb. If it has 2 then find a 10k and an actinic.

Never wish bad things on your LFS, where else are you going to trade stuff in when it misbehaves or out grows your tank?

With your lack of a decent sized skimmer(I always overskim) theres a coral that should help you later on although you will have to trim it out every so often(remember that part above about trading things in?). You should look at xenia. It will grow quickly in theory(some tanks it grow like a weed, some it doesnt, kinda like goniporea survival rates) in not too heavily skimmed tanks and will help maintain water quality and looks cool.

Dont worry about softies getting too big, they are typically easy to frag out and bring to your store, especially leathers. My mind is sending up flags about Kenya Tree but i cant remember why.

RODI machine is great although if its old you will probably want to pick up new filters for it otherwise it wont help any as the filter wear out after awhile of use. What do you mean, big one or small one?

If you buy LR at petco or anyplace for that matter, look closely at it. If you see a pinkish/brownish stalk with tentcles on the end, dont buy it or any other rock from that tank. Thats a nuisance anemone called aiptasia(sp?). Its easy to google if you want a better pic and look up majano while your at it, much less common but still an utter pain to deal with. Dont let any LFS sucker you into buying it as a "cheap coral" either. It will take over your tank and kill your other corals, can survive in the dark or months without food. Can also simply hide for several months before appearing so observation isnt even 100% but helps alot.

How close to the coast are you? On another forum I am on, theres a few guys who go out in Puget Sound and gather their own stuff. Alot of cool coldwater stuff which thankfully doesnt come into the reef hobby much. 

Speaking of that, got a heater? You will want to keep the tank around 79-80 F. I cant see you needing more than one small powerhead in a 10 gallon. Powerhead is a powerhead, your freshwater one should work fine if its not too strong.

Good luck, a small tank is hard to do. I have had them off and on over the years for frag tanks and such. Your better off with more water and i think a 64w would still be suffiecient for the 20t with the corals we are talking about if you have the right bulb. You might want to think about going to home depot and building or buying a light setup with two bulbs. Should be very easy, not much work involved and would help tremendously, plus with florescent lighting, pretty cheap. Only slightly more with power compacts with expoential benefits.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

A quick welcome to Bluetangclan on TFK. There are many different ways to approach this hobby, and I think we will have some welcome contributions from Tim. 



Bluetangclan said:


> A one inch bed mightl cause you issues in the long run.


The differences in our approach start with the basics. I personally strongly advocate a 1'' sand bed or less, or going a full 4'' to 6'' depth. I have had difficulty in the past with sand beds between the 1'' and 4'' range, which is why I suggested staying under 1'' on this particular thread. To BTC's credit, the sand debate is alive and well in this hobby. Many experienced hobbyists have arrived at different conclusions on what works best in their systems. 



> LR for 10 bucks a pound? That better be premium reef stuff that was pulled and overnighted the day before and shipped in water. 6.99-7.99 is the normal I see with rubble much cheaper at like 2.99 a pound. Speaking of which thats another route you might want to take for that small a tank, get LR rubble, some marine epoxy and build whatever you want your rock work to look like.


Agreed and GREAT IDEA!



> Your lighting needs to be at least 10k color rating if your set only has one bulb. If it has 2 then find a 10k and an actinic.


I would personally not have any issues in attempting a very simple reef with easy to keep soft corals under the current lighting. That being said, adding an actinic would greatly improve the color. If you are handy, then a trip to Home Depot might help.



> Dont worry about softies getting too big, they are typically easy to frag out and bring to your store, especially leathers. My mind is sending up flags about Kenya Tree but i cant remember why.


Funny, I had the same gut instinct. Perhaps Wake or OF2F can chime in on this.



> Powerhead is a powerhead, your freshwater one should work fine if its not too strong.


Just be careful with stuff you bought at a yard sale, etc. Some of the older models do not have chords that are submersible in saltwater. If you are buying a power head made for an aquarium, then all is good.

Great thread here. This will be fun!


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## teddyzaper (Aug 30, 2009)

ok well i just went to petco and i got some freshwater fish (4 yellow labs, adorible!!), anyways, they had bads of sand for like $20 for 10lbs, and 20lbs for $35, are these good prices or hsould i just order it online and while im at it some salt online? the salt was $15 for a 25gal tank (that is how it was measured, not quite sure what it means). hte power head is relativly new and it was bought at a fish store so it should work good. im not very handy with lights so ill just keep them as is and then just change if something goes wrong.... well since a kenya tree seems to have a bad rep for some reason ill just be safe and not go with it. i also love the big circle ones that are kinda like shrooms that are flat, if someone could put a name to it, that would be great, i really like the purple ones and green ones. i do really love that idea of the rubble pieces and will definatly look into it. So since i got those fish i wont have any more money for a bit, but i remember because i got myself a cell phone for christmas i have a mail in rebate of $50 comming my way soon i could get a lot of stuff and probably start the tank up. for now i gotta clean it cause its sitting with water and sand in my room.... not good lol. i think im gonna go with a 1" sandbed because its just a bit much considering the price of everything else. 10lbs should be enough because the baggie was about 1" thick and look like the dimensions of my tank. if i need more ill simply get another bag. ill check the prices of the nice fish store but they will probably be more since its not commercialy owned..... but if its only like $5 more ill get it there to support LFS. hmmm well i agree with pasfur, this is gonna be a great thread with lots of info for other onlookers


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## teddyzaper (Aug 30, 2009)

ok so im looking around at some gobies and i have just fallen in love.... i gotta have this fish, a manderin goby. if someone could tell me what they need and everything, i have the time to feed it and will do everything i can to get one. has anyone ever had experience with it? what saltwater foods are thier for carnivores, are there frozen or pelets or does it have to be alive? any other interesting facts? how big do they get? will they team up with a pistol shrimp? how much would they cost? is it ok to order saltwater fish online? any sites that offer this fish? is it even sutable for a 10gal? ive read some storries about it being in 10gal tanks.


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## Bluetangclan (Jan 23, 2010)

You kicked an anthill on this one. To sum up the answer for the Manderin, NO. That is a very special fish requiring a huge tank, not for growth, but so theres enough rock for it to hunt pods on without wiping them all out. I wouldnt buy one unless you had a minimum of a mature 75gal reef tank with 100+ pounds of rock. Seeing as how thats likely a bit out of your price range, stay away from this fish. I would be willing to bet 95% die early from people either not knowing better or thinkng they know better. Beautiful fish, dont waste your time, money, and its life. It wont eat pellets, flake, frozen or anything like that, only live food and it hunts all day.

On a side note its not really a goby, its a dragonette along with the green spotted dragonette and the also misnamed scooter blenny. No it wont team up with a shrimp, they are solitary critters.

I have no problem except for logistics when it comes to buying fish online. Solved that by having UPS or whoever delivers it to work and take a half day. Theres a few fairly reliable online vendors, others are sketchy. The Drs run a pretty tight ship, in the distant past, I ordered from saltwaterfish.com with good results as well. There are a bunch out there. First thing I would check is the sponsors for this site and see what they offer. You will find online goods cheaper for the most part than your LFS.

Again, its not suitable for a 10gal, it would have it cleared of pods within a day.

You should have enough sand I think. The salt was enough to make 25 gallons of saltwater. The shroom things are called mushrooms(rodactis I think is part of the scientific?). They would be great for your tank. Zoanthids would do well too along with star polyps and yellow polyps. Check your local Craigslist after your tank has been through its cycle and maybe you will find some cheap.

Again, no mandarin. If you look on the saltwater fish forum, the fish not for beginners, I think the very first person who posted put that one there. Not enough rock for them to eat off of.


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## teddyzaper (Aug 30, 2009)

awwww ok well since i trust ya guys im not doing it, just sounded so convincing online  also i wasnt thinking of kenya trees, it was actualy xenia or w/e its called. so with the $50 ill probably buy 20lps of live sand, 15lbs of "rubble" (free shipping yay) and salt and the test kits necesary. after that ill work on getting money for skimmer then some live stuff... i have a question, is a CUC necesary or optional in a 10gal, it just seems like a bunch of snails wouldnt fit in the tank with an invert and a fish.... also, other then crabs and shrimp what other inverts are suitable for this tank, if any?


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## Bluetangclan (Jan 23, 2010)

Well I would go with two astrea snails once the cycle is done or at least the Nitrite and Ammonia is at zero. I would get those regardless of what else you get along with a couple red leg hermits. A healthy tank will always have diatoms on the glass and rock and detritus to get rid of. But dont over do it, definatetely no not go by any of those packages you see online. They tend to be a bit out of whack with numbers. Then think about what small fish. If I get a chance at work I will see if I can find some suggestions for fish you might like that will do ok in a tiny tank. 

Xenia might do ok in your tank actually and if it does take off, it will help with cleaning the water. Was it this thread it was mentioned that in some tanks it works, and some it doesnt? No reason I know of why even between tanks with identical specs.It looks cool and it moves too. My tanks have always been of the cant grow it type.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Bluetangclan said:


> You kicked an anthill on this one. To sum up the answer for the Manderin, NO. That is a very special fish requiring a huge tank, not for growth, but so theres enough rock for it to hunt pods on without wiping them all out. I wouldnt buy one unless you had a minimum of a mature 75gal reef tank with 100+ pounds of rock. It wont eat pellets, flake, frozen or anything like that, only live food and it hunts all day.


I want to reinforce this. Every month or so there is somebody who "finds" a Mandarine that is eating flakes or brine shrimp and they buy it. This is the equivalent of feeding your dog ice creme and thinking that it actually gets the necessary nutritional value from what it is eating. A Mandarine REQUIRES a huge micofauna population to survive. They graze all day, and need a large tank to allow for the demands they place on the copepods and amphipod populations. 

On the CUC, i agree that every tank needs one and a small tank especially. A couple of crabs and 1 o 2 snails is about all you want or could support in that tank. The CUC will keep the sand stirred and help prevent detritus from settling on rocks and sand. This is an important function for preventing algae and cyno outbreaks, which will be the most challenging aspect of keeping a small tank.


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## teddyzaper (Aug 30, 2009)

so when im done with the CUC do they just stay in the tank or do i sell them back to the store? and also with the $50 im planning on buying, salt, and LR.... my mom made a deal that she will buy me sand and skimmer. the skimmer has to be under $50 with shipping so anything close to that would be nice. i could also just get the one on ebay that you recomended. as for the sand, ill probably just get it at petco or the salt water store.......


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Pasfur said:


> The CUC will keep the sand stirred and help prevent detritus from settling on rocks and sand. This is an important function for preventing algae and cyno outbreaks, which will be the most challenging aspect of keeping a small tank.


This concept above applies forever. You will never be "done" with a CUC. ;-)

For $50, you won't beat the eBay model. Just keep in mind, at some point I am going to speak these words to you....
"No, I would not recommend that fish or coral, because your skimmer is not efficient enough."


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## teddyzaper (Aug 30, 2009)

ok, that is fine, but could you supply a list of things i COULD get.

also, the fish store has some LR from a takedown tank and its for $2 per lb. he says it has no coraline algea.

here is the email:
I have some Jakarta rock that I got from a tank tear down that has no coralline algae on it for $2/lb.

Take care,
Eric



kk so should i get some? is that considered base rock or dead rock? i could get like 10 lbs of that and then like 1 lb of thier nice LR to "seed" it, does that sound right?

also, my mom now will buy my LR, salt, and the skimmer, so all left for me is sand and some water. im still not quite sure on what u say about my R/O machine. here are the models:

KENT MARINE
HI-S

lemme find a link...
ok so when looking i found this...

it looks more like this:
Kent Marine Products Maxxima R/O Units

but its name is this one:
Kent Marine Products Full Size R/O 120 Hi-S

it was for a 270gal tank so i think it has a higher GPD.

so i think i need new stuff for the inside but my dad can help me with that since he has used it many times. so unless i shouldnt bother setting it up, ill go do that when he gets back from china (buisness trip). he gets back tommorow so ill prob have it up and running on sunday (going skiing saturday!). what do you guys think? is there something im forgeting? also how much would a CUC for this size tank cost in general?
thanks guys so much for all this help, i probably wouldnt even attempt anything like this if it wasnt for this site!


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## teddyzaper (Aug 30, 2009)

oh and also, could you please list all the test kits i will need forever? like everything ill need when its setting up and when its set up. is there a packet that offers all of those, if so could you please provide a link or name?


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## teddyzaper (Aug 30, 2009)

ok so ive been doing some reaserch on fish, and here is my list of favorites, what can i have and i cant?

goes from fav to least fav, but i like em all

1. Wartskin Frogfish
2. Randall's Shrimp Goby
3. Possum Wrasse
4. Blackray Shrimp Goby
5. Wheeler's Shrimp Goby
6. Three Striped Goby
7. Tailspot Blenny


ok so what ones arent reef friendly and what ones wont work with the skimmer? oh and also if they are to big or i need more exp for them?


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

teddyzaper said:


> Could you supply a list of things i COULD get.
> 
> also, the fish store has some LR from a takedown tank and its for $2 per lb. he says it has no coraline algea. Jakarta rock that has no coralline algae on it for $2/lb.


Try not to get to hung up on what you can or can't have. These things tend to come together. A lot of this is more situational. For example, can you keep a Royal Gramma in this tank? Sure you can, based on the space you have. I would, however, want to know all the other details of the system and actually observe here as we go along, before I was comfortable telling you that this fish will do well. In other words, lets see the system in action, see how everything progresses.

Yes, purchase the Jakarta rock. This is an amazing price. However, keep in mind, pounds is not an indicator of size. Weight is determined by mass, not size. A small rock can be very heavy, and Jakarta rock is not very porous. I would compare size for size the rock you are about to purchase with other rocks of similar size. You may find that you need 20 pounds of Jakarta rock to give you the same reef build as 12 pounds of Fiji rock, for example. Simply purchasing 10 pounds is not the key. The key is to purchase enough rock to create a nice reef structure for maximum benefits.



teddyzaper said:


> oh and also, could you please list all the test kits i will need forever? like everything ill need when its setting up and when its set up. is there a packet that offers all of those, if so could you please provide a link or name?


ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, alkalinity, pH, calcium. 
Red Sea Reef Aquarium Test Kits Testing
You can wait 3 weeks or so on buying alkalinity and calcium. When you do, you will also need a buffer and calcium additive:
Kent Marine Liquid Calcium 8 oz
Kent Marine Liquid Calcium 8 oz



teddyzaper said:


> ok so ive been doing some reaserch on fish, and here is my list of favorites, what can i have and i cant?
> 1. Wartskin Frogfish
> 2. Randall's Shrimp Goby
> 3. Possum Wrasse
> ...


First, there is really no such thing as a fish that won't work with a skimmer. There are fish that are more sensitive that others, but again, lets hope that thing go great for you. Besides, on your first setup, we need to be looking at fish that are pretty easy to keep.

The only fish above that I have ever seen in an LFS is the Wheelers Shrimp Goby, which is a great little fish and fairly easy to keep. I have read articles on others, such as the Randall's, Possum, Three Striped, and Tailspot, but have no first hand experience and doubt that you will find them available. Where did this list come from? Perhaps someone else can help out on this.


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## Bluetangclan (Jan 23, 2010)

1. Wartskin Frogfish--um no way
2. Randall's Shrimp Goby
3. Possum Wrasse--Cool if you like a fish you rarely will see and might jump
4. Blackray Shrimp Goby
5. Wheeler's Shrimp Goby
6. Three Striped Goby
7. Tailspot Blenny

A goby is your best bet. I would also add a neon goby to the list as well. Bright, active, and heavily aquacultured. More importantly, cheap heheh.Like Pasfur said do not do any of them without a skimmer. Also do not add until cycle is over.

To me the main test kit you will need is the basic ones which you can find in a pack. Get the liquid, not the strips, the paper ones arent very accurate. PH, Ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. I know Petco has a complete set.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Bluetangclan said:


> To me the main test kit you will need is the basic ones which you can find in a pack. Get the liquid, not the strips, the paper ones arent very accurate. PH, Ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. I know Petco has a complete set.


I think this is another area where I often approach things a bit differently than the classic approach you read about and hear preached so often on the forums. I think Austin, Wake, OF2F, and I are all on the same page on this, which is partly what I contribute to the great success we have had on this forum in helping new hobbyists.

What I am talking about, of course, is the importance of testing for alkalinity and calcium on every marine aquarium. The reason I believe it is so important is that alkalinity is a leading indicator, so to speak, meaning that it tends to go out of sync before the other readings. Testing alkalinity allows you to see negative trends far in advance, and take action before problems arise. Interpreting alkalinity results correctly requires a calcium test result, which is why I always discuss both together.

There is certainly a huge portion of this hobby which ignores alkalinity and calcium on a fish only tank, and instead does frequent water changes and tests pH religiously. I prefer less water changes and more alkalinity and calcium testing and supplementation. Here is a thread I posted which goes into much greater detail, for anyone interested:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...calcium-testing-important-every-marine-33079/


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## teddyzaper (Aug 30, 2009)

ok so with the tests i dont wanna mess anything up so ill just get the marine one at petco which has the same as the first one u mentioned, then ill get the calcium and alkalinity.

well im gonna go look at the LR soon but i gtg to school


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## wake49 (Jul 2, 2008)

Pasfur said:


> What I am talking about, of course, is the importance of testing for alkalinity and calcium on every marine aquarium. The reason I believe it is so important is that alkalinity is a leading indicator, so to speak, meaning that it tends to go out of sync before the other readings. Testing alkalinity allows you to see negative trends far in advance, and take action before problems arise. Interpreting alkalinity results correctly requires a calcium test result, which is why I always discuss both together.


I agree with this 100%. On any given week I test Calcium, Alkalinity and pH at least once. I test pH as a precaution only to help me interpret my Alk reading past its relationship with Calcium. And every time I am just wasting testing solution, because I have yet to see a reading that wasn't pH=8.3. The relationship between Alk and Calcium tells me when to dose (Alk and Calcium) and when to do a water change. I have a tendency to do a 10% WC every week (I stop my pump and change 15 gallons out of the sump so I don't disrupt the display), so my Alk and Calcium stay good relative to each other with dosing. I use a two part dosing system: BIonic, and need to dose usually once or twice a week.


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