# alkalinity and ph during tank cycling - question from newbie



## Steph211 (Feb 16, 2011)

Hi,

I am in the process of cycling my 20g tank. My ammonia is at 0, nitrites at 5, and nitrates about 10 right now (I'm using the dip strips). I'm curious about the alkalinity and ph. I know they are related, but I don't know the specifics and I'm wondering if I should attempt to alter them or not worry about it until the tank finishes cycling.

In the beginning, my alkalinity was steady at 40 and my ph was 7 or 6.8. Over the past week or so though, the alkalinity has been anywhere from 20-60 on any given day (I have been testing the water every other day, and doing a 10-15% water change weekly). I have noticed that the ph has been hovering around 6.8-6.6, but is now down to 6.4. Should I take corrective action?

I do have some fish in the tank which I know people have differing opinions on. My LPS clerk recommended cycling with fish. I have 5 cardinal tetras, a betta, and 4 ADFs, all of which as I understand it, are fairly hardy and okay with lower ph. They all seem to be looking and acting fine. But I have also heard that the specific ph is not as important as maintaining a stable ph.

What do you think I should do? 

Thanks!

Steph


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

How long has the tank been up?
Could you get the API liquid kit please? 

The readings are not convincing. Nitrite at 5? Not 0.5? :? Test the KH and GH as well as the pH with API liquid.


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## Steph211 (Feb 16, 2011)

Thanks, Lupin. I am planning to get the liquidI kit. In fact was at LPS yesterday and they were out. : ( 

The tank has been up for 5 weeks now. According to the dip strips' color coding, my nitrites are indeed 5ppm. I know that's high (it was higher before I did a pwc). But I haven't lost anyone yet (4 ADFs, 5 cardinal tetras, and a betta).

My GH has always been 75ppm which I believe is soft.


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

Oh! Where are you located? Maybe order online?

YIKES! Nitrite at 5 ppm??? Your fish would have died by now. O.O


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I agree with Lupin, if nitrite really was 5 you would have a tank of dead fish, no question. Nothing can withstand that high a level of nitrite. Also, don't fiddle with pH and hardness, let the tank cycle and get established.

The advice from the store was bad. Cardinal tetra are one of the most sensitive fish, and should never be added to a tank that is not established (not only cycled, but then established with stable parameters). They are wild caught and very sensitive to fluctuating water, chemicals, medications, whatever.

They do need a lower pH and very soft water (the latter is perhaps even more important, as is explained in our profile of this fish, click on the shaded name to see the profile, or use the second tab from the left in the blue bar at the top. There are lots of fish in our profiles with info on this and that. If you tank pH lowers to around 6, the cardinal and Betta will do fine [though this is not a good combination, but I'll leave that for now].

The pH will naturally lower in soft water due to the biology in the tank. As mentioned, for these fish this is ideal [no idea about the ADF's].

Byron.


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## Steph211 (Feb 16, 2011)

Wow. How weird. I mean, I know the liquid test kit is the best, and I will definitely pick one up, but how can the readings be so off? The dip strips' color chart indicates it measures nitrites (NO2) in ppm (mg/L) and gives a color range from almost white = 0 to bright pink which = 10.0. It indicates 0 is safe, .5 is caution, 1.0-3.0 is stress, and 5.0-10.0 is danger. 

A chart I found that explains the nitrogen cycle mentioned keeping your nitrites below 0.75ppm. I'd been wondering about the discrepancy. Clearly since all my fish seem perfectly healthy, levels can't be that horrendous. I can't wait to test with the API kit.

Byron, I've heard completely opposite advice from multiple sources regarding the cardinals. I've heard that they're both very hardy and also that they're very sensitive. Once article I read compared them to neons and said that actually they are hardier than the neons which are domestically bred. The article concluded that since cardinals are wild caught, they are used to fluctuations of the environment as opposed to the neons who are brought up in controlled tanks. Interesting. My cardinals seem great and get along fine with the frogs and the betta. 

For now, I will not mess with the pH and GH. I'll let the cycle finish and the tank establish. I will let you know my readings once I get the good water testing kit. Now I'm really intrigued. I'll shop around tomorrow until I can find one. 

Thanks for your comments!


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

Now I am totally convinced your test strips are crap. LOL! If your nitrite was 5, your fish should have died already. No fish can really tolerate nitrite that high! It's toxic once it infiltrates their bloodstream and can burn their skin and gills severely.


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## Steph211 (Feb 16, 2011)

Then isn't it crazy that the strips' scale goes to 10.0??? Maybe it's 0.5, but they have the decimal point in the wrong place?


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

They weren't misplacing a decimal point. It's still inaccurate though because nitrite that high is no longer tolerable for any fish at all.:?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

> Byron, I've heard completely opposite advice from multiple sources regarding the cardinals. I've heard that they're both very hardy and also that they're very sensitive. Once article I read compared them to neons and said that actually they are hardier than the neons which are domestically bred. The article concluded that since cardinals are wild caught, they are used to fluctuations of the environment as opposed to the neons who are brought up in controlled tanks. Interesting. My cardinals seem great and get along fine with the frogs and the betta.


The are many aspects of this hobby on which you will find varying opinions. Nothing wrong with that in many cases, but not all. You will find many advocating maintaining a Betta in one pint of water. You will find others saying anything less than a 2 gallon tank is cruel and inhumane. One must always consider the source of the information; some is obviously reliable, some is obviously not.

To the cardinal. These fish occur in very soft and acidic water. The water tests for their natural habitat streams always show hardness so low it cannot be measured, and pH varies depending upon the stream from 3.5 to 5.5, never (to the best of my memory) higher. Most aquarists find cardinals live 2-3 years, maybe 4. That is always because of the water. The great ichthyologist Dr. Jacques Gery wrote that he maintained cardinals for more than 10 years--but only in very soft, acidic water. Dr. Stanley Weitzman had articles in TFH during the 1990's, and in several he mentioned the effect of hardness on soft water fish. Dr. Hans Baensch in his Aquarium Atlas wrote of hard water causing calcium blockages of the kidneys in cardinals, and of the fish's "light phobia" as he termed it.

Fish have been programmed by nature over thousands and millions of years to suit their environment. Some fish seem to be able to adjust to differing water parameters better than others, over generations of being tank raised. All of the "neon" species [there are 3 regularly available, and a fourth was discovered a few years ago] are sensitive to water parameters, water conditions (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate), light and water movement. Neon tetra are commercially raised and have been for decades, yet they still retain this delicate sensitivity. They will absolutely do better in soft, acidic water, notwithstanding they have been raised for generations in basic harder water.

As for the fluctuations in nature, yes--but they are controlled over various periods of time, caused by environmental factors like the rainy season and the dry season, day and night (temperature and pH fluctuations occur every 24 hours). But never are these fish subjected to ammonia or nitrite above zero, and nitrates are rarely any higher either. Plus, relatively few fish in the enormous expanse of a stream is a very different environment from the confines of a closed system in an aquarium.

Appearance can be misleading too. Fish can look alright, but inwardly a calcium blockage is still causing trouble and ultimate death. People can have cancer and not know it--and I speak as someone who has been living with recurring cancer for the past four years. But it is doing its thing notwithstanding I outwardly show no signs of it.

I mentioned the source of an opinion. I have written most of the freshwater profiles here. To do so, I research highly respected authorities. And when I see such knowledgeable ichthyologists agreeing on this or that, I accept that it is most probably correct and worth listening to. Sometimes equally eminent scientists may differ; fine, I mention that when I see it. But you won't find many such cases, and I think that speaks volumes too.

Lastly there is personal experience, which should be worth something after 20+ years of fishkeeping. I have introduced cardinals to new tanks and lost the whole group within weeks; in established mature tanks, they settle in fine. Some say they don't care about light and filter flow, I say they do. In my 115g 5-foot tank I have a group of cardinals. The filter outflow is at one end so there is a gentle current down the tank, strongest at the left end under the outflow spigot, and scarcely moving at the right end 5 feet away. The cardinals always remain at the right end of the tank, and always under cover of plants except when they surface to feed. So do the rummynose tetra for that matter. This is not co-incidence; the fish when given the option will naturally choose what they are most comfortable with, and that is what is closest to their natural environment.

Byron.


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## Steph211 (Feb 16, 2011)

Byron, thanks so much! It's great to find all these aquarium enthusiasts here in the forum and with such knowledge of fish and aquatic life. I'm definitely a newbie. I had a tank several years ago before I had children and we are now resurrecting it. My dad always had a couple of tanks going when I was growing up, so I have had some experience and some very basic knowledge, but am constantly learning. Unfortunately, chemistry was never my strong point in school, so the fine nuances of water parameters and how to make adjustments to the various levels is very intimidating to me. Hopefully my fish won't suffer too much from my ignorance.

Thanks for the info!


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## Steph211 (Feb 16, 2011)

*You're not going to believe this...*

Ok. I got the API liquid test kit today. According to it, these are my levels:

pH = 7.4 (um... ??? According to the stupid test strips it was more like 6.4! At first I tested using the regular pH bottle but got such a high reading, I decided to do the high rang pH just to be sure)

ammonia = 0-0.25 (very hard to tell on the color chart, it seemed to be in this range)

nitrite = 5.0 (it was vibrant purple! I guess my dip strips were not wrong on this one)

nitrates = 5.0 (my dip strips had it at 10)


Those test strips are seriously useless when it comes to pH! The other readings were at least close.

I will be doing a partial water change now. Do you recommend aquarium salt? I've heard different things about that. I have some, but other than when I first filled the tank, I haven't added any. The API kit recommends it to help the fish deal with nitrite toxicity. What do you guys think?

Thanks!

Steph


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## sovrappensiero (Aug 5, 2010)

If the test strips are old, that can affect their accuracy (which as we have established isn't that great to begin with). Also, if they've been exposed to something in the air that "might" have an effect (no idea...just surmising).

I still can't believe you're nitrites are 5.0. Something is up...maybe you could post a picture on here? It will undoubtedly be a little off, depending on your camera, the lighting, and the quality of viewer's computer monitors, but it would at least be something. It's not that I don't trust you're ability to compare a tube to a chart...it's just that I find it really incredulous that fish could be alive and swimming in that environment. 

Also, be sure you read the directions closely - for the API kit it's 5 drops for the nitrite test. Once again, this is not to make you sound incapable....I'm speaking as someone who has done this sort of thing before (adding too many drops or too few...oh and once I did a "nitrate" test using the nitrite test bottle and one of the nitrate bottles... sad but true).


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## Steph211 (Feb 16, 2011)

The test strips are new. I bought them less than two months ago and the expiration stamp is for 2012. No idea what could have "tainted" them, I am careful to keep my hands dry when handling them and keep the lid tightly on.

I read the directions three times before I did the tests. I am sure I did 5 drops and sure I used the correct bottle. It was my first time using the kit and so I was compulsively careful. 

I don't have the test results anymore. I've already rinsed out the test tubes, but I SWEAR it was bright, bright purple. The regular pH and the ammonia colors were a little hard to determine (using the high range pH test cleared that up for me, and the ammonia color was definitely somewhere between the 0 and the 0.25 shades), but the nitrite was clear.

I must have some very hardy fish in this tank or they are fooling me completely and will be belly up tomorrow. I don't get it.

I just did a pwc (about 40-50%). I went ahead an added some aquarium salt (though now I'm nervous because I think one of my ADFs just tried to eat a grain of it). The nitrite reading is now more like 2.0. I just took a picture of it. I'll try to post it here somehow. I even tried to take a picture of my tank so you can see 6 fish and 4 frogs very much alive in it, but the lighting and glare are working against me now. Trust me though that they are all alive and acting normally as far as I can tell (though as Byron pointed out, you don't always know what's going on inside).

Thanks for your help! Off to post a photo.


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## Steph211 (Feb 16, 2011)

Ok, here is a picture of my post-pwc nitrites test:


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## sovrappensiero (Aug 5, 2010)

Ok, so...now that I feel more reasonably confident that it's not a problem with user error...I googled this because, really, I just don't know what's going on (that's not saying much cause I'm no expert, but I have kept fish successfully for several years in high school, and recently started again). First I might do if I were you is to test your tap water. Let it sit out for 12 hours and then test using the API kit, same way you test your tank water. Let us know what the results are. Maybe you have high nitrites in your tap water. My tap water has 0.25ppm ammonia lately (but not always). You could contact your water supply co. and ask about any recent changes. Although, speaking from experience that did not work for me - my local water supply co. hung up on me when I said, "Hello is this Cobb County Water?" :roll:

In any case, I find it invaluable to check my tap water when I do water changes. The parameters can and do change...and it's better to know before; at least you're prepared.

Now, here are the fruits of my brief search:

Prime/Nitrite - Seachem Support Forums
- someone with a similar problem; I was initially looking to see if Seachem Prime can detoxify nitrites as well as ammonia. I'm no chemistry expert...although it's a fun subject. They briefly discuss the importance of having an oxygen-rich environment for your biological filter's health (i.e. to keep ammonia and nitrites low), and some other stuff.

Freshwater Aquarium: extremely HIGH nitrite levels, ammonia level, nitrate levels
- another person with a similar problem. More talk about getting your filter fully cycled.

I don't remember if you mentioned how long your tank has been set up? It may still be in the middle of the cycle, when nitrites rise (after the ammonia spike and before the gradual rise in nitrates). Your nitrate reading (which I don't remember but it wasn't 0) may be an artifact from nitrates present in your tap water...

At least it's a start. I know it doesn't help much when people say "That's impossible!" because clearly it must not be if you're using a brand-new kit (or in your case, 2!) and you're not making any mistakes. Wait for some experts to chime in before you do anything; I know it's painful to sit not knowing what's going on, but keep in mind that the most stressful thing for fish is rapid CHANGE in water parameters. That doesn't mean you don't need to take care of your nitrites ASAP, it just means wait until some experts provide you with a clear plan of what to do. In the meantime, keep testing, and if things get worse, then do a water change. But it seems from those two links that water changes didn't solve those people's problem.

So, some useful info experts might need in order to help:

1. Is your tank still cycling? (maybe you already said this...)
2. What are the parameters of your tap water?


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## sovrappensiero (Aug 5, 2010)

Just saw the pic - thanks. Yeah to me that looks like it's between 2 and 5 ppm...but I've never actually seen a nitrite reading greater than 0.25ppm (my tank has been planted since day 1). Maybe while you've got the test kit out and are feeling like a chemist you can the tthe other numbers as well (from the tap)?

You don't necessarily have to leave the water out for 12 hours. I'd say don't - that would waste time in this case. That recommendation is more for the pH I believe...maybe you can do one test now and also set some water out for tomorrow's test?


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## Steph211 (Feb 16, 2011)

Thanks! I will take a look at those links. I am still cycling the tank. I set it up about 5 weeks ago, so I know the nitrite spike is normal, but everyone seems to think these readings are crazy high. I should mention I am using Seachem's Prime and Stability. Maybe these are helping the fish to tolerate the high levels?

I have to go out for a bit this afternoon, but tonight I will test my tap water to see where that's at. I'll put some out now to sit for a few hours before I test tonight.

Thanks so much for your input!


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## sovrappensiero (Aug 5, 2010)

Ahhhh yes. I would put my money on the Prime. Even though it detoxifies the nitrites and ammonia so they don't negatively affect the fish, they still will show up on a test. 

The numbers are not crazy high for a tank that is still cycling. I think they're actually quite normal, if I'm not mistaken.

Calling an expert for advice here!!! I don't know if the Prime affects the development of the beneficial bacteria colony in the tank... However, I definitely DO NOT recommend you stop using it - I'm almost sure it's what's keeping your fish alive. 

Tank cycling is a waiting game...you just have to wait until the cycle completes itself. Once that happens it will be a matter of balancing water changes, bioload, and feeding regimen to maintain good water quality (ammonia and nitrite = 0, nitrates as low as possible).


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

This is making some sense. Your tank is in the middle of the initial cycle, hence the high nitrite. At this stage it is crucial to keep nitrite below .25, and that means daily 50% partial water changes with Prime. Stability is good, it is 100% bacteria and will help seed the bacteria.

Prime detoxifies substances for 24-48 hours max, according to Seachem. So a daily pwc with Prime while nitrite is above .25 will be fine. I don't know how Prime detoxifies nitrite, I did research this once, but have forgotten, but I do know Seachem says it only works for 24-48 hours, I asked them specifically.

On the pH, which test to use. I would test your tap water with both tests--and here, let a cup of water sit overnight. Then compare the results with your water supply folks' pH info to see which is closest. "|Low", "High" and "Normal" pH test kits read differently for the same water, so you want to find the one that is closest and stick with it, otherwise you will have inaccurate data. Also, pH tests of tank water should always be done the same time of day, as there is a diurnal fluctuation which will make it appear higher/lower if taken at different times of the day. And always in daylight if possible, so the colours are true; artificial light will distort colours, depending upon the colour of the light.

Byron.


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## Steph211 (Feb 16, 2011)

I tested my tap water today and it showed 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites, pH was 7.4. So from that I gather my tap water isn't doing anything to affect my tank's parameters, right?

I tested the tank water and the nitrites seemed to be back up to 5 again (though the color distinction between 2 and 5 is fairly minimal). I just did another 50% pwc, adding more Prime to the fresh water.

Would you recommend I just keep up with the daily changes until the nitrites drop? My nitrates were at 5 today. Where do they usually level off at? I think I've read anywhere under 40 is good, but other sources said under 25 is best.


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

Steph211 said:


> I tested my tap water today and it showed 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites, pH was 7.4. So from that I gather my tap water isn't doing anything to affect my tank's parameters, right?
> 
> I tested the tank water and the nitrites seemed to be back up to 5 again (though the color distinction between 2 and 5 is fairly minimal). I just did another 50% pwc, adding more Prime to the fresh water.
> 
> Would you recommend I just keep up with the daily changes until the nitrites drop? My nitrates were at 5 today. Where do they usually level off at? I think I've read anywhere under 40 is good, but other sources said under 25 is best.


The lower the nitrate, the better.

Looks like your tap is safe then. Need to do more water changes until nitrite is back to zero especially if you have fish around.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I fully agree with Lupin on both issues.

There is varying opinion on nitrates. You will read some suggesting 40ppm is fine, a few even higher, but most of us on here seem to be in the under 20ppm crowd. Fish in nature are not usually exposed to nitrates in any measureable amount, hence Lupin's comment the lower the better.

This is one of several reasons why fish love water changes; they reduce nitrates (unless of course they are in the tap water). They do much more of course, but I won't jump into that.

Nitrates usually climb at first after the cycle, then taper off lower.


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## Steph211 (Feb 16, 2011)

Thanks very much! I'll keep up with the pwc's and keep monitoring my levels. You've all been very helpful!


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## Steph211 (Feb 16, 2011)

Just updating in case anyone is interested but my tank FINALLY cycled! It's been 8 weeks but I finally have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and am at about 2ppm nitrates. My frogs, cardinals and betta all survived, thank goodness. Thanks again for your help!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

You're welcome. It's good to hear of success.


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