# PLZ Help on a 20 gallon FOWLR



## Stingray81

Hi,
I'm looking at setting up my *first* saltwater aquarium i have been doing a lot of research and i have decided i want to do a fowlr in a 20 gallon long tank I've had for awhile.I've had lots of experience with keeping fish in the past and am actually running a freshwater tank right now :-D. I have most of the supplies already, here are the things i already have:

-a heater
-salt mix
-ammonia,PH,nitrite,and nitrate test kits
-a *BIG* HOB tetra filter
-tank
-fluorescent light 
-hydrometer
-crushed coral
-thermometer 
- and I'm in the process of trying to find a protein skimmer

:| please tell me if theirs anything i need besides what i already have, and if you could help on how to do water changes and maintain the tank.

Thanks


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## Reefing Madness

At least 20 lbs of Live Rock, for natural filtration. For water changes, mix up the mix at least 24 hours before the change. you want to change 1/4 of the water every 2-3 weeks. Watch your Nitrates in a FOWLR, as these might creep up on you if your doing every 3 week changes, you may need to change it to every 2 weeks.


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## Caligirl330

I agree you will need at least 20 lbs of live rock or more and I would also suggest about 20 lbs of live sand too, it will help serve the same purpose as the live rock and provide more natural filtration. Clean the sand thoroughly if you decide to get some. I cleaned mine by putting the sand into a clean bucket and added tap water that I treated with Amquel an ammonia and nitrate remover (I used tap water to clean the sand because Using my RO/DI to clean the sand would be a little expensive) then swirled the sand around and dump out the water and then add more treated tap water until the water was less cloudy (about 5 times each sand load) there are other ways that you could clean the sand as well thats just my way:-D. You may already know this but only use RO/DI water when doing water changes and one more thing you could put on your list of things to get is at least 2 water jugs to store back up RO/DI water for top offs or water changes. Reef Madness is right FOWLRS tend to get nitrate spikes and sometimes when this happens to my FOWLR I do small daily water changes until my water params look good. Good luck!


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## Reefing Madness

Caligirl330 said:


> I agree you will need at least 20 lbs of live rock or more and I would also suggest about 20 lbs of live sand too, it will help serve the same purpose as the live rock and provide more natural filtration. Clean the sand thoroughly if you decide to get some. I cleaned mine by putting the sand into a clean bucket and added tap water that I treated with Amquel an ammonia and nitrate remover (I used tap water to clean the sand because Using my RO/DI to clean the sand would be a little expensive) then swirled the sand around and dump out the water and then add more treated tap water until the water was less cloudy (about 5 times each sand load) there are other ways that you could clean the sand as well thats just my way:-D. You may already know this but only use RO/DI water when doing water changes and one more thing you could put on your list of things to get is at least 2 water jugs to store back up RO/DI water for top offs or water changes. Reef Madness is right FOWLRS tend to get nitrate spikes and sometimes when this happens to my FOWLR I do small daily water changes until my water params look good. Good luck!


 :thumbsup:


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## Stingray81

Caligirl330 said:


> I agree you will need at least 20 lbs of live rock or more and I would also suggest about 20 lbs of live sand too, it will help serve the same purpose as the live rock and provide more natural filtration. Clean the sand thoroughly if you decide to get some. I cleaned mine by putting the sand into a clean bucket and added tap water that I treated with Amquel an ammonia and nitrate remover (I used tap water to clean the sand because Using my RO/DI to clean the sand would be a little expensive) then swirled the sand around and dump out the water and then add more treated tap water until the water was less cloudy (about 5 times each sand load) there are other ways that you could clean the sand as well thats just my way:-D. You may already know this but only use RO/DI water when doing water changes and one more thing you could put on your list of things to get is at least 2 water jugs to store back up RO/DI water for top offs or water changes. Reef Madness is right FOWLRS tend to get nitrate spikes and sometimes when this happens to my FOWLR I do small daily water changes until my water params look good. Good luck!


yes,i am working on getting live rock i was told the more rock you put in you tank the easier it will cycle, my tank is a twenty gallon *long*,i was also told that crushed coral works good for a fowlr because it stables the ph? i don't know if that is 100% true or not.Also my water isn't tap water it is well water i use it for all my freshwater aquariums and it dose fine i don't have to add anything to it like you would with tap water,does that also apply with saltwater?Also do i really need a a protein skimmer? people are telling me i don't need one because im not doing corals and my tank isn't big enough to require one?


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## Reefing Madness

As long as you keep up on water changes, then no, you don't need a skimmer. Skimmers remove organics from the water column before they can become an issue. ie, Nitrates. I use Crushed Coral #0 in my tank, never had an issue with PH. As far as using Well Water, it all depends on whats in it. Salt creatures don't like alot of crap in the water. you'll have to test it and see if it contains anything harmful.


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## Stingray81

ok,everyone is saying i need live sand in a fowlr because it reduces nitrate spikes it that true?also my water is fine it doesn't have any chlorine or anything in it


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## Reefing Madness

Stingray81 said:


> ok,everyone is saying i need live sand in a fowlr because it reduces nitrate spikes it that true?also my water is fine it doesn't have any chlorine or anything in it


 No, you do not need Live Sand if you don't want to use it. Its not necessary for a FOWLR. You could use CC, or go Bare Bottom. Its up to you on this one. Try to stay away from big Crushed Coral type substrait, as it will get hold of food debre and turn it into a Nitrate factory on you. Crushed Coral in the Xfine +0 is fine.


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## Caligirl330

That is true you don't have to have live sand if you don't want. Plenty of people do bare bottom tanks. The Live sand will just help with the nitrates just like the live rock because they are natural filters and if you plan on getting any wrasses or sand dwelling fish it will make them feel more at home.


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## Stingray81

Ok i've had my tank setup for about a week now all i have in it is my crushed coral and saltwater and my heater, unfortunatly my filter broke i should be getting a marineland biowheel 350 tomarrow, the guy at my saltwater only aquarium store said it will be really hard to keep the nitrates down, to be honest im kinda worried about that should i just go ahead and get a skimmer? Would that help in anyway? Also im getting about 35-40 LB's of marshall island live rock
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Stingray81

And i just bought a wavemaker aswell
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caligirl330

A skimmer is defiantly going to help keep the nitrates down. You don't have to have a skimmer in the beginning of your cycling process though, in fact some recommend not using one until the tank is cycled and you have fish so that the skimmer has bio load to skim. I would recommend getting a skimmer especially because you have crushed coral which it can be a breeding ground for nitrates. Also I wouldn't consider your true cycling process started until you have put the live rock in because that needs to cure for 3-6 weeks before the water quality to be stable to add livestock. You are also bound to have a nitrate or ammonia spikes during the cycling process, just get your filter running and maintain the salinity by topping off the water and then watch the nitrite, nitrates, ammonia, and PH and the hardest part I know but be patient that is the key to this hobby :lol:


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## Reefing Madness

Stingray81 said:


> Ok i've had my tank setup for about a week now all i have in it is my crushed coral and saltwater and my heater, unfortunatly my filter broke i should be getting a marineland biowheel 350 tomarrow, the guy at my saltwater only aquarium store said it will be really hard to keep the nitrates down, to be honest im kinda worried about that should i just go ahead and get a skimmer? Would that help in anyway? Also im getting about 35-40 LB's of marshall island live rock
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Ok cool, your getting set here. Scrap the filter. its going to be a Nitrate trap for you. you'll have issues with it. Buy a skimmer rated at twice the size of your tank. That with the Live Rock your getting and your all set. You don't need a filter. Look at my tank, I have 240 gallons, and no filter, just the skimmer. Oh, but you will need a couple of powerheads to move the wate raround in the tank. Couple of 200gph powerheads should do ya nicely.


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## Stingray81

k thanks guys your really helping me out here.... i really had know idea what i had to get or do bcuz people where just trying to get me to buy stuff that i obviously DON'T NEED


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## Caligirl330

If you are still going to get the HOB filter I would suggest getting a AquaClear filter instead of the marineland, I have both types of filters and the AquaClear is better. You can add Chemi Pure in the Aqua clear which will help stabilize your water chemistry by balancing the PH and keeping bacteria from building up. The Mairneland is noisier too... I have read not to add carbon/Chemi-pure in the very beginning of the cycling process. I would suggest to add carbon (or Chemi-Pure if you decide to get the AquaClear HOB Filter) about 2-3 weeks after you have added your live rock. The reason is, in the beginning you want the beneficial bacteria to build up but then you have to control it and that is where the carbon or media filter (chemi-pure) comes in. One more thing have you tested the freshwater you use to mix the salt? It might be loaded with ammonia or nitrates and if so you can treat it with AmQuel which help remove the toxins. I would highly recommend, If it possible, for you to use RO/DI water instead of well water. I am supper careful about the water I use now because I have learned the hard way before. 

Here is a link to a website explaining the benefits to Chemi- pure

Chemi-Pure filters organic particulates from your tank.


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## Reefing Madness

Caligirl330 said:


> If you are still going to get the HOB filter I would suggest getting a AquaClear filter instead of the marineland, I have both types of filters and the AquaClear is better. You can add Chemi Pure in the Aqua clear which will help stabilize your water chemistry by balancing the PH and keeping bacteria from building up. The Mairneland is noisier too... I have read not to add carbon/Chemi-pure in the very beginning of the cycling process. I would suggest to add carbon (or Chemi-Pure if you decide to get the AquaClear HOB Filter) about 2-3 weeks after you have added your live rock. The reason is, in the beginning you want the beneficial bacteria to build up but then you have to control it and that is where the carbon or media filter (chemi-pure) comes in. One more thing have you tested the freshwater you use to mix the salt? It might be loaded with ammonia or nitrates and if so you can treat it with AmQuel which help remove the toxins. I would highly recommend, If it possible, for you to use RO/DI water instead of well water. I am supper careful about the water I use now because I have learned the hard way before.
> 
> Here is a link to a website explaining the benefits to Chemi- pure
> 
> Chemi-Pure filters organic particulates from your tank.


 :thumbsup:


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## Stingray81

i just orderd some fiji premium live rock about 25LB's what do i do when it gets here do i have to cure it? do i have to add anything in the water to start the cycle?


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## Stingray81

And wait so i don't need a filter not even a little one? Because if i don't i can send mine back and get a protein skimmer cuz the one i got is rated up to 60 gallons i thought the bigger the filter the better? Plus it has two bio wheels if tht even does anything?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Reefing Madness

Stingray81 said:


> And wait so i don't need a filter not even a little one? Because if i don't i can send mine back and get a protein skimmer cuz the one i got is rated up to 60 gallons i thought the bigger the filter the better? Plus it has two bio wheels if tht even does anything?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Send it back and get a skimmer rated at twice your water volume.:-D


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## Caligirl330

The bio wheels are mainly for fresh water I removed them for my tank. It is good to have a filter for adding media (carbon) to the tank but a skimmer is more effective at removing organic waste that will eventually break down into ammonia. A filter will remove the larger floating particles in the water and sometimes those particles will build up and clog the filter and create nitrates, that is why you have to clean your filter every once in a while. A skimmer will collect all the waste in a cup and it is easy to dump. 

Personally I use a AquaClear filter (with Chemi-Pure) and a Remora skimmer in my 37 gallon reef and my nitrates/ammonia (knock on wood) are always at zero. In my 75 gallon Fish only I have 2 skimmers (Remora and a Coralife Super Skimmer) and a Marineland filter (with just carbon) and I have a really hard time with keeping my nitrates down. I think that the Chemi-Pure in my AquaClear filter stabilizes the water quality in my 37 gallon. Every tank will have it's own specific needs and in the beginning that is a part of the process to try and figure it out.

You can put the live rock in your tank, run the filter or skimmer, keep the water circulating and maintain the salinity by topping off the water with RO/DI and eventually the nitrates/ammonia from the live rock will decrease. You don't have to do a water change for the first 2-3 weeks. If your nitrates and ammonia are high after 2-3 wks you can do a % water change then. Once the Parameters stabilize without anymore spikes then it is cycled and safe to start adding livestock.

Is your tank going to be a Fish only with Live Rock (FOWLR) or a reef? Snails and hermit crabs are an excellent clean up crew to eat algae and excess food that doesn't get eaten and they keep the ammonia and nitrates down but if you plan on having a FOWLR with a trigger/puffer then you can't have the snails and crabs because the trigger/puffers will eat them...


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## cro117

just a few things to add/clarify. "live" sand is just a term for sand with bacteria, personally i don't trust buying it as live. after you add sand to the tank it will only be a mater of months before your sand is more "live" then any you would buy. live rock is the same except i trust the "live" label far more, depending of course were you get it. any time you add live rock to your tank you must take into account that there will be some die off, but generally its not too bad. you can get base rock to prevent this small ammonia spike. base rock will become live rove in time.

ok, on to filtration. it is important to understand what the filter does when deciding whether or not it is necessary. hob filters usually have an area for biological filtration( aerobic bacteria), mechanical, mechanical, and chemical. usually carbon is useless unless you need to remove something like medication. mechanical can be useful depending on the setup, i found restricting flow in a reef system can cause problems when you start to collect livening organisms like plankton and they die and cause unnecessary ammonia in the tank. in a fish only they may be somewhat useful, but i dont think id personally worry about it. personally i would just get a good pump to pump about 200 to 300 gallon per hour, and let the live rock do the biological filtration. Were there is oxygen available there will be aerobic bacteria. these will take care of your ammonias and nitrites. if you have a proper amount of live rock, you don't need to have a hob filter at all. 

as for nitrates, most systems aren't equipped to handle them. this is why you hear talk of nitrate spikes. the only way to really handle nitrates is with anaerobic (no oxygen) bacteria. normally i would just suggest an addition of a mud filter, but in the spirit of keeping with the simple fish only system i would instead suggest to simple add more sand. probably about 4-5" with mounding it in the back to be more should give you a balance of anaerobic conditions while still leavening some space left in the tank. it probably sounds like a lot of wasted display space and needless expense, but i promise you there is no better way to take care of nitrates in your setup. you may even be able to skip some water changes once your substrate matures.

as far as the substrate to use you will need fine substrate to restricted the oxygen. you can certainly mix coarse with it, some burrowers like this option, some don't, but you will definitely need fine substrate as the base.

you can take the nitrate elimination one step further and introduce an algae to your tank. there are many species of beautiful macro algae that will not only add to your tanks appearance but can do a wonderful job keeping your water parameters ideal, as well as out compete some of the pest algae that often trouble fish only systems. just keep in mind that some species can grow pretty fast, not necessarily a bad thing, the faster they grow the more they are cleaning your tank, but its something to be aware of. probably a good idea to make a new post if you decide to go with macro algae asking about the specific species your considering.

so basically what id put down on your list of things to get; a strong pump, more aragonite, and maybe a little more live rock or base rock if needed. a skimmer is always good when you don't have a mud filter, but you may be able to skip it. i would say let your sand bed mature, 4-6 months, and see.


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## cro117

oops, im an idiot. i posted a reply without even noticing that there were 3 pages of responses, lol. i only read the first page so my reply might not make much sense or be extremely redundant.

if no one has mentioned deep sand beds yet or macro algae though, you might still find it helpful.

and now im off to find a 5 year old post i can reply to.


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## cro117

ok i just read over the other posts i missed. i just wanted to briefly tell you not to add cycle. the live rock already has bacteria, and adding cycle is just adding more bacteria. best case; it's useless, worst case; it can be harmful. if there is too much bacteria and not enough ammonia the bacteria can go dormant. then you will get another ammonia spike. this can sometimes go on months longer then if you started off with too little bacteria and let the colony grow to the size that is right for the tank.


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## Reefing Madness

cro117 said:


> oops, im an idiot. i posted a reply without even noticing that there were 3 pages of responses, lol. i only read the first page so my reply might not make much sense or be extremely redundant.
> 
> if no one has mentioned deep sand beds yet or macro algae though, you might still find it helpful.
> 
> *and now im off to find a 5 year old post i can reply to*.


:rofl:


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## Stingray81

ok first off you gotta understand i really have no idea of anything you are talking about LOL,i just want to run a simple fowlr aquarium without having to worry about anything i know pretty much everything about the subject but i have few more questions i would be very pleased if you could answer them for me.

#1- i got a wave maker from my saltwater only fish store and it 1300 GPH! i didn't really think before i got it because i only have a 20 gallon tank it's literally making waves in my tank! is 1300 GPH too strong for my tank?
#2-the HOB filter i have ordered it a marine land bio wheel 350,i don't really care too much if it makes a lot of noise i just want it to get the job done and now im hearing that there really is no job for it to get done should i send it back and just get a regular filter? and not one thats expensive and not going to benefit anything in my tank or will it?because if i don't need it i can get a cheaper one and you the left over money towards getting a protein skimmer.
#3-my substrate right now it crushed coral #0 i have that in my tank with saltwater and a wave maker going,should i replace the coral with live sand? will the sand have alot more benefits to the tank? and would it be worth changing it?

these questions are open to anyone that wants to answer(let me rephrase: "anyone please answer" LOL)


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## Stingray81

also i forgot to say im getting in 25 LB's of live rock this monday or tuesday ,at least thats taken care of.


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## cro117

i'll just give you a brief rundown of filtrations and you can make your own call.

firstly you have aerobic (needs oxygen) bacteria, generally these are the only ones known to most hobbyist and are commonly just referred to as good bacteria. ammonia and nitrites are converted into nitrates by these bacteria. all they need is an oxygen rich environment and surface area to grow on. thats why a bio wheel is designed to be partially out of the water, maximum oxygen. liverock is a great breeding ground for these bacteria though and should provide all that you will need with strong enough flow.

anaerobic (no oxygen) bacteria are generally unknown, ignored, or falsely though of as harmful. these will basically convert nitrate into nitrogen gasses. harmful gasses are also produced which is were the bad rep comes from, but as long as the sand bed is not greatly disturbed these gasses are diffused by oxygen as the rise to the surface and are of no harm. to attain anaerobic conditions all that is needed is a deep sand bed, usually 4-6", and thats it. 

a protein skimmer uses neither of these filters and can in a way be thought of as not doing anything other then removing the potential for waste. if used they can help to increase the efficiency of the bacteria by reducing the amount of ammonia in the tank. they are always a good idea, but not always necessary, and can easily be added at a later time.

ok, now to address your specific equipment, the bio wheel may help as a mechanical filter, similar to a skimmer, but if it were me i wouldn't waste the money. the pump is definitely too strong. most recommend to turn over a reef tank 10-20 times an hour, but this is accommodating coral feeding and waste expulsion so you may be able to get away with less. i have heard of people turning over a tank 50x per hour though, but yours is still high for that.


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## Reefing Madness

Stingray81 said:


> ok first off you gotta understand i really have no idea of anything you are talking about LOL,i just want to run a simple fowlr aquarium without having to worry about anything i know pretty much everything about the subject but i have few more questions i would be very pleased if you could answer them for me.
> 
> #1- i got a wave maker from my saltwater only fish store and it 1300 GPH! i didn't really think before i got it because i only have a 20 gallon tank it's literally making waves in my tank! is 1300 GPH too strong for my tank?
> *Ditch the Wave Maker, not needed for FOWLR. To strong? Na, not with fish only, they kinda need to for excercise. Try using Powerheads instead. Get a couple of them for good flow.*
> #2-the HOB filter i have ordered it a marine land bio wheel 350,i don't really care too much if it makes a lot of noise i just want it to get the job done and now im hearing that there really is no job for it to get done should i send it back and just get a regular filter? and not one thats expensive and not going to benefit anything in my tank or will it?because if i don't need it i can get a cheaper one and you the left over money towards getting a protein skimmer.
> *The Bio-Wheel will give you a headache when it comes to High Nitrates, but will kinda filter the water. I'd ditch it myself, get a Skimmer rated at twice your water volume. Since thats somehwhat difficult, I'd suggest the CoraLife SuperSkimmer 65g. That should skim the crap outta that tank for you.*
> #3-my substrate right now it crushed coral #0 i have that in my tank with saltwater and a wave maker going,should i replace the coral with live sand? will the sand have alot more benefits to the tank? and would it be worth changing it?
> *#0 CC is good to use, you won't have any problems with that. All the biologicals will grow in that just as well as sand. Its the bigger CC that causes trouble.*
> these questions are open to anyone that wants to answer(let me rephrase: "anyone please answer" LOL)


Answers in *Red .:-D*


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## Caligirl330

I agree the wave maker sounds like too much water flow, but fish do like some current to swim in so a couple of power heads, one on each side of the tank should be good.

Live sand is beneficial by acting as a natural filter like the LR, you could probably get a little and place under the crushed coral...25lbs of LR is sufficient for your tank but at first will probably cause a spike which is normal.

I have always heard that as far as filters go AquaClear is a good choice and it is around $26-$34 but the Marineland will work. Like I said before I have both but it seems to me that the aquaclear gets the job done better and I hardly ever have nitrates with it. The skimmer can wait but will be a good idea in the future.


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## Stingray81

do you think i could kinda like mix tha crushed coral and live sand together? i think what ill do is see how the filter works for me and then get a skimmer later on also ive seen these things called nitrate filters do you guys recommend those? it seems like they make your water quality crazzy good which is good for a fowlr


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## Reefing Madness

I would not mix CC and Sand. The sand will always end up on the bottom and the CC will end up on top, no matter how you want to mix em up. DeNitrators do work, but they are notorious for clogging up on you, you can however install a prefilter to ensure that no debre gets into the line. I'd use one myself.


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## cro117

ya you can mix them without any problems. as far as nitrate filter im not sure, the ones i've heard of are pretty much just a gimmick. could you get me some more info like a name or a link? i am very curious about any filtration claiming to eliminate nitrates.


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## onefish2fish

cali said it, bio wheels are freshwater filters.

since your tank is 20 gallons, i would not suggest any triggers or puffers. you have to also keep in mind the space lost from the displacement of live rock, so really, your tank is only 10-15 gallons space wise. 
what are you planning on stocking the tank with? i suggest creating a list now for everything you want in it. you wont be able to add everything at once but you can then look at the list and decide the order of what things will be added in.


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## Stingray81

2 clowns , and I don't know if I can but I really want a hawkfish I'm also gonna start out with some dAmsels before everything, I'd like to have alot of snails, hermits and such. And I don't know If this is possible or not but in the wayyyyy near futur I want to get a starfish
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## onefish2fish

why damsels? keep them in the store, if you need to feed your cycle, use a raw shrimp.

a good mixture of snails and the 2 clowns sounds good. i personally dont like hermits ( or really any type of crab for that matter ) 
it seems the hermits tend to rip the snails from their shells only to find they dont want to use that shell. the starfish and hawkfish im on the fence about.. if you do get a star, give your tank about a year first. the only reason the hawk may work is because they just sit, basically taking up no room in the tank, HOWEVER it will still add to the bioload.
i suggest when the time is right to start with a few different types of snails, alittle time after that add your clowns, after atleast a month, if not 2-3 + months see where your levels are, if they can indicate your tank being able to handle one last and final fish, the hawk can be added. 
you seem to be very well on the right track, remember to read and research and take your time! good luck.


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## Stingray81

I just thought that damsels where good fish to start out with plus there cheap if the hawkfish dosent work out I'll prob just get a goby I want one fish tht just moves on the ground mainly because I have a pretty thick crushed coral bed
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caligirl330

Damsels are great starter fish because they are very hardy but they are little brats IMO. They can be very aggressive and claim the whole tank as their territory and bully the other fish. Especially if they are the first ones in the tank. 
I started off with a yellow belly damsel (which are supposed to be nicer) in my 75g fowlr and a few weeks later I added a Maroon clown, which was my mistake because damsels and clowns don't usually get a long very well because they are in the same family. My poor Maroon clown was confined to a little corner and if she tried moving the damsel attacked. I had to trap the damsel out of the tank because he was too mean and picked on my Rabbit fish as well. Since you plan on getting a clownfish pair I wouldn't get a damsel, thats my opinion. 
People will also suggest Chromis to start off with because they are so hardy, I personally think chromis are boring to watch and not very colorful and LFS will say they do better in groups of three which is way to many for your tank. Clownfish are very hardy and it would be ok to start with them as your first fish. Just make sure that you have tested your water thoroughly before you add anything. 
It is a very good idea to add a clean up crew to your tank first. In the cycling process you want to see signs of life such as algae forming. Once you see this, usually at least 2-3 weeks into the process, then you want the snails and hermits to clean it up. Then test the water and with in a couple of weeks it should be ok to add your fish.
As far as the starfish go...If you never plan of getting corals chocolate chip stars can be pretty hardy. Stay away from linkia stars, epecially the blue ones, in the begginning because they can be more demanding. As onefish2fish said waiting is a good idea because it takes time for the tank to create a substancial food source. To be completly honest I added starfish about 2 months after my tank was set up :shock: BUT I have my reasons...
I made my fish list way in advance (like onefish2fish suggested ) and knew that I was going to add a puffer and trigger in the future so I couldn't have snails and hermits to scavenge the tank, therefore I didn't have them to compete for food with the star fish. I did get a few snails and hermits first but transferred them out of my FOWLR and into my reef. Whenever possible I drop shrimp/food on their mouth just to make sure they are getting food.
I really appreciate that you are asking all these questions because to me that shows you really care and you are getting great advice from everyone. I can't wait to see how your tank turns out so keep us updated!


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## onefish2fish

IMO why add a fish when you can add a dead raw shrimp if needed.

i also dont suggest getting something to keep short time. this is a long term hobby and i know 10+ year old clownfish. another problem with the damsel is catching it when the time comes. it may not sound hard, but once it knows the tank and can work its way around the live rock, catching it in a net can be tricky. it may not find itself into a fish trap and taking out rock to catch the fish might be needed. just my opinion.


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## Stingray81

my fish store actually does "trade ins" so if i get the damsels ill just trade in in for a clown


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## onefish2fish

so your going to put stress on more fish then needed by adding them to a newly cycled tank, possibly even un-cycled tank, just to have fish?
i dont see why you would buy a new honda, only to break it in and bring it to the toyota dealership to trade it in for a new toyota. why not settle with the toyota when ready for it to begin with? 
i hope you dont take that as any kind of attack, just my opinion, i guess to each their own.


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## cro117

lol, i don't think you have any idea what your getting yourself into with a damsel. they will claim the tank as cali girl said, and are often times not too keen on leavening it. the number one compatibility issue in saltwater aquariums in my experience is hands down damsel issues, and often times the resolution involved tearing apart the whole aquarium trying to catch them. most of the cases of people crashing their live rock were related to damsel removal. 

you can use a trap and it seemed like many customers had fairly good results doing so, but its a pain and can be pricey. both hawkfish and gobies are pretty hardy. i would start off with a reasonable fishless cycle, a few palmfulls of food or so, then after that spike starts to settle add some nasariouss and overfeed, after that hermits and continue overfeeding, a while after that let it settle then you should be good for a hardy none damsel fish. monitor the tank for a while after the addition of a few hardy fish and if all seems well without any major fluctuations then your ready for your clownfish. be cautious in your selection though because clownfish take some serious abuse at wholesalers.

damsels are really really bad fish. if you actually want damsels for more then just cycling purposes that’s fine, but I recommend to add them last. as caligirl mentioned they claim the tank and become very territorial. I once had a customer who actually had a pair of clowns with a damsel once. he lost one of them and could never replace it because the damsel he had in the tank never allowed new fish.


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## Reefing Madness

cro117 said:


> ya you can mix them without any problems. as far as nitrate filter im not sure, the ones i've heard of are pretty much just a gimmick. could you get me some more info like a name or a link? *i am very curious about any filtration claiming to eliminate nitrate*s.


:shock:
Aquaworld Aquarium - The Denitrator
Sulphur Denitrator - RTAW Reefpedia
The Sulpher Denitrator is actually better than the regular one, and can be taken off the system once the trates have been laid to rest, then added again if they go up.


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## cro117

great links reefmadness. i never actually played with a sulphur denitrator myself so i wont make any comments on that. the denitrator in the first link though actualy looks like it could have potential, depending on its costs. my money will always be on the good old fashion mud filter mixed with a little peat soil. not only does it take care of nitrates in a natural way, it also provides a breeding ground for plankton and other small invertabrates.

another concern with the filter in the first link is that the water returning to the tank may contain toxic byproducts and should be exposed to oxygen before coming in contact with animal life, maybe it dissipates fast enough though to not cause harm. im a mud filter it is taken care of at a slow rate via diffusion and is detoxed as it rises to the surface in the 1-2" of surface substrate.

i still say the cheapest and easiest way to manage nitrates is simply a think sand bed. it wont be as effective as a mudfilter or the filter like the one linked, but for the cost and simplicity it is well worth it.


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## Caligirl330

I understand both sides to this...On one hand you are trying to protect the fish you really want long term by getting a tester damsel but on the other hand you may stress out or possibly kill the cheaper "tester" fish..Just know that to most of us hobbyist *any* fish/creature no matter how expensive or inexpensive it is we still care for it's well being. I can tell you have good intentions so here is my advice to lessen the chance the tester damsel is going to be stressed (which still isn't a guarantee)... Be patient, after about 4 weeks of the tank cycling test the water and if the Nitrite, nitrate, ammonia is 0 and your PH is good wait *another* week to add the damsels. Even when your readings look good that doesn't mean your done cycling yet. A spike could still happen or there could not be enough beneficial bacteria built up, that is why it would be safer to wait at least another week after you think your cycled. 

Just another note...It was a pain to try and catch the damsel out of my tank and at first I never planned on catching him out (I even named him and everything lol) but I couldn't stand seeing him beat up my Maroon clown anymore. I had to borrow a fish trap and it took three days of trying to coax him in the trap which was a bit frustrating. I just wanted to let you know that is hard to catch those guys they are fast.


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## cro117

if you decide not to get a damsel you should still ask the store employee to catch you one then say, "on second thought i think i'll do fishless cycling." or if you decide you do want one, after it is already caught say, "hmm... could i get that one instead."


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## Reefing Madness

Well not for nothing but:
*Garabaldi Damsel
*Hypsypops rubicunda
*








**Sunshine Chromis
*Chromis Insolatus
*








Starcki Damselfish **(Australia)
*Chrysiptera starcki
*








* *Lemon Chromis
*Neoglyphidodon melas
[SIZE=-1]*







*[/SIZE]
*Australian Tasmanian Devil









There are some cool lookin Damsels out there.:thumbsup:*


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## Stingray81

I thought it would be okay to get em but since u said u can't catch them I don't think I wanna tear up my live rock just aafter I got it. Thanks for the pics reefmadness I think I might start out with some chromises if not that I still want to start your with some cheap hardy fish.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caligirl330

Those _are_ cool damsels Reefing Madness! 

Chromis may not be the easiest thing to catch when you get the live rock in but they might be easier to coax in a trap or net then a damsel though not too sure I have never owned chromis...


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## cro117

i shouldn't think that he would have to remove the chromis. they should stay relatively small, and i don't think they get to be too aggressive.


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## Caligirl330

Yeah in that case if you don't plan on removing them they will be fine and like cro117 said they are not aggressive, but there are some larger species... 

This is my long term thinking...if you get more then one chromis like 3 for example (which is what most LFS recommend because they are a schooling fish) they are going to create a lot of bio load when you add the clown pair and the _possible_ hawk fish or goby like you mentioned wanting. Just something to keep in mind...


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## Reefing Madness

cro117 said:


> i shouldn't think that he would have to remove the chromis. they should stay relatively small, and i don't think they get to be too aggressive.


They will actually chase each other around and kill each other. Yes, they stay relatively small, unless you get the Jumbo Chromis which get to around 3".


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## Stingray81

Ok I got my live rock 2day it's got a pretty good amount of life on it! Ima wait about 2-3 weeks and then start with some hardeys and inverts!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stan stl

*rena xp3*

can i use a rena xp3 on my 30 gallon salt water tank if it is all i have . or is that bad . is it going to be ok


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## Reefing Madness

stan stl said:


> can i use a rena xp3 on my 30 gallon salt water tank if it is all i have . or is that bad . is it going to be ok


 I would not use it, but thats just me. Nitrates factories is what they are. Just make sure you have plenty of Live Rock, thats all the filtration you need.


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## badxgillen

*hmm*

you can still use it as a source of flow and if you have only that.


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## Stingray81

ok im starting a new tank with corals and i've heard that you can use a standerd shop light like from lowes or walmart or something and use that to grow corals, is that true>? id rather use a shop light then have to buy a 300.00 light, you can understand.Whats the best kind of bulbs to put in the light?


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## Reefing Madness

Stingray81 said:


> ok im starting a new tank with corals and i've heard that you can use a standerd shop light like from lowes or walmart or something and use that to grow corals, is that true>? id rather use a shop light then have to buy a 300.00 light, you can understand.Whats the best kind of bulbs to put in the light?


Sorry, but a regular shop light is not going to be enough light for corals. That would be enough for a Fish ony tank. Softies would be fine with a Power Compact light fixture. Recommendations would be to use a T-5 HO fixture or Metal Halides. And, you should not have to pay $300 for a T-5 HO Light fixture. If you were, that would be one hell of a bright and big fixture. You won't even pay $300 for a Metal Halide fixture for a 20g Long tank.
http://cgi.ebay.com/36-Aquarium-T5-...008?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item588ebefbc0
http://cgi.ebay.com/24-Metal-Halide...847?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a8251ed7
There ya go, pick one, either one will enable you to keep anything in that tank.


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## badxgillen

*T-12*

well it really depends on the corals thet you want to keep and the depth of the tank.if its under 12 inches as far as from the light to the substrate and you get some 6500 kelvin bulbs and higher you grow some corals with T-8s.although you will be extremly restricted.i have several tanks running off of T-8s so it is doable.i would certainly recomend what reef mad has suggested and go with T-5s HO.this will open all the doors as far as corals go.


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## Stingray81

ok guys,my local fish store has a lion fish grow out tank they are babies now only about 1"-3" long,i asked him if it would be ok to start them in a 20 long tank and then upgrade as they start to get bigger,he said that would be fine although babies are really hard to take care of especially when it comes to feeding,now that my tank will be fully cycled friday i wanted to get your perspectives on it,if you have any experience on lion fish,what i would like to do is keep this 20 long going and upgrade hopefully before xmas to a 55-65 gallon nothing over a 75 gal, and skip the corals at first and do a fowlr with kind of a predator tank going!I've seen some vids on youtube and already decided my stocking and live rock formation.Let me know what you guys think as far as the lionfish.

btw it's a russells lion fish not a volitan,really cool fish!


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## Stingray81

*reefing madness*

thanks reefing madness for the links!! i never knew how cheap i could get them,with these lights will i be able to grow any corals i want or just soft?


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## Reefing Madness

Stingray81 said:


> thanks reefing madness for the links!! i never knew how cheap i could get them,with these lights will i be able to grow any corals i want or just soft?


 With those that I listed above, you can keep...... Anything ..... :thumbsup: Either of thoes lights puts you wll over 5watts per gallon, and for a Reef, thats plenty.


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## Stingray81

cool thanks ill add that later on to the bigger tank,did you see the post on the lion fish ? can you help me out?


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## Reefing Madness

Stingray81 said:


> cool thanks ill add that later on to the bigger tank,did you see the post on the lion fish ? can you help me out?


 My bad, I must have missed the post on the Lion Fish. And I went back and still could not find it??? Is it in this thread?? Sorry.


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## Stingray81

ok guys,my local fish store has a lion fish grow out tank they are babies now only about 1"-3" long,i asked him if it would be ok to start them in a 20 long tank and then upgrade as they start to get bigger,he said that would be fine although babies are really hard to take care of especially when it comes to feeding,now that my tank will be fully cycled friday i wanted to get your perspectives on it,if you have any experience on lion fish,what i would like to do is keep this 20 long going and upgrade hopefully before xmas to a 55-65 gallon nothing over a 75 gal, and skip the corals at first and do a fowlr with kind of a predator tank going!I've seen some vids on youtube and already decided my stocking and live rock formation.Let me know what you guys think as far as the lionfish.

btw it's a russells lion fish not a volitan,really cool fish!
[Reply]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Reefing Madness

Stingray81 said:


> ok guys,my local fish store has a lion fish grow out tank they are babies now only about 1"-3" long,i asked him if it would be ok to start them in a 20 long tank and then upgrade as they start to get bigger,he said that would be fine although babies are really hard to take care of especially when it comes to feeding,now that my tank will be fully cycled friday i wanted to get your perspectives on it,if you have any experience on lion fish,what i would like to do is keep this 20 long going and upgrade hopefully before xmas to a 55-65 gallon nothing over a 75 gal, and skip the corals at first and do a fowlr with kind of a predator tank going!I've seen some vids on youtube and already decided my stocking and live rock formation.Let me know what you guys think as far as the lionfish.
> 
> btw it's a russells lion fish not a volitan,really cool fish!
> [Reply]
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I would personally not do it. I've had one, they grow rather quickly, and 20g is really small even for a baby. Let the LFS get them to eat prepared foods first, you upgrade your tank and when they get to 3-4" then you get one.


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## Stingray81

So your saying wait to get one till i upgrade my tank and get one thats not a baby?the guy at the stOre said its difficult because you have to introduce them to lots of foods and see which one they like the best, and he said not to feed them goldfish i thought you can feed them live gold fish???
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Reefing Madness

Stingray81 said:


> So your saying wait to get one till i upgrade my tank and get one thats not a baby?the guy at the stOre said its difficult because you have to introduce them to lots of foods and see which one they like the best, and he said not to feed them goldfish i thought you can feed them live gold fish???
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They don't want you to get them stuck on them. I on the other hand had one for some time and fed him goldfish. HE GOT BIG. He never had trouble, but I had to get rid of my Agressive tank guys because they really cost slot to feed. I had Puffer, Lion, Spotted Grouper and a Snowflake Eel. They all ate gold fish, none of my fish had issues with them. They want you to feed them none live foods, they are actually better for the fish, but its hard to say whether they will take to the processed foods. Thats why I say let them rear the fish first, then its alot easier on you that way. And the size of the tank will make it easier on the fish.


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## Stingray81

ok,i got a 55 gallon tank about a week and a half ago it came with snails,hermits,clownfish x2,horseshoe crab:-D so last weekend i went into the lfs and got a baby volitan lionfish!! :-D:-D being a baby lionfish i know for a fact it won't harm my clowns so i set up a nano tank downstairs to put the clowns in:-D im pretty stoked about the fowlr 55 gallon my stocking plans are 1 lionfish,1 picasso trigger,yellow tang,convict tang,angel fish?? of some kind, or anything else i can find that i like

the only problem is i can't seem to get my lion to eat?? i just got him last saturday and the guy @ fish store said they will basicly starve themselves for a couple days then start eating but im a little worried its been about 3 days and i try everyday im feeding him sliver sides which i have to cut up for him to eat:| he won't even pay anttention to them any tips?? the silversides im giving him are HUGE their heads are bigger than his head! are they too big??


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## Reefing Madness

Stingray81 said:


> ok,i got a 55 gallon tank about a week and a half ago it came with snails,hermits,clownfish x2,horseshoe crab:-D so last weekend i went into the lfs and got a baby volitan lionfish!! :-D:-D being a baby lionfish i know for a fact it won't harm my clowns so i set up a nano tank downstairs to put the clowns in:-D im pretty stoked about the *fowlr 55 gallon my stocking plans are 1 lionfish,1 picasso trigger,yellow tang,convict tang,angel fish?? of some kind, or anything else i can find that i liek*
> 
> 
> :shock::shock::shock:* No way. Can't have those fish in that small of a tank.:shock::shock::shock: Lion Fish. And thats going to push it, wait til you see how big he gets.*
> 
> 
> the only problem is i can't seem to get my lion to eat?? i just got him last saturday and the guy @ fish store said they will basicly starve themselves for a couple days then start eating but im a little worried its been about 3 days and i try everyday im feeding him sliver sides which i have to cut up for him to eat:| he won't even pay anttention to them any tips?? the silversides im giving him are HUGE their heads are bigger than his head! are they too big??


Try the small live feeder fish, see if this just perks his interest. Next time you buy a fish though, tell the LFS guy to feed him right in front of you, so you know he is eating.


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## Reefing Madness

Saltwater Aquarium Fish for Marine Aquariums: Volitan Lionfish, Colored
Saltwater Aquarium Fish for Marine Aquariums: Humu Picasso Triggerfish
Aquarium Fish: Tropical Freshwater Fish and Saltwater Fish for Home Aquariums
Saltwater Aquarium Fish for Marine Aquariums: Convict Tang
All require a much bigger tank than a 55g.


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## Stingray81

I finally got him to eat! It took him a while haha i know lionfish get really big so you don't have to tell me there was a 1'3" lion at lfs! But i will probably end up upgrading sometime again lfs guy said i should get a tang of some kind he said yellow tangs fit in pretty good with lions?, but ya i will upgrade again when he gets about 7-8"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Stingray81

just curious,do i need to upgrade my lighting if i want to grow corals??? i have a current nova Extreme 2x T5HO im wantingto grow some polyps and some other stuff


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## Reefing Madness

Stingray81 said:


> just curious,do i need to upgrade my lighting if i want to grow corals??? i have a current nova Extreme 2x T5HO im wantingto grow some polyps and some other stuff


 Lighting- Yes on using a T5 HO fixture for keeping corals. Try and get one with 4 lamps in it.


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## badxgillen

you can grow a number of corals under T-8 and T5s its has much to do with spectrum and tank depth.although upgradeing wouldnt hurt i have several systems running on some of the least sought after lighting fixtures with the proper bulbs that contain numerous corals.


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## Stingray81

*sump talk*

ok guys, my tank is going great i got a coral beauty angel about a week ago,dewey the lionfish is doing great also i got him off the live food and back onto frozen krill & silversides.Hopefully i will be getting in a large shipment of corals from liveaquaria.com i got a really nice new light Amazon.com: 48" 260W PL Aquarium Light Fixture Reef Fish Tank: Kitchen & Dining , i think it is good,better than my old current usa extreme 

also wanted to ask you guys about sumps, currently i have 2 HOB double filters with carbon media, and a coralife superskimmer HOB.The main reason i want to run a sump is so i can hide all of my stuff and have a fuge i have a ten gallon tank i can use would that be good?


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## Reefing Madness

10 gallon sumps are rough to handle. They tend not to hold enough water, once you have an outage, the water lowers to a cetain level in the DT and also drains the lines to the sump, your Sump must be able to handle this water.


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## teddybear23

hello everyone, im sorry im typing this on here... but i really need help. 
im starting a new saltwater fish only tank that i have set up for 3 going in 4th day now, and my waters gone cloudy, i know its just form the bacteria bloom, ( sorry if i named it wrong ) , but my real problem is my friend gave me a pair of clownfish a few days ago, and i cant really say no because it was also a gift from his parents.. i know i cant put it in the tank right now so i have it at a fish store the my friend works at, when his boss found out he said that i could only keep it for about a week, and now my week is almost up, what should i do? i really would love to keep them because they mean alot to me, but i still dk what to do, please help help..
once again i am very sorry that i have this post on here, but i am new on this site n dk what to do 0.o......


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## teddybear23

just one more thing sorry ..... 
i also have a 55g tank with 11 baby red belly piranhas, ( i know its still too small, but im going on for a 85g in a few weeks )


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## Reefing Madness

teddybear23 said:


> hello everyone, im sorry im typing this on here... but i really need help.
> im starting a new saltwater fish only tank that i have set up for 3 going in 4th day now, and my waters gone cloudy, i know its just form the bacteria bloom, ( sorry if i named it wrong ) , but my real problem is my friend gave me a pair of clownfish a few days ago, and i cant really say no because it was also a gift from his parents.. i know i cant put it in the tank right now so i have it at a fish store the my friend works at, when his boss found out he said that i could only keep it for about a week, and now my week is almost up, what should i do? i really would love to keep them because they mean alot to me, but i still dk what to do, please help help..
> once again i am very sorry that i have this post on here, but i am new on this site n dk what to do 0.o......


 Get your buddy to give you a bunch of Live Rock from his tank, that will take your cycle down to a couple of days. The cloudy water is an Ammonia bloom.


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## Stingray81

my reef is looking sweet,only 1 problem i got 2 tangs at my lfs 2day the reason i got 2 is because they had a deal if you get 2 then its a cheaper price...long story.....anyways 1 is a blue hippo tang and 1 is a yellow tang and the guy told me they should get along together if both are same size and both are introduced at same time. well i brought em home acclimated for aprox 30 mins and put them in and they are "butting there tails together" it doesn't look like a major problem to me there both eating REALLY well as soon as i brought them home i fed the tank including them and they had no problem sucking down the flakes i gave them,im just a little worried because everytime they get close to each other they hit each other both are doing well its just that they don't get along,should i be worried about this or will they get over it? plz reply back asap!!!
thanks


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## Reefing Madness

Stingray81 said:


> my reef is looking sweet,only 1 problem i got 2 tangs at my lfs 2day the reason i got 2 is because they had a deal if you get 2 then its a cheaper price...long story.....anyways 1 is a blue hippo tang and 1 is a yellow tang and the guy told me they should get along together if both are same size and both are introduced at same time. well i brought em home acclimated for aprox 30 mins and put them in and they are "butting there tails together" it doesn't look like a major problem to me there both eating REALLY well as soon as i brought them home i fed the tank including them and they had no problem sucking down the flakes i gave them,im just a little worried because everytime they get close to each other they hit each other both are doing well its just that they don't get along,should i be worried about this or will they get over it? plz reply back asap!!!
> thanks


Refresh my memory again here, 55g tank?? And you put not 1 but 2 tangs in there???? :doh!:mg:


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## Stingray81

55 gallon reef 1 baby volitan lion,yellow tang,blue tang,coral beauty angelfish then we have a 20 gallon nano reef downstairs 2 clowns,fire fish goby,lawnmower blenny. i think both tanks are pretty balanced probably end up upgrading the 55 gallon to a 120 by xmas. do you have any advice on the tangs?? both of them are babys


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## Reefing Madness

Stingray81 said:


> 55 gallon reef 1 baby volitan lion,yellow tang,blue tang,coral beauty angelfish haha theirs no way i would put that in a 20 then we have a 20 gallon nano reef downstairs 2 clowns,fire fish goby,lawnmower blenny. i think both tanks are pretty balanced probably end up upgrading the 55 gallon to a 120 by xmas. do you have any advice on the tangs??


 I do, but you don't want to hear it. Take them back until your tank has been upgraded. As far as them fighting, they will until they get used to each other. Then they should be ok......but not in that tank, theres no room for them to bail out of hostility.


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## Stingray81

like i said there just 2-3 inches long max ive seen lots of tanks on youtube 55 gallon that have tangs,foxface,lions,etc.. i no ill have to either upgrade or take them back and get store credit in the near future,but i have about 50 lbs of rock in there giving them lots of hiding places and room to swim i think they will do alright for now as the tank is 4ft long and its not filled up with corals and rock or anything like that it defiantly doesn't look crowded to me they are never swimming up on the glass or anything showing signs of no swimming room


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## Reefing Madness

Stingray81 said:


> like i said there just 2-3 inches long max ive seen lots of tanks on youtube 55 gallon that have tangs,foxface,lions,etc.. i no ill have to either upgrade or take them back and get store credit in the near future,but i have about 50 lbs of rock in there giving them lots of hiding places and room to swim i think they will do alright for now as the tank is 4ft long and its not filled up with corals and rock or anything like that it defiantly doesn't look crowded to me they are never swimming up on the glass or anything showing signs of no swimming room


 Good luck.


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