# My German Ram Ciclid is sick...



## Quizcat (Jan 25, 2015)

Care to guess as to what is ailing my German Ram Ciclid?

I've been dealing with a sick German Ram Ciclid the last 48 hours or so. I hear they're kind of tricky to keep thriving. I set up a separate hospital tank, no plants, no substrate, just a piece of blue woven filter media in the filter, and I'm treating with Tetra Lifeguard tablets. 

I think the German Ram may have a bacterial infection of some kind. He keeps his tail all compressed, and he keeps his top fins compressed. I noticed a white spot or two, but it doesn't look like ICH to me. I first noticed his change in bahavior within about the last 48 hours, noticing that he stays close to the top of the tank, not seemingly gasping for air or anything. It's just out of character, since German Rams Like Staying along the bottom. So, my best guess is Bacterial Infection. 









I started treating with the Lifeguard tablets this morning around 10am, and the little white spot that is on the bottom back fin in the photo is gone already. So, I am hoping it's working. The Ciclid was also staying close to the top surface of the water, which is uncharacteristic of their behavior, which caused me to notice that something was wrong. He has since moved to rest just above the bottom now. So, hopefully he's improving. I have to treat for (5) days. Then, if he looks like he's recovering, I'll move him back into the planted tank. 

The other fish in the planted tank don't show any signs whatsoever of having any kinds of problems. So, I'm hoping that whatever it is, I have isolated it in the hospital tank. 

My only concern is that the hospital tank doesn't have a biofilter established. I just set it up today. But, I did treat the water with Seachem Stability before acclimating him to the new tank. The Tetra Lifeguard is supposed to KILL any and all bacteria, including a biofilter, so I guess it doesn't matter. But, Ciclids like a well established tank, pristine water, etc...so, not sure if the cure is worse than the disease where a German Ram is concerned.


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## Romad (Jun 28, 2009)

I'm not sure that I would rule out Ich just yet. You say it looked different from Ich tho?

External bacterial infections are typically patchy in appearance as opposed to spotty.


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## Quizcat (Jan 25, 2015)

Yes, there isn't a any salt or peppering like you would see with Ich, just one white spot, slightly larger than something like Ich, which was on the tail fin, and one only on the bottom fin, which is visible in the photo. But, after treating with Tetra Lifeguard, both spots seem to have disappeared within that last 24 hours, but in the case of the one bottom fin, the spot is now red in color, like the treatment is effecting whatever this is. 

I have actually lost a couple of Golden Ram Ciclids to something like this before. I had two Golden Rams that displayed the same symptoms, one of them actually developed a hole in it's tail after having a white spot there, and the tail fin actually split eventually. Both Golden Rams also had all the other same kinds of symptoms I described. I assumed at the time it was fin rot, a bacterial infection. But at the time, I just wasn't able to recognize a problem existed soon enough to begin treating the problem. 

In the case of the Golden Rams, I treated with Melafix, which my fish community seems to always react negatively too when I have used it in the past. On occassion, there have been times that completely healthy fish have died when using it. So, I've stopped using it and decided to try the Tetra Lifegaurd. I eventually lost both of the Golden Rams. Each of them develped the disease at different times, and not simultaneous to one another. 

I didn't have the experience to remove the Golden Rams from the main tank at the time, in order to quarantine them in a hospital tank when their problems occurred. But, I now have the Blue Ram isolated in the hospital tank, and the other Blue Ram is still in the main tank. The other Blue Ram displays no symptons, and looks perfectly healthy. And, all the other fish appear healthy too, no spotting, no behavioral changes, etc...



Romad said:


> I'm not sure that I would rule out Ich just yet. You say it looked different from Ich tho?
> 
> External bacterial infections are typically patchy in appearance as opposed to spotty.


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## Crazyfish (Feb 3, 2014)

The fish looks quite pale for a Blue Ram Cichlid... usually Bolivian Rams have that type of non-colouring.

It's hard to tell from the picture but its stomach looks caved in, has it been eating at all?

If you have more than one ram cichlid and they are both male, I suspect the dominant one is forcing the other to hide up at the surface. I have Angelfish and Ram cichlids and I find that they are best kept in mated pairs. 2 males in the same tank usually ends up with 1 of them being bullied to a corner of the tank. If a male Ram has a female partner, you will notice him suddenly become bold. 2 males and I guarantee the dominant one is colourful and the submissive one is pale.

I've got an issue with a couple of my Rams right now. They want to eat but when they try, they chew and chew then finally spit it out as if they are having trouble swallowing. I've dosed the tank with Prazipro since I suspect Gill Flukes and possibly internal parasites. I hope it does the trick. Rams are one of my favorite tropical fish but it's hard to find healthy ones and they do seem susceptible to parasites.


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## Quizcat (Jan 25, 2015)

Well, I've sexed the sick one as a male, and the other one as a female. Each displays the respective physical signs of being male and female, as well as some of the behavior signs of the two sexes. So, I am pretty sure as to which is which. The other sign is that the two of them don't fight, but I can't really see any pairing behavior between the two either. When the Golden Rams were alive, the male (now sick) would go after one of the Golden Rams that I believed was the male, and leave the one that I believed was a female alone. But, the Golden Rams are even more difficult to sex, and these two were about 1/4 of a size smaller than the Blue Rams, and may have been too young to accurately assign a sex to them.

The sick GBR male is not eating, and hasnt been eating for several days. Now, the one that I've sexed as the female that's in the regular tank, is eating well. I put about three small Ciclid pellets in the hospital tank in case it develops an appetite, but they are just sitting on the bottom so far, untouched. I put the Tetra Lifeguard daily dose in the tank again today. It looks a little better today...a very small bit of red is back in the eyes, but not much, and it seems just very slightly more active, perhaps not collapsing it's tail fiin and top fin quite as much. But, I think it's still in grave danger. It does a lot of hovering, hides under leaves of the articficial plants that are in the hospital tank. In the past, when it was well, it was much more social with respect to being out in the open. It is still hovering at the top layer of the tank more than usual, as well as ocassionally hovering on the bottom. 

I guess that it could be parasites...it is under a UV system in the regular tank, but not in the hospital tank. I am wondering if Tetra Lifeguard contains a treatment for parasites, or if I will need to treat seperately for that. I don't even really know if I can simultaneously treat with other methods without stressing him. Blue Rams are supposed to be pretty fragile fish, and I've heard they're hard to keep alive. This may be an example of why they have that reputation. 



Crazyfish said:


> The fish looks quite pale for a Blue Ram Cichlid... usually Bolivian Rams have that type of non-colouring.
> 
> It's hard to tell from the picture but its stomach looks caved in, has it been eating at all?
> 
> ...


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## Crazyfish (Feb 3, 2014)

The bacterial infection you are treating might be a secondary infection. The medicine you're using is broad and covers gill flukes as well but not sure about internal parasites. Hope your fish gets better but usually when they stop eating, it's bad news .


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## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

since your hospital tank is not cycled make sure you are checking your water parameters for ammonia and nitrite and doing water changes as needed. do you have a test kit? Hope your ram gets better.


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## Crazyfish (Feb 3, 2014)

How is your fish doing Quizcat? 

One of my two Rams had a strange reaction to the Prazipro and died. I'm not sure what the cause was because Prazi is said to be rather safe. I did notice my Ram shaking his head after dosing the tank and I thought maybe that was just him shaking off parasites. Came home today and he was on his side at the bottom gasping for air. The other fish in the tank are OK. Always a crap shoot with meds except in cases of ICK where the diagnosis and treatment is pretty obvious. This is the part of the hobby I hate.


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## Quizcat (Jan 25, 2015)

The problem is, the instruction with the Tetra Lifeguard says not to do any water changes for five days, so the treatment has an opportunity to kill the bacteria, assuming that's the source of the infection. So, I will know one way or another in five days, and this is day two. And, there isn't much of a bioload having one BRC in a ten gallon tank anyway...so. 

I did treat the water with Stability when I first set up the tank. Seachem Stability has allowed me to set up tanks without ever having to cycle them, and I have never lost fish introduced to a new, uncycled tank, provided I used the Stability to "stabalize" a new tank first. But, when setting up a tank, the directions with Stability require you to dose the tank once a day for 7 days, which stabilizes on the first day, then to establish the biofilter more quickly than what is generally required without Stability. It works really well for me. 

However, in this case, the treatment with Tetra Lifeguard kills all the bacteria in a tank, including any biological filter you may have established in any tank. So, using Tetra Lifeguard, and stability, except for initially acclimating the fish to the hospital tank, kills all the bacteria in the tank anyway, which results in there being no biofilter anyway (ie: the tank is just like it has never cycled). 



jeaninel said:


> since your hospital tank is not cycled make sure you are checking your water parameters for ammonia and nitrite and doing water changes as needed. do you have a test kit? Hope your ram gets better.


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## Quizcat (Jan 25, 2015)

*Day Two of Tetra Lifeguard...*

Oh, I'm very sorry to hear it! 

Well, mine seems to be getting just slightly better today, maybe. Tonight, I notice it's not compressing it's fins as much, and it seems a little less tired, just a little more active, just a little. And, he's staying more on the bottom than before, which I feel is a good sign, more in tune with the BRC's typical characteristic behavior, rather than floating just below the surface. But, he's definitely not out of the woods yet. Not eating yet either...:-?


You know, it occurred to me the other day, when I purchased the Tetra Lifeguard, that the cost to treat them is about 4 times more expensive than buying a new one. For me, it's not so much about the sentimentality, but the challenge of curing them, gaining the knowledge to recognize what they have, and properly treating them successfully. That's what motivataes me to even part with the money or expend the effort that's required to treat them. Some people have very expensive fish, and they experience not only perhaps a sentimental loss, but also a financial one as well. But, for me, the BRC isn't particularly expensive. 

Not to minimize anyone's sentimentalities when they may experience a loss, but I noticed yesterday at the LHS that I can get a new Bollivian Ram on sale for $4.00. I think the Tetra Lifegaurd cost me $13.00. :hmm:



Crazyfish said:


> How is your fish doing Quizcat?
> 
> One of my two Rams had a strange reaction to the Prazipro and died. I'm not sure what the cause was because Prazi is said to be rather safe. I did notice my Ram shaking his head after dosing the tank and I thought maybe that was just him shaking off parasites. Came home today and he was on his side at the bottom gasping for air. The other fish in the tank are OK. Always a crap shoot with meds except in cases of ICK where the diagnosis and treatment is pretty obvious. This is the part of the hobby I hate.


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## Quizcat (Jan 25, 2015)

I have pretty good luck with using Aquarium Salt on Ich, plus a rise in temps, depending on the community of fish. That is really the only method of treatment that I feel comfortable using on Ich at this stage. I've lost too many to Melafix for fin rot, and some other meds always have some kind of crazy side effects, like turning everything in the tank blue or something. The Aquarium Salt method is time consuming, taking about ten days to fully complete. But, it has worked well for me before. 



Crazyfish said:


> ...except in cases of ICK where the diagnosis and treatment is pretty obvious.


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## Crazyfish (Feb 3, 2014)

Quizcat said:


> Not to minimize anyone's sentimentalities when they may experience a loss, but I noticed yesterday at the LHS that I can get a new Bollivian Ram on sale for $4.00. I think the Tetra Lifegaurd cost me $13.00. :hmm:


A new Blue or Bolivian Ram if I can find them around here costs me 14.99 but I hear you.... hospital tank, meds, all the hassle and time.... price wise, it's cheaper to just get a new fish. But for some reason, I get joy out of nursing a sick fish back to health.


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## Quizcat (Jan 25, 2015)

Yeah, me too...

Yeah, the local Petsmart had the Bolivian Rams on sale for $4.00. But, when they put them on sale, I always am suspicious that they know something I don't about the fishes in question. 

Here is a photo of the Sicky, day 3:









I think he's getting a little bit better. My main observation is that previously, he had his fins all compressed. Now, notice how the top fin is extended, and even though the tail fin is a little mangled, a result of the disease I belive, it's not compressed. He just looks less stressed to me. 

I've been treating with Tetra Lifeguard, and also dosing Aquarium Salt. The first day, I dosed with only 2 teaspoons of Aquarium Salt on day #1 and day #2, then today, I dosed Aquarium Salt in the AM, 2 teaspoons, and another 5 teaspoons this afternoon. This afternoon, about an hour after I dosed the five teaspoons, he looks better than he has looked so far. So...

Can anyone advise the proper dosage of aquarium salt for a 10 gallon tank? I've read stuff online that has dosages all over the place. This afternoon, I dosed 5 teaspoons, and I don't want to overdose the little fella. 

One limitation I currently have is that the hospital tank only has a fixed temperature heater (78 degrees F). I want to get one that I can adjust temperature, but haven't had the chance to upgrade yet. 




Crazyfish said:


> ...for some reason, I get joy out of nursing a sick fish back to health.


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