# Issues with Diseases, Stocking, Water and More. - Expert Help Needed.



## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

Here are the current tanks that we will be dealing with throughout this thread:


*29 Gallon Freshwater Tank *- Fully Planted - Hard Water needs to be Soft Water
12 Neon Tetras - 1 Cardinal Tetra (4 Neons and 1 Cardinal were added this yesterday)
4 Bronze Cory
1 Male Lyretail Sailfin Molly
1 Female Kribensis Cichlid
1 Male Bristlenose Pleco

*20 Gallon Freshwater Tank* - Fully Planted - Hard Water
8 Red Wag Platy Fry
3 Bolivian Rams (Added exactly 3 weeks ago)
1 Female Black Molly
1 Male Bristlenose Pleco

*10 Gallon Freshwater Tank *- Fully Planted - Hard Water - Possible QT Tank
10-15 Red Wag Platy Fry - Too hard to count
1 Male Dwarf Gourami

1.75 Gallon Quarantine Tank - No Filter, No Heater, Not Cycled.

Here are my...astonishing water parameters:

*pH: * 7.5 (High and Low)
*gH: * 18dGH (Hard Water)
*Nitrate as N03 out of Tap:* 
33.8ppm (Lab Tested - Nitrate Ion Selective Electrode)
20ppm (LaMotte Kit)
40ppm - 60ppm (API Master Test Kit)
*Nitrate as N03-N out of Tap:* 
7.68ppm (Lab Tested - Nitrate Ion Selective Electrode)

Requested Water Plant results for Tap Water - Water Plants report 5ppm out of source water. River water also measure 5ppm from the lab who tested my water.

As you can see the Nitrate is an issue. I still have not done anything about changing the water yet because of the other issues I am currently dealing with. Once all my fish are healthy I will slowly start to change the water parameters, so as not to shock them. The plan is to add 25% R.O. water with every water change in the two bigger tanks. R.O. water here isn't to expensive, but the LFS doesn't sell it. WalMart only sells drinkable R.O. water which I can buy at a decent price. Any more advice on this would be appreciated. I don't want to spend a lot of money and am looking for the cheapest method to solve this problem.

*Here are the other more pressing issues.*

*29 Gallon*

The Male Molly in the 29 has this abnormal growth on his right side. It appears to be black and underneath the scales. Here is a video where you can see what I am talking about. You can see it at about 0:24 into the video, it was taken about a week ago.






The snails I speak about in those videos have since been active and moving fine. The dead ones have been eaten by the Kribensis, she is ruthless.

The tank has previously been treated with Levamisole HCl and Salts for Camallanus. This tank has also been and is *currently being treated* with API General Cure which contains the following chemicals: Metronidazole and Praziquantel.

What is that growth and how can I treat it. These are the medications I currently have available:


Metronidazole
Praziquantel
Minocycline
Tetracycline Hydrochloride
Stabalized Chlorine Oxides
Levamisole Hydrochloride
Salt

I was suggested to use the Tetracycline Hydrochloride along with the Minocycline. Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions? When to use it, considering I am currently treating with the Metronidazole and Praziquantel, 48 hours left of treatment.

*20 Gallon*

The Bolivian Rams when I got them didn't look too healthy, since then two have started eating and the third is still palish and not eating as well. He is also still hiding.

Today I noticed the still sickly Bolivian Ram pooping stringy white poop.

This tank has been treated with Metronidazole and Praziquantel about one week ago. Should I try another treatment or should I quarantine this fish and do a treatment on that one fish? Should I treat the entire tank? How long should I wait?

Also, if I quarantine the Bolivian Ram, I would have to move everything out of the 10 gallon tank. The 1.75 is not ready unless I want to do daily water changes, which I don't mind. Any suggestions?

If I move the 10 or so platy fry into the 20 gallon and the gourami into the 29 to free up the 10 gallon tank for quarantine, would the 10 fry over load the bio load in that tank? I will be removing a bolivian ram when I do so.

If I do this, the gourami would be in the same tank as the kribensis...which is not really ideal.

Here is a video of when I first got them 3 weeks ago just for comparison, the one that is now pale is more pale than they look in this video:






Here is a video of the Bolivian Rams about a week ago so you can see them. The third one that is pale is hiding and is not shown in this video:






I originally treated the 20 gallon tank with the API General Cure because the Rams had that sunken stomach. I wanted to make sure they were safe. Two have made it through fine and are getting fatter.

I have already started going 10% R.O. water changes in the 20 gallon where the Rams are just to comfort them, but I do not yet have a gH and kH test kit so I can't take a reading yet. I will need to purchase one soon so I can keep track of where my water parameters are in there.

I think I covered everything but if I missed anything please ask. The only tank I have that I didn't mention is my betta 5 gallon tank but that tank is not going to be messed with. Its finished and doing great. I listed the 29, 20, 10 and the 1.75 gallon tanks as references to see what I am working with and the possibilities of moving the stock and everything.

Any help and all advice is appreciated.


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Oh, Termie. . . I'm so sorry you're having such troubles. I REALLY hope someone out there will be able to help out. . .


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

AbbeysDad has high nitrates in his tap water and posted his remedy some time back; PM him and he should have some advice on this issue.

The disease issues I will not guess at. Without knowing fairly exactly what the issue is, using medications can make things worse. If no one comes along on this issue, PM bettababy.

Byron.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Nothing to do with fish but that high nitrate isn't even safe for people to drink, especially young children. :| This is city water? Gosh, shocking.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Byron said:


> If no one comes along on this issue, PM bettababy.
> Byron.


I have already sent a PM to Bettababy on Termie's behalf, and am really hoping that she finds a moment to stop on here and give some advice. He could really use it. . .



Olympia said:


> Nothing to do with fish but that high nitrate isn't even safe for people to drink, especially young children. :| This is city water? Gosh, shocking.


It _IS_ shocking, isn't it? Terrible. If you check one of Termie's last threads, he goes into more detail about the issues with his tap water. It's really a terrible situation, he has people checking into it with more sophisticated tests than API, but. . . well, I don' t know what they'll really be able to do about it, aside from get more accurate results. What a mess.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Yep, horrible. Just like how nitrate (and nitrite/ammonia) make it hard for fish to transport oxygen in their blood, the same for people.. Young babies are really vulnerable to nitrate, it's called blue baby syndrome. 

Anyways, a complaint should be made to the city, and any other health authorities you have in the states. If it's well water then you have to deal with it yourself, but the city should take better care of it's water supply.
I can only imagine it's from manure/mine runoff into the water, and there are ways to filter it out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

Oh my goodness. It sounds like you've got some serious issues with your water. I hope you can get it fixed.

I think I have an answer for what is growing on your male molly. It looks like lymphocystis (sometimes called cauliflower disease), a viral infection that is typically nonfatal. I had a betta that came down with this a few months ago. Since it's very difficult to the see the image on the video, I encourage you to look up images of fish with lympho infections and compare that to your fish.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

Byron said:


> AbbeysDad has high nitrates in his tap water and posted his remedy some time back; PM him and he should have some advice on this issue.
> 
> The disease issues I will not guess at. Without knowing fairly exactly what the issue is, using medications can make things worse. If no one comes along on this issue, PM bettababy.
> 
> Byron.


Thanks Byron, Yes I have read through his thread and ran the method I plan to do by him. The point is I have to spend constant money in order to keep the nitrates down--which really sucks...

Looking into seeing how much a home system is.



Olympia said:


> Nothing to do with fish but that high nitrate isn't even safe for people to drink, especially young children. :| This is city water? Gosh, shocking.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes this is City Tap Water. I am in the process of writing a letter/article on the issue. I will post it on here soon which will address many Nitrate issues, its health concerns and what you can do about it.

I'm coordinating with a few local organizations in order to address the problem to the community.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

thekoimaiden said:


> Oh my goodness. It sounds like you've got some serious issues with your water. I hope you can get it fixed.
> 
> I think I have an answer for what is growing on your male molly. It looks like lymphocystis (sometimes called cauliflower disease), a viral infection that is typically nonfatal. I had a betta that came down with this a few months ago. Since it's very difficult to the see the image on the video, I encourage you to look up images of fish with lympho infections and compare that to your fish.


Out of all the pictures I found only one possibly looked like what he has. It is possible but those look really bad. He did get Dropsy as a result of this I think. Someone advised that this parasite/bacteria w/e it is will keep doing this until either the fish dies or it dies.

I think that this "growth" looks something like this (I drew this on a sticky note):










If you are right, wouldn't it do what I described and give the fish Dropsy every so often? And if so, would the Tetracycline Hydrochloride take care of it?


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

Most of the images I found of lympho infections were pretty bad. It is possible that he could have a parasite infection, but you are treating the tank with prazi (a strong anti-parasitic) and you should have seen some reduction. Attached is an image of my betta's lympho infection as a comparison. It wasn't a bad case

Lympho won't outright kill the fish. It will weaken the fish and allow other opportunistic infections like fungus or parasites to creep in. As dropsy is thought to be a bacterial infection, then yes, your fish could come down with dropsy every once in a while. As for a cure for dropsy, I'm not too sure. I've never dealt with it, and it seems like every aquarist has their own cure for it. If something has worked for you before, try it again.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

thekoimaiden said:


> Most of the images I found of lympho infections were pretty bad. It is possible that he could have a parasite infection, but you are treating the tank with prazi (a strong anti-parasitic) and you should have seen some reduction. Attached is an image of my betta's lympho infection as a comparison. It wasn't a bad case
> 
> Lympho won't outright kill the fish. It will weaken the fish and allow other opportunistic infections like fungus or parasites to creep in. As dropsy is thought to be a bacterial infection, then yes, your fish could come down with dropsy every once in a while. As for a cure for dropsy, I'm not too sure. I've never dealt with it, and it seems like every aquarist has their own cure for it. If something has worked for you before, try it again.


The Dropsy would come as a result of this disease. I can take this fish and quarantine him to treat with the Tetracycline Hydrochloride which is for bacterial infections. I already treated for parasites and it didn't work. 

I am also really concerned about one of my Bolivian Rams. Two of them have sectioned off the 20 gallon tank each side for themselves. The third gets this little back end corner of nothing and is hiding and I saw stringy white poop coming out the past two days while the treatment has been done for a few days before that. He is still pale in color but i have seen him nibble and has a little orange in his belly. Any suggestions on what to do about this fish?

I don't really want to get a quarantine tank but do you think a 1.75 gallon could serve a quarantine tank for either of these fish for the duration of a treatment. I think the Bolivian Rams is more severe and life threatening, therefore it should be taken care of first. The mollies he can live with for a bit longer so I want to focus on the Ram.

Thanks everyone for the help so far. Koi, thanks for the advice, I will most likely end up treating for what you suggested as it seems to be the most likely of things to be so far.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

On the Bolivian Ram issue; a 20g is very small quarters for more than a pair (male/female) or a single Bolivian. Have you seen any sign of pushing, chasing, etc. by either of the other rams toward this one?

I have a male Bolivian in my 5-foot 115g tank. I managed to find a female and added it. He seemed to accept her, and they went through 4 spawnings, then he decided he no longer wanted her around and killed her simply by always going after her. Rams are territorial, and a male will always take the entire tank as "his" and they only bond with the female they choose.

Byron.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

Byron said:


> On the Bolivian Ram issue; a 20g is very small quarters for more than a pair (male/female) or a single Bolivian. Have you seen any sign of pushing, chasing, etc. by either of the other rams toward this one?


Yes I have noticed the two main healthy ones created a border where the wood is. They will have stand offs/pushing ramming battles there. Both of them will chase the third one away to the back of the tank. The plan is to move these fish into the 29, I just wanted to treat them separately from all my other fish in case they were sick. 

I can move them into the 29 right now if necessary--more on this below.



Byron said:


> I have a male Bolivian in my 5-foot 115g tank. I managed to find a female and added it. He seemed to accept her, and they went through 4 spawnings, then he decided he no longer wanted her around and killed her simply by always going after her. Rams are territorial, and a male will always take the entire tank as "his" and they only bond with the female they choose.
> 
> Byron.


I will have to sex all three of my Rams. They may all three be male, which I think they are, although I thought I chose at least one female. 

This was the main reason I listed all of the tanks available to move fish into.

*29 Gallon Community Tank that will be turned into a soft water tank slowly. Neons and Cories* The male molly in here will be moved to the 20 gallon tank. 

*20 Gallon Community Tank that will stay hard water with Platys and Mollies. *

*10 Gallon Community Tank - Unknown Outcome*

Fish that need to be decided on where to put:

1 Female Kribensis Cichlid
1 Male Dwarf Gourami
3 Male(possible) Bolivian Rams

I'm quite sure with the barriers, plants and everything in the 29 I can put in a weird combination in there that would not normally work. Thoughts?

Thanks for the help.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Staying on the Bolivian issue, you do not have any tanks listed that are sufficient in area for 3 Bolivians, or two males.

If you read our profile it mentions that in its habitat this fish occurs in isolation, only pairing up to spawn. Placed in the small confines of any tank there will be trouble. I would almost guarantee the "sickness" of the one Bolivian is solely due to the aggressin from the other two. If you separate the "sick" one i would expect it to recover. If not, I can all but assure you it will be dead soon.

If two of the three are together, they are likely male/female. Two female might tolerate each other, but they wouldn't be defending a territory.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

Byron said:


> Staying on the Bolivian issue, you do not have any tanks listed that are sufficient in area for 3 Bolivians, or two males.
> 
> If you read our profile it mentions that in its habitat this fish occurs in isolation, only pairing up to spawn. Placed in the small confines of any tank there will be trouble. I would almost guarantee the "sickness" of the one Bolivian is solely due to the aggressin from the other two. If you separate the "sick" one i would expect it to recover. If not, I can all but assure you it will be dead soon.
> 
> If two of the three are together, they are likely male/female. Two female might tolerate each other, but they wouldn't be defending a territory.


I will take a picture of the three Rams to help identify the sex, although I do think all three are male. My original plan was to put the pair in the 29 and one in the 20, I may have to settle for this until I either set up another tank of can figure something else out. That is the reason I brought up the entire stocking issue.

For now, I can move the sick Ram into a quarantine tank when I get home today to assure his health. I just have to decide where to quarantine him.

My other concern once I Quarantine the Ram is that I will most likely end up with some kind of incompatibility unless I want to get rid of fish.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

I'm thinking about Quarantining the Bolivian Ram in the 10 Gallon tank with the Gourami. Thoughts?

I could move the gourami into the 20 gallon to keep the Ram in the 10 by himself.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

I would not have a cichlid and gourami together- especially in a 10 gallon.
I'd move the gourami (is there a reason it's by itself?)
Since it's just QT 10 gallons should be fine for him for now.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

Olympia said:


> I would not have a cichlid and gourami together- especially in a 10 gallon.
> I'd move the gourami (is there a reason it's by itself?)
> Since it's just QT 10 gallons should be fine for him for now.


The gourami is being Quarantined. 3 weeks in right now.

The 10 gallon is my quarantine / hostpital / fry tank.

yeah the plan was the keep the gourami in the 10 gallon for good BUT I think the gourami would work better with the Rams than the Kribensis would.

That Kribensis is quite ferocious, but she stays away from the molly, cories and the school of tetras. I've only ever seen her chase all of them away while eating AND go after the old Bolivian Ram i had (burt) who died from Camallaus. I was going to keep her in the 20 gallon in the end with the mollies and platys, the only issue now being that all three rams can't go in the 29. Therefore I think I will have to keep 2 rams in the 29 (even though they wont be super happy about it), 1 ram in the 20, krib in the 10. The question is where does the gourami go? OR if I should keep 3 rams in the 29 and then everything is fine....

That is the stocking issue. Chesh suggested using a divider on the 10 gallon for now. Keeping the ram and gourami separated through the divider....

Tough spot...


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## rhymon78 (Mar 17, 2012)

Holly molly things are complicated in the Termato fishery!! what a NIGHTMARE, think its time to stop adding to the collection, until things get less complicated. I hope you find some kind of agreeable resolution for everyone concerned. Would suck to loose another Ram. You know my feelings on Kribs, just looking at one now gives me acid reflux! 

Not wanting to hijack your thread, as things are compacted enough as it is.... but,

I think I am possibly on the brink of some kind of pooping disaster..

Noticed my female honey gourami with long stringy poop today, first inch or so was normal then it went all thin and fine right up to the body. seen her do normal poops since, but seen the stringy stuff a couple times. 

Also today noticed nearly all of my danios with poop hanging, which I have NEVER seen, let alone all at the same time, at least wasn't stringy though..

and then 2 of my platys seemed to have stringy poop too, although thats not unusual for them, couldn't really tell if it was the really thin stuff or not. 

the reason I worry, I added 3 oto's at the weekend, I got them from my trusted LFS and didn't QT them, I never do as I don't have a QT tank.. I did notice at the LFS that in the platy tank there was one with long wispy white stringy poop, but the tank was around 50 tanks the other direction from where the oto tank was... not sure if the tanks are all connected or not? the oto's seem fine, no pooping issues, although I know fish can carry parasites etc. 

What do you think I should do? just keep an eye on the pooping, see what happens? medicate with something? it would have to be the whole tank, and I got some cory's which I believe don't like meds eh?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

rhymon78 said:


> Holly molly things are complicated in the Termato fishery!! what a NIGHTMARE, think its time to stop adding to the collection, until things get less complicated. I hope you find some kind of agreeable resolution for everyone concerned. Would suck to loose another Ram. You know my feelings on Kribs, just looking at one now gives me acid reflux!
> 
> Not wanting to hijack your thread, as things are compacted enough as it is.... but,
> 
> ...


Feed them some shelled peas. Fresh or frozen, just squeeze the peas out of their outer covering so you are just feeding the mush.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

Yea, I am not adding any fish any more. I will need to get rid of some of the Platy fry I have, which is just taking them to the LFS. 

Byron's suggestion is mainly for constipation and it works quite well. Is the poop white and stringy or normal colored?

If its white and stringy you could just use the API General Cure and treat the tank, it gets parasites and anything like that. Usually covers the basis of these types of infections. If that doesn't work it will most likely be a bacteria infection.

-----

I am thinking of the Kribensis, Mollies and Platys in the 20 gallon for long term. That way the compatibility with her wont be an issue AND she can take care of my overwhelming snail issue in that tank. Its' overloaded with Ramshorn and Bladder snails.

Gourami will most likely end up in the 10 gallon long term.

I'm really thinking that all 3 rams will end up going into the 29 unless I want to try a gourami/Cichlid mix....which I don't want to do. I would rather see what happens with the 3 Rams in the 29. I will be adding more spacial breakers and plants to that tank. It will have less open swimming area near the bottom so they can relax more.

Within the year I am hoping to start up a main tank that is bigger than my 29...but I need time and money for that so its longer term. I will need a shorter term solution until that happens.

I know I shouldn't keep the three together Byron, but I put myself in the situation by not sexing the rams properly so now I have to deal with it. I may have to do something else though....if they don't get along. I will get the pictures up to confirm the sexes of the rams though. If I have a pair, then it will make me feel better.


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## rhymon78 (Mar 17, 2012)

Byron said:


> Feed them some shelled peas. Fresh or frozen, just squeeze the peas out of their outer covering so you are just feeding the mush.


Really, what does that do? 

just normal peas? I have frozen peas, petit pois type things. just defrost them and squeeze the insides out into the tank? how much do you reckon for a 29g heavily stocked?

What do you think could be the problem?

cheers for the advice Byron.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

rhymon78 said:


> Really, what does that do?
> 
> just normal peas? I have frozen peas, petit pois type things. just defrost them and squeeze the insides out into the tank? how much do you reckon for a 29g heavily stocked?
> 
> ...


No idea on the issue, I do not second guess health problems. The reason I suggest the peas is because i have heard many members here recommend peas for intenstinal/digestive issues. It helps to clean out the tract. Can't hurt. But of course, it this is a protozoan or bacteria, something else may have to be used to target that.


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## rhymon78 (Mar 17, 2012)

Just wanted to add, I changed their food at the weekend. I was feeding a brand called aquarian flakes and have switched to tetra pro colour crisps, I asked at this high end LFS I go to every once in a while to get my plants (have to travel to get there, rather than my usual one on my doorstep) if they could recommend a high end flaked food, with higher grade ingredients and the guy, who is super helpful suggested this tetra pro stuff, he feeds it at home and they use it on all the tanks in the shop too. 

It could be the change of food maybe? seems coincidental that this should happen around the same time?


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## rhymon78 (Mar 17, 2012)

Termato said:


> Yea, I am not adding any fish any more. I will need to get rid of some of the Platy fry I have, which is just taking them to the LFS.
> 
> Byron's suggestion is mainly for constipation and it works quite well. Is the poop white and stringy or normal colored?
> 
> ...


I think a big main tank for you is the way to go Termato! and an RO system hooked up to your tap, or a tap just for that instead of hooked to your kitchen sink. It doesn't cost all that much to buy one, and I know its a lot of wasted water, but if your only using it once a week for x amount of gallons it wouldn't be too much waste. its not like your gonna have a 240 gallon reef set up... oh how dreamy that wold be!

anyhoo, your pretty screwed with the ram situ right now, I guess... the chances of them 3 getting on in a small tank is pretty unlikely like byron said, if one dies, it'll be sad but problem solved I guess. Got any fishy friends that you could give him to? or take it back to be rehoused at the LFS maybe? or is it petsmart? in which case don't they will likely throw it in the trash. 

Again the Krib rears its evil head, what an incompatibility fly in the ointment, if it wasn't for that things might be a bit smoother. Tough spot, sucks when things get like this.


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

rhymon78 said:


> Really, what does that do?
> 
> just normal peas? I have frozen peas, petit pois type things. just defrost them and squeeze the insides out into the tank? how much do you reckon for a 29g heavily stocked?
> 
> ...


Peas are also good because the produce a recognizable color poop. Fish poop should always be the same color as the food. Any frozen peas will work. Just make sure they aren't canned. Those peas have waaay to much salt in them. 

I'm not really sure how many you would need. Try 6-7 and see how fast they are eaten up.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

*Update*

Here is what I have done since arriving home today.


I have moved the Gourami into the 29 gallon tank where he seems to be adapting. He had a face off with the Kribensis who is just as scared of him as he is of her. I am not worried about either of them because both of them seem to be holding their ground. I am going to keep an eye on them to make sure nothing goes wrong. I have noticed the Gourami chasing the Kribensis recently. He wont follow her across the entire tank though, just establishing territory.

I moved the Male Sailfin Lyretail molly into a 1.75 QT tank where I am treating him with Tetracycline for internal bacterial infection. The tank is not heater or filtered, it has a air pump running on it. I may go get a small filter for the tank, the heater I am not worried because the house stays at a good enough temperature.

I moved the sick Bolivian Ram into the 10 gallon tank where he is not residing by himself in the tank. He is hiding and I will keep an eye on him. The other two in the 20 are doing great and eating fine. They are getting along well too. 

What should I treat the Bolivian Ram with. General Cure again? I only notice white stringy poop and he is a little pale.

Pictures and a video coming soon of the Rams for sexing.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

The first attached image is of the Alpha Ram. He is the one who has taken over the front of the tank. He chases the other Ram out of his territory. The other one is not as defensive as he is.

Here is also a link to a video of the two Rams behaviors. They did get into a tangle and a few Ram interlocks. Nothing too aggressive yet, just a lot of face offs.






The third Ram is very similar to the second Ram. The first one has the different shaped head. The third ones anus/vent area is also swollen so it is harder to tell the gender. He is hiding so I can't get a good picture.

I will attempt to get better pictures later.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I don't know what "General Cure' is but be careful adding medications. Unless one is certain of the problem and can target it with a medication that is effective and can be tolerated by the particular fish, it can do more harm.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

Byron said:


> I don't know what "General Cure' is but be careful adding medications. Unless one is certain of the problem and can target it with a medication that is effective and can be tolerated by the particular fish, it can do more harm.


General cure is:

250mg Metronidazole
75mg Praziquantel

per 10 gallon dosing.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Termato said:


> General cure is:
> 
> 250mg Metronidazole
> 75mg Praziquantel
> ...


And why are you using this? Sorry, can't remember.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

Byron said:


> And why are you using this? Sorry, can't remember.


It treats external and internal parasites. I used it on the Rams as a general treatment when I got them. They had caved in bellies and weren't eating. Chesh has similar issues and it worked for her. It worked for two of my Rams.

This one looks to have a swollen vent region right now. I will wait until tomorrow to see how he is doing.


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## LyzzaRyzz (Dec 18, 2011)

Oh jeez! Lots of issues! 
Ive always heard that AQ salt should always be used first, medications second. Im always hesitant to medicate.

I think you should really look into rehoming that lone ram..it sounds like you just dont have the room for him!


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

LyzzaRyzz said:


> Oh jeez! Lots of issues!
> Ive always heard that AQ salt should always be used first, medications second. Im always hesitant to medicate.
> 
> I think you should really look into rehoming that lone ram..it sounds like you just dont have the room for him!


I had previously treated all the tanks with API Salt, only a half dose of what they recommended because I didn't want to over do it. I am hesitant to medicate too especially because of the amount of plants I have in the tanks.

I have also started doing 10% R.O. water with every water change in the 20 and 29 gallon tank. I also top off the water with only R.O. water. I am going to purchase a container that is cheaper to refill so I can do 20-25% R.O. water. I also need to get a gH and kH test strip to keep watch on that.

I think you may be right on that. If two of the Rams can get along in the 29, I can keep the Kribensis alone in the 20, and the Gourami in the 10 by himself as well. The two Rams in the 29 would constantly be guarding their territory but that tanks has many more hiding areas and line of sight breakers. I am also planning to add more plants to it as well.

All of the mollies and platys that I keep will be in the 20 gallon tank with the kribensis.

I will keep one or two platys with the gourami in the 10? 

thoughts?


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

It sounds like you're heading in the right direction. . . HOORAY for a plan! 

I don't know anything about Kribs, or how well they or Gourami would do with the platy. Hopefully someone can give some advice on this one - and hopefully it will all work out in the end! I guess it's *kind of* a good thing that the snake skipped town. Even though that sucks, at least you have another open tank!

What level is your nitrate reading now that you've been using the RO water - is it coming down to a reasonable number? I'm REALLY curious to know what your GH and KH readings are. The kits are sold on Amazon by API for only like $7ish. . . 

You know. . . you never said. . . whatcha gonna do with that lonely little beat up ram? I know a chick who is obsessed with Bolivians and would take GREAT care of him! *bats lashes* She has an extra tank that she can toss him into if he should be picked on, and soft water with low nitrates, and plants. . . and LOVE! *giggle*


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Oh! I also wanted to add (and maybe Byron could clarify this for both of us) that I've had to dose my tank with aquarium salt before, and looked into it. The dose that is recommended on the carton isn't a high enough salinity to disturb *most* aquarium plants. . . we have some of the same plants in our tanks, and some of THOSE can even survive in brackish conditions. Either way, my plants all came through just fine at the recommended dosage, and the dosage on the package IS a lowish dose compared to many recommendations I've seen. I don't know how much good cutting it in half would do for your tank. . . curious, though!

You know I'm new at this, and OBVIOUSLY not the most trustworthy of sources, so do your own research, lol! hopefully you won't ever have to use it again, but if you ever should - I just wanted to let you know that I had no problems! 

And. . . I KNOW you love your plants. I understand. . . but you HAVE to put the fishies first. *nods* Would you rather have healthy fish with no plants, or beautiful plants with dead fish? Both, when possible, of course, but if you HAD to choose? Just sayin'

*hugs*


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I will never use aquarium salt in my tanks even as a treatment. To be effective for most parasitic or protozoan issues, it has to be much stronger than what is good for plants or many (if not most) fish. There are usually better medications that will be more effective with less side effects. Salt has quite a negative impact on many fish, as my article on salt points out--and this is scientific fact, not my opinion.;-)
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-articles/salt-freshwater-aquarium-97842/


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

Chesherca said:


> It sounds like you're heading in the right direction. . . HOORAY for a plan!
> 
> I don't know anything about Kribs, or how well they or Gourami would do with the platy. Hopefully someone can give some advice on this one - and hopefully it will all work out in the end! I guess it's *kind of* a good thing that the snake skipped town. Even though that sucks, at least you have another open tank!
> 
> ...


He may have camallanus....maybe...if not then that would be a great idea. We will see.


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Termato said:


> He may have camallanus....maybe...if not then that would be a great idea. We will see.


Oh no. . . no no no!  Poor little thing. Why do you think so?

Byron - thanks for clarifying that! I'll read the article. :-D


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

Chesherca said:


> Oh no. . . no no no!  Poor little thing. Why do you think so?
> 
> Byron - thanks for clarifying that! I'll read the article. :-D


I can see red inside of their vents. I am not going to do anything just yet because I can't be certain. I am going to keep an eye on all of them and make sure their healthy. 

I think another week of quarantine for the 2 Rams in the 20 should be enough until I can move them into the 29? 

Then I can move the Kribensis into the 20 and the Gourami back into the 10. The quarantined Ram at that point would either go into the 4 gallon QT bucket OR to the new home Chesh can provide...

Thoughts?


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

Would just like to point out that tap water is drinking-water safe. 33ppm nitrate(NO3) is below the maximum allowed levels of 44ppm of nitrate. Above 44ppm nitrate is where you have risks of blue-baby syndrome and such. Most water companies monitor nitrate as nitrate-nitrogen, which is different levels from the regular nitrate test. Nitrate-nitrogen test reports about 4.4 times lower then a regular nitrate test since they are testing slightly different things. Thus max nitrate-nitrogen levels in tap water are often said to be 10ppm, but this is not what a standard nitrate test test for. 

I personally would not worry about your tap nitrate plants should control that from rising too much. The hardness is certainly an issue for the rams though.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

Mikaila31 said:


> Would just like to point out that tap water is drinking-water safe. 33ppm nitrate(NO3) is below the maximum allowed levels of 44ppm of nitrate. Above 44ppm nitrate is where you have risks of blue-baby syndrome and such. Most water companies monitor nitrate as nitrate-nitrogen, which is different levels from the regular nitrate test. Nitrate-nitrogen test reports about 4.4 times lower then a regular nitrate test since they are testing slightly different things. Thus max nitrate-nitrogen levels in tap water are often said to be 10ppm, but this is not what a standard nitrate test test for.
> 
> I personally would not worry about your tap nitrate plants should control that from rising too much. The hardness is certainly an issue for the rams though.


Thanks Mika,

Yea I am aware of the legal limit for Nitrate. They go into in both the documents in Colorado State University and the Government website (I will link it later). The lab I got the results from got both the N03-N and N03 amounts and both are under the legal limit. They actually said the exact same thing about the N03 results being 4.4 x more than the N03-N results. The readings that the water company is getting is not what the lab is getting. The Nitrate level is still high and should be addressed, even if it is under the limit.

I have been doing a lot of research on Nitrate as I am coordinating with a local conservation group to address the issue without ... putting a negative spin to it. That way we can get the local administration aware and actually do something about it. The rivers around here are high on algae and have lots of dead spots. This issue goes beyond just us drinking the water and that. Regardless I still think the Nitrate level is higher than I feel safe to drink therefore I have been drinking R.O. water.

Extended exposure to high levels of Nitrate also are linked to a higher chance of getting cancer. 

I will post the letter I type with many references so you can see what I have found. I would just rather be safe than sorry you know?


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

If your water wasn't so hard I would prefer it over my current tap of 0ppm nitrate lol. Nitrate has very low to no risk at the levels you are dealing with. My mom runs a licensed daycare out of their house and the well there is 25ppm nitrate. I often ran tanks at 40+ ppm nitrate when I lived there. 

Nitrate pollution is very common through-out the US. Especially if you live in agricultural areas. No tap water is perfect. My current tap has a radium level of 4.5 where max limit is 5 :-?. I am very sketchy on the chances of nitrate posing a significant risk of cancer. Correlation does not prove causation issues. So many things 'can' possible give you cancer supposedly. Too much sun can give you cancer, too little can possibly give you cancer too along with vitamin D deficiencies. As far as drinking RO water I would be careful with that. AFAKI you should not drink straight RO that has not been remineralized as it leeches minerals out of your body. 

If you wish to control nitrates IMO increase lighting if possible so you get more plant growth. A number of the plants you got from me are good nitrate sponges. Most fish are very tollerable of nitrate levels up too 100+ppm. I personally had GBR spawn in a tank with 40ppm nitrate. The tank normally had levels lower then that, it wasn't until I neglected water changes for two weeks that they ended up spawning. If they were bothered by those levels they would not of spawned.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

Mikaila31 said:


> If your water wasn't so hard I would prefer it over my current tap of 0ppm nitrate lol. Nitrate has very low to no risk at the levels you are dealing with. My mom runs a licensed daycare out of their house and the well there is 25ppm nitrate. I often ran tanks at 40+ ppm nitrate when I lived there.
> 
> Nitrate pollution is very common through-out the US. Especially if you live in agricultural areas. No tap water is perfect. My current tap has a radium level of 4.5 where max limit is 5 :-?. I am very sketchy on the chances of nitrate posing a significant risk of cancer. Correlation does not prove causation issues. So many things 'can' possible give you cancer supposedly. Too much sun can give you cancer, too little can possibly give you cancer too along with vitamin D deficiencies. As far as drinking RO water I would be careful with that. AFAKI you should not drink straight RO that has not been remineralized as it leeches minerals out of your body.
> 
> If you wish to control nitrates IMO increase lighting if possible so you get more plant growth. A number of the plants you got from me are good nitrate sponges. Most fish are very tollerable of nitrate levels up too 100+ppm. I personally had GBR spawn in a tank with 40ppm nitrate. The tank normally had levels lower then that, it wasn't until I neglected water changes for two weeks that they ended up spawning. If they were bothered by those levels they would not of spawned.


Yeah it is hard :/ I totally wish I had soft water.

So what you are saying Mika is that my Nitrate issue is not that bad?

I agree, Correlation does not prove causation, that is why I want to do more research on the topic but I did want to state as it seemed to be a recurring subject in the Nitrate articles I have been reading. 

Luckily the water has been re-mineralogical, it is bottled water . 

Thanks Mika, you make me feel relieved on the Nitrate issue. 

Do you know if mixing the remineralized R.O with the tap water will make the water softer for the Rams, Neons and Cories?


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

Depends on the hardness of the remineralized water. IMO if you want to use RO you are probably better off long term just buying a cheap unit off ebay. I was talking in a chat today with someone who was doing the same. Trying to lower hardness and pH from 8.4 for some dwarf cichlids. They ended up going with a $60-70 5 stage system that did 100 gpd. The membranes on them last quite a while, but it does vary depending on how much crud it is taking out of your water. 1-3 years for the main membrane, 6-12 months on some of the micron filters which cost like $6 each. IDK what you are paying for your RO but around here it is 35cents a gallon if you bring your own container. Long term that can add up pretty quickly on a medium sized tank. Main issue with buying RO water is you don't REALLY know what you are getting if you buy it from a shop. Who knows when they changed what filters on it. If its not properly maintained its hard to say if its really RO or not. Just getting your own unit is better in the long run IMO. I would give you a source of drinking water as well.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

Mikaila31 said:


> Depends on the hardness of the remineralized water. IMO if you want to use RO you are probably better off long term just buying a cheap unit off ebay. I was talking in a chat today with someone who was doing the same. Trying to lower hardness and pH from 8.4 for some dwarf cichlids. They ended up going with a $60-70 5 stage system that did 100 gpd. The membranes on them last quite a while, but it does vary depending on how much crud it is taking out of your water. 1-3 years for the main membrane, 6-12 months on some of the micron filters which cost like $6 each. IDK what you are paying for your RO but around here it is 35cents a gallon if you bring your own container. Long term that can add up pretty quickly on a medium sized tank. Main issue with buying RO water is you don't REALLY know what you are getting if you buy it from a shop. Who knows when they changed what filters on it. If its not properly maintained its hard to say if its really RO or not. Just getting your own unit is better in the long run IMO. I would give you a source of drinking water as well.



You make great and valid points here. The R.O. water around here is a little more expensive, its $.45 a gallon per gallon and $.74 per two gallons. You can only get up to two gallon buckets. There is other systems but they are more expensive. I'm looking into getting a home system installed right now and seeing how much that costs against one of those bought online. 

Would you recommend an R.O. system, the API tap water filter or something like that?

I know AbbeysDad uses the API Tap Water Filter, but I have hard water with high nitrates so it will run that filter a lot harder.

You are right that in the long term buying a filter is better and cheaper. I have realized that the hard way.


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

Just buy a regular RO filter, nothing fancy and IMO say away form any 'aquarium' specific brands as that marketing just adds to the price tag. RO filters are all pretty standardized. The aquarium ones use the same sized cartridges as the non-aquarium ones typically. This was to one that came up before.


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Termato said:


> I can see red inside of their vents. I am not going to do anything just yet because I can't be certain. I am going to keep an eye on all of them and make sure their healthy.
> 
> I think another week of quarantine for the 2 Rams in the 20 should be enough until I can move them into the 29?
> 
> ...


My thinking is this:

How long did you have Burt before it became obvious that he had worms? I'd keep them in QT until you're sure, cuz' you don't want to do that again. . . not to the entire tank. Better safe than sorry. . .


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

Thank Mika, that is def affordable.

I will have to talk it over with the ladie over here and see what we are going to do about it.



Chesherca said:


> My thinking is this:
> 
> How long did you have Burt before it became obvious that he had worms? I'd keep them in QT until you're sure, cuz' you don't want to do that again. . . not to the entire tank. Better safe than sorry. . .


Yea it took about 3-4 weeks for Burts symptoms to show, which is right where we are at with these guys...we'll see. I got my eye on all of them.


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

ahhhh, gotcah! *fingers crossed* I hope they are well, and I know you're keeping a close eye!


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

if you still have the meds from treating burt just run a treatment through the quarantine tank. Internal worms are really not something you can screen for. They don't show up until they have been around for awhile.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

Mikaila31 said:


> if you still have the meds from treating burt just run a treatment through the quarantine tank. Internal worms are really not something you can screen for. They don't show up until they have been around for awhile.


Yea he has been in the QT Tank for almost a week now...

Still seeing stringy poop, although he has come out of hiding. He got more color and is eating a little bit.

You suggest a full treatment of Levamisole HCl (that is what I used for burt) just in case?


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Aside from popular belief to the contrary, poop is NOT necessarily an indicator of illness. . . more likely diet. . . or so we've been told by reliable sources 

Sorry, Term - you know how cautious I am - I'm always worried about 'killing with the cure' so to speak - especially with the more sensitive little Bolivians. . . If it were me, I'd wait it out for a bit longer and see how it goes - it sounds like he's doing much better now that he's on his own, but he hasn't been in there for very long yet. 

You said he was coloring up and feeling more comfortable in the QT tank away from the others, right? Perhaps you should just give him a bit of time before stressing him out with meds. You aren't *SURE* he's sick? Maybe he's just stressed out, and your water isn't ideal for the species anyway. . . 

From what I've read, and seen with my own eyes - though Bolivian Rams are considered to be more hearty than the other rams, and many other sensitive soft-water cichlids, they're still touchy. These guys stress easily, and it can take them some time to feel at ease once they've gone stressed on you - yours has gone through quite a bit of moving and bullying and moving again in a short period of time. Just something to think about. . . they don't react to things in the same way as any of _my_ other fish, and perhaps you haven't had this guy long enough to know how he is personality-wise. One of my little rams is far more prone to stressing out than the others, and takes longer than the rest to recover. Perhaps you just have a bit of a fussy guy on your hands?

I'd hate to tell you NOT to medicate if there DOES turn out to be a problem, but. . . medicating without knowing the real problem is equally dangerous.

What is he eating? Is he filling out at all? Can you get any clear pics of his vent that show the redness that you're worried about? How about the water parameters in HIS tank? I know you've been doing water changes using RO water - what's the nitrate level sitting at now? 

Something else to think on is that Bolivian Rams are sensitive to Nitrates - not just HIGH nitrates, but (in my experience) _ANY FLUCTUATION_ in the nitrate levels (this is why it's recommended that they be added to an established tank). Even if your nitrates shift between levels that are fine for the fish, they WILL show some stress simply because there has been a change. This I've seen with my own eyes...

Remember, please, that your tanks are very much in a state of flux right now. This little ram might simply be reacting to those changes. . . I don't know if it's a good idea to add to his stress by dumping more chemicals into his tank! *worries*


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

Chesherca said:


> Aside from popular belief to the contrary, poop is NOT necessarily an indicator of illness. . . more likely diet. . . or so we've been told by reliable sources
> 
> Sorry, Term - you know how cautious I am - I'm always worried about 'killing with the cure' so to speak - especially with the more sensitive little Bolivians. . . If it were me, I'd wait it out for a bit longer and see how it goes - it sounds like he's doing much better now that he's on his own, but he hasn't been in there for very long yet.
> 
> ...


Yeah that is why I posted it and haven't treated it yet hahaha. I dunno if he has it for sure, i want to take a closer look before anything is done.

I don't see any worms yet and its been 4 weeks yesterday. The little guy in the 10 gallon is getting better, he has colored up more and darkened back up but is still stringy white poop. He still seems a little stressed in there....haven't seen him eat too well but his belly isn't shrunken in. I'll have to take a picture when I get home tonight.

The thing is I haven't started to do water changes with R.O. water in that tank. Only the 20 and 29. I'm going to start doing that now and then see what happens. Hopefully that will help him.

I don't see the redness in there any more. In none of them. I'm going to take some pics of all of them.


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Sounds like things are looking up, then!!! HUZZAH for happier fishies! Maybe you could try feeding them something different for a day or two, and see if that changes things. Peas would be a good start - they're pretty obvious when they come back out


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

Chesherca said:


> Sounds like things are looking up, then!!! HUZZAH for happier fishies! Maybe you could try feeding them something different for a day or two, and see if that changes things. Peas would be a good start - they're pretty obvious when they come back out


haha I will try doing pees for a couple days. I want to get some live food or frozen food for them too.


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Frozen food will be happily devoured! They love just about everything I've ever tossed at them, though after several recommendations, I've stopped feeding bloodworm (which may have been their fave). It seems that many of the protozoa showing up in aquariums are possibly being linked back to bloodworm - be they fresh or frozen. I don't know if it's true, but I'd rather be safe than sorry! My fish devour Brine, Mysis, Krill, Glassworm - and others that I can't think of just now. Pretty much anything. They also love their veggies! Depending on how the changes in their diet affect their stool, you may want to think about switching to a different food for their generic feedings. 



 works for me - and was highly recommended. You live close - let me know if you want me to mail you some to try before you buy it. This one container will last me for AGES!


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

I currently have the two male Bolivian Rams in the 29 gallon and the third male in the 20 gallon. 

I know their males now mainly because all their vents are the same. They have small vents the point backwards. The two more dominant ones in the 29 have started developing their longer dorsal and caudal fins. They have colored up really nice and have been doing well, although they are not doing great with one another as a lot of you noted earlier in this forum, especially Byron. The two males should not be kept together. It was my mistake in sexing them when i got them. Those fish store employees were not help either. 

This winter I am planning on getting rid of my 20 gallon tank which I will either sell or give to my mother. I will then get a new 50 Long or 55 Gallon tank. This tank will be a 100% strict amazon biotope and I would like to move the three males into that tank and introduce either 3-4 CERTAIN females. Any thoughts on this? Another option would be to keep one pair in the 29 and two in the 50/55. I would ideally like to use the 29 gallon for my mollies and platies once I get the new tank though, I would like to put the Kribensis in there.

Right now the Kribensis is in the 10 gallon. The Gourami is in the 20 with the Bolivian Ram. If the third Bolivian Ram doesn't get well soon, I am going to work something with Chesh so that I can give him to her. She has an open 10 Gallon that he could go into. This is an option I am considering if I don't think I can keep him healthy until the new tank. In all honesty, two males might be enough for a 55 gallon. The only problem will be finding the females.

I have things to consider, but I would like to keep all three of my rams, but what is best for the fish is best for the fish.

You can see in this video, after I changed the hardscape...the two males rams are have established their halves of the tank. Their not that comfortable as they have to constantly fend off their area from the fellow ram but I think they will be fine until I get the new tank as long as I don't make any drastic changes until then. When the plants grow it will cover the line of sight more hopefully helping them out. 

When I changed the hardscape they were going after one another, now they are settling down and more or less just keeping to themselves. Only after feeding do they get a little touchy.


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Glad to hear that the two are settling in, at least. . . rams stress easily, and these three have been through their fair share of changes since coming home - plus with the changes in how you're doing in the water/nitrate, and changes to the scape of the tank - hopefully now that things are going to be a bit more stable, they will continue to calm down and settle into their new home.

As for that other little one. . . *cries* I hope you can work it out for him to remain with you happily, but yeah - if not (and if you can't find a buyer), you know he'll have a good home with my Bolivian-obsessed self. If you lived less than 2.5 hours away from me, I'd have already kidnapped him, you know. 

As far as your plans for the 20 vs the 55 and stocking more rams. . . I'm falling back on the fact that BR sold in normal pet shops are too young to properly sex, as a general rule. The idea of trying for a male/female pair to live alone in a tank, I think, should be discarded. Rams can be funny about that kind of thing - they have to be able to pick their own mate, and though I've read instances where they can be faithful for life, I've also read many examples (Byron's being only one) of a mating pair suddenly turning on one-another. I suspect that you would be better off to get a grouping of 6 for your 55g tank - if you *can* get 4 fems to 2 males, this might work out, and you can separate the current couples (if any) to spawn when they're ready (if you're interested in breeding them)

Having a live-bearer species tank is a great idea - of course I would say so, as I'm planning mine right now, lol! I don't know about that Krib, tho. . .she's a nippy little thing! I guess you'll just have to see how that works out.

The video looks good, rams squabble from time to time - it's just their nature! I compare mine to boys on the schoolyard punching shoulders and shoving to see who's toughest. Keep an eye out (I know you are) for any actual HARM or excess stress caused by their scrapping. As long as fins remain intact, no actual injuries are dealt, and nobody seems over stressed (hiding, skittish, pale, not eating, darkening) I'd say this is normal Bolivian behavior (from what I've seen and read - you know I'm new at this, too!)

Good luck, and please continue to keep us posted!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I don't see anything there with respect to the rams. Some challenges from time to time is fine, this is their natural behaviour. I may or may not get violent.

And as for adding females, this can be more trouble as Chesherca said. Sexing this species is next to impossible at the immature age they are at in most stores. Finding some that are larger might help, and then observe carefully how they react in the store tank. This is the best way to tell males from females, their interaction.

Even so, there is no guarantee the males in your tank will accept the female(s) you add. Mine didn't.

On another note, observe how the neons remain above the pile of rock and branches. Perfectly natural behaviour.

Byron.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

Chesherca said:


> Glad to hear that the two are settling in, at least. . . rams stress easily, and these three have been through their fair share of changes since coming home - plus with the changes in how you're doing in the water/nitrate, and changes to the scape of the tank - hopefully now that things are going to be a bit more stable, they will continue to calm down and settle into their new home.
> 
> As for that other little one. . . *cries* I hope you can work it out for him to remain with you happily, but yeah - if not (and if you can't find a buyer), you know he'll have a good home with my Bolivian-obsessed self. If you lived less than 2.5 hours away from me, I'd have already kidnapped him, you know.
> 
> ...


I can always put the Kribensis up for sale. She has gotten bigger and more colorful since I got her.

The two in there right now look beautiful. Everything from their scales to their fins are in great condition. The only one who was hiding is the one that is in the 20 gallon right now.



Byron said:


> I don't see anything there with respect to the rams. Some challenges from time to time is fine, this is their natural behaviour. I may or may not get violent.
> 
> And as for adding females, this can be more trouble as Chesherca said. Sexing this species is next to impossible at the immature age they are at in most stores. Finding some that are larger might help, and then observe carefully how they react in the store tank. This is the best way to tell males from females, their interaction.
> 
> ...


Yeah that is some good advice, I will look at some better LFS's around me to see. I'm going back to Rockville so if I find any in the stores there i could always consider them. I don't think I'll be getting the rams until the new tank is ready and cycled. The only thing i'm planning on adding to this tank right now is the 2 cories to make my total of 6. I think that will make them feel more comfortable.

12 Neon Tetras
8 Harlequin Rasboras
6 Bronze Cory
2 Bolivian Rams
1 Male Albino Bristlenose Pleco
Ramshorns and Bladder Snails

That is the ideal final stocking for the 29 gallon. When I get the 50L/55 the Harlequins will take over the 29, I may get like 12 more of them. I will move the Neons to the 55 and get more of them.


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## Termato (Feb 21, 2012)

Also, this is a video from over a week ago when I first did the rescape. The rams were just introduced and they weren't too happy with one another. I haven't caught any of this behavior again so I am hoping they settled down.

They mainly just flare and don't confront one another right now. I'm keeping an eye out.

You can see what I'm talking about in the first ten seconds of the video:


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Any time Bolivians are introduced into a new environment, or their environment is drastically changed, their aggression will also raise. Not only are they stressed from the change, but you're forcing them to establish (or re-establish) their territories and hierarchy. . . lip locking and, well, ramming is how they go about doing it! Again, as long as nobody is coming to any physical harm, or too stressed out - it's normal ram behavior. Mine were more scrappy when I first put them into my tank, and since have settled to the point that I only see any aggression (more or less) during mealtimes - and it's subdued. I rarely see lip-locking anymore, and when I do, it breaks off fairly quickly. . . I've read that such behavior will intensify as the rams reach sexual maturity, or are ready to mate, but I haven't gotten that far yet!


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