# Frozen bloodworms a problem for Corys?



## squilky

Tuesday night I fed my betta some bloodworms. Once the blood hit the water, my two corys went bonkers and started eating the bloodworms uneaten by the betta. They seemed ok for a while, but they just seem To be laying around today. Not a lot of swimming and algae eating like usual. Betta seems fine. Tested my water and the numbers are about the same as they were last week. Water seems a tad clody though. Should I be worried?
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## Byron

You're talking frozen bloodworms, not live; this should rule out the chance of pathogens that can come in with live worms. However, if the worms thawed and then re-froze, there might be trouble.

I have some general comments on bloodworms. First, never use them as a regular (daily) staple; they should be more of a "treat." My corys love bloodworms, but they only get them 3 times a week.

Second, I never put them in still frozen; I have no idea if this matters, but common sense tells me that these fish would never get frozen worms naturally, so why should I give it to them? I thaw the bloodworms in a dish of water, then squirt them where I want them with a pipette so there is not a mass of bloodworms that some fish will gorge on.

How much did you put in? I can't see bloodworms turning the water cloudy the day following. I'm inclined to think there may be something else. When you say the water numbers are about the same--what exactly are they? Ammonia, pH, nitrate are things I would check; if you can provide numbers, and indicate how they vary from last week, it might point something out for us.

Byron.


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## squilky

My suspicions were correct, I returned from work today and both Corys were dead. 

Yes, frozen bloodworms. I broke off a piece and placed it in a plastic cup. When the worms thawed, I dropped a bunch of maybe 5-7 worms in. As they hit the water they separated. 

Water numbers, well I just retested with my API master test kit and the numbers are the same. 0.25 ammonia, 0 nitrites and 5.0 for nitrates, with a ph of 7.4. Water is still kind of milky.last week my Ammonia was 0.50, nitrites were 0.25 and nitriates were 20ppm. So I think my water conditions improved. One other thing I did was remove my old Aqueon filter media and put in plane floss back on Monday night. I'm wondering if maybe the floss was too thick and the water couldn't flow through properly? I have since added a new Aqueon filter carbon between two layers of floss. 

I would like to add a new Cory before tomorrow night. I was able to keep my son away from the tank tonight so he didn't notice the dead guys. Is it safe to put a fish back in? My betta seems fine. Could the milky/cloudy water be from the sick fish? Should I do a partial water change? Complete? I don't want to have to cycle again if I can help it. Any suggestions for A) keeping my betta safe and B) mKing the water safe for a new Cory.
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## Byron

I would not recommend adding any new fish until the cause for the loss is determined. I think we can safely say it had nothing to do with the bloodworms. Aside from this, corydoras are shoaling fish that should be in a group, minimum three; alone or even a pair they are under more stress just from that, and that means weakened for whatever else might occur.

Ammonia or nitrite above zero is a sign something is wrong. Replacing the filter media would have removed a quantity of bacteria, and depending upon the age of the tank this can cause ammonia and then nitrite to rise. But replacing the media this Monday does not explain the ammonia and nitrite high last week. How long has the tank been set up? What is your water change schedule (how much and how often)? And what additives are put in the water (conditioner, etc)?

Corydoras are highly sensitive fish to fluctuating water parameters, unstable water conditions and any chemical or medication. I would expect them to be the losers over the betta for any of these issues.
With your answers we will hopefully narrow this down.

Byron.


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## squilky

Tank is about 12 weeks old. Early on, before I knew about cycling the tank, I would take the fish out and do a complete water change and rinse the gravel every few days. Been cycling now for about 6 weeks. When I add new water, I add tap water conditioner, and Cycle. I do water changes of 25-33% twice a week. It could be a coincidence, but the two corys were perfectly happy and active when I was feeding them algae wafers and the betta fish was eating wafers. Thought I would give them some bloodworms as a treat. They got very lethargic a few hours after eating the blood worms.
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## squilky

Oh and after removing the dead Corys, I did a 1/3 water change, and it looks clearer already.
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## Byron

As I mentioned previously, it is always possible that the bloodworms were tainted (something in the packaging, being thawed and refrozen before you got them, etc). That can't be ruled out.

Six weeks plus the numbers you mentioned suggest to me that the tank was not fully cycled. It takes anywhere from 2 to 8 weeks normally for a tank to cycle. "Cycled" means the bacteria are at a level sufficient to handle the ammonia (and nitrite) being produced continuously at that point in the tank's life. Until the tank is established (something quite different) any increase in ammonia (which can be from new fish, cleaning/replacing filter media, washing the substrate in tap water which contains chlorine that kills bacteria) can cause problems. It takes nitrosomonas bacteria (the ones that use ammonia and produce nitrite) about 9 hours to multiply under optimum conditions, and nitrospira bacteria (convert nitrite to less harmful nitrate) about 20 hours to multiply. In an established tank there will be sufficient stability to offset slight increases in ammonia, and the larger the tank the more this occurs; in new tanks that are still within the initial cycling period or may be just cycled, the "stability" is not there and a slight ammonia rise can trigger a mini-cycle.

The corys as I said are highly sensitive to all this, much moreso than a betta and many other fish. Ammonia and nitrite poisoning can be quick or slow to show up; some fish manage to live through it, though with internal damage we can't see and which may cause their early demise at some point in the future. Ammonia burns the gills, nitrite gets in the blood and slowly prevents it from carrying oxygen. Lethargy which in corys is usually the second sign of any trouble, could be from either of these. Increased respiration (breathing faster than normal) is usually the first sign.

You don't mention the specific conditioner; some detoxify ammonia, some also nitrite (Prime may be the only one to handle nitrite) and one of these would help a bit over a regular conditioner that just handles chlorine/chloramine and heavy metals. The "Cycle" aids the establishment of the nitrifying bacteria colony, so that is a good thing in new tanks. I personally prefer Seachem's Stability over Cycle, but in this case continue with the Cycle if you still have it, according to the directions on the label. Monitor ammonia and nitrite; when they are at zero for consecutive days, the tank should be cycled for the fish in it. During this period, don't clean or replace the filter, and don't vacuum the substrate. Do partial water changes using the conditioner (and Cycle) as needed to keep nitrite below .25, daily if you must; once this is down, regular weekly changes will be sufficient, 30-40% of the tank.

The cloudiness could be due to the ammonia rise, or a bacterial bloom.

Once everything is stable, then slowly add more fish if you like. Corys I would get minimum 3. No mention is made of the tank size, but if this is a 10g or 20g three will be fine; more if it is larger (5 in a 29g for example).

Byron.


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## squilky

Thanks so much for all the tips Byron. The water conditioner I use is API Tap Water Conditioner. I have a bottle of prime as well. Should I use Prime instead?

Ironically, a friend at work has a small beta bowl on their desk at work with no filter and their water is always crystal clear.
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## Byron

squilky said:


> Thanks so much for all the tips Byron. The water conditioner I use is API Tap Water Conditioner. I have a bottle of prime as well. Should I use Prime instead?
> 
> Ironically, a friend at work has a small beta bowl on their desk at work with no filter and their water is always crystal clear.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're welcome. During the cycling, use the Prime; once established, use the API.

Betta are unique fish, though most of us do not endorse keeping them in those bowls. Your tank will settle and be beautiful, just give it time and don't rush it; nature takes her time to do things.

Byron.


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## squilky

I think it could be Ich. I checked my Betta last night and noticed a white spot around one of it's gills. When I woke up this morning, I saw several other small white dots around the head area. Don't have any experience with Ich. From what I read, there are several different products available to treat it. Do you suggest one over another? And I assume I need to treat the whole tank and not just isolate the betta and treat him alone.


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## Byron

If it is ich, yes, you treat the tank. You probably know the life cycle and why this is critical. If not, here's a link to info on this issue from the Disease section:
http://redirectingat.com/?id=401X51...pical-fish-diseases/important-articles-11660/

If the betta is the only fish in the tank, you could isolate it to a "hospital" tank if the main tank is large; the only advantage to this is less medication. The "empty" main tank would, after two weeks, be free of ich. But if it is not a large tank, I would just treat the betta in it to avoid further stress moving it. Stress takes a real toll on fish.

I said "if" because sometimes it can be something else, and sometimes these things clear up on their own. However, given the stress to the fish due to the cycling issue, it may very well be ich. Fish that are stressed frequently come down with ich (one reason why new fish so frequently carry it).

I have cured ich several times (I see it more than one with my experience should:shock with Aquari-Sol. I like this product because it is less stressful on sensitive fish (such as corys if they were still alive, and characins), you don't need to fiddle with higher temperatures (though with a betta that is not an issue) and it works. The salt method also works but some fish cannot tolerate salt (corys and characins are not good candidates for salt treatments), I am not knowledgeable enough on betta to comment on salt; I know I would never use it on my anabantids, Chocolate Gourami and pygmy gourami, they are too sensitive.


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## bearwithfish

if i may also interject some advice based on my personal experiance.... it is also possible to treat ICK with heat alon and no medications.... if you raise the temp 1 degree per day until you reach 88-89 F and then leave it there for 7 days and then slowly reduce temp by 1 degree per day until back to your normal level you will have sped up the ick life cycle and killed them all off... with out medications and with no harm to your environment.. an added benifit would be that BB will grow more rapidly during this time hastening your cycle.....
not attempting to be contrary nor am i attempting to step on anyones feet just demonstrating one way that has worked for our tanks.....


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## Byron

bearwithfish said:


> if i may also interject some advice based on my personal experiance.... it is also possible to treat ICK with heat alon and no medications.... if you raise the temp 1 degree per day until you reach 88-89 F and then leave it there for 7 days and then slowly reduce temp by 1 degree per day until back to your normal level you will have sped up the ick life cycle and killed them all off... with out medications and with no harm to your environment.. an added benifit would be that BB will grow more rapidly during this time hastening your cycle.....
> not attempting to be contrary nor am i attempting to step on anyones feet just demonstrating one way that has worked for our tanks.....


This remedy was mentioned in another thread, forgot when now, and it is in Mary Bailey's article on ich in the May 2010 issue of AFI. She mentions 90F as the temp for several days (until 3 days following the last visible spots she says), but warns that some fish cannot tolerate this and will die. But if the high temp is not an issue for the particular fish, this would seem to be the best method as no drugs get into the water and they cause stress for many fish.


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## AaronCombs

i use jungle brand for ich. However make sure you do your water changes when you start treating for ich. It helps remove it.


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## redchigh

Well, do you have any other fish?

If you just have the Betta, you could try salt. (salt does not get along with cories, but if they're all dead...)


Ich also doesn't usually kill that fast.

With a Betta as the only fish, you could try one remedy that seems to work particularly well with Bettas...

It involves moving the fish into a new container every couple days. Ich has a three-stage life cycle-
Begins as a cyst (basically an egg.) It hatches after a couple days and looks for a host. Then it anchors to the fish and eats it's flesh. Once the parasite has had enough, it forms into a cyst and dies. Eventually the cyst falls off, and rests on the substrate until it hatches and begins the cycle anew.

So, you can use salt, or an overthecounter ich treatment...
Or just move the fish every couple days, so the cysts fall off and the fish is removed before they begin swimming again.
The parasite can only live about 1-2 days without a host.

As a side note, stress makes fish much more succeptable to ich. I had ich once, and it was all over my black mollies, and one platy- never spread beyond that.


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## squilky

At the moment, all I have is the Betta and a mystery snail. I did some water changes, and stopped feeding for a few days and the fish and snail seem much happier. I've heard people describe Ich as resembling someone sprinkling salt on a fish. My Betta never looked like that. I think maybe it's just the coloring of the Betta.

I have a small Hydor heater in my tank and it doesn't have a thermostat to automatically cut off when it reaches a certain temp. I usually plug it in overnight when the house gets cooler and unplug it when I go to work. I forgot to do that the other day and left the heater plugged in. When I got home, the water was almost 85 degrees. Are Cory's generally more sensitive to hear than Bettas?


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## Byron

I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread that corys are highly sensitive to fluctuating water parameters; temperature is a parameter, along with pH and hardness.

I don't see the cory species mentioned in your posts. A few species can manage with warmer temps long-term (Corydoras sterbai is one, and thus a good cory for tanks with discus and rams that require warm temps around 82-85). Some can tolerate higher temps short-term (a couple days). Many cannot tolerate warm temps (like 85F) at all. Aside from this, fluctuating temperatures is not going to make your fish comfortable. Even a betta may develop problems with constantly fluctuating temperatures if they are significant.

It is extremely important that fish have stability in their water parameters. I highly recommend you buy a good quality heater that will maintain a fairly constant temperature. There is some logic in having an aquarium a couple degrees cooler at night than during the day; after all, waters in the tropical rainforest usually fluctuate diurnally by a couple degrees. But this should be controlled by heaters, and the cooler temperature should be a night when the fish are resting and less active.

I would surmise that several things occurred and the corys simply could not handle it. These things all cause stress, and with fish just as with humans we know that stress affects the immune system as well as other things. The goal of each of us must be to reduce or eliminate as much stress as possible. The fish will definitely be healthier.

We have a number of fish profiles on this site: click "Tropical Fish Profiles" second from the left on the blue bar across the top of the page, or if names are used in posts they will be shaded and clicking on the name will take you to that profile. You can find out info on a fish's preferred water temperatures and other important data in the profiles of the species.

Byron.


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## squilky

Im having trouble finding a heater small enough to fit in a 2.5 gallon tank. My tank goes down to 75 or 76 overnight, maybe I am better off just not using the heater.
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## AaronCombs

putting a heater in that size tank can cook your fishies...

just an FYI... even for a 2.5 gal i don't think I'd have that many fish in it.

Betta's need 1 gal alone.


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## squilky

AaronCombs said:


> putting a heater in that size tank can cook your fishies...
> 
> just an FYI... even for a 2.5 gal i don't think I'd have that many fish in it.
> 
> Betta's need 1 gal alone.



Well all I have in the tank now is a male Betta and a mystery snail. After I lost the 2 Cory's, I realized the tank was too small for more than that. 

As far as the heater goes, the heater I bought was labeled as being specially made for small tanks under 5 gallons. So Im surprised that the temperature just keeps rising and rising. Not a very effective product at all. I didn't use the heater last night, and the water was 75 when I woke up this morning. I would expect that without the heater, the water will be about 77-78 during the day. Is this ok for a betta? Or is it too cool?


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## 1077

bearwithfish said:


> if i may also interject some advice based on my personal experiance.... it is also possible to treat ICK with heat alon and no medications.... if you raise the temp 1 degree per day until you reach 88-89 F and then leave it there for 7 days and then slowly reduce temp by 1 degree per day until back to your normal level you will have sped up the ick life cycle and killed them all off... with out medications and with no harm to your environment.. an added benifit would be that BB will grow more rapidly during this time hastening your cycle.....
> not attempting to be contrary nor am i attempting to step on anyones feet just demonstrating one way that has worked for our tanks.....


 
I would simply add that at higher temps, oxygen levels in the tank may make one consider adding an airstone during this form of treatment. At higher temps,less oxygen is available.


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## AaronCombs

I housed my female betta that i use for breeding in a 2.5 gal tank until i was able to get a 10 gal setup for her. She was in it for over a month, no issues, and now I have baby betta's which says a lot I suppose lol.

Honestly a few degree change through the day isn't that bad, as it would do the same in a natural environment. Compared to a heater cooking everything then being unplugged to cool down. The heaters that kick off at certain temps, haven't seen any in a while, however last I saw they weren't that cheap either. 

I own lots of lil buggers and tanks so cost is a big thing I look at... I would rather take my time and breed fish so I don't have to buy more. I have people who give me male / female pairs to breed just so I can have some lol.


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