# Am I overstocked? Suggestions?



## AK Fresh Water (Jun 23, 2012)

I'm making plans to start up a 20 gal long, heavily planted freshwater tank. I'm obsessed with catfish, so here's the list:

6 Sterbai Cory Cats (2.5 inch each)
3 Oto Cats (2 inch max)
...and possibly 1-3 Upsidedown Cats (4 inch max)

My main concern regards the Upsidedown Cats. I've read that they shoal. I don't want to overstock my tank though. Is this plan too overcrowded? I've considered only getting one Upsidedown Cat, but I don't want him/her to be miserable. Is there a better catfish alternative?

I really wish I could get a bigger tank, but unfortunately the dorms won't allow anything larger.

Advice or suggestions would be wonderful. Thank you.


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## marshallsea (Apr 30, 2012)

AK Fresh Water said:


> I'm making plans to start up a 20 gal long, heavily planted freshwater tank. I'm obsessed with catfish, so here's the list:
> 
> 6 Sterbai Cory Cats (2.5 inch each)
> 3 Oto Cats (2 inch max)
> ...


You can go to aqadvisor.com and plug your stuff into their stocking calculator as a guide. IMO its better to have more of 1 or 2 species than fewer of 3 or 4 species.


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## AK Fresh Water (Jun 23, 2012)

marshallsea said:


> You can go to aqadvisor.com and plug your stuff into their stocking calculator as a guide. IMO its better to have more of 1 or 2 species than fewer of 3 or 4 species.


I have that site bookmarked. It's a great resource. :]
I'd like to hear some people's opinions though; I don't entirely trust computers.

I agree, but a tank comprised only of Cory and Oto cats would be a little too bland for me.
I want a statement fish to bring some movement to the middle/upper part of the tank.


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## marshallsea (Apr 30, 2012)

AK Fresh Water said:


> I have that site bookmarked. It's a great resource. :]
> I'd like to hear some people's opinions though; I don't entirely trust computers.
> 
> I agree, but a tank comprised only of Cory and Oto cats would be a little too bland for me.
> I want a statement fish to bring some movement to the middle/upper part of the tank.


I see. Sorry thats out of my experience range. Good luck.


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## Varkolak (Jun 9, 2012)

Those numbers looks fine to me but you would want a minimum of 5 otos, if you were to go with a planted tank you wouldn't have any issues at all with what you want minus the upside downs, maybe look for a 29 and call it a 20 :3 most people cant tell the differance. Upside downs get pretty large so I would avoid them until you can get a larger tank in favor of maybe some dwarf loachs or if you can find them pygmy corydora both are mid level shoalers and If I could find them around here they would be at the top of my list


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## kathymalaspina (Jun 20, 2012)

Learning from everyones posts. Thanks.


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

What kind of statement do you want to make? I have a tank devoted to loaches, but because they are nocturnal and small, I have a school of tetra that swim in the column in the daytime. It gives the tank a much more "alive" appearance. Do you just want to add some activity to the tank? Color? 

I'm also assuming that you know your water hardness and pH and know that these fish can live comfortably in that water.


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## AK Fresh Water (Jun 23, 2012)

thekoimaiden said:


> What kind of statement do you want to make? I have a tank devoted to loaches, but because they are nocturnal and small, I have a school of tetra that swim in the column in the daytime. It gives the tank a much more "alive" appearance. Do you just want to add some activity to the tank? Color?
> 
> I'm also assuming that you know your water hardness and pH and know that these fish can live comfortably in that water.


Yes, I wanted to add some movement to to middle/upper part of the tank. Color is nice, but most catfish aren't colorful. I was hoping there was a medium sized catfish that can be kept as a single that also swims in the middle/top.

Yes, I own a kit that tests many water parameters. It doesn't do hardness, but I've spoken to the LFS.


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## AK Fresh Water (Jun 23, 2012)

Varkolak said:


> Those numbers looks fine to me but you would want a minimum of 5 otos, if you were to go with a planted tank you wouldn't have any issues at all with what you want minus the upside downs, maybe look for a 29 and call it a 20 :3 most people cant tell the differance. Upside downs get pretty large so I would avoid them until you can get a larger tank in favor of maybe some dwarf loachs or if you can find them pygmy corydora both are mid level shoalers and If I could find them around here they would be at the top of my list


I thought about getting the 29, but I was too nervous that the university would make me downgrade, or even ban me from fish keeping if they somehow found out. 
I've already purchased the 20 gal. xP
Also, the only dimension that changes is the height. I wanted to make sure that the Corys had plenty of oxygen at the bottom of the tank. Additionally, I figured it would be easier to grow plants like dwarf baby tears in a shallower tank since the plants are exposed to more light.

Why should I have a minimum of 5 otos?


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

AK Fresh Water said:


> Yes, I wanted to add some movement to to middle/upper part of the tank. Color is nice, but most catfish aren't colorful. I was hoping there was a medium sized catfish that can be kept as a single that also swims in the middle/top.
> 
> Yes, I own a kit that tests many water parameters. It doesn't do hardness, but I've spoken to the LFS.


Most cory catfish are rather adaptable and will be comfortable below 12 dGH as will oto catfish, but you should really double check the hardness (GH and KH) with your local water treatment plant. Many people are surprised to learn that their water is either harder of softer than they believe. 

If you just want some color and movement, I think your best bet is to get a school of easy tetra or rasbora like pristella tetra, glowlight tetra, or harlequin rasbora. Or a trio of honey gourami. You might be able to find a catfish that fits your wants, but it's not going to be a common or easy to find (which often means difficult to care for) fish. I'm not too sure if you can search by swimming position or color, but if you're looking for catfish profiles Planet Catfish is probably your best bet.


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## Varkolak (Jun 9, 2012)

From what I've heard otos are all wild caught and will waste away if you don't give them enough of their own kind to shoal with. I had another idea for you - How about an African Butterfly fish? Not really a catfish but looks very similar and VERY unique.

Freshwater butterflyfish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## AK Fresh Water (Jun 23, 2012)

Varkolak said:


> From what I've heard otos are all wild caught and will waste away if you don't give them enough of their own kind to shoal with. I had another idea for you - How about an African Butterfly fish? Not really a catfish but looks very similar and VERY unique.
> 
> Freshwater butterflyfish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Unfortunately, I think a 20 gal long tank wouldn't provide enough surface area for it to thrive. :c
It is an awesome looking fish though!


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## Varkolak (Jun 9, 2012)

My lfs has one that I've been eyeing and it never moves much, its a wait for prey to come by hunter, you can feed them live crickets and watch them snap it up... I think it would eat my rasboras in one tank and I think my malabar danios would stress it to no end in the other u.u its sad because its really cool


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

A 20 long will be plenty big for a butterfly to just sit around... Cause that's all they do. They are not active fish. I wouldn't put one in less than a 30 inch tank though. While cool looking, it's the most boring fish I have.

A 20 long is not tall enough to support more than a few species. Taking into account substrate and the air gap at the top, the tank has only 8 or 9 inches of usable height. While height isn't usually a problem, it is with a 20 long as the fish will literally be on top of one another.


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## AK Fresh Water (Jun 23, 2012)

Ok, I've been doing some thinking and I would be happy with 2 species.
I've tossed the 3rd species idea.

My two ideas now are either:
a) 7 Sterba Cory & 7 Oto Cat
b) 15 Dwarf/Pygmy Cory & 7 Oto Cats


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## AK Fresh Water (Jun 23, 2012)

Sorry for being a noob, but is there a way I can edit my original post?
I know I could before, but do you loose the ability after a certain amount of time or something?


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

If that's what you are looking at for stock then I think you could certainly add a surface dwelling fish like a butterfly or two. Just be sure to have a lid without gaps or it could jump out.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

My only concern would be small cories and butterfly fish.. Since cories love to dart up for air, I think a butterfly fish could be able to catch one, the pygmies and dwarfs are pretty tiny.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

I've kept mine with corys, but not pygmy corys - that could be a cause for concern.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Yea, the sterbai should be fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AK Fresh Water (Jun 23, 2012)

Olympia said:


> My only concern would be small cories and butterfly fish.. Since cories love to dart up for air, I think a butterfly fish could be able to catch one, the pygmies and dwarfs are pretty tiny.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I probably won't end up getting Dwarf/Pygmy Cories since the distributor I buy from doesn't sell them.

Hm. According to AqAdvisor, I'd be pushing it if I had:
6 Sterbai Cory
6 Oto Cat
1 African Butterfly

I have a HOB filter made for 30 gal that has a rate of 125gph.
I suppose I could buy the next size up that does 200gph, but I don't want to disrupt the water too much and loose all my C02.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

I think you are fine.. AQ advisor can't take into consideration that your tank is heavily planted after all. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AK Fresh Water (Jun 23, 2012)

Olympia said:


> I think you are fine.. AQ advisor can't take into consideration that your tank is heavily planted after all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Right. That's exactly why I'm asking for advice from real people. :]


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## AK Fresh Water (Jun 23, 2012)

Wow, this is really exciting!
I've considered African Butterfly Fish in the past, but never really had the opportunity to get one.
Next to Dojo Loaches & Pearl Gouramis, they are one of my favorite fish.


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

Glad we could help you get something you like! Funny thing about dojos and pearl gourami is that they need rather different setups. Dojos don't like temps over 75F, but the gourami thrive there. lol Oh well. It's just another excuse to get more tanks! ;-)


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

I keep pearl gouramis and dojos together. The tank is unheated and ranges in temp from 75 to 82, depending on the time of year. The dojos do fine with the summer heat.


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## AK Fresh Water (Jun 23, 2012)

thekoimaiden said:


> Glad we could help you get something you like! Funny thing about dojos and pearl gourami is that they need rather different setups. Dojos don't like temps over 75F, but the gourami thrive there. lol Oh well. It's just another excuse to get more tanks! ;-)


Right. Someday I'd like to have a Dojo / Black Moore (another favorite) tank. I thought the contrast of white long slender bodies against black bulbous ones would be awesome. I know they have similar temperature requirements.

I don't know much about cooler thanks though.


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## AK Fresh Water (Jun 23, 2012)

I just wanted to say that I _really_ appreciate the help that has been given so far.
I am very concerned about the health of the fish that I take care of. I've found that the employees at the nearest fish store (Petco) are not passionate and are also less knowledgeable about fish than I am. Unfortunately since I live in Alaska, I have very few options and have been forced to make my purchases of fish and plants via the internet. As a result, almost all my learning has been by reading books and through trial and error.
It is nice finally being able to discuss aquariums with experienced fish keepers.


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

AK Fresh Water said:


> Right. Someday I'd like to have a Dojo / Black Moore (another favorite) tank. I thought the contrast of white long slender bodies against black bulbous ones would be awesome. I know they have similar temperature requirements.
> 
> I don't know much about cooler thanks though.


I actually tried that exact same combination: goldfish and dojo loaches. It didn't end well. I hate to be a dream dasher, but my dojos gained a taste for the slow-moving goldfish's slime coat. I love the shape of the dojo loaches and was delighted to find there is a smaller, more peaceful, and tropical equivalent: brown kuhli loaches _(Pangio oblonga_). They only get about 4-5 inches long. Mine are currently burrowing and rooting around in a 29 gal with a gourami and some tetra. Really cute little buggers. And their cousins the kuhli loaches (_Pangio kuhlii_) come in beautiful black and yellow patterns. 

I remember another user on this board used to live in Alaska. She kept bettas, and the only place she could find fish stuff was her local WalMart. It sounds like you guys are pretty limited up there. We're glad you found us, too.


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## Varkolak (Jun 9, 2012)

AK Fresh Water said:


> I am very concerned about the health of the fish that I take care of. I've found that the employees at the nearest fish store (Petco) are not passionate and are also less knowledgeable about fish than I am. .



That is a reoccurring thing it seems, I went online and found that petco carried kuhli loaches so I made the trip to the nearest one to find out "Oh we shut all our fish tanks down" Pissed would be an understatement in my case. Ended up saying F it and going to my normal LFS to dig in their planted tank for half an hour to find 4 wild male guppys who are looking stunning in my tank in all their 1/2 inch glory and for $ 0.81 for all 4 petco can go die


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

That's really odd about the goldfish/dojos. I've not had any such problems, and there are a lot of people that keep those fish together. It's a tried and true combination.


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## AK Fresh Water (Jun 23, 2012)

thekoimaiden said:


> I actually tried that exact same combination: goldfish and dojo loaches. It didn't end well. I hate to be a dream dasher, but my dojos gained a taste for the slow-moving goldfish's slime coat. I love the shape of the dojo loaches and was delighted to find there is a smaller, more peaceful, and tropical equivalent: brown kuhli loaches _(Pangio oblonga_). They only get about 4-5 inches long. Mine are currently burrowing and rooting around in a 29 gal with a gourami and some tetra. Really cute little buggers. And their cousins the kuhli loaches (_Pangio kuhlii_) come in beautiful black and yellow patterns.
> 
> I remember another user on this board used to live in Alaska. She kept bettas, and the only place she could find fish stuff was her local WalMart. It sounds like you guys are pretty limited up there. We're glad you found us, too.


Well dang. At least I found out now, rather then after I put them together.
I might just have to do a Gourami/Kuhli loach tank someday. I'll keep that in mind.

Yikes, Walmart sounds like the only thing worse than Petco. xP


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## AK Fresh Water (Jun 23, 2012)

Even though I already bought a 20 gal long a couple months ago, I've decided that I am going to get a 29gal! 
The length and width are the same; only the height is taller. The maximum aquarium size at the dorms is 25 gal, but there's no way they will be able to tell the difference.

This means I can get those Upside Down Cats that I've been wanting!
I'm also thinking about upgrading to a Fluval 45 gal canister filter, but I'll probably end up slapping on a 30 gal HOB filter on there as well. Is that really overkill? Will it disrupt the water too much causing me to loose my CO2? I'm not using injections.

Here's the stock:
7 Sterbai Cory
7 Oto Cat
3/4 Upside Down Cat

However, AqAdvisor says this is 102% stocking and that Upside Down Cats are 'too aggressive' for Oto Cats. It's going to be heavily, heavily planted though.

What do you think?


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## ashley9333 (Jun 26, 2012)

i agree


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Some of my heavier stocked tanks come in at over 200%. My lightest stocked tanks come in at 100%. The percentage stocked they use is very conservative.

I agree, they will not know the difference between 29 and 25.

I would just stick with a canister, and if you need a little extra circulation you can get a mini circulation fan.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

AK Fresh Water said:


> Even though I already bought a 20 gal long a couple months ago, I've decided that I am going to get a 29gal!
> The length and width are the same; only the height is taller. The maximum aquarium size at the dorms is 25 gal, but there's no way they will be able to tell the difference.
> 
> This means I can get those Upside Down Cats that I've been wanting!
> ...


First, for a filter, get a Fluval U1 or U2. They are small internal filters. The U1 is just a sponge, which is sufficient with live plants. The U2 has compartments for media like an external canister but smaller. I have an old Eheim that is basically a U1, on my 33g now, and it is super. Sadly, Eheim don't make these any longer, so looking around in case my 15-year old Eheim quits, i found the U1. I would not use an HOB. And an external canister is fine but more expensive and unnecessary. Let the plants do what they do best--filter. The mechanical filter is just to move the water gently, none of these fish was a torrent like any HOB would provide on so small a tank.

Fish. Otos, I would not get 7, this is way too many. A trio would be fine if you like them (you said earlier you do), but in a 29g i would omit them altogether and get something else since space is limited.

The C. sterbai is fine at 7, the S. nigriventris is good with 3-4 but no fewer.

As you like catfish, how about Whiptail Catfish or Red Lizard Whiptail? Water is soft and acidic (isn't it?) so Farlowella vittata is another good option, and one of these would easily handle common algae as good or better than the otos so i wouldn't have both.

Are you off the Pantadon buchholzi? A pair (male/female) would work, with no small lower fish as these will be gobbled up if they approach the surface, or at least the attempt will be made. P. buchholzi have huge mouths. This fish is another reason for no HOB, they need a calm surface.

If no P. buchholzi, there are many suitable mid to upper range fish for a smaller tank (29g). Soft acidic water also benefits. Rasbora, the dwarf species, or the Trigonostigma species in a group; pencilfish; hatchetfish; some of the "common" tetra like cardinals, Roberts Tetra, Rosy tetra, Black Phantom Tetra. All of these are quiet fish, not swimmers, so a planted 29g is ideal. A group of 7 of two of these, with the mentioned catfish.

Lots of options.

Byron.


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## AK Fresh Water (Jun 23, 2012)

Byron said:


> First, for a filter, get a Fluval U1 or U2. They are small internal filters. The U1 is just a sponge, which is sufficient with live plants. The U2 has compartments for media like an external canister but smaller. I have an old Eheim that is basically a U1, on my 33g now, and it is super. Sadly, Eheim don't make these any longer, so looking around in case my 15-year old Eheim quits, i found the U1. I would not use an HOB. And an external canister is fine but more expensive and unnecessary. Let the plants do what they do best--filter. The mechanical filter is just to move the water gently, none of these fish was a torrent like any HOB would provide on so small a tank.
> 
> Fish. Otos, I would not get 7, this is way too many. A trio would be fine if you like them (you said earlier you do), but in a 29g i would omit them altogether and get something else since space is limited.
> 
> ...


 Fluval U1 says it is for up to 15 gals, but since it is heavily planted I trust your judgement. Clearly you know what you're doing.
Yes my water is soft and acidic.
Whiptails are nice, but it sounds like they are another bottom dweller. I want my corys to have lots of room at the bottom. I think Oto cats are adorable, but I might be willing to replace them with a less sensitive, readily available fish. I'm just having trouble finding Catfish that enjoy the middle or upper portions of the tank.
I've read up a lot on the Upside Down Cats, but no one specifically says whether they are top, middle or bottom dwellers. I'm assuming they are all over the place. Makes since they are built to grab food from the surface.
If the otos were replaced, I would defiantly still be interested in the African Butterfly Fish. It sounds like they would eat the poor Otos.
I have 0 interest in tetras, but I am really fond of Hatchets. 

As far as stock goes here are my ideas:
Option 1-
7 Sterbai Cory
3 Oto Cats
5 Upside Down Cats

Option 2-
7 Sterbai Cory
7 Marble Hatchet Fish (Or 1/2 medium sized middle/top dwelling catfish)
4 Upside Down Cats

Option 3-
7 Sterbai Cory
4 Upside Down Cats
2 African Butterfly Fish

Are these fairly balanced? Too heavy of a bioload? Too crowded?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

AK Fresh Water said:


> Fluval U1 says it is for up to 15 gals, but since it is heavily planted I trust your judgement. Clearly you know what you're doing.
> Yes my water is soft and acidic.
> Whiptails are nice, but it sounds like they are another bottom dweller. I want my corys to have lots of room at the bottom. I think Oto cats are adorable, but I might be willing to replace them with a less sensitive, readily available fish. I'm just having trouble finding Catfish that enjoy the middle or upper portions of the tank.
> I've read up a lot on the Upside Down Cats, but no one specifically says whether they are top, middle or bottom dwellers. I'm assuming they are all over the place. Makes since they are built to grab food from the surface.
> ...


No issues, my only suggestion is you need some middle fish or this is going to look like an empty tank with plants. Corys move around, but they are bottom primarily. Otos move around, but you really don't see them, i have five in one tank and have to hunt for them. S. nigriventris move around, but 3-4 isn't much activity mid-tank. And with either the hatchets or Pantodon, they are surface.

Mid-water fish I'm afraid takes you into characins (if not tetra, maybe pencilfish--there are some that swim at an angle, or some very colourful like the Coral Red), or rasbora.


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## Varkolak (Jun 9, 2012)

or pygmy corydora's they are a mid water schooler


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

I can't imagine that the butterflies will even know of the otos existence, let alone eat them.


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## AK Fresh Water (Jun 23, 2012)

Byron said:


> No issues, my only suggestion is you need some middle fish or this is going to look like an empty tank with plants. Corys move around, but they are bottom primarily. Otos move around, but you really don't see them, i have five in one tank and have to hunt for them. S. nigriventris move around, but 3-4 isn't much activity mid-tank. And with either the hatchets or Pantodon, they are surface.
> 
> Mid-water fish I'm afraid takes you into characins (if not tetra, maybe pencilfish--there are some that swim at an angle, or some very colourful like the Coral Red), or rasbora.


Rummy Nose Tetras are nice. I read that they like the lower 1/3 of the tank though. 
Neon/Cardnial Tetras are ok too, but I was hoping for something more unique.
Pencil Fish could work.

Celestial Pear Danios are nice too, but I don't know if they would nip at the Pantodon.
I like lots of gouramis, with pearls being my favorite.
I also like Glass Cats at lot, but I think they like a current in the water.


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## AK Fresh Water (Jun 23, 2012)

Byron said:


> No issues, my only suggestion is you need some middle fish or this is going to look like an empty tank with plants. Corys move around, but they are bottom primarily. Otos move around, but you really don't see them, i have five in one tank and have to hunt for them. S. nigriventris move around, but 3-4 isn't much activity mid-tank. And with either the hatchets or Pantodon, they are surface.
> 
> Mid-water fish I'm afraid takes you into characins (if not tetra, maybe pencilfish--there are some that swim at an angle, or some very colourful like the Coral Red), or rasbora.


Rummy Nose Tetras are nice. I read that they like the lower 1/3 of the tank though. 
Neon/Cardnial Tetras are ok too, but I was hoping for something more unique.
Pencil Fish could work.

Celestial Pear Danios are nice too, but I don't know if they would nip at the Pantodon.
I like lots of gouramis, with pearls being my favorite.
I also like Glass Cats a lot, but I think they like a current in the water.


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## AK Fresh Water (Jun 23, 2012)

Weird.
Double post. I didn't refresh the page or anything. :shock:


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

AK Fresh Water said:


> Rummy Nose Tetras are nice. I read that they like the lower 1/3 of the tank though.
> Neon/Cardnial Tetras are ok too, but I was hoping for something more unique.
> Pencil Fish could work.
> 
> ...


Yes, cardinals and rummys are lower half. Celestials are not advisable, this species is best alone as it mentions in the profile. Gourami, a trio of Honey (1 male, 2 female). At 5 inches, Pearl G needs more space.


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## AK Fresh Water (Jun 23, 2012)

Byron said:


> Yes, cardinals and rummys are lower half. Celestials are not advisable, this species is best alone as it mentions in the profile. Gourami, a trio of Honey (1 male, 2 female). At 5 inches, Pearl G needs more space.


What about Glass Cats? Would they work?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

AK Fresh Water said:


> What about Glass Cats? Would they work?


I would want them in a larger tank. If you read the profile, it says they need a central swimming area with a gentle current, but they also need very quiet water to just "sit." This is achievable in 3-foot and larger tanks with the right filter, but in a small tank not so easy.


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## AK Fresh Water (Jun 23, 2012)

Byron said:


> I would want them in a larger tank. If you read the profile, it says they need a central swimming area with a gentle current, but they also need very quiet water to just "sit." This is achievable in 3-foot and larger tanks with the right filter, but in a small tank not so easy.


Oh sorry. I did read it, but I guess I skimmed some areas.


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