# HELP! my fish are getting beat up!



## LOUIE ACES (Apr 14, 2009)

I seem to have acquired an addiction to buying the newest, most attractive arrivals to my local fish store. the problem is I might have over stocked my tank with what I was told were all "community" fish. Here's what I have so far:
1 Black Ghost Knife Fish - 5 in.
1 Glass Knife Fish - 2 in.
1 Albino Rainbow Shark - 3 in.
1 Redtail Shark - 1 in.
2 Blue Rams - 1 in. each
3 Angelfish - 1 in. each
1 Loricaria Catfish - 3 in.
1 Farlowella Catfish - 3 in.
1 Striped Raphael Catfish - 2 in.
1 Leopard Pleco - 2 in.
1 Clown Pleco - 1 in.

I have a 30 gallon freshwater tank set up with multiple caves, plants, and rocks for hiding spots. I purchased the 2 rams together hoping they would only fight each other because I know they get territorial but they're still very little so I thought it wouldn't happen for a while. Same with the sharks. I had neons but the BGKF seems to have eaten them because they're all gone. My main concern is my angels because they are the ones getting ripped up...fins all mangled and one lost an eye. Is there any one specific problem I have or am I overstocked?

Thanks for any help you can give me!


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

The BGK, both sharks, the leopard pleco get too big for that tank. You need to get a MUCH bigger tank or take them back. The 30gal is still over stocked, you have alot of fish in there that will hit 6-7" (all the catfish, the clown pleco, and the glass knife fish). Generally the for beginners it is suggested 1" of fish per gallon. You count the adult lenght not the current lenght. 

Also, as you have found. there are going to be aggresion problems in your tank with the fish you have. Many will get eaten as some of your monsters grow. The BGK is probably eyeing your angles, rams, and the other 1" fish.... Don't be too suprised if you turn on the lights one morning and some are missing.


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## DragonFish (Mar 31, 2009)

Definitely agree with the above advice, though I'm not sure sure about the 1" per gallon rule, a lot more things should be taken into account then just size such as activity level and aggression. Especially in a beginners case.

Both Knife Fish will get much to big for your current tank and I believe require something along the lines of a 75+ gallon tank, not to mention they're aggressive. Also, two sharks shouldn't be kept in the same aquarium period, and they require 50+ gallons. Unless you plan to upgrade in the VERY near future, I'd take both back and if I were you definitely take both Knife Fish. 
Rams also require very different conditions from what I have read and understand and are VERY sensitive to water parameters, not recommended for beginners or new aquariums. And two males will fight. I'd take them both back as well. 
Also, what are your tank demotions? Angels need taller tanks as opposed to longer and if you don't end up with a pair.....well, come breeding age it'll be very bad. Even if you do have a pair the odd one out will get picked on and likely die. If you plan to upgrade to a 40-50 gallon at some point, I's keep just one Angel and take the others back.......unless your keen on babies. Then you should upgrade to a 55 gallon, see if any pair off, return the odd one out, and then prepare for many little Angels. If no upgrading but REALLY like your Angels....pick your favorite and return the other two, but plan for a home when your last one starts getting too big.
I don't know much about catfish, but it looks like all save for the clown pleco will get too large, so I'd return them too....
Now your practically starting over again fish-wise, but its for the best. If I were you I'd now go to the magic google machine and begin researching some smaller, more peaceful community fish. I'd probably go with a single centerpiece fish, something like a Dwarf gourami(permitted all three Angels go, if not this skip this)that max out at around 3"(love those guys and kept one per tank are usually very peaceful)and then a small school of some sort of tetra, 6-7 would do I think for a 30 gallon. And remember, research and don't listen to the people at pet stores. 9/10 times they're very wrong 
If you can't take your fish back, Craigslist is always an option. You can sell or give them away, but they should go.

I hope this helps, anyone is welcome to correct any info I've got wrong here xD


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## LOUIE ACES (Apr 14, 2009)

thanks guys for the quick responses and i have a response for your very valuable info...

i was fully aware that the fish i purchased will get big. i do plan on upgrading to a 55 or ideally a 75 gallon tank around september. this is why i wasn't necessarily concerned of the size of the fish for right now. the mixture of types is more what i'm concerned about. everyone told me the blue rams were peaceful but it seems like they're the most aggressive fish i have (with the exception of the BGKF which i knew would eat the tetras but i was ok with it). 

my albino has been with my angels since they were all introduced together and they never fought. but it does have its cat and mouse games with the redtail. i'm going to the pet store today to buy some more plants. i'm hoping this will give another territory for them to share to cut down on chasing. 

i also have a 45 gallon hexagon tank with some cichlids in it so if the cats get too big for my other tank i'm going to let them possibly share that space or trade them in but they're way too small for me to even think about that now. 

plus correct me if i'm wrong but if i have bottom feeders, they won't really bother with the middle and top feeders right? my whiptails are never in anyone's way and the striped raphael hides all day. the plecos suck on the glass and rocks all day...really i think all i have to worry about is the sharks, angels, rams, and ghosts....


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## DragonFish (Mar 31, 2009)

Ahh, I see. Good to know you plan on upgrading, so then comes down to the mix as you are asking which isn't so great IMO. Blue Rams, from what I've heard, are peaceful but the males tend to get aggressive and territorial with one another and sometimes other tank mates. Never had them, but this is what I've heard. I'd still take them back though.

I'd still take back the BGKF as well if I were you and wouldn't put the cats in the 45 hex, not enough room for a large bottom dweller at all IMO. If you end up going for the 55, I would take back the Raphael if I were you. Thats quite a few bottom dwellers. If your going for the 75 then I think you'd probably be OK, but I still think that you have a few too many bottom dwellers.
When moving I'd probably leave the Clown Pleco in the 30 gallon, but thats just me.

No matter what, pick your fav of the two sharks and take the other one back. I did a lot of research on this back when I was thinking about getting one, two in any tank is a disaster waiting to happen. They're small now, but when they reach maturity there will be a lot more then just chasing. They are also likely to become aggressive towards your other bottom dwellers, hints why I say I think you may have a few to many. I wouldn't really worry too much about them with Angels though, as the Shark is more of a bottom level while an Angel is a topish dweller.

Most bottom feeders won't bother your other fish, there are a few that can get aggressive though apart from the Sharks, from my understanding, you should be okay aggression-wise. The big issue really I think is floor space and such.


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## Fishin Pole (Feb 17, 2009)

the current tank they are in is just to small for even all the bottom feeders and thats if you get rid of the fish fore mentioned in earlier posts.......Its just a wrong combination of fish for the size tank and the species you are keeping...Adding plants wil be good for your water parameters, but its not gonna stop aggression in a 30 gallon.....you need to rehome ALOT of these fish or step up to a 100 or larger and waiting till September isnt gonna be an option....Some of these fish wont be around if you wait till September


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

A 75 gal is the minimum for a BGK, that fish will get over a foot long.



LOUIE ACES said:


> with the exception of the BGKF which i knew would eat the tetras but i was ok with it).


......:|

BTW how old is this tank and what are your water parameters. (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, ph, and temp)


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## LOUIE ACES (Apr 14, 2009)

ammonia, nitrites, nitrates etc. are all healthy and under control; i do 20-25% water changes weekly religiously; stress coat and new tropical fish salt every water change. temp i keep at 80-82; i have a bubble wall to keep the water oxygenated; so from what everyone is telling me, if i had to get rid of a few, i would let the clown pleco go and the loricaria whiptail go. i can't see myself parting with the others...they really set a great diversity in the community. i really wanna believe you tell me this size tank won't last a few months but from my experience in the past 6 months of having these fish, they haven't grown dramatically. it might be just the life stage they're in but i really see them making it a few months with the size tank i have them in right now. will adding a bunch of new hiding places and rearranging the tank every week solve my aggression problem till i upgrade to the bigger tank?


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## DragonFish (Mar 31, 2009)

I still stand by my previous advice and the advice of Fishin Pole and Mikaila31, up to you whether you want to follow it or not but your combo of fish just won't work. You've already witnessed some aggression, this will only escalate with time and you'll likely end up loosing most of these fish in the end, and probably a few before you get a chance to upgrade if you don't take action now.
Its computability you should be worried about, not dramatic fish growth within a few months time, and again its just not a very good combo. :/


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

LOUIE ACES said:


> ammonia, nitrites, nitrates etc. are all healthy and under control; i do 20-25% water changes weekly religiously; stress coat and new tropical fish salt every water change. temp i keep at 80-82; i have a bubble wall to keep the water oxygenated; so from what everyone is telling me, if i had to get rid of a few, i would let the clown pleco go and the loricaria whiptail go. i can't see myself parting with the others...they really set a great diversity in the community. i really wanna believe you tell me this size tank won't last a few months but from my experience in the past 6 months of having these fish, they haven't grown dramatically. it might be just the life stage they're in but i really see them making it a few months with the size tank i have them in right now. will adding a bunch of new hiding places and rearranging the tank every week solve my aggression problem till i upgrade to the bigger tank?


I'm just telling you how to keep your fish healthy and happy. It seems like you only want to keep them (and forgo proper care) because they make the tank look nice:|. A lot of your fish are young given there size. You do realize that in six months many of them should of grown quite a bit. For example, I bought a bunch of German blue rams at an auction about 6 months ago they were fry at .25", currently they are almost 1.75" long and have bred already. The fact that your fish are not growning shows something is wrong. Fish kept in tank that is too small or too crowded will not grow properly, it is called stunting. Stunting causes internal problems and stresses the fish, it shortens there lifespan a great deal and makes them susceptible to illness. You have semi-agressive fish. They NEED room. In such a small tank territories are going to be tight, so they will be constantly bickering and harassing each other. This adds more stress and a greater chance of disease. Sure they may live till you upgrade the tank, but they will have a shorter life to live out in it.

Also from the care you gave me (not much) there are a lot of things you need to change. First, what are water par., "healthy and under control" does not mean anything. What are they in PPM? Also STOP using the salt and do some more research on proper care, 1/2 the fish you have are sensitive to salt or should just not be kept with it. Turn the temp down, again compatibility comes into play. The plecos, cats, and knife should be kept 76-78 IMO. The rams and angles should be closer to 80-82. 

As with dragonfish, I stand by what I previously said. Get rid of most of them, get a 75gal tank, then go buy some of the same species.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Personally I feel the fish are not particularly pleased with the enviornment they are in but hey,, They didn't have any say in the matter. The whiptail, Farlowella,striped raphael,Angelfish,rams,and plecos will all suffer with weekly addition of aquarium salt. They may not show symptoms of suffering for some time, but eventually the salt content of the water will affect their osmoregulatory functions. Salt does not evaporate or dissipate in the aquarium and with weekly addition of salt, well,,, there will be no need for worry about the fish getting too large for I suspect many will become sick and perhaps die as a result. None of the fish mentioned tolerate salt for any prolonged period of time,and some of them ,, not at all.

I see Mikaila, has beaten me to the punch in regards to use of salt .


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## Shadowcat0789 (Feb 2, 2009)

Just adding my two cents, I've got an African Knife fish and discovered through research that many knife fish produce a very very weak electrical current that they use to locate their prey, similar to a bat's echo location and as such, two knife fish shouldn't be kept together because they will confuse each other's "sonar" if you will. Now I may be wrong about the GKF but if it is a true knife fish then it should follow that same pattern. If you notice, that's what those two 'feeler' like projections on the front of their mouth are for.


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## LOUIE ACES (Apr 14, 2009)

ok so i took out the glass knife and a ram. it looks like my angels haven't gotten kicked around since. i guess i can part with the clown pleco and the loricaria since those are my least favorite. also, just a question, but i've heard that slight overcrowding could cut down on aggression. obviously that could be the root to my problem so was i just missinformed? 

as far as the salt is concerned, i only use the recommended dosage to keep a healthy status and only add the equivalent to the amount of new water i add during the water changes so the salt level is never going up or down


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## Fishin Pole (Feb 17, 2009)

overstocking to cut down on aggression was mainly for african cichlid tanks...........After raising them for close to 20 years, i think that overcrowding for aggression is a crock...............IMO, all that does is stress the fish out even more and lead me to believe the more docile fish will still get picked on............Overcrowding a tank leads to more water issues and more frequent water changes

You said about the recommended dosage of salt.....Who is recommending you put salt in your tank?.........Brackish tanks require salt, but putting it in a freshwater tank for no reason isnt wise in my opinion.........IMO, salt should only be used as a medication aid for ich..............Even for some species with ich, its still very harmful to their internal organs............


Your opening title for this thread was" Help!, my fish are getting beat up".........a bunch of very knowledgable members gave you good advice on what you need to do to combat the situation your tank is in........I'm sorry if the info provided wasnt wht you wanted to hear, but they are correct in their thinking......We gave you info to stop the aggression in your tank...........


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## DragonFish (Mar 31, 2009)

Your on the right track, but I would still get rid of a lot more then that, including(thought not limited to)the other ram, your BGKF, and one of your sharks. The Clown Pleco is actually the one that I would keep if I were you and perhaps one more bottom dweller, probably the Loricaria even. Again, standing by my previous advice.
I'm a fan of under stocking, so don't have experience in the over stocking area....

I agree totally and fully with the what others said as well, especially Mikaila31. I cannot add anything to the stunting advice as I am unfamiliar experience-wise with the growth rate of the species of fish you have apart from the Angels. But what size were the Angels when you purchased them? My Angel I got around....oh, 3 months ago at about 2" and since then he as at _least_ doubled in size. Since most angels I see are sold, at their smallest, around dime sized, this worries me that in 6 months they haven't grown very much at all. I don't know, perhaps mine was a quick grower or its just to stage of life he is is, but none the less....

As for the salt, I definitely agree it shouldn't be added. Instead, get yourself some water conditioner(someone else can recommend a good brand). Catfish and Plecos especially will greatly suffer with the addition of any salt. IMO, Salt shouldn't be added to any fresh water aquarium(they aren't called 'Fresh Water' for nothing ;-) ) unless your treating for something like Ich and even then I'd look up every other alternative.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LOUIE ACES said:


> ok so i took out the glass knife and a ram. it looks like my angels haven't gotten kicked around since. i guess i can part with the clown pleco and the loricaria since those are my least favorite. also, just a question, but i've heard that slight overcrowding could cut down on aggression. obviously that could be the root to my problem so was i just missinformed?
> 
> as far as the salt is concerned, i only use the recommended dosage to keep a healthy status and only add the equivalent to the amount of new water i add during the water changes so the salt level is never going up or down


On the overcrowding/aggression issue, previous replies have been completely accurate--overcrowding does absolutely nothing good but plenty bad. In your defence, perhaps you were thinking of shoaling fish that have bullying behaviours; it is true that when kept in larger groups these behaviours are lessened from what they can be with one or two or three fish. But this is not overcrowding, it is keeping a more-natural number of the particular species together in a shoal and in a properly-sized aquarium. When this is done, agression or bullying among the males is often lessened.

On the salt, again the others are correct. There was an excellent article by Laura Muha in the December 2006 issue of TFH that dealt with tanks size vs growth rate in freshwater tropical fish, and she conferred with a number of leading ichthyologists, biiologists and experienced aquarists across America in collecting the scientifically-proven facts she presents in that article. I'm not going into the specifics that salt and overcrowding cause, but both are highly detrimental and the source of a number of internal diseases, other health issues and even behavioural problems. Don't use salt, period.

A successful community aquarium--and successful means the fish are healthy, free of stress and exhibiting their natural colours and behaviours as best as possible--requires that the fish in the tank have basically the same requirements concerning water parameters (temperature, pH, hardness, salnity) and their environment (plants, wood, rock, caves...whatever) and have compatible behaviours. When the fishes preferred environment is provided, they will have much less stress and practically no health issues and reward the keeper with fascinating behaviours according to their biological programming. All of us have a responsibility to provide this for the fish.


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

WOW...... After watching the video of this tank in another thread, it appears all your tanks are just as badly stocked as this one if not worse. 

You wrote this as your stocking about 2 weeks ago.... all your tanks need some drastic upgrades and reorganizing if you want the majority of these fish to live for any extended time. Edit: I'm also guessing you don't test the water, since you are not posting stats.

30 Gallon:
1 Black Ghost Knife Fish
1 Glass Knife Fish
1 Albino Rainbow Shark
3 Assorted Veil Tail Angelfish
2 German Blue Ram Cichlids
1 Neon Tetra
1 Loricaria Whiptail Catfish
1 Farlowella Whiptail Catfish
1 Clown Pleco
1 Striped Raphael Catfish

45 Gallon Hexagon:
1 Venustus
1 Kenyi
1 Red Zebra
1 White Zebra
1 Aulonocara Blue Gold
1 Electric Blue
1 Melanochromis Auratus
1 Hi Fin Butterfly Catfish
1 Spotted Raphael Pleco

10 Gallon:
1 Calico Fantail Goldfish
1 Calico Ryukin Goldfish
1 Black Moor Goldfish
1 Red/White Ryukin
1 Angelfish
1 Rainbow Shark
1 Black Mollie


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## goldenfish112 (Jun 24, 2009)

BKG is a perfect community fish ....I think the plecos are responsible for all the beatings


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## LOUIE ACES (Apr 14, 2009)

ok i've got a lot of responses.....

the salt is definitely out from now on. thank you all. i only added it with water changes because it says on the box "maintains healthy aquarium and prevents disease and sickness". i thought a small recommended dosage was recommended. also the overcrowding advice is very helpful. again, thanks.

as far as not checking my water conditions, you assumed, and you assumed wrong. i check my water conditions weekly. i'm sorry i may not be as seasoned to fish care as you "professionals" but i feel i do the best i can and i am constantly trying to learn something i don't know about (the salt) so don't come at me like i'm an ignorant abusive fish owner.

the cichlid tank i bought entirely AS IS and the previous owner said all those fish lived together all their lives and were happy together. the 10 gallon tank, all those fish are very small and i'm still working on moving them around. 

and yes i did title the thread "help my fish are getting beat up" and yes i'm taking all the advice i get. however i hate to buy fish just to return them. i really like the fish i got and enjoy watching them and plus i would lose all that money bc the store won't give me jack sh*t for them. so if i could avoid losing the money and keeping the fish that i bought bc i wanted them, then it's gonna take me an extra day or so to think it over. thanks

to all that are posting positive advice and supportive criticism, thank you and i'm listening and trying to do the best to provide good homes for my fish


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

LOUIE ACES said:


> and yes i did title the thread "help my fish are getting beat up" and yes i'm taking all the advice i get. however i hate to buy fish just to return them. i really like the fish i got and enjoy watching them and plus i would lose all that money bc the store won't give me jack sh*t for them. so if i could avoid losing the money and keeping the fish that i bought bc i wanted them, then it's gonna take me an extra day or so to think it over. thanks
> 
> to all that are posting positive advice and supportive criticism, thank you and i'm listening and trying to do the best to provide good homes for my fish


Before you buy any fish the number one thing is that you need to research it. This solves many problems before they happen. Also don't take LFS advice.

The only option you have is looking for a 100gal + tank if you want to keep those fish, and you need to do it sooner than September. You may not get any $ for the fish if you give them back to the store. But you may still lose them anyway, so the best thing for the fish is to give them up. Also Have you asked the store? If you tell them the bad advice they gave you and you want to return the fish, they may let you. If not b*tch at them and don't go back to that store as they are clearly in it only for profit. Also some stores take fish in at a fraction of what they sell them. Most of the ones around here give 1/3 the cost of retail, at least that way you can get some of your cash back.


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

I forgot to mention, most stores will only give refunds or pay for fish with store credit, don't expect to actually get money back.


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## LOUIE ACES (Apr 14, 2009)

ok thanks to all the steady advice and constant heckling, i finally got myself a 75 gallon fish tank today!!! I'm so excited! now i have some more questions, 

I have my 10 gallon goldfish tank and my 30 gallon tropical tank, all matured and stocked with fish. I put the 10 gallon tank water with the fish in the 75 gallon tank along with 30 gallons of treated water (i did this to cycle my 30 gallon faster and it worked great). how long should it take to cycle the 30 gallons? (keeping in mind that i am also planning on adding the 30 gallons from the 30 gallon tank so i really only have to cycle 30 gallons of water being added to 40 gallons of cycled, matured water.)

what's the cheapest but best type of filter i should get for such a large aquarium? hang over the top or big canister that goes under the tank? i know the canisters are way more expensive and i've been using the hang over's for my other tanks...any preferences?

anything i should be aware of when dealing with a big set up that i didnt have to do with the smaller ones?

thanks so much guys for the push to get the bigger tank...i love it already and it's not even set up yet.


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

You don't need to move the water at all. The water doesn't cycle or mature, it is the filter that does that. Take the sponges from your current tank and put them in the filter of the 75gal. If they are filter inserts w/ a plastic thing inside rip the plastic thing out and just use the sponge. Fit it in the filter for the 75gal in a way that the water moves through it. If done properly this should instantly cycle the 75gal for what ever fish were in the original tank. EI. you take the 10gal media and the 75gal will handle the bioload of the fish in the 10gal without cycling. 

Canister all the way on that tank, you can't get away with HOBs on a tank that big, also get a filter rated for at least 100gal tank. Petsmart SOMETIMES price matches, even online site prices. I would suggest trying it, I haven't done it in a while so not sure if they still do it. They never openly advertise it. Look at what canisters they have, search online for a cheap price on one of the canisters they carry. Print off the webpage and take it in to the store, ask for the pricematch at the register. Normally you can cut their price by about 50%. Let me know if it works!


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## LOUIE ACES (Apr 14, 2009)

my old filters didnt have sponges. they were the crappy aqueon filters. i went out yesterday and bought two brand new aqua clear filters, a 110 for the 75 gallon tank, and a 70 for the 45 hex...used the price match idea and it worked. i got both for almost half price! i went with the HOB's also because i dont have hundreds of dollars for canister filters and the guy in the store said it would work as long as i went for the one that would go to a bigger tank.

and i decided to move the water and i'm glad i did because as soon as i started transfering the fish, they all started rising to the top. one of my angels was lying on the bottom of the tank barely moving. but once i put the water from the 30 gallon in the 75, everybody returned to status. tap water has a lot of bad chemicals in it so i know you have to cycle it at least a little bit.


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## LOUIE ACES (Apr 14, 2009)

now my fish seem to have ick. i see my royal pleco, clown pleco, farlowella, and blue ram all have the little white dots. i read that if you increase the temp to 82-84 degrees and add salt that it should kill the ick so that's what i did. should i leave the system the way it is for a certain amount of time now or do a water change and add more salt with the new water? i know i'll have to do a water change soon so i'm not sure if i should just leave it or what?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LOUIE ACES said:


> now my fish seem to have ick. i see my royal pleco, clown pleco, farlowella, and blue ram all have the little white dots. i read that if you increase the temp to 82-84 degrees and add salt that it should kill the ick so that's what i did. should i leave the system the way it is for a certain amount of time now or do a water change and add more salt with the new water? i know i'll have to do a water change soon so i'm not sure if i should just leave it or what?


The ick outbreak is due to the stress the fish are under from being in a tank that is not cycled. You cannot cycle a tank with old water, as Mikaila31 said. And even if you transfer bacteria via filter media or gravel, it still has to multiply in the new tank to handle the ammonia produced by the fish. When you put the fish in the new tank it created considerable ammonia and the bacteria is insufficient (if there was any at all, again, it does not travel in water but only on solid objects) to handle it. It takes 5-9 days for nitrosomonas bacteria (the one that handles ammonia to nitrite) to establish itself, and then 4-8 days for the nitrospira bacteria (the nitrite to nitrate) to establish. Sometimes this will hapen over 2-3 weeks, sometimes up to 8 weeks, due to all sorts of things.

Stress weakens a fish's immune system and it is very common to see an outbreak of ick as a result of stress. Raising the temp is fine, and many advocate the salt treatment. I would caution use of salt with farlowella and rams as they are very sensitive to salt and chemicals. Copper-based treatments are also risky with these fish. I have used Aquari-Sol with farlowella and no sign of stress (it did show stress with another copper-based remedy, can't remember which one). It's up to you whether you stick with the salt treatment or something else like Aquari-Sol. But on no account should you mix remedies without a substantial water change; they can sometimes interact, plus it is only adding further to the fish's stress.

Partial water changes should occur as usual, but the medication (whether salt or other) has to be replenished because the water change weakens it strength. With ich the treatmnt must be continued for a week (some advocate longer) in order to ensure the parasite is dealt with. It can only be attacked during the free swimming stage, which is during the 72 hours after the cysts that drop off the fish (the white "spots") rupture and release them. Also, some always seem to get through the defense.

I've never used the salt treatment so I'll leave it for those who have to comment on how often it must be renewed, with or without water changes. With Aquari-Sol and similar meds, daily for one week is usual. I have more than once cured ich with five days of Aquari-Sol treatment and not lost any fish.


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## LOUIE ACES (Apr 14, 2009)

thanks. should i worry about the ammonia build up being drastic within these next couple of days? or do i have a few days until i should worry about levels spiking? i thought about doing a water change today or tomorrow just in case but like you said, the salt and bateria levels that i have will be deminished even further if i do.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LOUIE ACES said:


> thanks. should i worry about the ammonia build up being drastic within these next couple of days? or do i have a few days until i should worry about levels spiking? i thought about doing a water change today or tomorrow just in case but like you said, the salt and bateria levels that i have will be deminished even further if i do.


A partial water change that only removes water and replaces it will not remove bacteria, there is none in the water to speak of. But it would weaken the salt or any meds.

If the tank is going through the normal cycle the ammonia will spike, then the nitrite, over a period of 2 or more weeks. As there are fish in the tank, I would dose the tank with "Cycle" or "Stress Zyme" which are biological preparations completely safe to use, and they assist the formation of the bacteria and relieve stress on the fish. Daily partial water changes will dilute the ammonia or nitrite when your tests show it is high. Use a good water conditioner with all changes, one that also detoxifies ammonia would be best in this scenario.


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## LOUIE ACES (Apr 14, 2009)

it looks like the fish are getting ick, then it goes away, then they have it again...i have the temp up at 82 and i added the salt. did i miss something?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LOUIE ACES said:


> it looks like the fish are getting ick, then it goes away, then they have it again...i have the temp up at 82 and i added the salt. did i miss something?


Can you describe this better? It is not possible for ich to "go away" and then return in a day or two, it would still be there if it is ich. It may be something else.

If you could be exact as to the spots (one or two, or several; on one fish or more; on the fins or the body or both, small or large...), when they first appeared (date), when they "went away" (all of them?), and when they reappeared (and how many, which fish, etc).


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## LOUIE ACES (Apr 14, 2009)

its lots of little white specs, almost like paint splatter, all over the bodies and tails/fins. i first saw it on my farlowella, royal pleco, clown pleco and blue ram. the blue ram and farlowella died. the others seem to beat the ick in a day or two. but then within another day or two, the white specs were back. i kept the temp at 82, did a water change today and added cycle and stress coat. should i add more salt or ick medicine?


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## LOUIE ACES (Apr 14, 2009)

it's little white dots, almost like paint splatters, covering the body and tail and fins. i saw the blue ram, farlowella, royal pleco, and clown pleco with them. it happened after i moved everybody to the 75 gallon tank. they got the dots, then i rose the temp to 82 and added salt. the blue ram and farlowella died. i did a water change today and added cycle and stress coat and kept the temp at 82 because it looks like the royal, who showed signs of getting better bc the dots went away after a day or two, now has the dots again after a day or two of looking healthy.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I know it is contrary to what some other members hold, but I would not use salt with sensitive fish. And Farlowella and rams are sensitive fish, as are corys and most characins. I never use salt with these, never.

Sounds like it might be velvet not ich, but I'm not sure. In either case, as it seems to be parasitic, I would use Aquari-Sol. I have cured velvet, ich and an unknown parasite with Aquari-Sol. It claims to be suitable for sensitive fish, and in my experience it produces much less stress on the afore-mentioned fish that other copper-based remedies. It is used along the same line: raise the temp to 82 (the Farlowella might have found this hard, I lost one due to a temp rising to 85 overnight) and treat each day until the spots are gone. I usually use it for 6-7 days, once 5 days worked. Make sure you do a substantial water change before using different medications if the last treatment is still in the water.


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## Herky (Apr 23, 2009)

DragonFish said:


> Angels need taller tanks as opposed to longer



I've never heard this before. Why is taller better?


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## LOUIE ACES (Apr 14, 2009)

thanks byron. that aquari-sol is working, at least on my royal pleco. i've been using it for 3 days now and the ick has disappeared from him but it's still on my tetra's and majorly on my clown pleco. do you know of a max amount of days i should use it before stopping as not to overdose my healthy fish? and once i see that the ick has come off of all my fish, do i still need to treat the tank for a few days or just stop?


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## Phastanscottsage (Jun 29, 2009)

If you are looking for a good canister filer for you 75g I just recently purchased a Rena xp3 for my 75g from this website.. remember more filtration the better so buy the biggest you can for your tank.

Canister aquarium filter – fish tank filters and equipment online


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LOUIE ACES said:


> thanks byron. that aquari-sol is working, at least on my royal pleco. i've been using it for 3 days now and the ick has disappeared from him but it's still on my tetra's and majorly on my clown pleco. do you know of a max amount of days i should use it before stopping as not to overdose my healthy fish? and once i see that the ick has come off of all my fish, do i still need to treat the tank for a few days or just stop?


I agree, one should not add medication unless absolutely necessary because it does affect all fish in varying degrees, and there can be side issues with the bioilogical cycle, etc. But having said that, you do have a parasite and it has to be got rid of. The parasite cycle lasts 4-5 days so the treatment has to cover this period. Assuming this is ich (or similar parasite) the "spots" you see fall off the fish and break open to release dozens of parasites looking for host fish. It is only at this stage that they can be killed by the medication, and this stage lasts up to 72 hours (3 days).

I have used Aquari-Sol for 6 consecutive days (12 drops per 10 gallons I think is the dosage on the label) and it has always worked. I have sometimes noted new spots during the first 3-4 days, so some parasites seem to get through the screen, but after 6 days of treatment I do a partial water change and so far it has been successful. Even if I saw a spot or two after 6 days, I would cease. Fish are normally able to fight off ich if their immune systems are healthy.


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## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

Herky said:


> I've never heard this before. Why is taller better?


Angelfish are tall fish and need more height in a tank. With their tall dorsal and anal fins they can get to about 6-8" tall. A tank of at least 18" in height is recommended.


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## LOUIE ACES (Apr 14, 2009)

ok i'm on day 5 today and i have seen great improvement with both my plecos. my tetras however still have spots. they're cheap so i'm thinking of just getting rid of them to prevent any risk of them spreading it bc my black ghost occassionally dines on them and i don't want him getting it. should i keep them or expose of them?

also, everybody talks about doing partial water changes, you mentioned a daily partial water change and then one after finishing using the aquari-sol. how much water are you talking about? i usually do a 20-30% change weekly. i can't do that daily though right?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LOUIE ACES said:


> ok i'm on day 5 today and i have seen great improvement with both my plecos. my tetras however still have spots. they're cheap so i'm thinking of just getting rid of them to prevent any risk of them spreading it bc my black ghost occassionally dines on them and i don't want him getting it. should i keep them or expose of them?
> 
> also, everybody talks about doing partial water changes, you mentioned a daily partial water change and then one after finishing using the aquari-sol. how much water are you talking about? i usually do a 20-30% change weekly. i can't do that daily though right?


On the pwc, i meant that I always do one after the treatment (actually it just works out that way, the treatment ends a day or two before the due pwc and I do it as usual). And I sometimes do one before I start rather than doing a pwc in the middle of a 5-6 day treatment which is diluting the treatment and when that occurs there is a chance a parasite or two may slip through the barrier. No need for daily pwc, which would be detrimental to the treatment (constantly diluting it). In regular times (no ich issue) no harm in a daily pwc but that's a lot of work; many discus keepers do daily pwc of 50+% regularly. The fish would love a daily pwc from the standpoiint of continually fresh water, but I don't think it is normally advisable solely from the practical side.

If the tetras still show spots, the ich is still in the tank (no way to tell if one may have just dropped off). I would treat for 7 days, 8 max. Then do a pwc and monitor. Once the fish are back to healthy, they can normally fight off ich. They get it from being stressed over something.


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## LOUIE ACES (Apr 14, 2009)

hey byron thanks man, it looks like the ick is gone. i dont see any more spots on any of my fish. but now i'm back to my original problem...my angels are getting their fins destroyed by something again...i'll give a list of all my stock and maybe i'm still overlooking something.

75 Gallon Tank:

5 assorted angelfish (3 of which veil tails)
1 black ghost knife fish
1 royal pleco
1 clown pleco
1 albino rainbow shark
1 rainbow shark
1 redtail shark
1 striped raphael catfish
1 loricaria whiptail catfish
12 neon tetras
1 pimelodella pictus catfish

i'm noticing that my leopard angel is looking great but three of my other angels are getting nipped and every day they look a little worse. now the beat up ones kind of hang around the top of the tank with their mouths pointed up when they used to swim around a lot more. any suggestions?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I have read that neons (and some other characins) will nip fins of angels, but more likely the angels will consider the neons food and eat them (when the angels are large enough). The knifefish is a natural predator; I have never kept one and don't know if it will fin nip, but being a predator it wouldn't surprise me. Myself, I would not keep a knifefish with any small fish (the neons will be food for the knifefish in time) nor something as sedate as angels.

The three different "sharks" would cause problems I would expect, as they are territorial. Don't suspect them of nipping fins, but they can be aggressive with conspecifics and the different sharks are closely related.

Some of the afore-mentioned aggression can be slightly reduced in large enough quarters, but the natural tendancy of these fish is as stated and the potential is always present.


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## LOUIE ACES (Apr 14, 2009)

wow you're right! i just researched it and neons are known fin-nippers. looks like it's time to say good bye to them. i figure i'll donate my rainbow shark to the local pet store too. hey btw, would it be too much to add a discus to the tank?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LOUIE ACES said:


> wow you're right! i just researched it and neons are known fin-nippers. looks like it's time to say good bye to them. i figure i'll donate my rainbow shark to the local pet store too. hey btw, would it be too much to add a discus to the tank?


I have been keeping SA fish for more than 15 years, and I have not yet ventured into discus. They are very sensitive to water parameters and quality. Many discus keepers do daily 50% water changes. I don't mean this is absolutely necessary, but it gives you an idea of how much work discus will be. And, they are very limited in terms of tankmates. Discus require much warmer water and only quiet fish as tankmates. Cardinal tetras do well, neons do not (too warm), and some corys (only those that can take the "heat" which not all corys can). Only the whiptail and pleco in your list would suit a discus environment.

I noticed I forgot the piuctus catfish before, I have read that they can be aggressive, so there is another possibile source of trouble.


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

Just a comment on the pictus as far as my experience. I keep one and have had one since he was a tiny three incher, he's now more than double that. I've never observed him being aggressive except for when a loach tries to enter his cave "area". His behavior is more "grumpy" than aggressive. When my barbs or rams venture into his territory he leaves them completely alone. It's as if he knows the difference between other bottom dwellers that may be competing with him. I've never seen my pictus nip, just chase, and he doesn't chase far. IMHO, I doubt a pictus would be interested in an angel. JMO, based on my experience. It may be that I happen to keep an exceptional pictus.  In your case I'd blame the tetras.


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## LOUIE ACES (Apr 14, 2009)

well i think this is the end to my problems. i donated the tetras to the pet store and picked up a few new angels and a clown loach. my tank is clearing up nicely and none of my fish seem to be taking on any more injuries. everyone seems much happier now! thanks to everybody who added input to help me fix my aquarium status! i'm sure i'll be talking to you guys sooner or later...


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LOUIE ACES said:


> well i think this is the end to my problems. i donated the tetras to the pet store and picked up a few new angels and a clown loach. my tank is clearing up nicely and none of my fish seem to be taking on any more injuries. everyone seems much happier now! thanks to everybody who added input to help me fix my aquarium status! i'm sure i'll be talking to you guys sooner or later...


Glad to hear things are resolving. I'm sorry to add a negative, but I would caution against the clown loach. While it won't bother the angels, it is a shoaling fish that does better in a small group so it will be "happier" and therefore healthier. However, they are large fish, growing to 12+ inches, and a 75g will not be adequate in the long term. You might want to return the clown loach and have a look at several of the loaches that are smaller adult (maximum 4-5 inches fully grown), all are shoaling (minimum 3 but 5-6 is OK in a 75g) and several of them are quite peaceful with each other as well as other fish in the tank (not all small loaches are). Here's a good site on loaches: Loaches Online - Community Edition — Loaches Online Or keep the angels happy with other SA bottom fish like corydoras and other small catfish (Farlowella are excellent algae eaters, as are whiptails) or one of the small pleco species.

Byron.


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## LOUIE ACES (Apr 14, 2009)

ok another question, i bought the clown loach because my cichlid tank has a snail infestation and it's getting to be overwhelming. so if i don't have adequate housing for the clown loaches, what are my other options to get rid of the snails other then chemicals? i want to stay away from adding chemicals to get rid of them so i was looking into buying a fish or maybe invertabrate but i also have to worry about my cichlids trying to eat them before they get to the snails.....


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

LOUIE ACES said:


> ok another question, i bought the clown loach because my cichlid tank has a snail infestation and it's getting to be overwhelming. so if i don't have adequate housing for the clown loaches, what are my other options to get rid of the snails other then chemicals? i want to stay away from adding chemicals to get rid of them so i was looking into buying a fish or maybe invertabrate but i also have to worry about my cichlids trying to eat them before they get to the snails.....


Other loaches will eat snails, some species more than others; I think that is one of the bits of info on each species in the link I posted previously. Of course, if you don't really want loaches other than for snail removal, that's different. Myself, I would not buy a fish solely to solve a snail problem.

Snails occur because conditions are right, both water chemistry and food. I have very soft tap water and keep it soft and slightly acidic in all my tanks, so pond snails do not last too long; they tend to lay eggs and hatch, but most don't survive due to calcium-low water (too soft, no minerals). Malaysian livebearers thrive (writers say they can adjust to differing water conditions better) which doesn't bother me because they meander through the substrate keeping it cleaner and better oxygen/nitrogen exchange so better for the aerobic/anaerobic bacteria process. They also colonize the filter chambers, so they must be a benefit on the biological cycle throughout the tank. If they became too many for my preference, I would simply remove them and out they go into the garden or compost (won't survive long out of water).

The other issue is food; if there is too much for them to eat, they will proliferate accordingly. So not overfeeding and regular maintainance all work to keep them within reason.

I would never add chemicals to a tank to rid it of snails (or algae). Many of these chemicals have other effects on the equilibrium and ultimately on the fish. The less stuff added to an aquarium the better for the biological equilibrium and the inhabitants. I believe copper is one mineral used in snail eradicators, and copper is deadly to fish above minimal amounts (plants need it, but in balance). One has to be careful.


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## LOUIE ACES (Apr 14, 2009)

yeah that's what i've been doing. they get so numerous that they end up being all over the bottom of the tank, on the glass and the decor, and i wind up scooping up the gravel to take some of them out maybe once a month but there's no way i can get to a good amount of them without taking all my decor out of my tank which i'm not about to do...

i guess i'll just keep doing that since you say they're a good indicator of a healthy aquarium. i knew they were a beneficial part of the system but just figured they were multiplying like crazy just because thats what they do.


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## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

You could try putting a couple lettuce leaves in a jar with a small enough opening that the fish won't be able to get in but the snails can. Put it in your tank and the next morning take it out and dispose of all the snails.


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## LOUIE ACES (Apr 14, 2009)

whoa cool idea. i'm gonna try that


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