# Trying my Luck in the Saltwater World



## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

Hey all,

I want to try my luck in a salt water tank -- maybe a micro reef right now, I want to try getting some coral
and some fish that would fit,

just 2-3 at the VERY most

1 Damsel (if possible -- I heard you cannot keep damsel's in a 10g, and it has to be at least 30)[any suggestions?]
1 yellow assessor
1 clown fish (either black and white or orange and white)
1 Coral (anything that will grow and flail in the tank - hence I will be buying live rock)
Live rock (no idea how much -- but I want enough where the fish can swim around and not hide from me all the time)


I just need some guidance:
1 - how to mix salt? (how much salt per gal)-(also can I use tap water -- I've heard it should be okay)
2 - I heard by just perchasing a water filter and sticking it with some green plants for saltwater and some carbon, I can simulate the nitrification cycle)
3 - power heads (1 koralia nano should do for a 10 gallon right?)
4 - how much sand?


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## Ozai (Nov 15, 2009)

If this is your first saltwater tank I would personally not suggest doing a nano (micro) version. In terms of saltwater tanks it is generally easier the more volume of water you have. Usually it is suggested to start with something like 75 gallons or more.

If you do a 10 gallon micro tank you do not even need a filter. You would just do lots of water changes, and the live rock and live sand will filter everything. A 10 gallon though you would only have 1-2 fish tops.

As per water, it is not acceptable to use tap water. It contains metals and harmful contaminants in it. You can use distilled water from the grocery store, or buy an R/O system, which in my opinion in the long term is the cheapest route. Mixing salt is fairly easy actually. We use an instrument called a hydrometer or a refractometer to measure the salinity of the water. Acceptable salinity runs from 1.021 to 1.025.

The filter system you are talking about is a refugium. You usually grow chaeto which is a macro algae. But again if your doing a 10 gallon setup you don't need one.

As for sand it is recommended that you either have under 1" or 4"-6" of sandbed.

It seems you have a bit more planning to do in terms of what you want to do, and what you are ready for.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Please know that the smaller the tank is the harder it is going to be to keep stable, and a 10 gallon tank will not allow you 3 fish, especially not those 3 types. Saltwater functions much differently than freshwater.

I am not familiar with the koralina nano filter, so I'm sorry, but I can't offer you any advice with that.

Saltwater must be premixed when using for a marine aquarium. Directions should be followed for what is on the container of marine salt, as the amount used will vary slightly from brand to brand. A hydrometer or refractometer will be needed to measure the spg/salinity in the water, so should be one of the first things you purchase before setting up the tank. 

Saltwater can be mixed in a rubbermaid container, a small garbage can (must be new and never have washed with soap or chemicals) and should have a powerhead and heater to mix and warm the water before use. Saltwater should be mixed for at least 48 - 72 hrs before using to make sure it is completely mixed and stable at the right spg/salinity and to be sure it is at the right temp to use for water changes.

I never suggest using tap water in a marine tank due to phosphate levels and heavy metals that are likely to be found in there and would be harmful to the tank & its inhabitants. RO/DI water is the safest to use for a marine tank. 

With live rock, typically 1 lb per gallon is average. There should be enough live rock to keep the tank cycled and balanced, and to provide enough room for the fish to hide easily to avoid stress. I noticed you mention you don't wish or enough live rock so as to allow the fish to hide from you all the time. Its important to know that all fish need to have the abilty to hide to avoid stres, which causes illness. The more rock/decor in an aquarium the more secure and safe a fish is going to feel, thus it will not "hide" as often as a fish that is feeling out in the open and stressed all the time. That applies in freshwater and marine situations both.


The average amount of sand to use in a marine tank is 1 lb/gallon. So, for a 10 gallon tank, 10 lbs of sand would be standard.

In regards to the nitrogen cycle... just as with freshwater, a tank must be cycled. The nitrogen cycle is the natural breakdown of waste, and it cannot be avoided. In a saltwater tank, the nitrogen cycle will typically take longer than with the average freshwater tank.

Since keeping a marine tank is completely new to you, I am going to strongly urge you to do some reading, buy some beginner's books BEFORE you attempt to set up your tank. This is not a hobby where you can just throw things together overnight and call it finished. Its a lot mroe complicated than that.

For a new 10 gallon set up, the things to expect to need are as follows:

Good filter, hang on is fine but be sure to keep everything well covered. Aquaclear and Aqueon filters work very well for saltwater provided they are maintained regularly to avoid damage from the salt/salt creep
Heater
thermometer
hydrometer/refractometer
live sand/aragonite sand
live rock
RO/DI water source/supply
test kits for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, and calcium
power head (for mixing water)
rubbermaid tub or garbage pail (for premixing saltwater)
siphon hose (for doing water changes)


When the tank is first set up, mix the water according to directions on the packaging. Hook up the filtration unit, heater, thermometer, and add the power head to help mix the salt quickly and thoroughly. Wait 48 hrs and then check spg/salinity with the hydrometer. Add more salt or more freshwater as needed until a target range of 1.023 - 1.025 is reached. Each additon of salt or freshwater should be given 24 - 48 hrs to mix before checking spg/saliity and then adjusting again if needed.

During this time the water should be heated to 76 degrees and hold stable.

*Only* *after* spg/salinity is in the right range, then add sand and rock. 48 hrs after adding sand and rock, again test spg/salinity, and then perform the following tests: ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, and calcium. The target calcium range for a marine/reef environment should read between 350 - 450. If the calcium is too low, you will need to purchase liquid calcium additive, which can be dosed in small amounts daily or weekly, depending on how much is needed... and then the level should be tested again after 24 hrs of each addition until the level stays stable. 

Live rock will need time to cure and will do the job of cycling your tank. If you work with live sand the cycling process is likely to take a bit less time. Average cycling for a new marine tank is 8 - 12 weeks. This can go faster or slower depending on your specific conditions, and should be tracked closely with the test kits. At the end of your cycle, the test results should read 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, nitrate under 20, pH 8.2 - 8.4 and stable.

All of this needs to happen *before *adding any fish or live animals to the tank. 

In a 10 gallon tank you will be limited to 5 - 7 blue leg hermits or 1 - 2 scarlet reef hermits
1 - 2 small snail species, such as astrea, nassarius, and margarita snails
1 small fish that stays small, such as an ocellaris clown or the yellow assessor (will need to pick one or the other, cannot have both)
1 smaller species of shrimp
coral options are limited and the amount of light & type of light over the tank will play a large part over which corals you will be able to grow. I can tell you that more than 3 different species of coral is unlikely to work in that size tank. Growth needs to be allowed for, and many corals cannot be too close to each other because they are known to attack each other, sting each other, destroy each other. Corals can be very territorial and each specific species has its own requirements. I can offer you some ideas of easy corals for a beginner with basic compaq fluorescent lighting... pulsing xenia, smoothe mushroom species, capnella, star polyps. Of planning to keep corals, especially in such a small tank, it is also a good idea to find an outlet ahead of time for over growth. When healthy these animals can grow and reproduce at a rapid rate, and if they get too crowded they will either harm each other or die. It is also a good idea to find some useful books and info about how to frag the specific corals you wish to keep, before you get them. They do not all frag the same way, and this will be important for keeping growth rates under control and not killing the animal in your attempts. 

You can find some good information to read before starting if you go here:
SW Gen Index

Please keep in mind that the average 10 gallon nano reef tank will need daily or every other day water changes. Different seasons and weather conditions will affect a 10 gallon tank much more and much faster than a larger tank, thus things like evaporation, temperature fluctuation, etc can be hard to control. 

Please do your homework well before you begin. I do not typically encourage a tank of less than 30 gallons for marine/reef systems for beginners.

Best of luck to you.


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## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

Ozai said:


> If this is your first saltwater tank I would personally not suggest doing a nano (micro) version. In terms of saltwater tanks it is generally easier the more volume of water you have. Usually it is suggested to start with something like 75 gallons or more.
> 
> If you do a 10 gallon micro tank you do not even need a filter. You would just do lots of water changes, and the live rock and live sand will filter everything. A 10 gallon though you would only have 1-2 fish tops.
> 
> ...


I do, I've dabbled and kept up with smaller aquariums, and now since my freshwater fish are decent -- I just want to move onto something smaller.

I would love a large aquarium, but no room so 10 gallon is probably my limit, maybe 14 at best



bettababy said:


> Please know that the smaller the tank is the harder it is going to be to keep stable, and a 10 gallon tank will not allow you 3 fish, especially not those 3 types. Saltwater functions much differently than freshwater.
> 
> I am not familiar with the koralina nano filter, so I'm sorry, but I can't offer you any advice with that.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the Advice, but I think as far as 10 gallons it should be okay. I just need some suggestions on what to put in a small aquaclear filter besides the media -- is there anything else I can place in there since I heard just leaving it empty or put at least a sponge filter in there would do.


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## wake49 (Jul 2, 2008)

It sounds like you have your heart set on doing a 10 gallon tank. 

I agree with both posters that this is indeed a challenge for even seasoned marine aquarists, let alone beginners. And I have heard on this forum (as well as other forums) that people with no fishkeeping experience are better off than people with Freshwater experience when it comes to starting marine tanks. All the kowledge you have about Freshwater tanks: forget it. It won't do you any good. For example, the basics for filtration in a saltwater tank are: Live Rock, Live Sand (preferably a 4-6" sand bed) and a Protein Skimmer (activated carbon will serve the same purpose in this size tank). The basic idea is this: Bacteria on the surface of the rock and sand convert ammonia into nitrites, then nitrites into nitrates. Anaerobic bacteria seeded deep within the rock and under the sand convert those nitrates into nitrogen gas, which leaves the system naturally. Filter pads that you normally use in freshwater do break ammonia down to nitrites, and nitrites to nitrates, but the process stops there. The system then becomes clouded with nitrates, which are a large contributor to nuisance algaes and also have an adverse effect on your buffering system.

Marine creatures are much more sensitive than their freshwater counterparts. As Dawn mentioned, large temperature swings (much more likely in a nano), large salinity swings (smaller tanks have faster evaporation rates) and water quality all become a huge issue with nano tanks. Reaction is not an option with a nano. Once something has gone bad, it's too late.

One Fish. Maybe a False Perc Clown, Watchman Goby or another small fish. But just one. Ten gallons is small for even one fish. With the corals and inverts, upkeep will be vital. 

We are not against you soing a nano. We would prefer if you get a little experience with a bigger tank first. We're just looking at the best interests for the fish involved...


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## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

wake49 said:


> It sounds like you have your heart set on doing a 10 gallon tank.
> 
> I agree with both posters that this is indeed a challenge for even seasoned marine aquarists, let alone beginners. And I have heard on this forum (as well as other forums) that people with no fishkeeping experience are better off than people with Freshwater experience when it comes to starting marine tanks. All the kowledge you have about Freshwater tanks: forget it. It won't do you any good. For example, the basics for filtration in a saltwater tank are: Live Rock, Live Sand (preferably a 4-6" sand bed) and a Protein Skimmer (activated carbon will serve the same purpose in this size tank). The basic idea is this: Bacteria on the surface of the rock and sand convert ammonia into nitrites, then nitrites into nitrates. Anaerobic bacteria seeded deep within the rock and under the sand convert those nitrates into nitrogen gas, which leaves the system naturally. Filter pads that you normally use in freshwater do break ammonia down to nitrites, and nitrites to nitrates, but the process stops there. The system then becomes clouded with nitrates, which are a large contributor to nuisance algaes and also have an adverse effect on your buffering system.
> 
> ...


that's understood -- you guys are just watching out for disasters and wallets. all the warnings are well appreciated. I'm going to look into something bigger, maybe a 29 or a 20 gallons, maybe doubling the size may help a bit -- bit I know I cannot go any bigger than a 20 gallon, 29 if I REALLLY try.


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## Ozai (Nov 15, 2009)

There are really good pre-made nano tank systems with saltwater filtration, and lighting built right into the tank. They come in various sizes usually 12, 24, and 29 gallons. Check them out maybe it is what you are looking for.

Top Pick Mini/Nano Aquarium Kits


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

You might want to google the 29 gallon biocube... I am running one so if you'd like a pic of one just check my photo album here...
That has turned out to be the easiest tank I own. You would still be limited to 1 - 2 very small fish species.. but the care and maintenance would be a lot easier, and easier to keep it stable.

Just a thought...


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## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

bettababy said:


> You might want to google the 29 gallon biocube... I am running one so if you'd like a pic of one just check my photo album here...
> That has turned out to be the easiest tank I own. You would still be limited to 1 - 2 very small fish species.. but the care and maintenance would be a lot easier, and easier to keep it stable.
> 
> Just a thought...


definitely understood -- but let's just say for example on a 29 gallon tank, and I pick that up.
what exactly do I need to be successful?
I want to just get maybe 3 fish -- 2x clown fish and a small damsel
am I going to be able to get some inverts for cleanup? what about anemonies or corals for the clowns, i want some color too
I just need the basics to get setup
also I need to know, gravel vacuum ? ever needed? am I going to need to disturb the sand since in fresh water it's recommended, I don't know about salt?
a lot of things are just maintenance related, but I just need the info to get the basics straight.

Here's what I know and what I found so far, if possible fill in the blanks? (This is taken into consideration that i'm throwing all my knowledge of freshwater out the window first -- so these are all as though I first started)

1. Need either x < 1" of sand or 4" of sand for the tank. (question: live or just normal sand is preferred?)

2. Need live rock to get this tank cycled(1lb per gallon) - 4 week process or more. (question: how much water changes are necessary and while it's doing a fishless cycle, how can I tell when the water is good for changing?)

3. For the fish stated in the tank, are they compatible? I want some inverts for cleanup as well (any recommendations?) and also 1 coral, nothing more than 1. (basically what would be the most I can put in here all included, and still be successful if I keep up with the waterchanges?

4. I know i'll be making more frequent water changes, i'll be buying all hang on back protein skimmer, I know there will need to be some filtration, is there anything else that I can use to help the filtration and also water movement? I was thinking with the hang on back skimmer, I'd also use a aquaclear filter.

lighting, I know i'll be using some type of compact florescent 50/50 daylight with actinic

anything else do I need to know before taking the plunge? I understand how hard it'll be, but i'm pretty determined, but not without the right info -- I did that with my freshwater, and I spent too much.

any info on equipment, routine, etc would be greatly appreciated. You guys are one of the best, that's why I came here.


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## willieturnip (Aug 30, 2009)

I'm currently setting up a 15 gallon nano with the help of several local experienced fish keepers. 

I'l be running a thread on the process imminently (the live sand bed, powerheads, heating and lighting is all done and I'm picking up all the live rock on tuesday) so if your in no particular rush you might as well just follow that?

A gravel vacuum shouldn't really be necessary as you'll have huge flow in the tank, disabling detritus from accumulating essentially. Anywhere from 15-40 times the volume per hour is recommended for a basic reef, depending on the type of corals you plan to keep.

There is no real limit on how many corals you have in the tank like you have with fish, as their bio load is virtually non existent. You just need to keep the essentials in check, such as lighting and calcium.

A skimmer is a nice touch, but actually not terribly necessary with the small volume of water. If you keep your changes up (30% ish a week) there's no real need for one. Having said that I plan to have a skimmer, algae scrubber and possibly a refuge too. Though the latter two, if not all three could possibly go out the window. 




Live sand is definitely preferred. With the size of the tank, there's no point skimping. With larger tanks, a mix of live and regular aragonite sand works well as the live seeds the "dead". 

Your filtration is the live rock. Believe it or not it's there for more reason other than to look pretty, which is probably why it's so expensive.

Power compacts are a popular choice for nano's.

Inverts (other wise often known as a clean up crew) are highly recommended. Things like turbo snails to clean the glass are sensational, as they all but eradicate manual glass cleaning. 

Anemones are actually very hard to keep alive for extended periods from what I hear and clownfish do NOT need them to survive as there are no natural predators in your tank. A long tentacle toadstool or a hairy mushroom might be better options. 


In my opinion all you need to be successful with a nano reef is:

- Good lighting (not bright to the eye necessarily, but bright in the right areas of the spectrum)
- RO water at the correct salinity (any traces of copper etc will destroy corals very quickly. Who knows what pipes your house water has com through!?)
- 1lb+ of live rock per gallon
- Live sand bed. Preferably under an inch or between 4 to 6 deep, but I have only heard this discussed on this forum and while I respect everybody's opinion on this forum, I feel a bit of bandwaggoning is at play..
- Patience and attention and sensibility towards the tank (this is by far the most important!!)


I'l link my build thread when it's up.


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## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

willieturnip said:


> I'm currently setting up a 15 gallon nano with the help of several local experienced fish keepers.
> 
> I'l be running a thread on the process imminently (the live sand bed, powerheads, heating and lighting is all done and I'm picking up all the live rock on tuesday) so if your in no particular rush you might as well just follow that?
> 
> ...



Thank you for your opinions as well as facts, this will definitely help me want to attempt this.

I've decided on a 20 gallon tank, and with the 20 gallons, I have to let you know, that there's not going to be much except a protein skimmer and/or an aquaclear filter with most likely just some carbon inside just to help with clearing the water.

my biggest question with this is, even though i'm going to have live sand + live rock -- I'm going to start adding fish on the 4th week.

I'm guessing then turbo snails + some hermit crabs will do. As far as metals in the water, that won't be a problem -- i'm going to get water from the LFS, this should help -- since then I won't have to worry about mixing sand myself -- i'll then begin mixing water + salt afterwards.

I'll look into some coral, but no anemones makes me happy. since there's no need for it, I won't bother with it.


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## willieturnip (Aug 30, 2009)

Why are you set on adding on the 4th week? Every tank is different and your could be ready the day you set it up or a year down the line..

So long as the filter gives you plenty of current that sounds fine. What does it put out in GPH/LPH?

I know with tropicals you can blag it, with less kit than you need and just get by, but one thing I will say with marine is that you can't half arse it. You can do it properly, or kill a load of fish and waste a load of money.


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## wake49 (Jul 2, 2008)

willieturnip said:


> Why are you set on adding on the 4th week? Every tank is different and your could be ready the day you set it up or a year down the line..
> 
> So long as the filter gives you plenty of current that sounds fine. What does it put out in GPH/LPH?
> 
> I know with tropicals you can blag it, with less kit than you need and just get by, but one thing I will say with marine is that you can't half arse it. You can do it properly, or kill a load of fish and waste a load of money.


I agree with what willie says here, except the being ready the day you set it up. I know he's just trying to stress a point, but let it be known that you probably will have to wait at least 4 weeks to add fish. It isn't a measure of time as much as a progression of the tank. You are looking for first: NitrItes and Ammonias to read Zero. NitrAtes might have a small reading <5ppm. Second: A diatom bloom. This will look like a rust colored algae, covering all the rock and sand. Wait for this to come and pass. Third: the presence of microlife, such as copepods, amphipods and other microfauna scurrying around the tank. At this point you would be ready to add one fish. See how that fish does for a month.

If you have a Quarantine tank (which we strongly suggest) you can buy the fish and add him to the quarantine tank at the beggining of your diatom bloom. Observe him in the QT for 3 weeks. If everything looks good add him to the tank. You should be Quarantining every fish you buy, as not to infect your tank with parasites or unwanted bacterias.

If you are running a filter with ONLY activated carbon, is it a bag of carbon, or a carbon filter pad? If it is a carbon filter pad, make sure you clean it regularly, so detritus does not accumulate on it.

You probably want to add a powerhead as I don't think that the current from the filter will be enough. Is it a Hang on Back (HOB) filter?


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## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

willieturnip said:


> Why are you set on adding on the 4th week? Every tank is different and your could be ready the day you set it up or a year down the line..
> 
> So long as the filter gives you plenty of current that sounds fine. What does it put out in GPH/LPH?
> 
> I know with tropicals you can blag it, with less kit than you need and just get by, but one thing I will say with marine is that you can't half arse it. You can do it properly, or kill a load of fish and waste a load of money.


sorry let's just take that out of the equation as well. lol i'll definitely be adding fish gradually, 4th week was just placed there was a timestamp/placeholder for just an average.

wellp right now, as far as the saltwater tank, my main gripe is finding a decent protein skimmer that's hob and quiet -- i'll also have a power filter for water movement, most likely a aquaclear 70 for a 30 gallon tank, that should be more than enough water movement. -- if not let me know.

I cannot find a good protein skimmer though, need one that's Hob and quiet and at a decent price.

after I find the brands I need i'll go hunting for stuff.

as far as putting the fish into the tanks that'll be slow and careful.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

wake49 said:


> I agree with what willie says here, except the being ready the day you set it up. I know he's just trying to stress a point, but let it be known that you probably will have to wait at least 4 weeks to add fish. It isn't a measure of time as much as a progression of the tank. You are looking for first: NitrItes and Ammonias to read Zero. NitrAtes might have a small reading <5ppm. Second: A diatom bloom. This will look like a rust colored algae, covering all the rock and sand. Wait for this to come and pass. Third: the presence of microlife, such as copepods, amphipods and other microfauna scurrying around the tank. At this point you would be ready to add one fish. See how that fish does for a month.
> 
> If you have a Quarantine tank (which we strongly suggest) you can buy the fish and add him to the quarantine tank at the beggining of your diatom bloom. Observe him in the QT for 3 weeks. If everything looks good add him to the tank. You should be Quarantining every fish you buy, as not to infect your tank with parasites or unwanted bacterias.
> 
> ...


I was about to say the exact same thing. Word for word. Letter for letter. Even with the same periods, commas, and question marks.

On the skimmer search.... what is your budget for the skimmer?


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Sorry I'm late getting back in on this thread, but I'd like to add a couple of things if I may. After reading and catching up with the postings, I must say, I too agree with Willie... and wake49... and Pasfur.

I would like to add something about the corals and fish. It is very unlikely you will get 3 fish into a 20 gallon tank safely. With 2 clowns of the same species (oscellaris is the only species for such a small tank) you will for sure get a pair. The female clown can reach 5 inches. For fish, this would be your max just due to waste load. 
Cleaner crew with clowns, yes, provided you are careful how many and what species you work with. 

On to the corals... not all corals can be mixed together, and in that size of a tank you will be very limited. Please remember that corals are animals and need space to grow. When 2 incompatible corals grow or are placed too close together, they engage in biological warfare until one wins by killing the other. The sweeper tentacles that some of the corals have can be long enough to reach all sides of the glass in a 20 gallon tank easily. Please do your homework before bringing home any corals, and research what you can and cannot mix together in close proximity before you spend your money. We can help you with that if you list some species here. 

You will also want to have a plan in place for overgrowth. If your tank is successful your corals will grow and/or reproduce quickly. Over crowded corals, even if compatible, usually turn into dead corals. Study the methods of fragging for the corals you wish to keep before you buy them. It differs for each species, and some are easier than others. The ability to frag easily may be one consideration for what you wish to keep. It would be a good idea.

As for equipment, it is very unlikely that an Aquaclear, even rated for a 30 gallon tank, is going to be enough circulation to sustain corals. When keeping a marine tank it is not only the amount of movement that is important, but also the direction of the movement. A small power head will do this for you, but you will want to be sure it is something enclosed enough so that the fish and corals can't get caught in it. Rio is one such option. With the powerhead placement, you will find you need to play with where to put it based on where you put the corals and what they find most suitable for themselves and what they require. This will also increase the effectiveness of your HOB filter by helping to circulate the water from the entire tank to the intake of the HOB.

Best of Luck to you!


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## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

bettababy said:


> Sorry I'm late getting back in on this thread, but I'd like to add a couple of things if I may. After reading and catching up with the postings, I must say, I too agree with Willie... and wake49... and Pasfur.
> 
> I would like to add something about the corals and fish. It is very unlikely you will get 3 fish into a 20 gallon tank safely. With 2 clowns of the same species (oscellaris is the only species for such a small tank) you will for sure get a pair. The female clown can reach 5 inches. For fish, this would be your max just due to waste load.
> Cleaner crew with clowns, yes, provided you are careful how many and what species you work with.
> ...


i'll definitely look into it. -- since i'm going with the 29 biocube solution I understand there's already a powerhead like outlet, so I might not need the power head or HoB. I think all inclusiveness is my happiness on that. but that also makes me feel like I'm not going to need a skimmer either -- do you use a skimmer in yours? and is it the one designed for bio cube (the air driven one?) if so how do you get it to work? Because I'm planning on just using that? Also how quiet is the biocube?



Pasfur said:


> I was about to say the exact same thing. Word for word. Letter for letter. Even with the same periods, commas, and question marks.
> 
> On the skimmer search.... what is your budget for the skimmer?


budget for skimmer is very little -- I'm suspecting at the end i'll be making more water changes than anything.

I thought a skimmer would cost about maybe 100 dollars, but it turns out that now i'll be spending twice that.

I currently am going with a 29gal bio cube though so this is what i'm thinking right now.

probably 4" of sand
20-25lbs of live rock (I'll probably be able to get pre-cured rock, or if not pre-cured i'll cure it in the tank)
1 -2 pieces of coral not much
2 clown fish
1 damsel (or an angel fish - smaller species)

besides that i'm set I don't think i'll be needing too much afterwards, just weekly waterchanges if I don't have a skimmer, and if I do -- i'll probably be doing less since it looks like skimmers are made just so that we won't need to change water too much.


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## wake49 (Jul 2, 2008)

I use Water Changes and Protein Skimmers for different reasons. I don't do WC to help with Nitrates. By the time Nitrates have broken down into my system, they are already having an adverse effect on my buffering system. Protein Skimmers pull the organic wastes out before they break down. If you are going with the BioCube, I would suggest buying the PS for that, even if you have to mod it and add an airstone.


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## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

wake49 said:


> I use Water Changes and Protein Skimmers for different reasons. I don't do WC to help with Nitrates. By the time Nitrates have broken down into my system, they are already having an adverse effect on my buffering system. Protein Skimmers pull the organic wastes out before they break down. If you are going with the BioCube, I would suggest buying the PS for that, even if you have to mod it and add an airstone.


sounds good to me, straightest answer yet.

anyway, to everyone that has placed their input into this thread, I thank you all for your advice, and i'll take everything into consideration.


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## wake49 (Jul 2, 2008)

wake49 said:


> I use Water Changes and Protein Skimmers for different reasons. I don't do WC to help with Nitrates. By the time Nitrates have broken down into my system, they are already having an adverse effect on my buffering system. Protein Skimmers pull the organic wastes out before they break down. If you are going with the BioCube, I would suggest buying the PS for that, even if you have to mod it and add an airstone.


I was hurrying to post this and wasn't able to finish it.

I do use water changes on a regular basis. What I change varies with the seasons, I seem to do more in the summer, when my tank is warmer. I change as little as 20% a month and as much as 40% a month. I have found that my Alkalinity and Calcium stay within reasonable levels when I do WC. Don't get me wrong, I still test and dose regularly.

Here is the idea in a nutshell: The Nitrogen Cycle. Get familiar with it because a lot of people in this hobby are infatuated with it. And we should be. The nitrgen cycle has an end product of nitric acid, or NitrAtes. This is why Protein Skimming is so important, they pull out the organic compounds before they break down into nitrates. 

Nitrates are an acid. Alkalinity is your aquarium's ability to keep a pH stable as acids and bases are introduced into the water column. Saltwater is basic (pH 8.3) in nature. Bicarbonate in the water is basic. Bicarbonates make up the largest part of the buffering system in seawater. As acids are introduced into the system (in the form of nitrates), the buffering system acts like a sponge, absorbing the acids while keeping the pH at a steady level. As more acids are introduced into the system, the alkalinity can no longer keep the pH stable. As the pH drops, bicarbonates are converted into carbonic acid. As you can see, Nitrates are detrimental to the buffering system.

I do WC to replace trace minerals and as I said, I don't see Calcium depleted as fast with regular water changes. Every week I am good for at least 5 gallons and as much as fifteen gallons (I have a 150 gallon tank).Since I change the water out of the sump, I don't really disturb the DT at all. I just shut the flow down on the return pump and replace five to fifteen gallons in the sump. In a 29 gallon biocube, I would be more inclined to change one or two gallons a week, over the course of two changings. This would be the least disruptive to the inhabitants I think.


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## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

wake49 said:


> I was hurrying to post this and wasn't able to finish it.
> 
> I do use water changes on a regular basis. What I change varies with the seasons, I seem to do more in the summer, when my tank is warmer. I change as little as 20% a month and as much as 40% a month. I have found that my Alkalinity and Calcium stay within reasonable levels when I do WC. Don't get me wrong, I still test and dose regularly.
> 
> ...


that shouldn't be a problem I can afford that no problem -- plus there's premixed saltwater I can get from the local market that I can just have sit there

my biggest question before I sink 300 dollars in a biocube is -- do I need a skimmer now. I think I have the nitrification cycle down as far as what does what, even though it slightly differs from salt and fresh, but the principal's the same. my main thing is to make sure that the water stays pristine, and before I throw fish in the water I want to make sure the rock is finished curing or at least the tank is acclimated for fish (no real timeframe specified) I might get precured rock, or try to cure it myself in the tank, but I've heard of bad crashes with curing rocks in tanks, so I'll most likely stick to precured. I know with the bio cube will I need to add anything else? skimmer? power head? etc, if not, I think I should be okay and I'll start the process by next week.

if I get a skimmer there's one air driven one for the biocube and that's not what I really want, though if that's the only option that'll be it. If there's one that can be inclusive in the tank, i''ll be more than happy to take that one in consideration or if I don't need one that'll be great.

I found the fish I want, and it's perfect --

at first I wanted an emperor angel, but that requires a 120+ -- no way...

so here's my list of fish I want to place in and this will be a full reef (slowly built) --
1 Flame Angel 
1 small damsel or goby (may not be compatible)
2 Clown fish
+ some inverts (need recommendations for both for cleanup purposes and viewing purposes -- ie. pretty but useful - crabs, starfish, or shrimp)
1 lowlight coral frag

I think this would be perfect if I can get this list.

rock will be about 25 lbs of dry and 5 lbs seeding, since i won't be adding fish anytime soon I can wait for the rock to seed in the tank. (well, whichever is cheaper to be honest)


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## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

UPDATE:
I took the plunge,

Oceanic Biocube 29 Gallon 249.00 - 5.00 + 17.99 = 262.99 (no Tax)
Oceanic Protein Skimmer for 29 Gallon - 24.98 + 5.99 shipping (no tax)

Now I just need Sand + live rock + saltwater + fish.


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## zaitmi (Sep 23, 2009)

No you will be needing a lot more things. trust me.

1. Test Kits.
2. UV Sterilizer.
3. Ph Buffer (though Optional)
4. Strong lights if u will keep Corals.
5. Quarantine Tank.
6. etc.

Saltwater Tank is an expensive project. Plz read everything carefully before investing.

Though one of the most beautiful thing in this world.


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## wake49 (Jul 2, 2008)

So you just spent $300. Get ready to spend about ten times that. :lol:

Let us know once you get the tank and fill it. We'll give you a step by step.


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## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

zaitmi said:


> No you will be needing a lot more things.
> 
> 1. Test Kits.
> 2. UV Sterilizer.
> ...



1. I have test kits
2. UV sterilizers are only if you ever have disease or algae bloom-- I qt my stuff so i'm not going to purchase something that I don't need. 
3. Ph Buffer -- Why would you want to mess with the water's balance when you can actually just do some work to clean up the condition of the water?
4. This should be a given
5. Hence not need a UV sterillizer
6. what the heck?

sorry I'm not trying to be {rude}, but I always do my research before taking a plunge. Your comments come off as though you're being {rude}. If not, sorry and i'm being a bit critical. But a lot of things you've mentioned isn't something I'd take into consideration. {edit by moderator for language}

Especially about PH buffering. One thing you never do is actually interfere with the actual water chemistry unless you absolutely take it down to the T, the dips and the hikes will kill your fish through shock -- salt or fresh.


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## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

wake49 said:


> So you just spent $300. Get ready to spend about ten times that. :lol:
> 
> Let us know once you get the tank and fill it. We'll give you a step by step.



Hi Wake,

thanks for the info -- i'll take it 1 step at a time, i'll be back for sure, I won't have fish for a while and I've read enough about the cycling to expect a diatom bloom, so i'll have questions when that comes.

I'm going to get enough Argonite sand and no goby so I won't want to deal with sand in the filter overflow.
I will have about 5-10lbs of live rock and 15-20 lbs of dry rock.

that will cost me a bundle. I heard making small crevasses will be good for the fish to hide in.

I will be going with 2 clown fish and a flame angel. I'll let you guys know.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

CamryDS said:


> You guys are one of the best, that's why I came here.



Thanks for the compliment. I agree we have a nice group here and hopefully you gain a lot of takeaways for your project.

I want to offer a point of disagreement, although very mild. I see a big benefit for UV Sterilizers that you are overlooking. Even in tanks with the use of a Quarantine, the UV has benefits on the display. 

I have kept no less than 25 or 30 at home marine aquariums over the years, and in my experience the systems with a UV have far less problems with the spread of disease. Even in perfectly kept aquariums, problems develop from time to time with small injuries and secondary infection risks. Fish do not live forever, and these situations are eventually going to occur. The UV kills water born pathogens and reduces the risk of disease spreading from one fish to another. It also creates a more sterile environment, in which fish appear to fight off infections naturally, with the reduced risk of secondary infections.

As an example, in my 180 FOWLR, my Clarkii Clownfish caught a very nasty eye infection. My expectation was the fish had zero chance of recovery. The entire eye was cloudy and glossed over, swollen to the size of a marble. Without any interference from me, the fish fought off the disease and is fully recovered. No other infections set in, and no other fish became infected. I attribute the infection to a bite incurred in the positioning for food in the feeding area. Anyone with experience in fishkeeping understands the seriousness of an eye infection, and this situation is an excellent example of the inherit benefits of a UV.

That being said, it is clearly not a required piece of equipment. But it sure doesn't hurt!


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## willieturnip (Aug 30, 2009)

Careful with that flame angel, as with any angel they always find corals to be tasty snacks!

Make a build thread? Always good to read/look at the pictures and the better your tanks known round here the more specific people can be with advice.


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## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

Pasfur said:


> Thanks for the compliment. I agree we have a nice group here and hopefully you gain a lot of takeaways for your project.
> 
> I want to offer a point of disagreement, although very mild. I see a big benefit for UV Sterilizers that you are overlooking. Even in tanks with the use of a Quarantine, the UV has benefits on the display.
> 
> ...


UV will never hurt, but as far as it really being required, probably not -- I am pretty reasonable, but I've also seen the damage to a system that has an improperly installed UV and it wasn't a prettypicture. so on both sides either beneficial or not i'll stay away from UV, but you do make a remarkable point and i take that with respect.



willieturnip said:


> Careful with that flame angel, as with any angel they always find corals to be tasty snacks!
> 
> Make a build thread? Always good to read/look at the pictures and the better your tanks known round here the more specific people can be with advice.


yeah I hear you on that, i'm going to try to find a couple of coral specimens as well as do some research on it so i don't waste 50 dollars on coral and find them dead the next day or vice versa if something was poisonous.

i'll begin a build thread once I get the tank up and at least with sand and live rock with a clean up crew settled. then i'll deal with coral and etc.

one last note, I know I sounded harsh on the last post in response to the other guy, and in turn I do apologize for it. it wasn't meant to purposely hose him out, but I guess it was a bit too direct without huge reason.

in turn, my apologies.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

CamryDS said:


> Especially about PH buffering. One thing you never do is actually interfere with the actual water chemistry unless you absolutely take it down to the T, the dips and the hikes will kill your fish through shock -- salt or fresh.


I just saw this comment. I want to point out that there is a difference in pH buffering and buffering to build alkalinity and calcium levels. The monitoring of alkalinity and calcium, and adding buffers and supplements, is a vital part of saltwater aquarium maintenance. Neglecting to account for the importance of this aspect of marine aquarium care is very ill advised.


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## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

Pasfur said:


> I just saw this comment. I want to point out that there is a difference in pH buffering and buffering to build alkalinity and calcium levels. The monitoring of alkalinity and calcium, and adding buffers and supplements, is a vital part of saltwater aquarium maintenance. Neglecting to account for the importance of this aspect of marine aquarium care is very ill advised.


That's definitely strange, because i've asked my LFS as well as a lot of my friends and colleagues about buffering for both, and they've never had to do that. Alkalinity and calcium should be supplemented by the environment in the tank.

Both PH and Alk, and Calcium shouldn't be touched. They've never had to do it, and just had to maintain their upkeep in waterchanges as well as just make sure the water tested out okay. This is coming from guys who were more than 10 years in experience, so *shrugs*. But I take advice when I see it and testing will always be done.


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## wake49 (Jul 2, 2008)

This is something that I have seen debated, but in my area there is no debate; we use supplements and buffers. 

The Calcium provided by aragonite sand and Live Rock simply is not enough to negate supplements and buffers. And since Water Changes only replace between 10-30% of the water at a time, it would be safe to assume that only 10-30% of used calcium is being replaced (relatively speaking of course).

Here is a link that Pasfur posted in another thread that will help to justify supplements and buffers:

Aquarium Chemistry: The Carbonate System in the Aquarium, and the Ocean, Part III: Methods Available to the Aquarist.


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## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

wake49 said:


> This is something that I have seen debated, but in my area there is no debate; we use supplements and buffers.
> 
> The Calcium provided by aragonite sand and Live Rock simply is not enough to negate supplements and buffers. And since Water Changes only replace between 10-30% of the water at a time, it would be safe to assume that only 10-30% of used calcium is being replaced (relatively speaking of course).
> 
> ...


skimmed over it -- not a bad read, i'm going to look into this further

let's say for example I do purchase these things, what would be the recommended dose? and what are the names for these "buffers"

-------------------------------
I got a question about live rock though, when do you actually drop them into the tank? I just bought 60 lbs of "live" argonite sand, and I'm waiting for my tank to come in.

I don't know when I should buy actual live rock and if it's cured already can I just drop it in or do I wait?

What are the exact steps in getting it setup (not in decor terms, but in a timeline) if it's not cured, what to do? if it is cured, what to do? Do I "pre" clean by scrubbing it with salt water? do I leave it as is? just wanted to figure it out.

hah, one other question, if I have live sand, do I have to use live rock? or can I use dry rocks and have it be seeded with live sand? So many minute questions -- so little time.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Sorry it took me so long to get back here to answer your questions about the biocube. I don't use a skimmer in mine, and it runs very quiet by my standards. My freshwater tanks make about the same amount of "noise" as the cube, but I don't find any of that type of noise as bothersome. Each of my tanks is set at a specific water line so as to vary the waterfall sound effects I find peaceful. If I were to top them all off completely, which I do from time to time... I don't hear them unless I'm standing over them. The biocube runs an overflow system, so I have to keep that full. 

My set up is pretty basic. I use the light fixtures that came built into the cover, will have to check with my hubby, but I don't think he changed out the bulbs when we set it up... so standard factory bulbs... I don't do actual water changes at this point because there are only corals, shrimps, hermits, and snails in the tank right now. When the time comes to add the pipefish I want, I will do regular weekly water changes if I see a need.
Basically this is my easiest tank, I add water when it evaporates and I add food for the corals and shrimp, and I scrape the coraline algae from the glass about once/month because it grows so fast. Once/month hubby doses with whatever is in his little blue bottle (I can find out if you need to know... I know its something to promote coraline growth) and thats it. I enjoy it, its not "work". The only thing I use for filter media in the built in sump system is live rock. My water is hard out of the tap, but I do use RO water from our home RO/DI system. We have it hardlined into the house with a tap of its own, the output/waste water goes right into the basement sump system of our house. We change the filters as needed. That is all the work I invest in that tank, and the pictures I posted here speak for themselves. My corals & mushrooms, and red grapes grow so fast I can't keep up with them. Lately I do find myself trimming things out about once every 2 wks to deal with overgrowth, which is what prompted me to include those things as prep for your tank. This tank is about 7 months old now. Even the lights are on the timer, so the only time I bother with that is during daylight savings time. 

The biocube set up makes things quite easy for someone who desires a small tank that is easy to maintain, and less expensive that a standard tank because it doesn't require all of the extras that most standardized tanks require to be as successful and "easy" to care for. That is what these tanks were designed to do... make it easy for anyone to keep it healthy if they don't overstock it and understand the environment that makes it function as it does. 

I hope this helps.


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## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

bettababy said:


> Sorry it took me so long to get back here to answer your questions about the biocube. I don't use a skimmer in mine, and it runs very quiet by my standards. My freshwater tanks make about the same amount of "noise" as the cube, but I don't find any of that type of noise as bothersome. Each of my tanks is set at a specific water line so as to vary the waterfall sound effects I find peaceful. If I were to top them all off completely, which I do from time to time... I don't hear them unless I'm standing over them. The biocube runs an overflow system, so I have to keep that full.
> 
> My set up is pretty basic. I use the light fixtures that came built into the cover, will have to check with my hubby, but I don't think he changed out the bulbs when we set it up... so standard factory bulbs... I don't do actual water changes at this point because there are only corals, shrimps, hermits, and snails in the tank right now. When the time comes to add the pipefish I want, I will do regular weekly water changes if I see a need.
> Basically this is my easiest tank, I add water when it evaporates and I add food for the corals and shrimp, and I scrape the coraline algae from the glass about once/month because it grows so fast. Once/month hubby doses with whatever is in his little blue bottle (I can find out if you need to know... I know its something to promote coraline growth) and thats it. I enjoy it, its not "work". The only thing I use for filter media in the built in sump system is live rock. My water is hard out of the tap, but I do use RO water from our home RO/DI system. We have it hardlined into the house with a tap of its own, the output/waste water goes right into the basement sump system of our house. We change the filters as needed. That is all the work I invest in that tank, and the pictures I posted here speak for themselves. My corals & mushrooms, and red grapes grow so fast I can't keep up with them. Lately I do find myself trimming things out about once every 2 wks to deal with overgrowth, which is what prompted me to include those things as prep for your tank. This tank is about 7 months old now. Even the lights are on the timer, so the only time I bother with that is during daylight savings time.
> ...


Ahh it sounds like the system is pretty well maintained then. Since you only have the biocube, that's what i'm planning to do at that point. question about sand though. I've heard to bed the sand and then lay out rock, then I see other sites that don't care which order.

Also with Rocks, is it necessary for me to have live rock at this point? or do I just get dry rock and then use my live sand to seed it? do I feed the tank while it's curing or does it find it's own nutrients?

I've also purchased live rock, cured -- I'm not even sure what the next step is at this point 30lbs of live rock on the way. Ahh well -- anyway these are the simple questions so far that's going through my head.


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## terryap (Sep 22, 2009)

At this point, I would say go ahead and add the sand, and then the live rock when you get it, since it will be cured already, I believe you should add it right away, you will be letting the whole system sit for a while anyways, so suggest you keep testing for the next couple of weeks until all levels are in check. I added my substrate first on my 20 G and then the live rock and everything is doing excellent.
post some pics, can't wait to see them


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## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

terryap said:


> At this point, I would say go ahead and add the sand, and then the live rock when you get it, since it will be cured already, I believe you should add it right away, you will be letting the whole system sit for a while anyways, so suggest you keep testing for the next couple of weeks until all levels are in check. I added my substrate first on my 20 G and then the live rock and everything is doing excellent.
> post some pics, can't wait to see them


Definitely will post pics once I get the system up and running. I got lots of questions, just because it's my 1st saltwater tank and I'm throwing out all my previous freshwater info and just diving into this brand new.

I got my my aragonite sand (live) from caribsea. I got about 60 lbs of it for 88. not too bad, but quiet expensive.

I plan to have it all setup before wednesday =). I'll update again then


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

A note about the order in which to do things. The very first thing is in getting the salinity stable in the tank before adding live anything.. including rock or sand. This can take up to a week to get stable if you are mixing your saltwater at home fresh from RO/DI or tap water. If you add the rock before salinity is stable (or live sand) you will only succeed in killing all of the beneficiary stuff in both sand and rock, and the rock will go through a much heavier period of die off and likely take longer to fully cure. You will also want to make sure the temp is up to 76 - 78 before adding live rock or live sand for same reason.
The average tank will remain empty for about the first week while temp and salinity are monitored for stable safe readings.

Have you ordered a hydrometer or refractometer for measuring salinity/spg? 

The other comment I'd like to make at this stage is the debate about buffering and supplements. Put simply, some people need them and others do not. It all will depend on what your specific water chemistry dictates and how quickly the contents in your tank depletes different minerals. Buffering and additives such as calcium should be entirely reliant on your tank and what your test results show. 

In regards to rock before sand and sand before rock, I always do rock before sand. Especially in a reef environment, rock needs to be extremely stable when stacked. By adding rock first, the sand will then fill in around the bases of the rock structures and will add much stability you won't get any other way. Any animals that may dig, tunnel, or burrow in the sand, such as nassarius snails, sand sifting starfish, gobys, even fish... if the rock is on top of the sand, these animals then have the ability to upset the sand beneath the rock and can send it all tumbling down on themselves at any time. You might want to give that some thought before adding sand first. Once you add corals, it would be a real pity to see it all go tumbling down in the middle of the night, only to wake up and find your favorite coral in pieces, or stuck under a rock where you can't easily reach it... or worse... dead fish.

You made mention that my biocube is the only tank I have... just want to make sure I clarify, this is the only marine tank I have at present. Since moving a few yrs ago I lack the room or money to set them all back up as before. Before moving I had 8 marine tanks running, the biggest was 120 gallons. My husband and I also ran the marine dept at the store for many yrs. I just didn't want you to think I am a newbie in saltwater. I haven't been a newbie in over 15 yrs. At the store my hubby designed and buit the filtration system for the marine dept. The skimming unit was about 7 ft tall. We had a huge marine dept that thrived. The biocube is just my latest toy because I had always set up standard tanks prior to this. Also want to toss in there that I have kept tanks with and without UV, and while there is a noticable difference in how much work is involved in keeping the fish as healthy, it is not a must have. Your work without one will just mean a little bit of extra when it comes time to deciding what fish to keep that can handle the environment you are able to create and maintain.

I can't wait to see your photos!

You asked about the different types of rock to work with. Yes, you can seed dry rock from live sand, but I will warn you it can take a very long time to accomplish. The best way to work with dry rock is to mix with live rock and live sand. This will increase the diversity of the life inside the sand and rock that will thus seed the dry rock. The more dry rock you work with the longer it will take to have fully cured rock and thus a fully stable tank. A good estimate for dry rock is average 6 - 12 months to fully cure this way depending on how dense the rock is and how much bioload you have to work with for seeding. Some rock can take more than 12 months. 

When considering dry rock please be careful which types of rock you select. The typical rocks found for decorating a freshwater tank are not an overall good choice for a marine tank due to the metals most of them are known to contain. In finding dry rock you would be seeking "base rock", which is former live rock that has been dried and sometimes even bleached. If you find you need to raise calcium/hardness/pH, honeycomb rock is also safe to use, but you will not get the same biofiltration from it as you will from base rock or live rock due to its density. This would also require close monitoring of calcium/hardness/pH to make sure it doesn't exceed safe levels. 

I hope this has helped some. Best of luck to you. When you are ready to start a build thread, would you please post a link to it here so I can find it easily? My schedule is very limited so I don't usually have time to browse the forum when I come here. I don't want to miss out!

Thanks in advance!


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

I forgot to mention something else about the live rock that is important. You asked about the difference between cured and uncured. Basically, length of time of die off and length of time before the tank is ready for animals. Please be aware that any rock, even if listed as cured, will go through some period of die off when it is moved from one tank to another. The environments and water chemistry changes and air exposure during moving also makes a difference. If you get your rock before the tank is ready for it, open the boxes up and pour some saltwater over the newspaper packing, but don't uncover the rock.... then close it back up. Do this at least once or twice/day to keep it wet. It doesn't need to be submerged as long as it stays damp. You can keep it this way for quite a long time before you have to worry about extensive die off.

One of the things the live rock contributes to the cycling of the tank is that the die off from the rock introduces most of your ammonia, which in turn begins your cycle.

Also a note about live sand. If you choose to go that route, pour out any liquid in the bag before putting the sand into the tank, but do not rinse the sand in anything before it goes into the tank. If you rinse it that rinses away all of the benefit of it being live sand. Much of the liquid will be ammonia by the time a bag of sand is open, so it is safe to pour this off as long as the sand is not allowed to dry out. A sealed bag of live sand, left unopened, is still usable 6 months to a yr later, as long as it doesn't dry out. The good stuff is still in there. ;-)

Sorry for 2 posts in a row, has been busy here and I have too many things going on at once.
Have a good night.


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## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

bettababy said:


> A note about the order in which to do things. The very first thing is in getting the salinity stable in the tank before adding live anything.. including rock or sand. This can take up to a week to get stable if you are mixing your saltwater at home fresh from RO/DI or tap water. If you add the rock before salinity is stable (or live sand) you will only succeed in killing all of the beneficiary stuff in both sand and rock, and the rock will go through a much heavier period of die off and likely take longer to fully cure. You will also want to make sure the temp is up to 76 - 78 before adding live rock or live sand for same reason.
> The average tank will remain empty for about the first week while temp and salinity are monitored for stable safe readings.
> 
> Have you ordered a hydrometer or refractometer for measuring salinity/spg?
> ...


Thanks for all your advice -- it's always appreciated and informative. The reason why I mentioned the biocube, wasn't because I think you only had a biocube. I definitely didn't mean any insult about it. I definitely can tell with the amount of information you always provide that you know absolutely what you're talking about, and would never just assume that you were a newbie.

Your factful responses encouraged me to pick a biocube up and now i'm in the mix with it. my rocks are luckily coming later than my tank, so i'll have everything ready in a timely manor. as far as the sand, i'll follow your advice for it.

I will be purchasing a meter, but since I don't even have a tank yet I figure i'll 1st use saltwater readily mixed from my lfs. I'll then start buying saltmix from the LFS and R/O water from my local supermarket.

As far as bioload, I don't think it'll be too bad, with 2 clown fish and 1 flame angel. I heard mushrooms as well as some coral goes well, I'll have questions about those later.

Thank you so much for answering my quesiton about sand or rock 1st. That boggled my mind for a while, and not only have you provided a lot of important factual info, but also given me a lot more to read on (which i'm happy about). thanks again and again for helping me out =D


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

CamryDS said:


> That's definitely strange, because i've asked my LFS as well as a lot of my friends and colleagues about buffering for both, and they've never had to do that. Alkalinity and calcium should be supplemented by the environment in the tank.
> 
> Both PH and Alk, and Calcium shouldn't be touched. They've never had to do it, and just had to maintain their upkeep in waterchanges as well as just make sure the water tested out okay. This is coming from guys who were more than 10 years in experience, so *shrugs*. But I take advice when I see it and testing will always be done.


I would be interested in knowing if they drip kalkwasser. It is amazing the number of people who drip kalk but don't consider themselves to be adding a buffer! Or they may doing larger and more frequent water changes, for the simple fact that they need to replenish the lost buffers, and continue using this method because "the fish respond" to the water changes. There is nothing wrong with "old school" techniques, because they can work. I just prefer to keep things a little less time consuming and reduce the physical labor.


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## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

Pasfur said:


> I would be interested in knowing if they drip kalkwasser. It is amazing the number of people who drip kalk but don't consider themselves to be adding a buffer! Or they may doing larger and more frequent water changes, for the simple fact that they need to replenish the lost buffers, and continue using this method because "the fish respond" to the water changes. There is nothing wrong with "old school" techniques, because they can work. I just prefer to keep things a little less time consuming and reduce the physical labor.



I can find out, from what i understand I've never even had that kalkwasser mentioned to me.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

CamryDS, you're welcome. I'm glad I've been able to help. No worries, I was not offended by anything. I like to make sure that not only the author of a thread, but everyone who reads it gets a clear picture of the things I say/post. I can be quite anal about being misunderstood, I do not seek to offend anyone either... but I know the simple mistakes that are often made by simple misunderstandings. I try hard to avoid those.

I do want to note about your ideas for stocking your biocube. I hate to say it, but a pair of clowns and some corals, and clean up crew is going to max our your population. There simply isn't enough room for an angel, even a dwarf to mix with a pair of clowns in this tank. Even a pair of clowns is going to be pushing your max, considering you work with oscellaris, which are the smallest of the clown species. Please keep in mind that when you pair up clown fish you are assured a male and a female. While the male oscellaris averages about 3 inches in size, the female will grow to 5 - 6 inches. That is a big fish for a small tank and doesn't leave room for more fish or the waste load an angel would add to that. 

Keep in mind that volume is not the only consideration when setting up any aquarium. Area is also equally important. The biocube is square, which limits the area. 
There are other fish options if you are interested in suggestions... just let me know. (I recently added a coral band shrimp and 2 peppermint shrimp to my tank)

In regards to the buffering comments by Pasfur... 
I just want to mention that not everyone needs a buffer, or extra water changes, or kalk to retain buffering capacity. It is all a matter of the water you are working with, and it differs everywhere. From town to town, city to city, state to state, etc. everyone's water chemistry is at least slightly different. When we moved almost 4 yrs ago we went about a 1 hr drive from where we lived in the big city. Neither location needed buffers for our tanks... but the water chemistry is so different here its unreal. At the store we didn't use buffers either... the expense would have been too great and it wasn't needed. This is where I like to use the phrase "if it isn't broke, don't fix it".

CamryDS, I would suggest getting that meter for spg/salinity before working even with your store's saltwater. That is still something you need to know, and can also sometimes need adjusting to be where you need it. (You shuold also ask them for the spg/salinity reading they get on it to compare to what you find... not all of their meters and equipment are going to be accurate either. Many stores don't know much more than you do about this stuff, and some even get their info the same way you're getting yours... from free online forums) Also, if you are planning to change water supplies soon after setting up the tank, you are going to need to know the differences in parameters up front so you know what you'll need to do in order to match things up or safely alter the conditions in your tank to accommodate the changes. The best way to do things is to find a source water that is good and easily accessible to you and stick with it.

The most important lesson everyone needs to learn in this hobby is patience. That is the biggest factor in success vs failure. This is not a hobby you can achieve successfully if rushing into it or impulse buying... and there is no one single specific way that works for everyone, so patience is a big factor in figuring out what works for each individual and their situations. Did you know that just the location of a tank makes such a huge difference that no 2 can be identical? As you get deeper into the hobby you will begin to take more notice that even with more than one tank in your own home, no 2 are identical, no 2 react identically to the same things. 

Be prepared to purchase a couple of large rubbermaid tubs or garbage cans for water. It is important to always have both fresh RO/DI and premixed saltwater on hand. Flucutations can happen suddenly, and to be without that water at any given time could mean the difference between life and death for your reef and its animals. Not every need will be for premixed saltwater, and to be honest with you about my tank, it seldom gets actual saltwater changes... more often it is the addition of freshwater to handle evaporation. Water evaporates but salt does not. The smaller the volume of water to begin with, the faster the rate of change in water chemistry. Those are things to always keep in mind. 

Are you planning to get a digital meter/refractometer or a simple hydrometer? A note about hydrometers is that many of them are off to some degree. (it has to do with how they're made and temp changes in the process) If you purchase a hydrometer it would be a good idea to find someone with a refractometer to calibrate it for you and to remark it with a sharpie marker. I have seen a good number of faulty hydrometers responsible for numerous deaths in fish and corals because they were off by just enough to wipe out a tank. It never happened fast that I saw, but starts out as the animals showing issues and not being able to determine a cause because everything looks perfect for conditions. 

If you are in dire need of someone to calibrate a hydrometer for you let me know, we can make arrangements for you to send it to me where I can calibrate it and send it back. I won't charge you anything, just ask that you cover shipping charges because I can't afford any extra expenses right now. I have done this for others and although it takes a bit of time to get back and forth, it turned out a good thing for many because of how far off their hydrometers turned out to be. Most people opt for the hydrometer due to the expense of a refractometer... my personal opinion is that if any bigger expense is going to be devoted to your tank, this is one of the most important.

I hope this helps...


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## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

bettababy said:


> CamryDS, you're welcome. I'm glad I've been able to help. No worries, I was not offended by anything. I like to make sure that not only the author of a thread, but everyone who reads it gets a clear picture of the things I say/post. I can be quite anal about being misunderstood, I do not seek to offend anyone either... but I know the simple mistakes that are often made by simple misunderstandings. I try hard to avoid those.
> 
> I do want to note about your ideas for stocking your biocube. I hate to say it, but a pair of clowns and some corals, and clean up crew is going to max our your population. There simply isn't enough room for an angel, even a dwarf to mix with a pair of clowns in this tank. Even a pair of clowns is going to be pushing your max, considering you work with oscellaris, which are the smallest of the clown species. Please keep in mind that when you pair up clown fish you are assured a male and a female. While the male oscellaris averages about 3 inches in size, the female will grow to 5 - 6 inches. That is a big fish for a small tank and doesn't leave room for more fish or the waste load an angel would add to that.
> 
> ...


that was quite a read, but -oh so informative.

about patience, I've learned a lot over my very short time in the fish keeping world (salt and fresh) and patience is an absolute necessity and people who rush into things will find themselves with a high death rate.

one other thing I found was that with this setup, it's going to be tough, but not as bad -- I have (not garbage cans or large tubs -- but I have some container to help with evaporation with water (fresh not salt)

I've prepared saltwater and freshwater containers since I keep my freshwater fish pristine now.

I'm quite sad today though because I finally got my tank, and it's completely damaged. the light fixture inside are missing ties, the plastic top has cracks and the back panel inside has cracks as well. 

I'm thinking of returning the tank and getting normal std 30 gallon tank setup and use a smaller T-5 fixture. This will not be a biocube, but at least i'll be able to deal with the tank itself. I got the Aquatic Life mini protein skimmer that supports up to 30 gallons, and also i'm going to now have to get a koralia 1 (240 gph) and use my aquaclear 110 (500gph) for water flow through the tank with some carbon.

I think with this setup, I should have a nice little setup and will probably cost me less than the bio cube.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Sorry to hear about the biocube. Unfortunately that is a huge risk when ordering an aquarium online, from anywhere. Something like that should always be picked up in person and shipped by ground with proper handling. That is the biggest reason manufacturers work with wholesalers and not directly with pet stores with glass aquariums. Everything must be handled properly and ground shipped due to breakage and weight issues.

Where did you order it from?

If you go with a standard tank be sure to get a good tight fitting cover. The biggest difference I've found with the biocube other than filtration is the evaporation rate and amount of salt creep I deal with. In a standard tank, even with a cover, both evaporation and salt creep were much more an issue. The biocube simplified everything about caring for the tank and is why I suggested it.

Keep us posted, please!


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## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

bettababy said:


> Sorry to hear about the biocube. Unfortunately that is a huge risk when ordering an aquarium online, from anywhere. Something like that should always be picked up in person and shipped by ground with proper handling. That is the biggest reason manufacturers work with wholesalers and not directly with pet stores with glass aquariums. Everything must be handled properly and ground shipped due to breakage and weight issues.
> 
> Where did you order it from?
> 
> ...



Good news!!!!! I got the reorder of the bio cube and I got the aquatic life protein skimmer to fit without much modifications. it's sitting in the 2nd chamber and im going to be using about 2/3rds of the bio balls, and i don't know if it's even really needed, but whatever works.

my question is -- in the 2nd chamber, how high does the water ever get? since I do want to be able to put the skimmer as high up as possible.

I'll have pics once the tank is at it's permanent place, and filled with water


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## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

CamryDS said:


> Good news!!!!! I got the reorder of the bio cube and I got the aquatic life protein skimmer to fit without much modifications. it's sitting in the 2nd chamber and im going to be using about 2/3rds of the bio balls, and i don't know if it's even really needed, but whatever works.
> 
> my question is -- in the 2nd chamber, how high does the water ever get? since I do want to be able to put the skimmer as high up as possible.
> 
> I'll have pics once the tank is at it's permanent place, and filled with water


I got the tank up completely, it's in my build post. i'm having trouble controlling the water flow though. I want to increase the flow, but the bio cube includes some type of filter sponge + a pad that traps organic stuff. you think since i have a protein skimmer now in the 2nd chamber, I can just remove the filter pads and let it do the work? Also

Since i just brought this up, how long would I wait until the diatom bloom happens (do I have to feed the tank? change the water? etc? -- sorry if i've repeated mysefl)


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

Cam...

BettaBaby will not be online for some time forward.... family emergency issues. I should be able to help at this point, now that the skimmer selection issues with this biocube have been resolved.

The use of filter pads on a reef is normally something that I highly discourage, because these pads trap small organic particles that then break down to deplete carbonates, lowering alkalinity. I am a huge believer that alkalinity stability is a high priority in a marine system. For this reason, I would not use this prefilter.

That being said, the biocube design makes the pre filter very accessible. If you have the self discipline to clean the filter pad every day, or 2 times per day, then the pad could provide some benefits. The key is to rinse the pads EVEN IF THEY ARE CLEAN, because rinsing them will remove small organic particles that you do not see with visual inspection of the pads.


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## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

Pasfur said:


> Cam...
> 
> BettaBaby will not be online for some time forward.... family emergency issues. I should be able to help at this point, now that the skimmer selection issues with this biocube have been resolved.
> 
> ...



Hye pasfur,

thanks for the info on that one -- I gathered that info while reading your other threads. It's extremely useful. I've actually taken your advice on previous threads and taken the prefilter pad with the carbon out of the overflow and replaced it with a sack of carbon. I do have a post filter sponge that I've just cleaned today.

I've been using tapwater to clean out the sponge and equipment and drying them a bit before throwing it back in, that should be okay I suppose. I've also added a single dose of both cycle and amquel into the tank to help everything along -- nothing else has been added though.


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## Pasfur (Mar 29, 2008)

I use a post filter sponge on my skimmer outlet as well, just to kill the microbubbles. There should be almost no organic waste existing the skimmer chamber, so it really isn't a big deal.


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## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

Pasfur said:


> I use a post filter sponge on my skimmer outlet as well, just to kill the microbubbles. There should be almost no organic waste existing the skimmer chamber, so it really isn't a big deal.


Ahh great, I got a question though -- I have a new thread on another part of the forum, but I might as well ask it here --.

So, besides the big big wait and test -- is there anything else I should be doing as in a routine? feeding the tank? Adding anything to the tank at all? i'm not sure what else I can be doing at the moment to help things along.

Anything I should be expecting? Diatom bloom, etc? should I be water changing anything per week or leave it as is? adding inverts anytime soon? etc. I am going to be adding coral later, but that's way down the line.


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## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

Week 0 (tank setup + run, so no testing)
Week 1 of testing:
Test Results this week:
Calcium: 500ppm
Nitrate: 0-5ppm
Alkalinity/Carbinated Hardness: 12dKH or 214.8KH
Phosphate: 0ppm
Gravity: 1.022
Temp: 79
PH: 8.0

Week 2 of testing:
Test Results this week:
Calcium: 460ppm
Nitrate: 0-5ppm
Alkalinity/Carbinated Hardness: 12dKH or 214.8KH
Phosphate: 0ppm
Gravity: 1.023
Temp: 78
PH: 8.0


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

This early on I would be testing for ammonia and nitrite, its a bit early to expect nitrate readings. I don't see any listing for those in the first 2 wks... how high the ammonia goes will give you an idea of how high the nitrite and nitrate can be expected to go, along with watching as the steps of break down work through the cycle. Knowing if ammonia or nitrite is present along with or instead of the others is also important.

Everything else looks good. I would watch the calcium, as it appears to be fluctuating. If it goes too low you will want to begin adding liquid calcium to get it back to a safe range, and also to investigate what is depleting the calcium, which is sometimes detectable and even fixable. The animals going into the tank will utilize calcium, so its good that you are monitoring that closely, and I always suggest anyone watch calcium levels closely long term for that reason.

Keep up the good work!


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## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

bettababy said:


> This early on I would be testing for ammonia and nitrite, its a bit early to expect nitrate readings. I don't see any listing for those in the first 2 wks... how high the ammonia goes will give you an idea of how high the nitrite and nitrate can be expected to go, along with watching as the steps of break down work through the cycle. Knowing if ammonia or nitrite is present along with or instead of the others is also important.
> 
> Everything else looks good. I would watch the calcium, as it appears to be fluctuating. If it goes too low you will want to begin adding liquid calcium to get it back to a safe range, and also to investigate what is depleting the calcium, which is sometimes detectable and even fixable. The animals going into the tank will utilize calcium, so its good that you are monitoring that closely, and I always suggest anyone watch calcium levels closely long term for that reason.
> 
> Keep up the good work!


Hi Bettababy,

Thanks for the info on that -- I've dosed the tank with liquid calcium after I did a test, but didn't retest yet.

I've added about 8 Astraea snails, I got them at an astronomically low price of 5.99
eating up diatom as we speak. I have extra shells in the tank so that the hermits won't bother my snails.

Right now my only gripe is that my protein skimmer isn't skimming like I want it to, the inner tube is dark with skimmate, but the cup fills with a lot of precipitation from the tank's cover. there's some green stuff that is in the cup, but I doubt that's from the foam. It hasn't given me much results. I've began to adjust though, by raising the foam little by little day by day. then again, I have no fish -- so I don't know what to expect.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

What your collection cup actually collects will depend on what proteins are currently in the tank. This will change over time and as you progress. 

Can you post any photos of how you are set up with the skimmer so we can get a better idea on a visual? There will likely be a handful of people who can offer suggestions on your dilemma of the water from the cover, but without a visual we would only be guessing, at best.

How far into set up are you now? How long? And what is all in the tank thus far?


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## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

bettababy said:


> What your collection cup actually collects will depend on what proteins are currently in the tank. This will change over time and as you progress.
> 
> Can you post any photos of how you are set up with the skimmer so we can get a better idea on a visual? There will likely be a handful of people who can offer suggestions on your dilemma of the water from the cover, but without a visual we would only be guessing, at best.
> 
> How far into set up are you now? How long? And what is all in the tank thus far?



Pics will come tonight =) (current at work)

40lbs of live sand
28-29 lbs of live rock

Salt Water:
9 Blue Legged Hermit Crabs
1 Emerald Crab
8 Astraea Snails

3 weeks into the project I'm just missing some clean up crew and fish, all else is doing well.

I've been re-adjusting the skimmer every 2-3 days depending on what's up. I'm also going to cut a hole into the bio cube in the back so the protein skimmer can sit higher than it is right now.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Please be forewarned before you cut... Once you do that you will completely void any manufacturer warranty on the tank.
3 weeks into set up is a bit soon for fish... I know its hard, but patience is your best friend.

I look forward to the pics.


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## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

bettababy said:


> Please be forewarned before you cut... Once you do that you will completely void any manufacturer warranty on the tank.
> 3 weeks into set up is a bit soon for fish... I know its hard, but patience is your best friend.
> 
> I look forward to the pics.


/agree -- way too soon for fish, i'm just testing the water with inverts, since I got most of them free and some pretty cheap.

8 snails for 5 bucks, hermits were mostly free

I got a lot of little things swimming around though.


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## CamryDS (Oct 5, 2009)

here are some pics on how the sump is done on the back - click on the thumbnail:


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