# Overstocking by Experienced Aquarists



## Flint

How do you guys feel about experienced aquarists overstocking? 

I find that because I overstock a little, I get bashed a lot sometimes. For instance, I was just told I need 120 gallons for 5 goldies and a pair of bristlenose. I feel that my 75, if maintained and filtered properly will support this stock without any issues and I understand that some people like to be extremely conservative in stocking, especially with messy fish with high bioloads like goldfish but that's beside the point. 

Personally, I feel as long as you keep up maintenance and provide adequate filtration, as well as don't overstock the tank to the point that the fish don't have room to function, overstocking isn't that big of an issue. I was just curious of other's standpoints.


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## Mikaila31

Its as much an art as it is a science. 

A 120 for 5 goldies is a joke IMO. 5 fancies in a 75 and your still not in heavily stock range IMO. I don't keep goldfish, which I know call for a bit more in regards to stocking. But not that much more, unless you want to keep your upkeep low and water changes to a minimum. For the fish I keep(not goldfish) I tend to average a fish a gallon in many of my tanks. I have 8 GBR in a 40 gallon that holds about 50 fish in total and 6 of those rams are breeding pairs. 
Is it bad stocking... no. 
Would I tell others to stock like that... no. 
Would I complain about others stocking heavier... no. 
Thats were the experience and the art comes in. If someone is actually stocked too heavily or with incompatible fish they will experience problems that point towards being overstocked. Until then its really just opinions, experienced or not. Breeders stock like crazy and easily get away with it because they know how and can maintain those tanks fine.


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## Tolak

I follow the foot per gallon rule.


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## Sylverclaws

Ah, if you can maintain it, and if there is sufficient space for the fish, it's not as much of a problem. The problem is being able to keep up so the fish don't suffer spikes and bounces in parameters. 

I currently have a 55 gallon that's over-stocked on livebearers until I can find homes for some of the youngsters. I think I have thirty-some(ten adults and two sub-adults who are the normal stock), a baby pleco and two three-spot gouramis, and I have two filters, lots of live plants and still have to do regular 30% changes twice a week with smaller 10% ones every three days or so other than that just to keep it stable. Been doing it for about six months without any changes in parameters and spikes, but it's hard work! If you're willing to go to such lengths, it's not so much of an issue.

The other issue is: What KIND of goldfish do you have? If you have the single tailed ones, it's a matter of both space and bioload. If you keep up with maintenance that's good for the bioload, but the space is another matter and you risk stunting and aggression issues, as well as stress from the lack of space which can cause illness. I also don't know about BN plecos with coldwater fish, I thought they liked their water temps in the seventies and goldies typically don't like it past 65 degrees. 

Now if you have the smaller type goldies, like the fancy-tails it's another matter, but there are still the same risks with space having five of any kind in tanks smaller than 120 gallons. However, having the ones that stay six to eight inches and under in there, with good proper maintenance and extra filtration, you should be alright. People keep three in a well maintained 55 gallon with no problems provided they keep up with cleaning, a 75 for five fancies should be fine, and doubtful you'll have space issues, but always a thing to watch for. 

Over-stocking can be dangerous and isn't usually preferable for experienced keepers, it should be avoided for the fishes sakes, as well as your own back! But if it happens and you put in the hours and work, it's not so bad for some types of over-stocking. =) There is more than one type of it, like people who put a fancy goldfish in a ten gallon and then decide five neon tetras or pygmy cories will fit too. No amount of proper cleaning and maintenance is going to fix that, not only is it too much for the tank to be able to handle even with 90-100% changes daily, but that's the also the wrong kind of fish and the wrong sized tank for the -size- of the fish. 

In other words, if you have common goldfish, that's not enough room for them, and a 125 really wouldn't be either. It wont matter how well you care for the tank if it's too small for what you have to grow and swim and socialize properly, see?

That's just my opinion on it. It's always iffy.


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## Flint

I was referring to fancies and goldfish don't need as cold of water as is usually pushed. I plan on keeping the tank 75F. IMO 65 is on the low end for a Goldie even though they can handle colder. I figure once this tank is stocked and the fish have reached adult size I'm looking at 50-60% weekly, maybe a smaller 20-30% inbetween if necessary.


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## Sylverclaws

That'll probably do it if you have really good filters to boot. 

I did not know they could handle temps that high for long periods. =o I've been doing a ton of research on goldfish lately, but I haven't heard that one, honestly. I read that having temps above 72F speeds up their metabolisms and shortens their life-spans by a lot. But, alas! I am still in research mode and have been for...oh, I dunno maybe six months now. I was -thinking- about getting a pair of fancies for my 55 gallon one day, but no time soon likely. Perhaps if I can make a nice amount of pocket money this summer I will buy another large tank and get my pair of fancies. I do so like them. =) Been trying to save for more tanks for a while. lol Or perhaps my long wanted cherry barbs and a few crayfish...or a one more addy. ^_~


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## Mikaila31

I usually do 50% changes weekly sometimes its every 2 weeks if I'm busy. I don't over filter much or not at all IMO. My turnover is 5-7x usually sometimes less depending how clogged things get. The 40 gallon has two sponges maybe 4" cubes or so and thats it. 

Each to their own. My 55g is stocked much heavier I don't consider it over stocked. The effort again varies. I use hoses to change water so there is very little work involved. I just try not to drink too much when changing water.

Not gonna mention my stocking when I use to have livebearers, but its the reason I got rid of them all to the first person willing to take them lol...

I don't see anything wrong with 75 for goldies they have a very wide temp range. 65 isn't the lowest either. People overwinter koi and goldfish all the time in minnesota. 

Everyones opinion will be different on whats best for fish. I spend $5 at least every 2 weeks on live food for my fish and they certainly don't need that. A lot of time care comes down to preference and what works.


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## Thoth

If your maintenance can keep up the water quality, the fish are not aggressive with one another and the fish have sufficient room in the tank, I see no problem.


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## sandybottom

with 2 hw303 sun suns and large water changes (75% or more)weekly.you should be fine.but you have to be on top of those wcs, you are giving yourself no wiggle room.i would use the 304s though.if it were me though i would go without the plecos.this is my personal preference though.i would take no chances with my goldies getting their slime coats sucked off.many people have kept them together with no problem.keep up on the filter maintenance by cleaning one canister every other week.by staggering the upkeep it helps to avoid parameter spikes. keep in mind the type of fancy also.orandas and ryukins get huge.ranchu and telescopes stay a little smaller. make sure that you do not overfeed will be important for water quality.1-2% of their body weight daily will do fine.i suggest keeping the temp between 68-72f.they are not coldwater fish,but rather temperate water fish.this is their "ideal" comfort zone. get a good air pump and bubble stone in there too. the whisper ap series is good for running large bubble walls and deep tanks as well as multiple devices. i have seen breeders keep heavily overstocked tanks with only sponge filters.they are doing 2x weekly water changes at 100%.when i get my ranchu in a few months i will be overstocked.yet i am running a sunsun 303b and a fluval 306 on a 45 gallon.so about the same filtration as you plan on using,but in a tank 30 gallons smaller.i will also upgrade tank size when the time comes.


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## henningc

If you get the tank well started, not just cycled, with all natural bio systems working, have double gph filter capacity and can keep up the water changes you should be fine. Shame on me, I have approximately 70 Endlers in a 30L. They have two sponge filters rated for 125gal, a ex-large corner filter that has carbon so old I just don't remember and duckwwed. I do 20% changes weekly and they are as stable as can be.

The rule is, if you just want a tank to sit in thelivingroom, don't over stock. If you are maintaining tanks to experience fish and their natural behaviors stock away. OOPS, don't try it with cichlids.


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## jaysee

I have always been a very heavy stocker. For community tanks I follow the 1 fish per gallon rule, the caveat being appropriately sized fish for the tank (mostly for small fish). I aim for close to 10x turnover from canisters for my filtration.

That being said, no amount of filtration can make up for a lack of space.

I see this concern expressed over and over again, but I just don't understand people's worries about "spikes". Aside from initially, when fish are first added, there should be NO spikes. That's why we run filters.


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## Flear

so ... this would be a bad practice right ?









LOL


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## Flint

Yes, Flear, that would be bad practice, haha!


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## Agent13

I overstock at least a couple of my tanks . I don't follow any particular "rule".. As Mikaila was saying that part is more of an art .. And experience teaches you this . I only look at each fishes needs and follow my common sense . We all know there are rules for the species we keep .. But that's just a guideline. Generally designed for newish fish keepers . You need to start somewhere to understand stocking . 

Overstocked or not I prefer high filtration . Between that and water changes I have very active healthy fish . If someone bashes you for your stocking that's only because they are applying newbie rules to you. 


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## Flint

Yeah, I was advised not to keep more than 3 fancies and 3 mystery snails in the tank. Uhm, I'm sorry, it's a 75 gallon, general rule when stocking goldies is 4ft tank, 20g for the first, 10g thereafter. 5 fish means 20+10+10+10+10=60 gallons. That only leaves 15 for the plecos and snails, but 3 snails won't push bioload in an over-filtered 75 and BN are bred in 10 gallon tanks. I understand that some people, especially with goldfish, like to be conservative but I'm not. I like to push my stock a bit for a more active, full-looking tank and am capable of doing so. It may mean more, much stricter maintenance but in the end as long as my parameters are stable and the fish can turn around, it's my tank.


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## jpepe1

Let me start by saying this is just my opinion and I respect your thoughts on this.I couldn't disagree more with overstocking.I think it's cruel to the fish and not what we should be striving for.You could fit four or five people in an elevator ,clean it everyday,filter the air and give them good nutritious food but this would still be a miserable existence.I think that when one is entrusted with a living animal one is also accepting the responsibility of providing it with the best care possible.
In my largest tank (90 gallon) I have one fish,a 10 inch senegal bichir. In my 75 I have 8 fish that are a little over two inches long with the hopes of adding 8 more of a different species but of similar size.The mollies that I love are kept in groups of 5 in 55 gallon tanks. I like to think my fish live long stress free lives. I have no cleaner fish or algae eaters (my job) to help keep populations low. In over 40 years of keeping fish I have never,not once,had a disease outbreak. I also enjoy watching fish behavior more then just looking at their pretty colors and fish in a low density tank behave more naturally. Yes some of my grow out tanks get temporarily crowded but this gets corrected ASAP.This is just my view and hope no one takes offense.


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## Agent13

I'm not offended by your view . We all have our own way of doing things. 
When I say I do overstock(pretty sure I can speak for many of us) I don't get carried away. And disease is not an issue I deal with here. Only "outbreak " I can recall is when I forgot to plug the heater back in on one tank . The clown loaches had ich after that. They got chilled as the tank dropped to the mid 7
60's over night . Been keeping fish 22yrs and that's about all I can recall for disease . Aside from a few times newly bought fish were heat treated for ich right away. 
Sickness shouldn't be an issue with overstocking if done right.. That's where it becomes an art. I honestly don't think I could teach someone to duplicate my way of overstocking . I expect almost all my fish to be around for a long time.


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## Flear

my g/f is getting into breeding snakes (ball pythons)
there is a standard expected tank size for how big the snakes get

be it a snake or a fish, this size is based on allowing the animal enough space to move around

my personal take on the subject is "does this said tank size allow the animal to live a full long life to the end of it's expected life expectancy or is it stressful and causing the animal to have a drastically shorter life ?

a school of neon tetras would love a 2000 gallon aquarium, ... but it's excessive

is the tank large enough to allow the fish to live a full long life ?
is the tank healthy enough to allow breeding ?

if yes to those, you're not overstocked

if you've got sufficient filtration & treatment/maintenance, ... you're good to go.
if the fish have ... "space to turn around" is vastly different from turning around comfortably, ... they need to be comfortable

comparing things to an elevator with 5 people, ... that's a harshly unrealistic comparison, ... i'm sure office buildings are packed with more people per area than how many fish per volume in aquariums.

as was said "an art and a science"
as was said "experience"
as was said "if your willing to do the labor for maintenance"

and it's all dependent on species


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## jaysee

Jpepe by that rationale we shouldn't be keeping fish, because there is no tank size that compares to the wild.

It's up to each of us to decide for ourselves how we want to stock and how much space our fish need to swim - it's very much an individual hobby.


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## Agent13

jaysee said:


> Jpepe by that rationale we shouldn't be keeping fish, because there is no tank size that compares to the wild.
> 
> It's up to each of us to decide for ourselves how we want to stock and how much space our fish need to swim - it's very much an individual hobby.



Also if following that line of thinking .. My kids might be really suffering with our 1400sqft. But no.. They don't even want to move . They see my nephews in 2500sqft with MANY acres of land.. And the home I grew up in with 3,000sqft on 1 acre .. But they love where we live and it. So do I . Even though we are "overstocked " haha


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## jpepe1

jaysee said:


> Jpepe by that rationale we shouldn't be keeping fish, because there is no tank size that compares to the wild.
> 
> It's up to each of us to decide for ourselves how we want to stock and how much space our fish need to swim - it's very much an individual hobby.[/quote None of my fish ever lived in the wild.Most of my fish are strains that don't live anywhere but in aquariums.My views are what works for me, that doesn't mean that you need to share them.I'm not judging anybody I was just sharing a different opinion.


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## Agent13

You are very right jpepe. To each their own. I don't recall you berating other aquarists for their stocking methods ( if you have I retract my lack of judgement ;-) ) 
I actually do have fish very close to wilds. Many many f1s .. Only ones I have in moderately stocked tanks are my Pygmy sunfish and ornate bichir( well my bichirs dry 240 that hasn't been moved yet ) . My others do quite well in my overstocked tank. It's all about what my individual fishes needs are . I know I've chosen African cichlids that are well suited and personality matched perfectly to be in an overstocked tank .. The over filtration and high circulation help keep them happy . My ornate on the other hand I have to stock carefully around.. He prefers to choose his tank mates .. That's what he needs . Each type of fish is different. Actually after talking about this I do wonder if I can find a way to duplicate how I make these judgments .. 


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## atwilson1972

there are so many different variables with overstocking concerns.
i think overstocking is absolutely fine if done with respects to the fish and maintenance.
a few times i have overstocked...
1) my kenyi and auratus started madly breeding and instead of separating them, i kept the juvies in a 55 gallon to the point where i could not see the back of the tank.(maybe ill find one of the pics)
i kept them all to near adult size in that tank, no runts or stunted growth... it was a real chore cleaning it multiple times per week, but they were happy and healthy.
and cichlids are known to be densely packed in real life...
2) another example, my 125 had misc malawi cichlids loaches, 20 inch fire eel, and a full grown midas cichlid. not heavily stocked by numbers, but the eel and midas took up alot of the air. luckily i noticed and added more current and multiple air lines. after adding air, everyone was fine.
the tank was not crowded but the size of the fish can make a difference.
i think overstocking looks so cool with the right fish and layout.


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## rsskylight04

i would have to agree that fish seem to behave more naturally and generally enjoy life more in lightly stocked tanks. Thats only my experience and i withhold all judgement for anyone who sees otherwise or prefers the look of a heavily stocked tank. Thats the great thing about this hobby, theres room for all kinds of people. I like a natural looking tank with natural substrate and nothing artificial. Others may like Ornaments or unnatural decorations, some people love the G lo-fish thing. Fortunate thing is that no one has to be right and no one has to be wrong. I find it distasteful that someone would keep fish in less than great conditions, but that's only my opinion. There are bait shops that keep live fish with the exclusive goal of them one day being killed. Are they immoral or wrong for conducting their business ?


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## Flear

*happy fish*

what constitutes a 'happy fish' ???

i see lots of people saying their fish are happy in their tank, ... their tank could be pristine, or dirty, ... and they're promoting that their fish are 'happy' ???

what makes a fish happy ?

i know i'm happy with a full belly , and plenty of rest  

but what about for a fish ?

(there's gotta be some better threads on here promoting some smiles and joy over the ones of people arguing - yes i'm guilty of that too)

what about guilty pleasures ?, do fish have those ???

Edit:
this was supposed to be a new thread, sorry all


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## Sylverclaws

Flear said:


> what constitutes a 'happy fish' ???
> 
> i see lots of people saying their fish are happy in their tank, ... their tank could be pristine, or dirty, ... and they're promoting that their fish are 'happy' ???
> 
> what makes a fish happy ?
> 
> i know i'm happy with a full belly , and plenty of rest
> 
> but what about for a fish ?
> 
> (there's gotta be some better threads on here promoting some smiles and joy over the ones of people arguing - yes i'm guilty of that too)
> 
> what about guilty pleasures ?, do fish have those ???
> 
> Edit:
> this was supposed to be a new thread, sorry all


lol I think that's another opinion thing on the keepers part, mostly. In my opinion, if my fish are happy, aren't sick, and have space for their species, and numbers for their species preference, they're happy. 
It's also my opinion that, if you have too many fish in a smaller over-stocked tank where they don't have the space to swim, they get stressed, bored and unhappy because they can't do as they were meant to do: Swim. 

Guilty pleasures? Hmm, I don't think so, but I consider eating ones young a guilty pleasure...however it's normal to the fish! Some anyways. lol

Eating? Well, if the fish isn't feeling the burn of hunger and starvation, I don't know if it makes them HAPPY so much as not feel cruddy and hungry. 

Fish don't think the way people do. I think they're "Happy" if they have their needs all taken care of and can just be fish and swim as they should. 

I also agree a lot of well cared for, but over-stocked tanks look pretty. Some fish seem fine with it too, but other times you got stress going on, and if they're stressed they're not happy. If they're stunting, they're hurting, or just can't figure out why they're not working properly and not happy.

Basically it's all opinions on it though, and those are mine: Enough room to be fish and properly grow and swim, enough group members to feel secure, properly fed and cleaned up after with stuff to do in the tank like investigate plants and caves and the like = happy fish.


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## Flint

I believe my fish are happy when they are in full color, active and eating.

For those of you that are interested, I am about to start my 10 gallon back up and will be documenting the process as it goes. I feel that this will show those interested in advancing in the hobby how exactly one would go about over-stocking safely, the parameters to expect, ect. 

The Overstock Project


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## jpepe1

Is overstocking safely a good thing? I totally get the mbuma thing,it makes sense. Are you going to keep 50 small fish in a 10 gallon,maybe 100, maybe 200? Should we be impressed? By the very word, OVERstocking means too many fish in a finite space.There is no doubt it can be done,but should it be done ? I want to meet the guy (or gal) who can raise generations of tetras ,that's an aquarist.


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## Flint

I'm not talking about putting hundreds of fish in a 10 gallon. I never once said that. Overstocking, more often than not, doesn't have anything to do with space but more likely water quality. If you can keep your water quality pristine, you can overstock to an extent. I'm not saying that means put an Oscar in a 10 gallon and do daily water changes, there is a space issue there, but keeping a gourami, a shoal of small tetras, maybe two, a BN and a shoal of small cories doesn't present a huge space issue (unless you are one to argue the tetra thing) it will just mean more upkeep. 

ETA - Just because you don't breed tetras, doesn't make you an inexperienced or bad aquarist.


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## Mikaila31

There is a difference between heavy stocking by an experienced individual and actual 'overstocking'. I don't consider any of my tanks over stocked, tho some certainly might. The point here is that heavy stocking does not have any negative impacts on most fish provided it is done correctly. 

I've bred some tetra species accidentally in heavily stocked tanks and had a few lucky fry survive, I don't really think there is anything special about that. As usually egg scatterers collection and fry survival is pretty piss poor unless setup for specific breeding of tetras, getting many of them to spawn isn't hard at all. All together my 6 GBR do about a spawn a week, occasionally 2. My breeding group of boesemani rainbows spawn more days then not and have a mop in their tank for that reason. 

Over stocking is an misused word IMO. You are only overstocked if the tank is not maintainable at the current conditions. If it is maintainable then its not over stocked. 

If you want guilty pleasures feed live black worms.

Tank footprint plays a huge effect when heavy stocking. Thats the reason 'breeder' tanks exist. 8 rams in a 40 gallon may sound like a lot but then you have to factor that tank has a 36"x18" footprint or 648 square inches. In comparison a standard 55 at 48"x12" has a smaller footprint at 576 square inches. This plus how I maintain my tanks is how I would say my 40B still has room for fish.


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## rsskylight04

Larger tanks( 75+) look great heavily stocked. Not my thing, but for display it really makes an impact.


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## atwilson1972

important word of the day is overstocking...:lol:
the word itself is a word defined by each individual.
person one says that is over stocked...
person two says its heavily stocked but perfectly maintainable...
and person three says "where are all the fish? let's put 50 more cichlids in that 10 gallon tank!" even though it already has 50 in it. :roll:

we can argue overstocking all day, but it is in each persons opinion. by that standpoint, there are lots of overstocked aquariums.
by the fish's standpoint, if it's comfortable for them and none are stressed out, it is obviously "not" overstocked.
i know people will argue this, but i think they will be arguing their opinion, not the standpoint of the fish.


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## jaysee

Having experience with the specific species you intend to keep goes a long way to your capacity to overstock.


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## Agent13

jaysee said:


> Having experience with the specific species you intend to keep goes a long way to your capacity to overstock.



That too , yes . I find learning everything you can about each species helps maybe even more . Learning where they are from , why they do things they do and the general "why" to their behavior . That all helps a great deal with my overstocking . And u don't mean a quick google on fish , I mean break open a book written by experts. True full blown research on top of experience is an excellent starting point to overstocking . I psychoanalyze people so why not fish too? It's in my nature and I'm good at it.. This analyzation of the fish you keep can further your ability to have great success as an aquarist . 


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