# new tank syndrome, need help fixing its please



## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

hi everyone im new to keeping fish......
heres my story so far.....
i was bought an aquaone 10 gal tank for xmas, it came with a light and filter.
i carefully wiped out the tank, cleaned the gravel and de-chlorinated the water.
i left its standing for a week while i researched what fish id like, i then bought a heater which i set at 25 centigrade.
2 days later i went into my local pet shop and was advised to buy black phantom tetras, which i did and they died less than a day later. 
a few days later i took a water test sample to a different pet shop and they said everything was fine and advised to buy zebra danios which i did and they died 2 days later. i then went back to the first pet shop with a water test and they told me my nitrites and nitrates are to high and sold me an airstone to help and some stress zyme, i have recently bought an API test master kit which has given me the following results
ph:7.6
high ph:8.2
ammonia:2.0
nitrite 5.0
nitrate:80 ppm

i also tested my tap water and the nitrite and nitrate levels came up non existent.
my tank has now been running nearly a month and i still have no fishes, i dont know what to do to lower my the toxins in my water and i already do water changes each week of 25%.

can anyone help me as im about to give up on it all?


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## TheMaEsTrO (Jan 19, 2012)

It sounds like you're in part of the cycling process, but not fully. I would do a much larger water change (90percent) and test the next day and see where you are. Im assuming you arent changing the filter media, which would deplete you of any beneficial bacterial colonies, but if you have changed it, dont change it again. 25 percent in a ten gallon tank is not a lot, which means you are always having a fairly large amount of ammonia and nitrites still left in the tank after a water change. When I was cycling, it wasnt until I did 80 percent plus water changes did I really start to notice results, giving all the bacteria a chance to catch up as it were. Can you post more details of what you have been doing since day 1?


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

i havent changed the filter media, but i have emptied out the sponge and rinsed it in tank water as i suspected it was blocked from debris in the water, i change the water once a week and added stress zyme under the pet shops advice


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## ladayen (Jun 21, 2011)

First off... dont listen to the pet store. Neither of those fish should be in a 10g. Next.. does your city put chloramine in the water? That will kill fish fast and does not come out unless you use proper water conditioners.

NM just saw you bought API master kit to test your water.


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## TheMaEsTrO (Jan 19, 2012)

I had the same issue with my tank when we started. Then, I got the correct information for cycling. You have to test the water for ammonia nitrite daily, and sometimes you have to do the water changes daily at 90 percent, yes daily! The bacteria need to multiply and it takes time. I did with Black skirt tetras (not phantom) which are much hardier and can withstanding higher toxicity. My tank is much bigger, and doing dialy changes was a pain, but it worked. At 10 gallons, you should be able to do it much quicker. It took almost 2 weeks of daily/every other day changes, but then one day I registered 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and after a week of those readings, I knew I was cycled. The nitrates would increase, which is exactly what you want. nitrate is not toxic at low levels, so it can go as much as 50 ppm before you should be concerned, so at that point you are looking at weekly routine water changes.


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

yes i treatedthe water with de-chlorinator, what would u guys advise? carry on with the water changes?


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## ladayen (Jun 21, 2011)

Chlorine and chloromine are different. Make sure you conditioner specifically mentiones chloramine on it.
Make sure when you're at the pet store you take a good look at all the fish tanks. Do the fish look sick? Do they have white spots on them? Are there dead fish in the tanks? (It does happen occasionally fish dont fare well in transit so one here and there isn't a big deal, but several in one tank is a red flag.)

Otherwise just keep on with the water changes. I would suggest maybe 50% every other day. Given your ammonia levels and nitrites those are at very toxic levels and should be at 0, so lets not add any more fish until we get there.


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## jeaninel (Aug 24, 2007)

I don't understand where your ammonia is coming from if the tank is empty. Are you doing a fishless cycle using pure ammonia or fish food? The beneficial bacteria need an ammonia source to colonize your tank.


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

i think the ammonia is coming from the plant waste, the tank has been empty for a couple of weeks now and i havent put any ammonia into it.
i did a 50% water change last night and my reading are as follows:
ammonia:1.0 ppm
nitrite: 5.0
nitrates: approx 40 ppm
why has the nitrite level not changed? should i do 50 % water changes every day?


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## GwenInNM (Feb 2, 2011)

amy11 said:


> i think the ammonia is coming from the plant waste, the tank has been empty for a couple of weeks now and i havent put any ammonia into it.
> i did a 50% water change last night and my reading are as follows:
> ammonia:1.0 ppm
> nitrite: 5.0
> ...



Wow, for sure don't put any fish in that tank. I also don't understand why you have such high nitrate levels with no fish.:-? Plants aren't going to cause ammonia spikes. Something is up. Weird.

Gwen


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

hey all thas been following this,
after 3 50% water changes my new results are as follows
ammonia:0.25
nitrites:2.0
nitrates: 40 ppm
they are lowering slowly, but is there anything i can do to speed the process


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## GwenInNM (Feb 2, 2011)

amy11 said:


> hey all thas been following this,
> after 3 50% water changes my new results are as follows
> ammonia:0.25
> nitrites:2.0
> ...



Not too much you can do. There are products that report to have "beneficial bacteria" in a bottle. Check for that at your LFS. That may help. Some are better than others, probably the best are sold refrigerated, to keep bacteria alive. 

Gwen


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Are there live plants, by which I mean still alive and growing? I'm wondering if the "plant mess" you mentioned earlier that clogged the filter is partly causing some of this.


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

yes the plants are living and i have got nutrafin cycle thats supposed have beneficial bacteria etc, my ammonia, and nitrates are lowering but im still having problems with the nitrites, when will i know if my tank has cycled?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

amy11 said:


> yes the plants are living and i have got nutrafin cycle thats supposed have beneficial bacteria etc, my ammonia, and nitrates are lowering but im still having problems with the nitrites, when will i know if my tank has cycled?


Normally, cycling is achieved when ammonia and nitrite are zero for consecutive days running and nitrates appear. I really don't understand your numbers. I asked about plants because they grab ammonia so fast one cannot even detect nitrite, providing some are reasonably fast growing species (stem plants, floating plants are good for this).

Cycle isn't live bacteria, and it has the "wrong" bacteria in it, but it does still help to quicken the cycling. But the cycle still must establish, this product simply shortens the period by a few days.


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## GwenInNM (Feb 2, 2011)

Byron said:


> Normally, cycling is achieved when ammonia and nitrite are zero for consecutive days running and nitrates appear. I really don't understand your numbers. I asked about plants because they grab ammonia so fast one cannot even detect nitrite, providing some are reasonably fast growing species (stem plants, floating plants are good for this).
> 
> Cycle isn't live bacteria, and it has the "wrong" bacteria in it, but it does still help to quicken the cycling. But the cycle still must establish, this product simply shortens the period by a few days.



I agree with you Byron. I didn't even want to comment, because I don't understand how this tank can have such a high level of nitrates, and still have ammonia and nitrites. Weird. Could the tank have lots of decay? What would cause that? Shocking, with water changes it is like that.

Gwen


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## Tazman (Jan 15, 2012)

Try not doing any water changes for a couple of days and take note of the readings after that.

By the readings you are getting the cycle looks as if it is stalled, you should not be seeing ammonia and nitrite at those levels of nitrate.

My belief is the plants are not allowing enough ammonia to get to the bacteria to progress the cycle. I have seen it so many times with people planting tanks and then wondering why things are going wrong.

I think the only way to cycle a tank properly is fishless cycling dosing ammonia. Plants are good at reducing nitrates and keeping ammonia at zero once the system is established. By adding plants they feed off the ammonia the bacteria need to progress and get the right bacteria growing.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

One thing I forgot to mention, Amy, regarding the API nitrate test. If this is the test yo have, Regent #2 must be shaken for 2 minutes before adding the drops. The instructions say 30 seconds, but this often gives faulty (and high) test results. Two minutes is needed.

Yes Gwen, I don't understand this. Maybe I should start testing my tanks, I might be surprised.:shock:


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## Tetra Guy (Dec 28, 2011)

I have API Master Test Kit as well. It is vital you follow the instructions for testing. I shake the bottles for longer than recommend just to be on the safe side. I also add exactly to the 5mm water line, as instructed.


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

yes i do follow the instructions on my test kit, and its quite possible there was a lot of decay in my water as the pet shop advised against water changes so for the last 3 weeks it hasnt had a water change, its only when i joined this forum everyone said do water changes that ive been getting things sorted.
i added the nutrafin cycle yesterday after my water change and t
odays results are
ammonia:0
nitrites:0.25
nitrates:40 ppm
im hoping this means i might be nearly cycled?


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## GwenInNM (Feb 2, 2011)

amy11 said:


> yes i do follow the instructions on my test kit, and its quite possible there was a lot of decay in my water as the pet shop advised against water changes so for the last 3 weeks it hasnt had a water change, its only when i joined this forum everyone said do water changes that ive been getting things sorted.
> i added the nutrafin cycle yesterday after my water change and t
> odays results are
> ammonia:0
> ...



Reading back at your first post, the whole thing seems crazy. You lost fish in 2 days of adding them, and over just 8 days had a reading of nitrates at 80ppm? Doesn't fit the process of cycling to me. :-? 
Unless you added 100 danios? 

Go slow, there is something off here. Sorry, I'm no help.

Gwen


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

i had 4 tetras at about new yr then they died, i bought 6 danios a week later and they died and nothing has been in there since then but i hadnt done any water changes or anything till jan 20th


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Stay on top of things now, with regular (every week) water changes of 40-50% of the tank.


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

so will i be ready for fish soon? im thinking guppies or endlers as a species tank with some sort of bottom feeder


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

amy11 said:


> so will i be ready for fish soon? im thinking guppies or endlers as a species tank with some sort of bottom feeder


Continue the "Cycle" product as directed on the bottle. If ammonia stays zero for a couple days, I would add a couple endlers (or guppy, whichever). Continue to monitor for a few days, and if still OK then consider more fish.

Remember that livebeares will quickly produce fry if females are present, so males only may be best.


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

yh ive learnt my lesson and will stock more slowly this time, i have added all my cycle so i want to buy some fish, im really hoping ive sorted all the weird problems out, i have no idea what was going on but the water changes and cycle have worked miracles, funny how my LFS didnt mention how important water changes are, its so difficult to get advice on fish when all they are trying to do is sell us stuff


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

amy11 said:


> yh ive learnt my lesson and will stock more slowly this time, i have added all my cycle so i want to buy some fish, im really hoping ive sorted all the weird problems out, i have no idea what was going on but the water changes and cycle have worked miracles, funny how my LFS didnt mention how important water changes are, its so difficult to get advice on fish when all they are trying to do is sell us stuff


Just to be safe, if it were me I would get a small bottle of Seachem's *Stability* or Tetra's *SafeStart* when you buy the first fish. Smallest bottle of either. These are live nitrifying bacteria and they do work to establish the nitrifying bacteria. If I set up a tank with minimal plants I usually add this, can't hurt, and it will ensure things are fine. [Unless there is something else we haven't caught.]


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

just bought 2 fancy guppies both male, i made sure the temperature and water checks were ok, what behaviour am i looking for if theres going to be a problem? at the moment they seem to be mid to low level in the tank having a look around, is that bad? should i feed them?


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## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

When you do water changes, are you vacuuming the gravel?


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

no ive never vacuumed the gravel, they seem to be eating stuff from the heater cable maybe they think they are corys


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## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

All the fish waste and uneaten food builds up in the gravel and, in areas that don't have a rooted plant (like vals or swords), need to be vacuumed with water changes. I suspect this is where your toxic levels are coming from. I strongly suggest buying a small gravel vac and using that to do your 50% water changes. (Those 50% water changes should be done any time the ammonia or nitrite is greater than 0 or weekly, which ever comes first.)

I would also take a look at your feeding habits. Feedings should be VERY small, and all food should be eaten within 2 minutes. Any uneaten food needs to be removed immediately. How often do you feed?


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

i havent really have any fish live long enough to feed i was aiming for every other day, i hear a hungry fish is a happy fish, and they seem to be eating stuff in the tank so i doubt theyre starving


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## onemanswarm (Jan 3, 2012)

How are your parameters looking today?


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

im checking right now actually, anyone know anything about guppy behaviour, i dont think mine like each other much they swim nose to tail in tight circles and then have a mad dash about the tank


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

since the addition of my fihs today ammonia is at 0.25 nitrites 0 nitrates 20 ppm, should i do a water change to help get rid of the ammonia


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

amy11 said:


> since the addition of my fihs today ammonia is at 0.25 nitrites 0 nitrates 20 ppm, should i do a water change to help get rid of the ammonia


With live plants I wouldn't consider it necessary, but to be safe and given what's in the past, a 30% change is fine. A conditioner that detoxifies ammonia would help too, as it will change ammonia into ammonium and the plants will grab that.


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## onemanswarm (Jan 3, 2012)

amy11 said:


> im checking right now actually, anyone know anything about guppy behaviour, i dont think mine like each other much they swim nose to tail in tight circles and then have a mad dash about the tank


The Tropical Fish Profiles here are extremely helpful for getting the basics of care and behavior for many species. I just read the Guppy profile: Guppy (Poecilia reticulata) Profile and came across the following:

" Reports cite males living peacefully when there are enough of them in a tank with both open spaces and private spaces."

Assuming that you have two males, and making a slight inference from the profile, my guess is that it's likely their aggression will calm down after you've added more tankmates.

That having been said,* this is in no way a recommendation that you add more tankmates immediately* to cull the aggression. I think you're better off continuing to cycle the aquarium with two occasional sparring partners than to throw the bioload back into flux before your tank is stable, thereby risking an even worse fate! Just my opinion, for what it may be worth.


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

ok im definately not getiing any more fish till my tank is stable, i now have 2 plants so hopefully that will help, ive just changed 20% of the water considering everyone says guppies are sensitive immune systems


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## onemanswarm (Jan 3, 2012)

amy11 said:


> ok im definately not getiing any more fish till my tank is stable, i now have 2 plants so hopefully that will help, ive just changed 20% of the water considering everyone says guppies are sensitive immune systems


Good work. I bet you'll have it under control in no time!


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

i hope so ive been pulling my hair out over the last month trying to get it right


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## onemanswarm (Jan 3, 2012)

amy11 said:


> i hope so ive been pulling my hair out over the last month trying to get it right


Well, at least you know you're in good hands now! Better than listening to the varying advice of LFS clerks anyway. Basically, I would follow Byron's advice TO THE LETTER! Do that and you'll be fine.


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

i must say quite frankly im appalled at LFS at the moment ive visited 4 in my area and most dont have a clue about fish apart from tropical and coldwater, and lets be fair it is a very specialised subject andfor pet shops its all about what they can sell us, keeping fish isnt cheap and they can make a fortune from a novice selling us all sorts and keeping the simplist advice to them selves such as water changes that have saved my tank and my sanity


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## Tazman (Jan 15, 2012)

Welcome to the world of Capitalism!

Most fishes stores are like that but I am lucky on the fact I have one that actually knows what they are talking about and offer good advice.

I got very annoyed once in a store that is now closed, the guy was trying to sell a family a fish that even someone with experience would have a hard time keeping. I told them that and it was like I was being rude or something.

The manager came and politely asked if I would leave...the fact it meant nothing to them that the fish they were trying to sell would be dead very quick in the size of tank the people had, was nothing to them.


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## onemanswarm (Jan 3, 2012)

Tazman said:


> Welcome to the world of Capitalism!
> 
> Most fishes stores are like that but I am lucky on the fact I have one that actually knows what they are talking about and offer good advice.
> 
> ...


Good for you for helping that family and the fish. I guess their clerks must work on commission!


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

ok so i added my guppies yesterday and last night i had an ammonia spike from 0 to 0.25 i did a 20% water change and added some cycle to help, i tested the water again this morning and it was fine, now this afternoon my ammonia is on the rise again, any ideas whats going on? how can i stop the ammonia? is it normal? will i have to do water changes everyday now for the rest of my fishes eternity?


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## onemanswarm (Jan 3, 2012)

amy11 said:


> ok so i added my guppies yesterday and last night i had an ammonia spike from 0 to 0.25 i did a 20% water change and added some cycle to help, i tested the water again this morning and it was fine, now this afternoon my ammonia is on the rise again, any ideas whats going on? how can i stop the ammonia? is it normal? will i have to do water changes everyday now for the rest of my fishes eternity?


The more parameters you can provide the better. Do you have nitrite/nitrate numbers from the last few tests you did along with the ammonia?

Some other thoughts:
1) In your first post, you talked about cleaning the inside of the tank, the gravel, etc. Can you break that process down a bit for us? Specifically, how did you clean the tank to get it ready?

2) Do you know what plants you have? As Byron mentioned, a fast growing plant will help absorb ammonia. Maybe we can help with some recommendations.


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

i wiped out the tank with a clean cloth and washed it and the gravel in dechlorinated water, i have no idea what plants i have the were just at the pet shop saying suitable for tropical aquariums, i take it i shouldnt be getting ammonia spikes?


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

my nitrites were 0 this morning and my nitrates were 20 ppm


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

amy11 said:


> i wiped out the tank with a clean cloth and washed it and the gravel in dechlorinated water, i have no idea what plants i have the were just at the pet shop saying suitable for tropical aquariums, i take it i shouldnt be getting ammonia spikes?


I believe I have posted in a couple of your threads, and issues may be overlapping, but I can't keep everything straight so forgive me if I ask for what should be obvious.;-)

Can you post photos of the plants if you can't name them, or a link to a thread with photos? Some are better than others at assimilating ammonia. Also, have you tested the tap water for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate?


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

lol yh byron i feel that you like a challenge as you seem to find my problem threads, my tap water was all clean of ammonia and nitrites and nitrates, i will try and add photos to my albumn, can you guys see that?


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

actually they might be clear enough in the photos i have up on my aquarium log, can you guys see?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

amy11 said:


> actually they might be clear enough in the photos i have up on my aquarium log, can you guys see?


Yes, that's fine. And that answers what was in the back of my mind; those are aquarium plants so they're fine. I would get a good floating plant though, Water Sprite would be ideal as it is a big assimilator of ammonia; or the stem plants you mention in another thread, my favourite for this is Brazilian Pennywort, but others will do. Floating plants use more nutrients, i.e., ammonia.

To your earlier question, it would be natural to see a slight increase in ammonia after adding fish to this tank. The plants are few, and initially there will be ammonia. But the plants and the bacteria both will use it, so it disappears as you indicate it did. It is the re-appearance that puzzles me, but at this point I would not myself fuss over it.

Byron.


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

its hard not to fuss as i dont want to kill these fish, test results today are ammonia0.25 nitrites 0, nitrates 20 ppm, i keep doing partial changes to clear out the ammonia, do you think i need more plants? will the ammonia settle down eventually? im worried the boys keep fighting so i wanted to get females tomorrow but will this greatly increase my ammonia so its unsafe?


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## GwenInNM (Feb 2, 2011)

amy11 said:


> its hard not to fuss as i dont want to kill these fish, test results today are ammonia0.25 nitrites 0, nitrates 20 ppm, i keep doing partial changes to clear out the ammonia, do you think i need more plants? will the ammonia settle down eventually? im worried the boys keep fighting so i wanted to get females tomorrow but will this greatly increase my ammonia so its unsafe?



It would seem your tank is now cycled, as you have nitrate readings. Make sure you're not overfeeding. I wouldn't get more fish until you get 0 ammonia readings. You're almost there. Get some floating plants if you can.

Gwen


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## onemanswarm (Jan 3, 2012)

amy11 said:


> its hard not to fuss as i dont want to kill these fish, test results today are ammonia0.25 nitrites 0, nitrates 20 ppm, i keep doing partial changes to clear out the ammonia, do you think i need more plants? will the ammonia settle down eventually? im worried the boys keep fighting so i wanted to get females tomorrow but will this greatly increase my ammonia so its unsafe?


Don't do it, Amy! Listen to yourself:



amy11 said:


> ok im definately not getiing any more fish till my tank is stable


Your patience WILL be rewarded. The male guppies aren't going to kill each other with their sparring. Another big ammonia spike will be much more likely to kill them and any other fish you add. Plus, you'll want to have at least a 2:1 ratio of females to males to limit the males' aggression (3:1 would be better). That means to curb the behavior you're concerned about you would need to add no fewer than 4 females. This will DEFINITELY cause an ammonia spike! Probably to dangerous levels, especially when we're still not sure what's going on with your aquarium.

For today, don't do any partial changes and let's just see what happens. Post your test results as often as you take them and give us GH KH and pH, too.

If you are going to add anything, add floating plants! They assimilate CO2 from the surface, grow faster, and take up more ammonia. If you can't find the plants Byron suggested, you should be able to find Hornwort just about anywhere. Buy a few nice looking stems and float them at the surface of your tank.

I know it's hard because you're excited and you've been working at it a long time already, but I really think you need to pump the brakes on adding fish until that ammonia stays at 0 for at least a couple days.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I agree with Gwen and onemanswarm. Floating plants are good for this.

A caution on the guppies when this is settled: adding females will mean hundreds of fry regularly. Unless you have other tanks, or some way to get rid of them, even one batch will be more than a 10g can handle. Livebearers should be maintained males only unless you want spawning and fry. And once impregnated, a female can deliver several batches without males present.

Male infighting is normal. Lots of plants in the tank will help as it makes the space seem larger to the fish.


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

so would you suggest buying more males? i spoke to my pet shpo and they agreed theyd take the fry back if any survived the males, my ammonia is calming down nitrites still at 0 and the ammonia isnt a clear 0.25 its more like a yellow with aa green tinge thats why i think its trace ammounts


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

amy11 said:


> so would you suggest buying more males? i spoke to my pet shpo and they agreed theyd take the fry back if any survived the males, my ammonia is calming down nitrites still at 0 and the ammonia isnt a clear 0.25 its more like a yellow with aa green tinge thats why i think its trace ammounts


I really would not have females in a 10g. No matter what any store says, they are not likely going to continue accepting up to 100 fry every month, and that is what one female can produce. There is no way they will all get eaten either, so this is a considerable strain on your tank's biology. Stay with males.


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

is there anything i could do to stop the fryor anything that would eat them ? also i went to the pet store today and they had albino axelottes, kinda weird fishy lizards, what the hell are they? does anyone have them?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

amy11 said:


> is there anything i could do to stop the fryor anything that would eat them ? also i went to the pet store today and they had albino axelottes, kinda weird fishy lizards, what the hell are they? does anyone have them?


No on the fry question. The parents will eat some if they 9the fry) have no shelter like floating plants, but they would never keep up with so many. And you can't stop fish from breeding if males and females are together. Plus, once a livebearer female has been impregnated, she can deliver several consecutive broods without a male present. All this is in our profiles, you should have a read of the guppy and endler, plus also the livebearer introduction blurb.

The axolotl is _Ambystoma mexicanum, _a salamander from parts of Mexico (where I gather is is near extinction due to pollution). The reason it does not look like a normal salamander is because it is a neotenic, which means that it reaches sexual maturity without developing (metamorphose) past the larval stage. Most (but not all) amphibians [frogs & toads, salamanders which includes newts, and caecilians] hatch into a larval stage that is aquatic (like the tadpoles of frogs and toads, or efts of newts) and this form has external gills which disappear as it metamorphoses into the adult form which is terrestrial and sometimes terrestrial and aquatic. The axolotl is closely related to the Tiger Salamander of Easter North America, whose larval form looks much like the axolotl but is more commonly called a waterdog, but this species does metamorphose.


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

i think the axlotis are crazy weird but soooo cool, the boys are doing well, i managed to get some water sprite but im still having ammonia spikes


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

amy11 said:


> i think the axlotis are crazy weird but soooo cool, the boys are doing well, i managed to get some water sprite but im still having ammonia spikes


Water Sprite will help this settle. Nothing more to add at this point, I will monitor this thread if something does occur.


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

hey sorry i havent been on for a few days, i bought some more males on saturday totaling 6, i had a slight ammonia spike but for the last few days ive had ammonia 0, nitrites 0 and nitrates 20-30 ppm, however one of my fish stopped eating and the next day he had died, all the others seem fine, is this indicating a problem or was he perhaps just a poorly fish?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

amy11 said:


> hey sorry i havent been on for a few days, i bought some more males on saturday totaling 6, i had a slight ammonia spike but for the last few days ive had ammonia 0, nitrites 0 and nitrates 20-30 ppm, however one of my fish stopped eating and the next day he had died, all the others seem fine, is this indicating a problem or was he perhaps just a poorly fish?


Difficult to say amy. If this was one of the original fish, the cycling issues could have affected it; fish sometimes appear to survive cycling, but it takes a toll and down the road... . Of it can be the fish, who can tell what issues it may have suffered getting here, or what may be naturally inherent (genetic)?


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

yes he was one of the original fish, considering all my parameters are now correct and my temperature is correct im hoping ive finally got it all sorted out, fingers crossed, at last


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## onemanswarm (Jan 3, 2012)

amy11 said:


> yes he was one of the original fish, considering all my parameters are now correct and my temperature is correct im hoping ive finally got it all sorted out, fingers crossed, at last


Good job getting it cycled! Sorry about the loss; sounds like the poor guy took one for the team.


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

its been tough but well worth it, i love seeing the little guys swimming around and having fun, however i now have the fish bug and want to get another, possibly larger tank, also thinking of buying a betta, ive read so many great reviews about them, or maybe create a larger community tank, so many choices !


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

out of curiosity my gravel and center piece stone has started what seems to be dis-colouring, a slight browm/orange tinge to it, any ideas??


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

amy11 said:


> out of curiosity my gravel and center piece stone has started what seems to be dis-colouring, a slight browm/orange tinge to it, any ideas??


Probably diatoms, or brown algae as it is commonly called. This is very common in new tanks, during the first 3 or so months as the bacteria/biology has not yet stabilized. If it occurs on plant leaves, you should clean it off (it will easily rub off with your fingers during a water change). On the decor is up to you. Sometimes it will appear on the glass too, an aquarium sponge scraper run over the front glass every water change is a good idea to keep this and other algae from getting started on the glass. This type is easy to remove, but some, like green dot, is more difficult so it is best to catch it before you actually see it.

It could also just be a biofilm. All object under water will develop a biofilm on which bacteria colonize, and algae too in some cases. You won't see the biofilm on plants (unless it attracts algae), but on decor it does usually appear sort of brownish. This will not rub off easily, and I would leave it.

Byron.


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## onemanswarm (Jan 3, 2012)

amy11 said:


> its been tough but well worth it, i love seeing the little guys swimming around and having fun, however i now have the fish bug and want to get another, possibly larger tank, also thinking of buying a betta, ive read so many great reviews about them, or maybe create a larger community tank, so many choices !


I hear you! I suppose it's redundant to keep preaching patience, but I encourage you to take your time and enjoy the aquarium you just got up and running. Over time if you still have the bug, you could upgrade to a larger tank and breed your guppies, using the current tank for fry. Or you could do the community set up you talked about (spend some time researching this in advance). I've learned first hand that Bettas are much more interesting than I'd ever given them credit for. They will NOT get along with guppies unfortunately (a little too similar in appearance it seems), but they can be included in a community set up with carefully researched tankmates. You can also keep a single betta in a small tank, but the experts here will encourage you to give it at least 5g of space and a heater.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

onemanswarm said:


> I hear you! I suppose it's redundant to keep preaching patience, but I encourage you to take your time and enjoy the aquarium you just got up and running. Over time if you still have the bug, you could upgrade to a larger tank and breed your guppies, using the current tank for fry. Or you could do the community set up you talked about (spend some time researching this in advance). I've learned first hand that Bettas are much more interesting than I'd ever given them credit for. They will NOT get along with guppies unfortunately (a little too similar in appearance it seems), but they can be included in a community set up with carefully researched tankmates. You can also keep a single betta in a small tank, but the experts here will encourage you to give it at least 5g of space and a heater.


I wouldn't otherwise, but as Amy is "thinking" of a Betta, I will interpose.:lol:

I do not recommend male Betta with any other fish. In my view, which is shared by many biologists and aquarists, they are not community fish. Not only might the Betta go after other fish, but many "peaceful" fish will turn into real fin nippers when in with a Betta. They deserve their own space, a 5g is fine, well planted.

Yes, they can sometimes work--but it is a risk. I have learned some of my lessons the hard way, and one of these is not to chance a fish that carries the risk of likely trouble. Nine out of ten times, it will result. And the stress to the other fish can be significant.

Byron.


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## onemanswarm (Jan 3, 2012)

Byron said:


> I wouldn't otherwise, but as Amy is "thinking" of a Betta, I will interpose.:lol:
> 
> I do not recommend male Betta with any other fish. In my view, which is shared by many biologists and aquarists, they are not community fish. Not only might the Betta go after other fish, but many "peaceful" fish will turn into real fin nippers when in with a Betta. They deserve their own space, a 5g is fine, well planted.
> 
> ...


Amy, please listen to Byron and not to me!

Byron, I appreciate the interposition although it does put a serious damper on my plans to eventually add a shoal of tetras into the present mix! Your advice will not be taken lightly, yet it does run contrary to the opinions of many vocal contributors in the Betta forum where I originally sought insights on this topic. I feel compelled to bump some month old threads over there and have a quick word with them.

BTW, please don't ever hesitate to interject if you catch me spreading dubious information in the forum. I'm here for the education first and foremost.


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## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

Wow! That was really awesome, onemanswarm! That made me smile. I love it when we can be polite, intelligent people on forums.
As opinionated and outspoken as I am, I hope I can humbly accept when I am wrong just as much as I hope that, when I'm 'right', I'm understood not as being 'right' but, most importantly, as being helpful and having good intentions. My goals on this forum, both of equal importance, are to learn and to help all beings be at ease.



Group hug?


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## GwenInNM (Feb 2, 2011)

amy11 said:


> its been tough but well worth it, i love seeing the little guys swimming around and having fun, however i now have the fish bug and want to get another, possibly larger tank, also thinking of buying a betta, ive read so many great reviews about them, or maybe create a larger community tank, so many choices !



Amy,

I added a female betta to my community tank, really because her eyes were so soulful when I saw her in a cup at PetCo. At first I never even saw her in the tank. She was obviously intimated by the more active fish, but I do have lots of plants and hiding spots. After about 2 weeks, she is always out and is doing great. I don't know about females with guppies though. I have to agree with other posts, they are more interesting than I thought too, but I tell myself, no more. One is fine :-D

Look for a small 5 gal on Craigslist and keep a male by himself if you want a male. If your patient, you'll find a set up ready to go, that you can get to cheap.

Gwen


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## onemanswarm (Jan 3, 2012)

MinaMinaMina said:


> Wow! That was really awesome, onemanswarm! That made me smile. I love it when we can be polite, intelligent people on forums.
> As opinionated and outspoken as I am, I hope I can humbly accept when I am wrong just as much as I hope that, when I'm 'right', I'm understood not as being 'right' but, most importantly, as being helpful and having good intentions. My goals on this forum, both of equal importance, are to learn and to help all beings be at ease.
> 
> 
> ...


Very well said! I fear I'm guilty of trying to partake in the latter without first sufficiently partaking in the former!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Gwen mentions a female Betta, that is a very different thing. In my earlier post i said no male Betta with other fish. Male Betta, or Siamese Fighting Fish, are bred to be nasty. I did have a male Betta many years ago, and he ate neon tetra voraciously.

I stay out of the Betta forum since I have no interest in that fish plus all the time I have is spent here. But when you get some action on this issue, let me know and I'll take a look. 

I don't know how many biologists are over there, but I have several behind my views and here's an example. I posted this article a while back, on the 10 worst community fish, from Practical Fishkeeping; the male Betta is included.
The 10 worst community fish of all time | Blog | Practical Fishkeeping

There was a similar-themed article in TFH back it would take me some time to track it down. My friend, Matt Ford, a UK biologist and owner of Seriously Fish, says, "There is some debate as to whether the species makes a good community fish or not. In general, we think it's best suited to a species tank."
Siamese fighting fish (Betta splendens) - Seriously Fish

As with most fish, there are always exceptions to the norm. But to me the best approach is to accept the norm as the most probable. If one has a room of a dozen fish tanks, and wants to experiment with fish, that may work as there will be space to move problem fish. But for most hobbyists on TFK, with just one community tank, setting themselves up for a problem is not wise. The fish will be the losers.


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

i would not add a betta to a community tank as ive read they can find fish with long fins(such as guppies) a threat, i would keep it seperately,also i have some bad news ive lost yet another guppy, he was one of the first into my tank and all others seem fine and are eating and lively, im beginning to loose the will to live as all my water perameters are fine and the temp is correct, help? and i havent yet worked out what the brown stuff is, its on my decor and gravel


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

> ive lost yet another Guppy, he was one of the first into my tank and all others seem fine and are eating and lively, im beginning to loose the will to live as all my water perameters are fine and the temp is correct, help? and i havent yet worked out what the brown stuff is, its on my decor and gravel


Amy, I think this was answered by me and probably others in another thread? Try not to duplicate issues in two or more threads, because it makes it difficult for people like me to keep it all straight in my mind.:doh!:

If not, let me know and I'll respond.;-)

Byron.


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## onemanswarm (Jan 3, 2012)

Amy,

Below are Byron's responses to your questions as they appear earlier in the thread. Bottom line, the loss of those two fish is not that surprising since they undoubtedly took a heavy toll from the cycling process. I'd expect the new batch of fish to fare much better. The brown stuff is not unusual either. Byron details some of the usual suspects for you below:



Byron said:


> Difficult to say amy. If this was one of the original fish, the cycling issues could have affected it; fish sometimes appear to survive cycling, but it takes a toll and down the road... . Of it can be the fish, who can tell what issues it may have suffered getting here, or what may be naturally inherent (genetic)?





Byron said:


> Probably diatoms, or brown algae as it is commonly called. This is very common in new tanks, during the first 3 or so months as the bacteria/biology has not yet stabilized. If it occurs on plant leaves, you should clean it off (it will easily rub off with your fingers during a water change). On the decor is up to you. Sometimes it will appear on the glass too, an aquarium sponge scraper run over the front glass every water change is a good idea to keep this and other algae from getting started on the glass. This type is easy to remove, but some, like green dot, is more difficult so it is best to catch it before you actually see it.
> 
> It could also just be a biofilm. All object under water will develop a biofilm on which bacteria colonize, and algae too in some cases. You won't see the biofilm on plants (unless it attracts algae), but on decor it does usually appear sort of brownish. This will not rub off easily, and I would leave it.
> 
> Byron.


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

hey guys sorry ive been off for while but lifes hectic, the brown stuff is spreading so im assuming its algae its on everything, my filter, glass, gravel etc, when i did a water change i wiped some off easy enough but it came back, how do i get rid of it?


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## onemanswarm (Jan 3, 2012)

amy11 said:


> hey guys sorry ive been off for while but lifes hectic, the brown stuff is spreading so im assuming its algae its on everything, my filter, glass, gravel etc, when i did a water change i wiped some off easy enough but it came back, how do i get rid of it?


Someone here will be able to provide more details, but I'll take a stab at answering in the meantime. The bottom line for controlling algae is balancing nutrients. Two easy steps you can try for starters:
1) cut the duration of light
2) avoid overfeeding

If you don't have plants, you can leave the light off altogether for awhile and see if that helps control the bloom. You might think about adding plants as their ability to assimilate nutrients will help prevent algae. If you already do have plants, put your light on a timer and slowly cut back the duration until you find the right balance. For me, 10 hours appears to be the magic number in a moderately planted tank. 

Good luck, Amy.

NOTE: I explicitly invite the more seasoned members of the forum to mercilessly contradict anything erroneous in the theoretical advice I've heretofore espoused.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Onemanswarm is correct but with respect to green algae. We're dealing here with diatoms (presumably, as it is brown and easily comes off).

This is common in new tanks for 3 months or so. The common "algae" eating fish will handle this, otos, Farlowella, Whiptails, Bristlenose pleco, etc. But I do not recommend getting any fish just for this, as this can create other issues. I only mention these since if you have them or want any of them as fish, they will handle diatoms.

Once the tank stability is achieved, diatoms should not reappear. If they do, then it may be due to silicates in the tap water and/or low light. Which is why turning off the light will only make this worse. Silicates is more of a concern; silica sand for instance will promote these in many situations, and silicates (a mineral) can be present in tap water. If asked, I can dig out some info on this. But I'm assuming this is a fairly new tank, so this is a temporary issue and I previously suggested methods to deal with it.

Byron.


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

I spoke to my pet shop and they advised some sort of catfish" occinous" or something I can't remember exactly , to eat the algae, as it's brown algae they say light won't affect it but if I can't clean it out of the tank entirely it will keep coming back, is this correct? Are they just trying to sell me more fish? I'm pretty sure I dont over feed as I only have the 4 guppies I feed every other day and my water parameters are always correct now, so should I buy the catfish ? Or wait and see what happens


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

amy11 said:


> I spoke to my pet shop and they advised some sort of catfish" occinous" or something I can't remember exactly , to eat the algae, as it's brown algae they say light won't affect it but if I can't clean it out of the tank entirely it will keep coming back, is this correct? Are they just trying to sell me more fish? I'm pretty sure I dont over feed as I only have the 4 guppies I feed every other day and my water parameters are always correct now, so should I buy the catfish ? Or wait and see what happens


Adding fish means adding to the bioload. And I am not an advocate of adding fish just for this or that, unless of course you actually want the fish as a fish, and the "help" is a bonus. Otos need company, 3 or more, and do better in soft water which is not what livebearers can handle.

Also, if this is tempeorary (as in new tanks during first 3-4 months) it should dissappear. If it is present in an established tank, the cause should be discovered and dealt with. Silicates (a mineral) in the water are often responsible, and there are ways of dealing with that.


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## amy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

Shall I assume it is because it's a fairly new tank then and see what happens?


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## Tazman (Jan 15, 2012)

It sounds like diatoms.

As per Byrons response earlier in the thread, it will clear over time and can be beneficial to some fish.

If it is getting quite bad, then as mentioned, a simple clean will remove it.

Reducing the duration your lights are on as well can help it from spreading any more.

A Bristlenose Pleco will help to clear some of it, they stay small as well.


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