# Need..........HELP!!



## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

First mistake, I *THINK* was to listen to an employee at our local Petsmart! The guy has seemed like he knew what he was talking about AND since I'm NEW at this, I followed what he said. Actually, him and a co-worker of his told me to do the fish-in cycling with two Rosy Red Minnows. 

Anyway, here goes (little long, but not bad):

Took some water to the store this past Sunday for testing. He told me that it was time to vac the gravel, which in turn would take water out (water change). He also told me that I didn't need the two minnows anymore that my tank was cycled. He said this b/c I told him our water was "crystal clear". 

Yesterday I took everything, except one live plant out (including the minnows), and vacuumed the gravel w/the hand-held suction thing we bought. It was my first time doing this, so don't know if I done it completely right, but did see junk going into the bucket with the water. Ended up taking out around two gallons of water. Along w/1 swim-thru décor, put one artificial plant back in (had taken out 3) and put another live plant in. Also have a Moss Ball and a Betta Grass Pad in it. Anyway, already had 2 gallons of room-temperature tap water, so put that in, along with 4 drops of Prime (2 drops per gallon). The water was cloudy for a little while and then completely cleared up to "crystal clear" again. 

I tested the water this AM at home w/API Strips......WON'T get these again! Ammonia was high as well as Nitrate! Too high! Also, took a sample of water to Petsmart and a girl checked it this time. She told me that I needed a water change. My Ammonia and Nitrate and Nitrite (think that's what she said) was too high. Told her that I done a gravel vac yesterday along with replacing 2 gallons of water and adding 4 drops of Prime. She told me to add 4 more drops of Prime to help the water. Also, gave the two minnows back to the store. When I got home, I added 4 more drops of Prime. 

Did we take the minnows out to soon? Was there bacteria on the artificial plants, that I didn't put back in? Right now, it looks like we needed to keep the minnows in there longer. If the water numbers don't get better, what do we do? Get two more minnows? Was planning on getting our Betta this Friday, but not with water like this!


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

It can take up to six weeks to properly cycle a tank. I suggest you purchase an API Master Liquid Freshwater Test Kit and some liquid ammonia. Dose the ammonia to 4ppm (using your test kit to monitor) and let the tank run. You will need to re-dose the ammonia everytime it falls to keep it at a constant 4ppm. You will eventually get a Nitrite spike, then start getting Nitrates. Once you can dose 4ppm of ammonia 3 days in a row and have no ammonia or nitrites just nitrates, your tank is cycled. Do a water change to get your nitrates down and you'll be ready to add your fish.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

How big is your tank?


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

It's the Marineland Eclipse Hex 5, 5 gallon w/carbon cartridge filter and BIO Wheel.



Flint said:


> How big is your tank?


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

Just seems like a lot of "dosing" and "checking" to us. With the minnows, you simple feed, test water and do water changes. The minnows do the rest!



Flint said:


> It can take up to six weeks to properly cycle a tank. I suggest you purchase an API Master Liquid Freshwater Test Kit and some liquid ammonia. Dose the ammonia to 4ppm (using your test kit to monitor) and let the tank run. You will need to re-dose the ammonia everytime it falls to keep it at a constant 4ppm. You will eventually get a Nitrite spike, then start getting Nitrates. Once you can dose 4ppm of ammonia 3 days in a row and have no ammonia or nitrites just nitrates, your tank is cycled. Do a water change to get your nitrates down and you'll be ready to add your fish.


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## sandybottom (Nov 29, 2012)

you can also use fish food or a salad shrimp to add ammonia to the tank.


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

With the minnows, it's an inhumane way to cycle the tank as they are literally being poisoned by their own waste in order to cycle your tank. There is a high possibility of them dying in the process, not to mention the long term effects it can have on them. People will cycle their tanks this way, but personally I think risking the life of the fish isn't worth it when you can just pick up a bottle of ammonia at a hardware store and use that.

Cycling a tank with ammonia is no harder than the regular maintenance a fish tank requires (in terms of checking water parameters regularly, weekly water changes, trimming plants, feeding fish, etc.) 

Pet store employees often don't know much about the animals they sell, they're just trying to make a quick buck. Most of it is said I believe in ignorance, as they receive poor training and often only have word of mouth myths as their 'knowledge'. 

The API Liquid Master Test Kit (Amazon.com: API Freshwater Master Test Kit: Pet Supplies) provides reliable results (the strips are reportedly not nearly as accurate, and are more expensive in the long run. That kit will last for years) and will allow you to test your water at home, instead of running to the pet shop every time you need it done.

Beneficial bacteria is on every surface of the tank. The glass, the filter media, the decor. 

The clarity of the water has nothing to do with whether or not the tank is cycled.


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## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

You don't need the minnows in there just feed an empty tank 2 flakes per day to get your cycle started. When ammonia and nitrite read 0 , and nitrAte is being produced, your cycled.


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

Well, let me say this now: 

*I didn't do this Thread to debate people* about fish-in cycling or to read how terrible the advice is that workers give at pet stores or what products not to use.

I know there are people out there in forum websites that do the fish-in cycling......I've heard from them. Don't hear much from them, b/c they know the procedure isn't popular today, *BUT* it is *THEIR* decision to do it. Fish lovers don't want to hear about people buying/feeding minnows to their ducks or turtles, but it's done. 

It is true that *SOME* employees at pet stores give bad advice, but some give good advice as well! We've had one guy give us bad advice. At least we "THINK" he did. We found out that a lot of these employees have aquariums of their own at home. So, they are giving advice to customers about what they do w/their own aquariums. This isn't just some BS they've thought up. Right or wrong, they knew MORE than wife/I did starting out! We knew basically nothing! But, their advice can really conflict with folks on forums. 

As far as the products sold......big pet stores will test tank water for free and they use Tetra Strips. People who see this done, will likely buy the Strips. These people think, "if the pet store uses them, they can't be that inaccurate!" From our current experience, the API Strips aren't as accurate as the Tetra Strips are. As far as the Master Kit goes, new folks to the "fish world" will most likely think they are too involved. Don't know why the Betta Grass Pad is sold if it tears the heck out of Betta's fins, like implied it does. However, there are lots of products sold in stores that people can't figure out why.

I mean, really folks, new people to the "aquarium" thing who *DON'T KNOW* anyone who does this, pretty much have to go by what pet stores tell them weither the advice is good or bad. 

Anyway, this is what was in my thoughts.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

If you want to keep a healthy, happy fish, proper readings are essential and you won't get them if you continue the use of strips. A liquid test kit really is needed. If you want to do a fish in cycle (I recently did because I am pregnant and can't play with ammonia) then go get your betta and a small bottle of Tetra SafeStart. Use the ENTIRE bottle of the safestart and just wait. It won't let your ammonia, nitrites or nitrates get high enough to harm your fish and you should be cycled in 2-4 weeks. Clean out the tank and replace all of the water. You have to wait 24 hours after using water conditioner to add the TSS for it to work properly.


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## Crazyfish (Feb 3, 2014)

I don't see much wrong with using fish to cycle a tank... especially hardy cold water fish. Just keep doing water changes and let the tank be home for a fish for a month or two. Used to keep fish in fish bowls when we were kids and all we did was change the water... no air or filtration!


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## Radar (Nov 15, 2013)

Crazyfish said:


> I don't see much wrong with using fish to cycle a tank... especially hardy cold water fish. Just keep doing water changes and let the tank be home for a fish for a month or two. Used to keep fish in fish bowls when we were kids and all we did was change the water... no air or filtration!


I agree with this post. I have a hard time with the term "inhumane" being tossed around. I think you can do a fish in cycling and be humane about it. You do need to carefully monitor your waters chemistry (using a liquid test kit preferably) and keep up with water changes to prevent toxic levels of ammonia. The fish will be fine if doing this. I also have no problem with fishless cycling and agree that if done this way obviously there are no fish at possible risk. Never the less both if done properly are "humane". JMO


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## beaslbob (Oct 17, 2012)

you might try anacharis (a live plant). It really sucks out the ammonia and carbon dioxide while returning oxygen.

my .02


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

Fish-in can be done humanely but fish bowls are absolutely cruel and inhumane. Advocating their use for something other than shrimp is just inappropriate. 

Bob, plants do not fix everything. He needs a cycled tank, not plants. Plants aren't miracles and can do more harm than good if not cared for properly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

Just buy two or three "hardy" Minnows, like what we had (Rosy Red's) or Zebra Danio's, which are recommended for fish-in cycling. Why buy the "fish to keep" to do the cycling? Many people use these minnows for this purpose. The pet store will take them back and whatever they do with them is up to them. When we took back the two Rosy Red's, they were very healthy and had pooped quite a bit in the container we had them in when we returned them. 



Flint said:


> If you want to keep a healthy, happy fish, proper readings are essential and you won't get them if you continue the use of strips. A liquid test kit really is needed. If you want to do a fish in cycle (I recently did because I am pregnant and can't play with ammonia) then go get your betta and a small bottle of Tetra SafeStart. Use the ENTIRE bottle of the safestart and just wait. It won't let your ammonia, nitrites or nitrates get high enough to harm your fish and you should be cycled in 2-4 weeks. Clean out the tank and replace all of the water. You have to wait 24 hours after using water conditioner to add the TSS for it to work properly.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

You could do that too but when using TSS it won't let the water get bad enough to harm your fish. It'll keep the possibility of disease being contracted into your betta from the minnows down and is safe for your betta.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Austin (Feb 1, 2010)

To answer one of your questions you asked that nobody else addressed: the beneficial bacteria will mostly be in your filter, not your plants or aquarium ornaments.


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## Crazyfish (Feb 3, 2014)

Austin said:


> To answer one of your questions you asked that nobody else addressed: the beneficial bacteria will mostly be in your filter, not your plants or aquarium ornaments.


Should be everywhere...especially along the floor of the tank, but yes, there will be a lot in the filter where all the crud is. Which is why it's not a good idea to clean the floor and the filter around the same time.


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

We have the carbon cartridge filter w/ BIO Wheel and the BIO Wheel is where the beneficial bacteria would be mostly. Was told NOT to clean or change that. The filter itself can/should be changed and we did that a week ago. It was in the tank for a couple of weeks and didn't look very good. Was also told NOT TO rinse off the décor after taking out to vac the gravel b/c there would be some beneficial bacteria on them. 

I will be doing a Strips water test today and will put the results in this Thread. In fact, will be doing Strips test today, tomorrow and Friday and then decide what to do if the water perimeters don't get better. 

You guys are being a *GREAT* help and THANKS for that!



Austin said:


> To answer one of your questions you asked that nobody else addressed: the beneficial bacteria will mostly be in your filter, not your plants or aquarium ornaments.


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## sandybottom (Nov 29, 2012)

I mean said:


> DON'T KNOW[/B] anyone who does this, pretty much have to go by what pet stores tell them weither the advice is good or bad..


i disagree with this.there is always the option to do research.this should be done when purchasing any animal. just because a pet store employee keeps fish,hardly makes them informed.there are degrees of knowledge.ultimately,these are your fish and it is up to you to take care of them,not the pet stores.and it is easy to find contradictory advice from employees at the same store.it is their job to sell their product over everything else.in a perfect world we would have well informed employees all the time.this is not the case in the real world.i can not blame a highschool/college kid working at a pet store for the failure i experience in my tank.it is up to me to educate myself. being on a forum you are going to get contradictory advice as well.the trick is to take it in stride.listen to advice and do further research on that advice. what works for one person will be the death of another persons entire tank. this hobby is scientifically centered. water maintenance is truly a science in itself. fish-in or fishless cycling is up to you.just make sure you are fully aware of the pitfalls that accompany both methods.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

Your tank won't cycle without an ammonia source. Your bacteria has died off
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

Actually, I done quite a bit of research after buying the tank. Read an article online about fish-in cycling and wife/I decided to do it that way. Anyway, I'm *retired* and *have the time* to research and love using a computer. A lot of folks *don't like *computers or *don't want* to take the time to do the researching.......so, that's when it's left up to the store employees to recommend things that are asked of them.



sandybottom said:


> i disagree with this.there is always the option to do research.this should be done when purchasing any animal. just because a pet store employee keeps fish,hardly makes them informed.there are degrees of knowledge.ultimately,these are your fish and it is up to you to take care of them,not the pet stores.and it is easy to find contradictory advice from employees at the same store.it is their job to sell their product over everything else.in a perfect world we would have well informed employees all the time.this is not the case in the real world.i can not blame a highschool/college kid working at a pet store for the failure i experience in my tank.it is up to me to educate myself. being on a forum you are going to get contradictory advice as well.the trick is to take it in stride.listen to advice and do further research on that advice. what works for one person will be the death of another persons entire tank. this hobby is scientifically centered. water maintenance is truly a science in itself. fish-in or fishless cycling is up to you.just make sure you are fully aware of the pitfalls that accompany both methods.


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## sandybottom (Nov 29, 2012)

the point i was trying to make is that the research should be done before the purchase.glad you will have the time to devote to learning about these wonderful creatures.i enjoy the learning as much as the keeping aspect of the hobby.it is a good way to pass the time,especially if you are an insomniac like me.;-)


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## Crazyfish (Feb 3, 2014)

True, but you can read about driving a car but you won't really get experience until you actually drive it!


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

Well, the fish/aquarium department employee at Petsmart told us about this Marineland Hex 5 and just how good the filter/BIO Wheel was. We knew we wanted a male Betta and seen a discount ad for a Betta Bowl w/light, but after looking at that, I knew we wanted something bigger. There was a 10 gallon, but we decided on the 5 gallon b/c of it's Modern looks. 

Actually, I wonder how many people do do research before buying? Not very many b/c while waiting for help, have overheard people asking different questions to the Petsmart employee about fish and aquariums. Obviously, THEY didn't do any before-purchase research!



sandybottom said:


> the point i was trying to make is that the research should be done before the purchase.glad you will have the time to devote to learning about these wonderful creatures.i enjoy the learning as much as the keeping aspect of the hobby.it is a good way to pass the time,especially if you are an insomniac like me.;-)


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## jimscott (Jan 24, 2014)

When I worked for a wholesaler, part of my responsibility was to deliver fish and hardlines to the pet shops in our area. There were family run businesses and chainstore establishments. Generally speaking places like Petsmart, Doktor Pet, and the like, tended to specialize in birds, cats, dogs, etc... and had fish as, secondarily. The people that worked there tended to have minimal fish keeping experience. Conversely, the family run businesses tended to be true hobbyists, with much more experience with fish. The tanks looked cleaner and healthier, and their advice was more sound and had more depth.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Crazyfish said:


> Should be everywhere...especially along the floor of the tank, but yes, there will be a lot in the filter where all the crud is. Which is why it's not a good idea to clean the floor and the filter around the same time.



Yes, the bacteria lives on every surface in the tank. The filter and the substrate being the two most significant colonies.

The bacteria is stuck on the substrate pretty well - a siphon isn't going to suck it off.

All the concern about not doing this and not doing that only applies to new aquariums. Once they are established you can do almost anything and not screw things up. But I do agree - in a new aquarium the best thing you can do is nothing at all.


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

ClassicRocker said:


> Actually, I wonder how many people do do research before buying? Not very many b/c while waiting for help, have overheard people asking different questions to the Petsmart employee about fish and aquariums. Obviously, THEY didn't do any before-purchase research!


i never did….i went to the shop and made my choice…paid my money
and took the fish home to die :-(


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## Radar (Nov 15, 2013)

I know from experience that chain stores or Ma & Pop local fish stores it is not one size fits all. For instance in my particular area the tanks in Petco are maintained much better than the locally owned business. The employees vary. Some very knowledgeable and helpful some not so. Both businesses are in business to sell you something so that's a draw. When we say that chain stores "just want to sell you something" and to think lfs don't is naïve. I before I retired both managed a practice and in the past owned two businesses. I would not mislead or misrepresent a product , but I certainly wanted a sale.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Yes, it's naive to think the LFS isn't trying to make sales. In reality, they have a GREATER incentive to sell you a bill of goods because they don't have corporate finances behind them, or other pet departments within the store to bolster the business. I think a lot of people have this fairy tale view of the LFS, not realizing that many are fighting for their lives to stay in business. I'm sure it's a tough position to be in.

I mean, in a way if they want to provide for the needs of the more experienced keepers then they have to do it at the expense of newbies since they are the ones buying tanks and filters and whatever garbage the sales people can get them to buy. THEY keep the lights on....


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

So, *without a doubt*, the API Master Freshwater Test Kit is the best........right? Even for Beginner's, like us, it is *THE BEST*?

Ok, what about Prime Water Conditioner? Used it (4 eye dropper drops) on Monday when doing about a 50% water change w/vacuuming of the gravel and putting another live plant in. Put 4 more drops in yesterday.......advised by Petsmart after water test done.

Today (few minutes ago), looked at water and seen junk floating around. Looked like tiny pieces of fish flake. Done a 20% water change and added Conditioner. Research online yesterday, said to put a flake or two in to get bacteria going. So, I did. After checking water at Petsmart, told worker that I put flakes in and she told me to take them out.......don't want them, the test results said that. So, I used a baster and took as many as I could see laying on the gravel. Only had to add 8 oz. of water. 

Now what? Just wait and check water tonight?


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

API freshwater master kit is not the best, but it's a good kit. There are other tests that are more accurate... If accuracy is something that's important to you. In my opinion, as long as you aren't getting false positives the test is fine. Whether you have .25ppm ammonia or .5 ppm is irrelevant, as you'll be doing the same thing in either case - water change and dose with water conditioner. Yes, the test results will give you an idea of how much water needs to be changed, but unless there's a huge difference it's not going to make a difference.

All in all it's a great kit to have for those that want to test their water. Personally, I would like to see more tests considering they call it a "master" kit.


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

there is a true master kit I'm sure,and you can buy it from amazon
i believe, and probably plenty of other places…it's looks a little bit like
a mans briefcase,and its packed with lots more than the mini


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

If one really wanted to keep tabs on them, in addition to the master kit (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH), one would need to get GH and KH, as well as phosphate, TDS (total dissolved solids) and probably a couple of others. I think the GH and KH should be included in the "master" kit.

Says the guy that never tests for anything


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

You NEED a source of ammonia to cycle the tank. If you keep removing the fish flakes, they won't break down and produce ammonia, which, as you know, provides food for the bacteria we are trying to grow. Prime is an EXCELLENT choice in water conditioner. There are kits out there much better than API Master but you will be paying a pretty penny for them. API is the best, most available and affordable choice.


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

Ok, here are the very latest few minutes ago) water perimeters from testing with the API Strips here at home:

Nitrate: between 80 and 160
Nitrite: 10
pH: 7.5
Ammonia: 0.5
(hope our eyes are comparing the strips with the color code on the container right)

What are these numbers mean???? Do we need a pinch of fish flake?
Thanks!


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

Yes, add some fish food. Your cycle is coming along well. When you have no ammonia or nitrites, just nitrates, it means your tank is cycled. Do a water change at this point to bring your nitrates down and you can go get your fish. Nitrates should stay under 20ppm at all times once your tank is cycled. You remove them through water changes. I wouldn't do any more water changes until you get 0 for ammonia and nitrites.


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

Funny, you and another Replier (different forum) told me the cycling is coming along, while another replier told me "you tank is not cycling and the strips are faulty. Get the Master Kit ASAP!" You did tell me to add some fish food while the other Replier who's comments match yours, didn't say that. 



Flint said:


> Yes, add some fish food. Your cycle is coming along well. When you have no ammonia or nitrites, just nitrates, it means your tank is cycled. Do a water change at this point to bring your nitrates down and you can go get your fish. Nitrates should stay under 20ppm at all times once your tank is cycled. You remove them through water changes. I wouldn't do any more water changes until you get 0 for ammonia and nitrites.


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## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

Definitely looks like your cycle is coming along. But its also true that you're not fully cycled yet. You're getting stuck a little at the nitrite stage, but you are producing nitrate, which is good.


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

Thursday 7:45AM: Just checked the water perimeters with API Strips and the* readings haven't changed from last night!* *Same as below*. 

We did crush up a piece of fish flake last night and put into tank, but no change in water perimeters.

Looks like we will be getting two more of the "hardy" minnows. Had Rosy Red's last time, but read that Zebra Danio's can handle the cycling as well. 
Wondering.....put in two minnows like last time, or put in three this time? *BTW, it's a 5 gallon aquarium.*

Wife is now helping me with comparing the test strips to the color coding chart on the strips container. At our age, 2 sets of eyes are better than one set! LOL, but true!





ClassicRocker said:


> Ok, here are the very latest few minutes ago) water perimeters from testing with the API Strips here at home:
> 
> Nitrate: between 80 and 160
> Nitrite: 10
> ...


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

I would personally go with three, but I like to maximize the bioload I can put on the tank. Make sure you get ALL of the fish food out of the bottom before adding the fish. You're going to be doing daily water changes with a fish-in cycle unless you use TSS just so you're aware.


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

Will use TSS, but, during the time (2 1/2 weeks) we had the other minnows in it, we only done one water change (10%) and my water perimeter readings were fine. Will probably go with three. 



Flint said:


> I would personally go with three, but I like to maximize the bioload I can put on the tank. Make sure you get ALL of the fish food out of the bottom before adding the fish. You're going to be doing daily water changes with a fish-in cycle unless you use TSS just so you're aware.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

Despite what the bottle says, use the entire thing. Even suck up some tank water and squirt it back out to make sure you get as much as possible. It'll temporarily cloud your tank but should be clear again by 24 hours. It won't work if you have used Prime within 24 hours of adding it and you cannot do water changes for at least 14 days.


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

Below was told me by a forum member. Does it sound ok? I mean, for those that aren't against fish-in cycling, that is.


"In this case if you going to finish the cycle with the 2 minnows i would suggest you do 50% water change to reduce the nirites and nitrAtes, then wait 24 hours for the water conditioner to ware off (really not less then 24 hours). Add Tetra Safe Start (small bottle is enough for your tank, put it all in you can't overdose) shake the bottle very well before adding, and head to the LFS to get the fish.

Then don't touch the tank for 2 weeks, and feed moderately.

I believe its the simplest way to go that will cause you less trouble"


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

That sounds good except i would go get the fish, add them, THEN add the TSS. I don't like bacteria that will die without an ammonia source sitting in the tank without one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

I would amend that to say feed extremely lightly, but that's it.

good advice IMO.


Oh, and the size of the water change is a function of your test results. If you have 1 ppm of ammonia you'll need to do more than a 50% change to get it to an acceptable level.


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

i cycled with fish,i added a product called 'cycle' and i continued to
use it until i was happy with my water levels,and the fish were ok.
seems ok with me,keep a close eye on your fish as they are indicators
if something is wrong…..just because the water looks good does not mean
that it is.
if you have any friends near to you that have aquariums,ask them
for a donation of filter media…it would be very beneficial to you.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

Cycle doesn't contain bacteria. It's an aid not a cycle in a bottle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

yes that's right
bio spira ? is supposed to be a good product.
i'd still try and get some media from someone else though.


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

A forum member (different forum) told me just get the Betta b/c the Safe Start or QuickStart would protect it. I don't think so.......if something does go wrong, I rather have it happen with minnows that we don't want rather than a Betta we do want. Now, *if convinced enough *that the Safe Start or QuickStart would work with the Betta, I consider getting the Betta now. 

For those telling me to get a piece of media.........pet stores don't do that and we don't know anyone who owns an aquarium. If we did know someone, I probably wouldn't be here with this problem! Sounds logical to us.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

I haven't personally used QuickStart. TSS I have used and trust. In the end, it's about what you're most comfortable with whether it be minnows or the betta.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

Unlike some others, it doesn't bother me to use the minnows for cycling. Some people use the fish they want to keep for cycling......I'm not convinced enough that TSS or QuickStart would protect it. Rosy Red's and Zebra Danio's are more durable than a Betta is. 



Flint said:


> I haven't personally used QuickStart. TSS I have used and trust. In the end, it's about what you're most comfortable with whether it be minnows or the betta.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

You'd be surprised. Bettas, IMO are 10x hardier than minnows or danios. I've seen bettas live two years in 1/4 gallon with water changes only when you can no longer see the fish. But again, it's all up to you. They are your fish and if you're more comfortable with minnows, then do minnows.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

ClassicRocker said:


> Unlike some others, it doesn't bother me to use the minnows for cycling. Some people use the fish they want to keep for cycling......I'm not convinced enough that TSS or QuickStart would protect it. *Rosy Red's and Zebra Danio's are more durable than a Betta is.*



Yeah, not necessarily. Your assumption is that you are getting healthy rosy reds which considering their purpose and how they are kept, is not exactly a wise one. Bettas are pretty tough fish.

I do agree though that some fish can handle stress better than others. What I don't agree with is the attitude that "it's okay because it's just a rosy red". Not saying that that is your attitude, but I often see remarks like that as if it's better to mistreat a feeder fish than a "real" fish


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

I understand, I do. *BUT*, while in Petsmart a couple of weeks ago, a lady bought 30 Rosy Red Minnows to feed to her ducks. Now, I'm pretty sure that duck feed is sold somewhere, but she chose these. A guy in another forum told me that his turtle loves these minnows. Again, I know that turtle food is sold, but he buys these minnows as well. I don't think there are any other fish, besides minnows, being sold for cycling or feeding, but these. 
If we bought a BEAUTIFUL Betta and something happened to it, I'd be upset for not using the minnows.



jaysee said:


> Yeah, not necessarily. Your assumption is that you are getting healthy rosy reds which considering their purpose and how they are kept, is not exactly a wise one. Bettas are pretty tough fish.
> 
> I do agree though that some fish can handle stress better than others. What I don't agree with is the attitude that "it's okay because it's just a rosy red". Not saying that that is your attitude, but I often see remarks like that as if it's better to mistreat a feeder fish than a "real" fish


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## Snoeflayke (Mar 3, 2013)

As a PetSmart employee, I recommend against using minnows. Rosey red minnows are highly likely to carry bacterial diseases and parasites. By putting them in the tank first, you are possibly seeding your tank with these.

All 12 of my bettas were added to tanks cycled with TSS, some added the same day the tank was set up.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Guppies are a very popular feeder fish as well. My point is that ANY fish can be a feeder fish. Including bettas.

Too, IMO it's better for a fish to be eaten than poisoned possibly to death. I work on a fishing boat - trust me I have no problem whatsoever with people feeding feeders. My issue is the idea that they are less of a fish because of what they are used for. I mean, that's the same mentality slave owners had....


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## Crazyfish (Feb 3, 2014)

Use whatever will get your tank cycled properly and whatever method that you feel most comfortable with. The end goal is making your tank a livable ecosystem for whatever fish you want to put in it. We are all here to learn... the more ways we have of reaching the end goals, the better. I understand that the loss of a minnow may not be as devastating to you as the loss of a Betta but just don't tell my White Cloud Minnows that!!


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

Everyone has their *OWN* opinion and that's fine. Funny though, two Petsmart employees who work in the Fish Department recommended using the Rosy Red Minnows. Like I said, everyone has their own answers and opinions. BTW, since we *had* two Rosy Red's in there for about 3 weeks, does that mean our tank is now seeded with contamination??? Perhaps I better just empty out this tank, throw it away and buy a new one! Hummmmmm???? 



Snoeflayke said:


> As a PetSmart employee, I recommend against using minnows. Rosey red minnows are highly likely to carry bacterial diseases and parasites. By putting them in the tank first, you are possibly seeding your tank with these.
> 
> All 12 of my bettas were added to tanks cycled with TSS, some added the same day the tank was set up.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Hahahaha oh please let's not start discussing the quality of advice given out by *most* petsmart employees. Their ignorance is legendary.


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## Crazyfish (Feb 3, 2014)

Any fish you bring home will most likely be contaminated... keeping live fish isn't for the germ-a-phobe (reminds me of the movie "what about bob")


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

ClassicRocker said:


> Everyone has their *OWN* opinion and that's fine. Funny though, two Petsmart employees who work in the Fish Department recommended using the Rosy Red Minnows. Like I said, everyone has their own answers and opinions. BTW, since we *had* two Rosy Red's in there for about 3 weeks, does that mean our tank is now seeded with contamination??? Perhaps I better just empty out this tank, throw it away and buy a new one! Hummmmmm????


I tried to warn you about this earlier on in the thread. I would suggest breaking down the tank, cleaning it with the hottest water you can get out of your tap, refilling it and either fishless cycling or adding your betta and TSS.


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## Snoeflayke (Mar 3, 2013)

ClassicRocker said:


> Everyone has their *OWN* opinion and that's fine. Funny though, two Petsmart employees who work in the Fish Department recommended using the Rosy Red Minnows. Like I said, everyone has their own answers and opinions. BTW, since we *had* two Rosy Red's in there for about 3 weeks, does that mean our tank is now seeded with contamination??? Perhaps I better just empty out this tank, throw it away and buy a new one! Hummmmmm????


If you'd like to go that far, you're more than welcome to.
Maybe they're not the ones who remove all the dead minnows several times a day. Or see ascending paralysis in each and every shipment.

If it were my tanks, or anyone I was recommending starting a tank to, I would clean everything, and start with a new filter cartridge. Restart the whole thing without the huge potential for disease that minnows carry.

I actually clean up after another employee in my own store constantly. 3 goldfish in a 2.5g, 2 angelfish in a 5g, the list goes on. He doesn't even recommend a cycle. Lots of outdated ideas.
Semi-retired, works less than 10 hours a week, he's only still there because he can calibrate our sumps.
Point is, even employees can be wrong.

But, i suppose that's only my opinion, so feel free to scoff and disagree. In other words, continue as you are.
But jut remember that everyone here is trying to help you.
*Because you asked for help.*


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

You'd think that more of the employees would be as knowledgable as snoflake, but that's just not the case. Nothing against our young fish keepers, but many of them are just kids that like fish and need a job. Some of them don't even keep fish.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

jaysee said:


> You'd think that more of the employees would be as knowledgable as snoflake, but that's just not the case. Nothing against our young fish keepers, but many of them are just kids that like fish and need a job. Some of them don't even keep fish.


Me, being 19 (I was 18 at the time), I applied for and was given a job at Petco in the fish and reptile department. Having kept both avidly, I knew what I was talking about. I got through all of my CBT in one day and the second day, they showed me how to clean the reptile habitats and what they did with dead & dying fish (including the massive freezer full of dead and dying fish that was broken, yet filled to the top with fish). I didn't call and didn't show up for my third day of work. I was disgusted and would not let animals die that way or contribute to their deaths in the case of the reptile care. I do not support those chains what-so-ever and the only business Petsmart gets from me now is buying my feeder mice twice a month. I will be switching to a rodent factory for that here soon. I have a lovely LFS that I will pay double Petsmart's prices for anything in because I know they care for their animals and give proper advice.


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

OK, now I being told (different forum) that due to the *bioload*, I should buy/put the Betta into the tank after adding the TSS. Sound right? Because of this "bioload" thing, it's *NOT* recommended to put the minnows in, later (once tank is cycled) take them out and put the Betta in. The "bioload" would be use to the Betta and the TSS would protect the Betta from anything harmful in the tank. 

Does this sound right?

Was going to use minnows until I read this person's reply to us. But, want to make sure what she wrote is correct.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Bioload is areal thing - it's the biological load placed on the system. In short, it's the amount of waste that's produced in the fish tank. If the strain on the system is greater than the system can handle, then the water becomes toxic and the fishs health begins to deteriorate. Without correcting this problem, the fish WILL die.

The nitrogen cycle is the most important thin that you can know in the hobby. It trumps all else. It is the holy grail. You should familiarize yourself with it because it's what keeps the fish alive.

TSS provides the bacteria that is required to detoxify the water. That bacteria will colonize the filter media, substrate, glass, and every other surface in the tank all on its own, but in time. TSS and other such products let you add the bacteria to the tank en mass, instead of Having to wait fr it to grow naturally. It's a shortcut that has a proven track record.


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## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

Nitrates at 160 will kill most fish, so if you are going to use fish to cycle, please change enough water to lower nitrates below 20. This is your tank though and obviously your free to.do whatever yo wish.
Good luck!


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

Quite honestly, you're making this harder on yourself than necessary. Clean the tank and refill it. After 24 hours go pick up TSS and your betta. Acclimate the betta, add the TSS and feed your fish.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

Does that mean taking the gravel out........everything, including the live plants and décor? I'm not making it hard, just getting statements about what to do that differ in some ways. Darn, wife and I are new at this! Should it be a 50% or 100% change of water? I don't have a problem changing the water, but did do almost a 50% yesterday! 

Oh, the *PAIN* of it all........LOL Perhaps this is why I never had fish. A dog is easier to take care of. More expensive, but I've owned a dog before!




Flint said:


> Quite honestly, you're making this harder on yourself than necessary. Clean the tank and refill it. After 24 hours go pick up TSS and your betta. Acclimate the betta, add the TSS and feed your fish.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

If you are worried about disease from the minnows clean EVERYTHING in hot water. If not, wait 24 hours after using prime and go get your fish and TSS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

Looks like it will be: empty the tank, let it sit empty for 24 hours, fill, put in Conditioner, and wait another 24 hours. Then, get the SafeStart and Betta. Put the SafeStart in and wait a few minutes and then add the Betta. Will let the Betta float on top for awhile to get use to the tank temp. 

Then,* don't touch* the tank for 2 weeks except to do water perimeter checks and feed. Another thing that was recommended by a member of another forum. Do you agree with his recommendation?

BTW, done a water perimeter test (API Strips) tonight and all readings are the same as this morning and same as last night! Looks like this aquarium is in "limbo" right now..........absolutely *NOTHING!*


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

ClassicRocker said:


> Looks like it will be: empty the tank, let it sit empty for 24 hours, fill, put in Conditioner, and wait another 24 hours. Then, get the SafeStart and Betta. Put the SafeStart in and wait a few minutes and then add the Betta. Will let the Betta float on top for awhile to get use to the tank temp.
> 
> Then,* don't touch* the tank for 2 weeks except to do water perimeter checks and feed. Another thing that was recommended by a member of another forum. Do you agree with his recommendation?
> 
> BTW, done a water perimeter test (API Strips) tonight and all readings are the same as this morning and same as last night! Looks like this aquarium is in "limbo" right now..........absolutely *NOTHING!*


Is there a reason you want to let it sit empty for 24 hours? I don't see a need for this. You will need to properly acclimate the betta, not just get it used to the tank temperature. Do you know how to do this or do you need information? Tetra advises that you shouldn't check your parameters during the two weeks but I would to make sure your ammonia never exceeds 1ppm. This is the maximum that TSS will allow your ammonia to get to.


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

Was told to leave the tank empty for 24 hours so any remaining stuff from the minnows that were in there would be gone. It was either that or take out the gravel and run thru a strainer which would mean taking everything out of the tank! Actually, was told not to touch the gravel b/c of any beneficial bacteria that would be in it. So, I guess letting it sit empty for 24 hours is it. Don't want any reminents of the minnows left in the tank! 
Golly, this hasn't been the easiest thing to figure out.........but, can blame that on being a Beginner and on my age! I'm a Baby Boomer and will be getting Medicare shortly. LOL all over the place!!



Flint said:


> Is there a reason you want to let it sit empty for 24 hours? I don't see a need for this. You will need to properly acclimate the betta, not just get it used to the tank temperature. Do you know how to do this or do you need information? Tetra advises that you shouldn't check your parameters during the two weeks but I would to make sure your ammonia never exceeds 1ppm. This is the maximum that TSS will allow your ammonia to get to.


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## Austin (Feb 1, 2010)

I face palm every time someone trusts a petsmart employee. It seems they are taught archaic word-of-mouth misinformation. Or, if they have an aquarium, they may still have gotten through the cycling process the same way most of us did... Buy fish and wonder why everything dies the first month or two and eventually everything starts living. In fact thats what I did 9-10 years ago and I just started seeding my new tanks from old media to bypass the cycle- I've never actually cycled. So just because they have a "successful" tank doesn't mean they know squat about cycling. When someone there has 5 fish tanks like many people here maybe you can take their word... Anyways, that's my rant because I rarely speak to an employee who even knows how to SIMPLY catch fish. If its hit or miss like that with employees I'm not sure why anyone would risk taking their advice after researching online and talking to people who LIVE for fish, who have had myriads of aquariums.

:frustrated:


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## Austin (Feb 1, 2010)

Also fish keeping isn't as challenging once you get past the learning curve, and basically once your tank is cycled.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

It isn't necessary to "air out" your aquarium.. Like I said, hot water, Prime then 24 hours, add your fish first, then add the TSS and don't touch.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

Do you know how to acclimate a fish?


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## rsskylight04 (Nov 9, 2013)

Patience is your best friend when cycling. I've waited 6 weeks for a stable cycle. Usualy not nearly that long though. After youre initial cycle though its very easy and simple to maintain a freshwater aquarium. Hardest and most important part is that first month or two. Hope your tank stabilizes quickly and best wishes for a beautiful, healthy fishtank.


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

Will NOT let the tank set empty for 24 hours! My opinion, and some others........some folks get TOO paranoid over minnows that have been in an aquarium before. These minnows in the store are being bought/fed to ducks and turtles and I haven't heard of an outbreak of ducks and turtles getting sick or dying from minnows! 
I will clean the tank inside the best way possible, but not going to start all over with a completely empty tank. 

Anyway, will empty tank tomorrow, fill it (as recommended), add Prime and then wait 24 hours for the Prime to do it's thing. I think some folks in these fish forums are pretty paranoid about minnow diseases, etc....that is why the "empty for 24 hours" was recommended. 

A question: How much Prime to put into a 5 gallon aquarium after filling it up (5 gallons). Had to look up online and found out that it's 2 drops per gallon from an eye dropper. Is that right? If it is, that would be 10 drops with the eye dropper. ?

I'm also having a difficult time trying to figure out which to buy......Tetra SafeStart or API QuickStart.


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

I did it with the two minnows we put into the tank in the beginning. They were in a bag and I let the bag sit on top of the water for awhile. Then, took the bag over to the sink, and with the fish net below it, cut a small hole in the bag and let the water drain thru the net and the minnows fell into the net. Took the net over to the tank and put the minnows in. They were fine!



Flint said:


> Do you know how to acclimate a fish?


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

When you are acclimating fish you actually care about, you might want to actually acclimate them to the tanks water rather than just the temperature. Before you cut a hole in the bag and let the fish fall into the net, add some tank water to the bag.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

Empty out as much of the water from the bag as possible and put it back in the tank to float, then every 15 minutes or so, raise the water by 1/2" with tank water until the bag is close to where it originally was. THEN you can net the fish and put it in the tank.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

ClassicRocker said:


> Will NOT let the tank set empty for 24 hours! My opinion, and some others........some folks get TOO paranoid over minnows that have been in an aquarium before. These minnows in the store are being bought/fed to ducks and turtles and I haven't heard of an outbreak of ducks and turtles getting sick or dying from minnows!
> I will clean the tank inside the best way possible, but not going to start all over with a completely empty tank.
> 
> Anyway, will empty tank tomorrow, fill it (as recommended), add Prime and then wait 24 hours for the Prime to do it's thing. I think some folks in these fish forums are pretty paranoid about minnow diseases, etc....that is why the "empty for 24 hours" was recommended.
> ...


Ducks and Turtles don't get ich, columnaris, ect. It isn't fair of you to be comparing what a diseased minnow will do to a duck or turtle vs what it'll do to a fish.

Yes, it's two drops per gallon (I always do 3 just in case). Get Tetra SafeStart. I know for a fact that it works.


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## jimscott (Jan 24, 2014)

jaysee said:


> When you are acclimating fish you actually care about, you might want to actually acclimate them to the tanks water rather than just the temperature. Before you cut a hole in the bag and let the fish fall into the net, add some tank water to the bag.


This was the approach we took to acclimating new salt water fish to their new tanks. Specifically, we emptied the fish and water into 'cat trays' and added some water from the tank. Then we waited ~5 minutes. We then removed about half of that water and added more tank water. We waited again and repeated the procedure. We did this a few times and then put the fish their respective tanks. 

We were less painstakingly careful with freshwater fish. We had the bags floating n the tank to get the temperature the same and then poured the fish through a large net, under a bucket. Then we put the fish into their tanks. We could have taken a more careful approach with the freshwater fish, but it was generally not necessary.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

It's not good for the fish at all, Jim and again, this isn't a wholesaler situation. It's someone who wants their fish to live not just turn profit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jimscott (Jan 24, 2014)

Acclimating fish is appropriate for the hobbyist as well.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

I would tend to agree with you on the need for more careful acclimation procedures, or lack thereof. It's something I used to take more seriously but not so much now. However, I believe there are species that should acclimated with greater care than others for the simple fact that not all fish are the same. I believe acclimation is essential for certain types of shrimp, but that's not my thing so don't quote me on that. However, I know of a private retailer that doesn't acclimate other than for temp.

But because of the OPs concern for the well being of the real fish they intend to keep, I thought I'd toss out a warning, especially because it's a precaution that's so easily taken.

Personally, my acclimation procedure is pretty lax. After the temp acclimation the fish get dumped into a pitcher. I add water to the pitcher and then forget about the fish. Then I remember and add more water a couple more times, and then I net the fish out of the pitcher and put it in the tank.


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

From what I understand (and see in the stores), Betta's are sold in little plastic containers w/a lid. Looks to me like the kind of plastic container they would use at a Deli area in a supermarket. So, how do you "acclimate" the Betta in this thing? Or, if requested, will the pet store transfer the Betta to a plastic bag, like other fish are sent home in? 



Flint said:


> Empty out as much of the water from the bag as possible and put it back in the tank to float, then every 15 minutes or so, raise the water by 1/2" with tank water until the bag is close to where it originally was. THEN you can net the fish and put it in the tank.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

I'm sure they will transfer to a bag on request. Just empty enough water that the betta can sit upright and add 1/4" of water every 15 min or so and net then tank. Or transfer to a ziplock.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

Well, darn.......if the minnow was diseased, *WHY* would it be sold in the first place. I'm sure Petsmart and Petco would have a major LOL over someone saying their minnows aren't safe! 



Flint said:


> Ducks and Turtles don't get ich, columnaris, ect. It isn't fair of you to be comparing what a diseased minnow will do to a duck or turtle vs what it'll do to a fish.
> 
> Yes, it's two drops per gallon (I always do 3 just in case). Get Tetra SafeStart. I know for a fact that it works.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

They'll most certainly bag the fish for you.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

Why do they put bettas in cups or suggest bowls for goldfish?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

ClassicRocker said:


> Well, darn.......if the minnow was diseased, *WHY* would it be sold in the first place. I'm sure Petsmart and Petco would have a major LOL over someone saying their minnows aren't safe!


There are varying degrees of disease - it's not like they change color when they're sick. I'm sure fish that are obviously on their way out are dealt with. sometimes. But a lot of fish can be functionally sick. But, it's IMPOSSIBLE to single out fish in a minnow tank. There is safety in numbers.


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

I don't know........just not "into" fish like a lot of these folks are, but do understand that folks who are that much "into" fish want the best for them. Now, for an expensive fish, a Betta is only $6......VERY BEAUTIFUL, but still only $6, I'd be much, much more careful. If I was REALLY into aquariums/fish and had more than one, I'd be much more "into this" hobby than I am!



jimscott said:


> This was the approach we took to acclimating new salt water fish to their new tanks. Specifically, we emptied the fish and water into 'cat trays' and added some water from the tank. Then we waited ~5 minutes. We then removed about half of that water and added more tank water. We waited again and repeated the procedure. We did this a few times and then put the fish their respective tanks.
> 
> We were less painstakingly careful with freshwater fish. We had the bags floating n the tank to get the temperature the same and then poured the fish through a large net, under a bucket. Then we put the fish into their tanks. We could have taken a more careful approach with the freshwater fish, but it was generally not necessary.


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

This goes back *MANY, MANY* years! Back in the mid 70's, my ex-wife had a descent size aquarium and had two Betta's in a small square plastic containers hung from the top edge of the aquarium. Guess they still sell those type of containers for housing Betta's on an aquarium for viewing in homes. I don't know why the such small quarters for them, but that's the way it is. I (personally) think that when people by a 5 gallon or bigger aquarium, they want to see more than one fish/Betta swimming around in it! 



Flint said:


> Why do they put bettas in cups or suggest bowls for goldfish?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

It's not right, but it's done anyways. Same goes with selling sick fish.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

Well, it's absolutely *UNBELIEVEABLE* how many people buy those small Betta Bowls w/a light when they are on sale at Petsmart and Petco. I know, that was what were going to get, until I thought "no way, too small!". While at Petsmart, looking at the aquariums, seen a number of those Betta Bowls boxes w/customers at the register.

Again, this has been going on for years and years. Guess the aquarium/fish community has absolutely no pull to change this and other things the community doesn't like about these stores. 



Flint said:


> It's not right, but it's done anyways. Same goes with selling sick fish.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sandybottom (Nov 29, 2012)

ClassicRocker said:


> Well, darn.......if the minnow was diseased, *WHY* would it be sold in the first place. I'm sure Petsmart and Petco would have a major LOL over someone saying their minnows aren't safe!


they are sold as feeder fish,the same as common goldfish.the average (or below) nubie fish keeper does not know enough to even gut load them before feeding them to their fish.feeder fish do not have the time or money put into them that the more desirable varieties do.they do not cull them for deformities either. they are raised in cramped tanks and fed cruddy foods.this constant stress from being overcrowded, leaves them open to disease. a lot of the serious keepers of carnivorous fish raise their own feeding stock so they do not introduce disease into their tanks.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

ClassicRocker said:


> I (personally) think that when people by a 5 gallon or bigger aquarium, they want to see more than one fish/Betta swimming around in it!



I considered getting a single fish for my 125. I almost did. A dovii.

But I agree a lot of people want more than one fish. However, all too often they do not have a tank to support the fish they want to keep.


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## Austin (Feb 1, 2010)

Honestly every time I walk into petsmart their are visibly sick fish. Half of them have ich, which will kill your fish if you do not treat it. The last two times I got fish from petsmart I have had to treat for ich. Petsmart can LOL all they want but the fact is that the 3-4 I've been to around my house all have disease and quality problems. Some have worse fish than others. I'm not sure why petsmart still sells them. I guess nobody cares enough. I used to be the type to add fish from petsmart without quarantining but now I'm not sure how anyone gets by like that without major problems. Petsmart can't inspect every single minnow. It's not like a dog or a cat, sadly nobody really cares if they sell sick fish. Do you think they care if their 10 cent fish are healthy?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

This was sort of funny, but, when we were at a Petsmart, a customer was almost to the point of arguing with the employee about putting two male Betta's in the same aquarium. The more the employee told the customer "it's not a good idea at all because they will fight and one will die", the customer wouldn't understand what the employee was telling her. All the customer could say is "no, that will not happen". I seen her go to the register with the male Betta in hand.

I asked the employee, "how often does that happen" and she said "more than you'd realize! Sometimes people just don't want to hear the words "no, I wouldn't do that" from us".


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

Maybe there should be a thing called "Pet Store Check/Review" where a news person goes to pet stores and checks out things and reports back to the public on tv. We have that here with restaurants. Why not pet stores!



Austin said:


> Honestly every time I walk into petsmart their are visibly sick fish. Half of them have ich, which will kill your fish if you do not treat it. The last two times I got fish from petsmart I have had to treat for ich. Petsmart can LOL all they want but the fact is that the 3-4 I've been to around my house all have disease and quality problems. Some have worse fish than others. I'm not sure why petsmart still sells them. I guess nobody cares enough. I used to be the type to add fish from petsmart without quarantining but now I'm not sure how anyone gets by like that without major problems. Petsmart can't inspect every single minnow. It's not like a dog or a cat, sadly nobody really cares if they sell sick fish. Do you think they care if their 10 cent fish are healthy?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sandybottom (Nov 29, 2012)

most of these fish have been in transit.sometimes they make a couple of trips before they get to your store.they have not been fed in a few days and temperature variations happen.this all contributes to a weaker stock that is either on deaths door,or weakened enough that disease can take hold.some of these fish are wild caught,so they fare the worst. the best day to buy fish is not the day that they get new stock in.a lot of theses fish are in shock from ammonia. our store gets its fish on fridays.i would wait 6 days and get the fish on thursday,the day before new stock arrives.the weak and most of the sick fish will either be dead or are being treated for disease and not for sale.what you have left to choose from are the healthiest of the remaining stock.


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

Well, I can't vouch any of this, b/c I don't know. But, do understand what you are saying.

Unfortunately, with how popular the beauty of male Betta's are, waiting a week to buy one could be too late. It's very surprising at just how fast these fish are sold!




sandybottom said:


> most of these fish have been in transit.sometimes they make a couple of trips before they get to your store.they have not been fed in a few days and temperature variations happen.this all contributes to a weaker stock that is either on deaths door,or weakened enough that disease can take hold.some of these fish are wild caught,so they fare the worst. the best day to buy fish is not the day that they get new stock in.a lot of theses fish are in shock from ammonia. our store gets its fish on fridays.i would wait 6 days and get the fish on thursday,the day before new stock arrives.the weak and most of the sick fish will either be dead or are being treated for disease and not for sale.what you have left to choose from are the healthiest of the remaining stock.


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

Was talking to my wife last night and, even thou I *REALLY* want a dog/puppy (young Shih Tzu), we might get another aquarium later. We have space for either another 5 gallon or 10 gallon one. Can't have more than two or bigger than a 10 gallon due to living in an apartment (not big, like a house). But, I was rather enjoying, as was my wife, watching the two Rosy Red's swim around in the hexagon aquarium.


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## sandybottom (Nov 29, 2012)

a 15 gallon tall has the same footprint as a 10 gallon. just another option. my last post was considering other fish. get the betta on stocking day.


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## jimscott (Jan 24, 2014)

ClassicRocker said:


> This goes back *MANY, MANY* years! Back in the mid 70's, my ex-wife had a descent size aquarium and had two Betta's in a small square plastic containers hung from the top edge of the aquarium. Guess they still sell those type of containers for housing Betta's on an aquarium for viewing in homes. I don't know why the such small quarters for them, but that's the way it is. I (personally) think that when people by a 5 gallon or bigger aquarium, they want to see more than one fish/Betta swimming around in it!


LOL! I think they were called, 'Betta Barracks'. Out of curiosity, how do they survive the rice paddies?


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

jimscott said:


> Out of curiosity, how do they survive the rice paddies?



http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/betta-fish-care/mythbuster-do-bettas-really-live-tiny-8923/


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## ClassicRocker (Jan 20, 2014)

Want to *THANK* everyone who replied to this Thread. I can be "hardheaded" (I blame it on age..LOL;-)), but got some *VERY GOOD *advice/recommendations. 

Have to admit, you guys are *VERY GOOD *at this "fish keeping" thing!:notworthy:

We are going with the 100% water change and Prime, 24 hrs later comes SafeStart and the BEAUTIFUL male Betta that we pick.

Well let you know how things progress.

Again, *THANKS*!! :thankyou:


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

We hope to see pictures!!


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