# gourami problems!!!



## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

Just tonight I had to euthanize a Gourami in my tank (an Opaline I believe). Less than two weeks ago, his fin started to rot very quickly. I dosed him directly with Methylene Blue and then did a water change. I kept a close eye, thinking it was just fin rot. It quickly spread into his stomach and started eating the skin. Today I found him bloated and side floating, looking almost like he had dropsy. The big chunk that was missing is what concerns me. Well, I scooped him out, and he didn't hang to close with my other gouramis, so I'm just watching them... Today, my favorite male, a pearl (soooo gorgeous) has a small pink bump right above his eye. It doesn't look like a gash, just a bump with no scales. If his face rots off I swear, I'll cry! Advise? Maybe this is a Prazipro job? Or any idea what that insanely fast rot on my other Gourami was? HELP! I know that these guys are super touchy with disease, and I'd hate to lose my whole Gourami tank... Not to mention my cats, etc! :|


----------



## ozakiakemi (Feb 3, 2011)

Kaddock said:


> Just tonight I had to euthanize a Gourami in my tank (an Opaline I believe). Less than two weeks ago, his fin started to rot very quickly. I dosed him directly with Methylene Blue and then did a water change. I kept a close eye, thinking it was just fin rot. It quickly spread into his stomach and started eating the skin. Today I found him bloated and side floating, looking almost like he had dropsy. The big chunk that was missing is what concerns me. Well, I scooped him out, and he didn't hang to close with my other gouramis, so I'm just watching them... Today, my favorite male, a pearl (soooo gorgeous) has a small pink bump right above his eye. It doesn't look like a gash, just a bump with no scales. If his face rots off I swear, I'll cry! Advise? Maybe this is a Prazipro job? Or any idea what that insanely fast rot on my other Gourami was? HELP! I know that these guys are super touchy with disease, and I'd hate to lose my whole Gourami tank... Not to mention my cats, etc! :|


How is you water condition? I read this week that most of the diseases appear because the water is irregular in some way.


----------



## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

ozakiakemi said:


> How is you water condition? I read this week that most of the diseases appear because the water is irregular in some way.


That's a given, yes. When your fish are stressed by foul water, they are more prone to disease. I'm more interested in how to treat this however. :blueworry:

I just tested this tank not an hour ago:

pH - 7.2+
KH - 6
GH - 9
NO-3 - <40 (I know it could be better, I'm doing a 25% tomorrow, and did one on Monday)
NO-2 - 0
NH3 - 0

No issue there that I can see. I do water changes at least once a week, twice under disease conditions.

Any more ideas anyone?


----------



## ozakiakemi (Feb 3, 2011)

See if this helps!

Fish Disease and Treatment


----------



## ozakiakemi (Feb 3, 2011)

Ha!!! HAhhhh!!!

Found it... I think, I really hope it helps.



Head and Lateral Line Erosion Disease (HLLD or HLLE) - Hole-in-the-Head Disease
Symptoms: Begins as small pits on the head and face, usually just above the eye. If untreated, these turn into large cavities and then the disease progresses along the lateral line.

Head and Lateral Line Disease is also known as Hole-in-the-Head Disease, Lateral Line Erosion (LLE), and Lateral Line Disease (LLD). It is attributed to a nutritional deficiency of one or more of: Vitamin C, Vitamin D, calcium, and phosphorus. Though its cause is not definitively determined, it is thought to be caused by a poor diet or lack of variety, lack of partial water changes, or over filtration with chemical media such as activated carbon.

HLLE has been reversed by one or more of the following treatments:

Increase frequent water changes.
Add vitamins to frozen foods.
Add the addition of flake foods, as they are enriched with vitamins.
Add greens, either frozen or in leaf form, to the diet.
Decrease the amount of beef heart as it lacks many critical nutrients.
Remove activated carbon filtration.
(This disease is often confused with another disease called 'Hexamita', because both these diseases are often seen simultaneously in the same fish. Hexamita is a protozoan disease that attacks the lower intestine. Discus and other large cichlids, especially Oscars, are especially prone to Hexamita.)


----------



## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

I really don't think this is hole in the head. It looks like it's increased in size a bit, but not much. I wonder if it's just a wound, but it looks like it's poking out, not gashed in. It looks kinda puffy. I've been dosing the tank with professional strength melafix, aquarium salt and stress coat. Well, hopefully it doesn't get worse...


----------



## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

Dump the Melafix. Remember you are dealing with anabantids so the melaluca concentration can kill your fish. Do another water change to remove it. I do not advocate the use of Melafix. It works in allowing the wounds to heal fast but it will do nothing to a bacterial infection which I suspect your fish actually has.

Do you have kanamycin access?
How much salt was added?

Ditch the stress coat as well.


----------



## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

Lupin said:


> Dump the Melafix. Remember you are dealing with anabantids so the melaluca concentration can kill your fish. Do another water change to remove it. I do not advocate the use of Melafix. It works in allowing the wounds to heal fast but it will do nothing to a bacterial infection which I suspect your fish actually has.
> 
> Do you have kanamycin access?
> How much salt was added?
> ...



Wait, I've never heard about melaluca killing Anabatids. Can you elaborate please? I don't understand why melafix would not help hold back bateria when that's what it's for... :question:

I've used Kanamycin extensively over the past year on several different kinds of bacterial infections with only minor results and lots of losses. Have you tried Aqua Pro-Cure?

I added 1 tsp per 5 gal as directed on the salt, just once after the last water change.

Ditch the stress coat? I'm not sure why that would be a good idea. Perhaps you can provide more information as the reasons for your advice? Much appreciated!


----------



## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

No, it does not. It can help allow recovery of the wounds faster than normal but it does not really hold back bacteria despite its "antibacterial" claims.

Bettas and gouramis breathe air even from the surface. They are far different from the normal aquatic fish so any herbal med, especially aloe vera, that can suffocate the fish will kill them faster than it would to a "normal" fish. Add to that the fact Melafix allows too much slime coat production that the excess could get trapped in their respiratory system and suffocate them in the process.

I haven't tried Aqua Pro-Cure. What are the active ingredients? Not familiar with this product.

What other antibiotics did you try before?
You have access to Maracyn Plus?


----------



## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

Lupin said:


> No, it does not. It can help allow recovery of the wounds faster than normal but it does not really hold back bacteria despite its "antibacterial" claims.



Well shoot. Do you think it still makes sense to add some when adding new fish to help smooth the transition?




Lupin said:


> Bettas and gouramis breathe air even from the surface. They are far different from the normal aquatic fish so any herbal med, especially aloe vera, that can suffocate the fish will kill them faster than it would to a "normal" fish. Add to that the fact Melafix allows too much slime coat production that the excess could get trapped in their respiratory system and suffocate them in the process.



I guess I figured the labyrinth breathers where more hardy given the fact that the labyrinth system is designed for low oxygen water, is it not? Weird. Well thanks for the info. I guess I'll stick with my Prime for water changes instead of stress coat. I've seen stress coat do some amazing things though, so I still love it!




Lupin said:


> I haven't tried Aqua Pro-Cure. What are the active ingredients? Not familiar with this product.



According to the MSDS:
Water 88 - 91% 
Formaldehyde 4 - 6% 
Methyl Alcohol <1 – 2%
Acriflavine Hydrochloride <2% 
9-Aminoacridine <2% 

This medication is mostly designed for parasites but is also highly effective against bacteria. According to a study I read on fin rot and scarlet this stuff is highly recommended, especially since it does not hurt inverts (that sounds nice, but doesn't matter for this tank). 




Lupin said:


> What other antibiotics did you try before?
> You have access to Maracyn Plus?


I haven't tried Maracyn, but I can check. In the past few months I've used Methylene Blue, Kanaplex, Fungus Cure, Triple Sulfa, and Erythromycin. These where not all in this tank, in fact this tank is always the healthiest of the three. I used most of those in my 28 gallon (over a period of time), with no effect. After culling several fish I've had no further problems. I used most of these medications in my 10 gal planted tank as well... The fish in that tank have been battling red and rotted fins for quite some time with no results from any of those meds. That's a whole other story though. I take very good care of all of my tanks, doing water changes at least once a week and testing quality once a week. I'm no expert though obviously... :-?


----------



## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

Kaddock said:


> Well shoot. Do you think it still makes sense to add some when adding new fish to help smooth the transition?



No. The only useful thing it does is accelerate recovery rate of uninfected injuries. Other than that, it's pointless.
 



> I guess I figured the labyrinth breathers where more hardy given the fact that the labyrinth system is designed for low oxygen water, is it not? Weird. Well thanks for the info. I guess I'll stick with my Prime for water changes instead of stress coat. I've seen stress coat do some amazing things though, so I still love it!


Exactly. Prime is the only chemical I'd add on long-term basis, nothing else. Trouble with aloe vera is it also produces excessive slime. The fish are able to regenerate their slime coat on a normal rate without the need of slime coat.




> According to the MSDS:
> Water 88 - 91%
> Formaldehyde 4 - 6%
> Methyl Alcohol <1 – 2%
> ...



Which study was it? Any link to it? I wonder which invertebrate they tested this on. I've kept many snails and a lot of them are extremely sensitive to traces of formaldehyde. That is toxic to them.

I can see why it is effective against bacterial infections. The alcohol and acriflavine do have negative impact on bacteria. It may be useful here. Worth a try. Just for reference though...If you have already used another med prior to finding this recommendation, then give the fish a break first for 3 days at least. Do daily water changes on that period along with salt.

If you do plan to switch to that med, you will have to remove the salt and give the fish 3-day break. Salt and formaldehyde don't mix. The combination quickly kills the fish.



> I haven't tried Maracyn, but I can check. In the past few months I've used Methylene Blue, Kanaplex, Fungus Cure, Triple Sulfa, and Erythromycin. These where not all in this tank, in fact this tank is always the healthiest of the three. I used most of those in my 28 gallon (over a period of time), with no effect. After culling several fish I've had no further problems. I used most of these medications in my 10 gal planted tank as well... The fish in that tank have been battling red and rotted fins for quite some time with no results from any of those meds. That's a whole other story though. I take very good care of all of my tanks, doing water changes at least once a week and testing quality once a week. I'm no expert though obviously... :-?


Erythromycin alone cannot solve infections. It is designed for gram-positive bacteria. Most of the infections, however, are gram-negative bacteria so you need to combine it with minocycline to make it work. Either the combination of both or Maracyn Plus will do the job.

The resulting hemorrhagic septicemia is often secondary to parasitic infestation. Have you ever encountered parasites before? If there were parasites spotted before, those need to be eliminated first before you hit the bacterial infection. Unfortunately, parasites do serve as a gateway for bacterial infections. They puncture the skin of your fish leaving tiny blood vessels exposed, thus, allowing the bad bacteria (pseudomonas, aeromonas and flexibacter, all of which are always present in every tank) to infiltrate the bloodstream and infect the fish.

The other causes of blood streaking would be abnormally high temperature and very low oxygen levels. I had two comet goldfish at one time kept in the pond. It was extremely hot weather and I suddenly noticed my comets suffering a severe case of hemorrhaging. They were immediately moved to a hospital tank. All it took was dosing salt, aerating the water well and doing 3 100% water changes for them to completely recover within 24 hours.


----------



## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

Lupin said:


> Which study was it? Any link to it? I wonder which invertebrate they tested this on. I've kept many snails and a lot of them are extremely sensitive to traces of formaldehyde. That is toxic to them.


Well, I'm going to try the aqua pro-cure in my 38 gal with the gourami and see if any changes. Please give me more of your great advice first though! I will be doing water changes tomorrow and then was planning on administering the meds. I haven't added salt since the water change last weekend, and have done a 25% WC mid-week. The meds say right on the label, copper free, reef & invert safe, effective for marine & freshwater velvet, dinoflagellates, gill flukes, and bacterial fin rot, and safe for nitrifying bacteria. Oh, and also: Warning: This product contains a chemical known to the State of California to cause cancer. Seriously? Sound good to me! I am still nervous about using this in my ten gallon, but really want to! Do you think it would kill flower shrimp or assassin snails that live in my tank? :hmmerhaps if it does I can get this company to send me new ones! ;-)

I couldn't find the specific one I saw before, but here is a detailed report on treating that also states what I read before (this one could be slightly biased... it's published by the manufacturer):

http://www.fishvet.com/Columnaris.pdf

"Aqua Pro-Cure and Revive are both a blended mixture of several components to treat this and other diseases. Acriflavine-MS and Metro-MS are single compound medications, specifically acriflavine neutral and metronidazole respectively, which will also bring this disease under control. Please note that Aqua Pro-Cure and Revive are reef and invertebrate safe which makes them the treatment of choice for such an aquarium."



Lupin said:


> I can see why it is effective against bacterial infections. The alcohol and acriflavine do have negative impact on bacteria. It may be useful here. Worth a try. Just for reference though...If you have already used another med prior to finding this recommendation, then give the fish a break first for 3 days at least. Do daily water changes on that period along with salt.



If my new medication will react to salt, wouldn't it be better to just not dose with the salt for three days before using the medication?



Lupin said:


> If you do plan to switch to that med, you will have to remove the salt and give the fish 3-day break. Salt and formaldehyde don't mix. The combination quickly kills the fish.




How can I be sure the salt has been eliminated? Just a large WC?



Lupin said:


> Erythromycin alone cannot solve infections. It is designed for gram-positive bacteria. Most of the infections, however, are gram-negative bacteria so you need to combine it with minocycline to make it work. Either the combination of both or Maracyn Plus will do the job.


I've never looked in to gram-positive or negative before. Now I have learned a bit about my enemy by looking it up, thanks!



Lupin said:


> The resulting hemorrhagic septicemia is often secondary to parasitic infestation. Have you ever encountered parasites before? If there were parasites spotted before, those need to be eliminated first before you hit the bacterial infection. Unfortunately, parasites do serve as a gateway for bacterial infections. They puncture the skin of your fish leaving tiny blood vessels exposed, thus, allowing the bad bacteria (pseudomonas, aeromonas and flexibacter, all of which are always present in every tank) to infiltrate the bloodstream and infect the fish.


I've dosed all of my tanks with Prazi-pro in the past month or so. Would that be enough? Honestly, I've not seen any signs of parasites that I can easily identify. This new medication is for parasites anyway though.The bacterial problems I have (aside from the gourami) are in my ten gallon planted tank. The scarlet is usually on the tip of their fins, and will disappear quickly if a drop of Methylene blue is directly administered, or sometimes after a good water change. This is on my guppies, who have also suffered the occasional whiteness on their fins with rot, but are slowly coming out of it. I need one last attack to just finish it! There is one fish in the tank that is a different story, a black skirted tetra. the other tetras have minor issues similar to the guppies, but seem to be better at fighting it off. This one has red streaks running along his caudal fin. These also fade in the same way as the scarlet that comes with the rot. Are your thinking that could be a parasite indicator?
 



Lupin said:


> The other causes of blood streaking would be abnormally high temperature and very low oxygen levels. I had two comet goldfish at one time kept in the pond. It was extremely hot weather and I suddenly noticed my comets suffering a severe case of hemorrhaging. They were immediately moved to a hospital tank. All it took was dosing salt, aerating the water well and doing 3 100% water changes for them to completely recover within 24 hours.


Well, the tank is below eighty degrees F, and is planted. I don't think they have much trouble breathing, but sometimes I will run the pump near the surface for an hour or two at night to give them an oxygen boost. I just try not to run it much since the plants need their CO2! That's a great recovery story. What I need to make it a reality is an extra tank.


----------



## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

Kaddock said:


> Well, I'm going to try the aqua pro-cure in my 38 gal with the gourami and see if any changes. Please give me more of your great advice first though! I will be doing water changes tomorrow and then was planning on administering the meds. I haven't added salt since the water change last weekend, and have done a 25% WC mid-week. The meds say right on the label, copper free, reef & invert safe, effective for marine & freshwater velvet, dinoflagellates, gill flukes, and bacterial fin rot, and safe for nitrifying bacteria. Oh, and also: Warning: This product contains a chemical known to the State of California to cause cancer. Seriously? Sound good to me! I am still nervous about using this in my ten gallon, but really want to! Do you think it would kill flower shrimp or assassin snails that live in my tank? :hmmerhaps if it does I can get this company to send me new ones! ;-)


Just remove all your invertebrates as a precaution.

Formaldehyde is a known carcinogenic hence the warning.
 


> If my new medication will react to salt, wouldn't it be better to just not dose with the salt for three days before using the medication?


I did indicate before that salt should be removed before you start using Aqua Pro-Cure. Doing a series of water changes will remove the salt. Small traces left may not be enough to produce a lethal effect with formaldehyde.




> How can I be sure the salt has been eliminated? Just a large WC?


Water changes.



> I've dosed all of my tanks with Prazi-pro in the past month or so. Would that be enough? Honestly, I've not seen any signs of parasites that I can easily identify. This new medication is for parasites anyway though.The bacterial problems I have (aside from the gourami) are in my ten gallon planted tank. The scarlet is usually on the tip of their fins, and will disappear quickly if a drop of Methylene blue is directly administered, or sometimes after a good water change. This is on my guppies, who have also suffered the occasional whiteness on their fins with rot, but are slowly coming out of it. I need one last attack to just finish it! There is one fish in the tank that is a different story, a black skirted tetra. the other tetras have minor issues similar to the guppies, but seem to be better at fighting it off. This one has red streaks running along his caudal fin. These also fade in the same way as the scarlet that comes with the rot. Are your thinking that could be a parasite indicator?


Usually? This has been a regular occurrence?:-? Only parasites would be capable of repeating this otherwise, they would not have suffered infections constantly.

I need to eat breakfast first and be back. My mind is a bit jumpy.:lol:


----------



## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

Lupin said:


> Just remove all your invertebrates as a precaution.


Well crap, I have nowhere to put them. I guess I'll be making a quarantine kritter keeper. I just hope that they won't be too shocked and die anyway.



Lupin said:


> I did indicate before that salt should be removed before you start using Aqua Pro-Cure. Doing a series of water changes will remove the salt. Small traces left may not be enough to produce a lethal effect with formaldehyde.


Got it, I was just asking because you also indicated "...then give the fish a break first for 3 days at least. Do daily water changes on that period along with salt". I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page. I will be three water changes away from adding the salt as of today, so I will probably wait until after the next WC to medicate.

​


Lupin said:


> Usually? This has been a regular occurrence?:-? Only parasites would be capable of repeating this otherwise, they would not have suffered infections constantly.


It has not only been regular, it has been nearly constant (at least since last fall). I have not been able to eliminate this problem in my ten gallon with any medication I've used. I've been stepping up water changes, have had near perfect water parameters... It's insanely frustrating. I have tried prazi-pro, but I didn't heavily dose. If you think it's parasites, I suppose this pro-cure stuff might be the best bet, since it's recommended for parasites _and _bacteria. Do you think that the parasites described on this product (effective for marine & freshwater velvet, dinoflagellates, gill flukes, and bacterial fin rot, and safe for nitrifying bacteria) are the ones we need to eliminate? I definitely see velvety objects. Sometimes the fin rot areas have a string hanging off that dies when I treat. Could that be part of the bacterial infection, or does it seem to be positively parasitic? 

I'm sorry I'm barraging you, it's just that I have been battling this with the aid of this forum and two fish stores... None of them have ever brought up any of the stuff you've said so far!!! I am very curious to try your recommendations, since no one else seems to know what I'm dealing with, even though they've given me so many ideas...


----------



## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

So if you're pointing the flashlight on your fish, you also see golden film on their flanks? That would explain possible velvet which is one of the most difficult things to treat. I haven't managed to treat this issue successfully so far but they suggest copper for this. Not a fan of copper-based meds though because I had inverts to take care of.


----------



## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

I don't see any gold on the flanks. The red is only occasional on the guppies, but seems to stay on the tetra's caudal fin. On the guppies it appears to have 3 dimensions, like a little bump. It always disappears after a WC or medication. On the tetra it is very light red streaks on the caudal fin, that fade and come back, not sure what affects them.


----------



## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

The aqua-pro cure has worked great on my gourami! I am going to put all my inverts in the hospital tank I set up a week ago, and dose the ten gallon now! Wish me luck! :-D


----------



## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

Well Lupin, I spoke too soon. I will be trying Maracyn Two next. 

So the difference between Maracyn and Maracyn two is that they kill gram positive or negative bacteria, respectively? How do I know when a bacterial infection is one or the other? Both Maracyns say they are recommended for the same thing from what I can find...

What it Maracyn Plus for?


----------



## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

Maracyn Plus is broad spectrum. I think I'd go for that one.

What happened though? The Aqua Pro Cure didn't work? They're getting worse?


----------



## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

I pretty much got the same results that I got from other medications. The obvious symptoms go away, but return quite quickly.


----------



## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

Well, I think the maracyn is helping the 38 gallon gourami tank, but the ulcerations are pretty severe. Is there any reason not to put salt in the tank with Maracyn Plus? I have hope for the large tank, but I hate to say that the ten gallon is still under quarantine. At this point this is just infuriating. I've literally tried ten plus medications on this tank (over the course of several months). My water quality is fine, and stepping up to two smaller changes a week doesn't seem to do much. 

Unless you've got a better idea, I plan to freeze the overly diseased fish, and quarantine the unaffected ones and they will ultimately end up in my 28 gallon. Then I will strip this aquarium down and start from scratch. I'm just sick of it. No matter how well I take care of the tank, it is diseased. I also have never been able to relieve my algae problem, (though that is much better with the new light fixture) even with only eight hours of light a day and it is heavily planted. I am at my whits end. I have tried sooooo many different things for this tank. It is a money pit and is really annoying me. :-(


----------



## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

Well, I've made some pretty serious changes... The problem is still there though! I am in the middle of one more Maracyn Plus treatment. Should I just keep treating until the problem is gone, or do you have another recommendation? It's hard to tell if it's even working. Oh the frustration. 

On a happier note, I found a tiny little half inch long fish in my 38 gallon today, he looks like a little bandit! I have no idea how he got in there, or how long he's been there. Weird.


----------



## LasColinasCichlids (Jan 4, 2011)

Kaddock said:


> Well, I think the maracyn is helping the 38 gallon gourami tank, but the ulcerations are pretty severe. Is there any reason not to put salt in the tank with Maracyn Plus? I have hope for the large tank, but I hate to say that the ten gallon is still under quarantine. At this point this is just infuriating. I've literally tried ten plus medications on this tank (over the course of several months). My water quality is fine, and stepping up to two smaller changes a week doesn't seem to do much.
> 
> Unless you've got a better idea, I plan to freeze the overly diseased fish, and quarantine the unaffected ones and they will ultimately end up in my 28 gallon. Then I will strip this aquarium down and start from scratch. I'm just sick of it. No matter how well I take care of the tank, it is diseased. I also have never been able to relieve my algae problem, (though that is much better with the new light fixture) even with only eight hours of light a day and it is heavily planted. I am at my whits end. I have tried sooooo many different things for this tank. It is a money pit and is really annoying me. :-(


As far as diseases and medications go, I am useless.

But I read that you have an algae issue, and I thought it might be useful to point out that your high nitrates can contribute to large amounts of algae. (I too battle the war on algae in my smaller tank, while my larger one is okay.)

I agree that fish keeping can be expensive (gardening too lol), its when you find it unenjoyable that you should back out. Dont give up if you still love doing it. But it does seem there is always some sort of issue with any tank that requires money. lol 

Hang in there.


----------



## Kaddock (Oct 23, 2007)

Oh I will hang in, it's just super frustrating! I actually usually have close to 0 nitrates in my ten gallon, it's the 38 that usually has a higher level. Weird.


----------



## LasColinasCichlids (Jan 4, 2011)

Kaddock said:


> Oh I will hang in, it's just super frustrating! I actually usually have close to 0 nitrates in my ten gallon, it's the 38 that usually has a higher level. Weird.


Yeah, both my tanks have the same water parameters (20ppm Nitrates, 0 nitrites, 0 ammonia) and the 5 gallon is the one with the algae issue verses the 29 gallon.

Good Luck with it all. And sorry you had to put down your gourami.


----------

