# Setting Up New 10g Tank - Need Advice



## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Howdy,

I just finished setting up a 10g tank to move my new fish into. Here are the pertinent facts:

3 Mollys
2 Guppy
2 Platy

In a 2G holding tank.

So, I have a brand new 10g Tank.

I just washed and cleaned my tank stones and put them in the bottom.
I filled the tank with water.
Added Safe2O
Added Big Als Multi Purpose Bio Support

I also put in two bunches of LIVE PLANTS (cabomba).

Filter has been running almost 24 hours with the Safe2O.
I put in the Multi Purpose Bio only a few hours ago.

So, when can I start bringing over the fish?

Thanks in advance.

Big Fish in a new hobby.:lol::-D


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## Twistersmom (Dec 9, 2008)

Hello Big Fish & welcome to the forum!

Is the Safe20 used to dechlorinate? If the water is free of chlorine then it should be safe to start moving the fish over.

Congrats on the new tank!

Not sure how much you have read up on cycling a new tank. The bio Support will help, but keep a close eye on ammonia and nitrite levels for a while. You want to keep both under .25 ppm with water changes.
If you do not already have a test kit, the API freshwater testing kit is a good one to have. Most stores will test water for free, but I find it handy to be able to test at home.

Good luck with the new tank!


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## artgalnj (Jun 27, 2009)

Do you have test kits (ammonia, nitrite and nitrate at the very least)? This is SO important IMO. People are willing to spend good money on filters, lights, plants, rocks, fish, etc and don't bother with test kits. It should be a part of setting up a new aquarium. At least have ammonia and nitrite on hand to begin with if you can't afford a master kit. Ammonia and nitrite are the first 2 in the nitrogen cycle.

Personally I wouldn't put all of the fish in there at once, but if they're in a 2.5 g holding tank right now I can't say that's a better situation for them (2.5g is small for 7 fish). Even w/ the live plants you're probably still have an ammonia spike & nitrite spike. I know some folks are alot more rebellious than I am but if it was my tank I would be ready for DAILY water testing and be prepared for partial water changes at any given moment. If you can get your hands on some established filter floss (perhaps from someone w/ an established healthy tank) you may get through the new tank syndrome phase faster. Google new tank syndrome. You'll find alot of sites w/ useful information.

Beginner FAQ: The Nitrogen Cycle 

Here's one to get you started on cycling a new tank. Good luck! And get test kits...


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Hey, thanks for the quite responses.

I was at Big Al's early today. They were out of kits. That was the first thing I tried to buy. I will check in Wed.

The Safe2O is to declorinate. I did this yesterday and started up the filter. Both have been going 24 hours. The Multipurpose is for bacteria. 

The 2G is way too small, I realize that. We are simply holding them there until it is safe to go into the Big Boy. 

I have to wait until Wed or so for the kit. I would prefer to put them in the big tank. I would think they would be better off, no?


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

just thought id say hello and welcome.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Thank you. Hello to you as well. Nice to be here.

I read the FAQ. So, I am shooting blind without the kit.

I would think that with the bacteria culture I have introduced, the new tank, the new filters running 24 hours and the proper chemicals for chlorine, it should be safer for them than the 2G bowl?

My rush to move them from the 2G bowl is that I feel that is the worst place for them.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Big Fish said:


> Thank you. Hello to you as well. Nice to be here.
> 
> I read the FAQ. So, I am shooting blind without the kit.
> 
> ...


Yes, you are absolutely correct in your thinking. You have two things in your favour, the plants and the biological supplement. The latter adds bacteria [I'm not directly familiar with this particular product, but I understand that it works like others such as Cycle and Stress Zyme] and the bacteria will multiply as they consume the ammonia produced by the fish and the nitrite produced by the first set of bacteria. It takes 9-18 hours for the two bacteria to double [nitrosomonas bacteria convert ammonia and ammonium to nitrite and can multiply every 9 hours, and nitrospira/nitrobacter bacteria convert nitrite to nitrate and can multiply somewhere up to 18 hours] and this they will both do as long as there is food to warrant it.

The benefit of plants is that they immediately absorb ammonia and nitrite, and internally convert it to ammonium which they need for photosynthesis. In a relatively heavily-planted aquarium, more ammonia and nitrite are actually consumed by the plants than by all the bacteria [according to Diana Walstad who cycles her new tanks in one day simply by using plants]. I do the same, although I also add Stability [and previously have used Cycle] as an added precaution since it can do no harm. Cabomba is a fast growing plant (moreso that say rooted plants like swords and crypts) and therefore requires more of the food so that's another plus. Make sure the tank light is on for an adquate period or photosynthesis cannot occur.

You can and should (once you have a test kit) check ammonia and nitrite periodically; if either level rises a partial water change will help. But from what you have indicated, I wouldn't expect to see ammonia or nitrite above 0.

Byron.

P.S., I'm probably reading more into your comment about filters running 24 hours, but just to be safe, the filter must remain running permanently. The bacteria that will colonize it need oxygen from water passing through, or they will die off. Of course, there will be far more bacteria living in the tank (on plant leaves, tank walls, substrate, wood...) than in the filter, but nevertheless it pays to keep it running, and for other reasons as well.


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

the extra volume will be much better for them.
will you be able to get a test kit ?


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## artgalnj (Jun 27, 2009)

At this point, I would say that the 10g is better than the 2.5g. Either way you're going to go through the break in process of cycling a tank. If you're going to transfer them, try to bag them (using water from the 2.5g), tie the bag up like they do in the fish store, float the bag for 20 minutes or so in the 10g (keep lights off), and after 20 minutes open the bag, fold the top over a couple of times so that the bag floats on the surface. Begin adding small amounts of water from the 10 gallon into the bag every 10 - 15 minutes until you double the amount of water they started in. This way you slowly acclimate them to the new tank water. Your water parameters may be different in each tank. Twistersmom told me to do this when I transfered my fish from their 20g into the 75g. It's time consumming but it was alot less stressful on the fish to acclimate them slowly to the new tank. It was a great piece of advice that I will follow whenever adding fish to a tank.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

I will buy a test kit by Wed. That is when they said they would stock again. I am also going to go to the local mall and see if the pet store there has one. 

When I said I had run the filter 24 hours, that is how long it has been since I started preparing the tank. The filter will now run forever!  

So, I am going ahead then. I have put the fish in a bag to get them used to the temperature of the big tank. It is close, but I will let the get used to the temperature and then transfer.

I will also try to post a picture later after they swim around a bit and I figure out how to get a picture posted! 

Thanks


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Big Fish said:


> I will buy a test kit by Wed. That is when they said they would stock again. I am also going to go to the local mall and see if the pet store there has one.
> 
> When I said I had run the filter 24 hours, that is how long it has been since I started preparing the tank. The filter will now run forever!
> 
> ...


Mix the water, this is very important. Whenever I transfer fish from one of my tanks to another that is new, I net them out into a pail of the established tank water, half full, then slowly add water from the new tank; depending upon the degree of difference in temp and pH and hardness (all three are very important, not just temp) this can be done with 2 additons or longer with more. I then net the fish from the pail into the tank.

You can do much the same with a plastic bag; float it to equalize the temp, then add a half cup or so of tank water to the bag, wait 15 minutes, add more, and so on. Then net the fish out of the bag.

You could, as it is your tank they're coming from, tip the bag and let the fish swim out with the water. But never do this with fish from stores. You don't need the pathogens and waste in the water in your tank.

Byron.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Thanks Byron,

The transfer is complete. They look happy enough. I have two pictures, but have no idea how to transfer them so you can have a look!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Big Fish said:


> I will buy a test kit by Wed. That is when they said they would stock again. I am also going to go to the local mall and see if the pet store there has one.
> 
> When I said I had run the filter 24 hours, that is how long it has been since I started preparing the tank. The filter will now run forever!
> 
> ...


The API test kits are highly recommended by many on here. Nutrafin also make them, as does Tetra. Make sure they are liquid test kits, not test strips. Its worth getting a good one, your fish's health is going to depend on the results being accurate.

Also, most manufacturers now say their kits will be good for one year from first use. After that, they will not guarantee the results being accurate. Some also specify a limited shelf life from the time of manufacture.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

API is the one I am looking for, thanks. I will pick one up as soon as I can.


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## Twistersmom (Dec 9, 2008)

As alway, great advice from Artgalnj and Byron!

Can't wait to see your pictures!
You may find this helpful. http://www.fishforum.com/freshwater-fish-pictures-videos/how-upload-pictures-18569/


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Big Fish said:


> Thanks Byron,
> 
> The transfer is complete. They look happy enough. I have two pictures, but have no idea how to transfer them so you can have a look!


Assuming the pics are digital, load them onto your computer in a file/folder. Then on here, when you do a new post in this thread, under the "Additional Options" below you'll see a button "Manage Attachments", click on that, then click on "Browse" on your computer, find the file/folder, and click "Upload". When it has, close the attachments window. You can click Preview" to see the message with the photo to confirm it worked. B.


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## artgalnj (Jun 27, 2009)

Twistersmom said:


> As alway, great advice from Artgalnj


See, you taught me well Twistersmom! Great advice is worth passing along. BTW, Byron was awesome in helping me pick out the lights for my 75g. His tanks were an inspiration for me to jump into the planted tank world. ;-)

Don't forget to post pics of your fish when you have the chance.


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## kcmom2four (Aug 23, 2009)

oops


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

*Big Fish, the new 10g Tank!*

The first is a picture of the tank while I am getting it ready.

The second is with the happy new occupants.

For those who did not see my first post, the fish are:


3 Mollys
2 Guppies
2 Platy

They are great today!! Fed them this morning. One thing I don't like is how the filter shoots the food around the tank! 

I dropped it in and because it moves the water, the food swirled and the fish had to chase it all over the tank. I turned the filter on to minimum but it didn't reduce the movement by too much.

Thanks for everyones help, greatly appreciated.

PS: Threw my back out last night! I think I have a prolapsed disc! Oh the joy! :roll:


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## Twistersmom (Dec 9, 2008)

Your tank looks very nice!

Sorry to hear about your back! Hope you feel better soon.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Thanks, my daughter picked the ornaments and the fish. Not my taste (castle), but she loves them. I picked the blue gravel, plants and florescent lighting.

I have lower back muscle problem. Currently hunched over like I am 90. I got the usual back relaxant script and anti-inflammatory + pyshio. Should be good to go in a week or two. It happens. 

Now, funny thing.... do fish react to you??? I got home from the doctor, went to the aquarium and they all bunched where I had my face close to the glass. Do they associate you with feeding?

Very cool if they do!!!


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## Twistersmom (Dec 9, 2008)

Yes, fish learn very quickly that you feed them.
If you feed them on a schedule, same time everyday, somehow they know when it is close to feeding time and become much more active.

Some fish are more observant then others. My rainbow darters pay more attention to whats going on outside their tank, they always have their eyes on me.


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## aunt kymmie (Jun 2, 2008)

Fish can be very programmable. I've got a bristlenose plec that hides ALL day. As soon as the moonlights kick on he comes to the right front corner of the tank, where he waits until I drop an algae wafer in front of him. I'm convinced he knows exactly what he's doing. 

Sorry about your back. I hope you feel better soon!


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

aunt kymmie said:


> Sorry about your back. I hope you feel better soon!


Thanks, I should be much better in a few days. I am prone to this!

Well, that is too funny. I had no idea. This is going to be my little secret so I can impress my better half with my fishmiester-magnatism.:lol::lol:

Something else I have noticed today. My lights are increasing the water temperature by 2 degrees!!

I have a 15 WATT and a Florescent Lamp. Both generate a fair amount of heat. Left unattened, I can see this can cause problems. How do some of you handle this?

I just thought of something, in an emergency, how do you bring the temperature down? 

Thanks.

And, by the way, I greatly appreciate all your responses.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Big Fish said:


> Thanks, I should be much better in a few days. I am prone to this!
> 
> Well, that is too funny. I had no idea. This is going to be my little secret so I can impress my better half with my fishmiester-magnatism.:lol::lol:
> 
> ...


Are you saying you have two lights, a fluorescent tube and something else? The fluorescent will be quite sufficient over a 10g, assuming it is in the tank hood or sitting on the cover glass and is not longer than the tank. Fluorescent tubes produce less heat than incadescent, but there is some; leaving the tank cover partly open (but not if you have jumping fish that will jump out) for air cirulation works. 

Also limit the time the light is on; for cabomba (a higher-light plant) I would want the light on minimum 8 hours; a timer works well because plants (and fish frankly) do better with regular light/dark periods. When I worked I had the timer set so it would be on when I was home to view the tanks, but otherwise you can choose any regular period. Make sure there is light in the room, whether daylight from a window or a lamp, when the tank lights come on and go off; the sudden change can startle the fish.

What sort of emergency? If a faulty heater overheats, remove the heater and replace it with a new one that works, and let the tank cool back down on its own. Gradual changes are less stressful that sudden fluctuations in temperature whether up or down.

Byron.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

I have a hood on the tank that has two screw in light receptacles. One has a 15W and the other, I replaced with a screw in florescent lamp.

I guess I will remove the 15W and put the florescent over the plant side of the tank. Good idea to use a timer. I will set that up.

So, the best thing to do is let the tank sit if the temp goes up too high. Thanks. I have opened the flap at the front as well to let the air circulate as the lamps cool down.


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## artgalnj (Jun 27, 2009)

Tank looks great Big Fish! Hope your back feels better soon!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Big Fish said:


> I have a hood on the tank that has two screw in light receptacles. One has a 15W and the other, I replaced with a screw in florescent lamp.
> 
> I guess I will remove the 15W and put the florescent over the plant side of the tank. Good idea to use a timer. I will set that up.
> 
> So, the best thing to do is let the tank sit if the temp goes up too high. Thanks. I have opened the flap at the front as well to let the air circulate as the lamps cool down.


If the bulbs have a screw base then a compact fluorescent would work. They produce very little heat. I would use two to even the light, and probably the bulbs that are equivalent to 25 regular watts of light (not sure the CF wattage for this). I've seen them in different light colours, by which I mean cool white, warm white, intense white. Cool white leans toward blue, warm towards red. A mix of one of each might look fine, you can experiment; the bulbs can be used in regular lamps of course, so not wasted. B.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Art, thanks on both. The Arthrotec and Apo-Tizanidine have taken the edge off and the spasms have stopped so I am in good shape.

Byron,

I have a Colormax 20 Watt Mini Compact Corallife Daylite Lamp (screw base-amazing light). These puppies are not cheap. With tax... $30! I will go get another one when I get the test kit.

I really love the look these lamps give the tank. It is that fish store look. Way, way better than the incandescent lamp that was in the hood originally. No comparison. The bottom of the tank just glows and fish look more vibrant.


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

hopes you feel better soon.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Thank you Willow. I had a good night last night, but I suspect this will take a good week.

I have a new concern now as we move along. Cleaning the bottom. Part of the "kit" I have includes a siphon for vaccuming the bottom. I have never done this before. Any tips on how often I should do this and what the technic is?

Greatly appreciate your comments.

Thanks


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Most of us vacuum the substrate when doing the weekly partial water change. You can run the syphon tube along the top of the gravel to collect any mulm sitting there, and where there are no plants push it very slightly into the gravel to stir it up and remove the smaller particles that have begun to work their way down. With plants, this mulm is food so you don't want to remove all of it. As I have plants and corys, I tend to go into the gravel in the areas I can see that have no plants so the crys have a cleaner substrate to sift through when feeding.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

OK, those are all good points. I will give it a shot later this afternoon. Thanks


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Are bottom feeders a good thing?

If so, what would you recommend for a 10G tank? My setup is listed in my first post in this thread.

Thanks


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Big Fish said:


> Are bottom feeders a good thing?
> 
> If so, what would you recommend for a 10G tank? My setup is listed in my first post in this thread.
> 
> Thanks


More than anything, bottom feeders add interest by being active mostly along the substrate. They may eat food that falls to the bottom, depending upon species of fish. Unlike what most of us were told when we started out, they do not clean the substrate; the aquarist still has to vacuum regularly. But I always like to include them for the interest factor.

In a 10g you haven't a lot of space left with 3 mollies, 2 platies and 2 guppies, but if you're regular with the weekly partial water change and don't overfeed I would suggest a group of small corydoras, 3-5. Most of the species max out at around 2 iches, but there are a few that get larger and I would avoid those only because they will increase the bioload and at 4 inches are better suited to larger tanks. The commonly-named "emerald" cory in petstores is usually Brochis splendens, related to the Corydoras but one of the larger ones to avoid in a 10g. The common "peppered" cory (Corydoras paleatus) is nice, and the common green cory (Corydoras aeneus) also, and both are regularly available. But there are many others very interesting in pattern and behaviour, and you might want to browse around; you can check out species info with photos at this site PlanetCatfish • the online home of aquarium catfishes

I went back through this thread and didn't see any info on your water parameters, but in Toronto I woldn't expect your water to be too hard and alkaline. Livebearers (the fish you have now) do better in slightly basic (alkaline) water with a pH above 7.0, and corys would manage OK as long as your pH is below 8.0, especially the commonly-available ones that are now mostly tank or pond-raised and thus better adapted to this water. Corydoras originate from South America in waters usually slightly to quite acidic, but this is of significance if you get wild caught fish; the more commonly-available commercially raised varieties have adapted well.

I mentioned getting 3-5 because corydoras are social fish that should be kept in a group, and I have found three to be the minimum. Three peppered and 2 green would be OK, they get along with each other regardless of species, although I have found they do like at least one of their own species for comfort. A couple of good quality tablet/sinking pellet foods will ensure they get their nutrition; drop in one or two tabs when feeding the flake and they'll find it, or drop the tablets in after the light goes out; corydoras are active during the night, unlike the other fish.

Byron.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Byron,

I love your posts!  They answer my questions well and scare me to death at the same time! LOL

So, I now have to learn about water parameters!! SHIVER-ME-TIMBERS! 

OK, so, if the bottom feeders add to the stress of the bio-load, I would rather populate the tank with more interesting fish. I also think I am going to have a problem with the Molly's. I have two males and one female. The larger male is very amorous and has been doing the "nasty" non stop lately. I suspect there may be an increase in the Molly population soon. That is going to be a whole new headache wading into unchartered waters!!! I will wait and see before I panic. How can you tell if the female is prego?

My favorites in the tank currently are the Red Platy. They are very attractive and I would like to add another pair, maybe a different type. How can I figure out when I am maxed out?

Thanks again, you have been a treasure trove of information and help and I greatly appreciate the detail of your answers.

Big Fish


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Big Fish said:


> Byron,
> 
> I love your posts!  They answer my questions well and scare me to death at the same time! LOL
> 
> ...


Thank you. If you have male and female mollies or platys they will breed non-stop. You will have hundreds of fry in no time. That being the case, I would not add any more fish. [I had missed this point previously.] Your problem is going to be what to do with the fry. If left in the tank, the other fish will eat some of them, but many will likely survive. Better have a room of tanks ready:lol: or find a store or someone to take them.

The advantage (depending upon how one views things) of egglayers is that they will often spawn but the eggs are quickly (within seconds usually) gobbled up by other fish. With livebearers, the fry have a better chance of darting into plants, and finding food is not usually a problem for them at their size. And once a female is impregnated, she can deliver fry every 3-4 weeks and for several months from just one mating. This is why those who want to selectively breed strains have to separate the young almost immediately; the fish develop the ability to mate very early, and once mated the female is no longer useful for selective breeding.

Enjoy your livebearers. I'll bet this post has really scared you.;-)

Byron.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

OH BOY!!! [wacking the side of my head!]

Well, finding someone to take them is out. So, that leaves a store, I guess. Wasn't counting on this. I guess I will have to make a few phone calls. I need this like a hole in the head!:lol:

Several MONTHS!!!!!!! Come on!! Seriously? How many fry are delivered at a time? Maybe, it would be best to give up the female now before this starts. How can you tell she is ready to start popping them out?:roll:

This isn't going to go over well with the young fish lover in the house! Every fish has a name!:shock:

The Platys and the guppies I have are two male pairs so there is no worries about breeding. 

Are stores typcially receptive to FREE FISH from unknown tanks? These originally came from Big Al's.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Big Fish said:


> OH BOY!!! [wacking the side of my head!]
> 
> Well, finding someone to take them is out. So, that leaves a store, I guess. Wasn't counting on this. I guess I will have to make a few phone calls. I need this like a hole in the head!:lol:
> 
> ...


It's been 20 years since i last had livebearers, so i checked around and here's a site with info that is as i remember things. Black Molly

It mentiones a female delivering 60 fry every 2.5 months, and also talks about what I mentioned previously about impregnation and the importance of separating males and females quickly after birth. You can find info on platys, but if memory serves me they are very similar.

Each store has its own policy on taking fish I expect, probably dependant upon how many they can sell and what, if anything, you want for them in return. You'd probably have plenty of takers in Vancouver, since with our very soft water livebearers do not fare well unless one provides the harder alkaline (basic) water they need to be healthy. The owner of the 2 Big Al's stores here told me a week or so back that he seldom sees customers bringing in livebearer fry like he would elsewhere in NA because with our water the fish don't last long. He treats his water and sells quite a few livebearers brought in from suppliers.

Byron.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Well, if I could ship to him, I would... gladly! LOL

I have concluded my tank maintanence for the first week. I vacuumed the bottom, got a fair amount of the stuff out of the gravel. I took out 2 gallons of water before I stopped.

I have poured back in clean, declorinated water and added the new tank, Multi-Purpose again for bacteria.

The water does not seem quite as clear as I would like. Is this normal? Overall, the tank is clean. Just a tad cloudy. Fish seem very happy, swimming around. In fact, the guppies have become more vibrant in color.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Big Fish said:


> Well, if I could ship to him, I would... gladly! LOL
> 
> I have concluded my tank maintanence for the first week. I vacuumed the bottom, got a fair amount of the stuff out of the gravel. I took out 2 gallons of water before I stopped.
> 
> ...


Yes, perfectly normal after a pwc [although I can't see it to be sure it is normal cloudy or abnormal cloudy;-)]. All the very fine stuff stirred up takes a while to settle or get trapped in the filter, whichever. I find mine are "clear" the following day. A pwc is a trick used to push fish into spawning, as the change in water chemistry (however slight it may be) simulates a tropical rainstorm which triggers spawning in the fish at the start of the rainy season when the land floods and food is plentiful. There's usually more activity in general after a pwc.

Byron.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

It is a very slight cloudy so I suspect it is the fine stuff stirred up. I have turned up the volume on the filter to max to work it through the filter. Fish are very energetic, especially the Mollies. Boy-oy. Non stop action with these two!! LOL

Is there a technic for getting more crud out of the bottom of the tank and less water. I would like to take more time with the suction but the water it moves seems to be pretty quick. 2g disappeared in no time and I stopped draining. I focused on the open areas and most of it seem to be in the front. Someone told me to slant the gravel at the bottom of the tank from back to front and it would push the waste to the front. Seemed to work. Most of it seemed up front. I did move the gravel a bit and it did dislodge stuff quickly, as you suggested in an earlier post.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Food Question.

I have purchased a couple more containers of food and I am mixing the food together before dropping it in the tank.

I have:

Wardley Essentials Tropical Fish Flakes
Wardley Essentials Guppy Flakes
Big Als Spirulina Color enhancement Flake Food

I am feeding 3 times a day and there is a frenzy when I come near the tank. Pretty hilarious. Who knew fish could be trained! LOL

Any downside to what I am doing?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Big Fish said:


> It is a very slight cloudy so I suspect it is the fine stuff stirred up. I have turned up the volume on the filter to max to work it through the filter. Fish are very energetic, especially the Mollies. Boy-oy. Non stop action with these two!! LOL
> 
> Is there a technic for getting more crud out of the bottom of the tank and less water. I would like to take more time with the suction but the water it moves seems to be pretty quick. 2g disappeared in no time and I stopped draining. I focused on the open areas and most of it seem to be in the front. Someone told me to slant the gravel at the bottom of the tank from back to front and it would push the waste to the front. Seemed to work. Most of it seemed up front. I did move the gravel a bit and it did dislodge stuff quickly, as you suggested in an earlier post.


There are varying views as to how much vacuuming of the substrate should be done. In a planted tank, many recommend little if any, as the mulm breaks down and bacteria convert it to nitrogen and such for the plants especially those with good root systems (as opposed to stem and floaters). I usually go over the gravel in the open areas because the corys feed there and I like to keep it tidy for them. I go down about 1/2 an inch I guess in these places; otherwise I tend to run the syphon tube over the surface without really dislodging the gravel, and I make sure to get around the small plants like the pygmy chain swords because stuff can build up around them quickly and some plant authorities suggest this is detrimental to the plants.

If you go down very far you will disturb the bacteria down there which I personally think it better not to do. They are there for a purpose, whether aerobic or anaerobic, and its all part of the biological equilibrium in the tank. There is quite a comlex process going on in the substrate, between the plant roots (which produce oxygen for some of the bacteria), the aerobic bacteria, and the anaerobic bacteria.

Are you using a manual water changer, or one connected to a faucet (like the Python model)? If the latter, you can vary the amount of water at the tap, less water turned on means less suction so less is drawn out of the tank. The manual ones run as they do, and yes, it can be quick. I've never seen a manual one with a guage to adjust.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Big Fish said:


> Food Question.
> 
> I have purchased a couple more containers of food and I am mixing the food together before dropping it in the tank.
> 
> ...


Goodness me, I can't keep up with you!:lol: Must be few others online, or I'm sure they'd be jumping in. Anyway, I'm here, so...

My one suggestion would be to forget the colour enhancing food. I've no scientific evidence, so this is purely my own thinking and may be wrong, but I suspect there are things in that food that may not be the best in nourishment. In another thread or perhaps another forum, I recall recently reading that some aquarists feel there are chemicals or other substances in the food (the colour enhancers) that the fish really don't need. Better to feed natural foods. Again, this is only passing on what I've read. I've looked at these cans in the store and always put them down fairly quickly.

I use Wardley's Essential flakes as one of my three or four regulars, along with Tetra, OSI and Nutrafin, all "basic" flakes. I also have Earthworm flakes (haven't used these yet, saw them and knowing how nutritious earthworms are for larger fish I though the hatchets and characins might like it). And freeze dried bloodworms, handy for surface fish because they are chunky but float like small insects. And then I have 3 types of sinking tablet/pellet food, one being a vegetable (spirulina/algae) because of the Farlowella and Whiptail but all the fish go after it so they're getting their veggies too.

I would probably reduce feedings to twice a day, or even once. I read in one article that all the nutrition a normal fish requires for the day can be found in just one flake. And of course many go away on vacation for a week or even two and say they don't bother having the fish fed, if they are healthy beforehand. I feed flake and tablet in the morning, about an hour or so after the tank lights come on; and in the early evening I feed frozen bloodworms or frozen daphnia. I actually only do the latter because I have a few species of fish in both tanks that are wild caught and will not eat anything but live or frozen bloodworms (I've managed to wean them onto this). I see some of them picking at flake in the morning, but I'm not sure how much they actually eat.

Fish are pretty quick to learn things where food is concerned. When I was working I had to leave here before dawn so I never fed the fish in the morning. Always first thing when I got home at 6 pm. And they knew it. Every day, even on weekends when I was here and around the tanks, they would all congregate at the top left corner (where i always fed them) around 5-6 but basically ignored me the earlier part of the day simply because they did not expect food then. And now that I feed them in the morning, they do the same, but if I go into the fishroom at noon I do not get the same response. But around 5 pm (when I now feed the bloodworms), they are ready; and the three spotted woodcats (they are one of the bloodworms-only eaters) in the 115g that are totally nocturnal and spend the daylight inside tunnels in the wood, know and are sitting at the tunnel entrances looking and waiting, and as soon as the glass slides back they are charging around the wood in a circle. When I close the tank lid afterwards, they disappear back into their tunnels until total darkness descends.

Fascinating hobby isn't it--and a fascinating world.

Byron.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

> Goodness me, I can't keep up with you!

Well, this is all new to me and I figure it is best to ask while the fish are moving around the bottom of the tank rather than just floating upside down on the top!! :lol:;-)

I hear you on both counts.

The siphon I am using is a simple manual one. A big cylinder and a hose. I will stick with this for now. As this is all new and novel, I don't mind the work. Later, if this remains as interesting, I will invest in a bigger tank and better equipment.

Sorry to place a heavy question burden on you. I do have one more question about that cloudy water.

How can I tell if it is the WRONG cloudy water? If this is all stirred up stuff, then it should clear by late evening with the help of the filter. If not, what then?


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Byron said:


> If you go down very far you will disturb the bacteria down there which I personally think it better not to do. They are there for a purpose, whether aerobic or anaerobic, and its all part of the biological equilibrium in the tank. There is quite a comlex process going on in the substrate, between the plant roots (which produce oxygen for some of the bacteria), the aerobic bacteria, and the anaerobic bacteria.


I went down about a half inch. Basically, I disturbed the surface to get the fish doo-doo up. As I did that, you could clearly see it coming up. I was surprised at the amount!!! The seem to poop constantly.

I haven't lost a fish yet and it has been almost 3 weeks so I must be doing something right or I am just lucky. Hope I haven't jinx myself!! :lol:

Thanks again, greatly appreciate the time and effort you spend on the responses!!:-D


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Quick Update on Cloudy Water....

Byron,

Tank is crystal this morning.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Big Fish said:


> Quick Update on Cloudy Water....
> 
> Byron,
> 
> Tank is crystal this morning.


Good. That means it was the "normal" cloudiness following a pwc. I didn't respond yesterday as I was offline, back on just now. 

Yes, as I recall livebearers produce a fair amount of waste, and of course the more you feed them the more there will be; I gather you're considering reducing the feeding, probably a good idea. The other thing about overfeeding is that it quickens their metabolism [not sure i've got the right word] which is like wearing them out sooner. As with other animals including we humans, overeating is not a good idea.

Everything seems to be on track. Looking back through this thread, you have plants and used a biological supplement, and with that I expected things would be fine and after a week they seem to be from your posts. Good work.

Byron.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Byron said:


> Good Work


 
Thank you, Master! ;-)

Yes, so far, I am delighted with the results. And, I couldn't have done it without you!

OK, I am going to cut down the feeding. I will admit, it is hard to do. I like watching them eat.

It is a nurturing thing. I think I will feed twice a day.

Again, can't thank you enough for the help. Forums like this are a major contribution to any hobby. Especially, people like you who put in the time. I, for one, greatly appreciate the time you have spent guiding me.

Right now, as I type this, the family is admiring the tank! :-D and... they want to FEED THEM!!! LOL


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Big Fish said:


> Thank you, Master! ;-)
> 
> Yes, so far, I am delighted with the results. And, I couldn't have done it without you!
> 
> ...


You're welcome sincerely; keep us all posted on progress. Best wishes, Byron.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Byron (or anyone else who wishes to respond to give Byron a break! lol)

My green cabomba plants are flourishing. So much so, I already need to trim them.

I was told to cut them from the bottom. Now, since the bottoms are nicely rooted and the plant itself can regenerate from any cut part (from what I have noticed in the aquarium) is it safe to simply cut it in half along the stem and stick the cut part back into the bottom of the tank as a new growth?

I believe these re-root themselves quickly.

Thanks


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Big Fish said:


> Byron (or anyone else who wishes to respond to give Byron a break! lol)
> 
> My green cabomba plants are flourishing. So much so, I already need to trim them.
> 
> ...


Yes they will. The bottom part may do one of two things; either remain "as is" and perhaps fade/die off, or send out new shoots from the point where the top was cut. It's been years since I experimented with cabomba and I can't be sure on this, but I know some stem plants will do the latter.

Most find that the bottom portions of stem plants tend to loose ther leaves (probably due to less light getting down to them) as the uper portions aproach the surface (and spread along it if allowed to), which is why pruning generally takes the form of pulling up the plant and cutting off the top part to replant and tossing out the lower. That's how I do my Pennywort.

Cabomba is not an easy plant for many of us, so you are doing something right. Keep on with it.

Byron.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

*API Freshwater Kit finally arrived!!!*

I did my wter testing this evening.....

PH: 7.6
Am: 2.0
Ni: 0
Na: 0

Is this any good?


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## Twistersmom (Dec 9, 2008)

I always try to keep both ammonia and nitrites under .25 ppm with fish in the tank.
I would do a water change to lower that ammonia.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

I just complete a PWC. 

I also read up on the CYCLE again. I think I am over feeding.:roll: I like feeding the little buggers but I suspect this is the cause. 

Also, my API MASTER KIT finally came in so now I am a budding chemist.

After a PWC, do you test the water right away or wait a bit? 

Thanks


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Big Fish said:


> I just complete a PWC.
> 
> I also read up on the CYCLE again. I think I am over feeding.:roll: I like feeding the little buggers but I suspect this is the cause.
> 
> ...


I wait a bit after a pwc to do any tests, but then I only test for pH after a pwc. Tests for ammonia or nitrite should be done before the pwc, and then a few minutes after if you had either above "0" before the pwc.

I am concerned about the ammonia reading of 2, are you sure? I am assuming this tank is cycled. And I believe you have plants in this tank? If yes, there should never be ammonia or nitrite readings. Might want to re-test; and check the expiry date on the regeant, it is on the bottom of the bottle, the last four numbers are the expiry date, e.g., 0410 means April 2010.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

I have live plants. 2 types of the same kind... Cobomba. Still very healthy and growing.

I am very sure. The colors were between 1 and 2. In my opinion, the greens are too close together in shades on the strip! However, there was no lime green color in it so I have to say 2.

I will do another test now and see what it says and repost.

There are no dates per say on the bottom, just LOT Numbers.

They all end in 09, so I have to think this is fresh stuff. I just came into the store as they have been OoS for two weeks! I think these are MADE ON THIS DATE dates.

I will re-run the test now...


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Byron,

The reading now is definitly 1.0. NO..... I still say 2.0.
I asked for a second opinion on the color. It is still 2!!

What should I do?

I have:
Safe2O
Prime
All Purpose
Chemicals handy...


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Big Fish said:


> Byron,
> 
> The reading now is definitly 1.0. NO..... I still say 2.0.
> I asked for a second opinion on the color. It is still 2!!
> ...


First, to get it out of the way, re the expiry date on API regeants: The 09 means the regeant expires this year, on the month which would be the two numbers immediatly before 09, e.g., if the lot number ends in ...0709 it means it expired in July this year. You need to check these in the store before buying them; they might have been on the store shelf for months. Once I had found this out (from API) I checked my kits and discovered they had actually expired before I bought them. Now, having said that, I have had some test kits working fine years later (pH and hardness kits, I know they worked because I have checked them against brand new kits with identical results). I dug back through my info as i came across this stuff in another forum, and I can't track it down at the moment, so I acknowledge I may be mixing things up but I don't think so. I'l try to get an answer direct from API (their website says it may take a couple days for a response) and post whatever I discover from them.

As for the ammonia...what do the fish look like? There is a site called the krib which has lots of info on water chemistry and from there I see that with a pH of 7.5 (yours is 7.6) at a temperature of 77F (25C), an ammonia reading of 1.2 is considered dangerous. Here's the link to the page: Beginner FAQ: The Nitrogen Cycle

If the test kit is accurate, I would expect to see some stress in the fish; difficulty respirating, hanging at the surface, red gills open...since ammonia burns the gills. An immediate pwc to reduce the ammonia would be prudent, using Prime water conditioner which you have as it detoxifies ammonia.

But you need to find out what is causing this, if it is really happening. Do you have ammonia in your tap water? Overfeeding (has to be pretty drastic to cause this much ammonia), dead fish (?), recent filter media replacement or rinsing in chlorinated water to kill the bacteria (?), adding a number of new fish (?) are all possible causes. I asked about the plants because plants remove ammonia very fast; new tanks that are reasonably heavily planted cycle immediately with fish. And cabomba is a fast growing plant which means it is using ammonium more quickly than slow growing plants; all this depends upon the fish load of course.

One last thought...those "chemicals handy" you mention...have you put anything other than water conditioner in this tank recently? And what is "Safe20" and "All Purpose"?

Byron.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Here is an example of a Lot number:

83A0609

Fish look fine. No ill effects, nothing out of the ordinary. Swimming fine. Absolutely nothing looks out of the ordinary.

Plants are growing fine. I trimmed them on the weekend and there is more noticable growth.

Fliter is one month old out of the box.

I have changed the water regularly and vacuumed.

I admit I have OVERFEED. I love watching them eat. 2 times a day, a healthy dose, usually, no trace after 5 minutes.

They are seldom near the top, typically looking around, skimming the bottom for more food. The M-F molly are constantly "going at it" or the m chases the other male.

The guppies just flutter around normally. I see no stress.

Water has a slight cloudy ting to it.


I started with 3 Mollies. I added 2 Platy and 2 Guppies. Tank has been going about 4, maybe 5 weeks.

NO DEAD FISH.

Non look ill or even near being ill.

I added a 1/4 cap of PRIME today on the LFS recommendation.

I typically use SAFE 2O from Wardley to remove chlorine before adding water.

The MultiPurpose is a BIO-SUPPORT from Big Al's, their brand, I believe.

Nothing has been added to the tank in weeks, the plants were the last addition.


So, I am at a loss too!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Big Fish said:


> Here is an example of a Lot number:
> 
> 83A0609
> 
> ...


From all this I can see three possibilities.

1. Test kit is inaccurate. It expired in June this year according to the lot number [subject to my confirmation from API on how to read this], but I wouldn't panic over that, in my experience they continue working for months. This is just one possibility, although in my view not likely here.

2. Tank is not yet cycled. Nitrite is 0 as is Nitrate, Ammonia at 2. Have you had any readings for Nitrite previously during the last 2-3 weeks? If yes, then this is probably not the answer, but if you have so far had no nitrite, it could be cycling. [Nitrate I don't worry about, it's the nitrite that will indicate the cycling is/was working through, although again with plants ammonia and nitrite can be zero throughout.]

3. This Multi-Purpose Bio-Support may be the culprit. I checked the Big Al's site, and it has:

[direct cite] Big Al's Multi-Purpose Bio-Support contains 300 million live bacteria per teaspoonful to enhance the growth of any biological filter and reduce ammonia build up. Regular use of Big Al's Multi-Purpose Bio- Support keeps the biological filter working efficiently. *It will help break down harmful organic compounds that cause dangerous conditions*. Continuous use of Big Al's Bio-Support assures a healthy biological filter, good water quality, healthy fish, and a clean aquarium. ...

The bold is my editing. This phrase makes me think it will cause ammonia to increase. In order for any organic compound to break down (through bacteria), ammonia is produced. Solid fish waste is (presumably in their view) such an organic compound, and we all know it produces ammonia as it decomposes, just as dying fish and dying plant leaves do. If this product is actually breaking down organics, then ammonia will occur as a result. Even though it supposedly has live bacteria to reduce ammonia (presumably nitrosomonas bacteria), it takes time for those to catch up.

I came across this in another thread a few weeks back, where an aquarist had high ammonia readings and it turned out to be due to his use of a product by Nutrafin to "clean" the aquarium--can't think of the name at the moment, but I did find a similar product on Big Al's called Multi-Purpose Bio-Clean. On this as on the Nutrafin, it says it may cause a spike in ammonia. Again, this is because of what it does, breaking down organics.

I'd like to know your answer to the nitrite question before offering any suggestion.

Byron.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Byron,

I have no readings from before because I was waiting for the kit to be back in stock. B-A was out of stock for over 2 weeks. Yesterday was the first day I saw it in the store and purchased it and made the readings.

So, I can't tell you what was happening before.

In regards to the Bio Support, there are a couple of extremely knowledgable people in the B-A in my area.

They said that you could add tons of the BIO-Support and it wouldn't harm the fish. He said I could add it freely and weekly and it would only enhance. 

They also told me to drop in a 1/4 cap of PRIME to lock the ammonia and to get an AMMONIA filter.

Best I can tell you. What you posted about the Bio-Support is also what it says on the bottle.

So, I spent $45 yesterday on an EXPIRED KIT. Lovely!!!!


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

I contacted API.

800-847-0659

The lot number is the DATE OF MANUFACTURE. The kit is good for 3 years from that date.

I am good with the kit. We have to assume the 2 reading is correct.

Also, as a last resort, I can bring in a water sample to Big Als', I was just told, they will analyse it and tell me what to do!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I agree that if the Bio-Support is live bacteria, it can't hurt. Anyone who has read any of my posts on cycling new tanks knows that I emphatically encourage aquarists to use a biological supplement as one means of "seeding" a new tank with the necessary bacteria. My point was that this particular product *may* be causing the ammonia to rise. Neither the store clerks nor I know what is in that stuff, nor I suspect are they any more a chemist than I am, so none of us knows all that this will do in an aquarium when it interacts with the biological actions of live fish and numerous types of bacteria--so we are all surmising. As for continuing to add it after the tank is biologically established (cycled), that I do not agree with; dumping unnecessary stuff into an aquarium is not recommended, and if the aquarium is healthy and balanced it is completely unnecessary. And not knowing every component of this product, how do any of us know if there may be something in it that is not that safe in the long term? It is intended as a quick-start in new setups, not for continual use. And in an established aquarium, ammonia and nitrite will always be zero, without exception--unless something is done to upset the balance.

You asked the forum for assistance, I am trying to offer help. I suggest that the use of this product is one possibility for the rise in ammonia. In spite of its claim to reduce ammonia build up, ammonia is building up from something.

I am more inclined however to suspect the tank is not cycled. I think this is the more likely cause under the circumstances.

In my experience that test kit will be accurate for months; as I said, the kits I bought had expired, as I now understand the dating. But I intend to get this confirmed from API. Mine for pH (which is all I bother with now) appear to have expired last year and a couple months ago.

Byron.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

OK, so I need a plan.

Should I do another water change? I can't see how this is good either, but I am a rookie here. Shouldn't it have a chance to "settle"?

The water, after the change this morning is now crystal. The slight murkiness is gone.

Fish still look fine, swimming around doing their thing. I am expecting to see them belly-up any minute!!!!! YIIIKES!! 

Should I run out to the store and get the ammonia pad added to my filter system like they recommended? I was told this works better than anything and lasts 3 months. I can also get the store to test the water and compare it to my results.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Big Fish said:


> OK, so I need a plan.
> 
> Should I do another water change? I can't see how this is good either, but I am a rookie here. Shouldn't it have a chance to "settle"?
> 
> ...


Sorry, I missed some of that before, my fault.

This is a planted tank, and plants need ammonium (which comes from ammonia) to grow. For this reason, I do not believe in using any product that "removes" ammonia. But having said that, most of such products do not remove it, they detoxify it by some means. Some actually do this by converting it into ammonium, which the plants would then use. In acidic water this occurs automatically, ammonia changes into ammonium. But your pH is 7.6 so a product that detoxifies ammonia is fine. * However*... [read on].

The fact that your fish are ding fine [and I do trust your observations] and the ammnia is reading 2 makes me think that it must be ammonium resulting from the biological product. Most test kits (you have the API if memory serve me correctly) read ammonia and ammonium as one, ammonia. So this may exlain why there are no ill effects. And if this is the case, forget the ammonia pads. The plants and the bacteria will handle this. Keep an eye open for the nitrite, although with healthy plants I would not expect to see much if anything with nitrite.

As for water changes, in a nutshell the more the better in most of our aquaria. In nature fish never remain in the same water for more than a second. Water in rivers, streams, even lakes is constantly moving past them, and their numbers in porportion to the volume of water is so minimal it is always fresh water. In a closed aquarium system we cannot hope to match this. All the filters in the world cannot come close to nature; no filter can remove urine and dissolved (liquified) solid waste, so the fish is always swimming in its own excrement, always. Only the partial water change dilutes this mess and provides fresh water. Filters can remove particulate matter and make the water crystal clear, but they cannot completely "clean" it because they can't remove these toxic substances. Plants and bacteria help, and if the fish load were minimal and the plants heavy, as in the days of old, the pwc would not be so critical. One author I recently read said this would work if we maintained 1 neon tetra to every 4 gallons of water in an aquarium that was heavily planted. So your 10g would hold 2 neons and nothing else, and be thick with plants--and no water change would be necessary.

This is why I and others here recomend a pwc once a week at the minimum, in average to heavily stocked aquaria. Discus keepers normally do a 50% water change every day; and Jack Whattley, an authority on discus, has often written of performing three or four such water changes every day in certain situations.

So, to answer your question, no, more pwc cannot hurt your fish. Just don't disturb the gravel or the filter media to avoid removing the bacteria you are trying to encourage.

To be honest, after going through all this agin with your information, I would leave things as they are. I would not use any more of the supplement. I would observe the fish, as you are, and at any sign of trouble do a pwc. But otherwise, do one every week (not disturbing the gravel or filter as previously mentioned).

I expect others like Twistersmom and AuntKymie are following this thread, so they can jump in if they have spotted something else.

Byron.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

OK, I hear you. I will simply observe.

When I vacuum, I touch the gravel in the front and remove quite a bit of stuff from the top. I don't really move the gravel around, just set the vacuum on top and low and behold, it is the Star Trek, beam me up effect. Should I be leaving this alone?

I do this in the front of the tank. I leave the area around the plants alone. What ever happens there, stays there. So, is this method of vacuuming I am doing good or bad? Otherwise, I am not vacuuming per say but just siphoning off water. I do not mess with the filter at all. Sometimes, it loses water if I take the water level below the siphone. I turn it off, then refill it with tank water and power it up when I am through the PWC. Can't see any way around this other than to remove less water.

These 7 fish love to eat. I am now putting in two pinches with each feeding twice a day. I have cut back a bit but now they are agressive when I feed and clean up the food in an instant. 

Question about plants. When is there TOO many plants? I was hoping to find another type as I like the planted look more than the junk we have in the tank. But, I believe you told me the two I have are enough. 

Do you or someone else mind educating me on plants so I understand why I can't put in more?

Thanks

OH!!! before I forget, I was just vegging infront of the tank looking for potential "problems" and I noticed some algea on the glass!!!! Now what!? I can hear the claxons howling! It is just starting and barely noticable. This, I don't like!


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Sound advice has been offered all around,I am at a loss as to ammonia readings and can only offer a couple observations I have made ,or expierienced, while trying to maintain water quality in a glass box.
Prime and tapwater should be all that is needed in nearly all tanks with the exception of those who alter their water to keep sensitive species or wild caught fish. No need for chlorine removing product if Prime is being used.
Forgive me if this has already been addressed,but I might test a sample of tapwater to see if ammonia is present.
There are many products out there that reportedly help boost the nitrification process and I suspect some of them may alter the chemistry of water and or test kit results. I believe ,In not adding anything to the aquarium that is not absolutely needed. In this way, I know without question what is in the water. Mileage varys with these products, and results in my view are not consistent. Again,the views I express are from my own expieriences and are only my opinion. I wish to detract from nor dismiss anyone else's opinion.
I might in this case do as has been suggested,stop with any and all products with the exception of a dechlorinator such as PRIME which will address the ammonia as well as chlorine,and chloramines.
I would also were it me,(and it ain't) reduce feedings to once a day and a smaller amount. This will quickly yield results . I might also reccommend that one ,and only one person, be designated to feed the fish. Have personally seen the affects of two or more family members feeding fish unbeknownst to the others. Hope some of this helps.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Big Fish said:


> OK, I hear you. I will simply observe.
> 
> When I vacuum, I touch the gravel in the front and remove quite a bit of stuff from the top. I don't really move the gravel around, just set the vacuum on top and low and behold, it is the Star Trek, beam me up effect. Should I be leaving this alone?
> 
> ...


1077 has responded previously and we are saying the same thing; please understand, I not being arrogant, just that most of us have gone through these things and learned what works. Now to your questions.

First the gravel vacuuming, that is fine. I do much the same at every weekly pwc. My point on not disturbing it was meant for the cycling period. Bacteria is establishing itself by colonizing every surface in the tank--each grain of gravel, every plant leaf, the tank walls, filter tubes (inside and out), any wood or rocks, and of course the media inside the filter. It takes 2 to 8 weeks for the bacteria to establish itself from scratch at the numbers required to handle the available "food" now in the tank; the food is ammonia for nitrosomonas bacteria and nitrite for nitrospira/nitrobacter bacteria. Once the bacteria are established, they multiply fairly quickly if their specific food increases, and also they die off if it decreases. Once established, normal gravel vacuuming as you do will work fine.

Second, the filter. That's fine; what I meant here was not to clean or replace the media (the pads, material, whatever) for the same reason, encouraging the bacteria to colonize it. Once the tank is biologically established, regular filter maintenance should be rinsing the pads and whatever as needed to keep it free of particulate matter so the water easily flows through it. No need to replace the media until it literally falls apart (pad). As long as it is whole enough to trap particulate matter, and the water is flowing through it and not bypassing it, it is good. Weekly rinses or monthly will depend upon your filter, bioload, etc.

Third the plants. Biologically you can never have too many plants. I don't know how I may have suggested two were the limit, sorry, certainly didn't intend that impression. The number of plants is only limited by the water volume (tank space) and your individual wants. A thick jungle with no swimming room would not be much use with fish; but you can certainly add more than you have. I would suggest some rooted plants like swords. They are easy to grow, low maintenance (stay "as is" with no regular pruning or trimming like you need with cabomba) and will grow fine in any water that cabomba grows well in. My 90g and 115g Amazonian setups are full of several species of Echinodorus (swords), you may want to have a look and see if any appeal to you, I could tell you what they are and how large they grow, etc. Other suggestions are Sagitarria, Vallisneria [the smaller species, some of this grows quite large for a 10g), maybe floating plants, Java Moss on any wood or rock, etc. Here's a good site with plant information and photos: The Planted Tank - Articles, Forums, Pictures, Links Just click on "Plants" to see a photo list of species with information on each. If you want more info on particular species, this site is good: Plant Finder - Encyclopedia of Aquarium Plants You need to know the species name to find info.

Plants are the first and best filtration in an aquarium. They consume ammonia and probably nitrite, and the authorities say that they do this in greater quantity than the bacteria can if the tank is fairly heavily planted. That means very "clean" water for your fish. The filter then does the job of keeing the water "clear" by removing particulate matter. Together, they work to keep your aquarium healthy.

Byron.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Byron, please, at no point have I considered anything you have said to be offensive in any way. No need to apologise for anything. Thank you for your continued help, and to everyone else who jumps in. I am grateful to all.

HEY! Guess what I have now.......SNAILS??? of some sort. Where did these things come from? I must have 6 of these whitish, small things stuck to the aquarium wall where I was starting to get some fuzz.

Is this OK?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Big Fish said:


> Byron, please, at no point have I considered anything you have said to be offensive in any way. No need to apologise for anything. Thank you for your continued help, and to everyone else who jumps in. I am grateful to all.
> 
> HEY! Guess what I have now.......SNAILS??? of some sort. Where did these things come from? I must have 6 of these whitish, small things stuck to the aquarium wall where I was starting to get some fuzz.
> 
> Is this OK?


Are these whitish small things moving, or stationary? B.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

These little white things MOVE. Man, do they move. One minute, a cluster of 6 on one side, the next, you have to go look for them. They get around pretty quick for snails. And, they are very tiny and white.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Big Fish said:


> These little white things MOVE. Man, do they move. One minute, a cluster of 6 on one side, the next, you have to go look for them. They get around pretty quick for snails. And, they are very tiny and white.


Any chance of a photo? I doubt they are snails, more like planaria or something. Some of these things are completely harmless, fish will eat them; but there are some less desirable. I have no experience with these latter; perhaps someone who has can offer some advice.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

*Mystery Snail Photo*

Here is a good shot of a close up of the mystery snail starting to grow in number in the tank.

Note, this is an extreme close up shot with my NIKON. These are extremely tiny and hard. I tried to remove one, they stick on pretty good and they have a hard shell.


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## Twistersmom (Dec 9, 2008)

The shape is much like a bladder snail. Google images of bladder snails and see if that looks right. Bladder snails come in many colors including white.

The snails often hitchhike into your tank, when adding new plants.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Interesting, these are what I know as pond snails. According to the site I just checked [http://www.otocinclus.com/articles/snails.html] they are the same snail. I've brown ones, never seen white. If this is what they are, they won't do harm. Pond snails do not eat plants, but they will help clean up uneaten fish food and decaying lant material. The Malaysian livebearer snail burrows through the gravel, very handy. I like having snails in my aquaria.

Byron.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Go here, this is very, very close in appearance....

http://www.animalpicturesarchive.com/WebImg/289/1208792609-t.jpg

The name of these are: Physa fontinalis

and this looks close to it.


and go here to WikiPedia

Google Image Result for http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Physa_fontinalis.jpg

They seem to multiply quickly. Should I get rid of them or let them eat a bit?


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## Twistersmom (Dec 9, 2008)

If a lot of food is made available to them, they can reproduce quickly.
If you are care full not to over feed your fish, there will not be a problem. If you start seeing more than you would like, you can crush the shell and feed them to your fish as a snack. They will not hurt anything and can be a helpful little clean up crew.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

UPDATE on Ammonia!

I did another PWC and I have 1.0 Ammonia.

I took in a water sample to Big Al's and they confirmed I have AMMONIA.

They believe the filter has not started to do the cycle thing yet and recommended Live Nigrifying Bacteria. 4oz per 10g.

So, I have tossed in the recommended dose and I am not waiting.

My fish do not seem to be affected at all with any symptons. Basically, they look fine, eat ravonously, swim about and show not effects from the ammonia.

Today's tank readings were:

PH: 7.6
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
Ammonia: 1.0+ (again, couldn't decide on 1 or 2, so I went with 1)

One new strange thing I am noticing is the mating mollies seem to love to "suck" on the plants. They don't eat them, but they are constantly nibbling on the leafy part. I have cobumbas in the tank.

I also tried to clean the glass today, tank looks pretty good.

Regarding the snails, I am going to let them do their thing for a bit. Hopefully, they don't overrun the tank. If they do, I will turn them into fish food and that will be that.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Big Fish said:


> They believe the filter has not started to do the cycle thing yet and recommended Live Nigrifying Bacteria. 4oz per 10g.


This should read:

They believe the filter has not started to do the cycle thing yet and recommended Live Nitrifying Bacteria. 4oz per 10g.

I hit the "g" key instead of the "t" key right above it. Oooops!


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## Twistersmom (Dec 9, 2008)

I am a strong believer that you can never do to many water changes. Personally, I would do a 50% water change, then add the bacteria.
If ammonia is still high the next day, I would repeat.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

I did 4 water changes this week! I will check the water again tomorrow and Tuesday and do another if the ammonia levels don't drop.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Does anyone have fish that "eat" or look like they want to eat the plants in the tank? I have cobombas and my fish love to rip and tear at the leaves.

The snail, too, have moved off the glass (I bought a cool Magnet Cleany thing) and the glass is crystal so everyone is not working on my plants!! LOL


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## AquariumEnthusiast (Sep 14, 2009)

I just set up my very first aquarium. It's a 10 gallon glass tank. This thread has been EXTREMELY helpful.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

AE

Welcome to the forum. I am happy my plight is benefiting you!  This is a great place. I am happy to share any of my personal experiences with you. Just ask.

I just bought this magnet glass cleaner. I love it. If you don't have one, consider getting one. It really does a great job on keeping the glass clean of algae.

Get the one that floats. It is snap to use!

Good luck with your new tank! Feel free to take over this "blog" with your own questions. The more the merrier.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Big Fish said:


> Does anyone have fish that "eat" or look like they want to eat the plants in the tank? I have cobombas and my fish love to rip and tear at the leaves.
> 
> The snail, too, have moved off the glass (I bought a cool Magnet Cleany thing) and the glass is crystal so everyone is not working on my plants!! LOL


Some fish are vegetarians and will eat plants, but previously I think you mentioned mollies which are more likely eating (or browsing for) algae on the plant leaves. Same for the snails, if they are the previously-identified pond or bladder snails, they do not eat healthy plants but graze over the leaves eating algae and microscopic food.

Byron.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Byron,

The mollies look like they are sucking up the algae on the leaves. They are not physically "eating" the plants. The snails have disappeared from the glass and I can see them cruising up and down the plant stems. There is no physical damage to the plants so algae is the food of choice here.

Tank is crystal in terms of being clear and clean. I mentioned a new glass cleaning tool, the name is Mag-Float. Cost about $20. It is basically two parts, one inside the tank and a magnet on the outside. The two come together and from the outside, you can easily and efficiently clean the inside of the glass from top to bottom. Highly recommend this tool. 

I am going to check the water in the morning for ammonia.

Fish are still fine, amazingly. This is a rugged bunch.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Bryon,

I can't seem to drop my AMMONIA. I poured in that liquid and NADA, NOTHING!!!!

Still high ammonia!!!

Current definitive reading is: 1.0


Panicing now!

I have cut down feeding.
I am feeding them in small drabs so they eat most of the stuff I drop in.
I reduced one feeding to morning and evening.

This is starting to frustrate me!

Can it possibly be the filter?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Big Fish said:


> Bryon,
> 
> I can't seem to drop my AMMONIA. I poured in that liquid and NADA, NOTHING!!!!
> 
> ...


Going back through this thread, I would stick with the advice Twistersmom and I gave. The fish are not showing discomfort, so let it be. Watch for the nitrite spike anywhere in the next several days. The plants will consume a lot of ammonia, the bacteria will establish and multiply...and if stress on the fish does manifest itself, a partial water change will help.

As for the feedings, fish only need once a day to be perfectly healthy. I don't understand how this could have anything to do with the filter.

Byron.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

I am with Byron and cannot see the filter playing a role in ammonia levels unless the filter material is being rinsed in tapwater rather than dechlorinated water or old aquarium water.
I would expect the consistent ammonia readings posted to have claimed the lives of fish by this point. 
I would assume the test for ammonia has been done on tapwater to ensure that the ammonia is not eminating from your source water.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Fish are alive and well. ZERO LOSES. All 7 are still happy, healthy looking and in the tank.

3 Molly
2 Guppy
2 Platy
and now.... lots of little white snails and one bigger brown one that came from nowhere!

DOH! Forgot to just test the tap water. I will do that an let you know. I have been fixated on the tank.

No, I have not touched the filter from the first day I inserted it in August. It was not washed by tap water. The only water flowing into it is from tank. In fact, to be clear, the only water going in right now is water that has been treated.


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## TheRummy (Sep 17, 2009)

*Need help in selecting a good mix of fish for a 10 gallon tropical tank*

I'm thinking about having
1 AngelFish
4 Neon Tetra
4 glow fish
1 dwarf frog 
1 snail
1 guppy

So i dont know if that will overcrowd or not
Would love some suggestions of other breeds that would be suitable


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Just checked the tap water...... AMMONIA: .25


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

OK, I am going to take a stab at advice! 

Neon Tetras grow to a little over 1", so you have 4"
Glow fish? I think they are banned in Canada!
African Dward Frong? 2.5"
1 Guppy 1.5"

Angel fish, depending on which one, can grow to 6" in size and I have read you need up to 30g tank for these!

I think you would be overstocked for a 10g tank, if I guessed right at the types of fish you listed.

The rule of thumb is 1"/g of fresh water

Rookie advice!


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Question on the Bubble Makers. How useful are they, or are they just for appearance?


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## TheRummy (Sep 17, 2009)

Thanks 
I live in america,so i think we are allowed to have mutant dna x-men like fish.
I have a bubbler,they just oxengate (sp?) the water for your fishies. also they look cool


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Just curious but do these fish really glow in the dark?


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Big Fish said:


> Just checked the tap water...... AMMONIA: .25


 This could be contributing to persistent ammonia readings. I might run a bucket of tapwater and treat it with water conditioner such as PRIME. If tapwater after an hour then tested positive for ammonia, I would run another bucket of tapwater and add double the dose of PRIME and test for ammonia after an hour. If ammonia tested zero, Then for each water change thereafter,I would use double the dose of PRIME for all change water.
If after treating the tapwater with double the dose of PRIME the water still tested positive for ammonia, I would want to look for expiration date on water conditioner.For this tank, I might also consider a larger filter than the one rated for the tank or the addition of a small sponge filter.Both would provide a larger surface area for beneficial bacteria to colonize. 
As has been already suggested, I would stop the use of any and all bacterial supplements for they too, irrespective of manufacturer's claims ,,have a shelf life that in my view is difficult to accurately predict. At the point that they cease to be the live bacteria that they claim to be,,, They then become ammonia producing organics for bacteria to eat. This is not wanted in ANY aquarium.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

TheRummy said:


> I'm thinking about having
> 1 AngelFish
> 4 Neon Tetra
> 4 glow fish
> ...


TheRummy, this is a new topic and should be started as a new thread rather than putting it in the middle of an on-going thread. Others may not see it here and you might not get all the good advice you would otherwise if a separate thread. However, as it's here, I have a couple comments.

Angels and neons are not a good mix. The angels will grow and view neons 9and any small fish) as food; and neons (any many other small fish) view the angel's fins as good nipping targets. Bad for either fish.

Also, angels get much too big for a 10g. They do better in a small group and that means 50g or larger. Also, tetras are shoaling fish and should be in a group for good health and behaviours. Minimum 6 but more if space permits. Given your list of fish in a 10g, I wold go with 6-7 neons and add some bottom fish like corydoras, also shoaling fish so 3-4 of the small species; or a group of glofish with some corys.

Byron.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

1077 said:


> For this tank, I might also consider a larger filter than the one rated for the tank or the addition of a small sponge filter.Both would provide a larger surface area for beneficial bacteria to colonize.


What is a small sponge filter? I currently have a small sponge in the current filter with a rock/pebble bag on top. My filter has two parts to it. You squish a sponge into the bottom of the basket and place a pack of tiny pebbles on top of the sponge.

I have the motor cycling on max.


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Try googling info on types of sponge filters. I personally like the Hydro Sponge filter. They are stand alone filters that many use in hospital tanks,quarantine tanks,breeder tanks,or in addition to existing filters. Does provide more surface area for beneficial bacteria to colonize as well as providing an established filter to set up quarantine tank or other tank quickly .


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Latest Tank Readings!!

PH: 7.6

Ammonia: 0 

Nitrite: 1.0 :-?

Nitrate: .5

OK, CHANGE THE WATER???

How do I bring down the NITRITE?


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Water changes will do the trick. Glad you aren't showing ammonia, that's a good thing.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Yes, no ammonia is a nice thing to see.

I did a water change and vacuumed the bottom. I did a surface clean of the gravel. A fair amount of crude came up. 

Maybe that is the cause of the rise of Nitrite?

I have been avoiding vacuuming around the plants as I understand they need this stuff.

Fish are still good. No loses, tank is crystal, nice and clean. I will continue to do the changes until the readings are right.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Big Fish said:


> Yes, no ammonia is a nice thing to see.
> 
> I did a water change and vacuumed the bottom. I did a surface clean of the gravel. A fair amount of crude came up.
> 
> ...


The nitrite is the second part of the nitrification cycle; it is produced by the nitrosomonas bacteria when they consume the ammonia. The second set of bacteria will begin multiplying to consume the nitrite.

When you do the pwc don't vacuum the substrate until the tank is cycled. As you say, some mulm is good, bacteria break it down into nitrogen for the plants. You don't want excess, but it is part of the normal cycle. And bacteria are colonizing the substrate and shouldn't be removed.

Byron.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Darn! I was a little more aggressive vacuuming up the mulm. I didn't move the gravel, just kept the vacuum over top of an area a little longer. Quite a bit came up.

Ok well, rookie mistakes.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Big Fish said:


> Darn! I was a little more aggressive vacuuming up the mulm. I didn't move the gravel, just kept the vacuum over top of an area a little longer. Quite a bit came up.
> 
> Ok well, rookie mistakes.


That won't hurt. Just don't dig down into the gravel, not until the tank is matured anyway. B.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Byron,

Just a *warning!* Start making some free time for me... :lol:

I did the *UNTHINKABLE* today.....:BIGcha-ching:

Big Al was having a Tent Sale.

I picked up an Oceanic 50g, stand, Eheim Professional II Filter and Jager Heater. So, I think I am neck deep in the hobby now. :cheers:

I will post some pics of the tank when I get a chance. There is NOOOOO rush to set this up. I will cycle this first before filling it.

Byron and the rest of you who have supported me with the 10g, I can't thank you enough for sharing your knowledge and for your patience. Thanks to you, I have decided to move to the next level. 

I guess I will have to open a new forum to discuss the setting up of the 50g and the transfer of the 10g.;-)


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Big Fish said:


> Byron,
> 
> Just a *warning!* Start making some free time for me... :lol:
> 
> ...


Congrats. Yes, this hobby is addictive:roll:. My original 33g turned into a 90g within 4 months, and the next year a 115g, followed by a 70g the year following. Lack of more room kept me from expanding beyond I think. And yes, start a new thread; after 11 pages of posts in this thread, we'll all lose track of everything. B.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Thank you. I guess I will move on to the new 50 G forum.


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

*There are fry in the tank!!!!!*

NEW DEVELOPMENT !!!!!!!! 


FRY!!! :cheers::greenyay:

I saw two just now as I was doing my pwc. What thrill to see this. They were scampering around in the plants. I must have flushed them out while I was pruning and removing dead plants stuff.

NOW WHAT!?

They are well along in their development. They are small, but too big to be newly born. 

HOW DO I DEAL WITH THIS?! I would really like for them to survive.

Also, they seem to be orange in color. Could they be Platy? I thought I had two males. Any link to a sight were I can see what Molly fry look like?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Big Fish said:


> NEW DEVELOPMENT !!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> FRY!!! :cheers::greenyay:
> ...


Congrats. Livebearer fry are the colour of the adults (black molly fry are black, red platy fry are red...) although colour patterns as in guppies are not detectable for a while. They will find refuge in plants, especially fine leaved (wisteria, cabomba, etc) especially if floating. When you feed flake food, crush up some of the flakes. If you can get them up to the surface in floating plants, it will be very easy to feed them.

Byron


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Today's TANK readings:

PH: 7.6
Amonnia: 0
Nitrite: 0

NITRATE: .5

Also, here is a link to the type of fry I saw at the bottom of the plant scampering around. I am shocked! I would never guess these were platy!

http://www.brettb.com/images/Platy_Fry1.jpg


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## Big Fish (Aug 22, 2009)

Quick Update....

My two Platy Fry, as hard as I tried to save them, were eaten! DAMN!! Very disappointing!! 

My tank has cycled. Very happy with this. No casualties through out this process. Thanks to all that have helped.

I will be moving the fish to a 50g tank in the coming weeks.

Reading today....
PH: 7.6
Nitrates: 0
Nitrites: 0
Ammonia: 0


Very nice.

Thanks


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