# Loaches dying, not sure why.. Help!



## SilersAngryMeow

Hello everyone,

Two out of three of my yoyo loaches have died, and the third one is acting strangely. I hope that somebody has some insight that may save him!

*History*: I have a 60 gal planted freshwater tank that's been set up for roughly 4 months. I've been slowly adding fish, and about 3 months ago I added the fish (2 neon tetras and the 3 yoyo loaches) from my old 29 gal tank (it has been set up for 2 years) to the new thank. 1.5 months ago I started injecting CO2 into the tank. 

*Tank facts:*
Ammonia - 0
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - 0
Substrate - sand layered over cinder pebbles (the cinder is a substrate fertilizer for the plants)
Water changes - 10-20 % weekly
pH - 7.8
hardness - unsure, but San Diego tap water is VERY HARD

*Current Residents of the 60 gallon tank:*
- 3 danios
- 3 siamese algae eaters
- 2 neon tetras
- Now only 1 yoyo loach 
- 6 harlequin rasboras

*Issue*: Almost as soon as I added the loaches to the 60 gallon tank, I noticed that they like to lay down and wriggle around in the sandy substrate. I know loaches dig, so I didn't think too much of it. About a month or so ago, I noticed that they were more rubbing than digging. They do a sort of sideways rub on the sand, really fast, and then go back to swimming. About a week ago I noticed one of them was getting redness around his mouth. No swelling, nothing else, just red mouth. I thought he had probably cut himself on something (perhaps the cinder? some of it has come to the surface of the substrate, and it looks pretty scratchy) and it was getting infected. He stopped eating, too, which I guessed was from the mouth sore. Of the other two loaches, one seemed to have a small sore behind one gill (picture included, see arrow) and possibly one cloudy eye (see other picture), and the other one looks fine. All of them act a little strange though - darting, hiding out more than usual, not really coming to the surface to eat. I started dosing with Melafix to cure the infection that I thought was occurring.

Two days later the loach with the mouth sore died. As of yesterday (day 5 of Melafix), the remaining two ate a little, but continue their strange behavior and the small sore on one of them seemed unchanged.

This morning I woke up and the one with the sore was dead. No other lesions on his body, and none on the other loach at all. All the other fish in the tank are completely normal.

My loaches have been awesome troopers for 2 years, and I can't understand what's bringing them down now.  Does anyone have any ideas? My only theory was the infection due to an accidental scrape (doesn't explain the behavior though). The only other thought I have is that although my pH hasn't changed much since adding CO2 (from 8.0 to 7.8 ), perhaps the hardness has gone down drastically and that's had an effect?

Any ideas??? Please??


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## aunt kymmie

I also keep yoyos in a planted tank with San Diego "hard as concrete" water, with a ph of 7.8. You've had these yoyos for two years?? The one in the picture looks_ very_ skinny for a 2 yr old. I can't really say what it is, other that I don't believe it has anything to do with the "hardness" of your water. I have no experience with injectable C02 and how that may effect your loaches. 
The rubbing you're describing sounds just like flashing, as a fish might do when he is suffering from ich. I've had two seperate cases of ich in my tank and it was only visible on my clowns but my yoyos were behaving exactly as you describe what yours are doing. I think due to the yoyo coloring the ich was more camouflaged. I doubt it's ich though, as you would see that on your tetras if your tank had an ich infestation. Hopefully someone will come along who has better advice than me. Sorry you've lost your fish. :-(


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## SilersAngryMeow

aunt kymmie said:


> You've had these yoyos for two years?? The one in the picture looks_ very_ skinny for a 2 yr old.


You're right! I forgot that the yoyos weren't the first fish in my old tank. They're probably more like a year and a few months old. Is that still skinny? They have always all eaten well; I feed them once a day. This guy was always the smallest of the three, though.

Ich was my first thought too. I had an outbreak in my 29 gal a long time ago, so I remember the symptoms. I never saw any spots or clamped fins on the loaches in the 60, though, so I had ruled it out. Never occurred to me that you might not be able to see the white dots on their skin.

It also strikes me as odd that none of the other fish are affected, though. I'll have to do a close inspection when I get home. Hrmm. Would you treat the tank for ich, even if you didn't see any ich spots on any fish?

Thanks for the help, Aunt Kymmie!  I appreciate that you always respond when people are in need!


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## aunt kymmie

Well, I'm always hesitant to treat a tank unless I know with absolute certainty what I'm treating for. If it was ich I'd think you'd see your other fish flashing, or at least some white spots on them. Neons are very susceptible, I know my neons were the first fish, along with my clown loaches, to present with the ich parasites. My neons never flashed, but they did have visible signs of ich. 

In my opinion for a year old loach I think he is VERY skinny and small, he looks stunted. How many inches long would you say he is? It's possible that they weren't in the greatest health to begin with.

When you go home today take a good look at everyone in the tank and report back. I'd like for us to be able to say with certainty that it's ich. _IF_ it is, then you'll have to treat the tank.


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## aunt kymmie

Any update??


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## SilersAngryMeow

Thanks for asking 

I can't see anything at all wrong with any of the other fish. Not in behavior, not in appearance. The remaining loach ate his dinner tonight., though he didn't want to come up to the surface. I can't tell if he's flashing or not... their swimming is so erratic, even when they're healthy. I'm keeping an eye on him

I guess as scaleless fish, loaches are more prone to Ich or whatever else is in the water. If I do have Ich, that's probably why I don't see it on any fish. I'm just hesitant to treat the tank without any clear outward sign of some kind of disease. And why did the first casualty have such inflammation around his mouth?? That's not a sign of Ich, as far as I know. On the other hand, if it _is_ Ich, I'm a little afraid I won't figure it out until it's too late.  I don't want to wake up to a dead loach.

One thing is for sure - I guess I'm going to stop dosing with Melafix. I don't think it was really helping anything at all.

Darn fish. I always feel like it's a logic problem I can't quite figure out, dealing with them. :-?


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## eileen

I just bought a yo yo loach a few weeks ago at Kahoots in Poway. I got the last one and asked if they were going to order more. I payed $5.98 most LFS sale them for about $11. I just love this yo yo loach. Looks like a zebra fish. I QT it for a week and recently got another one.

I just copied my friends pages about Yo Yo loaches and it said that the top priority is clean water as these are found in flowing streams and the water it very clean so frequent water changes are a must. My book listed tank parameters as ph 6.6-7.2 Temp 76-82. I live in San Diego also and I have to slowly get my fish used to the hard water so I use a drip line slowly before adding them.

What I can tell in the picture is it looks like maybe one of your other fish in your tank might have attacked it. It does not look like Ich. My friend has yo yo loaches also and told me sometimes if you get a group sometimes they attack each other. She told me to just keep one in my 55 gal. community tank it would be ok. I could not help getting another one. They get along great as far as I can see. If I notice anyting I can always move the other one to a 20 gal. tank. My 55. is overrun by MT snails. I moved my Assassins snails out to another tanks so the yo yos would not eat them. I feed my yo yo loaches earthworm sticks I bought at http://www.kensfish.com sometimes.

I like the Melafix and the Pimafix for treating wounds and such. I find it even safe for shrimps and baby fish and it has no copper so my Assasin snails are ok. It also does not affect the bio/filter and knocking out the cycle.

I looked at you tanks and I noticed that you lost Neon Tetras in your tank and only have 3 out of 10. It could be a water problem as Neon tetras are sensitive to new tanks that have not been set up for very long that also might be the case of the yo yo loaches as they like already established tanks. I think that that pleco might be your problem as the yo yo loach is invading the bottom of the tank as your Pleco sees it and might be attacking it. Keep an eye on that fish all the others in your tank should get along. I would rehome the 3 Neon tetras on craigslist or Kahoots will take fish for credit. Neon tetras like softer water and get some Hardier tetras like Harleqen Rasboras or even Glow-light tetras. I was able to get them used to my harder san Diego water by the drip method.


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## SilersAngryMeow

Hi Eileen!! Thanks for taking the time to write - I appreciate your input  You've given me some stuff to think about.



eileen said:


> I just copied my friends pages about Yo Yo loaches and it said that the top priority is clean water as these are found in flowing streams and the water it very clean so frequent water changes are a must. My book listed tank parameters as ph 6.6-7.2 Temp 76-82. I live in San Diego also and I have to slowly get my fish used to the hard water so I use a drip line slowly before adding them.


I know our water is too hard and alkaline to appeal to the preferences of many fish. It's a pain, isn't it? I do a slow acclimation too, although I reckon that since the pet stores have the same tap water as I do (except Aquatic Warehouse, with their RO water), the fish that we buy in the store are probably already used to our crappy water! I do a 10-20% water change every week, and use a liquid test kit to check my parameters. Ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate are all zero (the tank, as I mentioned, is planted) I feel like I've eliminated water quality as a possible cause for my fish problems.



eileen said:


> What I can tell in the picture is it looks like maybe one of your other fish in your tank might have attacked it. It does not look like Ich. My friend has yo yo loaches also and told me sometimes if you get a group sometimes they attack each other. She told me to just keep one in my 55 gal. community tank it would be ok.


Very interesting!! I was always under the impression that yoyo loaches liked to be in groups of at least 3. The three did always chase after each other a lot. The one fish that remains is the "dominant" fish, at least as far as I can tell. He always had the darkest coloring, and was slightly larger than the other two. Perhaps he had been attacking the other two and they received injuries from him? I can't imagine that the rasboras, SAEs, danios, or tetras attacked the loaches.

I am really intrigued by this notion that you should just have solitary yoyo loaches. Does everybody else keep them solo?? It totally flies in the face of what I'd read on the internet (haha... if it's on the internet it must be true, right??? J/K) 




eileen said:


> I looked at you tanks and I noticed that you lost Neon Tetras in your tank and only have 3 out of 10. It could be a water problem as Neon tetras are sensitive to new tanks that have not been set up for very long that also might be the case of the yo yo loaches as they like already established tanks. I think that that pleco might be your problem as the yo yo loach is invading the bottom of the tank as your Pleco sees it and might be attacking it. Keep an eye on that fish all the others in your tank should get along. I would rehome the 3 Neon tetras on craigslist or Kahoots will take fish for credit. Neon tetras like softer water and get some Hardier tetras like Harleqen Rasboras or even Glow-light tetras. I was able to get them used to my harder san Diego water by the drip method.


The 7 neon tetras were lost a long time ago (maybe 7 months) in some problems with my old 29 gallon tank. I plan to beef up their school in the 60 gallon, but I didn't want to buy any fish until I resolve the loach issue, just in case there was some infection in the tank. The pleco is gone. He was never transferred to the 60 gallon tank. You're reminding me that I really should update my aquarium list on here - haha.


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## eileen

Wow, your tank mantainance is like mine 20-25% water change a week + I use the API test kit once a week to check everything else. The Loach book I borrowed said the same thing get no more then 3 as they like schools. They say the same for Corys also but I have a single cory in my tank and they ae fine. Sometimes fish have that mean streak in them and you have to get rid of them. I had 1 angelfish that I had as a tiny nickel size and grew to be about 4 1/2" big before it died. This one got along with all my fish as it grew up with all the small tetras. I then got 2 small quarter size angels from a friend and they got along fine also but I lost 1 on vacation. I bought another small one and put it in with the big one and it attacked it so I had to remove it to a 20gal. I since rehomed both angels and bought 2 tiny angels at Petco that were the size of a nickel. They were fiine in the tank at the petstore and for a few days in a QT tank. One started to attack the other one. I took them back to the LFS as my return was still good and just got another angel. This one is in a QT tank now. I hope it gets along with my fish in my 55 gal.My friend breeds angels and she said that it is genetics that make up the personalities. She has had ones that are really easy going and other that are a big pain to keep. That could be true for your yo yo loach. Maybe you should just keep 1 like I'm just keeping 1 Angelfish for fry control of my Black Moscow guppies. I just got the yo yo loach to control the snail problem as the Assassin snails did not do such a good job on keeping the MTS snail low in numbers.


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## aunt kymmie

I have to jump in here and disagree. I have seven yoyos and they are as happy as they could be. Yoyos_ NEED_ to be in a group in order to truly thrive, the more the merrier. The "fighting" you see is nothing more than the way they socialize. During this "wrassling" no one ever actually gets hurt, it just looks rough, but for loaches this is par for the course. A solo yoyo is a lonely yoyo. Having just two means one will be dominant and constantly stressing the less dominant one, with three you run the risk of two constantly ganging up on the less dominant one. In a group they will establish a social hierachy and they sort it out amongst themselves quite nicely. 

Loaches are a little passion of mine and nearly all loaches require to be in a grouping in order to do their best. Dojo loaches are the exception, (there are a few other species) they are best kept as a solo species. I keep three different species of loaches and five is the smallest number of a grouping of any single species that I keep. Eileen, you'd be fine adding more yoyos! You should add more yoyos!

And I agree! What's up with Aquatic Warehouse using RO water for their freshwater specimens?? You buy from them and you go through a majorly long drip acclimation. You buy from Pet Kingdom and the transition is seamless!


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## SilersAngryMeow

It's interesting that there's such variation in personalities (fishsonalities?). It could be the case with the loaches as well. The more that I think about what you said, the more I think you're right. The three loaches got along well in the 29 gallon, but I had a lot of malaysian driftwood in there - lots of little holes to hide in, and the loaches spent most of their time hidden away. When I moved them to the 60 gallon, which has a lot more open space (only coconut shells to hide in), the 2 underdogs probably had to tolerate a lot more bullying from the big one. Perhaps this stressed them out, and led to the infection or whatever it was that did them in.

Perhaps they only do well in schools if they have a lot of hiding spots. Seems weird - why would they like schools, but pick on each other? In any case, I only have the one loach now, I guess it should stay that way, at least until I have a tank with more places to hide.

Thanks!


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## aunt kymmie

Just curious- who did you talk to at Pet Kingdom? Was it Ron or someone else?


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## SilersAngryMeow

aunt kymmie said:


> I have to jump in here and disagree. I have seven yoyos and they are as happy as they could be. Yoyos_ NEED_ to be in a group in order to truly thrive, the more the merrier. The "fighting" you see is nothing more than the way they socialize. During this "wrassling" no one ever actually gets hurt, it just looks rough, but for loaches this is par for the course. A solo yoyo is a lonely yoyo. Having just two means one will be dominant and constantly stressing the less dominant one, with three you run the risk of two constantly ganging up on the less dominant one. In a group they will establish a social hierachy and they sort it out amongst themselves quite nicely.
> 
> Loaches are a little passion of mine and nearly all loaches require to be in a grouping in order to do their best. Dojo loaches are the exception, (there are a few other species) they are best kept as a solo species. I keep three different species of loaches and five is the smallest number of a grouping of any single species that I keep. Eileen, you'd be fine adding more yoyos! You should add more yoyos!
> 
> And I agree! What's up with Aquatic Warehouse using RO water for their freshwater specimens?? You buy from them and you go through a majorly long drip acclimation. You buy from Pet Kingdom and the transition is seamless!


Hi Kymmie!! Let's keep up our rooster conversation here :lol:

I *just* posted a response to Eileen, I'm glad to get your opinion on this too. I looked at pictures of your loach tank (beautiful, btw!) but I can't tell if you have a lot of hiding spots. My 60 gallon tank is still pretty sparse (the plants haven't grown much, and I switched from Malaysian driftwood to manzanita, so the loaches lost the swiss-cheese wooden log that they loved hiding in), save for 3 coconut shells. I'm wondering now if my group of loaches suffered for a lack of ways to hide from each other. All the chasing lead to stress? And that made them succumb to infection? I'm just trying to make sense of why they would be sick and dying all of a sudden.

I bought the group of three for the very reasons you mentioned - I know 2 fish will result in the dominant one picking on the lesser one. The remaining loach looks healthy, but he does a lot of swimming in circles the past two days, up and down the height of the tank. I can't tell if he's sick (he looks fine) or maybe he's lonely without others.

Wondering if I should buy more yoyos... I'm kind of torn. They were my favorite fish, but now I'm not sure if they'd be happy in my tank.


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## SilersAngryMeow

aunt kymmie said:


> Just curious- who did you talk to at Pet Kingdom? Was it Ron or someone else?


I don't know their names! I feel like such a heel, I chat with these people all the time but never bother to ask their names. However... I think they're in the same boat. Boyfriend and I are always greeted with "hey, how are the rasboras?" or "hey guys, how's the planted tank?" 

In any case, the guy I spoke to was probably mid-20s, tall with short dark hair. Sometimes I see him in salt water. Does that help?? Haha.

I agree with you about the RO water. Yes, ideally we would all have RO systems in our homes and use that in our aquariums. Buuuuuut... realistically, it's impossible or at least very inconvenient for most people. I live in an apartment, I can't install an RO system. I also don't want to go buy 10 gallons of RO water every week.


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## aunt kymmie

SilersAngryMeow said:


> I don't know their names! I feel like such a heel, I chat with these people all the time but never bother to ask their names. However... I think they're in the same boat. Boyfriend and I are always greeted with "hey, how are the rasboras?" or "hey guys, how's the planted tank?"
> 
> In any case, the guy I spoke to was probably mid-20s, tall with short dark hair. Sometimes I see him in salt water. Does that help?? Haha.
> 
> I agree with you about the RO water. Yes, ideally we would all have RO systems in our homes and use that in our aquariums. Buuuuuut... realistically, it's impossible or at least very inconvenient for most people. I live in an apartment, I can't install an RO system. I also don't want to go buy 10 gallons of RO water every week.


I hear you. I don't want to have to install RO in my house either, when what I have is clearly working for me already. Aquatic Warehouse does have really nice plant tanks but don't even get me started on some other things I have seen there when I have visited. 

Ron is 50'ish but wears his hair a little "spikey" so he looks like a "cool" 50. If you can, he'd always be the guy I would talk to. Not that everyone in the store isn't good, they are, but Ron is amazing. He's always off on Sun/Mon. and Tuesday mornings he's got his hands full with water changing. I like to visit him on Wednesday. 
Ron would advise you to add more yoyos, no doubt. The behavior you're describing of your remaining yoyo sounds like he is stressed. Being lonely for a social loach can be very stressful.

I have huge chunks of Malaysian driftwood in my tank that you can no longer see because the plants have covered it all up. You're right, loaches need plenty of places to hide, not so much from each other but just because it's their natural behavior. Chasing behavior in a healthy group of yoyos can't possibly be stressful. If it was mine would have died years ago, lol. They chase each other all day long, non-stop, in and out of the plants, up and over the driftwood, it's just what they do. I'd be worried if they _weren't_ chasing each other. 
They will get in these radical wrestling mactches and the two that are "fighting" will totally gray out, losing color. I remember when I first saw that and I thought, "Oh no, they are losing color, they are dying!!". Totally normal. Two will tussle, they will break it up, then another two will start a tussle, and on and on it goes. I LOVE my yoyos.  

My tank is basic San Diego tap water treated with Prime. I know first-hand that our water parameters are fine for yoyos. Maybe we should make a date to meet each other at Pet Kingdom sometime on a Saturday when Ron is there? That might be fun!?


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## SilersAngryMeow

Sigh... well, so now I'm back to square one. Why did my fish die?

Oh, I know exactly who Ron is, now that you described him! He helped me out when I had a sick powder blue ram. He was very helpful. Well, the ram died, but I'm not holding that against him 

A Saturday at Pet Kingdom sounds great (actually, sounds like my normal Saturday). Whatcha doing tomorrow? Maybe I'll go look for some loaches. Haha!


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## aunt kymmie

SilersAngryMeow said:


> Sigh... well, so now I'm back to square one. Why did my fish die?
> 
> Oh, I know exactly who Ron is, now that you described him! He helped me out when I had a sick powder blue ram. He was very helpful. Well, the ram died, but I'm not holding that against him
> 
> A Saturday at Pet Kingdom sounds great (actually, sounds like my normal Saturday). Whatcha doing tomorrow? Maybe I'll go look for some loaches. Haha!


I'm busy today. I'm going surfing and after that it's home to do chores. What about next Saturday??


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## SilersAngryMeow

aunt kymmie said:


> I'm busy today. I'm going surfing and after that it's home to do chores. What about next Saturday??


Sounds good to me. Send me a message or something. 

Hope it's epic today


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