# Ack - Ich! With farlowella and kuhlis... Help please!



## magpie (Nov 7, 2011)

Hey there,

I see a couple of white spots on one ricefish - may be the start of Ich. 

I believe I've read that farlowella and kuhlis are sensitive to meds... 
And I believe that farlowella are sensitive to high temps...

So what do I do? 

Help! I want to get on this fast before it spreads. 

Thank you!


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## magpie (Nov 7, 2011)

I also see a couple spots on two hatchetfish.

More tank info:
pH: 6.6-6.8
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 10 ppm

My concerns are that the farlowella are new (got them Sunday) and wild-caught - I've heard that they're sensitive to meds, but also to large water changes and high temps. Not sure how much of all that is a serious factor, but I don't want to lose the farlowella from environmental stress.... They seem happy right now, no signs of ich, and are eating, etc.


Photos:





















On the tail of the hatchetfish


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## TheresaMcMurrough (Jan 27, 2012)

Could u quarantine the "sick" fish and treat them separate of the fish that are sensitive to "meds"?


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## magpie (Nov 7, 2011)

I have an old 30 gallon tank, no heater or anything... I did think about it, but I worry that if I only treat certain fish, it might be in the others that aren't getting treated (just not showing it yet) or that it's in the tank itself... it is a parasite. 

It's difficult to figure out exactly where it came from, because I have a new-ish tank so added the 3 farlowella this past weekend, and a week or two before that added 12 pseudomugil (from a store that is nice, but isn't as pristine as my normal store with the farlowella).


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## magpie (Nov 7, 2011)

Does anyone here have experience with Coppersafe and Kuhlis / Farlowella?

And how high do you think my Farlowella can take for temperature if I do it gradually? I'm so worried about them, can you tell?  They just seem to be doing so well fairly quickly and I'll be really upset if this stupid ich ends up killing any of them via treatment. 

I think the rainbows brought it in - my husband says "I thought I saw it on one of the rainbows." They're so tiny it's hard to see if they have any spots. (Plus, they're spotted rainbows.  )


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

That is ich, mild but present. I see this often on new fish. Removing the spotted fish is pointless as the ich is in the tank and will attack other fish, so treatment must occur in the tank with the fish when you first see it.

Sometimes you can let this go and the fish will fight it off. But if it were me and I saw what is in your photos, I would treat the tank. Best treatment for sensitive fish is heat and CopperSafe. I have never had issues with this treatment, and I have some very sensitive wild-caught fish.

Raising the temp to at least 90F will work, though I have never tried this since I have fish that cannot tolerate this. I use CopperSafe with the heat raised to 85F.

Do a water change [this is because the tank will not have another for 1-2 weeks] and raise the temperature to 85F partly with the water change and partly by raising the setting on the heater. Add the recommended dose of CopperSafe immediately after the water change; I believe it is one teaspoon per 4 gallons. Remember that substrate, wood, rock will displace some water, so in a 29g tank for instance there will likely be around 23 actual gallons of water, roughly.

Maintain the 85F temp for one full week, then turn the heater back to its normal setting and just let the tank naturally cool down. Do another water change 3-4 days after that.

Byron.


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## magpie (Nov 7, 2011)

Thank you! I'll get Coppersafe today. Better than AquariSol?

Also, should I use my spray bar more at the surface for agitation to increase aeration with the temp increase? I've read about that, have you done it, or do you think my Eheim 2217 is sufficient? (65 gallon tank).

Should I do a normal 25% water change, or more?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

> Thank you! I'll get Coppersafe today. Better than AquariSol?


Yes for sensitive fish. I used to use Aquari-Sol, but I remember my Farlowella sitting on floating plants with their rostrum above the surface, a sure sign they are not happy with the water. [I did an immediate major water change of course, as one always should if this occurs.]



> Also, should I use my spray bar more at the surface for agitation to increase aeration with the temp increase? I've read about that, have you done it, or do you think my Eheim 2217 is sufficient? (65 gallon tank).


Won't hurt to do this.



> Should I do a normal 25% water change, or more?


For me, the "normal" once a week water change is half the tank, so that is what I do. If your parameters between tank and tap water are close, this will be fine. The major point is that you will not be doing another change for at least a week as it would remove the CS and then you need to re-dose, and while this can be done it is best to leave it. Yoou want the water to be at its best when you start. And as we all know, fish love water changes.


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## magpie (Nov 7, 2011)

OK, yes my tap pretty much matches my tank - I'll do a 50% change, then. 

Thanks again so much for your help, I always despair when I see anything wrong, even something common like ich, and the tank has been so healthy thus far. 

There are so many opinions online about ich treatment, but I know that you've had similar species so I'm banking on your advice. ;-)


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

magpie said:


> OK, yes my tap pretty much matches my tank - I'll do a 50% change, then.
> 
> Thanks again so much for your help, I always despair when I see anything wrong, even something common like ich, and the tank has been so healthy thus far.
> 
> There are so many opinions online about ich treatment, but I know that you've had similar species so I'm banking on your advice. ;-)


CopperSafe is mild by comparison to most other medications. Others, even Aquari-Sol if memory serves me, suggest half dose for sensitive fish. CS does not need this. But with a relativeloy-mild infestation as you have, and I usually see similarly, it works very well. It is very common to see ich on new fish, it is caused by the stress.


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## magpie (Nov 7, 2011)

Argh - my heater does not want to make my tank 85 degrees. It's frustrating. I'm contemplating getting a new heater or at least an additional heater for this kind of thing. 

I wonder if I need more watts - its a 65-gallon 3-ft tank, and it's an Eheim Jager 150 W. It was tricky to calibrate initially - actually, the dial won't turn far enough for me to get it to calibrate correctly, so I set it to what works according to the thermometer - less than ideal. Now it really doesn't want to heat the tank. It did get up to 84, but no higher that I saw, and right now it's back down at about 82, and the light has been pretty much consistently on, which I'm sure means it just can't handle what I'm asking it to do. Also, the one time I left my heater unplugged after a water change, it took forever to get the tank back up to 78-9, from about 68-70. 

Time for a new heater? How many watts?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

magpie said:


> Argh - my heater does not want to make my tank 85 degrees. It's frustrating. I'm contemplating getting a new heater or at least an additional heater for this kind of thing.
> 
> I wonder if I need more watts - its a 65-gallon 3-ft tank, and it's an Eheim Jager 150 W. It was tricky to calibrate initially - actually, the dial won't turn far enough for me to get it to calibrate correctly, so I set it to what works according to the thermometer - less than ideal. Now it really doesn't want to heat the tank. It did get up to 84, but no higher that I saw, and right now it's back down at about 82, and the light has been pretty much consistently on, which I'm sure means it just can't handle what I'm asking it to do. Also, the one time I left my heater unplugged after a water change, it took forever to get the tank back up to 78-9, from about 68-70.
> 
> Time for a new heater? How many watts?


I have that same heater (Jager 150w) in my 33g which is 3 feet length. I found the temp numbers on the dial were not accurate with respect to the actual temperature; I have the heater dial set between 73 and 75 and it heats the tank to 78F consistantly. I am certain this is the actual temp because all my tanks (except one) are set at 77-79F and my floating thermometers and one digital register the same. This is common for many heaters, even the good ones. And I think Eheim Jager is one of the best.

I did have an ich outbreak in this tank a while ago, and I increased the temp on this heater to raise the water to 85F. I can't remember what setting I used, but it was probably around 80 on the dial.


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## magpie (Nov 7, 2011)

I cranked it up and it isn't getting to 84. 82 still this morning. Must be too much water? It's great to know that it won't get stuck and fry my fish, but its evidently not enough to increase the temp on its own effectively. I think I'll get a second heater to support it for this week.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

magpie said:


> I cranked it up and it isn't getting to 84. 82 still this morning. Must be too much water? It's great to know that it won't get stuck and fry my fish, but its evidently not enough to increase the temp on its own effectively. I think I'll get a second heater to support it for this week.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


One thing to bear in mind, and that is the ambient room temperature. Most (perhaps all) aquarium heaters are calibrated to be accurate (reliable) provided the ambient temperature of the room remains within 10-15 degrees. In other words, if the room temp is 60F, the heater will have a difficult time keeping the tank at 80F, and may not be able to at all. I keep my room temp at 70F and the heaters thus work less hard.


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## magpie (Nov 7, 2011)

Yes... We keep our house at 68. Must be too much for it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## magpie (Nov 7, 2011)

Well, I finally dropped the temperature 5 days ago, and today did a 25% water change. 

All of the fish still aren't acting fully normal.

- The Hatchetfish seem to be doing much better today after the water change. They had been acting odd, not hanging out together, in odd spots, much lower in the tank, some chasing of each other. Last night they were "playing" in the filter flow, which they rarely do. 
- Farlowella and Rainbows - don't seem to be phased one bit, and haven't really been at all during this entire Ich drama.
- Ricefish - still much less in your face and less active than normal. All day today I have only been counting 3 of them, when there were 6. This is unusual - they don't tend to hide. There are a lot of hiding spots, though. They were the ones who were visibly hit with the ich. 
- Pencifish - are mostly staying down in the stems of the swords. They do this when they're not super happy (ie when I forgot to plug my heater back in and the temp dropped 10 degrees). There are all 5 though, their color is decent, and they all came out to eat last night. 
- Kuhlis - less active, more hiding, even during feeding time. I can identify most of them individually through markings - I have seen at least 5 of the 8 last night and today. 

I don't like this. :-(

I tested the water today after the water change, and had ammonia of .25! Nitrites 0, Nitrates 5.
I've not had ANY ammonia since day one of this tank. 

So what's going on? Is it from the medication and/or the subsequent temp increase during the treatment?
Could there be 3 dead Ricefish somewhere rotting? 

I looked all over the tank with a headlamp, and didn't see anything dead, but again - it's really hard to see all areas of the tank with the rocks and the plants. I still have a large rock holding down some driftwood. Should I lift it up and see if there are any dead fish? 

How much of an issue would unfound dead fish be in regards to ammonia? Should I disrupt the entire tank to find them? 

Should I clean my filter pads/substrate?

ARGH!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

As long as your pH remains below 7, I would not mess over ammonia (it will be ammonium if it is there). I don't even test for ammonia, haven't for years, with all my plants it is a non-issue.

Any chance there is ammonia in the tap water, since this was post-water change? This does happen. Kymmie had a large nitrite increase following a water change, turned out to be the tap water that had previously been zero nitrite.

Byron.


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## magpie (Nov 7, 2011)

I've tested the tap but after letting it sit... 0. 

The pH is below 7. So I shouldn't worry then? 

Just waiting for everyone to be acting normal.


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## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

For future browsers of this thread, YES! Extra aeration is needed. The higher the temp of the water, the less oxygen it can hold. This is especially important with certain species, and in heavily stocked or overstocked tanks, but it helps in any situation. Extra aeration can come in the form of airstones (best choice), or dropping the water level down a bit so that the outflow of the filter causes more splashing.

So anyway, I have questions about this thread if I may. Learning about Ich is my current obsession. I've covered salt/heat treatments and formalin/malachite green treatments, and various supplementary methods. I still need to learn about herbal remedies. And I don't know about the copper medications that you're using. So I have questions, if you don't mind. Please and thank you!

In using a copper drug on a tank that has a normally low pH, does it mess with the pH?
If you're not vacuuming the substrate to help get rid of cilates, and water changing to help get rid of tomites, does it make the process longer?
Isn't the magic temperature 86 degrees F?
With copper drugs, do you still continue the treatment for 3 days after seeing the last cyst?

Also, magpie, what do you think led to the stress and then this problem? 

Thanks for helping me learn!


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## magpie (Nov 7, 2011)

My responses in red:




MinaMinaMina said:


> For future browsers of this thread, YES! Extra aeration is needed. The higher the temp of the water, the less oxygen it can hold. This is especially important with certain species, and in heavily stocked or overstocked tanks, but it helps in any situation. Extra aeration can come in the form of airstones (best choice), or dropping the water level down a bit so that the outflow of the filter causes more splashing.
> 
> Good, I'm so happy I did that. I just lowered the water level a touch so the spray bar was aerating the surface, and there were tiny air bubbles created.
> 
> ...


Please let me know anything you've learned recently too!

I'm wondering: when I should do another water change, and if I should be doing anything to my filter (ie new sponges, cleaning the substrate/media)


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

> For future browsers of this thread, YES! Extra aeration is needed. The higher the temp of the water, the less oxygen it can hold. This is especially important with certain species, and in heavily stocked or overstocked tanks, but it helps in any situation. Extra aeration can come in the form of airstones (best choice), or dropping the water level down a bit so that the outflow of the filter causes more splashing.


This is a good point. I've not done this myself, and I can't recall noticing any issues, but that may have just been the specific fish species. Good advice, whichever.



> In using a copper drug on a tank that has a normally low pH, does it mess with the pH?


No. The pH is not affected by these treatments.



> If you're not vacuuming the substrate to help get rid of cilates, and water changing to help get rid of tomites, does it make the process longer?


I've never vacuumed the substrate for this purpose, and you are the first person I've read who mentioned this aspect. While vacuuming the substrate would/could presumably remove some of the cilates, and changing water might remove some of the free-swimming tomites--both practices will also diminish the strength of medication in the aquarium and this could allow some of the ich to slip through and attach to a host fish. Adding more medication to deal with the water removed is possible, and with a medication like CopperSafe might be OK because it is not as potent as other copper-based meds (which is why it is "safer" on sensitive fish). But with a stronger med, I would think this very risky. Elevated levels of copper can kill plants, fish and bacteria. I prefer to have a better idea of how much copper I'm adding. I have for instance noticed plants being affected by some other copper medications when used just as recommended; this has never occurred with Coppersafe, provided I also discontinue fertilization--the two together does affect plants, which I assume is the elevated copper level. So my thinking here is that one has to be careful, and the best action would seem to be not changing water to maintain an effective but not detrimental level of copper. Treatment for a week or two weeks at most should deal with the ich, and shortening this by even a couple days is not worth the possible risk in my view.



> Isn't the magic temperature 86 degrees F?


Raising the temperature simply quickens the life cycle of the ich. The temperature can be left at its normal setting, and should be if there are fish that have difficulties with higher temperatures. If the fish can tolerate it, raising the temperature to 90F alone will kill off the ich in a week or two, with no medications. But many fish cannot manage with this. I have found raising the temp to 85F and using CopperSafe for a week has worked, and I have observed the least amount of additional stress on the fish. I have some very delicate wild-caught fish, and this has so far appeared to be the safer approach.



> With copper drugs, do you still continue the treatment for 3 days after seeing the last cyst?


I just do the treatment for a full week, plus a couple days. I never pay attention to spots, although I have not so far ever seen any after the 7th day. I also observe to see if any fish are flashing, which is the first sign of ich because ich always first attacks the gills before any spots will be visible on the fish.

Byron.


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## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

Ah, this is all very good to know! Thanks for the education on CopperSafe!


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## magpie (Nov 7, 2011)

Should I do another water change or wait a full week? I did one 25% change. 

Also, do I need to worry about my Eheim sponges or anything like that?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

magpie said:


> Should I do another water change or wait a full week? I did one 25% change.
> 
> Also, do I need to worry about my Eheim sponges or anything like that?


If you've treated with CopperSafe, just do normal once weekly water changes. Each water change will reduce the level of CS in the water.

No. I never touch the filters after treatment. The sponge filters are rinsed every water change, and the canister media is not touched.


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## magpie (Nov 7, 2011)

You rinse the sponge weekly? Wow...

I retested my water. There is .25 ammonia. I think I'll have to do another water change and pull up that rock and see if there are any remnants of the 3 missing ricefish rotting. :-(

I had to euthanize the one that wasn't doing that great last night. So now I'm down to two (from 6). :-( The remaining two seem totally fine. Since they're a new species to the hobby, I don't know what to think. They developed it very quickly, were pretty much the only species to get hit like that and they either died from it or from the treatment. It's so odd because they seemed so healthy, adaptable, and bombproof. And my tank overall seemed to be doing so well. *sigh*

So sad to have any losses. Even harder to see a fish struggling.

I guess I could be told that I should have done a QT tank...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

magpie said:


> You rinse the sponge weekly? Wow...
> 
> I retested my water. There is .25 ammonia. I think I'll have to do another water change and pull up that rock and see if there are any remnants of the 3 missing ricefish rotting. :-(
> 
> ...


By sponge I mean the tanks that have just a sponge filter. They are rinsed every week. They pick up a lot.

Going from memory again, but if the pH is below 7, forget the ammonia. You have plants.


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## magpie (Nov 7, 2011)

OK, I thought for a minute there you were breaking down your canister filters every week to rinse the pads! 

And yes - my pH is usually 6.8ish. 
The only reason I am itching for a water change is that though fish are acting mostly normally, the gobies are hanging out at notably higher levels in the tank than normal. The kuhlis are still less active during the day, and so are the Pencilfish, though they are much better and come out readily at feeding time. Everyone still has good color, though.

I'm just anxious for everything to be back to normal. Hopefully I'm not presenting like too much of a worry wart. ;-)


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

magpie said:


> OK, I thought for a minute there you were breaking down your canister filters every week to rinse the pads!
> 
> And yes - my pH is usually 6.8ish.
> The only reason I am itching for a water change is that though fish are acting mostly normally, the gobies are hanging out at notably higher levels in the tank than normal. The kuhlis are still less active during the day, and so are the Pencilfish, though they are much better and come out readily at feeding time. Everyone still has good color, though.
> ...


If something doesn't look right, fish behaviour wise, I agree, a partial water change is often a good remedy.


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## magpie (Nov 7, 2011)

Water change last night, and today I came home from work to see all the Pencilfish out and about, and the male goby on the bottom of the tank. 

Do you find that your Pencilfish are often "barometers" in your tank? I think I'm learning which fish to pay most close attention to for certain things to catch them early.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

magpie said:


> Water change last night, and today I came home from work to see all the Pencilfish out and about, and the male goby on the bottom of the tank.
> 
> Do you find that your Pencilfish are often "barometers" in your tank? I think I'm learning which fish to pay most close attention to for certain things to catch them early.


Depends. Pencilfish that are wild caught (like this species is) will be more sensitive to any deterioration in water quality, parameter changes, etc. than some other species.


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## TheresaMcMurrough (Jan 27, 2012)

FLashing?


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

TheresaMcMurrough said:


> FLashing?


Flashing is the term aquarists use to describe the action of a fish that is scraping its gill area on plant leaves, wood, rock or the substrate. The fish flashes very fast against the object in an attempt to dislodge something from the gills, and usually (but not always) this will be a parasite like ich or velvet.

Sometimes it can simply be a piece of food caught in the gills; when fish eat, food passes in their mouth with water and sometimes a bit can be pushed out through the gills. I've seen this mostly with catfish like corys, when feeding frozen or live worms.

More often though it is parasitic, and if seen you should carefully observe the fish. An isolated flash is not a problem, but if it occurs frequently, or by more than one fish, it may be something.


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

This has been a very interesting thread to read through, I learned a lot Thanks to all who posted. 

Mina I am so sorry to hear that you lost some of your beautiful fish. I know that is hard, especially when you have to euthanize. Not an easy decision but far more humane then allowing them to die slowly.


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## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

Oh, thanks for the kind words Inga, but that Magpie. I haven't lost any fish, that was her sad misfortune. :-(


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## Inga (Jun 8, 2010)

MinaMinaMina said:


> Oh, thanks for the kind words Inga, but that Magpie. I haven't lost any fish, that was her sad misfortune. :-(



Oops, sorry. I meant Magpie. I was thinking of two different conversations when I was writing that. Guess this is what happens in old age. ha ha 

Magpie I am very sorry about YOUR fish. It is very sad. :-(


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## magpie (Nov 7, 2011)

Thank you, I appreciate it- hard to lose even the smallest fish. Thankfully my husband was around and he euth'd the fish for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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