# too much driftwood?



## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Random question about driftwood. Is it possible to have too much? I guess it's more like a series of questions. I should be nearing the end of my fishless cycle as nitrates are present. My cycle keeps stalling however and I was told it's because of my ph which keeps dipping to at least 6.0 (as low as my test goes). I was told the bacteria stop working around there but if that's the case how can I complete my cycle? Also how are acid loving fish kept below there? I really wasn't trying to acheive an ultra low ph. I know a stable one is better. I just bought a lot of driftwood and put it all in, not thinking it would do this much.


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## DKRST (Jan 11, 2011)

You can't have too much driftwood, in my opinion, but poorly "seasoned" or new driftwood can release a lot of tannins and that will shift the pH of your water. Driftwood can leach tannins for many, many, months or even longer. Oak is particularly bad about that, in my experience. 

Bacterial activity can be impacted by pH, but I know of at least one forum member who has tanks that dip into the <6 pH range. He has no problems and my overly simplistic assumption is that the bacterial makeup of the tank shifts slightly to a version/mix that tolerates the higher acidity a little better.

To determine more about your pH issues, we'll need more info. How long have you been cycling? Have you tested the water from your tap? What are those parameters? What, exactly, are your water parameters in the tank, other than the pH being very low? 

How often are you changing the water? I have one tank that the pH creeps "up" in due to it's substrate characteristics, but I manage the pH shift with 2-3 large, 50%+ water changes per week instead of one. Fortunately, it's only a 10 gallon tank!

*How are you testing the water? API master kit? Test strips?*


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## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

DKRST said:


> You can't have too much driftwood, in my opinion, but poorly "seasoned" or new driftwood can release a lot of tannins and that will shift the pH of your water. Driftwood can leach tannins for many, many, months or even longer. Oak is particularly bad about that, in my experience.
> 
> Bacterial activity can be impacted by pH, but I know of at least one forum member who has tanks that dip into the <6 pH range. He has no problems and my overly simplistic assumption is that the bacterial makeup of the tank shifts slightly to a version/mix that tolerates the higher acidity a little better.
> 
> ...


Let me see if I can answer all your questions. My driftwood is all Malaysian and yes it is new. I actually don't have many tannins visible, which is the opposite of what I want but I have a cure for that. I had read that dw doesn't affect ph more than a little bit. I had no basis for what the ph would be with it as the tank was cycling the whole time. I couldn't figure out if it was the dw or the cycle. My substrate btw is pool filter sand which should be inert.

I have been cycling since 8-24 so not overly long, although my cycle has been well strange. I didn't take a true reading of the tapwater ph, but straight from the tap it is 8.4 with .5 ammonia. I don't have a KH or GH test by the way. Currently my aquarium is 6.0 or less PH, .5 ammonia, 5.0 NO2, and 40 NO3.

I change water perhaps irregularly due to it just cycling. I've had an unknown ammonia source that caused ammonia to skyrocket. This has finally been conquered or just run it's course. I would do as much as 90% water changes whenever the ammonia reached 8.0 or ph reached where it is now, which was fairly often.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

It is true that at very low pH the nitrifying bacteria slow down and will even cease. However, the irony is that little harm will occur, due to the fact that in acidic water the ammonia changes into ammonium which is basically harmless. And without bacteria, nitrite will not occur in levels as it would in basic water. Live plants also help all this, by assimilating most of the ammonia/ammonium which they do faster than the bacteria anyway. You can read more detail in my article on bacteria:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-articles/bacteria-freshwater-aquarium-74891/

Depending upon the fish species, the pH should be somewhat controlled. Some species occur in very acidic waters (pH 4-5), but other soft water fish will have problems this low.

I have a lot of Malaysian driftwood in my tanks. While wood will acidify water it is usually very minimal. The most I have read about is .2 or .3 degrees, example from a pH of 6.5 down to 6.3 due to the wood. This of course can be impacted by the hardness, and you can read about that relationship here:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-articles/water-hardness-ph-freshwater-aquarium-73276/

As mentioned, too low a pH can cause trouble for some fish. The low GH and KH associated with a low pH as explained in that last linked article can be detrimental to some plants. We have a current thread [I think its in the Aquarium Plants section] on the problem of excess iron in swords caused by too low a GH.

You should contact your water supplier and ascertain the GH (general hardness) and KH [Alkalinity]. A pH as high as 8.4 is usually associated with hard water, though not always; and lowering to 6.4 without fish in the tank is not normal. Again, this is explained more in those articles. My point here is that it needs investigating before fish enter the tank.

Byron.


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## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Byron said:


> It is true that at very low pH the nitrifying bacteria slow down and will even cease. However, the irony is that little harm will occur, due to the fact that in acidic water the ammonia changes into ammonium which is basically harmless. And without bacteria, nitrite will not occur in levels as it would in basic water. Live plants also help all this, by assimilating most of the ammonia/ammonium which they do faster than the bacteria anyway. You can read more detail in my article on bacteria:
> http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-articles/bacteria-freshwater-aquarium-74891/
> 
> Depending upon the fish species, the pH should be somewhat controlled. Some species occur in very acidic waters (pH 4-5), but other soft water fish will have problems this low.
> ...


I had just assumed hard water since there is the ph and my entire area is in a valley with a lot of limestone undergound..also the resulting sinkholes as well. I guess I might have to get some more tests if this is going to be a problem.

My cycle has been etremely out of whack. This is my first fishless cycle and it has not gone at all according to plan. I've shown high levels of nitrates before and have never once added a source of ammonia myself beyond the smallest of pinches of fish food to feed the bacteria. No where near what would be needed to cycle with. I've also never even opened my bottle of ammonia. For the last week and for the first time since i started I have had ammonia steady (when the ph was low) and decreasing (when the ph was higher). 

My GH being low due to the ph explains why my original plants died after showing good growth. Some had told me it was excessive iron but I'm new too plants and didn't understand how that could be. Thank you for the link about that.

What is my best bet? Try finish the cycle and see if the tank reaches a level more akin to my tapwater? Get some tests first for GH and KH (do I need both?) and then if necessary run crushed coral in the filter? I kept fish as a kid and kept didn't aquatic herpes since then and have never run into the kinds of problems I'm having now.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

First, find out about your source water. Hardness is critical to know, since it impacts on pH long term. But you also want to know what if any other minerals might be present. Some, such as copper, can be high, and while safe for humans can be lethal to fish and plants. Limestone would suggest harder water, but at the same time more buffering to maintain the pH.


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## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

I just e-mailed them so I only need to wait for a response. This is still strange as I know plenty of people with the same water authority that have kept fish easily.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

blackwaterguy said:


> I just e-mailed them so I only need to wait for a response. This is still strange as I know plenty of people with the same water authority that have kept fish easily.


It all depends upon the species. But until we know the hardness, we're just making assumptions.


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## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Byron said:


> It all depends upon the species. But until we know the hardness, we're just making assumptions.


A lot of the same species I was looking at tetras/corydoras. Still no return e-mail. I looked for a test at Petsmart and sadly they only had strips. I guess I'll need to order a test online although the ph has stuck around 6.4 since then.


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## jennesque (May 11, 2011)

Question: (since you mentioned the strips) do the test strips work for KH and GH? I know it was accurate as far as my pH when I had the test strips.. I know that everyone's opposed to the test strips, but I wasn't sure if the KH and GH aspects of the test strips were worth trying at all.


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## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

I've been watching this thread because I have a related issue. My tap pH is 8.4 with a hardness of 14-15 dGH (fairly hard), and my tank pH is 7.4. I suspected this was due to the large amount of wood in my tank. I can think of no other possible cause. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad the pH is lower... _except _when it comes time to do a water change and then I feel like the pH shifts more than I'd like. Even more so because ultimately I want to go to an even lower pH for South American fish! So, in order to both experiment and perhaps solve this problem, I put about 15 gallons of water (pH 8.4) in a storage bin with a piece of mopani and stress coat. That's it. Five days later the pH is 7.2. Since the experiment was successful, I will throw a heater in the bin and use it for my weekly water change. I may even go as far as to put even more wood in there to see if I can lower it to about 6.5, which is ultimately where I'd like my tank to be. In the long run this seems less expensive than buying distilled or RO water, and surely safer than chemicals.

So, the short of it... I suppose I'm saying that, in my experience, wood can alter pH perhaps more than is recognized in this thread. As has been stated, hardness and alkalinity can affect this and certainly others understand (and can explain) this relationship much better than I do. So I'm really interested to hear what your hardness is and how that factors into your situation!


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## 1077 (Apr 16, 2008)

Storing the water in tub such as you are doing with the wood,, is effective but keep in mind that over time,,the wood will release tannins which works to soften the water, until there are no more tannins to release,Then it becomes less effective.
I have a 55 gallon tank with approx eight large pieces of mopani wood,as well as malaysian wood and moderately hard water out of the tap pH 7.6 ,10 GH.
Tank's pH is around 7.0 to 7.2 with weekly water changes of 50 percent.
Used to be when wood was new, that pH ran as low as 6.5 but as wood released the tannins over time,,the buffering capacity of my water caught up, and now to keep pH at 7.0,, I perform smaller water changes more frequently or,, in 29 gal with six or small pieces of driftwood, with anubia attached, holding German Blue Ram and cardinal's,, I plant lot's of plant's and perform water change of 25 percent once a month.(larger or more frequent water change, would cause rapid shift)
In this way ,I don't have to store much water and plant's help use up waste from fishes for growth.
Truly, plant's are very useful in helping maintain stability.


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## KendraMc (Jul 20, 2011)

are you letting your tap water sit before testing it? my understanding is that water will sometimes have a different pH straight out of the tap than after sitting due to dissolved gas from the pressure of coming out of the faucet. try letting it sit for 24 hours then test it again.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Both 1077 and KendraMc have very pertinent points. Wood, like peat and dry leaves, initially releases more tannin but this declines considerably as the tannins (which are exhaustable) are leeched out. This means that long-term it is not a "safe" method, and diluting the tap water with "pure" water is absolute. I may have more when I know the answer to the pH queston KendraMc raised; test the tap water after a glass has sat 24 hours.

Byron.


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## MinaMinaMina (Aug 28, 2011)

Yes, I understand your points. My tap is 8.2 after sitting out, I had looked into that before. I suppose I should have stated more clearly- 

My initial set up for the experiment was free, I already had all the materials sitting around unused. Beyond that, it still seems much less expensive to me to replace a piece of mopani every so often than to buy RO. For 60 gallons of RO for a month, it would cost me almost twenty dollars. So even if I had to replace the mopani with an equally sized piece every month, I'd still be paying almost $7 less per month. And I'm quite sure that I wouldn't have to get a new piece every month, as the piece I'm using now had been in a tank for 2 months previous to the experiment and is still leeching. So as long as I test the pH of the stored water before adding it to make sure that my the tank pH and storage pH are the same, then I see no problem. Am I missing something here?


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## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

I also have the same question as jennesque. How accurate are strips for testing GH and KH? I've avoided them since I had always heard liquid tests give a better reading.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

blackwaterguy said:


> I also have the same question as jennesque. How accurate are strips for testing GH and KH? I've avoided them since I had always heard liquid tests give a better reading.


Test strips are "approximate" and may or may not be accurate to the degree that you can rely on them. Air temp, humidity both affect them. Liquid tests do not have this problem provided they are not exposed to extreme temp or light.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

MinaMinaMina said:


> Yes, I understand your points. My tap is 8.2 after sitting out, I had looked into that before. I suppose I should have stated more clearly-
> 
> My initial set up for the experiment was free, I already had all the materials sitting around unused. Beyond that, it still seems much less expensive to me to replace a piece of mopani every so often than to buy RO. For 60 gallons of RO for a month, it would cost me almost twenty dollars. So even if I had to replace the mopani with an equally sized piece every month, I'd still be paying almost $7 less per month. And I'm quite sure that I wouldn't have to get a new piece every month, as the piece I'm using now had been in a tank for 2 months previous to the experiment and is still leeching. So as long as I test the pH of the stored water before adding it to make sure that my the tank pH and storage pH are the same, then I see no problem. Am I missing something here?


Mopani wood is much higher in tannins than many other types, such as the Malaysian driftwood that I use. But again, it is initial tannin which after just a couple months will be much less. Buying Mopani wood is not cheap, at least not where I live; it is very expensive. Plus, it carries the very real danger of toxic fungus that can kill fish. This is unknown, some Mopani has various fungus species and some are toxic, some not. Having tried it once and lost fish, I will never buy it again.:-(

You mention your GH, but not the KH (alkalinity) which is the pH related measurement. A lower KH might be helping lower pH.

GH can be lowered by boiling; boiling the water dissipates out the calcium and magnesium salts causing hardness, so it becomes soft. Cheaper perhaps than buying water? Boiling does not affect bicarbonates (KH), but they may be low anyway. I would try this in a small tank.


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## jennesque (May 11, 2011)

So, if I want to test them for curiousity's sake and just test my water and tap water as soon as I get the kit, it should be relatively accurate? Just nit recommended if you're trying to change your gh or kh and are trying to monitor it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

jennesque said:


> So, if I want to test them for curiousity's sake and just test my water and tap water as soon as I get the kit, it should be relatively accurate? Just nit recommended if you're trying to change your gh or kh and are trying to monitor it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The liquid API hardness kit is reliable, for our purposes anyway. Test strips I would not bother with, they may or may not be. If you just want to know your tap water hardness, contact the water supply folks, they can tell you (may have a website with data posted).


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