# Ick Issue Take 2



## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

After trying to hijack MoneyMitch thread, I figured it may be better to start my own...

So I seen white spotted Cardinals when I got home, immediately dialed up Temp and did a good size w/c. 

Dialed up Temp some more after dinner and went to town to get the ONLY product I found called 'QuIck Cure" does acc to the package (well actually a little less rather then killing my Cardinals) and in the AM I will dial up heat more.

Anyone any suggestions what else I can do to safe the 4 left (1 passed away over dinner from the 5)???

*What are chances with ick really*, I mean will they just all die on me now (sorry but I'm totally NEW to having sick fish at home, never had this problem before)?

This AM: Dialed up Temp more, Added Air stone as suggested (adjuested to give off a good handful of bubbles but not running on full speed - OK?)

Now the label say's daily, max treatment 3x day....Now* what do I do just add the stuff once *a day or 2, 3 times???
The only thing it say's as active ingredient is 'Formalin & Malachite Green' -* Will this be safe *with my plants cause I'd hate to loose my fish AND plants??


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## Kelso (Oct 28, 2009)

Alright, Keep the temp around 85. Thats where I'm at and its working. My puffer is recovering very nicely. Try this organic thing...I didn't believe it would work, but it has, called Ich Attack if you can find it anywhere. Try any store that carried fish supplies, even wal mart. Just use a capful per ten gallons of that stuff. Do your water changes, vacuum the gravel heavily! If your filter can can reach a higher speed, do that, as opposed to the airstone.

Dont forget to remove the carbon!


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

I have no carbon in non my filters (planted tanks here).
As I said the ONLY think I found here was called QuIck Cure and I really wanna help my guys but I will not drive all the way to GA to maybe find another Medicine there now.

Filter is Eheim 2213 running full speed - So remove or leave airstone??

As I done w/c yesterday I'd not do one till next week now...do them daily now or what, I am confused a lil?


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## Kelso (Oct 28, 2009)

A little off topic, but Ive never had a problem with my plants while keeping carbon in.

Well keep up with the ick treatment you have unless youre willing to shell out money for a next day air order online. Well an air stone may be overkill because of your plants, your creating a greater exchange of oxygen, you dont wanna harm the plants either. Use your best judgement to determine with your getting enough disturbance at the surface from your filter alone. Your filter is over all better than mine, so chance are youre keeping it oxygenated enough.

When I was under full ich breakout, I conducted a water change about every three days. I did approximately 30%. 2 things: Make sure you do the pwc before you dose the tank for the day and make sure your heater gets plugged back in when youre all done! Mine fell out and my puffer was covered in ich worse than ever because the temp went to 71 F last week.


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

I adjusted the outlet for the Eheim so it'll disturb the surface more then I usually would set it up.
Airstone off.

That stuff say's to treat UP TO 3x daily max...I'm still not sure if I should only do once or twice or even 3 time a day, Cardinal are touchy after all....???

God I hope I can get the fish through this!


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## Kelso (Oct 28, 2009)

three times a day seems like a lot, and unnecessary too. To me it just sounds like a way to use more so you have to buy more. I would dose the proper amount for the tank once a day.


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## Twistersmom (Dec 9, 2008)

I have used quick cure before, with good results. Its been a few years though. If I remember correctly, I only used it once a day at half dose and did a pwc every 3 days.
This stuff will not rid your tank of ick in three days, as it claims. Use it for at least a full week after all visual signs are gone. 
What temp is the tank now? I have never gone over 82 deg, when using ick meds. Both meds and heat depreciate oxygen levels. 
Having plants, makes it more difficult. I have not used Quick Cure in a planted tank. I am sure, they will not enjoy the meds or extra air, don't know if it will be enough to kill them. Byron might have some good advice in regards to your plants.


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## Kelso (Oct 28, 2009)

Oh yeah! If plants are a major concern, a bucket will do just fine for more fragile plants. If you dont have any other fish that are sensitive, I think youre cardinals will do fine with the high temp.


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

I guess from what y'all are saying I do have a fair chance they will survive this huh?

Yea that would be VERY much not cool if I killed all my plants in the go, but a bucket for my plants won't do, more like 2-3 buckets. And pulling them up & in the other tank is no option considering I don't wanna get the other fish sick too.
I'll wait & see if maybe Byron has and idea here for me for the plants.


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## Twistersmom (Dec 9, 2008)

Do you have a QT tank you can move the fish into for treatment? Yes, I do not think curing the fish will be a problem, but I will not pretend to be the plant expert Byron is.
If you are able to move the fish, the ick in the planted tank "should" die off, without fish. Don't quote me on that though. Maybe someone else will chime in.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Natalie PM'd me direct and I responded, copied below for the record.

I've not used Quick Cure myself. You say it contains formalin and malachite green. Formalin is toxic to algae [and thus perhaps plants?]and at high doses some fish, and it depletes oxygen at higher temps, according to some (presumably) good info at this Univ of Florida site: VM77/VM061: Use of Formalin to Control Fish Parasites

Malachite green has similar warnings: MalachiteGreen

I use malachite green to spot treat fungus, by moistening a Q-Tip with pure malachite green and dabbing a spot of fungus on the fish (netted out of the water momentarily). It kills fungus on contact. It used to be recommended as an ich cure, similar to methylene blue; both are dyes that stain the water (and everything else). Plants were said to be affected. perhaps due to light issues but some suspect other chemical/biological issues beyond just less light. On my MG bottle it says to use half strength with tetras.

Raising the temp will not hurt the cardinals or rummynose, both can withstand mid-80's. Plants may not like it. Someone on here recently said that just raising the temp to 87+ would kill ich without anything else; I've no idea, but as you have no other meds it may be worth trying.

I would use the Quick Cure cautiously, cardinals and rummys are characins and all characins are sensitive to chemicals and medications. My own treatment for ich (and any other parasite) is Aquari-Sol. It does contain copper, toxic to fish and plants at high doses, but the manufacturer says it is safe for sensitive species and I have never lost a fish (including Corydoras who do not like any medications period) when using it, nor have any plants ever been affected. I never bother to raise the temp, just use it for 5-6 days.

Another treatment is salt, plus temp raising. I would not use this if I had Aquari-Sol because I believe the salt is more detrimental to sensitive fish and plants. But if the cardinals are really bad, you may have to risk the plants to save them.

Byron.


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

I have a 1g I could use for OT - But would this transfer (or rather catching 4 Cardinals outta 55g) further stress them?? And/ Or wouldn't this funges attach itself into the gravel and DW etc? Meaning if I cure them in the QT then place them back it'll start all over again?
They're their usual active self and feeding well, so the behavior is normal. 

On a side note as I told Byron in the reply, I WILL QT any fish from here on after that comes in my house for at least 1 week, this being my first sick experience...its horrible...At least the more I find out there more my hopes are up the Cardinals will actually survive this, so let's hope I can get the tank through this w/out major harm and starting from scratch again *crossing fingers*.


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## Twistersmom (Dec 9, 2008)

I agree, that a 1 gal would be to small for all those fish. You are better off leaving them where they are.
Glad to hear the fish are already acting better.
Hope all the plants & fish pull through the treatment for you.


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Thanks Twistermom....God knows I hope so...this is kinda like your baby coming down with a fever and cold for the first time and you feel totally helpless in the situation...
On the 'up side' within all this trouble....at least now I see why some folks rather keep plastic plants in the thanks, hadn't quite understood this in the past, now I'm giving it a whole new perspective


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## Twistersmom (Dec 9, 2008)

It will all work itself out. Getting a new tank going, with new fish, is always the hard part.
I have lots of plastic plants, but they will never make a tank as beautiful as real. (the upside to plastic, they don't taste good)


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Update this AM :BIGweepy:.... 3 dead, 1 remaining alive still all dotted....
NO2, 3, Ammonia, Chlorine = 0 
KH 4 (stable) GH 4 (stable) pH 7.2 (stable)

What am I supposed to do, just let the last Cardinal remain in peace w/out treatment that will stress him and just let him go or continue a treatment that obviously didn't work (thou doses 1 drop less then they advised for Tetra's)???

I'm at the end of the rope here and just killed 4 Cardinals and somehow feel no 5 will follow them.....Maybe I should scrap the tanks and hose reptiles......How on earth did I ever mange to loose ONE fish and one cray in all these yrs and now 5 in just a matter of days!?!?!?!?


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## Twistersmom (Dec 9, 2008)

So sorry! If you believe the meds, did the fish in, I would stop using it. You can still try the heat treatment.
Sounds like you are going to have restocking to do. With no good fish stores around, I would place an online order for some "first aid" meds, just to have around if needed.


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## Kelso (Oct 28, 2009)

I would personally put the last one to sleep. I'm so sorry. ='(


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

No need to put anyone to sleep....After a wonderful day out with family...came home to the last remaining one being dead, after the 3 dead Cardinals this AM before we left, I didn't have much hope to come home to an alive one.

I just DO NOT understand what happened here, seriously, I mean was it my plants that made them sick? Then why are the Rummy's in the other tank that I gotten the same day not sick too, have some of the same plants in them!? Wasn't it running long enough yet (thou I never heard of that causing ick) and if that's the problem, again why are the Rummy's doing well? It just really GETS ME, I went about setting up the 55&45g the SAME way, some of the same plants, different gravel & pump ok, but same approach for cycling then bought 5 fish each (with the thught of stocking them to a school later) I just do not understand what went SO WRONG between the 55g and the 45g being alright!?
And apart from all that, WHERE do I start now??? I'm afraid to put ANYTHING in the 55g period so what do I do now?
It just doesn't get into my head how I can be so successful to have so many tanks over all these yrs and now starting after the move everything goes o hell apparently. I mean how can my tanks have been doing so awesome before and now so crappy!?


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## Kelso (Oct 28, 2009)

Think about it this way. There's always gonna be chances with living lives. Take a look at dogs. Probably the simplest pet in terms of care on this planet. You don't need special equipment like a heating lamp, litter box, cage, or filter. There's no testing water, checking the temperature, over feeding (usually) and because of this it makes them one of the most loved and easiest pets to take care of and love.

Now take fish: Temperature, water, tank, heater, filter, media, electricity, lights, medicines, food quality and quantity, decorations, gravel, filter media, testing supplies, water conditioners, and various forms of equipment such as nets and breeders and gravel vacs. There are so many factors that the risk of something happening to a fish compared to a dog increases! A dog only requires food and shelter and a loving hand. Do you get what I'm getting at? The more factors, the more risks. Fish keeping is delicate. Things don't always go right, I just went through a minor crash, and the one fish who I didn't think that was gonna make it who did...was my ich-covered puffer.

It all depends on how you look at it. Remember, you started fish keeping for a reason again. Granted it is expensive, but you love the hobby and I know you know that there were gonna be problems and risks somewhere down the line, and that...that makes you that much wiser.


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Funny you use the doggie example being the easiest pet....I got 2 and one of them just got diagnosed with some extreme diabetes late this summer (sugar went so high that it was 5 till 12 for his life actually).

I just wished I understood WHAT made them so sick - Not knowing what caused this in the first place, how am I to make sure its not gonna happen again?? You know what I mean?I don't wanna sound cruel or anything but I don't want to keep re-stocking over & over spending all this money just to watch them die, that's just not what I want.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

I've been following this thread without much comment as I have little if any knowledge of disease beyond the basics. I had a similar if not identical experience a year ago. Cardinals and rummynose were the fish involved, new 33g tank setup. It pretty much went as your experience did, end result, all fish dead from velvet (that's even worse than ich).

Some observations. First, on ich. This always occurs due to stress. Healthy fish that are not stressed by adverse water conditions, temperature abnormalities, bullying, fright...whatever, will not come down with ich; they fight it off. So, something triggered it. I have also noted that it can occur in aquaria that have had nothing new added in months. I am not going to speculate as to where it comes from. I believe that keeping fish healthy and free of stress is a major preventative to ich and similar pathogens. I'm not suggesting you don't do this, I am only observing that something along the line stressed the fish to the extent that it weakened their resitance.

Second, characins are a diverse but quite special group of fish. There are seemingly indestructible species like Pristella that even do well in brackish water (the only tetra species I know of that does). But for the most part, they are sensitive to environmental factors and water parameters and quality, and especially to chemicals and medications. Characins are unique among freshwater fish in that they posess two features: the Weber Apparatus--a chain of ossicles, a fusing of three (I think) vertebrae that connect to the gas bladder and internal ear--and a chemical alarm system. Other fish groups have the rudiments of the ossicle apparatus, but the characins possess it fully developed. These fish have an uncanny ability to sense danger before it occurs. They can also detect food before other fish. Their hearing is very highly developed and accute--they can hear the water running through the pipes in your house. And, they have a strong chemical aversion.

Cardinals are very sensitive fish. Rummynose are as well. From past experience, I would never add these fish to newish aquaria. I put them in the same class as the pencilfish and many of the corydoras species; let the tank become established biologically so the water quality is stable, minimum 3 months after initial setup. I can state from my own experience (but I have read of the same from others) that these fish introduced to new setups invariably die (some or all), yet in well-established tanks they always survive. Food for thought.

Byron.


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

I'm glad you're coming fwd with comments!!!
See that's what I mean - I just want to UNDERSTAND- Like I said the 45g Rummy tank is set up identical to the 55g Cardinal tank - Rummy's are perfectly fine, Cardinals dead....so obviously SOMETHING that I can't see or test for was off track somewhere and that lil 'trigger' is what I want to understand so I can (hopefully) prevent it in the future. 

I am just really wondering (since it the ONLY difference I can see/ test in the tanks) if the fact that the 55g has hair algae is ANY indicator on what triggered the ick !?

Maybe you could also read my threat in the main forum 'Where to go from here' and see if you have any ideas there for me. I do want to restock the 55g eventually BUT what fish to start with. Org I wanted it a Tetra tank with Cory's, now non of them appear a good starter fish to me. So I was wondering for a good Company for the Rummy Tank, however place these new guys (after 1 week QT min) in the 55 for several months to get the tank going and then later relocate them in the Rummy's Tank...I donno where to go really.....


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## Kelso (Oct 28, 2009)

I apologize for the dog comment then. I know how it is. My dog had Lyme disease. Not saying they're indestructible, but pretty darn close  Byron's post makes a lot of sense. I'd have to agree with his thoughts.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Angel079 said:


> I'm glad you're coming fwd with comments!!!
> See that's what I mean - I just want to UNDERSTAND- Like I said the 45g Rummy tank is set up identical to the 55g Cardinal tank - Rummy's are perfectly fine, Cardinals dead....so obviously SOMETHING that I can't see or test for was off track somewhere and that lil 'trigger' is what I want to understand so I can (hopefully) prevent it in the future.
> 
> I am just really wondering (since it the ONLY difference I can see/ test in the tanks) if the fact that the 55g has hair algae is ANY indicator on what triggered the ick !?
> ...


Natalie, I'm heading out in a few moments, will be back online tomorrow and respond in detail. Just so you don't think I'm ignoring you. By the way, algae is not going to cause fish deaths. This was a case of stress for probably several reasons. Later, B.


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Byron said:


> Just so you don't think I'm ignoring you.


I'd never think that of you!!!! I know you'll always be there with an advise if you have one and have time :-D Thanks in advance!


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Angel079 said:


> I'm glad you're coming fwd with comments!!!
> See that's what I mean - I just want to UNDERSTAND- Like I said the 45g Rummy tank is set up identical to the 55g Cardinal tank - Rummy's are perfectly fine, Cardinals dead....so obviously SOMETHING that I can't see or test for was off track somewhere and that lil 'trigger' is what I want to understand so I can (hopefully) prevent it in the future.
> 
> I am just really wondering (since it the ONLY difference I can see/ test in the tanks) if the fact that the 55g has hair algae is ANY indicator on what triggered the ick !?
> ...


OK, read through the other thread, can't add to what 1077 suggested. After 1-2 weeks (2 weeks to be certain) with no fish in the tank, should be OK to add fish. The plants will manage (light on as usual, etc) and handle the new fish, just a few at first. Again, the algae had nothing to do with ich. Ich occurs when fish are stressed, always. I have noticed a couple spots when new fish are added; but if the fish in the tank are healthy and "happy" the spots disappear and no others occur, and without medication. But if the fish were highly stressed, or sensitive, not so lucky.

The pH will lower as this tank matures over the first 3+ months. Mine always do this. Tap water here is 6.8-7.0, no hardness (zero). Tanks lower to 6.0 and I keep them there. Cardinals are fine in this. But only added after 2-3 months when the tank is stable.

Some corydoras species are OK in a new tank, some not. The dwarf/pygmy species almost always seem to die in new tanks, but in established tanks I never lose one when they are introduced. I've never had problems with any of the spotted varieties in new tanks. C. panda are also highly sensitive, would wait for those. And except for cardinals and rummy, most of the tetra species seem to be fine. Depends upon which you want.

B.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Angel,
Sorry it took me so long to get here. Have been quite busy with holidays and family on this end.

A few things I'd like to address since you requested I add some input for you...

1. Malachite green is effective on fungal problems for 2 reasons, primarily the staining effect it offers. By blocking out the light from fungus it thus kills the fungus. This is also important to know because the staining in the water may also affect your plants. The staining in the water will block light that your plants need. If you notice any of your plants not doing so well I would strongly suggest you move them to a bucket of clean water and get some light on them. I understand how difficult it can be in a fully planted tank, the thought of digging up plants that were thriving... but that is really the only option when it comes to something like this.

2. As was already suggested by twistersmom, dose the meds once/day only. I would not suggest using it beyond the suggested treatment on the bottle. If it says 3 days, then end your treatment after 3 days, give the fish a few days to recover and if you still think its needed, I would strongly suggest trying to find a customer service or tech support number for the makers of the medication and ask them before using it for a longer period of time. Dosing meds beyond instructions on the bottles can make things worse, especially when dealing with formaldahyde... which is the formalin content in this med. 

3. Added aeration in the tank is something I would strongly suggest until all meds are removed from the water and the temp is decreased to the normal temp range for that tank. Formalin will quickly deplete any tank of oxygen, and as was mentioned, warm water contains less oxygen... mix those two together and you could lose fish and plants both due to oxygen depletion.

4. Be prepared to add carbon to your filter at the end of treatment to help remove the meds. Do not rely on water changes alone. Formalin is clear in color, and there is no way to know that the meds are completely removed without the use of carbon and good circulation. I would keep the carbon in the filter for 1 - 2 wks beyond medication just to be safe. Some meds are not as easily removed as others.

I hope your fish have been ok thus far... let me know if there is anything more I can do to help.

Good luck to you!


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

Thanks Byron! 
Yea its gonna be lil over 2 weeks before I get any new fish. However I'm debating hard to just set up a 10g QT for the new fish, so then at least the plants in the 55g wouldn't be affected that bad again IF anything happens which it better not 

I just really do not know who to 'pick' to start stocking the 55g...Here's a list of fish I eventually would like to keep between the 45g (that has the Rummy's in it) and the empty 55g.... IMO non of these are a good fish to start establish the battled 55g over the next few months now!?

Cardinal Tetra’s
Rummy Nose
Emperor Tetra’s 
Silver Hatchetfish 
Blue Tetra (_Mimagoniates microlepis_ ) 
Dawn Tetra (_Aphyocharax paraguayensis_ ) 
Glass Catfish 
Honey Gourami 
Cory (_C. trillineatus_) 
Pencilfish


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## Angel079 (Feb 14, 2007)

@bettababy
Thanks I had done all this (Minus plant removal). However any advise is too late, as posted prior they all passed 2 days ago.


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## Byron (Mar 7, 2009)

Angel079 said:


> Thanks Byron!
> Yea its gonna be lil over 2 weeks before I get any new fish. However I'm debating hard to just set up a 10g QT for the new fish, so then at least the plants in the 55g wouldn't be affected that bad again IF anything happens which it better not
> 
> I just really do not know who to 'pick' to start stocking the 55g...Here's a list of fish I eventually would like to keep between the 45g (that has the Rummy's in it) and the empty 55g.... IMO non of these are a good fish to start establish the battled 55g over the next few months now!?
> ...


Most of those would be OK, except for the cardinals, rummys, pencilfish. The striped corys seem better at adjusting to tanks. Silver hatchetfish, which one? My favourites are the Carnegiella genus, the Black-winged (C. marthae) is quite a lovely silvery fish, and smaller than the other two genera Gasteropelicus and Thoracocharax which in my mind are not as pretty. The lovely marbles are also Carnegiella species. Make sure these have been in the store for a couple weeks after arrival; they are very susceptible to ich, very. If tank raised, they are otherwise fairly hardy; wild caught fish (which I have) are less so but once settled in an established tank do fine. But they do jump, all of them; I lost two recently when they jumped out overnight after I foolishly left the cover glass open by 2 inches after feeding them.

The Aphyocharax paraguayensis I cannot recommend for any community tank. They are prone to bullying, big time. No actual damage seems to be inflicted, but their tactics in my aquaria caused all the other fish to disappear behind plants, and most wouldn't come out even to feed after two days. I had to remove the A. paraguayensis, then the other fish came back out in the open after they realized the terrors were gone. Of course, ich broke out due to the stress, big time, so had to resort to medicating the tank with Aquari-Sol. Wouldn't advise A. paraguayensis except in a species tank, in a large group, well planted. I've had them twice.

Byron.


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