# Mulling ideas for my 10 gallon - Clowns and corals?



## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

So, I have an empty 10 gallon and I have been mulling around ideas of what to do with it. My 2.5 gallon fresh is going to be first and foremost but I think I want to turn my 10 gallon into a salt tank. I was at my LFS and wandering around when I came across fancy snowflake clownfish. I'd love to have a pair (I did some research and read this is possible!) in the tank. Can they be kept with corals? I have a 20 gallon tall I could use as a sump on this tank. I don't know the first thing about saltwater but I know nanos are hard and I am willing to invest the time and care needed for this tank. I will also be using dry rock and sand as opposed to live to avoid unwanted friends if I decide to go this route. Any and all advice is appreciated.


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## badxgillen (Aug 20, 2010)

Clownfish are generally safe with your corals\inverts, I personally have never had a problem with any of them except the maroon and tomato clowns.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

I read maroon and tomato clowns get too big for a 10. I think fancy snowflake are ocellaris if I'm not mistaken?


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

I just watched a video of a 10 gallon reef that was supposedly up and running for nine months. It was home to an ocellaris clown, two fire fish and a mandarin goby. It had a 1 gallon HOB sump? and something else I don't remember. How is that stock possible without a larger sump? I thought a fire fish or two clowns was pushing stock on a 10 gallon reef.


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## badxgillen (Aug 20, 2010)

With diligent water changes,a well established system & live rock, and chemical media it is possible.I keep a number of fish in my little 10 gallon with the assistance of some macro algae and carbon...ontop of water changes.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

I really loved the activity in the tank and would much prefer that stock. It was gorgeous. 



 is the video. I think I misidentified the fire fish....


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## badxgillen (Aug 20, 2010)

Well now that I have seen the video that is an exceptional 10 gallon. Very clean with a nice variety of corals. Yes that is a purple fire fish in the tank.
Later in the video he reveals part of his success and that is a over rated skimmer and a custom refugium that is packed with macro,there is probably either many water changes involved or dosing of some sort, you can tell it is not a novices tank.Certainly obtainable with patience,time and money.

The skimmer and LED are pricey,you can make the refugium out of an aqua clear pretty easily.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

I have an extra 20 gallon (tall) I can use, would that help? I'm willing to go about this slowly and spend the money to have a tank like this.


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## badxgillen (Aug 20, 2010)

A 20 would be easier to manage.as long as you have patience, a good salt tank takes time. Start off with some good live rock and a little live sand to jump start your system and then give it a couple weeks before testing and adding any clean up crew.The cycle in salt can take any where form a couple weeks to a month.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

I can't use the 20 as the actual tank, only filtration if that's possible. Where the tank is just won't hold the 20.


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## wake49 (Jul 2, 2008)

Flint said:


> I can't use the 20 as the actual tank, only filtration if that's possible. Where the tank is just won't hold the 20.


Adding the twenty will help. You will be essentially tripling your water supply, and therefore diminishing the chances of huge salinity swings due to evaporation. 

What kind of clowns are you thinking about. I think false percs may be the best option for such a small DT...


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## badxgillen (Aug 20, 2010)

The common snowflake clown is an Ocelaris I believe.


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## wake49 (Jul 2, 2008)

badxgillen said:


> The common snowflake clown is an Ocelaris I believe.


Yeah, I missed that in the first post. I believe they are also. 

I think that would be fine, personally.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

I'd really like to stock my tank as the video's tank was stocked. I am never gone for more than 4 hours so water changes aren't an issue and I don't have an issue waiting and drawing it out to do things right.


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## badxgillen (Aug 20, 2010)

Let me know when you get started and I can be of some assistance. First thing is first and you need a way of measuring salinity so a refractometer is in order,you can get away with a hydrometer but they are unwieldy and notoriously inaccurate.They are better than nothing.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

I've seen some refractometers for fairly cheap on Amazon ($25-30 if I remember correctly) so I will definitely get one of those. I was reading around and read that Mandarin Gobies (I belive that's what I saw in the video) are hard to care for. Is there truth to this? Also, what is the name of the "Jacque" shrimp as I like to call him? 

Am I being unreasonable in doing this on my first attempt at salt water? I know that in freshwater, there are a lot of things we advise beginners against but I feel that if you have the time and are willing to do things properly this could be different. I know saltwater is a whole 'nother can of worms, though.


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## badxgillen (Aug 20, 2010)

Don't expect perfection without some bumps in the road,all part of salt water cycling. Read alot more as you can never be too mentally prepared. The madarins are not considered easy fish as they can be rather finicky about the foods they take and can be easily out competed for food stuffs, especially when they only eat live copopods.They can ship poorly too, they tend to do better if they are captive raised but spendy, I like to get mine after they have been in the shop for a few days or more. Make sure they are foraging and have a full tummy.

The shrimp is referred to as a cleaner shrimp.


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## jimscott (Jan 24, 2014)

One thing I was taught was that the bigger the tank, especially for salt, the better. It's more stable when it comes to chemistry and temperature. One of the things I experienced when it came to taking care of the salt section is that I could leave work on Friday, and all looked well.... and when I came back on Monday, there were times when the tank was wiped out or nearly so. All it took was one dead fish or one dead anemone to start a chain reaction. And that was with 30 gallon tanks. 70 gallon tanks weren't nearly as susceptible to that phenomenon. 

As a side note, when the powers that be decided to get a 'system' of inter-connected tanks, we could put 4X as many fish in them and have very few losses. Even Cryptacarion wasn't an issue. But that was a business, and not a private setup...


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

I'm thinking about doing exactly what he did as far as filtration and adding the 20 gal on top of that. It should make it THAT much easier but would it be too much? Also, I will be using live sand and dry rock to cycle. MAYBE a damsel for the simple fact that it'll be THAT much easier for me to visually see if something is off in the tank aside from frequent testing. I've seen scary 6ft worms come out of live rock. Not interested in hitchhikers at all!!!!! Will a damsel harm corals? I'd like to get my corals set up and get a hang of them before I add my stock.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badxgillen (Aug 20, 2010)

Some damsels can be a nuisance to certain corals via cleaning for algae or polyp nipping but many are reef safe. What were you ,looking at?


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

Just a hardy, cheap damsel to provide an ammonia source and an indicator that something is wrong. I think the most commonly used are Yellowtail Blue Damsel?


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## badxgillen (Aug 20, 2010)

Yeah the yellow tail are the ones most often used for this along with the blue damsel. I really like the springeri damsel as it is pretty,reef safe and not as aggressive as its counterparts.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

I just want it for the cycle/establishment of the tank so I'm looking for common, $5 damsels. Are the yellowtail, blue and three spot domino damsels reef-safe?


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## wake49 (Jul 2, 2008)

Flint said:


> I just want it for the cycle/establishment of the tank so I'm looking for common, $5 damsels. Are the yellowtail, blue and three spot domino damsels reef-safe?


Fish are not really necessary for a cycle in saltwater. Live rock and live sand have enough beneficial bacteria to cycle a tank. Add the live rock and live sand and in as little as a few days, everything will read zero!

When so you plan on adding coral? I would wait until dKH and calcium stabilize. New tanks have higher demands in these two parameters, with the production of coralline algae and short cycling. You want to get dKH to stabilize around 8-12 and calcium between 400-450 ppm. 


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

I also want something to look at while my corals are establishing that, if something should go wrong, won't be a $150 clown or the likes. I'm going to be using dry rock and live sand, not live rock.

Not sure when I'll add coral, I'll probably wait until the tank has been cycled for at least a month.


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## badxgillen (Aug 20, 2010)

With all base rock it may take longer than anticipated before you are able to start dropping corals in.

Even if you start off with all live rock and sand you still need to cycle the tank. Readings of 0 in the beginning does not mean the tank is done with its organic waste conversion. Transferring of live rock and sand in to different systems causes a small shift\die off in the organisms present. I don't know how many times I have heard from a new hobbyist...My tank is reading good on water parameters with 0 ammonia,0 nitrite, 0 nitrate, and 0 phosphate but I have algae,diatoms,cyano, or my corals and snails are not doing well"What should I do?".These issues are all part of a bigger scheme with an over abundance of one thing causing imbalances in the system.Long story short is wait more than a few days to put in anything especially sensitive inverts and test before you tweak the system.Get a full range test kit so you don't have to rely on others testing your ammonia,PH,nitrite,nitrate.It also will help you understand some of the relations in parameters such as calcium,KH,mag.

Keeping a nano with many corals can be a fine line especially if you plan on having sensitive SPS corals.Certainly doable with lots of research and patience but I can tell you there is a reason there are not really nice nanos like that in many peoples homes and that has to do with money and serious attention to the details.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

I know it'll take a while and I don't want to add the corals until the tank has been stable for at least a month for that reason.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wake49 (Jul 2, 2008)

I must apologize. The "cycle" I was referring to was strictly the Nitrigen Cycle. Badx is right, a tank needs to substantially mature before adding life is appropriate. I was actually posting hoping you would forego the damsel as a "fish-in" cycle. My main point was the bacteria you are usually seeking (when doing a fish-in cycle in freshwater aquaria) is already present in the live rock and live sand, eliminating the need for fish in the cycle. 


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

Now I'm confused, why do people cycle with damsels then? I won't be using live rock so it is going to put a significant damper on this process.


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## wake49 (Jul 2, 2008)

Flint said:


> Now I'm confused, why do people cycle with damsels then? I won't be using live rock so it is going to put a significant damper on this process.


Are you using live sand? It is far more beneficial bacteria-wise than rock, anyhow. There are millions of more bacteria in sand than rock, since every grain of sand has bacteria on every surface. The finer the sand, the more bacteria it can hold. A rock has a much larger _surface_ area per rock, but if you flattened out the all the sand in your tank to represent every surface area on each grain of sand, it would be far larger than the surface area of all your rock in the tank. 

With base-rock or dry-rock, there can be significant phosphate leaching for the first few months. I had this problem when I set up my current tank. Mostly dry rock and a huge hair algae bloom that still surfaces every so often. 

I assume people fish-in cycle marine tanks because that has been common practice in freshwater aquaria since the dawn of fish keeping. Damsels are usually used because they are very hardy fish. You basically have to get them wet to keep them alive. It still stresses out the fish. I have set up multiple saltwater tanks and have *never* done a fish in cycle. In my most current tank, it took me six months to add fish, and after I lost them (and I'm still unsure as to why) I waited another four to start stocking again. I currently have one Bicolor Dottyback that has been the sole inhabitant for a few months now...


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

Yes, I will be using live aragonite sand. Still haven't decided on a brand but currently looking into Arag-Alive Fiji Pink. 

Why does the rock leak? I'll probably keep this tank set up with just coral and a damsel for a good 6ish months, to avoid to the best of my ability a die-off. I am going to be spending well over $100 on just the clownfish, let alone the other stock I'll be adding. It's a loss I can't afford to take.


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## jimscott (Jan 24, 2014)

People use Damsels because they about the cheapest fish to use for cycling the tank. If it dies, it's not the greatest monetary loss. You'll think this is crazy, but Block Mollies can be acclimated to salt water and have been used as tank cycling sacrifices - and they are much cheaper than Damsels.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

Jim, were past the damsels already.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jimscott (Jan 24, 2014)

Then they're no longer in distress?


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