# New saltwater tank



## terryap

Hi everyone

I recently started a 20 gallon saltwater tank, I need some help with knowing where I am for the cycle...
tank has been running about a week with cured live rock.
I tested the water and both ammonia and nitrite are at 0, nitrate was at 5.
would appreciate some help with knowing where about I am.

I plan on getting 2 -3 small fish max, would also appreciate any suggestions

Thanks


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## Ramenuzumaki

Clownfish are my favourite! omg i love them so much 

black clowns are pretty pretty!


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## Pasfur

If the live rock you purchased was cured, then your aquarium is already cycled. That being said, lets talk marine tanks for a minute.

A cycled aquarium, being one that has the bacteria in place to process ammonia and nitrite, is not something to be overly excited about. More important than being cycled, is the general concept of having a "mature" aquarium. When we speak of a mature aquarium, we are talking about a few things.

First, the water has cycled. Second, the diatom bloom will have come and passed. The diatom bloom is a brown algae that quickly spreads across your sand bed and rock, and then receeds to a minimal problem. Third, you will notice that populations of copepods and amphipods begin to spread and are visible on your glass in great numbers. Finally, you will see coraline algae begin to cover your live rock and possibly the glass.

These signs of maturity are how you should judge the stability of your aquarium and its ability to support life.

I will check in again with you tonight to see if you have follow up questions about any of these concepts.


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## terryap

Thanks for all the info, there are a few living organisms on the rocks, not quite sure what they are, they are white tubes with a wider round part at the end, and they only come out when I open the light, and plenty of purple (different shades), light reddish and pinkish white and very little dark green coverage on the live rock already, hope this is an indication that the tank is somwhat ready for inverts?


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## terryap

I have also done another test, nitrite and ammonia still at 0, but nitrate seems to have risen from 5 ppm to between 10-15, what does this mean?
PH level is at 8.4

Thanks


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## Pasfur

terryap said:


> Thanks for all the info, there are a few living organisms on the rocks, not quite sure what they are, they are white tubes with a wider round part at the end, and they only come out when I open the light, and plenty of purple (different shades), light reddish and pinkish white and very little dark green coverage on the live rock already, hope this is an indication that the tank is somwhat ready for inverts?


What you are seeing is the normal progression of live rock as it settles into the tank. The majority of what you see now will slowly disappear and be replaced by coraline algae growth, which is what you want and is a sign of a stable environment.

Your nitrates are rising because some life on the rock is dying off, which is typical after a transition to a new tank. Your pH of 8.4 does not tell us much, because you need to test for alkalinity and calcium in order to correctly interpret the pH reading. Actually, going forward, the most important test for you will be alkalinity, calcium, and nitrate. These test need to be done weekly, and adjustments made when necessary to maintain the desired range.

On the subject of nitrate, we need to discuss your filter system and sand depth. Can you give some details?


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## terryap

thanks, sand is aragonite #4 nature's ocean, about 3 inches, skimmer is seaclone 100 ( I know, I have read the reviews..., I plan on getting a much more efficient model in a few months)
and have 30 lbs of live rock in the 20 gallon.
plus 2 power heads.

hope the above gives you enough info, appreciate your info

thanks


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## gus6464

Are you planning on having any corals at all?


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## terryap

I was thinking maybe a couple of mushrooms, since some of them do not require special lighting.


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## Pasfur

terryap said:


> thanks, sand is aragonite #4 nature's ocean, about 3 inches, skimmer is seaclone 100 ( I know, I have read the reviews..., I plan on getting a much more efficient model in a few months)
> and have 30 lbs of live rock in the 20 gallon.
> plus 2 power heads.
> 
> hope the above gives you enough info, appreciate your info
> 
> thanks



I think your Seaclone is an excellent skimmer for your size tank. I would not think about an upgrade.

You do have an issue with the depth of your sand bed. At depths between 1'' and 4'', denitrification is limited and detritus tends to accumulate, resulting in increasing phosphate levels and algae outbreaks. You want to target less than 1'' of sand, or even better between 4'' and 6'' for effective denitrification.


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## terryap

Skimmer has not been skimming anything yet though, but I've read since there is nothing in the tank except live rock, there is really nothing to skim.....and that it may require a break in time.
I will remove some of the sand to make around an inch, ( as I've already spent alot of $$$).
and one day, I will be upgrading to a larger tank, but for now I'll start with this and test my skill.

so any suggestions for good starter fish (small) or inverts? or mushrooms that do not require special lighting?
Also, which order should these be bought in? inverts, mushrooms and then fish last??

Thanks !!!!


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## Pasfur

For a test of skill, a 20 gallon tank is a challenge! Many newcomers to the saltwater hobby have the idea that they will do a small tank to "see how it goes." In the real world, aquariums smaller than 75 gallons are much more difficult to maintain and often drive people out of the hobby. So, if this does not turn out how you expect, the best thing to do is buy a bigger tank!

As for the order of adding your livestock, it really isn't relevant. You will only have 2 or at the most 3 very small fish in a 20 gallon reef. The order in which you add the fish is going to be the biggest decision and probably the only decision that could really cause problems, in terms of what to add when.

Any idea on what fish you want?


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## terryap

I was thinking either a tomato clown or ocellaris clown and a purple firefish or maybe a goby.
still thinking about it thought, but a clown will definately be my first choice, I love these fish.


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## terryap

Oh, and I am working on getting a 65 gallon, but I don't expect it to be up and running till after Christmas, but will still keep the 20 gallon, I used to have a 33 gallon years ago when I used to keep Freshwater fish, but unfortunately sold it.


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## Pasfur

terryap said:


> I was thinking either a tomato clown or ocellaris clown and a purple firefish or maybe a goby.
> still thinking about it thought, but a clown will definately be my first choice, I love these fish.


For a Clownfish in a 20 gallon tank, you will want an Ocellaris. The Tomato will become much more aggressive. Look for a tank raised Ocellaris. It will cost you are few dollars more, but the fish will be much more hardy and easy to care for. Plus, you won't be taking a fish from the ocean.

A Purple Firefish is an option, but these fish are usually kept in pairs and often become stressed when kept alone. 

"Goby" is a rather broad term. If you are referring to a Mandarine Goby, beware that these fish are extremely difficult to keep and almost impossible to keep in aquariums under 75 gallons. They have such a huge demand for copepods and amphipods in their diet that aquariums under 75 gallons simply do not have a large enough population for the fish to eat well. On the flip side, a Watchman. Wheelers, Candycane, or Diamond Goby would be a great option.

Another great choice for you would be a Royal Gramma. These are interesting little fish and generally easy to keep.


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## terryap

I was also thinking about the royal gramma, I was not thinking about the mandarin, I have read how difficult they are to keep, I was think of more the citrus clown goby, and yes definately tank bred, I have been doing some reading and have read they are much hardier and disease resistant, but I did not know the firefish are usually kept in pairs, I will cross this off my list, I also like the Cardinal fish, the black and white one looks interseting as well, but my favorite is the wartskin angler, I love this fish!!!! But I know I can't get it 
maybe in a few years, thanks again for all your knowledge you have been a great help.
another question, are crabs and peppermint shrimp compatible ?


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## terryap

Any info on a scooter blennie ?


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## Pasfur

terryap said:


> Any info on a scooter blennie ?


Not for a 20 gallon thank. These fish are every bit as difficult as the Mandarine Goby, for the exact same reasons. Instead, look at the Sailfin Blenny (aka Jeweled Rock Skipper) as an alternative. The colors are similar and it is a much easier fish to keep.


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## terryap

You are right, I have done alot more reading up on the scooter blenny, I think I will opt for the sailfin blenny,another question, last year we went to cuba, and my kids collected some I believe broken off white coral from the beach, very porous, would this be ok to add to the tank ?

thanks !!


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## terryap

I'm letting it soak in saltwater for now


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## Pasfur

terryap said:


> You are right, I have done alot more reading up on the scooter blenny, I think I will opt for the sailfin blenny,another question, last year we went to cuba, and my kids collected some I believe broken off white coral from the beach, very porous, would this be ok to add to the tank ?
> 
> thanks !!


I do not know the answer to this. Jon? Steve?


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## terryap

It sort of looks like white live rock if that helps, and it looks as though things may have been alive on it, if that helps.

Thanks


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## terryap

Another question...can crushed coral and live sand be mixed together for a substrate? 
I've also added a fish a couple of days ago, I know you mentioned the tomato clown can become aggresive as it matures, but I had to have it, I love them, it is about 1'1/2, I also added 5 red legged hermit crabs, tests are all clear, and fish seems to be healthy, was shy for the first 2 days.....not anymore, I am thinking of making it the only fish in the aquarium and maybe adding a couple of mushrooms, and a blood shrimp, would this be ok for the 20 gallon? I don't want to overload the tank......

thanks


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## Pasfur

I think it would be perfect to leave the Tomato Clown as the only fish. Not only is it territorial, but they grow larger than the Ocellaris and require more space. 

As for mixing crushed coral with live sand, not a problem at face value. First, lets review this situation. How do you plan to go about mixing crushed coral into an existing aquarium? There will be a tremendous amount of cloudiness, and possible die off of existing bacteria in the live sand. Your best option is to add more live sand, given that the aquarium is already running.


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## terryap

the base is already crushed coral, I was thinking of adding the live sand on top to make (as you suggested) at least a 4" bed. would this work? would I add the sand in small amounts at a time? will this hurt the fish? are there any other inverts you suggest?


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## terryap

won't the live sand make dust as well?


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## Pasfur

You can add the live sand on top, and you should do so. Most live sand is rather clean and will not cloud the water nearly as much. Go for it! 

I would do a small amount at first to see how cloudy the tank gets. Then slowly spread it out.

By the way, I would err on the side of caution and use 5'' total depth. You are pushing your luck just slightly by having a larger grain size crushed coral bed beneath the live sand. The extra inch of sand is added "insurance" so to speak. 6'' would be even better.


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## terryap

I'm off to the lfs shortly and am hoping to see it on sale......not likely, will buy as much as I can afford this week


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## Pasfur

I'm telling you, check out marcorocks.com. You can order rock and sand at dirt low prices.


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## studman50

i just saw that website on your build thread and it said shipping was only $10 for my area of Florida, but then at the bottom said something about flat rate?? how much was your shipping?


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## terryap

Great site, and they deliver to Canada. no live sand though?


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## Pasfur

I wouldn't be worried about "live" sand. The sand bed will quickly populate and become live in a few short months. If cost is a serious issue, i'd rather see you get everything in place immediately and let this tank start to mature.


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## terryap

it says shipping/handling N/A ? strange, maybe when I place an acutal order it will show?
I placed an order, but before you enter your credit card number the total shows, and no shipping or handling


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## terryap

not too much of an issue, I don't mind to spend 50$ for a bag of sand, but tonight I got the biggest discount of all...OUT OF STOCK.....LOL, guess I'll have to venture out this weekend again, I did pickup a mushroom along the way...


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## terryap

May also take a drive out to Big Al's this weekend and see what they have going on


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## terryap

by the way are 5 red legged hermit crabs enough, I have heard I should have 10 ?


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## terryap

still waiting to see if anyone knows about that porous rock from cuba....anyone?


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## terryap

I am also feeding brine shrimp, what else should I add to the diet??

thanks


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## Pasfur

I think 5 hermits are plenty for a 20 gallon. In fact, depending on the tank, you many only want 2 or 3 for now. Most hermits slowly starve to death because of overstocking.

When it comes to diet, you should be rotating 4 or 5 different foods. Brine is not really a healthy diet, but it is great for triggering a feeding response in difficult to feed fish. I personally feed Formula One and Formula Two pellets by Ocean Nutrition, 2 different flake foods, and several different frozen foods, including Angel Formula.


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## terryap

angel formula to a clown? what about mysis shrimp, is this the same as brine?


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## Arkamaic

Two different shrimp I believe. As Pasfur mentioned, formula two is what I'm gonna start using tonight. Got some today, I feed my fish frozen mysis, the formula 2, squid, and a little seaweed. The seaweed usually being defaulted to all the snails and crabs.


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## terryap

Will check it out this weekend, as mentioned I only plan on having the one clown, the crabs, maybe a cleaner shrimp and a couple of mushrooms, I will definately buy the seaweed, not sure if I have seen squid though, and will have to look for the pellets, any knowledge on the porous white rock from cuba ? I'd really like to put it in the tank, but am holding off until I know it's safe


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## Pasfur

On the rock from Cuba issue...

I suggest that you mix up a batch of saltwater and place the rock inside. Add a powerhead or air stone for circulation. Wait a few days and then test for ammonia, nitrite, and pH. If all 3 of these levels have not changed, then add a couple small hermit crabs. Again, wait a few days, and see how the crabs are doing. Again, test for ammonia, nitirite, and pH. If everything is still going well, then you are probably fine to add the rock.


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## terryap

Good idea, cuz it smells kind of fishy


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## terryap

Going to get a light:

Current Nova Extreme T5 Aquarium Light 

Two 24 Watt SlimPaq 10K T5 HO
Two 24 watt 460nm Actinic Blue T5 HO
Dimensions: 24" x 8" x 2.5"
96 Watts/.84 Amps
Mounting legs
Performance driven electronic ballasts. Independent control over 10K and Actinic lamps.

This is strong enough for corals, right?


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## Pasfur

Yes, this light should be fine for most corals you will be keeping. You will need to avoid some of the more high-light demanding corals, such as Clams and Acropora colonies, but for the most past you should be fine.


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## terryap

picked up the light second hand, in great shape, like new! what are the 2 tiny led lights, are these moon lights? they are always on if plugged in, the others work off switches


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## terryap

the small led lights are blue


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## terryap

and another query, should I keep the fan running at all times (while the lights are on of course)


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## terryap

sorry, yes they are lunar lights, I just read about them


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## Pasfur

Yes, run the fans when the lights are on. This will probably happen automatically.


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## terryap

I am amazed by the difference in color WOW.....how long should I leave them on, and is there any particular order? or rotate them ? right now I have both on


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## terryap

And by the way, I did end up adding one more and the last fish, sold to me as a sailfin blenny, but after getting him home, looks more like a scooter blenny, so I am not sure what to do?
I fed them the brine shrimp and I saw him eat, I also bought a quality flake, but actually saw him eat the brine shrimp, I will soon take a picture and post it, and maybe you can confirm whether it is a sailfin or a scooter.
he has red in his tail and dorsal fin, just a little....will he die if he is infact a scooter???


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## terryap

I also bought a peppermint shrimp, and after getting him home and researching, I am pretty sure it is a camel shrimp, what is the difference


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## Pasfur

If this fish is in fact a Scooter Blenny, then you need to return the fish to the LFS. Without a doubt, the Scooter will die of starvation in your tank, EVEN IF IT IS EATING WELL.

Peppermint Shrimp are generally reef safe. Camel Shrimp will sometimes nip at corals. Look, this situation is unacceptable. You simply can not do business with an LFS that does not know what livestock they are offering to you. This does not live up to any reasonable level of expected service.


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## terryap

I'm going to stick to Big Al's (soon to be known as Aquatica here in Quebec), the staff there seem to have more experience, it is further but will be worth the trip, how do I post a picture on here??


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## terryap

any good coral suggestions? easy ones ?
my water levels are great


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## terryap

so I have a green stripe mushroom, something strange happened, you know how mushrooms are lying flat on the rocks? well a couple of days later, one of them looked like it was standing up, I saw the see through base, it went back down, and looks a little bigger, but why the stand up??
is this normal?????


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## zaitmi

Go for soft corals i have heard they r easy ones to start with.


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## Pasfur

To post a picture, you need to click on the blue button "Add New Post". You can not post a picture in the "Quick Reply" box. After you click on "Add New Post" there is an icon for attachments. It is very easy, so I don't think you will have any issues.

For beginning level corals, there are a handful that are extremely easy provided you keep algae under control. Green Star Polyps, Yellow Polyps, Mushrooms, and Leathers are extremely easy. This includes most variations of Leathers, such as Toadstools and Colt corals. (Green and Yellow Leathers do not go on this list.) Realize that the biggest difficulty with these easy reef systems is keeping the temperature below 80F, and keeping algae from spreading so fast that it kills the coral colonies.


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## terryap

ok, I have a bit of brown algae, how do I get rid of it?


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## Pasfur

terryap said:


> ok, I have a bit of brown algae, how do I get rid of it?


Right on schedule. This is a diatom algae that occurs in all new aquariums. This will get far worse before it goes away, and usually lasts from about 3 weeks in total. In fact, the receding of the diatom bloom is a good sign of a tanks maturity. 

I know most discussions focus on the cycling process, but the cycle is actually not very important in marine aquarium keeping. We take it for granted, so to speak, but it does not really give us any information that is helpful. When I discuss an aquarium being "mature", I am looking for a few things.

1) the diatom bloom has come and gone.
2) coraline algae is beginning to cover the rocks and glass.
3) Nitrate has reached its peak and began to fall. Yes, NitrAte.
4) Your glass and sand show an abundant supply of copepods and amphipods. This becomes very visible when you clean the glass, because these little critters and wiped off into the water column, and your fish love the snack!
5) your alkalinity and calcium test results have become somewhat predictable, and your dosing routine has become standard, with little variation.

These are all signs that your system is mature and your tank is ready to successfully keep all varieties of fish, invert, and coral.


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## terryap

*A couple of pics, sorry for the quality, taken with my cell phone*

























































just one fish and a couple of small mushrooms, 4 hermit crabs and a camel shrimp, poor quality photos due to being taken with the cell phone, dog ate my memory card for my camera...


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## terryap

*A Few more pics with the brown algae*

















































A couple more taken with the cell phone


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## terryap

Any advice or opinions???


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## Pasfur

Looking good. By the way, I notice that you have a sponge prefilter on the power head skimmer intake. Have you tried this without the sponge? The sponge will trap organic particulate, processing it biologically, dramatically reducing the effectiveness of the skimmer. In fact, the sponge is such a bad idea that it almost negates the benefits of the skimmer.

You may have to rig some sort of pre filter to prevent fish from becoming drawn towards the empty power head intake. I am picturing some sort of PVC with holes drilled in it, wrapped with netting.


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## terryap

Thanks again, you are great ! I'll have to send you a fish for Xmas

the sponge came with the seaclone and was part of the instructions, I just followed them, didn't know it can run without it, if you think it would be more effective, I will definately remove it, one less thing to clean for me, so no complaints there.....
not sure what you mean about the power heads though 
do you mean just some sort of pvc to cover the large opening? and then holes for the air to blow through, this I know, but why the net ?


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## terryap

the sreened part at the bottom is the intake on the power head, the larger part at the top with the empty hole, blows out the current, just not sure why the fish would be drawn to it, it is a pretty strong current coming from it ?


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## Pasfur

terryap said:


> the sreened part at the bottom is the intake on the power head, the larger part at the top with the empty hole, blows out the current, just not sure why the fish would be drawn to it, it is a pretty strong current coming from it ?


If there is already a screen covering the intake, then you are set. I was thinking when you removed the sponge that there would be an exposed opening.


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## terryap

no it's just a tube attached to the powerhead, so that will be my next move


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## terryap

*Thinkng of buying this used aquarium*

someone is selling the following aquarium for around 150

dims are 36x36x56 high they mention 60 gallon, does this sound right?

looks like it needs a good cleaning, but the size and price seem pretty good:

let me know what you think


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## Pasfur

At face value this does not look like a good deal. What equipment is included?


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## terryap

just the lighting.....but in canada, things are very expensive, this szie aquarium new with just the lighting is about 400$$, I havent' found anything cheaper where they have included any salt water equipment...
cheapest was 2100.00 plus tax for 65 gallon salt water setup,.........no live rock included...


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## terryap

i was thinking of buying this aquarium and then in about a month get a decent protein skimmer...berlin, and then adding the live rock, but we are talking over a 2 month span.
what do you think?


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## terryap

Trust me, in Canada, they take us for a ride........nothing is cheap, about 25 to 30% more than the USA, I may take a ride out to plattsburg and go to petco....is this a reputible place?


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## mullinsd2

dont buy that.. what lighting?


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## terryap

they don't mention the lighting, so I am guessing regular fluorescent


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## terryap

Ok I won't buy this tank, I contacted another respectable LFS, they have an 80 gallon with stand and regular fluoroscent for 400$. I think I will be buying it, going to put a deposit on it this week.
I will then add the live rock, I will transfer what I have from my 20 gallon, ( about 30 lbs) and add at least another 50 -60 lbs, but probably over a 3 week span, live rock from this LFS is fully cured.

I will also buy a skimmer, need your imput on 2 I am thinking of:

*AquaC* Remora Protein *Skimmer*

or 

Red Sea *Berlin* X2 Protein *Skimmers*

Also need your thoughts and opinions, I will keep the 20 gallon as a quarantine tank, I have to go bigger, I love it, and have an itch.......,

Thanks to let me know !!


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## terryap

oh and any thoughts on frog spawn coral ??


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## Pasfur

You skimmer choice is very easy. The Red Sea Berlin is a better skimmer, period. 

Frogspawn are very difficult corals to keep. I'd suggest you look at a Hammer Coral as a nice alternative.


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## terryap

ok will google it, planning on picking one up later this week, what about leather corals? I've read these are fairly hardy as well?


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## Pasfur

Leathers are generally hardy. Keep in mind, they have a very high growth rate and need considerable space over the long term. The Green Leather in my 54 reef is starting to overrun the aquarium, but it is a beautiful coral so I welcome the growth.

I would highly recommend that you purchase Amazon.com: Aquarium Corals: Selection, Husbandry, and Natural History (0681290087485): Eric H. Borneman, J. E. N. Veron: Books by Eric Borneman.


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## terryap

will add the book to my purchase list, along with a good marine fish book, mind you live aquaria has great information, do you have any pictures of your leather coral to share? I'd like to see ?


PS levels: ammonia = 0, nitrite = 0 and nitrate = 5 ppm

I still haven't bought a calcium or alkalinity test yet, but will come

Fish seems to be doing extremeley well, darts to the front when he sees me....mushroom also seems to be doing well, one thing, when the lights are off the mushroom shrinks, and when the light is on, it expands, is this normal?


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## terryap

oh, and brown algae seems to have pretty well dissapeared....strange, didn't last very long, just a bit left on the glass that I have to scrub, but gone everywhere else.
and more purple coraline on the live rock seems to have set in


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## terryap

any replies to the mushrooms shrinking and growing?


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## Pasfur

terryap said:


> any replies to the mushrooms shrinking and growing?


That is normal. Overall it sounds like your system is maturing exactly as I would have expected. Which is a great sign! 

You can see some pictures of my Green Leather here:
http://www.fishforum.com/saltwater-fish-pictures-videos/pasfurs-58-bowfront-build-21969/page3/

I need to post some new pics, because the Leather is now the size of a basketball. It has 4 separate stems, each of which have a trunk as wide as my arm. It reaches the surface of the tank in height and spread past the Yellow Polyp.


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## terryap

wow absolutely beautiful !! is the green grass like coral polyp? because it is also beatiful, and love the clown!!
what size tank is that? if you don't mind me asking, looks like a jebo style tank, which I love

ps glad it is a great sign, I am checking everything almost every night, I don't have an RO system for water, but I buy it from the local grocer, hope this is acceptable....I did not do this the first time around, and wondering if that is why everything died off ??


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## Pasfur

Jebo style? This is a new term to me. Explain.


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## terryap

sorry, guess it is a quebec thing......rounded front glass style


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## Pasfur

Yes, a 54 bowfront. And yes, that is a green star polyp.


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## terryap

love it, I am also looking at a used 60 gallon bowfront, going for 375$$ negotiable....or the 80 gallon mentioned in the earlier post.
Love the polyps, they are my favorite, the star polyp in particular....I will be going tomorrow or Thursday night for a coral, any last words of advice?? or suggestions on what would look nice and is hardy??

thanks !


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## terryap

*more pics*

thought I would add a few more pics to show the color on the live rock, as you will see, the clown fish followed where ever I took the picture.....again not great quality, taken with cell phone


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## Pasfur

I would suggest you start with Yellow Polyps or Green Star Polyps. They add some color and spread quickly. Plus, they are extremely durable. Mushrooms, leathers, and button polyps are also rather simple.


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## terryap

just found these on kijiji, someone is selling them privately, can you give me info please, prices are very good:

*I have few nice zoanthid polyps 5-10-15$ for sale or trade to another frags that I don't have, also I have frags of pulsing silverbranch Xenia (5$) , *

please let me know if these are also fairly easy to keep, Im going there after work tomorrow night......

Thanks


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## Pasfur

I would do the Zoanthids, but not the Xenia. Your aquarium is not big enough for Xenia. They spread like a weed.


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## terryap

I think I will take your advice and start with the star polyps for now, Kellinsdale gave alot of great advice in the coral reef section.

did not get a chance to go tonight, horrible weather.....snow already, this early in the year.....way too much traffic.
but will go between tomorrow and the weekend and post pics.

question for you, approximately how much are corals in the U.S. ?


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## terryap

*Coral pics, need help to id please*

Here they are......


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## terryap

*More pics for identification*

Here goes:


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## terryap

*Learned alot in the past 2 hours *

Well, I have learned alot in the past two hours, I have identified the one one that has tong tentacles to APTAISIA, so what I have done and am not happy about it.....removed it from my tank immediately and broke off 2 tiny pieces to salvage what I could of the polyps, but not much of them left sadly 
but did not want to risk an infestation of aptaisia.....very upset about this, it was a nice piece of live rock with alot of polyps, but aptaisia growing right inbetween the polyps.

my question is now, is there any way to salvage the live rock once the aptaisia dies off?
right now it is sitting in a bucket.

to all the new saltwater hobbiests, let this be a lesson to ALWAYS, check and make sure you know what you are buying, save yourself some dissapointment.

one other change I have made, I traded my one and only tomato clown, for 2 baby tank bred perc clowns, and have put a deposit on a new 65 gallon tank, which I should have in a couple of weeks, but will set up over a few months.....


----------



## terryap

Have finally picked up a calcium test, results are 400
is this allright?


----------



## terryap

I am pretty sure the calcium level has to be raised, unfortunately I do not have an alkalinity test yet, on the list for this week....my question is will this kill the fish? the calcium level?

Another question, as mentioned I traded my tomato clown for 2 baby (tiny tank bred perc clowns, they are way smaller than the tomato clown, and he wasn't that big), at the moment the 2 clowns are constantly sticking together.
I have read that when they are this young they are all males, and chances are if you have a pair, one will change to female? is this true??
I know the tank is only 20 G, but I plan to have the 65 G I just put a down payment on, up and running in the next couple of months (in which I will have more questions about transferring fish and live rock)

Please let me know, Thanks


----------



## Pasfur

Calcium is sort of a "leading indicator" of what is going to happen. This is why it is such a valuable test. It allows you to take action before the problem occurs, preventing all sorts of complications. Calcium itself is not a toxin to the fish, so the actual calcium level of 400ppm will not "kill" the fish. But it does tell you things about your water that could eventually cause problems.

We know that calcium ions are being utilized by the buffer system, in the form of calcium carbonate. Calcium levels above 360 ppm are considered normal. We generally aim for 400ppm - 460ppm as an ideal point. At 400ppm, you have just hit the low end of the spectrum, so adding a Calcium supplement would be correct.


----------



## terryap

thanks Pasfur, will add to the "buy list" this week, what about the clown fish query?
any advice?
thanks


----------



## Pasfur

terryap said:


> at the moment the 2 clowns are constantly sticking together.
> I have read that when they are this young they are all males, and chances are if you have a pair, one will change to female? is this true??



Its true.


----------



## terryap

will they survive until I get my 65 G up and running?
I love them!!! but they are small, but very healthy appetite


----------



## Pasfur

I think they should be fine. Looking forward to this 65 gallon tank!


----------



## terryap

thanks me too !!! Very excited, don't worry I will ask you many, many questions!!! and post pics, But I do want to transfer some of the live rock from my 20 gallon to the new tank once I have it, is there a minimum amount of live rock i should leave in the 20 gallon as a QT?? right now I have about 32-33 Lbs of cured liverock, I plan on have about 70-75 lbs in the 65 gallon.....once again CAN'T WAIT!!!!, I should have the aquarium in about 2 weeks, maybe sooner......


----------



## Pasfur

You won't want live rock in the Q tank, because you need to be able to medicate. Believe it or not, you will run that Q tank very similar to a freshwater system, using a biological filter. The reason is simple. You will be changing large amounts of water on a frequent basis in the Q and long term buildup of nitrates is not possible. Also, short term accumulation of organic wastes will be minimal due to the extremely low fish load. Most people even run their Q tanks bare-bottom, so that medication is not absorbed by the calcium based substrate.


----------



## terryap

well, that's good news for me....not as much liverock to buy as I thought, I already have a freshwater filter, came with the tank when I bought it...
now just shopping around for a protein skimmer, as mentioned I am thinking about giong with the berlin, but have also read some pretty good reviews about the octopus skimmer , and alot less money, have you heard of it? it's a HOB model


----------



## Pasfur

You don't want the Octopus Skimmer for a 65 gallon tank. In my opinion, it would be really pushing the limits of this hang on skimmer. I would be very comfortable on a 38 gallon tank, but not a 65. I use a very similar skimmer on my 38 and have used it on a 55 gallon in the past without the quality results I would be looking for.

Remember, the skimmer is the most important purchase! Overbuy!!!!


----------



## terryap

ok, I will, but besides the Berlin, what others are decent that you would consider? I would prefer a HOB model....Thanks


----------



## Pasfur

Hang on skimmers are tough to find good quality. You pay a premium for a high quality hang on. For the price, I would look at this:
Super Skimmer with Needle Wheel - Up to 125 Gallon | Venturi Models | Protein Skimmers | Aquarium - ThatPetPlace.com


----------



## terryap

The price is cheap, the berlin skimmer here is about 300 $, 
Is this the same one you just showed me?? check out the price difference:









*Coralife Super Skimmer-Needle Wheel-125 Gallon* *$249.99*


----------



## terryap

Here is the one I was thinking of, the price is 320$$:









*Red Sea Berlin X2 Venturi Protein Skimmer*


----------



## Pasfur

Yep, those are the skimmers. I think the Berlin X2 is far better. You could use it on a larger tank at a later date, perhaps a 125. The Coralife is really maxed out at a 75 gallon, in my humble opinion.


----------



## terryap

ok, I will dish out extra cash, and go for the berlin, ouch!
another question, once I get the 65 gallon, can I set it up with live rock a couple of power heads, and wait about 2 weeks for the skimmer? what is your opinion? no way I can but it all at once


----------



## terryap

another question, when I get the 65 running, I REALLY want a blue tang, will I be able to put this in the tank with the 2 clowns ?
I've wanted a blue tang for a long time, I also love the coral beauty and flame angel, but blue tang is my #1


----------



## Pasfur

There is no problem at all waiting a couple week to get the skimmer running. I probably waited 2 months or so on my 180 because the sump was still being plumbed.

Personally, I would not put a Blue Tang in a 65. However, Austin has successfully kept a Blue Tang in his 75 gallon. There are a lot of factors involved in these type of discussions, so provided that you do not have another Tang in the tank and you have pristine water quality, then you may be fine. I think anything short of a 6 foot long tank is pushing it for Tangs, with the exception of the Zebrasoma genus.


----------



## terryap

ok, well, I will defintely think about it a little more then and wait a while, I am in no rush to cram fish into it, even at 65 gallon, I would prefer over 100 gallon, but I do have to go with what the pocket book will allow.
as mentioned, for me anyways, the coral beauty and flame angel would also please my eye if I don't get a blue tang.
can you elaborate on Zebrasoma genus, what are the species names at the LFS??
sorry but I googled this and a ton of fish came up ? looked like the sailfin tang


----------



## Pasfur

By definition, all Zebrasoma are "sailfins". The common names are Yellow Tang, Scopas Tang, Sailfin Tang, etc. They all have the same basic body shape, and are excellent hair algae grazers.

The Blue Tang is in a genus of its own, the Paracanthurus. However, for all practical purposes in an aquarium you can consider it to be an Acanthurus genus, which includes the Clown Tang, Powder Brown, Powder Blue, Convict, etc. Again, these all have the same body shape. Juvenile Acanthurus can be mistaken for a Zebrasoma, so be sure to use caution. These Acanthurus grow much larger and are more difficult to keep. MUCH more difficult, with the exception of the Blue Hippo Tang we are discussing, which is pretty easy.

Some members of the Ctenochaetus genus could be kept in a 65 gallon tank, such as the Kohl Tang. But this genus as a whole is less common and more expensive. 

Whatever you do, in a 65 gallon tank you only want to keep 1 Tang.


----------



## terryap

ok great thanks for the definition, I would only keep one tang plus my 2 clowns, and maybe one other medium sized fish, but I will do much more reading on species... am also looing at:


Bicolor Angelfish​

I love this one as well


----------



## terryap

also love this one: 


Starry Blenny​


----------



## Pasfur

I love the BiColor also, but this fish is more commonly found in garbage cans and in toilet bowls. If you try one, be sure to purchase only a fish collected from Fiji, if you want any chance at all of success.

By the way, I would introduce the Tang before any Centropyge angel. The angel is likely to become dominant, and you don't want a Blue Tang being picked on when newly introduced. They have a hard enough time settling into a new environment, without being chased around.


----------



## terryap

Will the clowns bother a tang? or are they still too small?


----------



## Pasfur

The Clowns and the Tang will be fine together. No issues at all. The only real issues you will have with Tang compatibility are when mixed with other Tangs, or with Centropyge Angelfish.


----------



## terryap

ok so if I opt for the tang, no angelfish...and will definately add the sailfin blenny or starry blenny to the list, or maybe a royal gramma, I like these too...can't wait to start this project.
PS I have a bit of green algae how do I control it? there is not much yet, but I don't want it to get it out of control.......


----------



## willieturnip

terryap said:


> You are right, I have done alot more reading up on the scooter blenny, I think I will opt for the sailfin blenny,another question, last year we went to cuba, and my kids collected some I believe broken off white coral from the beach, very porous, would this be ok to add to the tank ?
> 
> thanks !!


No idea if anyone answered this, but it's totally fine to add it. It has assumably been dead for a long time, so there is no chance of it containing any life that you don't want i the tank.

Give it a good soak before you put it in the tank.

It should be considered as dry rock for all intensive purposes.


----------



## terryap

Great thanks for the info, was getting ready to chuck it, will add it in my new setup once I get the new tank.


----------



## terryap

any suggestions on control for the green algae, I am thinking of picking up some snails?
what are your recommendations??


----------



## wake49

What kind of water are you using? Tap water or RO/Di water? 

Snails are a good pickup. Cerith, Turbo and Nassarius snails are good additions to a reef tank. Don't get too many Ceriths and Turbos, as after the algae is gone, they will starve...

Also, what do you have for flow in your tank? Make sure that your powerheads are blowing AT your rocks, so no detritus builds up on them. When I do water changes, I put the siphon directly on the rocks to disturd any detritus and suck it through the tube.


----------



## terryap

Thanks, buying RO water from the local supermarket at the moment......I have 2 power heads, but didn't know I should be pointing them at the rocks, I will definately move them tonight and pickup a couple of snails, how many do you reccomend for a 20 gallon ?


----------



## Pasfur

I would recommend 3 or 4 snails maximum for a 20 gallon tank. Most people use way to many snails and they die from starvation.


----------



## terryap

Ok good, they have a sail, 3 snails for 18$ so I will go with this.....also went down to LFS to make another deposit on the 65 gallon, can't wait, should have it within the next 2 weeks....am really excited, now I am searching for a deal on a great skimmer, before buying I will post on here for your opinion.
by the way, will 176 w of lighting be enough ?? I plan on using the nova extreme I have now 96 W total , plus the one I bought to go with the new tank 80W ( also high output.
Please let me know.....
and what do you recommend for a sand bed, all sand? or mixed crush coral and sand? 4-6 inches deep right?
sorry I am getting very excited !!!!


----------



## terryap

What are your thoughts on this, found it on Ebay, says it is good for upto 135 gallons:

*REEF OCTOPUS DUAL HANG ON THE BACK PROTEIN SKIMMER 135G*


----------



## terryap

oh, and one more point, 
I am one somewhat of a budget, So a 400-500 skimmer is out of the question, if you can think of a decent skimmer reasonably priced, that would be great, I would love the berlin, but with Tax I am looking at about 350, I am more in the 200-250 range....max

thanks


----------



## Pasfur

I think the Nova Extreme will be fine.

You want 4''-6'' of sand. Don't mix it with crushed coral.

Please give the link to the octopus skimmer. I searched but could not find this exact model. The 90 gallon model is junk. The 150 gallon model looks very nice. I couldn't find one rated for a 135.


----------



## terryap

don't know if this link will work, it's on EBAY:

REEF OCTOPUS DUAL HANG ON THE BACK PROTEIN SKIMMER 135G


Let me know what you think ?


----------



## terryap

here is another link just in case:

Reef Octopus Hang on Back Protein Skimmer DBH-300


----------



## Pasfur

No, you don't want the Octopus 135. I have nearly the same unit on my 38 and would never consider it for a 65 gallon tank.


----------



## terryap

what is the octopus for 150 G model that you are talking aobut? I can't find it, can you send me a link please?


----------



## Pasfur

NIB OCTOPUS BH-800S HOB PROTEIN SKIMMER W/ SICCE PUMP - eBay (item 190339015205 end time Oct-31-09 22:41:51 PDT)

Sorry, not the 150. I had my model confused. But this one above looks very cool.


----------



## terryap

what about the original one you mentioned:

Super Skimmer with Needle Wheel - Up to 125 Gallon | Venturi Models | Protein Skimmers | Aquarium - ThatPetPlace.com


----------



## Pasfur

The Coralife Super Skimmer is tried and tested. It is reliable, but not fantastic. Rated at a 125 it is a joke. For a 65 gallon, it would easily get the job done.


----------



## terryap

so this would be an "ok" choice to do a decent job then? in the meantime, If I do find a deal on a berlin, I will go for that one instead, I've still got 2 weeks to find a deal, I keep searching online and on ebay, lots of great things on ebay


----------



## terryap

Pasfur said:


> NIB OCTOPUS BH-800S HOB PROTEIN SKIMMER W/ SICCE PUMP - eBay (item 190339015205 end time Oct-31-09 22:41:51 PDT)
> 
> Sorry, not the 150. I had my model confused. But this one above looks very cool.


 
I missed this post of yours, so you think this one looks good? I will send them a message on ebay to ask about shipping to Canada.


----------



## Pasfur

terryap said:


> I missed this post of yours, so you think this one looks good? I will send them a message on ebay to ask about shipping to Canada.


A big yes. I have never seen this unit performing, but there are design features that make me think it will outperform the coralife. The first is the surface skimmer box, which removes organic proteins from the water surface, where concentrations are greatest. This results in a better foam. The next is the quality of the venturi air injection system, which should result in finer bubbles than the coralife model.


----------



## terryap

ok I have sent a message to 2 people on ebay, i found 2 of these skimmers, are there any other ones you saw on ebay that seem decent?


----------



## terryap

any opinion on this one, the remora pro is the one I am looking at, I have read some pretty good reviews online:

*Remora™ and Remora Pro™ *
These innovative hang-on-tank skimmers install in seconds and make high performance foam fractionation available to those with sumpless systems. Unlike traditional H.O.T. models, the Remora is a non-venturi skimmer that benefits from the powerful and patented Spray Injection System.The new and improved Remora skimmers come with an injector clean-out plug, a cleaning brush, and a thick o-ring for collection cup placement. 
*
Pump (Included)
*Magdrive 3 pump included - Remora
Mag Drive 3 - Remora Pro
• Hang on Tank 
• Glass or Acrylic Aquariums 
• Pump included
• No plumbing required
• Large collection cup - will not overflow
• Patented Spray Injection System (U.S. Patent # 6,436,295)
• "Bulletproof" Construction and Craftmanship
• Super-Slim design 
• Optional Surface Prefilter


----------



## Pasfur

The Remora skimmers have a great reputation. I have seen them in action and they appear to produce a nice quality foam. I have never used one personally and I have not seen the interior of the design, so it is difficult to comment. I really despise products that are stained black so that you can not visibly see the performance at a glance. It is just a ridiculous concept and I could rant all day about how angry it makes me. For this reason alone, I will never purchase a Remora skimmer. However, it would probably get the job done, based on reputation.


----------



## terryap

ok, thanks for the input, I have a few on the list to think about now. I am going to try and get the tank this week, if not next week at the latest.
Once I transfer the liverock and add more cured liverock ( I plan on having about 75 lbs total) (and sand of course)
how long would you think I should run the tank before transferring my livestock if all tests run clear?

Thanks


----------



## Pasfur

I try not to put a time line on it. Every tank matures differently, so just aim for between 2 and 10 weeks. Here is what we are watching for:
1) ammonia and nitrite reading of zero, obviously.
2) Nitrate starting to FALL, approaching zero.
3) alkalinity and calcium levels becoming predictable and dosing routine predictable.
4) the diatom bloom having passed, and coraline algae growth beginning to take its place.
5) copepods, amphipods, and other micro life visible to the naked eye on your glass and in your sand. We really want to see a thriving population.

These are signs of maturity, and if you allow the aquarium to mature to this point before adding much in the way of fish, long term success will be easy to achieve.


----------



## terryap

ok, I will definately wait, in the meantime, I can still enjoy my 20 gallon until I transfer everything, in the meantime, I believe I have another small nasty aptaisia growing in the rock where my mushrooms are, does Aptaisia X work??


----------



## Pasfur

Yes, Aptasia X works well.


----------



## terryap

what a pain they are, is this going to be a lifelong problem??? this time it's only one from what I can see, I hope there aren't many more to follow.....


----------



## Pasfur

Generally, once they are eliminated from your tank you will probably not have problems again.


----------



## terryap

ok, stupid question for the day.....

When making water changes and scrubbing down the walls of the tank, obviously the water becomes cloudy....especially since I have a bit of green algae, my question is if the cloudy water is dangerous for the fish...with all the particles floaiting in the water?


----------



## Pasfur

Nothing to worry about. It is an interesting question, and naturally makes me wonder what exactly you are looking at. I realize that small particulates will float in the water when you scrape your algae, but I wouldn't expect it to be so much that you might worry about it. 

When you do water changes, are you using a gravel vac and siphoning the sand? In a marine system, you should not be doing this, so hopefully your answer is no! In fact, the best water change would occur from the actual surface of the water, with the syphon slightly angled upward to suck surface scum and proteins off the surface of the water.


----------



## terryap

Oh, and I have removed the sponge from the seaclone with today's water change and cleaning as you recommended.


----------



## Pasfur

If microbubbles enter the aquarium, you can use the sponge... just be sure to clean it almost every day.


----------



## terryap

to be honest, I have been using a container, a juice one, to remove the water and always from the top, I have a vac model hose, but have not used it yet, I haven't found any need to....gavel is not that dirty....I remove from the top always.
Hope this is ok?


----------



## terryap

ya ton of micro bubbles, was hoping they would go away, I will put the sponge back on..... question is, it's a pain in the but to remove it, can I clean it daily in the tank??


----------



## Pasfur

You are doing fine.

Hey Terry Ann, I am going to get in the chat room for a minute. We are almost talking "live", so jump into chat if you have some questions. (it is probably empty)


----------



## Pasfur

Don't clean it in the tank. Remind me... is this FOWLR or reef? If it is FOWLR then you can cut back to a couple times weekly cleaning.


----------



## terryap

ok so I put the sponge back on the seaclone, and still a ton of micro bubbles.....I don't remember this happening the last time I cleaned it ??


----------



## terryap

*tang*

Is this the Kohl tang you were talking about:









looks like an expensive fish!! Love it though, this would be ok in a 65 g ?


----------



## Pasfur

Yes, that is a Kohl Tang. And it is one of the least expensive fish in the hobby! It is also the most passive Tang, and a great grazer of ugly hair algae. In my opinion, this is the best Tang for aquariums under 75 gallons.


----------



## terryap

hope I can find one, I don't recall ever seeing one? are they easily available?


----------



## Pasfur

In my neck of the woods they are a staple, as common as the Yellow Tang.


----------



## terryap

Guess I will have to search, their is a place called reef solutions about a 35-40 min drive, my guess is if anyone is carrying this tang it would be them. Most common here from what I've seen is the yellow tang.

Refresh my memory again, what about the purple firefish?


----------



## Pasfur

The purple firefish is an escape artist. Easy to keep, but that fish will find the smallest opening and jump out of the tank.


----------



## terryap

well I won't take any chances then, I much prefer the kohl tang or hippo tang, in your opinion, what is the max number of fish you would stock a 65G with, how many are in your 58G ?


----------



## Pasfur

terryap said:


> well I won't take any chances then, I much prefer the kohl tang or hippo tang, in your opinion, what is the max number of fish you would stock a 65G with, how many are in your 58G ?


This question has no answer. It all depends on the behavior of the fish you select. My 54 reef has a Coral Beauty Angel, Six Line Wrasse, and Ocellaris Clownfish. I am adding a Sailfin Blenny (aka Lawnmower Blenny), which is currently in quarantine. I had a Yellow Clown Goby which was chased relentlessly by the Six Line Wrasse and eventually jumped out of the tank. So, I have been very cautious. Also, the tank just looks great as is, so I haven't really wanted more fish.

If your primary fish are a Lemon Peel Angel (or other Centropyge species) and a Kohl Tang, then I would think you have plenty of room for 3 or 4 other small fish, such as Blennies, Gobies, etc. It all depends on the exact fish, and to a great degree on your live rock display and how the territory is broken up.


----------



## terryap

Can I put a lemon peel along with a kohl tang? didn't think they could go together, there will also be my 2 clown fish with this, and for sure, I will be adding a sailfin blenny.
I think this would be plenty of fish, and will be planning to add more corals

does this sound like a decent stock plan?

I just picked up a hair mushroom yesterday, love this thing, really cool looking


----------



## terryap

I also like the starry blenny, so I may opt for this instead


----------



## terryap

*Pic with a little more color, still not great quality, but better*

Here it is:


----------



## Pasfur

Looks nice TerryAnn. A picture gives us so much more information. This tank looks healthy. The rock is looking good, with just a touch of diatom remaining. 

You already know this, but the substrate grain size is to large. This size easily traps detritus. Be certain to opt for a reef grade grain size on your 65 gallon, which I know you are already planning. 

You mentioned that the sponge is difficult to clean. Here is a tip. Cut a slit across the entire back side. This should allow you to simply slide it off, without disturbing the venturi tubing. You could just remove the sponge completely. 

I also notice that you are only using 1 venturi line. The powerhead you have should have 5 available air intakes. I recommend using all of them, which will add more bubbles into the skimmer chamber and produce a higher quality foam.

One more tip. If you have difficulty with micro bubbles entering your aquarium, you can cut a piece of pantie hose and tie it to the output of the skimmer. As the water flow through the pantie hose, it will break apart the micro bubbles and almost eliminate them from the aquarium. ;-)

Uhm, one more tip. On the power head you have at the far left, I notice the output is aimed directly upwards. I would aim it down to keep water circulation over the substrate strong. This will help prevent detritus accumulation. Also, point the output upwards increases splashing and salt creep eventually works its way onto the lighting fixture.


----------



## terryap

thanks for all the info, and yes power head was pointed upward temporarily as i found there was a white film at the top of the water, BUT, I plan on most definately buying new power heads, the hydor koralia model, seems to have alot more flexibility ...... also not sure what you mean by I am using only 1 venturi line on the skimmer? this is all it came with, there are no extra parts? can you please explain?

and definately looking at reef grade grain size for the new tank


----------



## terryap

oh and the powerhead at the bottom on the left is turned towards the rocks


----------



## terryap

oh...... and I love the pantyhose suggestion...LOL, would have never thought of this, makes sense!! Thanks!


----------



## terryap

there is one other venturi tubing, but it stays out of the water, it has an adjustable air intake valve on it


----------



## terryap

Ok I am losing my mind, the tubing you see is one and only, the end of it stay out of the water with the air intake valve on it, and it plugs into the pump (which is not visible due to the sponge)
so the one tube is for both water and air intake.
other than this there is no other place to attach a tube on the pump ?


----------



## Pasfur

Don't worry about it TerryAnn. Your power head probably only has 1 venturi intake. I expected to see 4 additional intakes hidden by the strainer which is covered by the sponge.

That film on the surface of your water are proteins. Do you remember the Octopus model hang on skimmer that I said would be very nice for you? It has a surface skimmer, which would skim these proteins off the surface so that your protein skimmer can remove them. In your 20 gallon, the only real solution is to do a very small water change every week or so, directing the syphon hose at an angle close to the surface, sucking the film off the surface of the water.


----------



## terryap

Thanks, what is your opinion on the Red Sea C-Skim 1200 ?


----------



## Pasfur

terryap said:


> Thanks, what is your opinion on the Red Sea C-Skim 1200 ?


This is a sump model, yes? I didn't realize this skimmer has a hang on adapter.

Can you give me a link? I will check in tonight after work.


----------



## terryap

no,not a hang on you are right, sump model, but looks amazing,wanted to know what you think of it, if it is that good, I may go for a sump, have no clue how to do it, BUT, am willing to learn and make it happen.


----------



## wake49

The Red Sea C-Skim 1200 can also be used as a freestanding, out-of-sump application. You just need a pump in the water to to pump into the skimmer, and the skimmer needs to be higher than where it is feeding back into. The outlet is gravity fed, so it will not pump back over the wall of the aquarium. 

I am a huge fan of this skimmer; I have watched a few videos of it on Youtube. I think that the neck design is very clever.


----------



## terryap

So if I understand correctly, I can use it out of a sump, but the level of the C-Skim has to be higher than my aquarium? is this right?
And yes, I love the neck wash, seems easy enough to use, and I can get it at a steal on ebay brand new


----------



## terryap

*Red sea c-skim 1200*

Another question, how much do these usually go for?? I can get on on ebay for 295 $$ plus shipping of 60
so total of 355.00, I believe they go for about 500 $ in canada
is this worth it??

seems like an excellent skimmer, can handle upto 300 Gallons, please let me know, I am still wheeling and dealing on Ebay


Ok here are my options (PS getting a bonus this week so I have decided to go BIG:

Berlin hang on skimmer: total cost: 275 $$
Eshopps hang on skimmer for 100 Gallon: total cost 185.00
Reef Octopus with surface skimmer and sicce pump for upto 135 Gallon: 240.00 total cost
Aqua C Remora Pro: 255 $ total cost
Red Sea C-Skim total cost 355.00 $$

Still looking at the coralife skimmer for 220 Gallon, not sure of total cost yet.....

As mentioned my new tank coming will be 65 Gallon, with a possible upgrade to a bigger tank in the summer.....


----------



## Pasfur

The Berlin fits your current needs, has a great reputation, and can be used as a sump or hang on unit. You can also upgrade to a 125 gallon in the future, using the Berlin as an in sump skimmer.

The Red Sea C-Skim is a better skimmer, but this only makes sense if you plan to upgrade in the very near future. 

Honestly, you won't upgrade. You will have 2 aquariums.  For this reason, I would do the Berlin now.


----------



## terryap

ok thanks for the input, BUT since you mention the C-Skim is better.......When I have the extra cash.... I tend to buy the BEST!!!!!! Will let you know which one I went for !
Hope you don't think I am crazy if I go for the C-Skim, but man.....it looks awesome !!


----------



## terryap

Hi

what is the difference between:

Red Sea Berlin X2 Turbo Protein Skimmer

and

Red Sea Berlin X2 Venturi Protein Skimmer

thanks


----------



## Pasfur

You are really stretching my memory on this. 

I am rather certain this is a correct answer....

The Turbo is Ozone compatible. The Venturi is not. Both have a hang on kit available. You do not need ozone, so the venturi model is all you need.


----------



## terryap

thanks, and by the way.....you should thank me for stretching your memory, I am keeping you young and sharp


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## terryap

Ok so with alot of thought and consideration and input, and searches, and of course best for my money....
I finally clicked on the buy it now button on EBAY and have bought a skimmer.....


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## wake49

What did you get?


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## terryap

I ended up going with the AquaC Remora Pro skimmer, read alot of great reviews, and got a great deal on ebay. figured I would save the extra cash for accessories I will need.....I should have my 65 Gallon by next week, maybe by the weekend.


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## wake49

I think that will be perfect for the 65 gallon. Did it come with a pump?


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## terryap

yes, Mag Drive 3 pump


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## terryap

*New Creature*

I just found a new creature in my aquarium wondering what it is, it is some sort of slug/snail , light browish body color, with little tentacles coming out the front, very small though, maybe half an inch.
any ideas what this is?? and if it is good or bad, or doesn't really matter??


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## Pasfur

Little tentacles? Is it a nassarius snail? Can you post a picture?


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## terryap

If I can see it again, when I turned the lights on, it went under the rocks to hide, and it is very small, but I will try to take a picture if i see it again


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## Pasfur

I saw this today and think it is a very nice design for a UV sterilizer. You should consider this as part of your aquarium budget over the next several months. Submariner UV Sterilizer - Clarifier - 9W | UV Sterilizers | UV Sterilizers | Aquarium - ThatPetPlace.com


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## terryap

will definately make it part of my budget, anything else you suggest? I am probably getting my tank today, going there after work.

thanks


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## terryap

PS I bought the tank today !!!!, going to pick it up tomorrow, will post some pics, I am thinking of mixing dry rock from reefrocks.ca with live rock, what ratio should I do??


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## Pasfur

I used about 80% dry rock, but the more live rock you use the more diversity of life you will probably see.


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## terryap

Well got my 65 gallon today, and a nice glass lid, put the lid on the sofa....and dog broke it.
I don't want to spend more money on another lid, would plexi glass work?


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## Pasfur

That sucks. You can just about use anything so long as the look is visually appealing to you and the light is not disturbed.

I has been spoiled by my brother who works at a glass shop. If you want to drive to Kentucky I will have him cut you a new lid.-)


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## terryap

yes it does suck, a real dissapointment...but I can't get mad at the dog, he didn't know....was an unfortunate accident...still pissed though...
HMMM Kentucky, LOL, with the price of gas today, don't think so...but if you and your family want to visit lovely Montreal, you can bring one by!

guess I will have to dish out another 40$$$ my bank acount is crying
or I think I'll price the plexi glass tomorrow, the lights won't burn it right? if I am correct, they don't get hot enough? is this right?


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## terryap

By the way, let me know what you think of my stock plan for my 65 gallon:

2 clowns (which I already have)
1 tang (not sure which kind yet, was thinking either kohl tang or hippo tang, I also really like the powder brown)
1 angel ( lemon peel, coral beauty or flame)
1 sailfin blenny
2 Firefish (the red ones) - I know they are jumpers, but I will have a lid, and I think they are beautiful fish

let me know what you think, or if you have any other ideas or suggestions.


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## Pasfur

terryap said:


> By the way, let me know what you think of my stock plan for my 65 gallon:
> 2 clowns (which I already have)
> 1 tang (not sure which kind yet, was thinking either kohl tang or hippo tang, I also really like the powder brown)
> 1 angel ( lemon peel, coral beauty or flame)
> 1 sailfin blenny
> 2 Firefish (the red ones) - I know they are jumpers, but I will have a lid, and I think they are beautiful fish
> let me know what you think, or if you have any other ideas or suggestions.


Looks like a good list. Naturally, I have some opinions. 8)

The Power Brown Tang is an absolute no. If you buy this fish, just don't tell me about it because I will probably throw my computer across the room and declare the entire hobby lost forever. Of all the fish most regularly seen at the LFS, this one is inexcusable. They are ridiculously impossible to keep alive, withering away from internal parasites and poor collection practices. I can't remember the last time I saw a healthy one. Bottom line, not only should we not purchase this fish, but we need to tell the LFS to please stop ordering this fish. 

Of your 3 angels, the Lemon Peel is more difficult, but the other 2 are very easy to keep, and the Lemon Peels are not overly difficult if you are careful to select a good fish.

I have said before that a Blue Hippo Tang is stretching the limits, but probably workable.

Everything else looks great.


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## terryap

ok, the powder brown is off the list, did not know this about these fish, I also picked up some formula 2 pellets enhanced with garlic today.


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## Pasfur

terryap said:


> ok, the powder brown is off the list, did not know this about these fish, I also picked up some formula 2 pellets enhanced with garlic today.


Warning: the first time you feed these pellets you will hate them. They tend to sink quickly. The key is to feed them sparingly in an area with low water turbulence.


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## terryap

you are too late....LOL, dropped a couple in, and down to the bottom they went....lol
and they STINK, but the clowns managed to grab a couple, they seem to like them.
Very tiny pellets though.

I also found a NEW LFS, only selling fish....They have kohl tangs regularly, and hippo tangs, also had a powder blue and a blonde naso tang(I believe) nice looking fish

They also had a bicolor angel and pigmy angel...any info on the pigmy angel?


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## terryap

oh, and they had a very cute porcupine puffer with shiny blue eyes


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## Pasfur

The term Pigmy Angel is used to refer to a number of different species. If the fish is a Centropye argi or Centroyge acanthops, then this is an easy species to keep, and great for smaller sized aquariums.


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## terryap

not sure which type it was, but was very dark blue with a lighter yellowish head


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## Pasfur

Take a look here Angels

Sounds like the C. argi.


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## terryap

no, it was one of these 2 I think, had a yellow tail

*Centropyge interruptus* 
*Centropyge joculator*​


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## terryap

but I still really like the Bicolor.


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## terryap

and by the way, the dimension of the 65 gallon are 36 x 18 x 24, I thought it was 18 high, but it is 24 high, and 18 wide


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## Pasfur

terryap said:


> no, it was one of these 2 I think, had a yellow tail
> 
> *Centropyge interruptus*
> *Centropyge joculator*​



If your LFS has a C. joculator I will be in my car driving to Montreal tomorrow! ;-)

Better yet, get a picture posted ASAP and BUY THAT FISH!!!!! Then put it on eBay for a few thousand dollars.


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## terryap

LMAO, well it was only 40$$ so maybe not then, but a great laugh...still laughing


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## terryap

but it was very dark with a yellow tail, so you got me wondering now....dark blue almost black with the yellow tail ....HHHMMMM


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## terryap

also picked up the firefish, very colorful little fish, but then dissapeared...thought he took a jump out of the tank, we looked everywhere, but instead he dug himself a hole under the live rock, and dashes in and out like lightening, he came out at feeding time and we managed to see where he was hiding.....


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## terryap

Another question, how often should I be doing water changes, right now I am doing them about every two weeks about 10-15% water change, but I find this stresses the fish out a little, am I doing it too often?
or is this ok ?


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## Pasfur

Ahh... the controversial water change question. I am half tempted to answer this one in private.

I believe that large water changes are extremely stressful on the fish. This is a personal opinion that I have reached over the last 15-20 years of caring for dozens of different marine systems of various sizes, equipment, and livestock. I believe that any water change that disrupts the flow of the equipment is to large. Very small, very frequent water changes are the ideal method for changing water. 

For example, I generally like to change about 5 gallons per week from my 54 reef. To do so, I keep a 5 gallon bucket of saltwater mixed. I then change just under 1 gallon per day, every day, until the bucket is empty. I am basically doing a 2% water change daily. The process of changing water takes me less than 1 minute, because it is a simple draining of 1 gallon of water, followed by replacing the gallon that I removed. I do it as part of my feeding routine and it is not the least bit complicated or time consuming. The fish have no idea that anything is happening.

The next part of your question is a more loaded topic, which is to ask when you NEED to do a water change. Personally, in my 180 FOWLR, I change a much smaller percentage of the water monthly. I use an oversized skimmer, and monitor alkalinity, calcium, and nitrate closely. I do not become overly concerned for water changes unless I begin to see calcium levels dropping at a rate that is faster than normal. This indicates to me that there is likely a shortage in other buffering ions and that larger volumes of water being changed would be useful. This rarely happens, maybe 1 or 2 times per year. 

The nice thing about calcium testing is that it gives me a heads up on the future trends of alkalinity, and pH. I have found that focusing my water changes and buffering routine around alkalinity, calcium, and nitrate test results gives me a solid method of monitoring the environment and modifying my water change routine as necessary.

For you, I would suggest that you begin changing 2 gallons of water every 3rd day, on your new 65 gallon tank. This should be a very easy task. On your 20 gallon tank, changing 1/2 gallon of water every 3rd day should provide the results you are looking for. Both of these methods result in about 20% total monthly.

{note: evaporation replacement is NOT a water change.}


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## terryap

and, if I am not mistaken, I read in one of your posts you do not use RO water, instead you use tap water and treat it with amquel? I am guessing this method is good also?
it's getting expensive buying RO water every week from the super market.....

What about stress coat? would this be ok to use in tap water as well?


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## Pasfur

On FOWLR systems I use tap water treated with Amquel. I am fortunate that my tap tests very low in Nitrates.

I have not had good luck with Stress Coat. I have found that is causes issues with the skimmer output.


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## terryap

Ok Amquel is readily available to me, I will definately try this and see what the outcome is, 
I never thought of this...Can I take regular tap water and test it for Nitrate with my saltwater test kit?


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## Pasfur

Some test kits are "freshwater/saltwater". Others are saltwater only. I'm not sure what the chemistry is behind the answer to your question. To play it safe, you will probably have to mix up a batch of saltwater and then test it for Nitrate.


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## terryap

Ok well, I will pickup a bottle of amquel and test it out, in the meantime I have done another calcium test and reading is 440, so....seems like it is better than the original 400 reading, getting there....still yet to pick up an alkalinity test kit. but coming soon.

I am also looking at the hydor koralia powerheads, what is your opinion on these??


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## Pasfur

terryap said:


> I am also looking at the hydor koralia powerheads, what is your opinion on these??


I feel like the Hydor's are overrated on most systems. I can see where they would have a nice benefit to a small tank, because the force of the water flow is disbursed, creating a more natural flow. This is also probably beneficial for a reef setting where good water flow is needed but not such strong currents.

Personally, for the money I like the Maxi Jets. They have a very strong and reliable suction cup mounting bracket, and the impellers are very long lived.


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## terryap

yeah, the koralia's are kind of pricey....I may opt for the maxi jet's then, how many do you figure I will need for the 65 gallon? I was figuring on 3, would this be sufficient?
another question is what is the difference in all the salt brands out there on the market?
I am using instant ocean, there are so many, I'd really like to know the difference if any at all ?


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## wake49

I really like Instant Ocean. I buy a five gallon bucket of the stuff every few months. I have tried other brands, and have problems with algae and keeping levels in check. 

My LFS has just got in a newer salt (to his shop) by Brightwell Aquatics called NeoMarine. It looks like really good stuff. If it's not too pricey, I'll probably give this a try on my next purchase of salt...


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## terryap

Thanks, let me know how the new salt works out, guess I will stick with instant ocean for now


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## terryap

Here is another question, how many pounds of sand do you figure I will need to get a 4-6" sand bed in the 65 gallon?


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## Pasfur

I would use 2 MaxiJet 500's.

I use Instant Ocean salt because it mixes well and gives me a good reading on alkalinity and calcium on newly mixed water. I've experimented with other brands and never found exactly what I was looking for, especially with the quality of buffering.

I would start with 80 pounds, and expect to use 100. Depends on the density of the sand. You may just want to order 80 pounds from marco rocks.


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## wake49

terryap said:


> Here is another question, how many pounds of sand do you figure I will need to get a 4-6" sand bed in the 65 gallon?


I know that it took about 15/15lbs bags to fill my 150, so...

I would say that maybe 2 lbs per gallon should get you there. Buy Base Aragonite Sand. I know that the PetSmart in Waterbury CT sells Dry Sand...It's about $20/30 lb bag here in CT.


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## terryap

ok so Christmas bonus is coming this week....here is my buy plan:

-Sand 80 to 100 lbs, as mentioned above
-live rock, about 50 pouds, since I will already be adding the liverock out of my existing tank (around 32 lbs there)
-2 maxi jets as mentioned above
-my ebay protein skimmer is scheduled for delivery on Monday the 23rd
-alkalinity test kit
- UV steriliser *in the next couple of months*
-and a good book on saltwater fish

I already have a master test kit...ammonia, ph, nitrites and nitrates, and I have a calcium test kit.

Am I missing anything here? suggestions??


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## terryap

Here in Montreal, I belive they sell 20 lb bags of aragonite for approx 30$$ will have to shop around for this, because I don't remember the weight, I'll buy for 100 pounds this week, and see how many inches I get out of it, I can always add to it, I am going to aim for about 5 inches total.


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## terryap

ok, so here is my NEW fish wish list:

2 clowns - I already have
1 Firefish - I already have
this is what I would like to add when my tank is ready:

1 yellow eyed kole tang
1 of either of these : lemon peel angel / flame angel / coral beauty angel /Cherub angel- undecided on which one.
1 six line wrasse

not sure if I can put anything else in there, or what other compatible fish would go nicely, or please feel free to suggest a new list or alteration....

let me know what you think...please


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## terryap

In many posts I see the best thickness for a sand bed it 1" or less or 4-6" what is the difference between the 2?


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## Pasfur

terryap said:


> In many posts I see the best thickness for a sand bed it 1" or less or 4-6" what is the difference between the 2?


At 1'' of sand or less, you get the nice appearance of having sand on the bottom of your tank. At depths of greater than1'' but less than 4'', detritus tends to accumulate, causing an increase in phosphates. Some denitrification has been reported at these depths, but not enough to outweigh the risks, in my opinion. 

When the sand reaches depths between 4'' and 6'', denitrification begins to occur at the ideal rate, meaning that bacteria grow which are capable of breaking down Nitrate into Nitrogen Gas. Although detritus may settle onto the sand, the abundance of micro life living in the sand is sufficient to eliminate and detritus buildups. At this level, I have seen my personal aquariums reduce Nitrates to zero.

At levels above 6'' you are entering a different topic entirely. There have been many articles written on DEEP sand beds utilizing plenum systems, with sand reaching as deep at 10''. I see no reason for this level of sand, given that 4'' to 6'' depths have always worked well for me. I suggest stopping at 6'', because going over 6'' requires the use of a plenum under the sand bed to ensure that water continues to circulate throughout the sand, without a buildup of hydrogen sulfide.

This is a very controversial topic, and I speak highly from my personal experience with deep sand beds. There are many different methods that present themselves on forums and the greater hobby has yet to establish any consistency in their recommendations.

I think your fish list is good.


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## terryap

Thanks 
so you recommend either then? 1" or less and 4-6" ? just trying to calculate the cost in the sand, I may opt for the 1" sand bed and spend more on the live rock. I'll be buying later this week so am trying to decide on the best, but within reason of $$$


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## Pasfur

I went with 1'' in my 180 to save money. So yes, money is always a consideration.


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## terryap

Great thanks! and I saw in your posts! loved your 180 build, I will put extra cash on live rock instead.


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## aunt kymmie

Your tank is looking great. When do you expect to add your additional fish?


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## terryap

This is only my 20 gallon no more fish for this one, the 65 gallon will be up and running this coming weekend....but will wait a little while before transferring the fish, then the additions to follow!!!! 
I will start posting pictures once the tank was water in it....LOL


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## aunt kymmie

Looking forward to the pics!


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## terryap

If anyone has a chance can you please read over the following list and let me know if you think I am missing anything, or any suggestions:

-sand
-live rock, about 50 pounds, since I will already be adding the liverock out of my existing tank (around 32 lbs there)
-2 maxi jets 
-my ebay protein skimmer is scheduled for delivery on Monday the 23rd
-alkalinity test kit
- UV steriliser *in the next couple of months*
-and a good book on saltwater fish

I already have a master test kit...ammonia, ph, nitrites and nitrates, and I have a calcium test kit.

Am I missing anything here? suggestions??


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## terryap

*New power head*

ok, so here is one of the power heads I bought today, the other one is coming sunday, going to look for a maxi jet....what are your opinions on this one:


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## Pasfur

I am not familiar with the SEIO brand. It looks like an oscillating output, which is nice.


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## terryap

I just need a small maxit Jet to go with it, I am figuring on about 2000 gph total, this one is 1500 gph, does this sound about right for current?
and of course I am behind schedule, but do have most of the supplies...but again am not in a rush


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## Pasfur

1500 gallons per hour. WOW. That is some intense current.

I think adding another power head, preferably one to blow across the substrate, would be ideal. Something will a bit less flow. The MJ500 would be great.


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## terryap

I got a good deal on it, supposed to be very hardy.
I was figuring on MJ500, and figured I should be good for current with the 2 combined.
I also bought the reef sand, salt, and skimmer is here but is in the process of clearing customs 
I tried arguing with UPS about their ridiculous brokerage fees, BUT, am too busy to customs clear it myself.
so should arrive by Thursday.
I also found a supplier for Live rock in Halifax, looks like a good deal, 3.90/LB with shipping, seems like a good deal:

 *Live Rock for Saltwater Aquarium*
Beautiful branching Live Rock. Fully cured, tank-ready (simply add it to your marine tank). Aquacultured (reefs were not harmed in the production of this rock). Unique 2-step process results in ...


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## terryap

Another piece of advice needed here, I have a freind who just gave me about 35 lbs of live rock, but it has been out out water for about 9 months, question is how long do you figure I have to cure it?
really nice looking rock, will post some pics!!


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## terryap

oh and yes, I will be adding cured live rock as well, but figured this is a great base, nothing beats FREE!


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## terryap

Ok, filled up the tank with the salt and water, and letting it mix in the tank with my power head.....I figure the sand next? once the water is mixed, and then live rock, does this sound right?


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## terryap

or should it be live rock first and then sand?


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## terryap

and let me rephrase when I say my freind gave me live rock that has been out of saltwater for about 9 months, I realize this is now dead rock, or dry rock, my question is appox how long before it will "come to life"
with of course some cured live rock mixed in?


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## terryap

have posted one pic so far....more to follow, what a job filling it up...had to get the kids to help...lol


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## Pasfur

The "dry" rock should begin to show signs of life in 6 to 10 weeks.

I personally add sand first, but many people add it last. Personal preference.


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## terryap

was a personal "gut feeling" to add the sand first....will do so once the water clears from the salt and the level and temp is good


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## Pasfur

Isn't it time to post some PICTURES!!!!!!


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## terryap

I did...one lousy one.....LOL in the pic section


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## terryap

ok, 2 pics now, more to come tomorrow, will add the sand


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## terryap

I still had that piece of live rock that had a ton of zoanthyds, and a ton of aptasia on it, it's been out of water for about a month, i gave it a soaking and added it in the new 65 G, the water smells this morning, I am assuming this is the die off......question is, If I add some live rock from my other tank, won't it die in the new tank?


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## Pasfur

If your ammonia levels is elevated then you will get some die off, yes. That being said, i would add the live rock now. We are looking at long term goals, not short term inconveniences.


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## terryap

Ok, will add, and post more pictures


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## terryap

another question, will my fish in the 20 gallon be ok without as much live rock? until the 65G is ready?


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## terryap

Protein skimmer FINALLY being delivered to me at work tomorrow.., will post more pics tomorrow night


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## wake49

terryap said:


> another question, will my fish in the 20 gallon be ok without as much live rock? until the 65G is ready?


It shouldn't be too long right? They should be fine if you are transferring them over soon. Just keep an eye on the water in the 20, as the Live Rock is your major means of filtration, and you might start seeing some levels start to rise. Are there corals in the twenty? This might make it a little more difficult as they are more sensitive than fish.


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## terryap

just a couple of mushrooms and very very little zoa's, GOT THE PROTEIN SKIMMER....FINALLY!!!!


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## Pasfur

:blueyay: Skimmer time! Where are those pics? :dunno:


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## terryap

coming in just a few mins


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## terryap

ok finally bought the alkalinity test kit, so here is what I have

ammonia test
nitrite test
nitrate test
calcium test
and alkalinity test

I am not missing any tests right?


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## wake49

pH?


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## terryap

have it, sorry forgot that one....LOL


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## terryap

ammonina, nitrite, nitrate and PH were in the master kit, bought additional calcium and alkalinity test kits.


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## wake49

What brand are the Cal and Alk tests?


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## terryap

Here are the calcium and alkalinity tests:


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## terryap

and an API master test kit


----------



## terryap

Ok, ammonia finally at 0 reading tonight, nitrites still at 0, had a slight reading when I first started the tank...strange no?


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## Pasfur

Not all that unusual. You're set.


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## terryap

Set for what? :-D


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## terryap

also transferred another piece of live rock from the 20 G, just one other big piece left (about 12 lbs) to transfer, waiting to transfer it until I can transfer my 2 clowns, looks like the firefish took a hike.....so only the 2 clowns, hermit crabs, shrimp, snails, and a couple of mushroom left to transfer. Can't wait to see them in their bigger new home !


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## terryap

Finally received the Hydor Koralia 4 today!!!!


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## Pasfur

Where are you at with fish in the 65? Are all the fish moved?


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## terryap

all moved, doing great so far, soaking food in Garlic guard everyday just to be safe


----------

